From chd_1 at nktelco.net  Sun Jan  6 09:19:58 2002
From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman)
Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 18:19:58 -0500
Subject: [pups] Qbus IDE adapter
Message-ID: <3C378A1E.39CAFFC0@nktelco.net>

I have been playing with a Qbus to IDE drive adapter for a while, and
with some free time this Christmas, I got around to working on it and
documenting it.

You can find information here: http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/

In summary, I have designed and built a Q22-Bus to ATA disk adapter and
written drivers for 2.11BSD on my microPDP-11/73. The adapter is PIO
only (for now) and the driver only works with LBA capable disks.

I posted this to the NetBSD/vax mailing list last week. If there is
sufficient interest, we might be able to get boards made. Someone is
writing a NetBSD driver and I have a 2.11BSD driver already.

-chuck


From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Jan 17 17:36:05 2002
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: 17 Jan 2002 08:36:05 +0100
Subject: [pups] GCC
Message-ID: <85r8opmntm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Hello,

Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11?

-- 
Lars Brinkhoff          http://lars.nocrew.org/     Linux, GCC, PDP-10
Brinkhoff Consulting    http://www.brinkhoff.se/    programming


From agrier at poofygoof.com  Fri Jan 18 16:53:20 2002
From: agrier at poofygoof.com (Aaron J. Grier)
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 22:53:20 -0800
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <no.id>; from lars@nocrew.org on Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:36:05AM +0100
Message-ID: <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>

On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:36:05AM +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11?

on the PDP or cross-compiled?  (will gcc run under 2.11?)

-- 
  Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier at poofygoof.com
          "Making people dance so hard their pants almost fall
                 off is kind of fun."  -- David Evans


From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl  Fri Jan 18 17:07:25 2002
From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 08:07:25 +0100
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>; from agrier@poofygoof.com on Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:53:20PM -0800
References: <no.id> <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>
Message-ID: <20020118080725.A91029@freebie.xs4all.nl>

On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:53:20PM -0800, Aaron J. Grier wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:36:05AM +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11?
> 
> on the PDP or cross-compiled?  (will gcc run under 2.11?)

On the PDP: very unlikely. gcc is far too big to fit in even split
ID I would assume?!

-- 
|   / o / /_  _   		email: 	wilko at FreeBSD.org
|/|/ / / /(  (_)  Bulte		Arnhem, the Netherlands


From lars at nocrew.org  Fri Jan 18 19:06:10 2002
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: 18 Jan 2002 10:06:10 +0100
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <20020118080725.A91029@freebie.xs4all.nl>
References: <no.id> <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>
	<20020118080725.A91029@freebie.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <85d708jaf1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Wilko Bulte <wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl> writes:
> On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:53:20PM -0800, Aaron J. Grier wrote:
> > On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:36:05AM +0100, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> > > Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11?
> > on the PDP or cross-compiled?  (will gcc run under 2.11?)

Cross compilation, I assume.  Doesn't matter to me, I just want to
know if anyone's using it.

> On the PDP: very unlikely. gcc is far too big to fit in even split
> ID I would assume?!

Yes.  Dunno if it could be made to work with overlays or something,
but it'd be very slow.

-- 
Lars Brinkhoff          http://lars.nocrew.org/     Linux, GCC, PDP-10
Brinkhoff Consulting    http://www.brinkhoff.se/    programming


From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Fri Jan 18 22:44:17 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 22:44:17 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> from "Aaron J.
 Grier" at "Jan 17, 2002 10:53:20 pm"
Message-ID: <200201181244.g0ICiHE88646@minnie.tuhs.org>

In article by Aaron J. Grier:
> > Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11?
> on the PDP or cross-compiled?  (will gcc run under 2.11?)

Not until you can get a 32-bit process address space and virtual paging
on the PDP-11 :-)

	Warren


From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Sat Jan 19 00:49:20 2002
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 09:49:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <200201181244.g0ICiHE88646@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20020118094507.K91372-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>

Not only is size a problem, but even as a cross-compiler it is lacking.
I am pretty sure support for the PDP stopped many releases ago and even
at the peak of support I don't believe there was ever as or ld support
for the PDP.  I have considered reviving the PDP cross compiling work
and looking at writting a translator to take the output from -S (which
I am quite certain would be AT&T format) and convert it to Macro-11.
I usually end out weighing this against the work necessary to just write
a C-compiler for the PDP (using Small C as a starting point).  If only
I could retire so I'ld have the free time.  :-)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>



From lars at nocrew.org  Sat Jan 19 01:31:03 2002
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: 18 Jan 2002 16:31:03 +0100
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <20020118094507.K91372-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>
References: <20020118094507.K91372-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>
Message-ID: <85y9ivislk.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Bill Gunshannon <bill at cs.scranton.edu> writes:
> I don't believe there was ever as or ld support for the PDP.

I added PDP-11 support to GNU binutils last year.  It's not well
tested, though.

-- 
Lars Brinkhoff          http://lars.nocrew.org/     Linux, GCC, PDP-10
Brinkhoff Consulting    http://www.brinkhoff.se/    programming


From agrier at poofygoof.com  Sat Jan 19 04:06:37 2002
From: agrier at poofygoof.com (Aaron J. Grier)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 10:06:37 -0800
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <200201181244.g0ICiHE88646@minnie.tuhs.org>; from wkt@minnie.tuhs.org on Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:44:17PM +1000
References: <20020117225320.A16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> <200201181244.g0ICiHE88646@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20020118100637.B16701@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>

On Fri, Jan 18, 2002 at 10:44:17PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Aaron J. Grier:
> > > Is anyone using GCC to compile code for the PDP-11?
> > on the PDP or cross-compiled?  (will gcc run under 2.11?)
> 
> Not until you can get a 32-bit process address space and virtual paging
> on the PDP-11 :-)

isn't that what VAX is all about?  ;)

-- 
  Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier at poofygoof.com
          "Making people dance so hard their pants almost fall
                 off is kind of fun."  -- David Evans


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Jan 19 05:00:19 2002
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 20:00:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <20020118094507.K91372-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201181959300.14560-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> Not only is size a problem, but even as a cross-compiler it is lacking.
> I am pretty sure support for the PDP stopped many releases ago and even
> at the peak of support I don't believe there was ever as or ld support
> for the PDP.  I have considered reviving the PDP cross compiling work
> and looking at writting a translator to take the output from -S (which
> I am quite certain would be AT&T format) and convert it to Macro-11.
> I usually end out weighing this against the work necessary to just write
> a C-compiler for the PDP (using Small C as a starting point).  If only
> I could retire so I'ld have the free time.  :-)

Two things.
1. DECUS C might be a better starting point.
2. With DECUS C, you also have an as, which might fit the bill without
having to convert stuff to Macro-11.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From engdahl at cle.ab.com  Sat Jan 19 07:54:03 2002
From: engdahl at cle.ab.com (Jonathan Engdahl)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 16:54:03 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201181959300.14560-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <009f01c1a06a$a4c47300$4acb9782@ra.rockwell.com>

Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, and ANSI
compliant.

--
Jonathan Engdahl            Rockwell Automation
Principal Research Engineer 1 Allen-Bradley Drive
Advanced Technology         Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 USA
Mayfield Heights Labs       engdahl at safeaccess.com 440-646-7326





From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Sat Jan 19 08:13:26 2002
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:13:26 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
Message-ID: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>

Jonathan Engdahl:

  Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, and ANSI
  compliant.

lcc's a good compiler; it has become cc in my own peculiar Ancient UNIX
environment.  But my environment is on VAXes, not PDP-11s; the lcc I use
probably cannot be compiled to a core compiler binary of less than about
180KB, of which 136KB is text, and that is without any real code generators.
(For those who know lcc: I am using a slightly-hacked-up lcc 3.6; the
180KB binary includes just the symbolic and null code generators, not
the enormous one I ended up with for the VAX.)

On the other hand, it is probably easier to split lcc into overlays or
multiple passes to make it fit on a PDP-11 than to do the same to gcc;
and lcc works fine as a cross-compiler.  And it's a good solid ANSI
compiler; enough so that it is a little annoying to use it on heritage
code (it grumbles, correctly, if a function returns no value and wasn't
declared void), and helpful or very painful (depending on your point of
view) when used on really old code that is sleazy about mixing types of
pointers in procedure arguments, or reusing one structure as part of another,
or the like.  I had an interesting time a few months ago getting an old
version of tbl to compile cleanly and produce correct results under lcc;
the program contained some ancient constructs that are truly remarkable
to look back on, especially for those of us who started out programming
that way and learned better the hard way ...

If I were going to work with PDP-11s, I would probably use lcc as a
cross-compiler myself, after writing or snitching a code generator of
course.

Norman Wilson


From bwc at borf.com  Sat Jan 19 08:29:11 2002
From: bwc at borf.com (bwc at borf.com)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 17:29:11 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
Message-ID: <200201182227.IAA22246@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>

I got Dennis' sixth edtion compiler to compile not long ago.
It's definitly not ANSI C, in fact it's not quite K&R C, but
I really like coding in it.  My advice would be to start there.

Just check out the chapter on precidence parsing in the dragon book
before you work on the compiler.

  Brantley Coile


From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Sat Jan 19 10:08:06 2002
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2002 19:08:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <200201182227.IAA22246@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20020118190639.Y92571-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 bwc at borf.com wrote:

> Just check out the chapter on precidence parsing in the dragon book
> before you work on the compiler.

The dragon book!!  The best book on compilers ever written.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>



From grog at lemis.com  Sat Jan 19 10:53:51 2002
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:23:51 +1030
Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC)
In-Reply-To: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>
References: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Friday, 18 January 2002 at 17:13:26 -0500, norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca wrote:
> Jonathan Engdahl:
>
>   Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, and ANSI
>   compliant.
>
> lcc's a good compiler; it has become cc in my own peculiar Ancient UNIX
> environment.

It also has the advantage that there's a good book about it describing
exactly how it works: "A retargetable C compiler: Design and
implementation" by Christopher Fraser and David Hanson
(Benjamin/Cummings, 1995, ISBN 0-8053-1670-1).

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From lars at nocrew.org  Sat Jan 19 18:48:10 2002
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: 19 Jan 2002 09:48:10 +0100
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201181959300.14560-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <85d706iv5h.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> writes:
> DECUS C might be a better starting point.

norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca writes:
> I would probably use lcc as a cross-compiler myself, after writing
> or snitching a code generator of course.

bwc at borf.com writes:
> I got Dennis' sixth edtion compiler to compile not long ago.
> My advice would be to start there.

How about the 2.11BSD compiler?  

-- 
Lars Brinkhoff          http://lars.nocrew.org/     Linux, GCC, PDP-10
Brinkhoff Consulting    http://www.brinkhoff.se/    programming


From lothar.felten at gmx.net  Sat Jan 19 21:43:37 2002
From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 12:43:37 +0100
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
Message-ID: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINEEDLCBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>

hi there,
maybe someone can help me installing 2.11BSD
on a PDP-11/83.

my problem:
the standalone disklabel-programm stops when
displaying the MSCP disk
information.

in the console ODT i write/see:
BOOT MU0
Starting system from mu0
83Boot from tms(0,0,0) at 0174500
:tms(0,1)
disklabel
Disk? ra(0,0)
d(isplay) D(efault) m(odify) w(rite) q(uit)?
d
type:MSCP
disk:RD54
flags:
bytes/sector: 512
sectors/reack: 17
tr

and then it just stops, right after "tr", but
the RUN led stays on.
when i try to disklabel a RL02 disk i get
invalid disk (for rl(0,1)) or a
system stop (for rl(0,0) with RUN led off).

i don´t know if this is a hardware (bus?)
error, or maybe the tape is bad.
the tapes i use are unused original dec TK50
tapes, i made several ones, because i thought
it might be a tape error, but
all tapes are the same.

hardware:
PDP-11/83, 4megs of ram, TK50, two RD54
(maxtor), two RL02 disks.
qbus cards (top to bottom):
*cpu (quad)
*memory (quad)
*controller for RL02 disks (quad)
*controller for RD54 disks (double)
*controller for TK50 (double)
*network controller (double)

i didn´t find a kind of terminator, but i
didn´t change the order of the
cards since i picked the box up.
there are no empty slots between the cards,
and i´m not sure if the Qbus
need a special terminator.

i made a TK50 boottape on my DECstation
5000/200. i got the software from
the pups archive, and made the tape with the
"maketape" program.

any idea welcome.

regards,

--lothar



From SHOPPA at TRAILING-EDGE.COM  Sun Jan 20 00:54:35 2002
From: SHOPPA at TRAILING-EDGE.COM (SHOPPA at TRAILING-EDGE.COM)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 9:54:35 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
Message-ID: <020119095435.21e004b5@TRAILING-EDGE.COM>

Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> writes:
> DECUS C might be a better starting point.

DECUS C is kind-of a funny case.  Whereas most C compilers are
traditionally maintained and distributed as C source code, DECUS C
is distributed and maintained in PDP-11 assembly language.

For other C compilers, a significant milestone was when they were
rewritten in C and compiled themselves.  DECUS C is the odd guy out because
it never tried to reach this milestone.  In some sense this is a good thing,
because it lets you build it on a machine without any access to any C compiler.

Tim.


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Jan 20 01:12:37 2002
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:12:37 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <020119095435.21e004b5@TRAILING-EDGE.COM>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201191606470.14560-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 SHOPPA at TRAILING-EDGE.COM wrote:

> Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> writes:
> > DECUS C might be a better starting point.
> 
> DECUS C is kind-of a funny case.  Whereas most C compilers are
> traditionally maintained and distributed as C source code, DECUS C
> is distributed and maintained in PDP-11 assembly language.

True.

> For other C compilers, a significant milestone was when they were
> rewritten in C and compiled themselves.  DECUS C is the odd guy out because
> it never tried to reach this milestone.  In some sense this is a good thing,
> because it lets you build it on a machine without any access to any C compiler.

Which definitely is a good thing in this case. Since most systems don't
have a C compiler anyway, the first compiler have to get down there
someway, and MACRO-11 is the only language you *know* exist.

I'm soon done with a cleanup of DECUS-C by the way. I've tried to collect
all the different versions I can find, and incorporated my own fixes as
well. This version will support I/D space correctly in RSX (which no other
version except my in-house hacks have done), will have a working profiler
again, and also supports RMS and DAP. Fun fun...
I'm testing it right now, and most things looks like they are working like
a charm.
However, if someone have plenty of time, and an RSTS/E or RT-11 system
around, I'd sure appreciate some help. I've tried to keep those parts
up-to-date as well, but I cannot test, or fix broken things.

This compiler have been a mess for many years now... About time it got
some cleanup.

Oh. And I don't know if Allan Baldwin (sp?) have some extra hacks in for
his IP-stack, and I haven't even investigated.
Anyone know?

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Sun Jan 20 02:05:02 2002
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 16:05:02 GMT
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: "lothar felten" <lothar.felten@gmx.net>
        "[pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 19, 12:43)
References: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINEEDLCBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <10201191605.ZM9787@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Jan 19, 12:43, lothar felten wrote:

> i don´t know if this is a hardware (bus?)
> error, or maybe the tape is bad.
> the tapes i use are unused original dec TK50
> tapes, i made several ones, because i thought
> it might be a tape error, but
> all tapes are the same.
>
> hardware:
> PDP-11/83, 4megs of ram, TK50, two RD54
> (maxtor), two RL02 disks.
> qbus cards (top to bottom):
> *cpu (quad)
> *memory (quad)
> *controller for RL02 disks (quad)
> *controller for RD54 disks (double)
> *controller for TK50 (double)
> *network controller (double)

FWIW, I don't know about the tape error, but that layout looks OK apart
from the fact that if it's an 11/83, the memory shold be in the first slot
and the CPU in the second.  The essential difference between an 11/73 and
an 11/83 is that the 11/83 uses PMI memory.  Assuming your backplane is the
right one, in a BA23 or BA123 box, and that your memory is a single 4MB
board, you should swap them round, otherwise what you actually have is an
11/73.

I assume your RD54 controller is a genuine DEC RQDX3, so it's in the right
place.  It's possible you have an old version of the firmware on it, but it
should still work even if you do.

> i didn´t find a kind of terminator, but i
> didn´t change the order of the
> cards since i picked the box up.
> there are no empty slots between the cards,
> and i´m not sure if the Qbus
> need a special terminator.

There normally isn't an extra terminator in an 11/73 or 11/83, unless you
add an expansion backplane.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From steve at smdconsulting.com  Sun Jan 20 02:22:31 2002
From: steve at smdconsulting.com (Davidson, Steve)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 11:22:31 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
Message-ID: <51E99925D01CD511B2FA00A0244EE8EED752@SMDCONSULTING01>

Johnny,

I have access to both RT-11 and RSTS/E systems here.  I would be happy to
give the testing a shot.  My preference would be RT first, and then if you
get no other takers, RSTS.

Regards,

			Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Johnny Billquist [SMTP:bqt at update.uu.se]
> Sent:	Saturday, January 19, 2002 10:13
> To:	SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com
> Cc:	PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject:	Re: [pups] Re: GCC
> 
> On Sat, 19 Jan 2002 SHOPPA at TRAILING-EDGE.COM wrote:
> 
> > Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> writes:
> > > DECUS C might be a better starting point.
> > 
> > DECUS C is kind-of a funny case.  Whereas most C compilers are
> > traditionally maintained and distributed as C source code, DECUS C
> > is distributed and maintained in PDP-11 assembly language.
> 
> True.
> 
> > For other C compilers, a significant milestone was when they were
> > rewritten in C and compiled themselves.  DECUS C is the odd guy out
> because
> > it never tried to reach this milestone.  In some sense this is a good
> thing,
> > because it lets you build it on a machine without any access to any C
> compiler.
> 
> Which definitely is a good thing in this case. Since most systems don't
> have a C compiler anyway, the first compiler have to get down there
> someway, and MACRO-11 is the only language you *know* exist.
> 
> I'm soon done with a cleanup of DECUS-C by the way. I've tried to collect
> all the different versions I can find, and incorporated my own fixes as
> well. This version will support I/D space correctly in RSX (which no other
> version except my in-house hacks have done), will have a working profiler
> again, and also supports RMS and DAP. Fun fun...
> I'm testing it right now, and most things looks like they are working like
> a charm.
> However, if someone have plenty of time, and an RSTS/E or RT-11 system
> around, I'd sure appreciate some help. I've tried to keep those parts
> up-to-date as well, but I cannot test, or fix broken things.
> 
> This compiler have been a mess for many years now... About time it got
> some cleanup.
> 
> Oh. And I don't know if Allan Baldwin (sp?) have some extra hacks in for
> his IP-stack, and I haven't even investigated.
> Anyone know?
> 
> 	Johnny
> 
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sat Jan 19 23:49:19 2002
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 14:49:19 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINEEDLCBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <200201191349.g0JDnJU01148@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 19 Jan, lothar felten wrote:

> hardware:
> PDP-11/83, 4megs of ram, TK50, two RD54
> (maxtor), two RL02 disks.
> qbus cards (top to bottom):
> *cpu (quad)
> *memory (quad)
> *controller for RL02 disks (quad)
> *controller for RD54 disks (double)
> *controller for TK50 (double)
> *network controller (double)
What enclosure? BA23? If yes you have empty slots between the cards as
this box has 3 Q/CD slots on top and 5 Q/Q slots below. Have a look at
the QBus HOWTO at http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/
-- 



tschuess,
          Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz



From lothar.felten at gmx.net  Sun Jan 20 05:47:03 2002
From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 20:47:03 +0100
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
Message-ID: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINKEDPCBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>

hi there!

well the pdp was once a pdp 11/23+ so
enclosure and backplane should be
the same as a 11/23 (ba 23). backplane should
be Q22/CD configuration, but
i´ll open the box and look for the 501-
number to be sure. on the back there
is a sticker saying this is a 11/73. the
cpu-board is a 11/83.(i´ll pass
the number too). do all 11/83 use PMI ? but
the memory seems to work, or has
the cpu board some memory on it?
when i picked up the box they booted it, i
suppose this configuration was the
way they used it there and should have
worked.
the RD54 controller has a 50pin ribboncable
wich goes to a small board (wich
was hanging on the backside) and a small
frontpanel (from a 11/83 or 73) was
hanging on it. it looks like

*************
*     *'''''*    O is a round hole (to hold a
batch?)
*  O  *'''''*    '' is a big hole (power
switch i suppose)
*     *'''''*
*************
*  X     B  *    X = run on/off ?(green led)
B = reset ?
*  X     X  *    X = write protect(red led) X
= online(green led)    for disk 0 ?
*  X     X  *    X = write protect(red led) X
= online(green led)    for disk 1 ?
*************
X is a switch with led B is a button with led
i never saw a pdp with this frontpanel, and
since there is nothing written on it,
i tried to compare with a picture found on
the web, but i´m not sure if i´m right.
can someone tell me if i´m right ?
i asked those guys from where i picked up the
box, but they told me that the last guy
using the pdp left some years ago, and in
1999 they just powered it off. this explains
also the small paper sticking on the pdp that
showed how to login and shutdown the box.
root password is written on it *g*.

tomorrow i´ll open the box again.

thanks for your fast response.

-- lothar


FWIW, I don't know about the tape error, but
that layout looks OK apart
>from the fact that if it's an 11/83, the
memory shold be in the first slot
and the CPU in the second.  The essential
difference between an 11/73 and
an 11/83 is that the 11/83 uses PMI memory.
Assuming your backplane is the
right one, in a BA23 or BA123 box, and that
your memory is a single 4MB
board, you should swap them round, otherwise
what you actually have is an
11/73.

I assume your RD54 controller is a genuine
DEC RQDX3, so it's in the right
place.  It's possible you have an old version
of the firmware on it, but it
should still work even if you do.

all the planes in the backplane are genuine
dec parts.

--
Pete

What enclosure? BA23? If yes you have empty
slots between the cards as
this box has 3 Q/CD slots on top and 5 Q/Q
slots below. Have a look at
the QBus HOWTO at
http://vaxarchive.sevensages.org/
--

tschuess,
          Jochen



From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Sun Jan 20 07:19:08 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:19:08 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: GCC
In-Reply-To: <85d706iv5h.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> from Lars Brinkhoff at "Jan 19,
 2002 09:48:10 am"
Message-ID: <200201192119.g0JLJ8i00979@minnie.tuhs.org>

In article by Lars Brinkhoff:
> norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca writes:
> > I would probably use lcc as a cross-compiler myself, after writing
> > or snitching a code generator of course.
> 
> bwc at borf.com writes:
> > I got Dennis' sixth edtion compiler to compile not long ago.
> > My advice would be to start there.
> 
> How about the 2.11BSD compiler?  

The next question is, why to do this, and for which operating system(s)?

If it's to get an ANSI C compiler, or some extra performance, then I
can see the point. If it's to ditch a `contaminated' compiler, then
I can see a few difficulties, especially if the target is 2.11BSD

The 2.11BSD linker knows an awful lot about overlays, and any replacement
would need to do the same.

Anway, that's my $0.02. I thought about porting lcc to 2.11BSD ages ago,
but I've never had the time to do it.

Cheers,
	Warren


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Sun Jan 20 08:18:32 2002
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 22:18:32 GMT
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: "lothar felten" <lothar.felten@gmx.net>
        "Re: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 19, 20:47)
References: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINKEDPCBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <10201192218.ZM9996@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Jan 19, 20:47, lothar felten wrote:
> hi there!
>
> well the pdp was once a pdp 11/23+ so
> enclosure and backplane should be
> the same as a 11/23 (ba 23).

If I were to be really picky, I'd say you meant microPDP-11/23.  11/23-plus
would mean a BA11-S enclosure with a different type of backplane :-)

> backplane should
> be Q22/CD configuration, but
> i´ll open the box and look for the 501-
> number to be sure.

Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part.  The backplane itself has a
model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A.

In an H9728-A the top three slots are Q22/CD-interconnect, and the rest are
Q22/Q22 serpentine (the 11/23-plus backplanes are different).  When I
replied to your earlier email I assumed you just gave the order of the
boards, not the layout.  The layout should be (reverse the positions of CPU
and memory if you wish):

    ---------KDJ11-B-CPU---------
    ---------MSV11-memory--------
    ------------RLV12------------
    ----RQDX3----   ----TQK50----
        empty       ----DEQNA----

I'm guessing you have a single memory board, probably an MSV11-Q (M7551),
and an RLV12 (M8061, one quad board) rather than an RLV11 (two quad boards)
-- if not, that makes a difference to the layout.  I'm also guessing at a
DEQNA (M7504) rather than any other Ethernet controller, but it makes no
difference to the placement, so long as it's a dual-height board.  If you
added another dual-height board it would go under the RQDX3 (M7555), the
next would go under that, and the next under the DELQA, etc.  The
arrangement of the slots after the first three is called "serpentine" or
occasionally "zig-zag".

> on the back there
> is a sticker saying this is a 11/73. the
> cpu-board is a 11/83.(i´ll pass
> the number too).

All the KDJ11-B processors, whether 11/73 or 11/83, use the same printed
circuit board and module number.  There were some differences about whether
an FPU could be fitted (due to an error on the original boards); those that
would not take an FPU were only sold as KDJ11-BC and all had 15MHz clocks.
 Others with 15MHz clocks were sold as KDJ11-BB (upgradeable but FPU not
fitted).  There are also some with 18MHz clocks, these were sold as
KDJ11-BE, -BF, or higher.  Normally an 11/83 has a KDJ11-BE or higher
suffix.  Early 11/73 are 15MHz.  Just to add to the confusion, the -Bx
suffix actually refers to the EPROMs on the board, not the clock speed or
the FPU.  The *only* difference between a normal KDJ11-BE or -BF or -BH is
the firmware in the EPROMs.

However, the biggest difference between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether the
memory is used as QBus memory, or PMI memory, which is faster.  All of the
KDJ11-B boards can use PMI memory.  Beware, not all quad memory boards are
PMI-capable, but all the 1MB and bigger ones that I can think of are.

> do all 11/83 use PMI ?

Yes.  They will work with QBus memory instead (and if you put a PMI board
after the processor instead of before it, it will run as normal QBus
memory)
but then what you have is effectively an 11/73, not an 11/83.

> but the memory seems to work, or has
> the cpu board some memory on it?

No, there's no memory on the CPU board, but the memory you have is running
as QBus memory.

> when i picked up the box they booted it, i
> suppose this configuration was the
> way they used it there and should have
> worked.
> the RD54 controller has a 50pin ribboncable
> wich goes to a small board (wich
> was hanging on the backside) and a small
> frontpanel (from a 11/83 or 73) was
> hanging on it.

Literally "hanging"?  Not fixed to the front of the BA23?  Is this actually
a floor-standing (or possibly rack-mounting) BA23 with space for a TK50 and
a drive unit, or a rackmount BA11-S or BA11-N chassis with no space for
drives?

> it looks like
>
> *************
> *     *'''''*    O is a round hole (to hold a batch?)
> *  O  *'''''*    '' is a big hole (power switch i suppose)
> *     *'''''*
> *************
> *  X     B  *    X = run on/off ?(green led) B = reset ?
> *  X     X  *    X = write protect (red)  X = online(green) for disk 0 ?
> *  X     X  *    X = write protect (red)  X = online(green) for disk 1 ?
> *************
> X is a switch with led B is a button with led
> i never saw a pdp with this frontpanel

Neither have I.  DEC used pushbuttons for the disk controls on microPDP-11
panels.  Each section is separate, though; it sounds like someone has
replaced the pushbuttons or used third-party sub-panels.  The round hole
(if this is an original DEC panel) is for the badge that says whether it's
a microPDP-11/23, microPDP-11/73, microPDP-11/83, microPDP-11/53, etc.  The
rectangular hole is for the power switch in a BA23 or BA123 cabinet.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From lothar.felten at gmx.net  Sun Jan 20 11:05:31 2002
From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 02:05:31 +0100
Subject: AW: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: <10201192218.ZM9996@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINMEEBCBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>

hi there!
hi pete!
> If I were to be really picky, I'd
> say you meant microPDP-11/23.  11/23-plus
> would mean a BA11-S enclosure with
> a different type of backplane :-)
mine is about 40 inch high, 19 inch wide and
as deep as
the rl02 is. the "microcomputer interfaces
1983-84" shows
some pictures of boxes: is might be the
BA11-S
>
> The backplane itself has a
> model number; for a BA23 it should
> be H9728-A.
>
on the backplane i found H9276-A.
i don´t know what -A means, but it should be
a Q22/CD
so no serpentine?
>
>
> I'm guessing you have a single
> memory board, probably an MSV11-Q (M7551),
> and an RLV12 (M8061, one quad
> board) rather than an RLV11 (two
> quad boards)
> -- if not, that makes a difference
> to the layout.  I'm also guessing at a
> DEQNA (M7504) rather than any
> other Ethernet controller, but it makes no
> difference to the placement, so
> long as it's a dual-height board.
>
now i´ve got the numbers here:
CPU:   M8190-AE      KDJ11-B
MEM:   M7551-CC      MSVC11-QC
RL02:  M8061
DELQA: M7516
RQDX3: M7555
DEQNA: M7546

> There were some differences about whether
> an FPU could be fitted (due to an
> error on the original boards); those that
> would not take an FPU were only
> sold as KDJ11-BC and all had 15MHz clocks.
>  Others with 15MHz clocks were
> sold as KDJ11-BB (upgradeable but FPU not
> fitted).  There are also some with
> 18MHz clocks, these were sold as
> KDJ11-BE, -BF, or higher.
> Normally an 11/83 has a KDJ11-BE or higher
> suffix.  Early 11/73 are 15MHz.
> Just to add to the confusion, the -Bx
> suffix actually refers to the
> EPROMs on the board, not the clock speed or
> the FPU.  The *only* difference
> between a normal KDJ11-BE or -BF or -BH is
> the firmware in the EPROMs.

hmmm, this is really confusing, since i have
AE
can it take an FPU? maybe it has a fpu? what
does
the fpu look like?

>
> However, the biggest difference
> between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether the
> memory is used as QBus memory, or
> PMI memory, which is faster.  All of the
> KDJ11-B boards can use PMI memory.
>  Beware, not all quad memory boards are
> PMI-capable, but all the 1MB and
> bigger ones that I can think of are.

so i should put in first memory then cpu.
>
> > do all 11/83 use PMI ?
>
> Yes.  They will work with QBus
> memory instead (and if you put a PMI board
> after the processor instead of
> before it, it will run as normal QBus
> memory)
> but then what you have is
> effectively an 11/73, not an 11/83.
>
>
> Literally "hanging"?  Not fixed to
> the front of the BA23?  Is this actually
> a floor-standing (or possibly
> rack-mounting) BA23 with space for
> a TK50 and
> a drive unit, or a rackmount
> BA11-S or BA11-N chassis with no space for
> drives?
well it´s a BA11-S i suppose by now.
the panel and the pcb wich connects to the
two disks were literally "hanging"
when i got the box, it was a pdp-cabinet
and a second 19inch rack, containig old,
unused stuff and the tk50 and those 2 disks
there is a separate power supply for the
disks
now the tk50 and the disks are on a separate
table
>
> Neither have I.  DEC used
> pushbuttons for the disk controls
> on microPDP-11
> panels.  Each section is separate,
> though; it sounds like someone has
> replaced the pushbuttons or used
> third-party sub-panels.  The round hole
> (if this is an original DEC panel)

it´s a original dec panel and dec pcb.

> is for the badge that says whether it's
> a microPDP-11/23, microPDP-11/73,
> microPDP-11/83, microPDP-11/53, etc.  The
> rectangular hole is for the power
> switch in a BA23 or BA123 cabinet.

i suppose they changed CPU and memory from
the pdp11/23plus and put in half a 11/83.
the 3 switches at the frontbezel of the
BA11 work, the other "front"panel at the back
(from a 11/83) is only used to put the disks
online and write protect them. this would
also
explain why there is a connector "hanging"
at the rear-frontpanel.

a weird pdp.

--lothar



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sun Jan 20 07:35:00 2002
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Sat, 19 Jan 2002 22:35:00 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINKEDPCBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <200201192135.g0JLZ0N01772@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 19 Jan, lothar felten wrote:

> well the pdp was once a pdp 11/23+ so
> enclosure and backplane should be
> the same as a 11/23 (ba 23). backplane should
> be Q22/CD configuration, 
Only the first 3 slots are Q/CD. The other 5 slots are Q/Q in serpentine
bus grant wiring. Tony said that the memory should be in the first
slot. So I would recommend you should order your cards like this:

A/B Slot                          | C/D Slot
*memory (quad)--------------------|---------------------------------->
*cpu (quad)-----------------------|---------------------------------->
*controller for TK50 (double)---->|*empty---------------------------->
*network controller (double)----->|*controller for RD54 disks (double)
*controller for RL02 disks (quad)-|---------------------------------->

> i´ll open the box and look for the 501-
> number to be sure. 
501-? This is no Sun. ;-)

> on the back there is a sticker saying this is a 11/73. 
AFAIK some 11/73 labeld boxen where sold with a 11/83 CPU in the first
slot and the memory in the second. In this way the CPU can not use PMI
memory and accesses the memory via the QBus. That is much slower then
PMI. You can convert this "fake" 11/73 to a 11/83 by swaping CPU and
memory cards. 

> cpu-board is a 11/83.(i´ll pass
> the number too). 
Look for the Mxxxx number. It should be M8190 = KDJ11-B according to the
field-guide. 

> do all 11/83 use PMI ?
AFAIK a 11/83 CPU can use QBus and (or?) PMI memory. If it is
configured with QBus memory it is calld a "11/73". But keep in mind
that there is a "real" 11/73 CPU (M8192 = KDJ11-A). See above...

> the memory seems to work, or has
> the cpu board some memory on it?
According to the field-guide not.

> when i picked up the box they booted it, i
> suppose this configuration was the
> way they used it there and should have
> worked.
Hmm. Are there Q/CD only BA23 backplanes? 

> *************
> *     *'''''*    O is a round hole (to hold a batch?)
> *  O  *'''''*    '' is a big hole (power switch i suppose)
> *     *'''''*
Yes. Yes.

> *************
> *  X     B  *    X = run on/off ?(green led)
> B = reset ?
> *  X     X  *    X = write protect(red led) X
> = online(green led)    for disk 0 ?
> *  X     X  *    X = write protect(red led) X
> = online(green led)    for disk 1 ?
> *************
> X is a switch with led B is a button with led
I never saw a front panel like that, but your assumption sounds right.
All my front panels have only one disk write protect / online switch.
-- 



tschuess,
          Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz



From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sun Jan 20 20:52:38 2002
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:52:38 +0000
Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC)
In-Reply-To: <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com>
References: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>
 <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <woNqxNB2FqS8EwcB@falstaf.demon.co.uk>

In message <20020119112351.F60575 at wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey 
<grog at lemis.com> writes
>On Friday, 18 January 2002 at 17:13:26 -0500, norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca wrote:
>> Jonathan Engdahl:
>>
>>   Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc, 
>>and ANSI
>>   compliant.
>>
Where can it be found and is it legal to use it on the sorts of systems 
that we play with?.

regards

Robin
>> lcc's a good compiler; it has become cc in my own peculiar Ancient UNIX
>> environment.
>
>It also has the advantage that there's a good book about it describing
>exactly how it works: "A retargetable C compiler: Design and
>implementation" by Christopher Fraser and David Hanson
>(Benjamin/Cummings, 1995, ISBN 0-8053-1670-1).
>
>Greg
>--
>Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
>See complete headers for address and phone numbers
>_______________________________________________
>PUPS mailing list
>PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
>http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sun Jan 20 21:44:54 2002
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 12:44:54 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: <10201192218.ZM9996@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <200201201144.g0KBisL03369@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 19 Jan, Pete Turnbull wrote:

> Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part.  The backplane itself has a
> model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A.
"H9728-A"? The sticker on the two BA23 backplanes I have here says
"H9278-A". 

Lothar: If you wane look at the number and you have a BA23, you have to
remove the tin plate on top of the QBus card cage. 
-- 



tschuess,
          Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz



From emu at ecubics.com  Mon Jan 21 00:38:48 2002
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 07:38:48 -0700
Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC)
References: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>
	 <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com> <woNqxNB2FqS8EwcB@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3C4AD678.17C5AF5@ecubics.com>

Robin Birch wrote:
> 
> >>
> >>   Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc,
> >>and ANSI
> >>   compliant.
> >>
> Where can it be found 

Please have a look at :

http://www.cs.princeton.edu/software/lcc/

> and is it legal to use it on the sorts of systems
> that we play with?.

The copyright is with Addison-Wesley. However, few companies bought the
right 
to use it. No idea about the price, and whom to ask at Addison-Wesley
...
 
cheers


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Mon Jan 21 00:57:31 2002
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:57:31 GMT
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
        "Re: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 19, 22:35)
References: <200201192135.g0JLZ0N01772@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <10201201457.ZM10594@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Jan 19, 22:35, jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:

> Only the first 3 slots are Q/CD. The other 5 slots are Q/Q in serpentine
> bus grant wiring. Tony said that the memory should be in the first
> slot.

Lothar later said this is an H9276-A.  That's a straight backplane, all
Q22/CD.  It seems he has a BA11-S not a BA23 :-)

BTW, DEC normally recommended all comms and network cards go after the
memory, tapes next, then disks.

> AFAIK some 11/73 labeld boxen where sold with a 11/83 CPU in the first
> slot and the memory in the second.

It's the order of the boards (and the boot ROMs) that make it 11/73 or
11/83, not the circuit board.  Though original 11/73s are 15MHz and
original 11/83s are 18MHz.

> AFAIK a 11/83 CPU can use QBus and (or?) PMI memory. If it is
> configured with QBus memory it is calld a "11/73". But keep in mind
> that there is a "real" 11/73 CPU (M8192 = KDJ11-A).

That's a dual-height board, CPU only, with no boot ROMs, LTC, or SLUs.  It
was only sold as an OEM product or as an upgrade to 11/03 or 11/23 (not
11/23+ or microPDP-11/23) systems.  Whilst it is a "real 11/73", it's no
more "real" than any other :-)

> Hmm. Are there Q/CD only BA23 backplanes?

No.  There are straight Q/CD and serpentine Q/Q backplanes of the same size
but they're only used in other boxes (like BA11-N and BA11-S) or sold as
OEM units.

> I never saw a front panel like that, but your assumption sounds right.
> All my front panels have only one disk write protect / online switch.

The BA23 was only rated for one hard disk and either a TK50 or an RX50, but
the BA123 (which uses the same panels) was rated for up to 4 MSCP devices.
 That's why the WP and ONLINE switches and LEDs are on a subassembly, so
you can add another one.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Mon Jan 21 00:57:33 2002
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 14:57:33 GMT
Subject: AW: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: "lothar felten" <lothar.felten@gmx.net>
        "AW: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 20,  2:05)
References: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINMEEBCBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <10201201457.ZM10598@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Jan 20,  2:05, lothar felten wrote:

> mine is about 40 inch high, 19 inch wide and
> as deep as
> the rl02 is. the "microcomputer interfaces
> 1983-84" shows
> some pictures of boxes: is might be the
> BA11-S

Sounds like you have what was a standard PDP-11/23 (or maybe 11/23+) system
in an office-type cabinet (H9642 or equivalent), with an RL02 in the top, a
stiffener panel, BA11-N or BA11-S box, a second RL02, and two blanking
plates at the bottom.  Sometimes people moved the second RL02 down 3U and
put one blanking plate or an expansion box between the BA11 and the RL02.
 As far as I remember, the only significant difference between a BA11-N and
a BA11-S is an uprated power supply, and a 22-bit backplane instead of an
18-bit one (but you can upgrade the 18-bit ones).

> on the backplane i found H9276-A.
> i don´t know what -A means, but it should be
> a Q22/CD
> so no serpentine?

Correct.  There is a very similar backplane H9275-A which is all
serpentine, but not in a standard 11/23 box, as far as I remember.  H9276-A
is for a BA11-S.  BA11-N uses H9273.

> now i´ve got the numbers here:
> CPU:   M8190-AE      KDJ11-B
> MEM:   M7551-CC      MSVC11-QC
> RL02:  M8061
> DELQA: M7516
> RQDX3: M7555
> DEQNA: M7546

OK.  That should be fine, so long as there are no gaps in the A/B slots
(left side of backplane as you look into it from the back of the machine)
between the cards.

The original 11/23+ probably had an RQDX1 or RQDX2, and possibly an RLV11,
and certainly different memory.

> hmmm, this is really confusing, since i have
> AE can it take an FPU? maybe it has a fpu? what
> does the fpu look like?

The -AE means it's a later board, should be 18MHz, and should not only be
FPU-capable, it should actually have the FPJ-11 chip on it.  -AD is the
same thing without the FPJ-11 fitted (it still does floating point ops,
just more slowly).  If not, you'll probably find it easier to get a
replacement board with an FPU already on it, rather than get the FPU chip
on it's own.

> > However, the biggest difference between 11/83 and 11/73 is whether
> > memory is used as QBus memory, or PMI memory, which is faster. the
>
> so i should put in first memory then cpu.

To get the best performance, yes.  It won't double the speed, or anything
like that, but it will go a bit faster.

> well it´s a BA11-S i suppose by now.

If it's an H9276 backplane and H7861 PSU, yes.

> a weird pdp.

Not quite factory-standard :-)   But none the less good.



-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Mon Jan 21 01:01:41 2002
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 15:01:41 GMT
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
        "Re: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 20, 12:44)
References: <200201201144.g0KBisL03369@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <10201201501.ZM10636@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Jan 20, 12:44, jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> On 19 Jan, Pete Turnbull wrote:
>
> > Not the 54- number, that's only the PCB part.  The backplane itself has
> >a  model number; for a BA23 it should be H9728-A.
> "H9728-A"? The sticker on the two BA23 backplanes I have here says
> "H9278-A".

Typo.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Mon Jan 21 01:24:53 2002
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:24:53 -0500
Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC)
Message-ID: <200201201525.BAA04276@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>

lcc is not public-domain nor GPL, but it is freely available for `personal
research and instructional use,' and in general there is no restriction as
long as you don't redistribute it for profit or resell it.

Here's the official scoop, as inscribed in ./CPYRIGHT in the lcc 3.6
distribution.  It is possible that the terms have changed for newer
versions; I haven't been keeping track.

----
The authors of this software are Christopher W. Fraser and
David R. Hanson.

Copyright (c) 1991,1992,1993,1994,1995 by AT&T, Christopher W. Fraser,
and David R. Hanson. All Rights Reserved.

Permission to use, copy, modify, and distribute this software for any
purpose, subject to the provisions described below, without fee is
hereby granted, provided that this entire notice is included in all
copies of any software that is or includes a copy or modification of
this software and in all copies of the supporting documentation for
such software.

THIS SOFTWARE IS BEING PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED
WARRANTY. IN PARTICULAR, NEITHER THE AUTHORS NOR AT&T MAKE ANY
REPRESENTATION OR WARRANTY OF ANY KIND CONCERNING THE MERCHANTABILITY
OF THIS SOFTWARE OR ITS FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE.


lcc is not public-domain software, shareware, and it is not protected
by a `copyleft' agreement, like the code from the Free Software
Foundation.

lcc is available free for your personal research and instructional use
under the `fair use' provisions of the copyright law. You may, however,
redistribute lcc in whole or in part provided you acknowledge its
source and include this CPYRIGHT file. You may, for example, include
the distribution in a CDROM of free software, provided you charge only
for the media, or mirror the distribution files at your site.

You may not sell lcc or any product derived from it in which it is a
significant part of the value of the product. Using the lcc front end
to build a C syntax checker is an example of this kind of product.

You may use parts of lcc in products as long as you charge for only
those components that are entirely your own and you acknowledge the use
of lcc clearly in all product documentation and distribution media. You
must state clearly that your product uses or is based on parts of lcc
and that lcc is available free of charge. You must also request that
bug reports on your product be reported to you. Using the lcc front
end to build a C compiler for the Motorola 88000 chip and charging for
and distributing only the 88000 code generator is an example of this
kind of product.

Using parts of lcc in other products is more problematic. For example,
using parts of lcc in a C++ compiler could save substantial time and
effort and therefore contribute significantly to the profitability of
the product. This kind of use, or any use where others stand to make a
profit from what is primarily our work, requires a license agreement
with Addison-Wesley.  Per-copy and unlimited use licenses are
available; for more information, contact

	J. Carter Shanklin
	Addison Wesley Longman, Inc. 
	2725 Sand Hill Rd.
	Menlo Park, CA 94025
	415/854-0300 x2478 FAX: 415/614-2930 jcs at aw.com
-----
Chris Fraser / cwfraser at microsoft.com
David Hanson / drh at cs.princeton.edu
$Revision: 1.3 $ $Date: 1996/09/30 13:55:00 $


From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Mon Jan 21 01:47:11 2002
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 10:47:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC)
In-Reply-To: <3C4AD678.17C5AF5@ecubics.com>
Message-ID: <20020120104102.Y97037-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>

On Sun, 20 Jan 2002, emanuel stiebler wrote:

>
>
> Please have a look at :
>
> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/software/lcc/
>
> > and is it legal to use it on the sorts of systems
> > that we play with?.
>
> The copyright is with Addison-Wesley. However, few companies bought the
> right
> to use it. No idea about the price, and whom to ask at Addison-Wesley
> ...
>

And one other note.  I had the department secretary request a copy of
the book for me back before Christmas.  They said it would ship around
2 January.  When it hadn't shown up by the middle of the month I asked
her to check with our book rep again.  This time they told her it was
out of print and there was no idea when or even if it would be printed
again.  :-(

On another note, as long as we're talking compilers and PDP's, one of
profs here was cleaning his office and found documentation for WATBOL
on the PDP-11.  This reminded me that Waterloo had done a lot of things
for older systems like the PDP.  I wonder what the chances are someone
there could be found who would be willing/able to release this older
stuff under something like the BSD license so it could be used for
other projects??

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>



From emu at ecubics.com  Mon Jan 21 02:07:44 2002
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 09:07:44 -0700
Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC)
References: <20020120104102.Y97037-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>
Message-ID: <3C4AEB50.D6763651@ecubics.com>

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
> 
> And one other note.  I had the department secretary request a copy of
> the book for me back before Christmas.  They said it would ship around
> 2 January.  When it hadn't shown up by the middle of the month I asked
> her to check with our book rep again.  This time they told her it was
> out of print and there was no idea when or even if it would be printed
> again.  :-(

Strange ...

Most of the bookstores seem to have it in stock. Just click on the link
with the "bestbookbuys" 

And on a different note, the book is very good in explaining how it
could
work. But it is describing the version 3.6 of the compiler, so you have
to go through all the sources of 4.1 anyway, because of all changes . 
And you don't touch the book anymore ;-)

cheers & have fun


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Mon Jan 21 03:45:41 2002
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:45:41 +0100
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: <10201201457.ZM10594@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>; from pete@dunnington.u-net.com on Sun, Jan 20, 2002 at 15:57:31 CET
References: <200201192135.g0JLZ0N01772@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <10201201457.ZM10594@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <20020120184541.A50971@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 2002.01.20 15:57 Pete Turnbull wrote:

> Lothar later said this is an H9276-A.  That's a straight backplane,
> all Q22/CD.  It seems he has a BA11-S not a BA23 :-)
Aha. OK. That is a different story. 

> BTW, DEC normally recommended all comms and network cards go after the
> memory, tapes next, then disks.
I usualy put comms after the CPU, then network, tape (or tape, network,
what fits best for the wiring) and disks last. 

> It's the order of the boards (and the boot ROMs) that make it 11/73 or
> 11/83, not the circuit board.  Though original 11/73s are 15MHz and
> original 11/83s are 18MHz.
[...]
> That's a dual-height board, CPU only, with no boot ROMs, LTC, or SLUs.
> It was only sold as an OEM product or as an upgrade to 11/03 or 11/23
Ahhhhh! My PDP 11 has this M8192 board with FPU but without ROMs...
I thought that this is the "original" 11/73 CPU. But on this PDP is
nothing "original". The BA23 was a MV II, the CPU was EPayed, the RAM
board was given to me by a friend. (Many PC/XTs had to donate there RAM
chips to fill it.) I found the console SLU at the scrap yard, the Dilog
ESDI controller was EPayd (in England BTW ;-) ) ... and I am still
looking for a ROM card... But I will get a /83 CPU card with ROMs in a
few months...

> > All my front panels have only one disk write protect / online
> switch.
> The BA23 was only rated for one hard disk and either a TK50 or an
RX50, 
I know. I once saw a MV II with a second RD54 in an external case. There
was a real mess of wiring to get it and the internal RD54 work together
on one RQDX3. Puting the TK50 out of the BA23 and mounting the second
RD54 in the BA23 would have been much simpler. But not the DEC way of
live. ;-)

> the BA123 (which uses the same panels) was rated for up to 4 MSCP
> devices.
>  That's why the WP and ONLINE switches and LEDs are on a subassembly,
> so you can add another one.
I know. My MV III lives in a BA123. (With 4 ESDI disks, TK50 and
floppy.)
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Mon Jan 21 04:31:24 2002
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 18:31:24 GMT
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: Jochen Kunz <jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
        "Re: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm" (Jan 20, 18:45)
References: <200201192135.g0JLZ0N01772@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> 
	<10201201457.ZM10594@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com> 
	<20020120184541.A50971@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <10201201831.ZM10867@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Jan 20, 18:45, Jochen Kunz wrote:
>
> Ahhhhh! My PDP 11 has this M8192 board with FPU but without ROMs...
> I thought that this is the "original" 11/73 CPU. But on this PDP is
> nothing "original". The BA23 was a MV II, the CPU was EPayed, the RAM
> board was given to me by a friend. (Many PC/XTs had to donate there RAM
> chips to fill it.)

About the best use I can think of for a PC/XT :-)

> I found the console SLU at the scrap yard, the Dilog
> ESDI controller was EPayd (in England BTW ;-) ) ... and I am still
> looking for a ROM card...

If you can find an MRV11-D (to put MXV11-B ROMs into) or an MVX11-B, that
would be the best option (and the only ones DEC supported).  However, it
should be possible to put the code from MXV11-B ROMs into several 24-pin
2Kx8 EPROMs (2716 or equivalent), and put the EPROMs into a BDV11.
 However, you'd want to modify the BDV11 for 22-bit operation (that's ECO
005).

> > The BA23 was only rated for one hard disk and either a TK50 or an
> RX50,
> I know. I once saw a MV II with a second RD54 in an external case. There
> was a real mess of wiring to get it and the internal RD54 work together
> on one RQDX3. Puting the TK50 out of the BA23 and mounting the second
> RD54 in the BA23 would have been much simpler. But not the DEC way of
> live. ;-)

Because old hard drives take a lot of current.  The PSU and wiring loom
won't take a full backplane and two hard drives.

I did one of mine a different way.  I have a BA11-N with the backplane
modified to be 22-bit.  In it is an RQDX2 (or an RQDX3, depending on what's
been shuffled around this month), with a 50-way ribbon cable going to a DEC
box (used to be a TKZ50) which has a PSU, a hard drive, and an RX50.  In
the box is also a small PCB I made to do the job of the distribution board
found in a BA123.  Also in the BA11-N backplane is a modified BDV11, with a
pair of 28-pin EPROM sockets which normally hold microPDP-11/23 boot ROMs.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From grog at lemis.com  Mon Jan 21 10:24:23 2002
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2002 10:54:23 +1030
Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC)
In-Reply-To: <woNqxNB2FqS8EwcB@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
References: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com> <woNqxNB2FqS8EwcB@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20020121105423.B4262@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Sunday, 20 January 2002 at 10:52:38 +0000, Robin Birch wrote:
> In message <20020119112351.F60575 at wantadilla.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes
>> On Friday, 18 January 2002 at 17:13:26 -0500, norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca> wrote:
>>> Jonathan Engdahl:
>>>
>>>  Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller than gcc,
>>> and ANSI
>>>  compliant.
>
> Where can it be found and is it legal to use it on the sorts of systems
> that we play with?.

It's in the FreeBSD Ports Collection as /usr/ports/lang/lcc, but it's
still version 3.6; if you update it for more recent versions, let me
know and I'll commit it.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com  Mon Jan 21 12:22:14 2002
From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl)
Date: Sun, 20 Jan 2002 21:22:14 -0500
Subject: [pups] lcc (was: GCC)
References: <200201182214.IAA22019@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020119112351.F60575@wantadilla.lemis.com> <woNqxNB2FqS8EwcB@falstaf.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <005001c1a234$4b5befc0$48e11840@rcs.ra.rockwell.com>

> >>   Consider lcc, the Princeton C compiler. It's much smaller
than gcc,
> >>and ANSI
> >>   compliant.
> >>
> Where can it be found and is it legal to use it on the sorts
of systems
> that we play with?.

About 10 years ago I used version 3 something and wrote a code
generator for a Transputer-like CPU on a chip that we did. I
wrote the author just to clarify, and he said that using their
compiler to generate code for our chip was fair use, as long as
I wasn't selling their code.

I never took a compiler course, but it wasn't that hard to
understand what was going on. I didn't have the book either. I
considered gcc first, but I never did figure it out.

In version three, the front end hands the code generator some
trees, and the code generator walks the trees and spits out
code. For a limited-stack machine similar to the Transputer, it
was easy, except I had to totally redo register allocation.

The front end for version 3 was very good. I recall I only had
to change two or three things in it.

My conclusion is that you have to be a compiler expert to write
a code generator for gcc. Any competent programmer could do it
for lcc.

I think the new version has a code generator generator.

Doing an lcc code generator for the PDP-11 is on my "someday"
list. One thing that you could to do to make it fit on the
PDP-11 is break it up into preprocessor, front-end, and code
generator programs.


--
Jonathan Engdahl                    Rockwell Automation
Principal Research Engineer         1 Allen-Bradley Drive
Advanced Technology                 Mayfield Heights, OH 44124
http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl jrengdahl at safeaccess.com

"The things which are seen are temporary,
 but the things which are not seen are eternal."  II Cor. 4:18




From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Thu Jan 24 10:25:33 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:25:33 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license
Message-ID: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org>

All,
	Amazing news. I have been negotiating with Caldera to release the
Ancient UNIX under a BSD-style license. Well, they got it done faster
than I expected. See attached license.

I'll start removing the username/password stuff on the Unix Archive soon.

	Warren


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From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Thu Jan 24 14:51:39 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:51:39 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Unix Archive now available anonymously
Message-ID: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org>

All,
	With the new Caldera license, the Unix Archive is now available to
you anonymously. You can throw away those passwords now. The list of
Archive mirrors is at:

http://www.tuhs.org/archive_sites.html

and if you can become a mirror, please read

http://www.tuhs.org/mirroring.html

and send me some e-mail when you are ready to be added to the list.

I can tell you that up to now, 2,830 people obtained a SCO Ancient UNIX
license, of which 250 had to pay the US$100 to get it. I'll turn off the
CGI script which allows you to obtain a SCO license now ....

You know this means that Net/2, 4.xBSD and 2.11BSD are all freely available
now :)

Cheers,
	Warren


From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com  Fri Jan 25 00:13:05 2002
From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:13:05 -0500
Subject: [pups] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license
References: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <010001c1a4e1$3e3f0980$e3c89782@ra.rockwell.com>

That is wonderful! Congratulations and many thanks for the tremendous
contribution.

Hurrah for Caldera and Bill Broderick, too. Thank you.

--
Jonathan Engdahl                      Rockwell Automation
Principal Research Engineer           1 Allen-Bradley Drive
Advanced Technology                   Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 USA
http://users.safeacess.com/engdahl    jrengdahl at safeaccess.com



From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Fri Jan 25 00:17:40 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:17:40 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: Caldera license
In-Reply-To: <23C0CD62-10D1-11D6-A66D-000502F91E77@uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic
 at "Jan 24, 2002 07:49:08 am"
Message-ID: <200201241417.g0OEHiu04148@minnie.tuhs.org>

In article by Milo Velimirovic:
> Warren,
> The license didn't survive the digestification process on the list -- 
> Would you be kind enough to send me a copy of the ancient-source.pdf
> directly or a URL to it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Milo

Here it is,
	Warren

http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf


From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Fri Jan 25 01:13:02 2002
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:13:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: Caldera license
In-Reply-To: <200201241417.g0OEHiu04148@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20020124100902.H29210-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>

Warren,
  being as you have already answered my question regarding how this
effects BSD 4.x, that leaves only one question.  Does this require
that the Caldera Copyright notice be inserted into all the source
files before they can be released anywhere??  For example, if I put
up a site for the continued develpment of Ultrix-11 do all the files
need to contain the Caldera Copyright before I can allow people to
work with them??  Mind, I don't mean the whole text of the message,
I merely mean the line Copyright Caldera 2001, 2002.......

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>



From MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 25 01:29:06 2002
From: MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:29:06 -0800
Subject: [pups] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license
References: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <010001c1a4e1$3e3f0980$e3c89782@ra.rockwell.com>
Message-ID: <3C502842.3090200@pacbell.net>

Jonathan Engdahl wrote:

>That is wonderful! Congratulations and many thanks for the tremendous
>contribution.
>
>Hurrah for Caldera and Bill Broderick, too. Thank you.
>
In addition to Bill, a large debt of gratitude is also owed to Dion 
Johnson, formerly of SCO,
now of Caldera.

Dion was the driving force at SCO behind the original release of  the 
"Ancient UNIX" source
code and this final milestone was almost entirely his doing as well.

I don't believe that he subscribes to either of these lists and, even if 
he does, he is far too
modest to take the credit for all of  the time and energy that he has 
put into this project
behind the scenes,  but I want to make sure that it does not go 
unrecognized.

If any of  you want to send a note of thanks to him personally, his 
email address  is:

dionj at caldera.com



From MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 25 01:43:37 2002
From: MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:43:37 -0800
Subject: [pups] Re: Caldera license
References: <20020124100902.H29210-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>
Message-ID: <3C502BA9.5040701@pacbell.net>

Bill Gunshannon wrote:

>Warren,
>  being as you have already answered my question regarding how this
>effects BSD 4.x, that leaves only one question.  Does this require
>that the Caldera Copyright notice be inserted into all the source
>files before they can be released anywhere??  For example, if I put
>up a site for the continued develpment of Ultrix-11 do all the files
>need to contain the Caldera Copyright before I can allow people to
>work with them??  Mind, I don't mean the whole text of the message,
>I merely mean the line Copyright Caldera 2001, 2002.......
>
While I am not a lawyer, and don't speak officially for Caldera on this, 
I know that the
intent of this was not to require the addition or changing of any 
copyright notices in the
files themselves. Strictly speaking, the actual copyright ownership 
hasn't really changed.
The copyright was owned by Caldera and it still is.

The actual copyright notices which may appear in various parts of the 
source code are
historic and haven't reflected the current ownership of the code for 
years - nor do they
need to. (I believe that from a strict legal standpoint the actual 
copyright notice in the
code is essentially irrelevant)

What has changed is the license under which it may be used.

I believe that it is sufficient to provide a single copy of the license 
/ copyright text from
the letter along with any file or files that  either come directly from 
or are derived from
any of the listed operating systems.






From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Fri Jan 25 08:05:31 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:05:31 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Re: Caldera license
In-Reply-To: <3C502BA9.5040701@pacbell.net> from Michael Davidson at "Jan 24,
 2002 07:43:37 am"
Message-ID: <200201242205.g0OM5V212564@minnie.tuhs.org>

In article by Michael Davidson:
> I believe that it is sufficient to provide a single copy of the license 
> / copyright text from the letter along with any file or files that
> either come directly from or are derived from
> any of the listed operating systems.

I believe that's all we need to do. I'm only going to have 1 copy
of the license agreement in the Unix Archive, with the odd pointer
to it in some of the READMEs.

	Warren


From perry at wasabisystems.com  Fri Jan 25 09:12:38 2002
From: perry at wasabisystems.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Date: 24 Jan 2002 18:12:38 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: [TUHS] Unix Archive now available anonymously
In-Reply-To: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <87sn8vfimx.fsf@snark.piermont.com>

Warren Toomey <wkt at minnie.tuhs.org> writes:
> You know this means that Net/2, 4.xBSD and 2.11BSD are all freely available
> now :)

Not quite. Although it is obvious that UCB would intend those files to
be freely available, they never had a UCB license on their diffs from
32V per se.

It is my understanding that Kirk McKusick is working on getting this
rectified by the UCB people shortly.


--
Perry E. Metzger		perry at wasabisystems.com
--
NetBSD Development, Support & CDs. http://www.wasabisystems.com/


From lothar.felten at gmx.net  Sat Jan 26 22:50:49 2002
From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 13:50:49 +0100
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
Message-ID: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINAEGACBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>

about the pdp-11/83:

swapping cpu and memoryboard does work, but
the performance stays the same:
none, because i still don´t have any system
by now. there is a small difference:
the run led stays off all the time, but the
system ODT works fine. i suppose this
is a problem of passing the signals, but this
is only a vague guess.
when i boot the TK50 2.11BSD tape, i can get
the disklabel program loaded.
it asks: Disk?
when i try to access the disks, the system
hangs. when i access rl(0,0) (RL02
disk drive0) the system just hangs, no
response. when i access ra(0,0) (RD54 disk
drive0) i get a "menu": d(isplay) D(efault)
m(odify) w(rite) q(uit)?
i can enter D, then it should write the
defaults to the disk. after this i get:
d(isplay) D(efault) m(odify) w(rite) q(uit)?
i enter d (to see what the program did), and
i get:
type:MSCP
disk:RD54
flags:
bytes/sector:512
sectors/track:17
tr
(it stops right after tr) i suppose the
program is asking the controller about
drive parameters, and that´s where it fails.
i can wait for hours, i´ll get no
response.
i can use all the menu, except d=display.
i thought that maybe one of the controlles is
broken and causes trouble on the
qbus (maybe the RL02 controller). is there a
way to check all this stuff?
i do have some "winchester" controllers for
PC/ISA, i could check the disks on
a linux pc, no problem, but i don´t want to
overwrite something "digital"-specific
that i could not restore. those RD54-disks
are regular ST506-mfm, right?
maybe i should "downsize" the system to the
basic elements i need to get it running
maybe there really is a bus problem.
i´d try this configuration:
mem - cpu - rqdx3 - tqk50 (top-bottom)
would this be ok?
or, instead of using RD54 disks, should i try
to use the rl02 as "pair" (one swap,
one systemdisk)?
i think step by step checking the hardware is
the only thing i can do to get the
pdp up and running.

have a nice weekend

-- lothar

btw: does anyone know a good book/link about
system-architecture, specially harvard-
architecture ?



From michi at michiw.org  Mon Jan 28 04:03:24 2002
From: michi at michiw.org (Michael Werner)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:03:24 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0201271901240.3240-100000@server.michiw.org>

Hi there,

I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax
1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the
vtserver software.
When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded
correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver
documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and
some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any output.

When manually sending characters from the PDP, there is no problem.
I've set the serial line characteristics to:
Speed 2400, Character Size 8, Modem Control enabled, and RTS/CTS flow
control disabled. (I've changed these characteristics in many ways with
stty, but still no success...)
Using a break-out-box, I switched RTS/CTS and DTR/CTS flow control on and
off, forced the CTS line to be on, etc., but it still didn't work.
After successfully loading the bootloader via vtserver, the PDP's CPU goes
into an endless loop.

So, my question: Does anybody know what's going wrong here?

Thanks in advance - Michi




From lothar.felten at gmx.net  Mon Jan 28 08:42:44 2002
From: lothar.felten at gmx.net (lothar felten)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 23:42:44 +0100
Subject: [pups] solution for the disklabel
Message-ID: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINMEGECBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>

the pdp is running 2.11BSD !

the disk has now got a valid disklabel,
i got it on the disk by
setting all diskparameters without using
d (display) and wrote
it. after this i could use the display
option.

installation was no problem, but still i
have some questions:
my VT102 doesn´t do backspace, i only
get ^H. i tried the
terminal in ANSI and VT52 mode, no
difference.

i have some dec boards labeled M7513
does anyone know what this
is? i found:
M7513    - RQD   - RQDXE Q BUS drive
interface extension module
it is a double height card and it has 3
50pin connectors.

the RQDX3 has another connector, i
suppose for RX50 floppydrive.
can i hook up a 5,25" pc drive? maybe
with modifications?

--lothar



From michi at michiw.org  Sun Jan 27 02:38:39 2002
From: michi at michiw.org (Michael Werner)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 17:38:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0201261730360.568-100000@server.michiw.org>

Hi there,

I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax
1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the
vtserver software.
When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded
correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver
documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and
some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any output.

When manually sending characters from the PDP, there is no problem.
I've set the serial line characteristics to:
Speed 2400, Character Size 8, Modem Control enabled, and RTS/CTS flow
control disabled. (I've changed these characteristics in many ways with
stty, but still no success...)
Using a break-out-box, I switched RTS/CTS and DTR/CTS flow control on and
off, forced the CTS line to be on, etc., but it still didn't work.
After successfully loading the bootloader via vtserver, the PDP's CPU goes
into an endless loop.

So, my question: Does anybody know what's going wrong here?

Thanks in advance - Michi




From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sun Jan 27 03:39:42 2002
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 18:39:42 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINAEGACBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <200201261739.g0QHdgG01681@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 26 Jan, lothar felten wrote:

> i do have some "winchester" controllers for
> PC/ISA, i could check the disks on
> a linux pc, no problem, but i don´t want to
> overwrite something "digital"-specific
> that i could not restore. those RD54-disks
> are regular ST506-mfm, right?
Do not use RDxx disks in a PeeCee! You will damage the RQDX format and
the disks will be unusable on the RQDX. If you destroyed the RQDX
format you have to get a VAXstation 2000 to reformat the disks, or you
have to get XXDP onto your PDP 11 to do the job. 
-- 



tschuess,
          Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz



From kdavis at ndx.net  Tue Jan 29 15:10:09 2002
From: kdavis at ndx.net (Kirk B. Davis)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 21:10:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0201261730360.568-100000@server.michiw.org>
References: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0201261730360.568-100000@server.michiw.org>
Message-ID: <51795.216.103.73.141.1012281009.squirrel@bender.ndx.net>

Hmm, tricky. If you send me the 11/40, I'll have look for you :-)

Kirk

> Hi there,
> 
> I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax
> 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using 
the
> vtserver software.
> When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded
> correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver
> documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - 
and
> some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any
> output.
> 
> When manually sending characters from the PDP, there is no 
problem.
> I've set the serial line characteristics to:
> Speed 2400, Character Size 8, Modem Control enabled, and RTS/
CTS flow
> control disabled. (I've changed these characteristics in many ways 
with
> stty, but still no success...)
> Using a break-out-box, I switched RTS/CTS and DTR/CTS flow 
control on
> and off, forced the CTS line to be on, etc., but it still didn't work.
> After successfully loading the bootloader via vtserver, the PDP's 
CPU
> goes into an endless loop.
> 
> So, my question: Does anybody know what's going wrong here?
> 
> Thanks in advance - Michi
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups




From P.M.Williams at sheffield.ac.uk  Wed Jan 30 01:22:35 2002
From: P.M.Williams at sheffield.ac.uk (P.M.Williams)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 15:22:35 -0000
Subject: [pups] PDP 11/04
Message-ID: <E16Va5y-0004y5-00@mailhub1.shef.ac.uk>

I'm looking for someone in the UK that may have spares for a PDP-
11-04 (KY11-LA).  This computer is still in daily use in the 
University of Sheffield but currently has some problems with the 
power regulator (H777)
Any help would be greatly appreciated.




From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Jan 30 02:38:49 2002
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:38:49 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0201271901240.3240-100000@server.michiw.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201291736310.29712-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Sun, 27 Jan 2002, Michael Werner wrote:

> Hi there,
> 
> I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax
> 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the
> vtserver software.
> When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded
> correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver
> documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and
> some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any output.

Aha! So the first file gets transferred correctly?
Then your problem is totally withing that transferred file. My guess is
that it don't know your hardware well enough.

Does your machine have EIS? Does the code expect EIS to exist? How about
22-bit mode? I/D space?
FP perhaps?

There are a lot of potential problems...

> When manually sending characters from the PDP, there is no problem.

So? If you even manage to get the first file accress, the problem isn't
anything with your communication link.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl  Tue Jan 29 07:38:43 2002
From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:38:43 +0100
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
In-Reply-To: <200201261739.g0QHdgG01681@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>; from jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de on Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 06:39:42PM +0100
References: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINAEGACBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net> <200201261739.g0QHdgG01681@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <20020128223843.B35499@freebie.xs4all.nl>

On Sat, Jan 26, 2002 at 06:39:42PM +0100, jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> On 26 Jan, lothar felten wrote:
> 
> > i do have some "winchester" controllers for
> > PC/ISA, i could check the disks on
> > a linux pc, no problem, but i donŽt want to
> > overwrite something "digital"-specific
> > that i could not restore. those RD54-disks
> > are regular ST506-mfm, right?
> Do not use RDxx disks in a PeeCee! You will damage the RQDX format and
> the disks will be unusable on the RQDX. If you destroyed the RQDX
> format you have to get a VAXstation 2000 to reformat the disks, or you
> have to get XXDP onto your PDP 11 to do the job. 

I think MDM can also do it for you on a mVAX with RQDX3

-- 
|   / o / /_  _   		email: 	wilko at FreeBSD.org
|/|/ / / /(  (_)  Bulte		Arnhem, the Netherlands


From emu at ecubics.com  Wed Jan 30 04:34:12 2002
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 11:34:12 -0700
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD disklabel-programm
References: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINAEGACBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net> <200201261739.g0QHdgG01681@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20020128223843.B35499@freebie.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3C56EB24.9DE9244C@ecubics.com>

Wilko Bulte wrote:
> 
> I think MDM can also do it for you on a mVAX with RQDX3

Common error ;-)

MDM can only deal with a pefect formatted HD drive, which has no new
bad blocks since the last format. 
Otherwise, see the hints about the MV2000 & pdp11 ;-)

cheers


From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Wed Jan 30 13:13:15 2002
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 03:13:15 GMT
Subject: [pups] solution for the disklabel
In-Reply-To: "lothar felten" <lothar.felten@gmx.net>
        "[pups] solution for the disklabel" (Jan 27, 23:42)
References: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINMEGECBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <10201300313.ZM20610@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Jan 27, 23:42, lothar felten wrote:

> installation was no problem, but still i
> have some questions:
> my VT102 doesn´t do backspace, i only
> get ^H. i tried the
> terminal in ANSI and VT52 mode, no
> difference.

Maybe it wants a DEL character instead of backspace (backspace *is* ctrl-H,
shown as ^H or ^h).  Change it on the terminal by going into setup, or use
stty on the BSD system to change the delete character (stty del '^h').

> i have some dec boards labeled M7513
> does anyone know what this
> is? i found:
> M7513    - RQD   - RQDXE Q BUS drive
> interface extension module

That's exactly what it is.  The BA23 box only supports one hard drive; the
RQDXE is an adaptor for an RXDX2 or RXDX3 to permit use of additional
drives with a distribution board in a second enclosure.  One of the 50-pin
connectors goes to the RQDX3, one to the distribution board in the BA23,
and the third to a connector kit on the rear panel of the BA23.  There's a
different version for an RQDX1, called an RQDX1E.

> the RQDX3 has another connector, i
> suppose for RX50 floppydrive.

An RQDX3 has only one connector, the 50-pin one to go to the distribution
board.  Are you looking at the right thing?  Are you looking at a
distribution board?  That does have a 34-way connector for a floppy.

> can i hook up a 5,25" pc drive? maybe
> with modifications?

Not an ordinary PC floppy, no.  A TEAC FD55GFR is an 80-track double-sided
drive (not HD, though) that will work as an RX33.  Some other 80-track
5.25" drives may work, if you set the jumpers.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Wed Jan 30 13:20:38 2002
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 14:20:38 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver
Message-ID: <200201300320.OAA20792@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>

As I and other people mentioned in previous postings, it's likely that your
11/40 is missing memory management or EIS cpu options. In case the legend is
missing from your system box (not uncommon), I have updated my web page :-

	http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/11_40.html

to show board numbers and locations



From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Tue Jan 29 08:08:32 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 08:08:32 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0201261730360.568-100000@server.michiw.org> from
 Michael Werner at "Jan 26, 2002 05:38:39 pm"
Message-ID: <200201282208.g0SM8Xw97848@minnie.tuhs.org>

In article by Michael Werner:
> I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax
> 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the
> vtserver software.
> When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded
> correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver
> documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and
> some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any output.
> So, my question: Does anybody know what's going wrong here?
> Thanks in advance - Michi

I've passed the baton of Vtserver development over to Fred van Kempen.
However, which version of Vtserver are you using?

Cheers,
	Warren


From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Jan 29 08:53:42 2002
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:53:42 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0201261730360.568-100000@server.michiw.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201282352330.29712-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Sat, 26 Jan 2002, Michael Werner wrote:

> Hi there,
> 
> I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax
> 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the
> vtserver software.
> When I toggle in vtserver's boot code, the first file is being loaded
> correctly by the PDP. Then, following the instructions in vtserver
> documentation, the serial line should be used as a serial console - and
> some text should appear! And this is the problem: I don't get any output.
> 
> When manually sending characters from the PDP, there is no problem.

Okay. If it isn't a problem when you do it by hand it shouldn't be a
problem in the program either.

> I've set the serial line characteristics to:
> Speed 2400, Character Size 8, Modem Control enabled, and RTS/CTS flow
> control disabled. (I've changed these characteristics in many ways with
> stty, but still no success...)
> Using a break-out-box, I switched RTS/CTS and DTR/CTS flow control on and
> off, forced the CTS line to be on, etc., but it still didn't work.
> After successfully loading the bootloader via vtserver, the PDP's CPU goes
> into an endless loop.
> 
> So, my question: Does anybody know what's going wrong here?

Got the source code for that bootstrap?

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Tue Jan 29 09:11:46 2002
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 10:11:46 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver
Message-ID: <200201282311.KAA03402@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>

> I have my PDP11/40 connected to a MicroVAX 2 (running NetBSD/vax
> 1.5.2) via serial line and want to boot a 2.9BSD or 2.11BSD using the
> vtserver software.

2.11BSD won't work on a PDP11/40, although 2.9BSD should. If the secondary boot
loaded, you should get a prompt '40Boot' for your processor. You haven't said
how much memory you have. Also, the 11/40 has several cpu options, and the
memory management and line time clock options are required for Unix to work.
Check that there is a register at 772340. If it is not there, then the memory
management options isn't installed.

PS

The only flow control settyings that will work is XON/XOFF. The DL style
interfaces used on all PDP11 consoles, have no useful silo, and interupts
for each character input or output. None of the kernels I know support the
dataset signals, other than some will assert DTR on open.


From michi at michiw.org  Tue Jan 29 23:16:12 2002
From: michi at michiw.org (Michael Werner)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:16:12 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Problems booting PDP11/40 using vtserver
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201282352330.29712-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0201291407280.1778-100000@server.michiw.org>

Hi Johnny,

On Mon, 28 Jan 2002, Johnny Billquist wrote:
[...]
> Got the source code for that bootstrap?

Yes, I think.  It's the source code included in the vtserver2.3a-20010404
package. (Warren, this is the version I'm using.)

Greetings - Michi





From bqt at update.uu.se  Wed Jan 30 18:28:09 2002
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:28:09 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] solution for the disklabel
In-Reply-To: <PKEKIKBJNMFKLFAMAKINMEGECBAA.lothar.felten@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201300926261.29712-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Sun, 27 Jan 2002, lothar felten wrote:

> the pdp is running 2.11BSD !

Good news indeed.

> installation was no problem, but still i
> have some questions:
> my VT102 doesn´t do backspace, i only
> get ^H. i tried the
> terminal in ANSI and VT52 mode, no
> difference.

And? ^H is backspace... Are you trying to delete characters?
Typical PC confusion perhaps. For some reason the PC world have decided to
use backspace to delete characters...

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Jan 31 01:03:17 2002
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 16:03:17 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] solution for the disklabel
In-Reply-To: <10201300313.ZM20610@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201301600500.29712-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Pete Turnbull wrote:

> On Jan 27, 23:42, lothar felten wrote:
> 
> > installation was no problem, but still i
> > have some questions:
> > my VT102 doesn´t do backspace, i only
> > get ^H. i tried the
> > terminal in ANSI and VT52 mode, no
> > difference.
> 
> Maybe it wants a DEL character instead of backspace (backspace *is* ctrl-H,
> shown as ^H or ^h).  Change it on the terminal by going into setup, or use
> stty on the BSD system to change the delete character (stty del '^h').

On a real VT100 you cannot get the delete key to generate a backspace. He
must be pressing the backspace key, or he's not using a VT100 at all, but
instead some emulator, which isn't doing things the VT100 way...

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Thu Jan 31 04:14:54 2002
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 18:14:54 GMT
Subject: [pups] solution for the disklabel
In-Reply-To: Johnny Billquist <bqt@update.uu.se>
        "Re: [pups] solution for the disklabel" (Jan 30, 16:03)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201301600500.29712-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <10201301814.ZM21539@mindy.dunnington.u-net.com>

On Jan 30, 16:03, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002, Pete Turnbull wrote:

> > Maybe it wants a DEL character instead of backspace (backspace *is*
ctrl-H,
> > shown as ^H or ^h).  Change it on the terminal by going into setup, or
use
> > stty on the BSD system to change the delete character (stty del '^h').
>
> On a real VT100 you cannot get the delete key to generate a backspace. He
> must be pressing the backspace key, or he's not using a VT100 at all, but
> instead some emulator, which isn't doing things the VT100 way...

Of course.  I've spent too long using my VT420.  A real VT102 has separate
delete and backspace keys.  Probably he's using some not-really-VT102
emulation in an xterm window or some emulator.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Wed Jan  9 08:38:53 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2002 09:38:53 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: UNIX-based Mallet(t)
In-Reply-To: <20020108172809.M15074@iridium.mv.net> from "Mark E. Mallett" at
 "Jan 8, 2002 05:28:09 pm"
Message-ID: <200201082238.g08McrD08409@minnie.tuhs.org>

In article by Mark E. Mallett:
> Somebody pointed me at this URL:
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/pups/2000-January/000152.html
> 
> and others where the question of the UNIX-based mallet was being
> discussed.  It's me.. some time in the mid-80s I had submitted a
> number of entries to the calendar file and I had jokingly suggested
> that my birthday could also be included.  And apparently it was.
> 
> I enjoy seeing it pop up every August.  I notice that some calendar
> files now actually explain it, which I think is a pity :-)
> -- 
> Mark E. Mallett                  |    http://www.mv.com/users/mem/
> MV Communications, Inc.          |    http://www.mv.com/
> NH Internet Access since 1991    |    (603) 629-0000 / FAX: 629-0049

I think a few people are going to be relieved to know the answer.
Can you tell us which versions of the calendar file actually explain
it, as I've not seen them.

Thanks for this,
	Warren


From mem at mv.mv.com  Wed Jan  9 08:45:11 2002
From: mem at mv.mv.com (Mark E. Mallett)
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 17:45:11 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re: UNIX-based Mallet(t)
In-Reply-To: <200201082238.g08McrD08409@minnie.tuhs.org>; from wkt@minnie.tuhs.org on Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 09:38:53AM +1100
References: <20020108172809.M15074@iridium.mv.net> <200201082238.g08McrD08409@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20020108174511.R15074@iridium.mv.net>

On Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 09:38:53AM +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Mark E. Mallett:
> > Somebody pointed me at this URL:
> > http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/pups/2000-January/000152.html
> > 
> > I enjoy seeing it pop up every August.  I notice that some calendar
> > files now actually explain it, which I think is a pity :-)
> 
> I think a few people are going to be relieved to know the answer.
> Can you tell us which versions of the calendar file actually explain
> it, as I've not seen them.

The plural may have been premature-- the same somebody also sent me
this URL:

    http://www.cybernothing.org/pub/20-past/0814

A quick google search doesn't immediately turn up others, so maybe
it's just that one.

-mm-


From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Thu Jan 24 10:25:33 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:25:33 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license
Message-ID: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org>

All,
	Amazing news. I have been negotiating with Caldera to release the
Ancient UNIX under a BSD-style license. Well, they got it done faster
than I expected. See attached license.

I'll start removing the username/password stuff on the Unix Archive soon.

	Warren


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From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Thu Jan 24 14:51:39 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 14:51:39 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Unix Archive now available anonymously
Message-ID: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org>

All,
	With the new Caldera license, the Unix Archive is now available to
you anonymously. You can throw away those passwords now. The list of
Archive mirrors is at:

http://www.tuhs.org/archive_sites.html

and if you can become a mirror, please read

http://www.tuhs.org/mirroring.html

and send me some e-mail when you are ready to be added to the list.

I can tell you that up to now, 2,830 people obtained a SCO Ancient UNIX
license, of which 250 had to pay the US$100 to get it. I'll turn off the
CGI script which allows you to obtain a SCO license now ....

You know this means that Net/2, 4.xBSD and 2.11BSD are all freely available
now :)

Cheers,
	Warren


From jrengdahl at safeaccess.com  Fri Jan 25 00:13:05 2002
From: jrengdahl at safeaccess.com (Jonathan Engdahl)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 09:13:05 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license
References: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <010001c1a4e1$3e3f0980$e3c89782@ra.rockwell.com>

That is wonderful! Congratulations and many thanks for the tremendous
contribution.

Hurrah for Caldera and Bill Broderick, too. Thank you.

--
Jonathan Engdahl                      Rockwell Automation
Principal Research Engineer           1 Allen-Bradley Drive
Advanced Technology                   Mayfield Heights, OH 44124 USA
http://users.safeacess.com/engdahl    jrengdahl at safeaccess.com



From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Fri Jan 25 00:17:40 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 00:17:40 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Caldera license
In-Reply-To: <23C0CD62-10D1-11D6-A66D-000502F91E77@uwlax.edu> from Milo Velimirovic
 at "Jan 24, 2002 07:49:08 am"
Message-ID: <200201241417.g0OEHiu04148@minnie.tuhs.org>

In article by Milo Velimirovic:
> Warren,
> The license didn't survive the digestification process on the list -- 
> Would you be kind enough to send me a copy of the ancient-source.pdf
> directly or a URL to it?
> 
> Thanks,
> Milo

Here it is,
	Warren

http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf


From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Fri Jan 25 01:13:02 2002
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:13:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Re: Caldera license
In-Reply-To: <200201241417.g0OEHiu04148@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20020124100902.H29210-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>

Warren,
  being as you have already answered my question regarding how this
effects BSD 4.x, that leaves only one question.  Does this require
that the Caldera Copyright notice be inserted into all the source
files before they can be released anywhere??  For example, if I put
up a site for the continued develpment of Ultrix-11 do all the files
need to contain the Caldera Copyright before I can allow people to
work with them??  Mind, I don't mean the whole text of the message,
I merely mean the line Copyright Caldera 2001, 2002.......

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>



From MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 25 01:29:06 2002
From: MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:29:06 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Ancient UNIX now under a BSD license
References: <200201240025.g0O0Pb767927@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <010001c1a4e1$3e3f0980$e3c89782@ra.rockwell.com>
Message-ID: <3C502842.3090200@pacbell.net>

Jonathan Engdahl wrote:

>That is wonderful! Congratulations and many thanks for the tremendous
>contribution.
>
>Hurrah for Caldera and Bill Broderick, too. Thank you.
>
In addition to Bill, a large debt of gratitude is also owed to Dion 
Johnson, formerly of SCO,
now of Caldera.

Dion was the driving force at SCO behind the original release of  the 
"Ancient UNIX" source
code and this final milestone was almost entirely his doing as well.

I don't believe that he subscribes to either of these lists and, even if 
he does, he is far too
modest to take the credit for all of  the time and energy that he has 
put into this project
behind the scenes,  but I want to make sure that it does not go 
unrecognized.

If any of  you want to send a note of thanks to him personally, his 
email address  is:

dionj at caldera.com



From MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 25 01:43:37 2002
From: MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 07:43:37 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Re: Caldera license
References: <20020124100902.H29210-100000@server2.cs.scranton.edu>
Message-ID: <3C502BA9.5040701@pacbell.net>

Bill Gunshannon wrote:

>Warren,
>  being as you have already answered my question regarding how this
>effects BSD 4.x, that leaves only one question.  Does this require
>that the Caldera Copyright notice be inserted into all the source
>files before they can be released anywhere??  For example, if I put
>up a site for the continued develpment of Ultrix-11 do all the files
>need to contain the Caldera Copyright before I can allow people to
>work with them??  Mind, I don't mean the whole text of the message,
>I merely mean the line Copyright Caldera 2001, 2002.......
>
While I am not a lawyer, and don't speak officially for Caldera on this, 
I know that the
intent of this was not to require the addition or changing of any 
copyright notices in the
files themselves. Strictly speaking, the actual copyright ownership 
hasn't really changed.
The copyright was owned by Caldera and it still is.

The actual copyright notices which may appear in various parts of the 
source code are
historic and haven't reflected the current ownership of the code for 
years - nor do they
need to. (I believe that from a strict legal standpoint the actual 
copyright notice in the
code is essentially irrelevant)

What has changed is the license under which it may be used.

I believe that it is sufficient to provide a single copy of the license 
/ copyright text from
the letter along with any file or files that  either come directly from 
or are derived from
any of the listed operating systems.






From becker at ab.edu  Fri Jan 25 01:07:38 2002
From: becker at ab.edu (Rob Becker)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 10:07:38 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 4.4BSD and the MicroVax 3400
Message-ID: <200201242113.HAA25693@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>

Anyone here know if 4.4BSD supports the MicroVax 3400 series of machines? One 
was given to me by my school (clearing out old equipment) and I would like to 
get some pure BSD goodness on it again. Also, anyone know if it's possible to 
make tapes under VMS?
Thanks in advance,
Rob Becker


From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Fri Jan 25 08:05:31 2002
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:05:31 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] Re: Caldera license
In-Reply-To: <3C502BA9.5040701@pacbell.net> from Michael Davidson at "Jan 24,
 2002 07:43:37 am"
Message-ID: <200201242205.g0OM5V212564@minnie.tuhs.org>

In article by Michael Davidson:
> I believe that it is sufficient to provide a single copy of the license 
> / copyright text from the letter along with any file or files that
> either come directly from or are derived from
> any of the listed operating systems.

I believe that's all we need to do. I'm only going to have 1 copy
of the license agreement in the Unix Archive, with the odd pointer
to it in some of the READMEs.

	Warren


From perry at wasabisystems.com  Fri Jan 25 09:12:38 2002
From: perry at wasabisystems.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Date: 24 Jan 2002 18:12:38 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Unix Archive now available anonymously
In-Reply-To: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <87sn8vfimx.fsf@snark.piermont.com>

Warren Toomey <wkt at minnie.tuhs.org> writes:
> You know this means that Net/2, 4.xBSD and 2.11BSD are all freely available
> now :)

Not quite. Although it is obvious that UCB would intend those files to
be freely available, they never had a UCB license on their diffs from
32V per se.

It is my understanding that Kirk McKusick is working on getting this
rectified by the UCB people shortly.


--
Perry E. Metzger		perry at wasabisystems.com
--
NetBSD Development, Support & CDs. http://www.wasabisystems.com/


From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Fri Jan 25 08:47:40 2002
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 02 14:47:40 PST
Subject: [TUHS] 4.4BSD and the MicroVax 3400
Message-ID: <0201242247.AA03544@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Rob Becker <becker at ab.edu> wrote:

> Anyone here know if 4.4BSD supports the MicroVax 3400 series of machines?
>
> [...]
>
> get some pure BSD goodness on it again.

For VAXen you don't want 4.4BSD, you want 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, especially if you
want pure. Unfortunately, I haven't got the KA640 (3300/3400) support in there,
just KA650 (3500/3600) and KA655 (3800/3900). It would be trivial to add,
though, it just needs to be taught to look at the SIE in addition to the SID,
recognise the KA640, and don't try to touch the non-existent B-cache. This
wouldn't give you support for the on-board DSSI and Ethernet, but it'll run
with your Q-bus devices.

MS


From becker at ab.edu  Fri Jan 25 04:39:50 2002
From: becker at ab.edu (Rob Becker)
Date: Thu, 24 Jan 2002 13:39:50 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
Message-ID: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>

who is going to port 7th edition to the i386? (:
Rob Becker


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Jan 25 10:47:46 2002
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:47:46 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] 4.4BSD and the MicroVax 3400
In-Reply-To: <200201242113.HAA25693@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>; from becker@ab.edu on Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:07:38 CET
References: <200201242113.HAA25693@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20020125014746.J62193@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 2002.01.24 16:07 Rob Becker wrote:
> Anyone here know if 4.4BSD supports the MicroVax 3400 series of
> machines? 
This is the complete list of supported machines od 4.4BSD:
cpu             "VAX8600"
cpu             "VAX8200"
cpu             "VAX780"
cpu             "VAX750"
cpu             "VAX730"
cpu             "VAX630"
cpu             "VAX650"
As you can see, you can not see a line for the KA640 CPU of the MV3400.
So this machine is not supported by 4.4BSD.

BTW: I am planing to do a BSD exhibition at the VCFE. I want to show:
PDP 11/73 running 2.11BSD
MV II running 4.3BSD-Tahoe
MV III running 4.3BSD-Reno
HP9000 3?? running 4.3BSD-Reno
HP9000 433t, PMAX, SPARC 2 and MV3600 running 4.4BSD
Maybe I can "borrow" the 11/750 of a friend to run 4.2BSD. 

So I am looking for binary distibutions of 4.3BSD-Reno for hp300 (AFAIK
there is only a VAX version in the archive) and 4.4BSD for anything else
than hp300. If there is somthing around, please let me know. 
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


From tls at rek.tjls.com  Fri Jan 25 17:26:27 2002
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 02:26:27 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: [TUHS] Unix Archive now available anonymously
In-Reply-To: <87sn8vfimx.fsf@snark.piermont.com>
References: <200201240451.g0O4pd090062@minnie.tuhs.org> <87sn8vfimx.fsf@snark.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <20020125072627.GA8748@rek.tjls.com>

On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 06:12:38PM -0500, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> 
> Warren Toomey <wkt at minnie.tuhs.org> writes:
> > You know this means that Net/2, 4.xBSD and 2.11BSD are all freely available
> > now :)
> 
> Not quite. Although it is obvious that UCB would intend those files to
> be freely available, they never had a UCB license on their diffs from
> 32V per se.
> 
> It is my understanding that Kirk McKusick is working on getting this
> rectified by the UCB people shortly.

Oh, one other thing that springs to mind: I'm not sure Ultrix-32 is strictly 
OK to have in the archive, either; when I first tried to buy an Ultrix source
license (for Ultrix 3.1 at that time, and then again for Ultrix 4.0) I was
told that I needed not a 32V license, which I had, but a SVR2 license, which
was basically unobtainable at that time, before DEC would sell me an Ultrix
source distribution.  Did someone correct this misunderstanding before Ultrix
was placed in the archive?

Thor


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Jan 25 10:47:46 2002
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 01:47:46 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] 4.4BSD and the MicroVax 3400
In-Reply-To: <200201242113.HAA25693@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>; from becker@ab.edu on Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 16:07:38 CET
References: <200201242113.HAA25693@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20020125014746.J62193@krumm.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 2002.01.24 16:07 Rob Becker wrote:
> Anyone here know if 4.4BSD supports the MicroVax 3400 series of
> machines? 
This is the complete list of supported machines od 4.4BSD:
cpu             "VAX8600"
cpu             "VAX8200"
cpu             "VAX780"
cpu             "VAX750"
cpu             "VAX730"
cpu             "VAX630"
cpu             "VAX650"
As you can see, you can not see a line for the KA640 CPU of the MV3400.
So this machine is not supported by 4.4BSD.

BTW: I am planing to do a BSD exhibition at the VCFE. I want to show:
PDP 11/73 running 2.11BSD
MV II running 4.3BSD-Tahoe
MV III running 4.3BSD-Reno
HP9000 3?? running 4.3BSD-Reno
HP9000 433t, PMAX, SPARC 2 and MV3600 running 4.4BSD
Maybe I can "borrow" the 11/750 of a friend to run 4.2BSD. 

So I am looking for binary distibutions of 4.3BSD-Reno for hp300 (AFAIK
there is only a VAX version in the archive) and 4.4BSD for anything else
than hp300. If there is somthing around, please let me know. 
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


From P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk  Fri Jan 25 19:42:18 2002
From: P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk (P.A.Osborne)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 09:42:18 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>; from becker@ab.edu on Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 01:39:50PM -0500
References: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20020125094218.C5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>

On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 01:39:50PM -0500, Rob Becker wrote:
> who is going to port 7th edition to the i386? (:

OK I know that the comment was a joke but...

Funnily enough I started looking at doing just that around 18 months 
ago.  Unfortunately (from that point of view) it ground to a halt when
wedding arrangements took priority.   

Anyhow the wedding is out of the way - the missus is now a computing 
student so I should get some sympathy from her (she likes Unix :-), so
hopefully I can resurrect my notes etc and start working on it again. 

No promises mind as I havent touched C or assembly for around 18months
now so am getting increasily rusty.  Not that my x86 assembler is 
particulary good,  or that the missus will allow me enough free time to
get my head back into coding at home...

So the following is what I can remember from quite a while ago...

Also from what I did look at,  I rapidly came to the conclusion that 
a "real" mode i386 port was the more straight forward as that keeps
everything in 16 bits and saves a lot of mucking around.  

So you could either rewrite it as a process that runs as 16 bits and
so use it as an app under say Linux/FreeBSD/OS/2  (I wont mention the
people from Redmond :-),   or as a 16 bit OS running native.

Either way the first skirmishes I made with the source lead me to 
believe that in simple terms, the following would need to be completed:
-  rewrite the assembler portion to x86 - memory management/interrupt
   handlers/booting and initialisation etc etc
-  rewrite the disk driver to run the floppy drive (1.4 MB should be
   enough to demonstrate it works and boot a kernel etc)
-  the tty stuff could conceivably be pointed at COM1 and you could
   hang a console/teletype (for the sad) onto the back of a PC  or
   just produce suitable keyboard/screen drivers.

With any joy if the assembler level can be done correctly (device drivers
aside) you could theoretically leave the bulk of the C source intact - which
could possibly make it a purer port, assuming you can get gcc to compile 
K&R C - I havent tried yet.


Anyhow comments and sarcastic remarks are welcome.

Regards

Paul


------------
Paul Osborne
Computing Officer
University of Kent at Canterbury Computing Service


From imp at village.org  Fri Jan 25 20:27:25 2002
From: imp at village.org (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 03:27:25 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <20020125094218.C5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
References: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>
	<20020125094218.C5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org>

In message: <20020125094218.C5968 at apple.ukc.ac.uk>
            "P.A.Osborne" <P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk> writes:
: Also from what I did look at,  I rapidly came to the conclusion that 
: a "real" mode i386 port was the more straight forward as that keeps
: everything in 16 bits and saves a lot of mucking around.  

Real as in 286 or as in 8088 :-).  I've love to have a v7 port to my
DEC Rainbow 100, which isn't too IBM-PC-like other than the fact that
both have an 8088.  There was a 8088 port of V7 (or maybe it was v6)
to the Rainbow marketed under the name of venix, but no one seems to
be able to find a distribution anymore.

: With any joy if the assembler level can be done correctly (device drivers
: aside) you could theoretically leave the bulk of the C source intact - which
: could possibly make it a purer port, assuming you can get gcc to compile 
: K&R C - I havent tried yet.

gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7
days.  =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc.  There are some other subtle
things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed
the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's.

Warner


From P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk  Fri Jan 25 21:16:37 2002
From: P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk (P.A.Osborne)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:16:37 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org>; from imp@village.org on Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700
References: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020125094218.C5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk> <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org>
Message-ID: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>

On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote:
> Real as in 286 or as in 8088 :-).  

Yup,  otherwise you start mucking around with the protected mode
shuffle to 32 bits and I have been burnt by that before.  The ix86
chips are startup from cold in 16bit mode so it makes life easier.

> I've love to have a v7 port to my
> DEC Rainbow 100, which isn't too IBM-PC-like other than the fact that
> both have an 8088.  There was a 8088 port of V7 (or maybe it was v6)
> to the Rainbow marketed under the name of venix, but no one seems to
> be able to find a distribution anymore.

Oooh that would be so usefull and save so much mucking around.

> gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7
> days.  =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc.  There are some other subtle
> things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed
> the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's.

That makes things a challenge.  Still the source of the kernel is
around 10K lines IIRC and going through it in stages doesnt make life
too painfull.

I must be mad thinking about this again....


paul


From ephrem at bensusan.net  Sat Jan 26 01:19:58 2002
From: ephrem at bensusan.net (Ephrem Hugh Bensusan)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:19:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0201251013350.610-100000@barclay>

It seems that there is a distribution of Venix hanging about, but I
believe it is for the DEC PRO 350 or 380.  So I don't know how useful 
it might be in this context.

In any case, one can find it at:
http://www.os2site.com/sw/dec/pro/venix/

-- 
Ephrem Hugh Bensusan                    EMail: ephrem at bensusan.net
                                        Phone: 352.687.3757


-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GIT/CS d? s--:+ a C++++$ UB/L++++$ P++> L+++$ E W++(+++)$ N++> o? K++ w-- 
O M? V-- PS+++(--) PE Y+ PGP+ t++* 5- X++ R tv- b+++> DI-- D+ 
G++ e* h----(-)* r+++ y++++(+++(--)) 
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

On Fri, 25 Jan 2002, P.A.Osborne wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote:
> > Real as in 286 or as in 8088 :-).  
> 
> Yup,  otherwise you start mucking around with the protected mode
> shuffle to 32 bits and I have been burnt by that before.  The ix86
> chips are startup from cold in 16bit mode so it makes life easier.
> 
> > I've love to have a v7 port to my
> > DEC Rainbow 100, which isn't too IBM-PC-like other than the fact that
> > both have an 8088.  There was a 8088 port of V7 (or maybe it was v6)
> > to the Rainbow marketed under the name of venix, but no one seems to
> > be able to find a distribution anymore.
> 
> Oooh that would be so usefull and save so much mucking around.
> 
> > gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7
> > days.  =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc.  There are some other subtle
> > things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed
> > the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's.
> 
> That makes things a challenge.  Still the source of the kernel is
> around 10K lines IIRC and going through it in stages doesnt make life
> too painfull.
> 
> I must be mad thinking about this again....
> 
> 
> paul
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 



From jss at subatomix.com  Sat Jan 26 03:30:27 2002
From: jss at subatomix.com (Jeffrey S. Sharp)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:30:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <20020125094218.C5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <20020125112541.L9918-100000@kenny.subatomix.com>

On Thursday, 24 Jan 2002, Rob Becker wrote:

> who is going to port 7th edition to the i386? (:

Well, I surely wouldn't mind if people made it work on more PDP-11s than
just a /45 or /70 with RP disks.

--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss at subatomix.com



From imp at village.org  Sat Jan 26 01:52:28 2002
From: imp at village.org (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 08:52:28 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0201251013350.610-100000@barclay>
References: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
	<Pine.GSO.4.21.0201251013350.610-100000@barclay>
Message-ID: <20020125.085228.119666403.imp@village.org>

In message: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0201251013350.610-100000 at barclay>
            Ephrem Hugh Bensusan <ephrem at bensusan.net> writes:
: It seems that there is a distribution of Venix hanging about, but I
: believe it is for the DEC PRO 350 or 380.  So I don't know how useful 
: it might be in this context.
: 
: In any case, one can find it at:
: http://www.os2site.com/sw/dec/pro/venix/

I think this is binary only...  Maybe it would make a good addition to
the TUHS archive, however...

Warner




From djenner at earthlink.net  Sat Jan 26 07:08:40 2002
From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 13:08:40 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
References: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
		<Pine.GSO.4.21.0201251013350.610-100000@barclay> <20020125.085228.119666403.imp@village.org>
Message-ID: <3C51C958.E1FEAF09@earthlink.net>

This Venix has been available from Barry Kort and ftp.update.uu.se/professional
for many years.  It is "Pro/Venix" versions 1 and 2.  Pro/Venix came directly
from VentureCom, the vendor who ported it.  More desirable is "Venix/Pro"
especially version 2.  Venix/Pro came from DEC, who got it from VentureCom and
spiffed it up a bit for the Pro.  Anyone who has or comes across floppies for
Venix/Pro from DEC should really archive them (and please let me know!  I have
a set of floppies with one or two bad disks).

Whether this is "legal" or not is up to some question.  VentureCom put Pro/Venix
out in the public domain, but the only "proof" of this is its widely available
existence and a verbal statement from the person who first got it.  At some
point in the past, I think Bob Supnik thought it was reasonable that DEC would
put its interests in the product in the Ancient Unix license, but he no longer
works for DEC.  There is also some question whether this Venix was ported from
System III, which would eliminate it from the Ancient Unix license and the new
form of it.

Dave

"M. Warner Losh" wrote:
> 
> In message: <Pine.GSO.4.21.0201251013350.610-100000 at barclay>
>             Ephrem Hugh Bensusan <ephrem at bensusan.net> writes:
> : It seems that there is a distribution of Venix hanging about, but I
> : believe it is for the DEC PRO 350 or 380.  So I don't know how useful
> : it might be in this context.
> :
> : In any case, one can find it at:
> : http://www.os2site.com/sw/dec/pro/venix/
> 
> I think this is binary only...  Maybe it would make a good addition to
> the TUHS archive, however...
> 
> Warner
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
David C. Jenner
djenner at earthlink.net


From rupp at chello.at  Sat Jan 26 02:24:39 2002
From: rupp at chello.at (Wolfgang Rupp)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:24:39 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
References: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org> <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200201251624.g0PGOd101040@tk212017121038.teleweb.at>

On Friday 25 January 2002 12:16, P.A.Osborne wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote:
> > There was a 8088 port of V7 (or maybe it
> > was v6) to the Rainbow marketed under the name of venix, but no one
> > seems to be able to find a distribution anymore.
>
> Oooh that would be so usefull and save so much mucking around.

ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix

HTH

Wolfgang Rupp


From rupp at chello.at  Sat Jan 26 02:30:34 2002
From: rupp at chello.at (Wolfgang Rupp)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 17:30:34 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
References: <200201250045.KAA31838@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au> <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org> <20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200201251630.g0PGUZ101084@tk212017121038.teleweb.at>

On Friday 25 January 2002 12:16, P.A.Osborne wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote:
> > I've love to have a v7 port to my
> > DEC Rainbow 100

oops... I only read "Venix" and jumped to conclusions.
Sorry. 

However, under /pub/rainbow there is rainbow stuff
on ftp.update.uu.se too.


Wolfgang Rupp


From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Sat Jan 26 05:18:31 2002
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:18:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
Message-ID: <200201251918.LAA23410@chiton.ucsd.edu>

> From: "P.A.Osborne" <P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk>
> To: "M. Warner Losh" <imp at village.org>
> Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 11:16:37 +0000
> 
> On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote:
> > Real as in 286 or as in 8088 :-).  
> 
> 
> > gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7
> > days.  =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc.  There are some other subtle
> > things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed
> > the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's.
> 
> That makes things a challenge.  Still the source of the kernel is
> around 10K lines IIRC and going through it in stages doesnt make life
> too painfull.

Doesn't one of the C beautifiers do that for you (rewrite =+ etc.)
Either GNU indent or Berkeley? cb.

    carl
-- 
        carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu


From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com  Sun Jan 27 00:50:21 2002
From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2002 09:50:21 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
Message-ID: <20020126095020.A7068@arundel.fortyfour.org>

> On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote:
>
> gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7
> days.  =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc.  There are some other subtle
> things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed
> the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's.

I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+="
in the move from V6 to V7.  I think structure assignments were added
here too, and the much more obscure, being able to declare passed
arguments in the function preamble as "register."  I believe K&R
reflects the C language as seen with V7...

-- Ken


From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Mon Jan 28 05:03:40 2002
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 14:03:40 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
Message-ID: <200201271904.FAA17642@guardian-ext.bond.edu.au>

Ken Wellsch:

  I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+="
  in the move from V6 to V7.  I think structure assignments were added
  here too, and the much more obscure, being able to declare passed
  arguments in the function preamble as "register."  I believe K&R
  reflects the C language as seen with V7...

The V7 C compiler accepted =+, but it still accepted += as well; there was
a lot of code written the old way, and nobody wanted to be forced to convert
everything all at once.  Similarly, the V7 compiler complained about implicit
conversions between pointers of different types, or between ints and pointers,
but they were treated as warnings, not fatal errors; you could still compile
old code and just ignore the compiler's fussing.

I recall that when I arrived at Bell Labs in 1984, it was apparently not long
after the research group's C compiler had been changed to treat all the
obsolete stuff as errors; certainly there was still code in /usr/src that
hadn't been updated, and all of it had been recompiled recently to run on
the VAX.

A modern C compiler would choke even on some of the stuff that was legal
in those days.  Recently I recompiled tbl with lcc, and had a grand time
cleaning out all the ideas we all thought were clever in the late 1970s
but most of us would never think of doing now.  For those with the virgin
source handy, take a look at subroutine `point' and the way it is used
and abused.

Norman Wilson


From grog at lemis.com  Mon Jan 28 09:58:29 2002
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 10:28:29 +1030
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <20020126095020.A7068@arundel.fortyfour.org>
References: <20020126095020.A7068@arundel.fortyfour.org>
Message-ID: <20020128102829.I72512@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Saturday, 26 January 2002 at  9:50:21 -0500, Ken Wellsch wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote:
>>
>> gcc can compile K&R, but the language has evolved some since the v7
>> days.  =*, =+, etc became *=, +=, etc.  There are some other subtle
>> things too that I don't recall off the top of my head, but which vexed
>> the comp.lang.c news groups in the early 1980's.
>
> I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+="
> in the move from V6 to V7.

I thought so too, but I checked, and there are some still in there.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From sven_dehmlow at web.de  Mon Jan 28 02:10:39 2002
From: sven_dehmlow at web.de (Sven Dehmlow)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 17:10:39 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Porting Unix v6 to i386
Message-ID: <02012717103901.00631@linux>

Hi,
The last few weeks I've thought a lot about porting Unix v6 to the 
PC. Here are my "results":

1. If you really want to do it, don't do it from scratch. Porting 
Unix 1:1 maybe the usual way but integrating your code step by step 
into another Unix or Unix-a-like operating system will surely become 
much easier as you can test the result in every stage of development. 
Another benefit is of course that with a little bit of luck you don't 
have to rewrite all the machine dependent stuff as it might already 
exist in the other os. If you want to do things this way ELKS (the 
Linux kernel subset for the 8088) might be a good candidate as it is 
very simple and by this very easy to understand. Also there is a big 
Linux/ELKS community which might help you with some problems.

2.Another question is if it is really necessary to port when so many 
good emulators for the PDP11 exist. Of course a ported Unix is faster 
than one running on a simulator but is fastness really so important 
in times where multi-processor machines exist that make your 1.5Ghz 
machine look like a fool? Also wouldn't a user who needs a 
professional fast Unix (or a-like) take the newest Linux or one of 
the BSDs instead of Unix v6? 
The main reason for porting is from my point of view to get access to 
the i86's hardware. But for reaching this aim a port isn't necessary. 
You can either develop the emulated machine further so that it has 
additional devices (and interupts, etc. for them) or you can try to 
give the os on the emulated machine direct access to the real 
machine. This may sound a little bit strange and unusual but will 
save much code in the emulator as you don't have to code for each 
device twice (one time in the emulator and one time in the os). Of 
course the os you're running your emulator on must give you the 
chance to get direct access to the real hardware, but I found a DOS 
port from Bob Supniks J-11 emulator so that is not a real problem.
Currently I'm working on the latter idea (on the emulator which gives 
you direct access to the hardware), but in fact I haven't written a 
line of code yet as I'm still searching for the best way to integrate 
the interesting parts of PC's memory into PDP11's memory. The idea is 
to put the interesting parts of PC's memory behind PDP11's memory and 
to change some lines in Unix that for example malloc doesn't get the 
idea to give this pieces of memory away to user programs. Putting the 
PC's memory before the memory space of the PDP11 would as far as I 
can see make more changes especially in the code relevant for booting 
necessary. Other things like for example PC's interupts will surely 
make much less trouble.

Suggestions, ideas, opinions, etc. are very welcome. If someone feels 
the urge to help me with this project it would be very kind if he 
would let me know ;-)

BTW: if someone has patches to the v6 or ported programs it would be 
very kind if he would send them to me. If I get enough stuff I'll 
make something like a new Unix v6 distribution.

Sven


From imp at village.org  Tue Jan 29 16:17:42 2002
From: imp at village.org (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 23:17:42 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <200201251624.g0PGOd101040@tk212017121038.teleweb.at>
References: <20020125.032725.51748274.imp@village.org>
	<20020125111637.F5968@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
	<200201251624.g0PGOd101040@tk212017121038.teleweb.at>
Message-ID: <20020128.231742.74361641.imp@village.org>

In message: <200201251624.g0PGOd101040 at tk212017121038.teleweb.at>
            Wolfgang Rupp <rupp at chello.at> writes:
: On Friday 25 January 2002 12:16, P.A.Osborne wrote:
: > On Fri, Jan 25, 2002 at 03:27:25AM -0700, M. Warner Losh wrote:
: > > There was a 8088 port of V7 (or maybe it
: > > was v6) to the Rainbow marketed under the name of venix, but no one
: > > seems to be able to find a distribution anymore.
: >
: > Oooh that would be so usefull and save so much mucking around.
: 
: ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix

This is not the Rainbow version, but instead the PRO version.  I'd
love to see the DEC Rainbow (or even the IBM PC) verions available.

Warner


From jonathan.naylor at ggaweb.ch  Tue Jan 29 07:03:45 2002
From: jonathan.naylor at ggaweb.ch (Jonathan Naylor)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2002 22:03:45 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <02012717103901.00631@linux>
References: <02012717103901.00631@linux>
Message-ID: <02012822034503.20290@g4klx>

Hi Sven

I can't help feel that you've missed the point of wanting to port UNIX 
edition 6 or 7 to the PC. Its a challenge, nothing more, nothing less. I have 
run both editions on Bob Supniks excellent emulator (now with PDP-10 support 
BTW) and they're great, but it'd be ultra cool to boot it directly on a PC.

I would guess that VMWare would be a great host, or maybe its open source 
equivalents (Plex86 or Bochs) so that you could save the reboot cycles. I 
would also try porting V7 instead of V6, at least initially. With so much 
open source code out there, it'd be a relatively simple task to find C code 
for IDE disc access and such like. I would even suggest getting older Linux 
code from the 2.0.x days as its likely to be a little less complex, while 
still being stable.

Just my 0.02 EURO.

Jonathan


From imp at village.org  Wed Jan 30 09:10:18 2002
From: imp at village.org (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 16:10:18 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <02012822034503.20290@g4klx>
References: <02012717103901.00631@linux>
	<02012822034503.20290@g4klx>
Message-ID: <20020129.161018.09582254.imp@village.org>

In message: <02012822034503.20290 at g4klx>
            Jonathan Naylor <jonathan.naylor at ggaweb.ch> writes:
: I would guess that VMWare would be a great host, or maybe its open source 
: equivalents (Plex86 or Bochs) so that you could save the reboot cycles. I 
: would also try porting V7 instead of V6, at least initially. With so much 
: open source code out there, it'd be a relatively simple task to find C code 
: for IDE disc access and such like. I would even suggest getting older Linux 
: code from the 2.0.x days as its likely to be a little less complex, while 
: still being stable.

There is a stripped down Linux port called Elks to the x86 right now.
It seems to work OK for these old 8088 machines (and newer ones in the
psion).  But I'm still none-the-less drawn towards a v7 port :-)...

Warner


From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com  Wed Jan 30 11:40:28 2002
From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 20:40:28 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
Message-ID: <20020129204028.B15866@arundel.fortyfour.org>

On Sun, Jan 27, 2002 at 02:03:40PM -0500, norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca wrote:
> 
> > Ken Wellsch:
> > I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+="
> > in the move from V6 to V7.
> 
> The V7 C compiler accepted =+, but it still accepted += as well; there was
> a lot of code written the old way, and nobody wanted to be forced to convert
> everything all at once.  

Apologies, typical of my terse replies - I was actually concerned
with clearing up the possible misconception that "=+" was a "feature"
of V7 rather than an "obsolete" holdover from V6.  I suppose historic
accuracy in this context is of little use, I don't know.  I certainly
can believe one can find such artifacts in the existing V7 code 8-)

Cheers,

-- Ken


From agrier at poofygoof.com  Wed Jan 30 11:57:58 2002
From: agrier at poofygoof.com (Aaron J. Grier)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 17:57:58 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <no.id>; from jonathan.naylor@ggaweb.ch on Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 10:03:45PM +0100
Message-ID: <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>

On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 10:03:45PM +0100, Jonathan Naylor wrote:

> With so much open source code out there, it'd be a relatively simple
> task to find C code for IDE disc access and such like. I would even
> suggest getting older Linux code from the 2.0.x days as its likely to
> be a little less complex, while still being stable.

Linux!?  why not one of the three BSD-licensed BSD-derived Net/Free/Open
BSDs?  keep it "in the family" so to speak.  :)

-- 
  Aaron J. Grier | "Not your ordinary poofy goof." | agrier at poofygoof.com
      "[...] I generally haven't found IDM guys to be very good
       live acts, most of them just sit down at their laptop and
       tweak reaktor."  -- Brandon Daniel


From sven_dehmlow at web.de  Tue Jan 29 23:47:06 2002
From: sven_dehmlow at web.de (Sven Dehmlow)
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2002 14:47:06 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <02012822034503.20290@g4klx>
References: <02012717103901.00631@linux> <02012822034503.20290@g4klx>
Message-ID: <02012914470600.00631@linux>

On Monday 28 January 2002 22:03, Jonathan Naylor wrote:
> Hi Sven
>
> I can't help feel that you've missed the point of wanting to port
> UNIX edition 6 or 7 to the PC. Its a challenge, nothing more,
> nothing less. I have run both editions on Bob Supniks excellent
> emulator (now with PDP-10 support BTW) and they're great, but it'd
> be ultra cool to boot it directly on a PC.

I can't agree more, it would even be more than ultra cool to be able 
to boot Unix 6th Edition directly on your PC.
But I can't make a complete (and everything else would be senseless) 
port on my own as this would from my point of view mean to much work 
for a single individual. I try to do as much as I can but if you want 
to get a real port we've to found an open source project for reaching 
this aim.

>
> I would guess that VMWare would be a great host, or maybe its open
> source equivalents (Plex86 or Bochs) so that you could save the
> reboot cycles. I would also try porting V7 instead of V6, at least
> initially. With so much open source code out there, it'd be a
> relatively simple task to find C code for IDE disc access and such
> like. I would even suggest getting older Linux code from the 2.0.x
> days as its likely to be a little less complex, while still being
> stable.

Well, this are details. The question to be answered before we can 
start thinking about them is this one above: Do we start an open 
source project for porting Unix or not?

>
> Just my 0.02 EURO.

You should notice that it is dangerous to talk about the EURO with 
me. I always become very aggressive... ;-)

>
> Jonathan

Sven


From P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk  Wed Jan 30 19:18:42 2002
From: P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk (P.A.Osborne)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:18:42 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>; from agrier@poofygoof.com on Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 05:57:58PM -0800
References: <no.id> <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>
Message-ID: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk>

On Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 05:57:58PM -0800, Aaron J. Grier wrote:
> > With so much open source code out there, it'd be a relatively simple
> > task to find C code for IDE disc access and such like. I would even
> > suggest getting older Linux code from the 2.0.x days as its likely to
> > be a little less complex, while still being stable.
> 
> Linux!?  why not one of the three BSD-licensed BSD-derived Net/Free/Open
> BSDs?  keep it "in the family" so to speak.  :)

Well that is what I intended,  certainly as a starting reference for
floppy, console drivers etc - IDE can wait till later.  Initially I 
would like to get v6 or 7 (probably 6 as the Lions commentary is
available) booting a kernel.   

Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now
open source and free!  www.openwatcom.org),  nasm etc etc so I should
now have enough bits and bobs to compile 16 bit code - as gcc doesnt.

Of course if someone wants to rewrite the version of cc that comes
with V6 so it generates x86 binaries rather than pdp binaries, that
would be the utimate aim I guess.  That way you could run V6 on a
PC and get it to compile its own kernel....

Having had a rummage and a chat with acolleague here at
UKC - it seems that V6 will be easier than V7,  partially because
of the Lions commentary - but mainly because 286 protected mode 
gives a very similar handling on memory management as the PDP did.

Paul


From sven_dehmlow at web.de  Thu Jan 31 04:00:49 2002
From: sven_dehmlow at web.de (Sven Dehmlow)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 19:00:49 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
References: <no.id> <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com> <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <02013019004900.00631@linux>

On Wednesday 30 January 2002 10:18, P.A.Osborne wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 29, 2002 at 05:57:58PM -0800, Aaron J. Grier wrote:

> Well that is what I intended,  certainly as a starting reference
> for floppy, console drivers etc - IDE can wait till later. 
> Initially I would like to get v6 or 7 (probably 6 as the Lions
> commentary is available) booting a kernel.
>
> Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now
> open source and free!  www.openwatcom.org),  nasm etc etc so I
> should now have enough bits and bobs to compile 16 bit code - as
> gcc doesnt.
>
> Of course if someone wants to rewrite the version of cc that comes
> with V6 so it generates x86 binaries rather than pdp binaries, that
> would be the utimate aim I guess.  That way you could run V6 on a
> PC and get it to compile its own kernel....

Getting the ported kernel compiled while running itself will not be a 
serious problem independent from the compiler as long as it's source 
code is available and it is written for the machine to compile on. 
Porting a compiler from one operating system to another is a fool 
compared with porting an operating system from one machine to 
another. Give me the port of Unix and I'll give you the ported x86 C 
compiler... ;-)

>
> Having had a rummage and a chat with acolleague here at
> UKC - it seems that V6 will be easier than V7,  partially because
> of the Lions commentary - but mainly because 286 protected mode
> gives a very similar handling on memory management as the PDP did.

Yes, and I think that v7 was a further development from v6. 
Developing something further is always more fun and by this more easy 
than developing something back.

Sven


From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Jan 31 05:50:31 2002
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:50:31 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <02013019004900.00631@linux>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201302047470.29712-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Wednesday 30 January 2002 10:18, P.A.Osborne wrote:
> Having had a rummage and a chat with acolleague here at
> UKC - it seems that V6 will be easier than V7,  partially because
> of the Lions commentary - but mainly because 286 protected mode
> gives a very similar handling on memory management as the PDP did.

What a silly argument. V6 and V7 both run on the PDP-11, so the memory
management hardware used by them both are the same.

And while I'm not familiar with the 286 protected mode, I have heard
people before claim that it is horrendous compared to the MMU on the
PDP-11.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From mike at ducky.net  Thu Jan 31 05:52:00 2002
From: mike at ducky.net (Mike Haertel)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 11:52:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966@ducky.net>

>Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now
>open source and free!  www.openwatcom.org)

They have announced that it *will be* open source and free,
but so far as far as I can tell there is nothing available
at openwatcom.org except a binary-only patch to upgrade 
the last commercial version 11 to 11.0c.

So, it isn't yet.  Right now it's just vaporware.


From imp at village.org  Thu Jan 31 06:54:03 2002
From: imp at village.org (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:54:03 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966@ducky.net>
References: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk>
	<200201301952.g0UJq0E39966@ducky.net>
Message-ID: <20020130.135403.48398950.imp@village.org>

In message: <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966 at ducky.net>
            Mike Haertel <mike at ducky.net> writes:
: >Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now
: >open source and free!  www.openwatcom.org)
: 
: They have announced that it *will be* open source and free,
: but so far as far as I can tell there is nothing available
: at openwatcom.org except a binary-only patch to upgrade 
: the last commercial version 11 to 11.0c.
: 
: So, it isn't yet.  Right now it's just vaporware.

The only compiler I know of that deals properly with generating 16-bit
x86 code is bcc, which the Elks folks use to build their kernel.  This
is Bruce Evan's compiler with support for prototypes bolted on, iirc.

	http://www.cix.co.uk/~mayday/

It is a tad Linux centric, but I was able to get it to build with only
a few tweaks on FreeBSD.  It is sufficient to build the elks tree, but
I've not tried it on anything else.

Warner


From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Thu Jan 31 07:52:41 2002
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 08:52:41 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
Message-ID: <200201302152.IAA31121@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>

I think that v7 would be far easier to port than v6. Although it's not much
bigger than v6, the code is a lot cleaner, and there are less machine
dependencies.  One of the reasons for a lot of the changes between v6 and v7
was a conscious effort to make it more portable . The old assignment operators
like '=+' changed to "+=".  'Unsigned' and 'long' data types are missing
from v6 (and reflected in the kernel), so all integer calculations were 16
bits. Unsigned ops were done using 'char *'. v7 was ported to the Vax and the
Interdata.

ioctl is there, and the 'standard io' library. The file seek call in v6 had
either block (512) or byte offsets, and v7 introduced lseek to replace it. Only
16 bits were used to store block numbers in inodes, so filesystem sizes were
restricted (not a real problem since both v6 and v7 could run happily on a 2.5Mb
RK05 disk, including swap space and c compiler). 'vi' ran under v7, but v6 only
offered 'ed' (or variants like 'em') and 'qed'

If you hadn't guessed, v7 is by far my favourite Unix variant. Lean, clean and
without the latter clutter of supporting networking in the kernel.



From MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 31 07:40:05 2002
From: MichaelDavidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson)
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2002 13:40:05 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201302047470.29712-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <3C586835.DB25F59F@pacbell.net>

Johnny Billquist wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday 30 January 2002 10:18, P.A.Osborne wrote:
> > Having had a rummage and a chat with acolleague here at
> > UKC - it seems that V6 will be easier than V7,  partially because
> > of the Lions commentary - but mainly because 286 protected mode
> > gives a very similar handling on memory management as the PDP did.
> 
> What a silly argument. V6 and V7 both run on the PDP-11, so the memory
> management hardware used by them both are the same.
> 
> And while I'm not familiar with the 286 protected mode, I have heard
> people before claim that it is horrendous compared to the MMU on the
> PDP-11.
> 

Well, I tend to agree that there probably isn't really much difference
in the difficulty of porting either V6 or V7 to an Intel x86 processor.

The real deciding factor will (and should) be which version you *want*
to port and why you want to port it in the first place.

While the Intel architecture is very different from that of the PDP-11
it is possible to set up an IA-32 processor in such a way as to give
you an environment which is quite similar to the one in which V7
expected to run.

16 bit protected mode can effectively give you a 64k+64k split i&d
address space for both user and kernel mode and if you enable paging
then you can map the underlying physical memory in 4096 byte pages
wherever you want it to be. Once it's all set up correctly, most of
the Intel MMU architecture can be ignored and pretty much all the 
kernel has to do is to manipulate 64 entries in a page table (16+16
for user i+d and 16+16 for kernel i+d).

Rather than hack all of the code to build with a modern C compiler
I would look seriously at the possibility of getting either pcc or
the original Ritchie C compiler to generate x86 code. 

(This has, of course, been done before as anyone who ever used
Xenix version 2.x on Intel machines will know - right down to
32 bit longs with PDP-11 word ordering ...)

One possibility which actually isn't as bad as it sounds is to
treat the pdp-11 assembler output of the C compiler as an intermediate 
language and have an additional compiler pass that effectively
converted from pdp11 assembler to x86 assembler.

A good convertor would do enough basic block analysis to be
able to keep track of live registers and condition codes and
would essentially recompile from pdp11 to x86 assembler.
My guess is that with a little care it should be possible to
keep the code expansion resulting from such a translation
process to a minimum.

Even a fairly simple minded conversion probably wouldn't be
too bad.


From grog at lemis.com  Thu Jan 31 08:44:08 2002
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:14:08 +1030
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>
References: <no.id>; <20020129175758.Q20875@goldberry.poofy.goof.com>
Message-ID: <20020131091407.A38947@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 29 January 2002 at 17:57:58 -0800, Aaron J. Grier wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 10:03:45PM +0100, Jonathan Naylor wrote:
>
>> With so much open source code out there, it'd be a relatively simple
>> task to find C code for IDE disc access and such like. I would even
>> suggest getting older Linux code from the 2.0.x days as its likely to
>> be a little less complex, while still being stable.
>
> Linux!?  why not one of the three BSD-licensed BSD-derived Net/Free/Open
> BSDs?  keep it "in the family" so to speak.  :)

An obvious reason to prefer the BSD code is that the kernel interfaces
are pretty much the same.  There are some significant differences in
Linux.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From grog at lemis.com  Thu Jan 31 08:47:03 2002
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 09:17:03 +1030
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <20020130.135403.48398950.imp@village.org>
References: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966@ducky.net> <20020130.135403.48398950.imp@village.org>
Message-ID: <20020131091703.B38947@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 30 January 2002 at 13:54:03 -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
> In message: <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966 at ducky.net>
>             Mike Haertel <mike at ducky.net> writes:
>>> Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now
>>> open source and free!  www.openwatcom.org)
>>
>> They have announced that it *will be* open source and free,
>> but so far as far as I can tell there is nothing available
>> at openwatcom.org except a binary-only patch to upgrade
>> the last commercial version 11 to 11.0c.
>>
>> So, it isn't yet.  Right now it's just vaporware.
>
> The only compiler I know of that deals properly with generating 16-bit
> x86 code is bcc, which the Elks folks use to build their kernel.  This
> is Bruce Evan's compiler with support for prototypes bolted on, iirc.
>
> 	http://www.cix.co.uk/~mayday/
>
> It is a tad Linux centric, but I was able to get it to build with only
> a few tweaks on FreeBSD.  It is sufficient to build the elks tree, but
> I've not tried it on anything else.

Both the Sixth and Seventh editions contain code which doesn't compile
with modern compilers (the dreaded =-, for example).  What do you want
to do with that?  Of course you can fix it, but then you can go
further and further and end up with 4.4BSD.  I think that if you're
going to do this, you'll want to do it with as few code changes as
possible.  This would really suggest modifying the compiler to
generate i86 code.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From grant.maizels at cogita.com.au  Thu Jan 31 09:51:44 2002
From: grant.maizels at cogita.com.au (Grant Maizels)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:51:44 +1100
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
Message-ID: <C5CCF7A1C493F74B9F10BEAE7BC2F033079C4C@sydnt4.cogita.local>

Actually I have 8086 C compilers on my old Altos systems (486 and 586)
running Xenix.
The OS on the 486 is a very early version of Xenix which is really a
slightly modified version of v7.

If the machine still works (has not been turned on for a few years), I may
be able to set it up so that it can be accessed through a terminal server
off the internet so that it can be used to do compiles.

I think that Microsoft may own the copyrights on these old compilers (not
sure), but it would be nice if the source was publicy available (or even
binaries).

If the machine still works (has not been turned on for a few years), I may
be able to set it up so that it can be accessed through a terminal server
off the internet so that it can be used to do compiles.

The 486 with v7 has an 8086, 512k memory, 12Meg hard disk. With the full V7
OS, including c (lex, yacc, ...) , troff, and some Microsoft add-ons
(fortran, cobol, mutimate??) fits in 7 Meg.

Grant Maizles


P.S. The 486 and 586 names refer to the number of supported users which the
machine can handle and the fact that it has a 8086 CPU. The configs were

486 5 Serial ports (1 for a printer)
586 6 Serial ports

I had a customer with a 986 which had 10 serial ports.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: M. Warner Losh [mailto:imp at village.org]
> Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2002 7:54 AM
> To: mike at ducky.net
> Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
> 
> 
> In message: <200201301952.g0UJq0E39966 at ducky.net>
>             Mike Haertel <mike at ducky.net> writes:
> : >Anyhow I have started gathering the tools (Watcom C compiler now
> : >open source and free!  www.openwatcom.org)
> : 
> : They have announced that it *will be* open source and free,
> : but so far as far as I can tell there is nothing available
> : at openwatcom.org except a binary-only patch to upgrade 
> : the last commercial version 11 to 11.0c.
> : 
> : So, it isn't yet.  Right now it's just vaporware.
> 
> The only compiler I know of that deals properly with generating 16-bit
> x86 code is bcc, which the Elks folks use to build their kernel.  This
> is Bruce Evan's compiler with support for prototypes bolted on, iirc.
> 
> 	http://www.cix.co.uk/~mayday/
> 
> It is a tad Linux centric, but I was able to get it to build with only
> a few tweaks on FreeBSD.  It is sufficient to build the elks tree, but
> I've not tried it on anything else.
> 
> Warner
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 


From joerg at begemot.org  Thu Jan 31 10:29:23 2002
From: joerg at begemot.org (Joerg Micheel)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 13:29:23 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
In-Reply-To: <20020128102829.I72512@wantadilla.lemis.com>; from grog@lemis.com on Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 10:28:29AM +1030
References: <20020126095020.A7068@arundel.fortyfour.org> <20020128102829.I72512@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <20020131132923.A34968@begemot.org>

On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 10:28:29AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
> > I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+="
> > in the move from V6 to V7.
> 
> I thought so too, but I checked, and there are some still in there.

Indeed, I remember those well, when we had to bootstrap the compiler
on a PDP-11 running RSX-11M.

	Joerg



From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Thu Jan 31 11:03:04 2002
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:03:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] So now that the source is finally out...
Message-ID: <200201310103.MAA01661@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>

> > I'm fairly sure things like "=+" and so on were replaced with "+="
> > in the move from V6 to V7.
> 
> I thought so too, but I checked, and there are some still in there.

I think you'll find that the kernel code is clean, but a lot of the older
utilities will show their earlier lineage (including the C compiler)



From Lauri.Aarnio at nixu.com  Thu Jan 31 19:18:06 2002
From: Lauri.Aarnio at nixu.com (Lauri Aarnio)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:18:06 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:18:42 GMT."
             <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> 
Message-ID: <200201310918.LAA20241@mole.nixu.fi>

In message <20020130091842.A12653 at apple.ukc.ac.uk>, "P.A.Osborne" writes:
>Well that is what I intended,  certainly as a starting reference for
>floppy, console drivers etc - IDE can wait till later.  Initially I 
>would like to get v6 or 7 (probably 6 as the Lions commentary is
>available) booting a kernel.   

Have you considered using Tanenbaum's Minix as a reference ?
Earlier versions were made for 8086, version 2.0 (which seems
to be te latest?) has been ported to 286/386 (= 16 / 32-bit
protected mode code depending on a flag). And it has a C-compiler,
too. See http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/minix.html for more.
(I haven't been following Minix development since 1990 or 1991 -
around that time we ported the original minix to the 386 (minix 
2.0 is a different thing, not based on our port). Anyway,
the biggest part of that project was related to protected mode
memory management.
It wasn't as simple as it sounds, mostly because the original 
documents (Intel databooks) were misleading, contained lots of
errors and also otherwise hard to read (bits of information evenly
distributed around the book...). The books may or may not be better
now, but in any case, get a working reference implementation.

	Lauri



From P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk  Thu Jan 31 20:26:49 2002
From: P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk (P.A.Osborne)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 10:26:49 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201302047470.29712-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>; from bqt@update.uu.se on Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 08:50:31PM +0100
References: <02013019004900.00631@linux> <Pine.LNX.4.21.0201302047470.29712-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <20020131102649.B19170@apple.ukc.ac.uk>

On Wed, Jan 30, 2002 at 08:50:31PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On Wednesday 30 January 2002 10:18, P.A.Osborne wrote:
> > Having had a rummage and a chat with acolleague here at
> > UKC - it seems that V6 will be easier than V7,  partially because
> > of the Lions commentary - but mainly because 286 protected mode
> > gives a very similar handling on memory management as the PDP did.
> 
> What a silly argument. 
> V6 and V7 both run on the PDP-11, so the memory
> management hardware used by them both are the same.

Having looked through the source of v6 and v7  the comments are shall
we say minimalistic to people who are not as familiar with the PDP 
architecture as say Ritchie and Thompson - ie ME!   Hence the Lions
commentary makes life a darn site easier.

I am not disagreeing with the second point you have made.   However the
point is that V7 is a development on from V6 and the memory management 
is more complex and thus requires more work.

> And while I'm not familiar with the 286 protected mode, I have heard
> people before claim that it is horrendous compared to the MMU on the
> PDP-11.

I have heard similar,  however the point remains that attempting to
port the simpler model is going to be less work that porting the more
complex model.

At the end of the day porting V6 has been something that I have considered
for almost a couple of years now,  but time has been lacking.  Now that
I have time I am going to be able to do some work.   If someone hadn't 
raised the question of porting on this mailing list then I would 
probably not mentioned what I am considering at all.

Why do I want to do this? :
1.  To improve my understanding of how OSs work
2.  To improve my very shaky intel assembler skills
3.  Because I can

If out of it I (or anyone else for that matter) produces 10 lines of
code that prove benefit to the community (on this list) then its been
worth any effort even if we dont see v6(or 7) running on a PC.

Regards

Paul


From P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk  Thu Jan 31 21:00:42 2002
From: P.A.Osborne at ukc.ac.uk (P.A.Osborne)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2002 11:00:42 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Porting Unix v6 to i386
In-Reply-To: <200201310918.LAA20241@mole.nixu.fi>; from Lauri.Aarnio@nixu.com on Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:18:06AM +0200
References: <20020130091842.A12653@apple.ukc.ac.uk> <200201310918.LAA20241@mole.nixu.fi>
Message-ID: <20020131110042.F19170@apple.ukc.ac.uk>

On Thu, Jan 31, 2002 at 11:18:06AM +0200, Lauri Aarnio wrote:
> Have you considered using Tanenbaum's Minix as a reference ?

Funnily enough - no.  Which was a tad daft as I have a copy
of the original Tanenbaum book on a shelf about 2 feet above
the monitor....  :-)   sheepish grin


<snipped relevant Minix stuff>

> It wasn't as simple as it sounds, mostly because the original 
> documents (Intel databooks) were misleading, contained lots of
> errors and also otherwise hard to read (bits of information evenly
> distributed around the book...). The books may or may not be better
> now, but in any case, get a working reference implementation.


I was caught out on the Intel databooks a few years ago,  I dread
returning...

:-)

Paul



From dionj at caldera.com  Thu Jan 24 09:03:37 2002
From: dionj at caldera.com (Dion Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:03:37 -0800
Subject: Liberal license for ancient UNIX sources
Message-ID: <20020123150337.A12595@sco.com>

Dear Warren, and friends,

I'm happy to let you know that Caldera International has placed
the ancient UNIX releases (V1-7 and 32V) under a "BSD-style" license.
I've attached a PDF of the license letter hereto.  Feel free to 
propogate it as you see fit.

I apologize that this has taken so long.  We do not have a well
regulated archive of these ancient releases, so we must depend
upon you UNIX enthusiasts, historians, and original authors to
help the community of interested parties figure out exactly what
is available, where, and how.

Many thanks to Warren Toomey, of PUPS, and to Caldera's Bill
Broderick, director of licensing services here.  Both of these
gentlemen were instrumental in making this happen.  And thanks
to our CEO, Ransom Love, whose vision for Caldera International
prescribes cooperation and mutual respect for the open source
communities.

Of course, there are thousands of other people who should be
acknowledged.  I regret I do not have time or wisdom to make
a list of them all, but maybe someone does, or has.

Anyway, here it is.  Feel free to write to us if you want to
understand more about how/why Caldera International has released
this code, or you have any other comments that we should hear.

Sincerely,

Dion L. Johnson II - dionj at caldera.com
Product Manager and one of many open source enthusiasts in Caldera Intl.

Paul Hatch - phatch at caldera.com
Public Relations Manager at Caldera International


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From dionj at caldera.com  Thu Jan 24 09:03:37 2002
From: dionj at caldera.com (Dion Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:03:37 -0800
Subject: Liberal license for ancient UNIX sources
Message-ID: <20020123150337.A12595@sco.com>

Dear Warren, and friends,

I'm happy to let you know that Caldera International has placed
the ancient UNIX releases (V1-7 and 32V) under a "BSD-style" license.
I've attached a PDF of the license letter hereto.  Feel free to 
propogate it as you see fit.

I apologize that this has taken so long.  We do not have a well
regulated archive of these ancient releases, so we must depend
upon you UNIX enthusiasts, historians, and original authors to
help the community of interested parties figure out exactly what
is available, where, and how.

Many thanks to Warren Toomey, of PUPS, and to Caldera's Bill
Broderick, director of licensing services here.  Both of these
gentlemen were instrumental in making this happen.  And thanks
to our CEO, Ransom Love, whose vision for Caldera International
prescribes cooperation and mutual respect for the open source
communities.

Of course, there are thousands of other people who should be
acknowledged.  I regret I do not have time or wisdom to make
a list of them all, but maybe someone does, or has.

Anyway, here it is.  Feel free to write to us if you want to
understand more about how/why Caldera International has released
this code, or you have any other comments that we should hear.

Sincerely,

Dion L. Johnson II - dionj at caldera.com
Product Manager and one of many open source enthusiasts in Caldera Intl.

Paul Hatch - phatch at caldera.com
Public Relations Manager at Caldera International


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