From cubexyz at gmail.com  Tue May  5 06:23:30 2015
From: cubexyz at gmail.com (Mark Longridge)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 16:23:30 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Had a crack at assembling the Unix v1 kernel
Message-ID: <CADxT5N4dN2VNd5npqWQ_1Gf75WiMaRxP7e_RKP+NxOzTSGJt2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, I looked around for the instructions on how to assemble the Unix
v1 kernel and couldn't find anything so I tried:

as u0.s u1.s u2.s u3.s u4.s u5.s u6.s u7.s u8.s u9.s ux.s

and that made a.out and I stripped it and it looked like it was around
the same size as /etc/core (it was 16400 bytes rather than 16448 for
some reason).

I'm not sure where Unix v1 is loading the kernel from. I'm guessing
it's /etc/core and if that's the case then I must have been successful
building the kernel. In all the other versions of Unix there was
always a file like 'unix' in the root directory but I guess Unix v1
was different?

Mark


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May  5 06:44:45 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  4 May 2015 16:44:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Had a crack at assembling the Unix v1 kernel
Message-ID: <20150504204445.5859E18C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mark Longridge <cubexyz at gmail.com>

    > I'm not sure where Unix v1 is loading the kernel from. .. In all the
    > other versions of Unix there was always a file like 'unix' in the root
    > directory but I guess Unix v1 was different?

I don't know much about the other versions, but it would all depend on what's
in the bootstrap (usually contained in block 0 of drive 0, at least on older
11's). In V6, the bootstrap in block 0 prompts for a file name, and when that
is entered, it loads that file into memory and starts it. (It doesn't have
to be in the root directory, IIRC - I'm pretty sure the bootstrap will accept
full path names.)

How did you create a V1 filesystem? (I don't know, BTW, what they look like -
is that documented anywhere?) It's probably not the same layout as the V6
(which I think is the same as V5).

	Noel


From dave at horsfall.org  Tue May  5 07:04:17 2015
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 07:04:17 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Had a crack at assembling the Unix v1 kernel
In-Reply-To: <20150504204445.5859E18C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150504204445.5859E18C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.11.1505050700280.58219@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 4 May 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> I don't know much about the other versions, but it would all depend on 
> what's in the bootstrap (usually contained in block 0 of drive 0, at 
> least on older 11's). In V6, the bootstrap in block 0 prompts for a file 
> name, and when that is entered, it loads that file into memory and 
> starts it. (It doesn't have to be in the root directory, IIRC - I'm 
> pretty sure the bootstrap will accept full path names.)

I'm pretty sure that it didn't have the full namei() functionality, so all 
files had to be in the root directory.  Of course, I've been wrong 
before...

We were constantly writing boot blocks to get the mostest out of the
leastest, so I suppose it was possible.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)   "Those who don't understand security will suffer."
http://www.horsfall.org/spam.html (and check the home page whilst you're there)


From wkt at tuhs.org  Tue May  5 07:55:49 2015
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 07:55:49 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Had a crack at assembling the Unix v1 kernel
In-Reply-To: <CADxT5N4dN2VNd5npqWQ_1Gf75WiMaRxP7e_RKP+NxOzTSGJt2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADxT5N4dN2VNd5npqWQ_1Gf75WiMaRxP7e_RKP+NxOzTSGJt2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150504215548.GA3824@www.oztivo.net>

On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 04:23:30PM -0400, Mark Longridge wrote:
> Ok, I looked around for the instructions on how to assemble the Unix
> v1 kernel and couldn't find anything so I tried:
> 
> as u0.s u1.s u2.s u3.s u4.s u5.s u6.s u7.s u8.s u9.s ux.s

Have a look here: https://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/

This is the effort to recover the v1 kernel and make a working system.

Cheers, Warren


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May  5 07:48:19 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  4 May 2015 17:48:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Had a crack at assembling the Unix v1 kernel
Message-ID: <20150504214819.5EAC618C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org>

    >> In V6, the bootstrap in block 0 prompts for a file name, and when that
    >> is entered, it loads that file into memory and starts it. (It doesn't
    >> have to be in the root directory, IIRC - I'm pretty sure the bootstrap
    >> will accept full path names.)

    > I'm pretty sure that it didn't have the full namei() functionality, so
    > all files had to be in the root directory.

It depends on what you mean by the first "it" above - if you meant 'V6', then
no. From the Distribution V6's /src/mdec/fsboot.s:
		
  / read in path name
  / breaking on '/' into 14 ch names

The process of breaking the name up into segments, and then later finding
each name in the appropriate directory, can be seen. The code is kind of
obscure, but if you look at the RL bootstap I dis-assembled:

  http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/unix/rlboot.s

it's pretty much the same code, and a little better commented in the 'read
in directories' part.

	Noel


From cubexyz at gmail.com  Tue May  5 10:29:34 2015
From: cubexyz at gmail.com (Mark Longridge)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2015 20:29:34 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Had a crack at assembling the Unix v1 kernel
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.11.1505050700280.58219@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <20150504204445.5859E18C0DB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <alpine.BSF.2.11.1505050700280.58219@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CADxT5N5oZEeZrSv-SRjmAL843COxuhzuDYucKFUcuiJDNO9+xQ@mail.gmail.com>

I just tried it with my Unix v5 and v6, never touched the boot block
in either case.

v5: will not accept the kernel filename in a subdirectory.

v6: accepted the kernel filename in a subdirectory.

Mark

On 5/4/15, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 4 May 2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>
>> I don't know much about the other versions, but it would all depend on
>> what's in the bootstrap (usually contained in block 0 of drive 0, at
>> least on older 11's). In V6, the bootstrap in block 0 prompts for a file
>> name, and when that is entered, it loads that file into memory and
>> starts it. (It doesn't have to be in the root directory, IIRC - I'm
>> pretty sure the bootstrap will accept full path names.)
>
> I'm pretty sure that it didn't have the full namei() functionality, so all
> files had to be in the root directory.  Of course, I've been wrong
> before...
>
> We were constantly writing boot blocks to get the mostest out of the
> leastest, so I suppose it was possible.
>
> --
> Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)   "Those who don't understand security will
> suffer."
> http://www.horsfall.org/spam.html (and check the home page whilst you're
> there)
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May  5 22:24:33 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  5 May 2015 08:24:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Had a crack at assembling the Unix v1 kernel
Message-ID: <20150505122433.D74B118C0C5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mark Longridge

    > I'm not sure where Unix v1 is loading the kernel from. 

    > From: Warren Toomey

    > Have a look here: https://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/

Thanks for the pointer! From poking around there, it looks like V1 had
special 'cold boot' and 'warm boot' disk partitions.

I wonder why they lost the 'warm boot' capability in later versions? Maybe it
became reliable enough that the extra complexity of supporting it wasn't
worth it?

	Noel


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Wed May  6 03:35:48 2015
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ronald Natalie)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2015 13:35:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Had a crack at assembling the Unix v1 kernel
In-Reply-To: <20150504214819.5EAC618C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150504214819.5EAC618C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <68A00AF8-7201-469E-9A0A-F82877E1B20F@ronnatalie.com>

I find it amusing that the listing includes a copy of the filesystem as a bunch of assembler directives.



From arnold at skeeve.com  Mon May 11 18:20:40 2015
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:20:40 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] reading 9 track tapes?
Message-ID: <201505110820.t4B8Kec5013263@skeeve.com>

Hi.

Can anyone still read 9 track tapes? We just uncovered two that date
from my wife's time in grad school, circa 1989 - 1990.  They would
be tar tapes.

Thanks!

Arnold


From arnold at skeeve.com  Mon May 11 18:19:32 2015
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 11:19:32 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] Are the O'Reilly X books worth hanging onto?
Message-ID: <201505110819.t4B8JWc0013238@skeeve.com>

Hello All.

I have a full set of the O'Reilly X reference manuals - Volumes 1-5, 6a
and 6b. Also "The X Window System In A Nutshell". These are all from
like the mid-1990s.

Are they worth hanging onto?

If not, does anyone on this list want them?  If so, I'll send them for
the cost of postage from Israel.

Thanks,

Arnold


From aps at ieee.org  Tue May 12 01:07:04 2015
From: aps at ieee.org (Armando Stettner)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 08:07:04 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] reading 9 track tapes?
In-Reply-To: <201505110820.t4B8Kec5013263@skeeve.com>
References: <201505110820.t4B8Kec5013263@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <B5DE3D31-9C3D-4D9C-807A-58B1F0197C43@ieee.org>

How about the computer museum in Mountain View or Paul Allen's computer museum (with many working antiques) in Seattle?

   aps

Sent from my iPad

> On May 11, 2015, at 01:20, Aharon Robbins <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi.
> 
> Can anyone still read 9 track tapes? We just uncovered two that date
> from my wife's time in grad school, circa 1989 - 1990.  They would
> be tar tapes.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Arnold
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 


From dave at horsfall.org  Tue May 12 02:35:46 2015
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 02:35:46 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Are the O'Reilly X books worth hanging onto?
In-Reply-To: <201505110819.t4B8JWc0013238@skeeve.com>
References: <201505110819.t4B8JWc0013238@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.11.1505120233220.54716@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 11 May 2015, Aharon Robbins wrote:

> I have a full set of the O'Reilly X reference manuals - Volumes 1-5, 6a 
> and 6b. Also "The X Window System In A Nutshell". These are all from 
> like the mid-1990s.
> 
> Are they worth hanging onto?

In general I've found the O'Reilly books to be superb, but the "X" ones 
will be a little dated by now (I once had that set).

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)   "Those who don't understand security will suffer."
http://www.horsfall.org/spam.html (and check the home page whilst you're there)


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May 12 03:18:56 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 13:18:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] reading 9 track tapes?
Message-ID: <20150511171856.A757518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Aharon Robbins

    > Can anyone still read 9 track tapes? We just un-covered two that date
    > from my wife's time in grad school, circa 1989 - 1990. They would be
    > tar tapes.

That old, the issue is not going to be the format (TAR is still grokkable),
but the physical condition of the tapes; that old, they might have issues
with shedding of oxide, etc (which a heat soak can mostly cure). If you
really want them read, I would recommend a specialist in reading old tapes;
it will cost, but if you really want the data... I have used Chuck Guzis, in
Washington (state) in the US.

	Noel


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue May 12 03:35:41 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2015 12:35:41 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] reading 9 track tapes?
In-Reply-To: <20150511171856.A757518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20150511171856.A757518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20150511184850.0904214DCB@www.oztivo.net>

At 12:18 PM 5/11/2015, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>    > From: Aharon Robbins
>
>    > Can anyone still read 9 track tapes? We just un-covered two that date
>    > from my wife's time in grad school, circa 1989 - 1990. They would be
>    > tar tapes.
>
>That old, the issue is not going to be the format (TAR is still grokkable),
>but the physical condition of the tapes; that old, they might have issues
>with shedding of oxide, etc (which a heat soak can mostly cure). If you
>really want them read, I would recommend a specialist in reading old tapes;
>it will cost, but if you really want the data... I have used Chuck Guzis, in
>Washington (state) in the US.

Oh, that tape may be just fine if it was kept in office conditions.

Chuck Guzis is at http://sydex.com/ .  He'd do a fine job.

There may be others at the Classic Computer Collector mailing
list who could assist.

- John



From noufal at nibrahim.net.in  Tue May 12 15:46:29 2015
From: noufal at nibrahim.net.in (Noufal Ibrahim KV)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 11:16:29 +0530
Subject: [TUHS] reading 9 track tapes?
In-Reply-To: <20150511184850.0904214DCB@www.oztivo.net> (John Foust's message
 of "Mon, 11 May 2015 12:35:41 -0500")
References: <20150511171856.A757518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150511184850.0904214DCB@www.oztivo.net>
Message-ID: <87bnhq73gq.fsf@nibrahim.net.in>

On Mon, May 11 2015, John Foust wrote:


[...]

> Oh, that tape may be just fine if it was kept in office conditions.
>
> Chuck Guzis is at http://sydex.com/ .  He'd do a fine job.
>
> There may be others at the Classic Computer Collector mailing list who
> could assist.

[...]

The Internet Archive[1] has a lot of hardware to extract information
from old media though I don't know if all of it is available.



Footnotes: 
[1]  http://archive.org

-- 
Cordially,
Noufal
http://nibrahim.net.in


From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed May 13 00:02:10 2015
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2015 09:02:10 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] reading 9 track tapes?
In-Reply-To: <87bnhq73gq.fsf@nibrahim.net.in>
References: <20150511171856.A757518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150511184850.0904214DCB@www.oztivo.net>
 <87bnhq73gq.fsf@nibrahim.net.in>
Message-ID: <20150512140244.165C61538E@www.oztivo.net>

At 12:46 AM 5/12/2015, Noufal Ibrahim KV wrote:
>The Internet Archive[1] has a lot of hardware to extract information
>from old media though I don't know if all of it is available.

Yes, I'm sure they do - as does the Computer History Museum, or many
of the other computer museums, and a fair number of mailing-list houses,
as well as many collectors, all still have functioning 9-tracks.
There's a few on eBay at any given moment.

A few years ago I travelled to Bettendorf, Iowa, to drop off two failed
9-track drives I had.  A fellow there (http://www.comco-inc.com/) has 
one of the few - perhaps only? - remaining 9-track service and repair 
businesses.  At that time he was hoping to down-size and retire, and 
was dreaming of finding someone to take over the business.  It sounded 
like he had a bunch of 88780-class 9-tracks that would go to the 
scrapper.  At the time, he offered to sell me a working 88780-style 
drive for about $1800.

He said most people just want to read old tape data, not write
it, so he wished for a new method to be able to read 7- and 9-track
tapes just to recover data.  One can imagine a flexible read head,
a digitizer, and the rest is software.  Indeed, that's what a few
people have made as an experiment.  

There's still some equipment and processes that require a real drive 
and that do not work with tape emulators.  He said there's a company 
out there that makes a modern 7-track drive for the seismic end of 
the oil industry at $50K a pop.  He repaired and sold many 9914-style
drives because they handled a longer block length needed by some
oil industry applications.  Another remaining market was a few 
specific models of 9-track that work with old Alcatel phone switches.

- John



From meillo at marmaro.de  Mon May 18 04:00:42 2015
From: meillo at marmaro.de (markus schnalke)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 20:00:42 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Questions about the history of cut(1)
Message-ID: <1Yu2rj-41H-00@marmaro.de>

Hoi.

What started as the plan to write a short portrait of cut(1)
for a free german online magazine (translation to English is
not done yet) became a closer look at the history of cut(1).
Well, the topic got me hooked at some point. The text is still
only about eight pages long and far from scientific quality,
but it features some facts not found in Wikipedia. ;-)

So, let me come to my questions.

1) The oldest version of cut that I found is this one in System III.
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=SysIII/usr/src/cmd
(The file date says 1980-04-11.) As the sccsid reads version 1.5,
there must be older code. How can I find it? Is there a story of
how cut appeared for the first time?

2) As far as I found out, POSIX.2-1992 introduced the byte mode
(-b) and added multi-byte support for the character mode. Is
this correct?

3) Old BSD sources reference POSIX Draft 9 (which, it seems,
they implement) but lack multi-byte support and the byte mode.
They also support decreasing lists, which, they state, POSIX
Draft 9 would not.
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=4.3BSD-Reno/src/usr.bin/cut/cut.c
The only POSIX.2 Draft I have access to is Draft 11.2.
http://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/doc/posix/p1003.2/d11.2/all.ps
It does specify the multi-byte stuff and does also allow
decreasing lists. Hence, it appears that these things were
added somewhen between Draft 9 and Draft 11.2. Does anyone
know details?

It would be great, if you can give me some pointers for
further research or even share some cut-stories from the
good old days. :-)


meillo


P.S.
In case you understand German, feel free to have a look at the
current version of the text: http://hg.marmaro.de/docs/cut/file/
I welcome your comments, but bear with me, the text issn't meant
to become a doctoral thesis; I just want to write it for fun and
to learn about the historical background.


From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Mon May 18 20:36:42 2015
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 06:36:42 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Questions about the history of cut(1)
Message-ID: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>

I believe cut/paste originated in PWB Unix, but I can't recall who
wrote it.

Doug


From cowan at mercury.ccil.org  Mon May 18 21:49:40 2015
From: cowan at mercury.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 07:49:40 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Questions about the history of cut(1)
In-Reply-To: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
References: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Message-ID: <20150518114940.GA14275@mercury.ccil.org>

Doug McIlroy scripsit:

> I believe cut/paste originated in PWB Unix, but I can't recall who
> wrote it.

Huh.  I didn't know paste(1) existed; I've always used pr -m to laminate
files (with appropriate options to shut off the unwanted formatting).

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
There is / One art / No more / No less
To do / All things / With art- / -Lessness          --Piet Hein


From meillo at marmaro.de  Tue May 19 00:04:38 2015
From: meillo at marmaro.de (markus schnalke)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 16:04:38 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Questions about the history of cut(1)
In-Reply-To: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
References: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Message-ID: <1YuLeo-1Qx-00@marmaro.de>

[2015-05-18 06:36] Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu>
>
> I believe cut/paste originated in PWB Unix, but I can't recall who
> wrote it.

Thanks for your reply.

I checked the PWB code of bostic and spencer ...
	http://minnie.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/usdl/
	http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=PWB1
... but couldn't find any signs of cut or paste there.


meillo


From akosela at andykosela.com  Tue May 19 01:01:02 2015
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 10:01:02 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Questions about the history of cut(1)
In-Reply-To: <1YuLeo-1Qx-00@marmaro.de>
References: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
 <1YuLeo-1Qx-00@marmaro.de>
Message-ID: <CALMnNGhuHKHooQre4oG6v2dnu6PWqUncSouSeBSirLAYx6fqSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Monday, May 18, 2015, markus schnalke <meillo at marmaro.de> wrote:

> [2015-05-18 06:36] Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu <javascript:;>>
> >
> > I believe cut/paste originated in PWB Unix, but I can't recall who
> > wrote it.
>
> Thanks for your reply.
>
> I checked the PWB code of bostic and spencer ...
>         http://minnie.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/usdl/
>         http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=PWB1
> ... but couldn't find any signs of cut or paste there.
>

FreeBSD man page states it originated in System III.  If you browse the
code of it, it is certainly there, but System III was a mix of various
versions, including PWB/UNIX.

Anyway, a very interesting research subject.  Keep going!

--Andy
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From clemc at ccc.com  Tue May 19 01:06:59 2015
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 11:06:59 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Questions about the history of cut(1)
In-Reply-To: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
References: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2O5xQigVpck734bopOa7a0hS8mgw=G0gwR064Ywa8PE0w@mail.gmail.com>

I thought it came from USG, as it was definitely in PWB 3.0 [which was
"rebranded" as System III post break-up], I think it may have been in PWB
2.0.   Mashey might remember.   I'll check any doc I have at home tonight,
but do not think I still have PWB 2.0 bits anywhere.  I think Warren has a
TAR image from Henry of the PWB 1.0 which to check.

Clem

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 6:36 AM, Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> I believe cut/paste originated in PWB Unix, but I can't recall who
> wrote it.
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Tue May 19 01:20:55 2015
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 11:20:55 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Questions about the history of cut(1)
In-Reply-To: <CALMnNGhuHKHooQre4oG6v2dnu6PWqUncSouSeBSirLAYx6fqSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
 <1YuLeo-1Qx-00@marmaro.de>
 <CALMnNGhuHKHooQre4oG6v2dnu6PWqUncSouSeBSirLAYx6fqSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OCXv-5=ZqgjY-oh6E3naMXa+M0ufwctjr_JiuVXXaoTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 11:01 AM, Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com>
wrote:

> System III was a mix of various versions, including PWB/UNIX.
>

​System III was originally called PWB 3.0 and early distributions from AT&T
has the covers as PWB 3.0 on it.

The name "System III" was a rebranding.   At the time, AT&T wanted to make
a run at the enterprise computer business and marketing types did not think
the PWB moniker was a good idea when trying to sell it.

You are correct, the PWB 3.0 took a number things from a lot of different
places, including the Columbus guys [who gave use the shmat() and ip stuff,
as well a Napierville, Whippany etc.], much less what came from Research.

Research Seventh Edition kernel went out to the operating companies in PWB
2.0, so by the time 3.0 was done, the v7's kernel basis was already
established.  It was not generally available outside the Bell System, but
some people did have it - probably from the OYOC types who brought it with
them for some feature or another.

Clem
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From random832 at fastmail.us  Tue May 19 01:13:06 2015
From: random832 at fastmail.us (random832 at fastmail.us)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 11:13:06 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Questions about the history of cut(1)
In-Reply-To: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
References: <201505181036.t4IAagZS031943@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Message-ID: <1431961986.1331476.271734905.2B816C6E@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Mon, May 18, 2015, at 06:36, Doug McIlroy wrote:
> I believe cut/paste originated in PWB Unix, but I can't recall who
> wrote it.

Who or what is the GWRL referenced in the comments?

/* cut : cut and paste columns of a table (projection of a relation) 
(GWRL) */
/* paste: concatenate corresponding lines of each file in parallel.
Release 1.4 (GWRL) */


From dds at aueb.gr  Tue May 19 06:07:53 2015
From: dds at aueb.gr (Diomidis Spinellis)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2015 23:07:53 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the MSR
 '15 Best Data Showcase Award
Message-ID: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr>

Since early 2013 I've occasionally asked this list for help, and shared
the progress regarding the creation of a Unix Git repository containing
Unix releases from the 1970s until today [1].

On Saturday I presented this work [2, 3] at MSR '15: The 12th Working
Conference on Mining Software Repositories, and on Sunday I discussed
the work with the participants over a poster [4] (complete with commits
shown in a teletype (lcase) and a VT-220 font).  Amazingly, the work
received the conference's "Best Data Showcase Award", for which I'm
obviously very happy.

I'd like to thank again the many individuals who contributed to the
effort. Brian W. Kernighan, Doug McIlroy, and Arnold D. Robbins helped
with Bell Labs login identifiers. Clem Cole, Era Eriksson, Mary Ann
Horton, Kirk McKusick, Jeremy C. Reed, Ingo Schwarze, and Anatole Shaw
helped with BSD login identifiers. The BSD SCCS import code is based on
work by H. Merijn Brand and Jonathan Gray.

A lot of work remains to be done.  Given that the build process is
shared as open source code, it is easy to contribute additions and fixes
through GitHub pull requests on the build software repository [5], but
if you feel uncomfortable with that, just send me email. The most useful
community contribution would be to increase the coverage of imported
snapshot files that are attributed to a specific author. Currently,
about 90 thousand files (out of a total of 160 thousand) are getting
assigned an author through a default rule. Similarly, there are about
250 authors (primarily early FreeBSD ones) for which only the identifier
is known. Both are listed in the build repository's unmatched directory
[6], and contributions are welcomed (start with early editions; I can
propagate from there). Most importantly, more branches of open source
systems can be added, such as NetBSD OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, and illumos.
Ideally, current right holders of other important historical Unix
releases, such as System III, System V, NeXTSTEP, and SunOS, will
release their systems under a license that would allow their
incorporation into this repository.  If you know people who can help in
this, please nudge them.

--Diomidis

[1] https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo
[2]
http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/conf/2015-MSR-Unix-History/html/Spi15c.html
(HTML)
[3]
http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/conf/2015-MSR-Unix-History/html/Spi15c.pdf
(PDF)
[4]
http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/conf/2015-MSR-Unix-History/html/poster.pdf
(105MB)
[5] https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-make
[6]
https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-make/tree/master/src/unmatched



From tih at hamartun.priv.no  Tue May 19 19:24:56 2015
From: tih at hamartun.priv.no (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:24:56 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
	MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> (Diomidis Spinellis's message of "Mon, 
 18 May 2015 23:07:53 +0300")
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr>
Message-ID: <m2twv8j4wn.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>

Diomidis Spinellis <dds at aueb.gr> writes:

> Since early 2013 I've occasionally asked this list for help, and shared
> the progress regarding the creation of a Unix Git repository containing
> Unix releases from the 1970s until today [1].

This is so cool!  Great work!  :)

> Most importantly, more branches of open source systems can be added,
> such as NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, and illumos.

Getting early NetBSD in there would help complete the continuity, seeing
as NetBSD was a fork of 386BSD, and FreeBSD a later fork of NetBSD.

-tih
-- 
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"


From fair-tuhs at netbsd.org  Tue May 19 20:04:16 2015
From: fair-tuhs at netbsd.org (Erik E. Fair)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 03:04:16 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
	MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <m2twv8j4wn.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr>
Message-ID: <236.1432029856@cesium.clock.org>

Congratulations!

The NetBSD source repository has not changed source control systems since project inception - we're still using CVS, and the whole thing can be browsed at anoncvs.netbsd.org. A bunch of stuff is now "in the attic" (nominally "deleted" from the repository, but so far as I know that just means it's not fetched by default with an unadorned "get" command - it's still in the repository archive).

The history you're looking to collect is available for copy any time.

	Erik <fair at netbsd.org> (among other addresses)


From dugo at xs4all.nl  Tue May 19 23:19:48 2015
From: dugo at xs4all.nl (Jacob Goense)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:19:48 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <236.1432029856@cesium.clock.org>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <236.1432029856@cesium.clock.org>
Message-ID: <e8d26052f0632b48fe8c4398ca110f08@xs4all.nl>

On 2015-05-19 12:04, Erik E. Fair wrote:
> The NetBSD source repository has not changed source control systems
> since project inception - we're still using CVS, and the whole thing
> can be browsed at anoncvs.netbsd.org. A bunch of stuff is now "in the
> attic" (nominally "deleted" from the repository, but so far as I know
> that just means it's not fetched by default with an unadorned "get"
> command - it's still in the repository archive).
> 
> The history you're looking to collect is available for copy any time.

There is a pile of "revision #.# intentionally removed" in there. See
http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2006/09/14/netbsd_future.html?page=2
for Hannum's story behind it.

Deadly quote "and nobody cares about that early code history any more
--so this is all water under the bridge."

They are available in a manilla folder through a coughing man in a
raincoat if you know in which parking garage you have to look. Not
sure what the consequences are if they appear as a pull request for
dspinellis's truly awesome unix-history-repo.


/Jacob


From sdaoden at yandex.com  Tue May 19 23:48:05 2015
From: sdaoden at yandex.com (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 15:48:05 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <e8d26052f0632b48fe8c4398ca110f08@xs4all.nl>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <236.1432029856@cesium.clock.org>
 <e8d26052f0632b48fe8c4398ca110f08@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <20150519134805.5XPp-9sfoaQCoUSbLHeU@yandex.com>

Jacob Goense <dugo at xs4all.nl> wrote:
 |On 2015-05-19 12:04, Erik E. Fair wrote:
 |> The NetBSD source repository has not changed source control systems
 |> since project inception - we're still using CVS, and the whole thing
 |> can be browsed at anoncvs.netbsd.org. A bunch of stuff is now "in the
 |> attic" (nominally "deleted" from the repository, but so far as I know
 |> that just means it's not fetched by default with an unadorned "get"
 |> command - it's still in the repository archive).
 |> 
 |> The history you're looking to collect is available for copy any time.
 |
 |There is a pile of "revision #.# intentionally removed" in there. See
 |http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2006/09/14/netbsd_future.html?page=2
 |for Hannum's story behind it.
 |
 |Deadly quote "and nobody cares about that early code history any more
 |--so this is all water under the bridge."
 |
 |They are available in a manilla folder through a coughing man in a
 |raincoat if you know in which parking garage you have to look. Not
 |sure what the consequences are if they appear as a pull request for
 |dspinellis's truly awesome unix-history-repo.

I also thought that was bad advise – Jörg Sonnenberger of NetBSD
converted the repository to Fossil.  I have lost that address; he
automatically converts _that_ to git(1) on github [1], which
i track myself, however.

Note that he is the one who is developing the used converter, and
that in turn had some errors in the past, resulting in history to
become invalid.  That didn't happen for quite a while now (afaik!)
but since it was very weird about two years ago and occasionally
happened still last year one possibly should ask him before
integrating all those millions of objects into such a large
repository.

  [1] https://github.com/jsonn/src

--steffen


From spedraja at gmail.com  Wed May 20 00:36:14 2015
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 16:36:14 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <20150519134805.5XPp-9sfoaQCoUSbLHeU@yandex.com>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <236.1432029856@cesium.clock.org>
 <e8d26052f0632b48fe8c4398ca110f08@xs4all.nl>
 <20150519134805.5XPp-9sfoaQCoUSbLHeU@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF-5F7vfMd2DRiU-xrMtBfk2o0+M4N45VbAZLLvOcNtKHw@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations !

Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Grüße | Salutations
​
-- 
*Sergio Pedraja*
-- 
mobile: +34-699-996568
twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja
--
http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja
http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja
http://spedraja.wordpress.com
https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja <http://spedraja.wordpress.com/>
-----
No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que está viéndolo todo


2015-05-19 15:48 GMT+02:00 Steffen Nurpmeso <sdaoden at yandex.com>:

> Jacob Goense <dugo at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>  |On 2015-05-19 12:04, Erik E. Fair wrote:
>  |> The NetBSD source repository has not changed source control systems
>  |> since project inception - we're still using CVS, and the whole thing
>  |> can be browsed at anoncvs.netbsd.org. A bunch of stuff is now "in the
>  |> attic" (nominally "deleted" from the repository, but so far as I know
>  |> that just means it's not fetched by default with an unadorned "get"
>  |> command - it's still in the repository archive).
>  |>
>  |> The history you're looking to collect is available for copy any time.
>  |
>  |There is a pile of "revision #.# intentionally removed" in there. See
>  |http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/bsd/2006/09/14/netbsd_future.html?page=2
>  |for Hannum's story behind it.
>  |
>  |Deadly quote "and nobody cares about that early code history any more
>  |--so this is all water under the bridge."
>  |
>  |They are available in a manilla folder through a coughing man in a
>  |raincoat if you know in which parking garage you have to look. Not
>  |sure what the consequences are if they appear as a pull request for
>  |dspinellis's truly awesome unix-history-repo.
>
> I also thought that was bad advise – Jörg Sonnenberger of NetBSD
> converted the repository to Fossil.  I have lost that address; he
> automatically converts _that_ to git(1) on github [1], which
> i track myself, however.
>
> Note that he is the one who is developing the used converter, and
> that in turn had some errors in the past, resulting in history to
> become invalid.  That didn't happen for quite a while now (afaik!)
> but since it was very weird about two years ago and occasionally
> happened still last year one possibly should ask him before
> integrating all those millions of objects into such a large
> repository.
>
>   [1] https://github.com/jsonn/src
>
> --steffen
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Wed May 20 00:53:54 2015
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 10:53:54 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NRLhTcR05eLZcS1ZNkBgZa-BTLrH8aw9KTppRJjyrMAw@mail.gmail.com>

Diomidis,

What a wonderful gift to the community.   Thank you.

Clem Cole

On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Diomidis Spinellis <dds at aueb.gr> wrote:

> Since early 2013 I've occasionally asked this list for help, and shared
> the progress regarding the creation of a Unix Git repository containing
> Unix releases from the 1970s until today [1].
>
> On Saturday I presented this work [2, 3] at MSR '15: The 12th Working
> Conference on Mining Software Repositories, and on Sunday I discussed
> the work with the participants over a poster [4] (complete with commits
> shown in a teletype (lcase) and a VT-220 font).  Amazingly, the work
> received the conference's "Best Data Showcase Award", for which I'm
> obviously very happy.
>
> I'd like to thank again the many individuals who contributed to the
> effort. Brian W. Kernighan, Doug McIlroy, and Arnold D. Robbins helped
> with Bell Labs login identifiers. Clem Cole, Era Eriksson, Mary Ann
> Horton, Kirk McKusick, Jeremy C. Reed, Ingo Schwarze, and Anatole Shaw
> helped with BSD login identifiers. The BSD SCCS import code is based on
> work by H. Merijn Brand and Jonathan Gray.
>
> A lot of work remains to be done.  Given that the build process is
> shared as open source code, it is easy to contribute additions and fixes
> through GitHub pull requests on the build software repository [5], but
> if you feel uncomfortable with that, just send me email. The most useful
> community contribution would be to increase the coverage of imported
> snapshot files that are attributed to a specific author. Currently,
> about 90 thousand files (out of a total of 160 thousand) are getting
> assigned an author through a default rule. Similarly, there are about
> 250 authors (primarily early FreeBSD ones) for which only the identifier
> is known. Both are listed in the build repository's unmatched directory
> [6], and contributions are welcomed (start with early editions; I can
> propagate from there). Most importantly, more branches of open source
> systems can be added, such as NetBSD OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, and illumos.
> Ideally, current right holders of other important historical Unix
> releases, such as System III, System V, NeXTSTEP, and SunOS, will
> release their systems under a license that would allow their
> incorporation into this repository.  If you know people who can help in
> this, please nudge them.
>
> --Diomidis
>
> [1] https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo
> [2]
>
> http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/conf/2015-MSR-Unix-History/html/Spi15c.html
> (HTML)
> [3]
> http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/conf/2015-MSR-Unix-History/html/Spi15c.pdf
> (PDF)
> [4]
> http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/conf/2015-MSR-Unix-History/html/poster.pdf
> (105MB)
> [5] https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-make
> [6]
> https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-make/tree/master/src/unmatched
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Wed May 20 01:40:17 2015
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 11:40:17 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
Message-ID: <201505191540.t4JFeHCb022903@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>


A fantastic curatorial exploit!              

> Deadly quote "and nobody cares about that early code history any more
> --so this is all water under the bridge."

This particular metaphor always reminds me of the Farberism: "That's
water over the bridge." Dave, a major presence at Bell Labs, master
malaprop, friend of many and collaborator with several of the early
Unix team, may be counted as an honorary Unixian.

Doug


From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed May 20 01:55:12 2015
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 09:55:12 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
	MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <m2twv8j4wn.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <m2twv8j4wn.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
Message-ID: <A36C5506-04E8-42FC-B120-B980AA4623D4@bsdimp.com>


> On May 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih at hamartun.priv.no> wrote:
> 
> Diomidis Spinellis <dds at aueb.gr> writes:
> 
>> Since early 2013 I've occasionally asked this list for help, and shared
>> the progress regarding the creation of a Unix Git repository containing
>> Unix releases from the 1970s until today [1].
> 
> This is so cool!  Great work!  :)
> 
>> Most importantly, more branches of open source systems can be added,
>> such as NetBSD, OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, and illumos.
> 
> Getting early NetBSD in there would help complete the continuity, seeing
> as NetBSD was a fork of 386BSD, and FreeBSD a later fork of NetBSD.

FreeBSD was never a fork of NetBSD. OpenBSD was a later fork of NetBSD.
FreeBSD and NetBSD both forked from the patch kits that were produced for
the 386BSD project.

Warner

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From cowan at ccil.org  Wed May 20 02:26:29 2015
From: cowan at ccil.org (cowan at ccil.org)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 12:26:29 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <201505191540.t4JFeHCb022903@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
References: <201505191540.t4JFeHCb022903@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Message-ID: <730de02d297f103beb8c006bc74bd7d5.squirrel@www.ccil.org>

Doug McIlroy scripsit:

> an honorary Unixian.

Did that term actually have currency in the Elder Days, or did you
make it up just now?  I note the comparable term "Multician"
<http://multicians.org>

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
MEET US AT POINT ORANGE AT MIDNIGHT BRING YOUR DUCK OR PREPARE TO FACE
WUGGUMS




From tih at hamartun.priv.no  Wed May 20 02:48:06 2015
From: tih at hamartun.priv.no (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 18:48:06 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
	MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <A36C5506-04E8-42FC-B120-B980AA4623D4@bsdimp.com> (Warner Losh's
 message of "Tue, 19 May 2015 09:55:12 -0600")
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <m2twv8j4wn.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
 <A36C5506-04E8-42FC-B120-B980AA4623D4@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <m2d21wh5tl.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>

Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> writes:

>> Getting early NetBSD in there would help complete the continuity, seeing
>> as NetBSD was a fork of 386BSD, and FreeBSD a later fork of NetBSD.
>
> FreeBSD was never a fork of NetBSD. OpenBSD was a later fork of NetBSD.
> FreeBSD and NetBSD both forked from the patch kits that were produced for
> the 386BSD project.

I stand corrected!  Looking at Éric Lévénez' time line of Unix, I see
that you're right.  In my own recollection, the FreeBSD split, which
happened a few months after Chris Demetriou and others started NetBSD,
was out of NetBSD -- but it seems it was, after all, a parallel fork
from Bill Jolitz' code base.  (The whole thing triggered because he
didn't adopt the patch kits, and the NetBSD/FreeBSD separation taking
place because of differences of opinion on multi-architecture support.)

And, while it's a subject: the split was on very friendly terms.  :)

-tih
-- 
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"


From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Wed May 20 03:29:17 2015
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 13:29:17 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <730de02d297f103beb8c006bc74bd7d5.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
References: <201505191540.t4JFeHCb022903@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
 <730de02d297f103beb8c006bc74bd7d5.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <201505191729.t4JHTHWo024117@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>

> > an honorary Unixian.
  
> Did that term actually have currency in the Elder Days, or did you
> make it up just now?  I note the comparable term "Multician"

A nonce imitation of "Multician". The Unix room was universally
known as such, but there was no distinctive moniker for its
inhabitants.

Doug


From clemc at ccc.com  Wed May 20 03:30:21 2015
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 13:30:21 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <m2d21wh5tl.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <m2twv8j4wn.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
 <A36C5506-04E8-42FC-B120-B980AA4623D4@bsdimp.com>
 <m2d21wh5tl.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2M4G0ibM6o=CVV8eg=fHC3gSyQM=osH3z7yf3dv8Hodgw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 12:48 PM, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih at hamartun.priv.no>
wrote:

> And, while it's a subject: the split was on very friendly terms.  :)


​Yes, they had different goals.   Jordan wanted to create a 386/PC friendly
install - be a low/no cost answer to MSFT when the target was Intel HW that
could be bought anywhere - i.e. HW purchased from "computer shopper".
[The port to other HW like Alpha would not come until much later]

NetBSD wanted to take the CRSG token make a solid system for research that
ran everywhere - i.e. lots of different target HW - 68K many different
vendors, Vax, Power, sparc, much less x86.  In fact, they would take back
from FreeBSD a lot of the 386 work eventually.

The NetBSD/OpenBSD fork would happen much later in time and that was based
on personalities and group management [that one was sad, but knowing both
group of people, understandable].

BTW: Linux would eventually take much of the install work that FreeBSD
originally developed - particularly in set up/install provisioning.​  At
the time, the Linux installs were pretty weak.

I know in my own case, many of us were worried that the AT&T/BSDi/UCB case
was going to make a "freely available" UNIX unable to happen.  Little did
we know that if AT&T had won, Linux (and all of the "clones") would have
been in violation of the AT&T IP - the trade secrets - and they would have
had to be removed from the market also.   I've often wondered what would
have really happened if that had occurred.

Instead, of course, a lot of hackers (myself included) quickly downloaded
Linux and started hacking and moving linux from toy to something real.

That said, I run the MacOS Unix flavor on my desk (and my wife, and each
child), FreeBSD & OpenBSD on my servers at home, but progam Linux for my
job these days.

Clem
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From tih at hamartun.priv.no  Wed May 20 04:06:17 2015
From: tih at hamartun.priv.no (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 20:06:17 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
	MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2M4G0ibM6o=CVV8eg=fHC3gSyQM=osH3z7yf3dv8Hodgw@mail.gmail.com>
 (Clem Cole's message of "Tue, 19 May 2015 13:30:21 -0400")
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <m2twv8j4wn.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
 <A36C5506-04E8-42FC-B120-B980AA4623D4@bsdimp.com>
 <m2d21wh5tl.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
 <CAC20D2M4G0ibM6o=CVV8eg=fHC3gSyQM=osH3z7yf3dv8Hodgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2382sfnmu.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>

Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> writes:

> That said, I run the MacOS Unix flavor on my desk (and my wife, and each
> child), FreeBSD & OpenBSD on my servers at home, but progam Linux for my
> job these days.

I sysadmin Linux for a living, but at home I run NetBSD on Intel (and
have done so ever since it was called "386bsd 0.0"), 4.3BSD on VAXen,
and 2.11BSD on PDP-11 systems.  :)

-tih
-- 
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"


From cowan at ccil.org  Wed May 20 04:55:57 2015
From: cowan at ccil.org (cowan at ccil.org)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 14:55:57 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2M4G0ibM6o=CVV8eg=fHC3gSyQM=osH3z7yf3dv8Hodgw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <m2twv8j4wn.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
 <A36C5506-04E8-42FC-B120-B980AA4623D4@bsdimp.com>
 <m2d21wh5tl.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
 <CAC20D2M4G0ibM6o=CVV8eg=fHC3gSyQM=osH3z7yf3dv8Hodgw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5b6c7ed2577c8761e41923c5774bdd93.squirrel@www.ccil.org>

Clem Cole scripsit:

> NetBSD wanted to take the CRSG token make a solid system for research that
> ran everywhere - i.e. lots of different target HW - 68K many different
> vendors, Vax, Power, sparc, much less x86.  In fact, they would take back
> from FreeBSD a lot of the 386 work eventually.

The Hannum interview says that portability wasn't the focus in the *very*
beginning, and that getting NetBSD running on different architectures
was because they had a lot of different architectures around.  So it
was making a virtue of what started out as necessity.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Do what you will / this Life's a Fiction
And is made up of / Contradiction.  --William Blake





From akosela at andykosela.com  Wed May 20 13:07:50 2015
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2015 22:07:50 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <5b6c7ed2577c8761e41923c5774bdd93.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <m2twv8j4wn.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
 <A36C5506-04E8-42FC-B120-B980AA4623D4@bsdimp.com>
 <m2d21wh5tl.fsf@athene.hamartun.priv.no>
 <CAC20D2M4G0ibM6o=CVV8eg=fHC3gSyQM=osH3z7yf3dv8Hodgw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5b6c7ed2577c8761e41923c5774bdd93.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <CALMnNGgnqY1cLW4wZRYhCB3P_nRXHoSiZvsdDnN0_BZcGyuFLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 1:55 PM,  <cowan at ccil.org> wrote:
> Clem Cole scripsit:
>
>> NetBSD wanted to take the CRSG token make a solid system for research that
>> ran everywhere - i.e. lots of different target HW - 68K many different
>> vendors, Vax, Power, sparc, much less x86.  In fact, they would take back
>> from FreeBSD a lot of the 386 work eventually.
>
> The Hannum interview says that portability wasn't the focus in the *very*
> beginning, and that getting NetBSD running on different architectures
> was because they had a lot of different architectures around.  So it
> was making a virtue of what started out as necessity.

In the *very* beginning Hannum wasn't even there to testify about it.
NetBSD was basically a project of Chris Demetriou (what is he doing
these days?) with the help of Theo, who made the second commit to the
tree.

And Warner is right about FreeBSD beginnings.  There was a lot of
personalities clashes in those early days.  I still believe that if we
were able to come up with one project instead of three, *BSD would be
much more successful and would displace Linux easily in the server
market.

--Andy


From dwalker at doomd.net  Thu May 21 11:42:21 2015
From: dwalker at doomd.net (Derrik Walker v2.0)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2015 21:42:21 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr>
Message-ID: <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>

On 05/18/2015 04:07 PM, Diomidis Spinellis wrote:
> Since early 2013 I've occasionally asked this list for help, and shared
> the progress regarding the creation of a Unix Git repository containing
> Unix releases from the 1970s until today [1].
>
> On Saturday I presented this work [2, 3] at MSR '15: The 12th Working
> Conference on Mining Software Repositories, and on Sunday I discussed
> the work with the participants over a poster [4] (complete with commits
> shown in a teletype (lcase) and a VT-220 font).  Amazingly, the work
> received the conference's "Best Data Showcase Award", for which I'm
> obviously very happy.
>
This work is AMAZING!  I've been collecting UNIX source code and 
documents since the mid '90's.  I have accumulated more that 20 gig of 
stuff ( including goodies like the NCD contributed CD they use to 
distribute with their X-tubes and one release of the Prime Time Freeware 
for UNIX ), and papers as PDF files I've found here and there ( like 
dmr's web page ).

But, my stuff is just a pile of barely organized sub-directories under 
~/unix on my main Linux system.  This work however ... is very well done.

Of course, I've snarked your paper and poster pdf's and am cloning the 
repository as I type this for my collection ( I only have the BSD stuff 
that's in the Archive ).

Congrats on the award.  It's well deserved!  And thanks for doing this!

I was wondering if you were planning on adding any of the Solaris stuff 
( I managed to get one source release of open Solaris before Oracle 
bought out sun ) or Darwin? Unfortunately, I don't seem to have the 
Darwin source anymore  ( some bits of my collection have been lost to 
time ), but I can contribute what I have of Open Solaris if you want it.

-- 
-- Derrik

Derrik Walker v2.0, RHCE
dwalker at doomd.net

"Those UNIX guys, they think weird!" -- John C. Dvorak



From dds at aueb.gr  Thu May 21 21:50:33 2015
From: dds at aueb.gr (Diomidis Spinellis)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:50:33 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
Message-ID: <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>

On 21/05/2015 04:42, Derrik Walker v2.0 wrote:
> I was wondering if you were planning on adding any of the Solaris stuff
> ( I managed to get one source release of open Solaris before Oracle
> bought out sun ) or Darwin? Unfortunately, I don't seem to have the
> Darwin source anymore  ( some bits of my collection have been lost to
> time ), but I can contribute what I have of Open Solaris if you want it.

I was thinking about this.  The candidates are illumos and OpenIndiana,
which contain commits until the present time.

The first commit on illumos is from 2005.

commit 7c478bd95313f5f23a4c958a745db2134aa03244
Author: stevel at tonic-gate <none at none>
Date:   Tue Jun 14 00:00:00 2005 -0700

    OpenSolaris Launch

This leaves a long dark period between 32V and 2005.  It'd therefore
prefer to wait, until we can get System V and early versions of SunOS
available under some type of open source license.


From asbesto at freaknet.org  Thu May 21 22:48:03 2015
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:48:03 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] reading 9 track tapes?
In-Reply-To: <201505110820.t4B8Kec5013263@skeeve.com>
References: <201505110820.t4B8Kec5013263@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <20150521124803.GB1221@freaknet.org>

Mon, May 11, 2015 at 11:20:40AM +0300, Aharon Robbins wrote:

> Can anyone still read 9 track tapes? We just uncovered two that date
> from my wife's time in grad school, circa 1989 - 1990.  They would
> be tar tapes.

we have a working setup for data recovery :)
we're in Sicilia, Italy!

;)

-- 
[ ::::::::: 73 de IW9HGS : http://freaknet.org/asbesto ::::::::::: ]
[ Freaknet Medialab :: Poetry Hacklab : Dyne.Org :: Radio Cybernet ]
[ NON SCRIVERMI USANDO LETTERE ACCENTATE  -  NON MANDARMI ALLEGATI ]
[ *I DELETE* EMAIL > 100K, ATTACHMENTS, HTML, M$-WORD DOC and SPAM ]



From asbesto at freaknet.org  Thu May 21 22:50:40 2015
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:50:40 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] reading 9 track tapes?
In-Reply-To: <20150511184850.0904214DCB@www.oztivo.net>
References: <20150511171856.A757518C0FC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20150511184850.0904214DCB@www.oztivo.net>
Message-ID: <20150521125040.GC1221@freaknet.org>

Mon, May 11, 2015 at 12:35:41PM -0500, John Foust wrote:

> >    > Can anyone still read 9 track tapes? We just un-covered two that date

> >but the physical condition of the tapes; that old, they might have issues
> >with shedding of oxide, etc (which a heat soak can mostly cure). If you

> Oh, that tape may be just fine if it was kept in office conditions.

well, it's a matter of chemical bonds that broke; something in
the tape just change due to age, and sometimes a good stored
tape can be difficult to read, and need baking.  We're also able
to do that, we recovered a lot of media at our museum.

ps http://museum.freaknet.org (very old site, sorry)

-- 
[ ::::::::: 73 de IW9HGS : http://freaknet.org/asbesto ::::::::::: ]
[ Freaknet Medialab :: Poetry Hacklab : Dyne.Org :: Radio Cybernet ]
[ NON SCRIVERMI USANDO LETTERE ACCENTATE  -  NON MANDARMI ALLEGATI ]
[ *I DELETE* EMAIL > 100K, ATTACHMENTS, HTML, M$-WORD DOC and SPAM ]



From cowan at ccil.org  Fri May 22 01:09:45 2015
From: cowan at ccil.org (cowan at ccil.org)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:09:45 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
 <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
Message-ID: <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>

Diomidis Spinellis scripsit:

> This leaves a long dark period between 32V and 2005.  It'd therefore
> prefer to wait, until we can get System V and early versions of SunOS
> available under some type of open source license.

It might be possible to get the vanilla-from-AT&T System V Releases 1-3
freely licensed, though Novell is presumably still making money from AIX,
which descends from SVR3.  SVR4 has proprietary Microsoft (Xenix) and
SunOS (Oracle) code in it, plus being the ancestor of still-current HP/UX.
Scrubbing proprietary third-party code to make an open-source release
of any of these ancient versions, as had to be done for Solaris (and Java),
is almost certainly too much work for anyone to want to undertake today.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then, I contradict myself.
I am large, I contain multitudes.
        --Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass




From clemc at ccc.com  Fri May 22 01:49:01 2015
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 11:49:01 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
 <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
 <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>

​below.​

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:09 AM, <cowan at ccil.org> wrote:

> It might be possible to get the vanilla-from-AT&T System V Releases 1-3
> freely licensed, though Novell is presumably still making money from AIX,
> which descends from SVR3.
>
Hmm ..I thought all of the majors >>except<< for DEC​ bought out their
licenses at some point.   I admit I've forgotten the specifics, but  that
is my recollection.




> SVR4 has proprietary Microsoft (Xenix) and
> SunOS (Oracle) code in it, plus being the ancestor of still-current HP/UX.
>
​HP/UX is an SVR3 & OSF/1 ancester.   Solaris is SVR4.  In fact it was the
SVR4 license and deal between Sun and AT&T)​ that forced the whole OSF
creation.  One of the "principles" of the OSF was "Fair and Stable" license
terms.

Which begs a question - since Solaris was SVR4 based and was made freely
available via OpenSolaris et al, does that not make SVR4 open?   I'm not a
lawyer (nor play one on TV), but it does seem like that sets some sort of
precedent.



> Scrubbing proprietary third-party code to make an open-source release
> of any of these ancient versions, as had to be done for Solaris (and Java),
>
​Interesting - how did they "scrub" SVR4 from it?   The whole idea was to
take SVR4 and "enhance it" using the SVR4 API's.  ​



> is almost certainly too much work for anyone to want to undertake today.
>
​Agreed, unless there is a clear statement from the owners, it's going to
be hard; which is a shame from a historical stand point, but I agree.
C
​lem​
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From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Fri May 22 03:03:06 2015
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 13:03:06 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
 <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
 <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
 <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfDo936vY-FNjByX1zC-ayhts1JdK2WwMQnnKSagTEwRhg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> ​HP/UX is an SVR3 & OSF/1 ancester.   Solaris is SVR4.  In fact it was the
> SVR4 license and deal between Sun and AT&T)​ that forced the whole OSF
> creation.  One of the "principles" of the OSF was "Fair and Stable" license
> terms.
>
> Which begs a question - since Solaris was SVR4 based and was made freely
> available via OpenSolaris et al, does that not make SVR4 open?   I'm not a
> lawyer (nor play one on TV), but it does seem like that sets some sort of
> precedent.
>
>
I hope not to hijack the thread, but those are interesting tidbits of info,
there, Clem.  Are these strategic license moves chronicled anywhere at the
moment?  It'd be interesting to read exactly who sued whom, who asked for
permission vs. who begged for forgiveness, etc.

thx
jake
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From clemc at ccc.com  Fri May 22 04:04:44 2015
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 14:04:44 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfDo936vY-FNjByX1zC-ayhts1JdK2WwMQnnKSagTEwRhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
 <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
 <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
 <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDo936vY-FNjByX1zC-ayhts1JdK2WwMQnnKSagTEwRhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2P8g8ifXUtVOgTrba1UZy=hwL_yPJiYkYU3OckaZ4WdYw@mail.gmail.com>

I never took those kinds of notes.  We certainly talked about it and we
used to have know who had what at Locus since all of the majors were our
customers and we had to be very, very careful to not cross pollinate.
Sometimes we would do specific work in different offices, just to make the
firewall easier to manage.  For instance the Ultrix and Tru64 work we did
for DEC, as well as the HP work was done in Boston.  Most of the IBM work
was done in the LA office, and Intel work was led in San Diego.

There was a time when I had the release schedules of DEC, IBM, HP and Sun
taped the wall behind my desk, because we had teams delivering things to
all 4 of them.

That said, if you talked to one of the UNIX press of the old days, like the
old "UNIXgram/X" folks, you could put together the chronology. However, I
don't know that any of that is on line anywhere to search.   But that would
be the documentation I would look if I was a lawyer trying to demonstrate
who did what in what order.   Some of those folks are still around and
writing, I saw something from Timothy Pickering Morgan just yesterday
talking about Linux and I see some of the other names pop up in the blogs
and journals at different times.

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>>
>> ​HP/UX is an SVR3 & OSF/1 ancester.   Solaris is SVR4.  In fact it was
>> the SVR4 license and deal between Sun and AT&T)​ that forced the whole OSF
>> creation.  One of the "principles" of the OSF was "Fair and Stable" license
>> terms.
>>
>> Which begs a question - since Solaris was SVR4 based and was made freely
>> available via OpenSolaris et al, does that not make SVR4 open?   I'm not a
>> lawyer (nor play one on TV), but it does seem like that sets some sort of
>> precedent.
>>
>>
> I hope not to hijack the thread, but those are interesting tidbits of
> info, there, Clem.  Are these strategic license moves chronicled anywhere
> at the moment?  It'd be interesting to read exactly who sued whom, who
> asked for permission vs. who begged for forgiveness, etc.
>
> thx
> jake
>
>
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From scj at yaccman.com  Fri May 22 05:41:05 2015
From: scj at yaccman.com (scj at yaccman.com)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:41:05 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <201505191729.t4JHTHWo024117@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
References: <201505191540.t4JFeHCb022903@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
 <730de02d297f103beb8c006bc74bd7d5.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
 <201505191729.t4JHTHWo024117@coolidge.cs.dartmouth.edu>
Message-ID: <36e59ab511afb44b11f784829c7d4cb1.squirrel@webmail.yaccman.com>

There was a story, perhaps apocryphal, that Sam Morgan once told a caller
"Hold on.  I'll transfer you to the Unix room.  One of the boys up there
can help you..."


>> > an honorary Unixian.
>
>> Did that term actually have currency in the Elder Days, or did you
>> make it up just now?  I note the comparable term "Multician"
>
> A nonce imitation of "Multician". The Unix room was universally
> known as such, but there was no distinctive moniker for its
> inhabitants.
>
> Doug
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>




From scj at yaccman.com  Fri May 22 05:54:06 2015
From: scj at yaccman.com (scj at yaccman.com)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 12:54:06 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr>
Message-ID: <f0b9d6259465611cc4b3a0e6730da45b.squirrel@webmail.yaccman.com>

My contribution to the author attribution is to point out that, at least
in the Research Bell Labs days, there was a unique but very effective
rule--if you touch it, you own it!  People were encouraged to hack the
code rather than complain to the previous authors.  But when they did,
they owned the result, bugs and all.

For example, I invented the first "at" command.  My contribution was
primarily the name and some of the syntax.  My implementation was as a
shell script, which absolutely revolted Dennis.  Within a couple of days
he had replaced it with a jewel that not only ran the command at the
correct time, but from the correct directory and with the correct
permissions.  I never touched it again...

I've never again worked with a group that took such an approach to
ownership, and I have frequently missed it...

Steve

> The most useful
> community contribution would be to increase the coverage of imported
> snapshot files that are attributed to a specific author. Currently,
> about 90 thousand files (out of a total of 160 thousand) are getting
> assigned an author through a default rule. Similarly, there are about
> 250 authors (primarily early FreeBSD ones) for which only the identifier
> is known. Both are listed in the build repository's unmatched directory
> [6], and contributions are welcomed (start with early editions; I can
> propagate from there). Most importantly, more branches of open source
> systems can be added, such as NetBSD OpenBSD, DragonFlyBSD, and illumos.
> Ideally, current right holders of other important historical Unix
> releases, such as System III, System V, NeXTSTEP, and SunOS, will
> release their systems under a license that would allow their
> incorporation into this repository.  If you know people who can help in
> this, please nudge them.
>
> --Diomidis
>




From cowan at mercury.ccil.org  Fri May 22 10:17:20 2015
From: cowan at mercury.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2015 20:17:20 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
 <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
 <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
 <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20150522001720.GA23248@mercury.ccil.org>

Clem Cole scripsit:

> Which begs a question - since Solaris was SVR4 based and was made freely
> available via OpenSolaris et al, does that not make SVR4 open?   I'm not a
> lawyer (nor play one on TV), but it does seem like that sets some sort of
> precedent.

The fact that a specific copy bears a specific license may affect the
license on later copies by a means such as the GPL, but can't possibly
affect earlier copies, which are still bound by the earlier grave and
perilous license.  So you can use any SVR4 bits that are still part of
OpenSolaris freely within the terms of the CDDL, but not so any other
SVR4 bits.

> > Scrubbing proprietary third-party code to make an open-source release
> > of any of these ancient versions, as had to be done for Solaris (and Java),
> 
> ​Interesting - how did they "scrub" SVR4 from it?   The whole idea was to
> take SVR4 and "enhance it" using the SVR4 API's.  ​

I wasn't speaking of SVR4, but other non-Sun cruft that accumulated
between SVR4 and Solaris 10.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
What has four pairs of pants, lives in Philadelphia,
and it never rains but it pours?
        --Rufus T. Firefly


From dave at horsfall.org  Fri May 22 23:25:52 2015
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2015 23:25:52 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] reading 9 track tapes?
In-Reply-To: <20150521124803.GB1221@freaknet.org>
References: <201505110820.t4B8Kec5013263@skeeve.com>
 <20150521124803.GB1221@freaknet.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.11.1505222317440.71629@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Thu, 21 May 2015, asbesto wrote:

> we have a working setup for data recovery :)
> we're in Sicilia, Italy!

Ahh, the home of the Cosa Nostra :-)

"Let us do a deal with you."

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)   "Those who don't understand security will suffer."
http://www.horsfall.org/spam.html (and check the home page whilst you're there)


From mah at mhorton.net  Tue May 26 02:46:54 2015
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 09:46:54 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2P8g8ifXUtVOgTrba1UZy=hwL_yPJiYkYU3OckaZ4WdYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
 <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
 <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
 <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDo936vY-FNjByX1zC-ayhts1JdK2WwMQnnKSagTEwRhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2P8g8ifXUtVOgTrba1UZy=hwL_yPJiYkYU3OckaZ4WdYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <556351FE.70300@mhorton.net>

Is the original SVR4 around somewhere (even if still considered trade 
secret or copyrighted?)

I'm getting ready to have my collection of 9 track magtapes recovered, 
(Sydex sounds very reasonable) and I find I have 5 AT&T SVR4 tapes among 
them (all different, I think, but I won't know until I read them.)  They 
are labeled Proprietary and Copyright, and I claim no special rights to 
them other than as an ex AT&T employee.

Is it worth recovering them?

     Mary Ann

On 05/21/2015 11:04 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> I never took those kinds of notes.  We certainly talked about it and 
> we used to have know who had what at Locus since all of the majors 
> were our customers and we had to be very, very careful to not cross 
> pollinate.   Sometimes we would do specific work in different offices, 
> just to make the firewall easier to manage.  For instance the Ultrix 
> and Tru64 work we did for DEC, as well as the HP work was done in 
> Boston.  Most of the IBM work was done in the LA office, and Intel 
> work was led in San Diego.
>
> There was a time when I had the release schedules of DEC, IBM, HP and 
> Sun taped the wall behind my desk, because we had teams delivering 
> things to all 4 of them.
>
> That said, if you talked to one of the UNIX press of the old days, 
> like the old "UNIXgram/X" folks, you could put together the 
> chronology. However, I don't know that any of that is on line anywhere 
> to search.   But that would be the documentation I would look if I was 
> a lawyer trying to demonstrate who did what in what order.   Some of 
> those folks are still around and writing, I saw something from Timothy 
> Pickering Morgan just yesterday talking about Linux and I see some of 
> the other names pop up in the blogs and journals at different times.
>
> On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Jacob Ritorto 
> <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com <mailto:jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com
>     <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>> wrote:
>
>         ​ HP/UX is an SVR3 & OSF/1 ancester. Solaris is SVR4.  In fact
>         it was the SVR4 license and deal between Sun and AT&T)​ that
>         forced the whole OSF creation.  One of the "principles" of the
>         OSF was "Fair and Stable" license terms.
>
>         Which begs a question - since Solaris was SVR4 based and was
>         made freely available via OpenSolaris et al, does that not
>         make SVR4 open?   I'm not a lawyer (nor play one on TV), but
>         it does seem like that sets some sort of precedent.
>
>
>     I hope not to hijack the thread, but those are interesting tidbits
>     of info, there, Clem.  Are these strategic license moves
>     chronicled anywhere at the moment?  It'd be interesting to read
>     exactly who sued whom, who asked for permission vs. who begged for
>     forgiveness, etc.
>
>     thx
>     jake
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

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From cowan at mercury.ccil.org  Tue May 26 03:21:16 2015
From: cowan at mercury.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 13:21:16 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <556351FE.70300@mhorton.net>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
 <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
 <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
 <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDo936vY-FNjByX1zC-ayhts1JdK2WwMQnnKSagTEwRhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2P8g8ifXUtVOgTrba1UZy=hwL_yPJiYkYU3OckaZ4WdYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <556351FE.70300@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <20150525172115.GC13469@mercury.ccil.org>

Mary Ann Horton scripsit:

> Is it worth recovering them?

Only you can judge whether the price (whatever that may be) is worth it
to you.  I think they're historically very important, and I doubt anyone
would sue you if you posted them somewhere.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
To say that Bilbo's breath was taken away is no description at all.  There are
no words left to express his staggerment, since Men changed the language that
they learned of elves in the days when all the world was wonderful. --The Hobbit


From b4 at gewt.net  Tue May 26 07:15:32 2015
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 17:15:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <556351FE.70300@mhorton.net>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
 <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
 <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
 <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDo936vY-FNjByX1zC-ayhts1JdK2WwMQnnKSagTEwRhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2P8g8ifXUtVOgTrba1UZy=hwL_yPJiYkYU3OckaZ4WdYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <556351FE.70300@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.20.1505251708210.669@meaghan.gimme-sympathy.org>

On Mon, 25 May 2015, Mary Ann Horton wrote:

> Is the original SVR4 around somewhere (even if still considered trade secret 
> or copyrighted?)
>

I don't believe so, but possibly in some obscure SCADA systems?  Counting 
hobbyists running it on 3B2s or excluding that? ;)

I think only derived systems remain.

> I'm getting ready to have my collection of 9 track magtapes recovered, (Sydex 
> sounds very reasonable) and I find I have 5 AT&T SVR4 tapes among them (all 
> different, I think, but I won't know until I read them.)  They are labeled 
> Proprietary and Copyright, and I claim no special rights to them other than 
> as an ex AT&T employee.
>

All different?  I am very interested.

> Is it worth recovering them?

I believe it is, but I'd recover and archive most anything UNIX.

Any bits of CB Unix on there?

>
>    Mary Ann
>

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May 26 05:05:44 2015
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2015 15:05:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
	MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
Message-ID: <20150525190544.785B618C0B5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Mary Ann Horton

    > I have 5 AT&T SVR4 tapes among them .. Is it worth recovering them?

I would say that unless they are _known_ to be in a repository somewhere, yes
(unless it's going to cost a fortune - SVR4 isn't _that_ key a step in the
evolution, I don't think [but I stand to be corrected :-]).

	Noel


From berny at berwynlodge.com  Tue May 26 20:07:08 2015
From: berny at berwynlodge.com (Berny Goodheart)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 11:07:08 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
	MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
Message-ID: <392B6275-3383-4AD8-A305-B99ED87254B1@berwynlodge.com>


> 
>    On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 11:49 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>
>    <mailto:clemc at ccc.com <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>>> wrote:
> 
>        ? HP/UX is an SVR3 & OSF/1 ancester. Solaris is SVR4.  In fact
>        it was the SVR4 license and deal between Sun and AT&T)? that
>        forced the whole OSF creation.  One of the "principles" of the
>        OSF was "Fair and Stable" license terms.
> 
>        Which begs a question - since Solaris was SVR4 based and was
>        made freely available via OpenSolaris et al, does that not
>        make SVR4 open?   I'm not a lawyer (nor play one on TV), but
>        it does seem like that sets some sort of precedent.

This is indeed an interesting question. During the IBM vs SCO debacle,
IBM requested the use of TMGE to be used as an example for proof of
how the SVR4 kernel algorithms were already out in the public domain
and thus set the precedent. And this was also (eventually) approved by
AT&T for publication.
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From sj at sdf.org  Wed May 27 03:55:11 2015
From: sj at sdf.org (Scot Jenkins)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 13:55:11 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <556351FE.70300@mhorton.net>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
 <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
 <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
 <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDo936vY-FNjByX1zC-ayhts1JdK2WwMQnnKSagTEwRhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2P8g8ifXUtVOgTrba1UZy=hwL_yPJiYkYU3OckaZ4WdYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <556351FE.70300@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <201505261755.t4QHtBpt012154@sdf.org>

Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

> Is the original SVR4 around somewhere (even if still considered trade 
> secret or copyrighted?)


I found this several years ago.  Not sure who posted it.

https://archive.org/details/ATTUNIXSystemVRelease4Version2

scot


From merlyn at geeks.org  Wed May 27 05:12:48 2015
From: merlyn at geeks.org (Doug McIntyre)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2015 14:12:48 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr>
 <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
Message-ID: <20150526191248.GB86411@geeks.org>

On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 09:42:21PM -0400, Derrik Walker v2.0 wrote:
> I was wondering if you were planning on adding any of the Solaris stuff 
> ( I managed to get one source release of open Solaris before Oracle 
> bought out sun ) or Darwin? Unfortunately, I don't seem to have the 
> Darwin source anymore..

Darwin has quite a lot of material available at http://opensource.apple.com/
(ie. the xnu- packages are the kernel source code).

Sun released Solaris 8 source code, but I don't remember what license. At
the time it wasn't quite like today with license terms fully spelled out.
And of course OpenSolaris for some period.



From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu May 28 13:19:45 2015
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 13:19:45 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] unix-jun72 now on Github
Message-ID: <20150528031945.GA393@www.oztivo.net>

All, I finally remembered to export the unix-jun72 project over to Github:

	https://github.com/DoctorWkt/unix-jun72

This was our effort to bring the 1st Edition Unix kernel back to life
along with the early C compilers and the 2nd Edition userland binaries.

Cheers, Warren


From mah at mhorton.net  Sat May 30 00:14:45 2015
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2015 07:14:45 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] A repository with 44 years of Unix evolution gets the
 MSR '15 Best Data Showcase Award
In-Reply-To: <201505261755.t4QHtBpt012154@sdf.org>
References: <555A4699.5060107@aueb.gr> <555D37FD.5010507@doomd.net>
 <555DC689.3050906@aueb.gr>
 <b0201a671a073e2c210556ffeaf7582c.squirrel@www.ccil.org>
 <CAC20D2PaT_724Z3z+7HWwMmJ3ud7GYyj2JRMJdMe3uicskfv1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHYQbfDo936vY-FNjByX1zC-ayhts1JdK2WwMQnnKSagTEwRhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2P8g8ifXUtVOgTrba1UZy=hwL_yPJiYkYU3OckaZ4WdYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <556351FE.70300@mhorton.net> <201505261755.t4QHtBpt012154@sdf.org>
Message-ID: <55687455.4050104@mhorton.net>

Thanks for this link.  There is some good stuff there!  Every piece of 
source I looked for is there.  The ex/vi "ex.news" was certainly a trip 
down memory lane.  But it's amazing how compact this distribution is.

I'll go ahead and have the tapes read.  Who knows, I might find some new 
goodies.

     Mary Ann

On 05/26/2015 10:55 AM, Scot Jenkins wrote:
> Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:
>
>> Is the original SVR4 around somewhere (even if still considered trade
>> secret or copyrighted?)
>
> I found this several years ago.  Not sure who posted it.
>
> https://archive.org/details/ATTUNIXSystemVRelease4Version2
>
> scot



