From j.r.engdahl at adelphia.net  Wed Apr  2 13:58:31 2003
From: j.r.engdahl at adelphia.net (Jonathan Engdahl)
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 2003 22:58:31 -0500
Subject: [pups] booting RT11 from alternate controller
Message-ID: <005901c2f8cc$202c0d90$0f00a8c0@arctura>

I have a PDP-11/53 with a SCSI controller at 172150, and an RQDX3 at 172144.
There are a couple SCSI drives on the primary controller, and an RX50 on the
RQDX3. Everything seems to work OK, and I can read the floppies, except I
cannot boot RT11 from a floppy. From the 11/53 boot ROM you can say

B/A DU0

It will then ask for the address of the alternate controller. It reads from
the floppy, then it reads from both hard drives, then hangs.

What I hunch is happening is that the boot ROM reads the RT11 boot sector
from the floppy, but then the boot sector tries to continue booting from the
hard drives, which isn't going to work, because they are 2.11BSD formatted.

The objective is to have some non-RQDX3 hard drive controller as the
primary, and a secondary RQDX3 for the floppy, and to be able to boot UNIX
from the hard drive, and RT11 from the floopy. Any ideas on how to
accomplish this?

--
Jonathan Engdahl
http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl

"The things which are seen are temporary,
 but the things which are not seen are eternal."  II Cor. 4:18



From j.r.engdahl at adelphia.net  Wed Apr  2 23:14:00 2003
From: j.r.engdahl at adelphia.net (Jonathan Engdahl)
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 08:14:00 -0500
Subject: [pups] booting RT11 from alternate controller
References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409DBF6@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
Message-ID: <008201c2f919$ba045560$0f00a8c0@arctura>

I'll have to try this with the RQDX3 as primary and the SCSI as secondary.
Maybe BSD is smart enough to do it right. In any case, I have the source for
the BSD boot code, and I can fix it. It will be a pain, though, having to
type the alternate address every time I boot BSD. I'd probably have to
restructure /dev and /etc/fstab also, and who knows what else. Maybe it
would be easier to change the jumpers if I needed to run RT11. I don't use
RT11 that much, but I'd like to have it available.

--
Jonathan Engdahl
http://users.safeaccess.com/engdahl

"The things which are seen are temporary,
 but the things which are not seen are eternal."  II Cor. 4:18


----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl>
To: "Jonathan Engdahl" <j.r.engdahl at adelphia.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2003 5:58 AM
Subject: RE: [pups] booting RT11 from alternate controller


Jonathan,

> I have a PDP-11/53 with a SCSI controller at 172150, and an
> RQDX3 at 172144.
This works for the ROM, but most PDP-11 operating systems will
refuse to boot from anything but the "default" controller of
any kind, meaning, an MSCP controller it will only accept at
172150.  The OS itself can deal with them, but not so for the
boot-level code that loads them.

I have tried similar setups with an 11/83 using an ESDI disk
controller at MSCP #0 (doing KDA50 emu), and an RQDX3 at
MSCP #1 (just for the floppies, indeed) and that didnt work
either, with RT11, MicroRSX and Ultrix.

--f



From robin.birch at royalmail.com  Fri Apr  4 21:11:50 2003
From: robin.birch at royalmail.com (robin.birch at royalmail.com)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:11:50 +0000
Subject: [pups] VAX support
Message-ID: <00256CFE.003D9BB4.00@postoffice.co.uk>


Hi All,
I know that this isn't pdp related but the people are here who know :-).  Is there
an available unix that supports lance and dssi on a VAX 3400 and/or is there anyone
working on this.

Regards

Robin

This  email  and  any  attachments  are confidential and intended for the addressee
only.   If  you are not the named recipient, you must not use, disclose, reproduce,
copy  or  distribute the contents of this communication.  If you have received this
in error, please contact the sender and then delete this email from your system.




From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Apr  5 21:15:51 2003
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 13:15:51 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [pups] VAX support
In-Reply-To: <00256CFE.003D9BB4.00@postoffice.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0304051315030.23566-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 4 Apr 2003 robin.birch at royalmail.com wrote:

> Hi All,
> I know that this isn't pdp related but the people are here who know :-).
> Is there an available unix that supports lance and dssi on a VAX 3400
> and/or is there anyone working on this.

DSSI is definitely Ultrix only.
NetBSD/vax supports the rest.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca  Wed Apr 16 13:30:10 2003
From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 23:30:10 -0400
Subject: [pups] ISO9660 filesystem on 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <20030415233010.A5833@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>

  Has anyone tried to do such a thing?  Would anybody care?

-- 
David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual


From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Wed Apr 16 14:10:52 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 00:10:52 -0400
Subject: [pups] ISO9660 filesystem on 2.11BSD
In-Reply-To: <20030415233010.A5833@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <000d01c303ce$335d3a80$0bc5580c@who5>

Hello again from Gregg C Levine
I might. Especially since the current population of OSes that we run,
support it, and the old fellow does not. You might notice the presence
of a SYSV module for reading media from that time period. 
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: pups-admin at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:pups-admin at minnie.tuhs.org]
On
> Behalf Of David Evans
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 11:30 PM
> To: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: [pups] ISO9660 filesystem on 2.11BSD
> 
>   Has anyone tried to do such a thing?  Would anybody care?
> 
> --
> David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)
dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie
http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
> University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the
composer
> Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland
TR-707 Manual
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups




From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Apr 30 07:54:01 2003
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:54:01 +0200
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble
Message-ID: <20030429215401.GO1368@oblina>

Hi.

I am preparing my PDP-11/73 for my exhibition at the VCFe. I wane get
the DHV11 (M3104) and a four port DLV11J colne to work. At the moment I
get upon boot:

autoconfig: warning: more than three handlers for device cn on line 38.
dhv ? csr 160440 vector 310 didn't interrupt.
ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
ra 1 csr 160334 vector 764 vectorset attached
rx ? csr 177170 vector 264 skipped:  No CSR.
tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached
ts 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
cn 1 csr 176540 vector 344 no address found for kl/dl-11

Extract from /etc/dtab:
# grep '^[a-zA-Z]' /etc/dtab
dhv     ? 160440 310    5       dhvrint dhvxint # dhv terminal mux
ra      ? 172150 154    5       raintr          # uda50, rqdx1/2/3
ra      ? 160334 764    5       raintr          # uda50, rqdx1/2/3
rx      ? 177170 264    5       rxintr          # rx01/02
tms     ? 174500 260    5       tmsintr         # tmscp driver
ts      ? 172520 224    5       tsintr          # ts11 driver
cn      1 176540 344    5       cnrint  cnxint
cn      2 176550 354    5       cnrint  cnxint
cn      3 176560 364    5       cnrint  cnxint

What is wrong with the "cn" devices? 

I checked the CSRs of the DHV11 and the DLV11J cards with the "show
qbus" command on a MicroVAX 4000-200 to be sure that the CSRs are where
I am expecting them:
>>>sh q
Scan of Qbus I/O Space
-20000120 (760440) = 009D DHQ11/DHV11/CXA16/CXB16/CXY08
-20000122 (760442) = F081
-20000124 (760444) = 0000
-20000126 (760446) = 0000
-20000128 (760450) = 0000
-2000012A (760452) = 0000
-2000012C (760454) = 0000
-2000012E (760456) = 0000
-20001940 (774500) = 0000 TQK50/TQK70/TU81E/RV20/KFQSA-TAPE
-20001942 (774502) = 0BC0
-20001D60 (776540) = 0000 DLV11J
-20001D62 (776542) = 0000
-20001D64 (776544) = 0080
-20001D66 (776546) = 0000
-20001D68 (776550) = 0000 DLV11J
-20001D6A (776552) = 0000
-20001D6C (776554) = 0080
-20001D6E (776556) = 0000
-20001D70 (776560) = 0000 DLV11J
-20001D72 (776562) = 0000
-20001D74 (776564) = 0080
-20001D76 (776566) = 0000
-20001F40 (777500) = 0020 IPCR
-20001F70 (777560) = 0000
-20001F72 (777562) = 0000
-20001F74 (777564) = 0080
-20001F76 (777566) = 0000
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/




From sms at 2BSD.COM  Wed Apr 30 08:48:48 2003
From: sms at 2BSD.COM (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:48:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble
Message-ID: <200304292248.h3TMmmc08433@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
> I am preparing my PDP-11/73 for my exhibition at the VCFe. I want to get
> the DHV11 (M3104) and a four port DLV11J clone to work. At the moment I
> get upon boot:
> 
> autoconfig: warning: more than three handlers for device cn on line 38.

	That is not a normal message.  I believe autoconfig is saying that
	is something wrong with line 38 of /etc/dtab 

> dhv ? csr 160440 vector 310 didn't interrupt.
> ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
> ra 1 csr 160334 vector 764 vectorset attached
> rx ? csr 177170 vector 264 skipped:  No CSR.
> tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached
> ts 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
> cn 1 csr 176540 vector 344 no address found for kl/dl-11

> What is wrong with the "cn" devices? 

	Is 'cn 1 ...' line 38 of the /etc/dtab file?

	Did you compile a kernel with NKL set to 5 (1 for the console and
	4 for the DLV11J)?   

	Cheers,
	Steven Schultz


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Apr 30 18:24:22 2003
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:24:22 +0200
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble
In-Reply-To: <200304292248.h3TMmmc08433@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@2BSD.COM on Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 00:48:48 CEST
References: <200304292248.h3TMmmc08433@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20030430102422.D196974@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 2003.04.30 00:48 Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> > cn 1 csr 176540 vector 344 no address found for kl/dl-11
> > What is wrong with the "cn" devices? 
> 	Is 'cn 1 ...' line 38 of the /etc/dtab file?
Yes: 
cn      1 176540 344    5       cnrint  cnxint

> 	Did you compile a kernel with NKL set to 5 (1 for the console
> 	and 4 for the DLV11J)?   
# NKL includes both KL11's and DL11's.
NKL             4               # KL11, DL11
The card has four ports, one of them is the console. (The M8192 CPU card
has no SLU / ROM / ...) 

But I would prefere to get the DHV11 working. It seams that this device
is more suitable for multi user operation. 

BTW: Never play with the SMD cables when the machine is running. Now I
get: 
# fsck
** /dev/ra0a
File System: /

** Last Mounted on /
** Root file system
** Phase 1 - Check Blocks and Sizes
** Phase 2 - Check Pathnames
** Phase 3 - Check Connectivity
** Phase 4 - Check Reference Counts
** Phase 5 - Check Free List
BLK(S) MISSING
SALVAGE? y

** Phase 6 - Salvage Free List
1364 files, 11625 used, 2430 free

***** FILE SYSTEM WAS MODIFIED *****

But on the next reboot I get the same when running fsck. Any hints? 
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/




From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca  Wed Apr 30 23:40:32 2003
From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:40:32 -0400
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD device config trouble
In-Reply-To: <20030430102422.D196974@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>; from jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de on Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 10:24:22AM +0200
References: <200304292248.h3TMmmc08433@moe.2bsd.com> <20030430102422.D196974@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <20030430094032.A7330@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>

On Wed, Apr 30, 2003 at 10:24:22AM +0200, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> On 2003.04.30 00:48 Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> 
> > > cn 1 csr 176540 vector 344 no address found for kl/dl-11
> > > What is wrong with the "cn" devices? 
> > 	Is 'cn 1 ...' line 38 of the /etc/dtab file?
> Yes: 
> cn      1 176540 344    5       cnrint  cnxint
> 
 
  I didn't see my other post go through; have you tried adding some comments
to the end of this line?  Perhaps the autoconfig parser becomes confused
if there aren't any.

> But I would prefere to get the DHV11 working. It seams that this device
> is more suitable for multi user operation. 
> 

  Mine is at least correctly identified by autoconfig, though I've never
attached a terminal to it to see whether the ports actually do anything.
The post that's vanished included my dhv line from /etc/dtab but, except
for the goofy CSR I used for some reason that I cannot now remember, it
looked like yours.

> BTW: Never play with the SMD cables when the machine is running. Now I
> get: 

...

  Is the disk write-inhibited?

-- 
David Evans          (NeXTMail/MIME OK)             dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual


From L.J.Buitinck at let.rug.nl  Thu Apr  3 20:42:41 2003
From: L.J.Buitinck at let.rug.nl (L.J. Buitinck)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 12:42:41 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Franz Lisp platforms
Message-ID: <3E8C2C41.4610.94D49@localhost>

while trying to build Franz Lisp (from 4.3 BSD) on VAX/ULTRIX 4.5,
I noticed its peculiar list of supported platforms:

use: lispconf type
  where type is one of
  vax_4_1 vax_4_1a vax_4_1c vax_4_2 vax_4_3
  vax_eunice_vms
  sun_4_1c sun_unisoft dual_unisoft pixel_unisoft
  sun_4_2beta lisa_unisys3 mc500_2_0

I was especially surprised by "lisa_unisys3".  is that Unisoft SysIII
for the Apple Lisa?!  and does anyone know what
{dual,pixel}_unisoft and mc500_2_0 mean?

--
If I travelled to the end of the rainbow
As Dame Fortune did intend,
Murphy would be there to tell me
The pot's at the other end.

Lars Buitinck


From tfb at tfeb.org  Fri Apr  4 01:41:11 2003
From: tfb at tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 16:41:11 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Franz Lisp platforms
In-Reply-To: <3E8C2C41.4610.94D49@localhost>
References: <3E8C2C41.4610.94D49@localhost>
Message-ID: <16012.22039.99936.787335@tfeb.org>

[I hope I have set my address right on this one, sorry]

* L J Buitinck wrote:

> I was especially surprised by "lisa_unisys3".  is that Unisoft SysIII
> for the Apple Lisa?!  and does anyone know what
> {dual,pixel}_unisoft and mc500_2_0 mean?

You might get a better answer by asking on comp.lang.lisp, but my
guesses are that mc500_2_0 is a Masscomp 500 (?) running RTU 2.0.
Dual seem to have been people who made early 68k boards and machines
and (according to
http://www.clock.org/~fair/computers/dual-systems.html) were Unisoft's
first customer.  Didn't Sun use unisoft as well, before the BSD ports
(so sometime pre SunOS 1 I guess...).

All of these, look like early 68k Unix machines - there must
have been hundreds of kinds of these, I guess.

--tim



From tfb at cley.com  Fri Apr  4 01:39:40 2003
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 16:39:40 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Franz Lisp platforms
In-Reply-To: <3E8C2C41.4610.94D49@localhost>
References: <3E8C2C41.4610.94D49@localhost>
Message-ID: <16012.21948.183397.79264@cley.com>

* L J Buitinck wrote:

> I was especially surprised by "lisa_unisys3".  is that Unisoft SysIII
> for the Apple Lisa?!  and does anyone know what
> {dual,pixel}_unisoft and mc500_2_0 mean?

You might get a better answer by asking on comp.lang.lisp, but my
guesses are that mc500_2_0 is a Masscomp 500 (?) running RTU 2.0.
Dual seem to have been people who made early 68k boards and machines
and (according to
http://www.clock.org/~fair/computers/dual-systems.html) were Unisoft's
first customer.  Didn't Sun use unisoft as well, before the BSD ports
(so sometime pre SunOS 1 I guess...).

All of these, look like early 68k Unix machines - there must
have been hundreds of kinds of these, I guess.

--tim



From wkt at minnie.tuhs.org  Fri Apr 11 23:53:50 2003
From: wkt at minnie.tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 23:53:50 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Did SunOS 3 have mmap(2)?
Message-ID: <20030411135350.GB54648@minnie.tuhs.org>

Hi all,
	I just received a query: did SunOS 3 have a working mmap(2)? My
vague memory says no, but I don't have access to a 3.5 box any more to
find out. Can anybody help out here?

	Warren


From nao at tom-yam.or.jp  Sun Apr 13 18:13:35 2003
From: nao at tom-yam.or.jp (nao)
Date: Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:13:35 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [TUHS] cross reference tool for pre-K&R C
Message-ID: <200304130813.h3D8DZR6008291@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>

Hi,

I really enjoy hacking ancient unix rather seriously and want a cross
reference tools for them. Since some of them are written in pre-K&R C,
modern tools are not very useful. Is there any cross reference tool
for pre-K&R C source codes?

BTW, early UNIX assembler document has bugs which state '>>' and '<<'
are shift operators despite that really '\>' and '\<' are. I wonder
where these bugs came from...

Cheers,
- nao


From asbesto at freaknet.org  Tue Apr 15 10:00:37 2003
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 00:00:37 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] PDP11/34 boot problems, here i am again :)
Message-ID: <20030415000037.GC378@freaknet.org>

well, 

some months ago i asked for help booting a pdp11/34 here at
freaknet medialab :)

well, i think now we have a more complete knowledge of the REAL
problem !

the M7891 board (128K x 18 bit MOS MEMORY MODULE) have the D2 red 
led light turned ON when turning on the CPU !

this means PARITY ERROR on this board :(

checking the board we found 2 problems:

1) a 74LS175 chip named E15 on our schematic diagram, that seem
   phisically BROKEN on an edge (there is a fessure on the plastic
   DIP package). i can't change it now because i don't have a 
   soldering station here to do a nice job, but looking the chip i
   think it may work...

2) a 5 Kohm 4-resistor bridge named R22 on our diagram, that is phisically
   BROKEN. this bridge give +5V on signals named DATA OC L, CSR OC L, OC L
   and X ADD OC L. i changed it with a 4.7Kohm 4-resistor bridge, without
   any result. (maybe the 74ls175 is really broken :)

an other ipothesys may be: some electrolitic capacitor in short circuit.
we had this problem on a decwriter III ! :)

the real problem is: if we aren't able to repair the M7891 board, where
can we find a "new" one ???

can somebody help us ? it's a shame for us to have our pdp11/34 offline :((

any help is appreciated ! *:)

-- 
[asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on  keyservers]
[ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ]
[http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto :::::: http://kyuzz.org/radiocybernet]
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From GOOI at oce.nl  Tue Apr 15 16:37:20 2003
From: GOOI at oce.nl (Gooijen H)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:37:20 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] PDP11/34 boot problems, here i am again :)
Message-ID: <1A9EACFF5B9EB9489F00104C00ECF6410CBC02@hqvenlomail.oce.nl>

"asbesto" wrote:
> 1) a 74LS175 chip named E15 on our schematic diagram, that seem
>    phisically BROKEN on an edge (there is a fessure on the plastic
>    DIP package). i can't change it now because i don't have a 
>    soldering station here to do a nice job, but looking the chip i
>    think it may work...

I never remove IC's in *one* go. The chances that you damage the
multi-layer board beyond repair are real. This is what I do.
I use a dremel tool (small motor with sharp rotating blade) to
cut the pins of the IC one by one.
Don't use a cutting tool to cut the pins because the side force
might push the remainder of the pin through the solder joint
thus damaging the board.
After you have cut all the pins the IC just falls of the board.
Now, you can use a fine hot soldering iron and remove the pins
one by one use a pair of squeezers.

  good luck with your repairs,

- Henk.


From asbesto at freaknet.org  Tue Apr 15 18:50:11 2003
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 08:50:11 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] PDP11/34 boot problems, here i am again :)
In-Reply-To: <1A9EACFF5B9EB9489F00104C00ECF6410CBC02@hqvenlomail.oce.nl>
References: <1A9EACFF5B9EB9489F00104C00ECF6410CBC02@hqvenlomail.oce.nl>
Message-ID: <20030415085011.GC992@freaknet.org>

Il Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 08:37:20AM +0200, Gooijen H rigurgitava:

> > 1) a 74LS175 chip named E15 on our schematic diagram, that seem
> >    phisically BROKEN on an edge (there is a fessure on the plastic

> I never remove IC's in *one* go. The chances that you damage the
> multi-layer board beyond repair are real. This is what I do.
> I use a dremel tool (small motor with sharp rotating blade) to
> cut the pins of the IC one by one.

yep. me too. i prefer this way. :)))

pray for me ! :)))

-- 
[asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on  keyservers]
[ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ]
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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Wed Apr 16 05:42:24 2003
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:42:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] PDP11/34 boot problems, here i am again :)
Message-ID: <200304151942.h3FJgO900113@opihi.ucsd.edu>

> From: asbesto <asbesto at freaknet.org>
> To: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: [TUHS] PDP11/34 boot problems, here i am again :)
> 
> well, i think now we have a more complete knowledge of the REAL
> problem !
> 
> the M7891 board (128K x 18 bit MOS MEMORY MODULE) have the D2 red=20
> led light turned ON when turning on the CPU !
> 
> this means PARITY ERROR on this board :(
> 
> checking the board we found 2 problems:
> 
> 1) a 74LS175 chip named E15 on our schematic diagram, that seem
>    phisically BROKEN on an edge (there is a fessure on the plastic
>    DIP package). i can't change it now because i don't have a=20
>    soldering station here to do a nice job, but looking the chip i
>    think it may work...

While you probably _do_ have a real hardware problem with the broken
IC, I think that the red Parity Error light on first turn-on is normal
behavior.  The MOS memory comes up with random values, and about half
of them will have the wrong parity.  Some software routine must turn
off parity error detection and write a known data pattern (all 0's) to
each memory location.  I don't remember whether this is something that
is done by the boot ROM of an 11/34.

    carl
-- 
    carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                 clowenst at ucsd.edu



From asbesto at freaknet.org  Wed Apr 16 07:22:42 2003
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 21:22:42 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] PDP11/34 boot problems, here i am again :)
In-Reply-To: <200304151942.h3FJgO900113@opihi.ucsd.edu>
References: <200304151942.h3FJgO900113@opihi.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <20030415212242.GA2131@freaknet.org>

Il Tue, Apr 15, 2003 at 12:42:24PM -0700, Carl Lowenstein rigurgitava:

> While you probably _do_ have a real hardware problem with the broken
> IC, I think that the red Parity Error light on first turn-on is normal
> behavior.  The MOS memory comes up with random values, and about half
> of them will have the wrong parity.  Some software routine must turn
> off parity error detection and write a known data pattern (all 0's) to
> each memory location.  I don't remember whether this is something that
> is done by the boot ROM of an 11/34.

hmmm
but running any code on the pdp11/34 (specifically, some boot 
code) will also result in the red light turn off and on again :(

-- 
[asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on  keyservers]
[ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ]
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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Mon Apr 14 18:43:33 2003
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 10:43:33 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Did SunOS 3 have mmap(2)?
In-Reply-To: <20030411135350.GB54648@minnie.tuhs.org>; from wkt@minnie.tuhs.org on Fri, Apr 11, 2003 at 15:53:50 %z
References: <20030411135350.GB54648@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20030414084333.GI1359@oblina>

On 2003.04.11 15:53 Warren Toomey wrote:

> I just received a query: did SunOS 3 have a working mmap(2)?
I don't know. But you may ask Peter Koch, the director of the Sun3 Zoo:
http://www.sun3zoo.de/
Peter knows everything about Sun 3 hardware and has some in deep
knowledge of SunOS. 
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/




From tfb at cley.com  Thu Apr 17 07:56:48 2003
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 22:56:48 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Did SunOS 3 have mmap(2)?
In-Reply-To: <20030414084333.GI1359@oblina>
References: <20030411135350.GB54648@minnie.tuhs.org>
	<20030414084333.GI1359@oblina>
Message-ID: <16029.53664.37717.64377@cley.com>

* Jochen Kunz wrote:
> I don't know. 

I've just asked someone who knows, and he elaborated my very vague
memory: yes it did, and in fact there was mmap right back, and beyond,
the start of SunOS.  *But* it only mapped devices, particularly
framebuffers, where it was obviously very useful.  SunOS 4 had a
fully-fledged mmap.

I am fairly sure that 4.2BSD had manual pages for mmap, but it didn't
work.

--tim



From lm at bitmover.com  Thu Apr 17 13:45:00 2003
From: lm at bitmover.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:45:00 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Re: TUHS digest, Vol 1 #145 - 2 msgs
In-Reply-To: <200304170249.h3H2nQJ8001840@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <200304170249.h3H2nQJ8001840@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20030417034500.GK26145@work.bitmover.com>

> I am fairly sure that 4.2BSD had manual pages for mmap, but it didn't
> work.

Right.  Joy left Berkeley and joined Sun and the work got done at Sun.
I'm pretty sure that SunOS 4.0 was the first release with mmap working
as it was described.  I was at Sun for the 4.1 release; 4.0 was the new 
VM system, and it wasn't "new" like "we changed some stuff", it was new
as in everything was rewritten.  The 4.0 VM system had segmap, read/write
were implemented with segmap in the kernel (you did a read, the kernel
mapped page, started a bcopy and would fault on itself if the page wasn't
there or had no TLB entry).  Etc.  I have postscript of the papers on
that, still very good reading if someone wants them.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Thu Apr 17 17:49:29 2003
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 09:49:29 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Did SunOS 3 have mmap(2)?
In-Reply-To: <16029.53664.37717.64377@cley.com>; from tfb@cley.com on Wed, Apr 16, 2003 at 23:56:48 CEST
References: <20030411135350.GB54648@minnie.tuhs.org> <20030414084333.GI1359@oblina> <16029.53664.37717.64377@cley.com>
Message-ID: <20030417094929.C173457@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 2003.04.16 23:56 Tim Bradshaw wrote:

> I've just asked someone who knows, and he elaborated my very vague
> memory: yes it did, and in fact there was mmap right back, and beyond,
> the start of SunOS. 
Wasn't some mmap like functionality a central concept of MULTICS long
bevore UNIX was born? (I should read that article about MULTICS on the
web again.) 

> *But* it only mapped devices, particularly
> framebuffers, where it was obviously very useful. 
> SunOS 4 had a fully-fledged mmap.
... mostly for implementing shared libs. (?)

> I am fairly sure that 4.2BSD had manual pages for mmap, but it didn't
> work.
AFAIK BSD got a mmap with the MACH-VM in 4.3BSD-Reno. The old VAX-VM had
no mmap.
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/




From tfb at cley.com  Fri Apr 18 11:10:33 2003
From: tfb at cley.com (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 02:10:33 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Re: TUHS digest, Vol 1 #145 - 2 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20030417034500.GK26145@work.bitmover.com>
References: <200304170249.h3H2nQJ8001840@minnie.tuhs.org>
	<20030417034500.GK26145@work.bitmover.com>
Message-ID: <16031.20617.522109.587474@cley.com>

* Larry McVoy wrote:
> Right.  Joy left Berkeley and joined Sun and the work got done at Sun.
> I'm pretty sure that SunOS 4.0 was the first release with mmap working
> as it was described.  

yes, i think so.  I think 3.x had a special-purpose thing which would
only map devices (and maybe only framebuffers...)

> I was at Sun for the 4.1 release; 4.0 was the new 
> VM system, and it wasn't "new" like "we changed some stuff", it was new
> as in everything was rewritten.  

Or alternatively "new" as in "didn't work very well yet".  I remember
there were things you could do (and do quite easily) in 4.0.1 and
4.0.3 which left the system in a state where it thought it had several
K of memory for paging (and a lot of unused file buffers).

--tim





From lm at bitmover.com  Fri Apr 18 11:35:33 2003
From: lm at bitmover.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 18:35:33 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Re: TUHS digest, Vol 1 #145 - 2 msgs
In-Reply-To: <16031.20617.522109.587474@cley.com>
References: <200304170249.h3H2nQJ8001840@minnie.tuhs.org> <20030417034500.GK26145@work.bitmover.com> <16031.20617.522109.587474@cley.com>
Message-ID: <20030418013533.GN26145@work.bitmover.com>

On Fri, Apr 18, 2003 at 02:10:33AM +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> * Larry McVoy wrote:
> > Right.  Joy left Berkeley and joined Sun and the work got done at Sun.
> > I'm pretty sure that SunOS 4.0 was the first release with mmap working
> > as it was described.  
> 
> yes, i think so.  I think 3.x had a special-purpose thing which would
> only map devices (and maybe only framebuffers...)

Right.

> > I was at Sun for the 4.1 release; 4.0 was the new 
> > VM system, and it wasn't "new" like "we changed some stuff", it was new
> > as in everything was rewritten.  
> 
> Or alternatively "new" as in "didn't work very well yet".  I remember
> there were things you could do (and do quite easily) in 4.0.1 and
> 4.0.3 which left the system in a state where it thought it had several
> K of memory for paging (and a lot of unused file buffers).

Yeah, I know.  So in SunOS 4.x, the buffer cache still existed but it was
used only for inodes and directories, not for file pages.  There were 
problems for sure with the new VM system.  But remember, it was the first
system that gave you mmap() and it really worked.  I remember sales calls
(I was engineering but I could speak "customer") against HP where they
claimed they had mmap but all that meant was that they malloc-ed the 
memory and copied it.  So if you had N processes mapping the same file
it cost N*P in memory.  SunOS got it right.  And we fixed it as we learned
what was broken.  I'm the guy that made sure we didn't dirty 100% of memory
from one process doing
	
	dd if=/dev/zero of=XXX 

There were a lot of other tuning efforts going on at the same time.

Forgive me for getting all maudlin on you, but at the time, Sun was
the *only* place that was doing real OS work.  Nobody else came close.
I fought to get in there and then I walked around for three years saying
"I'd work here for free if I had more money" before I realized that saying
that had a bad effect on my salary :-)  It really was a fantastic time to
be at Sun.  They were doing anything that was cool in OS, everyone else
was just playing catchup, to this day I have not seen anything like it.
Look around today, is Microsoft doing anything cool?  Sure, they understand
UI and they do a fantastic job at it, but in the OS area they can't begin
to compare with Sun.  Microsoft OS engineers at their best are nowhere near
as good as Sun OS engineers at their worst.  

It was one hell of an education.  It's not clear to me where a new engineer
could go today to get a better education.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy              lm at bitmover.com          http://www.bitmover.com/lm


From sobrado at string1.ciencias.uniovi.es  Sat Apr 19 02:56:16 2003
From: sobrado at string1.ciencias.uniovi.es (Igor Sobrado)
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2003 18:56:16 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] 2.11BSD license question: porting software to NetBSD
Message-ID: <200304181656.h3IGuGfC028575@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es>

Hello.

I have just finished porting diction(1) and style(1) from 2.11BSD
to the NetBSD operating system.  Those utilities are a part of the
AT&T Documenter's Workbench (DWB), and are not available on the v7
and 32V UNIX releases.

I asked to the people of the NetBSD Foundation about the possibility
of adding those commands to the base system (as a part of the tarball
with documentation tools) but they think that it is not possible,
as a consequence of a licensing issue.  I supposed that all the
software provided in the 2.11BSD was under a BSD license, but it
looks like 2.11BSD is a closed source release.

Can someone, please, helping me on this matter?  What should I do?
Should I just drop this software?

Cheers,
Igor.

-- 
Igor Sobrado, UK34436 - sobrado at acm.org


From grog at lemis.com  Sat Apr 19 13:55:37 2003
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:25:37 +0930
Subject: [TUHS] 2.11BSD license question: porting software to NetBSD
In-Reply-To: <200304181656.h3IGuGfC028575@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es>
References: <200304181656.h3IGuGfC028575@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es>
Message-ID: <20030419035537.GJ61510@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Friday, 18 April 2003 at 18:56:16 +0200, Igor Sobrado wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I have just finished porting diction(1) and style(1) from 2.11BSD
> to the NetBSD operating system.  Those utilities are a part of the
> AT&T Documenter's Workbench (DWB), and are not available on the v7
> and 32V UNIX releases.
>
> I asked to the people of the NetBSD Foundation about the possibility
> of adding those commands to the base system (as a part of the tarball
> with documentation tools) but they think that it is not possible,
> as a consequence of a licensing issue.  I supposed that all the
> software provided in the 2.11BSD was under a BSD license, but it
> looks like 2.11BSD is a closed source release.

That's not correct any more.  Who were you talking to at the NetBSD
project?

> Can someone, please, helping me on this matter?  What should I do?
> Should I just drop this software?

We discussed the Caldera release of "ancient UNIX" on this mailing
list recently.  Caldera (now SCO again) was supposed to make some kind
of official statement, but it's taking its time.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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From firebug at apk.net  Sat Apr 19 16:33:41 2003
From: firebug at apk.net (Derrik Walker v2.0)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 02:33:41 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] 2.11BSD license question: porting software to NetBSD
In-Reply-To: <20030419035537.GJ61510@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <DCC9CF52-7230-11D7-A9FA-003065C1AC88@apk.net>

On Friday, April 18, 2003, at 11:55 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> On Friday, 18 April 2003 at 18:56:16 +0200, Igor Sobrado wrote:
>
>> Can someone, please, helping me on this matter?  What should I do?
>> Should I just drop this software?
>
> We discussed the Caldera release of "ancient UNIX" on this mailing
> list recently.  Caldera (now SCO again) was supposed to make some kind
> of official statement, but it's taking its time.
>
>

I have been porting some old UNIX stuff to OS X, but am holding off on  
putting it on line till this "official statement" comes out.

Seems to be the safest thing to do.

- Derrik

firebug at apk.net                                                    
http://junior.apk.net/~firebug
------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
---------------------------
Microsoft is a lot better at making money then making good software
         -- Linus Torvalds



From sobrado at string1.ciencias.uniovi.es  Sat Apr 19 17:23:43 2003
From: sobrado at string1.ciencias.uniovi.es (Igor Sobrado)
Date: Sat, 19 Apr 2003 09:23:43 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] 2.11BSD license question: porting software to NetBSD
In-Reply-To: Message from Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog@lemis.com>
 "of Sat, 19 Apr 2003 13:25:37 +0930."
 <20030419035537.GJ61510@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <200304190723.h3J7NhfC029828@string1.ciencias.uniovi.es>

> On Friday, 18 April 2003 at 18:56:16 +0200, Igor Sobrado wrote:
> >
> > I asked to the people of the NetBSD Foundation about the possibility
> > of adding those commands to the base system (as a part of the tarball
> > with documentation tools) but they think that it is not possible,
> > as a consequence of a licensing issue.  I supposed that all the
> > software provided in the 2.11BSD was under a BSD license, but it
> > looks like 2.11BSD is a closed source release.
> 
> That's not correct any more.  Who were you talking to at the NetBSD
> project?

Hi Greg.

I am worried with possible licensing issues with AT&T's Documenter's
Workbench (DWB).  In fact, AT&T retained the copyright and distribution
rights on those parts of the UNIX documentation tools they developed
some years ago.  That is the reason we have [nt]roff, but not
diction (diction(1), explain(1), suggest(1)) and style(1).

Last days, Perry E. Metzger observed that 2.11BSD was closed source:

"And it is closed source. Sorry. We aren't allowed to use code that did
not originate in V7/32V. If Caldera did not specifically release the
sources, we cannot use them. If your claim is that diction and style
were not in 32V, then we have no rights to them."

Well, in a previous email Perry observed that:

"I appreciate all this and I thank you for doing the work, but please
do your work against a version we have clear ability to use."

In short, he does not says that "we cannot add diction(1) and style(1)
to NetBSD" only that *license terms are NOT clear*.

What I do *not* want to do, is asking for adding a piece of code
that will report problems to the NetBSD Foundation.  They are
doing a superb job, and I do not want to start a legal problem
adding some tools whose license is not clear.

On the other hand, Steven M. Schultz observed that "Not 100% - much of
it is covered by the BSD license and the Caldera/SCO/whatever license(s)".
I believe that diction(1) and style(1) are covered by a different
license agreement, but I did not find it in the source code.

> > Can someone, please, helping me on this matter?  What should I do?
> > Should I just drop this software?
> 
> We discussed the Caldera release of "ancient UNIX" on this mailing
> list recently.  Caldera (now SCO again) was supposed to make some kind
> of official statement, but it's taking its time.

Well, there are some operating systems under Caldera's agreement
(a BSD-style license), including v7 and 32V, but looks like 2.11BSD
is *not* under those terms.  In fact, it is not available through
Caldera, it is in tuhs, not covered by Caldera's license agreement.
(at least I think that it is right...)

I am not a lawyer, only a Physics grad student working on a Ph. D.
on CS.  I have no idea about the legal status of 2.11BSD or, to
be more precise, about the status of diction(1) and style(1).

Cheers,
Igor.

-- 
Igor Sobrado, UK34436 - sobrado at acm.org


From nao at tom-yam.or.jp  Sun Apr 20 12:27:56 2003
From: nao at tom-yam.or.jp (nao)
Date: Sun, 20 Apr 2003 11:27:56 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [TUHS] cross reference tool for pre-K&R C
In-Reply-To: nao's message of "Sun, 13 Apr 2003 17:13:35 +0900 (JST)"	<200304130813.h3D8DZR6008291@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>
References: <200304130813.h3D8DZR6008291@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>
Message-ID: <200304200227.h3K2Ruh4059092@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>

Hi,

I found the answer myself. V6 itself has a nifty cref binary and its
source! It is quite impressive how things were neat at that time.

In message "[TUHS] cross reference tool for pre-K&R C"
    on 03/04/13, nao <nao at tom-yam.or.jp> writes:
>I really enjoy hacking ancient unix rather seriously and want a cross
>reference tools for them. Since some of them are written in pre-K&R C,
>modern tools are not very useful. Is there any cross reference tool
>for pre-K&R C source codes?

Regars,

Naoki Hamada


