From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Thu Jun  1 05:18:41 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:18:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine?
Message-ID: <200005311918.PAA23647@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu>

Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in
surplus here.  A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack,
with some custom name that meant nothing to me.  But, it had two rack
cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards,
4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases.
The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb).
Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to
leave.  What might such a critter actually be?  It had half a dozen
RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top
of the case.  It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going
to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks.
It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as
DEC boards inside.

Bob





From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Thu Jun  1 05:50:10 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:50:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine?
In-Reply-To: <200005311918.PAA23647@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu" at May 31, 2000 03:18:41 PM
Message-ID: <200005311950.PAA25124@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in
> surplus here.  A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack,
> with some custom name that meant nothing to me.  But, it had two rack
> cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards,
> 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases.
> The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb).
> Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to
> leave.  What might such a critter actually be?  It had half a dozen
> RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top
> of the case.  It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going
> to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks.
> It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as
> DEC boards inside.

Revisitation of the thing (my curiosity got the better of me and it was
only a couple blocks away), yields some more info.

A tag on the back says it is a scsi upgrade for a Digital Bright V.
The ID plate says it is a Model BF-111/64.

Examination of the cards indicated it was full of Perception Technologies
cards rather than DEC cards, with what looks like modem transformers on
them (10 cards and 80 ports?).  Is this a telephone system of some sort?

The drive cabinet had a panel on it with:

           RDY  1  WP
           RDY  0  WP
           HALT  RESTART
           DCOK    RUN

buttons on it.  That seems DECish.  The rest, I dunno.

Anyone have any ideas as to what it might be?

Thanks

Bob


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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Thu Jun  1 06:00:03 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:00:03 -0400
Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine?
Message-ID: <000531160003.202005cb@trailing-edge.com>

>The drive cabinet had a panel on it with:
>
>           RDY  1  WP
>           RDY  0  WP
>           HALT  RESTART
>           DCOK    RUN
>
>buttons on it.  That seems DECish.

It sounds like a BA23, the DEC standard 8-slot Q-bus chassis.

>Anyone have any ideas as to what it might be?

Q-bus CPU's can be anything from a PDP-11/03 up to a Microvax,
and even some third-party CPU's with odd things like 68000's
and Z80's on them.  You really gotta look in the CPU box and
find the CPU board to determine what it is.  The badge on the
front of the BA23 may bear no relation to what's installed in
it.

If it is an -11, it's very likely an 11/73, /83 or 11/93,
possibly a 11/23.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From andy.sporner at networkengines.com  Thu Jun  1 06:01:37 2000
From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andy Sporner)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:01:37 -0400
Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine?
Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C896@neimail.networkengines.com>

Could be any number of things...  The cable is probably
a bus connector and the cabinet in the other rack is
an expansion cabinet.  What you are looking at could
be a PDP 11/05 (I used to have one), although since you
didn't mention there being a row of switches across the
front, probably not.  

There are so many different possibilities.  If you could
describe the front of the boxes that are in the rack it
would be very helpful.  The PDP 11 possibilities and fit
in a 5 1/4" (half box) would be a pdp 11/05 (with a 
row of white keys (16 of them), a pdp 11/23 (which is 
mostly white with 3 white keys in a small inset area)
and others that might have a rotary switch or perhaps
a telephone-like keypad).  Otherwise I would wonder if
it is even a DEC machine...  If it has an orange lighted
rocker switch it might be any number of later Q-BUS 
machines....  (and probably so if this has a SCSI device).



Andy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu [mailto:rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 3:19 PM
> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Cc: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
> Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine?
> 
> 
> Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come 
> available in
> surplus here.  A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 
> height rack,
> with some custom name that meant nothing to me.  But, it had two rack
> cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards,
> 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases.
> The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb).
> Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to
> leave.  What might such a critter actually be?  It had half a dozen
> RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top
> of the case.  It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going
> to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks.
> It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as
> DEC boards inside.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jun  1 10:25:34 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:25:34 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS
Message-ID: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the
future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive.

For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally
I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the
Archive as that was my interest.

Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such
as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns
etc.

A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any
Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated
as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g
2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project).

I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society
(http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/), which would allow a number of groups
like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their
efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea.

Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11
stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a
mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it
goes off to /dev/null.

So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of
the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives,
mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned.

Questions:
	- should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives?

	- if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.)

	- if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you
	  consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could
	  sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella?

	- do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive,
	  mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could
	  point to?

	- do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'',
	  or would you rather have more specific lists?

One final comment before you answer. There's a very diverse bunch of
people on this mailing list, some with strong opinions. Please be prepared
to accept someone's comments as what they want, don't tell them that they
are wrong, but let us know what you'd like to see.

Many thanks,
	Warren

[ now stands back for the deluge! ]

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From wkb at chello.nl  Fri Jun  2 02:53:57 2000
From: wkb at chello.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:53:57 +0200
Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS
In-Reply-To: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 10:25:34AM +1000
References: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000601185357.E99044@freebie.wbnet>

On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 10:25:34AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:

> So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of
> the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives,
> mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned.
> 
> Questions:
> 	- should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives?

Multiple.

> 	- if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.)

I'd distinguish by CPU / machine / vendor. Eg. PDP, VAX, Sun68k, etc.
Maybe one should also distinguish by source code / binary-only. People like
David are mostly interested in the sources, which I think makes good sense.
But if you find yourself with an old box a binary kit sure beats no OS at
all.

> 	- do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'',
> 	  or would you rather have more specific lists?

Depends on the traffic. One could argue a generic 'announce' list and 
a set of platform dependent lists would be best. But maybe it is too early
to nail this down.

> One final comment before you answer. There's a very diverse bunch of
> people on this mailing list, some with strong opinions. Please be prepared
> to accept someone's comments as what they want, don't tell them that they
> are wrong, but let us know what you'd like to see.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 	Warren
> 
> [ now stands back for the deluge! ]

<splash> ;-)

-- 
Wilko Bulte 	FreeBSD, the power to serve  	http://www.freebsd.org


From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jun  3 11:58:50 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:58:50 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS
Message-ID: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Hi all,
	Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of
things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short
proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody
what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old
disagreements!

Thanks,
	Warren


	A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive
	==============================================================

Policy
------

The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group
specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform.

The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support
efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer
considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below.

Mechanism
---------

The pups at minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing
list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the
Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up.

As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up
for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more
people from each group will be the list maintainer.

If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these
groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project.

The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level
will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels
in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories
for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the
current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like
Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are.

If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive
will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space
for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things.
However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence.
In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts.


Volunteers & Mirrors
--------------------

Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not
wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative.
In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive.
For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps
this can be called the VAX Unix Archive.

I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that:

	+ specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry
	+ requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how
	  big each section is
	+ requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them


Copyright & License Issues
--------------------------

At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or
copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms
to ensure access by license holders will be preserved.

Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that
is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not
be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In
that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be
released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way
until that time.

A Personal Note
---------------

I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff
(including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set
up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone
who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing
lists associated with them.

It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings,
just in case I get hit by a bus or something.

Conclusion
----------

I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that
I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal
for future direction of PUPS and TUHS.

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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sat Jun  3 17:57:30 2000
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:57:30 +0100
Subject: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS
In-Reply-To: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
References: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Q8wFPIAqpLO5Ew82@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <200006030158.LAA08504 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au> writes
>Hi all,
>       Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of
>things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short
>proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody
>what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old
>disagreements!
>
>Thanks,
>       Warren
>
Sounds basically ok to me

Robin
>
>       A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive
>       ==============================================================
>
>Policy
>------
>
>The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group
>specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform.
>
>The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support
>efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer
>considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below.
>
>Mechanism
>---------
>
>The pups at minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing
>list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the
>Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up.
>
>As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up
>for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more
>people from each group will be the list maintainer.
>
>If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these
>groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project.
>
>The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level
>will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels
>in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories
>for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the
>current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like
>Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are.
>
>If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive
>will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space
>for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things.
>However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence.
>In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts.
>
>
>Volunteers & Mirrors
>--------------------
>
>Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not
>wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative.
>In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive.
>For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps
>this can be called the VAX Unix Archive.
>
>I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that:
>
>       + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry
>       + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how
>         big each section is
>       + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them
>
>
>Copyright & License Issues
>--------------------------
>
>At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or
>copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms
>to ensure access by license holders will be preserved.
>
>Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that
>is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not
>be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In
>that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be
>released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way
>until that time.
>
>A Personal Note
>---------------
>
>I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff
>(including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set
>up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone
>who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing
>lists associated with them.
>
>It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings,
>just in case I get hit by a bus or something.
>
>Conclusion
>----------
>
>I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that
>I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal
>for future direction of PUPS and TUHS.

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue Jun  6 08:46:46 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:46:46 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
Message-ID: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Hi.

Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has
13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J
clone. I created a boot tape using a netbooted NetBSD 1.4.2 on this
machine. I dd-ed "stand", "miniroot" and "rootdump" onto a tape with
the blocksizes listed in the file "Rick_Copeland_Note". I also used
"maketape" from the 2.11BSD distribution. 
>>> b mua0

  2..1..0..


?06 HLT INST
    PC = 00074C1E
>>>
Every time the same. :-(

Do I make a mistake? Is my hardware not supported? Is there a other way
to get 4.3BSD-Reno instaled? (Puting a disklabel, ffs and data with
NetBSD onto the disk, but how to boot?) ???
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun  6 10:14:51 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 00 19:14:51 CDT
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
Message-ID: <0006060014.AA12823@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:

> Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has
> 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J
> clone.

4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, and won't fit on an RD53. The true 4.3BSD,
however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. Go to

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

to learn about the project and subscribe to its mailing list, then ask any
further questions there.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From emu at ecubics.com  Tue Jun  6 11:12:19 2000
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:12:19 -0600
Subject: profesional 350 & 380 
References: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350>

Hi all,

Any chance to get a unix running on them ?

cheers & thanks,
emanuel



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From djenner at halcyon.com  Tue Jun  6 13:50:14 2000
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:50:14 -0700
Subject: profesional 350 & 380
References: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350>
Message-ID: <393C74F6.A19267C0@halcyon.com>

There are at least two *NIXes that run on the Pro.

There are apparently patches for 2.9BSD available
that allow that version to run on the Pro.  I don't
have any experience with that.

There are two versions of Venix that run on the Pro.
  1) Venix/Pro came directly from Venturecom.
     It exists in Version 1 and Version 2.
  2) Pro/Venix came from DEC, but was a slight
     rework of Venix originally from Venturecom.
     I.e., DEC worked over Venix/Pro and issued a
     version itself called Pro/Venix.

Venix/Pro versions 1 and 2 are available from the
archives at ftp.update.uu.se.  This means, ostensibly,
that Venix/Pro is in the "public domain".  Pro/Venix
could also be in the public domain, subject to the
Ancient Unix License, since it originates from Version
7 and System III from AT&T.  Bob Supnick, who was at
DEC, once stated he saw no reason why it couldn't be
a part of the PUPS archive under the AU License.

I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix.  A couple of
the floppies are bad.  I would like to find a copy
of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more
flexible than Venix/Pro.  If anyone out there has
any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about
it.

Thanks,
Dave


emanuel stiebler wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Any chance to get a unix running on them ?
> 
> cheers & thanks,
> emanuel

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Tue Jun  6 16:01:20 2000
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:01:20 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: profesional 350 & 380 
In-Reply-To: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000606080102.2608A-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Any chance to get a unix running on them ?

There is Venix. I even think it's free now...

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue Jun  6 18:36:49 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:36:49 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <0006060014.AA12823@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <200006060836.KAA24484@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On  6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:

> 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, 
This is what I was waiting for. ;-)

> and won't fit on an RD53. 
I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany...
And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very
hany. ;-)

> The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. 
Hmm. 

[jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z 
stand.Z: data
[jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand
uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format

The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive
mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. 

> Go to
> 
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted
to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The
version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape.
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Jun  7 00:11:23 2000
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:11:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: profesional 350 & 380
In-Reply-To: <393C74F6.A19267C0@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.1000606101021.17613A-100000@world.std.com>

> I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix.  A couple of
> the floppies are bad.  I would like to find a copy
> of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more
> flexible than Venix/Pro.  If anyone out there has
> any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about
> it.
> 

I thought this one was up on uu.se site.  I got my copy from there years
ago.

Allison



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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Wed Jun  7 00:47:53 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 09:47:53 CDT
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
Message-ID: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:

> [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z=20
> stand.Z: data
> [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/t=
> mp/stand
> uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format

See

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html

> An other reason was: I wanted
> to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno.

4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all
traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been
built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is
CSRG in every other way.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Jun  7 02:16:53 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:16:53 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <200006061616.SAA25525@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On  6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:

> See
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html
Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? 
Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web
page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ???
The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a 
separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself 
uncompressed)." But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory
does not contain it.

> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
> the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. 
[...]
Is there some documentation available about this? 
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Wed Jun  7 03:19:48 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 12:19:48 CDT
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
Message-ID: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:

> Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? 

OK, I'll add one.

> Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web
> page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ???

Yes.

> The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a 
> separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself 
> uncompressed)."

Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
components/compress.tar is the right tarball...

> But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory
> does not contain it.

It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory
for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can
be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what
goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less.

> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
> > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. 
> [...]
> Is there some documentation available about this? 

I have something along these lines on the front page of the Quasijarus project.
But sure, I should elaborate. I will when I respond to Warren's PUPS/TUHS reorg
thing, which I'm still procrastinating on. :-)

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From pzh at bia-bg.com  Wed Jun  7 03:36:05 2000
From: pzh at bia-bg.com (Peter Zhivkov)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:36:05 +0300 (EET DST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000606203205.16815A-100000@mmail.bia-bg.com>



On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote:

> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
> the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all
> traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been
> built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is
> CSRG in every other way.
>

people, please administer proper dosage...and do not let patients out
of the boundaries of the asylum...
 
> --
> Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
> Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
> 			International Engineering and Science Task Force
> 			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
> 			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
> 
> Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
> E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
> 
> 

P.S. please take me off the quasijarus list


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From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Wed Jun  7 05:06:40 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <200005261407.AAA44464@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the
old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple
enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of
UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my
precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is
409,600 bytes):

	$ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
	800+0 records in
	800+0 records out
	$ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
	800+0 records in
	800+0 records out
	$ diff testrx50.img test
	Binary files testrx50.img and test differ

WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around,
I recall the following Additional Facts:
  - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks -
available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in
re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest
that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE])
usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors.
  - Disks formatted with the aforementioned Custom Hardware (a Shaffstall
6000 media conversion system, for the curious) for a) DEC Rainbow, b)
RT-11, and c) DECmate II, seem to work flawlessly, at the physical level,
but exhibit the below-mentioned quirks, logically.

I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_
high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly
under RSX-11.

Also:
  - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
itself as read-only, even for root.
  - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific
circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical
interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an
interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't
sat down and done it, not that I don't know how).

Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
little slice 'o heaven?

And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field
service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to
understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on
a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation?

Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
for the archive?

JasoMill



From wkb at chello.nl  Wed Jun  7 05:37:24 2000
From: wkb at chello.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:37:24 +0200
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>; from jasomill@shaffstall.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500
References: <200005261407.AAA44464@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <20000606213724.A1789@freebie.wbnet>

On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote:

> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
> for the archive?

I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. 

-- 
Wilko Bulte  	FreeBSD, the power to serve  	http://www.freebsd.org
						http://www.nlfug.nl

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Wed Jun  7 05:38:29 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com>

>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD?

Yeah, sure.

> I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
<dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the
>old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple
>enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of
>UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my
>precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is
>409,600 bytes):
>
>	$ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
>	800+0 records in
>	800+0 records out
>	$ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
>	800+0 records in
>	800+0 records out
>	$ diff testrx50.img test
>	Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?

No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at.
Is this on FreeBSD?

>Also:
>  - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
>no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
>from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
>due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
>itself as read-only, even for root.

This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label.  The raw
character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate
entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV?

Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it
possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise
live.

>  - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific
>circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical
>interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an
>interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't
>sat down and done it, not that I don't know how).

Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50.  See, for
example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/
- assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and
example code.

>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3.

That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that.  If you look at any DEC
Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there.
For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources:

;
; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.

("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)

and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code
(really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!):

; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave
;
        ASL     R2              ;Make word count unsigned byte count
        MOV     (PC)+,R4        ;Loop count for 8 bit division
         .BYTE  -7.,-10.        ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later
50$:    CMP     #1280.,R5       ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)?
        BHI     60$             ;Branch if not, C-bit clear
        ADD     #-1280.,R5      ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit
                                ;(10.*200)
60$:    ROL     R5              ;Shift dividend and quotient
        INCB    R4              ;Decrement loop count
        BLE     50$             ;Branch until divide done
        MOVB    R5,R1           ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend
        ADD     R4,R5           ;Make sector < 0
        MOV     R1,R4           ;Copy track number
        ASL     R1              ;Multiply by 2 (skew)
70$:    SUB     #10.,R1         ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10
        BGT     70$             ; to find offset for this track, -10:0
        MOV     R1,TRKOFF       ;Save it
        BR      100$            ;Go save parameters and start

>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field
>service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to
>understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on
>a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation?

The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found
on PC-clones.

Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work.  Not only does it need
to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper
configurability.  The exact jumper settings vary depending on which
exact FD55 model and revision you're using.  As of a few months
ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets
you could get from TEAC's faxback service.

The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been
Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
from

  ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt

Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Wed Jun  7 05:59:51 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <000606155951.20200e60@trailing-edge.com>

>> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
>> for the archive?

>I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. 

No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those.  Mentec owns the
rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products.  But they
don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they
don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc...

Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list,
Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E.  Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link
on Mentec's page at

  http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp

The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next
week or so.

Tim.

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From rivie at teraglobal.com  Wed Jun  7 06:12:14 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
References:  <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <v0421010eb563058aacb7@[10.10.50.26]>

>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
>dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks);

Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies 
from system
to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software 
interleave
(otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II),
but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I 
have a memo here
somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML
translation of it... Ah yes, here it is:

DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only 
RQDX controller
is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I:

- 10 sectors per track
- 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew
- Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical
   track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79]
- Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10:

        |c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
     n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
     n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
     n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
     n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
     n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the
whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't.

Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks
on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack
of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew
on the RQDX3.

I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware
for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver
should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and
the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50
or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they
don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the
SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave.

>	$ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
>	800+0 records in
>	800+0 records out
>	$ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
>	800+0 records in
>	800+0 records out
>	$ diff testrx50.img test
>	Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?

No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK.

> In my late-night screwings-around,
>I recall the following Additional Facts:
>  - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks -
>available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in
>re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest
>that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE])
>usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors.

This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties
involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that
work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because
the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of
the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long
time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of
a sector, but don't hold me to that.

>I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_
>high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly
>under RSX-11.

That's good. You should not be using high-density disks.

>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
>little slice 'o heaven?

What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write
and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.

>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33?

The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of
the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an
AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal
with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an
RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will
not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s).

Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra
little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive
to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want
documentation for that little slice o' heaven?

--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Wed Jun  7 06:20:52 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:20:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever
In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 06, 2000 12:19:48 PM
Message-ID: <200006062020.QAA04660@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
> components/compress.tar is the right tarball...

I had the same problems, so pleeze, put a biggie readme at all appropriate
tree levels that has a 2 liner about the must use the ``new'' compress,
and where exactly to find it.

It was not quite intuitively obvious.....(:+}}...to my RT toy....until
I unrolled it there.

When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........

They yearn for the simplicity of a plain 4.3BSD.....that runs fine on
my old dinosaur RT toy.....(:+}}......  Anyone else running RT toyz?

Thanks

Bob


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From rivie at teraglobal.com  Wed Jun  7 06:21:22 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:21:22 -0600
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com>
References: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <v0421010fb5630d5a828e@[10.10.50.26]>

Tim Shoppa said:
>;
>; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
>; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.

Well, that disagrees with this memo right here which specifies a 3:1
interleave. It's hard to argue with code, though, and since I don't have
my 8051 code for the SCSI floppy controller handy, I'll have to believe
Tim on this one.

--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Wed Jun  7 06:30:26 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:30:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RT confusedness....
In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 06, 2000 03:38:29 PM
Message-ID: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
> ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
> 
> ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)

Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}...
It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure
a few of us have played with over the years.  It's a prime candidate for
the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides
with me.  Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter?

......


> Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
> from
> 
>   ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
> 
> Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
> to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?

Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility
dictate.  Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good.
I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively
we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc.,
to be worked out in some way.  At least, link to the urls, as long as the
urls don't break.

Bob

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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Jun  7 07:56:56 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:56:56 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <200006062156.XAA26340@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On  6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:

>> Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? 
> OK, I'll add one.
A litle note like:
Look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html to see how
to decompress the files. 
in the FORMAT file can save much time if you are a Quasijarus beginner. 
Or a Link "HOWTO install Quasijarus" with a note about the compress
issue, creating tapes, ... on the Quasijarus main page will do the job
also. 

> Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
> components/compress.tar is the right tarball...
Again. "Look at Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar" can save
time...

> It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory
> for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can
> be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what
> goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less.
Ahh. I did not know this. 

ARGL! Now my TK50 died! Sh..., fu..., [other censored stuff] 
What have we learned now? Kids, do not dismount the optical positioner
at the back of a TK50 drive for cleaning! GRMBL.
OK. Tomorrow is a new day, new luck. I will mount the TK50Z in the MVII
and I will give Quasijarus a try. If Quasijarus also fails, the BA23 box
will stay inactive until I get a working, 2.11BSD capable PDP11 CPU. 
-- 



a guts Nächtle,
	         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jun  7 07:57:16 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:57:16 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu" at "Jun 6, 2000  4:30:26 pm"
Message-ID: <200006062157.HAA32202@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu:
> > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
> > from
> > 
> >   ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
> > 
> > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
> > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?

I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were Unix-related.
Notwithstanding that comment, if there's enough disk space, why not.
However, it would have to be in an area which was marked as generic information.

Ciao,
	Warren

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jun  7 08:23:20 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:23:20 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <020401bfd004$d7ee0490$5d01a8c0@p2350> from emanuel stiebler at "Jun 6, 2000  4:16:14 pm"
Message-ID: <200006062223.IAA32518@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by emanuel stiebler:
> > I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were
> Unix-related.
> Why not an pointer to the ftp archive ?
> If something changes there, we're updated. So we have to keep track of the
> changes :-(

Pointers would go on the web pages (that's easy). Real files in the Archive :-)

As part of the division of things into system/platform-specific and
Unix-generic areas, I'm updating the Unix Heritage Society web pages.
A preview is at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/tuhs/

We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group?
David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space,
archive area, mail list as required.

The web page above is the place to put pointers to hardware information
and other useful stuff, unless that has already been done by an affiliated
group. So start sending me URLs :-)

The existing pups at minnie mail list will become the tuhs at minnie list. A
new pups at minnie list will be created for PDP-11 specific stuff. Next week
sometime.

In a month say, I'll reorganise the structure of the PUPS Archive, and
rename it as the Unix Archive. If you have mirrors, don't worry I'll
e-mail out a shell script with lots of mkdir and mv commands in it :-)

Cheers,
	Warren

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jun  7 08:49:14 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:49:14 +1000 (EST)
Subject: VAX group in TUHS?
In-Reply-To: <393D9CE9.533EFA0E@openecs.org> from chris at "Jun 7, 2000  2:52:57 am"
Message-ID: <200006062249.IAA32738@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by chris:
> I really like to help starting a VAX Unix archive. My VAX11/750 is bored by
> NetBSD and want's to try out some other "real" UNIX.
> So this might be a great chance.
> 
> Regards - Chris

At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the
archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Michael, do you want
to continue to do this? Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for
someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work?

Cheers,
	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jun  7 08:45:02 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <200006062245.PAA01871@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

	Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
	get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;))

> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
> Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
> patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)

	Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally
	got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb
	5.25" Teac "PC" drive).

> 	$ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 	800+0 records in
> 	800+0 records out
> 	$ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 	800+0 records in
> 	800+0 records out
> 	$ diff testrx50.img test
> 	Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
> 
> WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around,

	No, in fact I'd have expected an error on the first 'dd'.

	Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are.   If they are only
	in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I
	know what the problem might be.

	I'd also, not that it would make any difference (I hope), use the
	raw device for speed purposes (RX50 is slow enough as it is ;)):

		dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/rra12a

>   - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
> no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
> from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
> due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
> itself as read-only, even for root.

	Indeed it is related to disklabel support.  In the face of a missing
	or corrupt disklabel the kernel is supposed (and I think it is in this
	case) synthesize a label that spans the entire disk with the 'a'
	partition. 

	I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the
	synthetic label is being used.  It's probably a bug having to deal
	with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label
	is being used.  Sigh.   I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try
	to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks.

	The first sector should have been written (that's the boot block), the
	label sector is the 2nd sector and that's 'write protected' unless
	either an ioctl() is done or the 'disklabel' program is used to
	un-writeprotect it.

	Try doing a 

		disklabel -W /dev/rra12a

	to enable writing the label sector.  If that works then the problem
	lies in not setting that bit when a corrupt/missing label is seen.

	Normally this isn't necessary since filesystems are created on disks
	and they're not treated as raw output bitcontainers.  Floppies are
	special in that 'raw' device usage is more common.

> Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
> all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
> above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this

	Quite so.  To the driver the RX50 is just another MSCP disk.  

	Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
	messages with the 'sysctl' command:

		sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X

		where X is a bitmask (at present only the first 4 bits are in
		use).   Setting X to 15 will enable every printf the driver
		has.  

 * Bit 0 = print/log all non successful response packets
 * Bit 1 = print/log datagram arrival
 * Bit 2 = print status of all response packets _except_ for datagrams
 * Bit 3 = enable debug/log statements not covered by one of the above

	See the pdpuba/ra.c sources for more details, and what printf/log
	statements are covered by which bit.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Wed Jun  7 09:39:23 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 18:39:23 CDT
Subject: VAX group in TUHS?
Message-ID: <0006062339.AA14868@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Warren Toomey <wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:

> At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the
> archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project.

Yes.

> Michael, do you want to continue to do this?

Yes.

> Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for
> someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work?

No, I do not and will not separate these.

Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas
intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jun  7 16:09:07 2000
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:07 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000607080633.9260B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote:

[...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...]

> 	$ diff testrx50.img test
> 	Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
> 
> WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?

Well... No... But...

You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it
don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first
1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K
and see if that is the same.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Thu Jun  8 01:36:43 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:43 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever
In-Reply-To: <200006062020.QAA04660@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200006071536.RAA01882@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On  6 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:

> When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
> Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........
NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it
is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a
good OS, free, modern, ...
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Thu Jun  8 02:50:10 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:50:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000607080633.9260B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071140500.6407-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

After looking at the data, I'm not suprised, either -- I've proven, if
nothing else, that the 'diff' command is not broken :) This command
seek-whence was for illusutrative purposes; by far the strangest thing to
me is the Interleave Problem. First R/W UNIX block device I've ever seen
that's not bijective (to slightly abuse the term).

-jtm

On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
> 
> Well... No... But...
> 
> You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it
> don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result.


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From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Thu Jun  8 03:15:53 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:15:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <200006062245.PAA01871@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071150180.6407-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

> 	Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
> 	get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;))
It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of
the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with.
Every programmer who writes 150MB bloatware should study it.

> 	Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally
> 	got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb
> 	5.25" Teac "PC" drive).
I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken
(won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got
a few Toshibas and Matsushitas I'm gonna fool around with, though. Though
I find that about 90% of what I learn about everything computer related
involves one thing or another that doesn't work; so in a way I can thank
DEC for screwball H/W. About 10 YA, I used a DECmate II with an RX50 on a
daily basis, and had 0 problems; of course, I had preformatted DEC disks
and no interchange (at the time I had two computers -- an Atari 130XE and
DECmate II)

> 	Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are.   If they are only
> 	in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I
> 	know what the problem might be.

Some is, some ain't. Aside from the also-mentioned "interleave problem,"
whereby the RX50 seems to interleave output data (isn't the hardware
supposed to take care of this, if it is indeed hardware interleave, 
though I'm 95% sure I formatted 1:1...yes, unless the RQDX3 is unlike
_every_ floppy controller I've seen in the past ten years)

> 	I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the
> 	synthetic label is being used.  It's probably a bug having to deal
> 	with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label
> 	is being used.  Sigh.   I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try
> 	to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks.

I, also, although I'm not going on vacation in the near future, and I
don't have an 11/73 -- but, I suppose if I can find time to play with my
PDP @ all (which I suppose I have -- it's now, courtesy of Network Address
Translation and SLIP, not only connected to my Apartment Network, but also
to the Internet. Now to find a Web browser that fits in 64K I space or
segments well. Is CERN line-mode still being maintaned?), I'll work on
this. I hope to be able to use the RX50 for sneakernet purposes, despite
my network connection, as 19.2K is pretty damned slow, and while I'm
excited at the prospect of diviplexing SLIP over all 40 ports on all five
of my muxes, I'm somewhat less excited at the prospect of designing and
coding it; besides, I only have three serial ports on my PC, and one's for
the modem). Though Priority One is getting my LA75 working -- once again
It Worked In RSX (much better than I did, I might add :).

> 	Try doing a 
> 
> 		disklabel -W /dev/rra12a
>
> 	Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
> 	messages with the 'sysctl' command:
> 
> 		sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
> 

I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool.

-jtm


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From griffioena at psi.com  Thu Jun  8 04:50:39 2000
From: griffioena at psi.com (Arno Griffioen)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:50:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: RT confusedness....
In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu"
 at "Jun 6, 2000 04:30:26 pm"
Message-ID: <200006071850.UAA26525@superluminal.usn.nl>

> Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}...
> It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure
> a few of us have played with over the years.  It's a prime candidate for
> the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides
> with me.  Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter?

Yup.. But only with 4.3BSD on it.

The assembly mnemonics stil crack me up. Seems like IBM somehow
misunderstood 'RISC' for Reduced Mnemonics.

The comments inserted in assembly code by the C compiler gave some
indication of the brokenness of the CPU.. Lots of NOP's added in several
places with remarks like "Add NOPs, otherwise register contents will be wrong".

But hey...

Before that I was used to working with 40 students on a uVAX 3600
(which I now own and run :-), so to me these RT's were pretty darn
quick!

Still would like to get my grubby paws on one though. Somehow this 
collection of old UNIX machines is becoming an obsession :-)

								Bye, Arno.

-- 
PSINetworks Europe           Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34               Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands |   *  Musical Interlude  *      | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------

 We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
 With a Cast-Iron fist!                  (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Thu Jun  8 06:07:58 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:07:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RQDX3 software interleave
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

> Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
> with it, ...
I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even
considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to
do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in
systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to
do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for
the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon,
though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like
much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd
like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest
_that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and
leave it at that.

> What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to
write
> and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.
Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it
doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural
and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much
fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my
employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system.
And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an
experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as
long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8"
diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks
the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you
think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy
driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the
data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in
assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA
device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
single density and data in DD?

Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing
working soon.

-jtm


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From rivie at teraglobal.com  Thu Jun  8 06:54:01 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600
Subject: RQDX3 software interleave
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
References:  <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <v04210100b564661bc3fe@[10.10.50.26]>

> Speaking of PITA
>device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
>single density and data in DD?

Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that
would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to
do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine
or format floppies you don't have to worry about it.

--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Thu Jun  8 07:36:19 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <200006071536.RAA01882@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Jun 07, 2000 05:36:43 PM
Message-ID: <200006072136.RAA29103@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> > When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
> > Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........

> NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it
> is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a
> good OS, free, modern, ...

True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters (minor VAXen, MIPSen, Sun68ken,
etc.) in my basement.  But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of
a 4.3BSD.  I once sat down and loaded up 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno, 4.4, 4.4Lite2
(mostly) on my RT's, and you could really tell the difference as the bloat
transcended out of the 4.3 arena.  On a 12.5 mhz box, you can feel the
difference (what about a MVII at its liesurely pace?).  So, I do think
it would be a reasonable effort to keep something like a tiny 4.3 system
afloat for the older and the newer toyz.  Whether or not it is practical,
or we have the time to do that... who knows....  mebbie, at least for some
historical play.

I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old
toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}...

Bob


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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Thu Jun  8 07:54:44 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:54:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <200006062223.IAA32518@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jun 07, 2000 08:23:20 AM
Message-ID: <200006072154.RAA00453@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group?
> David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space,
> archive area, mail list as required.

What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this?

IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an
IBM RT related group.  So far it seems about half a dozen folks were
interested in the RT things.  Let's see where it goes.....

Bob


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From apgarcia at hackaholic.org  Thu Jun  8 07:58:58 2000
From: apgarcia at hackaholic.org (A. P. Garcia)
Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000
Subject: unix precursors
Message-ID: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics,
but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
unix?

Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS.  I think that
Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as
rare as chicken teeth.  I think he also wrote an earlier journal
article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate.

Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its
current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System.  That is the one and
only thing I have ever heard about this system.  Anyone know where I
can learn more?


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From root at gits.dyndns.org  Thu Jun  8 08:14:46 2000
From: root at gits.dyndns.org (Cyrille Lefevre)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
 at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am"
Message-ID: <200006072214.AAA04762@gits.dyndns.org>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> On  6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> 
> > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, 
> This is what I was waiting for. ;-)
> 
> > and won't fit on an RD53. 
> I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany...
> And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very
> hany. ;-)
> 
> > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. 
> Hmm. 
> 
> [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z 
> stand.Z: data
> [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand
> uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format
> 
> The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive
> mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. 

you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the
pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar.

> > Go to
> > 
> > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
>
> Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted
> to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The
> version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape.

Cyrille.
--
home: mailto:clefevre at citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre at edf.fr

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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Thu Jun  8 08:21:04 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:21:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <200006072136.RAA29103@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200006072221.AAA02836@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On  7 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:

> True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters 
Ahh. I thought that you did not know about the new (puh, it is more
than 1/2 year old) developements in DMA SCSI on VAXstations...

> But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of a 4.3BSD. 
...as I do like the leanness of NetBSD on i386...
I dont like this bloated, i386 centric wants-to-be-*ix from Finland...
Hmmm. And my TK50 is broken so I can not get 4.3BSD on my MVII without
slaughtering my TK50Z... :-(

> I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old
> toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}...
Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
This is pure luxury. 

I think we are moving more and more away from the sbject of this list.
EOT
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Thu Jun  8 08:46:55 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 00 17:46:55 CDT
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
Message-ID: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:

> Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> This is pure luxury.=20

And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.

Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build
new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on
them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag!

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From enf at pobox.com  Thu Jun  8 08:50:45 2000
From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: unix precursors
In-Reply-To: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com>

> Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS.  I think that
> Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as
> rare as chicken teeth.  I think he also wrote an earlier journal
> article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate.

The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental
Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which
describes an early version of the system (where command arguments
were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces).  AFIPS
Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962.

The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_,
which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965,
by MIT Press.  Both editions are in enough libraries you should
be able to get them by interlibrary loan.  The first edition is
more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages.

The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line
updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition
was published.

You will see many similarities to Unix.  The arguments to tar,
for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command.

> Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its
> current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System.  That is the one and
> only thing I have ever heard about this system.  Anyone know where I
> can learn more?

You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User
Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at

  http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html

Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for

  http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html

but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at
the University of California, Berkeley.  I've read somewhere that
the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing
system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located
on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been
written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run
the software it describes.

eric

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From pdub at accesscom.com  Thu Jun  8 09:36:42 2000
From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:36:42 -0700
Subject: unix precursors
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <393EDC8A.237C8423@accesscom.com>

"A. P. Garcia" wrote:

> does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
> unix?

On CTSS:

F. J. Corbato et al.
"An Experimental Time-Sharing System"
Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344.

P. A. Crisman
The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed.
MIT Press, 1965.

On the Berkeley Timesharing System:

W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle
"A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction"
Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196.

B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle
"A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System"
Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774.

This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of:

C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell
Computer Structures: Readings and Examples
Mc-Graw Hill, 1971

and this *entire* book is online at
"http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/contents.html"
(the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your
browser).

Happy reading :)
Paul

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From pdub at accesscom.com  Thu Jun  8 12:27:45 2000
From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:27:45 -0700
Subject: unix precursors
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com>
Message-ID: <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com>

Eric Fischer wrote:
> 
> I've read somewhere that
> the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing
> system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located
> on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been
> written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run
> the software it describes.

The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives
another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system:

J.B. Dennis,
"A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research"
Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529.

BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed
for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
(BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system:

J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider
"A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer"
AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57.

Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame.

Paul

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Jun  8 14:45:32 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <200006080445.VAA25310@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
> > 	Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should

> It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of
> the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with.

	Ah, thanks!   I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or
	less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS
	until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur.

> I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken
> (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got

	Sigh. 

	Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the
	ensuing compare error.

	I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3.

	I freshly formatted a floppy.  That's one nice thing about the RX33,
	the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting 
	preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I
	remember.

	Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from
	the MSCP driver with

		sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9

	The  first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a 
	"ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message.  This is expected and
	correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came
	up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the
	'a' partition.

	Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc)
	was dd'd:

		dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a

	and almost immediately dd reported:

	write: Read-only file system
	2+0 records in
	2+0 records out

	That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but
	only successfully wrote one.   A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't
	decrement the output count on a write error.

	At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write
	enabled.  The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables
	the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering
	about that ;)

	After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
	compares identical to the input file.

	The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved
	2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can
	see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow).

	Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)?   Well, the system is currently booted
	from a different controller (Emulex UC08).  The boot controller is
	*always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is.   The secondary
	controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'.  The
	RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is
	ra9 (second drive on the second controller).

> > 	Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
> > 	messages with the 'sysctl' command:
> > 
> > 		sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
> 
> I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool.

	One more thing I stuffed into the system.  You'll also find 
	"sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices
	which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the
	latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago).


	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Jun  8 15:41:44 2000
From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff)
Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200
Subject: unix precursors
In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000"
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

"A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia at hackaholic.org> writes:
> I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics,
> but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
> unix?

How about ITS, did it influence Unix?

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Thu Jun  8 17:13:02 2000
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: RQDX3 software interleave
In-Reply-To: <v04210100b564661bc3fe@[10.10.50.26]>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000608090825.9260D-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote:

> > Speaking of PITA
> >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
> >single density and data in DD?
> 
> Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that
> would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to
> do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine
> or format floppies you don't have to worry about it.

And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of
the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
only.

Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in
single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and
this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Thu Jun  8 23:02:17 2000
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:02:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RQDX3 software interleave
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000608090825.9260D-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.1000608085853.3755A-100000@world.std.com>

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
> control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of
> the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
> only.

IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only
choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends).  However,
if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to
it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8"
media will work just fine.

RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability.

Allison



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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Fri Jun  9 01:36:34 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500
References: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com>

On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> 
> > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> > This is pure luxury.=20
> 
> And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
> KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
> GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.

My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used.  If Quasijarus
builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.

I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times
as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex"
processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the
swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work.

Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is;
I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when,
pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-)

Thor

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Fri Jun  9 01:54:33 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 00 10:54:33 CDT
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
Message-ID: <0006081554.AA17948@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> If Quasijarus
> builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...]

It does.

> [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...]

Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did
plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)


From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Fri Jun  9 06:40:15 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:40:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <200006080445.VAA25310@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006081444001.7342-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

> 	I freshly formatted a floppy.  That's one nice thing about the RX33,
> 	the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting 
> 	preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I
> 	remember.
Unless you have a Shaffstall 6000 -- a really cool piece of equipment once
made by my current employer, which is basically a box full of floppy
drives (3.5" HD, 5.25" 48tpi, 5.25" 96tpi, 8", and a few, but not mine,
have the Amstrad 3" 'flippy-disk') which are all _really_ well-aligned
(20% better than OEM spec) and an intelligent disk controller (which is
actually an 8085-based SBC) in a PC. About the only disks I _can't_ read
(or write or format) with this thing are the 2.88MB 3.5"
'extended-density' disks -- and I have a NeXTstation to read those.
Needless to say, I've got no problem formatting RX50s, in any interleave.

> 	write: Read-only file system
> 	2+0 records in
> 	2+0 records out
That's what I get.

> 	That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but
> 	only successfully wrote one.   A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't
> 	decrement the output count on a write error.
I noticed that, too.

> 	After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
> 	compares identical to the input file.
Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed
sleep.

> 	The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved
> 	2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can
> 	see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow).
I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've
written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC
software engineers by DEC hardware engineers?

> 	One more thing I stuffed into the system.  You'll also find 
> 	"sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices
> 	which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the
> 	latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago).
Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get
1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous
other goodies' I like.

As for the userland environment, it's "vanilla BSD" and that's exactly
what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an
UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC,
I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x
that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is
command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?

Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
FreeBSD community At Large.

-jtm


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From enf at pobox.com  Fri Jun  9 08:41:25 2000
From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: unix precursors
In-Reply-To: <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com>
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com> <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com>
Message-ID: <200006082241.RAA99748@shell-2.enteract.com>

Paul West writes,

> BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed
> for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
> (BBN).

Thanks for reminding me about the Jack Dennis article -- I had
forgotten about that one.

There were, I think, at least *four* time-sharing systems for the
PDP-1.  Besides the MIT and BBN ones, there was also the Hospital
Computer Project (I'm not sure whether that one was descended from
the early BBN system or was written from scratch) and the THOR
system at Stanford.  I can't give proper citations because I'm
currently 2000 miles from my book collection.

eric

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jun  9 08:58:44 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST)
Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006081444001.7342-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com> from "Jason T. Miller" at "Jun 8, 2000  3:40:15 pm"
Message-ID: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Jason T. Miller:
> The only thing I want is
> command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
> used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
> for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
> characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
> tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
> 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
> suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?

I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
 
> Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
> the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
> FreeBSD community At Large.

Yep, it will go into Tools/

	Warren

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From enf at pobox.com  Fri Jun  9 09:21:44 2000
From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: unix precursors
In-Reply-To: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <200006082321.SAA57997@shell-1.enteract.com>

Lars Brinkhoff writes,

> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?

If nothing else, the "more" program began as a copy of an ITS feature.
And people think of emacs as a Unix program, but it came to Unix from
ITS and brought with it things like the "info" documentation format.

eric

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From pdub at accesscom.com  Fri Jun  9 10:27:13 2000
From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:27:13 -0700
Subject: unix precursors
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <394039E1.ED6AB226@accesscom.com>

lars brinkhoff wrote:
 
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?

ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson
ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for
yourself, if you want.

The ITS Reference manual is available at
"ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps"

The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under
the GPL, and is at
"ftp://fpt.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its".

Happy historical hunting!
Paul

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From pdub at accesscom.com  Fri Jun  9 10:29:55 2000
From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:29:55 -0700
Subject: unix precursors (corrected URL)
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <39403A83.CDDC2592@accesscom.com>

Sorry for the repeat, I mistyped a URL in the first version.
Paul

---

lars brinkhoff wrote:
 
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?

ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson
ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for
yourself, if you want.

The ITS Reference manual is available at
"ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps"

The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under
the GPL, and is at
"ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its".

Happy historical hunting!
Paul

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From jasomill at indiana.edu  Fri Jun  9 18:55:11 2000
From: jasomill at indiana.edu (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 03:55:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000@lizard.indiana.edu>

Thanks to the good advice of members of the PUPS mailing list, I've
completed my first stab at an RX50 read/write toolset for FreeBSD. It
consists of two parts, a kernel patch to add the physical format, and a
filter set to deal with the logical sector interleave. It's ugly (not only
does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the
ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at
night when I think nobody's watching), but it seems to work pretty
well. The kernel patch, at least, is clean. Those with good karma and
flawlessly aligned drive heads can even try formatting their own RX50s.

So how do I submit it to the archive? "incoming" seems to be RO. It's
about 3K, tarred and gzipped.

Jason T. Miller
Self-styled Jack of England

"..." -Anonymous


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From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Fri Jun  9 23:14:11 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>



> I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
> memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
> could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the
Bourne shell. Hence, a project.

> > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
> > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
> > FreeBSD community At Large.
> 
> Yep, it will go into Tools/
Well, it's kind of ugly (okay, really ugly), but it's working pretty well.
The physical I/O portion is a (miniscule) patch against the 4.0-STABLE
FreeBSD kernel, but the interleave filters are pretty much standard C
(hideous C, but no BSD tricks) and should work on any raw I/O read of an
RX50 disk (you can do it in Linux without kernel mods; see setfdprm(8)).
Of course, the filters are only applicable to PDP-11-ish or VAX-ish RX50s;
Rainbow and DECmate disks are totally different; if someone wants to
implement those things, go ahead (Rainbow MS-DOS could be had with careful
mods to mtools, and there are a billion ways to skin a CP/M disk;  
haven't seen anything on UNIX to handle the DEC WPS file management
system, but I digress), but they have little to do with UNIX on the PDP
and less to do with me personally (my loving father having discarded my
DECmate II as junk about ten years ago).

-jtm


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 10 00:54:25 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 00 09:54:25 CDT
Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <0006091454.AA19804@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Jason T. Miller <jasomill at shaffstall.com> wrote:

> (my loving father having discarded my
> DECmate II as junk about ten years ago).

Then call your nearest DEC dealer, get a quote on the replacement price, and
sue your dad for the cost! Or report him to NKVD for vandalism of socialist
property.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From rivie at teraglobal.com  Sat Jun 10 01:16:50 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:50 -0600
Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000@lizard.indiana.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000@lizard.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <v0421010ab566b93d974a@[10.10.50.26]>

Jason Miller wrote:
>(not only
>does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the
>ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at
>night when I think nobody's watching)

Could be worse. I deeply offend the C style gods right in the open where
everyone can see. Since I'm pretty much a hardware type, I do _everything_
in state machines. While that works great for everything from hardware to
Prolog, it does mean my code tends to assume the only available
control structure is "if( expr ) goto state;". My attitude is that the
state diagram is the program, the code is just an implementation detail.

I used to work for a company that did TURBOchannel devices. I did the
device drivers for all the platforms (VAX/VMS, Alpha/VMS, Ultrix, and
OSF/1) and I shipped source code (it wasn't a conscious decision on the
part of management; since I got to build the distribution kits, the source
code was included and management simply didn't argue with me). One day I
got a letter from someone who had just bought our TURBOchannel parallel
printer port offering to go through the code and remove all those evil
gotos for the low, low price of only $100 a page. I declined the offer.

--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sat Jun 10 03:53:05 2000
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:05 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> > 
> > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> > > This is pure luxury.
> > 
> > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
> > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
> > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
> 
> My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
> substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
> is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used.  If Quasijarus
> builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
> than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.

Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than
NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the
kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to
build.

> I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times
> as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex"
> processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the
> swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work.

True.

> Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is;
> I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when,
> pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-)

:-)

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Jun 10 04:42:16 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
> > 	write: Read-only file system
> > 	2+0 records in
> > 	2+0 records out
> That's what I get.

	Oh - ok.  I must have misread the initial posting that indicated the
	complete copy went thru

		  dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
		  800+0 records in
		  800+0 records out

	If the writing of the floppy bailed out after "2+0" then it is no
	wonder the compare later fails - only the first sector was written.

> > 	After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
> > 	compares identical to the input file.
>
> Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed
> sleep.

	Sleep I can understand :)

	I really think (and sure hope!) that write enabling the label area
	will fix the problem.

	Having to do a "disklabel -W" on a disk before doing 'raw' I/O was
	a change that came in when labels were implemented.  Before labels
	the tables were compiled into the driver and 'raw' I/O could scribble
	all over the disk and the system would still know about the 
	partitioning.   When I ported over disklabels from 4.3-Reno it seemed
	like a "Good Thing" to be paranoid about preserving the label sector ;)

> I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've
> written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC
> software engineers by DEC hardware engineers?

	You know - I think it was a contest inside DEC to see who would go
	crazy first.   Reading the comments in the Ultrix drivers gave me
	the impression that even within DEC getting clear and correct
	documentation wasn't a given.   Then there are Chris Torek's comments
	in the 4.3-Reno and later MSCP drivers when he was in essence reverse
	engineering (or outright guessing) the MSCP commands, options, etc.

> Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get
> 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous
> other goodies' I like.

	Hmmm, that's got to be a DHQ or similar.  I had real problems with a
	DHV-11 and character loss when going over 9600.   Also, if you want
	to use "Kermit" you have to have RTS/CTS because that's a fairly
	heavy weight protocol and the system can't keep up if the rate is
	too high.   With RTS/CTS in place I was able to use 38400 and not
	loose a single character.

> what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an
> UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC,

	Slowaris?  "Just say no" - I have to deal with that at work and
	it was light night and day going from SunOS 4.1.x to Slowaris 2.x
	on the same hardware.  You *need* an UltraSparc just to restore the
	system responsiveness.

> I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x
> that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is

	Bit long in the tooth and missing a lot of the improvements (and
	fixes) in the IP/TCP stack that have been made over time.  Still, it
	was a much nicer system.

> command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
> used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
> for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
> characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
> tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
> 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
> suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?

	Might I suggest "pig"? <grin!>

	I like and use 'csh' for everything except the basic scripts that go
	into the system.  Csh has filename completion that works fairly well,
	only thing it doesn't have is arrowkey driven command editing.

	But observe the bloat factor that comes with "niceties" such as
	command history and command editing:

	First there's the honest to Bourne shell:

	text    data    bss     dec     hex
	16576   2356    416     19348   4b94	/bin/sh

	Then take a look at /bin/csh where there's history and a nicer
	(to me scripting capability - doing arithmetic in csh is so much 
	easier than in sh):

	55744   7104    3682    66530   103e2   total text: 69120
		overlays: 7360,6016

	Overlaid!  Efficiently (the one overlay is called seldom) but overlaid
	none the less.

	And lastly 'tcsh' (and yes, there is a port of an older version of
	tcsh for 2.11):

	48960   14844   11986   75790   1280e   total text: 140864
		overlays: 15424,16000,14144,14016,16256,16064

	Zounds!  No hope of really being efficient - modules were packed where
	they would fit.   More than doubling the size of 'csh' seems to be
	a VERY high price to pay for using the arrow keys if you ask me.

	Oh, and 'tcsh' has another problem due to it's appetite for memory.
	If it runs out of D space (more likely since it's so much larger)
	you get logged out.   Doing filename completion in 'tcsh' and being
	in a directory with too many files is a sure way to be staring at
	the login prompt shortly there after ;)

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Sat Jun 10 04:59:38 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>; from bqt@Update.UU.SE on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200
References: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com> <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <20000609145938.A6135@rek.tjls.com>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > 
> > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
> > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
> > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used.  If Quasijarus
> > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
> > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
> 
> Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than
> NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the
> kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to
> build.

Well, of course it does.  But it's also well worth keeping in mind that
while pcc is generally inferior to gcc in almost every other way, due
to its simplicity it *is* probably at least five times as fast.  A lot
of the difference in speed we're talking about here, particularly
with regard to the kernel, is due to the use of a much slower compiler;
as much of the kernel as you *have* to build for a VAX (as opposed to
what you *can* build if you *want to*) hasn't really bloated a lot
between 4.3 and NetBSD.  Runtime memory use is a somewhat different
matter, but we do still fit into Ragge's smaller VAXen pretty well.

Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with
the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is.  Though I think he
forgot to mention "inline" (ack!  pffffft!)... :-)

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls at rek.tjls.com
	"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 10 05:18:21 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 00 14:18:21 CDT
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
Message-ID: <0006091918.AA20337@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with
> the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is.  Though I think he
> forgot to mention "inline" (ack!  pffffft!)... :-)

We do use inline of course. I love it.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 10 05:37:25 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:42:16AM -0700
References: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20000609123725.S55675@dragon.nuxi.com>


This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
read this list for.



From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Sat Jun 10 06:17:48 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:17:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX02 diskettes
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006091515540.10091-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
> control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle
> of
> the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
> only.
Funny thing. I read 'em on my PS/2. I Am Not Making This Up. No
prefabricated single-chip floppy controller, methinks...

-jtm


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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jun 10 06:59:09 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:59:09 -0400
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
Message-ID: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>

> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> read this list for.

I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
that's the impression I got from the headers indicating it was a direct
reply to his message), but that doesn't make much sense because what he
wrote about was *exactly* on target for what this list is about: Running
Unix on PDP-11's.

OK, his jabs at Solaris probably weren't exactly on topic, but let's
look at what else he discussed:

* The disklabel implementation on 2.11BSD and its roots in other Unices.

* The history of MSCP drivers in 2.11BSD and other BSD-derived Unices.

* Efficient use of DHQ and DHV async multiplexers in Unix.

* The history of sh, csh, and tcsh, some introduction to how they use
  overlays on PDP-11 Unices, and the application of split I/D techniques
  to their operation.

All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
subject(s).  What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From gqueri at mail.dotcom.fr  Sat Jun 10 07:20:51 2000
From: gqueri at mail.dotcom.fr (Gael Queri)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200
Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>; from jasomill@shaffstall.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500
References: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <20000609232051.A28762@baoule.ath.cx>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote:
> > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
> > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
> > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
> Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the
> Bourne shell. Hence, a project.
And did you try to do something with pdksh? It's smaller than tcsh
and it has filename completion and support for reentrant history
(contrary to bash)

look at ftp.cs.mun.ca:/pub/pdksh/

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 10 08:23:55 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:55 -0700
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>; from SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400
References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> > read this list for.
> 
> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least

Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message.  Not it as not directed
directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
discussion.  

> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
> subject(s).  What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?

This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion.  I didn't vote so before,
but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two.  I agree that the
first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
gained.  But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
hardware.

I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jun 10 11:32:24 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:32:24 -0400
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
Message-ID: <000609213224.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>

>> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
>> > read this list for.
>> 
>> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least

>Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message.  Not it as not directed
>directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
>discussion.  

Actually, Steven did a *very* good job at turning a hardware-oriented
discussion to issues very much related to the history and maintainence
of Unix.

Besides, if anyone here wants to really know about RX50 interleaving,
they should go read one of CJL's posts from the Lasnerian early 90's
to alt.sys.pdp8/PDP8-LOVERS about RX50 interleave.  I swear, it was
a tome that was a good chunk of a megabyte long.

>> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
>> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
>> subject(s).  What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?

>This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion.  I didn't vote so before,
>but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two.  I agree that the
>first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
>gained.  But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
>discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
>hardware.

I view it the other way - the original posts offered little historical
insight, but the last one by Steven drew it very much back to Unix.

>I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
>guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

Indeed, there is a PDP-11 mailing list (info-pdp11 at village.org) already,
gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11.  To a large extent, though,
you can't blame members of the PUPS mailing list from occasionally straying
from "Unix in general" to the "PDP-11 in particular", because that's a good
part of what the list was originally created for (even though you might
not have joined until the The Unix Heritage Society solidified...)

If there was a more general "Unix Heritage Society" mailing list, would
platform-specific discussions be banned from that?  I probably would be
bored to tears by any such restrictions, as there would be no opportunities
to give concrete examples.

Tim.

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From grog at lemis.com  Sat Jun 10 11:54:48 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:24:48 +0930
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com>
References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com>
Message-ID: <20000610112448.K81728@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Friday,  9 June 2000 at 15:23:55 -0700, David O'Brien wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
>>> read this list for.
>>
>> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
>
> Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message.  Not it as not directed
> directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
> discussion.
>
>> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
>> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
>> subject(s).  What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?
>
> This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion.  I didn't vote so before,
> but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two.  I agree that the
> first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
> gained.  But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
> discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
> hardware.
>
> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

Well, FWIW this *is* the PDP-11 list.  But I thought it was
interesting way beyond the PDP-11 aspect.  Some of these things
(write-protected labels, for example) still shape FreeBSD, for
example.

I don't think we really have enough mail to justify two lists.  Most
of us probably ditch more than 50% of their mail every day anyway; if
this doesn't interest you, why not just delete it?

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From cpg at aladdin.de  Mon Jun 12 08:35:18 2000
From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:35:18 +0100
Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Message-ID: <412568FB.0081A620.00@saturn.aladdin.de>




Hi,

(Sorry if this is a FAQ)

I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images.
This is what happens:

----------------------
gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11

PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> set cpu 18b
sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
sim> boot rp

53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700

2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
    root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON

panic: buffers
no fs on dev 10/0

dumping to dev 5001 off 512
dump args:EINVAL

HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162)
sim>
----------------------

What am I doing wrong?

regards,
chris



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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Jun 12 09:36:45 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Message-ID: <200006112336.QAA12888@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg at aladdin.de>
> 
> I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images.
> This is what happens:
> 
> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
> sim> set cpu 18b

	Try "set cpu 22b" instead.  Using 18b tells the simulator you have
	a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough 
	for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs.

> panic: buffers

	Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any
	memory for the buffer cache.  I am almost certain that means
	there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb.

> What am I doing wrong?

	Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode.  If that still
	fails let us know.  Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;)

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From cpg at aladdin.de  Mon Jun 12 10:37:24 2000
From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:37:24 +0100
Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Message-ID: <412568FC.00096F95.00@saturn.aladdin.de>



On 06/11/2000 11:36:45 PM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
>>
>> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
>> sim> set cpu 18b
>
>    Try "set cpu 22b" instead.  Using 18b tells the simulator you have
>    a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough
>    for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs.
>
>> panic: buffers
>
>    Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any
>    memory for the buffer cache.  I am almost certain that means
>    there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb.
>
>> What am I doing wrong?
>
>    Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode.  If that still
>    fails let us know.  Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;)

Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work:
---------------------
gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11

PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> set cpu 22b
sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
sim> boot rp

53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700

2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
    root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON

panic: buffers
no fs on dev 10/0

dumping to dev 5001 off 512
dump args:EINVAL

HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162)
sim>
---------------------

What is "Plan B"?  :-)

regards,
chris



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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Jun 12 11:33:37 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:33:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Message-ID: <200006120133.SAA13674@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg at aladdin.de>
> Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work:

> sim> set cpu 22b
> sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
> sim> boot rp
> What is "Plan B"?  :-)

	Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly.   Simply saying
	"set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it
	does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have
	1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible).

	Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here.

	It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't
	try that by itself.

Script started on Sun Jun 11 18:30:40 2000
moe.1-> cat f
set cpu 22B
set cpu 2048K
att rp0 rp
boot rp
moe.2-> pdp11 f

PDP-11 simulator V2.3d

53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
: 
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700

2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
    root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON

attaching lo0

phys mem  = 2097152
avail mem = 1668352
user mem  = 307200

January  8 06:50:29 init: configure system

lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped:  No CSR.
cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped:  No CSR.
cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped:  No CSR.
cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped:  No CSR.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
# halt
syncing disks... done
halting

HALT instruction, PC: 000014 (MOV #1,12456)
sim> q
Goodbye
moe.3-> exit
exit

Script done on Sun Jun 11 18:30:59 2000

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From cpg at aladdin.de  Mon Jun 12 23:34:47 2000
From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:34:47 +0100
Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Message-ID: <412568FC.005055C9.00@saturn.aladdin.de>



On 06/12/2000 01:33:37 AM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
>    Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly.   Simply saying
>    "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it
>    does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have
>    1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible).
>
>    Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here.
>
>    It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't
>    try that by itself.

It works :-) :-)

Thanks for your help!

regards,
chris



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From tfb at cley.com  Tue Jun 13 00:11:30 2000
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com>
References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>
	<20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com>
Message-ID: <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com>

* David O'Brien wrote:

> This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion.  I didn't vote so before,
> but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two.  I agree that the
> first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
> gained.  But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
> discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
> hardware.

> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

Please don't.  I love reading discussions of random old bits of
hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a
long time.

--tim



From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jun 13 08:50:48 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:50:48 +1000 (EST)
Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE
In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 9, 2000  3:23:55 pm"
Message-ID: <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by David O'Brien:
> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

I will create one today or tomorrow:

	tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au	Unix Heritage

	pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au	PDP-11 Unix

You will all be subscribed to both lists. To be removed from a list,
send e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the line

	unsubscribe pups, or
	unsubscribe tuhs

For those on the digested list (twice weekly), ditto except

	unsubscribe pups-digest, or
	unsubscribe tuhs-digest

I will announce the new list(s) using them as a vehicle soon. That way,
the announcement becomes some test mail :)

Until then, tolerate the system-specific e-mail for just a bit longer.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Tue Jun 13 08:55:42 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:42 -0700
Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE
In-Reply-To: <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000
References: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000612155542.G27421@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by David O'Brien:
> > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> > guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

Hi Warren,

I was wrong for my email.  The feed back has been that people like the
combined list.  I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11
info.  I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on
to purely PDP-11 hardware.  I have been told I was wrong.

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jun 13 09:05:56 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:05:56 +1000 (EST)
Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE
In-Reply-To: <20000612155542.G27421@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 12, 2000  3:55:42 pm"
Message-ID: <200006122305.JAA24939@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by David O'Brien:
> I was wrong for my email.  The feed back has been that people like the
> combined list.  I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11
> info.  I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on
> to purely PDP-11 hardware.  I have been told I was wrong.
> -- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

Everybody, here is a person who has courage & honesty. Thanks for that, David.

However, I will still create two groups, because it will allow
more specific content to be addressed where relevant.

Cheers!
	Warren

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jun 13 10:40:04 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:40:04 +1000 (EST)
Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List
Message-ID: <200006130040.KAA25608@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Hello,
	This is to inform you that you are subscribed to the PDP Unix
Preservation Society's mailing list at pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. This
list is specifically to deal with running versions of Unix on the PDP-11
platforms. If you are not interested in this topic, please send some e-mail
to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of
the message:

	unsubscribe pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au

If you are subscribed to the digest version, then you can unsubscribe by
sending e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line
in the body of the message:

	unsubscribe pups-digest at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au

Cheers!
	Warren

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Tue Jun 13 18:07:05 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:07:05 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com> (message from Tim Bradshaw
	on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST))
References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>
	<20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com>
Message-ID: <200006130807.KAA54220@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb at cley.com>
 > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > * David O'Brien wrote:
 > 
 > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion.  I didn't vote so before,
 > > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two.  I agree that the
 > > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
 > > gained.  But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
 > > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
 > > hardware.
 > 
 > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
 > > guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
 > 
 > Please don't.  I love reading discussions of random old bits of
 > hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a
 > long time.


So do I. Actually I can understand the need of some participants to
somehow reduce their mail volume. On the other side, it seems to be
quite difficult to draw the exact line between on- and
offtopic. Personally I try to filter as good as I can, and admittedly I
do not read everything at once (and sometimes only weeks later).

Regards -- Markus


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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jun 13 04:49:12 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700
Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS
In-Reply-To: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
References: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000612114912.G242@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com>

On Thursday,  1 June 2000 at 10:25:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All,
> 	A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the
> future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive.
>
> For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally
> I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the
> Archive as that was my interest.
>
> Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such
> as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns
> etc.
>
> A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any
> Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated
> as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g
> 2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project).
>
> I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society
> (http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/), which would allow a number of groups
> like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their
> efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea.
>
> Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11
> stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a
> mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it
> goes off to /dev/null.
>
> So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of
> the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives,
> mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned.
>
> Questions:
> 	- should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives?

I don't really think it makes any difference.  Structure one archive
well, and you can get the individual platform archives simply by going
down a directory level.  The problem is, of course, that some software
can be relevant to multiple platforms.

> 	- if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.)

I'd be inclined to go for the hardware platform, but I haven't thought
it through.  Ultimately it would probably depend on the nature of the
software that came in.

> 	- if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you
> 	  consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could
> 	  sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella?

No, I don't think so.  But you might be able to twist my arm.

> 	- do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive,
> 	  mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could
> 	  point to?

No.

> 	- do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'',
> 	  or would you rather have more specific lists?

Personally I'd like it to be all-encompassing, but then, it's only a
small part of the 1000 messages I get per day, and it's easy to delete
messages I don't want to read.

> [ now stands back for the deluge! ]

That really happened, didn't it?

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From wrking at tsoft.com  Wed Jun 14 17:28:13 2000
From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:28:13 -0700
Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List
Message-ID: <000001bfd5d2$1934c380$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com>



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From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Jun 14 19:32:07 2000
From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff)
Date: 14 Jun 2000 11:32:07 +0200
Subject: Help reviewing processor features
In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700"
Message-ID: <85itvcbobs.fsf_-_@junk.nocrew.org>

The following is source code taken verbatim from my PDP-11 support code
for the GNU assembler.  Any help correcting errors would be appreciated.

This code tells the assembler what instruction set features to recognize
depending on what processor the user wants to assemble for.  Individual
features can also be enabled, e.g. if a processor option is installed.

The instruction set features are:
        cis             Commersial instruction set (optional on all
                        processors?).
        csm             CSM instruction.
        eis             Extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, and
                        all of limited-eis.
        fis             KEV11 floating-point instructions.
        fpp             FP-11 floating-point instructions.
        limited-eis     Limited extended instruction set: RTT, MARK, SXT,
                        XOR, SOB.
        mfpt            MFPT instruction.
        multiproc       Multiprocessor instructions: TSTSET, WRTLCK.
        mxps            MFPS and MTPS instructions.
        spl             SPLx instructions.
        ucode           Microcode instructions: LDUB, MED, XFC.

  if (strncmp (buf, "a", 1) == 0)               /* KA11 (11/15/20) */
    return 1; /* no extensions */

  else if (strncmp (buf, "b", 1) == 0)          /* KB11 (11/45/50/55/70) */
    return set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("spl");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "da", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-A (11/35/40) */
    return set_option ("limited-eis");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "db", 2) == 0 ||       /* KD11-B (11/05/10) */
           strncmp (buf, "dd", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-D (11/04) */
    return 1; /* no extensions */

  else if (strncmp (buf, "de", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-E (11/34) */
    return set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("mxps");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "df", 2) == 0 ||       /* KD11-F (11/03) */
           strncmp (buf, "dh", 2) == 0 ||       /* KD11-H (11/03) */
           strncmp (buf, "dq", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-Q (11/03) */
    return set_option ("limited-eis") &&
           set_option ("mxps");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "dk", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-K (11/60) */
    return set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("mxps") &&
           set_option ("ucode");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "dz", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-Z (11/44) */
    return set_option ("csm") &&
           set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("mfpt") &&
           set_option ("mxps") &&
           set_option ("spl");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "f", 1) == 0)          /* F11 (11/24) */
    return set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("mfpt") &&
           set_option ("mxps");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "j", 1) == 0)          /* J11 (11/53/73/83/84/93/94)*/
    return set_option ("csm") &&
           set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("mfpt") &&
           set_option ("multiproc") &&
           set_option ("mxps") &&
           set_option ("spl");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "t", 1) == 0)          /* T11 (11/21) */
    return set_option ("limited-eis") &&
           set_option ("mxps");


From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Jun 15 17:35:50 2000
From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff)
Date: 15 Jun 2000 09:35:50 +0200
Subject: Help reviewing PDP-11 model processors
Message-ID: <85ya478kh5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to alt.sys.pdp11 as well.

Time for the second round of assembler source code review.

If the user specifies a PDP-11 model to the assembler (e.g. -m11/45),
this code is used to tell the assembler what processor to assemble for.

Also, in one case (11/34a), the model enables FP-11 floating-point
instructions.  Should this be done for 11/34c too?  If there are any
other models with otherwise optional features installed, I'd like to
know.

  if (strcmp (arg, "03") == 0)                  /* 11/03 */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11f");             /* KD11-F */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "04") == 0)             /* 11/04 */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11d");             /* KD11-D */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "05") == 0 ||           /* 11/05 or 11/10 */
           strcmp (arg, "10") == 0)
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11b");             /* KD11-B */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "15") == 0 ||           /* 11/15 or 11/20 */
           strcmp (arg, "20") == 0)
    return set_cpu_model ("ka11");              /* KA11 */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "21") == 0)             /* 11/21 */
    return set_cpu_model ("t11");               /* T11 */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "24") == 0)             /* 11/24 */
    return set_cpu_model ("f11");               /* F11 */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "34") == 0)             /* 11/34 */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11e");             /* KD11-E */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "34a") == 0)            /* 11/34a */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11e") &&           /* KD11-E with FP-11 */
           set_option ("fpp");

  else if (strcmp (arg, "35") == 0 ||           /* 11/35 or 11/40 */
           strcmp (arg, "40") == 0)
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11da");            /* KD11-A */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "44") == 0)             /* 11/44 */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11dz");            /* KD11-Z */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "45") == 0 ||           /* 11/45/50/55/70 */
           strcmp (arg, "50") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "55") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "70") == 0)
    return set_cpu_model ("kb11");              /* KB11 */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "60") == 0)             /* 11/60 */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11k");             /* KD11-K */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "53") == 0 ||           /* 11/53/73/83/84/93/94 */
           strcmp (arg, "73") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "83") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "84") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "93") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "94") == 0)
    return set_cpu_model ("j11");               /* J11 */

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Fri Jun 16 11:06:31 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
Message-ID: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>

On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive.  In particular,
I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight.  If someone could explain to
me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the
grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD
might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the
archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-).

The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen:

Tape 1:

	AT&T 60462
Unix System V Release 2.0
VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
TPName: Root and Selectables

	AT&T 60462
Dwg: j1p077c-3  List:1M1
TP No: OTP-1P550-01  IS: 2.0V2
Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120  Files:0009
Date:01/13/86  Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2


Tape 2:
	AT&T 60463
Unix System V Release 2.0
VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
TPName: USR File System

	AT&T 60463
Dwg: j1p077c-3  List:2m2
TP No: OTP-1P550-02  IS: 2.0V2
Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120  Files:0009
Date:01/13/86  Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0


The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T:

Tape 3:
	UNIX* System III
     PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI
        Release Tape #1
*UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories

	Restricted Rights
Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject
To Restrictions Stated in your contract with
American Telephone & Telegraph

The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I
can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the
files already in the PUPS archives):

Tape 4:

	Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1)  2.9BSD
	Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
	800 BPI HT/TM boot tape.  For tar files
	skip the first 7 tape files with
	``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7''
	Reel 1 of 2   Tape #

Tape 5:
	Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1)  2.9BSD
	Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
	800 BPI		Tar of /usr/src
	Reel 2 of 2

And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.

Tape 6:
	4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
	6 files on tape:
	 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root)
	 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr)
	 6 (/usr/lib/vfont)
	last three are tar; 1600 bpi

Tape 7:
	4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
	tape 2: 3 files on tape
	 1 (/usr/src)
	 2 (user contributed software)
	 3 (/usr/ingres)
	all files are tar; 1600 bpi

Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there
are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile...

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Fri Jun 16 11:30:44 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 20:30:44 CDT
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
Message-ID: <0006160130.AA29885@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:

> And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
> they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
> incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
>
> [contents skipped, perfectly matches CSRG 4.2BSD dist]

Yes, please read them and I'll put them in the archive. I maintain the 4BSD
area.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jun 16 12:04:11 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:04:11 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 15, 2000  9: 6:31 pm"
Message-ID: <200006160204.MAA46483@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Tim Shoppa:
> On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
> Tape 1:
> 
> 	AT&T 60462
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: Root and Selectables

Yes please, I have sysVR0 in the archive at the moment.
 
> Tape 2:
> 	AT&T 60463
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: USR File System

Yes please. Don't have it yet!
 
> Tape 3:
> 	UNIX* System III
>      PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI

Could be the same as Distributions/usdl/SysIII, but read it anyway!
 
> And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
> they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
> incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.

Again, yes please!!!

Thanks Tim.
	Warren


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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Fri Jun 16 13:24:51 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
Message-ID: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>

> Again, yes please!!!

Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans
of the labels on the original tapes?  If so, is there any preference for
the format of the scan?  These are all (as Tommy Smothers
would say) "the original virgin" tapes.

Tim.

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Jun 16 18:04:53 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:04:53 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
	Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400)
References: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <200006160804.KAA12190@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>



WOW. Great. Super !! :-)


------------------
 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400
 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
 > Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive.  In particular,
 > I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight.  If someone could explain to
 > me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the
 > grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD
 > might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the
 > archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-).
 > 
 > The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen:
 > 
 > Tape 1:
 > 
 > 	AT&T 60462
 > Unix System V Release 2.0
 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
 > TPName: Root and Selectables
 > 
 > 	AT&T 60462
 > Dwg: j1p077c-3  List:1M1
 > TP No: OTP-1P550-01  IS: 2.0V2
 > Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120  Files:0009
 > Date:01/13/86  Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2
 > 
 > 
 > Tape 2:
 > 	AT&T 60463
 > Unix System V Release 2.0
 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
 > TPName: USR File System
 > 
 > 	AT&T 60463
 > Dwg: j1p077c-3  List:2m2
 > TP No: OTP-1P550-02  IS: 2.0V2
 > Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120  Files:0009
 > Date:01/13/86  Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0
 > 
 > 
 > The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T:
 > 
 > Tape 3:
 > 	UNIX* System III
 >      PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI
 >         Release Tape #1
 > *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories
 > 
 > 	Restricted Rights
 > Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject
 > To Restrictions Stated in your contract with
 > American Telephone & Telegraph
 > 
 > The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I
 > can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the
 > files already in the PUPS archives):
 > 
 > Tape 4:
 > 
 > 	Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1)  2.9BSD
 > 	Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
 > 	800 BPI HT/TM boot tape.  For tar files
 > 	skip the first 7 tape files with
 > 	``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7''
 > 	Reel 1 of 2   Tape #
 > 
 > Tape 5:
 > 	Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1)  2.9BSD
 > 	Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
 > 	800 BPI		Tar of /usr/src
 > 	Reel 2 of 2
 > 
 > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
 > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
 > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
 > 
 > Tape 6:
 > 	4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
 > 	6 files on tape:
 > 	 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root)
 > 	 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr)
 > 	 6 (/usr/lib/vfont)
 > 	last three are tar; 1600 bpi
 > 
 > Tape 7:
 > 	4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
 > 	tape 2: 3 files on tape
 > 	 1 (/usr/src)
 > 	 2 (user contributed software)
 > 	 3 (/usr/ingres)
 > 	all files are tar; 1600 bpi
 > 
 > Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there
 > are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile...
 > 
 > -- 
 >  Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 >  Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 >  7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 >  Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927
 > 
 > 

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Jun 16 18:08:07 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
In-Reply-To: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
	Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400)
References: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <200006160808.KAA12196@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400
 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > > Again, yes please!!!
 > 
 > Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans
 > of the labels on the original tapes?  If so, is there any preference for
 > the format of the scan?  These are all (as Tommy Smothers
 > would say) "the original virgin" tapes.


Well, I'm presently only a client of the archive, so to say, but why not use
png (the gif replacement advocated by the FSF). Better not use GIF for all
this licensing issues. And as far as I see, png can be shown by -- well -- 
Netscape, whereas TIFF requires a plugin or an external viewer.


Regards - Markus





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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Fri Jun 16 21:21:56 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 7:21:56 -0400
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
Message-ID: <000616072156.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>

OK, I started sorting through some more piles of tapes, and I found
a one more thing that I'm-not-quite-sure-where-it-fits:

Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
didn't remember...

Also, more goodies that may (or may not) be appropriate to add:

* A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91".  I suppose I have to get down
  on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated
  "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno.  This has
  the original UCB stickers on it.

* A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
  4/1/92".  Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late?  Is
  something like this already in Kirk's archive?

Tim.

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Fri Jun 16 21:59:26 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 06:59:26 CDT
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
Message-ID: <0006161159.AA00544@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:

> * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91".  I suppose I have to get down
>   on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated
>   "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno.  This has
>   the original UCB stickers on it.

Yes.

> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
>   4/1/92".  Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late?  Is
>   something like this already in Kirk's archive?

Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've
seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and
I'll include it in my 4BSD collection.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jun 17 00:07:07 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:07:07 -0400
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
Message-ID: <000616100707.2620009e@trailing-edge.com>

>> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
>>   4/1/92".  Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late?  Is
>>   something like this already in Kirk's archive?

>Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've
>seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and
>I'll include it in my 4BSD collection.

I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover
letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape
for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the
tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...".  Is this
the holy grail?

I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 17 00:35:55 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 09:35:55 CDT
Subject: 4.2BSD dist in the TUHS/PUPS archive: resolution
Message-ID: <0006161435.AA00708@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,

Since early fall 1998 the archive has had an incomplete distribution of 4.2BSD
reconstructed from some bogus tape images from Per Andersson. This morning Tim
Shoppa read an authentic 4.2BSD tape dist. I compared it with the incomplete
dist in the archive and found that it is the same dist, Tim Shoppa's version is
complete and correct, and Per Andersson's version was incomplete. The files
that were in the archive were correct. I added the missing files this morning,
making the 4.2BSD dist in the archive complete. It is in
Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD, it is a superset of what was there before (because
what was there before was just missing some files), and it identically matches
Tim Shoppa's copy in his home directory.

I left Per Andersson's original (bogus) files in the Per_Andersson
subdirectory. Warren, it's up to you if you want to keep or delete them.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 17 00:44:07 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 09:44:07 CDT
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
Message-ID: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:

> I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover
> letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape
> for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the
> tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...".  Is this
> the holy grail?

OK, I dunno whether it qualifies as "the holy grail" or not, but yes, it is the
4.4BSD-Alpha dist.

> I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release.

OK, just upload both if you can, I'll be happy to put them in the archive and
I'm sure Warren will be too.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Sat Jun 17 02:31:18 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:31:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 vocoder timing; FreeBSD kernel woes
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006161046320.22889-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

Sorry in advance if you unintentionally deleted this message because of
the topic, I'm an incorrigable smart-arse and couldn't resist. My other
idea was ILOVEYOU, but that's been done before...

> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> read this list for.

The initiator of this post was yours truly. I have been silet since this
post. I hate politics. I figured, "just let it simmer down and then
rationally respond." I hate flamefesten.

Sorry. Can't please everybody all the time. Hey, I don't even try, most of
the time. I find that sitting on the fence can be quite an uncomfortable
position to be in, especially if you're on one of the fenceposts. But, wie
immer, I digress. I didn't mean to crowd your (that is, the royal "your")
mailbox with my hardware woes. I had some issues, directly related to my
_usage_ of PDP-11 UNIX, and, insofar as both the mentioned PDP-11 mailing
list and the DECUS PDP-11 list on eisner.decus.org are both ghost towns,
and several members of this mailing list seem to know quite a bit about
both the hardware platform and the software I choose to run (2.11BSD), I
dreamt of things that never were and said "why not." Thanks to the
knowledge of fellow list-members, my questions were answered, my problem
was solved, and the result is now available in the PUPS archive under
Tools/Disks/rx50-FreeBSD.tar.gz (no comments on code quality to the group,
please; that would be off-topic [read: embarassing] :) Qs and Cs to
jasomill at indiana.edu welcome), which is useful to me and may possibly be
of some interest to other PDP-11 UNIX hobbyists trying to solve the same
problem.

I read the entire PUPS mailing list archive before making my first post.
I've noticed that the top three platform-specific topics seem to be (in
order of appearance):

  1) emulator software
  2) VAX hardware
  3) PDP hardware

I don't use an emulator and I don't have a VAX (though I want one very
very much, but admittably to run VMS mostly), but the discussions don't
bother me. As a matter of fact, some of them interest me; those that
don't, I skip. Anyway, just an observation.

I know it's not the PHPS, but I can not be dissuaded in my belief that
actually _using_ the systems is a vital part of a living preservation
effort, and using them without functional hardware is a bit difficult,
emulators notwithstanding. But please don't deactivate me :), I'll read a
UHS list and a PUPS list and a VAX list and an RT-PC list (I've been
wanting to get my hands on one of those buggers for awhile, actually),
desirous of everything at the same time, and try my best not to yawn and
say commonplace things (apologizes to Jack Kerouac). Thanks again for help
and interesting discussion, to all parties involved, mad to talk or less
so.

What about archiving PDP hardware information? I don't mean discussing
obscure timing details of RK05 controllers or anything, but having a
section of the archive for random hardware tidbits re: PDP. It's not
_directly_ related to UNIX preservation, but it'd be a boon to PDP UNIX
users (not to mention keeping list traffic down in re: these things), and
its space requirements are miniscule. Maybe wait until the PDP-specific
stuff is split off, and create a directory. I'd be happy to maintain it
(I'm also attempting to contact DEC ne Compaq about getting some legacy
docs released; those, of course, would be included; no, that's not what
Mentec bought, I don't think, that's RSX and RSTS/E and RT-11, maybe even
Ultrix. They provide engineering support to DEC PDP-11 customers as well
as compatible hardware, but I believe Compaq still owns the copyrights to
the Digital hardware documentation. Not 100% sure though).

Once again, sorry, once again, thanks, and in closing,

AWWWW,
jasomill



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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 17 05:11:28 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:28 -0700
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
In-Reply-To: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 09:44:07AM -0500
References: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000616121128.A35577@dragon.nuxi.com>

It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:

1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
files.

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 17 05:27:54 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 14:27:54 CDT
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
Message-ID: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

David O'Brien <obrien at NUXI.com> wrote:

> It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
> distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
>
> 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
> 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
> 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
> files.

I know this of course, I have one.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)


From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 17 06:12:55 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area
Message-ID: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,

Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in

Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha

Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
and preservation section of our project.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jun 17 06:16:00 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>

>It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
>distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
>
>1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
>4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
>4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
>files.

That suggestion got me looking at "The Unix History Graphing Project" at

  http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Unix_History/index.html

Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
on the McCusick CD set?  Most of the comment-type entries in the
Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
but not real complete.

Do any of the Ultrix versions show up somewhere in the The Unix History
Graphing project?  I know that they're offshoots from 2BSD and 4BSD, but
I wouldn't mind seeing someone annotate when they shot off and what
was changed/added/deleted.  (Did I just volunteer?!?)

Another history question: Anyone know if there's any 2.9BSD-Seismo
distributions kicking around?

Tim.

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 17 06:41:27 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:41:27 CDT
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:

> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set?  Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.

The line of True UNIX development is straight:

V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus

There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:

4.BSD-Tahoe -> Net/1 -> 4.3BSD-Reno -> Net/2 -> 4.4BSD-Alpha -> 4.4BSD

1BSD and 2BSD were collections of userland bits without a kernel or a compiler
toolchain or anything else that defines a system and its hardware platform, so
it's generally incorrect to consider them as versions of UNIX, much less as
versions of PDP-11 UNIX. They were bits to be added to an existing UNIX system,
which could conceptualy be anything, although V6 and V7 for the PDP-11 were the
intended targets.

Berkeley UNIX never ran on PDP-11s, only on VAXen, that is, there has never
been a Berkeley UNIX kernel or compiler toolchain for the PDP-11, only for the
VAX. As for 2.xBSD, that's an ex-post-facto backport of BSD UNIX to PDP-11s,
ex-post-facto in the sense that it was made after the torch of UNIX passed from
PDP-11 to VAX, and is a human-alien hybrid of PDP-11 V7 on steroids with dumbed
down VAX 4.xBSD. It comes nowhere near to mainline UNIX or mainline BSD.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Sat Jun 17 07:44:08 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500
References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> 
> > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > on the McCusick CD set?  Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > but not real complete.
> 
> The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> 
> V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> 
> There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:

[... and more spewage ...]

I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.

Thor

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From pups at mrynet.com  Sat Jun 17 09:02:56 2000
From: pups at mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:02:56 -0700
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <200006162302.QAA73794@mrynet.com>

> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > > on the McCusick CD set?  Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > > but not real complete.
> > 
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > 
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> > 
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
> 
> [... and more spewage ...]
> 
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
> 
> Thor

I second some form of censure here.  I already filter this person's email
when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his 
non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies.

Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I
wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have.  Simply put, people
are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and 
are downright rude and insulting.

Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved
in faces at every opportunity is intolerable.

Regards,
Scott G. Taylor


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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 17 09:10:53 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>; from tls@rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400
References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> > > Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing
> > > Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real
> > > complete.
> > 
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > 
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> > 
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
> 
> [... and more spewage ...]
> 
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.

I have to agree.  From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.


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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 17 09:11:45 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
In-Reply-To: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500
References: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000616161145.G35577@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> I know this of course, I have one.

Of course you do, but others may not.  So why are you wasting my disk
space with this email?
 

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From apgarcia at hackaholic.org  Sat Jun 17 10:16:48 2000
From: apgarcia at hackaholic.org (A. P. Garcia)
Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: "David O'Brien"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700"
References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com>
Message-ID: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"David O'Brien" <obrien at NUXI.com> writes:

> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
> 
> I have to agree.  From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.

No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it."

You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jun 17 10:28:59 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST)
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jun 16, 2000  5:44: 8 pm"
Message-ID: <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
> Thor

While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.

Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it
be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs,
so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings
you could say:

	As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD
	but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details.

I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but
I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive.

For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers
from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please
try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you
might post something like:

	In article by Joe Bloe:
	> I think turtles are ugly.
	I disagree violently with this person's views, and I'll
	take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter
	with the mailing list.

I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive
and not divisive.

Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff,
which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all
the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to
the right list!!!

Thank you,
	Warren

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jun 17 10:29:13 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
Message-ID: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com>

Yesterday I asked:

>Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
>didn't remember...

Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.)  Is this something
worthwhile to put in the archive?  At the moment, looking at the
timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
"fairly recent" end:

2.9 from 1983
2.9.1BSD from 1983
2.10BSD from 1987
2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.11BSD from the past year

Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jun 17 10:07:24 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Digest?
In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289@home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000  7:43:50 am"
Message-ID: <200006170007.KAA55558@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Robert Porter:
> Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists and subscribe to some
> sort of digest?  I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email
> than I get otherwise).

Send mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines:

	unsubscribe tuhs
	unsubscribe pups
	subscribe pups-digest
	subscribe tuhs-digest

Cheers!
	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Jun 17 12:09:00 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
Message-ID: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

	I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)

> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
> Yesterday I asked:
> 
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
> >didn't remember...
> 
> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.)  Is this something

	You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted
	("real work" the boss wanted ;)).
	
	It's more than half way to 2.11 though.  Probably closer to 80 or 90%.
	The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out
	and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last
	folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number
	of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues
	and distribution.

	There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would
	be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning
	of 1991).


> timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
> "fairly recent" end:
> 
> 2.9 from 1983
> 2.9.1BSD from 1983
> 2.10BSD from 1987
> 2.10.1BSD from 1989

	2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991

> Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
> step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?

	I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)

	A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might
	have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Sat Jun 17 13:20:04 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000
References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
> > Thor
> 
> While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
> I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.

While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to
my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack
on Keith Bostic.  I find this, um, fascinating.

I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for
the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference
with speech that another poster's quotation decried.  I don't see why
PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the
people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve.

Thor

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 17 14:55:04 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:04 -0700
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com>; from tls@rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400
References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
> catalog, and preserve.

Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.

Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
Source Revolution".  This is on-line at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html.  To quote:

    During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
    brought up the subject of the popularity of the
    freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
    possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
    BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
    large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
    could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
    utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
    Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
    
    Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
    development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
    from scratch based solely on their published descriptions.  Their
    only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
    Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
    rewrote.  The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
    trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
    Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
    such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow.  Soon
    the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
    all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.

    Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
    hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
    our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
    over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
    originated in the 32/V release.

With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
should be tolerated.

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sat Jun 17 20:38:09 2000
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:38:09 +0100
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com>
References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>
 <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
 <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com> <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com>
Message-ID: <Hf1bqXARU1S5EwcL@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <20000616215504.I35577 at dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien
<obrien at NUXI.com> writes
>On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
>> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
>> catalog, and preserve.
>
>Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
>Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
>talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
>Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
>Source Revolution".  This is on-line at
>http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html.  To quote:
>
>    During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
>    brought up the subject of the popularity of the
>    freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
>    possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
>    BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
>    large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
>    could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
>    utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
>    Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
>    
>    Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
>    development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
>    from scratch based solely on their published descriptions.  Their
>    only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
>    Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
>    rewrote.  The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
>    trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
>    Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
>    such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow.  Soon
>    the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
>    all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
>
>    Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
>    hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
>    our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
>    over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
>    originated in the 32/V release.
>
>With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
>should be tolerated.
>
Seconded!!!
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sat Jun 17 20:36:15 2000
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
In-Reply-To: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com>
References: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Hi --
>
>       I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
>
>> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
>> Yesterday I asked:
>> 
>> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>> >Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
>> >didn't remember...
>> 
>> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
>> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
>> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.)  Is this something

>       I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
>
For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
archive.  Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
normally be interesting to the average user group punter?.  This might
have some effects on the archive structure.

Robin

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sun Jun 18 01:04:30 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

David O'Brien <obrien at NUXI.com> wrote:

> Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
> [snipped description of how Bostic, like a murderous American surgeon, cut
>  out with his butcher knife all the Holy Original True Pure UNIX(R) code, the
>  code that made BSD Berkeley UNIX(R) and not just some little mortal *BSD,
>  and replaced it with cheap plastic prostetics]

It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of
True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True
UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can
make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle
of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all
without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the
source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the
circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the
only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric
bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't
part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no
position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has
changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their
homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free
clickwrap license.

If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From soren at wheel.dk  Sun Jun 18 01:21:41 2000
From: soren at wheel.dk (Soren S. Jorvang)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500
References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000617172141.A24254@gnyf.wheel.dk>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>

I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list.


-- 
Soren

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From mallison at konnections.com  Sun Jun 18 02:05:01 2000
From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer>

I think I understand what Michael is saying.  Or at least it means something
to me.

I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
PUPS and now TUHS.

Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
machines.  And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).

The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
is fine.  We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team.  But
the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
pertinent to running UNIX System N.n

Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
se.

Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.

I won't fault Michael for his perspective.  But I guess we should agree to
define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.

Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)

-Mike

Mike Allison
Stranded in Utah, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive


>If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
And
>I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
>about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
are
>still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
>


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From kshuff at fast.net  Sun Jun 18 02:31:18 2000
From: kshuff at fast.net (kshuff)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net>

Michael Sokolov wrote:

> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
> 

  That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
your views
  and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
more "modern"
  hardware and not true UNIX.  We're not all living 20 years in the
past.

  K.S.

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sun Jun 18 03:34:16 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 12:34:16 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006171734.AA02816@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

kshuff <kshuff at fast.net> wrote:

>   That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
> your views
>   and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
> more "modern"
>   hardware and not true UNIX.  We're not all living 20 years in the
> past.

Then why are you on this list?

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sun Jun 18 04:13:45 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:45 -0700
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500
References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000617111345.H69941@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.

That is a fine opinion, and one understandable.  BUT, I don't see Joy,
McKusick, or Lefler on your list.  So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
rather than some System III/V + 2BSD??  Joy & McKusick modified the AT&T
kernel quite a bit.  Or did you not know that they touched that code.

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sun Jun 18 04:40:44 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 13:40:44 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006171840.AA02908@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

David O'Brien <obrien at NUXI.com> wrote:

> That is a fine opinion, and one understandable.  BUT, I don't see Joy,
> McKusick, or Lefler on your list.

Their work is an *extension* of the Ritchie/Thompson original UNIX, not a
replacement. 3BSD through 4.3BSD are direct logical successors of V7/32V
research UNIX.

> So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
> rather than some System III/V [...]

Because I believe that 3BSD through 4.3BSD are the real trunk successors of V7
and 32V, not System III and System V (more affectionately known as Missed'em-
five as you can see in the Jargon File). True UNIX is Research UNIX, UNIX that
is for research purposes, not commercial ones. The AT&T Education Software
License I have buried in my desk somewhere prohibits any commercial use. System
III and V deserted this True UNIX mission, but Berkeley UNIX picked it up
instead.

Exactly the same later happened with 4.4BSD and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)


From enf at pobox.com  Sun Jun 18 05:42:48 2000
From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:42:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>
References: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <200006171942.OAA72964@shell-2.enteract.com>

Tim Shoppa writes,

> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set?  Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.

Maybe this has already been covered sufficiently, but several of
the BSD releases came with lists of what had changed since the
previous versions.  I've HTMLified the ones I have copies of at

  http://pobox.com/~enf/lore/unix/bsd/

eric

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From clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net  Sun Jun 18 10:23:21 2000
From: clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net (Cyrille Lefevre)
Date: 18 Jun 2000 02:23:21 +0200
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT"
References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <em5vbzwm.fsf@pc166.gits.fr>

msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes:

[snip]

> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.

are you sure your name isn't "Rev. Don Kool" alias oldno7 at home.com ?

it's a joke :)

Cyrille.
-- 
home:mailto:clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net Supprimer "no-spam." pour me repondre.
work:mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre at no-spam.edf.fr Remove "no-spam." to answer me back.


From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Mon Jun 19 11:25:02 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:25:02 +1000 (EST)
Subject: List Charter, please
In-Reply-To: <E133jmG-00026n-00@moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk> from Alan F R Bain at "Jun 18, 2000  7:26:31 pm"
Message-ID: <200006190125.LAA67300@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Alan F R Bain:
> Warren, 
> Maybe it would be possible to have list guidelines.
> Alan

Here is the PUPS list charter. If you have violent opposition to it, then
please e-mail me.

	Warren

The PUPS list on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au promotes communication between those
people who are interested in the versions of Unix which ran on PDP-11s. Unix
is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code
ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs.

Topics that fall within the list's charter include:

	+ how to install, configure & maintain a PDP-11 Unix system
	+ discussion of PDP-11 hardware issues related to PDP-11 Unix
	+ applications for PDP-11 Unix systems
	+ modification of PDP-11 Unix systems
	+ technical comparisons between PDP-11 Unix systems
	+ anecdotes relating to the history & development of PDP-11 Unix
	+ discussion & announcements of the contents of the PDP-11
	  section of the Unix Archive

Topics that fall outside of the list's charter include:

	+ discussion on non PDP-11 Unix systems, unless they are being
	  compared technically with PDP-11 Unix systems
	+ attacks on particular individuals, groups or organisations
	+ postings which disenfranchise or alienate a individual list
	  subscriber, a group of subscribers, or a particular version
	  of PDP-11 Unix

The list will, in general, not be moderated. However, if a list subscriber
continues to send off-charter postings to the list after warnings to that
effect, then their postings may be moderated.

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 17:58:11 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area
In-Reply-To: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG> (msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG)
References: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <200006190758.JAA24577@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>


 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT
 > From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
 > Sender: owner-tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
 > 
 > Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
 > BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in
 > 
 > Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha
 > 
 > Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
 > and preservation section of our project.


Hi Friends,

I really appreciate that. I'm - generally - more a reader than a user
of ancient code, so concentration on a certain version (or
architecture, i.e.  BSD vs the VAX or others) is not as important for
me as is an uninterupted, complete coverage of historical versions.

Having access to this version of BSD4.4 and (soon) all the other
stuff, Tim Shoppa discovered recently, is really GREAT for me.

Please keep everything You can. I think I can predict reliably, future
generations of software historians will be very thankful.

Regards -- Markus



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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 18:11:45 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:11:45 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf@localhost.localdomain> (apgarcia@hackaholic.org)
References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com> <m2wvjp88lr.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia at hackaholic.org>
 > Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000
 > Lines: 13
 > User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > "David O'Brien" <obrien at NUXI.com> writes:
 > 
 > > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
 > > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
 > > > material of this nature on the lists.
 > > 
 > > I have to agree.  From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
 > 
 > No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
 > something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
 > to the death your right to say it."
 > 
 > You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.

I agree. Still I'd prefer (and humbly ask) from Michael Solokov a more
diplomatic attitude. As far as I can see, Mr Bostic has contributed to
UNIX in general and to the PUPS later, which entitles him to being
treated somewhat more respectfully :-)

UNIX is variance, not a one-size-fits-all system.

On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), and it would make me sad, to
see so excellent and noble :-) men fight each other. Let's avoid that,
and let there be no war in the (ancient) UNIX camp.

I hope Michael had no intention to hurt the feelings of Keith Bostic.


Regards -- Markus



 > 

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 18:16:01 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:16:01 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
In-Reply-To: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
	Shoppa on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400)
References: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <200006190816.KAA24598@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400
 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > Yesterday I asked:
 > 
 > >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
 > >Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
 > >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
 > >didn't remember...
 > 
 > Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
 > 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
 > Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.)  Is this something
 > worthwhile to put in the archive?  At the moment, looking at the
 > timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
 > "fairly recent" end:
 > 
 > 2.9 from 1983
 > 2.9.1BSD from 1983
 > 2.10BSD from 1987
 > 2.10.1BSD from 1989
 > 2.11BSD from the past year
 > 
 > Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
 > step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
 > I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my

Hehe. That seems to be a real danger :-)

 > proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
 > adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.


Hi Tim,

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Seriously: If You ever do not want to put
something in the archive, give it to me. I have the impression one
needs the intermediate versions to be ever able to crosscheck the
transfer of features between the diverse branches.


Regards Markus.



 > 
 > -- 
 >  Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 >  Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 >  7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 >  Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927
 > 

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 18:48:59 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:48:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
In-Reply-To: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW@ruffnready.co.uk> (message from Robin Birch on
	Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100)
References: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com> <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW@ruffnready.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200006190848.KAA24676@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
 > Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com
 > From: Robin Birch <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > In message <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
 > <sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes
 > >Hi --
 > >
 > >       I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
 > >
 > >> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
 > >> Yesterday I asked:
 > >> 
 > >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
 > >> >Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
 > >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
 > >> >didn't remember...
 > >> 
 > >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
 > >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
 > >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.)  Is this something
 > 
 > >       I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
 > >
 > For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
 > archive.  Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
 > historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
 > normally be interesting to the average user group punter?.  This might
 > have some effects on the archive structure.

Well, perhaps not the archive structure should be changed. What I miss
is more something like a getting-started-guide: Which versions you
could try first with - let's say the emulator - and how to boot them.


Regards -- Markus


 > 
 > Robin
 > 
 > ____________________________________________________________________
 > Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk
 > 
 > M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome
 > 

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 18:58:21 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer>
	(mallison@konnections.com)
References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>



 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison at konnections.com>
 > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > I think I understand what Michael is saying.  Or at least it means something
 > to me.
 > 
 > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
 > PUPS and now TUHS.
 > 
 > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
 > machines.  And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).

Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
offspring.

Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's
archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ?


 > 
 > The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
 > is fine.  We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
 > to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team.  But
 > the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
 > pertinent to running UNIX System N.n
 > 
 > Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
 > se.
 > 
 > Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
 > regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.
 > 
 > I won't fault Michael for his perspective.  But I guess we should agree to
 > define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.

Well, not to be disprespectful to honorable members of the community
certainly should be a parameter :-)

It makes me sad to see all this.

Regards -- Markus
 

 > Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)
 > 
 > -Mike
 > 
 > Mike Allison
 > Stranded in Utah, USA
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
 > To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
 > Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
 > Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
 > 
 > 
 > >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
 > And
 > >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
 > >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
 > are
 > >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
 > >
 > 
 > 

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 18:59:40 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:40 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net> (message from kshuff on Sat, 17 Jun 2000
	12:31:18 -0400)
References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net>
Message-ID: <200006190859.KAA24689@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400
 > From: kshuff <kshuff at fast.net>
 > Organization: I'm not organized
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > Michael Sokolov wrote:
 > 
  > > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
 > > 
 > 
 >   That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
 > your views
 >   and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
 > more "modern"
 >   hardware and not true UNIX.  We're not all living 20 years in the
 > past.

And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
genuine article'.

 -- Markus

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From tfb at cley.com  Mon Jun 19 20:32:14 2000
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
	<20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>
	<20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com>
	<m2wvjp88lr.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
	<200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <14669.63150.572660.30605@cley.com>

* Markus Leypold wrote:
> On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
> VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), 

Weell, I don't know about that.  All them modern Vaxens aren't really
*original* are they?  Got microprocessors in, half of 'em.  Never did
hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
myself.

--tim


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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Mon Jun 19 21:19:11 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>; from leypold@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200
References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <20000619071911.A23440@rek.tjls.com>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200, Markus Leypold wrote:
> 
> 
>  > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>  > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison at konnections.com>
>  > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
>  > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>  > 
>  > I think I understand what Michael is saying.  Or at least it means something
>  > to me.
>  > 
>  > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
>  > PUPS and now TUHS.
>  > 
>  > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
>  > machines.  And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
> 
> Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
> yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
> brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
> Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
> offspring.

For those trying to keep track of the exact Unix history graph,
it should be noted that the above history isn't quite right.

Jolitz' original 386 port was partially done for CSRG and partially
done for what became BSDI.  A somewhat infamous falling-out during
Usenix resulted in Jolitz *redoing* his 386 port and releasing it
as 386BSD shortly after BSDI released BSD/386.

BSD/386 0.0 was released, then 0.1.  Jolitz kept saying things
about "0.2" but it began to become clear to most people that it
wouldn't be released soon, if ever.  A semi-official "patchkit"
sprung up, and soon most people were running 386BSD 0.1 plus
patchkit X.

Meanwhile, Adam Glass and Chris Demetriou and, soon, a small
number of others, started work on what became NetBSD, a centrally
managed free software project that sought to bring some CSRG-like
focus to the 386BSD chaos.  An early snapshot of this made its
way to the patchkit folks, who declined for various reasons to
participate.  NetBSD 0.8 was released, and a little bit later
the patchkit maintainers (mostly) released FreeBSD.  Though there
was new work -- and would eventually be a *lot* of new work --
there was also clearly a lot of code that came not from 386BSD
or the patchkits but from that pre-0.8 NetBSD snapshot.  Since
these facts are pretty well known among the principals involved
it's always been a mystery to me why Unix history graphs seem
to get the later wiggles in the xBSD line all wrong.

Thor

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From db at aptant.com  Mon Jun 19 22:37:08 2000
From: db at aptant.com (Donald Brownlee)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 05:37:08 -0700
Subject: save everything
Message-ID: <394E13B9.19957855@aptant.com>

My $0.02:


I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual
criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux,
FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an
earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining
several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt
to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been
used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as
well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It
yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original,"
and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a
common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much
else about it, except that its results may depend on alot
of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics
work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking
of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a
work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a
technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved
with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be
more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes that people
thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out to be different.
In this situation, textual criticism might be used to reconstruct a "true," V7
release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up application of the techniques.

In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of
tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as
possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such
a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a "true" release,
it is important that they document their work and not throw away the
tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more
tapes may appear in the future which could lead to
the reconstruction of an even truer tape.

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun 20 00:04:49 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:04:49 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006191404.AA05277@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Markus Leypold <leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:

> And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
> genuine article'.

No, no emulator can give you a feel for the genuine article. You won't get that
feel until you get your toes crushed by an H9642 side panel, get your knuckles
scraped by a BA23, or take a day off with your back hurting after carrying an
RA81 across the campus.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From pino at dohd.cx  Tue Jun 20 00:08:36 2000
From: pino at dohd.cx (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200
Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices
Message-ID: <20000619160836.A12288@mud.stack.nl>

Hello!

I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want
to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It
only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be 
enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install
bare-bones on that disk?

I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something
bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it.

Your help is greatly appreciated..

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.cx - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
		Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun 20 00:25:44 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:25:44 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006191425.AA05387@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Markus Leypold <leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:

> Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's
> archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ?

According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX.
His Charter defines UNIX as follows:

"Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source
code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs."

Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original
UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source
licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and
belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it
does not belong in the archive or on these lists.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Tue Jun 20 00:27:09 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:27:09 -0400
Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices
Message-ID: <000619102709.262000b0@trailing-edge.com>

>I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want
>to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It
>only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be 
>enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install
>bare-bones on that disk?

You can put the root partition of 2.11BSD on there quite nicely, it'll
live in 8 Mbytes.  Trimming down /usr to 42 Mbytes will depend on what
exactly you need from it, though.  Certainly you can set up a system
with compilers, etc., even though you won't be able to have all the
sources online at the same time.

>I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something
>bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it.

You want to read Terry Kennedy's document on adding third-party disks
to DEC RQDX3 controllers.  You can find it at

  ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt

Information about formatting, jumper settings, etc., is all there.

Tim.

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From andy.sporner at networkengines.com  Tue Jun 20 00:30:39 2000
From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andrew Sporner)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:39 -0400
Subject: save everything and divisiveness
Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C8CD@neimail.networkengines.com>

+ my $0.02 makes $1.00

>From my perspective I have watched this argument on this
list about purism and otherwise.

>From a practical sense, historical trueness makes sense
when we are considering changes to something.  That is 
to evaluate whether it was better before or after; with
the ultimate goal of coming up with a truly usefull sytem.
Otherwise O/S researchers would never be able to make
advancements because they would be repeating each others
mistakes.   But to take a lesson from history makes having
such an archive of old source important.

To get hung up on a particular release makes sense I guess
if you are a collector, such as one who collects vases
because that is an art form.  A vase from the Ming chinesse
period is worth more if it has not been modified (for instance
some later owner decides that there are not enough flowers
on the vase--so he adds some).   However with Systems software
this is not the case because it is not a tangible item such
as a processor such as a PDP-11 or PDP-8.  I know many people
that still run PDP-8's (I have one myself), but universally
ever user of the '8 is trying to make the software on it
run better and more efficiently.  

So I would not be one to castigate some pioneers of systems
software whoses names happened not to be K&R.  I am sure that
the both Kernigan and Richie both are marveled at what Unix
has become.  In fact I believe one of them went on to write
Plan-9 which is really off-the-wall compared to their earlier
work. 

Good software is inherrently in a steady process of evolution.
The only piece of software I have ever seen that never evolved
was the classic "Hello World" program that everybody learns to
write on their first lesson in programming.  

OK, That's it...



Andy Sporner


> 
> My $0.02:
> 
> 
> I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual
> criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux,
> FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an
> earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining
> several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt
> to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been
> used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as
> well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It
> yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original,"
> and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a
> common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much
> else about it, except that its results may depend on alot
> of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics
> work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking
> of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a
> work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a
> technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved
> with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be
> more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes 
> that people
> thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out 
> to be different.
> In this situation, textual criticism might be used to 
> reconstruct a "true," V7
> release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up 
> application of the techniques.
> 
> In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of
> tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as
> possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such
> a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a 
> "true" release,
> it is important that they document their work and not throw away the
> tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more
> tapes may appear in the future which could lead to
> the reconstruction of an even truer tape.
> 

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun 20 00:37:31 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:37:31 CDT
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tim Bradshaw <tfb at cley.com> wrote:

> * Markus Leypold wrote:
> > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
> > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), 
>
> Weell, I don't know about that.  All them modern Vaxens aren't really
> *original* are they?  Got microprocessors in, half of 'em.  Never did
> hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
> myself.

Now, stop right there! I'm an international agent and I'm armed! :-)

To start with, I don't want to use the term "modern", ever. As for what VAXen I
support and target, my primary emphasis is on BI/XMI VAXen, which are very big
and are absolute miracles of architectural beauty. They don't undermine the
original VAXness a single bit. On the opposite, they actually implement many of
the astounding miracles of the holy original VAX Architecture Reference Manual
that the original VAX-11s were only going to. I also place a high emphasis on
Q22-bus MicroVAXen, as they are readily available and don't require special
power, and yet they fully comply with the proper VAX architecture.

There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about
"modern VAXen" are probably talking about. Those are indeed very cost-reduced,
VAXness-deprived, and PeeCee-fied. I do plan on supporting them, just so that I
support every VAX ever made, but I by no means endorse them. They are not real
VAXen.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun 20 00:40:50 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:40:50 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX
>  code and thus of no relevance to this group]

By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Tue Jun 20 01:11:00 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500
References: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000619111100.A5557@rek.tjls.com>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> 
> > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX
> >  code and thus of no relevance to this group]
> 
> By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.

I'm asking you, once more, to take your fanaticism elsewhere.  I'm also
asking the moderator, once more, in light of this, your recent attacks
on Keith Bostic, your totally gratuitous "NutBSD" swipe in your most
recent missive, and your general misbehaviour and abysmal nettiquite in
your time on this list, to cause you to take your fanaticism elsewhere.

Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix"
in quite the same way in which you do?  Of course not.  Your opinion
is the only one that matters, and if anyone else doesn't see it that
way, well, then, by God, you'll just have to spew flamage until he
goes away.  Great.  Really, absolutely what's needed in a preservation
project.

Thor

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun 20 01:14:59 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 10:14:59 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006191514.AA05578@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix"
> in quite the same way in which you do?

In this case my definition of UNIX agrees with that set by the Charters for
both lists.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From joe at barrera.org  Tue Jun 20 01:17:01 2000
From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:17:01 -0700
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <000001bfda01$6f987c70$0300a8c0@joebar>

> By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.

Bwa ha ha.
That's pretty funny, Michael.


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From RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk  Tue Jun 20 01:29:44 2000
From: RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk (Broadway, Rusel)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:29:44 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <9114940C5E0FD31186950008C7B9A6021845D4@coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk.50.130.194.in-addr.arpa>

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Tue Jun 20 03:59:54 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:54 -0700
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500
References: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000619105954.D2592@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about
                                         ^^^^^

This is *TOTALY* uncalled for.

Warren, Michael has definitely crossed the bounds of lack of respect for
others.  Would you please consider moderating his posts?

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)


From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Tue Jun 20 06:06:24 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:06:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PUPS/TUHS UNIX scope.....
In-Reply-To: <0006191425.AA05387@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 19, 2000 09:25:44 AM
Message-ID: <200006192006.QAA21903@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX.
> His Charter defines UNIX as follows:
> 
> "Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source
> code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs."
> 
> Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original
> UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source
> licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and
> belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it
> does not belong in the archive or on these lists.

One might easily consider Warren's Charter definition, following the wording
closely, to mean that it includes successor derivatives of V1-V7.  That
might particularly include the BSD's, be they original CSRG code or
derived code, which can be traced back through CSRG, to V1-V7.

All of the x86ish derivations can be traced back to Jolitz's port which
had its beginnings around 4.3 or 4.3-Tahoe, if I am remembering the source
tree structure in one of my source trees.

Thus, technically, a direct lineal descent case of 386BSD, NetBSD, and
FreeBSD, up through the point of unencumbering, could be made as subject
to Warren's Charter definition, and subject to our archiving scope.

Bob



From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sun Jun 25 11:18:02 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:18:02 -0400
Subject: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck!
Message-ID: <000624211802.2620014a@trailing-edge.com>

OK, I think I'm figuring out how to install Unix System III on a
11/45.  In particular, I mount the first tape on a MT tape drive, get
a RP04 up and spinning, and boot from tape:

UNIX tape boot loader
UNIX -- Initial Load: Tape-to-Disk

The type of disk drive on which the Root file system will reside,
as well as the type of tape drive that will be used for Tape 1
must be specified below.

Answer the questions with a 'y' or 'n' followed by
a carriage return or line feed.
There is no type-ahead -- wait for the question to complete.
The character '@' will kill the entire line,
while the character '#' will erase the last character typed.

RP03 at address 176710?: n
RP04/5/6 at address 176700?: y
Drive number (0-7)?: 0
Disk drive 0 selected.

Mount a formatted pack on drive 0.
Ready?: y

TU10/TM11 at address 172520?: y
Drive number (0-7)?: 0
Tape drive 0 selected.

The tape on drive 0 will be read from the current position
at 800bpi, 5120 characters (10 blocks) per record,
and written onto the pack on drive 0 starting at block 0.

Ready?: y
Size of filesystem to be copied is 6000 blocks.
What is the pack volume label? (e.g. p0001): p0001
The pack will be labelled p0001.
The boot block for your type of disk drive will now be installed.

The file system copy is now complete.

To boot the basic unix for your disk and tape drives
as indicated above, mount this pack on drive 0
and read in the boot block (block 0) using
whatever means you have available; see romboot(8), 70boot(8).

Then boot the program unixhptm using diskboot(8).
Normally:  #0=unixhptm

The system will initially come up single-user; see init(8).
If you have an upper case only console terminal,
you must execute: stty lcase; see stty(1).

After UNIX is up, link the file unixhptm to unix using ln(1).
        # ln /unixhptm /unix

Set the date(1).

Good Luck!

The tape will now be rewound.


[Now I boot from the RP04]:

#0=unixhptm

UNIX/3.0.1: unixhptm
real mem = 253952 bytes
avail mem = 187584 bytes
unix
single-user
# ls -l
total 805
drwxr-xr-x   2 root     sys           32 Feb 15  1979 bck
drwxrwxr-x   2 bin      bin         1312 Dec 15  1981 bin
drwxr-xr-x   2 root     sys          528 Dec 15  1981 dev
drwxr-xr-x   3 root     sys         1056 Oct 26 14:57 etc
drwxrwxr-x   2 bin      bin          272 Dec 15  1981 lib
drwxrwxrwx   2 bin      bin           32 May 31  1980 lost+found
drwxr-xr-x   2 root     sys           32 Feb 15  1979 mnt
drwxrwxr-x   3 bin      bin          368 Dec 15  1981 stand
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        51382 Nov  9  1982 unixhpht
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        50778 Sep  3  1980 unixhptm
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        49380 Sep  3  1980 unixrkht
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        48782 Sep  3  1980 unixrktm
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        50172 Sep  3  1980 unixrlht
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        49574 Sep  3  1980 unixrltm
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        49704 Sep  3  1980 unixrpht
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        49106 Sep  3  1980 unixrptm
drwxr-xr-x   2 sys      sys           32 Aug 19 08:46 usr

But what do I do next?  There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still
on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or
"restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use.  So
what's the next step?

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sun Jun 25 18:52:47 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:52:47 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck!
In-Reply-To: <000624211802.2620014a@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 24, 2000  9:18: 2 pm"
Message-ID: <200006250852.SAA20841@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Tim Shoppa:
> But what do I do next?  There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still
> on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or
> "restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use.  So
> what's the next step?

>From the PDP-11 SysIII in the archive, the files are cpio archives. The
/usr/src/man/docs/setup file explains what to do next. It's in nroff
format, but I don't know what macro switch to use to print it out
correctly. I'll send it in a separate e-mail to avoid clogging up the list.

	Warren


From tfb at cley.com  Fri Jun 30 02:17:16 2000
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:17:16 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [pups] 11/23 and other qbus machines
Message-ID: <14683.30348.236685.247157@cley.com>

I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23.  It looks like this is kind of
small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have
an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think).

How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this
to things like 11/73,11/83?  I'm wondering if I might one day be able
to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same
rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away
than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away.

Thanks

--tim

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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Thu Jun  1 05:18:41 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:18:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine?
Message-ID: <200005311918.PAA23647@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu>

Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in
surplus here.  A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack,
with some custom name that meant nothing to me.  But, it had two rack
cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards,
4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases.
The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb).
Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to
leave.  What might such a critter actually be?  It had half a dozen
RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top
of the case.  It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going
to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks.
It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as
DEC boards inside.

Bob





From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Thu Jun  1 05:50:10 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 15:50:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine?
In-Reply-To: <200005311918.PAA23647@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu" at May 31, 2000 03:18:41 PM
Message-ID: <200005311950.PAA25124@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come available in
> surplus here.  A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 height rack,
> with some custom name that meant nothing to me.  But, it had two rack
> cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards,
> 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases.
> The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb).
> Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to
> leave.  What might such a critter actually be?  It had half a dozen
> RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top
> of the case.  It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going
> to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks.
> It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as
> DEC boards inside.

Revisitation of the thing (my curiosity got the better of me and it was
only a couple blocks away), yields some more info.

A tag on the back says it is a scsi upgrade for a Digital Bright V.
The ID plate says it is a Model BF-111/64.

Examination of the cards indicated it was full of Perception Technologies
cards rather than DEC cards, with what looks like modem transformers on
them (10 cards and 80 ports?).  Is this a telephone system of some sort?

The drive cabinet had a panel on it with:

           RDY  1  WP
           RDY  0  WP
           HALT  RESTART
           DCOK    RUN

buttons on it.  That seems DECish.  The rest, I dunno.

Anyone have any ideas as to what it might be?

Thanks

Bob


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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Thu Jun  1 06:00:03 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:00:03 -0400
Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine?
Message-ID: <000531160003.202005cb@trailing-edge.com>

>The drive cabinet had a panel on it with:
>
>           RDY  1  WP
>           RDY  0  WP
>           HALT  RESTART
>           DCOK    RUN
>
>buttons on it.  That seems DECish.

It sounds like a BA23, the DEC standard 8-slot Q-bus chassis.

>Anyone have any ideas as to what it might be?

Q-bus CPU's can be anything from a PDP-11/03 up to a Microvax,
and even some third-party CPU's with odd things like 68000's
and Z80's on them.  You really gotta look in the CPU box and
find the CPU board to determine what it is.  The badge on the
front of the BA23 may bear no relation to what's installed in
it.

If it is an -11, it's very likely an 11/73, /83 or 11/93,
possibly a 11/23.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From andy.sporner at networkengines.com  Thu Jun  1 06:01:37 2000
From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andy Sporner)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:01:37 -0400
Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine?
Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C896@neimail.networkengines.com>

Could be any number of things...  The cable is probably
a bus connector and the cabinet in the other rack is
an expansion cabinet.  What you are looking at could
be a PDP 11/05 (I used to have one), although since you
didn't mention there being a row of switches across the
front, probably not.  

There are so many different possibilities.  If you could
describe the front of the boxes that are in the rack it
would be very helpful.  The PDP 11 possibilities and fit
in a 5 1/4" (half box) would be a pdp 11/05 (with a 
row of white keys (16 of them), a pdp 11/23 (which is 
mostly white with 3 white keys in a small inset area)
and others that might have a rotary switch or perhaps
a telephone-like keypad).  Otherwise I would wonder if
it is even a DEC machine...  If it has an orange lighted
rocker switch it might be any number of later Q-BUS 
machines....  (and probably so if this has a SCSI device).



Andy

> -----Original Message-----
> From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu [mailto:rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2000 3:19 PM
> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Cc: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
> Subject: What to look for in a PDP machine?
> 
> 
> Interesting, there may be a PDPsomethingorother machine come 
> available in
> surplus here.  A quick glance at it showed it to be in a 1/2 
> height rack,
> with some custom name that meant nothing to me.  But, it had two rack
> cabinets about 6 inches high each, with definite looking DEC cards,
> 4 wide cards, with an interconnecting cable between the two cases.
> The thing had a half gig scsi drive and scsi tape (60 or 150mb).
> Alas, I was able only to make a quick glance at it, before I had to
> leave.  What might such a critter actually be?  It had half a dozen
> RS232 terminal lines out the back, and a wyse terminal sitting on top
> of the case.  It is not the kind of thing the PeeCee mongers are going
> to dive into, so it might go for a song if I wait a couple of weeks.
> It was not DEC badged, but definitely had what I would interpret as
> DEC boards inside.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jun  1 10:25:34 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:25:34 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS
Message-ID: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the
future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive.

For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally
I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the
Archive as that was my interest.

Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such
as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns
etc.

A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any
Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated
as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g
2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project).

I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society
(http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/), which would allow a number of groups
like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their
efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea.

Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11
stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a
mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it
goes off to /dev/null.

So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of
the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives,
mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned.

Questions:
	- should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives?

	- if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.)

	- if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you
	  consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could
	  sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella?

	- do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive,
	  mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could
	  point to?

	- do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'',
	  or would you rather have more specific lists?

One final comment before you answer. There's a very diverse bunch of
people on this mailing list, some with strong opinions. Please be prepared
to accept someone's comments as what they want, don't tell them that they
are wrong, but let us know what you'd like to see.

Many thanks,
	Warren

[ now stands back for the deluge! ]

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From wkb at chello.nl  Fri Jun  2 02:53:57 2000
From: wkb at chello.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:53:57 +0200
Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS
In-Reply-To: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 10:25:34AM +1000
References: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000601185357.E99044@freebie.wbnet>

On Thu, Jun 01, 2000 at 10:25:34AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:

> So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of
> the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives,
> mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned.
> 
> Questions:
> 	- should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives?

Multiple.

> 	- if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.)

I'd distinguish by CPU / machine / vendor. Eg. PDP, VAX, Sun68k, etc.
Maybe one should also distinguish by source code / binary-only. People like
David are mostly interested in the sources, which I think makes good sense.
But if you find yourself with an old box a binary kit sure beats no OS at
all.

> 	- do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'',
> 	  or would you rather have more specific lists?

Depends on the traffic. One could argue a generic 'announce' list and 
a set of platform dependent lists would be best. But maybe it is too early
to nail this down.

> One final comment before you answer. There's a very diverse bunch of
> people on this mailing list, some with strong opinions. Please be prepared
> to accept someone's comments as what they want, don't tell them that they
> are wrong, but let us know what you'd like to see.
> 
> Many thanks,
> 	Warren
> 
> [ now stands back for the deluge! ]

<splash> ;-)

-- 
Wilko Bulte 	FreeBSD, the power to serve  	http://www.freebsd.org


From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jun  3 11:58:50 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:58:50 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS
Message-ID: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Hi all,
	Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of
things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short
proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody
what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old
disagreements!

Thanks,
	Warren


	A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive
	==============================================================

Policy
------

The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group
specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform.

The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support
efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer
considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below.

Mechanism
---------

The pups at minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing
list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the
Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up.

As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up
for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more
people from each group will be the list maintainer.

If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these
groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project.

The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level
will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels
in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories
for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the
current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like
Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are.

If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive
will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space
for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things.
However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence.
In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts.


Volunteers & Mirrors
--------------------

Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not
wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative.
In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive.
For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps
this can be called the VAX Unix Archive.

I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that:

	+ specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry
	+ requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how
	  big each section is
	+ requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them


Copyright & License Issues
--------------------------

At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or
copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms
to ensure access by license holders will be preserved.

Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that
is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not
be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In
that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be
released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way
until that time.

A Personal Note
---------------

I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff
(including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set
up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone
who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing
lists associated with them.

It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings,
just in case I get hit by a bus or something.

Conclusion
----------

I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that
I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal
for future direction of PUPS and TUHS.

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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sat Jun  3 17:57:30 2000
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2000 08:57:30 +0100
Subject: Warren's Position on Future of PUPS/TUHS
In-Reply-To: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
References: <200006030158.LAA08504@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Q8wFPIAqpLO5Ew82@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <200006030158.LAA08504 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au> writes
>Hi all,
>       Well I've had a few comments back from people about the future of
>things on the PUPS & TUHS front. I've sat down & knocked up a short
>proposal which I'd be happy with. The overarching goal is to give everybody
>what they want :-) Anyway, send me comments and suggestions, or plain old
>disagreements!
>
>Thanks,
>       Warren
>
Sounds basically ok to me

Robin
>
>       A Discussion Paper on The Future of PUPS, TUHS and the Archive
>       ==============================================================
>
>Policy
>------
>
>The PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society (PUPS) goes back to being a group
>specifically focussed on the versions of Unix for the PDP-11 platform.
>
>The Unix Heritage Society (TUHS) will be an umbrella group to support
>efforts to preserve or maintain all versions of Unix that are no longer
>considered to be mainstream. The type of support is outlined below.
>
>Mechanism
>---------
>
>The pups at minnie mailing list will remain an ``all-encompassing'' mailing
>list for those people who are active in, or interested in, the aims of the
>Unix Heritage Society. It will be renamed to be tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>If enough people request it, a PUPS-specific mailing list will be set up.
>
>As part of TUHS aim of support, mailing lists on minnie can be set up
>for those groups who wish to come under the TUHS umbrella. One or more
>people from each group will be the list maintainer.
>
>If the information is not huge, minnie can offer web space for these
>groups, too. I'm already doing this for the Quasijarus project.
>
>The PUPS Archive will be renamed `The Unix Heritage Archive'. The top-level
>will contain files & information that is generic. There will be sublevels
>in the form platform/vendor/version. We might need some other categories
>for multi-platform systems like the 4BSDs. As an example, nearly all of the
>current archive will move under a PDP-11/ directory. But directories like
>Applications/ and Lists/ will stay where they are.
>
>If possible and where there are volunteers, each section of the archive
>will be maintained by its own maintainer. Minnie will provide disk space
>for all sections, so that there is a `one-stop' place to keep things.
>However, some groups may want to maintain a separate archive & existence.
>In this case, TUHS will set up pointers to their efforts.
>
>
>Volunteers & Mirrors
>--------------------
>
>Some of the existing volunteers and archive mirror maintainers may not
>wish to maintain a copy of the full TUHS archive. That's their perogative.
>In fact, it might be useful to `name' each section of the full archive.
>For example, someone might only want to mirror the VAX section. Perhaps
>this can be called the VAX Unix Archive.
>
>I can modify the mechanism of ordering archive copies so that:
>
>       + specific volunteers can nominate which archive sections they carry
>       + requesters can order specific sections, or all, and find out how
>         big each section is
>       + requests will only be sent to those volunteers who can do them
>
>
>Copyright & License Issues
>--------------------------
>
>At present, most things in the archive are protected by licenses and/or
>copyright. This probably isn't going to change soon. The current mechanisms
>to ensure access by license holders will be preserved.
>
>Given the aims of TUHS, I am prepared to keep in the archive anything that
>is Unix-related for antiquated or non-mainstream systems. We may not
>be able to release some of this due to license or copyright reasons. In
>that case, it will be kept hidden away in the archive until it can be
>released. It won't be mirrored or be available for copying in any way
>until that time.
>
>A Personal Note
>---------------
>
>I'd like to maintain the PDP-11 archive, and initially do the TUHS stuff
>(including web pages, mailing lists, top-level of the archive). I'll set
>up platform-specific (or other-specific) levels as long as there is someone
>who will volunteer to maintain that area, and any web pages and mailing
>lists associated with them.
>
>It would also be a good idea to have an understudy or two in the wings,
>just in case I get hit by a bus or something.
>
>Conclusion
>----------
>
>I'm sure there are other issues (especially implementation ones) that
>I've missed above, but hopefully you get the general idea of my proposal
>for future direction of PUPS and TUHS.

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue Jun  6 08:46:46 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 00:46:46 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
Message-ID: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Hi.

Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has
13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J
clone. I created a boot tape using a netbooted NetBSD 1.4.2 on this
machine. I dd-ed "stand", "miniroot" and "rootdump" onto a tape with
the blocksizes listed in the file "Rick_Copeland_Note". I also used
"maketape" from the 2.11BSD distribution. 
>>> b mua0

  2..1..0..


?06 HLT INST
    PC = 00074C1E
>>>
Every time the same. :-(

Do I make a mistake? Is my hardware not supported? Is there a other way
to get 4.3BSD-Reno instaled? (Puting a disklabel, ffs and data with
NetBSD onto the disk, but how to boot?) ???
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun  6 10:14:51 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 00 19:14:51 CDT
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
Message-ID: <0006060014.AA12823@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:

> Today I tried to install 4.3BSD-Reno on a MicroVAX II. The machine has
> 13MB RAM, DHV11, TK50, DELQA, one RD53 with RQDX3 and a Sigma DLV11-J
> clone.

4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, and won't fit on an RD53. The true 4.3BSD,
however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. Go to

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

to learn about the project and subscribe to its mailing list, then ask any
further questions there.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From emu at ecubics.com  Tue Jun  6 11:12:19 2000
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 19:12:19 -0600
Subject: profesional 350 & 380 
References: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350>

Hi all,

Any chance to get a unix running on them ?

cheers & thanks,
emanuel



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From djenner at halcyon.com  Tue Jun  6 13:50:14 2000
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 20:50:14 -0700
Subject: profesional 350 & 380
References: <200006052246.AAA20067@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350>
Message-ID: <393C74F6.A19267C0@halcyon.com>

There are at least two *NIXes that run on the Pro.

There are apparently patches for 2.9BSD available
that allow that version to run on the Pro.  I don't
have any experience with that.

There are two versions of Venix that run on the Pro.
  1) Venix/Pro came directly from Venturecom.
     It exists in Version 1 and Version 2.
  2) Pro/Venix came from DEC, but was a slight
     rework of Venix originally from Venturecom.
     I.e., DEC worked over Venix/Pro and issued a
     version itself called Pro/Venix.

Venix/Pro versions 1 and 2 are available from the
archives at ftp.update.uu.se.  This means, ostensibly,
that Venix/Pro is in the "public domain".  Pro/Venix
could also be in the public domain, subject to the
Ancient Unix License, since it originates from Version
7 and System III from AT&T.  Bob Supnick, who was at
DEC, once stated he saw no reason why it couldn't be
a part of the PUPS archive under the AU License.

I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix.  A couple of
the floppies are bad.  I would like to find a copy
of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more
flexible than Venix/Pro.  If anyone out there has
any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about
it.

Thanks,
Dave


emanuel stiebler wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Any chance to get a unix running on them ?
> 
> cheers & thanks,
> emanuel

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Tue Jun  6 16:01:20 2000
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:01:20 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: profesional 350 & 380 
In-Reply-To: <005b01bfcf54$49da50b0$5d01a8c0@p2350>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000606080102.2608A-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 5 Jun 2000, emanuel stiebler wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> Any chance to get a unix running on them ?

There is Venix. I even think it's free now...

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue Jun  6 18:36:49 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:36:49 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <0006060014.AA12823@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <200006060836.KAA24484@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On  6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:

> 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, 
This is what I was waiting for. ;-)

> and won't fit on an RD53. 
I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany...
And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very
hany. ;-)

> The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. 
Hmm. 

[jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z 
stand.Z: data
[jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand
uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format

The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive
mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. 

> Go to
> 
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted
to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The
version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape.
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Jun  7 00:11:23 2000
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 10:11:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: profesional 350 & 380
In-Reply-To: <393C74F6.A19267C0@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.1000606101021.17613A-100000@world.std.com>

> I have an incomplete set of Pro/Venix.  A couple of
> the floppies are bad.  I would like to find a copy
> of Pro/Venix that is installable, as it is more
> flexible than Venix/Pro.  If anyone out there has
> any Pro/Venix floppies, I'd be grateful to hear about
> it.
> 

I thought this one was up on uu.se site.  I got my copy from there years
ago.

Allison



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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Wed Jun  7 00:47:53 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 09:47:53 CDT
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
Message-ID: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:

> [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z=20
> stand.Z: data
> [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/t=
> mp/stand
> uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format

See

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html

> An other reason was: I wanted
> to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno.

4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all
traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been
built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is
CSRG in every other way.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Jun  7 02:16:53 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 18:16:53 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <200006061616.SAA25525@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On  6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:

> See
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html
Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? 
Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web
page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ???
The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a 
separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself 
uncompressed)." But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory
does not contain it.

> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
> the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. 
[...]
Is there some documentation available about this? 
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Wed Jun  7 03:19:48 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 12:19:48 CDT
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
Message-ID: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:

> Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? 

OK, I'll add one.

> Ehhh? And where to get the code? Why is there no hint to it on the web
> page? Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar ???

Yes.

> The Web-Page says: "The strong compression code is available as a 
> separate package in the BSD distribution archive (it is itself 
> uncompressed)."

Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
components/compress.tar is the right tarball...

> But the Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a directory
> does not contain it.

It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory
for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can
be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what
goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less.

> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
> > the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. 
> [...]
> Is there some documentation available about this? 

I have something along these lines on the front page of the Quasijarus project.
But sure, I should elaborate. I will when I respond to Warren's PUPS/TUHS reorg
thing, which I'm still procrastinating on. :-)

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From pzh at bia-bg.com  Wed Jun  7 03:36:05 2000
From: pzh at bia-bg.com (Peter Zhivkov)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 20:36:05 +0300 (EET DST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <0006061447.AA13729@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000606203205.16815A-100000@mmail.bia-bg.com>



On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Michael Sokolov wrote:

> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is more original CSRG than 4.3BSD-Reno. Reno doesn't follow
> the True UNIX line of V1 thru V7 thru 4.3BSD, Quasijarus does. Reno breaks all
> traditional CSRG ideology and is not CSRG in any way other than having been
> built in Evans Hall. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus hasn't been built in Evans Hall, but is
> CSRG in every other way.
>

people, please administer proper dosage...and do not let patients out
of the boundaries of the asylum...
 
> --
> Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
> Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
> 			International Engineering and Science Task Force
> 			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
> 			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA
> 
> Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
> E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)
> 
> 

P.S. please take me off the quasijarus list


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From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Wed Jun  7 05:06:40 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:06:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <200005261407.AAA44464@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the
old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple
enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of
UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my
precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is
409,600 bytes):

	$ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
	800+0 records in
	800+0 records out
	$ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
	800+0 records in
	800+0 records out
	$ diff testrx50.img test
	Binary files testrx50.img and test differ

WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around,
I recall the following Additional Facts:
  - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks -
available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in
re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest
that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE])
usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors.
  - Disks formatted with the aforementioned Custom Hardware (a Shaffstall
6000 media conversion system, for the curious) for a) DEC Rainbow, b)
RT-11, and c) DECmate II, seem to work flawlessly, at the physical level,
but exhibit the below-mentioned quirks, logically.

I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_
high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly
under RSX-11.

Also:
  - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
itself as read-only, even for root.
  - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific
circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical
interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an
interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't
sat down and done it, not that I don't know how).

Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
little slice 'o heaven?

And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field
service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to
understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on
a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation?

Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
for the archive?

JasoMill



From wkb at chello.nl  Wed Jun  7 05:37:24 2000
From: wkb at chello.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 21:37:24 +0200
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>; from jasomill@shaffstall.com on Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500
References: <200005261407.AAA44464@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <20000606213724.A1789@freebie.wbnet>

On Tue, Jun 06, 2000 at 02:06:40PM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote:

> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
> for the archive?

I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. 

-- 
Wilko Bulte  	FreeBSD, the power to serve  	http://www.freebsd.org
						http://www.nlfug.nl

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Wed Jun  7 05:38:29 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:38:29 -0400
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com>

>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD?

Yeah, sure.

> I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
<dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks); so, back to the
>old '11 for another round of test-disk making. My test data was simple
>enough: 512 bytes of 16-bit unsigned integer one, followed by 512 bytes of
>UINT16 2, usw. to UINT16 800; the easier to figure out the interleave, my
>precious... But I didna even get that far: observe (testrx50.img is
>409,600 bytes):
>
>	$ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
>	800+0 records in
>	800+0 records out
>	$ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
>	800+0 records in
>	800+0 records out
>	$ diff testrx50.img test
>	Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?

No, it shouldn't, but I'm confused as to where you're doing this at.
Is this on FreeBSD?

>Also:
>  - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
>no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
>from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
>due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
>itself as read-only, even for root.

This must have something to do with the 2.11BSD disk label.  The raw
character device should be writable, can you try rm'ing the appropriate
entries and remaking them with /dev/MAKEDEV?

Also note that you may have to issue a disklabel command to make it
possible for you to clobber the sectors where the disk label would otherwise
live.

>  - The remaining data sometimes (but not always; the specific
>circumstances involved I have not yet figured out conclusively -- physical
>interleave, preexisting data (!), or, something else?) carries an
>interleave, though I admit I haven't figured it out yet (meaning I haven't
>sat down and done it, not that I don't know how).

Yes, there is a physical<->logical block interleave on the RX50.  See, for
example, John Wilson's PUTR source code ( at ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/putr/
- assuming that ftp.dbit.com is back up by now!) for details and
example code.

>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3.

That's true, the RQDX3 takes care of all that.  If you look at any DEC
Professional RX50 driver source code, you'll see the interleave code in there.
For example, from RT-11's DZ.MAC sources:

;
; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.

("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)

and later, in a breathtaking example of tight driver interleave code
(really, study it very closely, this is good stuff!):

; Normal I/O, convert block number to track and sector number and interleave
;
        ASL     R2              ;Make word count unsigned byte count
        MOV     (PC)+,R4        ;Loop count for 8 bit division
         .BYTE  -7.,-10.        ;Count becomes 0, -10 in high byte for later
50$:    CMP     #1280.,R5       ;Does 10 go into dividend (10.*200)?
        BHI     60$             ;Branch if not, C-bit clear
        ADD     #-1280.,R5      ;Subtract 10 from dividend, and set C-bit
                                ;(10.*200)
60$:    ROL     R5              ;Shift dividend and quotient
        INCB    R4              ;Decrement loop count
        BLE     50$             ;Branch until divide done
        MOVB    R5,R1           ;Copy track number 0:79, zero extend
        ADD     R4,R5           ;Make sector < 0
        MOV     R1,R4           ;Copy track number
        ASL     R1              ;Multiply by 2 (skew)
70$:    SUB     #10.,R1         ;Reduce track number * 2 MOD 10
        BGT     70$             ; to find offset for this track, -10:0
        MOV     R1,TRKOFF       ;Save it
        BR      100$            ;Go save parameters and start

>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33? Does this void my field service contract, as my field
>service engineer is growing bored with staying up all night trying to
>understand funky DEC floppy hardware, as Parts currently has Guinness on
>a 180-day lead and it is a neccessary part of such an operation?

The DEC RX33 floppy drive *is* a TEAC FD55GFR, also commonly found
on PC-clones.

Not just *any* HD AT floppy drive will work.  Not only does it need
to support the drive select jumpers, it also needs a bit more jumper
configurability.  The exact jumper settings vary depending on which
exact FD55 model and revision you're using.  As of a few months
ago many of the jumper setting legends were decoded on the spec sheets
you could get from TEAC's faxback service.

The standard reference on this subject for the past decade has been
Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
from

  ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt

Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Wed Jun  7 05:59:51 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:59:51 -0400
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <000606155951.20200e60@trailing-edge.com>

>> Wonder what DEC would think of allowing (providing?) old PDP hardware docs
>> for the archive?

>I'm afraid you'd have to ask Mentec. 

No, Mentec doesn't (generally) own the rights to those.  Mentec owns the
rights to several former DEC OS's, most notably RT-11, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E, and many of the corresponding layered products.  But they
don't even own all the former DEC PDP-11 software; for instance, they
don't have XXDP, DOS-11, PAL-11, etc...

Of probable interest to many of the readers of this mailing list,
Mentec is gearing up to offer a hobbyist license for the RT, RSX-11M, RSX-11M+,
and RSTS/E.  Note, in particular, that there is a "PDP-11 Hobbyist" link
on Mentec's page at

  http://www.mentec.com/mentecinc/default.asp

The link is currently disabled, but I expect it'll be active in the next
week or so.

Tim.

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From rivie at teraglobal.com  Wed Jun  7 06:12:14 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:12:14 -0600
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
References:  <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <v0421010eb563058aacb7@[10.10.50.26]>

>Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
>patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)
>diskettes, and noticed what seemed to be some sort of logical sector
>interleave (I also have hardware that does physical diskette reads /
>dumps, which assured me that I was getting the physical data off the disk
>in the order prescribed by the sector ID address marks);

Yes, there is a software interleave on RX50 diskettes. It also varies 
from system
to system; I'm pretty certain PDP-11s and VAXes use the same software 
interleave
(otherwise you couldn't exchange diskettes between a Pro350 and a MicroVAX II),
but the DECmate II and III use a different software interleave. I 
have a memo here
somewhere; it's getting a bit faded, perhaps I should do an underground HTML
translation of it... Ah yes, here it is:

DEC format supported by RQDX controller (this is 1984, so the only 
RQDX controller
is RQDX1 at the time) used by Pro300, Micro-PDPs, MicroVAX I:

- 10 sectors per track
- 2 for 1 interleaving with 3 to 1 intercylinder skew
- Physical track # = (LBN/10) + 1 with wraparound to track 0 [IOW, logical
   track 0 is physical track 1 and physical track 0 is logical track 79]
- Physical sector # = X ( m ) where m = LBN mod 50, n = m/10, c = m mod 10:

        |c=0|c=1|c=2|c=3|c=4|c=5|c=6|c=7|c=8|c=9|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
     n=0| 01| 03| 05| 07| 09| 02| 04| 06| 08| 10|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
     n=1| 03| 05| 07| 09| 01| 04| 06| 08| 10| 02|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
     n=2| 05| 07| 09| 01| 03| 06| 08| 10| 02| 04|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
     n=3| 07| 09| 01| 03| 05| 08| 10| 02| 04| 06|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
     n=4| 09| 01| 03| 05| 07| 10| 02| 04| 06| 08|
     ---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+

DECmates and Rainbows don't use an intercylinder skew. Rainbows have the
whacky logical track wrapping while DECmates don't.

Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
with it, unless you're foolishly trying to read DECmate or Rainbow disks
on an RQDX3, at which point you need to carefully figure out how the lack
of intercylinder skew on the DECmates interacts with the cylinder skew
on the RQDX3.

I know the RQDX3 implements the soft interleave because I did the firmware
for Digital's SCSI floppy controller. I maintained that the device driver
should deal with the interleave because it varies from format to format and
the SCSI controller can't tell whether a particular RX50 is a DECmate RX50
or a VAX RX50. VMS didn't want to deal with the soft interleave because they
don't have to on the RQDX3. I lost the fight and had to go back into the
SCSI controller and rev the firmware to deal with the soft interleave.

>	$ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
>	800+0 records in
>	800+0 records out
>	$ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
>	800+0 records in
>	800+0 records out
>	$ diff testrx50.img test
>	Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
>
>WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?

No, it shouldn't, at least AFAIK.

> In my late-night screwings-around,
>I recall the following Additional Facts:
>  - Disks formatted with my PC floppy drive (using my kernel hacks -
>available on request [although until I get them working, no guarantees in
>re: their applicability to this or any other use; although I will attest
>that they won't make your kernel crash, at least not in 4.0-STABLE])
>usually work okay, but sometimes give hard errors.

This shouldn't be a problem. There are some potential difficulties
involving the gap lengths; IIRC it's possible to format floppies that
work on a PC but don't work with the HDC 9224 used on the RQDX3 because
the 9224 requires a little bit more time to clean itself up in one of
the gaps. Unfortunately, I don't recall the details; this was all a long
time ago. I think it involves the gap between the header and data fields of
a sector, but don't hold me to that.

>I'll note at this point that the media I'm using is 3M DS/DD 96tpi (_not_
>high density), and disks formatted with the 6000 (RT-11) worked perfectly
>under RSX-11.

That's good. You should not be using high-density disks.

>Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
>all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
>above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this
>little slice 'o heaven?

What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to write
and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.

>And, er, _really_ finally, is it really true that I can put any HD AT
>drive (well, any one that sports DS jumpers) on the RQDX3 and it'll
>function as an RX33?

The DEC drive changes speed based on the head write current signal of
the interface. AT drives don't change speed; the data separator on an
AT controller runs at 300KHz for low-density instead of 250KHz to deal
with that little slice o' heaven. If you stick any HD AT drive on an
RQDX3, you may be able to read high-density disks, but you probably will
not be able to read low-density disks (i.e., RX50s).

Oh yeah. Since the DEC drives change speed, that means there's an extra
little slice o' heaven in the floppy support code to wait for the drive
to change speed when the density changes. Are you _sure_ you want
documentation for that little slice o' heaven?

--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Wed Jun  7 06:20:52 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:20:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever
In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 06, 2000 12:19:48 PM
Message-ID: <200006062020.QAA04660@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
> components/compress.tar is the right tarball...

I had the same problems, so pleeze, put a biggie readme at all appropriate
tree levels that has a 2 liner about the must use the ``new'' compress,
and where exactly to find it.

It was not quite intuitively obvious.....(:+}}...to my RT toy....until
I unrolled it there.

When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........

They yearn for the simplicity of a plain 4.3BSD.....that runs fine on
my old dinosaur RT toy.....(:+}}......  Anyone else running RT toyz?

Thanks

Bob


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From rivie at teraglobal.com  Wed Jun  7 06:21:22 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 14:21:22 -0600
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com>
References: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <v0421010fb5630d5a828e@[10.10.50.26]>

Tim Shoppa said:
>;
>; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
>; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.

Well, that disagrees with this memo right here which specifies a 3:1
interleave. It's hard to argue with code, though, and since I don't have
my 8051 code for the SCSI floppy controller handy, I'll have to believe
Tim on this one.

--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Wed Jun  7 06:30:26 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 16:30:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RT confusedness....
In-Reply-To: <000606153829.20200e60@trailing-edge.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Jun 06, 2000 03:38:29 PM
Message-ID: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> ; In standard RT-PC mode, a 2:1 interleave is used on a single track and
> ; a 2 sector skew is used across tracks.
> 
> ("RT-PC" means "RT-11 on a DEC Professional", roughly!)

Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}...
It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure
a few of us have played with over the years.  It's a prime candidate for
the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides
with me.  Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter?

......


> Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
> from
> 
>   ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
> 
> Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
> to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?

Yes, I would like to see Warren mirror such things, as space and utility
dictate.  Sometimes some redundancy in these forgotten lores is good.
I am sure there are other such docs and texts of wisdom that collectively
we should centralize in the archives, space, copyrights, permissions, etc.,
to be worked out in some way.  At least, link to the urls, as long as the
urls don't break.

Bob

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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Jun  7 07:56:56 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 23:56:56 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <0006061719.AA14055@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <200006062156.XAA26340@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On  6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:

>> Ahhh! Why is there no note in the distribution directory? 
> OK, I'll add one.
A litle note like:
Look at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/compress.html to see how
to decompress the files. 
in the FORMAT file can save much time if you are a Quasijarus beginner. 
Or a Link "HOWTO install Quasijarus" with a note about the compress
issue, creating tapes, ... on the Quasijarus main page will do the job
also. 

> Hmm, I thought this was enough info for folks to figure out that
> components/compress.tar is the right tarball...
Again. "Look at Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar" can save
time...

> It's in the components directory, as opposed to the tape distribution directory
> for any particular release, because it's a grabbed-out BSD component that can
> be used with any release. The tape distribution directories have exactly what
> goes on the tape in the format it goes there, nothing more, nothing less.
Ahh. I did not know this. 

ARGL! Now my TK50 died! Sh..., fu..., [other censored stuff] 
What have we learned now? Kids, do not dismount the optical positioner
at the back of a TK50 drive for cleaning! GRMBL.
OK. Tomorrow is a new day, new luck. I will mount the TK50Z in the MVII
and I will give Quasijarus a try. If Quasijarus also fails, the BA23 box
will stay inactive until I get a working, 2.11BSD capable PDP11 CPU. 
-- 



a guts Nächtle,
	         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jun  7 07:57:16 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 07:57:16 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu" at "Jun 6, 2000  4:30:26 pm"
Message-ID: <200006062157.HAA32202@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu:
> > Terry Kennedy's THIRD-PARTY-DISKS.TXT, available via anonymous FTP
> > from
> > 
> >   ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt
> > 
> > Since this subject comes up several times a year, would it be possible
> > to link to the above document from somewhere in the PUPS archive, Warren?

I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were Unix-related.
Notwithstanding that comment, if there's enough disk space, why not.
However, it would have to be in an area which was marked as generic information.

Ciao,
	Warren

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jun  7 08:23:20 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:23:20 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <020401bfd004$d7ee0490$5d01a8c0@p2350> from emanuel stiebler at "Jun 6, 2000  4:16:14 pm"
Message-ID: <200006062223.IAA32518@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by emanuel stiebler:
> > I'd prefer to not put things into the archive unless they were
> Unix-related.
> Why not an pointer to the ftp archive ?
> If something changes there, we're updated. So we have to keep track of the
> changes :-(

Pointers would go on the web pages (that's easy). Real files in the Archive :-)

As part of the division of things into system/platform-specific and
Unix-generic areas, I'm updating the Unix Heritage Society web pages.
A preview is at http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/tuhs/

We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group?
David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space,
archive area, mail list as required.

The web page above is the place to put pointers to hardware information
and other useful stuff, unless that has already been done by an affiliated
group. So start sending me URLs :-)

The existing pups at minnie mail list will become the tuhs at minnie list. A
new pups at minnie list will be created for PDP-11 specific stuff. Next week
sometime.

In a month say, I'll reorganise the structure of the PUPS Archive, and
rename it as the Unix Archive. If you have mirrors, don't worry I'll
e-mail out a shell script with lots of mkdir and mv commands in it :-)

Cheers,
	Warren

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jun  7 08:49:14 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:49:14 +1000 (EST)
Subject: VAX group in TUHS?
In-Reply-To: <393D9CE9.533EFA0E@openecs.org> from chris at "Jun 7, 2000  2:52:57 am"
Message-ID: <200006062249.IAA32738@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by chris:
> I really like to help starting a VAX Unix archive. My VAX11/750 is bored by
> NetBSD and want's to try out some other "real" UNIX.
> So this might be a great chance.
> 
> Regards - Chris

At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the
archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project. Michael, do you want
to continue to do this? Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for
someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work?

Cheers,
	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jun  7 08:45:02 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <200006062245.PAA01871@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

	Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
	get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;))

> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
> Does anyone have experience using the RX50 floppy drive under 2.11BSD? I
> patched my FreeBSD kernel to handle RX50-format (80 cyl / 1 hd / 10 sec)

	Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally
	got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb
	5.25" Teac "PC" drive).

> 	$ dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
> 	800+0 records in
> 	800+0 records out
> 	$ dd if=/dev/ra12a of=test
> 	800+0 records in
> 	800+0 records out
> 	$ diff testrx50.img test
> 	Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
> 
> WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it? In my late-night screwings-around,

	No, in fact I'd have expected an error on the first 'dd'.

	Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are.   If they are only
	in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I
	know what the problem might be.

	I'd also, not that it would make any difference (I hope), use the
	raw device for speed purposes (RX50 is slow enough as it is ;)):

		dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/rra12a

>   - The '11/2.11BSD never seem to write the first two sectors, although
> no error is returned to this effect; in fact, the data in sector three is
> from offset 1024 in the input data (0x0003 in the above example). Is this
> due to disk label support or something? The raw (character) device reports
> itself as read-only, even for root.

	Indeed it is related to disklabel support.  In the face of a missing
	or corrupt disklabel the kernel is supposed (and I think it is in this
	case) synthesize a label that spans the entire disk with the 'a'
	partition. 

	I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the
	synthetic label is being used.  It's probably a bug having to deal
	with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label
	is being used.  Sigh.   I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try
	to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks.

	The first sector should have been written (that's the boot block), the
	label sector is the 2nd sector and that's 'write protected' unless
	either an ioctl() is done or the 'disklabel' program is used to
	un-writeprotect it.

	Try doing a 

		disklabel -W /dev/rra12a

	to enable writing the label sector.  If that works then the problem
	lies in not setting that bit when a corrupt/missing label is seen.

	Normally this isn't necessary since filesystems are created on disks
	and they're not treated as raw output bitcontainers.  Floppies are
	special in that 'raw' device usage is more common.

> Finally, I noticed there is no floppy-specific code in the MSCP driver, so
> all the gory details of floppy control (along with the gory details of the
> above) must be dealt with by the RQDX3. Anybody got documentation for this

	Quite so.  To the driver the RX50 is just another MSCP disk.  

	Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
	messages with the 'sysctl' command:

		sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X

		where X is a bitmask (at present only the first 4 bits are in
		use).   Setting X to 15 will enable every printf the driver
		has.  

 * Bit 0 = print/log all non successful response packets
 * Bit 1 = print/log datagram arrival
 * Bit 2 = print status of all response packets _except_ for datagrams
 * Bit 3 = enable debug/log statements not covered by one of the above

	See the pdpuba/ra.c sources for more details, and what printf/log
	statements are covered by which bit.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Wed Jun  7 09:39:23 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 00 18:39:23 CDT
Subject: VAX group in TUHS?
Message-ID: <0006062339.AA14868@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Warren Toomey <wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:

> At present, Michael Sokolov looks after the 4BSD VAX section of the
> archive under the aegis of the Quasijarus project.

Yes.

> Michael, do you want to continue to do this?

Yes.

> Or should we separate the historical 4BSDs for
> someone to curate while you manage the ongoing Quasijarus work?

No, I do not and will not separate these.

Warren, can we talk about all this sometime later, leaving the affected areas
intact for now? I'm *really* swamped right now.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jun  7 16:09:07 2000
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 08:09:07 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006061323100.5676-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000607080633.9260B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 6 Jun 2000, Jason T. Miller wrote:

[...floppy stuff on 2.11 deleted...]

> 	$ diff testrx50.img test
> 	Binary files testrx50.img and test differ
> 
> WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?

Well... No... But...

You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it
don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result. the first
1K are probably very different. Try to compare everything after that 1K
and see if that is the same.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Thu Jun  8 01:36:43 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:43 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: New Compress -- needs bigger info flag readme whatever
In-Reply-To: <200006062020.QAA04660@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200006071536.RAA01882@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On  6 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:

> When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
> Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........
NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it
is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a
good OS, free, modern, ...
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Thu Jun  8 02:50:10 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 11:50:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000607080633.9260B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071140500.6407-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

After looking at the data, I'm not suprised, either -- I've proven, if
nothing else, that the 'diff' command is not broken :) This command
seek-whence was for illusutrative purposes; by far the strangest thing to
me is the Interleave Problem. First R/W UNIX block device I've ever seen
that's not bijective (to slightly abuse the term).

-jtm

On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> > WHOA! This shouldn't happen, should it?
> 
> Well... No... But...
> 
> You later note that 2.11 don't write the first two sectors, even though it
> don't give you any errors. So, I'm not surprised by the result.


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From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Thu Jun  8 03:15:53 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:15:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <200006062245.PAA01871@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071150180.6407-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

> 	Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should
> 	get back into it (too many other projects, etc and so little time ;))
It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of
the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with.
Every programmer who writes 150MB bloatware should study it.

> 	Not for eons - the RX50 I had was so flakey (well, actually it finally
> 	got to the point it was declared broke) it was replaced with a 1.2mb
> 	5.25" Teac "PC" drive).
I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken
(won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got
a few Toshibas and Matsushitas I'm gonna fool around with, though. Though
I find that about 90% of what I learn about everything computer related
involves one thing or another that doesn't work; so in a way I can thank
DEC for screwball H/W. About 10 YA, I used a DECmate II with an RX50 on a
daily basis, and had 0 problems; of course, I had preformatted DEC disks
and no interchange (at the time I had two computers -- an Atari 130XE and
DECmate II)

> 	Using 'cmp -l' will show where the differences are.   If they are only
> 	in the first couple sectors but the rest compare ok then I think I
> 	know what the problem might be.

Some is, some ain't. Aside from the also-mentioned "interleave problem,"
whereby the RX50 seems to interleave output data (isn't the hardware
supposed to take care of this, if it is indeed hardware interleave, 
though I'm 95% sure I formatted 1:1...yes, unless the RQDX3 is unlike
_every_ floppy controller I've seen in the past ten years)

> 	I do not know why the first two sectors are not being written if the
> 	synthetic label is being used.  It's probably a bug having to deal
> 	with not setting the "enable write for label area" when the fake label
> 	is being used.  Sigh.   I have a floppy drive on my 11/73 - I'll try
> 	to find time and play around before going on vacation in a couple weeks.

I, also, although I'm not going on vacation in the near future, and I
don't have an 11/73 -- but, I suppose if I can find time to play with my
PDP @ all (which I suppose I have -- it's now, courtesy of Network Address
Translation and SLIP, not only connected to my Apartment Network, but also
to the Internet. Now to find a Web browser that fits in 64K I space or
segments well. Is CERN line-mode still being maintaned?), I'll work on
this. I hope to be able to use the RX50 for sneakernet purposes, despite
my network connection, as 19.2K is pretty damned slow, and while I'm
excited at the prospect of diviplexing SLIP over all 40 ports on all five
of my muxes, I'm somewhat less excited at the prospect of designing and
coding it; besides, I only have three serial ports on my PC, and one's for
the modem). Though Priority One is getting my LA75 working -- once again
It Worked In RSX (much better than I did, I might add :).

> 	Try doing a 
> 
> 		disklabel -W /dev/rra12a
>
> 	Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
> 	messages with the 'sysctl' command:
> 
> 		sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
> 

I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool.

-jtm


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From griffioena at psi.com  Thu Jun  8 04:50:39 2000
From: griffioena at psi.com (Arno Griffioen)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:50:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: RT confusedness....
In-Reply-To: <200006062030.QAA05591@uni00du.unity.ncsu.edu> from "rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu"
 at "Jun 6, 2000 04:30:26 pm"
Message-ID: <200006071850.UAA26525@superluminal.usn.nl>

> Gee, let's not forget the old IBM RT-PC dinosaur.....(:+}}...
> It was an entirely different beastie by the same name, that I am sure
> a few of us have played with over the years.  It's a prime candidate for
> the UHS style fodder, if there were any interest in the thing besides
> with me.  Anyone else aboard play with that dinosaur critter?

Yup.. But only with 4.3BSD on it.

The assembly mnemonics stil crack me up. Seems like IBM somehow
misunderstood 'RISC' for Reduced Mnemonics.

The comments inserted in assembly code by the C compiler gave some
indication of the brokenness of the CPU.. Lots of NOP's added in several
places with remarks like "Add NOPs, otherwise register contents will be wrong".

But hey...

Before that I was used to working with 40 students on a uVAX 3600
(which I now own and run :-), so to me these RT's were pretty darn
quick!

Still would like to get my grubby paws on one though. Somehow this 
collection of old UNIX machines is becoming an obsession :-)

								Bye, Arno.

-- 
PSINetworks Europe           Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34               Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands |   *  Musical Interlude  *      | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------

 We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
 With a Cast-Iron fist!                  (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Thu Jun  8 06:07:58 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:07:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RQDX3 software interleave
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

> Yes, the RQDX3 is supposed to do this for you so you don't have to deal
> with it, ...
I guess I should have sat down and thought about it, I never even
considered the hardware doing software interleave (quite a dumb thing to
do, IMHO, unless you want to sell preformatted diskettes for use in
systems with widely varying performance characteristics; who would want to
do that :). Thanks, Herr Ivie, for that insight. Also thanks to SMS for
the disklabel enlightenment. I should have a workable solution soon,
though doing the interleave code in 4.4BSD kernelland doesn't seem like
much fun and would reduce the general applicability of the driver (I'd
like to see what the FreeBSD committers would think when I suggest
_that_!); I think I'll just write an "interleave filter" in userland and
leave it at that.

> What sort of info are you looking for? Floppy drivers are a PITA to
write
> and you should be happy the RQDX3 is hiding it from you.
Don't get me wrong, I _am_ happy. I like smart hardware as long as it
doesn't try to second-guess me; I'm a big fan of SCSI. Just a natural
and (usually, but not always) healty curiousity. And I know how much
fun floppy drivers are to write; one of the products developed by my
employer (though before I was thus employed) was a disk conversion system.
And we even used one of the more "intelligent" floppy controllers, an
experimental TI 9909 that handled "pretty much everything" for you (as
long as "pretty much everything" involved writing single-density IBM 8"
diskettes -- reminds me of the line in Raising Arizona, when N. Cage asks
the cashier if he has balloons in funny shapes and he replies: "if you
think a circle is a funny shape"). So I have the source code to a floppy
driver that handles almost any disk type imaginable (as long as the
data rate isn't too high: 2.88MB disks zum beispiel), all written in
assembler and PLM for an 8085; talk about tight code. Speaking of PITA
device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
single density and data in DD?

Once again, thanks for everyone for all the help. I'll have this thing
working soon.

-jtm


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From rivie at teraglobal.com  Thu Jun  8 06:54:01 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:54:01 -0600
Subject: RQDX3 software interleave
In-Reply-To:  <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
References:  <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006071443590.6772-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <v04210100b564661bc3fe@[10.10.50.26]>

> Speaking of PITA
>device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
>single density and data in DD?

Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that
would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to
do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine
or format floppies you don't have to worry about it.

--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Thu Jun  8 07:36:19 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:36:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <200006071536.RAA01882@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de" at Jun 07, 2000 05:36:43 PM
Message-ID: <200006072136.RAA29103@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> > When will scsi development proceed.... I have this scsi VAX sitting........
> > Actually several VS3100, uV3100, things..... sitting.........

> NetBSD-current runs well on VAXstations 3100 and 4000m{60,90}. OK, it
> is no pure BSD in Michaels sense and it is not that lean. But it is a
> good OS, free, modern, ...

True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters (minor VAXen, MIPSen, Sun68ken,
etc.) in my basement.  But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of
a 4.3BSD.  I once sat down and loaded up 4.3Tahoe, 4.3Reno, 4.4, 4.4Lite2
(mostly) on my RT's, and you could really tell the difference as the bloat
transcended out of the 4.3 arena.  On a 12.5 mhz box, you can feel the
difference (what about a MVII at its liesurely pace?).  So, I do think
it would be a reasonable effort to keep something like a tiny 4.3 system
afloat for the older and the newer toyz.  Whether or not it is practical,
or we have the time to do that... who knows....  mebbie, at least for some
historical play.

I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old
toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}...

Bob


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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Thu Jun  8 07:54:44 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:54:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hardware info in Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <200006062223.IAA32518@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jun 07, 2000 08:23:20 AM
Message-ID: <200006072154.RAA00453@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> We need more affiliated groups! Bob, you want to lead an IBM group?
> David, how about an encumbered BSD group? Minnie will provide web space,
> archive area, mail list as required.

What sort of interest do we have in doing something like this?

IF the interest was there, I could probably make some time to chair an
IBM RT related group.  So far it seems about half a dozen folks were
interested in the RT things.  Let's see where it goes.....

Bob


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From apgarcia at hackaholic.org  Thu Jun  8 07:58:58 2000
From: apgarcia at hackaholic.org (A. P. Garcia)
Date: 07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000
Subject: unix precursors
Message-ID: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics,
but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
unix?

Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS.  I think that
Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as
rare as chicken teeth.  I think he also wrote an earlier journal
article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate.

Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its
current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System.  That is the one and
only thing I have ever heard about this system.  Anyone know where I
can learn more?


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From root at gits.dyndns.org  Thu Jun  8 08:14:46 2000
From: root at gits.dyndns.org (Cyrille Lefevre)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:14:46 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.3BSD-Reno install on MicroVAX II
In-Reply-To: <200006060836.KAA24484@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> "from jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
 at Jun 6, 2000 10:36:49 am"
Message-ID: <200006072214.AAA04762@gits.dyndns.org>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> On  6 Jun, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> 
> > 4.3BSD-Reno is spoiled and bloated, 
> This is what I was waiting for. ;-)
> 
> > and won't fit on an RD53. 
> I have a Dilog DQ686 MCSP ESDI controler with three 320MB disks hany...
> And a QD33 with two 9" 940MB SMD disks. But these disks are nor very
> hany. ;-)
> 
> > The true 4.3BSD however, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, will. 
> Hmm. 
> 
> [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ file stand.Z 
> stand.Z: data
> [jkunz at MissSophie 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0a]$ uncompress -c stand.Z > /bigtmp/tmp/stand
> uncompress: stand.Z: Inappropriate file type or format
> 
> The same for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0. This is my local PUPS / TUHS archive
> mirror, rsynced last week. MissSophie is a i386 box with NetBSD 1.4.2. 

you have to use the "Quasijarus" compress which is, in the
pups archive, Distributions/4bsd/components/compress.tar.

> > Go to
> > 
> > http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
>
> Been there, sounds good, but see above... An other reason was: I wanted
> to install some "original" CSRG stuff. So I took 4.3BSD-Reno. The
> version in the archive is complete and supports my CPU/disk/tape.

Cyrille.
--
home: mailto:clefevre at citeweb.net work: mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre at edf.fr

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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Thu Jun  8 08:21:04 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 00:21:04 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <200006072136.RAA29103@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200006072221.AAA02836@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On  7 Jun, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:

> True, and I run about a dozen NetBSD critters 
Ahh. I thought that you did not know about the new (puh, it is more
than 1/2 year old) developements in DMA SCSI on VAXstations...

> But, I still do like the simple minded leanness of a 4.3BSD. 
...as I do like the leanness of NetBSD on i386...
I dont like this bloated, i386 centric wants-to-be-*ix from Finland...
Hmmm. And my TK50 is broken so I can not get 4.3BSD on my MVII without
slaughtering my TK50Z... :-(

> I do like the new scsi drivers in NetBSD VAX, though... it makes the old
> toyz fly like the wind.....(:+}}...
Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
This is pure luxury. 

I think we are moving more and more away from the sbject of this list.
EOT
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Thu Jun  8 08:46:55 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 00 17:46:55 CDT
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
Message-ID: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:

> Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> This is pure luxury.=20

And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.

Long live Original UNIX in 4 capitals! Let's reopen the Soviet factories, build
new 11/780s with the hammer and sickle on every chip, put the real UNIX on
them, and send pee sea-raised revisionists to gulag!

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From enf at pobox.com  Thu Jun  8 08:50:45 2000
From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:50:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: unix precursors
In-Reply-To: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com>

> Thompson mentions that unix borrows heavily from CTSS.  I think that
> Corbato wrote a book on this system, but that book seems nearly as
> rare as chicken teeth.  I think he also wrote an earlier journal
> article on the system, which I imagine shouldn't be hard to locate.

The journal article you're thinking of is probably "An Experimental
Time Sharing System" by Corbato, Merwin-Daggett, and Daley, which
describes an early version of the system (where command arguments
were still separated by vertical bars instead of spaces).  AFIPS
Conference Proceedings vol. 21, 1962.

The book is _The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A User's Guide_,
which was published in two editions in, I think, 1963 and 1965,
by MIT Press.  Both editions are in enough libraries you should
be able to get them by interlibrary loan.  The first edition is
more booklike, the second is more like a collection of man pages.

The Charles Babbage Institute has copies of some of the on-line
updates to the manual (on paper) from after the second edition
was published.

You will see many similarities to Unix.  The arguments to tar,
for instance, come straight from the CTSS "ARCHIV" command.

> Finally, Thompson also mentions that fork() basically existed in its
> current form in the Berkeley Timesharing System.  That is the one and
> only thing I have ever heard about this system.  Anyone know where I
> can learn more?

You can find out some things about it from Butler Lampson's "A User
Machine in a Time-Sharing System," at

  http://www.research.microsoft.com/lampson/02-UserMachine/Abstract.html

Dennis Ritchie cites a real manual for the system in the references for

  http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html

but I haven't been able to locate a copy, even in the library at
the University of California, Berkeley.  I've read somewhere that
the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing
system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located
on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been
written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run
the software it describes.

eric

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From pdub at accesscom.com  Thu Jun  8 09:36:42 2000
From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:36:42 -0700
Subject: unix precursors
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <393EDC8A.237C8423@accesscom.com>

"A. P. Garcia" wrote:

> does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
> unix?

On CTSS:

F. J. Corbato et al.
"An Experimental Time-Sharing System"
Proceedings of the AFIPS, SJCC 1962, vol 21, pp 335-344.

P. A. Crisman
The Compatible Time-Sharing System: A Programmer's Guide, 2nd ed.
MIT Press, 1965.

On the Berkeley Timesharing System:

W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle
"A Facility for Experimentation in Man-Machine Interaction"
Proceedings of the AFIPS, FJCC 1965, vol 27, pp 185-196.

B. W. Lampson, W.W. Lichtenberger and M. W. Pirtle
"A User Machine in a Time-Sharing System"
Proceedings of the IEEE, vol 54 no 12 (Dec. 1966), pp 1766-1774.

This last paper is reprinted in Chapter 24 of:

C. Gordon Bell and Allen Newell
Computer Structures: Readings and Examples
Mc-Graw Hill, 1971

and this *entire* book is online at
"http://www.research.microsoft.com/~gbell/Computer_Structures__Readings_and_Examples/contents.html"
(the URL needs to be all on one line to cut and paste into your
browser).

Happy reading :)
Paul

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From pdub at accesscom.com  Thu Jun  8 12:27:45 2000
From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West)
Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 19:27:45 -0700
Subject: unix precursors
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com>
Message-ID: <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com>

Eric Fischer wrote:
> 
> I've read somewhere that
> the system is supposed to be similar to the PDP-1 time sharing
> system developed at MIT, but the only documentation I've located
> on that is Mario Bonghi's master's thesis, which seems to have been
> written before the hardware was even upgraded to be able to run
> the software it describes.

The book "Computer Engineering" by Bell, Mudge and McNamara gives
another reference for the MIT PDP-1 timesharing system:

J.B. Dennis,
"A Multiuser Computation Facility for Education and Research"
Comm. ACM, vol. 7 no. 9 (Sept. 1964), pp 521-529.

BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed
for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
(BBN). "Computer Engineering" gives this reference for the BBN system:

J. McCarthy, S. Boilen, E. Fredkin, and J.C.R. Lieklider
"A Timesharing Debugging System for a Small Computer"
AFIPS Conference Proceedings, SJCC 1963, vol 23, pp 51-57.

Yes, that is John McCarthy of LISP fame.

Paul

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Jun  8 14:45:32 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 21:45:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <200006080445.VAA25310@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
> > 	Wow, quite a bit of interest in 2.11 these days - I suppose I should

> It's the first PDP operating system I've enjoyed working with, and one of
> the coolest UNIX implementations I've had the pleasure of working with.

	Ah, thanks!   I can't claim _all_ the credit but 2.10.1 was more or
	less directly my "fault" and 2.11 was all set to be called 2.11SMS
	until one of the CSRG folks intervened and gave me the BSD imprimateur.

> I unearthed two Teac 55-G series floppy drives, and they're both broken
> (won't format w/verify) -- the RX50 isn't the only flakey floppy. I've got

	Sigh. 

	Anyhow, to the problem you observed dd'ing data to an RX50 and the
	ensuing compare error.

	I'm using an RX33 (well, mod'd Teac 5.25" drive) on a RQDX3.

	I freshly formatted a floppy.  That's one nice thing about the RX33,
	the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting 
	preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I
	remember.

	Then before doing anything I enabled a bit of extended logging from
	the MSCP driver with

		sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=9

	The  first access to the drive ("disklabel ra9") elicited a 
	"ra9a=entire disk: no disk label" message.  This is expected and
	correct - the kernel saw there was a corrupt/missing label and came
	up with a label that spanned the 2400 sectors of the drive using the
	'a' partition.

	Next a 1.2mb file (sector 0 having zeroes, sector 1 having ones, etc)
	was dd'd:

		dd if=/tmp/data of=/dev/rra9a

	and almost immediately dd reported:

	write: Read-only file system
	2+0 records in
	2+0 records out

	That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but
	only successfully wrote one.   A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't
	decrement the output count on a write error.

	At any rate you should error out if the label area is not write
	enabled.  The 'disklabel' program automatically enables and disables
	the writeprotect when writing the label in case you were wondering
	about that ;)

	After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
	compares identical to the input file.

	The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved
	2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can
	see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow).

	Why 'ra9' (I hear you ask)?   Well, the system is currently booted
	from a different controller (Emulex UC08).  The boot controller is
	*always* 'ra0 thru ra7' no matter what the CSR is.   The secondary
	controller (the RQDX3 in this case) is always 'ra8 thru ra15'.  The
	RD54 is 'ra8' (first drive on the 2nd controller) and the RX33 is
	ra9 (second drive on the second controller).

> > 	Oh, for debugging purposes you can enable more or all of the MSCP
> > 	messages with the 'sysctl' command:
> > 
> > 		sysctl -w machdep.mscp.printf=X
> 
> I will. Thanks. I didn't even know 2.11 had 'sysctl'. Cool.

	One more thing I stuffed into the system.  You'll also find 
	"sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices
	which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the
	latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago).


	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Jun  8 15:41:44 2000
From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff)
Date: 08 Jun 2000 07:41:44 +0200
Subject: unix precursors
In-Reply-To: "A. P. Garcia"'s message of "07 Jun 2000 21:58:58 +0000"
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

"A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia at hackaholic.org> writes:
> I know that www.multicians.org is a nice web site devoted to Multics,
> but does anyone know where I can learn more about other precursors to
> unix?

How about ITS, did it influence Unix?

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Thu Jun  8 17:13:02 2000
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:13:02 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: RQDX3 software interleave
In-Reply-To: <v04210100b564661bc3fe@[10.10.50.26]>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000608090825.9260D-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Roger Ivie wrote:

> > Speaking of PITA
> >device control, wasn't it the DEC RX02 that wrote address information in
> >single density and data in DD?
> 
> Yes, it was. But it was usually done by the hardware (I suppose that
> would be microcode in the case of the RX02), so unless you wanted to
> do something foolish like read RX02 diskettes in your DD CP/M machine
> or format floppies you don't have to worry about it.

And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of
the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
only.

Note that formatting RX02 floppes is no problem, since you format them in
single density. The RX02 sets a bit in the header if the data is DD, and
this is controllable from all DEC OSes that I know of.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Thu Jun  8 23:02:17 2000
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:02:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RQDX3 software interleave
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000608090825.9260D-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.1000608085853.3755A-100000@world.std.com>

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
> control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle of
> the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
> only.

IF you must transfer RX02 resident files to a non dec system the only
choice is another RX02 or compatable (DSD880 and friends).  However,
if that is available the disk can be reformatted to SSSD, data written to
it and then standard floppy contoller chips and systems that can handle 8"
media will work just fine.

RX50 and RX33 formatting do not have this liability.

Allison



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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Fri Jun  9 01:36:34 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 11:36:34 -0400
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500
References: <0006072246.AA16781@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com>

On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> 
> > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> > This is pure luxury.=20
> 
> And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
> KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
> GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.

My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used.  If Quasijarus
builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.

I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times
as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex"
processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the
swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work.

Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is;
I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when,
pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-)

Thor

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Fri Jun  9 01:54:33 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 00 10:54:33 CDT
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
Message-ID: <0006081554.AA17948@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> If Quasijarus
> builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc [...]

It does.

> [...] it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> for the kernel build, due to severe bugs [...]

Wrong, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus *does* use the optimizer for the kernel build, as did
plain 4.3BSD, running c2 -i for the drivers and normally for everything else.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)


From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Fri Jun  9 06:40:15 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 15:40:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <200006080445.VAA25310@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006081444001.7342-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

> 	I freshly formatted a floppy.  That's one nice thing about the RX33,
> 	the RQDX3 can format floppies using ZRQF?? - RX50's meant getting 
> 	preformat'd media or a Rainbow to do the formatting from what I
> 	remember.
Unless you have a Shaffstall 6000 -- a really cool piece of equipment once
made by my current employer, which is basically a box full of floppy
drives (3.5" HD, 5.25" 48tpi, 5.25" 96tpi, 8", and a few, but not mine,
have the Amstrad 3" 'flippy-disk') which are all _really_ well-aligned
(20% better than OEM spec) and an intelligent disk controller (which is
actually an 8085-based SBC) in a PC. About the only disks I _can't_ read
(or write or format) with this thing are the 2.88MB 3.5"
'extended-density' disks -- and I have a NeXTstation to read those.
Needless to say, I've got no problem formatting RX50s, in any interleave.

> 	write: Read-only file system
> 	2+0 records in
> 	2+0 records out
That's what I get.

> 	That probably should have been 2+0 and 1+0 since dd read two sectors but
> 	only successfully wrote one.   A bug in 'dd' perhaps that it doesn't
> 	decrement the output count on a write error.
I noticed that, too.

> 	After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
> 	compares identical to the input file.
Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed
sleep.

> 	The MSCP driver hasn't changed in quite a while so if you retrieved
> 	2.11 fairly recently the problem's not a bug in ra.c that I can
> 	see (or if it is, it's particular to the RX50 somehow).
I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've
written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC
software engineers by DEC hardware engineers?

> 	One more thing I stuffed into the system.  You'll also find 
> 	"sigaction" and friends along with RTS/CTS flowcontrol (for devices
> 	which support it), and numerous other goodies imported from 4.4BSD (the
> 	latest addition was 'pselect(2)' just a couple months ago).
Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get
1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous
other goodies' I like.

As for the userland environment, it's "vanilla BSD" and that's exactly
what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an
UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC,
I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x
that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is
command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?

Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
FreeBSD community At Large.

-jtm


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From enf at pobox.com  Fri Jun  9 08:41:25 2000
From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:41:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: unix precursors
In-Reply-To: <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com>
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <200006072250.RAA82201@shell-1.enteract.com> <393F04A1.2A71E151@accesscom.com>
Message-ID: <200006082241.RAA99748@shell-2.enteract.com>

Paul West writes,

> BTW, there apparently were two different timesharing systems developed
> for the PDP-1, the second one coming from Bolt, Beranek, and Newman
> (BBN).

Thanks for reminding me about the Jack Dennis article -- I had
forgotten about that one.

There were, I think, at least *four* time-sharing systems for the
PDP-1.  Besides the MIT and BBN ones, there was also the Hospital
Computer Project (I'm not sure whether that one was descended from
the early BBN system or was written from scratch) and the THOR
system at Stanford.  I can't give proper citations because I'm
currently 2000 miles from my book collection.

eric

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jun  9 08:58:44 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:58:44 +1000 (EST)
Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006081444001.7342-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com> from "Jason T. Miller" at "Jun 8, 2000  3:40:15 pm"
Message-ID: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Jason T. Miller:
> The only thing I want is
> command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
> used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
> for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
> characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
> tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
> 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
> suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?

I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
 
> Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
> the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
> FreeBSD community At Large.

Yep, it will go into Tools/

	Warren

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From enf at pobox.com  Fri Jun  9 09:21:44 2000
From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer)
Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 18:21:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: unix precursors
In-Reply-To: <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <200006082321.SAA57997@shell-1.enteract.com>

Lars Brinkhoff writes,

> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?

If nothing else, the "more" program began as a copy of an ITS feature.
And people think of emacs as a Unix program, but it came to Unix from
ITS and brought with it things like the "info" documentation format.

eric

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From pdub at accesscom.com  Fri Jun  9 10:27:13 2000
From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:27:13 -0700
Subject: unix precursors
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <394039E1.ED6AB226@accesscom.com>

lars brinkhoff wrote:
 
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?

ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson
ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for
yourself, if you want.

The ITS Reference manual is available at
"ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps"

The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under
the GPL, and is at
"ftp://fpt.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its".

Happy historical hunting!
Paul

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From pdub at accesscom.com  Fri Jun  9 10:29:55 2000
From: pdub at accesscom.com (Paul West)
Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:29:55 -0700
Subject: unix precursors (corrected URL)
References: <m21z29f90d.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <85snuoenl3.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <39403A83.CDDC2592@accesscom.com>

Sorry for the repeat, I mistyped a URL in the first version.
Paul

---

lars brinkhoff wrote:
 
> How about ITS, did it influence Unix?

ITS was quite idiosyncratic, and I do not recall that Richie or Thompson
ever mentioned it as an influence on Unix. But you can judge for
yourself, if you want.

The ITS Reference manual is available at
"ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/0-499/AIM-161A.ps"

The source code and system documentation for ITS has been released under
the GPL, and is at
"ftp://ftp.swiss.ai.mit.edu/pub/its".

Happy historical hunting!
Paul

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From jasomill at indiana.edu  Fri Jun  9 18:55:11 2000
From: jasomill at indiana.edu (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 03:55:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000@lizard.indiana.edu>

Thanks to the good advice of members of the PUPS mailing list, I've
completed my first stab at an RX50 read/write toolset for FreeBSD. It
consists of two parts, a kernel patch to add the physical format, and a
filter set to deal with the logical sector interleave. It's ugly (not only
does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the
ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at
night when I think nobody's watching), but it seems to work pretty
well. The kernel patch, at least, is clean. Those with good karma and
flawlessly aligned drive heads can even try formatting their own RX50s.

So how do I submit it to the archive? "incoming" seems to be RO. It's
about 3K, tarred and gzipped.

Jason T. Miller
Self-styled Jack of England

"..." -Anonymous


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From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Fri Jun  9 23:14:11 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:14:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>



> I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
> memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
> could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the
Bourne shell. Hence, a project.

> > Also, when I get my RX50 toolset for FreeBSD working, should I put it in
> > the archive? It'd probably be more interesting to PUPS'ers than the
> > FreeBSD community At Large.
> 
> Yep, it will go into Tools/
Well, it's kind of ugly (okay, really ugly), but it's working pretty well.
The physical I/O portion is a (miniscule) patch against the 4.0-STABLE
FreeBSD kernel, but the interleave filters are pretty much standard C
(hideous C, but no BSD tricks) and should work on any raw I/O read of an
RX50 disk (you can do it in Linux without kernel mods; see setfdprm(8)).
Of course, the filters are only applicable to PDP-11-ish or VAX-ish RX50s;
Rainbow and DECmate disks are totally different; if someone wants to
implement those things, go ahead (Rainbow MS-DOS could be had with careful
mods to mtools, and there are a billion ways to skin a CP/M disk;  
haven't seen anything on UNIX to handle the DEC WPS file management
system, but I digress), but they have little to do with UNIX on the PDP
and less to do with me personally (my loving father having discarded my
DECmate II as junk about ten years ago).

-jtm


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 10 00:54:25 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 00 09:54:25 CDT
Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <0006091454.AA19804@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Jason T. Miller <jasomill at shaffstall.com> wrote:

> (my loving father having discarded my
> DECmate II as junk about ten years ago).

Then call your nearest DEC dealer, get a quote on the replacement price, and
sue your dad for the cost! Or report him to NKVD for vandalism of socialist
property.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From rivie at teraglobal.com  Sat Jun 10 01:16:50 2000
From: rivie at teraglobal.com (Roger Ivie)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:16:50 -0600
Subject: RX50 read/write on FreeBSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000@lizard.indiana.edu>
References: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0006090342330.4154-100000@lizard.indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <v0421010ab566b93d974a@[10.10.50.26]>

Jason Miller wrote:
>(not only
>does it only support stdin and stdout, but it uses both 'goto' and the
>ternary operator; I tend to deeply offend the C style gods, late at
>night when I think nobody's watching)

Could be worse. I deeply offend the C style gods right in the open where
everyone can see. Since I'm pretty much a hardware type, I do _everything_
in state machines. While that works great for everything from hardware to
Prolog, it does mean my code tends to assume the only available
control structure is "if( expr ) goto state;". My attitude is that the
state diagram is the program, the code is just an implementation detail.

I used to work for a company that did TURBOchannel devices. I did the
device drivers for all the platforms (VAX/VMS, Alpha/VMS, Ultrix, and
OSF/1) and I shipped source code (it wasn't a conscious decision on the
part of management; since I got to build the distribution kits, the source
code was included and management simply didn't argue with me). One day I
got a letter from someone who had just bought our TURBOchannel parallel
printer port offering to go through the code and remove all those evil
gotos for the low, low price of only $100 a page. I declined the offer.

--
Roger Ivie
rivie at teraglobal.com
Not speaking for TeraGlobal Communications Corporation

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sat Jun 10 03:53:05 2000
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:53:05 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, 8 Jun 2000, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 07, 2000 at 05:46:55PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> > 
> > > Oh, yes. My VS4000m60 needs only 36 hours to go through a "make build".
> > > This is pure luxury.
> > 
> > And 4.3BSD-Quasijarus completes its make build on my CSRG dev mill, which is a
> > KA655 (3.8 VUPs, whereas your KA46 is 12 VUPs), in a little under 4 hours. The
> > GENERIC vmunix kernel is another 30 minutes.
> 
> My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
> substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
> is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used.  If Quasijarus
> builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
> than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.

Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than
NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the
kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to
build.

> I'd be willing to bet that gcc -O0 would build NetBSD at least ten times
> as fast as gcc -O2; the VAX is (as we all know ;-)) a "rather complex"
> processor, with "rather complex" instruction patterns, gcc is not the
> swiftest of compilers in the first place, and it does a *lot* of work.

True.

> Slow machines *are* good for demonstrating how good your compiler is;
> I recall that rebuilding "compress" with gcc on my 750, way back when,
> pretty much doubled the amount of Usenet news I could handle in a day. :-)

:-)

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Jun 10 04:42:16 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: "Jason T. Miller" <jasomill at shaffstall.com>
> > 	write: Read-only file system
> > 	2+0 records in
> > 	2+0 records out
> That's what I get.

	Oh - ok.  I must have misread the initial posting that indicated the
	complete copy went thru

		  dd if=testrx50.img of=/dev/ra12a
		  800+0 records in
		  800+0 records out

	If the writing of the floppy bailed out after "2+0" then it is no
	wonder the compare later fails - only the first sector was written.

> > 	After doing the "disklabel -W ra9" the "dd" works fine and the floppy
> > 	compares identical to the input file.
>
> Still haven't tried it. Had to watch the Pacers game and get some needed
> sleep.

	Sleep I can understand :)

	I really think (and sure hope!) that write enabling the label area
	will fix the problem.

	Having to do a "disklabel -W" on a disk before doing 'raw' I/O was
	a change that came in when labels were implemented.  Before labels
	the tables were compiled into the driver and 'raw' I/O could scribble
	all over the disk and the system would still know about the 
	partitioning.   When I ported over disklabels from 4.3-Reno it seemed
	like a "Good Thing" to be paranoid about preserving the label sector ;)

> I've gone over ra.c several times -- that's a fun piece of code. I've
> written device drivers before, but really, was this a test of DEC
> software engineers by DEC hardware engineers?

	You know - I think it was a contest inside DEC to see who would go
	crazy first.   Reading the comments in the Ultrix drivers gave me
	the impression that even within DEC getting clear and correct
	documentation wasn't a given.   Then there are Chris Torek's comments
	in the 4.3-Reno and later MSCP drivers when he was in essence reverse
	engineering (or outright guessing) the MSCP commands, options, etc.

> Well, all my serial cables are three-wire (yes, I'm lazy, but I get
> 1.8K/sec via SLIP at 19200, so I'm not too concerned), but the 'numerous
> other goodies' I like.

	Hmmm, that's got to be a DHQ or similar.  I had real problems with a
	DHV-11 and character loss when going over 9600.   Also, if you want
	to use "Kermit" you have to have RTS/CTS because that's a fairly
	heavy weight protocol and the system can't keep up if the rate is
	too high.   With RTS/CTS in place I was able to use 38400 and not
	loose a single character.

> what I know and love. Give me 2.11BSD on a PDP over Solaris on an
> UltraSPARC any day (well, if anyone wants to _give me_ and UltraSPARC,

	Slowaris?  "Just say no" - I have to deal with that at work and
	it was light night and day going from SunOS 4.1.x to Slowaris 2.x
	on the same hardware.  You *need* an UltraSparc just to restore the
	system responsiveness.

> I'll do the responsible thing and reevaluate my claims -- and SunOS [4.1.x
> that is] is a decent OS, but anyway, I digress). The only thing I want is

	Bit long in the tooth and missing a lot of the improvements (and
	fixes) in the IP/TCP stack that have been made over time.  Still, it
	was a much nicer system.

> command history and filename completion in the Bourne shell (having grown
> used to Bash -- although it's a big memory pig and I admit I use it only
> for the previously mentioned features, though I like the PS variable magic
> characters, too -- I'm thinking about trying to hack the CH features of
> tcsh (never been a C shell fan) into sh, maybe we should start a 2BSD
> 'ports' collection? Any suggestions for a name of this shell? Any
> suggestions for freeing up my time to write it :)?

	Might I suggest "pig"? <grin!>

	I like and use 'csh' for everything except the basic scripts that go
	into the system.  Csh has filename completion that works fairly well,
	only thing it doesn't have is arrowkey driven command editing.

	But observe the bloat factor that comes with "niceties" such as
	command history and command editing:

	First there's the honest to Bourne shell:

	text    data    bss     dec     hex
	16576   2356    416     19348   4b94	/bin/sh

	Then take a look at /bin/csh where there's history and a nicer
	(to me scripting capability - doing arithmetic in csh is so much 
	easier than in sh):

	55744   7104    3682    66530   103e2   total text: 69120
		overlays: 7360,6016

	Overlaid!  Efficiently (the one overlay is called seldom) but overlaid
	none the less.

	And lastly 'tcsh' (and yes, there is a port of an older version of
	tcsh for 2.11):

	48960   14844   11986   75790   1280e   total text: 140864
		overlays: 15424,16000,14144,14016,16256,16064

	Zounds!  No hope of really being efficient - modules were packed where
	they would fit.   More than doubling the size of 'csh' seems to be
	a VERY high price to pay for using the arrow keys if you ask me.

	Oh, and 'tcsh' has another problem due to it's appetite for memory.
	If it runs out of D space (more likely since it's so much larger)
	you get logged out.   Doing filename completion in 'tcsh' and being
	in a directory with too many files is a sure way to be staring at
	the login prompt shortly there after ;)

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Sat Jun 10 04:59:38 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 14:59:38 -0400
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>; from bqt@Update.UU.SE on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200
References: <20000608113634.A26968@rek.tjls.com> <Pine.VUL.3.93.1000609195015.10628B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <20000609145938.A6135@rek.tjls.com>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 07:53:05PM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > 
> > My experience with compilers on the VAX leads me to believe that the
> > substantial "savings" seen over NetBSD or post-4.3 BSD distributions here
> > is almost entirely due to the compiler and options used.  If Quasijarus
> > builds like CSRG 4.3 did, with pcc, it can't even use the optimizer *at all*
> > for the kernel build, due to severe bugs; either way, pcc runs a lot faster
> > than gcc though it generates code that runs a whole lot slower.
> 
> Um. Let me put it this way... Userland is a *lot* smaller in 4.3 than
> NetBSD... How much time do you think that makes up? The same goes for the
> kernel. It's not that 4.3 is faster per se, just that it has a lot less to
> build.

Well, of course it does.  But it's also well worth keeping in mind that
while pcc is generally inferior to gcc in almost every other way, due
to its simplicity it *is* probably at least five times as fast.  A lot
of the difference in speed we're talking about here, particularly
with regard to the kernel, is due to the use of a much slower compiler;
as much of the kernel as you *have* to build for a VAX (as opposed to
what you *can* build if you *want to*) hasn't really bloated a lot
between 4.3 and NetBSD.  Runtime memory use is a somewhat different
matter, but we do still fit into Ragge's smaller VAXen pretty well.

Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with
the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is.  Though I think he
forgot to mention "inline" (ack!  pffffft!)... :-)

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls at rek.tjls.com
	"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 10 05:18:21 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 00 14:18:21 CDT
Subject: Newer BSD thingies....nice but then again....
Message-ID: <0006091918.AA20337@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> Thanks to Michael for reminding me exactly what the situation with
> the optimizer and kernel builds under 4.3 is.  Though I think he
> forgot to mention "inline" (ack!  pffffft!)... :-)

We do use inline of course. I love it.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 10 05:37:25 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:37:25 -0700
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 11:42:16AM -0700
References: <200006091842.LAA18214@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20000609123725.S55675@dragon.nuxi.com>


This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
read this list for.



From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Sat Jun 10 06:17:48 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:17:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX02 diskettes
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006091515540.10091-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

> And in those cases, you loose as well. The RX02 uses a micro-engine to
> control the drive. No chip controller can switch density in the middle
> of
> the track, so RX02 floppies will forever be in the domain of RX02 drives
> only.
Funny thing. I read 'em on my PS/2. I Am Not Making This Up. No
prefabricated single-chip floppy controller, methinks...

-jtm


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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jun 10 06:59:09 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:59:09 -0400
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
Message-ID: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>

> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> read this list for.

I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
that's the impression I got from the headers indicating it was a direct
reply to his message), but that doesn't make much sense because what he
wrote about was *exactly* on target for what this list is about: Running
Unix on PDP-11's.

OK, his jabs at Solaris probably weren't exactly on topic, but let's
look at what else he discussed:

* The disklabel implementation on 2.11BSD and its roots in other Unices.

* The history of MSCP drivers in 2.11BSD and other BSD-derived Unices.

* Efficient use of DHQ and DHV async multiplexers in Unix.

* The history of sh, csh, and tcsh, some introduction to how they use
  overlays on PDP-11 Unices, and the application of split I/D techniques
  to their operation.

All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
subject(s).  What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From gqueri at mail.dotcom.fr  Sat Jun 10 07:20:51 2000
From: gqueri at mail.dotcom.fr (Gael Queri)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:20:51 +0200
Subject: tcsh on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>; from jasomill@shaffstall.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500
References: <200006082258.IAA05733@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006090801130.8604-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>
Message-ID: <20000609232051.A28762@baoule.ath.cx>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 08:13:49AM -0500, Jason T. Miller wrote:
> > I thought there was a port of an early tcsh to 2.*BSD? Maybe I have poor
> > memory. Anyway, I believe that Minix has a very tiny editline(), which
> > could be squeezed into the 2.11BSD csh to give you command-line editing.
> Yup. There's a tcsh included in 2.11BSD; thing is, I'm partial to the
> Bourne shell. Hence, a project.
And did you try to do something with pdksh? It's smaller than tcsh
and it has filename completion and support for reentrant history
(contrary to bash)

look at ftp.cs.mun.ca:/pub/pdksh/

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 10 08:23:55 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:23:55 -0700
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>; from SHOPPA@trailing-edge.com on Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400
References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> > read this list for.
> 
> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least

Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message.  Not it as not directed
directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
discussion.  

> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
> subject(s).  What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?

This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion.  I didn't vote so before,
but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two.  I agree that the
first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
gained.  But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
hardware.

I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jun 10 11:32:24 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 21:32:24 -0400
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
Message-ID: <000609213224.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>

>> > This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
>> > read this list for.
>> 
>> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least

>Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message.  Not it as not directed
>directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
>discussion.  

Actually, Steven did a *very* good job at turning a hardware-oriented
discussion to issues very much related to the history and maintainence
of Unix.

Besides, if anyone here wants to really know about RX50 interleaving,
they should go read one of CJL's posts from the Lasnerian early 90's
to alt.sys.pdp8/PDP8-LOVERS about RX50 interleave.  I swear, it was
a tome that was a good chunk of a megabyte long.

>> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
>> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
>> subject(s).  What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?

>This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion.  I didn't vote so before,
>but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two.  I agree that the
>first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
>gained.  But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
>discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
>hardware.

I view it the other way - the original posts offered little historical
insight, but the last one by Steven drew it very much back to Unix.

>I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
>guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

Indeed, there is a PDP-11 mailing list (info-pdp11 at village.org) already,
gatewayed to the Usenet newsgroup vmsnet.pdp-11.  To a large extent, though,
you can't blame members of the PUPS mailing list from occasionally straying
from "Unix in general" to the "PDP-11 in particular", because that's a good
part of what the list was originally created for (even though you might
not have joined until the The Unix Heritage Society solidified...)

If there was a more general "Unix Heritage Society" mailing list, would
platform-specific discussions be banned from that?  I probably would be
bored to tears by any such restrictions, as there would be no opportunities
to give concrete examples.

Tim.

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From grog at lemis.com  Sat Jun 10 11:54:48 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:24:48 +0930
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com>
References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com> <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com>
Message-ID: <20000610112448.K81728@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Friday,  9 June 2000 at 15:23:55 -0700, David O'Brien wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 09, 2000 at 04:59:09PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
>>> read this list for.
>>
>> I *think* you wrote this in reply to Steven Schultz's message, (at least
>
> Yes, I wrote it in reply to Steven's message.  Not it as not directed
> directly at Steven, it is for everyone that is engaged in this hardware
> discussion.
>
>> All of these are, IMHO, very worthy topics of discussion for a mailing
>> list about PDP-11 Unix, and they were all direct from the expert on the
>> subject(s).  What else would a subscriber to the PUPS list be looking for?
>
> This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion.  I didn't vote so before,
> but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two.  I agree that the
> first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
> gained.  But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
> discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
> hardware.
>
> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

Well, FWIW this *is* the PDP-11 list.  But I thought it was
interesting way beyond the PDP-11 aspect.  Some of these things
(write-protected labels, for example) still shape FreeBSD, for
example.

I don't think we really have enough mail to justify two lists.  Most
of us probably ditch more than 50% of their mail every day anyway; if
this doesn't interest you, why not just delete it?

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From cpg at aladdin.de  Mon Jun 12 08:35:18 2000
From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 23:35:18 +0100
Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Message-ID: <412568FB.0081A620.00@saturn.aladdin.de>




Hi,

(Sorry if this is a FAQ)

I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images.
This is what happens:

----------------------
gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11

PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> set cpu 18b
sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
sim> boot rp

53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700

2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
    root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON

panic: buffers
no fs on dev 10/0

dumping to dev 5001 off 512
dump args:EINVAL

HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162)
sim>
----------------------

What am I doing wrong?

regards,
chris



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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Jun 12 09:36:45 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:36:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Message-ID: <200006112336.QAA12888@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg at aladdin.de>
> 
> I'm trying to boot the 2.11_rp_unknown image from Boot_Images.
> This is what happens:
> 
> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
> sim> set cpu 18b

	Try "set cpu 22b" instead.  Using 18b tells the simulator you have
	a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough 
	for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs.

> panic: buffers

	Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any
	memory for the buffer cache.  I am almost certain that means
	there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb.

> What am I doing wrong?

	Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode.  If that still
	fails let us know.  Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;)

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From cpg at aladdin.de  Mon Jun 12 10:37:24 2000
From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 01:37:24 +0100
Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Message-ID: <412568FC.00096F95.00@saturn.aladdin.de>



On 06/11/2000 11:36:45 PM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
>>
>> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
>> sim> set cpu 18b
>
>    Try "set cpu 22b" instead.  Using 18b tells the simulator you have
>    a 248kb (and 8kb for the I/O page) machine and that is not enough
>    for 2.11 to load and allocate all the resources it needs.
>
>> panic: buffers
>
>    Yep -that panic message says the kernel could not allocate any
>    memory for the buffer cache.  I am almost certain that means
>    there is not enough free memory left out of 248kb.
>
>> What am I doing wrong?
>
>    Try telling the emulator to use "22bit" mode.  If that still
>    fails let us know.  Then it will be time for "Plan B" ;)

Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work:
---------------------
gibbon:/net/scharfzahn/playing/boot_images$ pdp11

PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> set cpu 22b
sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
sim> boot rp

53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700

2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
    root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON

panic: buffers
no fs on dev 10/0

dumping to dev 5001 off 512
dump args:EINVAL

HALT instruction, PC: 006606 (JSR R5,3162)
sim>
---------------------

What is "Plan B"?  :-)

regards,
chris



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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Jun 12 11:33:37 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 18:33:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Message-ID: <200006120133.SAA13674@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: "Christian Groessler" <cpg at aladdin.de>
> Hmm, sorry, it still doesn't work:

> sim> set cpu 22b
> sim> att rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
> sim> boot rp
> What is "Plan B"?  :-)

	Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly.   Simply saying
	"set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it
	does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have
	1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible).

	Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here.

	It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't
	try that by itself.

Script started on Sun Jun 11 18:30:40 2000
moe.1-> cat f
set cpu 22B
set cpu 2048K
att rp0 rp
boot rp
moe.2-> pdp11 f

PDP-11 simulator V2.3d

53Boot from xp(0,0,0) at 0176700
: 
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700

2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
    root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON

attaching lo0

phys mem  = 2097152
avail mem = 1668352
user mem  = 307200

January  8 06:50:29 init: configure system

lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 skipped:  No CSR.
cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped:  No CSR.
cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped:  No CSR.
cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped:  No CSR.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
# halt
syncing disks... done
halting

HALT instruction, PC: 000014 (MOV #1,12456)
sim> q
Goodbye
moe.3-> exit
exit

Script done on Sun Jun 11 18:30:59 2000

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From cpg at aladdin.de  Mon Jun 12 23:34:47 2000
From: cpg at aladdin.de (Christian Groessler)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:34:47 +0100
Subject: problems booting 2.11_rp_unknown
Message-ID: <412568FC.005055C9.00@saturn.aladdin.de>



On 06/12/2000 01:33:37 AM GMT "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
>    Plan B is to specify the amount of memory directly.   Simply saying
>    "set cpu 22B" tells the emulator to use 22 bit addressing - but it
>    does not say how much memory the system has (it's possible to have
>    1mb of memory even though ~4mb is possible).
>
>    Try using both "set cpu 22B" and "set cpu 2048K" - that worked here.
>
>    It may well be that only "set cpu 2048K" is actually needed - I didn't
>    try that by itself.

It works :-) :-)

Thanks for your help!

regards,
chris



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From tfb at cley.com  Tue Jun 13 00:11:30 2000
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com>
References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>
	<20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com>
Message-ID: <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com>

* David O'Brien wrote:

> This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion.  I didn't vote so before,
> but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two.  I agree that the
> first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
> gained.  But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
> discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
> hardware.

> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

Please don't.  I love reading discussions of random old bits of
hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a
long time.

--tim



From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jun 13 08:50:48 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:50:48 +1000 (EST)
Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE
In-Reply-To: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 9, 2000  3:23:55 pm"
Message-ID: <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by David O'Brien:
> I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

I will create one today or tomorrow:

	tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au	Unix Heritage

	pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au	PDP-11 Unix

You will all be subscribed to both lists. To be removed from a list,
send e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the line

	unsubscribe pups, or
	unsubscribe tuhs

For those on the digested list (twice weekly), ditto except

	unsubscribe pups-digest, or
	unsubscribe tuhs-digest

I will announce the new list(s) using them as a vehicle soon. That way,
the announcement becomes some test mail :)

Until then, tolerate the system-specific e-mail for just a bit longer.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Tue Jun 13 08:55:42 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:55:42 -0700
Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE
In-Reply-To: <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000
References: <20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> <200006122250.IAA24777@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000612155542.G27421@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Tue, Jun 13, 2000 at 08:50:48AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by David O'Brien:
> > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
> > guess one needs to be created) would be possible.

Hi Warren,

I was wrong for my email.  The feed back has been that people like the
combined list.  I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11
info.  I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on
to purely PDP-11 hardware.  I have been told I was wrong.

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jun 13 09:05:56 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 09:05:56 +1000 (EST)
Subject: New Unix Heritage List, was Re: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE
In-Reply-To: <20000612155542.G27421@dragon.nuxi.com> from "David O'Brien" at "Jun 12, 2000  3:55:42 pm"
Message-ID: <200006122305.JAA24939@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by David O'Brien:
> I was wrong for my email.  The feed back has been that people like the
> combined list.  I have to admit I too like to see some of the PDP-11
> info.  I just felt the last thread had gotten off topic when it moved on
> to purely PDP-11 hardware.  I have been told I was wrong.
> -- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

Everybody, here is a person who has courage & honesty. Thanks for that, David.

However, I will still create two groups, because it will allow
more specific content to be addressed where relevant.

Cheers!
	Warren

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jun 13 10:40:04 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:40:04 +1000 (EST)
Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List
Message-ID: <200006130040.KAA25608@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Hello,
	This is to inform you that you are subscribed to the PDP Unix
Preservation Society's mailing list at pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. This
list is specifically to deal with running versions of Unix on the PDP-11
platforms. If you are not interested in this topic, please send some e-mail
to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line in the body of
the message:

	unsubscribe pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au

If you are subscribed to the digest version, then you can unsubscribe by
sending e-mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the folllwing line
in the body of the message:

	unsubscribe pups-digest at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au

Cheers!
	Warren

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Tue Jun 13 18:07:05 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 10:07:05 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: PLEASE TAKE THIS ELSEWHERE (was Re: RX50 on RQDX3 on 2.11BSD)
In-Reply-To: <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com> (message from Tim Bradshaw
	on Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST))
References: <000609165909.20200fd8@trailing-edge.com>
	<20000609152354.A60849@dragon.nuxi.com> <14660.61330.622418.671382@cley.com>
Message-ID: <200006130807.KAA54220@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > From: Tim Bradshaw <tfb at cley.com>
 > Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:11:30 +0100 (BST)
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > * David O'Brien wrote:
 > 
 > > This goes back to the UHS / PUPS discussion.  I didn't vote so before,
 > > but maybe it is time to separate the mail for the two.  I agree that the
 > > first posts were interesting in the historical insight that could be
 > > gained.  But this thread has turned into a rather long hardware
 > > discussion applicable to only a handful of people that have this
 > > hardware.
 > 
 > > I do not mean to be mean, but it seems moving this to some PDP-11 list (I
 > > guess one needs to be created) would be possible.
 > 
 > Please don't.  I love reading discussions of random old bits of
 > hardware, and such discussions have gone on on the PUPS list for a
 > long time.


So do I. Actually I can understand the need of some participants to
somehow reduce their mail volume. On the other side, it seems to be
quite difficult to draw the exact line between on- and
offtopic. Personally I try to filter as good as I can, and admittedly I
do not read everything at once (and sometimes only weeks later).

Regards -- Markus


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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jun 13 04:49:12 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700
Subject: Future Direction for PUPS and UHS
In-Reply-To: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
References: <200006010025.KAA49471@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000612114912.G242@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com>

On Thursday,  1 June 2000 at 10:25:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> All,
> 	A discussion has started up on the PUPS volunteers list about the
> future direction we should take in terms of the PUPS Archive.
>
> For those people new to this list, here's a bit of background. Originally
> I set up the PDP-11 UNIX Preservation Society, the mailing list and the
> Archive as that was my interest.
>
> Since then, we've attracted people with interests in other Unixes, such
> as the 4BSDs, and other hardware platforms such as the Vax, the 68k Suns
> etc.
>
> A while back, I changed the charter of the mailing list to encompass any
> Unix-related questions, epecially to those systems which are now treated
> as `ancient' by the mainstream, even if they are being maintained (e.g
> 2.11BSD and the Quasijarus project).
>
> I also tried to create an umbrella organisation, the Unix Heritage Society
> (http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/), which would allow a number of groups
> like PUPS and Quasijarus to form, and so that we could co-ordinate their
> efforts. I must admit I haven't put much effort into this idea.
>
> Now, the PUPS Archive (PUPS in name, but it contains lots more than PDP-11
> stuff) is accumulating more and more stuff. Some people want to see a
> mainly PDP-11 archive, other want to try and archive everything before it
> goes off to /dev/null.
>
> So, I want to survey the mailing list here for ideas about the charter of
> the Unix Heritage Society, and a way of setting up one or multiple archives,
> mailing lists, web pages etc. as I originally envisioned.
>
> Questions:
> 	- should we keep one archive, or have multiple archives?

I don't really think it makes any difference.  Structure one archive
well, and you can get the individual platform archives simply by going
down a directory level.  The problem is, of course, that some software
can be relevant to multiple platforms.

> 	- if one, what structure (divisions on platforms, on vendors etc.)

I'd be inclined to go for the hardware platform, but I haven't thought
it through.  Ultimately it would probably depend on the nature of the
software that came in.

> 	- if you have a keen interest in one platform/system, would you
> 	  consider becoming the leader of an interest group that could
> 	  sit under the Unix Heritage Society umbrella?

No, I don't think so.  But you might be able to twist my arm.

> 	- do you want to set up and maintain a more specific archive,
> 	  mailing list, web site, that the Unix Heritage Society could
> 	  point to?

No.

> 	- do you want this current mailing list to stay ``all-encompassing'',
> 	  or would you rather have more specific lists?

Personally I'd like it to be all-encompassing, but then, it's only a
small part of the 1000 messages I get per day, and it's easy to delete
messages I don't want to read.

> [ now stands back for the deluge! ]

That really happened, didn't it?

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From wrking at tsoft.com  Wed Jun 14 17:28:13 2000
From: wrking at tsoft.com (William King)
Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 00:28:13 -0700
Subject: New: PDP-11 Unix Mailing List
Message-ID: <000001bfd5d2$1934c380$bf01a8c0@dadaboom.com>



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From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Jun 14 19:32:07 2000
From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff)
Date: 14 Jun 2000 11:32:07 +0200
Subject: Help reviewing processor features
In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Mon, 12 Jun 2000 11:49:12 -0700"
Message-ID: <85itvcbobs.fsf_-_@junk.nocrew.org>

The following is source code taken verbatim from my PDP-11 support code
for the GNU assembler.  Any help correcting errors would be appreciated.

This code tells the assembler what instruction set features to recognize
depending on what processor the user wants to assemble for.  Individual
features can also be enabled, e.g. if a processor option is installed.

The instruction set features are:
        cis             Commersial instruction set (optional on all
                        processors?).
        csm             CSM instruction.
        eis             Extended instruction set: MUL, DIV, ASH, ASHC, and
                        all of limited-eis.
        fis             KEV11 floating-point instructions.
        fpp             FP-11 floating-point instructions.
        limited-eis     Limited extended instruction set: RTT, MARK, SXT,
                        XOR, SOB.
        mfpt            MFPT instruction.
        multiproc       Multiprocessor instructions: TSTSET, WRTLCK.
        mxps            MFPS and MTPS instructions.
        spl             SPLx instructions.
        ucode           Microcode instructions: LDUB, MED, XFC.

  if (strncmp (buf, "a", 1) == 0)               /* KA11 (11/15/20) */
    return 1; /* no extensions */

  else if (strncmp (buf, "b", 1) == 0)          /* KB11 (11/45/50/55/70) */
    return set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("spl");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "da", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-A (11/35/40) */
    return set_option ("limited-eis");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "db", 2) == 0 ||       /* KD11-B (11/05/10) */
           strncmp (buf, "dd", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-D (11/04) */
    return 1; /* no extensions */

  else if (strncmp (buf, "de", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-E (11/34) */
    return set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("mxps");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "df", 2) == 0 ||       /* KD11-F (11/03) */
           strncmp (buf, "dh", 2) == 0 ||       /* KD11-H (11/03) */
           strncmp (buf, "dq", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-Q (11/03) */
    return set_option ("limited-eis") &&
           set_option ("mxps");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "dk", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-K (11/60) */
    return set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("mxps") &&
           set_option ("ucode");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "dz", 2) == 0)         /* KD11-Z (11/44) */
    return set_option ("csm") &&
           set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("mfpt") &&
           set_option ("mxps") &&
           set_option ("spl");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "f", 1) == 0)          /* F11 (11/24) */
    return set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("mfpt") &&
           set_option ("mxps");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "j", 1) == 0)          /* J11 (11/53/73/83/84/93/94)*/
    return set_option ("csm") &&
           set_option ("eis") &&
           set_option ("mfpt") &&
           set_option ("multiproc") &&
           set_option ("mxps") &&
           set_option ("spl");

  else if (strncmp (buf, "t", 1) == 0)          /* T11 (11/21) */
    return set_option ("limited-eis") &&
           set_option ("mxps");


From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Jun 15 17:35:50 2000
From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff)
Date: 15 Jun 2000 09:35:50 +0200
Subject: Help reviewing PDP-11 model processors
Message-ID: <85ya478kh5.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

The following message is a courtesy copy of an article
that has been posted to alt.sys.pdp11 as well.

Time for the second round of assembler source code review.

If the user specifies a PDP-11 model to the assembler (e.g. -m11/45),
this code is used to tell the assembler what processor to assemble for.

Also, in one case (11/34a), the model enables FP-11 floating-point
instructions.  Should this be done for 11/34c too?  If there are any
other models with otherwise optional features installed, I'd like to
know.

  if (strcmp (arg, "03") == 0)                  /* 11/03 */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11f");             /* KD11-F */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "04") == 0)             /* 11/04 */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11d");             /* KD11-D */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "05") == 0 ||           /* 11/05 or 11/10 */
           strcmp (arg, "10") == 0)
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11b");             /* KD11-B */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "15") == 0 ||           /* 11/15 or 11/20 */
           strcmp (arg, "20") == 0)
    return set_cpu_model ("ka11");              /* KA11 */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "21") == 0)             /* 11/21 */
    return set_cpu_model ("t11");               /* T11 */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "24") == 0)             /* 11/24 */
    return set_cpu_model ("f11");               /* F11 */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "34") == 0)             /* 11/34 */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11e");             /* KD11-E */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "34a") == 0)            /* 11/34a */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11e") &&           /* KD11-E with FP-11 */
           set_option ("fpp");

  else if (strcmp (arg, "35") == 0 ||           /* 11/35 or 11/40 */
           strcmp (arg, "40") == 0)
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11da");            /* KD11-A */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "44") == 0)             /* 11/44 */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11dz");            /* KD11-Z */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "45") == 0 ||           /* 11/45/50/55/70 */
           strcmp (arg, "50") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "55") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "70") == 0)
    return set_cpu_model ("kb11");              /* KB11 */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "60") == 0)             /* 11/60 */
    return set_cpu_model ("kd11k");             /* KD11-K */

  else if (strcmp (arg, "53") == 0 ||           /* 11/53/73/83/84/93/94 */
           strcmp (arg, "73") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "83") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "84") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "93") == 0 ||
           strcmp (arg, "94") == 0)
    return set_cpu_model ("j11");               /* J11 */

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Fri Jun 16 11:06:31 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
Message-ID: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>

On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive.  In particular,
I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight.  If someone could explain to
me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the
grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD
might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the
archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-).

The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen:

Tape 1:

	AT&T 60462
Unix System V Release 2.0
VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
TPName: Root and Selectables

	AT&T 60462
Dwg: j1p077c-3  List:1M1
TP No: OTP-1P550-01  IS: 2.0V2
Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120  Files:0009
Date:01/13/86  Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2


Tape 2:
	AT&T 60463
Unix System V Release 2.0
VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
TPName: USR File System

	AT&T 60463
Dwg: j1p077c-3  List:2m2
TP No: OTP-1P550-02  IS: 2.0V2
Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120  Files:0009
Date:01/13/86  Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0


The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T:

Tape 3:
	UNIX* System III
     PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI
        Release Tape #1
*UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories

	Restricted Rights
Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject
To Restrictions Stated in your contract with
American Telephone & Telegraph

The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I
can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the
files already in the PUPS archives):

Tape 4:

	Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1)  2.9BSD
	Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
	800 BPI HT/TM boot tape.  For tar files
	skip the first 7 tape files with
	``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7''
	Reel 1 of 2   Tape #

Tape 5:
	Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1)  2.9BSD
	Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
	800 BPI		Tar of /usr/src
	Reel 2 of 2

And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.

Tape 6:
	4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
	6 files on tape:
	 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root)
	 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr)
	 6 (/usr/lib/vfont)
	last three are tar; 1600 bpi

Tape 7:
	4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
	tape 2: 3 files on tape
	 1 (/usr/src)
	 2 (user contributed software)
	 3 (/usr/ingres)
	all files are tar; 1600 bpi

Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there
are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile...

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Fri Jun 16 11:30:44 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 00 20:30:44 CDT
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
Message-ID: <0006160130.AA29885@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:

> And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
> they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
> incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
>
> [contents skipped, perfectly matches CSRG 4.2BSD dist]

Yes, please read them and I'll put them in the archive. I maintain the 4BSD
area.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jun 16 12:04:11 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:04:11 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 15, 2000  9: 6:31 pm"
Message-ID: <200006160204.MAA46483@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Tim Shoppa:
> On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
> Tape 1:
> 
> 	AT&T 60462
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: Root and Selectables

Yes please, I have sysVR0 in the archive at the moment.
 
> Tape 2:
> 	AT&T 60463
> Unix System V Release 2.0
> VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
> TPName: USR File System

Yes please. Don't have it yet!
 
> Tape 3:
> 	UNIX* System III
>      PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI

Could be the same as Distributions/usdl/SysIII, but read it anyway!
 
> And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
> they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
> incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.

Again, yes please!!!

Thanks Tim.
	Warren


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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Fri Jun 16 13:24:51 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
Message-ID: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>

> Again, yes please!!!

Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans
of the labels on the original tapes?  If so, is there any preference for
the format of the scan?  These are all (as Tommy Smothers
would say) "the original virgin" tapes.

Tim.

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Jun 16 18:04:53 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:04:53 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
In-Reply-To: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
	Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400)
References: <000615210631.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <200006160804.KAA12190@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>



WOW. Great. Super !! :-)


------------------
 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 21:06:31 -0400
 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > On an Expedition to NJ Tuesday, I rescued about 3/4 of a ton of magtapes.
 > Some of these will probably be interesting for the PUPS archive.  In particular,
 > I'm reading through seven of 'em tonight.  If someone could explain to
 > me how "Unix System V Release 2.0" and "Unix System III" work into the
 > grand scheme of AT&T Unices already in the PUPS archive, and how 2.9.1 BSD
 > might be different from (or the same as) the 2.9 BSD stuff already in the
 > archive, I'd forever appreciate it :-).
 > 
 > The first two tapes are AT&T Unix System V tapes for VAXen:
 > 
 > Tape 1:
 > 
 > 	AT&T 60462
 > Unix System V Release 2.0
 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
 > TPName: Root and Selectables
 > 
 > 	AT&T 60462
 > Dwg: j1p077c-3  List:1M1
 > TP No: OTP-1P550-01  IS: 2.0V2
 > Order: VX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120  Files:0009
 > Date:01/13/86  Opr: jlc Drv: tu-2
 > 
 > 
 > Tape 2:
 > 	AT&T 60463
 > Unix System V Release 2.0
 > VAX Version 2 for 11/780 and 11/750
 > TPName: USR File System
 > 
 > 	AT&T 60463
 > Dwg: j1p077c-3  List:2m2
 > TP No: OTP-1P550-02  IS: 2.0V2
 > Order: UX501404 Spec:000 Item:1
 > BPI 1600 Max Blksize: 05120  Files:0009
 > Date:01/13/86  Opr: jlc Drv: tu-0
 > 
 > 
 > The third tape is UNIX System III from AT&T:
 > 
 > Tape 3:
 > 	UNIX* System III
 >      PDP 11/70,45 - 800 BPI
 >         Release Tape #1
 > *UNIX is a trademark of Bell Laboratories
 > 
 > 	Restricted Rights
 > Use Duplication or Disclosure is Subject
 > To Restrictions Stated in your contract with
 > American Telephone & Telegraph
 > 
 > The Fourth and Fifth tape are either 2.9BSD or 2.9.1BSD (I
 > can't tell the difference until I compare these tapes with the
 > files already in the PUPS archives):
 > 
 > Tape 4:
 > 
 > 	Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1)  2.9BSD
 > 	Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
 > 	800 BPI HT/TM boot tape.  For tar files
 > 	skip the first 7 tape files with
 > 	``mt -t /dev/nrmt0 fsf 7''
 > 	Reel 1 of 2   Tape #
 > 
 > Tape 5:
 > 	Berkeley UNIX (Rev. 2.9.1)  2.9BSD
 > 	Sun Nov 20 14:55:50 PST 1983
 > 	800 BPI		Tar of /usr/src
 > 	Reel 2 of 2
 > 
 > And Tapes 6 and 7 seem to be a complete distribution set of 4.2BSD,
 > they ought to form a good replacement for the supposedly damaged and
 > incomplete set in /Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD.
 > 
 > Tape 6:
 > 	4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
 > 	6 files on tape:
 > 	 1 (boot stuff) 2 (mini root)
 > 	 3 ((root dump) 4 (/sys) 5 (/usr)
 > 	 6 (/usr/lib/vfont)
 > 	last three are tar; 1600 bpi
 > 
 > Tape 7:
 > 	4.2bsd VAX UNIX System 8/23/83
 > 	tape 2: 3 files on tape
 > 	 1 (/usr/src)
 > 	 2 (user contributed software)
 > 	 3 (/usr/ingres)
 > 	all files are tar; 1600 bpi
 > 
 > Like I said, there's about 3/4 of a ton of tapes in total, I'm sure there
 > are some other PUPS-related goodies deeper in the pile...
 > 
 > -- 
 >  Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 >  Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 >  7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 >  Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927
 > 
 > 

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Fri Jun 16 18:08:07 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Bunch of Unix tapes rescued
In-Reply-To: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
	Shoppa on Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400)
References: <000615232451.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <200006160808.KAA12196@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 23:24:51 -0400
 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > > Again, yes please!!!
 > 
 > Would it be useful if I also uploaded GIF's or JPG's or TIFF's of scans
 > of the labels on the original tapes?  If so, is there any preference for
 > the format of the scan?  These are all (as Tommy Smothers
 > would say) "the original virgin" tapes.


Well, I'm presently only a client of the archive, so to say, but why not use
png (the gif replacement advocated by the FSF). Better not use GIF for all
this licensing issues. And as far as I see, png can be shown by -- well -- 
Netscape, whereas TIFF requires a plugin or an external viewer.


Regards - Markus





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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Fri Jun 16 21:21:56 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 7:21:56 -0400
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
Message-ID: <000616072156.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>

OK, I started sorting through some more piles of tapes, and I found
a one more thing that I'm-not-quite-sure-where-it-fits:

Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
didn't remember...

Also, more goodies that may (or may not) be appropriate to add:

* A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91".  I suppose I have to get down
  on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated
  "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno.  This has
  the original UCB stickers on it.

* A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
  4/1/92".  Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late?  Is
  something like this already in Kirk's archive?

Tim.

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Fri Jun 16 21:59:26 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 06:59:26 CDT
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
Message-ID: <0006161159.AA00544@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:

> * A 4.3BSD-Reno VAX tape dated "1/2/91".  I suppose I have to get down
>   on my hands and knees and see how this differs from the version dated
>   "30 Jul 90" currently in Distributions/4bsd/4.3BSD-Reno.  This has
>   the original UCB stickers on it.

Yes.

> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
>   4/1/92".  Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late?  Is
>   something like this already in Kirk's archive?

Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've
seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and
I'll include it in my 4BSD collection.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jun 17 00:07:07 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 10:07:07 -0400
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
Message-ID: <000616100707.2620009e@trailing-edge.com>

>> * A set of tar files on a tape claiming to be the "4.4BSD snapshot
>>   4/1/92".  Is PUPS/TUHS collecting anything anything this late?  Is
>>   something like this already in Kirk's archive?

>Kirk, you'll have to fill me in on this one. Is this the "4.4BSD-Alpha" I've
>seen mentioned in some places? In any case this is not on Kirk's CD-ROMs and
>I'll include it in my 4BSD collection.

I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover
letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape
for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the
tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...".  Is this
the holy grail?

I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 17 00:35:55 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 09:35:55 CDT
Subject: 4.2BSD dist in the TUHS/PUPS archive: resolution
Message-ID: <0006161435.AA00708@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,

Since early fall 1998 the archive has had an incomplete distribution of 4.2BSD
reconstructed from some bogus tape images from Per Andersson. This morning Tim
Shoppa read an authentic 4.2BSD tape dist. I compared it with the incomplete
dist in the archive and found that it is the same dist, Tim Shoppa's version is
complete and correct, and Per Andersson's version was incomplete. The files
that were in the archive were correct. I added the missing files this morning,
making the 4.2BSD dist in the archive complete. It is in
Distributions/4bsd/4.2BSD, it is a superset of what was there before (because
what was there before was just missing some files), and it identically matches
Tim Shoppa's copy in his home directory.

I left Per Andersson's original (bogus) files in the Per_Andersson
subdirectory. Warren, it's up to you if you want to keep or delete them.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 17 00:44:07 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 09:44:07 CDT
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
Message-ID: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:

> I found a separate tape, labeled "August 23, 1992", with a matching cover
> letter (signed by Kirk McKusick) saying "This is a distribution tape
> for the 4.4BSD-Alpha release ... The binaries and kernel on the
> tape support the HP 9000/300 68000-based workstations...".  Is this
> the holy grail?

OK, I dunno whether it qualifies as "the holy grail" or not, but yes, it is the
4.4BSD-Alpha dist.

> I would guess the "4.4BSD snapshot 4/1/92" is pre-release.

OK, just upload both if you can, I'll be happy to put them in the archive and
I'm sure Warren will be too.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From jasomill at shaffstall.com  Sat Jun 17 02:31:18 2000
From: jasomill at shaffstall.com (Jason T. Miller)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 11:31:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RX50 vocoder timing; FreeBSD kernel woes
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10006161046320.22889-100000@guildenstern.shaffstall.com>

Sorry in advance if you unintentionally deleted this message because of
the topic, I'm an incorrigable smart-arse and couldn't resist. My other
idea was ILOVEYOU, but that's been done before...

> This thread has gotten *way* beyond what I (and I'll bet many others)
> read this list for.

The initiator of this post was yours truly. I have been silet since this
post. I hate politics. I figured, "just let it simmer down and then
rationally respond." I hate flamefesten.

Sorry. Can't please everybody all the time. Hey, I don't even try, most of
the time. I find that sitting on the fence can be quite an uncomfortable
position to be in, especially if you're on one of the fenceposts. But, wie
immer, I digress. I didn't mean to crowd your (that is, the royal "your")
mailbox with my hardware woes. I had some issues, directly related to my
_usage_ of PDP-11 UNIX, and, insofar as both the mentioned PDP-11 mailing
list and the DECUS PDP-11 list on eisner.decus.org are both ghost towns,
and several members of this mailing list seem to know quite a bit about
both the hardware platform and the software I choose to run (2.11BSD), I
dreamt of things that never were and said "why not." Thanks to the
knowledge of fellow list-members, my questions were answered, my problem
was solved, and the result is now available in the PUPS archive under
Tools/Disks/rx50-FreeBSD.tar.gz (no comments on code quality to the group,
please; that would be off-topic [read: embarassing] :) Qs and Cs to
jasomill at indiana.edu welcome), which is useful to me and may possibly be
of some interest to other PDP-11 UNIX hobbyists trying to solve the same
problem.

I read the entire PUPS mailing list archive before making my first post.
I've noticed that the top three platform-specific topics seem to be (in
order of appearance):

  1) emulator software
  2) VAX hardware
  3) PDP hardware

I don't use an emulator and I don't have a VAX (though I want one very
very much, but admittably to run VMS mostly), but the discussions don't
bother me. As a matter of fact, some of them interest me; those that
don't, I skip. Anyway, just an observation.

I know it's not the PHPS, but I can not be dissuaded in my belief that
actually _using_ the systems is a vital part of a living preservation
effort, and using them without functional hardware is a bit difficult,
emulators notwithstanding. But please don't deactivate me :), I'll read a
UHS list and a PUPS list and a VAX list and an RT-PC list (I've been
wanting to get my hands on one of those buggers for awhile, actually),
desirous of everything at the same time, and try my best not to yawn and
say commonplace things (apologizes to Jack Kerouac). Thanks again for help
and interesting discussion, to all parties involved, mad to talk or less
so.

What about archiving PDP hardware information? I don't mean discussing
obscure timing details of RK05 controllers or anything, but having a
section of the archive for random hardware tidbits re: PDP. It's not
_directly_ related to UNIX preservation, but it'd be a boon to PDP UNIX
users (not to mention keeping list traffic down in re: these things), and
its space requirements are miniscule. Maybe wait until the PDP-specific
stuff is split off, and create a directory. I'd be happy to maintain it
(I'm also attempting to contact DEC ne Compaq about getting some legacy
docs released; those, of course, would be included; no, that's not what
Mentec bought, I don't think, that's RSX and RSTS/E and RT-11, maybe even
Ultrix. They provide engineering support to DEC PDP-11 customers as well
as compatible hardware, but I believe Compaq still owns the copyrights to
the Digital hardware documentation. Not 100% sure though).

Once again, sorry, once again, thanks, and in closing,

AWWWW,
jasomill



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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 17 05:11:28 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 12:11:28 -0700
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
In-Reply-To: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 09:44:07AM -0500
References: <0006161444.AA00776@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000616121128.A35577@dragon.nuxi.com>

It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:

1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
files.

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 17 05:27:54 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 14:27:54 CDT
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
Message-ID: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

David O'Brien <obrien at NUXI.com> wrote:

> It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
> distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
>
> 1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
> 4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
> 4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
> files.

I know this of course, I have one.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)


From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 17 06:12:55 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area
Message-ID: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,

Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in

Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha

Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
and preservation section of our project.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jun 17 06:16:00 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:16:00 -0400
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>

>It may have already been discussed before, but here is the list of
>distirbutions on McKusick's "The CSRG Archives" 4-CD set:
>
>1BSD, 2BSD, 3BSD, 2.9pucc, 2.10, 2.79, 2.8, 2.9, 4.0, 4.1, 4.1a, 4.1c.1,
>4.1c.2, 4.1.snap, 4.2, 4.3, VM.snapshot.1, VM.snapshot.2, 4.3Tahoe,
>4.3Reno, Net/1, Net/2, 4.4, 4.4-Lite1, 4.4-Lite2, and /usr/src SCCS
>files.

That suggestion got me looking at "The Unix History Graphing Project" at

  http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/Unix_History/index.html

Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
on the McCusick CD set?  Most of the comment-type entries in the
Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
but not real complete.

Do any of the Ultrix versions show up somewhere in the The Unix History
Graphing project?  I know that they're offshoots from 2BSD and 4BSD, but
I wouldn't mind seeing someone annotate when they shot off and what
was changed/added/deleted.  (Did I just volunteer?!?)

Another history question: Anyone know if there's any 2.9BSD-Seismo
distributions kicking around?

Tim.

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jun 17 06:41:27 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:41:27 CDT
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:

> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set?  Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.

The line of True UNIX development is straight:

V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus

There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:

4.BSD-Tahoe -> Net/1 -> 4.3BSD-Reno -> Net/2 -> 4.4BSD-Alpha -> 4.4BSD

1BSD and 2BSD were collections of userland bits without a kernel or a compiler
toolchain or anything else that defines a system and its hardware platform, so
it's generally incorrect to consider them as versions of UNIX, much less as
versions of PDP-11 UNIX. They were bits to be added to an existing UNIX system,
which could conceptualy be anything, although V6 and V7 for the PDP-11 were the
intended targets.

Berkeley UNIX never ran on PDP-11s, only on VAXen, that is, there has never
been a Berkeley UNIX kernel or compiler toolchain for the PDP-11, only for the
VAX. As for 2.xBSD, that's an ex-post-facto backport of BSD UNIX to PDP-11s,
ex-post-facto in the sense that it was made after the torch of UNIX passed from
PDP-11 to VAX, and is a human-alien hybrid of PDP-11 V7 on steroids with dumbed
down VAX 4.xBSD. It comes nowhere near to mainline UNIX or mainline BSD.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Sat Jun 17 07:44:08 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 17:44:08 -0400
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500
References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> 
> > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > on the McCusick CD set?  Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > but not real complete.
> 
> The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> 
> V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> 
> There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:

[... and more spewage ...]

I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
material of this nature on the lists.

Thor

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From pups at mrynet.com  Sat Jun 17 09:02:56 2000
From: pups at mrynet.com (PUPS mailing list)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:02:56 -0700
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <200006162302.QAA73794@mrynet.com>

> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> > > on the McCusick CD set?  Most of the comment-type entries in the
> > > Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> > > but not real complete.
> > 
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > 
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> > 
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
> 
> [... and more spewage ...]
> 
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
> 
> Thor

I second some form of censure here.  I already filter this person's email
when I can, via my mail handler and client, but I am still subjected to his 
non-constructive constant arrogance when included in other's replies.

Obviously I find his tact, social skills, and ethics reprehensible or I
wouldn't have bothered taking the measures I have.  Simply put, people
are welcome to their opinions, but his are bordering anti-social and 
are downright rude and insulting.

Everyone is welcome to opinions and points-of-view, but having such shoved
in faces at every opportunity is intolerable.

Regards,
Scott G. Taylor


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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 17 09:10:53 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>; from tls@rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400
References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 05:44:08PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> > > Most of the comment-type entries in the Unix History Graphing
> > > Project for the BSD releases are pretty good, but not real
> > > complete.
> > 
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > 
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> > 
> > There is also a branch which I call Bostic BSD, resulting from Keith Bostic
> > taking over CSRG and killing it, that goes:
> 
> [... and more spewage ...]
> 
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.

I have to agree.  From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.


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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 17 09:11:45 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:11:45 -0700
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha
In-Reply-To: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500
References: <0006161927.AA01375@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000616161145.G35577@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:27:54PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> I know this of course, I have one.

Of course you do, but others may not.  So why are you wasting my disk
space with this email?
 

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From apgarcia at hackaholic.org  Sat Jun 17 10:16:48 2000
From: apgarcia at hackaholic.org (A. P. Garcia)
Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: "David O'Brien"'s message of "Fri, 16 Jun 2000 16:10:53 -0700"
References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com>
Message-ID: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"David O'Brien" <obrien at NUXI.com> writes:

> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
> 
> I have to agree.  From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.

No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it."

You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jun 17 10:28:59 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:28:59 +1000 (EST)
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jun 16, 2000  5:44: 8 pm"
Message-ID: <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> material of this nature on the lists.
> Thor

While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.

Michael, in order to ease the tension in the mailing lists, would it
be possible for you to write a web (or ftp) page describing your beliefs,
so that interested people can go read it. For example, in future mailings
you could say:

	As you know, I believe True UNIX flows from V6 to 4.3BSD
	but not to 4.4BSD, see http://xxx.xxx.xxx for details.

I'm not asking you to moderate your beliefs or stop espousing them, but
I would rather keep the mailing list inclusive rather than divisive.

For the other readers of this list, it is not possible to stop subscribers
from saying whatever they want. Therefore, if you feel offended, please
try to take any strong exchange of views out of the list. For example, you
might post something like:

	In article by Joe Bloe:
	> I think turtles are ugly.
	I disagree violently with this person's views, and I'll
	take this discussion off-line, so as to keep in charter
	with the mailing list.

I will also change the mailing lists's on-line charter to be inclusive
and not divisive.

Finally, we now have pups@ (PDP-11 stuff) and tuhs@ (generic Unix stuff,
which includes discussion on the Archive). The original posting, and all
the followups, should have gone to tuhs@, so please send your mails to
the right list!!!

Thank you,
	Warren

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jun 17 10:29:13 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
Message-ID: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com>

Yesterday I asked:

>Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
>didn't remember...

Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.)  Is this something
worthwhile to put in the archive?  At the moment, looking at the
timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
"fairly recent" end:

2.9 from 1983
2.9.1BSD from 1983
2.10BSD from 1987
2.10.1BSD from 1989
2.11BSD from the past year

Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my
proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jun 17 10:07:24 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:07:24 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Digest?
In-Reply-To: <394A3D26.86E79289@home.com> from Robert Porter at "Jun 16, 2000  7:43:50 am"
Message-ID: <200006170007.KAA55558@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Robert Porter:
> Is there a way to unsubscribe from the PUPS/TUHS lists and subscribe to some
> sort of digest?  I just can't handle this amount of traffic (much more email
> than I get otherwise).

Send mail to majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au with the lines:

	unsubscribe tuhs
	unsubscribe pups
	subscribe pups-digest
	subscribe tuhs-digest

Cheers!
	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Jun 17 12:09:00 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 19:09:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
Message-ID: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

	I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)

> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
> Yesterday I asked:
> 
> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
> >Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
> >didn't remember...
> 
> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.)  Is this something

	You beat me to it - I was going to respond earlier but got distracted
	("real work" the boss wanted ;)).
	
	It's more than half way to 2.11 though.  Probably closer to 80 or 90%.
	The work had been going on for a year or more since 2.10.1 came out
	and I was all set to distribute it on my own when one of the last
	folks at the CSRG said it should be 2.11 (based on the size and number
	of changes) and a BSD release with USENIX handling the license issues
	and distribution.

	There aren't many major differences between 2.10.2SMS and what would
	be 2.11BSD a few months later (towards the end of 1990 or beginning
	of 1991).


> timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
> "fairly recent" end:
> 
> 2.9 from 1983
> 2.9.1BSD from 1983
> 2.10BSD from 1987
> 2.10.1BSD from 1989

	2.10.2.SMS goes till about the end of 1990 or beginning of 1991

> Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
> step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?

	I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)

	A "diff -r" of that against the first 2.11 tape (which I think I might
	have somewhere) would be interesting to do some time.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Sat Jun 17 13:20:04 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 23:20:04 -0400
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@cs.adfa.edu.au on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000
References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:28:59AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> > On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 03:41:27PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > > The line of True UNIX development is straight:
> > > V6 -> V7 -> 3BSD -> 4.0BSD -> 4.1BSD -> 4.2BSD -> 4.3BSD -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe ->
> > > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus
> > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
> > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
> > material of this nature on the lists.
> > Thor
> 
> While I do not agree with Michael's particular beliefs about True UNIX, as
> I wear the hat of UNIX Heritage Society, I want to encourage his efforts on
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, as I do with 2.11BSD, NetBSD etc etc.

While I largely agree with your sentiments, I note that in responding to
my text above you have clipped out Michael's direct personal attack
on Keith Bostic.  I find this, um, fascinating.

I'll also note that denying Mr. Solokov *this particular forum* for
the spewage of his venom is hardly the kind of governmental interference
with speech that another poster's quotation decried.  I don't see why
PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting insults at the
people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect, catalog, and preserve.

Thor

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sat Jun 17 14:55:04 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 21:55:04 -0700
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com>; from tls@rek.tjls.com on Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400
References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
> catalog, and preserve.

Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.

Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
Source Revolution".  This is on-line at
http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html.  To quote:

    During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
    brought up the subject of the popularity of the
    freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
    possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
    BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
    large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
    could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
    utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
    Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
    
    Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
    development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
    from scratch based solely on their published descriptions.  Their
    only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
    Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
    rewrote.  The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
    trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
    Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
    such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow.  Soon
    the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
    all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.

    Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
    hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
    our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
    over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
    originated in the 32/V release.

With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
should be tolerated.

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sat Jun 17 20:38:09 2000
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:38:09 +0100
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com>
References: <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>
 <200006170028.KAA55686@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
 <20000616232004.A4545@rek.tjls.com> <20000616215504.I35577@dragon.nuxi.com>
Message-ID: <Hf1bqXARU1S5EwcL@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <20000616215504.I35577 at dragon.nuxi.com>, David O'Brien
<obrien at NUXI.com> writes
>On Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 11:20:04PM -0400, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
>> I don't see why PUPS/TUHS should provide a general soapbox for shouting
>> insults at the people who did a lot of the work PUPS/TUHS collect,
>> catalog, and preserve.
>
>Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
>Those that have not heard Kirk McKusick's "History of UNIX at Berkeley"
>talk should go read his "Twenty Years of Berkeley Unix From AT&T-Owned to
>Freely Redistributable" chapter in "Open Sources: Voices from the Open
>Source Revolution".  This is on-line at
>http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html.  To quote:
>
>    During one of our weekly group meetings at the CSRG, Keith Bostic
>    brought up the subject of the popularity of the
>    freely-redistributable networking release and inquired about the
>    possibility of doing an expanded release that included more of the
>    BSD code. Mike Karels and I pointed out to Bostic that releasing
>    large parts of the system was a huge task, but we agreed that if he
>    could sort out how to deal with reimplementing the hundreds of
>    utilities and the massive C library then we would tackle the kernel.
>    Privately, Karels and I felt that would be the end of the discussion.
>    
>    Undeterred, Bostic pioneered the technique of doing a mass net-based
>    development effort. He solicited folks to rewrite the Unix utilities
>    from scratch based solely on their published descriptions.  Their
>    only compensation would be to have their name listed among the
>    Berkeley contributors next to the name of the utility that they
>    rewrote.  The contributions started slowly and were mostly for the
>    trivial utilities. But as the list of completed utilities grew and
>    Bostic continued to hold forth for contributions at public events
>    such as Usenix, the rate of contributions continued to grow.  Soon
>    the list crossed one hundred utilities and within 18 months nearly
>    all the important utilities and libraries had been rewritten.
>
>    Proudly, Bostic marched into Mike Karels' and my office, list in
>    hand, wanting to know how we were doing on the kernel. Resigned to
>    our task, Karels, Bostic, and I spent the next several months going
>    over the entire distribution, file by file, removing code that had
>    originated in the 32/V release.
>
>With what we owe him, I do not think any continual bad mouthing of Keith
>should be tolerated.
>
Seconded!!!
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sat Jun 17 20:36:15 2000
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
In-Reply-To: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com>
References: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Hi --
>
>       I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
>
>> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
>> Yesterday I asked:
>> 
>> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
>> >Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
>> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
>> >didn't remember...
>> 
>> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
>> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
>> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.)  Is this something

>       I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
>
For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
archive.  Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
normally be interesting to the average user group punter?.  This might
have some effects on the archive structure.

Robin

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sun Jun 18 01:04:30 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

David O'Brien <obrien at NUXI.com> wrote:

> Not to mention we owe the entire Open Source BSD availability to Keith.
>
> [snipped description of how Bostic, like a murderous American surgeon, cut
>  out with his butcher knife all the Holy Original True Pure UNIX(R) code, the
>  code that made BSD Berkeley UNIX(R) and not just some little mortal *BSD,
>  and replaced it with cheap plastic prostetics]

It is *this* that I consider Bostic the killer of CSRG, of True BSD, and of
True UNIX for. I don't fscking care whether you call it free or not. The True
UNIX code is free to those who have access to it, in the sense that they can
make arbitrary modifications to it and freely redistribute it within the circle
of accessees. Pure UNIX is completely open source: it is not usable at all
without the source, so everyone who has it has the source. Either you have the
source or you don't run UNIX. No binary-only distributions. Previously the
circle of UNIX accessees was limited to universities, but then they were the
only ones who could afford the hardware needed to run UNIX and the electric
bills that come with it, so this really wasn't an issue. Someone who wasn't
part of a university with a UNIX source license was almost certainly in no
position to run UNIX or have an interest in it anyway. Now the situation has
changed, and many people run PDP-11s and VAXen on a hobbyist basis in their
homes, but the licensing situation has changed accordingly too: now it's a free
clickwrap license.

If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From soren at wheel.dk  Sun Jun 18 01:21:41 2000
From: soren at wheel.dk (Soren S. Jorvang)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 17:21:41 +0200
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500
References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000617172141.A24254@gnyf.wheel.dk>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>

I think now is a good time for you to leave the PUPS list.


-- 
Soren

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From mallison at konnections.com  Sun Jun 18 02:05:01 2000
From: mallison at konnections.com (Mike Allison)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer>

I think I understand what Michael is saying.  Or at least it means something
to me.

I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
PUPS and now TUHS.

Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
machines.  And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).

The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
is fine.  We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team.  But
the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
pertinent to running UNIX System N.n

Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
se.

Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.

I won't fault Michael for his perspective.  But I guess we should agree to
define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.

Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)

-Mike

Mike Allison
Stranded in Utah, USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive


>If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
And
>I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
>about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
are
>still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
>


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From kshuff at fast.net  Sun Jun 18 02:31:18 2000
From: kshuff at fast.net (kshuff)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net>

Michael Sokolov wrote:

> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
> 

  That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
your views
  and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
more "modern"
  hardware and not true UNIX.  We're not all living 20 years in the
past.

  K.S.

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sun Jun 18 03:34:16 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 12:34:16 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006171734.AA02816@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

kshuff <kshuff at fast.net> wrote:

>   That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
> your views
>   and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
> more "modern"
>   hardware and not true UNIX.  We're not all living 20 years in the
> past.

Then why are you on this list?

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From obrien at NUXI.com  Sun Jun 18 04:13:45 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:13:45 -0700
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500
References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000617111345.H69941@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Sat, Jun 17, 2000 at 10:04:30AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.

That is a fine opinion, and one understandable.  BUT, I don't see Joy,
McKusick, or Lefler on your list.  So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
rather than some System III/V + 2BSD??  Joy & McKusick modified the AT&T
kernel quite a bit.  Or did you not know that they touched that code.

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sun Jun 18 04:40:44 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 00 13:40:44 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006171840.AA02908@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

David O'Brien <obrien at NUXI.com> wrote:

> That is a fine opinion, and one understandable.  BUT, I don't see Joy,
> McKusick, or Lefler on your list.

Their work is an *extension* of the Ritchie/Thompson original UNIX, not a
replacement. 3BSD through 4.3BSD are direct logical successors of V7/32V
research UNIX.

> So why is it again that you do 4.3BSD
> rather than some System III/V [...]

Because I believe that 3BSD through 4.3BSD are the real trunk successors of V7
and 32V, not System III and System V (more affectionately known as Missed'em-
five as you can see in the Jargon File). True UNIX is Research UNIX, UNIX that
is for research purposes, not commercial ones. The AT&T Education Software
License I have buried in my desk somewhere prohibits any commercial use. System
III and V deserted this True UNIX mission, but Berkeley UNIX picked it up
instead.

Exactly the same later happened with 4.4BSD and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)


From enf at pobox.com  Sun Jun 18 05:42:48 2000
From: enf at pobox.com (Eric Fischer)
Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 14:42:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>
References: <000616161600.262000b2@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <200006171942.OAA72964@shell-2.enteract.com>

Tim Shoppa writes,

> Is there a readable (meaning "not source code") history of *.*BSD
> on the McCusick CD set?  Most of the comment-type entries in the
> Unix History Graphing Project for the BSD releases are pretty good,
> but not real complete.

Maybe this has already been covered sufficiently, but several of
the BSD releases came with lists of what had changed since the
previous versions.  I've HTMLified the ones I have copies of at

  http://pobox.com/~enf/lore/unix/bsd/

eric

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From clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net  Sun Jun 18 10:23:21 2000
From: clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net (Cyrille Lefevre)
Date: 18 Jun 2000 02:23:21 +0200
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG's message of "Sat, 17 Jun 00 10:04:30 CDT"
References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <em5vbzwm.fsf@pc166.gits.fr>

msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) writes:

[snip]

> If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX. And
> I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
> about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they are
> still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.

are you sure your name isn't "Rev. Don Kool" alias oldno7 at home.com ?

it's a joke :)

Cyrille.
-- 
home:mailto:clefevre at no-spam.citeweb.net Supprimer "no-spam." pour me repondre.
work:mailto:Cyrille.Lefevre at no-spam.edf.fr Remove "no-spam." to answer me back.


From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Mon Jun 19 11:25:02 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:25:02 +1000 (EST)
Subject: List Charter, please
In-Reply-To: <E133jmG-00026n-00@moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk> from Alan F R Bain at "Jun 18, 2000  7:26:31 pm"
Message-ID: <200006190125.LAA67300@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Alan F R Bain:
> Warren, 
> Maybe it would be possible to have list guidelines.
> Alan

Here is the PUPS list charter. If you have violent opposition to it, then
please e-mail me.

	Warren

The PUPS list on minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au promotes communication between those
people who are interested in the versions of Unix which ran on PDP-11s. Unix
is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source code
ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs.

Topics that fall within the list's charter include:

	+ how to install, configure & maintain a PDP-11 Unix system
	+ discussion of PDP-11 hardware issues related to PDP-11 Unix
	+ applications for PDP-11 Unix systems
	+ modification of PDP-11 Unix systems
	+ technical comparisons between PDP-11 Unix systems
	+ anecdotes relating to the history & development of PDP-11 Unix
	+ discussion & announcements of the contents of the PDP-11
	  section of the Unix Archive

Topics that fall outside of the list's charter include:

	+ discussion on non PDP-11 Unix systems, unless they are being
	  compared technically with PDP-11 Unix systems
	+ attacks on particular individuals, groups or organisations
	+ postings which disenfranchise or alienate a individual list
	  subscriber, a group of subscribers, or a particular version
	  of PDP-11 Unix

The list will, in general, not be moderated. However, if a list subscriber
continues to send off-charter postings to the list after warnings to that
effect, then their postings may be moderated.

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 17:58:11 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:58:11 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: 4.4BSD-Alpha in the TUHS/PUPS archive 4BSD area
In-Reply-To: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG> (msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG)
References: <0006162012.AA01527@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <200006190758.JAA24577@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>


 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 00 15:12:55 CDT
 > From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
 > Sender: owner-tuhs at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > Quasijarus Consortium members and TUHS/PUPS archive users,
 > 
 > Today Tim Shoppa has read the HP300 4.4BSD-Alpha distribution on a 9-track 6250
 > BPI tape and I have just put it in the archive. It is in
 > 
 > Distributions/4bsd/4.4BSD-Alpha
 > 
 > Of course we generally don't do 4.4BSD, but we do include it in the archival
 > and preservation section of our project.


Hi Friends,

I really appreciate that. I'm - generally - more a reader than a user
of ancient code, so concentration on a certain version (or
architecture, i.e.  BSD vs the VAX or others) is not as important for
me as is an uninterupted, complete coverage of historical versions.

Having access to this version of BSD4.4 and (soon) all the other
stuff, Tim Shoppa discovered recently, is really GREAT for me.

Please keep everything You can. I think I can predict reliably, future
generations of software historians will be very thankful.

Regards -- Markus



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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 18:11:45 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:11:45 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <m2wvjp88lr.fsf@localhost.localdomain> (apgarcia@hackaholic.org)
References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com> <20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com> <m2wvjp88lr.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > From: "A. P. Garcia" <apgarcia at hackaholic.org>
 > Date: 17 Jun 2000 00:16:48 +0000
 > Lines: 13
 > User-Agent: Gnus/5.0804 (Gnus v5.8.4) Emacs/20.6
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > "David O'Brien" <obrien at NUXI.com> writes:
 > 
 > > > I would like to ask that Mr. Solokov's association with the PUPS and TUHS
 > > > projects be ended if he can not restrain himself from posting inflammatory
 > > > material of this nature on the lists.
 > > 
 > > I have to agree.  From his emails, Mr. Solokov is a rather rabid individual.
 > 
 > No, I agree with whomever it was - I think Patrick Henry - that said
 > something like "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend
 > to the death your right to say it."
 > 
 > You can always send his mail to /dev/null if you don't like it.

I agree. Still I'd prefer (and humbly ask) from Michael Solokov a more
diplomatic attitude. As far as I can see, Mr Bostic has contributed to
UNIX in general and to the PUPS later, which entitles him to being
treated somewhat more respectfully :-)

UNIX is variance, not a one-size-fits-all system.

On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), and it would make me sad, to
see so excellent and noble :-) men fight each other. Let's avoid that,
and let there be no war in the (ancient) UNIX camp.

I hope Michael had no intention to hurt the feelings of Keith Bostic.


Regards -- Markus



 > 

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 18:16:01 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:16:01 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
In-Reply-To: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com> (message from Tim
	Shoppa on Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400)
References: <000616202913.262000b0@trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <200006190816.KAA24598@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 20:29:13 -0400
 > From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > Yesterday I asked:
 > 
 > >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
 > >Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
 > >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
 > >didn't remember...
 > 
 > Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
 > 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
 > Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.)  Is this something
 > worthwhile to put in the archive?  At the moment, looking at the
 > timeline of PDP-11 Unices currently in the archive, we have at the
 > "fairly recent" end:
 > 
 > 2.9 from 1983
 > 2.9.1BSD from 1983
 > 2.10BSD from 1987
 > 2.10.1BSD from 1989
 > 2.11BSD from the past year
 > 
 > Would it be a worthwhile thing to put 2.10.2 up as an intermediate
 > step filling in the ten year gap between 2.10.1 and the current 2.11?
 > I'm worried that whenever I find a metric buttload of Unix tapes that my

Hehe. That seems to be a real danger :-)

 > proposals of adding everything in them to the archive may just be
 > adding too much volume that folks simply aren't interested in.


Hi Tim,

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE. Seriously: If You ever do not want to put
something in the archive, give it to me. I have the impression one
needs the intermediate versions to be ever able to crosscheck the
transfer of features between the diverse branches.


Regards Markus.



 > 
 > -- 
 >  Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 >  Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 >  7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 >  Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927
 > 

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 18:48:59 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:48:59 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Yet Another "where does it fit" question
In-Reply-To: <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW@ruffnready.co.uk> (message from Robin Birch on
	Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100)
References: <200006170209.TAA24691@moe.2bsd.com> <G$mbSLAfS1S5EweW@ruffnready.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200006190848.KAA24676@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 11:36:15 +0100
 > Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au, SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com
 > From: Robin Birch <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > In message <200006170209.TAA24691 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
 > <sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes
 > >Hi --
 > >
 > >       I hope I'm in the right mailing list :)
 > >
 > >> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
 > >> Yesterday I asked:
 > >> 
 > >> >Two tapes labeled "Vol 1 of 2" and "Vol 2 of 2" and then "2.10.2 SMS
 > >> >Unix".  Steven, does this mean you know what's on this and how it's
 > >> >different than the 2.10 and 2.10.1 stuff already in the archive? :-)  Terry
 > >> >didn't remember...
 > >> 
 > >> Now that I've read the tapes, this is a 1990-ish step halfway between
 > >> 2.10.1 and 2.11, as developed by Steven Schultz (and debugged by
 > >> Terry on his 11/70, judging from the comments.)  Is this something
 > 
 > >       I think it would be - I didn't save a copy for myself ;)
 > >
 > For what it's worth I think this brings in an interesting branch to the
 > archive.  Should there be a space for stuff we should hold for purely
 > historical reference purposes and a different one for stuff that would
 > normally be interesting to the average user group punter?.  This might
 > have some effects on the archive structure.

Well, perhaps not the archive structure should be changed. What I miss
is more something like a getting-started-guide: Which versions you
could try first with - let's say the emulator - and how to boot them.


Regards -- Markus


 > 
 > Robin
 > 
 > ____________________________________________________________________
 > Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk
 > 
 > M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome
 > 

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 18:58:21 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:58:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer>
	(mallison@konnections.com)
References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>



 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison at konnections.com>
 > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > I think I understand what Michael is saying.  Or at least it means something
 > to me.
 > 
 > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
 > PUPS and now TUHS.
 > 
 > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
 > machines.  And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).

Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
offspring.

Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's
archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ?


 > 
 > The fact that you COULD run a unix clone -- Linux, Open BSD, what have you
 > is fine.  We can argue that true BSD was a set of improvements or additions
 > to UNIX which may even have been sanctioned in part by the UNIX team.  But
 > the fact that you run Linux, Open BSD, MINIX or a MSDOS clone is not
 > pertinent to running UNIX System N.n
 > 
 > Using the GNU C Compiler is not pertinent to the AT&T K&R C compiler, per
 > se.
 > 
 > Is the ultimate purpose then of the list to keep the machines running
 > regardless of OS, or to run AT&T UNIX on these systems.
 > 
 > I won't fault Michael for his perspective.  But I guess we should agree to
 > define the parameters of the list, or agree NOT to define them.

Well, not to be disprespectful to honorable members of the community
certainly should be a parameter :-)

It makes me sad to see all this.

Regards -- Markus
 

 > Just one insignificant soul's opinion (JOISO)
 > 
 > -Mike
 > 
 > Mike Allison
 > Stranded in Utah, USA
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG>
 > To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
 > Date: Saturday, June 17, 2000 9:09 AM
 > Subject: Re: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
 > 
 > 
 > >If it isn't Ritchie and Thompson's original UNIX code, then it isn't UNIX.
 > And
 > >I want UNIX, in four capitals with an R-in-circle superscript. I don't care
 > >about clones and workalikes and copycats. However "modern" they are, they
 > are
 > >still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
 > >
 > 
 > 

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From leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de  Mon Jun 19 18:59:40 2000
From: leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de (Markus Leypold)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:40 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net> (message from kshuff on Sat, 17 Jun 2000
	12:31:18 -0400)
References: <0006171504.AA02620@ivan.Harhan.ORG> <394BA7D6.52DD@fast.net>
Message-ID: <200006190859.KAA24689@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>

 > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
 > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 12:31:18 -0400
 > From: kshuff <kshuff at fast.net>
 > Organization: I'm not organized
 > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
 > 
 > Michael Sokolov wrote:
 > 
  > > still mere clones and copycats. And I want the genuine article.
 > > 
 > 
 >   That might be fine and dandy for you, but other people do not share
 > your views
 >   and should not have to be criticized or belittled because they run
 > more "modern"
 >   hardware and not true UNIX.  We're not all living 20 years in the
 > past.

And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
genuine article'.

 -- Markus

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From tfb at cley.com  Mon Jun 19 20:32:14 2000
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:32:14 +0100 (BST)
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
References: <0006162041.AA01624@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
	<20000616174408.A20743@rek.tjls.com>
	<20000616161053.F35577@dragon.nuxi.com>
	<m2wvjp88lr.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
	<200006190811.KAA24592@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <14669.63150.572660.30605@cley.com>

* Markus Leypold wrote:
> On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
> VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), 

Weell, I don't know about that.  All them modern Vaxens aren't really
*original* are they?  Got microprocessors in, half of 'em.  Never did
hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
myself.

--tim


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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Mon Jun 19 21:19:11 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 07:19:11 -0400
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>; from leypold@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200
References: <007901bfd875$cb8aaea0$ab7a3fd1@oemcomputer> <200006190858.KAA24686@informatik.uni-tuebingen.de>
Message-ID: <20000619071911.A23440@rek.tjls.com>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 10:58:21AM +0200, Markus Leypold wrote:
> 
> 
>  > Delivered-To: leypold at lesbains.informatik.uni-tuebingen.de
>  > From: "Mike Allison" <mallison at konnections.com>
>  > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2000 10:05:01 -0600
>  > Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>  > 
>  > I think I understand what Michael is saying.  Or at least it means something
>  > to me.
>  > 
>  > I don't have a lot vested here, nor have I always followed the issues with
>  > PUPS and now TUHS.
>  > 
>  > Certainly a big part of this was running AT&T UNIX systems on these
>  > machines.  And, TUHS might only ever be about UNIX as UNIX (R).
> 
> Well, the demarcation lines are not wuite clearly drawn. Only
> yesterday my eyes fell on a paragraph in Peter Salus Book: 4.xBSD
> brought ... improvments ... also a port to the Intel 386/486
> Architecture by Bill Jolitz. Well, 386BSD became FreeBSD and it's
> offspring.

For those trying to keep track of the exact Unix history graph,
it should be noted that the above history isn't quite right.

Jolitz' original 386 port was partially done for CSRG and partially
done for what became BSDI.  A somewhat infamous falling-out during
Usenix resulted in Jolitz *redoing* his 386 port and releasing it
as 386BSD shortly after BSDI released BSD/386.

BSD/386 0.0 was released, then 0.1.  Jolitz kept saying things
about "0.2" but it began to become clear to most people that it
wouldn't be released soon, if ever.  A semi-official "patchkit"
sprung up, and soon most people were running 386BSD 0.1 plus
patchkit X.

Meanwhile, Adam Glass and Chris Demetriou and, soon, a small
number of others, started work on what became NetBSD, a centrally
managed free software project that sought to bring some CSRG-like
focus to the 386BSD chaos.  An early snapshot of this made its
way to the patchkit folks, who declined for various reasons to
participate.  NetBSD 0.8 was released, and a little bit later
the patchkit maintainers (mostly) released FreeBSD.  Though there
was new work -- and would eventually be a *lot* of new work --
there was also clearly a lot of code that came not from 386BSD
or the patchkits but from that pre-0.8 NetBSD snapshot.  Since
these facts are pretty well known among the principals involved
it's always been a mystery to me why Unix history graphs seem
to get the later wiggles in the xBSD line all wrong.

Thor

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From db at aptant.com  Mon Jun 19 22:37:08 2000
From: db at aptant.com (Donald Brownlee)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 05:37:08 -0700
Subject: save everything
Message-ID: <394E13B9.19957855@aptant.com>

My $0.02:


I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual
criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux,
FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an
earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining
several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt
to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been
used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as
well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It
yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original,"
and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a
common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much
else about it, except that its results may depend on alot
of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics
work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking
of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a
work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a
technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved
with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be
more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes that people
thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out to be different.
In this situation, textual criticism might be used to reconstruct a "true," V7
release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up application of the techniques.

In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of
tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as
possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such
a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a "true" release,
it is important that they document their work and not throw away the
tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more
tapes may appear in the future which could lead to
the reconstruction of an even truer tape.

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun 20 00:04:49 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:04:49 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006191404.AA05277@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Markus Leypold <leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:

> And some use emulators within modern systems to get a feel for 'the
> genuine article'.

No, no emulator can give you a feel for the genuine article. You won't get that
feel until you get your toes crushed by an H9642 side panel, get your knuckles
scraped by a BA23, or take a day off with your back hurting after carrying an
RA81 across the campus.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From pino at dohd.cx  Tue Jun 20 00:08:36 2000
From: pino at dohd.cx (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:08:36 +0200
Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices
Message-ID: <20000619160836.A12288@mud.stack.nl>

Hello!

I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want
to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It
only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be 
enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install
bare-bones on that disk?

I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something
bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it.

Your help is greatly appreciated..

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.cx - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
		Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun 20 00:25:44 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:25:44 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006191425.AA05387@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Markus Leypold <leypold at informatik.uni-tuebingen.de> wrote:

> Why can't we just stay on big family ? Of course FreeBSD has it's
> archives elsewhere, but still no reason to divide instead of unite ?

According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX.
His Charter defines UNIX as follows:

"Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source
code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs."

Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original
UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source
licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and
belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it
does not belong in the archive or on these lists.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Tue Jun 20 00:27:09 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:27:09 -0400
Subject: [Newbie alert!] Disk usage of various Unices
Message-ID: <000619102709.262000b0@trailing-edge.com>

>I recently obtained a beast which appears to be a PDP 11/53+, and I want
>to run some Unix on it (Wahey!). I've got a small problem though: It
>only has one(!) RD32A disk (42MB). I know that this probably won't be 
>enough to hold a complete distribution, but which release can I install
>bare-bones on that disk?

You can put the root partition of 2.11BSD on there quite nicely, it'll
live in 8 Mbytes.  Trimming down /usr to 42 Mbytes will depend on what
exactly you need from it, though.  Certainly you can set up a system
with compilers, etc., even though you won't be able to have all the
sources online at the same time.

>I might be able to slip in another MFM disk (but I don't have something
>bigger than 21 MB at hand), provided I can low-level format it.

You want to read Terry Kennedy's document on adding third-party disks
to DEC RQDX3 controllers.  You can find it at

  ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt

Information about formatting, jumper settings, etc., is all there.

Tim.

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From andy.sporner at networkengines.com  Tue Jun 20 00:30:39 2000
From: andy.sporner at networkengines.com (Andrew Sporner)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:30:39 -0400
Subject: save everything and divisiveness
Message-ID: <8D18C4F9CBA1D311900F00A0C990C97F67C8CD@neimail.networkengines.com>

+ my $0.02 makes $1.00

>From my perspective I have watched this argument on this
list about purism and otherwise.

>From a practical sense, historical trueness makes sense
when we are considering changes to something.  That is 
to evaluate whether it was better before or after; with
the ultimate goal of coming up with a truly usefull sytem.
Otherwise O/S researchers would never be able to make
advancements because they would be repeating each others
mistakes.   But to take a lesson from history makes having
such an archive of old source important.

To get hung up on a particular release makes sense I guess
if you are a collector, such as one who collects vases
because that is an art form.  A vase from the Ming chinesse
period is worth more if it has not been modified (for instance
some later owner decides that there are not enough flowers
on the vase--so he adds some).   However with Systems software
this is not the case because it is not a tangible item such
as a processor such as a PDP-11 or PDP-8.  I know many people
that still run PDP-8's (I have one myself), but universally
ever user of the '8 is trying to make the software on it
run better and more efficiently.  

So I would not be one to castigate some pioneers of systems
software whoses names happened not to be K&R.  I am sure that
the both Kernigan and Richie both are marveled at what Unix
has become.  In fact I believe one of them went on to write
Plan-9 which is really off-the-wall compared to their earlier
work. 

Good software is inherrently in a steady process of evolution.
The only piece of software I have ever seen that never evolved
was the classic "Hello World" program that everybody learns to
write on their first lesson in programming.  

OK, That's it...



Andy Sporner


> 
> My $0.02:
> 
> 
> I once wondered whether the techniques of literary textual
> criticism could be used in order to determine whether a Linux,
> FreeBSD, groff -- whatever! -- is in any way derived from an
> earlier work. Textual criticism considers a work by examining
> several or all of the extant textual variations in an attempt
> to determine what the author originally wrote; it has been
> used to reconstruct the "original" texts of the ancient as
> well as some modern writers, such as James Joyce. It
> yields a tree of texts, in which the root is the "original,"
> and the sibling children of any node are the descendants of a
> common, perhaps hypothetical, text. I don't know much
> else about it, except that its results may depend on alot
> of knowledge and informed speculation. The textual critics
> work bottom-up to arrive at an original text; I am thinking
> of a top-down process, working from an original text, to show that a
> work lower in a tree is derived from the original. If such a
> technique were valid at all, its validity would only be improved
> with the availablity of many, many "texts." The techniques might be
> more useful where, for example, there were several V7 tapes 
> that people
> thought were original, but which, on inspection, turned out 
> to be different.
> In this situation, textual criticism might be used to 
> reconstruct a "true," V7
> release tape, and, in this situation, would be a bottom-up 
> application of the techniques.
> 
> In any event, I think that it is important to preserve alot of
> tapes, and to keep them separate with as much information as
> possible about their pedigree. If someone ever did use such
> a technique -- or any other technique -- to reconstruct a 
> "true" release,
> it is important that they document their work and not throw away the
> tapes that contributed to the "true" tape, because even more
> tapes may appear in the future which could lead to
> the reconstruction of an even truer tape.
> 

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun 20 00:37:31 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:37:31 CDT
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
Message-ID: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Tim Bradshaw <tfb at cley.com> wrote:

> * Markus Leypold wrote:
> > On the other side, Michael has ventured, to port BSD4.3 to modern
> > VAXens (a noble enterprise in my eyes), 
>
> Weell, I don't know about that.  All them modern Vaxens aren't really
> *original* are they?  Got microprocessors in, half of 'em.  Never did
> hold with any kind of computer you didn't need a lorry to move,
> myself.

Now, stop right there! I'm an international agent and I'm armed! :-)

To start with, I don't want to use the term "modern", ever. As for what VAXen I
support and target, my primary emphasis is on BI/XMI VAXen, which are very big
and are absolute miracles of architectural beauty. They don't undermine the
original VAXness a single bit. On the opposite, they actually implement many of
the astounding miracles of the holy original VAX Architecture Reference Manual
that the original VAX-11s were only going to. I also place a high emphasis on
Q22-bus MicroVAXen, as they are readily available and don't require special
power, and yet they fully comply with the proper VAX architecture.

There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about
"modern VAXen" are probably talking about. Those are indeed very cost-reduced,
VAXness-deprived, and PeeCee-fied. I do plan on supporting them, just so that I
support every VAX ever made, but I by no means endorse them. They are not real
VAXen.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun 20 00:40:50 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 09:40:50 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX
>  code and thus of no relevance to this group]

By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Tue Jun 20 01:11:00 2000
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 11:11:00 -0400
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500
References: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000619111100.A5557@rek.tjls.com>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:40:50AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> 
> > [snipped discussion of clones and workalikes not containing any original UNIX
> >  code and thus of no relevance to this group]
> 
> By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.

I'm asking you, once more, to take your fanaticism elsewhere.  I'm also
asking the moderator, once more, in light of this, your recent attacks
on Keith Bostic, your totally gratuitous "NutBSD" swipe in your most
recent missive, and your general misbehaviour and abysmal nettiquite in
your time on this list, to cause you to take your fanaticism elsewhere.

Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix"
in quite the same way in which you do?  Of course not.  Your opinion
is the only one that matters, and if anyone else doesn't see it that
way, well, then, by God, you'll just have to spew flamage until he
goes away.  Great.  Really, absolutely what's needed in a preservation
project.

Thor

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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Jun 20 01:14:59 2000
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 00 10:14:59 CDT
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
Message-ID: <0006191514.AA05578@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> Had it ever occurred to you that others might not delineate "Unix"
> in quite the same way in which you do?

In this case my definition of UNIX agrees with that set by the Charters for
both lists.

--
Michael Sokolov		Harhan Engineering Laboratory
Public Service Agent	International Free Computing Task Force
			International Engineering and Science Task Force
			615 N GOOD LATIMER EXPY STE #4
			DALLAS TX 75204-5852 USA

Phone: +1-214-824-7693 (Harhan Eng Lab office)
E-mail: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (ARPA TCP/SMTP) (UUCP coming soon)

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From joe at barrera.org  Tue Jun 20 01:17:01 2000
From: joe at barrera.org (Joseph S. Barrera III)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 08:17:01 -0700
Subject: PUPS/TUHS should not be divisive
In-Reply-To: <0006191440.AA05429@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <000001bfda01$6f987c70$0300a8c0@joebar>

> By the Charter I'm asking you to take this elsewhere.

Bwa ha ha.
That's pretty funny, Michael.


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From RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk  Tue Jun 20 01:29:44 2000
From: RBROADWAY at tbs-ltd.co.uk (Broadway, Rusel)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:29:44 +0100
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <9114940C5E0FD31186950008C7B9A6021845D4@coexch.tbs-ltd.co.uk.50.130.194.in-addr.arpa>

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I agree with Thor: Either grow up or get out!

Rusel Broadway 
Senior Systems Analyst (e-mail Rbroadway at tbs-ltd.co.uk
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From obrien at NUXI.com  Tue Jun 20 03:59:54 2000
From: obrien at NUXI.com (David O'Brien)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 10:59:54 -0700
Subject: The Unix History Graphing Project...
In-Reply-To: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG>; from msokolov@ivan.Harhan.ORG on Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500
References: <0006191437.AA05415@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20000619105954.D2592@dragon.nuxi.com>

On Mon, Jun 19, 2000 at 09:37:31AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> There are also BabyVAXen, which is what NutBSDists and others talking about
                                         ^^^^^

This is *TOTALY* uncalled for.

Warren, Michael has definitely crossed the bounds of lack of respect for
others.  Would you please consider moderating his posts?

-- 
-- David    (obrien at NUXI.com)


From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Tue Jun 20 06:06:24 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 16:06:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PUPS/TUHS UNIX scope.....
In-Reply-To: <0006191425.AA05387@ivan.Harhan.ORG> from "Michael Sokolov" at Jun 19, 2000 09:25:44 AM
Message-ID: <200006192006.QAA21903@uni02du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> According to Warren's Charter, PUPS and TUHS are both specifically for UNIX.
> His Charter defines UNIX as follows:
> 
> "Unix is defined as the set of operating systems who can trace their source
> code ancestry back to the 1st to 7th Editions of research UNIX from Bell Labs."
> 
> Any system that fits this definition automatically falls under the original
> UNIX copyright and may not be distributed outside the circle of UNIX source
> licensees. Therefore, if you think that FreeBSD fits this definition and
> belongs in this group, you must stop publicly distributing it. Otherwise, it
> does not belong in the archive or on these lists.

One might easily consider Warren's Charter definition, following the wording
closely, to mean that it includes successor derivatives of V1-V7.  That
might particularly include the BSD's, be they original CSRG code or
derived code, which can be traced back through CSRG, to V1-V7.

All of the x86ish derivations can be traced back to Jolitz's port which
had its beginnings around 4.3 or 4.3-Tahoe, if I am remembering the source
tree structure in one of my source trees.

Thus, technically, a direct lineal descent case of 386BSD, NetBSD, and
FreeBSD, up through the point of unencumbering, could be made as subject
to Warren's Charter definition, and subject to our archiving scope.

Bob



From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sun Jun 25 11:18:02 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2000 21:18:02 -0400
Subject: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck!
Message-ID: <000624211802.2620014a@trailing-edge.com>

OK, I think I'm figuring out how to install Unix System III on a
11/45.  In particular, I mount the first tape on a MT tape drive, get
a RP04 up and spinning, and boot from tape:

UNIX tape boot loader
UNIX -- Initial Load: Tape-to-Disk

The type of disk drive on which the Root file system will reside,
as well as the type of tape drive that will be used for Tape 1
must be specified below.

Answer the questions with a 'y' or 'n' followed by
a carriage return or line feed.
There is no type-ahead -- wait for the question to complete.
The character '@' will kill the entire line,
while the character '#' will erase the last character typed.

RP03 at address 176710?: n
RP04/5/6 at address 176700?: y
Drive number (0-7)?: 0
Disk drive 0 selected.

Mount a formatted pack on drive 0.
Ready?: y

TU10/TM11 at address 172520?: y
Drive number (0-7)?: 0
Tape drive 0 selected.

The tape on drive 0 will be read from the current position
at 800bpi, 5120 characters (10 blocks) per record,
and written onto the pack on drive 0 starting at block 0.

Ready?: y
Size of filesystem to be copied is 6000 blocks.
What is the pack volume label? (e.g. p0001): p0001
The pack will be labelled p0001.
The boot block for your type of disk drive will now be installed.

The file system copy is now complete.

To boot the basic unix for your disk and tape drives
as indicated above, mount this pack on drive 0
and read in the boot block (block 0) using
whatever means you have available; see romboot(8), 70boot(8).

Then boot the program unixhptm using diskboot(8).
Normally:  #0=unixhptm

The system will initially come up single-user; see init(8).
If you have an upper case only console terminal,
you must execute: stty lcase; see stty(1).

After UNIX is up, link the file unixhptm to unix using ln(1).
        # ln /unixhptm /unix

Set the date(1).

Good Luck!

The tape will now be rewound.


[Now I boot from the RP04]:

#0=unixhptm

UNIX/3.0.1: unixhptm
real mem = 253952 bytes
avail mem = 187584 bytes
unix
single-user
# ls -l
total 805
drwxr-xr-x   2 root     sys           32 Feb 15  1979 bck
drwxrwxr-x   2 bin      bin         1312 Dec 15  1981 bin
drwxr-xr-x   2 root     sys          528 Dec 15  1981 dev
drwxr-xr-x   3 root     sys         1056 Oct 26 14:57 etc
drwxrwxr-x   2 bin      bin          272 Dec 15  1981 lib
drwxrwxrwx   2 bin      bin           32 May 31  1980 lost+found
drwxr-xr-x   2 root     sys           32 Feb 15  1979 mnt
drwxrwxr-x   3 bin      bin          368 Dec 15  1981 stand
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        51382 Nov  9  1982 unixhpht
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        50778 Sep  3  1980 unixhptm
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        49380 Sep  3  1980 unixrkht
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        48782 Sep  3  1980 unixrktm
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        50172 Sep  3  1980 unixrlht
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        49574 Sep  3  1980 unixrltm
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        49704 Sep  3  1980 unixrpht
-rwxrwxr-x   1 sys      sys        49106 Sep  3  1980 unixrptm
drwxr-xr-x   2 sys      sys           32 Aug 19 08:46 usr

But what do I do next?  There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still
on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or
"restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use.  So
what's the next step?

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sun Jun 25 18:52:47 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2000 18:52:47 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Installing SYSTEM III; stuck!
In-Reply-To: <000624211802.2620014a@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jun 24, 2000  9:18: 2 pm"
Message-ID: <200006250852.SAA20841@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Tim Shoppa:
> But what do I do next?  There's a bunch of 5120-byte-record files still
> on the tape, and the "/bin" on the root filesystem doesn't have "tar" or
> "restor". It *does* have cpio, and I think that's what I want to use.  So
> what's the next step?

>From the PDP-11 SysIII in the archive, the files are cpio archives. The
/usr/src/man/docs/setup file explains what to do next. It's in nroff
format, but I don't know what macro switch to use to print it out
correctly. I'll send it in a separate e-mail to avoid clogging up the list.

	Warren


From tfb at cley.com  Fri Jun 30 02:17:16 2000
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2000 17:17:16 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [pups] 11/23 and other qbus machines
Message-ID: <14683.30348.236685.247157@cley.com>

I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23.  It looks like this is kind of
small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have
an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think).

How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this
to things like 11/73,11/83?  I'm wondering if I might one day be able
to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same
rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away
than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away.

Thanks

--tim

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