From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Dec  1 15:03:18 2014
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 16:03:18 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] What's with the DZ-11?
In-Reply-To: <20141130070347.GA14351@www.oztivo.net>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.11.1411270742130.30791@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.11.1411280635090.30791@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20141130060333.GA9983@www.oztivo.net>
 <alpine.BSF.2.11.1411301740070.7545@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20141130070347.GA14351@www.oztivo.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.11.1412011542340.13478@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sun, 30 Nov 2014, Warren Toomey wrote:

> > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=AUSAM/sys/dmr/dz.c
> > That's the one!  Bless you :-)
> 
> There seems to be an earlier one here at
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=AUSAM/sys/dmr/dz.c-elec

Hadn't realised that there were two different *fast* versions, but I do 
recall using the KW-11P gave blazing performance.  Well, when you had the 
11/70 loaded with *seven* DZ-11s, something had to be done...

Warren, would the old CSU40/CSU60 stuff be around?  I pretty much ran that 
place until I left; a 9-track tape followed me home, but even if I knew 
where it was now it ain't gonna be readable after over 30 years...

If I could figure out how to search by file name, I'd look for, oh, "ei.c" 
(the UT200 driver that I wrote), "lv.c" (Versatec LV-11 driver), and 
"xy.c" (which would be the Calcomp plotter).

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Bliss is a MacBook with a FreeBSD server."
http://www.horsfall.org/spam.html (and check the home page whilst you're there)


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Dec  1 22:32:05 2014
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  1 Dec 2014 07:32:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] What's with the DZ-11?
Message-ID: <20141201123205.3B68B18C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org>

    > a 9-track tape followed me home, but even if I knew where it was now it
    > ain't gonna be readable after over 30 years...

Umm, don't be too sure!

I have several sets of backup tapes from one of the V6 machines at MIT, and
those are also roughly 30 years old, and they are not in the best shape (they
sat in my basement for most of that time). I sent one off to someone who
specializes in reading old tapes, and he's gotten almost all the bits off of
it (a few records had unrecoverable read errors, but the vast majority were
OK - like roughly 15 read errors in around 1500 records).

So do look for that tape (unless the material is all already online).

I hope to annouce a vast trove of stuff soon from my tapes (once I figure out
how to interpret the bits - they are written by a sui generis application
called 'saveRVD', and the _only_ documentation of how it did it is... on that
tape! :-) That includes a lot of code written at MIT, as well as stuff
from elsewhere.

Coming sbould be BCPL, Algol, LISP and some other languages; MACRO-11 and the
DEC linker (which I guess are also available from UNSW tapes),but _also_
programs to convert back and forth from .REL to a.out format, and to .LDA
format; and a whole ton of other applications (I have no idea what all is
there - if anyone is interested, I can make a pass through my manuals and try
and make a list).

	Noel


From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue Dec  2 01:46:59 2014
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 08:46:59 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] What's with the DZ-11?
In-Reply-To: <20141201123205.3B68B18C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20141201123205.3B68B18C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <7EAAFD86-10C4-49C4-A3D5-F7B1B6FE87AE@bsdimp.com>


> On Dec 1, 2014, at 5:32 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> Coming sbould be BCPL, Algol, LISP and some other languages; MACRO-11 and the
> DEC linker (which I guess are also available from UNSW tapes),but _also_
> programs to convert back and forth from .REL to a.out format, and to .LDA
> format; and a whole ton of other applications (I have no idea what all is
> there - if anyone is interested, I can make a pass through my manuals and try
> and make a list).

I remember playing ZORK (dungeo) in college on a VAX 11/750 which was
a PDP-11 a.out run in emulation mode (well, to be honest it was even more
complex than that, since there was a shell script to open all the data files on
specific FDs, setup some weird environment variables and then the PDP-11
program was run). The image looked to be converted from an RT-11 version
of the program that I ran under RSTS/E on a PDP-11/34 while working for a
small database company in high school…

I’d always wondered how that came to be, and what tools were needed to
run it...

Warner

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From clemc at ccc.com  Tue Dec  2 02:41:10 2014
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2014 11:41:10 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] What's with the DZ-11?
In-Reply-To: <7EAAFD86-10C4-49C4-A3D5-F7B1B6FE87AE@bsdimp.com>
References: <20141201123205.3B68B18C120@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <7EAAFD86-10C4-49C4-A3D5-F7B1B6FE87AE@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2N=GkvQ-XcSe26uajkvJAiu5gWz_rd2FoMgsB9osH3fPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 10:46 AM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:

> I remember playing ZORK (dungeo) in college on a VAX 11/750 which was
> a PDP-11 a.out run in emulation mode (well, to be honest it was even more
> complex than that, since there was a shell script to open all the data
> files on
> specific FDs, setup some weird environment variables and then the PDP-11
> program was run). The image looked to be converted from an RT-11 version
> of the program that I ran under RSTS/E on a PDP-11/34 while working for a
> small database company in high school…
>
> I’d always wondered how that came to be, and what tools were needed to
> run it...
>
Ah the "dmap" talk from the guys at Pitt in I think the winter 1980 USENIX
conference.

The story is that it was indeed an RT11 image.  The guys at Pitt hacked up
"enough" support for the 11 emulation mode on 4.1 to allow it to run.   The
project was referred to as "dmap manipulation" to keep it under the radar.
I can picture the face of the guy that did it, but I've forgotten his name.
  I fear it was early enough in USENIX time that there might not be
proceedings.

Clem
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From b4 at gewt.net  Sun Dec 21 16:01:28 2014
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 01:01:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] HP300/4.4BSD stuff
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1412210057280.627@gewt.net>

Evening all,

Am I correct in my guess that 4.4BSD was built cross on an HP300? I have 
never found a binary dist of anything other than HP300 4.4...and my 
attempts to build 4.4 on ULTRIX/SunOS have so far not succeeded...it had 
to have been built SOMEHOW.

I picked up an HP300 to help me get somewhere...but it seems to only have 
a 68010. :(

I either need to find a definitive 68020-minimum one on ebay...someone 
with one available...or some tips of actually cross-building 4.4 for MIPS 
or SPARCv7 (I have physical hardware for either)

I am very determined to run pure 4.4 on something bigger than a PIC32. ;)

-- 
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sun Dec 21 18:58:16 2014
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 09:58:16 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] HP300/4.4BSD stuff
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1412210057280.627@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1412210057280.627@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <54968BA8.9050902@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 21.12.14 um 07:01 schrieb Cory Smelosky:
> Am I correct in my guess that 4.4BSD was built cross on an HP300?
Don't know, but...

> I have never found a binary dist of anything other than HP300 4.4...
I searched for 4.4/SPARC some 12 years back. IIRC on this very mailing
list and elsewhere. I didn't find it. Even Kirk McKusick got slightly
involved but nothing surfaced.

> and my attempts to build 4.4 on ULTRIX/SunOS have so far not succeeded
Have you tried NetBSD 1.1? (The first NetBSD release to support PMAX.)

> I picked up an HP300 to help me get somewhere...but it seems to only
> have a 68010. :(
Note: You can use a HP400 also. I have a 433t running 4.4BSD. I used
a netbooted NetBSD to get it installed.

I'd love to get a copy of 4.4BSD/SPARC or PMAX.
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen



From b4 at gewt.net  Sun Dec 21 19:19:13 2014
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 04:19:13 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] HP300/4.4BSD stuff
In-Reply-To: <54968BA8.9050902@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1412210057280.627@gewt.net>
 <54968BA8.9050902@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <96B36E35-B743-47DC-A849-55FD124D600B@gewt.net>



Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 21, 2014, at 03:58, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
> 
>> Am 21.12.14 um 07:01 schrieb Cory Smelosky:
>> Am I correct in my guess that 4.4BSD was built cross on an HP300?
> Don't know, but...
> 
>> I have never found a binary dist of anything other than HP300 4.4...
> I searched for 4.4/SPARC some 12 years back. IIRC on this very mailing
> list and elsewhere. I didn't find it. Even Kirk McKusick got slightly
> involved but nothing surfaced.

Hmmmmm...

> 
>> and my attempts to build 4.4 on ULTRIX/SunOS have so far not succeeded
> Have you tried NetBSD 1.1? (The first NetBSD release to support PMAX.)

Wouldn't boot on my 3MIN :( Dies shortly after jumping to entry point.

> 
>> I picked up an HP300 to help me get somewhere...but it seems to only
>> have a 68010. :(
> Note: You can use a HP400 also. I have a 433t running 4.4BSD. I used
> a netbooted NetBSD to get it installed.

Is an HP400 easier to find? ;)

I would love to have access to that box...I THINKS I can cross for SPARC.

> 
> I'd love to get a copy of 4.4BSD/SPARC or PMAX.

That's why I have one of each...to hopefully build it.

> -- 
> 
> tschüß,
>       Jochen
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Mon Dec 22 02:19:19 2014
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 17:19:19 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] HP300/4.4BSD stuff
In-Reply-To: <96B36E35-B743-47DC-A849-55FD124D600B@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1412210057280.627@gewt.net>
 <54968BA8.9050902@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <96B36E35-B743-47DC-A849-55FD124D600B@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <5496F307.8020604@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 21.12.14 um 10:19 schrieb Cory Smelosky:
>> Have you tried NetBSD 1.1? (The first NetBSD release to support PMAX.)
> Wouldn't boot on my 3MIN :( Dies shortly after jumping to entry point.
Bummer.

>> > Note: You can use a HP400 also. I have a 433t running 4.4BSD. I used
>> > a netbooted NetBSD to get it installed.
> Is an HP400 easier to find? ;)
At least I came across more 400 then 300.

> I would love to have access to that box...I THINKS I can cross for SPARC.
Unfortunately I don't have the facilities to manage that at the moment.
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen



From b4 at gewt.net  Mon Dec 22 04:50:29 2014
From: b4 at gewt.net (Cory Smelosky)
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2014 13:50:29 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] HP300/4.4BSD stuff
In-Reply-To: <5496F307.8020604@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1412210057280.627@gewt.net>
 <54968BA8.9050902@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <96B36E35-B743-47DC-A849-55FD124D600B@gewt.net>
 <5496F307.8020604@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <2D2D719C-D7F4-40B5-A531-B59CBCCF9CE1@gewt.net>



Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 21, 2014, at 11:19, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
> 
> Am 21.12.14 um 10:19 schrieb Cory Smelosky:
>>> Have you tried NetBSD 1.1? (The first NetBSD release to support PMAX.)
>> Wouldn't boot on my 3MIN :( Dies shortly after jumping to entry point.
> Bummer.

Yeah :(

> 
>>>> Note: You can use a HP400 also. I have a 433t running 4.4BSD. I used
>>>> a netbooted NetBSD to get it installed.
>> Is an HP400 easier to find? ;)
> At least I came across more 400 then 300.

Hmmmm.

> 
>> I would love to have access to that box...I THINKS I can cross for SPARC.
> Unfortunately I don't have the facilities to manage that at the moment.

I could always buy your 400. ;)

> -- 
> 
> tschüß,
>       Jochen
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Mon Dec 22 09:40:05 2014
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 00:40:05 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] HP300/4.4BSD stuff
In-Reply-To: <2D2D719C-D7F4-40B5-A531-B59CBCCF9CE1@gewt.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.03.1412210057280.627@gewt.net>
 <54968BA8.9050902@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <96B36E35-B743-47DC-A849-55FD124D600B@gewt.net>
 <5496F307.8020604@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <2D2D719C-D7F4-40B5-A531-B59CBCCF9CE1@gewt.net>
Message-ID: <54975A55.8030901@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Am 21.12.14 um 19:50 schrieb Cory Smelosky:
>>> I would love to have access to that box...I THINKS I can cross for SPARC.
>> > Unfortunately I don't have the facilities to manage that at the moment.
> I could always buy your 400. ;)
1. You will have to pry this machine out of my cold, dead fingers. ;-)
2. Shipping this tank would be prohibitively expensive.
   (I live in Germany.)
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen



From akosela at andykosela.com  Tue Dec 30 15:08:05 2014
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 23:08:05 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Bell Works
Message-ID: <CALMnNGgOR73reMdZHMrsn2E66jTY2H_u9Rf7x-mDp2+qx_QPrQ@mail.gmail.com>

This was brought to my attention on another mailing list.

"Marking a new chapter for one of the country’s most architecturally
and historically significant buildings, Somerset Development has
announced a new name for the iconic former Bell Labs complex in
Holmdel, N.J. The two-million-square-foot building – now named Bell
Works – is currently undergoing a more than $100-million adaptive
reuse redevelopment that will transform the facility into a dynamic
mixed-use center.”

http://patch.com/new-jersey/holmdel-hazlet/somerset-development-unveils-bell-works-mixeduse-center--in-holmdel-nj

http://bell.works/


From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 08:56:30 2014
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 17:56:30 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>

, but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?

thx
jake
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From wkt at tuhs.org  Wed Dec 31 09:05:11 2014
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 09:05:11 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>

2.11 BSD has clear (1).
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
Cheers Warren

On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
>, but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>
>thx
>jake
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>TUHS mailing list
>TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From milov at cs.uwlax.edu  Wed Dec 31 08:59:49 2014
From: milov at cs.uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 16:59:49 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8197ECC3-00A8-4CA3-96A3-51E1D8FC4B07@cs.uwlax.edu>

man clear

On Dec 30, 2014, at 4:56 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:

> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
> 
> thx
> jake
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs



From lm at mcvoy.com  Wed Dec 31 09:03:14 2014
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 15:03:14 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20141230230314.GA16630@mcvoy.com>

Back in the day it was clear(1) I thought.  Or cls?

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 05:56:30PM -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
> 
> thx
> jake

> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 


From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 10:01:09 2014
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 19:01:09 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfAGmxNF14WEn+H6fxwByzACs_aJmxzu2bQ0exvCtefc9g@mail.gmail.com>

oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the context
of a c program.

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
> Cheers Warren
>
> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>
>> thx
>> jake
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>>
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
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From usotsuki at buric.co  Wed Dec 31 10:03:55 2014
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 00:03:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <20141230230314.GA16630@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20141230230314.GA16630@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1412310003290.84540@localhost>

On Tue, 30 Dec 2014, Larry McVoy wrote:

> Back in the day it was clear(1) I thought.  Or cls?

cls is MS-DOS =p

clear is what it is in current *x, at least.

-uso.


From drsalists at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 12:22:28 2014
From: drsalists at gmail.com (Dan Stromberg)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 18:22:28 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfAGmxNF14WEn+H6fxwByzACs_aJmxzu2bQ0exvCtefc9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
 <CAHYQbfAGmxNF14WEn+H6fxwByzACs_aJmxzu2bQ0exvCtefc9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGGBd_q93vW2XkoV5VojXr0+zfKtLHgdvinGHSv1yORGtOJz-w@mail.gmail.com>

Check out https://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
- especially the "cl" entry.

ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
> oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the context
> of a c program.
>
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>
>> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
>> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
>> Cheers Warren
>>
>> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>>
>>> thx
>>> jake
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> TUHS mailing list
>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>


From mah at mhorton.net  Wed Dec 31 12:33:10 2014
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 18:33:10 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <CAGGBd_q93vW2XkoV5VojXr0+zfKtLHgdvinGHSv1yORGtOJz-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
 <CAHYQbfAGmxNF14WEn+H6fxwByzACs_aJmxzu2bQ0exvCtefc9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_q93vW2XkoV5VojXr0+zfKtLHgdvinGHSv1yORGtOJz-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <54A36066.6080001@mhorton.net>

This is the right info.  Be sure to scroll up to see how to use tgetent, 
tgetstr, and tputs.  You aren't likely to need any padding.

Essentially:
     tgetent using getenv("TERM")    gets you the whole entry from 
/etc/termcap
     tgetstr of "cl"                            gets you the "clear" 
sequence
     tputs                                        outputs the "clear" 
sequence

On 12/30/2014 06:22 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
> Check out https://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
> - especially the "cl" entry.
>
> ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.
>
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:
>> oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the context
>> of a c program.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
>>> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
>>> Cheers Warren
>>>
>>> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>>>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>>>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>>>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>>>
>>>> thx
>>>> jake
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> TUHS mailing list
>>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs



From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 15:44:25 2014
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 00:44:25 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <54A36066.6080001@mhorton.net>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
 <CAHYQbfAGmxNF14WEn+H6fxwByzACs_aJmxzu2bQ0exvCtefc9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_q93vW2XkoV5VojXr0+zfKtLHgdvinGHSv1yORGtOJz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <54A36066.6080001@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfBGYoecEA9hmXSb=zd0OObxsvM5OyZb9OdWxPP75UbHvQ@mail.gmail.com>

Mary, this is exactly what I needed -- good to go now; thank you!

As a side note: Man, what an intimidating can of braindamage I've opened! :)

thanks all!
jake

P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to spend a
little time programming rather than just playing video games when he's near
a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff and is honestly
interested when he understands it and sees it work -- and he even spotted a
bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to raise issues, pull requests,
etc. if you like -- I'm putting him through the git committing and pair
programming paces, so outside interaction would be kinda fun :)

P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..


On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

> This is the right info.  Be sure to scroll up to see how to use tgetent,
> tgetstr, and tputs.  You aren't likely to need any padding.
>
> Essentially:
>     tgetent using getenv("TERM")    gets you the whole entry from
> /etc/termcap
>     tgetstr of "cl"                            gets you the "clear"
> sequence
>     tputs                                        outputs the "clear"
> sequence
>
>
> On 12/30/2014 06:22 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>
>> Check out https://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/
>> html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
>> - especially the "cl" entry.
>>
>> ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:01 PM, Jacob Ritorto <jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> oops, thanks and sorry!  I neglected to mention that this is in the
>>> context
>>> of a c program.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 6:05 PM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).
>>>> http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=2.11BSD/src/ucb/clear.c
>>>> Cheers Warren
>>>>
>>>> On 31 December 2014 08:56:30 AEST, Jacob Ritorto <
>>>> jacob.ritorto at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> , but I can't see how you're supposed to clear the screen on a vt100 in
>>>>> 2.9BSD.  I guess printf'ing ("\033c") would do the trick, but I assumed
>>>>> there was a more proper way; something that leverages the vt100 termcap
>>>>> entry and does the right thing.  Anyone?
>>>>>
>>>>> thx
>>>>> jake
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>> TUHS mailing list
>>>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TUHS mailing list
>>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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From dwalker at doomd.net  Wed Dec 31 16:02:23 2014
From: dwalker at doomd.net (Derrik Walker v2.0)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 01:02:23 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] K&R C on a modern Linux box? ( was Re: I swear! I rtfm'ed )
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfBGYoecEA9hmXSb=zd0OObxsvM5OyZb9OdWxPP75UbHvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
 <CAHYQbfAGmxNF14WEn+H6fxwByzACs_aJmxzu2bQ0exvCtefc9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_q93vW2XkoV5VojXr0+zfKtLHgdvinGHSv1yORGtOJz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <54A36066.6080001@mhorton.net>
 <CAHYQbfBGYoecEA9hmXSb=zd0OObxsvM5OyZb9OdWxPP75UbHvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1420005743.2068.5.camel@doomd.net>

On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 00:44 -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:

> 
> P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
> https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to
> spend a little time programming rather than just playing video games
> when he's near a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff
> and is honestly interested when he understands it and sees it work --
> and he even spotted a bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to
> raise issues, pull requests, etc. if you like -- I'm putting him
> through the git committing and pair programming paces, so outside
> interaction would be kinda fun :)
> 
> 
> P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..
> 
I'm curious, will gcc on a modern Linux system compile K&R c?

Maybe when I get a little time, I might try to see if I can compile it
on a modern Fedora 21 system with gcc. 

BTW: Great job introducing him to such a classic environment. A few
years ago, my now 18 year old had expressed some interest in graphics
programming and was in awe over an SGI O2 I had at the time, so I got
him an Indy.  He played around with a bit of programming, but
unfortunately, he lost interest. 

- Derrik 




From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com  Wed Dec 31 16:16:00 2014
From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 01:16:00 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] K&R C on a modern Linux box? ( was Re: I swear! I
	rtfm'ed )
In-Reply-To: <1420005743.2068.5.camel@doomd.net>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
 <CAHYQbfAGmxNF14WEn+H6fxwByzACs_aJmxzu2bQ0exvCtefc9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_q93vW2XkoV5VojXr0+zfKtLHgdvinGHSv1yORGtOJz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <54A36066.6080001@mhorton.net>
 <CAHYQbfBGYoecEA9hmXSb=zd0OObxsvM5OyZb9OdWxPP75UbHvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1420005743.2068.5.camel@doomd.net>
Message-ID: <CAHYQbfAG5878M0x0jJPB4sD-Ut1dh_Jeuqop7P=r=ZFyL0iBwA@mail.gmail.com>

Hey, thanks, Derrik.
  I don't mess with Linux much (kind of an Illumos junkie by trade ;), but
I bet gcc would.  I did out of curiosity do it with the Macintosh cc (Apple
LLVM version 5.1 (clang-503.0.40) (based on LLVM 3.4svn)) and it throws
warnings about our not type-defining functions because you're apparently
supposed to do this explicitly these days, but it dutifully goes on to
assume int and compiles our test K&R stuff mostly fine.  It does
unfortunately balk pretty badly at the naked returns we initially had,
though.  Wish it didn't because it strikes me as being beautifully simple..

thx again for the encouragement!
jake


On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 1:02 AM, Derrik Walker v2.0 <dwalker at doomd.net>
wrote:

> On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 00:44 -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
>
> >
> > P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
> > https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to
> > spend a little time programming rather than just playing video games
> > when he's near a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff
> > and is honestly interested when he understands it and sees it work --
> > and he even spotted a bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to
> > raise issues, pull requests, etc. if you like -- I'm putting him
> > through the git committing and pair programming paces, so outside
> > interaction would be kinda fun :)
> >
> >
> > P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..
> >
> I'm curious, will gcc on a modern Linux system compile K&R c?
>
> Maybe when I get a little time, I might try to see if I can compile it
> on a modern Fedora 21 system with gcc.
>
> BTW: Great job introducing him to such a classic environment. A few
> years ago, my now 18 year old had expressed some interest in graphics
> programming and was in awe over an SGI O2 I had at the time, so I got
> him an Indy.  He played around with a bit of programming, but
> unfortunately, he lost interest.
>
> - Derrik
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
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From lm at mcvoy.com  Wed Dec 31 16:22:19 2014
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 22:22:19 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Illumos )
Message-ID: <20141231062219.GA21046@mcvoy.com>

Yo Jacob,

I'm ex-sun but I don't know too much about Illumos.   Care to give us 
the summary of why I might care about it?

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 01:16:00AM -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> Hey, thanks, Derrik.
>   I don't mess with Linux much (kind of an Illumos junkie by trade ;), but
> I bet gcc would.  I did out of curiosity do it with the Macintosh cc (Apple
> LLVM version 5.1 (clang-503.0.40) (based on LLVM 3.4svn)) and it throws
> warnings about our not type-defining functions because you're apparently
> supposed to do this explicitly these days, but it dutifully goes on to
> assume int and compiles our test K&R stuff mostly fine.  It does
> unfortunately balk pretty badly at the naked returns we initially had,
> though.  Wish it didn't because it strikes me as being beautifully simple..
> 
> thx again for the encouragement!
> jake
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 1:02 AM, Derrik Walker v2.0 <dwalker at doomd.net>
> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 00:44 -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
> > > https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to
> > > spend a little time programming rather than just playing video games
> > > when he's near a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff
> > > and is honestly interested when he understands it and sees it work --
> > > and he even spotted a bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to
> > > raise issues, pull requests, etc. if you like -- I'm putting him
> > > through the git committing and pair programming paces, so outside
> > > interaction would be kinda fun :)
> > >
> > >
> > > P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..
> > >
> > I'm curious, will gcc on a modern Linux system compile K&R c?
> >
> > Maybe when I get a little time, I might try to see if I can compile it
> > on a modern Fedora 21 system with gcc.
> >
> > BTW: Great job introducing him to such a classic environment. A few
> > years ago, my now 18 year old had expressed some interest in graphics
> > programming and was in awe over an SGI O2 I had at the time, so I got
> > him an Indy.  He played around with a bit of programming, but
> > unfortunately, he lost interest.
> >
> > - Derrik
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TUHS mailing list
> > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> >

> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 


From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Dec 31 16:24:16 2014
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 17:24:16 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.11.1412311711210.25268@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 31 Dec 2014, Warren Toomey wrote:

> 2.11 BSD has clear (1).

Ah, those were the days...  Program some luser's function keys, and, if 
necessary, execute them...

Not that I ever did such a dastardly deed, of course, such as "FORMAT C:", 
but those ANSI escape sequences were amazingly powerful.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Bliss is a MacBook with a FreeBSD server."
http://www.horsfall.org/spam.html (and check the home page whilst you're there)


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Dec 31 16:36:32 2014
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2014 22:36:32 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.11.1412311711210.25268@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.11.1412311711210.25268@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <54AEAFD8-1B3E-4327-98E3-D897B4045C20@orthanc.ca>


On Dec 30, 2014, at 10:24 PM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> Not that I ever did such a dastardly deed, of course, such as "FORMAT C:", 
> but those ANSI escape sequences were amazingly powerful.

Does the infamous (X11 or was it Sunview) 'crumble' still exist in source code form?  I know many "sysadmins" still deserving of it.

And speaking of kick-ass terminals, who else remembers chiselling emacs commands into the keyboard of an Ann Arbor Ambassador in 60x132 mode?!?  I loved that keyboard.  They could hear me pounding on it a mile down the road :-)

--lyndon

From dwalker at doomd.net  Wed Dec 31 17:52:46 2014
From: dwalker at doomd.net (Derrik Walker v2.0)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 02:52:46 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] K&R C on a modern Linux box? ( was Re: I swear! I
 rtfm'ed )
In-Reply-To: <CAHYQbfAG5878M0x0jJPB4sD-Ut1dh_Jeuqop7P=r=ZFyL0iBwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHYQbfBF5ro-SCebomP0MOnC9ngSXmX59S6wsC=tZEcMdhzT_A@mail.gmail.com>
 <0CD3A100-6CDD-449C-8FD0-A3F93F421A0D@tuhs.org>
 <CAHYQbfAGmxNF14WEn+H6fxwByzACs_aJmxzu2bQ0exvCtefc9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGGBd_q93vW2XkoV5VojXr0+zfKtLHgdvinGHSv1yORGtOJz-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <54A36066.6080001@mhorton.net>
 <CAHYQbfBGYoecEA9hmXSb=zd0OObxsvM5OyZb9OdWxPP75UbHvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1420005743.2068.5.camel@doomd.net>
 <CAHYQbfAG5878M0x0jJPB4sD-Ut1dh_Jeuqop7P=r=ZFyL0iBwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1420012366.2068.13.camel@doomd.net>

On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 01:16 -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> Hey, thanks, Derrik.
>   I don't mess with Linux much (kind of an Illumos junkie by trade ;),
> but I bet gcc would.  I did out of curiosity do it with the Macintosh
> cc (Apple LLVM version 5.1 (clang-503.0.40) (based on LLVM 3.4svn))
> and it throws warnings about our not type-defining functions because
> you're apparently supposed to do this explicitly these days, but it
> dutifully goes on to assume int and compiles our test K&R stuff mostly
> fine.  It does unfortunately balk pretty badly at the naked returns we
> initially had, though.  Wish it didn't because it strikes me as being
> beautifully simple..
> 
It compiles and runs with no warnings or any issues with gcc 4.9.2 on
Fedora 21.

Like so many x-gener Linux guys, I was a UNIX guy in the early '90's,
and just fell into Linux.  

So, you are running BSD 2.11, on a real PDP-11 ( or is it a VAX ),  in
your house? Or are you using an emulator? Either way, that's still
probably no small feat.

I have a Mac Plus emulator ( MiniVMac ) that I installed MachTen on,
just to see if I could get it running, and it works.

( MachTen is this odd sort of UNIX that was available for the Mac in the
'90's, that runs on top of Mac OS ).
> 
> thx again for the encouragement!
> jake
> 
No problem.  Anyone getting the younger ones into the older technology
is good! 

- Derrik 




From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Wed Dec 31 19:28:35 2014
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 22:28:35 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Illumos )
In-Reply-To: <20141231062219.GA21046@mcvoy.com>
References: <20141231062219.GA21046@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <1420018115.54a3c1c32faaa@www.paradise.net.nz>

Illumos is a branch (or fork: I'm not sure which word is most appropriate here)
of OpenSolaris: if my memory serves me right (always a bit ask) it's a
debianized OpenSolaris
http://wiki.illumos.org/display/illumos/illumos+Home

OpenIndiana is another such project
http://openindiana.org/

and I think there are some other OpenSolaris branch/fork tree available, but i
don't know anything about them. Their primary importance, from my POV, is that
they keep the POSIX space open for experimentation: a Linux monoculture's as
deadening as a MS Windows monoculture or a [choose your own poison] monoculture ...

Wesley Parish

Quoting Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>:

> Yo Jacob,
> 
> I'm ex-sun but I don't know too much about Illumos. Care to give us 
> the summary of why I might care about it?
> 
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 01:16:00AM -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> > Hey, thanks, Derrik.
> > I don't mess with Linux much (kind of an Illumos junkie by trade ;),
> but
> > I bet gcc would. I did out of curiosity do it with the Macintosh cc
> (Apple
> > LLVM version 5.1 (clang-503.0.40) (based on LLVM 3.4svn)) and it
> throws
> > warnings about our not type-defining functions because you're
> apparently
> > supposed to do this explicitly these days, but it dutifully goes on
> to
> > assume int and compiles our test K&R stuff mostly fine. It does
> > unfortunately balk pretty badly at the naked returns we initially
> had,
> > though. Wish it didn't because it strikes me as being beautifully
> simple..
> > 
> > thx again for the encouragement!
> > jake
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 1:02 AM, Derrik Walker v2.0
> <dwalker at doomd.net>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 00:44 -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to
> at
> > > > https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb. I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to
> > > > spend a little time programming rather than just playing video
> games
> > > > when he's near a computer. He'a actually getting through this
> stuff
> > > > and is honestly interested when he understands it and sees it work
> --
> > > > and he even spotted a bug before me this afternoon! Feel free to
> > > > raise issues, pull requests, etc. if you like -- I'm putting him
> > > > through the git committing and pair programming paces, so outside
> > > > interaction would be kinda fun :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > P.P.S. We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..
> > > >
> > > I'm curious, will gcc on a modern Linux system compile K&R c?
> > >
> > > Maybe when I get a little time, I might try to see if I can compile
> it
> > > on a modern Fedora 21 system with gcc.
> > >
> > > BTW: Great job introducing him to such a classic environment. A few
> > > years ago, my now 18 year old had expressed some interest in
> graphics
> > > programming and was in awe over an SGI O2 I had at the time, so I
> got
> > > him an Indy. He played around with a bit of programming, but
> > > unfortunately, he lost interest.
> > >
> > > - Derrik
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TUHS mailing list
> > > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> > >
> 
> > _______________________________________________
> > TUHS mailing list
> > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy 	 lm at mcvoy.com http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuh s
>  



From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Dec 31 19:46:20 2014
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 02:46:20 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Illumos )
In-Reply-To: <20141231062219.GA21046@mcvoy.com>
References: <20141231062219.GA21046@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <201412310946.sBV9kKrb010177@freefriends.org>

Hi Larry.

Illumos is at least one continuation of Open Solaris after Oracle pulled
the plug on it. There are others.  It looks to me like an aim is to
fill the Enterprise OS slot.  I think many now-former Sun / Solaris kernel
guys are working on it.

I have not messed with it myself, I'm pretty happy running Linux
these days, but if you want the Enterprise features there (zFS, zones,
whatever else), it's probably worth looking into.

That's about all I know - people with more experience with it should
chime in. :-)

Arnold

Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Yo Jacob,
>
> I'm ex-sun but I don't know too much about Illumos.   Care to give us 
> the summary of why I might care about it?
>
> On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 01:16:00AM -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> > Hey, thanks, Derrik.
> >   I don't mess with Linux much (kind of an Illumos junkie by trade ;), but
> > I bet gcc would.  I did out of curiosity do it with the Macintosh cc (Apple
> > LLVM version 5.1 (clang-503.0.40) (based on LLVM 3.4svn)) and it throws
> > warnings about our not type-defining functions because you're apparently
> > supposed to do this explicitly these days, but it dutifully goes on to
> > assume int and compiles our test K&R stuff mostly fine.  It does
> > unfortunately balk pretty badly at the naked returns we initially had,
> > though.  Wish it didn't because it strikes me as being beautifully simple..
> > 
> > thx again for the encouragement!
> > jake
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 1:02 AM, Derrik Walker v2.0 <dwalker at doomd.net>
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > On Wed, 2014-12-31 at 00:44 -0500, Jacob Ritorto wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
> > > > https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to
> > > > spend a little time programming rather than just playing video games
> > > > when he's near a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff
> > > > and is honestly interested when he understands it and sees it work --
> > > > and he even spotted a bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to
> > > > raise issues, pull requests, etc. if you like -- I'm putting him
> > > > through the git committing and pair programming paces, so outside
> > > > interaction would be kinda fun :)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..
> > > >
> > > I'm curious, will gcc on a modern Linux system compile K&R c?
> > >
> > > Maybe when I get a little time, I might try to see if I can compile it
> > > on a modern Fedora 21 system with gcc.
> > >
> > > BTW: Great job introducing him to such a classic environment. A few
> > > years ago, my now 18 year old had expressed some interest in graphics
> > > programming and was in awe over an SGI O2 I had at the time, so I got
> > > him an Indy.  He played around with a bit of programming, but
> > > unfortunately, he lost interest.
> > >
> > > - Derrik
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TUHS mailing list
> > > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> > >
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > TUHS mailing list
> > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Dec 31 20:37:41 2014
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 11:37:41 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <mailman.110.1420006566.3354.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <mailman.110.1420006566.3354.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <54A3D1F5.3000105@update.uu.se>

The information give is correct. You could possibly argue that you 
shouldn't be using those functions, but should be using the curses(3) 
library instead, which in turn uses this stuff... But it's all up to how 
complex you want to be. :-)

	Johnny

On 2014-12-31 07:16, Jacob Ritorto<jacob.ritorto at gmail.com> wrote:

> Mary, this is exactly what I needed -- good to go now; thank you!
>
> As a side note: Man, what an intimidating can of braindamage I've opened!:)
>
> thanks all!
> jake
>
> P.S. if anyone's bored enough, you can check out what we're up to at
> https://github.com/srphtygr/dhb.  I'm trying to get my 11yo kid to spend a
> little time programming rather than just playing video games when he's near
> a computer.  He'a actually getting through this stuff and is honestly
> interested when he understands it and sees it work -- and he even spotted a
> bug before me this afternoon!  Feel free to raise issues, pull requests,
> etc. if you like -- I'm putting him through the git committing and pair
> programming paces, so outside interaction would be kinda fun:)
>
> P.P.S.  We're actually using 2.11bsd after all..
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 9:33 PM, Mary Ann Horton<mah at mhorton.net>  wrote:
>
>> >This is the right info.  Be sure to scroll up to see how to use tgetent,
>> >tgetstr, and tputs.  You aren't likely to need any padding.
>> >
>> >Essentially:
>> >     tgetent using getenv("TERM")    gets you the whole entry from
>> >/etc/termcap
>> >     tgetstr of "cl"                            gets you the "clear"
>> >sequence
>> >     tputs                                        outputs the "clear"
>> >sequence
>> >
>> >
>> >On 12/30/2014 06:22 PM, Dan Stromberg wrote:
>> >
>>> >>Check outhttps://www.gnu.org/software/termutils/manual/termcap-1.3/
>>> >>html_mono/termcap.html#SEC30
>>> >>- especially the "cl" entry.
>>> >>
>>> >>ISTR the database being at /etc/termcap normally.


-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Dec 31 21:13:51 2014
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 04:13:51 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] I swear! I rtfm'ed
In-Reply-To: <54A3D1F5.3000105@update.uu.se>
References: <mailman.110.1420006566.3354.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <54A3D1F5.3000105@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <201412311113.sBVBDpvh024158@freefriends.org>

Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:

> The information give is correct. You could possibly argue that you 
> shouldn't be using those functions, but should be using the curses(3) 
> library instead, which in turn uses this stuff... But it's all up to how 
> complex you want to be. :-)

I don't doubt that Mary Ann has forgotten more about curses and
termcap/termlib than most of us will ever know...

Arnold


From cowan at mercury.ccil.org  Wed Dec 31 23:13:35 2014
From: cowan at mercury.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2014 08:13:35 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Illumos )
In-Reply-To: <1420018115.54a3c1c32faaa@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <20141231062219.GA21046@mcvoy.com>
 <1420018115.54a3c1c32faaa@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <20141231131335.GA26926@mercury.ccil.org>

Wesley Parish scripsit:

> [The] primary importance [of Solaris forks], from my POV, is that they
> keep the POSIX space open for experimentation: a Linux monoculture's
> as deadening as a MS Windows monoculture or a \[choose your own poison\]
> monoculture ...

Well, BSD does that.  But Solaris is the only descendant of System V for
which we have source, which means that in non-Posix cases it can give
us helpful information how the original Unix code fared after leaving
the Labs.  By comparison, both Linux and BSD are clones.

-- 
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        cowan at ccil.org
Rather than making ill-conceived suggestions for improvement based on
uninformed guesses about established conventions in a field of study with
which familiarity is limited, it is sometimes better to stick to merely
observing the usage and listening to the explanations offered, inserting
only questions as needed to fill in gaps in understanding. --Peter Constable


