From agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu  Fri Jan  1 09:46:16 1999
From: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:46:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bob Supnik Emulator and V6
In-Reply-To: <368A5145.BE11CED3@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9812311838460.20487-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>


Hi, I am very new to the Old Editions of Unix and PDP. I got licensed
recently, and I have been using the Binary Distrubutions of V6 and V7.

I am having trouble unpacking the v6.tape on Bob Supnik's Emulator. 

In the v6 installation guide it says to key in the

012700
172526
010040
012740
060003
000777


Using the Emulator, I deposit the instructions into 100000.

I attach the Tape and Disk using this:
> att tm0 v6.tape
> att rk0 v6root

I then run the instructions:
> run 100000

The Computer hangs, I break out of it. Then I type:
> boot tm0

It gives me a `=` prompt..

The Installation guide tells me to type:
> tmrk.

The emulator just freezes after this.

This may sound like a easy question, but I am very new to this.


Any help or pointers on getting UNIX V6 up and running on my Emulator
would be very helpful.

Thanks.

*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu
*********************************




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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Fri Jan  1 09:53:07 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:53:07 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Bob Supnik Emulator and V6
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9812311838460.20487-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Dec 31, 98 06:46:16 pm"
Message-ID: <199812312353.KAA25121@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> Any help or pointers on getting UNIX V6 up and running on my Emulator
> would be very helpful.
> Thanks.

Right at the bottom of the simh_doc.txt file, there are instructions
on how to boot the v6 image which comes with Bob Supnik's emulator.
That is the easiest way to get v6 up and running!

Cheers,
	Warren


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sat Jan  2 16:16:00 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:16:00 +1100 (EST)
Subject: New Apout Sim Version
Message-ID: <199901020616.RAA25768@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	Welcome to 1999, I hope you all had a good Christmas and New Year.
I've just released a new version of my Apout PDP-11 simulator at

	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/

The 6th/7th Edition stuff is untouched, but the emulator can now run
a significant number of binaries from 2.11BSD: /bin/sh, make, the C
compiler, most of /bin and /usr/bin. I've been able to rebuild both
ls and sh from the sources.

Although the emulated 2.11BSD environment isn't complete, its enough
to be nearly useful!

Cheers all,
	Warren


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sun Jan  3 21:51:45 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:51:45 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Yet Another Apout Version
Message-ID: <199901031151.WAA26388@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Hmm,
	The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing,
and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop.
I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in:

	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/

Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was
able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of
the binaries in /bin.

I've even (nearly) been able to build the GENERIC 2.11BSD kernel
in /sys/GENERIC, but I get:

# make
   ....
ld -X -i -o unix scb.o  mch_backup.o mch_click.o mch_copy.o .....
sys_process.o  syscalls.o ufs_mount.o -Z hk.o init_main.o kern_prot.o
tty_pty.o quota_kern.o quota_subr.o  quota_ufs.o vm_swp.o vm_swap.o
vm_proc.o -Z ht.o tm.o ts.o -Z tmscp.o tmscpdump.o  -Z rl.o
mch_fpsim.o ingreslock.o ufs_disksubr.o -Z rx.o kern_sysctl.o
vm_sched.o vm_text.o -Z kern_pdp.o kern_xxx.o ufs_syscalls2.o mem.o
ufs_subr.o rk.o sys_pipe.o  kern_sig2.o toy.o subr_log.o -Z  -Z
-Z   -Z  -Z  -Z  -Y  vers.o -lkern param.o
Undefined:
_proc
_file
_text
*** Exit 1

Stop.
# ls -l unix
-rw-------  1 root       195480 Jan  3 03:41 unix

Steven, any ideas as to the problem? I had to do two operations manually
(using 32-bit native tools):

sh ../conf/newvers.sh
/bin/ed - param.s < ../conf/:comm-to-bss

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From msokolov at harrier.Uznet.NET  Mon Jan  4 03:16:23 1999
From: msokolov at harrier.Uznet.NET (Michael Sokolov)
Date: 3 Jan 1999   17:16:23 GMT
Subject: Time machine
Message-ID: <199901031716.WAA04342@harrier.Uznet.NET>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

Have you ever wished to have a time machine? Have you ever wished to travel
back to 1988, to the time when 4.3BSD-Tahoe was the latest release and the SCCS
deltas corresponding to it were the most recent deltas? Well, at least I do.

Although unfortunately real time travel is still limited to the X-Files, I have
come up with a pretty good approximation, a time machine program. This program
turns the Universe clock backwards on a given SCCS file, pruning it down to a
given delta, specified either as an SID or as a delta serial number. The bulk
of the work is done by the SCCS rmdel command. This command, however, can only
delete one delta at a time and still leaves an audit trail in the delta table.
My package consists of a shell script and two C programs that compensate these
deficiencies. The result is that the SCCS file becomes byte-for-byte identical
to the one that existed at the time you have chosen, just like with a real time
machine!

I include this package below as a uuencoded gzipped tarball. See the README
file inside.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at harrier.Uznet.NET

Enclosure: uuencoded tmachine.tar.gz:

begin 644 tmachine.tar.gz
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`
end


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From mirian at xensei.com  Mon Jan  4 05:20:02 1999
From: mirian at xensei.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox)
Date: 03 Jan 1999 14:20:02 -0500
Subject: Ancient SunOS source
In-Reply-To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"'s message of "Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST)"
References: <199812161520.KAA28340@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <m31zlccgf1.fsf@trantor.cosmic.com>

Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence.  I'm
curious as to what progress has been made on that.  I'm
enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.

-- 
Mirian Crzig Lennox                                Systems Anarchist
          "There's a New World Order coming every minute.
                      Make mine extra cheese."


From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Mon Jan  4 07:48:20 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:48:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ancient SunOS source
In-Reply-To: <m31zlccgf1.fsf@trantor.cosmic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103134337.31034A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>



On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:

> Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
> sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence.  I'm
> curious as to what progress has been made on that.  I'm
> enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
> SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.

Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?


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From mirian at xensei.com  Mon Jan  4 07:52:16 1999
From: mirian at xensei.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox)
Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500
Subject: Ancient SunOS source
In-Reply-To: "Erin W. Corliss"'s message of "Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:48:20 -0800 (PST)"
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103134337.31034A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>
Message-ID: <m3lnjk81nz.fsf@trantor.cosmic.com>

"Erin W. Corliss" <erin at coffee.corliss.net> writes:

> On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> 
> > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
> > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence.  I'm
> > curious as to what progress has been made on that.  I'm
> > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
> > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
> 
> Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?

Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure...  I'm just looking
forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS.
Call it nostalgia, or something like that.  :)

-- 
Mirian Crzig Lennox                                Systems Anarchist
          "There's a New World Order coming every minute.
                      Make mine extra cheese."

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From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Mon Jan  4 08:11:30 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:11:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103140148.31189A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>


Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify
the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52
drive like an array of six RL drives?

I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two
drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar...  I
assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble
or modify the kernel, tho.

I also recently solved the disk image dilemma -- I made a utility in
Visual Basic that lets you examine, import, and export files on various
disk images.  The disk-specific parts are in interchangeable ActiveX
modules -- right now I only have code for RK06 disk images with Unix 6 or
RSTS file systems, but the model is easily expandable to any
drive/filesystem combination.  I'll put it on my web site if anyone's
interested...



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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Jan  4 09:18:07 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:07 +1030
Subject: Yet Another Apout Version
In-Reply-To: <199901031151.WAA26388@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 10:51:45PM +1100
References: <199901031151.WAA26388@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19990104094807.X66110@freebie.lemis.com>

On Sunday,  3 January 1999 at 22:51:45 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm,
> 	The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing,
> and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop.
> I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in:
>
> 	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/
>
> Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was
> able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of
> the binaries in /bin.

How long did it take, on what kind of machine?

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Jan  4 10:18:11 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:18:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ...
Message-ID: <199901040018.QAA18722@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin at coffee.corliss.net>
> 
> Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify
> the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52
> drive like an array of six RL drives?

	Not likely at all.  Completely different controllers - the only
	similarity between an RL controller and an MSCP (RQDX3 for example)
	controller lies in their both being Qbus cards and disks are attached
	to them.   The RL is about as smart as a rock - it can't even do
	spiral reads/writes (even the RK05 could do that), so there's code
	present to break transfers up into multiple pieces if cylinder and side
	boundaries are crossed.  Also the RL is a "traditional" device in
	that the driver calculates sector/track/cylinder and stuffs those
	values into registers.  With MSCP you have to build command and response
	ring buffers, fill in a packet with rather badly documented values,
	and then poke the controller to go look for its new packet.  The
	geometry calculations are done in the controller not the driver.
	The only concept of geometry that MSCP drivers have is "how many
	sectors does the drive have" (and even then that value's only used to
	pretty print something when the drive is first accessed) - somewhat 
	like SCSI in that aspect.

	Then too the RD52 is 30MB (sect/trak = 18, tracks/cyl = 7, cyl = 480).
	The RD53 is ~70mb and the RD54 is ~159mb.

	It'd be easier to add an MSCP driver to V7 than it would be
	to try and do binary edits on the RL driver to support non-RL devices.
	Ick. 

> I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two
> drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar...  I

	They're about as different as can be.  I think you were lulled into
	thinking they're similar by the fact that most of the bootblock is
	"boiler plate" (the filesystem search code to look for /boot).  The
	part that deals with the device is small but quite dissimilar.

	The bootblock is the least/smallest part of the problem.  All the boot-
	block does is load /boot - and that's where you need a more fullfeatured
	(but still not as full as the kernel's) driver.  Then once there's
	a standalone driver for a device in /boot then, and only then, does
	the kernel become involved (at which time a full driver is needed).

> assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble
> or modify the kernel, tho.

	The A.U. license provides full up source - no need to disassemble 
	anything - that can be modified to whatever extent is desired.  That
	won't solve the problem of getting a MSCP driver into V7 unless one
	can do the development work using a simulator.

	Steven Schultz

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From alyosha at vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM  Tue Jan  5 05:47:03 1999
From: alyosha at vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM (Billy Stivers)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:47:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ancient SunOS source
Message-ID: <199901041947.LAA05888@vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM>

These efforts aren't dead. :) They just took vacation with me, for the
last week and a half or so.  I'll try to report some news sometime during
the following week or two, though with the mess of work that popped
up in my absence, I'm not sure whether I'd be that optimistic. :/

	--Billy
	
>From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian at xensei.com>
>To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin at coffee.corliss.net>
>Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source
>Original-Sender: mirian at xensei.com
>Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500
>
>"Erin W. Corliss" <erin at coffee.corliss.net> writes:
>
>> On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
>> 
>> > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
>> > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence.  I'm
>> > curious as to what progress has been made on that.  I'm
>> > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
>> > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
>> 
>> Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?
>
>Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure...  I'm just looking
>forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS.
>Call it nostalgia, or something like that.  :)
>
>-- 
>Mirian Crzig Lennox                                Systems Anarchist
>          "There's a New World Order coming every minute.
>                      Make mine extra cheese."

----------------------------------------------------------------------
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a
"Yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
                -- Mahatma Gandhi



From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan  5 14:42:15 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:42:15 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <199901050442.PAA10444@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

I've got a questions that's been niggling me, and perhaps someone might
be able to answer it.

The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:

/* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
/*
 * C Shell
 *
 * Bill Joy, UC Berkeley
 * October, 1978
 */

But my memory tells me that, back in the late 80s, people were saying
that the sources to csh were not freely available. And in the tcsh FAQ
(taken from tcsh version 6.00), I see:

	4.  Where can I get csh sources? 

	Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2
	source licence or better, you are stuck.

So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??

Many thanks in advance!

	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jan  5 15:26:35 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:26:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <199901050526.VAA19409@moe.2bsd.com>

Warren -

> The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:

> /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
> /*
>  * C Shell
>  *
>  * Bill Joy, UC Berkeley
>  * October, 1978
>  */
> 	Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2
> 	source licence or better, you are stuck.
> 
> So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??

	It is not that they "became" restricted.  They always "were" restricted
	because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
	sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh).  All UNIX sources were, up until 
	you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.

	For a long time you either had a multi-kilodollar source license
	or you didn't run UNIX at all.  The binary distributions came a bit
	later.  Initially when 'csh' was being written you had to have a
	source license.  Typically you'd pay (if memory serves) $25k or so
	(quite a chunk of cash in 1979) for a WesternElectric license, park
	the tapes in a rack and send a copy of the license and a check for a 
	few hundred dollars off to UCB to get the software you really intended 
	to run ;)

	You'll note that the copyright lacks the "may be redistributed ..."
	clauses that we typically associate with UCB software.  The famous
	UCB style of copyright ("copyrighted but redistributable") came
	later.

	Steven

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan  5 15:30:25 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050526.VAA19409@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999  9:26:35 pm"
Message-ID: <199901050530.QAA11231@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Warren -
> 
> > The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:
> > /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
> > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
> 
> 	It is not that they "became" restricted.  They always "were" restricted
> 	because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
> 	sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh).  All UNIX sources were, up until 
> 	you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
> 
> 	Steven

I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with
AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and
the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination.

What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?

Thanks!
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan  5 15:50:06 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:50:06 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050530.QAA11231@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jan 5, 1999  4:30:25 pm"
Message-ID: <199901050550.QAA11350@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Warren Toomey:
> In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> > > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
> > 
> > 	It is not that they "became" restricted.  They always "were" restricted
> > 	because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
> > 	sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh).  All UNIX sources were, up until 
> > 	you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
> > 
> > 	Steven

Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it
is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the
Bourne shell in 7th Edition.

Hmm, I'll have to go and update my UNIX family tree now.

	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jan  5 15:57:01 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:57:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <199901050557.VAA19580@moe.2bsd.com>

Warren -

> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with
> AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and

	Indeed they were.  ALL sources were considered "contaminated" or
	restricted - that's why for years and years the only 2.x (and 4.x) BSD
	sites were universities or other companies that had source licenses.

> the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination.
> 
> What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?

	Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves.

	A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
	contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
	but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
	(is?) contaminated.  Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software
	had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over.  I 
	grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the 
	"sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example.  But the mainline
	applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed).
	I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin>

	That's why the SCO "Ancient Unix" license is such a milestone event and
	is so important (perhaps more so than some folks realize).

	Up until this point you had to have a US$100K budget to gain access
	to the software we can legally obtain for $100 (no 'K') now.

	Steven

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan  5 16:01:49 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:49 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Contaminated srcs
In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999  9:57: 1 pm"
Message-ID: <199901050601.RAA11467@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> 	A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
> 	contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
> 	but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
> 	(is?) contaminated.  Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software
> 	had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over.  I 
> 	grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the 
> 	"sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example.  But the mainline
> 	applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed).
> 	I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin>
> 
> 	Steven

Just a thought: much of the stuff in 16-bit Minix was written by people
on Usenet and donated to Minix. The core stuff of course is owned by
Prentice-Hall, but there are some freely-available programs.

	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jan  5 16:09:48 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <199901050609.WAA19671@moe.2bsd.com>

Warren -

	Quite a busy night, eh?

> > > 	sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh).  All UNIX sources were, up until 
> > > 	you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.

	It might also be a good time to clarify that the sources are still
	'restricted'.  Legally we can share the sources only with other
	license holders.  However the cost of obtaining the license is vastly
	more affordable now than in a previous era.

> Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it
> is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the
> Bourne shell in 7th Edition.

	Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell?  Perhaps not
	completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away).

	Steven

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan  5 16:13:39 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:39 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050609.WAA19671@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 10: 9:48 pm"
Message-ID: <199901050613.RAA11557@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> 	Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell?  Perhaps not
> 	completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away).
> 	Steven

No, from what I heard Bourne nearly started from scratch. I did have
a copy of some old Usenet news from John Mashey about the v6 shell; I'll
try to dig it up.

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jan  5 16:12:41 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:41 +1030
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 09:57:01PM -0800
References: <199901050557.VAA19580@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <19990105164241.E78349@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday,  4 January 1999 at 21:57:01 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
>> What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
>
> 	Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves.
>
> 	A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
> 	contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
> 	but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
> 	(is?) contaminated.

There has been a lot of confusion on this point.  Well, maybe
``disagreement'' would be a better word.  Obviously Net-2 contained
almost only stuff written by contributors, though there was, indeed,
some code which had obviously grown out of Seventh Edition code.  I
think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
lawsuit.  I took a look at one (kern_clock.c?), and confirmed that
yes, it looked as if it was derived rather than written from scratch.
On the other hand, there was nothing which AT&T (or the opponent of
the week) could claim to be trade secrets.  And IMO none of this could
have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which
were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jan  5 16:45:35 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:45:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <199901050645.WAA19977@moe.2bsd.com>

Greg -

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> 
> There has been a lot of confusion on this point.  Well, maybe
> ``disagreement'' would be a better word.  Obviously Net-2 contained

	Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit.  Of course said confusion
	does lead to disagreement eventually ;)

> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the

	I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11.  It's a fairly
	small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
	settlement I understand).  Without a list of files the fear (at the
	time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
	of some work from the forbidden files.  Since you didn't know what
	files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
	couldn't use.

> the week) could claim to be trade secrets.  And IMO none of this could
> have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which
> were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors.

	I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))...  That's
	how you and I (nonlawyer types) think.  The sentiment at the time
	was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was
	a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2.

	The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives
	(FreeBSD for example) exist.  That ready availability may have been 
	a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original" 
	sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available").

	Steven

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jan  5 17:16:39 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:39 +1030
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 10:45:35PM -0800
References: <199901050645.WAA19977@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <19990105174639.G78349@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday,  4 January 1999 at 22:45:35 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Greg -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
>>
>> There has been a lot of confusion on this point.  Well, maybe
>> ``disagreement'' would be a better word.  Obviously Net-2 contained
>
> 	Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit.  Of course said confusion
> 	does lead to disagreement eventually ;)

We can agree (or is that defuse?) about that.

>> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
>
> 	I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11.  It's a fairly
> 	small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
> 	settlement I understand).  Without a list of files the fear (at the
> 	time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
> 	of some work from the forbidden files.  Since you didn't know what
> 	files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
> 	couldn't use.

Well, here's an extract from BSDI's announcement dated 8 Feb 1994:

> This broadcast message addresses many of the questions that have arrived
> in my mailbox in the last few days.
>
> Q:  After this lawsuit resolution, is BSDI still in business?
> A:  You bet.  And we're shipping 1.1 early next week.
>
> Q:  The press release was unclear, do I get to keep my current copy
>    of BSD/386?
> A:  The answer is yes!  BSDI is not recalling prior versions.
>    Any USA domestic customer whose support was valid through December,
>    1993 will be shipped the new V1.1 release.  I will be mailing a paper
>    letter to each USA domestic customer detailing their service contract
>    status and verifying the V1.1 shipping address.
>
> Q:  What's all this about `binary-only files'?  Will BSDI continue to
>    ship source code?
> A:  For Version 1.1 only, BSDI will ship the following kernel files
>    in binary format:
>
>	kern/init_main.c	kern/subr_rmap.c	ufs/ufs_bmap.c
>	kern/kern_clock.c	kern/sys_generic.c	ufs/ufs_disksubr.c
>	kern/kern_exit.c	kern/sys_process.c	ufs/ufs_inode.c
>	kern/kern_physio.c	kern/tty.c		ufs/ufs_vnops.c
>	kern/kern_sig.c		kern/tty_subr.c
>	kern/kern_synch.c	kern/vfs_syscalls.c

OK, so it was 16, not 13.  And yes, they didn't say that these were
the ones, but I did look at one and saw the similarities.

> Q:  I noticed your signature changed.  Did you get promoted?
> A:  Yes, we now have a full-time president.  Me!
>
>					Rob Kolstad
>					President, BSDI

Well, some things just keep changing.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Wed Jan  6 01:24:00 1999
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:24:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 99 10:45:35 pm"
Message-ID: <199901051524.KAA27132@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> > think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
> 
> 	I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11.  It's a fairly
> 	small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
> 	settlement I understand).  Without a list of files the fear (at the
> 	time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
> 	of some work from the forbidden files.  Since you didn't know what
> 	files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
> 	couldn't use.

INet Dunce Cap firmly attached, in case my greymatters are vaporware....

I though I remembered seeing in one of the varieties of the 386BSD-0.0,
386BSD-0.1, FreeBSD-1.1, FreeBSD-1.1.5.1 (don't ask where, because I
really don't remember exactly), a subtree with a README and the original
7 files (yes, I counted them and it was 7).  Now, that makes me want to
backtrack to find that and see what exactly was different.  Vague memory
suggests it may have been in the 1.1.5.1 suite, since that was about the
time of the great territorial Unix Wars of old......

> 	I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))...  That's
> 	how you and I (nonlawyer types) think.  The sentiment at the time
> 	was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was
> 	a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2.

That was where the shift from the 1 release level to the 2 release level
came in.  Sadly, I was not really paying much attention to it all going
by on the net back then, since I was tied up in AIX boxen.  But, I did
run across that interesting subtree and those 7 magic files, one time.
Now, where DID I see them......

> 	The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives
> 	(FreeBSD for example) exist.  That ready availability may have been 
> 	a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original" 
> 	sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available").
> 
> 	Steven

I am glad it all came to pass.  But, it is still fun to peruse the odd
bits here and there, and sometimes real history or insights pop up.

If all goes well, another minor bit of history may pop up shortly.
With the graces of Dennis Ritchie, I rekeyed in the V1 manuals in
roff source, in case anyone still has a model KSR37 sitting around
with a box full of paper, roff, and too much time to burn.  It is complete,
now, but needs some editorial fixings since the OCR came through rather
bad.  I made the suggestion that he allow us to put a copy in the UHS
archives.  It may appear on his web page when the editorial fixings
get done, and hopefully, minnie, too.

Bob


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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Wed Jan  6 01:41:47 1999
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:41:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
Message-ID: <199901051541.KAA27177@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme.  What can I
run with it?  It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....

Machine:  VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.

Tape Drive:  TK70

Hard Drive:  RA70

Boards:

SLOT     BOARD NUMBER   DESCRIPTION
----     ------------   ----------------------------------------------
1        KA650 -BA
2        MS650 -AA
3        MS650 -AA
4        DELQA -SA
5        VCB02
6        VCB02
7        VCB02
8        CXY08
9        TQK70
10       KDA50
11       KDA50
12       (empty)

What are the above boards, for reference?

What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?

How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?

I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
If not, I am at ground zero with it.

I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish
Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation.  I don't
have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard.
What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU?
Will a plain terminal work OK?

What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?

What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks

Bob Keys



From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan  6 06:07:11 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:07:11 +0100 (MET)
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
In-Reply-To: <199901051541.KAA27177@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990105205913.2044A-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:

> OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme.  What can I
> run with it?  It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....

Smile. It's a decent machine.

> Machine:  VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.
> 
> Tape Drive:  TK70
> 
> Hard Drive:  RA70
> 
> Boards:
> 
> SLOT     BOARD NUMBER   DESCRIPTION
> ----     ------------   ----------------------------------------------
> 1        KA650 -BA

CPU

> 2        MS650 -AA
> 3        MS650 -AA

Both are memory boards. Don't know for sure how much. 8 or 16 megs apiece,
I'd guess.

> 4        DELQA -SA

Ethernet.

> 5        VCB02
> 6        VCB02
> 7        VCB02

Sounds like a graphic subsystem.

> 8        CXY08

Plotter interface?

> 9        TQK70

Controller for the TK70 tape drive.

> 10       KDA50
> 11       KDA50

Controller for the RA70 disk. (The controller can have up to four disks
attached).

> What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?

CPU and memory minimum.
I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the
peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the
middle.

> How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?

Turn on the power.

> I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
> a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
> If not, I am at ground zero with it.

It's a pretty easy machine to play around with.

> I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish
> Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation.  I don't
> have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard.
> What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU?
> Will a plain terminal work OK?

Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.

> What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?

Protocols? That's software!
As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!

> What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?

I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)

> Any suggestions are appreciated.

Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
You can netboot it to get started.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Wed Jan  6 07:47:55 1999
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990105205913.2044A-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Jan 5, 99 09:07:11 pm"
Message-ID: <199901052147.QAA28061@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> 
> > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme.  What can I
> > run with it?  It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
> 
> Smile. It's a decent machine.

I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent!

> > Hard Drive:  RA70

What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our
play purposes.  Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might
want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too
choosy.  A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box.  A pair of
2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server.

> > What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?
> 
> CPU and memory minimum.
> I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the
> peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the
> middle.

OK.  What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open?
Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes?

> > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
> 
> Turn on the power.

I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything
strange in the callup from a dumb terminal.  Someone mentioned setting
a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU?

> > I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
> > a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
> > If not, I am at ground zero with it.
> 
> It's a pretty easy machine to play around with.

I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there
were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them.
He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes.  If they turn out to be
unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good
boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps.  If they are, indeed Ultrix,
would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such?
I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds
of things, as long as they don't get too strange.  I don't think I
would like a VMS.

> Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
> The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
> RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
> know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.

Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end,
an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter.  Would that be usable
for a console or is that some kind of printer cable?  He thought it was
plain serial, but was not sure.

> > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
> 
> Protocols? That's software!
> As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
> the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!

Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque.
That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew 
which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring
everything, instead.  Software or non-shake protocol always worked,
if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end.  One of my friends said that
DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking
for sure.

> > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
> 
> I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)

I must rub the right rabbit's food today.  Another friend gave me a DEC dongle
box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?).  That is a good
find, or the right find, perhaps?
 
> > Any suggestions are appreciated.
> 
> Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
> You can netboot it to get started.

My problem is getting it up to a network.  My home net is mostly down
or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time.
Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes.  Proper
netbooting on them is a bit wierd.

I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere.
That may be the easiest thing to do, practically.

Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common
denominator boot when all else may fail.  That way, everything is covered.

What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or
backplane?  I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it,
if possible.  Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting
the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose?

> 	Johnny

Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}....
Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight.  Now to feed the
Reddy Kilowatt meter man.  I hear these VAXen things make him very
happy.

Bob Keys


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan  6 08:33:57 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST)
Subject: V8's roots?
Message-ID: <199901052233.JAA12801@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Just got this email from a friend...

----- Forwarded message from David Blackman -----

Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram]
You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but
i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD
version, probably 4.1.

----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman -----

Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis.

Ta,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan  6 10:37:10 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:37:10 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Apout: new version + freeze
Message-ID: <199901060037.LAA15385@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	I've put yet a new version of the Apout PDP-11 a.out simulator in

		ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout

and now I'm going to stop working on it for a while. This means you won't
get these annoying emails any more :-)

Current version is apout2.2alpha6. The latest changes are:

	+ Runs 2.11BSD binaries, including overlay binaries
	+ Runs shell scripts
	+ Can exec native binaries as well as PDP-11 a.out binaries
	+ Has floating point operations
	+ Still emulates V5/V6/V7 UNIX binaries
	+ On a Pentium Pro 350MHz, compiles the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel
	  in 4 minutes 16 seconds.
	+ Now uses u_int* throughout
	+ Finally, a man page exists

Enjoy!
	Warren

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan  6 12:54:31 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:54:31 +0100 (MET)
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
In-Reply-To: <199901052147.QAA28061@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990106033734.12114A-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:

> I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent!

I'd say so.

> What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our
> play purposes.  Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might
> want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too
> choosy.  A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box.  A pair of
> 2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server.

Fit as in physically fit. The RA7x series will fit. However, only the RA70
as far as I know have a switch pack for setting unit numbers. Any other
type of drive will default to unit zero unless you have a proper front
panel.

All RA-drives will work however. Me I have one RA72 in the box, two RA90
and one RA92 lying on the floor. :-)

Also remember that VAX binaries are *smaller* than what you might be used
to see. This is a CISC.

> OK.  What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open?

If you have blank covers, put them there. It improves the air flow in the
box. But you should be able to run it as is.

> Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes?

Nope. Just keep al the cards next to each other.

> > > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
> > 
> > Turn on the power.
> 
> I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything
> strange in the callup from a dumb terminal.  Someone mentioned setting
> a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU?

Ok.
To boot the machine, try "B <device>", where disks are DUAx, tape is MUA0
and ethernet XNA0 (I think...)

If you open up the front you'll notice that the CPU fron panel cover has,
in addition to the connector for the console, a small display, a three
position dial switch and a two-position switch. If you look at the back of
the panel, you have thumbweel.
The thumbweel sets the baudrate for the console. There should be a sticker
beside it with the key.
The three-position switch selects power-up action. Language menu, boot or
eternal selftest. The two-position switch selects whether booting to
console prompt, or booting all the way with OS.

There are a number of commands you can give at the ">>>" prompt. Useful
is (among others) "SHOW ETHERNET" which tells your ethernet address.

> I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there
> were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them.

Try booting them.

> He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes.  If they turn out to be
> unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good
> boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps.  If they are, indeed Ultrix,
> would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such?

Ultrix is definitely not something you want to run. It's okay to have
around, but it's not that much fun. It's more or less a mix between 4.2
and 4.3.

> I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds
> of things, as long as they don't get too strange.  I don't think I
> would like a VMS.

VMS is nice. :-)

> > Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
> > The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
> > RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
> > know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.
> 
> Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end,
> an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter.  Would that be usable
> for a console or is that some kind of printer cable?  He thought it was
> plain serial, but was not sure.

The cable should be usable. If you have a VT220 or newer, the cable can be
used without any adapter at all.

> > > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
> > 
> > Protocols? That's software!
> > As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
> > the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!
> 
> Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque.

Ah. Intelligent opinion. Since the CXY08 is a serial interface, that's
your answer. (If the CXY08 has a driver for the OS of your choise.)

> That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew 
> which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring
> everything, instead.  Software or non-shake protocol always worked,
> if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end.  One of my friends said that
> DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking
> for sure.

DEC has very seldom done strange things. It's rather the other way
around...

Most likely your friend might have heard of DECs refusal to use modem
signals for handshake, since neither a computer, nor a printer is a modem.
(And by the book they are right, it's just that most other people like to
violate this fact. :-)
DEC always uses XON/XOFF.

> > > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
> > 
> > I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> > from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> > set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)
> 
> I must rub the right rabbit's food today.  Another friend gave me a DEC dongle
> box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?).  That is a good
> find, or the right find, perhaps?

Probably. I don't know offhand what the DEC transciever is called, but I
doubt there are any others with the right kind of looking connectors.

> > > Any suggestions are appreciated.
> > 
> > Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
> > You can netboot it to get started.
> 
> My problem is getting it up to a network.  My home net is mostly down
> or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time.
> Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes.  Proper
> netbooting on them is a bit wierd.

Well, it isn't *them* you are about to netboot, but the VAX. :-)

> I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere.
> That may be the easiest thing to do, practically.

Maybe.

> Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common
> denominator boot when all else may fail.  That way, everything is covered.

Well, if you have VMS or Ultrix, you can write out tapes...

> What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or
> backplane?  I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it,
> if possible.  Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting
> the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose?

Getting the dust out is always a Good Thing (tm).

If you are a hardware junkie, you'll start by disassembling the power
supply into small bits and check it out througly before reassembling it
and allowing it to feed the system. Me, I'd just power the thing on. :-)

> Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}....
> Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight.  Now to feed the
> Reddy Kilowatt meter man.  I hear these VAXen things make him very
> happy.

Nah. A 3500 is a small thing. Try an 8650 instead. :-)

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From mckusick at mckusick.com  Wed Jan  6 15:46:58 1999
From: mckusick at mckusick.com (Kirk McKusick)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:46:58 -0800
Subject: V8's roots? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100."
             <199901052233.JAA12801@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> 
Message-ID: <199901060547.VAA26800@flamingo.McKusick.COM>

	From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
	Subject: V8's roots?
	To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
	Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST)
	Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
	Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au

	Just got this email from a friend...

	----- Forwarded message from David Blackman -----

	Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram]
	You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but
	i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD
	version, probably 4.1.

	----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman -----

	Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis.

	Ta,
		Warren

There was a big infusion of 4.1BSD into the research group system
between V7 and V8. Dennis could give you more details.

	~Kirk

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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Thu Jan  7 04:07:15 1999
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:07:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
Message-ID: <199901061807.KAA24704@mpl.ucsd.edu>

> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:07:11 +0100 (MET)
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>

> On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> 
> > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme.  What can I
> > run with it?  It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
> 
> I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)

For short runs of AUI cable (a couple of feet) you can cheat by using
crimp-on IDC connectors and flat ribbon cable.  Frequently that is more
available than real AUI cables.

    carl

        carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Thu Jan  7 05:41:03 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:41:03 -0500
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
Message-ID: <199901061941.OAA03424@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:

> Machine:  VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.

Will run my latest OS release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, like a charm.

> Tape Drive:  TK70

Great! 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 bootstraps from TK70s beaufifully.

> Hard Drive:  RA70

Also great! You are incredibly lucky here that 4.3BSD-* already knows about
RA70 and thus you can install 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 on this disk directly even
when it's unlabeled. If you had third-party MSCP disks, you would have to
install Ultrix first to label the disk. This is due to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0's
inability to install on unknown unlabeled disks. This limitation will be lifted
in the next Quasijarus release, which I'm already working on.

> 1        KA650 -BA

A very nice CPU, rated at 2.8 VUPs. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 fully supports it
(better than CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases). KA650 support is present in the
GENERIC kernel, so it will Just Boot (tm).

The "-BA" part means that it has bit 1 set in the second longword of the EPROM,
causing DEC proprietary OSes to treat it as a "single-user" machine. Research
OSes like 4.3BSD-* ignore this bit. But if you do want to convert your machine
to "multiuser" status, clear bit 1, set bit 0, and recalculate the checksum
(you'll need an EPROM blaster). This will turn your CPU into a KA650-AA.

You also have the option of upgrading this CPU to a KA655 (3.8 VUPs) or KA660
(5 VUPs). KA655 is also fully supported by 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, and KA660
support is coming soon (100% guarrantee that I'll get it before NetBSD does).

> 2        MS650 -AA
> 3        MS650 -AA

-AA is a 8 MB board, so you have a total of 16 MB of RAM.

Note, though, that -AAs are old boards, and they work only with KA650 and
KA640. If you decide to upgrade to KA655 or KA660, you'll need either DEC
MS650-Bx or third-party MS650-compatible memory. These work with all KA650
series CPUs.

> 4        DELQA -SA

Ethernet. Fully supported by Berkeley UNIX since 4.3BSD.

> 5        VCB02
> 6        VCB02
> 7        VCB02

QDSS video. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 should support this (untested), but since you
don't have a VAXstation monitor or keyboard anyway, pull these three boards out
and move everything else to the right (you can't leave empty Q-bus slots in the
middle).

> 8        CXY08

8-line asynchronous multiplexer (8-port serial interface). Not sure if 4.3BSD-*
has a driver for it (I haven't touched this area and left it as it was in
CSRG's Tahoe release). It has some drivers for DEC asynchronous multiplexers,
but DEC made a lot of different ones, and I don't know where does CXY08 stand
with respect to everything else DEC has produced.

Ultrix supports it for sure, though.

> 9        TQK70

Controller for TK70.

> 10       KDA50
> 11       KDA50

Controller for RA70 (or any other SDI disks you may want to connect).

> Any suggestions are appreciated.

Hmm, it looks like you have already been brainwashed by one NutBSDist. Please
don't listen to him. Running NetBSD is conduct unbecoming a PUPS/TUHS member.
NetBSD is the worst OS a VAX can run. Its code is a total mess, and its
"developers" are incompetent morons (I know, I've been on their list for 6
months or so). They have no clue as to how to write VAX OSes, and their list of
supported hardware is as skinny as their brains. NetBSD is extremely flaky, and
it's extremely bloated.

My authoritative advice to you is to run 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, my latest release
made two weeks ago (I'm the maintainer of 4.3BSD-*). It comes with 100%
complete source code, and, picture this, the entire system with all binaries
_and full sources_ fits in 75 MB! It's absolutely True and Pure UNIX, nothing
can be better.

There is also Ultrix. No matter how much those losers insult it, it's one of
the best OSes in the Universe, second only to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. Despite what
some incompetent morons may say, it is not a "4.2/4.3 mix", it's 100% 4.3.
True, it has been interDIGITated by DEC, which makes it a little impure and
bloated (and binary-only), but otherwise it's OK. It is bigger than a
binary-only 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 installation, but certainly much smaller than
NutBSD. As for the DEC additions, just ignore them! Just because Ultrix
optionally supports Sun YP, Hesiod, and other crap doesn't mean that you have
to use it! In fact, it's already disabled by default! Just don't enable it,
that's all! When /etc/svc.conf selects "local,bind" for hosts and "local" for
everything else, Ultrix becomes indistinguishable from 4.3BSD! I can bet that
if I show you two VAXen, one running 4.3BSD and the other running Ultrix, you
won't be able to tell easily which is which.

Also some Ultrix-specific features are really nice. Take NFS, for example. I
will certainly add NFS to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus at some point. Also don't forget
that Ultrix runs on almost every VAX ever made. I often run Ultrix instead of
4.3BSD-* when the latter doesn't run on the hardware in question. In fact, this
is what Ultrix is best for: a fallback OS to replace 4.3BSD-* when it doesn't
support the hardware. Of course 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is the best OS in the
Universe, and you should always run it whenever possible, but when you can't
Ultrix is a very good fallback because it's so close.

But since you have a KA650, you don't have to worry about this, as
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 will run on it like a charm.

Best of luck with it. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 is in the PUPS archive in the
Distributions/4bsd/43quasi0.vax directory.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Thu Jan  7 05:41:03 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:41:03 -0500
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
Message-ID: <199901061941.OAA03424@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:

> Machine:  VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.

Will run my latest OS release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, like a charm.

> Tape Drive:  TK70

Great! 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 bootstraps from TK70s beaufifully.

> Hard Drive:  RA70

Also great! You are incredibly lucky here that 4.3BSD-* already knows about
RA70 and thus you can install 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 on this disk directly even
when it's unlabeled. If you had third-party MSCP disks, you would have to
install Ultrix first to label the disk. This is due to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0's
inability to install on unknown unlabeled disks. This limitation will be lifted
in the next Quasijarus release, which I'm already working on.

> 1        KA650 -BA

A very nice CPU, rated at 2.8 VUPs. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 fully supports it
(better than CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases). KA650 support is present in the
GENERIC kernel, so it will Just Boot (tm).

The "-BA" part means that it has bit 1 set in the second longword of the EPROM,
causing DEC proprietary OSes to treat it as a "single-user" machine. Research
OSes like 4.3BSD-* ignore this bit. But if you do want to convert your machine
to "multiuser" status, clear bit 1, set bit 0, and recalculate the checksum
(you'll need an EPROM blaster). This will turn your CPU into a KA650-AA.

You also have the option of upgrading this CPU to a KA655 (3.8 VUPs) or KA660
(5 VUPs). KA655 is also fully supported by 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, and KA660
support is coming soon (100% guarrantee that I'll get it before NetBSD does).

> 2        MS650 -AA
> 3        MS650 -AA

-AA is a 8 MB board, so you have a total of 16 MB of RAM.

Note, though, that -AAs are old boards, and they work only with KA650 and
KA640. If you decide to upgrade to KA655 or KA660, you'll need either DEC
MS650-Bx or third-party MS650-compatible memory. These work with all KA650
series CPUs.

> 4        DELQA -SA

Ethernet. Fully supported by Berkeley UNIX since 4.3BSD.

> 5        VCB02
> 6        VCB02
> 7        VCB02

QDSS video. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 should support this (untested), but since you
don't have a VAXstation monitor or keyboard anyway, pull these three boards out
and move everything else to the right (you can't leave empty Q-bus slots in the
middle).

> 8        CXY08

8-line asynchronous multiplexer (8-port serial interface). Not sure if 4.3BSD-*
has a driver for it (I haven't touched this area and left it as it was in
CSRG's Tahoe release). It has some drivers for DEC asynchronous multiplexers,
but DEC made a lot of different ones, and I don't know where does CXY08 stand
with respect to everything else DEC has produced.

Ultrix supports it for sure, though.

> 9        TQK70

Controller for TK70.

> 10       KDA50
> 11       KDA50

Controller for RA70 (or any other SDI disks you may want to connect).

> Any suggestions are appreciated.

Hmm, it looks like you have already been brainwashed by one NutBSDist. Please
don't listen to him. Running NetBSD is conduct unbecoming a PUPS/TUHS member.
NetBSD is the worst OS a VAX can run. Its code is a total mess, and its
"developers" are incompetent morons (I know, I've been on their list for 6
months or so). They have no clue as to how to write VAX OSes, and their list of
supported hardware is as skinny as their brains. NetBSD is extremely flaky, and
it's extremely bloated.

My authoritative advice to you is to run 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, my latest release
made two weeks ago (I'm the maintainer of 4.3BSD-*). It comes with 100%
complete source code, and, picture this, the entire system with all binaries
_and full sources_ fits in 75 MB! It's absolutely True and Pure UNIX, nothing
can be better.

There is also Ultrix. No matter how much those losers insult it, it's one of
the best OSes in the Universe, second only to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. Despite what
some incompetent morons may say, it is not a "4.2/4.3 mix", it's 100% 4.3.
True, it has been interDIGITated by DEC, which makes it a little impure and
bloated (and binary-only), but otherwise it's OK. It is bigger than a
binary-only 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 installation, but certainly much smaller than
NutBSD. As for the DEC additions, just ignore them! Just because Ultrix
optionally supports Sun YP, Hesiod, and other crap doesn't mean that you have
to use it! In fact, it's already disabled by default! Just don't enable it,
that's all! When /etc/svc.conf selects "local,bind" for hosts and "local" for
everything else, Ultrix becomes indistinguishable from 4.3BSD! I can bet that
if I show you two VAXen, one running 4.3BSD and the other running Ultrix, you
won't be able to tell easily which is which.

Also some Ultrix-specific features are really nice. Take NFS, for example. I
will certainly add NFS to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus at some point. Also don't forget
that Ultrix runs on almost every VAX ever made. I often run Ultrix instead of
4.3BSD-* when the latter doesn't run on the hardware in question. In fact, this
is what Ultrix is best for: a fallback OS to replace 4.3BSD-* when it doesn't
support the hardware. Of course 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is the best OS in the
Universe, and you should always run it whenever possible, but when you can't
Ultrix is a very good fallback because it's so close.

But since you have a KA650, you don't have to worry about this, as
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 will run on it like a charm.

Best of luck with it. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 is in the PUPS archive in the
Distributions/4bsd/43quasi0.vax directory.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Thu Jan  7 07:06:48 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:06:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Twist of Fate...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990106125635.20195A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>


So get this -- Matt Kjaer, a friend of a friend of mine and the person who
originally got me interested in PDP's, works at the University of Oregon
computing center.  He claims that if he can dig it up, the University of
Oregon has an original Unix license for PDP-11's.  I'm not sure what
version of Unix it is or if it's even from SCO, but assuming it is, where
do we fax/mail/deliver/etc a copy of it to get access to the legendary
protected FTP directory with the source codes?


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan  7 08:20:25 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:20:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Twist of Fate...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990106125635.20195A-100000@coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at "Jan 6, 1999  1: 6:48 pm"
Message-ID: <199901062220.JAA19617@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Erin W. Corliss:
> 
> So get this -- Matt Kjaer, a friend of a friend of mine and the person who
> originally got me interested in PDP's, works at the University of Oregon
> computing center.  He claims that if he can dig it up, the University of
> Oregon has an original Unix license for PDP-11's.  I'm not sure what
> version of Unix it is or if it's even from SCO, but assuming it is, where
> do we fax/mail/deliver/etc a copy of it to get access to the legendary
> protected FTP directory with the source codes?

Fax a copy to me (the pages giving the license owner, the license number,
the list of operating systems covered, the list of CPUs covered, and the
signatures), and then get Matt to email me!

As per usual, I need to send back access details securely. A fax number
or a means of obtaining a PGP key will allow me to do this.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan  7 08:26:54 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:26:54 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Twist of Fate...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990106142501.20945A-100000@coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at "Jan 6, 1999  2:26:32 pm"
Message-ID: <199901062226.JAA19685@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Erin W. Corliss:
> On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
> 
> > Fax a copy to me (the pages giving the license owner, the license number,
> > the list of operating systems covered, the list of CPUs covered, and the
> > signatures), and then get Matt to email me!
> 
> What's your fax number?

Damn, I knew I'd forget to put that in!

Warren:		+61 2 6268 8581

Ciao,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan  7 09:00:40 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:00:40 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Bob Manners: new email addr?
Message-ID: <199901062300.KAA19815@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Sorry to bother the list. Mail to Bob Manners rjm at swift.eng.ox.ac.uk is
bouncing, and I know he'd like to stay on the PUPS list. Has anybody got
a new address for him?

Thanks,
	Warren

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From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca  Thu Jan  7 09:04:00 1999
From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 18:04:00 -0500
Subject: V8's roots?
Message-ID: <199901062304.KAA15617@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

The operating system kernel on the V8 distribution tape (which was sent
to less than a dozen places, under special license) was indeed descended
from one of the 4.1 BSD releases; I have a vague memory that it was 4.1a,
but I wasn't there at the time, and don't know just what was in each of
the intermediate 4.1s.  As I understand the history (again, I wasn't there
when this part happened), when the Computing Science Research Center
decided to move its main computing world to VAX in the early 1980s,
they wanted a reasonably stable, reasonably fast system with paging,
and 4.1x (for whatever value of x it was) seemed the best available choice.
The only real competitor was the paging descendant of 32/V done by John
Reiser (who did the original 32/V port to the VAX, I believe), but that
system seemed to have lost the evolutionary battle and was judged a bad
bet.

It may help to identify the kernel in question to know that it probably
didn't have sockets yet, and certainly didn't have FFS.

The 4.1x kernel was just used as a base, however.  By the time I arrived
at the Center in late 1984, a good bit had been added and replaced: the
V7-heritage terminal IO subsystem had been kicked out in favour of Dennis
Ritchie's stream I/O system; Peter Weinberger's simple disk file system
speedups (4KB blocks and a bitmapped free list, nothing more) and network
file system code and the corresponding file system switch had been added;
Tom Killian's process file system had appeared.

The commands in /bin and /usr/bin and whatnot had less obvious BSD influence,
and I suspect they were mostly carried over from the system used internally
on the PDP11s when the VAXes first arrived.

Norman Wilson
(six years in New Jersey drove me out of the country)

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Thu Jan  7 09:42:41 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:42:41 -0500
Subject: My mail screw-up
Message-ID: <199901062342.SAA03510@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Hello everyone,

Sorry for being away from the list lately, the machine I was doing my E-mail on
(harrier.Uznet.NET) has been down for several days, and I have to assume that
it's down forever. I have moved my mail back to my old address
<mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu>.

If any of you have sent any mail to msokolov at harrier.Uznet.NET in the past
several days, please resend it to mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu, since
harrier.Uznet.NET is probably down forever and everything in my mailbox is
lost. (I have recovered the missed pups mail via the archive.)

Sorry for this screw-up, but it's not my fault, I'm not that machine's admin.
(The admin is Stacy Minkin, whom I can't contact because his address is also
obviously on that machine.)

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan  7 13:39:39 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:39:39 +1100 (EST)
Subject: V8's roots? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199901070339.OAA27637@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

----- Forwarded message from dmr -----

I also got mail from Norman Wilson today about the discussion.

This is mainly to confirm and fill out details of Wilson's account.

The Eighth Edition system started with (I believe) BSD 4.1c and
the work was done on VAX 11/750s -- our group did not get
a 780 until a while later.

Most of the operating system superstructure of BSD was retained
(in particular no one (even the indefatigable Norman)
wanted to get much into the paging code.  Norman is also
right that the competitor was John Reiser's (and Tom London's)
32V descendant from another group at the Labs.  In structure
this system had a lot to offer (in particular the buffer cache and the page
pool were unified, but it was clear that their work was not being
supported by their own management.  It was used for a while on
our first 750 and also our first 11/780 ("alice", a name that lives
in netnews fame preceding  the reach of Dejanews).

The big change leading to V8 was the scooping-out and replacement of
the character-device and networking part by the streams mechanism.  Later,
Peter Weinberger added the file-system switch that enabled
remote file systems and prescient things ideas like /proc).  Weinberger,
as Norman said, also did a simple-minded FFS.

The TCP/IP stack wasn't very important to us then and it has a mixed and
murky history.  Much of it came from early CSRG work, but it was converted
to a streams approach by Robert Morris and subsequently fiddled over a lot.

Likewise, as Norman said, the applications (/bin and whatnot) were somewhat
of a mixture.  Many were the locally-done versions, some were taken
from BSD in some incarnation, some from System V.

	Dennis

----- End of forwarded message from dmr -----


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jan  8 15:13:56 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:13:56 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Earliest UNIX source!
Message-ID: <199901080513.QAA03259@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	Dennis has just passed to me the source to a UNIX kernel around
the 3rd Edition (i.e around 1973). He says this is the oldest
machine-readable UNIX source he has. I've just placed it in the PUPS
archive at:

	Distributions/research/Dennis_v3

Cheers,
	Warren


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Mon Jan 11 08:16:49 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:16:49 +1100 (EST)
Subject: EDU MAGAZINE
In-Reply-To: <008c01be3cc2$7fe09820$c8c5acce@oemcomputer> from Lawrence Reinish at "Jan 10, 1999 12:56: 5 pm"
Message-ID: <199901102216.JAA10623@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Lawrence Reinish:
> I am looking for several issues of 'EDU MAGAZINE' from mid-1975 to 1976.
> It was published by Digital Equipment Corporation. Any assistance would be
> greatly appreciated.
> 
> Lawrence Reinish

Lawrence, I don't have any copies. I'll forward this on to some people
who might be able to help you.

Cheers,
	Warren



From belfry at nsw.bigpond.net.au  Tue Jan 12 16:34:35 1999
From: belfry at nsw.bigpond.net.au (BeLFrY)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:34:35 +1100
Subject: Confirming machine hardware.
Message-ID: <369AECFA.87A55C4@nsw.bigpond.net.au>

G'day all...

I have a DEC-PRO/350.

I believe it is a PDP8.

Is there any way of confirming this?

Thanks.

Michael.


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From emu at ecubics.com  Wed Jan 13 00:26:39 1999
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:26:39 -0700
Subject: Confirming machine hardware.
Message-ID: <19990112142726.AAA22519@p2350>

Hi Michael,

----------
> From: BeLFrY <belfry at nsw.bigpond.net.au>
> To: "\"PUPs\" PDP11 Unix Preservation group" <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Confirming machine hardware.
> Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 11:34 PM
 
> I have a DEC-PRO/350.
which is nice ;-))
 
> I believe it is a PDP8.
> Is there any way of confirming this?

Sorry, there is no way to confirm this ;-)) (sorry, couldn't resist)
the nearest "brother" of the pro/350 would be the pdp11/23, pdp11//23+ or
pdp11/24, because the use the same CPU. (DCF11)

hope it helps,
emanuel

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan 13 05:43:04 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:43:04 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Confirming machine hardware.
In-Reply-To: <369AECFA.87A55C4@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990112204229.9487A-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, BeLFrY wrote:

> G'day all...

Hi there.

> I have a DEC-PRO/350.
> 
> I believe it is a PDP8.
> 
> Is there any way of confirming this?

No.

However I can confirm that it is a pdp-11.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 13 09:18:35 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:18:35 -0500
Subject: 11/730 question
Message-ID: <199901122318.SAA04873@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I wonder if any of you has some input on this issue. As I'm preparing for
making my planned disk labeling improvements (making it possible to install the
system on a fresh unlabeled disk in a more or less straightforward way), I
first want to clean up some mess in the standalone system. One thing that
annoys me in there is that for every standalone program that's supposed to go
on the console media there are two versions built, a normal one and a "730"
one. The comments say that 11/730 has a microcode botch that prevents it from
loading programs larger than 12.5 KB, so supposedly all "730" standalone
programs must be smaller than that. However, right now all standalone programs
are around 30 KB, and the difference between the normal and "730" versions is
only about 3 KB, even though the "730" versions do have the MASSBUS and BI code
compiled out. Wondering if there is a way to make them smaller, I looked at
older versions, and guess what, even in 4.2 the "730" versions are a little bit
over the alleged 12.5 KB limit! That's right, 4.2BSD is the first release with
11/730 support, and its standalone programs are already over the alleged 11/730
microcode limit!

This raises quite a few questions. First of all, does the 11/730 microcode
really have this limitation, or is it just a hoax? If this limit does exist,
when exactly does it apply? The BSD distribution TU58 cassette always used the
full versions of the programs, not the "730" ones (the distribution cassette is
also used for 750s), and yet apparently 730s could be bootstrapped from it.
Maybe this limitation applies only to automatic bootstrap and not to manual
loading? And if this is indeed a microcode botch, are there any patches
available for it?

I would appreciate it if someone here can provide some answers to these
questions. I would really like to get rid of those "730" standalone programs,
but I can't do it if this would break 11/730 support. (It's my responsibility
as the 4.3BSD-* maintainer to only add features, but never break anything that
works in plain 4.3 or 4.2.)

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu

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From mckusick at mckusick.com  Wed Jan 13 06:18:13 1999
From: mckusick at mckusick.com (Kirk McKusick)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:18:13 -0800
Subject: 11/730 question 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:18:35 EST."
             <199901122318.SAA04873@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> 
Message-ID: <199901122018.MAA10534@flamingo.McKusick.COM>

I applaud your desire not to break old 4.2/4.3 machines.
I would be very resistant to losing support for a popular
machine like the 11/750. However, I think that losing support
for the 11/730 would be acceptable. It was a very feeble
processor (0.3 of a 780) and very few of them were ever sold.
We had only one at Berkeley (for porting purposes), and it was
so slow that we were not even able to pawn it off on the
undergrad CS organization when we were done with it.

	Kirk

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 13 14:29:12 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:29:12 -0500
Subject: 11/730 question
Message-ID: <199901130429.XAA04949@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Kirk McKusick <mckusick at McKusick.COM> wrote:

> I applaud your desire not to break old 4.2/4.3 machines.
> I would be very resistant to losing support for a popular
> machine like the 11/750. However, I think that losing support
> for the 11/730 would be acceptable.

You are not the first person I hear this from, and I wouldn't completely
disagree. However, it always pains me very much when a system really ought to
run on a machine and has all the necessary ingredients, but fails because of
some tiny nit. This is exactly the case here. The CPU is supported, the console
storage device is supported, all bootstrap scripts are already written, even
the IDC is supported, but the standalone programs refuse to load because of a
ucode botch!

Now, I did look more carefully, and the boot.730 program does fit into 12.5 KB
after all in 4.2 and 4.3 (copy.730 fits in 4.2 but not in 4.3, and format.730
doesn't fit even in 4.2). So I guess it would be possible after all to massage
up the Makefile and the ifdefing in the sources to make the 4.3-Quasijarus
standalone system build a small boot.730.

However, the objections to this approach are:

1. Instead of tidying up the standalone system, this would make it an even
   worse mess.

2. In future Quasijarus releases I plan to retire the current standalone
   drivers for U/Q and BI MSCP and make the standalone system call DEC's own
   VMB for I/O from/to all MSCP devices, making it possible to support MSCP on
   more than just U/Q and BI. However, this means that all big VAX users with
   MSCP disks will now need a copy of DEC's VMB.EXE in addition to UNIX's
   native boot code. It will also have to be a recent enough version, and I'm
   sure as hell that the version that came with 11/730 is too old. A newer
   version of VMB can be pulled out of almost any VMS or Ultrix distribution,
   but the one I have seen was 40 KB long. Thus even if I manage to make a
   boot.730 that fits within 12.5 KB, you would still need the 40 KB VMB.EXE if
   your disk is RAxx (the most common type), and this obviously makes boot.730
   squeezing an exercise in futility.

Resolution: I will pitch the *.730 programs and add a note to the documentation
that installation on a 730 requires a ucode upgrade that fixes this botch. If
someone asks me where to obtain one (or how to write one if it doesn't exist),
I'll redirect them to this list, as I have no idea. :-)

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Thu Jan 14 11:13:23 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:13:23 -0500
Subject: Quasijarus Project WWW page update
Message-ID: <199901140113.UAA05182@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have finally updated the Quasijarus Project WWW page so that now it's much
more useful. You can find it at:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Fri Jan 15 08:50:01 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:50:01 -0500
Subject: Quasijarus Project Status Report
Message-ID: <199901142250.RAA00361@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have just finished SCCS-reconstructing /usr/src/sys. Amazingly (and to CSRG's
credit) the history has been preserved very well, and I have SCCS-recostructed
almost every file in the kernel. There are only a few lost SCCS files. For the
list see:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/sccs.html

If you know anything about these files, please contact me ASAP!

Also when I SCCS-reconstructed the /usr/src/sys/tahoe* subdirs, I had to take a
step back. In the currently shipping release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, these subdirs
are identical to the ones on the 4.3BSD-Tahoe+HCX-9 tape. However, in the
current master source tree they have been stepped back to the original
4.3BSD-Tahoe tape. For the explanation of this decision, see:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/arch.html

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jan 15 13:51:04 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:51:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Success in Compiling Nsys Kernel
Message-ID: <199901150351.OAA21707@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	After several days of frustration and enlightenment, I have been
able to compile and boot the `nsys' kernel source code on top of a 5th
Edition RK05 root filesystem.

The `nsys' kernel code corresponds to a time around the 3rd Edition of UNIX,
i.e. Jan 1973. Dennis Ritchie donated this to the PUPS Archive a few days ago.

I have placed the modifications to `nsys', plus some documentation, in the
PUPS Archive in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3.

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jan 15 15:20:12 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:20:12 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Success in Compiling Nsys Kernel
In-Reply-To: <01be4045$e3b28080$f2681081@collinse-home.tyson.com> from Efton Collins at "Jan 14, 1999 11: 8:35 pm"
Message-ID: <199901150520.QAA22113@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Efton Collins:
> I wonder how long it has been since that version of the kernel ran? Could be
> 25 years. Surely that will now be the earliest bootable kernel bar none. It
> must give Ken and Dennis a smile.
> 
> It is nice to see such interesting things continue to find their way into
> the archive. With the help of so many of the pioneers PUPS is fulfilling its
> charter very well indeed.
> 
> E-

Hi Efton. I had been keeping Dennis informed of my progress, and a few
days ago he passed on some email from Bob Keys:

    [Dennis wrote:]
    Keys said (when I mentioned your tries)

     > Ohhh, neato!  Let us keep fingers crossed, knock on wood 3 times,
     > cow-tow as appropriate, rub the rabbit's foot, throw salt before
     > the sumo ring, .... and anything else?.....(:+}}....

Dennis then went on to suggest some debugging ideas, when I was stuck:

    Astonishing.  When booting it might be best to start
    with an init that just does
      open(something);
      open(something);
      write(1, "Hello\n", 6);

    It might even be appropriate to try first with just  abort();
    to see if /etc/init can be read,

He must be out today, because I haven't got a reply back from my email
indicating success.

The `nsys' files were dated Jan 22, 1973. I definitely wanted to get the
kernel working by Jan 22, 1999 so that it was only 25 years ago, not 26!

I've also made some notes about the differences between `nsys' and V5,
attached below. Thanks for your encouraging email.

Cheers,
	Warren

	Differences in available syscalls between `nsys' and V5.
	========================================================

Syscalls in `nsys' but not in V5:
---------------------------------

        1, &quit,                       /* 26 = quit */
        1, &intr,                       /* 27 = intr */
        1, &cemt,                       /* 29 = cemt */
        1, &ilgins,                     /* 33 = ilgins */
        1, &fpe,                        /* 40 = fpe */

                These deliver signals QUIT, INTR, EMT, INS or FPE
                to the pid in arg0. Any user can send these signals.

        0, &prproc                      /* 63 = special */

        For each of the 50 entries in the proc array, if there is
        a valid process entry there, print the array index and the
        following fields from the proc structure:

                p_stat, p_flag, p_pid, p_ppid,
                p_addr, p_size, p_wchan, p_textp

Syscalls in V5 but not in `nsys':
---------------------------------

        0, &getpid,                     /* 20 = getpid */
        1, &smdate,                     /* 30 = smdate */
        0, &nice,                       /* 34 = nice */
        0, &pipe,                       /* 42 = pipe */		!!!
        4, &profil,                     /* 44 = prof */

Other Differences
-----------------

        /* 21 = mount */ has 2 arguments in `nsys', 3 in V5
        /* 37 = kill */  has 0 arguments in `nsys', 1 in V5


From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 19 06:33:08 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:33:08 -0500
Subject: University of Wisconsin's hacked 4.3BSD
Message-ID: <199901182033.PAA01180@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have just uploaded the distribution images for the University of Winconsin's
hacked 4.3BSD contributed by James Lothian. You can find them in the
Distributions/4bsd/thirdparty/UWisc4.3 directory in the PUPS archive.

I haven't uploaded James' own changed /usr/src yet, will probably do it later
at night.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan 19 12:08:22 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:08:22 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Co-authors for Unix history paper?
Message-ID: <199901190208.NAA02324@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Hi all,
	I recently approached the IEEE Annals of Computing History journal
to see if they would be interested in a paper on our efforts to find and
preserve the old versions of Unix. They said yes, so I was wondering if
anybody might want to be co-author. This is what I suggested:

> I'd like to write an article which describes the efforts to find and
> preserve historical material which is related to UNIX. This includes
> finding tapes, reading them, decoding their formats etc.
> 
> The article would also discuss the mechanisms available for running
> these old UNIX systems: by using old hardware (and the difficulties
> of maintaining such equipment), by using software emulators (and
> possibly a discussion of what they provide).
> 
> In other words, the actual history of UNIX and its influence would not
> be covered, but the `archaeology' and preservation of artifacts from
> the early days of UNIX would be.

Given that there are people on the list who deal with old hardware, reading
ancient tapes, etc., I thought they might like to add some input to the
paper.

I think the paper size is limited to around 25-30 pages, and has be formal
in tone. If anybody has any suggestions as to what should go in (or even
wants to write a section), then I would welcome some email!

Cheers all,
	Warren

P.S I'm giving a similar, but much more informal, paper at a local
conference next month. The paper is at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Seminars/Saving_Unix/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 19 18:46:44 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:46:44 -0500
Subject: James Lothian's /usr/src tarball
Message-ID: <199901190846.DAA01382@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have just uploaded James Lothian's /usr/src tarball. You can find it in the
Distributions/4bsd/thirdparty/UWisc4.3/James_Lothian_mods directory in the PUPS
archive.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 20 08:47:23 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:47:23 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Intruiging bits in the nsys kernel
In-Reply-To: <199901191633.KAA22239@fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Jan 19, 1999 10:33:43 am"
Message-ID: <199901192247.JAA05453@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Eric Fischer:
> Congratulations on getting the nsys kernel running!  I have
> a couple of random comments on what you posted to the list:
> 
> > Syscalls in `nsys' but not in V5:
> > ---------------------------------
> >         1, &quit,                       /* 26 = quit */
> >         1, &intr,                       /* 27 = intr */
> >         1, &cemt,                       /* 29 = cemt */
> >         1, &ilgins,                     /* 33 = ilgins */
> >         1, &fpe,                        /* 40 = fpe */
> > 
> >                 These deliver signals QUIT, INTR, EMT, INS or FPE
> >                 to the pid in arg0. Any user can send these signals.
> 
> I think this is backwards -- these system calls don't deliver
> signals, they trap them.  That is, they're the predecessors
> of signal(), not kill().

Eric is quite correct, and I realised this after reading some comments
on the V2 kernel. The nsys kernel also has a sig() system call which
allows a process to trap an arbitrary signal. This is why the syscalls
above were removed: there was a more general system call available.
 
> 
> > Syscalls in V5 but not in `nsys':
> > ---------------------------------
> >         0, &getpid,                     /* 20 = getpid */
> >         1, &smdate,                     /* 30 = smdate */
> >         0, &nice,                       /* 34 = nice */
> >         0, &pipe,                       /* 42 = pipe */		!!!
> >         4, &profil,                     /* 44 = prof */
> 
> This part seems really weird.  Since it has fpe() but not nice() and
> pipe(), that would have to mean it's somewhere intermediate between
> v2 and v3, at least if the details in Doug McIlroy's "Research Unix
> Reader" are all accurate.  And I *really* don't understand why there
> would be space reserved in the system call table for nice and pipe
> but no implementations of the functions.
> 
> The other weird part is that McIlroy says that smdate() was in v1
> through v3 but disappeared after that.  I don't have the v5 kernel
> source at hand right now, so I can't check up on that, but it's
> strange that smdate should be missing here if this is an early v3.
> 
> Actually, on further inspection this must be a *late* v3, since it
> has mknod(), getgid(), and setgid(), which aren't supposed to have
> shown up until v4.  (No signal(), though, so it's not quite v4.)
> That's still very odd that pipes would be left out, unless this
> version was crunched to run in an especially small memory or something.
> 
> And yet, v3 was supposed to have been released in February, 1973, and
> this is earlier than that, so what are any v4 features doing there at
> all?  This just gets stranger and stranger...
> eric

I've had some chat with Dennis about this kernel, and how it fitted into
development. The summary is: Ken tried to rewrite the assembly version of
the kernel in B (or NB) in 1972, but gave up because structures didn't
exist. Once B -> NB -> C and got structures, they tried again. Apparently,
the `new' kernel (aka nsys) was developed in parallel with the `old' 
assembly kernel during early to mid-1973. Then, Dennis says:

	I'm pretty sure that we didn't adopt [the C version of the kernel]
	as the standard "production" system until about September 1973.
	It is very likely that the real "sys" was still in assembler.
	Pipes were probably added first to [the sys] version, given the
	evidence in "nsys."

Dennis also says:

	During 1972, Ken finally puts pipes into Unix at McIlroy's urging.

which would explain why there is a reserved syscall in `nsys', but no
code as yet.

I can't explain the existence of the mknod(), getgid(), and setgid()
system calls. Norman and Bob Keys, I think one/both of you have got the
old manuals, can you look through them and find out when these syscalls
appeared?

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 20 13:46:41 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
Message-ID: <199901200346.OAA06481@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of
Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970. It's at:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg

Ciao,
	Warren

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From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca  Thu Jan 21 01:43:58 1999
From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:43:58 -0500
Subject: Intruiging bits in the nsys kernel
Message-ID: <199901201544.CAA14976@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Some answers to Warren's queries:

mknod(II) first shows up in the Fourth Edition; the manual entry is dated
8/5/73.  (That having been typed in the US, presumably it means 5 Aug 1973.)
getgid(II) shows in the same manual, but with an older date: 3/15/72.
This is also the edition in which the documentation for stat(II) first
admits a group ID as well as a user ID.

Both my hazy memory (made worse by lack of sleep right now) and the clues
in the manual suggest that 3e/4e was the period when the system was rewritten
in C; e.g. 4e is the first to show C interfaces in section II, complete with
structs as well as pure byte-offset descriptions for objects like that filled
in by stat, though the structs are nameless, presumably because there were no
standard header files yet.  Evidently the file system upheaval occurred in
the same period.

Reading the description of the 3e file system, I see it has been too long since
I've read it.  A summary:
	Blocks 0 and 1 are the super-block, consisting of
		size of free-storage bitmap
		the map itself
		size of free-i-node map
		the map itself
	Block 2 begins the i-list; data blocks follow.
	I-nodes 1-40 are reserved for special (device) files,
	and don't appear in the map.  I-node 41 is the root.
	I-nodes have flags, a link count, a userid, a 16-bit
	size, creation and modification times, and eight block
	pointers.  Flag bits inclode `allocated', `large file'
	(the pointers are to indirect blocks), read and write
	permissions for user and other, set-userid, a single
	`executable' flag, a `directory' flag (if clear, regular
	file).

	BUGS
	Two blocks are not enough to handle the i- and free-
	storage maps for an RP02 disk pack, which contains
	around 10 million words.

The 4e file system is more or less that in the more-familiar V6 system:
	Block 0 reserved for boot block
	Block 1 is the super-block: file-system and i-list sizes,
	caches of free block and i-node numbers.  The free-block
	list is now the familiar chain of blocks list free block
	numbers; the free-inode list is abolished because the
	i-nodes all have `allocated' flags anyway.
	Block 2 begins the i-list.  I-node 1 is the root.
	I-nodes differ from 3e in having a group ID,a 24-bit
	size, access time instead of creation time; the `directory'
	flag becomes a two-bit `file type' flag; group permissions
	appear, there are three separate `executable' flags, and
	set-group-ID appears.

	No BUGS yet, perhaps because the code was new.

Notice how history repeats: 4e replaced the free-block bitmap with
a list, which made it simpler to cope with huge file systems but
harder to allocate blocks in a simpler order; sundry replacement
file systems in the early 1980s (Berkeley FFS, Weinberger's cheap
hacks in V8) restored the bitmap, because it's easier to pick a good
block when you can see all the blocks available, and because by then
computers had enough memory and disks were big enough that a large
bitmap wasn't a burden.

An anecdote may be (barely) relevant here.  I remember once in the
late 1980s having a chat with Lee McMahon about group IDs, and how
they didn't seem to have done quite what people wanted (hence the
multiple-groups-per-process stuff in most current systems, and the
special semantics for the set-group-id flag on directories, and
various other features that have seemed to me never to quite hit
the mark).  Lee told me that when Ken first put group IDs into the
system, he asked Ken what they were for.  Ken allegedly shrugged
and said `I dunno.'

Norman Wilson

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From mjenkins at carp.gbr.epa.gov  Thu Jan 21 02:49:27 1999
From: mjenkins at carp.gbr.epa.gov (Mike Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:49:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
In-Reply-To: <199901200346.OAA06481@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <199901201649.KAA08238@carp.gbr.epa.gov>

> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg

There is a smaller (26K) gif version on the following page:

	 http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html

The URL for the gif is:

	 http://www.lucent.com/museum/images/1950/1969rt.gif

Mike


From agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu  Thu Jan 21 08:10:51 1999
From: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:10:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901201708340.26596-100000@dizzy.cs.fiu.edu>


Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.

Any help would be appreciated.



*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu
*********************************


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan 21 08:15:24 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:15:24 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901201708340.26596-100000@dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 20, 1999  5:10:51 pm"
Message-ID: <199901202215.JAA08028@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> 
> Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.

Have a look at the 6th Edition installation instructions at:

	http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Setup/v6_setup.html

Cheers,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan 21 08:47:37 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:47:37 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Early UNIX dates
Message-ID: <199901202247.JAA08078@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	After some reading though papers and books, I've come up with the
following brief timeline of very early UNIX development. I just thought
some of you might find it interesting.

	Warren


		   Early dates of UNIX Development

As accurately as we can tell, anyway! References given where possible.

1969
	Unknown: Ken creates `Space Travel'. It was first written on Multics,
		then transliterated into Fortran for GECOS, then Ken and
		Dennis rewrote Space Travel to run on the PDP-7
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]

	Mid-year: Bell Labs withdraws from the Multics project
		  [QCU pg 8]

	April, May, June: Ken is interested in writing a file system
		  [QCU pg 8]

	Mid-year: Ken brings the file system to life on the PDP-7 in a month
		  [QCU pg 10]

	Unknown: Ken develops the B language
		  [QCU pg 34],
		  [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]

1970
	Unknown: Peter Neumann coins the term `Unics', which is
		subsequently changed to `Unix'
		  [QCU pg 9]

	Unknown: Alternatively, Brian Kernighan suggests the name `Unix'
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]

	Mid-year: The PDP-11/20 is purchased, with no disk drives
		[QCU pg 35],
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]

	3 months later: The disks arrive
		  [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]

	Unknown: Ken recodes the Unix kernel and some commands in PDP-11
		assembly code
		  [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]

1971
	January-March: PDP-11 version largely rewritten during this period
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html]

	February: PDP-11 Unix beccomes ``operational''
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html]

	Unknown: Dennis extends B to be NB
		  [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]

	Spring: roff rewritten in PDP-11 assembler language, starting from
		the PDP-7 version that had been transliterated from
		McIlroy's BCPL version on Multics, which had in turn been
		inspired by J. Saltzer's runoff program on CTSS
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]
	
	November: First Edition manuals were published
		  [QCU pg 43]

1972
	January: The Labs issues a technical memorandum, written by Ken,
		describing the B language on the PDP-11
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.html]

	March: First manual for cc(1)
		  [QCU pg 48]

	March: UNIX is running on at least 5 PDP-11/20s
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html]

	June: DEC starts to ship the PDP-11/45. The Labs purchases one
		sonn after this
		[http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/11model.html]

	June: Second Edition manuals were published. 10 UNIX installations
		  [QCU pg 43]

	Unknown: Ken adds pipes to the assembly-language version of the kernel
		[QCU pg 51],
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]

1973
	January: the `nsys' kernel in the PUPS archive, written in C
		[timestamps on the files]

	February: Third Edition manuals were published. 16 UNIX installations
		  [QCU pg 43]
		  Kernel is still the assembly-language version
		  [private email from dmr dated 7 Jan 1999]

	September: The C version of the kernel is adopted over the
		assembly-language version
		  [private email from dmr dated 18 Jan 1999]

	October: First UNIX paper, presented by Ken at the Fourth
    		ACM Symposium on Operating Systems Principles
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html]

	November: Fourth Edition manuals were published
		  [QCU pg 43]

1974
	June: Fifth Edition manuals were published
		  [QCU pg 43]

	July: Ken's SOSP published in Communications of the ACM, 17, No. 7
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html]

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Jan 21 10:58:47 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:47 +1030
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
In-Reply-To: <199901201649.KAA08238@carp.gbr.epa.gov>; from Mike Jenkins on Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:49:27AM -0600
References: <199901200346.OAA06481@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199901201649.KAA08238@carp.gbr.epa.gov>
Message-ID: <19990121112846.N15785@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 20 January 1999 at 10:49:27 -0600, Mike Jenkins wrote:
>> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg
>
> There is a smaller (26K) gif version on the following page:
>
> 	 http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html
>
> The URL for the gif is:
>
> 	 http://www.lucent.com/museum/images/1950/1969rt.gif

The original .jpeg could do with re-saving; with xv you can get it
down to 10% of the original volume.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu  Thu Jan 21 11:28:31 1999
From: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <199901202215.JAA08028@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>


I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I
get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.


Thanks for the help,
Alex

*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu
*********************************

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:

> In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> > 
> > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
> > 
> > Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Have a look at the 6th Edition installation instructions at:
> 
> 	http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Setup/v6_setup.html
> 
> Cheers,
> 	Warren
> 


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan 21 13:50:59 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 20, 1999  8:28:31 pm"
Message-ID: <199901210350.OAA09253@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> 
> Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
> 
> I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I
> get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.

The 6th Ed installation instructions say: The tape contains 12100 512-byte
records followed by a single file mark. Have you made the tape image for
Bob Supnik's emulator to match this, and what configuration file are you
giving to the emulator?

Thanks,
	Warren

P.S You can use the RK05 disk image in
Distributions/research/Dennis_v6/v6root.gz, or the RL02 image in
Bootable_Images/v6_rl02_unknown.gz,
unless you really do want to install V6 from tape.

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From tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO  Thu Jan 21 15:23:56 1999
From: tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo)
Date: 21 Jan 1999 06:23:56 +0100
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: alejandro gonzalez's message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST)"
References: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>
Message-ID: <8667a1ci6r.fsf@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>

alejandro gonzalez <agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu> writes:

> I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when
> I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.

You're following the wrong instructions.  :-)  Or, at least, you're
taking them too literally.  You're trying to use the tape the way it
would be done on a real machine, but it's much easier to just split it
into disk images under the host UNIX.  Looking in my V6 directory,
I've got a text file containing something that I believe Warren wrote,
in a text file accompanying the tape image:

"This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent
to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the
first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks
100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr
RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image."

So what I did with that tape, for Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator, was
to run these commands under the host UNIX:

	% gunzip v6.tape.gz
	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.root.rk05 count=4000 skip=100
	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.usr.rk05 count=4000 skip=4100
	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.doc.rk05 count=4000 skip=8100

Then, I made a script file for the simulator:

	% cat > v6.script
	attach rk0 V6.root.rk05
	attach rk1 V6.usr.rk05
	attach rk2 V6.doc.rk05
	boot rk0
	^d
	%

...and finally, I run the resulting system, thus:

	% pdp11 v6.script
	PDP-11 simulator V2.3
	@unix
	login:

I may have had to modify something in the actual UNIX V6 system to
mount rk1 and rk2 properly -- I don't recall.  You'll figure it out.

Anyway, the system runs like a charm, and I've successfully rebuilt
the kernel from sources on it.  Fun!

Good luck!

-tih
-- 
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"

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From tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO  Thu Jan 21 15:28:07 1999
From: tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo)
Date: 21 Jan 1999 06:28:07 +0100
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
In-Reply-To: Warren Toomey's message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST)"
References: <199901200346.OAA06481@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <863e55chzs.fsf@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>

Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:

> 	Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of
> Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970.

That's neat!  I've got a very good print of it here (that huge Epson
color inkjet printer we bought at work really does a good job with the
expensive "photo quality" paper in it), and will frame it and hang it
on the wall of my basement machine room in my home.  However (and my
ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture?

-tih
-- 
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"

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From emu at ecubics.com  Fri Jan 22 01:19:45 1999
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:19:45 -0700
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
Message-ID: <19990121152024.AAA2583@p2350>

Hi,

----------
> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO>
> To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 10:28 PM

> on the wall of my basement machine room in my home.  However (and my
> ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture?

Dennis is the one with the glasses & beart ... ;-))

cheers,
emu

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From agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu  Fri Jan 22 03:14:02 1999
From: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <8667a1ci6r.fsf@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901211213500.18250-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>

Thanks a lot. It works now.



*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu
*********************************

On 21 Jan 1999, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote:

> alejandro gonzalez <agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu> writes:
> 
> > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when
> > I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.
> 
> You're following the wrong instructions.  :-)  Or, at least, you're
> taking them too literally.  You're trying to use the tape the way it
> would be done on a real machine, but it's much easier to just split it
> into disk images under the host UNIX.  Looking in my V6 directory,
> I've got a text file containing something that I believe Warren wrote,
> in a text file accompanying the tape image:
> 
> "This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent
> to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the
> first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks
> 100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr
> RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image."
> 
> So what I did with that tape, for Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator, was
> to run these commands under the host UNIX:
> 
> 	% gunzip v6.tape.gz
> 	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.root.rk05 count=4000 skip=100
> 	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.usr.rk05 count=4000 skip=4100
> 	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.doc.rk05 count=4000 skip=8100
> 
> Then, I made a script file for the simulator:
> 
> 	% cat > v6.script
> 	attach rk0 V6.root.rk05
> 	attach rk1 V6.usr.rk05
> 	attach rk2 V6.doc.rk05
> 	boot rk0
> 	^d
> 	%
> 
> ...and finally, I run the resulting system, thus:
> 
> 	% pdp11 v6.script
> 	PDP-11 simulator V2.3
> 	@unix
> 	login:
> 
> I may have had to modify something in the actual UNIX V6 system to
> mount rk1 and rk2 properly -- I don't recall.  You'll figure it out.
> 
> Anyway, the system runs like a charm, and I've successfully rebuilt
> the kernel from sources on it.  Fun!
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> -tih
> -- 
> Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
> 


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From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Fri Jan 22 04:26:54 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:26:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: here's a dumb question
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121101819.30461A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>


OK, so I was at my ISP the other day and after a talk with the owner I
walked home with a bunch of pieces from a microvax II, which I used to
completely pimp out my PDP-11/73...  One of the new pieces is a hard
drive, which allows me to write assembly code with the RSTS/E Macro
Assembler, write them to the hard drive, and boot the system up in
non-RSTSish ways...

I'm new to PDP-11 assembly language, however, and I don't have a really
complete manual...  The general purpose registers are all 16 bits.
Addresses stored in these registers can only point to the first 32K words
of memory.  My PDP has a 512K words of memory.  The only reference I've
seen to this problem was one sentence in one of my manuals that says the
rest of the memory can be addressed through "memory management".  When it
says this, does it mean that there is a separate memory management unit
that I have to control to flip between pages or banks of memory, or are
there extended registers in the CPU itself that allow me to do this?  I
crashed the machine the other day and I noticed that the monitor listed
some registers that started with M...  Could that be what these are for?
(The computer claims to have 22-bit addressing, BTW.)

	-- Erin Corliss




From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jan 22 07:53:01 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:53:01 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
In-Reply-To: <863e55chzs.fsf@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> from Tom Ivar Helbekkmo at "Jan 21, 1999  6:28: 7 am"
Message-ID: <199901212153.IAA10891@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Tom Ivar Helbekkmo:
> Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:
> 
> > 	Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of
> > Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970.
> 
> That's neat!  I've got a very good print of it here (that huge Epson
> color inkjet printer we bought at work really does a good job with the
> expensive "photo quality" paper in it), and will frame it and hang it
> on the wall of my basement machine room in my home.  However (and my
> ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture?

Dennis is the one, bearded, on the left. Ken is sitting at the
terminal.

	Warren


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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Fri Jan 22 08:56:42 1999
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:56:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
Message-ID: <199901212256.OAA16254@mpl.ucsd.edu>

> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST)
> 
> In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> > 
> > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
> > 
> > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I
> > get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.
> 
> The 6th Ed installation instructions say: The tape contains 12100 512-byte
> records followed by a single file mark. Have you made the tape image for
> Bob Supnik's emulator to match this, and what configuration file are you
> giving to the emulator?

But the tape image also contains bootstraps for two kinds of tape drives
in the first 100 blocks.  Followed by 3 x 4000-block RK05 images.  More
than this I don't remember offhand, but I do have the "Setting up Unix"
document on a bookshelf somewhere in another office.

> P.S You can use the RK05 disk image in
> Distributions/research/Dennis_v6/v6root.gz, or the RL02 image in
> Bootable_Images/v6_rl02_unknown.gz,
> unless you really do want to install V6 from tape.

The number of people in the world who have actually installed V6 from
tape is probably pretty small.  But I am one of them, for better or worse.

    carl

        carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
        {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl                 cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu
                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu

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From dave at fgh.geac.com.au  Fri Jan 22 10:03:31 1999
From: dave at fgh.geac.com.au (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:03:31 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <199901212256.OAA16254@mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9901221102270.3559-100000@fgh>

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote:

> The number of people in the world who have actually installed V6 from
> tape is probably pretty small.  But I am one of them, for better or worse.

Me too :-)  But I've long since forgotten the details...

-- 
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Fri Jan 22 10:36:01 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:36:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Memory Management
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>


The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management
scheme.  It says that when the machine is first started, the memory
management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the
segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777
range somewhere)?


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jan 22 10:39:04 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:39:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
Message-ID: <199901220039.LAA11544@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	Here is how to install 6th Edition from the tape image v6.tape.gz
in Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6, onto Bob Supnik's emulator 2.3d:

I found makesimtape.c in Trees/2.11BSD/usr/src/sys/pdpstand in the
PUPS Archive.

	Warren


/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ls -l
total 14822
-rwx------  1 wkt  wheel     6018 Jan 22 11:18 makesimtape
-rwx------  1 wkt  wheel   117728 Jan 11 14:02 pdp
-rw-------  1 wkt  wheel       42 Jan 22 11:27 v6
-r--------  1 wkt  wheel  6195200 Jan 22 11:20 v6.tape
-r--------  1 wkt  wheel  2494464 Jan 15 14:14 v6root
-rw-------  1 wkt  wheel       14 Jan 22 11:23 z

/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: cat z		# Input to makesimtape
v6.tape 1
* 1

/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ./makesimtape -i z -o v6tape
v6.tape: block 0, file 0
					# Output is file v6tape, not shown

/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: cat v6		# Supnik sim config file
set cpu 18b
att rk0 v6root
att tm0 v6tape

/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ./pdp v6	# Run simulator

PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> id 10000-10012			# Toggle in boot code
10000:	012700				# as per V6 install
10002:	172526				# instructions
10004:	010040
10006:	012740
10010:	060003
10012:	000777
sim> g 10000				# Run above boot code
					# After a while, enter ctrl-E
Simulation stopped, PC: 010012 (BR 10012)
sim> g 0				# Restart CPU at location 0
=tmrk
disk offset				# Follow instructions as per
0					# V6 install notes
tape offset
100
count
1
=tmrk
disk offset
1
tape offset
101
count
3999
=					# Enter ctrl-E
Simulation stopped, PC: 137274 (TSTB @#177560)

sim> b rk				# Boot RK device 0
@rkunix					# Choose correct kernel image

login: root
# ls -l
total 244
drwxrwxr-x  2 bin      1104 May 14 00:47 bin
drwxrwxr-x  2 bin      1824 Aug 14 22:04 dev
drwxrwxr-x  2 bin       496 Oct 10 12:29 etc
-rwxrwxrwx  1 root    29074 Oct 10 12:28 hpunix
drwxrwxr-x  2 bin       464 May 13 23:35 lib
drwxrwxr-x  2 bin        32 May 13 20:01 mnt
-rwxrwxrwx  1 root    28836 Oct 10 12:22 rkunix
-rwxrwxrwx  1 root    29020 Oct 10 12:25 rpunix
drwxrwxrwx  2 bin       272 Jul 18 09:19 tmp
-rw-rw-rw-  1 root    28684 Jul 18 09:18 unix
drwxrwxr-x 14 bin       224 May 13 20:16 usr
# sync
# 					# Enter ctrl-E again
Simulation stopped, PC: 016022 (SOB R4,15746)
sim> q
Goodbye

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From dave at fgh.geac.com.au  Fri Jan 22 13:18:36 1999
From: dave at fgh.geac.com.au (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:18:36 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Memory Management
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9901221417120.3559-100000@fgh>

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Erin W. Corliss wrote:

> The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management
> scheme.  It says that when the machine is first started, the memory
> management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the
> segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777
> range somewhere)?

I'll check my PDP-11 manuals when I get home; if I have a spare one I'll
send it to you.  What was the model again?  An 11/70 or something?

-- 
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Fri Jan 22 18:27:12 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 03:27:12 -0500
Subject: Quasijarus Project WWW page set update and change in passwd plans
Message-ID: <199901220827.DAA02071@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have just updated the Quasijarus Project WWW page set, adding the features
page listing all features added to the master source tree since the currently
shipping release. You can find this new page at:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html

I have also changed my plans regarding the shadow and shared passwords. See:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/passwd.html

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 23 10:13:02 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:13:02 -0500
Subject: DEC odds and ends
Message-ID: <199901230013.TAA02236@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have just created a new directory in the 4BSD area of the PUPS archive,
Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends.

This directory contains various DEC odds and ends: microcodes, ROM images,
diags, VMS/Ultrix booters and bits, etc.

The following items are currently available:

rabads.core	Ultrix rabads program, pure core version for putting onto
		console media and loading via console commands.

rabads.a.out	Ultrix rabads program, a.out version for putting onto a UNIX
		filesystem and loading via UNIX boot.

scsimfm.bin	EPROM image from the SCSI/MFM daughterboard for KA42.

This list is certain to grow very soon.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Mon Jan 25 15:25:43 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:25:43 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901250525.AAA02814@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware
collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Jan 26 09:54:48 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:54:48 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901252354.AA02014@world.std.com>

<I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware
<collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive.

Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!

Allison


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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 11:25:12 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:25:12 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901260125.UAA03071@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:

> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!

The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. Why
not have VAX ones too?

But if too many people start complaining, I'll just move the entire odds-ends
directory to one of my friend's _anonymous_ FTP site.

BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Just
look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at the
fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's
copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX and
Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our group
(PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care for
Ancient DEC.

And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally
recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which despite
its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BSD
distributions).

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From emu at ecubics.com  Tue Jan 26 11:21:38 1999
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:21:38 -0700
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>

Hi all,
why this version isn't in the pups archive ?

cheers,
emanuel

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Tue Jan 26 12:05:12 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>; from emanuel stiebler on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700
References: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>
Message-ID: <19990125210512.A22884@rek.tjls.com>

On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> Hi all,
> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
> 
> cheers,
> emanuel

It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.

What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
from CSRG.

Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?  Is it feasible
to do so now?  I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
VAX, using the old VM system?  I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
was the primary development platform, right?  Had the LBL SPARC port
been integrated?

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls at rek.tjls.com
	"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 12:35:13 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:35:13 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901260235.VAA03105@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

emanuel stiebler <emu at ecubics.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?

Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness
of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland
has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me.

Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading
_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not,
please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can
take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK).

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 13:23:32 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:23:32 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901260323.WAA03123@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
> distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.

See my previous posting.

> What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
> time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
> to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
> from CSRG.

You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
tape was pressed.

> Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?

You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
matter.

> Is it feasible
> to do so now?

I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.

> I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
> actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
> VAX, using the old VM system?

I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.

> I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
> was the primary development platform, right?

Yes.

> Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?

Yes.

You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point
in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.

If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.

BTW, it's not just that I suddenly declared myself to be the new CSRG. I earned
this title, not just assumed it. Marshall Kirk McKusick himself (the previous
maintainer of CSRG) acknowledges me as the new principal maintainer and
architect. Oh, and he doesn't even object to my decision to undo all of his and
others' 1988-1995 work with the SCCS Time Machine. He said himself in a private
E-mail that he would love to see the golden old non-bloated system resurrected.

I have used the term "True UNIX" several times in this message. Let me explain
what I mean. While others may view the history of UNIX as a tree (you hear
about UNIX history tree diagrams all the time), I view it as a straight line.
The straight line of _mainstream_ True UNIX development looks like this:

V6 (Bell) -> V7 (Bell) -> 32V (Bell) -> 3BSD (UCB) -> 4.0BSD (UCB) -> 4.1BSD
(UCB) -> 4.2BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe (UCB) ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 (Michael Sokolov) -> future Quasijarus releases (Michael
Sokolov).

For each release the responsible entity is indicated in parentheses. There are
several things worth noting here. Notice how after V7 and 32V the torch of True
UNIX development moves from Bell to UCB, never to return to Bell again. This is
because everything Bell did after that (System V and such) deviates from the
True UNIX ideology and loses the True UNIX torch. In late 1970s or early 1980s
UCB picks up this torch and carries it until 1988. In 1988 UCB starts deviating
from True UNIX too with the evil spirit of POSIX and everything, and loses the
torch. The torch was laying on the ground from that point until the 27th of
December 1998 when I picked it up with the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release. Now I'm
carrying it into the next millennium.

Check out the Quasijarus Project WWW page referenced in my mail signature.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Jan 26 13:17:05 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:17:05 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901260317.AA02518@world.std.com>

<> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
<
<The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends.
<not have VAX ones too?

Yes but, not copyrighted firmware.  The KA650 B V1.2 firmware is not 
released or granted publication that I know of and the straw horse of, 
"well, PDP-xx is here" is not the issue.

<BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Jus
<look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at t

There is a distinct difference between DEC contributed and the KA650 rom 
image.

<fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's
<copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX an
<Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our gro
<(PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care 
<Ancient DEC.

It is neither the point nor applicable.  It's a specious arguement in an 
attempt to not respect the copyrighted firmware on the CPU card that is
not distributed.  The fact that DEC and unix go well is not the issue 
either.

<And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally
<recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which desp
<its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BS
<distributions).

I doubt that the KA650 bootrom image was in there as original distribution.
If the system is a KA650 it would be available on the system and if it is 
not it's meaningless.  My comment earlier was directly and specifically 
aimed at the KA650 B V1.2 Eprom image.

The problem is that failure to respect the copyrights and ownerships of 
any code, especially firmware could lead to vendors taking a future 
hostile stance to the work of PUPS.  That would be very undesireable.

Allison



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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 14:50:33 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:50:33 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901260450.XAA03161@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is to
establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision for
every machine supported by my UNIX system. Why? As you may remember from our
extensive phone discussions, UNIX is quite picky about which hardware to run
on. In many cases (on a 730, for example), UNIX won't boot if the firmware is
below the minimum required revision. I know for sure that this is the case on
730, 8200, and if James Lothian's WCS changes get integrated, 750. It will also
be the case on BabyVAXen when I get around to supporting them. Now, so far I
haven't heard any reports of UNIX refusing to boot on KA650s with early
microcode revisions, but one may come in at some point. Since my KA650 runs
UNIX right now, I know for sure that at least my version of the firmware is
UNIX-friendly. By making it available to other 4.3BSD-Quasijarus users (note
that keeping the microcode repository within the PUPS archive has the advantage
of giving the images out only to Ancient UNIX enthusiasts, i.e., only to those
who really need them), I can make sure that the greatest possible number of
people can benefit from my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus work.

Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcode
updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragbag of
DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Soon
UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TMSCP
tapes on large VAXen. Yes, there is one distributed with the machine itself,
but it's too old. UNIX requires a very recent version, and if I want my OS to
be viable, there will simply be no other choice but to distribute VMB.EXE. Or
look at BI-bus machines. There were two different BI network cards made, DEBNA
and DEBNI. They have the same hardware, but different EPROMs. DEBNA is the
older one and DEBNI is the newer one. They have completely different software
interfaces, and DEBNI is a lot simpler to program. Right now UNIX doesn't
support any BI network cards. Suppose I decide to add this support. Given how
hard it is to find documentation, write drivers, and test them, what do you
think, will I welcome the idea of writing two drivers instead of one? Rather
than spend months hunting for a BVP manual and writing a DEBNA driver, it's
much easier to write a driver for DEBNI only (much simpler software interface)
and tell DEBNA users to upgrade their boards to DEBNI. The catch is, if you are
getting your 8200 or whatever for free, you don't get to choose which network
card to use, you take what you can find. But with me keeping the repository of
all important EPROM images and microcode patch files, the poor DEBNA user can
just download the image, borrow an EPROM blaster, and run his free VAX with a
UNIX-supported DEBNI!

The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and want
to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmware
upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff it
would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor VAX
UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshooting
support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Tue Jan 26 14:43:10 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260323.WAA03123@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500
References: <199901260323.WAA03123@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990125234310.A1809@rek.tjls.com>

On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> 
> > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
> > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.
> 
> See my previous posting.
> 
> > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
> > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
> > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
> > from CSRG.
> 
> You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
> CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
> existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
> tape was pressed.
> 
> > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?
> 
> You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
> on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
> point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
> matter.
> 
> > Is it feasible
> > to do so now?
> 
> I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
> 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.
> 
> > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
> > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
> > VAX, using the old VM system?
> 
> I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
> definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
> kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
> porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.
> 
> > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
> > was the primary development platform, right?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
> bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point

My interest is not in "resurrecting CSRG".  If I were into that kind of thing
I'd just join Jews For Jesus.  My interest is pretty much purely historical.

> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
> 
> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.

I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
at least, a waste of time.  But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
encourage you to do it, I suppose.

All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
set is horrifying to contemplate.

Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like.  History is history.  Pretending
to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
done.  At least that's my personal take on it.

I think you'd find a substantial number of people who thought that the
"True UNIX" line ran through either SunOS 4 or 9th and 10th Edition, were
you to take a poll of as many wizards as you could summon.  But it's a silly
thing to argue about, which is why I'll assert no position at all on that
issue.  Similarly, I have no interest in arguing about Common LISP
versus Scheme or vi versus Emacs.  Please don't tempt me with a discussion
of X versus MGR or C versus C++ and I'll avoid lecturing at you about
_my_ religious hot buttons. :-)


-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls at rek.tjls.com
	"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jan 26 14:56:59 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <19990125234310.A1809@rek.tjls.com>; from Thor Lancelot Simon on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:43:10PM -0500
References: <199901260323.WAA03123@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> <19990125234310.A1809@rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <19990126152659.I66239@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:43:10 -0500, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
>> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
>> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
>> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
>>
>> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
>> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
>> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
>> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
>> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
>> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
>> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.
>
> All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
> a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> set is horrifying to contemplate.
>
> Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
> nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like.  History is history.  Pretending
> to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
> done.  At least that's my personal take on it.

Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jan 26 15:01:02 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030
Subject: Licensed microcode (was: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image)
In-Reply-To: <199901260450.XAA03161@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:50:33PM -0500
References: <199901260450.XAA03161@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990126153102.J66239@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:50:33 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK?

I think one aspect of a practical viewpoint is to acknowledge that
there are laws relating to proprietary code.  It's not practical to
break these laws, no matter what you may think of them.

> One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest
> available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX
> system.

Fine.  Then negotiate with the owners of the microcode.  I'd guess
that it wouldn't be as difficult as with the AU licenses.  But don't
endanger others with your views on legality.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From rickgc at calweb.com  Wed Jan 13 16:13:50 1999
From: rickgc at calweb.com (Rick Copeland)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:13:50 -0800
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990112221347.006a9f90@pop.calweb.com>

No problem!




At 09:35 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>emanuel stiebler <emu at ecubics.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
>
>Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness
>of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick
Copeland
>has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me.
>
>Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading
>_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If
not,
>please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can
>take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK).
>
>Michael Sokolov
>TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
>4.3BSD-* Maintainer
>Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
>Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
>ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
>TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
>Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
>
>

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 17:44:55 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:44:55 -0500
Subject: VAX EPROM upgrades
Message-ID: <199901260744.CAA03238@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear VAX users,

Due to the storm of protests, the method of distribution of VAX EPROM upgrades
has changed from the PUPS archive to direct uuencoded E-mail. If you require an
EPROM upgrade for your VAX in order to run a UNIX software distribution
obtained from me, please contant me via ARPA Internet SMTP mail and I will send
you the EPROM image, compressed and uuencoded. I currently have the images for
KA650-B V1.2 and KA42 SCSI/MFM daughterboard.

The VAX odds and ends directory in the PUPS archive will still contain the
soft-loaded microcode files and booters, which have already been freely
distributed with different VAX UNIX systems (either 4.3BSD-* or BSD
derivatives like MIT's Athena-4.3BSD).

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 18:40:19 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:40:19 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901260840.DAA03265@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
> at least, a waste of time.  But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
> encourage you to do it, I suppose.

You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
supposed to be driven.

> All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
> a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> set is horrifying to contemplate.

Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD
to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of
arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like
4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup
systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe.

> Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]

Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.

> History is history.

Yes, history is history, and I respect it as such. I'm not trying to abuse my
write access to the 4BSD collection and maliciously modify some preserved tape
image without anyone's knowledge. However, there is nothing in the world that
prevents a developer from creating a new version of system from an old one. If
there is an SCCS file with deltas ranging from 1.1 to 7.16, there is absolutely
nothing in the world preventing a developer with legitimate authorized write
access to that file from checking in delta 7.17. I am a legitimate authorized
Berkeley UNIX developer (actually the principal one at the present time). My
title as the principal maintainer has been legitimized and blessed by the
previous CSRG maintainer.

> Pretending
> to be an organization which doesn't exist...

First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and
authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems
Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could
conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely
confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that.

> [...] gets very little useful work done.

Check out the Quasijarus features page:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html

So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less
than a month ago.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 18:40:40 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:40:40 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901260840.DAA03267@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:

> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.

That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even yours. BSDI has
no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents of University of
California. The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted
modification and distribution of modified versions. Incrementing the version
number is one of the most natural operations a developer modifying the system
can do. If I were to use CSRG's final 1995 code as my starting point, I would
indeed call my system 4.5BSD, and I would have the full right to do so. The
only reason I do not and cannot call my system 4.5BSD, 5BSD, or whatever is
because I'm tmachining the SCCS tree back to 1988, nullifying 4.4BSD.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jan 26 18:49:16 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03267@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:40AM -0500
References: <199901260840.DAA03267@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990126191916.A66239@freebie.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at  3:40:40 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
>
>> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
>> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.
>
> That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even
> yours. 

You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.

> BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents
> of University of California.

Of course they have.  The rights are described in the Berkeley
License.

> The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted
> modification and distribution of modified versions.

Precisely.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 20:08:17 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:08:17 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901261008.FAA03320@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:

> You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.

But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some
twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I
suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and
will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been
using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly
decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using
it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in
full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is
still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the
Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer
version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to
modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of
becoming the new principal maintainer.

> > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents
> > of University of California.
>
> Of course they have.  The rights are described in the Berkeley
> License.

I meant that they have no exclusive rights. They have no right to say what I
can or cannot do with the UC Berkeley system. Once Berkeley gave me and
everyone else the rights to redistribute and modify, no one can take these
rights away from me. Not even UC Berkeley itself, since I didn't sign any
agreements that they could terminate.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Tue Jan 26 13:20:46 1999
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500
References: <199901261008.FAA03320@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990126112046.D496@krdl.org.sg>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
> because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
> original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some
> twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I
> suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and
> will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been
> using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly
> decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using
> it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in
> full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is
> still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the
> Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer
> version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to
> modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of
> becoming the new principal maintainer.

Well, not sure I should actually drop into the discussion of experts, but ...
I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. It was the group of
people around Bill Joy, and later Kirk McKusick (many important names omitted)
that had to write *something* onto the tapes shipped with the software. That
is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no
such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)".
You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it.

BSDI is residing in the commercial world. I'm unsure about the motivations for
the trademark (I lost contact with BSDI around the time they renamed the system
BS/DOS), but I'm pretty sure that Rob Kolstad and colleagues meant it to protect
the name against another commercial use as pure "BSD". It is not meant against
any freeware *BSD (reading FreeBSD sources you might figure that some of the
BSDI team members, namely Mike Karels and Kirk McKusick, have actually made
contributions to the freeware effort). And since the core team of BSDI today
consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they
keep calling their work BSD ? They have done an excellent job and everybody
(including Sun and recently other SVR4 folks) acknowledges their contributions.

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041	Fax:   +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace		Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613			Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Tue Jan 26 20:42:06 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:06 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500
References: <199901260840.DAA03265@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990126054206.A13245@rek.tjls.com>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> 
> You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
> UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
> supposed to be driven.
> 

When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know.  It won't even
run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
time soon.  But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least.  I
want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining
about.  I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and
a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC,
which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable.  So any system
you produce is not likely to be useful to me.  Let's agree to disagree
about this.

> > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> > exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
> > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> > set is horrifying to contemplate.
> 
> Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD
> to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of
> arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like
> 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup
> systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe.

You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value
of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release?  I'm just asking
that you be careful not to produce a system which would be difficult to
distinguish from other systems with a very different feature matrix.

> 
> > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
> 
> Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.

Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to
respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with.  As
I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares?  There's certainly room
for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.

[...]
> First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and
> authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems
> Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could
> conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely
> confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that.

I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite
like that, but whatever.  You might not want to say things like that in
the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair
number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they
did.  But that free advice is probably worth what you paid for it.

> Check out the Quasijarus features page:
> 
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html
> 
> So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less
> than a month ago.

It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX.

Thor

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Tue Jan 26 20:43:58 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500
References: <199901261008.FAA03320@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990126054358.B13245@rek.tjls.com>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
> 
> > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.
> 
> But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
> because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
> original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some

You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least
by extension, Mike Karels?


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From agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu  Tue Jan 26 23:27:15 1999
From: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <199901260317.AA02518@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000@dizzy.cs.fiu.edu>


Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
the orginial distribution

The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
etc.. 

Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?

Thanks alot,
Alex


*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu
*********************************



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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 27 05:44:12 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:44:12 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901261944.OAA03412@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Joerg B. Micheel <joerg at krdl.org.sg> wrote:

> I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years.

1995 - 1980 = 15

1980 is the year of the 3BSD release, the first release from CSRG that's an
actual operating system kernel and not just a package of userland enhancements.
If you include the latter (1BSD and 2BSD) too, it'll be more than 15 years.

> That
> is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no
> such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)".
> You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it.

That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.

Marshall Kirk McKusick tells me that he started the same way: first a
contributor, then the principal maintainer. He didn't just assume the title, he
earned it. I followed the same path. I have been doing miscellaneous work in
preparation for this project for the past 3 years. I became the principal
maintainer and architect only when I actually started doing this job, i.e.,
maintaining the master SCCS tree and making architectural decisions.

I have a proposal: Let's end this pointless flame war. Titles are earned, not
assumed. So far the only people participating in it are the ones who have never
actually tried my system on a VAX. It's funny that you guys started challenging
my maintainer job only now and not when I made my first release a month ago.
When I made my release, there was absolutely no dissent from anyone. Instead, I
was getting direct E-mails from several people asking me how to install it on
their VAXen. There is only one way to earn the high title of the principal
maintainer: do a good job at it. The former CSRG folks certainly did this. If
you believe that I haven't done anough for VAX BSD to earn the title of its
maintainer, how about ending this flame war and letting me go back to work so
that I can do my job and prove myself with deeds instead of words?

> And since the core team of BSDI today
> consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they
> keep calling their work BSD ?

No problem at all! All I'm saying is that despite what someone has suggested,
they have no authority to bar others from doing the same.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 27 05:44:34 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:44:34 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901261944.OAA03415@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least
> by extension, Mike Karels?

Why? He is not trying to tell me that I can't do my job. I have nothing against
him and BSDI, and since he has never voiced any protests against my work, I'm
assuming that he has nothing against it either.

What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
universally agreed to be unethical.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 27 05:45:04 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:45:04 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901261945.OAA03418@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know.  It won't even
> run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
> time soon.

Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.

If you want to speed it up, tell me what hardware do you have, and maybe then
we can replace this flame war with a fruitful technical discussion of its
buses, devices, and registers, eventually culminating with writing of the
necessary drivers. The primary difficulty with expanding hardware support is
the lack of hardware. If you have the hardware and want it supported, volunteer
to be a guinea pig for driver testing. I already have several ideas on how to
add support for certain machines, and if someone volunteers to be a guinea pig,
I will be happy to send him/her some code to try firing up.

Oh, BTW, it should already be possible to run my system's userland on almost
every VAX ever made by running it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Ultrix is a close
4.3BSD derivative, and its system calls are a proper superset of the 4.3BSD
ones. Ultrix runs 4.3BSD binaries natively, without invoking any special
"emulation" or "compatibility code", since every syscall that is native for
4.3BSD is also native for Ultrix. A system composed of an Ultrix kernel and the
userland from my latest release (without recompilation!) should run even better
than pure Ultrix.

> But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
> is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least.

No, this is not my definition.

> I
> want support for the hardware I own

This will be done if you are willing to cooperate.

> and features like mmap() and NFS.

Sorry about mmap(), but I definitely will implement NFS.

> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're
> complaining about.

Hardware support expansion, NFS, and even mmap() affect the kernel only.
4.3BSD-Reno blows up the userland by a factor 2, and 4.4BSD is even worse.

> You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value
> of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release?

I just checked, and CSRG did not bump this symbol for the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release,
it still says 43, just like for plain 4.3BSD. If CSRG didn't bump it for Tahoe,
I don't have to bump it for Quasijarus either.

> As
> I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
> you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
> from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares?  There's certainly room
> for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.

I'm being combative only when others are. If someone challenges my job as the
current principal maintainer of Berkeley VAX UNIX, I have to defend it, that's
all.

> I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite
> like that, but whatever.  You might not want to say things like that in
> the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair
> number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they
> did.

I respectfully disagree. I'm not taking any credit away from CSRG, but just
because Marshall Kirk McKusick and his fellows no longer do this job doesn't
mean that I can't do it. As I said, Kirk has practically passed the torch to me
himself.

> It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX.

Exactly, and let's switch from flames to something more useful so that I and
other 4.3BSD-* contributors can do our jobs and prove ourselves with deeds
instead of words.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/


From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan 27 06:36:49 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:36:49 +0100 (MET)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <19990126054206.A13245@rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990126212833.23686C-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:

Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
here I go again...

> On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> > 
> > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
> > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
> > supposed to be driven.

I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
you have.

> When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know.  It won't even
> run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
> time soon.  But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
> is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least.  I
> want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining
> about.  I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and
> a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC,
> which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable.  So any system
> you produce is not likely to be useful to me.  Let's agree to disagree
> about this.

No, Solokov isn't likely to please you.

> > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
> > 
> > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.
> 
> Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to
> respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with.  As
> I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
> you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
> from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares?  There's certainly room
> for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.

Solokov has in the past been more than just combative. I'd say he's more
or less on the hate list of a lot of people on the NetBSD/vax list for
raving all the time. He finally ceased posting there, to most everyones
relief.
Unfortunately he started posting here instead.

Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
secondary issue to me, and historical Unix isn't my playfield.

The other option would be to get out of this list totally, but some people
actually need help with pdp-11 stuff, and there I can contribute.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan 27 06:52:00 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:00 +0100 (MET)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261945.OAA03418@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990126215000.23686D-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:

> Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
> is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
> do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.

FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
Only VMS does.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jan 27 08:23:31 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901262223.OAA13198@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi Johnny -

> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
> here I go again...

	Netbsd's mailing list was rendered unreadable for quite a while ;-(

> I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
> Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs

	I maintain the opposite.  VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
	VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen.  Since DEC
	is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
	the winner/driver.  Are Vaxen even being made any longer?  The ALPHA
	is what is driving Compaq/dec now.

> > I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
> > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're ...

	Amen!  Adding NFS to the kernel about doubles the size of the kernel.

> Unfortunately he started posting here instead.

	;-(

> Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
> Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
> foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a

	Hear hear!  PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
	although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have 
	their own forums though).  I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
	posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
	tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".

	Steven Schultz

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 08:26:24 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST)
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
In-Reply-To: <199901260125.UAA03071@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 25, 1999  8:25:12 pm"
Message-ID: <199901262226.JAA05633@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Michael Sokolov:
> allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
> 
> > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
> 
> The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends.
> Why not have VAX ones too?

Just some clarification here. There is a section in the PUPS Archive
which is not readily accesible to normal S/Key users of the archive.
This is mainly used by those volunteers who are helping to distribute
the archive, and for other sundry stuff.

If a volunteer puts something in there which is copyright, then they
must understand that the legal responsibility is theirs and theirs alone.
The same thing applies to the main archive.

I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
software license.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 08:36:27 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
Message-ID: <199901262236.JAA05730@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Just my $0.02 worth.

I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to
give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto
the CD set.

I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if
they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most
popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent.

I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
recompensed for his work.

However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see,
and it will be added!

Cheers,
	Warren

P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
Thanks.

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 08:38:32 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000@dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 26, 1999  8:27:15 am"
Message-ID: <199901262238.JAA05749@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> 
> Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
> distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
> the orginial distribution
> 
> The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
> etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
> 
> Alex

All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.

	Warren


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 08:44:19 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Split of PUPS mail list??
Message-ID: <199901262244.JAA05790@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.

Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.

Many thanks,

	Warren

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From emu at ecubics.com  Wed Jan 27 09:20:17 1999
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700
Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
Message-ID: <19990126232114.AAA10955@p2350>

Hi,

----------
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> To: Unix Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM

> I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly
to
> give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
> He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
> b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases
onto
> the CD set.

That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that.
 
> I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
> via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
> recompensed for his work.

NO problem with that.
 
> However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to
see,
> and it will be added!

Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I only
wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part
of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing.

> P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
> a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.

I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are
my fault.
Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a
flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions.

Sorry about this.
emanuel

So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-))

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From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk  Wed Jan 27 09:46:16 1999
From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:46:16 +0000
Subject: Split of PUPS mail list??
In-Reply-To: <199901262244.JAA05790@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
References: <199901262244.JAA05790@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Nws0nOAIPlr2EwLA@falstaf.demon.co.uk>

In message <199901262244.JAA05790 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes
>All,
>       Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
>of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
>maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
>way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.
>
>Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
>post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
>
>Many thanks,
>
>       Warren
FWITW

I vote for a split, if only to make the filing easier.  If people feel
as strongly as some do about not wanting one of the lists then fine,
that makes it easier.

Something similar is in place at NetBSD if you want just notices, posts
on one type of OS or whatever.

Cheers

Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ    Old computers and radios always welcome

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan 27 10:14:00 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:00 +0100 (MET)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901262223.OAA13198@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990127010122.29540B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> Hi Johnny -

Hi there, Steven.

> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
> > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
> 
> 	I maintain the opposite.  VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
> 	VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen.  Since DEC
> 	is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
> 	the winner/driver.  Are Vaxen even being made any longer?  The ALPHA
> 	is what is driving Compaq/dec now.

Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)
Let's just say that VAXen are still being sold, as far as I know. VMS are
still being sold. However COMPAQ sure don't push for VAXen, so I expect
them to die soon. Alpha is the main target of VMS these days for sure. But
there still exists VAXen that no Unix can run, leaving only VMS. And also,
some stuff just isn't utilized that well under Ultrix, which means VMS is
the more developed, and supported OS.

While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
relying on a separate, manual program for it.

And let's not rack down on Ken Olsen and what he said/didn't say here. :-)

> > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
> > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
> > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
> 
> 	Hear hear!  PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
> 	although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have 
> 	their own forums though).  I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
> 	posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
> 	tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".

Me for one wouldn't mind, even if I think the correct forum would be
info-pdp11, but then again, people usually seem happy to just find *any*
forum for pdp-11 stuff.
I don't mind talking about V[0-7] here, even though they are older than
2.11BSD, but really, BSD[3,4] isn't what I'm in here for.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 27 10:40:23 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:40:23 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901270040.TAA03506@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:

> > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
                              ^^^^^^
> > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
> > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
>
> FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
> Only VMS does.

See the line of carets up there.

BTW, if someone with the hardware were willing to be a guinea pig, I would
readily add support for KA660 and KA670, making 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support even
MORE hardware than Ultrix in this particular area.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 27 10:41:17 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:41:17 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901270041.TAA03508@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:

> I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
> PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
> software license.

Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
compressed and uuencoded.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jan 27 10:35:41 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901270035.QAA13940@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> Johnny Billquist
> Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)

	Yeah, it could.  So enough said and (hopefully) it stops now.

> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,

	MSCP BBR is _hard_ and not documented well (or not documented at all).
	Come to think of it MSCP in general is difficult and not documented
	very well (Chris Torek's comments in the 'ra.c' driver are fun to
	read;)).

	Best solution I've found is to use a SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and let
	the adaptor do the BBR <g>

	Steven

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Wed Jan 27 11:38:19 1999
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <990126203819.2020009f@trailing-edge.com>

> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,

If you look at the commented sources for the DEC OS's, you'll see that
it took them several minor version releases in order to get bad block
replacement working passably.  And there still remain
situations that aren't handled well even in the best implementations.

Tim.

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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Wed Jan 27 05:12:31 1999
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03412@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500
References: <199901261944.OAA03412@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990127031231.H496@krdl.org.sg>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
> development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
> the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
> 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.

Great. I'm glad we have you around to follow this mission.

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041	Fax:   +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace		Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613			Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Wed Jan 27 05:16:53 1999
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03415@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500
References: <199901261944.OAA03415@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990127031653.I496@krdl.org.sg>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
> oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
> my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
> moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
> software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
> supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
> non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
> universally agreed to be unethical.

As I tried to explain earlier, nobody is actually doing that, not even attempting.
BSDI lives in the commercial world and they have been protecting their work against
other *commercial* use. On the *research* side, those same BSDI team members (again
citing Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick and possibly others) keep *actively* supporting
*BSD. There is no clash as such. People are *very* reasonable, especially when it
comes to open technology, they have been in that business for long and appreciate
it's value and impact.

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041	Fax:   +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace		Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613			Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Wed Jan 27 05:38:21 1999
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
In-Reply-To: <199901270041.TAA03508@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500
References: <199901270041.TAA03508@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990127033821.K496@krdl.org.sg>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
> of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
> copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
> an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
> compressed and uuencoded.

With a different tone and manner people at Compaq/DEC might actually be quite
willing to support archival of their work (which is protected by law) for the
purpose of tracking history. It never hurts to show curtesy and ask politely.
If I were you, especially as the maintainer of CSRG work, I'd certainly give
it a try ...

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041	Fax:   +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace		Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613			Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 12:51:07 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST)
Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour
Message-ID: <199901270251.NAA01515@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few
rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go...

1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to
   UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and
   their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the
   above.  It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However....

2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development,
   including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers
   should create a communications channel to target their own audience.
   For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd.

   To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus,
   quasijarus at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures.
   Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and
   announcements about this system can reach them.

   In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these 
   mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and
   announcements.

3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There
   have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no
   single `best' system.

4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone,
   then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number
   of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive.
   If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their
   list postings.

I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still
collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if
we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to
the list as it is now.

Thanks all,
	Warren

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From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca  Wed Jan 27 13:28:33 1999
From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:28:33 -0500
Subject: the contents of this mailing list
Message-ID: <199901270330.OAA20297@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

My two cents' worth on the latest fuss:

It seems premature to discuss splitting the list unless there is a concrete
proposal for how to split it, but I cannot think of a split that would solve
the present problem.  The real trouble right now is one or two people who
cannot resist waving their antlers around in public.  We could eliminate
them by declaring UNIX on anything but the PDP11 (and perhaps the PDP-7)
to be out of bounds, but unless we also refuse to talk about anything post-V7,
that is an artificial cutoff; there's a fair bit of shared code between
2.11BSD and 4BSD (wasn't that the point of 2.11 et al?).  There's also a
genuine link between PDP11 and VAX hardware (nearly all the pre-VAXBI
peripheral devices for a start).

More important than any of the above, I'd like to ask everyone to try to
keep their remarks civil and reasonably to-the-point (difficult though both
of those often are in e-mail), and to take conversations that are marginal
to the main purpose of the list to direct e-mail rather than broadcasting
everything to everyone no matter how peripheral.  (Which is not to say that
discussion of peripherals aren't relevant.)  For example, I had a handful
of comments both philosophical and technical on Michael Sokolov's recent
postings; they didn't strike me as of general interest, so I mailed them
directly to him.

To close with a reference nearer to ancient UNIX, I think it was Dennis who
once suggested that netnews would have had a much higher signal-to-noise ratio
if there had been no `followup' command, so it was easier to send e-mail
directly to the original poster than to make a fool of one's self in public.

Norman Wilson

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 13:38:45 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Split of PUPS mail list??
In-Reply-To: <19990127035054.L496@krdl.org.sg> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Jan 27, 1999  3:50:54 am"
Message-ID: <199901270338.OAA01601@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Joerg B. Micheel:
> > Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
> > post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
> 
> You don't mention a specific scheme to do the split.

No. I'll take suggestions, then summarise the suggestions and post them
next week.

	Warren

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Jan 27 13:42:44 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:42:44 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901270342.AA19227@world.std.com>


<Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is t
<establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision f

That is not the problem.  You are putting up the ROM contents off the cpu 
card and that is unreleased copyrighted code.

<Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcod
<updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragba
<DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. 

Then I expect you will get propper permissions or paperwork showing that 
they were grandfatherd.  In either case by not doing that your potentially 
liable( and involing others) in a copyright infingment suit.  Copyright is 
a legal issue.

<UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TM

Not an issue and that is not the rom image.

<The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and 
<to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
<upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmw
<upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff
<would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor V
<UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshootin
<support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.

Not true.  While Compaq/DEC may or may not supply products it is still 
their ownership.  Further I'd bet that through field service spares parts 
are still quite available.

Allison




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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Jan 27 13:43:07 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:43:07 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901270343.AA19561@world.std.com>


<What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the governme
<oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstr

The rom code for the KA650 is not public domain nor was it ever relased 
with public domain trimmings to anyone.  Calling it opression or anything 
else is a transparent attempt to evade the law.

<supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work o
<non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
<universally agreed to be unethical.

When applied to "freely copyable code" no problem.  Copyrighted firmware 
is not that.

Allison


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Jan 27 13:43:14 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:43:14 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901270343.AA19655@world.std.com>


<Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. The
<is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, co
<do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.

Then it might almst be as common as VMS... not likely.  Ultrix never drive 
every VAX nor was it as robust as VMS.  It will still not be a 24x7x365 OS 
of any standing until proven so by use, not assertion.

Allison




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From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca  Wed Jan 27 14:32:49 1999
From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:32:49 -0500
Subject: UNIX robustness
Message-ID: <199901270434.PAA00279@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Allison Parent is probably correct that Ultrix doesn't have as impressive
a record of robustness as VMS, but there are certainly application-specific
cases where the system did pretty well.  The collection of MicroVAX II parts
I have at home mostly used to be the University of Toronto's backbone IP
routers, which ran an early Ultrix (I forget if it was 2.0 or 3.0).
Evidently most of these systems just ran and ran and ran, stopping only
for hardware failures.  (Probably mostly broken RD53 disks--most of the
disks that came in the parts collection were broken in one way or another.)
Although I am not a first-hand witness, the claim is that some of these
systems had uptimes as long as five years when they were finally decommissioned
in 1990 or 1991.

Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?

Norman Wilson

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 14:38:23 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX robustness
In-Reply-To: <199901270434.PAA00279@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 26, 1999 11:32:49 pm"
Message-ID: <199901270438.PAA01836@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?
> Norman Wilson

Only <200 days here for a PC-based system, usually brought down by
power failure.
	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jan 27 15:12:57 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: UNIX robustness
Message-ID: <199901270512.VAA15671@moe.2bsd.com>

	At least it's a different thread... ;-)

	I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
	the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
	and a beefier replacement system installed.  The original system
	was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
	never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years.  As time went on the 
	load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and 
	paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed.  A
	couple months after that the disk died ;-)

	Steven

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jan 27 15:15:08 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Addendum to Unix robustness
Message-ID: <199901270515.VAA15701@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

	I've personally seen/run a PDP-11/44 under 2.11BSD for 1 year without 
	reboooting.  Then the power went out and spoiled the streak.  Started
	over and was a couple months into the new uptime and the RA81 died.
	Sigh.

	Steven

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From djenner at halcyon.com  Wed Jan 27 23:23:58 1999
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:23:58 -0800
Subject: UNIX robustness
References: <199901270512.VAA15671@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <36AF136E.8FB4C233@halcyon.com>

I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
net from 1989-1993.  At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
power failure finally got it.

It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software.  The
system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots. 

Dave

"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
> 
>         At least it's a different thread... ;-)
> 
>         I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
>         the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
>         and a beefier replacement system installed.  The original system
>         was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
>         never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years.  As time went on the
>         load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
>         paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed.  A
>         couple months after that the disk died ;-)
> 
>         Steven

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From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca  Thu Jan 28 01:14:30 1999
From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <199901262238.JAA05749@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 27, 99 09:38:32 am
Message-ID: <199901271514.KAA30920@math.uwaterloo.ca>

Alas I don't know the precise details, but I do remember that the
University of Waterloo had an explicit license (seperate from the UNIX
one) just for the *real* troff code.  When I say "real" I mean the code
that drove a real typesetting device etc. (in PDP-11 assembler I think). 
We had a highly modified copy in use for more than a decade I think,
driving successive generations of new typeset quality engines. I can
check with the fellow that really knows all this history and details
if someone is interested.  -- Ken

| In article by alejandro gonzalez:
| > 
| > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
| > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
| > the orginial distribution
| > 
| > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
| > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
| > 
| > Alex
| 
| All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
| Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
| they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
| Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.
| 
| 	Warren

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From jp at spektr.eu.org  Thu Jan 28 03:21:11 1999
From: jp at spektr.eu.org (Jorgen Pehrson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:21:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.9901271816460.25417-100000@spektr.eu.org>

Thor Lancelot Simon < tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>...or vi versus Emacs.

What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)

-- 
Jorgen Pehrson     (HP 9000/380, VAX2000, DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD 1.3))
jp at spektr.eu.org   (PDP11/73, PDP11/83, PDP11/83 (2.11BSD)), Intergraph 200
spektr.eu.org/~jp/ MicroVAX 3100 (NetBSD 1.3), VAXstation 4000/90 (VAX/VMS)


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From emu at ecubics.com  Thu Jan 28 03:41:15 1999
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:41:15 -0700
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350>

Hi Jorgen,

----------
> From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp at spektr.eu.org>
> To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
> Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:21 AM

> What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)

SURE !!!
I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
line printer console  ;-))

cheers,
emanuel


From mjenkins at carp.gbr.epa.gov  Thu Jan 28 08:08:49 1999
From: mjenkins at carp.gbr.epa.gov (Mike Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:08:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Snake Oil (was Re: 4.4BSD)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990127010122.29540B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <199901272208.QAA21721@carp.gbr.epa.gov>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com> wrote:

> 	I maintain the opposite.  VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
> 	VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen.  Since DEC

I got a whole different perspective on that Snake Oil thing after reading
"A Quarter Century of UNIX" by Peter Salus.  According to Armando Stettner
(DEC Ultrix Architect) Ken Olsen meant, "Much the way people were peddling
snake oil a century ago, now every vendor is hyping Unix as a cure for
everything".  He was only making a analogy but the statement was "taken
out of context".  Anyway, the book has been enjoyable.

Mike
P.S. Where is Armando now?  Is he still doing Unix stuff?

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Jan 28 09:10:55 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 +1030
Subject: UNIX robustness
In-Reply-To: <36AF136E.8FB4C233@halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 05:23:58AM -0800
References: <199901270512.VAA15671@moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <19990128094055.E66239@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 27 January 1999 at  5:23:58 -0800, David C. Jenner wrote:
> "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>>
>>         At least it's a different thread... ;-)
>>
>>         I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
>>         the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
>>         and a beefier replacement system installed.  The original system
>>         was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
>>         never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years.  As time went on the
>>         load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
>>         paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed.  A
>>         couple months after that the disk died ;-)
>
> I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
> honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
> net from 1989-1993.  At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
> power failure finally got it.
>
> It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
> factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software.  The
> system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
> usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
> Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
> for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots.

I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure.  Steveen
could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
died.  2.11BSD certainly does.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Jan 28 10:07:22 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: UNIX robustness
Message-ID: <199901280007.QAA27431@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> 
> I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure.  Steveen
> could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
> died.  2.11BSD certainly does.

	Well, it tries its darndest to do so.  If the system gets its
	knickers sufficiently twisted I've seen it hang part way thru
	printing the panic message.  'course then there are the self
	inflicted crashes where an errant driver scribbles all over memory,
	in which case you may not get a meaningful indication of what
	went wrong ;)

	Steven

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Thu Jan 28 10:11:56 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:11:56 +0100 (MET)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990128011036.2335D-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

> > What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> > or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
> 
> SURE !!!
> I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
> line printer console  ;-))

I have only one things to say to you guys; TECO.
(And besides, EMACS is just a bunch of macros for TECO, GNU-EMACS don't
even count... ;-)

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From djenner at halcyon.com  Thu Jan 28 13:24:31 1999
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:24:31 -0800
Subject: UNIX robustness
References: <199901270512.VAA15671@moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233@halcyon.com> <19990128094055.E66239@freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <36AFD86F.A25AFE2A@halcyon.com>

Yes, and it was almost 2 years between reboots.  Otherwise, they were
rather rare, and I can't remember why.  I have all the console logs
around somewhere under a pile, and if/when I uncover them, I'll look
through them to see what happened.  Maybe I'll suddenly report it here
in 6 months--after my next reboot, err, cleanup.

Dave

Greg Lehey wrote:
> 

> 
> I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure.  Steveen
> could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
> died.  2.11BSD certainly does.
> 
> Greg
> --
> See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
> finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From bdc at world.std.com  Thu Jan 28 18:05:26 1999
From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:26 -0800 (PDT)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990127235939.2520C-100000@world.std.com>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
> > at least, a waste of time.  But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
> > encourage you to do it, I suppose.
> 
> You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe,

"Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've
 commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic

-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!


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From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Fri Jan 29 03:54:42 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:54:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990127235939.2520C-100000@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990128095053.21935A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>



On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Brian D Chase wrote:

> "Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've
>  commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic

Yeah, what kind of sadistic, malicious bastards would create a *free*
version of unix, then port it to nearly every platform imaginable!!?!?
What could have been going through their twisted minds?

----------------------------------------------------------
"...and an eternity, my friend, is a long f*cking time..."





From mirian at xensei.com  Sat Jan 30 04:04:20 1999
From: mirian at xensei.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox)
Date: 29 Jan 1999 13:04:20 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST)"
References: <199901280007.QAA27431@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <m3g18u2bx7.fsf@mysticmayhem.com>

How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD?  I'm thinking
about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc.  I'd like to set up a
system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
show up in places like eBay.  Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?

--Mirian

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Sat Jan 30 04:45:43 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:45:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <m3g18u2bx7.fsf@mysticmayhem.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000@world.std.com>



On 29 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:

> How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD?  I'm thinking
> about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc.  I'd like to set up a
> system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
> Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
> show up in places like eBay.  Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
> use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?

These are of the same or similar performance level as MicrovaxIIs and do
run Ultrix(DEC version of BSD) fairly well.  The problems you will have
is that the largest internal disk is a RD54 (159mb) and hard to find.  You
can also add an external RD54 if you can find the box and cables for it.
Performance as a single user system is acceptable.  Note that
VAXstation3100, Microvax3100 system are also of the same class but off
3-10+ times the performance in a 4x18x16 inch case and they have SCSI
interface to disks allowing for much more common and larger disks.

I can't speak for anything else.  I generally run VMS on vaxen.

Allison


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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 30 05:22:49 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:22:49 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <199901291922.OAA04691@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian at xensei.com> wrote:

> How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD?  I'm thinking
> about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc.  I'd like to set up a
> system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
> Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
> show up in places like eBay.  Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
> use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?

Subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list using standard Majordomo commands and
post your question there. I'll answer it.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/


From pat at transarc.com  Sat Jan 30 06:28:52 1999
From: pat at transarc.com (Pat Barron)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:28:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000@smithfield.transarc.com>

As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it.  The
Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
though....).

4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.

--Pat.



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From allisonp at world.std.com  Sat Jan 30 07:06:28 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:06:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000@smithfield.transarc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129160049.19225A-100000@world.std.com>



On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Pat Barron wrote:

> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it.  The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).

The centronics is electrically scsi and uses the NCR scsi chip (5380) but
there is nothing in the boot-diagnostic rom that supports it save for the
TK50FA version that has an oddball device protocal.  If you boot from
floppy or RDxx disk and have a driver that supports VS200 scsi properly it
can be used for expansion.  There are however issues in that the hard disk
interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause
some performance degrdation.

The port however is not for centronis printer as dec used serial
interfaced printers.

 > 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
> 
> --Pat.

Tha is what the socalled qasijarius project is supposed to fix.

Allison



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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 30 07:26:58 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:26:58 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <199901292126.QAA04748@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Pat Barron <pat at transarc.com> wrote:

> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it.  The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).

Correct, except that since Ultrix is binary-only chainware, you would have to
disassemble and patch some of its kernel .o files in order to force is to
recognize SCSI disks. It uses the CPU code (a byte-sized number constructed
from the SID and SID extension longwords) to index into a table of pointers to
routines for different CPUs, and the routines that get called when the CPU is
KA410 (VS/MV 2000) don't bother to probe for SCSI disks. This means that any
SCSI disks you may have attached will be silently ignored, even though the
drivers are present and they would work if they weren't artificially blocked.

> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.

Adding BabyVAX support (with MFM, SCSI, LANCE, and everything) to
4.3BSD-Quasijarus is in my plans. For more information, subscribe to the
Quasijarus mailing list.

If you want to have something running now, you can either run Ultrix and learn
to live in binary-only chains, or you can construct a system consisting of the
Ultrix kernel and the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland. There is enough syscall
compatibility between 4.3BSD and Ultrix to make this possible.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Sat Jan 30 07:41:53 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000@smithfield.transarc.com>; from Pat Barron on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500
References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000@world.std.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000@smithfield.transarc.com>
Message-ID: <19990129164152.A3563@rek.tjls.com>

On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500, Pat Barron wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it.  The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
> 
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.

As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.  The
people who made it do so used the relevant source bits from Ultrix, I
think, so even with a 32V source license you're out of luck.

There is a reasonable alternative.  NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.  It will also run 4.3BSD
binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will.  I
ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
branched from 4.2, not 4.3.

SCSI on the 2000 is supposed to work pretty well, SCSI on some 3100 models
less so; the LANCE ethernet on the older boxes and the SGEC on the 4000/60
work; a few models support graphical console on a QDSS or equivalent.  For
the boxes where you're stuck with small RD series disks, shared libraries
may help a bit.

Hope this helps.

THor

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From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca  Sat Jan 30 08:07:36 1999
From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129160049.19225A-100000@world.std.com> from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Jan 29, 99 04:06:28 pm
Message-ID: <199901292207.RAA18899@math.uwaterloo.ca>

On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer.  You then have to
pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory.  I believe the Lance
chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.

-- Ken

> [...]  There are however issues in that the hard disk
> interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause
> some performance degrdation. [...]
> 
> Allison

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 30 08:49:42 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <199901292249.RAA04815@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.

4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
beautifully.

> There is a reasonable alternative.  NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.

A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
diskless peering-at toy.

4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
our team.

> It will also run 4.3BSD
> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will.  I
> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.

The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland
will run perfectly atop of an Ultrix kernel.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 30 08:52:00 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:52:00 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <199901292252.RAA04823@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:

> On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
> both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer.  You then have to
> pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory.  I believe the Lance
> chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.

Correct.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From A.F.R.Bain at dpmms.cam.ac.uk  Sat Jan 30 08:54:33 1999
From: A.F.R.Bain at dpmms.cam.ac.uk (Alan F R Bain)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:33 +0000
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 EST."
             <199901292249.RAA04815@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> 
Message-ID: <E106Mo6-0001es-00@moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk>

Michael Sokolov wrote:
>A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
>diskless peering-at toy.

I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that 
unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model.  I don't think PUPS
is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.

>4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
>this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
>our team.
>
>> It will also run 4.3BSD
>> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will.  I
>> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
>> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
>> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
>
>The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
>since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
>maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
>else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland

I don't feel that there is any need to be silly and pretentious
here; techinical arguments may be of interest, but `I'm right and
I know I am' arguments are just childish.

To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX;  Warren's
graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
(especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
etc.).  I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
in some of the details.


Alan Bain


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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 30 10:10:23 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:10:23 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <199901300010.TAA04883@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain at dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

> I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
> provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
> All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
> is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that 
> unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model.

How is this relevant to NetBSD/vax? Remember, architectures other than VAX do
not exist as far as I am concerned, so when I say "NetBSD", I always always
always mean NetBSD/vax.

> I don't think PUPS
> is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.

It is necessary, however, to protect the innocent novice users from falling
into the claws of that predator.

> To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
> history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
> and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
> It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
> the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX;  Warren's
> graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
> but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
> (especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
> etc.).  I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
> in some of the details.

First of all, this is absolutely irrelevant to the question of binary
compatibility between 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD, and Ultrix.

Second, the development didn't "split" into PDP-11 and VAX. Instead, the
MAINSTREAM UNIX system _CONVERTED_ from PDP-11 to VAX, and did so at AT&T,
before the torch was turned over to UC Berkeley. 2BSD was not mainstream UNIX.
In fact, it was not UNIX at all, since it didn't contain a kernel, only a
patchkit of userland enhancements. Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Sat Jan 30 10:50:36 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <199901292249.RAA04815@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500
References: <199901292249.RAA04815@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990129195036.A7942@rek.tjls.com>

On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> 
> > As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.
> 
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
> beautifully.
> 
> > There is a reasonable alternative.  NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> > and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.
> 
> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
> you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> diskless peering-at toy.

That's nonsense.  As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
in question.  It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.

Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
happen to disagree?

Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?

Thor

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jan 30 11:09:36 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:09:36 +1100 (EST)
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <19990129195036.A7942@rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jan 29, 1999  7:50:36 pm"
Message-ID: <199901300109.MAA09808@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> > diskless peering-at toy.
> 
> That's nonsense.  As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
> responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
> in question.  It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
> can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
> time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.
> 
> Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
> express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
> happen to disagree?
> 
> Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
> mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?
> Thor

Ok, this is a warning to anybody who posts a reply to the thread above
in the mailing list. If you say something which is religious, zealous
or inflammatory, then I will issue a warning to you in the list. 2nd
time I issue a warning, I will start to moderate your postings.

This whole issue is like Linux vs. FreeBSD. The BEST answer to the
question: which is the best? is to get the user to try both out, and
they can make their own choice. As several people have explained, the
choice is a combination of technical issues AND aesthetics. And we all
have different tastes.

So respect each others tastes, and don't hassle them.

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jan 30 11:21:28 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Is 2.xBSD `approved'?
In-Reply-To: <199901300010.TAA04883@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 29, 1999  7:10:23 pm"
Message-ID: <199901300121.MAA09827@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
> opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
> really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
>2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
> I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.

I hate to say this, but 2.xBSD, where x was 8, 9 and 10, was developed with
the involvement of several people at the CSRG, e.g Keith Bostic, Mike Karels,
Kirk McKusick. I'm sure Steven Schultz could give me some more names.

Although 2.xBSD is definitely not the branch which got the most attention,
I wouldn't say it was unauthorised, unapproved nor unblessed.

Actually, given that the CSRG is now disbanded, it is fair to say that
both 2.11BSD and 4.3-Quasijarus are in exactly the same boat: side branches
of the main BSD development, maintained by individuals who were not members
of the original CSRG.

Now, let us return to the more important issue of helping each other out,
rather than getting at each other. All UNIXes are worthy topics, and do
not deserve ridicule.

	Warren

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From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca  Sun Jan 31 01:38:44 1999
From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:38:44 -0500
Subject: Old UNIX file system formats
Message-ID: <199901301539.CAA20265@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

I've assembled some notes from old manuals and other sources
on the formats used for on-disk file systems through the
Seventh Edition:

http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html

Additional notes, comments on style, and whatnot are welcome.
(It may be sensible to send anything in the last two categories
directly to me, rather than to the whole list.)


From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca  Fri Jan  1 10:20:11 1999
From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:20:11 +73900 (EST)
Subject: Old UNIX file system formats
In-Reply-To: <199901301539.CAA20265@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at Jan 30, 99 10:38:44 am
Message-ID: <199902010020.TAA29097@math.uwaterloo.ca>

I didn't see mention of the flag "HUGE" WRT the V6 file format.
Now I may be being mislead from my memory of Venix 1.x which is
a derivative of V6 (while Venix 2.x is SysIII I think).  If the
HUGE bit is set in the i-node, then and only then is the 8th
index pointer treated as the indirection variety.  Thus 8 block
or less files I think are directly indexed.  -- Ken

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From agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu  Fri Jan  1 09:46:16 1999
From: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:46:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Bob Supnik Emulator and V6
In-Reply-To: <368A5145.BE11CED3@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9812311838460.20487-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>


Hi, I am very new to the Old Editions of Unix and PDP. I got licensed
recently, and I have been using the Binary Distrubutions of V6 and V7.

I am having trouble unpacking the v6.tape on Bob Supnik's Emulator. 

In the v6 installation guide it says to key in the

012700
172526
010040
012740
060003
000777


Using the Emulator, I deposit the instructions into 100000.

I attach the Tape and Disk using this:
> att tm0 v6.tape
> att rk0 v6root

I then run the instructions:
> run 100000

The Computer hangs, I break out of it. Then I type:
> boot tm0

It gives me a `=` prompt..

The Installation guide tells me to type:
> tmrk.

The emulator just freezes after this.

This may sound like a easy question, but I am very new to this.


Any help or pointers on getting UNIX V6 up and running on my Emulator
would be very helpful.

Thanks.

*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu
*********************************




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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Fri Jan  1 09:53:07 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 1999 10:53:07 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Bob Supnik Emulator and V6
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9812311838460.20487-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Dec 31, 98 06:46:16 pm"
Message-ID: <199812312353.KAA25121@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> Any help or pointers on getting UNIX V6 up and running on my Emulator
> would be very helpful.
> Thanks.

Right at the bottom of the simh_doc.txt file, there are instructions
on how to boot the v6 image which comes with Bob Supnik's emulator.
That is the easiest way to get v6 up and running!

Cheers,
	Warren


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sat Jan  2 16:16:00 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1999 17:16:00 +1100 (EST)
Subject: New Apout Sim Version
Message-ID: <199901020616.RAA25768@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	Welcome to 1999, I hope you all had a good Christmas and New Year.
I've just released a new version of my Apout PDP-11 simulator at

	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/

The 6th/7th Edition stuff is untouched, but the emulator can now run
a significant number of binaries from 2.11BSD: /bin/sh, make, the C
compiler, most of /bin and /usr/bin. I've been able to rebuild both
ls and sh from the sources.

Although the emulated 2.11BSD environment isn't complete, its enough
to be nearly useful!

Cheers all,
	Warren


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sun Jan  3 21:51:45 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 22:51:45 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Yet Another Apout Version
Message-ID: <199901031151.WAA26388@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Hmm,
	The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing,
and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop.
I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in:

	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/

Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was
able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of
the binaries in /bin.

I've even (nearly) been able to build the GENERIC 2.11BSD kernel
in /sys/GENERIC, but I get:

# make
   ....
ld -X -i -o unix scb.o  mch_backup.o mch_click.o mch_copy.o .....
sys_process.o  syscalls.o ufs_mount.o -Z hk.o init_main.o kern_prot.o
tty_pty.o quota_kern.o quota_subr.o  quota_ufs.o vm_swp.o vm_swap.o
vm_proc.o -Z ht.o tm.o ts.o -Z tmscp.o tmscpdump.o  -Z rl.o
mch_fpsim.o ingreslock.o ufs_disksubr.o -Z rx.o kern_sysctl.o
vm_sched.o vm_text.o -Z kern_pdp.o kern_xxx.o ufs_syscalls2.o mem.o
ufs_subr.o rk.o sys_pipe.o  kern_sig2.o toy.o subr_log.o -Z  -Z
-Z   -Z  -Z  -Z  -Y  vers.o -lkern param.o
Undefined:
_proc
_file
_text
*** Exit 1

Stop.
# ls -l unix
-rw-------  1 root       195480 Jan  3 03:41 unix

Steven, any ideas as to the problem? I had to do two operations manually
(using 32-bit native tools):

sh ../conf/newvers.sh
/bin/ed - param.s < ../conf/:comm-to-bss

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From msokolov at harrier.Uznet.NET  Mon Jan  4 03:16:23 1999
From: msokolov at harrier.Uznet.NET (Michael Sokolov)
Date: 3 Jan 1999   17:16:23 GMT
Subject: Time machine
Message-ID: <199901031716.WAA04342@harrier.Uznet.NET>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

Have you ever wished to have a time machine? Have you ever wished to travel
back to 1988, to the time when 4.3BSD-Tahoe was the latest release and the SCCS
deltas corresponding to it were the most recent deltas? Well, at least I do.

Although unfortunately real time travel is still limited to the X-Files, I have
come up with a pretty good approximation, a time machine program. This program
turns the Universe clock backwards on a given SCCS file, pruning it down to a
given delta, specified either as an SID or as a delta serial number. The bulk
of the work is done by the SCCS rmdel command. This command, however, can only
delete one delta at a time and still leaves an audit trail in the delta table.
My package consists of a shell script and two C programs that compensate these
deficiencies. The result is that the SCCS file becomes byte-for-byte identical
to the one that existed at the time you have chosen, just like with a real time
machine!

I include this package below as a uuencoded gzipped tarball. See the README
file inside.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at harrier.Uznet.NET

Enclosure: uuencoded tmachine.tar.gz:

begin 644 tmachine.tar.gz
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$`$```/Z_
`
end


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From mirian at xensei.com  Mon Jan  4 05:20:02 1999
From: mirian at xensei.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox)
Date: 03 Jan 1999 14:20:02 -0500
Subject: Ancient SunOS source
In-Reply-To: "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys"'s message of "Wed, 16 Dec 1998 10:20:18 -0500 (EST)"
References: <199812161520.KAA28340@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <m31zlccgf1.fsf@trantor.cosmic.com>

Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence.  I'm
curious as to what progress has been made on that.  I'm
enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.

-- 
Mirian Crzig Lennox                                Systems Anarchist
          "There's a New World Order coming every minute.
                      Make mine extra cheese."


From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Mon Jan  4 07:48:20 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:48:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ancient SunOS source
In-Reply-To: <m31zlccgf1.fsf@trantor.cosmic.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103134337.31034A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>



On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:

> Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
> sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence.  I'm
> curious as to what progress has been made on that.  I'm
> enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
> SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.

Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?


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From mirian at xensei.com  Mon Jan  4 07:52:16 1999
From: mirian at xensei.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox)
Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500
Subject: Ancient SunOS source
In-Reply-To: "Erin W. Corliss"'s message of "Sun, 3 Jan 1999 13:48:20 -0800 (PST)"
References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103134337.31034A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>
Message-ID: <m3lnjk81nz.fsf@trantor.cosmic.com>

"Erin W. Corliss" <erin at coffee.corliss.net> writes:

> On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> 
> > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
> > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence.  I'm
> > curious as to what progress has been made on that.  I'm
> > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
> > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
> 
> Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?

Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure...  I'm just looking
forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS.
Call it nostalgia, or something like that.  :)

-- 
Mirian Crzig Lennox                                Systems Anarchist
          "There's a New World Order coming every minute.
                      Make mine extra cheese."

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From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Mon Jan  4 08:11:30 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 14:11:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990103140148.31189A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>


Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify
the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52
drive like an array of six RL drives?

I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two
drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar...  I
assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble
or modify the kernel, tho.

I also recently solved the disk image dilemma -- I made a utility in
Visual Basic that lets you examine, import, and export files on various
disk images.  The disk-specific parts are in interchangeable ActiveX
modules -- right now I only have code for RK06 disk images with Unix 6 or
RSTS file systems, but the model is easily expandable to any
drive/filesystem combination.  I'll put it on my web site if anyone's
interested...



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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Jan  4 09:18:07 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 09:48:07 +1030
Subject: Yet Another Apout Version
In-Reply-To: <199901031151.WAA26388@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Jan 03, 1999 at 10:51:45PM +1100
References: <199901031151.WAA26388@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19990104094807.X66110@freebie.lemis.com>

On Sunday,  3 January 1999 at 22:51:45 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm,
> 	The tarball of Apout that I put up for ftp had a file missing,
> and a serious bug which caused 2.11BSD ls -l to go into an infinite loop.
> I've removed this version and placed a new version of Apout in:
>
> 	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout/
>
> Things are looking good. With a small bit of manual help, I was
> able to run make in 2.11BSD /usr/src/bin, which rebuilds all of
> the binaries in /bin.

How long did it take, on what kind of machine?

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Jan  4 10:18:11 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 3 Jan 1999 16:18:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: ...
Message-ID: <199901040018.QAA18722@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin at coffee.corliss.net>
> 
> Anyone care to comment on the likelihood of someone being able to modify
> the kernel binary for Unix version 7 so that it treats a 60 megabyte RD52
> drive like an array of six RL drives?

	Not likely at all.  Completely different controllers - the only
	similarity between an RL controller and an MSCP (RQDX3 for example)
	controller lies in their both being Qbus cards and disks are attached
	to them.   The RL is about as smart as a rock - it can't even do
	spiral reads/writes (even the RK05 could do that), so there's code
	present to break transfers up into multiple pieces if cylinder and side
	boundaries are crossed.  Also the RL is a "traditional" device in
	that the driver calculates sector/track/cylinder and stuffs those
	values into registers.  With MSCP you have to build command and response
	ring buffers, fill in a packet with rather badly documented values,
	and then poke the controller to go look for its new packet.  The
	geometry calculations are done in the controller not the driver.
	The only concept of geometry that MSCP drivers have is "how many
	sectors does the drive have" (and even then that value's only used to
	pretty print something when the drive is first accessed) - somewhat 
	like SCSI in that aspect.

	Then too the RD52 is 30MB (sect/trak = 18, tracks/cyl = 7, cyl = 480).
	The RD53 is ~70mb and the RD54 is ~159mb.

	It'd be easier to add an MSCP driver to V7 than it would be
	to try and do binary edits on the RL driver to support non-RL devices.
	Ick. 

> I looked at the device-specific assembly code in boot blocks for the two
> drives and it seems that besides the geometry they're pretty similar...  I

	They're about as different as can be.  I think you were lulled into
	thinking they're similar by the fact that most of the bootblock is
	"boiler plate" (the filesystem search code to look for /boot).  The
	part that deals with the device is small but quite dissimilar.

	The bootblock is the least/smallest part of the problem.  All the boot-
	block does is load /boot - and that's where you need a more fullfeatured
	(but still not as full as the kernel's) driver.  Then once there's
	a standalone driver for a device in /boot then, and only then, does
	the kernel become involved (at which time a full driver is needed).

> assume, of course, that the binary license doesn't allow me to disassemble
> or modify the kernel, tho.

	The A.U. license provides full up source - no need to disassemble 
	anything - that can be modified to whatever extent is desired.  That
	won't solve the problem of getting a MSCP driver into V7 unless one
	can do the development work using a simulator.

	Steven Schultz

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From alyosha at vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM  Tue Jan  5 05:47:03 1999
From: alyosha at vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM (Billy Stivers)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 11:47:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Ancient SunOS source
Message-ID: <199901041947.LAA05888@vrytekai.Corp.Sun.COM>

These efforts aren't dead. :) They just took vacation with me, for the
last week and a half or so.  I'll try to report some news sometime during
the following week or two, though with the mess of work that popped
up in my absence, I'm not sure whether I'd be that optimistic. :/

	--Billy
	
>From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian at xensei.com>
>To: "Erin W. Corliss" <erin at coffee.corliss.net>
>Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au
>Subject: Re: Ancient SunOS source
>Original-Sender: mirian at xensei.com
>Date: 03 Jan 1999 16:52:16 -0500
>
>"Erin W. Corliss" <erin at coffee.corliss.net> writes:
>
>> On 3 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
>> 
>> > Last month, there was some discussion about getting Sun to release the
>> > sources to old SunOS 4.1 under the Ancient UNIX source licence.  I'm
>> > curious as to what progress has been made on that.  I'm
>> > enthusiastically looking forward to hopefully being able to run
>> > SunOS-4.1.3 with full source on an old Sun 3/80.
>> 
>> Have you tried the Sun 3 port of NetBSD?
>
>Oh, NetBSD is a very nice Berkeley UNIX, to sure...  I'm just looking
>forward to being able to play around with good olde-fashioned SunOS.
>Call it nostalgia, or something like that.  :)
>
>-- 
>Mirian Crzig Lennox                                Systems Anarchist
>          "There's a New World Order coming every minute.
>                      Make mine extra cheese."

----------------------------------------------------------------------
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a
"Yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble.
                -- Mahatma Gandhi



From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan  5 14:42:15 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 15:42:15 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <199901050442.PAA10444@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

I've got a questions that's been niggling me, and perhaps someone might
be able to answer it.

The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:

/* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
/*
 * C Shell
 *
 * Bill Joy, UC Berkeley
 * October, 1978
 */

But my memory tells me that, back in the late 80s, people were saying
that the sources to csh were not freely available. And in the tcsh FAQ
(taken from tcsh version 6.00), I see:

	4.  Where can I get csh sources? 

	Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2
	source licence or better, you are stuck.

So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??

Many thanks in advance!

	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jan  5 15:26:35 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:26:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <199901050526.VAA19409@moe.2bsd.com>

Warren -

> The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:

> /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
> /*
>  * C Shell
>  *
>  * Bill Joy, UC Berkeley
>  * October, 1978
>  */
> 	Csh sources are not public domain. If you do not have an AT&T V3.2
> 	source licence or better, you are stuck.
> 
> So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??

	It is not that they "became" restricted.  They always "were" restricted
	because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
	sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh).  All UNIX sources were, up until 
	you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.

	For a long time you either had a multi-kilodollar source license
	or you didn't run UNIX at all.  The binary distributions came a bit
	later.  Initially when 'csh' was being written you had to have a
	source license.  Typically you'd pay (if memory serves) $25k or so
	(quite a chunk of cash in 1979) for a WesternElectric license, park
	the tapes in a rack and send a copy of the license and a check for a 
	few hundred dollars off to UCB to get the software you really intended 
	to run ;)

	You'll note that the copyright lacks the "may be redistributed ..."
	clauses that we typically associate with UCB software.  The famous
	UCB style of copyright ("copyrighted but redistributable") came
	later.

	Steven

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan  5 15:30:25 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:30:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050526.VAA19409@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999  9:26:35 pm"
Message-ID: <199901050530.QAA11231@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> Warren -
> 
> > The csh was first released in 2bsd, and came with the copyright notice:
> > /* Copyright (c) 1979 Regents of the University of California */
> > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
> 
> 	It is not that they "became" restricted.  They always "were" restricted
> 	because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
> 	sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh).  All UNIX sources were, up until 
> 	you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
> 
> 	Steven

I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with
AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and
the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination.

What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?

Thanks!
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan  5 15:50:06 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:50:06 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050530.QAA11231@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Warren Toomey at "Jan 5, 1999  4:30:25 pm"
Message-ID: <199901050550.QAA11350@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Warren Toomey:
> In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> > > So, can anybody tell me if, when and how did the sources to csh become
> > > restricted, or if not, how this urban legend arose??
> > 
> > 	It is not that they "became" restricted.  They always "were" restricted
> > 	because they were derived from the original Bell Labs (later AT&T)
> > 	sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh).  All UNIX sources were, up until 
> > 	you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.
> > 
> > 	Steven

Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it
is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the
Bourne shell in 7th Edition.

Hmm, I'll have to go and update my UNIX family tree now.

	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jan  5 15:57:01 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 21:57:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <199901050557.VAA19580@moe.2bsd.com>

Warren -

> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> I didn't know that any of the sources in 1979 2bsd were contaminated with
> AT&T sources. I'll go and do a line comparison between V6 sh, V7 sh and

	Indeed they were.  ALL sources were considered "contaminated" or
	restricted - that's why for years and years the only 2.x (and 4.x) BSD
	sites were universities or other companies that had source licenses.

> the 2bsd csh, and see if I can find any signs of contamination.
> 
> What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?

	Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves.

	A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
	contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
	but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
	(is?) contaminated.  Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software
	had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over.  I 
	grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the 
	"sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example.  But the mainline
	applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed).
	I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin>

	That's why the SCO "Ancient Unix" license is such a milestone event and
	is so important (perhaps more so than some folks realize).

	Up until this point you had to have a US$100K budget to gain access
	to the software we can legally obtain for $100 (no 'K') now.

	Steven

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan  5 16:01:49 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:01:49 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Contaminated srcs
In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999  9:57: 1 pm"
Message-ID: <199901050601.RAA11467@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> 	A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
> 	contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
> 	but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
> 	(is?) contaminated.  Alas by the time 4.4-Lite came out the software
> 	had bloated so much that very little of it can be ported over.  I 
> 	grabbed a few ideas and pieces out of the kernel - that's where the 
> 	"sysctl" stuff in 2.11 came from for example.  But the mainline
> 	applications are GNU based (megabytes and megabytes of memory assumed).
> 	I'd like to see someone getting GCC to run natively on a PDP-11! <grin>
> 
> 	Steven

Just a thought: much of the stuff in 16-bit Minix was written by people
on Usenet and donated to Minix. The core stuff of course is owned by
Prentice-Hall, but there are some freely-available programs.

	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jan  5 16:09:48 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:09:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <199901050609.WAA19671@moe.2bsd.com>

Warren -

	Quite a busy night, eh?

> > > 	sources (code borrowed from /bin/sh).  All UNIX sources were, up until 
> > > 	you negotiated the deal with SCO, restricted.

	It might also be a good time to clarify that the sources are still
	'restricted'.  Legally we can share the sources only with other
	license holders.  However the cost of obtaining the license is vastly
	more affordable now than in a previous era.

> Steven is right. An investigation into the csh from 2bsd shows that it
> is derived from the Mashey shell in 6th Edition UNIX, but not from the
> Bourne shell in 7th Edition.

	Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell?  Perhaps not
	completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away).

	Steven

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan  5 16:13:39 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:13:39 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050609.WAA19671@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 1999 10: 9:48 pm"
Message-ID: <199901050613.RAA11557@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Steven M. Schultz:
> 	Hmmm, didn't the V7 shell borrow from the V6 shell?  Perhaps not
> 	completely "based on" (as in starting from a copy and editing away).
> 	Steven

No, from what I heard Bourne nearly started from scratch. I did have
a copy of some old Usenet news from John Mashey about the v6 shell; I'll
try to dig it up.

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jan  5 16:12:41 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:42:41 +1030
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050557.VAA19580@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 09:57:01PM -0800
References: <199901050557.VAA19580@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <19990105164241.E78349@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday,  4 January 1999 at 21:57:01 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
>> What else in the original 2bsd is contaminated?
>
> 	Anything that I (or other contributors) didn't write ourselves.
>
> 	A good case can be made that stuff ported from 4.4-Lite is not
> 	contaminated (because 4.4-Lite had the legal blessings of AT&T)
> 	but I was told at one time anything based on the Net-2 stuff could be
> 	(is?) contaminated.

There has been a lot of confusion on this point.  Well, maybe
``disagreement'' would be a better word.  Obviously Net-2 contained
almost only stuff written by contributors, though there was, indeed,
some code which had obviously grown out of Seventh Edition code.  I
think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
lawsuit.  I took a look at one (kern_clock.c?), and confirmed that
yes, it looked as if it was derived rather than written from scratch.
On the other hand, there was nothing which AT&T (or the opponent of
the week) could claim to be trade secrets.  And IMO none of this could
have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which
were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jan  5 16:45:35 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1999 22:45:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
Message-ID: <199901050645.WAA19977@moe.2bsd.com>

Greg -

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> 
> There has been a lot of confusion on this point.  Well, maybe
> ``disagreement'' would be a better word.  Obviously Net-2 contained

	Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit.  Of course said confusion
	does lead to disagreement eventually ;)

> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the

	I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11.  It's a fairly
	small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
	settlement I understand).  Without a list of files the fear (at the
	time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
	of some work from the forbidden files.  Since you didn't know what
	files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
	couldn't use.

> the week) could claim to be trade secrets.  And IMO none of this could
> have been construed to mean that people couldn't use the sources which
> were indisputably completely written by UCB and its contributors.

	I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))...  That's
	how you and I (nonlawyer types) think.  The sentiment at the time
	was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was
	a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2.

	The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives
	(FreeBSD for example) exist.  That ready availability may have been 
	a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original" 
	sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available").

	Steven

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jan  5 17:16:39 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 17:46:39 +1030
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Mon, Jan 04, 1999 at 10:45:35PM -0800
References: <199901050645.WAA19977@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <19990105174639.G78349@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday,  4 January 1999 at 22:45:35 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Greg -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
>>
>> There has been a lot of confusion on this point.  Well, maybe
>> ``disagreement'' would be a better word.  Obviously Net-2 contained
>
> 	Hmmm, I think `confusion' is a better fit.  Of course said confusion
> 	does lead to disagreement eventually ;)

We can agree (or is that defuse?) about that.

>> think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
>
> 	I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11.  It's a fairly
> 	small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
> 	settlement I understand).  Without a list of files the fear (at the
> 	time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
> 	of some work from the forbidden files.  Since you didn't know what
> 	files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
> 	couldn't use.

Well, here's an extract from BSDI's announcement dated 8 Feb 1994:

> This broadcast message addresses many of the questions that have arrived
> in my mailbox in the last few days.
>
> Q:  After this lawsuit resolution, is BSDI still in business?
> A:  You bet.  And we're shipping 1.1 early next week.
>
> Q:  The press release was unclear, do I get to keep my current copy
>    of BSD/386?
> A:  The answer is yes!  BSDI is not recalling prior versions.
>    Any USA domestic customer whose support was valid through December,
>    1993 will be shipped the new V1.1 release.  I will be mailing a paper
>    letter to each USA domestic customer detailing their service contract
>    status and verifying the V1.1 shipping address.
>
> Q:  What's all this about `binary-only files'?  Will BSDI continue to
>    ship source code?
> A:  For Version 1.1 only, BSDI will ship the following kernel files
>    in binary format:
>
>	kern/init_main.c	kern/subr_rmap.c	ufs/ufs_bmap.c
>	kern/kern_clock.c	kern/sys_generic.c	ufs/ufs_disksubr.c
>	kern/kern_exit.c	kern/sys_process.c	ufs/ufs_inode.c
>	kern/kern_physio.c	kern/tty.c		ufs/ufs_vnops.c
>	kern/kern_sig.c		kern/tty_subr.c
>	kern/kern_synch.c	kern/vfs_syscalls.c

OK, so it was 16, not 13.  And yes, they didn't say that these were
the ones, but I did look at one and saw the similarities.

> Q:  I noticed your signature changed.  Did you get promoted?
> A:  Yes, we now have a full-time president.  Me!
>
>					Rob Kolstad
>					President, BSDI

Well, some things just keep changing.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Wed Jan  6 01:24:00 1999
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:24:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Why is csh `restricted'?
In-Reply-To: <199901050645.WAA19977@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Jan 4, 99 10:45:35 pm"
Message-ID: <199901051524.KAA27132@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> > think somebody mentioned something like 13 files in the context of the
> 
> 	I'd heard it was 7 files at one time, then 11.  It's a fairly
> 	small number _but_ the exact list was never disclosed (part of the
> 	settlement I understand).  Without a list of files the fear (at the
> 	time) was that "the enemy" could come after you claiming derivation
> 	of some work from the forbidden files.  Since you didn't know what
> 	files those were it was hard (impossible) to know what you could or
> 	couldn't use.

INet Dunce Cap firmly attached, in case my greymatters are vaporware....

I though I remembered seeing in one of the varieties of the 386BSD-0.0,
386BSD-0.1, FreeBSD-1.1, FreeBSD-1.1.5.1 (don't ask where, because I
really don't remember exactly), a subtree with a README and the original
7 files (yes, I counted them and it was 7).  Now, that makes me want to
backtrack to find that and see what exactly was different.  Vague memory
suggests it may have been in the 1.1.5.1 suite, since that was about the
time of the great territorial Unix Wars of old......

> 	I'm not a lawyer (and don't even play one on the Net;))...  That's
> 	how you and I (nonlawyer types) think.  The sentiment at the time
> 	was that up until 4.4-Lite was declared "uncontaminated" there was
> 	a danger of being legally targeted for using Net-1 and Net-2.

That was where the shift from the 1 release level to the 2 release level
came in.  Sadly, I was not really paying much attention to it all going
by on the net back then, since I was tied up in AIX boxen.  But, I did
run across that interesting subtree and those 7 magic files, one time.
Now, where DID I see them......

> 	The point is moot now today because all manner of alternatives
> 	(FreeBSD for example) exist.  That ready availability may have been 
> 	a big factor in SCO's allowing inexpensive access to the "original" 
> 	sources (albeit under 'license' rather than "freely available").
> 
> 	Steven

I am glad it all came to pass.  But, it is still fun to peruse the odd
bits here and there, and sometimes real history or insights pop up.

If all goes well, another minor bit of history may pop up shortly.
With the graces of Dennis Ritchie, I rekeyed in the V1 manuals in
roff source, in case anyone still has a model KSR37 sitting around
with a box full of paper, roff, and too much time to burn.  It is complete,
now, but needs some editorial fixings since the OCR came through rather
bad.  I made the suggestion that he allow us to put a copy in the UHS
archives.  It may appear on his web page when the editorial fixings
get done, and hopefully, minnie, too.

Bob


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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Wed Jan  6 01:41:47 1999
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 10:41:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
Message-ID: <199901051541.KAA27177@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme.  What can I
run with it?  It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....

Machine:  VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.

Tape Drive:  TK70

Hard Drive:  RA70

Boards:

SLOT     BOARD NUMBER   DESCRIPTION
----     ------------   ----------------------------------------------
1        KA650 -BA
2        MS650 -AA
3        MS650 -AA
4        DELQA -SA
5        VCB02
6        VCB02
7        VCB02
8        CXY08
9        TQK70
10       KDA50
11       KDA50
12       (empty)

What are the above boards, for reference?

What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?

How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?

I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
If not, I am at ground zero with it.

I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish
Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation.  I don't
have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard.
What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU?
Will a plain terminal work OK?

What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?

What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?

Any suggestions are appreciated.

Thanks

Bob Keys



From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan  6 06:07:11 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:07:11 +0100 (MET)
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
In-Reply-To: <199901051541.KAA27177@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990105205913.2044A-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:

> OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme.  What can I
> run with it?  It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....

Smile. It's a decent machine.

> Machine:  VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.
> 
> Tape Drive:  TK70
> 
> Hard Drive:  RA70
> 
> Boards:
> 
> SLOT     BOARD NUMBER   DESCRIPTION
> ----     ------------   ----------------------------------------------
> 1        KA650 -BA

CPU

> 2        MS650 -AA
> 3        MS650 -AA

Both are memory boards. Don't know for sure how much. 8 or 16 megs apiece,
I'd guess.

> 4        DELQA -SA

Ethernet.

> 5        VCB02
> 6        VCB02
> 7        VCB02

Sounds like a graphic subsystem.

> 8        CXY08

Plotter interface?

> 9        TQK70

Controller for the TK70 tape drive.

> 10       KDA50
> 11       KDA50

Controller for the RA70 disk. (The controller can have up to four disks
attached).

> What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?

CPU and memory minimum.
I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the
peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the
middle.

> How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?

Turn on the power.

> I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
> a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
> If not, I am at ground zero with it.

It's a pretty easy machine to play around with.

> I am assuming it will have to be run headless, via an old VT-52ish
> Zenith terminal I have, or a Kermit with VT-100 emulation.  I don't
> have the main color monitor for it, or the mouse and keyboard.
> What is the pinout of the silly MMJ connector on the CPU?
> Will a plain terminal work OK?

Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.

> What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?

Protocols? That's software!
As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!

> What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?

I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)

> Any suggestions are appreciated.

Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
You can netboot it to get started.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Wed Jan  6 07:47:55 1999
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 16:47:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990105205913.2044A-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Jan 5, 99 09:07:11 pm"
Message-ID: <199901052147.QAA28061@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> 
> > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme.  What can I
> > run with it?  It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
> 
> Smile. It's a decent machine.

I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent!

> > Hard Drive:  RA70

What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our
play purposes.  Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might
want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too
choosy.  A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box.  A pair of
2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server.

> > What boards are needed to bring up the machine minimally and test it out?
> 
> CPU and memory minimum.
> I'd recommend to remove the VCB02 and CXY08, since you don't have the
> peripherials. Move all other cards up to delete the empty space in the
> middle.

OK.  What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open?
Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes?

> > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
> 
> Turn on the power.

I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything
strange in the callup from a dumb terminal.  Someone mentioned setting
a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU?

> > I am working with the original owner of the beast to see if he may have
> > a box of odd manuals and hopefully tapes still in storage somewhere.
> > If not, I am at ground zero with it.
> 
> It's a pretty easy machine to play around with.

I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there
were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them.
He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes.  If they turn out to be
unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good
boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps.  If they are, indeed Ultrix,
would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such?
I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds
of things, as long as they don't get too strange.  I don't think I
would like a VMS.

> Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
> The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
> RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
> know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.

Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end,
an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter.  Would that be usable
for a console or is that some kind of printer cable?  He thought it was
plain serial, but was not sure.

> > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
> 
> Protocols? That's software!
> As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
> the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!

Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque.
That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew 
which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring
everything, instead.  Software or non-shake protocol always worked,
if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end.  One of my friends said that
DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking
for sure.

> > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
> 
> I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)

I must rub the right rabbit's food today.  Another friend gave me a DEC dongle
box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?).  That is a good
find, or the right find, perhaps?
 
> > Any suggestions are appreciated.
> 
> Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
> You can netboot it to get started.

My problem is getting it up to a network.  My home net is mostly down
or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time.
Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes.  Proper
netbooting on them is a bit wierd.

I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere.
That may be the easiest thing to do, practically.

Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common
denominator boot when all else may fail.  That way, everything is covered.

What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or
backplane?  I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it,
if possible.  Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting
the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose?

> 	Johnny

Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}....
Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight.  Now to feed the
Reddy Kilowatt meter man.  I hear these VAXen things make him very
happy.

Bob Keys


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan  6 08:33:57 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST)
Subject: V8's roots?
Message-ID: <199901052233.JAA12801@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Just got this email from a friend...

----- Forwarded message from David Blackman -----

Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram]
You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but
i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD
version, probably 4.1.

----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman -----

Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis.

Ta,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan  6 10:37:10 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 11:37:10 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Apout: new version + freeze
Message-ID: <199901060037.LAA15385@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	I've put yet a new version of the Apout PDP-11 a.out simulator in

		ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/pub/PDP-11/Sims/Apout

and now I'm going to stop working on it for a while. This means you won't
get these annoying emails any more :-)

Current version is apout2.2alpha6. The latest changes are:

	+ Runs 2.11BSD binaries, including overlay binaries
	+ Runs shell scripts
	+ Can exec native binaries as well as PDP-11 a.out binaries
	+ Has floating point operations
	+ Still emulates V5/V6/V7 UNIX binaries
	+ On a Pentium Pro 350MHz, compiles the 2.11BSD GENERIC kernel
	  in 4 minutes 16 seconds.
	+ Now uses u_int* throughout
	+ Finally, a man page exists

Enjoy!
	Warren

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan  6 12:54:31 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 03:54:31 +0100 (MET)
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
In-Reply-To: <199901052147.QAA28061@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990106033734.12114A-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:

> I am beginning to think my eleven buckeroos de realme were well spent!

I'd say so.

> What different SDI(?) drives will fit and work in the VAXstation, for our
> play purposes.  Someone mentioned a 1 gig and a 2 gig size that I might
> want to use instead of the RA70, although beggars like me can't be too
> choosy.  A pair of RA70's would make a fair minimal box.  A pair of
> 2 gig drives would make a very comfy box to use as the main home server.

Fit as in physically fit. The RA7x series will fit. However, only the RA70
as far as I know have a switch pack for setting unit numbers. Any other
type of drive will default to unit zero unless you have a proper front
panel.

All RA-drives will work however. Me I have one RA72 in the box, two RA90
and one RA92 lying on the floor. :-)

Also remember that VAX binaries are *smaller* than what you might be used
to see. This is a CISC.

> OK.  What should cover the blank space in the rack, or just leave it open?

If you have blank covers, put them there. It improves the air flow in the
box. But you should be able to run it as is.

> Any funky jumpers to set like on Sun VME backplanes?

Nope. Just keep al the cards next to each other.

> > > How should one fire it up the first time, without blowing it up?
> > 
> > Turn on the power.
> 
> I was thinking about boot sequences for roms or whatever, or anything
> strange in the callup from a dumb terminal.  Someone mentioned setting
> a break switch and a baud rate dial on the CPU?

Ok.
To boot the machine, try "B <device>", where disks are DUAx, tape is MUA0
and ethernet XNA0 (I think...)

If you open up the front you'll notice that the CPU fron panel cover has,
in addition to the connector for the console, a small display, a three
position dial switch and a two-position switch. If you look at the back of
the panel, you have thumbweel.
The thumbweel sets the baudrate for the console. There should be a sticker
beside it with the key.
The three-position switch selects power-up action. Language menu, boot or
eternal selftest. The two-position switch selects whether booting to
console prompt, or booting all the way with OS.

There are a number of commands you can give at the ">>>" prompt. Useful
is (among others) "SHOW ETHERNET" which tells your ethernet address.

> I did get a box from the previous owner a few minutes ago, and there
> were a dozen or so TK50 tapes that I need to sort out what is on them.

Try booting them.

> He though they were Ultrix and VMS tapes.  If they turn out to be
> unknowns, I can probably use them to get someone to write a good
> boot tape for a BSD flavor, perhaps.  If they are, indeed Ultrix,
> would that be better or worse than a 4.3BSD or NetBSD or such?

Ultrix is definitely not something you want to run. It's okay to have
around, but it's not that much fun. It's more or less a mix between 4.2
and 4.3.

> I have never run Ultrix, but I am comfy with 4.3BSD or NetBSD kinds
> of things, as long as they don't get too strange.  I don't think I
> would like a VMS.

VMS is nice. :-)

> > Plain terminal will do. In fact, it *expexts* to get a plain terminal.
> > The MMJ is a DEC thingie. The electrical levels are compatible with
> > RS-232. You can get a cable from DEC, or perhaps some other place. I also
> > know that the pinouts have been published on the net from tim to time.
> 
> Also, the guy gave me a cable with a DEC female DB25 adapter, a MMJ end,
> an RJ11 end, and a plain RS232 DB25 male adapter.  Would that be usable
> for a console or is that some kind of printer cable?  He thought it was
> plain serial, but was not sure.

The cable should be usable. If you have a VT220 or newer, the cable can be
used without any adapter at all.

> > > What kinds of printer can be hooked up to it, via what protocols?
> > 
> > Protocols? That's software!
> > As for electrically connecting it, that depends on what card you put in
> > the machine! Paralell or serial, you choose!
> 
> Well, I prefer serial, no-handshake printer lines on my old junkque.

Ah. Intelligent opinion. Since the CXY08 is a serial interface, that's
your answer. (If the CXY08 has a driver for the OS of your choise.)

> That is a carryover from my early CP/M days where one never knew 
> which RS232 cable to use, and I got quickly in the habit of 3-wiring
> everything, instead.  Software or non-shake protocol always worked,
> if 4/5, 4/8/20 were jumpered on each end.  One of my friends said that
> DEC did some strange protocols on serial lines, and I was just checking
> for sure.

DEC has very seldom done strange things. It's rather the other way
around...

Most likely your friend might have heard of DECs refusal to use modem
signals for handshake, since neither a computer, nor a printer is a modem.
(And by the book they are right, it's just that most other people like to
violate this fact. :-)
DEC always uses XON/XOFF.

> > > What is the best way to network it into my local home ethernet coax?
> > 
> > I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> > from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> > set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)
> 
> I must rub the right rabbit's food today.  Another friend gave me a DEC dongle
> box and cable that is an AUI to BNC transceiver (DECSTA?).  That is a good
> find, or the right find, perhaps?

Probably. I don't know offhand what the DEC transciever is called, but I
doubt there are any others with the right kind of looking connectors.

> > > Any suggestions are appreciated.
> > 
> > Yes. Boot NetBSD on it. Get 1.3.2, which works pretty fine on the machine.
> > You can netboot it to get started.
> 
> My problem is getting it up to a network.  My home net is mostly down
> or only running between whichever two boxes I can get up at the same time.
> Most are AIX/4.3BSD IBM RT-PC boxes or FreeBSD/AIX x86 boxes.  Proper
> netbooting on them is a bit wierd.

Well, it isn't *them* you are about to netboot, but the VAX. :-)

> I might could drag it into the office and netboot off the archives somewhere.
> That may be the easiest thing to do, practically.

Maybe.

> Most of the boxes I prefer to load via tape, if possible for a lowest common
> denominator boot when all else may fail.  That way, everything is covered.

Well, if you have VMS or Ultrix, you can write out tapes...

> What needs to be cleaned out around the cabinetry or power supplies or
> backplane?  I don't want to get dustbunny fireballs rolling out of it,
> if possible.  Is there anything I should look out for in preflighting
> the beast, over the usual blow it out with a vacuum cleaner or air hose?

Getting the dust out is always a Good Thing (tm).

If you are a hardware junkie, you'll start by disassembling the power
supply into small bits and check it out througly before reassembling it
and allowing it to feed the system. Me, I'd just power the thing on. :-)

> Anyway, toy VAXuser getting there little by little.....(:+}}....
> Maybe I will get the itch to fire it up tonight.  Now to feed the
> Reddy Kilowatt meter man.  I hear these VAXen things make him very
> happy.

Nah. A 3500 is a small thing. Try an 8650 instead. :-)

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From mckusick at mckusick.com  Wed Jan  6 15:46:58 1999
From: mckusick at mckusick.com (Kirk McKusick)
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 1999 21:46:58 -0800
Subject: V8's roots? 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100."
             <199901052233.JAA12801@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> 
Message-ID: <199901060547.VAA26800@flamingo.McKusick.COM>

	From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
	Subject: V8's roots?
	To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au (Unix Heritage Society)
	Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 09:33:57 +1100 (EST)
	Reply-To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
	Sender: owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au

	Just got this email from a friend...

	----- Forwarded message from David Blackman -----

	Just had a quick look at [Warren's Unix family tree diagram]
	You list Research V8 as successor to V7, which is true i guess, but
	i've seen several sources say most of the kernel was derived from a BSD
	version, probably 4.1.

	----- End of forwarded message from David Blackman -----

	Can anybody confirm or deny this? I suppose I should ask Dennis.

	Ta,
		Warren

There was a big infusion of 4.1BSD into the research group system
between V7 and V8. Dennis could give you more details.

	~Kirk

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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Thu Jan  7 04:07:15 1999
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 10:07:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
Message-ID: <199901061807.KAA24704@mpl.ucsd.edu>

> Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1999 21:07:11 +0100 (MET)
> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>

> On Tue, 5 Jan 1999, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> 
> > OK, Dummy here stuck his foot in his choppers an' won the bid on that
> > VAXen for the grand total of eleven buckeroos de realme.  What can I
> > run with it?  It was just too much fun to pass up, and it drew too many
> > chuckles from the PC crowd in the surplus warehouse....(:+}}....
> 
> I assume you have 10Base2, so get an AUI-cable to extend the connection
> from the DELQA to outside the box, get a 10Base2-transciever, and you're
> set. For other types of carriers, get the proper transciever! :-)

For short runs of AUI cable (a couple of feet) you can cheat by using
crimp-on IDC connectors and flat ribbon cable.  Frequently that is more
available than real AUI cables.

    carl

        carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Thu Jan  7 05:41:03 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:41:03 -0500
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
Message-ID: <199901061941.OAA03424@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:

> Machine:  VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.

Will run my latest OS release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, like a charm.

> Tape Drive:  TK70

Great! 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 bootstraps from TK70s beaufifully.

> Hard Drive:  RA70

Also great! You are incredibly lucky here that 4.3BSD-* already knows about
RA70 and thus you can install 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 on this disk directly even
when it's unlabeled. If you had third-party MSCP disks, you would have to
install Ultrix first to label the disk. This is due to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0's
inability to install on unknown unlabeled disks. This limitation will be lifted
in the next Quasijarus release, which I'm already working on.

> 1        KA650 -BA

A very nice CPU, rated at 2.8 VUPs. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 fully supports it
(better than CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases). KA650 support is present in the
GENERIC kernel, so it will Just Boot (tm).

The "-BA" part means that it has bit 1 set in the second longword of the EPROM,
causing DEC proprietary OSes to treat it as a "single-user" machine. Research
OSes like 4.3BSD-* ignore this bit. But if you do want to convert your machine
to "multiuser" status, clear bit 1, set bit 0, and recalculate the checksum
(you'll need an EPROM blaster). This will turn your CPU into a KA650-AA.

You also have the option of upgrading this CPU to a KA655 (3.8 VUPs) or KA660
(5 VUPs). KA655 is also fully supported by 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, and KA660
support is coming soon (100% guarrantee that I'll get it before NetBSD does).

> 2        MS650 -AA
> 3        MS650 -AA

-AA is a 8 MB board, so you have a total of 16 MB of RAM.

Note, though, that -AAs are old boards, and they work only with KA650 and
KA640. If you decide to upgrade to KA655 or KA660, you'll need either DEC
MS650-Bx or third-party MS650-compatible memory. These work with all KA650
series CPUs.

> 4        DELQA -SA

Ethernet. Fully supported by Berkeley UNIX since 4.3BSD.

> 5        VCB02
> 6        VCB02
> 7        VCB02

QDSS video. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 should support this (untested), but since you
don't have a VAXstation monitor or keyboard anyway, pull these three boards out
and move everything else to the right (you can't leave empty Q-bus slots in the
middle).

> 8        CXY08

8-line asynchronous multiplexer (8-port serial interface). Not sure if 4.3BSD-*
has a driver for it (I haven't touched this area and left it as it was in
CSRG's Tahoe release). It has some drivers for DEC asynchronous multiplexers,
but DEC made a lot of different ones, and I don't know where does CXY08 stand
with respect to everything else DEC has produced.

Ultrix supports it for sure, though.

> 9        TQK70

Controller for TK70.

> 10       KDA50
> 11       KDA50

Controller for RA70 (or any other SDI disks you may want to connect).

> Any suggestions are appreciated.

Hmm, it looks like you have already been brainwashed by one NutBSDist. Please
don't listen to him. Running NetBSD is conduct unbecoming a PUPS/TUHS member.
NetBSD is the worst OS a VAX can run. Its code is a total mess, and its
"developers" are incompetent morons (I know, I've been on their list for 6
months or so). They have no clue as to how to write VAX OSes, and their list of
supported hardware is as skinny as their brains. NetBSD is extremely flaky, and
it's extremely bloated.

My authoritative advice to you is to run 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, my latest release
made two weeks ago (I'm the maintainer of 4.3BSD-*). It comes with 100%
complete source code, and, picture this, the entire system with all binaries
_and full sources_ fits in 75 MB! It's absolutely True and Pure UNIX, nothing
can be better.

There is also Ultrix. No matter how much those losers insult it, it's one of
the best OSes in the Universe, second only to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. Despite what
some incompetent morons may say, it is not a "4.2/4.3 mix", it's 100% 4.3.
True, it has been interDIGITated by DEC, which makes it a little impure and
bloated (and binary-only), but otherwise it's OK. It is bigger than a
binary-only 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 installation, but certainly much smaller than
NutBSD. As for the DEC additions, just ignore them! Just because Ultrix
optionally supports Sun YP, Hesiod, and other crap doesn't mean that you have
to use it! In fact, it's already disabled by default! Just don't enable it,
that's all! When /etc/svc.conf selects "local,bind" for hosts and "local" for
everything else, Ultrix becomes indistinguishable from 4.3BSD! I can bet that
if I show you two VAXen, one running 4.3BSD and the other running Ultrix, you
won't be able to tell easily which is which.

Also some Ultrix-specific features are really nice. Take NFS, for example. I
will certainly add NFS to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus at some point. Also don't forget
that Ultrix runs on almost every VAX ever made. I often run Ultrix instead of
4.3BSD-* when the latter doesn't run on the hardware in question. In fact, this
is what Ultrix is best for: a fallback OS to replace 4.3BSD-* when it doesn't
support the hardware. Of course 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is the best OS in the
Universe, and you should always run it whenever possible, but when you can't
Ultrix is a very good fallback because it's so close.

But since you have a KA650, you don't have to worry about this, as
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 will run on it like a charm.

Best of luck with it. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 is in the PUPS archive in the
Distributions/4bsd/43quasi0.vax directory.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Thu Jan  7 05:41:03 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:41:03 -0500
Subject: OK I got this here VAXen thingie.... what is it?
Message-ID: <199901061941.OAA03424@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

"User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:

> Machine:  VAXstation 3500, no consoles or external boxes, only the tower.

Will run my latest OS release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, like a charm.

> Tape Drive:  TK70

Great! 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 bootstraps from TK70s beaufifully.

> Hard Drive:  RA70

Also great! You are incredibly lucky here that 4.3BSD-* already knows about
RA70 and thus you can install 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 on this disk directly even
when it's unlabeled. If you had third-party MSCP disks, you would have to
install Ultrix first to label the disk. This is due to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0's
inability to install on unknown unlabeled disks. This limitation will be lifted
in the next Quasijarus release, which I'm already working on.

> 1        KA650 -BA

A very nice CPU, rated at 2.8 VUPs. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 fully supports it
(better than CSRG's Tahoe and Reno releases). KA650 support is present in the
GENERIC kernel, so it will Just Boot (tm).

The "-BA" part means that it has bit 1 set in the second longword of the EPROM,
causing DEC proprietary OSes to treat it as a "single-user" machine. Research
OSes like 4.3BSD-* ignore this bit. But if you do want to convert your machine
to "multiuser" status, clear bit 1, set bit 0, and recalculate the checksum
(you'll need an EPROM blaster). This will turn your CPU into a KA650-AA.

You also have the option of upgrading this CPU to a KA655 (3.8 VUPs) or KA660
(5 VUPs). KA655 is also fully supported by 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, and KA660
support is coming soon (100% guarrantee that I'll get it before NetBSD does).

> 2        MS650 -AA
> 3        MS650 -AA

-AA is a 8 MB board, so you have a total of 16 MB of RAM.

Note, though, that -AAs are old boards, and they work only with KA650 and
KA640. If you decide to upgrade to KA655 or KA660, you'll need either DEC
MS650-Bx or third-party MS650-compatible memory. These work with all KA650
series CPUs.

> 4        DELQA -SA

Ethernet. Fully supported by Berkeley UNIX since 4.3BSD.

> 5        VCB02
> 6        VCB02
> 7        VCB02

QDSS video. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 should support this (untested), but since you
don't have a VAXstation monitor or keyboard anyway, pull these three boards out
and move everything else to the right (you can't leave empty Q-bus slots in the
middle).

> 8        CXY08

8-line asynchronous multiplexer (8-port serial interface). Not sure if 4.3BSD-*
has a driver for it (I haven't touched this area and left it as it was in
CSRG's Tahoe release). It has some drivers for DEC asynchronous multiplexers,
but DEC made a lot of different ones, and I don't know where does CXY08 stand
with respect to everything else DEC has produced.

Ultrix supports it for sure, though.

> 9        TQK70

Controller for TK70.

> 10       KDA50
> 11       KDA50

Controller for RA70 (or any other SDI disks you may want to connect).

> Any suggestions are appreciated.

Hmm, it looks like you have already been brainwashed by one NutBSDist. Please
don't listen to him. Running NetBSD is conduct unbecoming a PUPS/TUHS member.
NetBSD is the worst OS a VAX can run. Its code is a total mess, and its
"developers" are incompetent morons (I know, I've been on their list for 6
months or so). They have no clue as to how to write VAX OSes, and their list of
supported hardware is as skinny as their brains. NetBSD is extremely flaky, and
it's extremely bloated.

My authoritative advice to you is to run 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, my latest release
made two weeks ago (I'm the maintainer of 4.3BSD-*). It comes with 100%
complete source code, and, picture this, the entire system with all binaries
_and full sources_ fits in 75 MB! It's absolutely True and Pure UNIX, nothing
can be better.

There is also Ultrix. No matter how much those losers insult it, it's one of
the best OSes in the Universe, second only to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus. Despite what
some incompetent morons may say, it is not a "4.2/4.3 mix", it's 100% 4.3.
True, it has been interDIGITated by DEC, which makes it a little impure and
bloated (and binary-only), but otherwise it's OK. It is bigger than a
binary-only 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 installation, but certainly much smaller than
NutBSD. As for the DEC additions, just ignore them! Just because Ultrix
optionally supports Sun YP, Hesiod, and other crap doesn't mean that you have
to use it! In fact, it's already disabled by default! Just don't enable it,
that's all! When /etc/svc.conf selects "local,bind" for hosts and "local" for
everything else, Ultrix becomes indistinguishable from 4.3BSD! I can bet that
if I show you two VAXen, one running 4.3BSD and the other running Ultrix, you
won't be able to tell easily which is which.

Also some Ultrix-specific features are really nice. Take NFS, for example. I
will certainly add NFS to 4.3BSD-Quasijarus at some point. Also don't forget
that Ultrix runs on almost every VAX ever made. I often run Ultrix instead of
4.3BSD-* when the latter doesn't run on the hardware in question. In fact, this
is what Ultrix is best for: a fallback OS to replace 4.3BSD-* when it doesn't
support the hardware. Of course 4.3BSD-Quasijarus is the best OS in the
Universe, and you should always run it whenever possible, but when you can't
Ultrix is a very good fallback because it's so close.

But since you have a KA650, you don't have to worry about this, as
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 will run on it like a charm.

Best of luck with it. 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 is in the PUPS archive in the
Distributions/4bsd/43quasi0.vax directory.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Thu Jan  7 07:06:48 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 13:06:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Twist of Fate...
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990106125635.20195A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>


So get this -- Matt Kjaer, a friend of a friend of mine and the person who
originally got me interested in PDP's, works at the University of Oregon
computing center.  He claims that if he can dig it up, the University of
Oregon has an original Unix license for PDP-11's.  I'm not sure what
version of Unix it is or if it's even from SCO, but assuming it is, where
do we fax/mail/deliver/etc a copy of it to get access to the legendary
protected FTP directory with the source codes?


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan  7 08:20:25 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:20:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Twist of Fate...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990106125635.20195A-100000@coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at "Jan 6, 1999  1: 6:48 pm"
Message-ID: <199901062220.JAA19617@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Erin W. Corliss:
> 
> So get this -- Matt Kjaer, a friend of a friend of mine and the person who
> originally got me interested in PDP's, works at the University of Oregon
> computing center.  He claims that if he can dig it up, the University of
> Oregon has an original Unix license for PDP-11's.  I'm not sure what
> version of Unix it is or if it's even from SCO, but assuming it is, where
> do we fax/mail/deliver/etc a copy of it to get access to the legendary
> protected FTP directory with the source codes?

Fax a copy to me (the pages giving the license owner, the license number,
the list of operating systems covered, the list of CPUs covered, and the
signatures), and then get Matt to email me!

As per usual, I need to send back access details securely. A fax number
or a means of obtaining a PGP key will allow me to do this.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan  7 08:26:54 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:26:54 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Twist of Fate...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990106142501.20945A-100000@coffee.corliss.net> from "Erin W. Corliss" at "Jan 6, 1999  2:26:32 pm"
Message-ID: <199901062226.JAA19685@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Erin W. Corliss:
> On Thu, 7 Jan 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:
> 
> > Fax a copy to me (the pages giving the license owner, the license number,
> > the list of operating systems covered, the list of CPUs covered, and the
> > signatures), and then get Matt to email me!
> 
> What's your fax number?

Damn, I knew I'd forget to put that in!

Warren:		+61 2 6268 8581

Ciao,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan  7 09:00:40 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:00:40 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Bob Manners: new email addr?
Message-ID: <199901062300.KAA19815@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Sorry to bother the list. Mail to Bob Manners rjm at swift.eng.ox.ac.uk is
bouncing, and I know he'd like to stay on the PUPS list. Has anybody got
a new address for him?

Thanks,
	Warren

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From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca  Thu Jan  7 09:04:00 1999
From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca)
Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 18:04:00 -0500
Subject: V8's roots?
Message-ID: <199901062304.KAA15617@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

The operating system kernel on the V8 distribution tape (which was sent
to less than a dozen places, under special license) was indeed descended
from one of the 4.1 BSD releases; I have a vague memory that it was 4.1a,
but I wasn't there at the time, and don't know just what was in each of
the intermediate 4.1s.  As I understand the history (again, I wasn't there
when this part happened), when the Computing Science Research Center
decided to move its main computing world to VAX in the early 1980s,
they wanted a reasonably stable, reasonably fast system with paging,
and 4.1x (for whatever value of x it was) seemed the best available choice.
The only real competitor was the paging descendant of 32/V done by John
Reiser (who did the original 32/V port to the VAX, I believe), but that
system seemed to have lost the evolutionary battle and was judged a bad
bet.

It may help to identify the kernel in question to know that it probably
didn't have sockets yet, and certainly didn't have FFS.

The 4.1x kernel was just used as a base, however.  By the time I arrived
at the Center in late 1984, a good bit had been added and replaced: the
V7-heritage terminal IO subsystem had been kicked out in favour of Dennis
Ritchie's stream I/O system; Peter Weinberger's simple disk file system
speedups (4KB blocks and a bitmapped free list, nothing more) and network
file system code and the corresponding file system switch had been added;
Tom Killian's process file system had appeared.

The commands in /bin and /usr/bin and whatnot had less obvious BSD influence,
and I suspect they were mostly carried over from the system used internally
on the PDP11s when the VAXes first arrived.

Norman Wilson
(six years in New Jersey drove me out of the country)

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Thu Jan  7 09:42:41 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 18:42:41 -0500
Subject: My mail screw-up
Message-ID: <199901062342.SAA03510@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Hello everyone,

Sorry for being away from the list lately, the machine I was doing my E-mail on
(harrier.Uznet.NET) has been down for several days, and I have to assume that
it's down forever. I have moved my mail back to my old address
<mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu>.

If any of you have sent any mail to msokolov at harrier.Uznet.NET in the past
several days, please resend it to mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu, since
harrier.Uznet.NET is probably down forever and everything in my mailbox is
lost. (I have recovered the missed pups mail via the archive.)

Sorry for this screw-up, but it's not my fault, I'm not that machine's admin.
(The admin is Stacy Minkin, whom I can't contact because his address is also
obviously on that machine.)

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan  7 13:39:39 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 14:39:39 +1100 (EST)
Subject: V8's roots? (fwd)
Message-ID: <199901070339.OAA27637@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

----- Forwarded message from dmr -----

I also got mail from Norman Wilson today about the discussion.

This is mainly to confirm and fill out details of Wilson's account.

The Eighth Edition system started with (I believe) BSD 4.1c and
the work was done on VAX 11/750s -- our group did not get
a 780 until a while later.

Most of the operating system superstructure of BSD was retained
(in particular no one (even the indefatigable Norman)
wanted to get much into the paging code.  Norman is also
right that the competitor was John Reiser's (and Tom London's)
32V descendant from another group at the Labs.  In structure
this system had a lot to offer (in particular the buffer cache and the page
pool were unified, but it was clear that their work was not being
supported by their own management.  It was used for a while on
our first 750 and also our first 11/780 ("alice", a name that lives
in netnews fame preceding  the reach of Dejanews).

The big change leading to V8 was the scooping-out and replacement of
the character-device and networking part by the streams mechanism.  Later,
Peter Weinberger added the file-system switch that enabled
remote file systems and prescient things ideas like /proc).  Weinberger,
as Norman said, also did a simple-minded FFS.

The TCP/IP stack wasn't very important to us then and it has a mixed and
murky history.  Much of it came from early CSRG work, but it was converted
to a streams approach by Robert Morris and subsequently fiddled over a lot.

Likewise, as Norman said, the applications (/bin and whatnot) were somewhat
of a mixture.  Many were the locally-done versions, some were taken
from BSD in some incarnation, some from System V.

	Dennis

----- End of forwarded message from dmr -----


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jan  8 15:13:56 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 1999 16:13:56 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Earliest UNIX source!
Message-ID: <199901080513.QAA03259@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	Dennis has just passed to me the source to a UNIX kernel around
the 3rd Edition (i.e around 1973). He says this is the oldest
machine-readable UNIX source he has. I've just placed it in the PUPS
archive at:

	Distributions/research/Dennis_v3

Cheers,
	Warren


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Mon Jan 11 08:16:49 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 09:16:49 +1100 (EST)
Subject: EDU MAGAZINE
In-Reply-To: <008c01be3cc2$7fe09820$c8c5acce@oemcomputer> from Lawrence Reinish at "Jan 10, 1999 12:56: 5 pm"
Message-ID: <199901102216.JAA10623@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Lawrence Reinish:
> I am looking for several issues of 'EDU MAGAZINE' from mid-1975 to 1976.
> It was published by Digital Equipment Corporation. Any assistance would be
> greatly appreciated.
> 
> Lawrence Reinish

Lawrence, I don't have any copies. I'll forward this on to some people
who might be able to help you.

Cheers,
	Warren



From belfry at nsw.bigpond.net.au  Tue Jan 12 16:34:35 1999
From: belfry at nsw.bigpond.net.au (BeLFrY)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 17:34:35 +1100
Subject: Confirming machine hardware.
Message-ID: <369AECFA.87A55C4@nsw.bigpond.net.au>

G'day all...

I have a DEC-PRO/350.

I believe it is a PDP8.

Is there any way of confirming this?

Thanks.

Michael.


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From emu at ecubics.com  Wed Jan 13 00:26:39 1999
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 07:26:39 -0700
Subject: Confirming machine hardware.
Message-ID: <19990112142726.AAA22519@p2350>

Hi Michael,

----------
> From: BeLFrY <belfry at nsw.bigpond.net.au>
> To: "\"PUPs\" PDP11 Unix Preservation group" <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Confirming machine hardware.
> Date: Monday, January 11, 1999 11:34 PM
 
> I have a DEC-PRO/350.
which is nice ;-))
 
> I believe it is a PDP8.
> Is there any way of confirming this?

Sorry, there is no way to confirm this ;-)) (sorry, couldn't resist)
the nearest "brother" of the pro/350 would be the pdp11/23, pdp11//23+ or
pdp11/24, because the use the same CPU. (DCF11)

hope it helps,
emanuel

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan 13 05:43:04 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 20:43:04 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Confirming machine hardware.
In-Reply-To: <369AECFA.87A55C4@nsw.bigpond.net.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990112204229.9487A-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 12 Jan 1999, BeLFrY wrote:

> G'day all...

Hi there.

> I have a DEC-PRO/350.
> 
> I believe it is a PDP8.
> 
> Is there any way of confirming this?

No.

However I can confirm that it is a pdp-11.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 13 09:18:35 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:18:35 -0500
Subject: 11/730 question
Message-ID: <199901122318.SAA04873@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I wonder if any of you has some input on this issue. As I'm preparing for
making my planned disk labeling improvements (making it possible to install the
system on a fresh unlabeled disk in a more or less straightforward way), I
first want to clean up some mess in the standalone system. One thing that
annoys me in there is that for every standalone program that's supposed to go
on the console media there are two versions built, a normal one and a "730"
one. The comments say that 11/730 has a microcode botch that prevents it from
loading programs larger than 12.5 KB, so supposedly all "730" standalone
programs must be smaller than that. However, right now all standalone programs
are around 30 KB, and the difference between the normal and "730" versions is
only about 3 KB, even though the "730" versions do have the MASSBUS and BI code
compiled out. Wondering if there is a way to make them smaller, I looked at
older versions, and guess what, even in 4.2 the "730" versions are a little bit
over the alleged 12.5 KB limit! That's right, 4.2BSD is the first release with
11/730 support, and its standalone programs are already over the alleged 11/730
microcode limit!

This raises quite a few questions. First of all, does the 11/730 microcode
really have this limitation, or is it just a hoax? If this limit does exist,
when exactly does it apply? The BSD distribution TU58 cassette always used the
full versions of the programs, not the "730" ones (the distribution cassette is
also used for 750s), and yet apparently 730s could be bootstrapped from it.
Maybe this limitation applies only to automatic bootstrap and not to manual
loading? And if this is indeed a microcode botch, are there any patches
available for it?

I would appreciate it if someone here can provide some answers to these
questions. I would really like to get rid of those "730" standalone programs,
but I can't do it if this would break 11/730 support. (It's my responsibility
as the 4.3BSD-* maintainer to only add features, but never break anything that
works in plain 4.3 or 4.2.)

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu

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From mckusick at mckusick.com  Wed Jan 13 06:18:13 1999
From: mckusick at mckusick.com (Kirk McKusick)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 12:18:13 -0800
Subject: 11/730 question 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 12 Jan 1999 18:18:35 EST."
             <199901122318.SAA04873@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> 
Message-ID: <199901122018.MAA10534@flamingo.McKusick.COM>

I applaud your desire not to break old 4.2/4.3 machines.
I would be very resistant to losing support for a popular
machine like the 11/750. However, I think that losing support
for the 11/730 would be acceptable. It was a very feeble
processor (0.3 of a 780) and very few of them were ever sold.
We had only one at Berkeley (for porting purposes), and it was
so slow that we were not even able to pawn it off on the
undergrad CS organization when we were done with it.

	Kirk

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 13 14:29:12 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 23:29:12 -0500
Subject: 11/730 question
Message-ID: <199901130429.XAA04949@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Kirk McKusick <mckusick at McKusick.COM> wrote:

> I applaud your desire not to break old 4.2/4.3 machines.
> I would be very resistant to losing support for a popular
> machine like the 11/750. However, I think that losing support
> for the 11/730 would be acceptable.

You are not the first person I hear this from, and I wouldn't completely
disagree. However, it always pains me very much when a system really ought to
run on a machine and has all the necessary ingredients, but fails because of
some tiny nit. This is exactly the case here. The CPU is supported, the console
storage device is supported, all bootstrap scripts are already written, even
the IDC is supported, but the standalone programs refuse to load because of a
ucode botch!

Now, I did look more carefully, and the boot.730 program does fit into 12.5 KB
after all in 4.2 and 4.3 (copy.730 fits in 4.2 but not in 4.3, and format.730
doesn't fit even in 4.2). So I guess it would be possible after all to massage
up the Makefile and the ifdefing in the sources to make the 4.3-Quasijarus
standalone system build a small boot.730.

However, the objections to this approach are:

1. Instead of tidying up the standalone system, this would make it an even
   worse mess.

2. In future Quasijarus releases I plan to retire the current standalone
   drivers for U/Q and BI MSCP and make the standalone system call DEC's own
   VMB for I/O from/to all MSCP devices, making it possible to support MSCP on
   more than just U/Q and BI. However, this means that all big VAX users with
   MSCP disks will now need a copy of DEC's VMB.EXE in addition to UNIX's
   native boot code. It will also have to be a recent enough version, and I'm
   sure as hell that the version that came with 11/730 is too old. A newer
   version of VMB can be pulled out of almost any VMS or Ultrix distribution,
   but the one I have seen was 40 KB long. Thus even if I manage to make a
   boot.730 that fits within 12.5 KB, you would still need the 40 KB VMB.EXE if
   your disk is RAxx (the most common type), and this obviously makes boot.730
   squeezing an exercise in futility.

Resolution: I will pitch the *.730 programs and add a note to the documentation
that installation on a 730 requires a ucode upgrade that fixes this botch. If
someone asks me where to obtain one (or how to write one if it doesn't exist),
I'll redirect them to this list, as I have no idea. :-)

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Thu Jan 14 11:13:23 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 20:13:23 -0500
Subject: Quasijarus Project WWW page update
Message-ID: <199901140113.UAA05182@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have finally updated the Quasijarus Project WWW page so that now it's much
more useful. You can find it at:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Fri Jan 15 08:50:01 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 17:50:01 -0500
Subject: Quasijarus Project Status Report
Message-ID: <199901142250.RAA00361@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have just finished SCCS-reconstructing /usr/src/sys. Amazingly (and to CSRG's
credit) the history has been preserved very well, and I have SCCS-recostructed
almost every file in the kernel. There are only a few lost SCCS files. For the
list see:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/sccs.html

If you know anything about these files, please contact me ASAP!

Also when I SCCS-reconstructed the /usr/src/sys/tahoe* subdirs, I had to take a
step back. In the currently shipping release, 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0, these subdirs
are identical to the ones on the 4.3BSD-Tahoe+HCX-9 tape. However, in the
current master source tree they have been stepped back to the original
4.3BSD-Tahoe tape. For the explanation of this decision, see:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/arch.html

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jan 15 13:51:04 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 14:51:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Success in Compiling Nsys Kernel
Message-ID: <199901150351.OAA21707@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	After several days of frustration and enlightenment, I have been
able to compile and boot the `nsys' kernel source code on top of a 5th
Edition RK05 root filesystem.

The `nsys' kernel code corresponds to a time around the 3rd Edition of UNIX,
i.e. Jan 1973. Dennis Ritchie donated this to the PUPS Archive a few days ago.

I have placed the modifications to `nsys', plus some documentation, in the
PUPS Archive in Distributions/research/Dennis_v3.

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jan 15 15:20:12 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 15 Jan 1999 16:20:12 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Success in Compiling Nsys Kernel
In-Reply-To: <01be4045$e3b28080$f2681081@collinse-home.tyson.com> from Efton Collins at "Jan 14, 1999 11: 8:35 pm"
Message-ID: <199901150520.QAA22113@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Efton Collins:
> I wonder how long it has been since that version of the kernel ran? Could be
> 25 years. Surely that will now be the earliest bootable kernel bar none. It
> must give Ken and Dennis a smile.
> 
> It is nice to see such interesting things continue to find their way into
> the archive. With the help of so many of the pioneers PUPS is fulfilling its
> charter very well indeed.
> 
> E-

Hi Efton. I had been keeping Dennis informed of my progress, and a few
days ago he passed on some email from Bob Keys:

    [Dennis wrote:]
    Keys said (when I mentioned your tries)

     > Ohhh, neato!  Let us keep fingers crossed, knock on wood 3 times,
     > cow-tow as appropriate, rub the rabbit's foot, throw salt before
     > the sumo ring, .... and anything else?.....(:+}}....

Dennis then went on to suggest some debugging ideas, when I was stuck:

    Astonishing.  When booting it might be best to start
    with an init that just does
      open(something);
      open(something);
      write(1, "Hello\n", 6);

    It might even be appropriate to try first with just  abort();
    to see if /etc/init can be read,

He must be out today, because I haven't got a reply back from my email
indicating success.

The `nsys' files were dated Jan 22, 1973. I definitely wanted to get the
kernel working by Jan 22, 1999 so that it was only 25 years ago, not 26!

I've also made some notes about the differences between `nsys' and V5,
attached below. Thanks for your encouraging email.

Cheers,
	Warren

	Differences in available syscalls between `nsys' and V5.
	========================================================

Syscalls in `nsys' but not in V5:
---------------------------------

        1, &quit,                       /* 26 = quit */
        1, &intr,                       /* 27 = intr */
        1, &cemt,                       /* 29 = cemt */
        1, &ilgins,                     /* 33 = ilgins */
        1, &fpe,                        /* 40 = fpe */

                These deliver signals QUIT, INTR, EMT, INS or FPE
                to the pid in arg0. Any user can send these signals.

        0, &prproc                      /* 63 = special */

        For each of the 50 entries in the proc array, if there is
        a valid process entry there, print the array index and the
        following fields from the proc structure:

                p_stat, p_flag, p_pid, p_ppid,
                p_addr, p_size, p_wchan, p_textp

Syscalls in V5 but not in `nsys':
---------------------------------

        0, &getpid,                     /* 20 = getpid */
        1, &smdate,                     /* 30 = smdate */
        0, &nice,                       /* 34 = nice */
        0, &pipe,                       /* 42 = pipe */		!!!
        4, &profil,                     /* 44 = prof */

Other Differences
-----------------

        /* 21 = mount */ has 2 arguments in `nsys', 3 in V5
        /* 37 = kill */  has 0 arguments in `nsys', 1 in V5


From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 19 06:33:08 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 15:33:08 -0500
Subject: University of Wisconsin's hacked 4.3BSD
Message-ID: <199901182033.PAA01180@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have just uploaded the distribution images for the University of Winconsin's
hacked 4.3BSD contributed by James Lothian. You can find them in the
Distributions/4bsd/thirdparty/UWisc4.3 directory in the PUPS archive.

I haven't uploaded James' own changed /usr/src yet, will probably do it later
at night.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jan 19 12:08:22 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 13:08:22 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Co-authors for Unix history paper?
Message-ID: <199901190208.NAA02324@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Hi all,
	I recently approached the IEEE Annals of Computing History journal
to see if they would be interested in a paper on our efforts to find and
preserve the old versions of Unix. They said yes, so I was wondering if
anybody might want to be co-author. This is what I suggested:

> I'd like to write an article which describes the efforts to find and
> preserve historical material which is related to UNIX. This includes
> finding tapes, reading them, decoding their formats etc.
> 
> The article would also discuss the mechanisms available for running
> these old UNIX systems: by using old hardware (and the difficulties
> of maintaining such equipment), by using software emulators (and
> possibly a discussion of what they provide).
> 
> In other words, the actual history of UNIX and its influence would not
> be covered, but the `archaeology' and preservation of artifacts from
> the early days of UNIX would be.

Given that there are people on the list who deal with old hardware, reading
ancient tapes, etc., I thought they might like to add some input to the
paper.

I think the paper size is limited to around 25-30 pages, and has be formal
in tone. If anybody has any suggestions as to what should go in (or even
wants to write a section), then I would welcome some email!

Cheers all,
	Warren

P.S I'm giving a similar, but much more informal, paper at a local
conference next month. The paper is at:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Seminars/Saving_Unix/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 19 18:46:44 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 1999 03:46:44 -0500
Subject: James Lothian's /usr/src tarball
Message-ID: <199901190846.DAA01382@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have just uploaded James Lothian's /usr/src tarball. You can find it in the
Distributions/4bsd/thirdparty/UWisc4.3/James_Lothian_mods directory in the PUPS
archive.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 20 08:47:23 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 09:47:23 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Intruiging bits in the nsys kernel
In-Reply-To: <199901191633.KAA22239@fudge.uchicago.edu> from Eric Fischer at "Jan 19, 1999 10:33:43 am"
Message-ID: <199901192247.JAA05453@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Eric Fischer:
> Congratulations on getting the nsys kernel running!  I have
> a couple of random comments on what you posted to the list:
> 
> > Syscalls in `nsys' but not in V5:
> > ---------------------------------
> >         1, &quit,                       /* 26 = quit */
> >         1, &intr,                       /* 27 = intr */
> >         1, &cemt,                       /* 29 = cemt */
> >         1, &ilgins,                     /* 33 = ilgins */
> >         1, &fpe,                        /* 40 = fpe */
> > 
> >                 These deliver signals QUIT, INTR, EMT, INS or FPE
> >                 to the pid in arg0. Any user can send these signals.
> 
> I think this is backwards -- these system calls don't deliver
> signals, they trap them.  That is, they're the predecessors
> of signal(), not kill().

Eric is quite correct, and I realised this after reading some comments
on the V2 kernel. The nsys kernel also has a sig() system call which
allows a process to trap an arbitrary signal. This is why the syscalls
above were removed: there was a more general system call available.
 
> 
> > Syscalls in V5 but not in `nsys':
> > ---------------------------------
> >         0, &getpid,                     /* 20 = getpid */
> >         1, &smdate,                     /* 30 = smdate */
> >         0, &nice,                       /* 34 = nice */
> >         0, &pipe,                       /* 42 = pipe */		!!!
> >         4, &profil,                     /* 44 = prof */
> 
> This part seems really weird.  Since it has fpe() but not nice() and
> pipe(), that would have to mean it's somewhere intermediate between
> v2 and v3, at least if the details in Doug McIlroy's "Research Unix
> Reader" are all accurate.  And I *really* don't understand why there
> would be space reserved in the system call table for nice and pipe
> but no implementations of the functions.
> 
> The other weird part is that McIlroy says that smdate() was in v1
> through v3 but disappeared after that.  I don't have the v5 kernel
> source at hand right now, so I can't check up on that, but it's
> strange that smdate should be missing here if this is an early v3.
> 
> Actually, on further inspection this must be a *late* v3, since it
> has mknod(), getgid(), and setgid(), which aren't supposed to have
> shown up until v4.  (No signal(), though, so it's not quite v4.)
> That's still very odd that pipes would be left out, unless this
> version was crunched to run in an especially small memory or something.
> 
> And yet, v3 was supposed to have been released in February, 1973, and
> this is earlier than that, so what are any v4 features doing there at
> all?  This just gets stranger and stranger...
> eric

I've had some chat with Dennis about this kernel, and how it fitted into
development. The summary is: Ken tried to rewrite the assembly version of
the kernel in B (or NB) in 1972, but gave up because structures didn't
exist. Once B -> NB -> C and got structures, they tried again. Apparently,
the `new' kernel (aka nsys) was developed in parallel with the `old' 
assembly kernel during early to mid-1973. Then, Dennis says:

	I'm pretty sure that we didn't adopt [the C version of the kernel]
	as the standard "production" system until about September 1973.
	It is very likely that the real "sys" was still in assembler.
	Pipes were probably added first to [the sys] version, given the
	evidence in "nsys."

Dennis also says:

	During 1972, Ken finally puts pipes into Unix at McIlroy's urging.

which would explain why there is a reserved syscall in `nsys', but no
code as yet.

I can't explain the existence of the mknod(), getgid(), and setgid()
system calls. Norman and Bob Keys, I think one/both of you have got the
old manuals, can you look through them and find out when these syscalls
appeared?

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 20 13:46:41 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
Message-ID: <199901200346.OAA06481@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of
Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970. It's at:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg

Ciao,
	Warren

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From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca  Thu Jan 21 01:43:58 1999
From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:43:58 -0500
Subject: Intruiging bits in the nsys kernel
Message-ID: <199901201544.CAA14976@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Some answers to Warren's queries:

mknod(II) first shows up in the Fourth Edition; the manual entry is dated
8/5/73.  (That having been typed in the US, presumably it means 5 Aug 1973.)
getgid(II) shows in the same manual, but with an older date: 3/15/72.
This is also the edition in which the documentation for stat(II) first
admits a group ID as well as a user ID.

Both my hazy memory (made worse by lack of sleep right now) and the clues
in the manual suggest that 3e/4e was the period when the system was rewritten
in C; e.g. 4e is the first to show C interfaces in section II, complete with
structs as well as pure byte-offset descriptions for objects like that filled
in by stat, though the structs are nameless, presumably because there were no
standard header files yet.  Evidently the file system upheaval occurred in
the same period.

Reading the description of the 3e file system, I see it has been too long since
I've read it.  A summary:
	Blocks 0 and 1 are the super-block, consisting of
		size of free-storage bitmap
		the map itself
		size of free-i-node map
		the map itself
	Block 2 begins the i-list; data blocks follow.
	I-nodes 1-40 are reserved for special (device) files,
	and don't appear in the map.  I-node 41 is the root.
	I-nodes have flags, a link count, a userid, a 16-bit
	size, creation and modification times, and eight block
	pointers.  Flag bits inclode `allocated', `large file'
	(the pointers are to indirect blocks), read and write
	permissions for user and other, set-userid, a single
	`executable' flag, a `directory' flag (if clear, regular
	file).

	BUGS
	Two blocks are not enough to handle the i- and free-
	storage maps for an RP02 disk pack, which contains
	around 10 million words.

The 4e file system is more or less that in the more-familiar V6 system:
	Block 0 reserved for boot block
	Block 1 is the super-block: file-system and i-list sizes,
	caches of free block and i-node numbers.  The free-block
	list is now the familiar chain of blocks list free block
	numbers; the free-inode list is abolished because the
	i-nodes all have `allocated' flags anyway.
	Block 2 begins the i-list.  I-node 1 is the root.
	I-nodes differ from 3e in having a group ID,a 24-bit
	size, access time instead of creation time; the `directory'
	flag becomes a two-bit `file type' flag; group permissions
	appear, there are three separate `executable' flags, and
	set-group-ID appears.

	No BUGS yet, perhaps because the code was new.

Notice how history repeats: 4e replaced the free-block bitmap with
a list, which made it simpler to cope with huge file systems but
harder to allocate blocks in a simpler order; sundry replacement
file systems in the early 1980s (Berkeley FFS, Weinberger's cheap
hacks in V8) restored the bitmap, because it's easier to pick a good
block when you can see all the blocks available, and because by then
computers had enough memory and disks were big enough that a large
bitmap wasn't a burden.

An anecdote may be (barely) relevant here.  I remember once in the
late 1980s having a chat with Lee McMahon about group IDs, and how
they didn't seem to have done quite what people wanted (hence the
multiple-groups-per-process stuff in most current systems, and the
special semantics for the set-group-id flag on directories, and
various other features that have seemed to me never to quite hit
the mark).  Lee told me that when Ken first put group IDs into the
system, he asked Ken what they were for.  Ken allegedly shrugged
and said `I dunno.'

Norman Wilson

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From mjenkins at carp.gbr.epa.gov  Thu Jan 21 02:49:27 1999
From: mjenkins at carp.gbr.epa.gov (Mike Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 10:49:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
In-Reply-To: <199901200346.OAA06481@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <199901201649.KAA08238@carp.gbr.epa.gov>

> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg

There is a smaller (26K) gif version on the following page:

	 http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html

The URL for the gif is:

	 http://www.lucent.com/museum/images/1950/1969rt.gif

Mike


From agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu  Thu Jan 21 08:10:51 1999
From: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 17:10:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901201708340.26596-100000@dizzy.cs.fiu.edu>


Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.

Any help would be appreciated.



*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu
*********************************


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan 21 08:15:24 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:15:24 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901201708340.26596-100000@dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 20, 1999  5:10:51 pm"
Message-ID: <199901202215.JAA08028@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> 
> Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated.

Have a look at the 6th Edition installation instructions at:

	http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Setup/v6_setup.html

Cheers,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan 21 08:47:37 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 09:47:37 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Early UNIX dates
Message-ID: <199901202247.JAA08078@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	After some reading though papers and books, I've come up with the
following brief timeline of very early UNIX development. I just thought
some of you might find it interesting.

	Warren


		   Early dates of UNIX Development

As accurately as we can tell, anyway! References given where possible.

1969
	Unknown: Ken creates `Space Travel'. It was first written on Multics,
		then transliterated into Fortran for GECOS, then Ken and
		Dennis rewrote Space Travel to run on the PDP-7
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]

	Mid-year: Bell Labs withdraws from the Multics project
		  [QCU pg 8]

	April, May, June: Ken is interested in writing a file system
		  [QCU pg 8]

	Mid-year: Ken brings the file system to life on the PDP-7 in a month
		  [QCU pg 10]

	Unknown: Ken develops the B language
		  [QCU pg 34],
		  [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]

1970
	Unknown: Peter Neumann coins the term `Unics', which is
		subsequently changed to `Unix'
		  [QCU pg 9]

	Unknown: Alternatively, Brian Kernighan suggests the name `Unix'
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]

	Mid-year: The PDP-11/20 is purchased, with no disk drives
		[QCU pg 35],
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]

	3 months later: The disks arrive
		  [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]

	Unknown: Ken recodes the Unix kernel and some commands in PDP-11
		assembly code
		  [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]

1971
	January-March: PDP-11 version largely rewritten during this period
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html]

	February: PDP-11 Unix beccomes ``operational''
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html]

	Unknown: Dennis extends B to be NB
		  [http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html]

	Spring: roff rewritten in PDP-11 assembler language, starting from
		the PDP-7 version that had been transliterated from
		McIlroy's BCPL version on Multics, which had in turn been
		inspired by J. Saltzer's runoff program on CTSS
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]
	
	November: First Edition manuals were published
		  [QCU pg 43]

1972
	January: The Labs issues a technical memorandum, written by Ken,
		describing the B language on the PDP-11
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.html]

	March: First manual for cc(1)
		  [QCU pg 48]

	March: UNIX is running on at least 5 PDP-11/20s
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/notes.html]

	June: DEC starts to ship the PDP-11/45. The Labs purchases one
		sonn after this
		[http://www.village.org/pdp11/faq.pages/11model.html]

	June: Second Edition manuals were published. 10 UNIX installations
		  [QCU pg 43]

	Unknown: Ken adds pipes to the assembly-language version of the kernel
		[QCU pg 51],
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html]

1973
	January: the `nsys' kernel in the PUPS archive, written in C
		[timestamps on the files]

	February: Third Edition manuals were published. 16 UNIX installations
		  [QCU pg 43]
		  Kernel is still the assembly-language version
		  [private email from dmr dated 7 Jan 1999]

	September: The C version of the kernel is adopted over the
		assembly-language version
		  [private email from dmr dated 18 Jan 1999]

	October: First UNIX paper, presented by Ken at the Fourth
    		ACM Symposium on Operating Systems Principles
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html]

	November: Fourth Edition manuals were published
		  [QCU pg 43]

1974
	June: Fifth Edition manuals were published
		  [QCU pg 43]

	July: Ken's SOSP published in Communications of the ACM, 17, No. 7
		[http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/cacm.html]

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Jan 21 10:58:47 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 11:28:47 +1030
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
In-Reply-To: <199901201649.KAA08238@carp.gbr.epa.gov>; from Mike Jenkins on Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 10:49:27AM -0600
References: <199901200346.OAA06481@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> <199901201649.KAA08238@carp.gbr.epa.gov>
Message-ID: <19990121112846.N15785@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 20 January 1999 at 10:49:27 -0600, Mike Jenkins wrote:
>> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Images/ken-and-den.jpg
>
> There is a smaller (26K) gif version on the following page:
>
> 	 http://www.lucent.com/museum/1969unix.html
>
> The URL for the gif is:
>
> 	 http://www.lucent.com/museum/images/1950/1969rt.gif

The original .jpeg could do with re-saving; with xv you can get it
down to 10% of the original volume.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu  Thu Jan 21 11:28:31 1999
From: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <199901202215.JAA08028@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>


I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I
get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.


Thanks for the help,
Alex

*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu
*********************************

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Warren Toomey wrote:

> In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> > 
> > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
> > 
> > Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Have a look at the 6th Edition installation instructions at:
> 
> 	http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS/Setup/v6_setup.html
> 
> Cheers,
> 	Warren
> 


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Jan 21 13:50:59 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 20, 1999  8:28:31 pm"
Message-ID: <199901210350.OAA09253@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> 
> Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
> 
> I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I
> get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.

The 6th Ed installation instructions say: The tape contains 12100 512-byte
records followed by a single file mark. Have you made the tape image for
Bob Supnik's emulator to match this, and what configuration file are you
giving to the emulator?

Thanks,
	Warren

P.S You can use the RK05 disk image in
Distributions/research/Dennis_v6/v6root.gz, or the RL02 image in
Bootable_Images/v6_rl02_unknown.gz,
unless you really do want to install V6 from tape.

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From tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO  Thu Jan 21 15:23:56 1999
From: tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo)
Date: 21 Jan 1999 06:23:56 +0100
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: alejandro gonzalez's message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 20:28:31 -0500 (EST)"
References: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901202027130.10646-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>
Message-ID: <8667a1ci6r.fsf@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>

alejandro gonzalez <agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu> writes:

> I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when
> I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.

You're following the wrong instructions.  :-)  Or, at least, you're
taking them too literally.  You're trying to use the tape the way it
would be done on a real machine, but it's much easier to just split it
into disk images under the host UNIX.  Looking in my V6 directory,
I've got a text file containing something that I believe Warren wrote,
in a text file accompanying the tape image:

"This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent
to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the
first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks
100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr
RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image."

So what I did with that tape, for Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator, was
to run these commands under the host UNIX:

	% gunzip v6.tape.gz
	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.root.rk05 count=4000 skip=100
	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.usr.rk05 count=4000 skip=4100
	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.doc.rk05 count=4000 skip=8100

Then, I made a script file for the simulator:

	% cat > v6.script
	attach rk0 V6.root.rk05
	attach rk1 V6.usr.rk05
	attach rk2 V6.doc.rk05
	boot rk0
	^d
	%

...and finally, I run the resulting system, thus:

	% pdp11 v6.script
	PDP-11 simulator V2.3
	@unix
	login:

I may have had to modify something in the actual UNIX V6 system to
mount rk1 and rk2 properly -- I don't recall.  You'll figure it out.

Anyway, the system runs like a charm, and I've successfully rebuilt
the kernel from sources on it.  Fun!

Good luck!

-tih
-- 
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"

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From tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO  Thu Jan 21 15:28:07 1999
From: tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo)
Date: 21 Jan 1999 06:28:07 +0100
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
In-Reply-To: Warren Toomey's message of "Wed, 20 Jan 1999 14:46:41 +1100 (EST)"
References: <199901200346.OAA06481@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <863e55chzs.fsf@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>

Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:

> 	Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of
> Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970.

That's neat!  I've got a very good print of it here (that huge Epson
color inkjet printer we bought at work really does a good job with the
expensive "photo quality" paper in it), and will frame it and hang it
on the wall of my basement machine room in my home.  However (and my
ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture?

-tih
-- 
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"

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From emu at ecubics.com  Fri Jan 22 01:19:45 1999
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 08:19:45 -0700
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
Message-ID: <19990121152024.AAA2583@p2350>

Hi,

----------
> From: Tom Ivar Helbekkmo <tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO>
> To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
> Cc: Unix Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Re: Old pic of ken and dmr
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 1999 10:28 PM

> on the wall of my basement machine room in my home.  However (and my
> ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture?

Dennis is the one with the glasses & beart ... ;-))

cheers,
emu

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From agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu  Fri Jan 22 03:14:02 1999
From: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 12:14:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <8667a1ci6r.fsf@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901211213500.18250-100000@sdb1.cs.fiu.edu>

Thanks a lot. It works now.



*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu
*********************************

On 21 Jan 1999, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote:

> alejandro gonzalez <agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu> writes:
> 
> > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when
> > I get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.
> 
> You're following the wrong instructions.  :-)  Or, at least, you're
> taking them too literally.  You're trying to use the tape the way it
> would be done on a real machine, but it's much easier to just split it
> into disk images under the host UNIX.  Looking in my V6 directory,
> I've got a text file containing something that I believe Warren wrote,
> in a text file accompanying the tape image:
> 
> "This is a copy of the Sixth Edition distribution tape which was sent
> to me by Ken Wellsch. The file v6.tape.gz is the tape image, with the
> first 100 512-byte tape blocks containing tape bootstrap stuff. Blocks
> 100 - 4099 are the RK05 root image, blocks 4100 - 8099 are the /usr
> RK05 image, and the blocks 8100 - 12099 are the /doc RK05 image."
> 
> So what I did with that tape, for Bob Supnik's PDP-11 simulator, was
> to run these commands under the host UNIX:
> 
> 	% gunzip v6.tape.gz
> 	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.root.rk05 count=4000 skip=100
> 	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.usr.rk05 count=4000 skip=4100
> 	% dd if=v6.tape of=v6.doc.rk05 count=4000 skip=8100
> 
> Then, I made a script file for the simulator:
> 
> 	% cat > v6.script
> 	attach rk0 V6.root.rk05
> 	attach rk1 V6.usr.rk05
> 	attach rk2 V6.doc.rk05
> 	boot rk0
> 	^d
> 	%
> 
> ...and finally, I run the resulting system, thus:
> 
> 	% pdp11 v6.script
> 	PDP-11 simulator V2.3
> 	@unix
> 	login:
> 
> I may have had to modify something in the actual UNIX V6 system to
> mount rk1 and rk2 properly -- I don't recall.  You'll figure it out.
> 
> Anyway, the system runs like a charm, and I've successfully rebuilt
> the kernel from sources on it.  Fun!
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> -tih
> -- 
> Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"
> 


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From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Fri Jan 22 04:26:54 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 10:26:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: here's a dumb question
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121101819.30461A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>


OK, so I was at my ISP the other day and after a talk with the owner I
walked home with a bunch of pieces from a microvax II, which I used to
completely pimp out my PDP-11/73...  One of the new pieces is a hard
drive, which allows me to write assembly code with the RSTS/E Macro
Assembler, write them to the hard drive, and boot the system up in
non-RSTSish ways...

I'm new to PDP-11 assembly language, however, and I don't have a really
complete manual...  The general purpose registers are all 16 bits.
Addresses stored in these registers can only point to the first 32K words
of memory.  My PDP has a 512K words of memory.  The only reference I've
seen to this problem was one sentence in one of my manuals that says the
rest of the memory can be addressed through "memory management".  When it
says this, does it mean that there is a separate memory management unit
that I have to control to flip between pages or banks of memory, or are
there extended registers in the CPU itself that allow me to do this?  I
crashed the machine the other day and I noticed that the monitor listed
some registers that started with M...  Could that be what these are for?
(The computer claims to have 22-bit addressing, BTW.)

	-- Erin Corliss




From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jan 22 07:53:01 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 08:53:01 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Old pic of ken and dmr
In-Reply-To: <863e55chzs.fsf@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO> from Tom Ivar Helbekkmo at "Jan 21, 1999  6:28: 7 am"
Message-ID: <199901212153.IAA10891@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Tom Ivar Helbekkmo:
> Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:
> 
> > 	Patrick Regan, from Bell Labs, has sent in a 2M jpg of
> > Ken and Dennis at the console of a PDP-11/20, around 1970.
> 
> That's neat!  I've got a very good print of it here (that huge Epson
> color inkjet printer we bought at work really does a good job with the
> expensive "photo quality" paper in it), and will frame it and hang it
> on the wall of my basement machine room in my home.  However (and my
> ignorance is showing now, I know) who is whom in the picture?

Dennis is the one, bearded, on the left. Ken is sitting at the
terminal.

	Warren


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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Fri Jan 22 08:56:42 1999
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:56:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
Message-ID: <199901212256.OAA16254@mpl.ucsd.edu>

> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Subject: Re: UNIX V6.TAPE
> Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 14:50:59 +1100 (EST)
> 
> In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> > 
> > Can anyone point me to instructions on getting the tape in: Ken_Wellsch_v6
> > up and running on Supnik's Simulator? I have been trying some things, and
> > when it gives me the '=' prompt, anything i type makes the program freeze.
> > 
> > I have been following these instructions, the problem comes up when I
> > get the '=' prompt. I type: "tmrk", it just freezes.
> 
> The 6th Ed installation instructions say: The tape contains 12100 512-byte
> records followed by a single file mark. Have you made the tape image for
> Bob Supnik's emulator to match this, and what configuration file are you
> giving to the emulator?

But the tape image also contains bootstraps for two kinds of tape drives
in the first 100 blocks.  Followed by 3 x 4000-block RK05 images.  More
than this I don't remember offhand, but I do have the "Setting up Unix"
document on a bookshelf somewhere in another office.

> P.S You can use the RK05 disk image in
> Distributions/research/Dennis_v6/v6root.gz, or the RL02 image in
> Bootable_Images/v6_rl02_unknown.gz,
> unless you really do want to install V6 from tape.

The number of people in the world who have actually installed V6 from
tape is probably pretty small.  But I am one of them, for better or worse.

    carl

        carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
        {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl                 cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu
                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu

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From dave at fgh.geac.com.au  Fri Jan 22 10:03:31 1999
From: dave at fgh.geac.com.au (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:03:31 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
In-Reply-To: <199901212256.OAA16254@mpl.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9901221102270.3559-100000@fgh>

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Carl Lowenstein wrote:

> The number of people in the world who have actually installed V6 from
> tape is probably pretty small.  But I am one of them, for better or worse.

Me too :-)  But I've long since forgotten the details...

-- 
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Fri Jan 22 10:36:01 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 16:36:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Memory Management
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>


The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management
scheme.  It says that when the machine is first started, the memory
management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the
segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777
range somewhere)?


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Jan 22 10:39:04 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 11:39:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6.TAPE
Message-ID: <199901220039.LAA11544@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	Here is how to install 6th Edition from the tape image v6.tape.gz
in Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6, onto Bob Supnik's emulator 2.3d:

I found makesimtape.c in Trees/2.11BSD/usr/src/sys/pdpstand in the
PUPS Archive.

	Warren


/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ls -l
total 14822
-rwx------  1 wkt  wheel     6018 Jan 22 11:18 makesimtape
-rwx------  1 wkt  wheel   117728 Jan 11 14:02 pdp
-rw-------  1 wkt  wheel       42 Jan 22 11:27 v6
-r--------  1 wkt  wheel  6195200 Jan 22 11:20 v6.tape
-r--------  1 wkt  wheel  2494464 Jan 15 14:14 v6root
-rw-------  1 wkt  wheel       14 Jan 22 11:23 z

/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: cat z		# Input to makesimtape
v6.tape 1
* 1

/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ./makesimtape -i z -o v6tape
v6.tape: block 0, file 0
					# Output is file v6tape, not shown

/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: cat v6		# Supnik sim config file
set cpu 18b
att rk0 v6root
att tm0 v6tape

/usr/local/src/Sim_2.3d: ./pdp v6	# Run simulator

PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> id 10000-10012			# Toggle in boot code
10000:	012700				# as per V6 install
10002:	172526				# instructions
10004:	010040
10006:	012740
10010:	060003
10012:	000777
sim> g 10000				# Run above boot code
					# After a while, enter ctrl-E
Simulation stopped, PC: 010012 (BR 10012)
sim> g 0				# Restart CPU at location 0
=tmrk
disk offset				# Follow instructions as per
0					# V6 install notes
tape offset
100
count
1
=tmrk
disk offset
1
tape offset
101
count
3999
=					# Enter ctrl-E
Simulation stopped, PC: 137274 (TSTB @#177560)

sim> b rk				# Boot RK device 0
@rkunix					# Choose correct kernel image

login: root
# ls -l
total 244
drwxrwxr-x  2 bin      1104 May 14 00:47 bin
drwxrwxr-x  2 bin      1824 Aug 14 22:04 dev
drwxrwxr-x  2 bin       496 Oct 10 12:29 etc
-rwxrwxrwx  1 root    29074 Oct 10 12:28 hpunix
drwxrwxr-x  2 bin       464 May 13 23:35 lib
drwxrwxr-x  2 bin        32 May 13 20:01 mnt
-rwxrwxrwx  1 root    28836 Oct 10 12:22 rkunix
-rwxrwxrwx  1 root    29020 Oct 10 12:25 rpunix
drwxrwxrwx  2 bin       272 Jul 18 09:19 tmp
-rw-rw-rw-  1 root    28684 Jul 18 09:18 unix
drwxrwxr-x 14 bin       224 May 13 20:16 usr
# sync
# 					# Enter ctrl-E again
Simulation stopped, PC: 016022 (SOB R4,15746)
sim> q
Goodbye

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From dave at fgh.geac.com.au  Fri Jan 22 13:18:36 1999
From: dave at fgh.geac.com.au (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 14:18:36 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Memory Management
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990121163113.412A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.03.9901221417120.3559-100000@fgh>

On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Erin W. Corliss wrote:

> The documentation that Warren gave me describes the memory management
> scheme.  It says that when the machine is first started, the memory
> management unit is disabled -- anyone know how to enable it, and where the
> segmentation registers are (I'm assuming they are in the 0160000-0177777
> range somewhere)?

I'll check my PDP-11 manuals when I get home; if I have a spare one I'll
send it to you.  What was the model again?  An 11/70 or something?

-- 
Dave Horsfall VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493 Fx: +61 2 9978-7422
Geac Computers P/L (FGH Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Fri Jan 22 18:27:12 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 03:27:12 -0500
Subject: Quasijarus Project WWW page set update and change in passwd plans
Message-ID: <199901220827.DAA02071@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have just updated the Quasijarus Project WWW page set, adding the features
page listing all features added to the master source tree since the currently
shipping release. You can find this new page at:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html

I have also changed my plans regarding the shadow and shared passwords. See:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/passwd.html

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Cellular phone: 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 23 10:13:02 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 1999 19:13:02 -0500
Subject: DEC odds and ends
Message-ID: <199901230013.TAA02236@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have just created a new directory in the 4BSD area of the PUPS archive,
Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends.

This directory contains various DEC odds and ends: microcodes, ROM images,
diags, VMS/Ultrix booters and bits, etc.

The following items are currently available:

rabads.core	Ultrix rabads program, pure core version for putting onto
		console media and loading via console commands.

rabads.a.out	Ultrix rabads program, a.out version for putting onto a UNIX
		filesystem and loading via UNIX boot.

scsimfm.bin	EPROM image from the SCSI/MFM daughterboard for KA42.

This list is certain to grow very soon.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Mon Jan 25 15:25:43 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:25:43 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901250525.AAA02814@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear PUPS/TUHS members,

I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware
collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive.

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 440-449-0299
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu


From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Jan 26 09:54:48 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:54:48 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901252354.AA02014@world.std.com>

<I have added the EPROM image from my KA650-B V1.2 CPU to the VAX firmware
<collection in Distributions/4bsd/odds-ends in the PUPS archive.

Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!

Allison


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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 11:25:12 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:25:12 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901260125.UAA03071@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:

> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!

The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends. Why
not have VAX ones too?

But if too many people start complaining, I'll just move the entire odds-ends
directory to one of my friend's _anonymous_ FTP site.

BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Just
look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at the
fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's
copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX and
Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our group
(PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care for
Ancient DEC.

And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally
recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which despite
its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BSD
distributions).

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From emu at ecubics.com  Tue Jan 26 11:21:38 1999
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 18:21:38 -0700
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>

Hi all,
why this version isn't in the pups archive ?

cheers,
emanuel

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Tue Jan 26 12:05:12 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:05:12 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>; from emanuel stiebler on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700
References: <19990126012214.AAA24603@p2350>
Message-ID: <19990125210512.A22884@rek.tjls.com>

On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 06:21:38PM -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> Hi all,
> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
> 
> cheers,
> emanuel

It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.

What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
from CSRG.

Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?  Is it feasible
to do so now?  I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
VAX, using the old VM system?  I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
was the primary development platform, right?  Had the LBL SPARC port
been integrated?

-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls at rek.tjls.com
	"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 12:35:13 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:35:13 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901260235.VAA03105@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

emanuel stiebler <emu at ecubics.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?

Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness
of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick Copeland
has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me.

Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading
_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If not,
please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can
take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK).

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 13:23:32 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:23:32 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901260323.WAA03123@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
> distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.

See my previous posting.

> What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
> time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
> to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
> from CSRG.

You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
tape was pressed.

> Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?

You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
matter.

> Is it feasible
> to do so now?

I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.

> I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
> actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
> VAX, using the old VM system?

I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.

> I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
> was the primary development platform, right?

Yes.

> Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?

Yes.

You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point
in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.

If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.

BTW, it's not just that I suddenly declared myself to be the new CSRG. I earned
this title, not just assumed it. Marshall Kirk McKusick himself (the previous
maintainer of CSRG) acknowledges me as the new principal maintainer and
architect. Oh, and he doesn't even object to my decision to undo all of his and
others' 1988-1995 work with the SCCS Time Machine. He said himself in a private
E-mail that he would love to see the golden old non-bloated system resurrected.

I have used the term "True UNIX" several times in this message. Let me explain
what I mean. While others may view the history of UNIX as a tree (you hear
about UNIX history tree diagrams all the time), I view it as a straight line.
The straight line of _mainstream_ True UNIX development looks like this:

V6 (Bell) -> V7 (Bell) -> 32V (Bell) -> 3BSD (UCB) -> 4.0BSD (UCB) -> 4.1BSD
(UCB) -> 4.2BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe (UCB) ->
4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 (Michael Sokolov) -> future Quasijarus releases (Michael
Sokolov).

For each release the responsible entity is indicated in parentheses. There are
several things worth noting here. Notice how after V7 and 32V the torch of True
UNIX development moves from Bell to UCB, never to return to Bell again. This is
because everything Bell did after that (System V and such) deviates from the
True UNIX ideology and loses the True UNIX torch. In late 1970s or early 1980s
UCB picks up this torch and carries it until 1988. In 1988 UCB starts deviating
from True UNIX too with the evil spirit of POSIX and everything, and loses the
torch. The torch was laying on the ground from that point until the 27th of
December 1998 when I picked it up with the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release. Now I'm
carrying it into the next millennium.

Check out the Quasijarus Project WWW page referenced in my mail signature.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Tue Jan 26 13:17:05 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:17:05 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901260317.AA02518@world.std.com>

<> Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
<
<The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends.
<not have VAX ones too?

Yes but, not copyrighted firmware.  The KA650 B V1.2 firmware is not 
released or granted publication that I know of and the straw horse of, 
"well, PDP-xx is here" is not the issue.

<BTW, there is a long tradition of shipping DEC odds and ends with UNIX. Jus
<look at pcs750.bin, or at DEC-contributed device drivers in 4.3BSD, or at t

There is a distinct difference between DEC contributed and the KA650 rom 
image.

<fact that if you do a strings(1) on 4.3BSD /genvmunix, you'll see DEC's
<copyright and the word "ULTRIX" in a whole bunch of places. Ancient UNIX an
<Ancient DEC live together very well. Please don't separate them. If our gro
<(PUPS/TUHS) loves and cares for Ancient UNIX, we should also love and care 
<Ancient DEC.

It is neither the point nor applicable.  It's a specious arguement in an 
attempt to not respect the copyrighted firmware on the CPU card that is
not distributed.  The fact that DEC and unix go well is not the issue 
either.

<And finally, some of the files in my odds-ends directory were originally
<recovered from some BSD distribution (the ULTRIX rabads program, which desp
<its DEC copyright, ULTRIX origin, and binary-only nature came with some BS
<distributions).

I doubt that the KA650 bootrom image was in there as original distribution.
If the system is a KA650 it would be available on the system and if it is 
not it's meaningless.  My comment earlier was directly and specifically 
aimed at the KA650 B V1.2 Eprom image.

The problem is that failure to respect the copyrights and ownerships of 
any code, especially firmware could lead to vendors taking a future 
hostile stance to the work of PUPS.  That would be very undesireable.

Allison



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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 14:50:33 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:50:33 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901260450.XAA03161@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is to
establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision for
every machine supported by my UNIX system. Why? As you may remember from our
extensive phone discussions, UNIX is quite picky about which hardware to run
on. In many cases (on a 730, for example), UNIX won't boot if the firmware is
below the minimum required revision. I know for sure that this is the case on
730, 8200, and if James Lothian's WCS changes get integrated, 750. It will also
be the case on BabyVAXen when I get around to supporting them. Now, so far I
haven't heard any reports of UNIX refusing to boot on KA650s with early
microcode revisions, but one may come in at some point. Since my KA650 runs
UNIX right now, I know for sure that at least my version of the firmware is
UNIX-friendly. By making it available to other 4.3BSD-Quasijarus users (note
that keeping the microcode repository within the PUPS archive has the advantage
of giving the images out only to Ancient UNIX enthusiasts, i.e., only to those
who really need them), I can make sure that the greatest possible number of
people can benefit from my 4.3BSD-Quasijarus work.

Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcode
updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragbag of
DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. Soon
UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TMSCP
tapes on large VAXen. Yes, there is one distributed with the machine itself,
but it's too old. UNIX requires a very recent version, and if I want my OS to
be viable, there will simply be no other choice but to distribute VMB.EXE. Or
look at BI-bus machines. There were two different BI network cards made, DEBNA
and DEBNI. They have the same hardware, but different EPROMs. DEBNA is the
older one and DEBNI is the newer one. They have completely different software
interfaces, and DEBNI is a lot simpler to program. Right now UNIX doesn't
support any BI network cards. Suppose I decide to add this support. Given how
hard it is to find documentation, write drivers, and test them, what do you
think, will I welcome the idea of writing two drivers instead of one? Rather
than spend months hunting for a BVP manual and writing a DEBNA driver, it's
much easier to write a driver for DEBNI only (much simpler software interface)
and tell DEBNA users to upgrade their boards to DEBNI. The catch is, if you are
getting your 8200 or whatever for free, you don't get to choose which network
card to use, you take what you can find. But with me keeping the repository of
all important EPROM images and microcode patch files, the poor DEBNA user can
just download the image, borrow an EPROM blaster, and run his free VAX with a
UNIX-supported DEBNI!

The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and want
to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmware
upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff it
would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor VAX
UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshooting
support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Tue Jan 26 14:43:10 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:43:10 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260323.WAA03123@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500
References: <199901260323.WAA03123@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990125234310.A1809@rek.tjls.com>

On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> 
> > It would be nice to have the pre-4.4 (was it 4.4-alpha?) and 4.4BSD
> > distributions, as shipped by CSRG, in the archive.
> 
> See my previous posting.
> 
> > What would be even nicer would be the entire system as of the last
> > time it was touched -- the AT&T-encumbered system which would correspond
> > to the free 4.4BSD-Lite2 distribution which was the last public output
> > from CSRG.
> 
> You'll get exactly this if you order Marshall Kirk McKusick's CSRG Archives
> CD-ROM set. The last CD-ROM is the image of CSRG's master /usr/src as it
> existed on the last second of CSRG's existence, one hour after the 4.4BSD-Lite2
> tape was pressed.
> 
> > Did anyone ever build a distribution of such a system?
> 
> You mean binary distribution? Well, the machine the master /usr/src was stored
> on ran this system presumably, so I guess the binaries you want existed at some
> point. Whether they have been preserved anywhere is an entirely different
> matter.
> 
> > Is it feasible
> > to do so now?
> 
> I suppose so. The best way to do it would probably be to bootstrap from the
> 4.4BSD tape and then recompile the system from the new source tree.
> 
> > I don't have a firm grasp on which architectures would
> > actually compile and run as of that point in the SCCS files -- would
> > VAX, using the old VM system?
> 
> I also have a very vague idea of what exactly can 4.4BSD-* run on. But
> definitely not VAX or Tahoe. There is no old VM in the 4.4BSD-* tree, and the
> kernel architecture has changed so much between 4.3BSD and 4.4BSD that back-
> porting it is not something I would volunteer to do.
> 
> > I'd assume hp300 would work, since it
> > was the primary development platform, right?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > Had the LBL SPARC port been integrated?
> 
> Yes.
> 
> You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to
> bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point

My interest is not in "resurrecting CSRG".  If I were into that kind of thing
I'd just join Jews For Jesus.  My interest is pretty much purely historical.

> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
> 
> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.

I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
at least, a waste of time.  But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
encourage you to do it, I suppose.

All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
set is horrifying to contemplate.

Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like.  History is history.  Pretending
to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
done.  At least that's my personal take on it.

I think you'd find a substantial number of people who thought that the
"True UNIX" line ran through either SunOS 4 or 9th and 10th Edition, were
you to take a poll of as many wizards as you could summon.  But it's a silly
thing to argue about, which is why I'll assert no position at all on that
issue.  Similarly, I have no interest in arguing about Common LISP
versus Scheme or vi versus Emacs.  Please don't tempt me with a discussion
of X versus MGR or C versus C++ and I'll avoid lecturing at you about
_my_ religious hot buttons. :-)


-- 
Thor Lancelot Simon	                                      tls at rek.tjls.com
	"And where do all these highways go, now that we are free?"

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jan 26 14:56:59 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:26:59 +1030
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <19990125234310.A1809@rek.tjls.com>; from Thor Lancelot Simon on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:43:10PM -0500
References: <199901260323.WAA03123@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> <19990125234310.A1809@rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <19990126152659.I66239@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:43:10 -0500, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 10:23:32PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from
>> True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock
>> back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's
>> post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor.
>>
>> If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official
>> maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further
>> development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD
>> never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX
>> release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm
>> maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true
>> successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am.
>
> All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
> a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> set is horrifying to contemplate.
>
> Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> project have taken up the mantle of CSRG and mucked around with that symbol,
> nor released "4.5BSD" "5BSD", or the like.  History is history.  Pretending
> to be an organization which doesn't exist... gets very little useful work
> done.  At least that's my personal take on it.

Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jan 26 15:01:02 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:31:02 +1030
Subject: Licensed microcode (was: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image)
In-Reply-To: <199901260450.XAA03161@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:50:33PM -0500
References: <199901260450.XAA03161@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990126153102.J66239@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday, 25 January 1999 at 23:50:33 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK?

I think one aspect of a practical viewpoint is to acknowledge that
there are laws relating to proprietary code.  It's not practical to
break these laws, no matter what you may think of them.

> One of my goals is to establish a repository containing the latest
> available microcode revision for every machine supported by my UNIX
> system.

Fine.  Then negotiate with the owners of the microcode.  I'd guess
that it wouldn't be as difficult as with the AU licenses.  But don't
endanger others with your views on legality.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From rickgc at calweb.com  Wed Jan 13 16:13:50 1999
From: rickgc at calweb.com (Rick Copeland)
Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:13:50 -0800
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990112221347.006a9f90@pop.calweb.com>

No problem!




At 09:35 PM 1/25/99 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>emanuel stiebler <emu at ecubics.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>> why this version isn't in the pups archive ?
>
>Generally it's my job as the TUHS 4BSD coordinator to ensure the completeness
>of TUHS 4BSD collection, but right now I can't do anything, since Rick
Copeland
>has Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes, not me.
>
>Rick, would you please decide whether or not you are interested in reading
>_ALL_ of Marshall Kirk McKusick's tapes? If you are, please read them. If
not,
>please return them to Kirk so that someone more industrious and motivated can
>take a stab at them (I have Kirk's OK).
>
>Michael Sokolov
>TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
>4.3BSD-* Maintainer
>Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
>Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
>ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
>TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
>Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/
>
>

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 17:44:55 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:44:55 -0500
Subject: VAX EPROM upgrades
Message-ID: <199901260744.CAA03238@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Dear VAX users,

Due to the storm of protests, the method of distribution of VAX EPROM upgrades
has changed from the PUPS archive to direct uuencoded E-mail. If you require an
EPROM upgrade for your VAX in order to run a UNIX software distribution
obtained from me, please contant me via ARPA Internet SMTP mail and I will send
you the EPROM image, compressed and uuencoded. I currently have the images for
KA650-B V1.2 and KA42 SCSI/MFM daughterboard.

The VAX odds and ends directory in the PUPS archive will still contain the
soft-loaded microcode files and booters, which have already been freely
distributed with different VAX UNIX systems (either 4.3BSD-* or BSD
derivatives like MIT's Athena-4.3BSD).

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 18:40:19 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:40:19 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901260840.DAA03265@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
> at least, a waste of time.  But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
> encourage you to do it, I suppose.

You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
supposed to be driven.

> All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
> a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> set is horrifying to contemplate.

Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD
to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of
arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like
4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup
systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe.

> Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]

Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.

> History is history.

Yes, history is history, and I respect it as such. I'm not trying to abuse my
write access to the 4BSD collection and maliciously modify some preserved tape
image without anyone's knowledge. However, there is nothing in the world that
prevents a developer from creating a new version of system from an old one. If
there is an SCCS file with deltas ranging from 1.1 to 7.16, there is absolutely
nothing in the world preventing a developer with legitimate authorized write
access to that file from checking in delta 7.17. I am a legitimate authorized
Berkeley UNIX developer (actually the principal one at the present time). My
title as the principal maintainer has been legitimized and blessed by the
previous CSRG maintainer.

> Pretending
> to be an organization which doesn't exist...

First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and
authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems
Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could
conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely
confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that.

> [...] gets very little useful work done.

Check out the Quasijarus features page:

http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html

So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less
than a month ago.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 18:40:40 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 03:40:40 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901260840.DAA03267@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:

> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.

That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even yours. BSDI has
no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents of University of
California. The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted
modification and distribution of modified versions. Incrementing the version
number is one of the most natural operations a developer modifying the system
can do. If I were to use CSRG's final 1995 code as my starting point, I would
indeed call my system 4.5BSD, and I would have the full right to do so. The
only reason I do not and cannot call my system 4.5BSD, 5BSD, or whatever is
because I'm tmachining the SCCS tree back to 1988, nullifying 4.4BSD.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jan 26 18:49:16 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:19:16 +1030
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03267@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:40AM -0500
References: <199901260840.DAA03267@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990126191916.A66239@freebie.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at  3:40:40 -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
>
>> Now you mention this, I seem to remember that BSDI registered the name
>> BSD as a trade mark, so you wouldn't be able to even if you wanted to.
>
> That's nonsense. You can't trademark something that isn't even
> yours. 

You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.

> BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents
> of University of California.

Of course they have.  The rights are described in the Berkeley
License.

> The BSD license agreement explicitly allows unrestricted
> modification and distribution of modified versions.

Precisely.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Tue Jan 26 20:08:17 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:08:17 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901261008.FAA03320@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:

> You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.

But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some
twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I
suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and
will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been
using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly
decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using
it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in
full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is
still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the
Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer
version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to
modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of
becoming the new principal maintainer.

> > BSDI has no rights whatsoever to the code copyrighted by the Regents
> > of University of California.
>
> Of course they have.  The rights are described in the Berkeley
> License.

I meant that they have no exclusive rights. They have no right to say what I
can or cannot do with the UC Berkeley system. Once Berkeley gave me and
everyone else the rights to redistribute and modify, no one can take these
rights away from me. Not even UC Berkeley itself, since I didn't sign any
agreements that they could terminate.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Tue Jan 26 13:20:46 1999
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:20:46 +0800
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500
References: <199901261008.FAA03320@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990126112046.D496@krdl.org.sg>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
> because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
> original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some
> twit decides to trademark the name Michael Sokolov, that doesn't mean that I
> suddenly have to change my name. I have had this name for all my 19 years and
> will keep it for as long as I live. The same with BSD. UC Berkeley has been
> using this name for 15 years. Just because some phased BSDI twit suddenly
> decided to trademark it doesn't mean that Berkeley suddenly has to stop using
> it. True, I am not UC Berkeley, but I am working on UC Berkeley's system in
> full compliance with Berkeley's license terms. Since the UC Berkeley system is
> still called BSD, so is mine, since my system is just a newer version of the
> Berkeley one. My right, both legal and ethical, to call my system a newer
> version of BSD or Berkeley UNIX stems from the right to modify. The right to
> modify includes _any_ kind of development work, including the possiblity of
> becoming the new principal maintainer.

Well, not sure I should actually drop into the discussion of experts, but ...
I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years. It was the group of
people around Bill Joy, and later Kirk McKusick (many important names omitted)
that had to write *something* onto the tapes shipped with the software. That
is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no
such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)".
You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it.

BSDI is residing in the commercial world. I'm unsure about the motivations for
the trademark (I lost contact with BSDI around the time they renamed the system
BS/DOS), but I'm pretty sure that Rob Kolstad and colleagues meant it to protect
the name against another commercial use as pure "BSD". It is not meant against
any freeware *BSD (reading FreeBSD sources you might figure that some of the
BSDI team members, namely Mike Karels and Kirk McKusick, have actually made
contributions to the freeware effort). And since the core team of BSDI today
consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they
keep calling their work BSD ? They have done an excellent job and everybody
(including Sun and recently other SVR4 folks) acknowledges their contributions.

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041	Fax:   +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace		Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613			Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Tue Jan 26 20:42:06 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:42:06 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500
References: <199901260840.DAA03265@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990126054206.A13245@rek.tjls.com>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> 
> You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
> UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
> supposed to be driven.
> 

When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know.  It won't even
run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
time soon.  But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least.  I
want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining
about.  I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and
a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC,
which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable.  So any system
you produce is not likely to be useful to me.  Let's agree to disagree
about this.

> > All that I ask is that you not touch the value of the "BSD" symbol which is
> > exposed to the userland C namespace.  The chaos which would ensue should
> > a "later" version of BSD appear which didn't support the full 4.4BSD feature
> > set is horrifying to contemplate.
> 
> Don't worry, I'm not planning on doing that. Although I do not consider 4.4BSD
> to be True UNIX, I do acknowledge that it exists, and I do respect the laws of
> arithmetics and sequential numbering, so I don't plan on using numbers like
> 4.5BSD or 5BSD. Instead, I follow CSRG's own convention of calling 4.3-followup
> systems 4.3BSD-BlahBlahBlah, just like they did with 4.3BSD-Tahoe.

You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value
of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release?  I'm just asking
that you be careful not to produce a system which would be difficult to
distinguish from other systems with a very different feature matrix.

> 
> > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
> 
> Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.

Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to
respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with.  As
I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares?  There's certainly room
for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.

[...]
> First of all, I didn't say "I'm CSRG", I said that I am CSRG's legitimate and
> authorized successor. Second, there is nothing in the words "Computer Systems
> Research Group" that is limited to Berkeley. Any group of researchers could
> conceivably come up with that name. However, doing that would be extremely
> confusing, therefore, I don't want to do that.

I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite
like that, but whatever.  You might not want to say things like that in
the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair
number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they
did.  But that free advice is probably worth what you paid for it.

> Check out the Quasijarus features page:
> 
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/features.html
> 
> So far the list is not that long, but keep in mind that the work started less
> than a month ago.

It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX.

Thor

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Tue Jan 26 20:43:58 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:43:58 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261008.FAA03320@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500
References: <199901261008.FAA03320@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990126054358.B13245@rek.tjls.com>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 05:08:17AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
> 
> > You can trademark anything that hasn't already been trademarked.
> 
> But if a system has already existed under a certain name for 15 years, just
> because some twit suddenly decided to trademark it doesn't mean that the
> original author and copyright owner suddenly has to change its name. If some

You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least
by extension, Mike Karels?


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From agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu  Tue Jan 26 23:27:15 1999
From: agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu (alejandro gonzalez)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:27:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <199901260317.AA02518@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000@dizzy.cs.fiu.edu>


Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
the orginial distribution

The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
etc.. 

Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?

Thanks alot,
Alex


*********************************
Alejandro Gonzalez
HPDRC Research Assistant
NASA Regional Application Center
agonza24 at cs.fiu.edu
*********************************



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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 27 05:44:12 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:44:12 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901261944.OAA03412@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Joerg B. Micheel <joerg at krdl.org.sg> wrote:

> I don't think UCB has been using this term for 15 years.

1995 - 1980 = 15

1980 is the year of the 3BSD release, the first release from CSRG that's an
actual operating system kernel and not just a package of userland enhancements.
If you include the latter (1BSD and 2BSD) too, it'll be more than 15 years.

> That
> is because research is a different world from commercial efforts. There is no
> such thing as "this is BSD / not BSD" as compared to the "one true JAVA(tm)".
> You cannot steal BSD, you can only contribute to it.

That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.

Marshall Kirk McKusick tells me that he started the same way: first a
contributor, then the principal maintainer. He didn't just assume the title, he
earned it. I followed the same path. I have been doing miscellaneous work in
preparation for this project for the past 3 years. I became the principal
maintainer and architect only when I actually started doing this job, i.e.,
maintaining the master SCCS tree and making architectural decisions.

I have a proposal: Let's end this pointless flame war. Titles are earned, not
assumed. So far the only people participating in it are the ones who have never
actually tried my system on a VAX. It's funny that you guys started challenging
my maintainer job only now and not when I made my first release a month ago.
When I made my release, there was absolutely no dissent from anyone. Instead, I
was getting direct E-mails from several people asking me how to install it on
their VAXen. There is only one way to earn the high title of the principal
maintainer: do a good job at it. The former CSRG folks certainly did this. If
you believe that I haven't done anough for VAX BSD to earn the title of its
maintainer, how about ending this flame war and letting me go back to work so
that I can do my job and prove myself with deeds instead of words?

> And since the core team of BSDI today
> consist of people formerly involved in BSD, what problem should there be they
> keep calling their work BSD ?

No problem at all! All I'm saying is that despite what someone has suggested,
they have no authority to bar others from doing the same.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 27 05:44:34 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:44:34 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901261944.OAA03415@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> You do understand that the "some twit" you're talking about is, at least
> by extension, Mike Karels?

Why? He is not trying to tell me that I can't do my job. I have nothing against
him and BSDI, and since he has never voiced any protests against my work, I'm
assuming that he has nothing against it either.

What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
universally agreed to be unethical.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 27 05:45:04 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:45:04 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901261945.OAA03418@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know.  It won't even
> run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
> time soon.

Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.

If you want to speed it up, tell me what hardware do you have, and maybe then
we can replace this flame war with a fruitful technical discussion of its
buses, devices, and registers, eventually culminating with writing of the
necessary drivers. The primary difficulty with expanding hardware support is
the lack of hardware. If you have the hardware and want it supported, volunteer
to be a guinea pig for driver testing. I already have several ideas on how to
add support for certain machines, and if someone volunteers to be a guinea pig,
I will be happy to send him/her some code to try firing up.

Oh, BTW, it should already be possible to run my system's userland on almost
every VAX ever made by running it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Ultrix is a close
4.3BSD derivative, and its system calls are a proper superset of the 4.3BSD
ones. Ultrix runs 4.3BSD binaries natively, without invoking any special
"emulation" or "compatibility code", since every syscall that is native for
4.3BSD is also native for Ultrix. A system composed of an Ultrix kernel and the
userland from my latest release (without recompilation!) should run even better
than pure Ultrix.

> But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
> is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least.

No, this is not my definition.

> I
> want support for the hardware I own

This will be done if you are willing to cooperate.

> and features like mmap() and NFS.

Sorry about mmap(), but I definitely will implement NFS.

> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're
> complaining about.

Hardware support expansion, NFS, and even mmap() affect the kernel only.
4.3BSD-Reno blows up the userland by a factor 2, and 4.4BSD is even worse.

> You do understand that "CSRG's own convention" involved increasing the value
> of the "BSD" symbol in the user namespace with each release?

I just checked, and CSRG did not bump this symbol for the 4.3BSD-Tahoe release,
it still says 43, just like for plain 4.3BSD. If CSRG didn't bump it for Tahoe,
I don't have to bump it for Quasijarus either.

> As
> I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
> you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
> from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares?  There's certainly room
> for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.

I'm being combative only when others are. If someone challenges my job as the
current principal maintainer of Berkeley VAX UNIX, I have to defend it, that's
all.

> I personally don't read the statement "If you want CSRG, here I am" quite
> like that, but whatever.  You might not want to say things like that in
> the future if you don't want to confuse and possibly irritate a fair
> number of people who have a great deal of respect for CSRG and what they
> did.

I respectfully disagree. I'm not taking any credit away from CSRG, but just
because Marshall Kirk McKusick and his fellows no longer do this job doesn't
mean that I can't do it. As I said, Kirk has practically passed the torch to me
himself.

> It's nice to see someone working on any Berkeley UNIX.

Exactly, and let's switch from flames to something more useful so that I and
other 4.3BSD-* contributors can do our jobs and prove ourselves with deeds
instead of words.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/


From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan 27 06:36:49 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:36:49 +0100 (MET)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <19990126054206.A13245@rek.tjls.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990126212833.23686C-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:

Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
here I go again...

> On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 03:40:19AM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> > Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> > 
> > You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> > prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> > eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe, my True UNIX is the only
> > UNIX system that is really a VAX OS and can truly drive a VAX the way it's
> > supposed to be driven.

I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
you have.

> When it "drives" most VAXen, I encourage you to let me know.  It won't even
> run on most of the VAXen I have, and I don't expect that to change any
> time soon.  But if your definition of "the way it's supposed to be driven"
> is "not at all", I guess I have no quibble with your logic, at least.  I
> want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
> Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're complaining
> about.  I also want some user-convenience features like dynamic libraries and
> a compiler that can actually optimize code worth a damn, even if it's GCC,
> which I think you'd probably find even more objectionable.  So any system
> you produce is not likely to be useful to me.  Let's agree to disagree
> about this.

No, Solokov isn't likely to please you.

> > > Despite the great temptation to do so, neither the NetBSD nor the FreeBSD
> > > project have taken up the mantle of CSRG [...]
> > 
> > Excellent! This gives me the luxury of being free from competitors.
> 
> Look, if you're going to mixmaster my text like this, I'm not about to
> respond to yours any more and give you more material to play with.  As
> I said, I have an interest in old Unices mostly for historical reasons;
> you appear to have an interest because you want to branch new development
> from them -- fine, that's as may be, who cares?  There's certainly room
> for both points of view, and I fail to see why you're being so combative.

Solokov has in the past been more than just combative. I'd say he's more
or less on the hate list of a lot of people on the NetBSD/vax list for
raving all the time. He finally ceased posting there, to most everyones
relief.
Unfortunately he started posting here instead.

Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
secondary issue to me, and historical Unix isn't my playfield.

The other option would be to get out of this list totally, but some people
actually need help with pdp-11 stuff, and there I can contribute.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan 27 06:52:00 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:52:00 +0100 (MET)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261945.OAA03418@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990126215000.23686D-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:

> Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
> is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
> do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.

FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
Only VMS does.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jan 27 08:23:31 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901262223.OAA13198@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi Johnny -

> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> Sigh. I guess I shouldn't get into a new squabble with/over Solokov, but
> here I go again...

	Netbsd's mailing list was rendered unreadable for quite a while ;-(

> I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
> Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs

	I maintain the opposite.  VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
	VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen.  Since DEC
	is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
	the winner/driver.  Are Vaxen even being made any longer?  The ALPHA
	is what is driving Compaq/dec now.

> > I want support for the hardware I own, and features like mmap() and NFS.
> > Between those, I think you'll find quite a bit of the bloat you're ...

	Amen!  Adding NFS to the kernel about doubles the size of the kernel.

> Unfortunately he started posting here instead.

	;-(

> Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
> Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
> foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a

	Hear hear!  PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
	although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have 
	their own forums though).  I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
	posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
	tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".

	Steven Schultz

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 08:26:24 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:26:24 +1100 (EST)
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
In-Reply-To: <199901260125.UAA03071@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 25, 1999  8:25:12 pm"
Message-ID: <199901262226.JAA05633@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Michael Sokolov:
> allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent) wrote:
> 
> > Get that out of there fast, it's copyrighted firmware!
> 
> The PUPS archive already contains some PDP-11 boot/diag/etc. odds and ends.
> Why not have VAX ones too?

Just some clarification here. There is a section in the PUPS Archive
which is not readily accesible to normal S/Key users of the archive.
This is mainly used by those volunteers who are helping to distribute
the archive, and for other sundry stuff.

If a volunteer puts something in there which is copyright, then they
must understand that the legal responsibility is theirs and theirs alone.
The same thing applies to the main archive.

I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
software license.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 08:36:27 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:36:27 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
Message-ID: <199901262236.JAA05730@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Just my $0.02 worth.

I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly to
give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases onto
the CD set.

I am always prepared to distribute sub-parts of the 4CD set to people if
they want it, and I'd be very happy to put into the PUPS Archive the most
popular 4BSD releases. In fact, this has been done, to some extent.

I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
recompensed for his work.

However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to see,
and it will be added!

Cheers,
	Warren

P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.
Thanks.

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 08:38:32 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:38:32 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.9901260824400.19662-100000@dizzy.cs.fiu.edu> from alejandro gonzalez at "Jan 26, 1999  8:27:15 am"
Message-ID: <199901262238.JAA05749@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by alejandro gonzalez:
> 
> Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
> distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
> the orginial distribution
> 
> The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
> etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
> 
> Alex

All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.

	Warren


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 08:44:19 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:44:19 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Split of PUPS mail list??
Message-ID: <199901262244.JAA05790@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.

Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.

Many thanks,

	Warren

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From emu at ecubics.com  Wed Jan 27 09:20:17 1999
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:20:17 -0700
Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
Message-ID: <19990126232114.AAA10955@p2350>

Hi,

----------
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> To: Unix Heritage Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Why not 4.4BSD?
> Date: Tuesday, January 26, 1999 3:36 PM

> I haven't moved the majority of 4BSD stuff into the PUPS Archive mainly
to
> give Kirk a chance to sell his 4 CD set containing all the CSRG releases.
> He's done a lot of hard work a) writing BSD code over the years and
> b) finding, transcribing from tape, and organising the various releases
onto
> the CD set.

That's the explanation i waited for, and i understand that.
 
> I would resist the urge to distribute the entire CSRG collection either
> via media or through the on-line archive, at least until Kirk has been
> recompensed for his work.

NO problem with that.
 
> However, Emanuel let me know exactly which 4BSD release you'd like to
see,
> and it will be added!

Sorry, for the "noise" following my I thought "simple" question. I only
wanted to know, why the 4.4 releases were not in the archive. They are part
of the AU license anyway, and i thought, they are missing.

> P.S Also, a plea for unity w.r.t this mailing list, or at the very least
> a sense of restraint and _understanding_ of other people's viewpoints.

I prefer one list, THIS one. The problems we had in the last 24 hours are
my fault.
Sorry for this, i should know that sometimes a "dumb" question start a
flame/war about color/religions & BSD versions.

Sorry about this.
emanuel

So a now PLEASE back to our business, enjoying our nice PDP's ;-))

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From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk  Wed Jan 27 09:46:16 1999
From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:46:16 +0000
Subject: Split of PUPS mail list??
In-Reply-To: <199901262244.JAA05790@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
References: <199901262244.JAA05790@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Nws0nOAIPlr2EwLA@falstaf.demon.co.uk>

In message <199901262244.JAA05790 at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes
>All,
>       Both Steven Schultz and Johnny Billquist have suggested a split
>of the existing PUPS mailing list into a number of mailing lists. As the
>maintainer of the list, I am not in a position to force a decision either
>way: instead, I think it should be driven by the list members.
>
>Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
>post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
>
>Many thanks,
>
>       Warren
FWITW

I vote for a split, if only to make the filing easier.  If people feel
as strongly as some do about not wanting one of the lists then fine,
that makes it easier.

Something similar is in place at NetBSD if you want just notices, posts
on one type of OS or whatever.

Cheers

Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ    Old computers and radios always welcome

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Jan 27 10:14:00 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:14:00 +0100 (MET)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901262223.OAA13198@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990127010122.29540B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> Hi Johnny -

Hi there, Steven.

> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > I'd argue that VMS is the true driver of VAXen, and nothing else...
> > Unix is kindof a side track altogether. No matter what religious beliefs
> 
> 	I maintain the opposite.  VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
> 	VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen.  Since DEC
> 	is defunct and VMS is effectively no longer, I'd argue that UNIX is
> 	the winner/driver.  Are Vaxen even being made any longer?  The ALPHA
> 	is what is driving Compaq/dec now.

Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)
Let's just say that VAXen are still being sold, as far as I know. VMS are
still being sold. However COMPAQ sure don't push for VAXen, so I expect
them to die soon. Alpha is the main target of VMS these days for sure. But
there still exists VAXen that no Unix can run, leaving only VMS. And also,
some stuff just isn't utilized that well under Ultrix, which means VMS is
the more developed, and supported OS.

While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,
relying on a separate, manual program for it.

And let's not rack down on Ken Olsen and what he said/didn't say here. :-)

> > Couldn't we do a real split of the pdp-11-stuff, and all other historical
> > Unix stuff. I'm really not interested in historical Unix. I'm first and
> > foremost interested in pdp-11, that's why I got into this list. Unix is a
> 
> 	Hear hear!  PUPS started out with the emphasis on PDP-11s based UNIX
> 	although other OSs would be welcome (the RT11 and RSTS folks have 
> 	their own forums though).  I doubt anyone would be upset if someone
> 	posted an RSX11D question to PUPS but I think many of us are getting
> 	tired of a proposed new/wonderous "4.4BSD".

Me for one wouldn't mind, even if I think the correct forum would be
info-pdp11, but then again, people usually seem happy to just find *any*
forum for pdp-11 stuff.
I don't mind talking about V[0-7] here, even though they are older than
2.11BSD, but really, BSD[3,4] isn't what I'm in here for.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 27 10:40:23 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:40:23 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901270040.TAA03506@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE> wrote:

> > Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. There
                              ^^^^^^
> > is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, could
> > do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.
>
> FYI. Ultrix don't support every VAX ever made.
> Only VMS does.

See the line of carets up there.

BTW, if someone with the hardware were willing to be a guinea pig, I would
readily add support for KA660 and KA670, making 4.3BSD-Quasijarus support even
MORE hardware than Ultrix in this particular area.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Wed Jan 27 10:41:17 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:41:17 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901270041.TAA03508@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> wrote:

> I would definitely recommend that the firmware image is removed from the
> PUPS Archive until it can be legally distributed to people without a DEC
> software license.

Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
compressed and uuencoded.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jan 27 10:35:41 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:35:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901270035.QAA13940@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> Johnny Billquist
> Hmmm. This could well degenerate into a squabble. ;-)

	Yeah, it could.  So enough said and (hopefully) it stops now.

> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,

	MSCP BBR is _hard_ and not documented well (or not documented at all).
	Come to think of it MSCP in general is difficult and not documented
	very well (Chris Torek's comments in the 'ra.c' driver are fun to
	read;)).

	Best solution I've found is to use a SCSI<->MSCP adaptor and let
	the adaptor do the BBR <g>

	Steven

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Wed Jan 27 11:38:19 1999
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:38:19 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <990126203819.2020009f@trailing-edge.com>

> While I run Unix on the VAXen I have, I sure wish someone had implemented
> the MSCP BBR stuff for instance. Not event Ultrix does it properly,

If you look at the commented sources for the DEC OS's, you'll see that
it took them several minor version releases in order to get bad block
replacement working passably.  And there still remain
situations that aren't handled well even in the best implementations.

Tim.

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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Wed Jan 27 05:12:31 1999
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:12:31 +0800
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03412@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500
References: <199901261944.OAA03412@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990127031231.H496@krdl.org.sg>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:12PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> That's exactly what I'm arguing! This is not a fight, this is research OS
> development. I'm not stealing BSD, I'm contributing to it. Volunteering to do
> the job of the principal maintainer of 4.3BSD-*, which no one has done since
> 1988, is one of the greatest contributions one can make.

Great. I'm glad we have you around to follow this mission.

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041	Fax:   +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace		Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613			Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Wed Jan 27 05:16:53 1999
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:16:53 +0800
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901261944.OAA03415@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500
References: <199901261944.OAA03415@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990127031653.I496@krdl.org.sg>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 02:44:34PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the government's
> oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstruct
> my work, I would defend myself by any means I have, and i would have the full
> moral right to call that person or organization a twit. This is the non-profit
> software development world we are talking about, and in this world people are
> supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work of a
> non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
> universally agreed to be unethical.

As I tried to explain earlier, nobody is actually doing that, not even attempting.
BSDI lives in the commercial world and they have been protecting their work against
other *commercial* use. On the *research* side, those same BSDI team members (again
citing Mike Karels, Kirk McKusick and possibly others) keep *actively* supporting
*BSD. There is no clash as such. People are *very* reasonable, especially when it
comes to open technology, they have been in that business for long and appreciate
it's value and impact.

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041	Fax:   +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace		Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613			Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Wed Jan 27 05:38:21 1999
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg B. Micheel)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:38:21 +0800
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
In-Reply-To: <199901270041.TAA03508@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500
References: <199901270041.TAA03508@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990127033821.K496@krdl.org.sg>

On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 07:41:17PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Presently there are no EPROM images on minnie. However, I'm far from the idea
> of denying my users the firmware upgrades they need just because of some stupid
> copyrights held by a company that doesn't even exist any more, so if you have
> an actual need for one of the EPROM images I have, I can E-mail it to you
> compressed and uuencoded.

With a different tone and manner people at Compaq/DEC might actually be quite
willing to support archival of their work (which is protected by law) for the
purpose of tracking history. It never hurts to show curtesy and ask politely.
If I were you, especially as the maintainer of CSRG work, I'd certainly give
it a try ...

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 8742582
Kent Ridge Digital Labs, Rm 3-65, C041	Fax:   +65 7744990
21 Heng Mui Keng Terrace		Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore 119613			Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
Republic of Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 12:51:07 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:51:07 +1100 (EST)
Subject: PUPS Mail list: rules of behaviour
Message-ID: <199901270251.NAA01515@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

All,
	I hate to do this, however I think we could do with just a few
rules of behaviour for the PUPS mail list. Here we go...

1) The mailing list is for discussion on various topic areas related to
   UNIX history, its development, care and feeding of all UNIX systems and
   their hardware, and announcements of useful information related to the
   above.  It is generally inclusive, rather than exclusive. However....

2) There should be little or no discussion of major systems' development,
   including announcements of new versions. Instead, systems developers
   should create a communications channel to target their own audience.
   For example, 2.11BSD has the newsgroup comp.bugs.2bsd.

   To that end, I have just created a mailing list for Quasijarus,
   quasijarus at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au, and associated Majordomo structures.
   Quasijarus users should join this list so that developments and
   announcements about this system can reach them.

   In other words, interested parties are expected to monitor these 
   mailing lists or newsgroups, in order to follow development and
   announcements.

3) Discussion is to be civil and not religious, where possible. There
   have been a large number of UNIX systems and flavours. There is no
   single `best' system.

4) Offensive postings: if a person's mail postings offends someone,
   then they should email me, the list maintainer. If I get a number
   of complaints, I will ask the original author to not be so offensive.
   If I need to warn a person twice, then I will begin to censor their
   list postings.

I will repost this message if/when it becomes necessary. I am still
collection suggestions with regards to the charter of the list and if
we need to make separate lists etc. The rules above, though, apply to
the list as it is now.

Thanks all,
	Warren

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From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca  Wed Jan 27 13:28:33 1999
From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:28:33 -0500
Subject: the contents of this mailing list
Message-ID: <199901270330.OAA20297@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

My two cents' worth on the latest fuss:

It seems premature to discuss splitting the list unless there is a concrete
proposal for how to split it, but I cannot think of a split that would solve
the present problem.  The real trouble right now is one or two people who
cannot resist waving their antlers around in public.  We could eliminate
them by declaring UNIX on anything but the PDP11 (and perhaps the PDP-7)
to be out of bounds, but unless we also refuse to talk about anything post-V7,
that is an artificial cutoff; there's a fair bit of shared code between
2.11BSD and 4BSD (wasn't that the point of 2.11 et al?).  There's also a
genuine link between PDP11 and VAX hardware (nearly all the pre-VAXBI
peripheral devices for a start).

More important than any of the above, I'd like to ask everyone to try to
keep their remarks civil and reasonably to-the-point (difficult though both
of those often are in e-mail), and to take conversations that are marginal
to the main purpose of the list to direct e-mail rather than broadcasting
everything to everyone no matter how peripheral.  (Which is not to say that
discussion of peripherals aren't relevant.)  For example, I had a handful
of comments both philosophical and technical on Michael Sokolov's recent
postings; they didn't strike me as of general interest, so I mailed them
directly to him.

To close with a reference nearer to ancient UNIX, I think it was Dennis who
once suggested that netnews would have had a much higher signal-to-noise ratio
if there had been no `followup' command, so it was easier to send e-mail
directly to the original poster than to make a fool of one's self in public.

Norman Wilson

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 13:38:45 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:38:45 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Split of PUPS mail list??
In-Reply-To: <19990127035054.L496@krdl.org.sg> from "Joerg B. Micheel" at "Jan 27, 1999  3:50:54 am"
Message-ID: <199901270338.OAA01601@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Joerg B. Micheel:
> > Please email me your suggestions, desires etc w.r.t this issue. I will
> > post a summary sometime next week, and we can then decide what to do.
> 
> You don't mention a specific scheme to do the split.

No. I'll take suggestions, then summarise the suggestions and post them
next week.

	Warren

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Jan 27 13:42:44 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:42:44 -0500
Subject: KA650-B V1.2 CPU EPROM image
Message-ID: <199901270342.AA19227@world.std.com>


<Let's look at things from the practical viewpoint, OK? One of my goals is t
<establish a repository containing the latest available microcode revision f

That is not the problem.  You are putting up the ROM contents off the cpu 
card and that is unreleased copyrighted code.

<Come on, removing the KA650 from the list of CPUs for which I make microcod
<updates available won't change anything. I will still have to carry a ragba
<DEC-copyrighted bits and pieces in order to make my OS project successful. 

Then I expect you will get propper permissions or paperwork showing that 
they were grandfatherd.  In either case by not doing that your potentially 
liable( and involing others) in a copyright infingment suit.  Copyright is 
a legal issue.

<UNIX will require a copy of VMB.EXE in order to boot from MSCP disks and TM

Not an issue and that is not the rom image.

<The thing of it is, all this hardware is orphaned. If you have a DEBNA and 
<to upgrade it to DEBNI to run UNIX, or if you have KA650 V1.1 and want to
<upgrade it to V1.2 to run UNIX, if you call COMPAQ and ask them for a firmw
<upgrade they'll laugh at you. If DEC still existed and supported this stuff
<would be a different story, but with all this hardware orphaned, the poor V
<UNIX users have no one to turn to for microcode upgrades and troubleshootin
<support except the VAX UNIX maintainer, i.e., me.

Not true.  While Compaq/DEC may or may not supply products it is still 
their ownership.  Further I'd bet that through field service spares parts 
are still quite available.

Allison




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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Jan 27 13:43:07 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:43:07 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901270343.AA19561@world.std.com>


<What I was saying that if someone, no matter who, tries to use the governme
<oppression mechanism (formally known as intellectual property law) to obstr

The rom code for the KA650 is not public domain nor was it ever relased 
with public domain trimmings to anyone.  Calling it opression or anything 
else is a transparent attempt to evade the law.

<supposed to cooperate, not fight. Using legal quirks to obstruct the work o
<non-profit software developer for ideological reasons would probably be
<universally agreed to be unethical.

When applied to "freely copyable code" no problem.  Copyrighted firmware 
is not that.

Allison


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Jan 27 13:43:14 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:43:14 -0500
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <199901270343.AA19655@world.std.com>


<Eventually I will support almost every VAX ever made, just like Ultrix. The
<is no reason why it can't be done. If Ultrix, a close 4.3BSD derivative, co
<do this, so can 4.3BSD-* itself.

Then it might almst be as common as VMS... not likely.  Ultrix never drive 
every VAX nor was it as robust as VMS.  It will still not be a 24x7x365 OS 
of any standing until proven so by use, not assertion.

Allison




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From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca  Wed Jan 27 14:32:49 1999
From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 23:32:49 -0500
Subject: UNIX robustness
Message-ID: <199901270434.PAA00279@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Allison Parent is probably correct that Ultrix doesn't have as impressive
a record of robustness as VMS, but there are certainly application-specific
cases where the system did pretty well.  The collection of MicroVAX II parts
I have at home mostly used to be the University of Toronto's backbone IP
routers, which ran an early Ultrix (I forget if it was 2.0 or 3.0).
Evidently most of these systems just ran and ran and ran, stopping only
for hardware failures.  (Probably mostly broken RD53 disks--most of the
disks that came in the parts collection were broken in one way or another.)
Although I am not a first-hand witness, the claim is that some of these
systems had uptimes as long as five years when they were finally decommissioned
in 1990 or 1991.

Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?

Norman Wilson

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jan 27 14:38:23 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:38:23 +1100 (EST)
Subject: UNIX robustness
In-Reply-To: <199901270434.PAA00279@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at "Jan 26, 1999 11:32:49 pm"
Message-ID: <199901270438.PAA01836@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca:
> Anyone else got any my-UNIX-ran-longer-than-yours stories?
> Norman Wilson

Only <200 days here for a PC-based system, usually brought down by
power failure.
	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jan 27 15:12:57 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:12:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: UNIX robustness
Message-ID: <199901270512.VAA15671@moe.2bsd.com>

	At least it's a different thread... ;-)

	I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
	the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
	and a beefier replacement system installed.  The original system
	was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
	never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years.  As time went on the 
	load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and 
	paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed.  A
	couple months after that the disk died ;-)

	Steven

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jan 27 15:15:08 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:15:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Addendum to Unix robustness
Message-ID: <199901270515.VAA15701@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

	I've personally seen/run a PDP-11/44 under 2.11BSD for 1 year without 
	reboooting.  Then the power went out and spoiled the streak.  Started
	over and was a couple months into the new uptime and the RA81 died.
	Sigh.

	Steven

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From djenner at halcyon.com  Wed Jan 27 23:23:58 1999
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:23:58 -0800
Subject: UNIX robustness
References: <199901270512.VAA15671@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <36AF136E.8FB4C233@halcyon.com>

I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
net from 1989-1993.  At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
power failure finally got it.

It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software.  The
system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots. 

Dave

"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
> 
>         At least it's a different thread... ;-)
> 
>         I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
>         the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
>         and a beefier replacement system installed.  The original system
>         was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
>         never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years.  As time went on the
>         load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
>         paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed.  A
>         couple months after that the disk died ;-)
> 
>         Steven

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From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca  Thu Jan 28 01:14:30 1999
From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: UNIX V6 Enhancements/Games
In-Reply-To: <199901262238.JAA05749@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Jan 27, 99 09:38:32 am
Message-ID: <199901271514.KAA30920@math.uwaterloo.ca>

Alas I don't know the precise details, but I do remember that the
University of Waterloo had an explicit license (seperate from the UNIX
one) just for the *real* troff code.  When I say "real" I mean the code
that drove a real typesetting device etc. (in PDP-11 assembler I think). 
We had a highly modified copy in use for more than a decade I think,
driving successive generations of new typeset quality engines. I can
check with the fellow that really knows all this history and details
if someone is interested.  -- Ken

| In article by alejandro gonzalez:
| > 
| > Reading the Unix Summary, I have noticed that some packages are
| > distributed as Enhancements: Like TROFF, or some of the Games, and not in
| > the orginial distribution
| > 
| > The Unix System the comes with the tapes does not come with Man, Troff,
| > etc.. Is any of this extra stuff in the Pups Archive? If so, Where?
| > 
| > Alex
| 
| All we have are the tapes as donated to us by Dennis Ritchie and Ken
| Wellsch. I don't know if a copy of the enhancements still exist. However,
| they may have been part of PWB UNIX, which was around at the same time as
| Research UNIX. Have a look in the Distributions/usdl section for PWB UNIX.
| 
| 	Warren

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From jp at spektr.eu.org  Thu Jan 28 03:21:11 1999
From: jp at spektr.eu.org (Jorgen Pehrson)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:21:11 +0100 (CET)
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.05.9901271816460.25417-100000@spektr.eu.org>

Thor Lancelot Simon < tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
>...or vi versus Emacs.

What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)

-- 
Jorgen Pehrson     (HP 9000/380, VAX2000, DECstation 5000/200 (NetBSD 1.3))
jp at spektr.eu.org   (PDP11/73, PDP11/83, PDP11/83 (2.11BSD)), Intergraph 200
spektr.eu.org/~jp/ MicroVAX 3100 (NetBSD 1.3), VAXstation 4000/90 (VAX/VMS)


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From emu at ecubics.com  Thu Jan 28 03:41:15 1999
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:41:15 -0700
Subject: 4.4BSD
Message-ID: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350>

Hi Jorgen,

----------
> From: Jorgen Pehrson <jp at spektr.eu.org>
> To: PDP11 UNIX Preservation Society <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au>
> Subject: Re: 4.4BSD
> Date: Wednesday, January 27, 1999 10:21 AM

> What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)

SURE !!!
I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
line printer console  ;-))

cheers,
emanuel


From mjenkins at carp.gbr.epa.gov  Thu Jan 28 08:08:49 1999
From: mjenkins at carp.gbr.epa.gov (Mike Jenkins)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:08:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Snake Oil (was Re: 4.4BSD)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990127010122.29540B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <199901272208.QAA21721@carp.gbr.epa.gov>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999 "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com> wrote:

> 	I maintain the opposite.  VMS _was_ (past tense) the driver of
> 	VAXEN but that was due to Ken "UNIX is Snake Oil" Olsen.  Since DEC

I got a whole different perspective on that Snake Oil thing after reading
"A Quarter Century of UNIX" by Peter Salus.  According to Armando Stettner
(DEC Ultrix Architect) Ken Olsen meant, "Much the way people were peddling
snake oil a century ago, now every vendor is hyping Unix as a cure for
everything".  He was only making a analogy but the statement was "taken
out of context".  Anyway, the book has been enjoyable.

Mike
P.S. Where is Armando now?  Is he still doing Unix stuff?

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Jan 28 09:10:55 1999
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:40:55 +1030
Subject: UNIX robustness
In-Reply-To: <36AF136E.8FB4C233@halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 05:23:58AM -0800
References: <199901270512.VAA15671@moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <19990128094055.E66239@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 27 January 1999 at  5:23:58 -0800, David C. Jenner wrote:
> "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>>
>>         At least it's a different thread... ;-)
>>
>>         I had a UNIX system in my house that ran (and was working hard
>>         the whole time) for over 2 years before pity was taken on it
>>         and a beefier replacement system installed.  The original system
>>         was a 386/33 serving as a rather busy secondary nameserver and was
>>         never touched/rebooted/powercycled for 2+ years.  As time went on the
>>         load increased and it became apparent the system was overloaded (and
>>         paging excessively) so a P5/90 with more memory was installed.  A
>>         couple months after that the disk died ;-)
>
> I had (still have) a PDP-11/23+ that ran (still runs) 2.9BSD (with an
> honest-to-goodness AT&T binary license) that was my UUCP link to the
> net from 1989-1993.  At one stretch, it ran almost two years before a
> power failure finally got it.
>
> It was unusual to go that long without a power failure, so the limiting
> factor was clearly the power and not the hardware or software.  The
> system has a watchdog timer, so when there was a problem the system would
> usually automatically reboot, unless there was a serious hardware problem.
> Reboots were fairly rare and usually a power problem, so it would be hard
> for me to pinpoint the cause of non-power-instigated reboots.

I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure.  Steveen
could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
died.  2.11BSD certainly does.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Jan 28 10:07:22 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: UNIX robustness
Message-ID: <199901280007.QAA27431@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> 
> I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure.  Steveen
> could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
> died.  2.11BSD certainly does.

	Well, it tries its darndest to do so.  If the system gets its
	knickers sufficiently twisted I've seen it hang part way thru
	printing the panic message.  'course then there are the self
	inflicted crashes where an errant driver scribbles all over memory,
	in which case you may not get a meaningful indication of what
	went wrong ;)

	Steven

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Thu Jan 28 10:11:56 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:11:56 +0100 (MET)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <19990127174150.AAA5105@p2350>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.990128011036.2335D-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

> > What's that? When I want to edit text I want an editor, not an vi-itor
> > or an emacsitor, those aren't even words! ED is the standard editor. :)
> 
> SURE !!!
> I think most people simply forget, that emacs doesn't work so well on a
> line printer console  ;-))

I have only one things to say to you guys; TECO.
(And besides, EMACS is just a bunch of macros for TECO, GNU-EMACS don't
even count... ;-)

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From djenner at halcyon.com  Thu Jan 28 13:24:31 1999
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:24:31 -0800
Subject: UNIX robustness
References: <199901270512.VAA15671@moe.2bsd.com> <36AF136E.8FB4C233@halcyon.com> <19990128094055.E66239@freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <36AFD86F.A25AFE2A@halcyon.com>

Yes, and it was almost 2 years between reboots.  Otherwise, they were
rather rare, and I can't remember why.  I have all the console logs
around somewhere under a pile, and if/when I uncover them, I'll look
through them to see what happened.  Maybe I'll suddenly report it here
in 6 months--after my next reboot, err, cleanup.

Dave

Greg Lehey wrote:
> 

> 
> I think you'd have to consider a reboot to be a failure.  Steveen
> could say better than I, but I'd expect 2.9BSD to have told you why it
> died.  2.11BSD certainly does.
> 
> Greg
> --
> See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers
> finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From bdc at world.std.com  Thu Jan 28 18:05:26 1999
From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:05:26 -0800 (PDT)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <199901260840.DAA03265@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990127235939.2520C-100000@world.std.com>

On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> > I frankly consider this to be silly, somewhat presumptious, and, for myself,
> > at least, a waste of time.  But if it's something _you_ want to do, I
> > encourage you to do it, I suppose.
> 
> You may believe whatever you want, but I will only remark that several very
> prominent VAX hardware gurus (some of them on this list) support my work very
> eagerly. Whatever you or the NetBSD gang may believe,

"Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've
 commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic

-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!


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From erin at coffee.corliss.net  Fri Jan 29 03:54:42 1999
From: erin at coffee.corliss.net (Erin W. Corliss)
Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:54:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 4.4BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990127235939.2520C-100000@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990128095053.21935A-100000@coffee.corliss.net>



On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Brian D Chase wrote:

> "Death to the murderous NetBSD grandparents and the atrocities they've
>  commited against the true Unix." -- Bee S. D'argic

Yeah, what kind of sadistic, malicious bastards would create a *free*
version of unix, then port it to nearly every platform imaginable!!?!?
What could have been going through their twisted minds?

----------------------------------------------------------
"...and an eternity, my friend, is a long f*cking time..."





From mirian at xensei.com  Sat Jan 30 04:04:20 1999
From: mirian at xensei.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox)
Date: 29 Jan 1999 13:04:20 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:07:22 -0800 (PST)"
References: <199901280007.QAA27431@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <m3g18u2bx7.fsf@mysticmayhem.com>

How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD?  I'm thinking
about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc.  I'd like to set up a
system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
show up in places like eBay.  Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?

--Mirian

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Sat Jan 30 04:45:43 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 13:45:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <m3g18u2bx7.fsf@mysticmayhem.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000@world.std.com>



On 29 Jan 1999, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:

> How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD?  I'm thinking
> about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc.  I'd like to set up a
> system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
> Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
> show up in places like eBay.  Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
> use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?

These are of the same or similar performance level as MicrovaxIIs and do
run Ultrix(DEC version of BSD) fairly well.  The problems you will have
is that the largest internal disk is a RD54 (159mb) and hard to find.  You
can also add an external RD54 if you can find the box and cables for it.
Performance as a single user system is acceptable.  Note that
VAXstation3100, Microvax3100 system are also of the same class but off
3-10+ times the performance in a 4x18x16 inch case and they have SCSI
interface to disks allowing for much more common and larger disks.

I can't speak for anything else.  I generally run VMS on vaxen.

Allison


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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 30 05:22:49 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 14:22:49 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <199901291922.OAA04691@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Mirian Crzig Lennox <mirian at xensei.com> wrote:

> How well can the so-called "desktop vaxen" run 4.3 BSD?  I'm thinking
> about systems like the MicroVAX 2000, etc.  I'd like to set up a
> system to run some sort of 4.3 system (maybe Michael Sokolov's
> Quasijarus distribution) and I've noticed the occasional desktop vax
> show up in places like eBay.  Is it possible to avoid the hernia and
> use one of these "2nd floor apartment-friendly" computers?

Subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list using standard Majordomo commands and
post your question there. I'll answer it.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/


From pat at transarc.com  Sat Jan 30 06:28:52 1999
From: pat at transarc.com (Pat Barron)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:28:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000@smithfield.transarc.com>

As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it.  The
Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
though....).

4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.

--Pat.



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From allisonp at world.std.com  Sat Jan 30 07:06:28 1999
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:06:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000@smithfield.transarc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129160049.19225A-100000@world.std.com>



On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Pat Barron wrote:

> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it.  The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).

The centronics is electrically scsi and uses the NCR scsi chip (5380) but
there is nothing in the boot-diagnostic rom that supports it save for the
TK50FA version that has an oddball device protocal.  If you boot from
floppy or RDxx disk and have a driver that supports VS200 scsi properly it
can be used for expansion.  There are however issues in that the hard disk
interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause
some performance degrdation.

The port however is not for centronis printer as dec used serial
interfaced printers.

 > 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.
> 
> --Pat.

Tha is what the socalled qasijarius project is supposed to fix.

Allison



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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 30 07:26:58 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:26:58 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <199901292126.QAA04748@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Pat Barron <pat at transarc.com> wrote:

> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it.  The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).

Correct, except that since Ultrix is binary-only chainware, you would have to
disassemble and patch some of its kernel .o files in order to force is to
recognize SCSI disks. It uses the CPU code (a byte-sized number constructed
from the SID and SID extension longwords) to index into a table of pointers to
routines for different CPUs, and the routines that get called when the CPU is
KA410 (VS/MV 2000) don't bother to probe for SCSI disks. This means that any
SCSI disks you may have attached will be silently ignored, even though the
drivers are present and they would work if they weren't artificially blocked.

> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.

Adding BabyVAX support (with MFM, SCSI, LANCE, and everything) to
4.3BSD-Quasijarus is in my plans. For more information, subscribe to the
Quasijarus mailing list.

If you want to have something running now, you can either run Ultrix and learn
to live in binary-only chains, or you can construct a system consisting of the
Ultrix kernel and the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland. There is enough syscall
compatibility between 4.3BSD and Ultrix to make this possible.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Sat Jan 30 07:41:53 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:41:53 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000@smithfield.transarc.com>; from Pat Barron on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500
References: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129133718.11015C-100000@world.std.com> <Pine.GSO.3.96.990129150954.25336E-100000@smithfield.transarc.com>
Message-ID: <19990129164152.A3563@rek.tjls.com>

On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 03:28:52PM -0500, Pat Barron wrote:
> As I recall, you can attach an external SCSI hard disk to a MicroVAX 2000,
> and Ultrix will be able to use it, but you can't boot from it.  The
> Centronics expansion port really is a SCSI port, even though it was never
> billed as such (and the TZK50 tape drive really is a SCSI drive, and you
> can use it on other systems that have SCSI - not sure why you'd want to,
> though....).
> 
> 4.3BSD (and its variants) for the VAX has no SCSI support at all, so
> you're out of luck if you want to use SCSI disks on a MicroVAX under 4.3.

As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.  The
people who made it do so used the relevant source bits from Ultrix, I
think, so even with a 32V source license you're out of luck.

There is a reasonable alternative.  NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.  It will also run 4.3BSD
binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will.  I
ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
branched from 4.2, not 4.3.

SCSI on the 2000 is supposed to work pretty well, SCSI on some 3100 models
less so; the LANCE ethernet on the older boxes and the SGEC on the 4000/60
work; a few models support graphical console on a QDSS or equivalent.  For
the boxes where you're stuck with small RD series disks, shared libraries
may help a bit.

Hope this helps.

THor

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From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca  Sat Jan 30 08:07:36 1999
From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:07:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990129160049.19225A-100000@world.std.com> from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Jan 29, 99 04:06:28 pm
Message-ID: <199901292207.RAA18899@math.uwaterloo.ca>

On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer.  You then have to
pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory.  I believe the Lance
chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.

-- Ken

> [...]  There are however issues in that the hard disk
> interface and the SCSI chip use the same DMA channel and it would cause
> some performance degrdation. [...]
> 
> Allison

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 30 08:49:42 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <199901292249.RAA04815@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:

> As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.

4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
beautifully.

> There is a reasonable alternative.  NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.

A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
diskless peering-at toy.

4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
our team.

> It will also run 4.3BSD
> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will.  I
> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.

The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland
will run perfectly atop of an Ultrix kernel.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 30 08:52:00 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:52:00 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <199901292252.RAA04823@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Ken Wellsch <kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:

> On a KA410 (VAXstation 2000 etc.) the MFM controller and the NCR 5380
> both do DMA to a shared 16Kb private memory buffer.  You then have to
> pull your data out into the regular VAXen memory.  I believe the Lance
> chip (ethernet) is the only DMA to main memory capable device.

Correct.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From A.F.R.Bain at dpmms.cam.ac.uk  Sat Jan 30 08:54:33 1999
From: A.F.R.Bain at dpmms.cam.ac.uk (Alan F R Bain)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:54:33 +0000
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:49:42 EST."
             <199901292249.RAA04815@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> 
Message-ID: <E106Mo6-0001es-00@moose.dpmms.cam.ac.uk>

Michael Sokolov wrote:
>A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
>diskless peering-at toy.

I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that 
unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model.  I don't think PUPS
is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.

>4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually run on nearly every VAX ever made? When will
>this happen? To speed it up, subscribe to the Quasijarus mailing list and join
>our team.
>
>> It will also run 4.3BSD
>> binaries -- in fact, in my experience, more of them than Ultrix will.  I
>> ran Ultrix on a 3100 on my desk when I worked at DEC, and it was even odds
>> whether binaries I'd built on 4.3 would work correctly -- remember, Ultrix
>> branched from 4.2, not 4.3.
>
>The fact that Ultrix originally started from 4.2 is absolutely irrelevant,
>since when 4.3BSD came out, Ultrix fully caught up with it. As the principal
>maintainer and software architect of 4.3BSD-*, I know this better than anyone
>else, and I state authoritatively that the complete 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland

I don't feel that there is any need to be silly and pretentious
here; techinical arguments may be of interest, but `I'm right and
I know I am' arguments are just childish.

To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX;  Warren's
graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
(especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
etc.).  I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
in some of the details.


Alan Bain


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From mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu  Sat Jan 30 10:10:23 1999
From: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:10:23 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
Message-ID: <199901300010.TAA04883@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>

Alan F R Bain <A.F.R.Bain at dpmms.cam.ac.uk> wrote:

> I think this is being grossly unfair and irrelevant; the information
> provided was that NetBSD was a viable alternative which is correct.
> All my modern machines run NetBSD and the only non supported hardware
> is a 9 track magtape drive on a sun -- I don't consider that 
> unreasonable as it's rather an unusal model.

How is this relevant to NetBSD/vax? Remember, architectures other than VAX do
not exist as far as I am concerned, so when I say "NetBSD", I always always
always mean NetBSD/vax.

> I don't think PUPS
> is the place for OS favouritism arguments, so please desist.

It is necessary, however, to protect the innocent novice users from falling
into the claws of that predator.

> To add a constructive comment, there's been a lot written about the
> history and tree of development of early unix up to the SYSV
> and BSD split occured, but I'm pretty unsure about the rest.
> It seems that BSD2 and BSD4 developed pretty much in parallel,
> the former targetting the PDP and the latter the VAX;  Warren's
> graphing data provide an interesting view of what happened,
> but I'm unsure how closely related the two developments were
> (especially in time of releases, introduction of new features
> etc.).  I'd be grateful if someone more knowledgable could fill
> in some of the details.

First of all, this is absolutely irrelevant to the question of binary
compatibility between 4.2BSD, 4.3BSD, and Ultrix.

Second, the development didn't "split" into PDP-11 and VAX. Instead, the
MAINSTREAM UNIX system _CONVERTED_ from PDP-11 to VAX, and did so at AT&T,
before the torch was turned over to UC Berkeley. 2BSD was not mainstream UNIX.
In fact, it was not UNIX at all, since it didn't contain a kernel, only a
patchkit of userland enhancements. Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.

Michael Sokolov
TUHS 4BSD Coordinator
4.3BSD-* Maintainer
Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer
Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46 at k2.scl.cwru.edu
TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/
Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/

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From tls at rek.tjls.com  Sat Jan 30 10:50:36 1999
From: tls at rek.tjls.com (Thor Lancelot Simon)
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:50:36 -0500
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <199901292249.RAA04815@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500
References: <199901292249.RAA04815@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu>
Message-ID: <19990129195036.A7942@rek.tjls.com>

On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Thor Lancelot Simon <tls at rek.tjls.com> wrote:
> 
> > As far as I recall, stock 4.3 won't run on the MV2000, 3100, etc.
> 
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus will eventually. For now if you want to run the
> 4.3BSD-Quasijarus userland, run it atop of an Ultrix kernel. Will work
> beautifully.
> 
> > There is a reasonable alternative.  NetBSD runs on the 2000, many 3100 models,
> > and even the 4000/60, which Ultrix never ran on.
> 
> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
> you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> diskless peering-at toy.

That's nonsense.  As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
in question.  It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.

Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
happen to disagree?

Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?

Thor

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jan 30 11:09:36 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:09:36 +1100 (EST)
Subject: low-end vaxen and unix
In-Reply-To: <19990129195036.A7942@rek.tjls.com> from Thor Lancelot Simon at "Jan 29, 1999  7:50:36 pm"
Message-ID: <199901300109.MAA09808@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Thor Lancelot Simon:
> On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 05:49:42PM -0500, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>> A warning for naive list readers. NetBSD's definition of "runs on" means that
>>you have to part with all of your mass storage devices and use the bare CPU as
> > diskless peering-at toy.
> 
> That's nonsense.  As I stated in the message to which you were purportedly
> responding, NetBSD supports both SCSI and MFM (RD-series) disks on the machines
> in question.  It also supports MSCP disks on most systems to which they
> can be attached, and TMSCP tapes; and, for the truly masochistic, last
> time I tried the RL02 on my '750 worked, too.
> 
> Let me ask you once again: why do you become so combative when others simply
> express technical opinions (or, in this case, state facts) with which you
> happen to disagree?
> 
> Are you actively _trying_ to disrupt this list just so that nobody can
> mention the word "NetBSD" on it for fear of being flamed?
> Thor

Ok, this is a warning to anybody who posts a reply to the thread above
in the mailing list. If you say something which is religious, zealous
or inflammatory, then I will issue a warning to you in the list. 2nd
time I issue a warning, I will start to moderate your postings.

This whole issue is like Linux vs. FreeBSD. The BEST answer to the
question: which is the best? is to get the user to try both out, and
they can make their own choice. As several people have explained, the
choice is a combination of technical issues AND aesthetics. And we all
have different tastes.

So respect each others tastes, and don't hassle them.

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jan 30 11:21:28 1999
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:21:28 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Is 2.xBSD `approved'?
In-Reply-To: <199901300010.TAA04883@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jan 29, 1999  7:10:23 pm"
Message-ID: <199901300121.MAA09827@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Michael Sokolov:
> Now if you are talking about 2.xBSD, as
> opposed to the real 2BSD, it is a different story altogether, and it isn't
> really Berkeley Software DIstribution, since it wasn't developed at Berkeley.
>2.xBSD is an unauthorized, unapproved, and unblessed side branch, and as far as
> I'm concerned, it doesn't exist.

I hate to say this, but 2.xBSD, where x was 8, 9 and 10, was developed with
the involvement of several people at the CSRG, e.g Keith Bostic, Mike Karels,
Kirk McKusick. I'm sure Steven Schultz could give me some more names.

Although 2.xBSD is definitely not the branch which got the most attention,
I wouldn't say it was unauthorised, unapproved nor unblessed.

Actually, given that the CSRG is now disbanded, it is fair to say that
both 2.11BSD and 4.3-Quasijarus are in exactly the same boat: side branches
of the main BSD development, maintained by individuals who were not members
of the original CSRG.

Now, let us return to the more important issue of helping each other out,
rather than getting at each other. All UNIXes are worthy topics, and do
not deserve ridicule.

	Warren

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From norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca  Sun Jan 31 01:38:44 1999
From: norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca (norman at nose.cita.utoronto.ca)
Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:38:44 -0500
Subject: Old UNIX file system formats
Message-ID: <199901301539.CAA20265@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

I've assembled some notes from old manuals and other sources
on the formats used for on-disk file systems through the
Seventh Edition:

http://www.cita.utoronto.ca/~norman/old-unix/old-fs.html

Additional notes, comments on style, and whatnot are welcome.
(It may be sensible to send anything in the last two categories
directly to me, rather than to the whole list.)


From kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca  Fri Jan  1 10:20:11 1999
From: kcwellsc at math.uwaterloo.ca (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 19:20:11 +73900 (EST)
Subject: Old UNIX file system formats
In-Reply-To: <199901301539.CAA20265@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from "norman@nose.cita.utoronto.ca" at Jan 30, 99 10:38:44 am
Message-ID: <199902010020.TAA29097@math.uwaterloo.ca>

I didn't see mention of the flag "HUGE" WRT the V6 file format.
Now I may be being mislead from my memory of Venix 1.x which is
a derivative of V6 (while Venix 2.x is SysIII I think).  If the
HUGE bit is set in the i-node, then and only then is the 8th
index pointer treated as the indirection variety.  Thus 8 block
or less files I think are directly indexed.  -- Ken

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