From nao at tom-yam.or.jp  Tue Nov  4 13:35:37 2003
From: nao at tom-yam.or.jp (Naoki Hamada)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 12:35:37 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [pups] emulex UC01
Message-ID: <200311040335.hA43ZbWx004812@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>

Hi,

A few months ago I bought an EMULEX databook titled "DISK AND TAPE
PRODUCTS HANDBOOK". I found a quite interesting product named UC01. It
is a SCSI controller which can emulate two RLV11/RLV12's with 22bit
addressing. It means that you can mimic eight RL02 drives with a crisp
ZIP drive! Thus you can enjoy various versions of unix (modified v7,
2.9BSD, 2.11BSD a bit harsh? and maybe even modified v6) without huge
cabinets.

UC01 seems quite hard to find and expensive if
available. EZSystems(http://www.ezsystems.com/) has stocks, $345 each.
I want to know if it actually works well with my PDP-11/53 before I
try it. Has anyone experience with UC01?

Naoki Hamada
nao at tom-yam.or.jp

From premke at ess-wowi.de  Tue Nov 11 00:55:13 2003
From: premke at ess-wowi.de (Mario Premke)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 15:55:13 +0100
Subject: [pups] History of 2 BSD 
Message-ID: <EDECLJGBBDNMPACDPHMCMEHCCAAA.premke@ess-wowi.de>

Hello list,

hopefully this is not OFF-Topic too far ... but I wonder when the step from
16bit to 32bit was made in BSD. As far as I can see 2BSD is 16bit whereas
the succesor(s) is 32bit already. Was 2BSD only running on the PDP-11, or
was it ported to other architectures as well? What architecture were the
32bit versions developed on in the beginning?

Thanks in advance

Mario Premke


From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Nov 11 02:26:59 2003
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 03 08:26:59 PST
Subject: [pups] History of 2 BSD
Message-ID: <0311101626.AA10376@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Mario Premke <premke at ess-wowi.de> wrote:

> but I wonder when the step from
> 16bit to 32bit was made in BSD.

It was not made in BSD.  It was made at Ma Bell: the step from V7 to 32V (VAX
port of V7).  The first Berkeley kernel, 3BSD, was based on 32V and ran on the
VAX.  (1BSD and 2BSD were distributions of userland utilities and had no kernel.
Users added those utilities to their existing V6 or V7 systems.)

> Was 2BSD only running on the PDP-11, or
> was it ported to other architectures as well?

2BSD was a collection of Berkeley's userland utilities like ex and csh and as
such not tied to any particular architecture.  While most people used those
utilities on V6 and V7 systems (PDP-11), there is no reason why you couldn't
compile them under 32V (VAX), or on the Interdata port, or whatever.

Don't confuse 2BSD with 2.xBSD, though.  The latter came much much later (after
4BSD) and was a backport of some 4BSD features to PDP-11.  That one does have a
kernel, it's the V7 kernel with some 4BSD bits backported to it.  It's what
evolutionary biologists call reverse evolution.

> What architecture were the
> 32bit versions developed on in the beginning?

VAX.

MS

From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Tue Nov 11 03:28:57 2003
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 12:28:57 -0500
Subject: [pups] History of 32-bit UNIX (was History of 2 BSD)
Message-ID: <20031110172933.B05311F1B@minnie.tuhs.org>

Mario Premke:

  but I wonder when the step from
  16bit to 32bit was made in BSD.

Michael Sokolov:

  It was not made in BSD.  It was made at Ma Bell: the step from V7 to 32V (VAX
  port of V7).

You're a little late: researchers at Bell Labs ported UNIX to the 32-bit
Interdata 8/32 in 1977.  I don't think the resulting system was widely used,
but the lessons learned greatly influenced V7.  In particular typedef and
unsigned were added to C, the compiler became more honest about type checking,
and system-interface data structures like struct stat were installed in standard
include files rather than being copied into every program.

Others ported the system in those carefree days as well, in particular Richard
Miller at the University of Wollongong, but I don't know much about the other
efforts.  But the VAX was by no means the first 32-bit port.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From grog at lemis.com  Tue Nov 11 08:04:50 2003
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:34:50 +1030
Subject: [pups] History of 32-bit UNIX (was History of 2 BSD)
In-Reply-To: <20031110172933.B05311F1B@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20031110172933.B05311F1B@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20031110220450.GC77527@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Monday, 10 November 2003 at 12:28:57 -0500, Norman Wilson wrote:
> Mario Premke:
>
>   but I wonder when the step from
>   16bit to 32bit was made in BSD.
>
> Michael Sokolov:
>
>   It was not made in BSD.  It was made at Ma Bell: the step from V7 to 32V (VAX
>   port of V7).
>
> You're a little late: researchers at Bell Labs ported UNIX to the 32-bit
> Interdata 8/32 in 1977. 

To be fair, this had nothing to do with BSD.

> Others ported the system in those carefree days as well, in
> particular Richard Miller at the University of Wollongong, but I
> don't know much about the other efforts.

I believe the Wollongong port predated the one at Bell Labs.  Peter
Gray tells me he still has the original machine they used, and he'd
like to find a museum-like place to keep it.  No idea whether it
runs.  Greg Rose should know a lot more about this matter.  Greg, are
you out there?

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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From dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com  Tue Nov 11 13:50:21 2003
From: dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com (Dennis Ritchie)
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 22:50:21 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: History of 32-bit UNIX (was History of 2 BSD)
Message-ID: <95960e8851cb1d03920e4fd6b8023dd6@plan9.bell-labs.com>

Greg Lehey wrote,

 > > Others ported the system in those carefree days as well, in
 > > particular Richard Miller at the University of Wollongong, but I
 > > don't know much about the other efforts.

 > I believe the Wollongong port predated the one at Bell Labs.  Peter
 > Gray tells me he still has the original machine they used, and he'd
 > like to find a museum-like place to keep it.  No idea whether it
 > runs.  Greg Rose should know a lot more about this matter.  Greg, are
 > you out there?

Having the original Wollongong Interdata 7/32 might
be interesting to the Computer History museum, though
it might be expensive to transport it across the Pacific.

As for dates: the Wollongong port was essentially
contemporaneous with ours, certainly independent,
and was declared in production sooner (July 1977
vs. spring 1978).  Ours was "in principle"  done by Aug.
1977, theirs by April '77.  Various papers are
gathered at

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/portpapers.html

Greg Rose is definitely still extant.

	Dennis


From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Nov 11 14:01:53 2003
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 15:01:53 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: History of 32-bit UNIX (was History of 2 BSD)
In-Reply-To: <95960e8851cb1d03920e4fd6b8023dd6@plan9.bell-labs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.44.0311111456001.23414-100000@dave.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Dennis Ritchie wrote:

>  > I believe the Wollongong port predated the one at Bell Labs.  Peter
>  > Gray tells me he still has the original machine they used, and he'd
>  > like to find a museum-like place to keep it.  No idea whether it
>  > runs.  Greg Rose should know a lot more about this matter.  Greg, are
>  > you out there?
>
> Having the original Wollongong Interdata 7/32 might
> be interesting to the Computer History museum, though
> it might be expensive to transport it across the Pacific.

Perhaps this would be a better home for it:

http://www.terrigal.net.au/~acms/museum.htm

> As for dates: the Wollongong port was essentially
> contemporaneous with ours, certainly independent, [...]

I recall that they were aware of the 8/32 work, but couldn't use it,
because of the different architectures.

> Greg Rose is definitely still extant.

And I'll probably be seeing him on Friday (assuming he's in the country).

-- Dave


From premke at ess-wowi.de  Tue Nov 11 17:38:26 2003
From: premke at ess-wowi.de (Mario Premke)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 08:38:26 +0100
Subject: AW: [pups] History of 2 BSD
In-Reply-To: <0311101626.AA10376@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <EDECLJGBBDNMPACDPHMCIEHECAAA.premke@ess-wowi.de>


> Don't confuse 2BSD with 2.xBSD, though.  The latter came much 
> much later (after
> 4BSD) and was a backport of some 4BSD features to PDP-11.  That 

Wouldn't that mean to port a 32bit OS (4BSD) back to 16bit (2.xBSD)?
(I wonder as it seems a bit of work to me ... )

Mario

From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Tue Nov 11 18:15:45 2003
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 03 00:15:45 PST
Subject: AW: [pups] History of 2 BSD
Message-ID: <0311110815.AA10731@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Mario Premke <premke at ess-wowi.de> wrote:

> Wouldn't that mean to port a 32bit OS (4BSD) back to 16bit (2.xBSD)?

Yes.  I've never been a fan of 2.xBSD personally.

MS

From tobyhome at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Nov 11 23:08:21 2003
From: tobyhome at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 00:08:21 +1100
Subject: [pups] Re: History of 32-bit UNIX (was History of 2 BSD)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.44.0311111456001.23414-100000@dave.horsfall.org>
References: <Pine.BSI.4.44.0311111456001.23414-100000@dave.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <200BB8A5-1448-11D8-AFC5-000A27AE6AF8@telegraphics.com.au>


On 11/11/2003, at 3:01 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Dennis Ritchie wrote:
>
>>> I believe the Wollongong port predated the one at Bell Labs.  Peter
>>> Gray tells me he still has the original machine they used, and he'd
>>> like to find a museum-like place to keep it.  No idea whether it
>>> runs.  Greg Rose should know a lot more about this matter.  Greg, are
>>> you out there?
>>
>> Having the original Wollongong Interdata 7/32 might
>> be interesting to the Computer History museum, though
>> it might be expensive to transport it across the Pacific.
>
> Perhaps this would be a better home for it:
>
> http://www.terrigal.net.au/~acms/museum.htm

It would not be a safe home until they have solved their eviction  
problem (now due for mid-Dec 2003):
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/19/1053196515142.html
and http://www.terrigal.net.au/~acms/

Given the significance of the machine in question, IMHO it would be  
safer in care of private individuals until an Australian computer  
museum is funded -
http://www.terrigal.net.au/~acms/ 
ACMS%20Prospectus%20rec%20on%2005Feb2003.htm

Toby


From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Tue Nov 11 23:18:24 2003
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:18:24 +0100
Subject: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E428@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>

Ow, c'mon.  In *australia*, how hard can it be to find or make 
space for that priceless collection?  Geez!

Given the nearly-complete collection of DEC systems, HP-Oz should
be deeply ashamed if they don't pitch in, along with other vendors
and local support techs.

We can't expect all companies to maintain a collection that reflects
their history (for tech-practical reasons alone), but we *should* be
able to expect them to help others who do it "for" them...



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Toby Thain [mailto:tobyhome at telegraphics.com.au]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:08 PM
> To: Dave Horsfall
> Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [pups] Re: History of 32-bit UNIX (was History of 2 BSD)
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/11/2003, at 3:01 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003, Dennis Ritchie wrote:
> >
> >>> I believe the Wollongong port predated the one at Bell 
> Labs.  Peter
> >>> Gray tells me he still has the original machine they 
> used, and he'd
> >>> like to find a museum-like place to keep it.  No idea whether it
> >>> runs.  Greg Rose should know a lot more about this 
> matter.  Greg, are
> >>> you out there?
> >>
> >> Having the original Wollongong Interdata 7/32 might
> >> be interesting to the Computer History museum, though
> >> it might be expensive to transport it across the Pacific.
> >
> > Perhaps this would be a better home for it:
> >
> > http://www.terrigal.net.au/~acms/museum.htm
> 
> It would not be a safe home until they have solved their eviction  
> problem (now due for mid-Dec 2003):
> http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/19/1053196515142.html
> and http://www.terrigal.net.au/~acms/
> 
> Given the significance of the machine in question, IMHO it would be  
> safer in care of private individuals until an Australian computer  
> museum is funded -
> http://www.terrigal.net.au/~acms/ 
> ACMS%20Prospectus%20rec%20on%2005Feb2003.htm
> 
> Toby
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> 

From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Nov 12 11:58:13 2003
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 12:58:13 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E428@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E428@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.58.0311121257210.26702@dave.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:

> Ow, c'mon.  In *australia*, how hard can it be to find or make
> space for that priceless collection?  Geez!

We're slowly moving over to a "user pays" system, I'm afraid.

-- Dave

From peter.jeremy at alcatel.com.au  Thu Nov 13 06:49:26 2003
From: peter.jeremy at alcatel.com.au (Peter Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:49:26 +1100
Subject: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E428@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E428@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
Message-ID: <20031112204925.GH52503@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>

On 2003-Nov-11 14:18:24 +0100, "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl> wrote:
>Ow, c'mon.  In *australia*, how hard can it be to find or make 
>space for that priceless collection?  Geez!

Wide open spaces aren't necessarily ideal for storing historical
computers.  You need to store them in a controlled environment to
preserve them and this costs money.

And Australian governments don't seem to place a great value on
history:  Australia is one of the pioneering space nations.  We were
one of the first countries to launch our own satellite.  The launching
sites are recognized as part of Australia's heritage by organisation
such as the Institute of Engineers, Australia.  Our Armed Forces (with
the support of our Federal Government) uses those same launching sites
for target practice.

As far as private companies - it mostly comes down to the beancounters
demanding to know how spending money on preserving obsolete equipment
will help the bottom line.  The Corporate headquarters also generally
see outpost subsidiaries solely in terms on how much cash flows into
the corporate coffers.

On the positive side, Australia has managed to preserve the last
first generation computer extant anywhere (CSIRAC, built in the late
1940's).

Peter

From bqt at update.uu.se  Thu Nov 13 09:06:18 2003
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 00:06:18 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
In-Reply-To: <20031112204925.GH52503@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0311130004540.6494-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, Peter Jeremy wrote:

> On the positive side, Australia has managed to preserve the last
> first generation computer extant anywhere (CSIRAC, built in the late
> 1940's).

Not to demean that effort, but don't the Germans have a Z4 still working
in a museum? That would mean something like 1942.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov 13 10:47:20 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:47:20 -0500
Subject: [pups] 
	A project--buiilding a device to plug into a PDP-11's bus (or
	LSI-11)
Message-ID: <000001c3a97f$b2da5660$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello from Gregg C Levine
I never had the chance to post this here, but one of my reasons for
joining our group, was that I was in the process of designing
something to plug into a PDP-11's bus, (or an LSI-11). I never
accomplished it, because I didn't have the parts here. Nor the
computer either to try out my design. I've now discovered that this
company, Luke International, http://www.lukechips.com/ which was
formed by a group of former AMD engineers, is selling the parts
someone would use to clone a PDP-11 processor.

And indeed the AM2908 matches those bus specs. 

I also recall that the processor in question at one point in its
lifespan, actually used the AM2901 family of bit-slice processors. The
design is still going through the drawing board status, but now that
I've found a place that sells those parts means I am much closer.

Regarding those systems, if someone in the US, and preferably the NYC
area has a PDP-11/53, or an LSI-11, hanging around, please contact me.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )


From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Thu Nov 13 11:30:34 2003
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:30:34 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] 
	Re: A project--buiilding a device to plug into a PDP-11's bus
Message-ID: <200311130130.hAD1UYVZ015853@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>


Gregg C Levine wrote :-

> I also recall that the processor in question at one point in its
> lifespan, actually used the AM2901 family of bit-slice processors.

DEC didn't use 2901's in central processors, but the FPU's for 11/34 and
11/44 used 16 of them to make the 64 bit data path for the FPU. They were
also used in some peripherals like the KMC-11.

A lot of OEM's (like Emulex) used them in disk/tape/terminal controllers.

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov 13 11:48:26 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 20:48:26 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: A project--buiilding a device to plug into a PDP-11's
	bus
In-Reply-To: <200311130130.hAD1UYVZ015853@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <000001c3a988$3bd58040$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
I agree. You will note I didn't say where the medium sized box would
use those parts, just that they did. However, according to three
authors, also AMD engineers at the time of their writings, wrote this
book, "Bit-Slice Microprocessor Design", and the authors were, John
Mich, and Jim Brick. The application notes, that they compiled into
it, suggest that something along the lines of the LSI-11 could evolve
from their work. And indeed a different pairing did just that. 

The book's name, and the author's names were, " The art of digital
design : an introduction to top-down design / David Winkel, Franklin
Prosser". In that book they, completely cloned a PDP-11 system, or
something that could run such software, as we would run on the
families of simulators, and emulators. 
      
So we are both right from a certain point of view. 

And you've got a better idea of what I am up to. 
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of John Holden
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 8:31 PM
> To: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: [pups] Re: A project--buiilding a device to plug into a
PDP-11's bus
> 
> 
> Gregg C Levine wrote :-
> 
> > I also recall that the processor in question at one point in its
> > lifespan, actually used the AM2901 family of bit-slice processors.
> 
> DEC didn't use 2901's in central processors, but the FPU's for 11/34
and
> 11/44 used 16 of them to make the 64 bit data path for the FPU. They
were
> also used in some peripherals like the KMC-11.
> 
> A lot of OEM's (like Emulex) used them in disk/tape/terminal
controllers.
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups


From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Thu Nov 13 13:42:05 2003
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:42:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Re: A project--buiilding a device to plug into a PDP-11's
	bus
Message-ID: <200311130342.hAD3g5Z17144@opihi.ucsd.edu>

> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 12:30:34 +1100 (EST)
> From: John Holden <johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au>
> To: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: [pups] 
> 	Re: A project--buiilding a device to plug into a PDP-11's bus
> 
> Gregg C Levine wrote :-
> 
> > I also recall that the processor in question at one point in its
> > lifespan, actually used the AM2901 family of bit-slice processors.
> 
> DEC didn't use 2901's in central processors, but the FPU's for 11/34 and
> 11/44 used 16 of them to make the 64 bit data path for the FPU. They were
> also used in some peripherals like the KMC-11.

At one time there was a set of application notes that described how
to build a PDP11 clone out of AM2901 bit slices.  I think that the
performance would have been approximately that of an 11/40, while
the time and effort and parts cost would have been prohibitive for
a one-off production.

It is barely possible that I have a set of those notes somewhere,
although it would take a very lucky random search to find them.

    carl
-- 
    carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                 clowenst at ucsd.edu

From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Thu Nov 13 18:51:10 2003
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:51:10 +0100
Subject: [pups] Re: A project--buiilding a device to plug into a PDP-11's
	bus
In-Reply-To: <200311130130.hAD1UYVZ015853@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>;
	from johnh@psych.usyd.edu.au on Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 02:30:34 %z
References: <200311130130.hAD1UYVZ015853@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20031113085110.GO3516666@MrPomeroy2>

On 2003.11.13 02:30 John Holden wrote:

> DEC didn't use 2901's in central processors, 
The VAX 11/730 CPU is build using AMD bit slice chips. It is the slowest
VAX (together with the MicroVAX I) and AFAIK the only VAX that
implemented the complete VAX instruction set.
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Thu Nov 13 18:43:34 2003
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 09:43:34 +0100
Subject: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0311130004540.6494-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>;
	from bqt@update.uu.se on Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 00:06:18 %z
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0311130004540.6494-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <20031113084334.GM3516666@MrPomeroy2>

On 2003.11.13 00:06 Johnny Billquist wrote:

> Not to demean that effort, but don't the Germans have a Z4 still
> working in a museum? That would mean something like 1942.
1942 would be the Z3, the first computer ever. The Z3 that is in the
Deutsches Museum is AFAIK a rebuild of the original one. (Rebuild under
the supervision of Konrad Zuse himself.) I don't know if the Z4 is still
around. Google for "Konrad Zuse" and / or his son "Horst Zuse". Horst
Zuse has put much effort in documenting the work of his father.

I know that there is a Zuse Z23 in Karlsruhe. It was build in 1956,
based on electron tubes, core and drum memory and it is still fully
functional!
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca  Fri Nov 14 02:17:29 2003
From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 11:17:29 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: A project--buiilding a device to plug into a PDP-11's
	bus
In-Reply-To: <20031113085110.GO3516666@MrPomeroy2>
References: <200311130130.hAD1UYVZ015853@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
	<20031113085110.GO3516666@MrPomeroy2>
Message-ID: <20031113161729.GA1843@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Nov 13, 2003 at 09:51:10AM +0100, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> On 2003.11.13 02:30 John Holden wrote:
> 
> > DEC didn't use 2901's in central processors, 
> The VAX 11/730 CPU is build using AMD bit slice chips.

  Since others are also drifting off-topic, I believe that the KS10
also uses 2901s.  DEC seemed to be fond of them for low-cost (and low-
performance) implementations of complex processors.

-- 
David Evans                                         dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

From robinb at ruffnready.co.uk  Fri Nov 14 20:27:28 2003
From: robinb at ruffnready.co.uk (robinb at ruffnready.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 10:27:28 +0000
Subject: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
In-Reply-To: <20031113084334.GM3516666@MrPomeroy2>
Message-ID: <E1AKbAm-0001Mz-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>

jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> On 2003.11.13 00:06 Johnny Billquist wrote:
> 
> > Not to demean that effort, but don't the Germans have a Z4 still
> > working in a museum? That would mean something like 1942.
> 1942 would be the Z3, the first computer ever. The Z3 that is in the
> Deutsches Museum is AFAIK a rebuild of the original one. (Rebuild under
> the supervision of Konrad Zuse himself.) I don't know if the Z4 is still
> around. Google for "Konrad Zuse" and / or his son "Horst Zuse". Horst
> Zuse has put much effort in documenting the work of his father.
> 
> I know that there is a Zuse Z23 in Karlsruhe. It was build in 1956,
> based on electron tubes, core and drum memory and it is still fully
> functional!
> -- 
I searched and found, very very interesting.  Zuse's statement that the Colossus team and himself had been going down similar paths sounds very much like Leibnitz and Newton over Calculus :-)

About 10 years ago I went into the National Air and Space museum in Washington and they had a wind from a Henschel guided missile from World War 2.  They stated that it was built using some of the first computer controlled plant and I always wondered what it was, well now I know.

Again, this is very interesting and I am astounded that it isn't widely known or advertised.  

Robin


From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Sat Nov 15 00:58:50 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 09:58:50 -0500
Subject: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
In-Reply-To: <E1AKbAm-0001Mz-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <003b01c3aabf$d0fb2020$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello from Gregg C Levine
Robin, are you thinking of the V-1 platform? Because that one was
pretty capable for a primitive cruise missile weapons platform. That's
the only one I can think of that fits your description, after all I
did visit the museum a longish time ago, as well.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of robinb at ruffnready.co.uk
> Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:27 AM
> To: Jochen Kunz
> Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
> 
> jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> > On 2003.11.13 00:06 Johnny Billquist wrote:
> >
> > > Not to demean that effort, but don't the Germans have a Z4 still
> > > working in a museum? That would mean something like 1942.
> > 1942 would be the Z3, the first computer ever. The Z3 that is in
the
> > Deutsches Museum is AFAIK a rebuild of the original one. (Rebuild
under
> > the supervision of Konrad Zuse himself.) I don't know if the Z4 is
still
> > around. Google for "Konrad Zuse" and / or his son "Horst Zuse".
Horst
> > Zuse has put much effort in documenting the work of his father.
> >
> > I know that there is a Zuse Z23 in Karlsruhe. It was build in
1956,
> > based on electron tubes, core and drum memory and it is still
fully
> > functional!
> > --
> I searched and found, very very interesting.  Zuse's statement that
the Colossus team
> and himself had been going down similar paths sounds very much like
Leibnitz and
> Newton over Calculus :-)
> 
> About 10 years ago I went into the National Air and Space museum in
Washington
> and they had a wind from a Henschel guided missile from World War 2.
They
> stated that it was built using some of the first computer controlled
plant and I always
> wondered what it was, well now I know.
> 
> Again, this is very interesting and I am astounded that it isn't
widely known or
> advertised.
> 
> Robin
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups


From robinb at ruffnready.co.uk  Sat Nov 15 01:44:21 2003
From: robinb at ruffnready.co.uk (robinb at ruffnready.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:44:21 +0000
Subject: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
In-Reply-To: <003b01c3aabf$d0fb2020$0100a8c0@who5>
Message-ID: <E1AKg7R-000DJv-0Z@anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net>

hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net wrote:
> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> Robin, are you thinking of the V-1 platform? Because that one was
> pretty capable for a primitive cruise missile weapons platform. That's
> the only one I can think of that fits your description, after all I
> did visit the museum a longish time ago, as well.
No,
On the first floor there used to be (could still be there but it was a while ago) a room concerning computing.  In there was a wing, with the skin removed to show the structure, of a Henschel anti-ship missile.  These were dropped by bombers and then guided in by radio.  This was labeled up AFAIR as being manufactured by a primitive CNC system.  Looking at the various web pages from Zuse's writings he produced a measurement system for these so that they could be produced using low tech machining.

Robin

> -------------------
> Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
> "Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
> (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
> (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
> [mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> > Behalf Of robinb at ruffnready.co.uk
> > Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 5:27 AM
> > To: Jochen Kunz
> > Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> > Subject: Re: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
> > 
> > jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:
> > > On 2003.11.13 00:06 Johnny Billquist wrote:
> > >
> > > > Not to demean that effort, but don't the Germans have a Z4 still
> > > > working in a museum? That would mean something like 1942.
> > > 1942 would be the Z3, the first computer ever. The Z3 that is in
> the
> > > Deutsches Museum is AFAIK a rebuild of the original one. (Rebuild
> under
> > > the supervision of Konrad Zuse himself.) I don't know if the Z4 is
> still
> > > around. Google for "Konrad Zuse" and / or his son "Horst Zuse".
> Horst
> > > Zuse has put much effort in documenting the work of his father.
> > >
> > > I know that there is a Zuse Z23 in Karlsruhe. It was build in
> 1956,
> > > based on electron tubes, core and drum memory and it is still
> fully
> > > functional!
> > > --
> > I searched and found, very very interesting.  Zuse's statement that
> the Colossus team
> > and himself had been going down similar paths sounds very much like
> Leibnitz and
> > Newton over Calculus :-)
> > 
> > About 10 years ago I went into the National Air and Space museum in
> Washington
> > and they had a wind from a Henschel guided missile from World War 2.
> They
> > stated that it was built using some of the first computer controlled
> plant and I always
> > wondered what it was, well now I know.
> > 
> > Again, this is very interesting and I am astounded that it isn't
> widely known or
> > advertised.
> > 
> > Robin
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > PUPS mailing list
> > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> 


From nao at tom-yam.or.jp  Sat Nov 15 13:18:32 2003
From: nao at tom-yam.or.jp (Naoki Hamada)
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 12:18:32 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [pups] RL driver for v6
Message-ID: <200311150318.hAF3IWsu012989@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>

Hi.

I backported an RL driver to v6 and salvaged files from
"v6_rl02_unknown" using it (on SIMH). See

http://www.tom-yam.or.jp/2238/rl/

Enjoy!

Naoki Hamada
nao at tom-yam.or.jp

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Mon Nov 17 07:34:07 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 16:34:07 -0500
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 Documents
Message-ID: <000001c3ac89$5ed329e0$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello from Gregg C Levine
Here's a comment from my side of the pond. Al Kossow has a great
collection of PDF files on the PDP-11. Right now I'm grabbing the ones
that discuss my current collection of problems. The location is
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/ 
>From that one, and behind it, sits his entire collection. But that
space is entirely the PDP-11.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )





From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Nov 17 15:19:44 2003
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:19:44 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: History of 32-bit UNIX (was History of 2 BSD)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.4.44.0311111456001.23414-100000@dave.horsfall.org>
References: <Pine.BSI.4.44.0311111456001.23414-100000@dave.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.58.0311171618110.8587@dave.horsfall.org>

> I believe the Wollongong port predated the one at Bell Labs.  Peter
> Gray tells me he still has the original machine they used, and he'd
> like to find a museum-like place to keep it.  No idea whether it
> runs.  Greg Rose should know a lot more about this matter.  Greg, are
> you out there?

Greg is not on this list, but I did catch up with him; he has no further
knowledge of this.

-- Dave

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Tue Nov 18 06:23:15 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:23:15 -0500
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
Message-ID: <005401c3ad48$a2315b20$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello from Gregg C Levine
Can any of you point me in the directions of a website that completely
discusses this operating system, PRO or P/OS? As I recall the DEC
Professional system was basically a shrunken PDP-11. Finding one of
course, would be a good thing.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )





From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl  Tue Nov 18 07:05:33 2003
From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:05:33 +0100
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
In-Reply-To: <005401c3ad48$a2315b20$0100a8c0@who5>
References: <005401c3ad48$a2315b20$0100a8c0@who5>
Message-ID: <20031117210533.GA33626@freebie.xs4all.nl>

On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 03:23:15PM -0500, Gregg C Levine wrote:
> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> Can any of you point me in the directions of a website that completely
> discusses this operating system, PRO or P/OS? As I recall the DEC
> Professional system was basically a shrunken PDP-11. Finding one of
> course, would be a good thing.

A Pro350 was an F11, a Pro380 a T11 (I hope I remember this correctly)
CPU. I think you could also run RT-11 on them. Some big VAX models
had Pro's as console processors/systems. RD5x disk drives on the Pro's.
And special I/O cards which only fit in Pros.

-- 
|   / o / /_  _   		wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl
|/|/ / / /(  (_)  Bulte				

From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca  Tue Nov 18 07:50:21 2003
From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:50:21 -0500
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
In-Reply-To: <20031117210533.GA33626@freebie.xs4all.nl>
References: <005401c3ad48$a2315b20$0100a8c0@who5>
	<20031117210533.GA33626@freebie.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <20031117215021.GA18097@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 10:05:33PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote:
> 
> A Pro350 was an F11, a Pro380 a T11 (I hope I remember this correctly)
> CPU. I think you could also run RT-11 on them. Some big VAX models
> had Pro's as console processors/systems. RD5x disk drives on the Pro's.
> And special I/O cards which only fit in Pros.
> 

  Yeah, that's my memory as well.  Rick Macklem did a port of 2.9BSD to them.
I used one for a time; it took something like thirty seconds to load vi!

-- 
David Evans                                         dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Nov 18 08:12:43 2003
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:12:43 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
In-Reply-To: <005401c3ad48$a2315b20$0100a8c0@who5>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0311172311390.6789-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Gregg C Levine wrote:

> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> Can any of you point me in the directions of a website that completely
> discusses this operating system, PRO or P/OS? As I recall the DEC
> Professional system was basically a shrunken PDP-11. Finding one of
> course, would be a good thing.

Since the PRO is a brain-damaged PDP-11, and P/OS is more or less a
brain-damaged RSX system, feel free to talk about it on info-pdp11. :-)

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Tue Nov 18 08:17:24 2003
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 09:17:24 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
Message-ID: <200311172217.hAHMHObx031279@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>


On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 10:05:33PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote:
> 
> A Pro350 was an F11, a Pro380 a T11 (I hope I remember this correctly)
> CPU. I think you could also run RT-11 on them. Some big VAX models
> had Pro's as console processors/systems. RD5x disk drives on the Pro's.
> And special I/O cards which only fit in Pros.

The Pro380 used the J11 chip. The T11 was a totally different chip, with only
the base instruction set (no multiply/divide/floating point) and 8 or 16 bit
bus

From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Tue Nov 18 08:18:20 2003
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:18:20 +0100
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E478@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>

> A Pro350 was an F11, a Pro380 a T11 (I hope I remember this correctly)
> CPU.
The 380 had a J11, the 350 had an F11.  I *believe* the 280 was
somewhere between an 11/73 and an 11/53, and the 350 was somewhat
like an 11/23.

> I think you could also run RT-11 on them. Some big VAX models
> had Pro's as console processors/systems. RD5x disk drives on 
> the Pro's.
Correct.

If memory serves me right, you had P/OS (a menu-driven branch of the
RT11 system), and Venix, a somewhat Unix-like system.  Given some
work, one should be able to get standard RT working on it.

--f

From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca  Tue Nov 18 08:20:52 2003
From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:20:52 -0500
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
In-Reply-To: <20031117221903.GB34201@freebie.xs4all.nl>
References: <005401c3ad48$a2315b20$0100a8c0@who5>
	<20031117210533.GA33626@freebie.xs4all.nl>
	<20031117215021.GA18097@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>
	<20031117221903.GB34201@freebie.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <20031117222052.GA18130@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 11:19:03PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 04:50:21PM -0500, David Evans wrote:
> >   Yeah, that's my memory as well.  Rick Macklem did a port of 2.9BSD to them.
> > I used one for a time; it took something like thirty seconds to load vi!
> 
> The 380 was pretty much OK in my recollection. 350 was downright slow.
> RD5x drives did not help here..
> 

  You may be right--I never used a 380.  I remember becomming very frustrated
trying to compile rz/sz.

-- 
David Evans                                         dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Tue Nov 18 08:21:46 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:21:46 -0500
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0311172311390.6789-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <000d01c3ad59$30a32a40$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
Johnny, I already concluded that fact from the slightly peeved remarks
returned from some of the regulars on this list.  I might also add, I
only have the software here. I don't have the thing itself. If we want
to discuss this further, everyone who's interested, we can take this
off-list, or on, until we get flagged by the Owner.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Johnny Billquist [mailto:bqt at update.uu.se]
> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 5:13 PM
> To: Gregg C Levine
> Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
> 
> On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Gregg C Levine wrote:
> 
> > Hello from Gregg C Levine
> > Can any of you point me in the directions of a website that
completely
> > discusses this operating system, PRO or P/OS? As I recall the DEC
> > Professional system was basically a shrunken PDP-11. Finding one
of
> > course, would be a good thing.
> 
> Since the PRO is a brain-damaged PDP-11, and P/OS is more or less a
> brain-damaged RSX system, feel free to talk about it on info-pdp11.
:-)
> 
> 	Johnny
> 
> Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
>                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Nov 18 08:18:10 2003
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:18:10 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
In-Reply-To: <20031117210533.GA33626@freebie.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0311172316150.6789-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Wilko Bulte wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 03:23:15PM -0500, Gregg C Levine wrote:
> > Hello from Gregg C Levine
> > Can any of you point me in the directions of a website that completely
> > discusses this operating system, PRO or P/OS? As I recall the DEC
> > Professional system was basically a shrunken PDP-11. Finding one of
> > course, would be a good thing.
> 
> A Pro350 was an F11, a Pro380 a T11 (I hope I remember this correctly)
> CPU.

The 380 had a J11.

> I think you could also run RT-11 on them.

Correct. RT11 have support for the PRO, even if it isn't official.

> Some big VAX models
> had Pro's as console processors/systems. RD5x disk drives on the Pro's.
> And special I/O cards which only fit in Pros.

All I/O is specific for the PRO. They used a very different I/O-system
than other PDP-11s.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl  Tue Nov 18 08:19:03 2003
From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:19:03 +0100
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
In-Reply-To: <20031117215021.GA18097@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>
References: <005401c3ad48$a2315b20$0100a8c0@who5>
	<20031117210533.GA33626@freebie.xs4all.nl>
	<20031117215021.GA18097@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <20031117221903.GB34201@freebie.xs4all.nl>

On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 04:50:21PM -0500, David Evans wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 10:05:33PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote:
> > 
> > A Pro350 was an F11, a Pro380 a T11 (I hope I remember this correctly)
> > CPU. I think you could also run RT-11 on them. Some big VAX models
> > had Pro's as console processors/systems. RD5x disk drives on the Pro's.
> > And special I/O cards which only fit in Pros.
> > 
> 
>   Yeah, that's my memory as well.  Rick Macklem did a port of 2.9BSD to them.
> I used one for a time; it took something like thirty seconds to load vi!

The 380 was pretty much OK in my recollection. 350 was downright slow.
RD5x drives did not help here..

-- 
|   / o / /_  _   		wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl
|/|/ / / /(  (_)  Bulte				

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Tue Nov 18 11:55:32 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 20:55:32 -0500
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
In-Reply-To: <20031117221903.GB34201@freebie.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <000b01c3ad77$0d4a6a40$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
I take it this means that the software written for those things, won't
run on an emulator normally running as a member of the regular PDP
family of machines? Such as the SIMH PDP-11 emulator, or the E11 ones.
Mr. Wilson, (John), mentions the operating system for the PRO, on the
PDF file that describes the E11, both versions as being copyrighted,
and mentions the company name.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Wilko Bulte
> Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 5:19 PM
> To: David Evans
> Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org; Gregg C Levine
> Subject: Re: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
> 
> On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 04:50:21PM -0500, David Evans wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 10:05:33PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote:
> > >
> > > A Pro350 was an F11, a Pro380 a T11 (I hope I remember this
correctly)
> > > CPU. I think you could also run RT-11 on them. Some big VAX
models
> > > had Pro's as console processors/systems. RD5x disk drives on the
Pro's.
> > > And special I/O cards which only fit in Pros.
> > >
> >
> >   Yeah, that's my memory as well.  Rick Macklem did a port of
2.9BSD to them.
> > I used one for a time; it took something like thirty seconds to
load vi!
> 
> The 380 was pretty much OK in my recollection. 350 was downright
slow.
> RD5x drives did not help here..
> 
> --
> |   / o / /_  _   		wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl
> |/|/ / / /(  (_)  Bulte
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups


From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Tue Nov 18 12:08:55 2003
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 03:08:55 +0100
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E47D@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>

Well, those programs emulate both the CPU (which *is* the same as
those found in the PRO systems), but *also* the surrounding stuff
like disk controllers, serial controllers and so on.

It would not be (that) hard to add "PRO" emulation to SimH, if some
sort of hardware specs are still available.

cheers,
	Fred

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gregg C Levine [mailto:hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 2:56 AM
> To: 'David Evans'
> Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: RE: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
> 
> 
> Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
> I take it this means that the software written for those things, won't
> run on an emulator normally running as a member of the regular PDP
> family of machines? Such as the SIMH PDP-11 emulator, or the E11 ones.
> Mr. Wilson, (John), mentions the operating system for the PRO, on the
> PDF file that describes the E11, both versions as being copyrighted,
> and mentions the company name.
> -------------------
> Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
> "Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
> (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
> (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
> [mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> > Behalf Of Wilko Bulte
> > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 5:19 PM
> > To: David Evans
> > Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org; Gregg C Levine
> > Subject: Re: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
> > 
> > On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 04:50:21PM -0500, David Evans wrote:
> > > On Mon, Nov 17, 2003 at 10:05:33PM +0100, Wilko Bulte wrote:
> > > >
> > > > A Pro350 was an F11, a Pro380 a T11 (I hope I remember this
> correctly)
> > > > CPU. I think you could also run RT-11 on them. Some big VAX
> models
> > > > had Pro's as console processors/systems. RD5x disk drives on the
> Pro's.
> > > > And special I/O cards which only fit in Pros.
> > > >
> > >
> > >   Yeah, that's my memory as well.  Rick Macklem did a port of
> 2.9BSD to them.
> > > I used one for a time; it took something like thirty seconds to
> load vi!
> > 
> > The 380 was pretty much OK in my recollection. 350 was downright
> slow.
> > RD5x drives did not help here..
> > 
> > --
> > |   / o / /_  _   		wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl
> > |/|/ / / /(  (_)  Bulte
> > _______________________________________________
> > PUPS mailing list
> > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> 

From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca  Tue Nov 18 13:03:56 2003
From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:03:56 -0500
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E47D@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E47D@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
Message-ID: <20031118030356.GA18752@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>

On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 03:08:55AM +0100, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
> It would not be (that) hard to add "PRO" emulation to SimH, if some
> sort of hardware specs are still available.
> 

  There are these:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/EK-PC300-V1-001_pro300tecV1.pdf
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/EK-PC300-V2-001_pro300tecV2.pdf

and if they're like the spiral-bound book I had back in 1991, they should
do the trick.

  I wonder if I still have that manual somewhere...the Pro that went
with it is long-gone...

-- 
David Evans                                         dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Nov 18 20:37:52 2003
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 11:37:52 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] DEC PRO or P/OS
In-Reply-To: <000b01c3ad77$0d4a6a40$0100a8c0@who5>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0311181136350.28315-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, Gregg C Levine wrote:

> Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
> I take it this means that the software written for those things, won't
> run on an emulator normally running as a member of the regular PDP
> family of machines? Such as the SIMH PDP-11 emulator, or the E11 ones.
> Mr. Wilson, (John), mentions the operating system for the PRO, on the
> PDF file that describes the E11, both versions as being copyrighted,
> and mentions the company name.

Well, the console behaviour (and CSR) is not the same as a
"normal" PDP-11, so it would require special handling to act like a PRO.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From nao at tom-yam.or.jp  Sun Nov 23 10:56:45 2003
From: nao at tom-yam.or.jp (nao)
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:56:45 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [pups] UC08 and Ultrix-3.1
Message-ID: <200311230056.hAN0ujUJ053894@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>

Hi, all.

I finally discarded my RD54 haunted by frustrating retries and burnt
my yen on an Emulex UC08 board. I installed it to my PDP-11/53 and
attached an old DDS2 drive and a 230MB MO drive. Now 2.11BSD runs as
smooth as silk.

Next I tried to install Ultrix-3.1, but I entered an unexpected
weirdness. After entering setup phase 1, the initial setup aborted
saying that it failed to access files under /usr.

Some lengthy investigation revealed that UC08's emulation confuses
Ultrix. The MO drive pretends an RD54 and the installer is quite
confident of it. Once the kernel is in service, it checks the
controller board and identifies it as a KDA50, which is connected to
RAxx drives. Now the kernel treat the MO disk as a RAxx. Since RD54
and RAxx have different partition layout, kernel failes to find /usr
filesystem and the installation process fails.

To avoid this gap, I put a 540MB drive (bigger than an RA81, which is
about 469MB) and configured it to behave as an RA81. The installation
process now goes. After carefully studying src/sys/conf/dksizes.c, I
also used a 230MB MO disk as an undersized RA81 and it seems to work
well.


I also tried SIMH. This time an emulated RD54 worked well, but a tape
drive suddenly stopped during installation. I traced TMSCP protocol
log and found a bug in the tape driver of Ultrix standalone installer,
which hitted hidden incompatibility of SIMH. Here is an ad hoc patch
for SIMH:

--- simh.orig/PDP11/pdp11_tq.c	Mon May 19 20:24:04 2003
+++ simh/PDP11/pdp11_tq.c	Thu Nov 20 18:32:43 2003
@@ -260,7 +260,7 @@
 	CMF_SEQ|CMF_RW|MD_CDL|MD_CSE|MD_REV|		/* compare */
 		MD_SCH|MD_SEC|MD_SER,
 	CMF_SEQ|CMF_RW|MD_CDL|MD_CSE|MD_REV|MD_CMP|	/* read */
-		MD_SCH|MD_SEC|MD_SER,
+		MD_SCH|MD_SEC|MD_SER|MD_RWD,
 	CMF_SEQ|CMF_RW|CMF_WR|MD_CDL|MD_CSE|MD_IMM|	/* write */
 		MD_CMP|MD_ERW|MD_SEC|MD_SER,
 	0,						/* 35 */

But of course you want to fix Ultrix, don't you? Another patch is
here, but it is untested:

--- src/sys/sas/tk.c-	Sun Jan 24 06:24:58 1988
+++ src/sys/sas/tk.c	Fri Nov 21 22:14:15 2003
@@ -247,6 +247,7 @@
 		op = M_O_READ;
 	else
 		op = M_O_WRITE;
+	tk.tk_cmd[0].m_modifier = 0;
 	if((mp = tkcmd(op)) == 0) {
 		printf("\n%s magtape error: ", tk_dct);
 		printf("endcode=%o flags=%o status=%o\n",
@@ -324,6 +325,7 @@
 		sizeof(struct tmscp) - sizeof(struct tmscp_header);
 		tk.tk_cmd[0].m_header.tk_vcid = 1;
 		tk.tk_cmd[0].m_cntflgs = 0;
+		tk.tk_cmd[0].m_modifier = 0;
 		/* need to set the density if TU81 */
 		if (tkcmd(M_O_STCON) == 0) {
 			printf("\n%s STCON FAILED: can't init controller", tk_dct);

Ultrix seems unnecessarily square and not an OS of my type, but a
fairly good testbed for emulated software and hardware :-)

Naoki Hamada
nao at tom-yam.or.jp

From nao at tom-yam.or.jp  Mon Nov 24 16:51:59 2003
From: nao at tom-yam.or.jp (nao)
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 15:51:59 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [pups] UC08 and Ultrix-3.1 again
In-Reply-To: nao's message of "Sun, 23 Nov 2003 09:56:45 +0900 (JST)"
	<200311230056.hAN0ujUJ053894@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>
References: <200311230056.hAN0ujUJ053894@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>
Message-ID: <200311240651.hAO6px33058689@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>

Hi, all.

Here continues my story on a PDP-11/53 with UC08 and Ultrix-11 version
3.1. In Phase 2 "Load/unload optional software" process failed saying:

Open of distribution device FAILED: Try again <y or n> ?

I have to give up once, but after the installer quitted I can complete
installation by typing:

/.setup/setup_osl 53 tu 0 0 0

"53" means PDP-11/53. "Tu" is for "TU81". The optional software
installer distinguish TU81 and TK50 because they do not share device
files. Despite the OS installer creats these device files, it failes
to tell setup_osl this difference. Other part of the installation
process runs with "TK50".

TU81 and TK50 are both TMSCP tape device, but UC08 seems to tell
Ultrix kernel that my DDS2 drive (Seagate STD28000N) as TU81. Since I
can use no other tape drives, I have no idea whether the emurated
drive depends on a real drive or not.

Again I made a quick patch. As always, it is untested.

--- sys/distr/setup.c-	Sun Jan 24 06:26:13 1988
+++ sys/distr/setup.c	Mon Nov 24 15:11:20 2003
@@ -2622,6 +2622,10 @@
 		} else
 			break;
 	    }
+	    if ((tkflag == 1) && (tk_ctid[mtflag] == TU81)) {
+		loadev[0] = 't';
+		loadev[1] = 'u';
+	    }
 	    sprintf(syscmd, "setup_osl %d %.2s %d %c %d", cputyp[tpi].p_type,
 		loadev, rxflag ? rq_dt[rxunit] : 0, loadev[3], rd2);
 	    if((fo = fopen(osload, "w")) != NULL) {

Naoki Hamada
nao at tom-yam.or.jp

From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Nov 28 08:38:17 2003
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 08:38:17 +1000
Subject: [pups] Any SMP PDP11 platforms?
Message-ID: <20031127223817.GA94863@minnie.tuhs.org>

Hi all,
	I stumbled across this reference to a 1975 Masters thesis:

de Brito Meyer. W., and Hawley, J.A.. III. Munix. a multiprocessor version
of UNIX. Master's thesis, Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, Calif.. 1975.
Description of dual processor Unix.

Can anybody tell me what PDP11 platforms around 1975 had multi-CPU
capability? Also, if anybody has further information about Munix,
please let me know!

Thanks in advance for any help. I've trawled thru the Unix Archive
with no results.

Cheers,
	Warren


From bqt at update.uu.se  Fri Nov 28 13:09:02 2003
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 04:09:02 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Any SMP PDP11 platforms?
In-Reply-To: <20031127223817.GA94863@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0311280407380.25678-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Warren Toomey wrote:

> Hi all,
> 	I stumbled across this reference to a 1975 Masters thesis:
> 
> de Brito Meyer. W., and Hawley, J.A.. III. Munix. a multiprocessor version
> of UNIX. Master's thesis, Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, Calif.. 1975.
> Description of dual processor Unix.
> 
> Can anybody tell me what PDP11 platforms around 1975 had multi-CPU
> capability? Also, if anybody has further information about Munix,
> please let me know!
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help. I've trawled thru the Unix Archive
> with no results.

I remember that CMU built a MP system out of 11/40 systems...
Search for C.mmp (if my memory is correct).

I think they built some special hardware for this. And since these
machines don't have a cache, it makes life easier...

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Fri Nov 28 16:16:13 2003
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 22:16:13 -0800
Subject: [pups] Any SMP PDP11 platforms?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0311280407380.25678-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0311280407380.25678-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <1070000173.3354.31.camel@nazgul.shiresoft.com>

On Thu, 2003-11-27 at 19:09, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Nov 2003, Warren Toomey wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 	I stumbled across this reference to a 1975 Masters thesis:
> > 
> > de Brito Meyer. W., and Hawley, J.A.. III. Munix. a multiprocessor version
> > of UNIX. Master's thesis, Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, Calif.. 1975.
> > Description of dual processor Unix.
> > 
> > Can anybody tell me what PDP11 platforms around 1975 had multi-CPU
> > capability? Also, if anybody has further information about Munix,
> > please let me know!
> > 
> > Thanks in advance for any help. I've trawled thru the Unix Archive
> > with no results.
> 
> I remember that CMU built a MP system out of 11/40 systems...
> Search for C.mmp (if my memory is correct).

C.MMP was 12 11/40's and 4 11/20's.  Each processor had 4KW of local
memory + the 4KW I/O page.  The rest of the memory (1.2MW) was
accessible through a "cross-point" switch (ie it wasn't a common memory
bus...think of it as 16 port memory -- there was no memory contention
unless 2 processors wanted to access the same page (4KW) of memory).

In addition to the cross-point switch there was special IPC
(Inter-Processor Communication) hardware to allow the processors to
interrupt and communicate with each other.

The O/S that was run was Hydra a very radical capability based system
(ie everything was represented as a capability -- files, programs, I/O,
etc).  If you didn't have a capability for something you didn't even
know it existed.  It was very cool!

Somewhere I still have my "Hydra Songbook" which contains a bunch of
details + kernel calls about Hydra.

There was a predecessor (prototype) that supported either 2 or 4
11/40s.  I remember seeing it in the same machine room as C. but don't
remember what it being used for at the time as it was "discarded" from
the C. project.

> 
> I think they built some special hardware for this. And since these
> machines don't have a cache, it makes life easier...
> 
-- 

TTFN - Guy


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Sat Nov 29 19:27:04 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:27:04 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [pups] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code
In-Reply-To: <E1AProP-00046p-S3@fencepost.gnu.org>
References: <1069759627.3fc33c8bf250a@www.paradise.net.nz>
 <E1AOtEc-0004E2-NC@fencepost.gnu.org>
 <1069931747.3fc5dce357a72@www.paradise.net.nz>
 <E1AProP-00046p-S3@fencepost.gnu.org>
Message-ID: <1070098024.3fc8666877175@www.paradise.net.nz>

In that case, do you have any objections to me siccing the TUHS(The Unix 
Heritage Soc.)http://www.tuhs.org/ /PUPS(PDP11 Unix Preservation 
Soc.)http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/ people on to it? 
 
It is something that interests us, and there'll be at least one list member 
within driving range of Cambridge, Mass., with plenty of time to examine the 
tape. 
 
I'll cc' this ove to those lists and let anyone who's interested, get in touch 
with you. 
 
Thanks heaps. 
 
Wesley Parish 
 
Quoting Richard Stallman <rms at gnu.org>: 
 
> I don't know where to find a copy of TRIX. I saw a cartridge tape 
> recently that has some Nu machine software, and might have TRIX, 
> but I don't know. I don't have a drive to read the tape with 
> or the time to do it. 
>   
 
 
 
"I me.  Shape middled me.  I would come out into hot!"  
I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the  
other horizon.  

From robinb at ruffnready.co.uk  Sat Nov 29 21:33:35 2003
From: robinb at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:33:35 +0000
Subject: [pups] Sums - help needed
Message-ID: <6TKZbWAPQIy$EwSQ@falstaf.demon.co.uk>

This is rather off topic I know but the people in this group stand a 
good chance of being able to help, so apologies.

Now, I am struggling with the sums involved in Reed Solomon 
encoding/decoding.  Can anyone walk me through a couple of worked 
examples?

Cheers

Robin
-- 
Robin Birch


From spedraja at ono.com  Sun Nov 30 02:13:31 2003
From: spedraja at ono.com (SP)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 17:13:31 +0100
Subject: [pups] OT: Searching source code
References: <d698c1b2.c1b2d698@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <020201c3b693$bbdbd560$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup>

Hello. I am searching the source code for Veronica Gopher Search System and
Archie System. The places where these code could be obtained in some moment
are closed. Someone has some of these available in some place ? I should
agree to obtain one copy.

This is involved in some work I'm doing to put alive one machine with some
deprecated Inet services up and running. I was success with gopher and wais,
but I should like to put these other too. The final goal would be to
translate all the code to modern platforms.

Thanks and Greetings

-----
Sergio Pedraja
Santander
Cantabria - Spain




From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Sun Nov 30 09:04:26 2003
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:04:26 +0100
Subject: [pups] Mini UNIX (V6) and V7 tapes found
Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E4EF@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>

Hi all,

Looks liek I ran into a bunchof really old and useful tapes
here.  Two tapes come from Bell Labs, and seem to contain the
official Mini UNIX (Sixth Edition) and the official UNIX,
Seventh Edition.

Dennis (dmr): can you verify that Bell wrote these on magtapes
from Graham Magnetics, with blue inside label?  All the stickers
and such seem "real".  The V7 tape is dated 10/15/79, the V7 one
is from 1977.

Images available on request.. still wanna know if these are real
ones, or locally-modified ones.

Cheers,
	Fred

From cube1 at charter.net  Sun Nov 30 13:20:12 2003
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 21:20:12 -0600
Subject: [pups] Mini UNIX (V6) and V7 tapes found
In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E4EF@mwsrv04.microwalt.n
 l>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20031129211802.0207db20@cirithi>

FYI, the archives should already have Mini-Unix 6th Edition.  (I provided 
the "rescue" copy).  As far as I know, it was an unaltered original, so you 
ought to be able to compare yours with that one.

Jay Jaeger

At 12:04 AM 11/30/2003 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi all,
>
>Looks liek I ran into a bunchof really old and useful tapes
>here.  Two tapes come from Bell Labs, and seem to contain the
>official Mini UNIX (Sixth Edition) and the official UNIX,
>Seventh Edition.
>
>Dennis (dmr): can you verify that Bell wrote these on magtapes
>from Graham Magnetics, with blue inside label?  All the stickers
>and such seem "real".  The V7 tape is dated 10/15/79, the V7 one
>is from 1977.
>
>Images available on request.. still wanna know if these are real
>ones, or locally-modified ones.
>
>Cheers,
>         Fred
>_______________________________________________
>PUPS mailing list
>PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
>http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at charter.net



From Pat.Villani at hp.com  Sat Nov  1 00:26:33 2003
From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 09:26:33 -0500
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <200310312313.03329.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com> <3F992C00.7090607@hp.com>
	<3FA10A89.7090901@hp.com> <200310312313.03329.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <3FA27119.9050704@hp.com>

Silly lawyers :-)  I know I'm good, but building in all the HP-UX 
features in a few months?  Not that good (or modest for that matter).

Hm, 32V-x86 huh?  Maybe, but I'd like to make it fairly portable and 
have a number of targets built from the same source tree.  I don't know 
if that will ever happen, but I don't want to design it out either by 
name or file partitioning.  Maybe we can address the project name at a 
later date.

I'll keep the VAX port alive throughout the project by making sure I can 
cross compile a clean VAX kernel at every milestone.  There may still be 
a VAX in the building somewhere.  Even if one was around, I won't be 
testing the VAX port thanks to HP legal.  We're now cleaning house of 
alpha systems, so a VAX is almost impossible to locate.  Darn mergers 
keeps wiping them out, like that asteroid and dinosaurs years ago ;-)

Progress: I'm working on the make file.  I'm trying to get a clean build 
by substituting stubs for the VAX code I ripped out.  Once done, I can 
concentrate on x86 equivalents.

Device drivers: I have keyboard and character cell VGA code I can use. 
I had been planning on adapting the Hale Landis ATA code from 
http://www.ata-atapi.com/, and the Thix floppy driver from 
http://www.hulubei.net/tudor/thix/ is probably a good piece of code to 
model the 32V driver on.

Pat

Wesley Parish wrote:

> It's downloaded.
> 
> I would suggest renaming it to something like 32V-x86, though - makes it 
> easier to remember it's not going to be precisely the same as 32V for VAX.
> 
> In relation to corporate caveats, the only way you could actually compete with 
> HP is if somehow, in a matter of months, you redid the entire development of 
> BSD and SVRx, up to the stage HP-UX currently is at.
> 
> Oh well, time for me to brush off my Pajari book on Unix device drivers and 
> see if I can make the grade! ;)
> 
> Wesley Parish




From list-tuhs at cosmic.com  Sat Nov  1 01:48:13 2003
From: list-tuhs at cosmic.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox)
Date: 31 Oct 2003 10:48:13 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Unix > 7?
Message-ID: <7rn0bhjtmq.fsf@ni3.sandstorm.net>

Apologies if this is a FAQ, but is there any prayer of getting 8th,
9th and 10th edition Unix released under some sort of public or
educational licence?

Now that there are emulators freely available which are capable of
running 32V-derived Unix, there would be some practical educational
value in having them available; and I for one would be utterly
thrilled to be able to see them "in action" (as well as see more of
the evolutionary steps from research Unix on to Plan 9).

cheers,
--Mirian

From Robertdkeys at aol.com  Sat Nov  1 08:37:47 2003
From: Robertdkeys at aol.com (Robertdkeys at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:37:47 EST
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
Message-ID: <1d3.138fde73.2cd43e3b@aol.com>

Or, for something really wierd...., how about porting 32V to
the modern VAXen, such as the scsi 3000 or 4000 class
machines?  x86 is nice, and good to do because of its
generic ubiquity, but somehow it ought to roll again on
something, VAX, too.....(:+}}... just for usable posterity.
How much of a chore would it be to port from say an
Ultrix box?  The tool chain should be basically intact.
Mebbie it is time to dust off our old VAX 3000 M38 crates.

There I go thinking out loud...., again.....

Bob Keys

From Robertdkeys at aol.com  Sat Nov  1 08:45:25 2003
From: Robertdkeys at aol.com (Robertdkeys at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 17:45:25 EST
Subject: [TUHS] Unix > 7?
Message-ID: <153.26231b4f.2cd44005@aol.com>

There exists in one of our listmembers archives the last
running V10 UNIX for VAX on I believe MVII or MVIII class
machines.  The availability of it remains a bit in limbo.
But, it would be nice to have that available in the public
archives, if I could make the suggestion.  I would be of
the opinion, also, that it would be nice to have them in
the publicly available arena for educational, hobby, or
whatever the current nomenclature is, use.  Perhaps
if that person is listening, the subject might be approachable
to whomever controls the legalese mumbo-jumbo.  It is a
long-shot, but ya never know if ya don't ask.....(:+}}...

Bob Keys

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Sat Nov  1 09:53:32 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:53:32 -0500
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <1d3.138fde73.2cd43e3b@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004801c3a00a$44e548a0$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
I don't know, it makes sense. Sort of. There's nothing wrong with
thinking out loud, I do that all the time here. 

As for recreating that world, all I can say is why not? There's
technology out there waiting to be used, and talent to provide for it.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Robertdkeys at aol.com
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 5:38 PM
> To: Pat.Villani at hp.com; wes.parish at paradise.net.nz
> Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V
...)
> 
> Or, for something really wierd...., how about porting 32V to
> the modern VAXen, such as the scsi 3000 or 4000 class
> machines?  x86 is nice, and good to do because of its
> generic ubiquity, but somehow it ought to roll again on
> something, VAX, too.....(:+}}... just for usable posterity.
> How much of a chore would it be to port from say an
> Ultrix box?  The tool chain should be basically intact.
> Mebbie it is time to dust off our old VAX 3000 M38 crates.
> 
> There I go thinking out loud...., again.....
> 
> Bob Keys
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From patv at monmouth.com  Mon Nov  3 15:03:48 2003
From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 00:03:48 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32V kernel update
Message-ID: <3FA5E1B4.3000405@monmouth.com>

Uploaded new kernel archive.  Reworked Makefile.  I got it to compile 
with a stub file.  Still much work rewriting machine dependent code.

Latest is 32v-031102-01.tar.gz.  Available via anonymous ftp at 
sever.opensourcedepot.com.

Pat



From wkt at tuhs.org  Mon Nov  3 16:00:55 2003
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 16:00:55 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] 32V kernel update
In-Reply-To: <3FA5E1B4.3000405@monmouth.com>
References: <3FA5E1B4.3000405@monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <20031103060055.GA32160@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 12:03:48AM -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> Uploaded new kernel archive.  Reworked Makefile.  I got it to compile 
> with a stub file.  Still much work rewriting machine dependent code.
> Latest is 32v-031102-01.tar.gz.  Available via anonymous ftp at 
> sever.opensourcedepot.com.
> Pat

You guys need a name. How about 32I, I stands for Intel.
Just an idea.

	Warren

From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Mon Nov  3 17:52:34 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 20:52:34 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] 32V kernel update
In-Reply-To: <20031103060055.GA32160@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <3FA5E1B4.3000405@monmouth.com>
 <20031103060055.GA32160@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <200311032052.34273.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

That's cool - I for Intel as V for Vax, and so I expect we'll have S for 
Sparc, A for ARM, P for PowerPC and Z for the z/series - just kidding ... ;)

Wesley Parish

On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:00, Warren Toomey wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 12:03:48AM -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> > Uploaded new kernel archive.  Reworked Makefile.  I got it to compile
> > with a stub file.  Still much work rewriting machine dependent code.
> > Latest is 32v-031102-01.tar.gz.  Available via anonymous ftp at
> > sever.opensourcedepot.com.
> > Pat
>
> You guys need a name. How about 32I, I stands for Intel.
> Just an idea.
>
> 	Warren
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From asbesto at freaknet.org  Mon Nov  3 19:49:16 2003
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 09:49:16 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] pray for us ! pdp11/34 operation! :)
Message-ID: <20031103094916.GE2101@freaknet.org>


pray for us !!!

in these days we will try to change the broken chip on the pdp11/34
RL01 controller board. 

some details will follow - we will put online as much information and
images as possibile.
 
-- 
[asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on  keyservers]
[ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ]
[http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto IW9HGS http://kyuzz.org/radiocybernet]
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From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Mon Nov  3 20:48:21 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:48:21 +1300
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <oprx0h6gtdrveh1e@smtp.borf.com>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
 <200311022346.34747.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
 <oprx0h6gtdrveh1e@smtp.borf.com>
Message-ID: <200311032348.21316.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

Just an update - I'm now compiling ~/[...]/32V/usr/src/libc/gen to *.o using 
gcc set with -I../../include .  Most of them compile smoothly.

I hope I'll have most of the library compiled to *.o soon, enough for using as 
the basis for compiling the utilities to 32I.

Wesley Parish

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From masouds at stormbird.org  Tue Nov  4 00:54:48 2003
From: masouds at stormbird.org (masouds)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 09:54:48 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32V kernel update
In-Reply-To: <3FA5E1B4.3000405@monmouth.com>
References: <3FA5E1B4.3000405@monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <3FA66C38.9040805@stormbird.org>

Hi!
I was wondering whether you can put it into some CVS (readonly access 
for public) so people can track changes more easily.
thanks,
Masoud
Pat Villani wrote:

> Uploaded new kernel archive.  Reworked Makefile.  I got it to compile 
> with a stub file.  Still much work rewriting machine dependent code.
>
> Latest is 32v-031102-01.tar.gz.  Available via anonymous ftp at 
> sever.opensourcedepot.com.
>
> Pat
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs




From Pat.Villani at hp.com  Tue Nov  4 01:07:40 2003
From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:07:40 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32V kernel update
In-Reply-To: <3FA66C38.9040805@stormbird.org>
References: <3FA5E1B4.3000405@monmouth.com> <3FA66C38.9040805@stormbird.org>
Message-ID: <3FA66F3C.2030007@hp.com>

That is the plan.

Pat

masouds wrote:

> Hi!
> I was wondering whether you can put it into some CVS (readonly access 
> for public) so people can track changes more easily.
> thanks,
> Masoud
> Pat Villani wrote:
> 
>> Uploaded new kernel archive.  Reworked Makefile.  I got it to compile 
>> with a stub file.  Still much work rewriting machine dependent code.
>>
>> Latest is 32v-031102-01.tar.gz.  Available via anonymous ftp at 
>> sever.opensourcedepot.com.
>>
>> Pat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TUHS mailing list
>> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs



From Pat.Villani at hp.com  Tue Nov  4 01:34:23 2003
From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 10:34:23 -0500
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <200311032348.21316.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
	<200311022346.34747.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
	<oprx0h6gtdrveh1e@smtp.borf.com>
	<200311032348.21316.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <3FA6757F.2000702@hp.com>

Good progress.  I'll probably use a linux like system call mechanism, so 
expect an inline function for the system calls.

Pat

Wesley Parish wrote:

> Just an update - I'm now compiling ~/[...]/32V/usr/src/libc/gen to *.o using 
> gcc set with -I../../include .  Most of them compile smoothly.
> 
> I hope I'll have most of the library compiled to *.o soon, enough for using as 
> the basis for compiling the utilities to 32I.
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 



From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Tue Nov  4 19:56:50 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 22:56:50 +1300
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <3FA6757F.2000702@hp.com>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
 <200311032348.21316.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> <3FA6757F.2000702@hp.com>
Message-ID: <200311042256.50072.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

I'm trying to work out whether or not gcc takes a look at its own header files 
before or after it looks at the ones I've set it to look at - I got some 
weird warnings and error messages before I expanded the -I to 

gcc -I./../../include -I./../../include/sys -I./../sys/h

Still need the *.s files in the libraries dealt with, and as before, I know 
nothing of the VAX assembler syntax and mostly x86 in Intel syntax.

If anyone wants to join in with this, I would be very, very grateful.

Wesley Parish

P.S.  I've got to redo the utilities - I think that once I get the libraries 
sorted out, the utilities will be easy meat.

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 04:34, Pat Villani wrote:
> Good progress.  I'll probably use a linux like system call mechanism, so
> expect an inline function for the system calls.
>
> Pat
>
> Wesley Parish wrote:
> > Just an update - I'm now compiling ~/[...]/32V/usr/src/libc/gen to *.o
> > using gcc set with -I../../include .  Most of them compile smoothly.
> >
> > I hope I'll have most of the library compiled to *.o soon, enough for
> > using as the basis for compiling the utilities to 32I.
> >
> > Wesley Parish

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From Pat.Villani at hp.com  Tue Nov  4 23:51:24 2003
From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 08:51:24 -0500
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <200311042256.50072.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
	<200311032348.21316.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> <3FA6757F.2000702@hp.com>
	<200311042256.50072.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <3FA7AEDC.3000602@hp.com>

For what you're doing, I think you'll want to add -nostdinc, and 
-nodefaultlibs to your gcc command line.  The -nostdinc option stops the 
compiler from looking at the standard include path files, and the 
-nodefaultlibs option causes the compiler to not use any of the gcc 
libraries while still using the standard startup file.  You'll have to 
supply the paths to the headers and libraries yourself.

In case I'm wrong, and you need to supply your own startup code as well, 
change the -nodefaultlibs option to -nostdlib.  That drops all standard 
startup code and libraries from the build.  It's the set of options I'm 
using in the current kernel build (to be released next week some time).

According to the gcc docs, the compiler may generate calls to memcmp, 
memset, and memcpy.  That means they'll be the first calls you'll have 
to implement in your libraries.

Pat

Wesley Parish wrote:
> I'm trying to work out whether or not gcc takes a look at its own header files 
> before or after it looks at the ones I've set it to look at - I got some 
> weird warnings and error messages before I expanded the -I to 
> 
> gcc -I./../../include -I./../../include/sys -I./../sys/h
> 
> Still need the *.s files in the libraries dealt with, and as before, I know 
> nothing of the VAX assembler syntax and mostly x86 in Intel syntax.
> 
> If anyone wants to join in with this, I would be very, very grateful.
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 
> P.S.  I've got to redo the utilities - I think that once I get the libraries 
> sorted out, the utilities will be easy meat.
> 
> On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 04:34, Pat Villani wrote:
> 
>>Good progress.  I'll probably use a linux like system call mechanism, so
>>expect an inline function for the system calls.
>>
>>Pat
>>
>>Wesley Parish wrote:
>>
>>>Just an update - I'm now compiling ~/[...]/32V/usr/src/libc/gen to *.o
>>>using gcc set with -I../../include .  Most of them compile smoothly.
>>>
>>>I hope I'll have most of the library compiled to *.o soon, enough for
>>>using as the basis for compiling the utilities to 32I.
>>>
>>>Wesley Parish
> 
> 



From asbesto at freaknet.org  Wed Nov  5 01:00:38 2003
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 15:00:38 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] pray for us ! pdp11/34 salvation, continued.
In-Reply-To: <20031103094916.GE2101@freaknet.org>
References: <20031103094916.GE2101@freaknet.org>
Message-ID: <20031104150038.GB9037@freaknet.org>

Il Mon, Nov 03, 2003 at 09:49:16AM +0000, asbesto rigurgitava:

i quote myself, due to some imprecision (i have a really bad memory,
maybe i have some chip to change inside my mind :)))

> in these days we will try to change the broken chip on the pdp11/34
> RL01 controller board. 

No. the "broken" board is the M7891, 128Kx18 bit MOS memory. The
broken chip is E15, a simple SN74LS175.

here's the list of the messages in which i first described our 
problem; the messages start at Tue, 15 Oct 2002 07:46:35 +0000, 
and they can be find on the mailing list archive here, 
http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs.mbox/tuhs.mbox

A more precise description of the problem was in a message
dated Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:00:37 +0000:
--------
the M7891 board (128K x 18 bit MOS MEMORY MODULE) have the D2 red=20
led light turned ON when turning on the CPU !

this means PARITY ERROR on this board 

checking the board we found 2 problems:

1) a 74LS175 chip named E15 on our schematic diagram, that seem
   phisically BROKEN on an edge (there is a fessure on the plastic
   DIP package). i can't change it now because i don't have a=20
   soldering station here to do a nice job, but looking the chip i
   think it may work...

2) a 5 Kohm 4-resistor bridge named R22 on our diagram, that is phisically
   BROKEN. this bridge give +5V on signals named DATA OC L, CSR OC L, OC L
   and X ADD OC L. i changed it with a 4.7Kohm 4-resistor bridge, without
   any result.

---------

Well

what i did for now is to cut the pin of the broken chip, without
desoldering. I will solder the new chip on the cutted pins, to avoid
desoldering the board. 

Some images of the work in progress here:

http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto/pdp11/

Note:

just touching the chip, part of the plastic box went out, as you can 
see in the images. Maybe this can identify a real fault on this chip ? 

stay tuned! :)

-- 
[asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on  keyservers]
[ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ]
[http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto IW9HGS http://kyuzz.org/radiocybernet]
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From macbiesz at optonline.net  Wed Nov  5 04:18:42 2003
From: macbiesz at optonline.net (macbiesz at optonline.net)
Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:18:42 -0500
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
Message-ID: <1156fee30.ee301156f@optonline.net>

You should make some kind of status log, showing what parts of the system have been ported, and what still needs to be done. That would make it easier for others to help out.

Maciek

----- Original Message -----
From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2003 4:56 am
Subject: Re: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)

> I'm trying to work out whether or not gcc takes a look at its own 
> header files 
> before or after it looks at the ones I've set it to look at - I got 
> some 
> weird warnings and error messages before I expanded the -I to 
> 
> gcc -I./../../include -I./../../include/sys -I./../sys/h
> 
> Still need the *.s files in the libraries dealt with, and as 
> before, I know 
> nothing of the VAX assembler syntax and mostly x86 in Intel syntax.
> 
> If anyone wants to join in with this, I would be very, very grateful.
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 
> P.S.  I've got to redo the utilities - I think that once I get the 
> libraries 
> sorted out, the utilities will be easy meat.


From asbesto at freaknet.org  Wed Nov  5 05:41:38 2003
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 19:41:38 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] pdp11/34 can't boot. help us ! 
In-Reply-To: <20031104150038.GB9037@freaknet.org>
References: <20031103094916.GE2101@freaknet.org>
	<20031104150038.GB9037@freaknet.org>
Message-ID: <20031104194138.GA12518@freaknet.org>


> No. the "broken" board is the M7891, 128Kx18 bit MOS memory. The
> broken chip is E15, a simple SN74LS175.
> Some images of the work in progress here:
> http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto/pdp11/
> stay tuned! :)

well,

pdp11/34 don't boot :(

same problem. so here i want to describe anything i can. 

CPU boards:

slot	conn	option		module		addr	vect
------------------------------------------------------------
1	a-f	cpu		m8266		n/a	n/a
2	a-f	cpu		m8265		n/a	n/a
3	c-f	ky11-lb		m7859		n/a	n/a
4	a-b	boot		m9312
4	c-f	dl11-w		m7856		177560	60
5	a-f	ms11-ld		m7891
6	a-f	rl11		m7762		174400	160
7	c-f	rx211		m8256		177170	264
8	c-f	dl11-wc		m7856		176500	300
9	a-b	unibus		m9202
9	c-f	u/q bim?(*)	m8217
10	a-b	unibus		m9202
10	c-f	convert.	m7066
11	a-f	generat.	m7067
12	a-f	bitmap		m7068
13	a-f	  =               =
14	a-f	  =               =
15	a-f	  =		  =
16
17
18	a-b	uni/term	m9302
18	c-d	video		a011
19	a-b-f	reg.kw11	m7952 (this is written)
(19     a-b	???		m9403
        c-f	reg.kw11	m7952  this is what i see in CPU)
20	a-b	qbus/ter	m9400
20	c-f	dma cont	m8026
21	c-f	q-bus cont	m8036
22	c-f	a/d mur		a017

(*) unreadable
-------------------------------------------------------------------	

well, this is the list as is taped on the CPU cover, compiled by hand.
i have verified, and all boards are in the place described here, 
except (1)


So, let's try to boot:
----------------------

1) turning on the chassis 

2) turning on the RX02 floppy module, from rear switch

3) pressing WRITE PROT and turning on the RL02 DISK module, from 
   rear switch

4) turning on the CPU module, from rear switch 

5) checking that disk is UNLOADED (LOAD unpressed).. at this time,
   all 4 RL02 lights are turned ON: LOAD, 0 READY, FAULT and WRITE PROT.

6) turning on main CPU from frontal knob (from DC OFF to DC ON):
   fan & rumors, "DC ON" red led led on. 
   inside the cpu:
   - RED led on M7891 board on 
     (this led, identified as "D3" on my schemes, is described as
     "PAR ERR INDICATOR", connected to pin 6 of E33, a 74S74. 
   - The green led on the board is OFF. looking at the board, i can
     see that is JUMPERED! so, it CAN'T turn on ... someone know why ? 
   - in every restart, the display show a different number (this is
     normal, i think)
   - RL02 Lights status: LOAD is on, 0 READY is off, FAULT is off and 
     WRITE PROT is on.

7) pressing LOAD, the LOAD light turn OFF, the disk will spin up 
   and after about 30 seconds the "0 READY" white light turn on. 

8) pressing "CTRL-BOOT" on the CPU CONSOLE will flash FAULT lights on 
   RL02 just for an istant, and after this nothing happen:
   - RL02 lights status is : LOAD off, READY on, FAULT off, WRITE PROT on.
   - CPU show "165504" and RUN led is off. BUS ERR led is off. MAINT is
     off, the only led on is "DC ON".

9) pressing again CTRL-BOOT obtain the same effect.

during this, nothing happen on serial console.

------------

Booting manually (inserting the octal code to boot from RL02):

this is the boot code, found in "E-10 Loading Software Bootstrap":

location	contents
001000		012701
001002		174400
001004		012761
001006		000013
001010		000004
001012		012711
001014		000004
001016		105711
001020		100376
001022		005061
001024		000002
001026		005061
001030		000004
001032		012761
001034		177400
001036		000006
001040		012711
001042		000014
001044		105711
001046		100376
001050		005007

HORRIBLE NEWS:
==============

i wrote stuff in 001000, and i read OTHER THINGS. so i can't
manually boot!!!

writing 111111,222222,333333,444444,555555,666666,777777, i
read    000111,000000,000110,000440,000101,002640,000100

but i read every time different contents :(((

maybe i have to add the bootstrap code in a different location?
maybe the 7891 board is totally broken ???

maybe the problem was the substitution of the SN74LS175N with an
hitachi HD74LS175P ?

HELP!!!

==============================================================

Photos of boot sequence, chips, schematics details and something
can be seen on http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto/pdp11. sorry for the 
bad quality but they was taken from a color quickcam.

we are working on a pdp11 section of www.freaknet.org to collect any
useful information.

any help will be appreciated (and ... maybe .. any SPARE PART :)

-- 
[asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on  keyservers]
[ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ]
[http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto IW9HGS http://kyuzz.org/radiocybernet]
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From grog at lemis.com  Wed Nov  5 12:22:15 2003
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 02:22:15 -0000
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <3FA10A89.7090901@hp.com>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
	<200310222110.39658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> <3F992C00.7090607@hp.com>
	<3FA10A89.7090901@hp.com>
Message-ID: <20001104211501.GA820@adelaide.lemis.com>

On Thursday, 30 October 2003 at  7:56:41 -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> I got corporate approval, well, as best as I could from corporate legal,
> to proceed.  The only caveats are: beware of the SCO shenanigans as 32V
> may encounter a similar wrath,

I'm only just catching up with this thread, but I'm surprised that
nobody else pointed out that SCO is the same company that released
"ancient UNIX" under a free license in January 2002.  Given SCO's
behaviour, that doesn't guarantee that they won't cause problems, but
it should severely limit the scope.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Wed Nov  5 20:23:54 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 23:23:54 +1300
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <1156fee30.ee301156f@optonline.net>
References: <1156fee30.ee301156f@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <200311052323.54655.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

Well, for a start, I've got most of the src/libc/gen ported - but I'll need to 
work on some of the files.  I've been saving the command-line to a file so I 
can see just what and where I'm finding problems.

src/libc/sys is *.s files, and I've got no background in VAX assembler or gas, 
so I'd rather someone who's experienced takes that on.

Thanks

Wesley Parish

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:18, macbiesz at optonline.net wrote:
> You should make some kind of status log, showing what parts of the system
> have been ported, and what still needs to be done. That would make it
> easier for others to help out.
>
> Maciek
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
> Date: Tuesday, November 4, 2003 4:56 am
> Subject: Re: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
>
> > I'm trying to work out whether or not gcc takes a look at its own
> > header files
> > before or after it looks at the ones I've set it to look at - I got
> > some
> > weird warnings and error messages before I expanded the -I to
> >
> > gcc -I./../../include -I./../../include/sys -I./../sys/h
> >
> > Still need the *.s files in the libraries dealt with, and as
> > before, I know
> > nothing of the VAX assembler syntax and mostly x86 in Intel syntax.
> >
> > If anyone wants to join in with this, I would be very, very grateful.
> >
> > Wesley Parish
> >
> > P.S.  I've got to redo the utilities - I think that once I get the
> > libraries
> > sorted out, the utilities will be easy meat.

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From patv at monmouth.com  Wed Nov  5 22:53:25 2003
From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 07:53:25 -0500
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <20001104211501.GA820@adelaide.lemis.com>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
 <200310222110.39658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> <3F992C00.7090607@hp.com>
 <3FA10A89.7090901@hp.com> <20001104211501.GA820@adelaide.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <3FA8F2C5.6040902@monmouth.com>

I have my opinions about SCO, and what they're doing.  I don't think 
we'll see any problems because this activity is down in the noise.  They 
need to challenge Linux at the enterprise level.  It will be quite some 
time, if ever, that 32V reaches that level of complexity in order to be 
a threat.

For now, it's an exercise in nostalgia.  In 1980, a friend and I 
investigated licensing unix for sale on 68K and 8086 based computers. 
We couldn't raise the $68,000 source+binary license fee, so the project 
died.  That was more than double my salary as an engineer at that time.

Now, 23 years later, I'm going to do a port to see how close my original 
estimates are to reality.  After the initial port, who knows?

Pat

Greg Lehey wrote:

> On Thursday, 30 October 2003 at  7:56:41 -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> 
>>I got corporate approval, well, as best as I could from corporate legal,
>>to proceed.  The only caveats are: beware of the SCO shenanigans as 32V
>>may encounter a similar wrath,
> 
> 
> I'm only just catching up with this thread, but I'm surprised that
> nobody else pointed out that SCO is the same company that released
> "ancient UNIX" under a free license in January 2002.  Given SCO's
> behaviour, that doesn't guarantee that they won't cause problems, but
> it should severely limit the scope.
> 
> Greg
> --
> Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> 



From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Thu Nov  6 07:16:14 2003
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 08:16:14 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: pdp11/34 can't boot. help us !
Message-ID: <200311052116.hA5LGEJI004005@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>


The machine sounds a scary mix of Unibus and Qbus peripherals (a real Heath
Robinson!). Given you cannot deposit/examine memory and get correct results,
the bootstrap will halt because it runs some diagnostics (including memory)
before it attempts to boot a device.

The first step it is to strip down the system to the first system unit. You
can still leave all the cards in, just remove the unibus jumper from slot 9
and move the terminator M9302 into slot 9 (a-b). For good measure, I'd also
remove the M8217 from slot 9 (c-f) and put in a bus grant continuity card if
you have one. Since it's (now) the last slot, it shouldn't matter if the
grant card is missing.

Then try your memory deposit/examine test.

I'm assuming here that you have tested all the power supply voltages as it
appear that you have a fairly loaded system. Have a look at the following site
for more hints:-

	http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/hints.html


From kstailey at yahoo.com  Sat Nov  8 13:51:13 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2003 19:51:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] VAX emualtion newsletter
Message-ID: <20031108035113.67081.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.didiermorandi.com/vms/vaxvms2itanium_200311en.pdf

mildly amusing

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From philipn at lucent.com  Sat Nov  8 22:30:57 2003
From: philipn at lucent.com (Philip, Naveen J (Naveen))
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 18:00:57 +0530 
Subject: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!
Message-ID: <6733C768256DEC42A72BAFEFA9CF06D2040E16AD@II0015EXCH002U>

Hi
All
I am trying to lauch a xterm window on a remote machine and then once the
xterm window is launched from the remote machine I am trying to start a gui
on the xterm window.
The following is the command I am using to start the xterm .It is failing
and giving the error.

remsh hostname " . /home/john/.profile >/dev/null 2> /dev/null;xterm"
stty: invalid command
xterm Xt error: Can't open display

also can you let  me know once the xterm is open how do we lauch the gui on
the xterm window using the same remoteshell.The gui name is nam_gui.


Regards,
Naveen

From philipn at lucent.com  Sat Nov  8 22:32:08 2003
From: philipn at lucent.com (Philip, Naveen J (Naveen))
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 18:02:08 +0530 
Subject: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!
Message-ID: <6733C768256DEC42A72BAFEFA9CF06D2040E16AE@II0015EXCH002U>



> Hi
> All
> I am trying to lauch a xterm window on a remote machine and then once the
> xterm window is launched from the remote machine I am trying to start a
> gui on the xterm window.
> The following is the command I am using to start the xterm .It is failing
> and giving the error.
> 
> remsh hostname " . /home/john/.profile >/dev/null 2> /dev/null;xterm"
> stty: invalid command
> xterm Xt error: Can't open display
> 
> also can you let  me know once the xterm is open how do we lauch the gui
> on the xterm window using the same remoteshell.The gui name is nam_gui.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Naveen

From wkt at tuhs.org  Sat Nov  8 22:49:27 2003
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 22:49:27 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!
In-Reply-To: <6733C768256DEC42A72BAFEFA9CF06D2040E16AD@II0015EXCH002U>
References: <6733C768256DEC42A72BAFEFA9CF06D2040E16AD@II0015EXCH002U>
Message-ID: <20031108124927.GA91489@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 06:00:57PM +0530, Philip, Naveen J (Naveen) wrote:
> Hi
> All
> I am trying to lauch a xterm window on a remote machine and then once the
> xterm window is launched from the remote machine I am trying to start a gui
> on the xterm window.

Naveen, this is a mailing list about Heritage Unix. I don't think
your question counts as such, unless you're running X11R3 on a Sun2
or something similar.

Cheers,
	Warren

From philipn at lucent.com  Sat Nov  8 22:52:05 2003
From: philipn at lucent.com (Philip, Naveen J (Naveen))
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 18:22:05 +0530 
Subject: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!
Message-ID: <6733C768256DEC42A72BAFEFA9CF06D2040E16AF@II0015EXCH002U>

All,
Can anyone suggest some good unix mailing list.
Regards,
Naveen

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Toomey [mailto:wkt at tuhs.org]
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 6:19 PM
To: Philip, Naveen J (Naveen)
Cc: 'tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org'
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!


On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 06:00:57PM +0530, Philip, Naveen J (Naveen) wrote:
> Hi
> All
> I am trying to lauch a xterm window on a remote machine and then once the
> xterm window is launched from the remote machine I am trying to start a
gui
> on the xterm window.

Naveen, this is a mailing list about Heritage Unix. I don't think
your question counts as such, unless you're running X11R3 on a Sun2
or something similar.

Cheers,
	Warren

From asmodai at ao.mine.nu  Sat Nov  8 23:02:47 2003
From: asmodai at ao.mine.nu (Paul Ward)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 13:02:47 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!
In-Reply-To: <6733C768256DEC42A72BAFEFA9CF06D2040E16AF@II0015EXCH002U>
References: <6733C768256DEC42A72BAFEFA9CF06D2040E16AF@II0015EXCH002U>
Message-ID: <94662971923.20031108130247@ao.mine.nu>

Hello Naveen,

Saturday, November 8, 2003, 12:52:05 PM, you wrote:

PNJN> All,
PNJN> Can anyone suggest some good unix mailing list.
PNJN> Regards,
PNJN> Naveen

PNJN> -----Original Message-----
PNJN> From: Warren Toomey [mailto:wkt at tuhs.org]
PNJN> Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 6:19 PM
PNJN> To: Philip, Naveen J (Naveen)
PNJN> Cc: 'tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org'
PNJN> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!


PNJN> On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 06:00:57PM +0530, Philip, Naveen J (Naveen) wrote:
>> Hi
>> All
>> I am trying to lauch a xterm window on a remote machine and then once the
>> xterm window is launched from the remote machine I am trying to start a
PNJN> gui
>> on the xterm window.

PNJN> Naveen, this is a mailing list about Heritage Unix. I don't think
PNJN> your question counts as such, unless you're running X11R3 on a Sun2
PNJN> or something similar.

PNJN> Cheers,
PNJN> 	Warren
PNJN> _______________________________________________
PNJN> TUHS mailing list
PNJN> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
PNJN> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

You're on one... TUHS... its a great Unix mailing list ;)

Though, for your question, your best bet would be to get a good
newsreader and peruse comp.os.unix.admin or similar.

Also, ugu is a good resource to have handy (www.ugu.com).

Though, it is also worth giving more details on the system you use --
i.e. system name, release version, X version etc etc.

-- 
Best regards,
 Paul                            mailto:asmodai at ao.mine.nu


From kstailey at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  9 07:30:40 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2003 13:30:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
In-Reply-To: <20031108124927.GA91489@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20031108213040.87443.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 06:00:57PM +0530, Philip, Naveen J (Naveen) wrote:
> > Hi
> > All
> > I am trying to lauch a xterm window on a remote machine and then once the
> > xterm window is launched from the remote machine I am trying to start a gui
> > on the xterm window.
> 
> Naveen, this is a mailing list about Heritage Unix. I don't think
> your question counts as such, unless you're running X11R3 on a Sun2
> or something similar.
> 
> Cheers,
> 	Warren

Speaking of X on Heritage Unix I have a Sun 3/60M with the 1280x1024 monochrome
display.  The only display server I have ever gotten to work on it is on NetBSD
1.3 running the pre-XFree86 X11R6.

I'm wondering if there are any older UNIXes I could use.  Does Sun still keep
SunOS 4 under wraps or can it be used for non-commerical purposes at no cost?



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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sun Nov  9 10:27:33 2003
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sat, 8 Nov 03 16:27:33 PST
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
Message-ID: <0311090027.AA09487@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Kenneth Stailey <kstailey at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Speaking of X on Heritage Unix I have a Sun 3/60M with the 1280x1024 monochrome
> display.  The only display server I have ever gotten to work on it is on NetBSD
> 1.3 running the pre-XFree86 X11R6.
>
> I'm wondering if there are any older UNIXes I could use.

I would more than welcome a volunteer to port 4.3BSD-Quasijarus to m68k.
(Using pcc of course.)  Wanna tackle that one?

MS

From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Mon Nov 10 05:22:32 2003
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 11:22:32 -0800
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
In-Reply-To: <20031108213040.87443.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>;
	from kstailey@yahoo.com on Sat, Nov 08, 2003 at 13:30:40 %z
References: <20031108213040.87443.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031109192232.GA1358@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 2003.11.08 13:30 Kenneth Stailey wrote:

> Does Sun still keep SunOS 4 under wraps or can it be
> used for non-commerical purposes at no cost?
You can download SunOS for sun3 legal and for free from
http://www.sun3zoo.de/
-- 



tschüß,
           Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz

From kstailey at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 10 07:08:57 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2003 13:08:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] Something quick and easy to do that helps the world
Message-ID: <20031109210857.92557.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com>

You can edit the Wikipedia, it's really easy to pick up on and there are plenty
of people involved who can (and will) offer advice if you find yourself
struggling.

Lots of pages detailing UNIX Hertiage exist now and you can add more if you
like.

I spent an hour or so today enhancing this page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Microsystems


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From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Tue Nov 11 18:13:16 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:13:16 +1300
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
In-Reply-To: <20031109192232.GA1358@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <20031108213040.87443.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>
 <20031109192232.GA1358@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <200311112113.16709.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

I've personally thought that Sun should release the source trees of its old 
BSD-based SunOS with the idea of getting back onside with all the Linux and 
Unix people it pissed off by its "buying" a "Unix" license from SCO, the 
Societe Commercial du On-Dit, the Commercial Society of Rumourmongers.

I was also thinking - there's enough free MC68K emulation stuff out there - 
for Mac, Amiga, Atari, etc - that writing a Sun3 emulator should be 
relatively easy.

What do Sun-worshippers ;^) think?

Wesley Parish

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:22, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> On 2003.11.08 13:30 Kenneth Stailey wrote:
> > Does Sun still keep SunOS 4 under wraps or can it be
> > used for non-commerical purposes at no cost?
>
> You can download SunOS for sun3 legal and for free from
> http://www.sun3zoo.de/

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From firebug at apk.net  Wed Nov 12 01:09:21 2003
From: firebug at apk.net (Derrik Walker v2.0)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:09:21 -0500
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
In-Reply-To: <200311112113.16709.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <20031108213040.87443.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20031109192232.GA1358@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
	<200311112113.16709.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <07793D30-1459-11D8-BC1D-003065C1AC88@apk.net>


On Nov 11, 2003, at 3:13 AM, Wesley Parish wrote:

> I've personally thought that Sun should release the source trees of  
> its old
> BSD-based SunOS with the idea of getting back onside with all the  
> Linux and
> Unix people it pissed off by its "buying" a "Unix" license from SCO,  
> the
> Societe Commercial du On-Dit, the Commercial Society of Rumourmongers.
>
> I was also thinking - there's enough free MC68K emulation stuff out  
> there -
> for Mac, Amiga, Atari, etc - that writing a Sun3 emulator should be
> relatively easy.
>
> What do Sun-worshippers ;^) think?
>

A Sun 3 emulator would kick butt!  So would an Sun 4c or 4m emulator  
... and I'm sure modern PowerPC and Intel chips are fast enough to do  
it well.

- Derrik

firebug at apk.net                                                    
http://junior.apk.net/~firebug
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
---------------------------
Getadelt wird wer schmerzen Kennt.
Von feuer das die haut verbrennt.
Ich werf ein light.
Ein heisser schrei.
Feuer Frei!
	-- "Feuer Frei" Rammstein


From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Nov 12 02:58:36 2003
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:58:36 +0200
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
Message-ID: <200311111658.hABGwa5t025453@skeeve.com>

> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:13:16 +1300
> From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
> Subject: Re: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
>
> I've personally thought that Sun should release the source trees of its old 
> BSD-based SunOS with the idea of getting back onside with all the Linux and 
> Unix people it pissed off by its "buying" a "Unix" license from SCO, the 
> Societe Commercial du On-Dit, the Commercial Society of Rumourmongers.

Don't hold your breath. Even SunOS 4.1.x had large chunks of System V Release 3
code in it: all the STREAMS stuff and RFS worked in that environment (not that
anyone ever used it).  Also all of /usr/5bin, /usr/5lib etc.

Arnold

From kstailey at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 12 04:15:24 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:15:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
In-Reply-To: <200311112113.16709.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <20031111181524.82902.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> I've personally thought that Sun should release the source trees of its old 
> BSD-based SunOS with the idea of getting back onside with all the Linux and 
> Unix people it pissed off by its "buying" a "Unix" license from SCO, the 
> Societe Commercial du On-Dit, the Commercial Society of Rumourmongers.
> 
> I was also thinking - there's enough free MC68K emulation stuff out there - 
> for Mac, Amiga, Atari, etc - that writing a Sun3 emulator should be 
> relatively easy.

Like very easy:

http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~fredette/tme/index.html

> What do Sun-worshippers ;^) think?
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 
> On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:22, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> > On 2003.11.08 13:30 Kenneth Stailey wrote:
> > > Does Sun still keep SunOS 4 under wraps or can it be
> > > used for non-commerical purposes at no cost?
> >
> > You can download SunOS for sun3 legal and for free from
> > http://www.sun3zoo.de/
> 
> -- 
> Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
> Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
> You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
> Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
> I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

From kstailey at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 12 04:18:53 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 10:18:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Free SunOS (was Re: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote
	xterm!!))
In-Reply-To: <200311111658.hABGwa5t025453@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <20031111181853.25105.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Aharon Robbins <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

>> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:13:16 +1300
>> From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
>> Subject: Re: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
>> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
>>
>> I've personally thought that Sun should release the source trees of
>> its old BSD-based SunOS with the idea of getting back onside with
>> all the Linux and
> 
>> Unix people it pissed off by its "buying" a "Unix" license from
>> SCO, the Societe Commercial du On-Dit, the Commercial Society of
>> Rumourmongers.
> 
> Don't hold your breath. Even SunOS 4.1.x had large chunks of System
> V Release 3 code in it: all the STREAMS stuff and RFS worked in that
> environment (not that anyone ever used it).  Also all of /usr/5bin,
> /usr/5lib etc.
> 
> Arnold

I wonder if SunOS 3.5 could be liberated now that BSD is free.


__________________________________
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Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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From Pat.Villani at hp.com  Wed Nov 12 05:41:28 2003
From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 14:41:28 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32V/I portability
Message-ID: <3FB13B68.7090400@hp.com>

Folks,

After studying the source code for a while, I found a few explicit and 
implicit vaxisms that need to be rectified.  I'd like to purge the 
source entirely of these vaxisms, but that would mean that if anyone 
wants to port what I do back to VAX, they'll need to do some work.

Also, this mailing list is fairly low traffic, and for now my activities 
are very low traffic as well.  Should I set up a separate mailing list 
for those interested in this project?

Opinions?

Pat

-- 
Outer space is no place for a person of breeding. -- Lady Violet Bonham 
Carter




From macbiesz at optonline.net  Wed Nov 12 07:08:01 2003
From: macbiesz at optonline.net (macbiesz at optonline.net)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:08:01 -0500
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
Message-ID: <2ab9072a9e8a.2a9e8a2ab907@optonline.net>

A couple years ago, Sun released Solaris 8 source for free. The whole system is full of SVisms, and AFAIK, the source remains free.

Maciek

----- Original Message -----
From: Aharon Robbins <arnold at skeeve.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 11:58 am
Subject: Re: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)

> > Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:13:16 +1300
> > From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
> > Subject: Re: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote 
> xterm!!)> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> >
> > I've personally thought that Sun should release the source trees 
> of its old 
> > BSD-based SunOS with the idea of getting back onside with all the 
> Linux and 
> > Unix people it pissed off by its "buying" a "Unix" license from 
> SCO, the 
> > Societe Commercial du On-Dit, the Commercial Society of 
> Rumourmongers.
> Don't hold your breath. Even SunOS 4.1.x had large chunks of System 
> V Release 3
> code in it: all the STREAMS stuff and RFS worked in that 
> environment (not that
> anyone ever used it).  Also all of /usr/5bin, /usr/5lib etc.
> 
> Arnold
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 


From macbiesz at optonline.net  Wed Nov 12 07:13:09 2003
From: macbiesz at optonline.net (macbiesz at optonline.net)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 16:13:09 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32V/I portability
Message-ID: <2a43b02a2631.2a26312a43b0@optonline.net>

You could set up a Sourceforge project for 32/I?

Maciek

----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Villani <Pat.Villani at hp.com>
Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:41 pm
Subject: [TUHS] 32V/I portability

> Folks,
> 
> After studying the source code for a while, I found a few explicit 
> and 
> implicit vaxisms that need to be rectified.  I'd like to purge the 
> source entirely of these vaxisms, but that would mean that if 
> anyone 
> wants to port what I do back to VAX, they'll need to do some work.
> 
> Also, this mailing list is fairly low traffic, and for now my 
> activities 
> are very low traffic as well.  Should I set up a separate mailing 
> list 
> for those interested in this project?
> 
> Opinions?
> 
> Pat
> 
> -- 
> Outer space is no place for a person of breeding. -- Lady Violet 
> Bonham 
> Carter
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 


From kstailey at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 12 11:39:23 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:39:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] 32V/I portability
In-Reply-To: <2a43b02a2631.2a26312a43b0@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <20031112013923.70852.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com>


--- macbiesz at optonline.net wrote:
> You could set up a Sourceforge project for 32/I?
> 
> Maciek

Anything but Sourceforge.  You will rue the day you chose them.  Don't take my
word for it just look:

http://www.google.com/search?q=sourceforge+sucks

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pat Villani <Pat.Villani at hp.com>
> Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:41 pm
> Subject: [TUHS] 32V/I portability
> 
> > Folks,
> > 
> > After studying the source code for a while, I found a few explicit 
> > and 
> > implicit vaxisms that need to be rectified.  I'd like to purge the 
> > source entirely of these vaxisms, but that would mean that if 
> > anyone 
> > wants to port what I do back to VAX, they'll need to do some work.
> > 
> > Also, this mailing list is fairly low traffic, and for now my 
> > activities 
> > are very low traffic as well.  Should I set up a separate mailing 
> > list 
> > for those interested in this project?
> > 
> > Opinions?
> > 
> > Pat
> > 
> > -- 
> > Outer space is no place for a person of breeding. -- Lady Violet 
> > Bonham 
> > Carter
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > TUHS mailing list
> > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Wed Nov 12 11:44:04 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:44:04 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32V/I portability
In-Reply-To: <20031112013923.70852.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c3a8be$754ae100$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
I disagree. It turns out that Yahoo is getting worse, and Google,
isn't far behind. The problems that Sourceforge has been having, have
been in most cases repaired. They are still working on cleaning up the
projects that have had little activity within the last one to two
years. But I will accept that we can agree to disagree.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Kenneth Stailey
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 8:39 PM
> To: macbiesz at optonline.net; tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] 32V/I portability
> 
> 
> --- macbiesz at optonline.net wrote:
> > You could set up a Sourceforge project for 32/I?
> >
> > Maciek
> 
> Anything but Sourceforge.  You will rue the day you chose them.
Don't take my
> word for it just look:
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?q=sourceforge+sucks
> 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Pat Villani <Pat.Villani at hp.com>
> > Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 2:41 pm
> > Subject: [TUHS] 32V/I portability
> >
> > > Folks,
> > >
> > > After studying the source code for a while, I found a few
explicit
> > > and
> > > implicit vaxisms that need to be rectified.  I'd like to purge
the
> > > source entirely of these vaxisms, but that would mean that if
> > > anyone
> > > wants to port what I do back to VAX, they'll need to do some
work.
> > >
> > > Also, this mailing list is fairly low traffic, and for now my
> > > activities
> > > are very low traffic as well.  Should I set up a separate
mailing
> > > list
> > > for those interested in this project?
> > >
> > > Opinions?
> > >
> > > Pat
> > >
> > > --
> > > Outer space is no place for a person of breeding. -- Lady Violet
> > > Bonham
> > > Carter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TUHS mailing list
> > > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TUHS mailing list
> > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From lm at bitmover.com  Wed Nov 12 12:09:25 2003
From: lm at bitmover.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 18:09:25 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 6, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <20031112020007.248411FD1@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20031112020007.248411FD1@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20031112020925.GF3886@work.bitmover.com>

> > I've personally thought that Sun should release the source trees of its old 
> > BSD-based SunOS with the idea of getting back onside with all the Linux and 
> > Unix people it pissed off by its "buying" a "Unix" license from SCO, the 
> > Societe Commercial du On-Dit, the Commercial Society of Rumourmongers.
> 
> Don't hold your breath. Even SunOS 4.1.x had large chunks of System V Release 3
> code in it: all the STREAMS stuff and RFS worked in that environment (not that
> anyone ever used it).  Also all of /usr/5bin, /usr/5lib etc.

I removed all that stuff and booted up and ran on a complete free version of
SunOS long ago.  Read about it here:

http://www.bitmover.com/lm/papers/srcos.html
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm

From lm at bitmover.com  Wed Nov 12 13:08:42 2003
From: lm at bitmover.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 19:08:42 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 6, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <20031112020007.248411FD1@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20031112020007.248411FD1@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20031112030842.GA26882@work.bitmover.com>

> Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:39:23 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kenneth Stailey <kstailey at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] 32V/I portability
> To: macbiesz at optonline.net, tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Message-ID: <20031112013923.70852.qmail at web60509.mail.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> 
> --- macbiesz at optonline.net wrote:
> > You could set up a Sourceforge project for 32/I?
> > 
> > Maciek
> 
> Anything but Sourceforge.  You will rue the day you chose them.  Don't take my

If someone gives me a pointer to the tarballs I'll happily import
them into BitKeeper and set up a 32vi.bkbits.net that anyone can use.
Unlike sourceforge, we're about quality, not quantity, but even so,
we have 1/3 as many files under revision control and no performance
problems.  It's not really sourceforge's fault, they choose CVS and CVS
sucks.  As Ted T'so said recently "CVS is not the answer, CVS is the
question.  No is the answer."  :)
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm

From tuhs at cuzuco.com  Wed Nov 12 13:25:21 2003
From: tuhs at cuzuco.com (tuhs at cuzuco.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:25:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] solaris source (was Re: Heritage X)
Message-ID: <200311120325.WAA16148@cuzuco.com>

 
That program was canceled, see http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/source/
It was a license, and if you have it, you can not share it with non-licensees.
Also it wasn't quite complete.
 
> From: macbiesz at optonline.net
> A couple years ago, Sun released Solaris 8 source for free. The whole system is full of SVisms, and AFAIK, the source remains free.
> 
> Maciek


From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Wed Nov 12 13:31:03 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:31:03 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] solaris source (was Re: Heritage X)
In-Reply-To: <200311120325.WAA16148@cuzuco.com>
Message-ID: <003301c3a8cd$6711fce0$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello from Gregg C Levine
True. But they are giving away the latest version of their OS for
free. I have it here, both X86, and SPARC versions. In fact I got both
of them at the previous LWE event here in the US, in NYC. The
individual first gave me the SPARC version, and then realized I had
asked for the X86 version, and handed me that version.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of tuhs at cuzuco.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 10:25 PM
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: [TUHS] solaris source (was Re: Heritage X)
> 
> 
> That program was canceled, see
http://wwws.sun.com/software/solaris/source/
> It was a license, and if you have it, you can not share it with
non-licensees.
> Also it wasn't quite complete.
> 
> > From: macbiesz at optonline.net
> > A couple years ago, Sun released Solaris 8 source for free. The
whole system is
> full of SVisms, and AFAIK, the source remains free.
> >
> > Maciek
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From rweather at zip.com.au  Wed Nov 12 17:19:06 2003
From: rweather at zip.com.au (Rhys Weatherley)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 17:19:06 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] SCO File List - Sort Of
Message-ID: <200311121719.06715.rweather@zip.com.au>

Groklaw has one of SCO's legal filings in the SCO/IBM case up that contains a 
list of files that they claim contain infringing material:

    http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031111020447263

It seems to be basically "grep -r (SMP|IBM|NUMA|JFS) /usr/src/linux" with 
little filtering of the output.  The list contains filenames but not the 
actual line numbers of the supposedly infringing code.  So it is pretty 
useless, but is more of a starting point than we've had to date.

I've got dibs on 48 hours in the "how long it takes for the community to find 
prior public domain sources for all of the above" pool. :-)

Cheers,

Rhys.


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Wed Nov 12 18:04:44 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:04:44 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 6, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <20031112020925.GF3886@work.bitmover.com>
References: <20031112020007.248411FD1@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20031112020925.GF3886@work.bitmover.com>
Message-ID: <200311122104.44235.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

I'm aware of that, and thanks Larry, for a pointer to the article.

What would interest me would be a copy of the source tree - any chance of 
that, or is it no longer extant?

Wesley Parish

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 15:09, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > > I've personally thought that Sun should release the source trees of its
> > > old BSD-based SunOS with the idea of getting back onside with all the
> > > Linux and Unix people it pissed off by its "buying" a "Unix" license
> > > from SCO, the Societe Commercial du On-Dit, the Commercial Society of
> > > Rumourmongers.
> >
> > Don't hold your breath. Even SunOS 4.1.x had large chunks of System V
> > Release 3 code in it: all the STREAMS stuff and RFS worked in that
> > environment (not that anyone ever used it).  Also all of /usr/5bin,
> > /usr/5lib etc.
>
> I removed all that stuff and booted up and ran on a complete free version
> of SunOS long ago.  Read about it here:
>
> http://www.bitmover.com/lm/papers/srcos.html

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From philipn at lucent.com  Wed Nov 12 18:22:28 2003
From: philipn at lucent.com (Philip, Naveen J (Naveen))
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:52:28 +0530
Subject: [TUHS] Unsubsribe
Message-ID: <6733C768256DEC42A72BAFEFA9CF06D2040E16BB@II0015EXCH002U>

Hi
All
Can somebody tell me which link I have to use to unsubscribe from this
mailing list??
Regards,
Naveen

From asbesto at freaknet.org  Wed Nov 12 19:39:13 2003
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 09:39:13 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] The PDP11/34 saga ... CONTINUED :)
Message-ID: <20031112093913.GB10253@freaknet.org>


Hi,

Do you remember the broken chip on pdp11/34 ? 

well, i changed the HC74LS175P with an original SN74LS175N. Now
i can write and read correct data on memory :))) and the RED LED
"PARITY ERR" on the M7891 board turn OFF while pdp11 is running
a program. :)))

BUT

the pdp11 can't boot: the boot loader program stop after few
steps. 

some details will follow in the next days; now i can't make any
further test ...

-- 
[asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on  keyservers]
[ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ]
[http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto IW9HGS http://kyuzz.org/radiocybernet]
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From kwall at kurtwerks.com  Wed Nov 12 23:34:42 2003
From: kwall at kurtwerks.com (Kurt Wall)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 08:34:42 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] SCO File List - Sort Of
In-Reply-To: <200311121719.06715.rweather@zip.com.au>
References: <200311121719.06715.rweather@zip.com.au>
Message-ID: <20031112133442.GB1532@kurtwerks.com>

Consuming 0.8K bytes, Rhys Weatherley blathered:
> Groklaw has one of SCO's legal filings in the SCO/IBM case up that contains a 
> list of files that they claim contain infringing material:
> 
>     http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031111020447263
> 
> It seems to be basically "grep -r (SMP|IBM|NUMA|JFS) /usr/src/linux" with 
> little filtering of the output.  The list contains filenames but not the 
> actual line numbers of the supposedly infringing code.  So it is pretty 
> useless, but is more of a starting point than we've had to date.
> 
> I've got dibs on 48 hours in the "how long it takes for the community to find 
> prior public domain sources for all of the above" pool. :-)

I'll see your 48 hours and raise you to 36. ;-)

Kurt
-- 
f u cn rd ths, itn tyg h myxbl cd.

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Thu Nov 13 04:39:14 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 13:39:14 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Unsubsribe
In-Reply-To: <6733C768256DEC42A72BAFEFA9CF06D2040E16BB@II0015EXCH002U>
Message-ID: <009101c3a94c$45ffb360$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello from Gregg C Levine
Well yes. Go to the bottom of the page. There you will see an web
address. Go there, and follow its onscreen instructions for leaving
our discussion. Might I ask a question? Why?
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Philip, Naveen J (Naveen)
> Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 3:22 AM
> To: 'tuhs at cuzuco.com'; tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: [TUHS] Unsubsribe
> 
> Hi
> All
> Can somebody tell me which link I have to use to unsubscribe from
this
> mailing list??
> Regards,
> Naveen
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From macbiesz at optonline.net  Thu Nov 13 22:23:50 2003
From: macbiesz at optonline.net (macbiesz at optonline.net)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 07:23:50 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?
Message-ID: <33cabb339a64.339a6433cabb@optonline.net>

Quote from http://www.deadmedia.org/notes/3/034.html:

"A copy of his first programme-controlled electro-mechanical digital computer, the Z3, was made in 1960 and put on display at the Deutsches Museum in Munich. A copy of the Z1 was constructed in 1989, and can be found in the Museum for Transport and Technology in Berlin."

Maciek

----- Original Message -----
From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Date: Thursday, November 13, 2003 3:43 am
Subject: Re: [pups] ACMS (Australian 'puter museum) doomed?

> On 2003.11.13 00:06 Johnny Billquist wrote:
> 
> > Not to demean that effort, but don't the Germans have a Z4 still
> > working in a museum? That would mean something like 1942.
> 1942 would be the Z3, the first computer ever. The Z3 that is in the
> Deutsches Museum is AFAIK a rebuild of the original one. (Rebuild 
> underthe supervision of Konrad Zuse himself.) I don't know if the 
> Z4 is still
> around. Google for "Konrad Zuse" and / or his son "Horst Zuse". Horst
> Zuse has put much effort in documenting the work of his father.
> 
> I know that there is a Zuse Z23 in Karlsruhe. It was build in 1956,
> based on electron tubes, core and drum memory and it is still fully
> functional!
> -- 
> 
> 
> tschüß,
>       Jochen
> 
> Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> 


From tfb at cley.com  Tue Nov 11 22:15:45 2003
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 12:15:45 +0000
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
In-Reply-To: <200311112113.16709.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <20031108213040.87443.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>
	<20031109192232.GA1358@oblina.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
	<200311112113.16709.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <16304.54001.418990.32116@cley.com>

* Wesley Parish wrote:
> I've personally thought that Sun should release the source trees of its old 
> BSD-based SunOS with the idea of getting back onside with all the Linux and 
> Unix people it pissed off by its "buying" a "Unix" license from SCO, the 
> Societe Commercial du On-Dit, the Commercial Society of Rumourmongers.

I suspect that releasing source to virtually any substantial, recent
commercial Unix is a hideous political nightmare.  They almost
certainly have code that came from many other companies, under lots of
different license agreements, none of which were designed to allow for
open source distribution, and every one of which has to be looked at
very carefully in case someone pops up and sues.  And all the code
will have been mangled together in all sorts of exciting ways.

I remember that getting BSD 4.x released was a huge saga, and SunOS4
is bound to be much worse politically.

> I was also thinking - there's enough free MC68K emulation stuff out there - 
> for Mac, Amiga, Atari, etc - that writing a Sun3 emulator should be 
> relatively easy.

Surely small Sun3s should be easy to come by?  They were until
recently, anyway.

--tim


From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Nov 12 04:31:08 2003
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 11:31:08 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Free SunOS
In-Reply-To: <20031111181853.25105.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <200311111658.hABGwa5t025453@skeeve.com>
	<20031111181853.25105.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031111.113108.12617616.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20031111181853.25105.qmail at web60506.mail.yahoo.com>
            Kenneth Stailey <kstailey at yahoo.com> writes:
: I wonder if SunOS 3.5 could be liberated now that BSD is free.

I don't think so.  IIRC, there was a fair amount of SysV code going
into SunOS even at that time...

Warner

From kstailey at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 14 14:43:56 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:43:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
In-Reply-To: <20031111181524.82902.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20031114044356.97745.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Kenneth Stailey <kstailey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> --- Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz> wrote:
> > I've personally thought that Sun should release the source trees of its old
> 
> > BSD-based SunOS with the idea of getting back onside with all the Linux and
> 
> > Unix people it pissed off by its "buying" a "Unix" license from SCO, the 
> > Societe Commercial du On-Dit, the Commercial Society of Rumourmongers.
> > 
> > I was also thinking - there's enough free MC68K emulation stuff out there -
> 
> > for Mac, Amiga, Atari, etc - that writing a Sun3 emulator should be 
> > relatively easy.
> 
> Like very easy:
> 
> http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~fredette/tme/index.html

I was able to the the tme sun2 to work with the serial console on a FreeBSD
4.9-STABLE box.  The GTK GUI had problems that I will look at later.

$ tip sun2
can't open log file /var/log/aculog.
connected
Self Test completed successfully.

Sun Workstation, Model Sun-2/120 or Sun-2/170, Sun-2 keyboard
ROM Rev R, 4MB memory installed
Serial #4393, Ethernet address 8:0:20:DE:AD:BF

Probing Multibus: sd
Using RS232 A input.
Auto-boot in progress...
Boot: sd(0,0,0)vmunix 

Waiting for disk to spin up...

Please start it, if necessary, -OR- press any key to quit.

>?
What?
>r
SS: 00000FFC? 
US: 00400000? 
SF: 00000003? 

Does anyone have suggestions where to get SunOS for a sun2?

> > What do Sun-worshippers ;^) think?
> > 
> > Wesley Parish
> > 
> > On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 08:22, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> > > On 2003.11.08 13:30 Kenneth Stailey wrote:
> > > > Does Sun still keep SunOS 4 under wraps or can it be
> > > > used for non-commerical purposes at no cost?
> > >
> > > You can download SunOS for sun3 legal and for free from
> > > http://www.sun3zoo.de/
> > 
> > -- 
> > Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
> > Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
> > You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
> > Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
> > I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
> > _______________________________________________
> > TUHS mailing list
> > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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> _______________________________________________
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> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


__________________________________
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From brad at anduin.eldar.org  Sat Nov 15 02:12:50 2003
From: brad at anduin.eldar.org (Brad Spencer)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 11:12:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
In-Reply-To: <20031114044356.97745.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com> (message
	from Kenneth Stailey on Thu, 13 Nov 2003 20:43:56 -0800 (PST))
Message-ID: <200311141612.LAA01173@anduin.eldar.org>


[snip]

   Does anyone have suggestions where to get SunOS for a sun2?

[snip]


While you are looking for a copy, you can try NetBSD/sun2.





-- 
Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org -- KC8VKS
http://anduin.eldar.org  - & -  http://anduin.ipv6.eldar.org [IPv6 only]
[finger brad at anduin.eldar.org for PGP public key]

From kstailey at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 15 09:02:37 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 15:02:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: old SunOS (was Re: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote
	xterm!!))
In-Reply-To: <200311141612.LAA01173@anduin.eldar.org>
Message-ID: <20031114230237.6658.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Brad Spencer <brad at anduin.eldar.org> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>    Does anyone have suggestions where to get SunOS for a sun2?
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
> While you are looking for a copy, you can try NetBSD/sun2.

Hmm. I started out wanting to run X11 on a Sun3.  How did I end up here?

I have a Sun3.  I have installed various NetBSD versions.  I found that only
1.3 supports X11.  Others initialize to the point of drawing the stipple
background halfway down the screen and then coredump.  Pro'lly segfault.

I was interested in running real SunOS on my real Sun3 and found it was
available for no cost.

Warren asked about a Sun3 emulator and I found a Sun2 one.  I was hoping to do
trial SunOS installations on an emulator but it appears I'm ahead of my time.
:)

> -- 
> Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org -- KC8VKS
> http://anduin.eldar.org  - & -  http://anduin.ipv6.eldar.org [IPv6 only]
> [finger brad at anduin.eldar.org for PGP public key]
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


__________________________________
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From jmbw at nather.com  Sat Nov 15 10:21:14 2003
From: jmbw at nather.com (Markus Weber)
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2003 18:21:14 -0600
Subject: old SunOS (was Re: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using
	remotexterm!!))
In-Reply-To: <20031114230237.6658.qmail@web60503.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGOEBCMJAA.jmbw@nather.com>

>
> I was interested in running real SunOS on my real Sun3 and found it was
> available for no cost.
>
> Warren asked about a Sun3 emulator and I found a Sun2 one.  I was
> hoping to do
> trial SunOS installations on an emulator but it appears I'm ahead
> of my time.
> :)

I'd love to have a sun3 emulator for old time's sake.

After a bit of research, the sun3x architecture in general and the 3/80
model in particular look like the most straightforward choice. There are
several open-source choices for the CPU/MMU/FPU core and there appears to be
a decent amount of documentation and (driver) reference code to code the
emulation of the internal devices.

www.sun3arc.org and www.sun3zoo.de are a trip down memory lane, if for no
other reason than having known the folks running these sites and having had
an office on the floor where the servers appear to be physically located.

I don't know if it would be easier to modify or expand an existing emulator
for a box of similar complexity or starting from scratch, but in either case
it seems like a solvable problem. To finally drop the question, who would be
interested in working on such an emulator?

Cheers
-Markus
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.536 / Virus Database: 331 - Release Date: 11/3/2003


From tfb at cley.com  Mon Nov 17 20:05:55 2003
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 10:05:55 +0000
Subject: Heritage X (was Re: [TUHS] Lauch Gui using remote xterm!!)
In-Reply-To: <2ab9072a9e8a.2a9e8a2ab907@optonline.net>
References: <2ab9072a9e8a.2a9e8a2ab907@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <16312.40323.729496.405903@cley.com>

* macbiesz  wrote:
> A couple years ago, Sun released Solaris 8 source for free. The
> whole system is full of SVisms, and AFAIK, the source remains free.

I think it depends what you mean by `free'.  I forget the details but
though I'm sure you could fetch it, look at it, rebuild it & maybe
make changes which you did not redistribute, you almost certainly
could not, say, redistribute it, or take material from it and
redistribute that.  You may also have needed to be a Solaris licensee
as well (not that this costs much or, often, anything).

So it really is one of these `definition of free' things - if you
define `free' as `not costing anything' then yes, it was/is free, but
if you define it in some sense that involves freedom to redistribute
or something like that then it wasn't free.  I doubt
free-software-cult followers would have called it free, put it that
way!

Anyway, this is probably off-topic by now

--tim 




From patv at monmouth.com  Tue Nov 18 02:40:24 2003
From: patv at monmouth.com (patv at monmouth.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:40:24 EST
Subject: [TUHS] 32I status as of 17 Nov 2003
Message-ID: <200311171640.hAHGeOwB024089@wwws.monmouth.com>

1. Converted unpublished locore to AT&T syntax.  Work still underway on
   new locore.S file.

2. Will use coff executable format. May comply with Sys V ABI.  The
   latter is TBD.

3. Gcc is tool chain unless someone wants to take on 32V compiler.  May
   take advantage of inline and asm in machine dependent files.

   I wouldn't recommend using the 32V compiler, mainly because there
   are so many syntax changes, as well as newer compiler technology,
   missing from it as to make it a very challenging project.

4. Gcc cross compile to be used for building.  I'll make this available
   later next month, after I shake out the bugs.

5. May go to Bitkeeper for source control. More to follow.

6. License for all new files to be the "revised BSD license."  This is
   compatible with the Caldera license, an "original BSD license" with
   the advertising clause specific to Caldera.  I want to keep it open
   source, and this is the best compromise I see for project license.

7. May change spln() to more understandable nomenclature, e.g., spl4()
   becomes spltty(), similar to BSD practice.

8. 32I is the interim name.  I would have preferred Unix version 7, but
   can't for obvious trademark reasons.

   Project name still up for grabs.  I was thinking of UNX, named after
   the old DEC name for the facility I work in.  Sort of a tribute to
   days gone by, as is porting 32V.  Probably get into trouble for that
   one as well.


---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Monmouth Internet MI-Webmail.
http://www.monmouth.com/



From bwc at coraid.com  Tue Nov 18 07:41:30 2003
From: bwc at coraid.com (Brantley Coile)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:41:30 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32I status as of 17 Nov 2003
In-Reply-To: <200311171640.hAHGeOwB024089@wwws.monmouth.com>
References: <200311171640.hAHGeOwB024089@wwws.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <oprysw7gl4ceuadk@smtp.borf.com>

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:40:24 EST, <patv at monmouth.com> wrote:

> 1. Converted unpublished locore to AT&T syntax.  Work still underway on
> new locore.S file.
>
> 2. Will use coff executable format. May comply with Sys V ABI.  The
> latter is TBD.

Please don't do that.  There is no value in being Sys V ABI compliant and
the original a.out work very well.  I've used it for two and a half
decades now, and still use it on Plan 9.  There just needs to be magic
numbers for the various formats.  I would suggest looking at the
10Edition information for things that arn't as they currently are.

>
> 3. Gcc is tool chain unless someone wants to take on 32V compiler.  May
> take advantage of inline and asm in machine dependent files.
>
> I wouldn't recommend using the 32V compiler, mainly because there
> are so many syntax changes, as well as newer compiler technology,
> missing from it as to make it a very challenging project.

There are a couple of options here.  One is to use one of the compilers
from MIT that will match the code in 32V very closely.  You can google for
these if they aren't already on Warren's site.  The other option
is to use LCC.  I wouldn't use GCC if I were doing it.  (Of course I'm not
so these are just suggestions.)
>
> 4. Gcc cross compile to be used for building.  I'll make this available
> later next month, after I shake out the bugs.
>
> 5. May go to Bitkeeper for source control. More to follow.
>
> 6. License for all new files to be the "revised BSD license."  This is
> compatible with the Caldera license, an "original BSD license" with
> the advertising clause specific to Caldera.  I want to keep it open
> source, and this is the best compromise I see for project license.
>
> 7. May change spln() to more understandable nomenclature, e.g., spl4()
> becomes spltty(), similar to BSD practice.
>
> 8. 32I is the interim name.  I would have preferred Unix version 7, but
> can't for obvious trademark reasons.

I'm not sure if the current trademark owners can retro actively
disassociate a mark after the fact.  If it WAS Unix 32V it still IS Unix 
32v.
I suppose if you do much more than port it to Intel one could argue
that it's not Unix 32V anymore.

>
> Project name still up for grabs.  I was thinking of UNX, named after
> the old DEC name for the facility I work in.  Sort of a tribute to
> days gone by, as is porting 32V.  Probably get into trouble for that
> one as well.
>

  Brantley


From bwc at coraid.com  Tue Nov 18 08:48:23 2003
From: bwc at coraid.com (Brantley Coile)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 17:48:23 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32I status as of 17 Nov 2003
In-Reply-To: <20031117.151725.90804030.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <200311171640.hAHGeOwB024089@wwws.monmouth.com>
	<oprysw7gl4ceuadk@smtp.borf.com> <20031117.151725.90804030.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <oprys0axwyceuadk@smtp.borf.com>

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:17:25 -0700 (MST), M. Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> 
wrote:

> In message: <oprysw7gl4ceuadk at smtp.borf.com>
> Brantley Coile <bwc at coraid.com> writes:
> : > 8. 32I is the interim name.  I would have preferred Unix version 7, 
> but
> : > can't for obvious trademark reasons.
> : : I'm not sure if the current trademark owners can retro actively
> : disassociate a mark after the fact.  If it WAS Unix 32V it still IS 
> Unix : 32v.
> : I suppose if you do much more than port it to Intel one could argue
> : that it's not Unix 32V anymore.
>
> Just because you have a piece of code that was marketed under
> tradename Foo(R) doesn't mean that you have the right to use that
> trade name to market the code.  I'd steer clear of the Unix name
> unless you want the Open Group to contact you (and they will when they
> find out about your use).  While the Open Group is fairly easy to work
> with, there are a number of non-negotiable uses of the word Unix that
> they will not permit.  This is one of them.
>
> Warner
>


I'm no lawyer but I find it hard to believe that if I have a DEC
computer and I refurbish it and give it away that Intel, or HP, or
whoever wound up with the trademark can say anything about it.
There is a huge difference between marketing a product using
a name and a distribution for something that is called UNIX
in the document giving premission to distribute it.  It was
and is UNIX.  Let's call it UNIX.  Can Ken and Dennis be sued
for saying they invented UNIX?

One part of the law suit against BSDI was that they said IT'S UNIX.
1-800-its-unix, and it wasn't, it was BSD.  This is UNIX.

  Brantley


From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue Nov 18 08:17:25 2003
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:17:25 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] 32I status as of 17 Nov 2003
In-Reply-To: <oprysw7gl4ceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
References: <200311171640.hAHGeOwB024089@wwws.monmouth.com>
	<oprysw7gl4ceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
Message-ID: <20031117.151725.90804030.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <oprysw7gl4ceuadk at smtp.borf.com>
            Brantley Coile <bwc at coraid.com> writes:
: > 8. 32I is the interim name.  I would have preferred Unix version 7, but
: > can't for obvious trademark reasons.
: 
: I'm not sure if the current trademark owners can retro actively
: disassociate a mark after the fact.  If it WAS Unix 32V it still IS Unix 
: 32v.
: I suppose if you do much more than port it to Intel one could argue
: that it's not Unix 32V anymore.

Just because you have a piece of code that was marketed under
tradename Foo(R) doesn't mean that you have the right to use that
trade name to market the code.  I'd steer clear of the Unix name
unless you want the Open Group to contact you (and they will when they
find out about your use).  While the Open Group is fairly easy to work
with, there are a number of non-negotiable uses of the word Unix that
they will not permit.  This is one of them.

Warner

From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue Nov 18 09:20:16 2003
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:20:16 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] 32I status as of 17 Nov 2003
In-Reply-To: <oprys0axwyceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
References: <oprysw7gl4ceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
	<20031117.151725.90804030.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<oprys0axwyceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
Message-ID: <20031117.162016.84000120.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <oprys0axwyceuadk at smtp.borf.com>
            Brantley Coile <bwc at coraid.com> writes:
: On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 15:17:25 -0700 (MST), M. Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> 
: wrote:
: > In message: <oprysw7gl4ceuadk at smtp.borf.com>
: > Brantley Coile <bwc at coraid.com> writes:
: > : > 8. 32I is the interim name.  I would have preferred Unix version 7, 
: > but
: > : > can't for obvious trademark reasons.
: > : : I'm not sure if the current trademark owners can retro actively
: > : disassociate a mark after the fact.  If it WAS Unix 32V it still IS 
: > Unix : 32v.
: > : I suppose if you do much more than port it to Intel one could argue
: > : that it's not Unix 32V anymore.
: >
: > Just because you have a piece of code that was marketed under
: > tradename Foo(R) doesn't mean that you have the right to use that
: > trade name to market the code.  I'd steer clear of the Unix name
: > unless you want the Open Group to contact you (and they will when they
: > find out about your use).  While the Open Group is fairly easy to work
: > with, there are a number of non-negotiable uses of the word Unix that
: > they will not permit.  This is one of them.
: >
: > Warner
: >
: 
: 
: I'm no lawyer but I find it hard to believe that if I have a DEC
: computer and I refurbish it and give it away that Intel, or HP, or
: whoever wound up with the trademark can say anything about it.

If you have modified it, creating some mutant thing, they likely can.
Also, there's a fundamental difference between reselling hardware, and
taking software, hacking it and selling it under a name that is
active, even if this software is an earlier version of that name.

: There is a huge difference between marketing a product using
: a name and a distribution for something that is called UNIX
: in the document giving premission to distribute it. It was
: and is UNIX.  Let's call it UNIX.  Can Ken and Dennis be sued
: for saying they invented UNIX?

But since they Ken and Dennis, by way of their former employers, have
sold the rights to the name Unix.  You are setting yourself up for a
call from the Open Group.  I've had to field a couple of those calls
from the Open Group while on FreeBSD core.  The provenance of the code
is not relevant: The Open Group has the the rights to the name Unix,
and you must pass a fairly extensive compatibility test before you are
allowed to use it.

FreeBSD can't even say it is Unix.  It can only say that it is Unix
like.  It is a lot closer to passing all the Unix branding tests than
V32.

: One part of the law suit against BSDI was that they said IT'S UNIX.
: 1-800-its-unix, and it wasn't, it was BSD.  This is UNIX.

Yes.  BSDi lost that part of the lawsuit.

If you want to set yourself up for legal problems, go for it.

I'm not a lawyer, but I've had to deal with IP lawyers while being on
FreeBSD core team and other places enough to know a problem area when
I see it.

Warner

From macbiesz at optonline.net  Tue Nov 18 10:13:47 2003
From: macbiesz at optonline.net (macbiesz at optonline.net)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:13:47 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32I status as of 17 Nov 2003
Message-ID: <185bd17fae.17fae185bd@optonline.net>

Perhaps v7upgrade would make a nice combination with the 32I kernel.

http://www.southern-storm.com.au/v7upgrade.html

Maciek

> >
> > 3. Gcc is tool chain unless someone wants to take on 32V 
> compiler.  May
> > take advantage of inline and asm in machine dependent files.
> >
> > I wouldn't recommend using the 32V compiler, mainly because there
> > are so many syntax changes, as well as newer compiler technology,
> > missing from it as to make it a very challenging project.
> 
> There are a couple of options here.  One is to use one of the 
> compilersfrom MIT that will match the code in 32V very closely.  
> You can google for
> these if they aren't already on Warren's site.  The other option
> is to use LCC.  I wouldn't use GCC if I were doing it.  (Of course 
> I'm not
> so these are just suggestions.)>


From patv at monmouth.com  Tue Nov 18 13:19:06 2003
From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:19:06 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32I status as of 17 Nov 2003
In-Reply-To: <oprysw7gl4ceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
References: <200311171640.hAHGeOwB024089@wwws.monmouth.com>
 <oprysw7gl4ceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
Message-ID: <3FB98FAA.9090507@monmouth.com>

Brantley Coile wrote:
>> 2. Will use coff executable format. May comply with Sys V ABI.  The
>> latter is TBD.
> 
> 
> Please don't do that.  There is no value in being Sys V ABI compliant and
> the original a.out work very well.  I've used it for two and a half
> decades now, and still use it on Plan 9.  There just needs to be magic
> numbers for the various formats.  I would suggest looking at the
> 10Edition information for things that arn't as they currently are.

A large part of my decision is based on using the gcc tool chain.  Since
coff is one of the binary formats, and it was a unix format, I thought
it would work here as well.  I don't see a real need for the ABI, but
may do it if it is easy.

>> 8. 32I is the interim name.  I would have preferred Unix version 7, but
>> can't for obvious trademark reasons.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if the current trademark owners can retro actively
> disassociate a mark after the fact.  If it WAS Unix 32V it still IS Unix 
> 32v.
> I suppose if you do much more than port it to Intel one could argue
> that it's not Unix 32V anymore.

I was one of many who represented DEC at the Open Group during Digital
UNIX certification.  I'm familiar with unix branding, and I know I can't
use the unix trademark, at least not without a lot of rework to the
original source and a lot of money to go to TOG for testing.

Technically, there is new, original code being developed that will be
combined with the original code.  This is a new product, even if the
original code was called unix.  Only the VAX binary can still be called
unix.

I'm an engineer, not a lawyer, but this is my understanding of the subject.

Pat

-- 
I respect faith, but doubt is what gets you an education. -- Wilson Mizner




From patv at monmouth.com  Tue Nov 18 13:40:51 2003
From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:40:51 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32I status as of 17 Nov 2003
In-Reply-To: <20031117.162016.84000120.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <oprysw7gl4ceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
 <20031117.151725.90804030.imp@bsdimp.com> <oprys0axwyceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
 <20031117.162016.84000120.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <3FB994C3.2020404@monmouth.com>

M. Warner Losh wrote:
> I'm not a lawyer, but I've had to deal with IP lawyers while being on
> FreeBSD core team and other places enough to know a problem area when
> I see it.

Absolutely correct, Warner.  Even calling it UNX, after the DEC site 
code, is asking for trouble.  Needless to say, it won't be called unix, 
or anything similar, any time soon, if ever.

Pat

-- 
Most turkeys taste better the day after; my mother's tasted better the 
day before. -- Rita Rudner



From patv at monmouth.com  Thu Nov 20 13:37:25 2003
From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:37:25 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] SCO To Expand Its Lawsuit Beyond Linux
Message-ID: <3FBC36F5.2040105@monmouth.com>

I wonder how much trouble 32I will be:

<http://www.atnewyork.com/news/article.php/3110981>

Pat


-- 
Technology is a way of organizing the universe so that man doesn't have 
to experience it. -- Max Frisch



From grog at lemis.com  Thu Nov 20 13:55:24 2003
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 14:25:24 +1030
Subject: [TUHS] SCO To Expand Its Lawsuit Beyond Linux
In-Reply-To: <3FBC36F5.2040105@monmouth.com>
References: <3FBC36F5.2040105@monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <20031120035524.GL22360@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 19 November 2003 at 22:37:25 -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> I wonder how much trouble 32I will be:
>
> <http://www.atnewyork.com/news/article.php/3110981>

Depends on whether you believe SCO.  

  http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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From kwall at kurtwerks.com  Thu Nov 20 15:03:08 2003
From: kwall at kurtwerks.com (Kurt Wall)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 00:03:08 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] SCO To Expand Its Lawsuit Beyond Linux
In-Reply-To: <20031120035524.GL22360@wantadilla.lemis.com>
References: <3FBC36F5.2040105@monmouth.com>
	<20031120035524.GL22360@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <20031120050308.GF1010@kurtwerks.com>

Consuming 1.3K bytes, Greg 'groggy' Lehey blathered:
> On Wednesday, 19 November 2003 at 22:37:25 -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> > I wonder how much trouble 32I will be:
> >
> > <http://www.atnewyork.com/news/article.php/3110981>
> 
> Depends on whether you believe SCO.  
> 
>   http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/

I'd say that SCO have pretty convincingly demonstrated that they
cannot be trusted. Would anyone here sign a contract with SCO
today?

Kurt
-- 
Anyone who goes to a psychiatrist ought to have his head examined.
		-- Samuel Goldwyn

From patv at monmouth.com  Thu Nov 20 20:45:36 2003
From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 05:45:36 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] SCO To Expand Its Lawsuit Beyond Linux
In-Reply-To: <20031120035524.GL22360@wantadilla.lemis.com>
References: <3FBC36F5.2040105@monmouth.com>
 <20031120035524.GL22360@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <3FBC9B50.80402@monmouth.com>

I know I'm well within my rights to port the code.  I've kept copies of 
the license and modified the sources I'm working on to include the 
Caldera license, BSD style.  The only potential problem is that it may 
be a lightning rod and I could loose permission to complete the project.

Just thought I'd pass along the latest SCO craziness.

Pat

Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Wednesday, 19 November 2003 at 22:37:25 -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> 
>>I wonder how much trouble 32I will be:
>>
>><http://www.atnewyork.com/news/article.php/3110981>
> 
> 
> Depends on whether you believe SCO.  
> 
>   http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/
> 
> Greg
> --
> Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.

-- 
Technology is a way of organizing the universe so that man doesn't have 
to experience it. -- Max Frisch



From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Thu Nov 20 21:14:19 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (wes.parish at paradise.net.nz)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 00:14:19 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [TUHS] SCO To Expand Its Lawsuit Beyond Linux
In-Reply-To: <3FBC36F5.2040105@monmouth.com>
References: <3FBC36F5.2040105@monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <1069326859.3fbca20bc87df@www.paradise.net.nz>

Quoting Pat Villani <patv at monmouth.com>: 
 
> I wonder how much trouble 32I will be: 
>  
> <http://www.atnewyork.com/news/article.php/3110981> 
>  
> Pat 
>  
 
I'm just reading Groklaw 
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031119041719640 
and I'd have to say that  
SCO Group (Quote, Chart) CEO Darl McBride said his company is currently 
comparing source code awarded in a 1994 settlement between AT&T's (Quote, 
Chart) Unix Systems Laboratories and BSD, in which Berkeley's version of the 
Unix source was severed from the proprietary version. 
 
probably describes Darl and co., sitting around a trailerload of raw alcohol 
and scrawling something down on a piece of paper each time someone throws up. 
 
Nothing else describes their recent habits. 
 
Wesley Parish 
 
>  
> --  
> Technology is a way of organizing the universe so that man doesn't have 
>  
> to experience it. -- Max Frisch 
>  
>  
> _______________________________________________ 
> TUHS mailing list 
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org 
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs 
>   

From asmodai at ao.mine.nu  Thu Nov 20 22:51:55 2003
From: asmodai at ao.mine.nu (Paul Ward)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 12:51:55 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] SCO To Expand Its Lawsuit Beyond Linux
In-Reply-To: <1069326859.3fbca20bc87df@www.paradise.net.nz>
References: <3FBC36F5.2040105@monmouth.com>
 <1069326859.3fbca20bc87df@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <130286625756.20031120125155@ao.mine.nu>

Hello wes,

Thursday, November 20, 2003, 11:14:19 AM, you wrote:

wppnn> Quoting Pat Villani <patv at monmouth.com>: 
 
>> I wonder how much trouble 32I will be: 
>>  
>> <http://www.atnewyork.com/news/article.php/3110981> 
>>  
>> Pat 
>>  
 
wppnn> I'm just reading Groklaw 
wppnn> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031119041719640 
wppnn> and I'd have to say that  
wppnn> SCO Group (Quote, Chart) CEO Darl McBride said his company is currently
wppnn> comparing source code awarded in a 1994 settlement between AT&T's (Quote,
wppnn> Chart) Unix Systems Laboratories and BSD, in which Berkeley's version of the
wppnn> Unix source was severed from the proprietary version. 
 
wppnn> probably describes Darl and co., sitting around a trailerload of raw alcohol
wppnn> and scrawling something down on a piece of paper each time someone throws up.
 
wppnn> Nothing else describes their recent habits. 
 
wppnn> Wesley Parish 

Minix is probably next on their list for, oh... I dont know... having
concepts remotely in common with 7th edition?

Maybe SCO should do over the Xinu guys too -- just for a laugh.
Oh, and maybe MWC too, just because McBride has obviously had too much
Jolt Cola, or Southern Comfort, or maybe both... mixed in with a lot of
prozac.

But, in answer to their question about "who would you say Unix belongs
to"... I'd have said The Open Group... but it seems that owning the
source code is more important.

Hmm, radical idea here SCO... but, instead of trying to sue everyone
and his goat, why not make UnixWare better than the festering lump it
is now... then you could compete with IBM and Sun etc - oh, and maybe
even fire the troll who thinks that sed is an interactive editor and
wrote so in the UnixWare manual.

P.S. If SCO are of the opinion that IBM have made AIX available under
open source... where can I get the kernel source? ;)

-- 
Best regards,
 Paul                            mailto:asmodai at ao.mine.nu


From bwc at coraid.com  Fri Nov 21 01:55:48 2003
From: bwc at coraid.com (Brantley Coile)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 10:55:48 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] SCO's additional law suits
Message-ID: <opryx07ak9ceuadk@smtp.borf.com>


Wonder where they are getting the money to do this?  Who has the most
to gain by shutting down BSD and LINUX?
 Brantley Coile

From kwall at kurtwerks.com  Fri Nov 21 02:04:54 2003
From: kwall at kurtwerks.com (Kurt Wall)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:04:54 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] SCO To Expand Its Lawsuit Beyond Linux
In-Reply-To: <130286625756.20031120125155@ao.mine.nu>
References: <3FBC36F5.2040105@monmouth.com>
	<1069326859.3fbca20bc87df@www.paradise.net.nz>
	<130286625756.20031120125155@ao.mine.nu>
Message-ID: <20031120160454.GA26836@kurtwerks.com>

Consuming 2.1K bytes, Paul Ward blathered:
> 
> Hmm, radical idea here SCO... but, instead of trying to sue everyone
> and his goat, why not make UnixWare better than the festering lump it
> is now... then you could compete with IBM and Sun etc - oh, and maybe
> even fire the troll who thinks that sed is an interactive editor and
> wrote so in the UnixWare manual.

s/troll/moron/ ;-)

Kurt
-- 
The first myth of management is that it exists.  The second myth of
management is that success equals skill.
		-- Robert Heller

From kwall at kurtwerks.com  Fri Nov 21 02:06:20 2003
From: kwall at kurtwerks.com (Kurt Wall)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 11:06:20 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] SCO's additional law suits
In-Reply-To: <opryx07ak9ceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
References: <opryx07ak9ceuadk@smtp.borf.com>
Message-ID: <20031120160620.GB26836@kurtwerks.com>

Consuming 0.3K bytes, Brantley Coile blathered:
> 
> Wonder where they are getting the money to do this?  Who has the most
> to gain by shutting down BSD and LINUX?

>From the trogolodytes that recently invested $US50,000,000, presumably.

Kurt
-- 
A gleekzorp without a tornpee is like a quop without a fertsneet (sort
of).

From kstailey at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 21 07:09:12 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:09:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] Why Caldera Released Unix: A Brief History
Message-ID: <20031120210912.28842.qmail@web60505.mail.yahoo.com>

http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2002/02/28/caldera.html



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

From kstailey at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 21 07:38:35 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 13:38:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS]  =?iso-8859-1?q?SCO_reveals_major_UNIX=99_IP_violations?=
Message-ID: <20031120213835.41947.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com>

an excerpt:

<< SCO this week said it was "examining" the AT&T settlement to see who might
have leaked the ancient AT&T-derived UNIX� code and put it into a BSD
distribution. Allowing such hallowed innovations to be used under an open
source license, would, we agreed thoroughly devalue SCO's IP assets.

So we set about looking for who could perpetrate such a foul violation. And
deep on a warez site of dubious origins, we unearthed a highly incriminating
statement.

There we found a script kiddie shameless boasting of his crime. The poster
claimed that he'd released -

"... the ancient UNIX releases (V1-7 and 32V) under a "BSD-style" license. I've
attached a PDF of the license letter hereto. Feel free to propogate it as you
see fit"

Propagate? We shivered. The subject line of the email confirmed our worst
fears.

[...]

So after a little digging, we traced this serious UNIX� violation to a hacker
outfit called "Caldera Inc." The email was datelined 23 Jan 2002.

Perhaps using an assumed identity, the hacker signed himself as "Dion L.
Johnson II - Product Manager and one of many open source enthusiasts in Caldera
Intl."

We shall be doing some more digging soon, to see where these hackers can be
traced.

And as dutiful citizens, we shall inform The SCO Group of these violations as
our enquiries continue. As soon as we find out who these Caldera hackers are.
Can you help? >>

complete article:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/34102.html
 

__________________________________
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Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Fri Nov 21 07:44:44 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 16:44:44 -0500
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_=5BTUHS=5D__SCO_reveals_major_UNIXT_IP_violations?=
In-Reply-To: <20031120213835.41947.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000f01c3afaf$8320ac40$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
Kenneth, doesn't that mean, that their case can be closed, because
they themselves are the guilty party? Caldera was bought by SCO. Why,
I can't imagine, though. I remember reading that PDF, as it sits on
the website that hosts our list, just to make sure I could use their
products. I'd laugh at their stupidity, but its not worth laughing at.

-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Kenneth Stailey
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 4:39 PM
> To: TUHS at tuhs.org
> Subject: [TUHS] SCO reveals major UNIX IP violations
> 
> an excerpt:
> 
> << SCO this week said it was "examining" the AT&T settlement to see
who might
> have leaked the ancient AT&T-derived UNIX code and put it into a
BSD
> distribution. Allowing such hallowed innovations to be used under an
open
> source license, would, we agreed thoroughly devalue SCO's IP assets.
> 
> So we set about looking for who could perpetrate such a foul
violation. And
> deep on a warez site of dubious origins, we unearthed a highly
incriminating
> statement.
> 
> There we found a script kiddie shameless boasting of his crime. The
poster
> claimed that he'd released -
> 
> "... the ancient UNIX releases (V1-7 and 32V) under a "BSD-style"
license. I've
> attached a PDF of the license letter hereto. Feel free to propogate
it as you
> see fit"
> 
> Propagate? We shivered. The subject line of the email confirmed our
worst
> fears.
> 
> [...]
> 
> So after a little digging, we traced this serious UNIX violation to
a hacker
> outfit called "Caldera Inc." The email was datelined 23 Jan 2002.
> 
> Perhaps using an assumed identity, the hacker signed himself as
"Dion L.
> Johnson II - Product Manager and one of many open source enthusiasts
in Caldera
> Intl."
> 
> We shall be doing some more digging soon, to see where these hackers
can be
> traced.
> 
> And as dutiful citizens, we shall inform The SCO Group of these
violations as
> our enquiries continue. As soon as we find out who these Caldera
hackers are.
> Can you help? >>
> 
> complete article:
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/34102.html
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From tuhs at rops.org  Fri Nov 21 09:21:52 2003
From: tuhs at rops.org (Roger Willcocks)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:21:52 -0000
Subject: [TUHS]  SCO reveals major UNIXT IP violations
References: <000f01c3afaf$8320ac40$0100a8c0@who5>
Message-ID: <006001c3afbd$1464b590$2301a8c0@burton>

Keep laughing - the Message-Id of Dion Johnson's email (as archived at
http://www.lemis.com/grog/UNIX/) is 20020123150337.A12595 at sco.com

--
Roger

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gregg C Levine" <hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net>
To: "'Kenneth Stailey'" <kstailey at yahoo.com>; <TUHS at tuhs.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 9:44 PM
Subject: RE: [TUHS] SCO reveals major UNIXT IP violations


Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
Kenneth, doesn't that mean, that their case can be closed, because
they themselves are the guilty party? Caldera was bought by SCO. Why,
I can't imagine, though. I remember reading that PDF, as it sits on
the website that hosts our list, just to make sure I could use their
products. I'd laugh at their stupidity, but its not worth laughing at.

-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke." Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Kenneth Stailey
> Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 4:39 PM
> To: TUHS at tuhs.org
> Subject: [TUHS] SCO reveals major UNIXT IP violations
> 
> an excerpt:
> 
> << SCO this week said it was "examining" the AT&T settlement to see
who might
> have leaked the ancient AT&T-derived UNIXT code and put it into a
BSD
> distribution. Allowing such hallowed innovations to be used under an
open
> source license, would, we agreed thoroughly devalue SCO's IP assets.
> 
> So we set about looking for who could perpetrate such a foul
violation. And
> deep on a warez site of dubious origins, we unearthed a highly
incriminating
> statement.
> 
> There we found a script kiddie shameless boasting of his crime. The
poster
> claimed that he'd released -
> 
> "... the ancient UNIX releases (V1-7 and 32V) under a "BSD-style"
license. I've
> attached a PDF of the license letter hereto. Feel free to propogate
it as you
> see fit"
> 
> Propagate? We shivered. The subject line of the email confirmed our
worst
> fears.
> 
> [...]
> 
> So after a little digging, we traced this serious UNIXT violation to
a hacker
> outfit called "Caldera Inc." The email was datelined 23 Jan 2002.
> 
> Perhaps using an assumed identity, the hacker signed himself as
"Dion L.
> Johnson II - Product Manager and one of many open source enthusiasts
in Caldera
> Intl."
> 
> We shall be doing some more digging soon, to see where these hackers
can be
> traced.
> 
> And as dutiful citizens, we shall inform The SCO Group of these
violations as
> our enquiries continue. As soon as we find out who these Caldera
hackers are.
> Can you help? >>
> 
> complete article:
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/34102.html
> 
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

_______________________________________________
TUHS mailing list
TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Fri Nov 21 10:25:50 2003
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 19:25:50 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] SCO reveals major UNIXT IP violations
Message-ID: <20031121002625.6376A1F3D@minnie.tuhs.org>

Gregg C Levine:

  Kenneth, doesn't that mean, that their case can be closed, because
  they themselves are the guilty party? Caldera was bought by SCO.

I thought it was the other way around: Caldera bought the UNIX-OS part
of SCO, then (around the time the current fracas started) renamed
themselves The SCO Group.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From grog at lemis.com  Fri Nov 21 10:32:50 2003
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2003 11:02:50 +1030
Subject: [TUHS] SCO reveals major UNIXT IP violations
In-Reply-To: <20031121002625.6376A1F3D@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20031121002625.6376A1F3D@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20031121003250.GD32267@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Thursday, 20 November 2003 at 19:25:50 -0500, Norman Wilson wrote:
> Gregg C Levine:
>
>   Kenneth, doesn't that mean, that their case can be closed, because
>   they themselves are the guilty party? Caldera was bought by SCO.
>
> I thought it was the other way around: Caldera bought the UNIX-OS part
> of SCO, then (around the time the current fracas started) renamed
> themselves The SCO Group.

Yes, that's correct.  The Caldera that gave away ancient UNIX last
year is the SCO that is going to sue the BSDs for using it this year.

Greg
--
Note: The opinions expressed here are my own and have no relationship
with the opinions or official viewpoints of any organization with
which I am associated.

Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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From ak at synflood.at  Fri Nov 21 08:01:08 2003
From: ak at synflood.at (Andreas Krennmair)
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:01:08 +0100
Subject: [TUHS]  SCO reveals major UNIXT IP violations
In-Reply-To: <000f01c3afaf$8320ac40$0100a8c0@who5>
References: <20031120213835.41947.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com>
	<000f01c3afaf$8320ac40$0100a8c0@who5>
Message-ID: <20031120220106.GA29655@aon.at>

* Gregg C Levine <hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net> [03-11-20 22:48]:
> Kenneth, doesn't that mean, that their case can be closed, because
> they themselves are the guilty party? Caldera was bought by SCO. Why,

No, Caldera bought SCO, and then renamed itself to "The SCO Group".

> products. I'd laugh at their stupidity, but its not worth laughing at.

They are definitely not stupid. They exactly know what they're doing.
IMHO they are one of the great masters of FUD, besides Microsoft.

In Europe, SCO was practically shut down. They can't say anything about
the claimed "IP theft"[0] in the Linux source code without getting fined
with EUR 250000 (about US-$ 297500). And they were already fined twice.
I don't understand why people in the US can't do this. In principle, the
laws aren't too different, after all.

Regards,
Andreas Krennmair
[0]: a good friend of mine, a lawyer, told me, that there's a standard
     book about European copyright/author's right, saying that the
     so-called "intellectual property" is nothing more than a "confusion
     of legislation theory" (kludgy translation, I hope you understand
     it), i.e. law experts and lawyers that don't make money out of IP
     lawsuits find the whole IP thing more than ridiculous.
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From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu Nov 27 19:58:56 2003
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 19:58:56 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Anybody with a copy of this paper?
Message-ID: <20031127095856.GA89998@minnie.tuhs.org>

Hi all, would anybody have a copy of this paper:

Multiprocessor UNIX operating systems.
Bach, M.J., and Buroff. S.J.
Bell Systems. Tech. J. 63. 8 (Oct. 1984) 1733-1749.

If so, would you be able to scan it in and e-mail it to me, or even
photocopy it and post it to me? I'll reimburse you for time & postage.

Thanks in advance,
	Warren

From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Nov 28 07:32:07 2003
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 07:32:07 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Anybody with a copy of this paper?
In-Reply-To: <20031127095856.GA89998@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20031127095856.GA89998@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20031127213207.GA94121@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 07:58:56PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hi all, would anybody have a copy of this paper:
> Multiprocessor UNIX operating systems.
> Bach, M.J., and Buroff. S.J.
> Bell Systems. Tech. J. 63. 8 (Oct. 1984) 1733-1749.

Thanks to Grant Maziels and Brantley Coile who have offered to scan it
in for me. Actually, I just realised that I might have this paper buried
in a pile of papers at work, so I'll dig for it when I get in this morning.

I'm trying to build up a history of the publicly available documents that
describe SMP in UNIX (i.e methods and techniques, not code), and so I'm
after papers, books, theses, seminar writeups etc. Once I've done this,
I might get the itch to do the same for other things, like NUMA or
journalling filesystems. You never know when such a history might come in
handy.

Anyway, if you know of these things are have references to published
documents, feel free to e-mail me citations, URLs, whole papers etc. :-)

Thanks all,
	Warren

From Bryan.Cantrill at eng.sun.com  Fri Nov 28 08:13:36 2003
From: Bryan.Cantrill at eng.sun.com (Bryan Cantrill)
Date: Thu, 27 Nov 2003 14:13:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] Anybody with a copy of this paper?
In-Reply-To: <20031127213207.GA94121@minnie.tuhs.org> from Warren Toomey at
	"Nov 28, 2003 07:32:07 am"
Message-ID: <200311272213.hARMDaJA515395@jurassic.eng.sun.com>


Warren,

> On Thu, Nov 27, 2003 at 07:58:56PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > Hi all, would anybody have a copy of this paper:
> > Multiprocessor UNIX operating systems.
> > Bach, M.J., and Buroff. S.J.
> > Bell Systems. Tech. J. 63. 8 (Oct. 1984) 1733-1749.
> 
> Thanks to Grant Maziels and Brantley Coile who have offered to scan it
> in for me. Actually, I just realised that I might have this paper buried
> in a pile of papers at work, so I'll dig for it when I get in this morning.

If it helps you find it, that BSTJ has a yellow cover, and the words
"The UNIX System" in Star Wars-esque font.  (It _was_ 1984, after all.)

> I'm trying to build up a history of the publicly available documents that
> describe SMP in UNIX (i.e methods and techniques, not code), and so I'm
> after papers, books, theses, seminar writeups etc. Once I've done this,

Much of the state-of-the-art hasn't been too widely disseminated.  The
know-how lives/lived in a handful of companies -- notably SGI, Sequent,
and Sun.  Unfortunately, we (the industry) haven't done a good job
discussing our experiences -- and as a result there's a huge amount of
misunderstanding out there.  (Usually in the form of fear-and-loathing
about the cost of synchronization primitives or complete ignorance about
the software ramifications of snoopy protocols.)  

The best book out there is definitely Curt Schimmel's "UNIX Systems for
Modern Architectures."  One could almost certainly write a second volume
to this (and a third, and a fourth), but the audience is very, very small.

In terms of papers outlining somewhat more recent techniques, check out 
Bonwick and Adams, "Magazines and Vmem:  Extending the Slab Allocator
to Many CPUs and Arbitrary Resources."  This was presented at USENIX in
2001; see http://www.parrotcode.org/talks/vmem.pdf.

Unfortunately, we (the industry) never wrote a paper on the tools we use
to improve the scalability of UNIX.  SGI and Sun both have "lockstat" tools;
you can google each.  (Sun's lockstat shipped in Solaris 2.6; if you have
a Solaris box, you can man lockstat.)  Presumably other vendors have tools
as well; to the best of my knowledge none of us ever described them in
a refereed paper.

And should you be interested in an arcane postmortem technique that I
developed to find false-sharing, see Cantrill, "Postmortem Object Type 
Identification."  I presented this at AADEBUG 2003; it can be found at
http://arxiv.org/pdf/cs.SE/0309037.

It will be interesting to hear about what else you find...

	- Bryan

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Cantrill, Solaris Kernel Development.  bmc at eng.sun.com  (650) 786-3652

From dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com  Fri Nov 28 17:36:17 2003
From: dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com (Dennis Ritchie)
Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 02:36:17 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re:  Anybody with a copy of this paper?
Message-ID: <53bc77224fac72021ff9cb8b9b0a5232@plan9.bell-labs.com>

I see that Maziels and Coile have already offered
to scan (or copy) the Bach & Buroff paper.  I have
it too, just haven't scanned it.

The original requester should also try to find
the even earlier work on Unix multiprocessing:

Hawley, J. A., Meyer, W. D. (1975) MUNIX: A Multiprocessing Version of UNIX,
MoS. Thesis, Naval Postgraduate School - Monterey. June.
 
Goble, G.H. and M.H.Marsh, "A Dual Processor VAX 11/780",
Purdue University Technical Report, TR-EE 81-31, Sept. 1981. 

This used to be at

http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/vax/paper.html

but for some reason Goble's pages have been
withdrawn.  Probably it's at www.archive.org,
but that seems unavailable just now.

	Dennis


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Sat Nov 29 19:27:04 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:27:04 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code
In-Reply-To: <E1AProP-00046p-S3@fencepost.gnu.org>
References: <1069759627.3fc33c8bf250a@www.paradise.net.nz>
 <E1AOtEc-0004E2-NC@fencepost.gnu.org>
 <1069931747.3fc5dce357a72@www.paradise.net.nz>
 <E1AProP-00046p-S3@fencepost.gnu.org>
Message-ID: <1070098024.3fc8666877175@www.paradise.net.nz>

In that case, do you have any objections to me siccing the TUHS(The Unix 
Heritage Soc.)http://www.tuhs.org/ /PUPS(PDP11 Unix Preservation 
Soc.)http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/ people on to it? 
 
It is something that interests us, and there'll be at least one list member 
within driving range of Cambridge, Mass., with plenty of time to examine the 
tape. 
 
I'll cc' this ove to those lists and let anyone who's interested, get in touch 
with you. 
 
Thanks heaps. 
 
Wesley Parish 
 
Quoting Richard Stallman <rms at gnu.org>: 
 
> I don't know where to find a copy of TRIX. I saw a cartridge tape 
> recently that has some Nu machine software, and might have TRIX, 
> but I don't know. I don't have a drive to read the tape with 
> or the time to do it. 
>   
 
 
 
"I me.  Shape middled me.  I would come out into hot!"  
I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the  
other horizon.  

From macbiesz at optonline.net  Sun Nov 30 01:36:04 2003
From: macbiesz at optonline.net (macbiesz at optonline.net)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:36:04 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re:  Anybody with a copy of this paper?
Message-ID: <d698c1b2.c1b2d698@optonline.net>

I've found that paper here:

http://web.archive.org/web/19980111042611/http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/vax/paper.html

Surprisingly, the graphics in that paper are still shown.

Maciek

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Ritchie <dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com>
Date: Friday, November 28, 2003 2:36 am
Subject: [TUHS] Re:  Anybody with a copy of this paper?

> I see that Maziels and Coile have already offered
> to scan (or copy) the Bach & Buroff paper.  I have
> it too, just haven't scanned it.
> 
> The original requester should also try to find
> the even earlier work on Unix multiprocessing:
> 
> Hawley, J. A., Meyer, W. D. (1975) MUNIX: A Multiprocessing 
> Version of UNIX,
> MoS. Thesis, Naval Postgraduate School - Monterey. June.
> 
> Goble, G.H. and M.H.Marsh, "A Dual Processor VAX 11/780",
> Purdue University Technical Report, TR-EE 81-31, Sept. 1981. 
> 
> This used to be at
> 
> http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/vax/paper.html
> 
> but for some reason Goble's pages have been
> withdrawn.  Probably it's at www.archive.org,
> but that seems unavailable just now.
> 
> 	Dennis
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 


From kstailey at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 30 02:57:38 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 08:57:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re:  Anybody with a copy of this paper?
In-Reply-To: <53bc77224fac72021ff9cb8b9b0a5232@plan9.bell-labs.com>
Message-ID: <20031129165738.33029.qmail@web60501.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Dennis Ritchie <dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> I see that Maziels and Coile have already offered
> to scan (or copy) the Bach & Buroff paper.  I have
> it too, just haven't scanned it.
> 
> The original requester should also try to find
> the even earlier work on Unix multiprocessing:
> 
> Hawley, J. A., Meyer, W. D. (1975) MUNIX: A Multiprocessing Version of UNIX,
> MoS. Thesis, Naval Postgraduate School - Monterey. June.
>  
> Goble, G.H. and M.H.Marsh, "A Dual Processor VAX 11/780",
> Purdue University Technical Report, TR-EE 81-31, Sept. 1981. 
> 
> This used to be at
> 
> http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/vax/paper.html
> 
> but for some reason Goble's pages have been
> withdrawn.  Probably it's at www.archive.org,
> but that seems unavailable just now.
> 
> 	Dennis

This one worked for me:

http://web.archive.org/web/19990429054912/http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/vax/paper.html

This redirect will take you to that page:

http://tinyurl.com/wzyh


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

From arnold at skeeve.com  Sun Nov 30 05:09:31 2003
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 21:09:31 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] old Software Tools VOS, anyone?
Message-ID: <200311291909.hATJ9VSk021709@skeeve.com>

Greetings all.

Does anyone have any of the old Software Tools Virtual Operating System
code?  I know someone who is looking for it.   On a related topic, if
anyone has a copy of the Georgia Tech Software Tools Subsystem for Pr1me
Computers, the same person would like a copy (as would I --- I was one
of the two people who did the last two releases of it).

Thanks,

Arnold Robbins

From spedraja at ono.com  Sun Nov 30 02:13:31 2003
From: spedraja at ono.com (SP)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 17:13:31 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] OT: Searching source code
References: <d698c1b2.c1b2d698@optonline.net>
Message-ID: <020201c3b693$bbdbd560$0e02a8c0@WorkGroup>

Hello. I am searching the source code for Veronica Gopher Search System and
Archie System. The places where these code could be obtained in some moment
are closed. Someone has some of these available in some place ? I should
agree to obtain one copy.

This is involved in some work I'm doing to put alive one machine with some
deprecated Inet services up and running. I was success with gopher and wais,
but I should like to put these other too. The final goal would be to
translate all the code to modern platforms.

Thanks and Greetings

-----
Sergio Pedraja
Santander
Cantabria - Spain




From patv at monmouth.com  Sun Nov 30 14:12:27 2003
From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 23:12:27 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32I: spl*() and paging up
Message-ID: <3FC96E2B.1030200@monmouth.com>

A quick update.

I have spl*() code as well as ia32 paging up in a small test kernel. 
More testing remains to be done before integrating into 32I kernel. 
Interrupt structure working well, as well as system call interface.

Still need copyin(), copyout(), fubyte(), fuibyte(), fuword(), etc., as 
well as save(), resume(), etc.

Future progress will slow down a little.  I have accepted an adjunct 
teaching position, and will need to devote some otherwise free time to 
preparing lessons.  I still expect to have a preliminary running kernel 
by New Years.

Pat
	
-- 
I've always found paranoia to be a perfectly defensible position. -- Pat 
Conroy



