From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Wed Oct 22 06:41:31 2003
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 22:41:31 +0200
Subject: [pups] 1972-era unix src found
Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E365@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>

Hiyas,

I just unearthed a unix source tree that seems to be dated 1972.  is that of interest, or do
we already have it?

Cheers,
	Fred

--
    InterNetworking, Network Security and Communications Consultants
     MicroWalt Corporation (Netherlands), Postbus 8, 1400 AA BUSSUM
  Phone +31 (35) 7503090 FAX +31 (35) 7503091  http://WWW.MicroWalt.NL/

Dit  bericht  en  eventuele bijlagen is  uitsluitend  bestemd  voor  de
geadresseerde.  Openbaarmaking,   vermenigvuldiging,  verspreiding  aan
derden  is  niet  toegestaan.   Er   wordt   geen  verantwoordelijkheid 
genomen  voor de juiste en  volledige  overbrenging van  de inhoud  van
dit bericht, noch voor de tijdige ontvangst ervan.



From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Wed Oct 22 06:56:21 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 16:56:21 -0400
Subject: [pups] 1972-era unix src found
In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E365@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
Message-ID: <000401c39815$c966d280$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
I don't know about the group at large, Fred, but to me, it is indeed
of interest. I think the servers that host our list, do have it,
stored someplace, but I'm not sure. A suggestion, write private
message to the Owner Warren Toomey wkt at tuhs.org , of the list,
explaining the details. I think he'd be happy to add the details.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Fred N. van Kempen
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 4:42 PM
> To: pups at tuhs.org
> Subject: [pups] 1972-era unix src found
> 
> Hiyas,
> 
> I just unearthed a unix source tree that seems to be dated 1972.  is
that of interest, or
> do
> we already have it?
> 
> Cheers,
> 	Fred
> 
> --
>     InterNetworking, Network Security and Communications Consultants
>      MicroWalt Corporation (Netherlands), Postbus 8, 1400 AA BUSSUM
>   Phone +31 (35) 7503090 FAX +31 (35) 7503091
http://WWW.MicroWalt.NL/
> 
> Dit  bericht  en  eventuele bijlagen is  uitsluitend  bestemd  voor
de
> geadresseerde.  Openbaarmaking,   vermenigvuldiging,  verspreiding
aan
> derden  is  niet  toegestaan.   Er   wordt   geen
verantwoordelijkheid
> genomen  voor de juiste en  volledige  overbrenging van  de inhoud
van
> dit bericht, noch voor de tijdige ontvangst ervan.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups


From grog at lemis.com  Wed Oct 22 08:38:44 2003
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 08:08:44 +0930
Subject: [pups] 1972-era unix src found
In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E365@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E365@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
Message-ID: <20031021223844.GA33152@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 21 October 2003 at 22:41:31 +0200, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
> Hiyas,
>

> I just unearthed a unix source tree that seems to be dated 1972.  is
> that of interest,

Most definitely!

> or do we already have it?

The only stuff we have is dmr's nsys code from this era (January
1973).  It's only the kernel.  My guess is that your code would almost
certainly be different, though if it's in C it's unlikely to be quite
that old.  Please put it up somewhere and I'm sure that Warren will
pull it across to the archives pretty soon.  In the meantime, I'd
certainly like to take a look at it.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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From premke at ess-wowi.de  Thu Oct 30 22:43:18 2003
From: premke at ess-wowi.de (Mario Premke)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 13:43:18 +0100
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD ftp to moe.2bsd.com
Message-ID: <EDECLJGBBDNMPACDPHMCGEGACAAA.premke@ess-wowi.de>

Hello list,
there is the 2.11 BSD on moe.2bsd.com. I wonder why there aren't any
filenames but only numbers instead. Is there somewhere a tar-archive of
2.11BSD on the net?
Thanks
Mario


From premke at ess-wowi.de  Thu Oct 30 23:07:12 2003
From: premke at ess-wowi.de (Mario Premke)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 14:07:12 +0100
Subject: AW: [pups] 2.11BSD ftp to moe.2bsd.com
In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E3AF@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
Message-ID: <EDECLJGBBDNMPACDPHMCEEGBCAAA.premke@ess-wowi.de>

Thanks,

those are the patch kits, Mario.  You grab a system, then patch it
up to 'current' with those patches.

I expected something like that - any idea where to grab a system?

Every now and then, a kind sould releases a fully 'current' system.

Are there any old <fully 'current' systems> around? 
Has anybody tried to run it on an emulator?

mario

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mario Premke [mailto:premke at ess-wowi.de]
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 1:43 PM
> To: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD ftp to moe.2bsd.com
> 
> 
> Hello list,
> there is the 2.11 BSD on moe.2bsd.com. I wonder why there aren't any
> filenames but only numbers instead. Is there somewhere a 
> tar-archive of
> 2.11BSD on the net?
> Thanks
> Mario
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> 


From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca  Fri Oct 31 00:08:23 2003
From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 09:08:23 -0500
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD ftp to moe.2bsd.com
In-Reply-To: <EDECLJGBBDNMPACDPHMCEEGBCAAA.premke@ess-wowi.de>
References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E3AF@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
	<EDECLJGBBDNMPACDPHMCEEGBCAAA.premke@ess-wowi.de>
Message-ID: <20031030140823.GB6609@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 02:07:12PM +0100, Mario Premke wrote:
> 
> Are there any old <fully 'current' systems> around? 

  Check out "The Unix Archive", e.g.,

http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/pups/PDP-11/Distributions/ucb/2.11BSD/

PUPS (http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/index.html) has a link to various mirrors.

Once you get things installed, check /VERSION.  That will tell you the
patch level of what you have running; IIRC the files above are about ten
or so patches behind.  Not that bad.

> Has anybody tried to run it on an emulator?
> 

  I ran it once on, IIRC, SIMH and it worked fine.

-- 
David Evans                                         dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Wed Oct  1 05:02:20 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 15:02:20 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGEENIMCAA.jmbw@nather.com>
Message-ID: <000101c38785$60b23e00$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
Just for the sake of argument, Markus, what was your build environment
for your SRC RPM version of SIMH? Personally I use Slackware Linux
here, and the source code files straight from Bob's site. Also, that
site kept wanting to set a cookie on my machine here. Is that a normal
process? 

Incidentally, the folks building Linux for the VAX, also use SIMH/VAX
for testing, and sometimes even they have problems. So the comment
regarding this product, and the VAX simulation is valid, just needs to
be further tested.

I, myself, have used it, to boot either VAX VMS, (Didnt workout how
to install it on blank disk though.). or a relative of what we
discuss, as well.  
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Markus Weber
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 9:05 AM
> To: Joseph F. Young; tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
> 
> Thanks to your help it works. Please see
> 
>
http://www.itsecuritygeek.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=ar
ticl
> e&
> sid=22
> 
> for an annotated installation transcript. You'll find a
pre-installed disk
> image in the site's Download section.
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joseph F. Young [mailto:jy99 at swbell.net]
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:50 PM
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Cc: jy99 at swbell.net
> Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
> 
> 
>  From my experience, you need to have a recent release of SIMH in
order to
> run 4.3BSD.  A few months ago, I managed to build "working"
Quasijarus and
> Reno disk images (Quasijarus appears to work fine for me, but Reno
is as
> buggy as I remember it being on real hardware).  I had to use Ultrix
and
> Netbsd to do the bootstrap/install; I could not get the tape boot to
work
> at all.
> 
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Wed Oct  1 11:00:48 2003
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:00:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGAENNMCAA.jmbw@nather.com>
Message-ID: <000301c387b7$74a8f2a0$0100a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
The RPM file provided didn't build correctly. Remember I did say that
I use Slackware. I don't have a running instance of Red Hat here.
However, I was able to build a copy of SIMH straight from the current
source code.  One thing does get to me, though. This creation moves a
lot slower on SIMH/VAX, then NetBSD, which worked well enough. I'm
guessing that this is indeed a populated pack you have here, but do
you have any idea as to why it's practically moving slower then a
tortoise? This is running on a Pentium 100.

As to your question, yes they are working on it, moving through the
2.4.2x series of kernels. It isn't pretty, but it is working. If you
want to join the list to offer complements, or comments, or just lurk,
go to their website, and tell the list-manager that I sent you. He'll
give you a good seat.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Markus Weber [mailto:jmbw at nather.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 3:40 PM
> To: Gregg C Levine
> Subject: RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
> 
> Hi Gregg!
> 
> The src.rpm was built on Redhat 7.3, but you should be able to
rebuild in on
> a more recent version of Redhat. There is, however, no reason not to
do a
> straight recompile of the simh sources. I simply prefer to package
> everything and thought I may save somebody else the bother.
> 
> My site runs Postnuke, which uses cookies internally. Unless you
want to
> create an account and login, I doubt that it matters one way or the
other if
> you reject the cookies or not.
> 
> I would guess that the primary objective of simh/vax is to run
OpenVMS,
> which it does just fine for me. If you wish, I can dig up a URL for
a
> beautiful installation-on-simh write-up. You can really follow the
standard
> instructions to the letter once simh is set up properly.
> 
> It looks like simh can run most, if not all, BSD's. I'm happy with
> Quasijaro - it has a certain sentimental value to observe 4.3BSD in
its
> native habitat. Quasijaro has issues, but they can be worked around.
NetBSD
> 1.5.2 works with a very minor install-time glitch. OpenBSD is the
one I
> still haven't figured out; there's an odd fatal error when mounting
the root
> filesystem. Or rather, there's something very odd about the in-core
> disklabel. Come to think of it, there is a common theme of problems
relating
> to disk labels and first-time access of disks. By and large, it's
not clear
> (to me) in any of these cases if the emulation is broken or simply
exposes
> flaws in the OS.
> 
> So the Linux/Vax project is still alive?
> 
> Cheers
> -Markus
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gregg C Levine [mailto:hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 2:02 PM
> To: 'Markus Weber'; tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
> 
> 
> Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
> Just for the sake of argument, Markus, what was your build
environment
> for your SRC RPM version of SIMH? Personally I use Slackware Linux
> here, and the source code files straight from Bob's site. Also, that
> site kept wanting to set a cookie on my machine here. Is that a
normal
> process?
> 
> Incidentally, the folks building Linux for the VAX, also use
SIMH/VAX
> for testing, and sometimes even they have problems. So the comment
> regarding this product, and the VAX simulation is valid, just needs
to
> be further tested.
> 
> I, myself, have used it, to boot either VAX VMS, (Didnt workout how
> to install it on blank disk though.). or a relative of what we
> discuss, as well.
> -------------------
> Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> "The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
> "Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
> (This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
> (This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
> [mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> > Behalf Of Markus Weber
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 9:05 AM
> > To: Joseph F. Young; tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> > Subject: RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
> >
> > Thanks to your help it works. Please see
> >
> >
>
http://www.itsecuritygeek.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=ar
> ticl
> > e&
> > sid=22
> >
> > for an annotated installation transcript. You'll find a
> pre-installed disk
> > image in the site's Download section.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joseph F. Young [mailto:jy99 at swbell.net]
> > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 1:50 PM
> > To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> > Cc: jy99 at swbell.net
> > Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
> >
> >
> >  From my experience, you need to have a recent release of SIMH in
> order to
> > run 4.3BSD.  A few months ago, I managed to build "working"
> Quasijarus and
> > Reno disk images (Quasijarus appears to work fine for me, but Reno
> is as
> > buggy as I remember it being on real hardware).  I had to use
Ultrix
> and
> > Netbsd to do the bootstrap/install; I could not get the tape boot
to
> work
> > at all.
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TUHS mailing list
> > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003
> 
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003


From jmbw at nather.com  Wed Oct  1 12:46:46 2003
From: jmbw at nather.com (Markus Weber)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:46:46 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <000301c387b7$74a8f2a0$0100a8c0@who5>
Message-ID: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGKEOAMCAA.jmbw@nather.com>

I wasn't even aware that Slackware had rpm... If you send me a typescript of
the build attempt, I can have a look. The version of rpm itself would also
help.

If you mean that the pre-installed system is slow, all I can say is that in
my environment all the BSDs perform well enough for light interactive use,
but running a compiler is not fun. OpenBSD/Vax takes about four hours to
recompile the generic kernel on a dual-1Ghz PIII. BTW, does NetBSD
outperform Quasijarus on real hardware? I suggest, however, to take the
performance analyis offlist and post the results at a later date.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gregg C Levine [mailto:hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 8:01 PM
To: 'Markus Weber'
Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive


Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
The RPM file provided didn't build correctly. Remember I did say that
I use Slackware. I don't have a running instance of Red Hat here.
However, I was able to build a copy of SIMH straight from the current
source code.  One thing does get to me, though. This creation moves a
lot slower on SIMH/VAX, then NetBSD, which worked well enough. I'm
guessing that this is indeed a populated pack you have here, but do
you have any idea as to why it's practically moving slower then a
tortoise? This is running on a Pentium 100.

As to your question, yes they are working on it, moving through the
2.4.2x series of kernels. It isn't pretty, but it is working. If you
want to join the list to offer complements, or comments, or just lurk,
go to their website, and tell the list-manager that I sent you. He'll
give you a good seat.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003


From robert at timetraveller.org  Wed Oct  1 13:13:43 2003
From: robert at timetraveller.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 23:13:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGKEOAMCAA.jmbw@nather.com>
References: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGKEOAMCAA.jmbw@nather.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0309302311320.11192@zen.canint.timetraveller.org>

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Markus Weber wrote:

> I wasn't even aware that Slackware had rpm... If you send me a typescript of
> the build attempt, I can have a look. The version of rpm itself would also
> help.

If worse comes to worse the Linux utility alien will convert debs, rpms
and .tgz files into each other.  Thanks to the Linux Standards Base the
resulting file is _usually_ pretty ok for installation (a bit of munging
may be required, add salt to taste).

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert at timetraveller.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net
Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org)
"The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah

From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Oct  1 17:10:30 2003
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:10:30 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGKEOAMCAA.jmbw@nather.com>;
	from jmbw@nather.com on Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 04:46:46 CEST
References: <000301c387b7$74a8f2a0$0100a8c0@who5>
	<PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGKEOAMCAA.jmbw@nather.com>
Message-ID: <20031001091030.C75184@MissSophie.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 2003.10.01 04:46 Markus Weber wrote:

> BTW, does NetBSD outperform Quasijarus on real hardware? 
No. NetBSD has ELF and shared libs. The later saves space but involves
some overhead. When it comes to compiling NetBSD looses. NetBSD uses
GCC. GCC is _very_ slow. GCC 3.x is even slower. 4.3BSD-Tahoe /
Quasijarus uses pcc that is _much_ faster in compiling. I did a "make
world" of 4.3BSD-Tahoe on a KA655 based MicroVAX III and it took a day
or so. I would not even try this with NetBSD (as I have much faster NVAX
machines for this).

The thing with NetBSD is that you get a modern *ix like OS complete with
ssh etc. and features like mmap(2) that 4.3BSD-Tahoe doesn't have. If
you are running a VAX emulator on PeeCee hardware you can use the
exelent cross compile features of NetBSD to cross build kernels on your
PeeCee. (Or Alpha, PowerPC, UltraSparc, ...) You don't even need to run
NetBSD on the compile host. 
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


From jmbw at nather.com  Thu Oct  2 01:33:15 2003
From: jmbw at nather.com (Markus Weber)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 10:33:15 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <0309262047.AA07364@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGAEOFMCAA.jmbw@nather.com>

I found out a bit more.

For any non-OpenVMS OS I tried on simh/vax (read: different flavors of BSD),
disk initialization is a common problem area. NetBSD glitches on mounting
the installation CD/disk, Quasijarus has a hard time deciding which disks
are online and which are not, and finally OpenBSD installs without problem,
but fails when mounting the root filesystem when it boots off ra0a. I can
however boot off the install-time kernel on the floppy disk and access the
partitions on ra0 just fine.

It became apparent that OpenBSD's in-core disk label defaulted to data
matching the c partition where the a partition should have been. After more
digging, it seemed that ra_putonline was called, but rx_putonline must have
failed somehow. To add insult to injury, after adding a few printf
statements to rx_putonline the OpenBSD sort-of-GENERIC kernel now boots.

Here's the relevant block of code:

rx_putonline(rx)
        struct rx_softc *rx;
{
        struct  mscp *mp;
        struct  mscp_softc *mi = (struct mscp_softc *)rx->ra_dev.dv_parent;
        volatile int i;

printf("entered rx_putonline\n");
        rx->ra_state = DK_CLOSED;
        mp = mscp_getcp(mi, MSCP_WAIT);
        mp->mscp_opcode = M_OP_ONLINE;
        mp->mscp_unit = rx->ra_hwunit;
        mp->mscp_cmdref = 1;
        *mp->mscp_addr |= MSCP_OWN | MSCP_INT;

        /* Poll away */
        i = bus_space_read_2(mi->mi_iot, mi->mi_iph, 0);
        if (tsleep(&rx->ra_dev.dv_unit, PRIBIO, "rxonline", 100*100))
                rx->ra_state = DK_CLOSED;
printf("rx->ra_state = %d\n",rx->ra_state);
        if (rx->ra_state == DK_CLOSED)
                return MSCP_FAILED;
printf("rx_putonline returns DONE\n");
        return MSCP_DONE;
}

My guess is that the very first printf upsets the emulation timing just
enough to make things work. I'd have to read more code and RQDX3
documentation to take this further, but maybe this is enough to go on to
make it obvious to somebody else why Quasijarus on simh exhibits these
awfully long disk probe timeouts. I hope that once this problem has been
narrowed down a bit more, a fix to simh/vax will make all BSDs happy.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Sokolov [mailto:msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG]
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 3:48 PM
To: jmbw at nather.com; tuhs at tuhs.org
Subject: RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive


[...] If so, SIMH's MSCP emulation must be lacking in quality.

[...]But I will grant the possibility that the kernel is not w/o fault
either in that
perhaps it's going south (dereferencing a garbage pointer and crashing) when
the
MSCP controller (in this case SIMH's poor emulation) is doing something it
doesn't expect.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003


From kstailey at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  2 02:56:00 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 09:56:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGAEOFMCAA.jmbw@nather.com>
Message-ID: <20031001165600.32320.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Markus Weber <jmbw at nather.com> wrote:
> I found out a bit more.
> 
> For any non-OpenVMS OS I tried on simh/vax (read: different flavors of BSD),
> disk initialization is a common problem area. NetBSD glitches on mounting
> the installation CD/disk, Quasijarus has a hard time deciding which disks
> are online and which are not, and finally OpenBSD installs without problem,
> but fails when mounting the root filesystem when it boots off ra0a. I can
> however boot off the install-time kernel on the floppy disk and access the
> partitions on ra0 just fine.
> 
> It became apparent that OpenBSD's in-core disk label defaulted to data
> matching the c partition where the a partition should have been. After more
> digging, it seemed that ra_putonline was called, but rx_putonline must have
> failed somehow. To add insult to injury, after adding a few printf
> statements to rx_putonline the OpenBSD sort-of-GENERIC kernel now boots.
> 
> Here's the relevant block of code:
> 
> rx_putonline(rx)
>         struct rx_softc *rx;
> {
>         struct  mscp *mp;
>         struct  mscp_softc *mi = (struct mscp_softc *)rx->ra_dev.dv_parent;
>         volatile int i;
> 
> printf("entered rx_putonline\n");
>         rx->ra_state = DK_CLOSED;
>         mp = mscp_getcp(mi, MSCP_WAIT);
>         mp->mscp_opcode = M_OP_ONLINE;
>         mp->mscp_unit = rx->ra_hwunit;
>         mp->mscp_cmdref = 1;
>         *mp->mscp_addr |= MSCP_OWN | MSCP_INT;
> 
>         /* Poll away */
>         i = bus_space_read_2(mi->mi_iot, mi->mi_iph, 0);
>         if (tsleep(&rx->ra_dev.dv_unit, PRIBIO, "rxonline", 100*100))
>                 rx->ra_state = DK_CLOSED;
> printf("rx->ra_state = %d\n",rx->ra_state);
>         if (rx->ra_state == DK_CLOSED)
>                 return MSCP_FAILED;
> printf("rx_putonline returns DONE\n");
>         return MSCP_DONE;
> }
> 
> My guess is that the very first printf upsets the emulation timing just
> enough to make things work. I'd have to read more code and RQDX3
> documentation to take this further, but maybe this is enough to go on to
> make it obvious to somebody else why Quasijarus on simh exhibits these
> awfully long disk probe timeouts. I hope that once this problem has been
> narrowed down a bit more, a fix to simh/vax will make all BSDs happy.

My first guess would be that there should be more "volatile" keywords used.  I
think the printf()s cause the compiler to not discard some varibles.  Does it
work without the printf()s if you don't use "-O" (or "-O2", etc) optimization? 
I think gcc does not elminitate varibles ever when the code is not optimized.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Sokolov [mailto:msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG]
> Sent: Friday, September 26, 2003 3:48 PM
> To: jmbw at nather.com; tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: RE: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
> 
> 
> [...] If so, SIMH's MSCP emulation must be lacking in quality.
> 
> [...]But I will grant the possibility that the kernel is not w/o fault
> either in that
> perhaps it's going south (dereferencing a garbage pointer and crashing) when
> the
> MSCP controller (in this case SIMH's poor emulation) is doing something it
> doesn't expect.
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


__________________________________
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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Thu Oct  2 00:39:31 2003
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 03 07:39:31 PDT
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
Message-ID: <0310011439.AA09918@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:

> The thing with NetBSD is that you get a modern *ix like OS complete with
> ssh etc. and features like mmap(2) that 4.3BSD-Tahoe doesn't have.

Just a nitpick, but ssh is available for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus, look for it in:

ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG:/pub/unix/apps/

But yes, NetBSD is a "modern *ix", not UNIX, which is why I can't stand it.  My
love for UNIX as opposed to "modern *ix"'s is what made me create and run
4.3BSD-Quasijarus.  Since I use it as my sole and only OS for my real world
computing needs, not a hobby, I have everything for it that one needs in
everyday life, including ssh, httpd, Russian support, PostScript support, PPP
support, etc.  But it's still pure 4.3BSD as all of the latter are just user
applications.

MS

From jmbw at nather.com  Thu Oct  2 07:07:34 2003
From: jmbw at nather.com (Markus Weber)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 16:07:34 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <20031001165600.32320.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGEEOMMCAA.jmbw@nather.com>

>From: Kenneth Stailey [mailto:kstailey at yahoo.com]

>My first guess would be that there should be more "volatile" keywords used.
I
>think the printf()s cause the compiler to not discard some varibles.  Does
it
>work without the printf()s if you don't use "-O" (or "-O2", etc)
optimization?
>I think gcc does not elminitate varibles ever when the code is not
optimized.

Doesn't seem to make a difference, but I'll double-check.

I could be wrong, but I believe the printf will return as soon as the
physical output of the message has started - if so, it can very conceivably
affect the "real-time" behaviour of the code interfacing with the RQDX3.
Just a guess.
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.520 / Virus Database: 318 - Release Date: 9/18/2003


From robert at timetraveller.org  Fri Oct  3 01:48:11 2003
From: robert at timetraveller.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2003 11:48:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 4.3 BSD version in the Unix Archive
In-Reply-To: <0310011439.AA09918@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
References: <0310011439.AA09918@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0310021141080.28547@zen.canint.timetraveller.org>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Michael Sokolov wrote:

> But yes, NetBSD is a "modern *ix", not UNIX, which is why I can't stand it.  My

The last thing I want to do is start a "flavour war" but I really am
interested in why you don't like "modern *ix" as opposed to say 4.3BSD
(which you mention later).

For reference I'm probably a youngin relative to alot on this list.  My
first unix was SunOS 4.1.3 in 1992 but much of my experience has been as
an admin for Solaris and Linux.  I've had smaller amounts of experience
with Free/NetBSD, SCO Openserver and AIX.

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert at timetraveller.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net
Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org)
"The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah

From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Tue Oct  7 19:52:14 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2003 22:52:14 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] Epiphany?
Message-ID: <200310072252.14366.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

I downloaded 32V after thinking and thinking and thinking about it, and of 
course untarred and defeathered it, then had a look at some of the source 
code.

I got a buzz out of reading it!  (I usually don't give myself time to read 
source code, so I suppose I get out of the habit of thinking of it as a 
pleasure.  And University tends to make one think of it as a chore ;^)

Just thought I'd pass that on - and thanks to everybody - AT&T, UOC at Berkeley, 
SCO, Caldera and PUPS/TUHS for allowing me my unexpected pleasures!

Much appreciated!

Wesley Parish
-- 
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From nao at tom-yam.or.jp  Sat Oct 18 19:19:47 2003
From: nao at tom-yam.or.jp (nao)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 18:19:47 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX/32V
Message-ID: <200310180919.h9I9Jlxv018721@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>

Hi,

I am interested in the history of VAX unices. On the modern extreme, I
obtained a pretty VAXstation 4000/VLC and it runs NetBSD now. I am
more than happy to play the original rogue from 4.2BSD. On the ancient
extreme, since I dare not to tame a beast like PDP-11/780, I am
reading various papers and codes.

Now I am searching for the original article of UNIX/32V: T. B. London
& J. F. Reiser, ``A UNIX Operating System for the DEC VAX-11/780
Computer,'' Technical Report TM-78-1353-4, Bell Laboratories, Murray
Hill, NJ(July 1978), but it seems quite hard to find it. Is there
anyone who can tell me how can I obtain a copy?

Regards,

-nao

From robert at timetraveller.org  Sun Oct 19 02:21:46 2003
From: robert at timetraveller.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 12:21:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX/32V
In-Reply-To: <200310180919.h9I9Jlxv018721@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>
References: <200310180919.h9I9Jlxv018721@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0310181217130.11494@zen.canint.timetraveller.org>

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, nao wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I am interested in the history of VAX unices. On the modern extreme, I
> obtained a pretty VAXstation 4000/VLC and it runs NetBSD now. I am
> more than happy to play the original rogue from 4.2BSD. On the ancient
> extreme, since I dare not to tame a beast like PDP-11/780, I am

There are a number of PDP-11 emulators around these days, one of
these might be the way to go.  Some links:

http://simh.trailing-edge.com/
http://www.pdp11.org/
http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp11emu.html
http://www.dbit.com/

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert at timetraveller.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net
Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org)
"The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah

From kstailey at yahoo.com  Sun Oct 19 06:07:08 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2003 13:07:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Peter H. Salus comments on introduction of VAX
Message-ID: <20031018200708.21975.qmail@web10001.mail.yahoo.com>

Admittedly the page is a rant from 1997 but it does have a few tidbits.

Page is here:

http://www.mids.org/pay/mn/704/bits.html

Excerpt about VAX:

<< And it's over 20 years since Gordon Bell came up with his ideas for a DEC
family with a 32-bit architecture. That was implemented by Bill Demmer, Larry
Portner, and Bill Strecker as DEC's VAX line: Virtual Address Extension. Bell's
notion allowed DEC to produce a line of computers that continues today, and
certainly occupied a number of desktops over 15 years ago.

When the VAX was ``pre-announced,'' the Unix architects at Bell Labs had become
disillusioned with DEC, they didn't like VMS and they thought that the VAX had
an ``offensively fat instruction set.'' Anyway, Steve Johnson and Dennis
Ritchie were working on their Unix port to the Interdata. (Which Steve referred
to as the ``Intersnail.'')

So DEC approached Charlie Roberts at AT&T in Holmdel, NJ. Tom London, John
Reiser and Ken Swanson were interested; they got a VAX in early 1978. In three
months they ported Version 7 to the VAX. Roberts told me: ``We got the machine
in January, they had it running in April, and by August it really worked.'' >>

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From dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com  Sun Oct 19 15:12:01 2003
From: dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com (Dennis Ritchie)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:12:01 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Peter H. Salus comments (+32V)
Message-ID: <5017f0c843b743ca4605973b364295e5@plan9.bell-labs.com>

Peter Salus is quoted as saying

 > ...
 > When the VAX was ``pre-announced,'' the Unix architects at Bell Labs had become
 > disillusioned with DEC, they didn't like VMS and they thought that the VAX had
 > an ``offensively fat instruction set.'' Anyway, Steve Johnson and Dennis
 > Ritchie were working on their Unix port to the Interdata. (Which Steve referred
 > to as the ``Intersnail.'')

We were far from disillusioned, either with the company
or the design; see my contemporary transcription of Ossanna's
notes of the preannouncement presentation.

	http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/vax.html

But it is true that our own attention was focussed on the Interdata
work at the time; not only was it underway, but for stretching
portability it looked useful to work on an architecture that
was Not "culturally compatible" with the PDP-11.

 > So DEC approached Charlie Roberts at AT&T in Holmdel, NJ. Tom London, John
 > Reiser and Ken Swanson were interested; they got a VAX in early 1978. In three
 > months they ported Version 7 to the VAX. Roberts told me: ``We got the machine
 > in January, they had it running in April, and by August it really worked.'' >>

and indeed left the Vax port to Reiser and London.  (VMS
didn't figure into the equation.)

A later poster, nao, asked about London and Reiser's memo
about their work on what became 32V (TM-78-1353-4).
This seems to be in the company archives, but not in scanned form.
I've ordered a paper copy, but the mechanism sometimes
is a black hole.

	Dennis


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Sun Oct 19 16:46:27 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 19:46:27 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX/32V
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0310181217130.11494@zen.canint.timetraveller.org>
References: <200310180919.h9I9Jlxv018721@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.58.0310181217130.11494@zen.canint.timetraveller.org>
Message-ID: <200310191946.27302.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

I was wondering as well, are there any VAX assembler manuals online, in an 
easily-copyable form?

I've encountered html ones, but that isn't quite what I mean.

Wesley Parish

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 05:21, Robert Brockway wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Oct 2003, nao wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I am interested in the history of VAX unices. On the modern extreme, I
> > obtained a pretty VAXstation 4000/VLC and it runs NetBSD now. I am
> > more than happy to play the original rogue from 4.2BSD. On the ancient
> > extreme, since I dare not to tame a beast like PDP-11/780, I am
>
> There are a number of PDP-11 emulators around these days, one of
> these might be the way to go.  Some links:
>
> http://simh.trailing-edge.com/
> http://www.pdp11.org/
> http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp11emu.html
> http://www.dbit.com/
>
> Rob

-- 
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From robert at timetraveller.org  Sun Oct 19 16:55:13 2003
From: robert at timetraveller.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 02:55:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX/32V
In-Reply-To: <200310191946.27302.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <200310180919.h9I9Jlxv018721@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>
 <Pine.LNX.4.58.0310181217130.11494@zen.canint.timetraveller.org>
 <200310191946.27302.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0310190254400.21504@zen.canint.timetraveller.org>

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, Wesley Parish wrote:

> I was wondering as well, are there any VAX assembler manuals online, in an
> easily-copyable form?

Have you tried using tools like html2text?  Maybe they will do a decent
job for you.

Rob

-- 
Robert Brockway B.Sc. email: robert at timetraveller.org, zzbrock at uqconnect.net
Linux counter project ID #16440 (http://counter.li.org)
"The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens" -Baha'u'llah

From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Sun Oct 19 18:20:12 2003
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 04:20:12 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX/32V
Message-ID: <20031019082054.EB1A81E85@minnie.tuhs.org>

Wesley Parish:

  I was wondering as well, are there any VAX assembler manuals online, in an 
  easily-copyable form?

  I've encountered html ones, but that isn't quite what I mean.

What do you mean, then?  In what way isn't HTML suitable?
I don't mean to be obstreperous; I just think it would be
easier to help if you made it clearer what you need and
what you don't.

To split hairs further, what do you mean by `VAX assembler
manual'?  There's a paper named Assember Reference Manual
that came in Berkeley's Volume 2C for 3BSD, written by
Reiser (Bell Labs) and Henry (Berkeley); it is a compact
description of syntax and pseudo-ops, but doesn't list or
explain the VAX instruction set itself.

The best reference I know for the VAX instruction set is
the official DEC manual called VAX Architecture Reference
Manual (EK-VAXAR-RM), but at more than 500 pages it is not
easily-copyable even in the way we thought of copying when
it was published, i.e. that depicted on the cover of the
latter-day Lions book.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Sun Oct 19 19:35:32 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:35:32 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX/32V
In-Reply-To: <20031019082054.EB1A81E85@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20031019082054.EB1A81E85@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <200310192235.32156.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:20, Norman Wilson wrote:
> Wesley Parish:
>
>   I was wondering as well, are there any VAX assembler manuals online, in
> an easily-copyable form?
>
>   I've encountered html ones, but that isn't quite what I mean.
>
> What do you mean, then?  In what way isn't HTML suitable?
> I don't mean to be obstreperous; I just think it would be
> easier to help if you made it clearer what you need and
> what you don't.

I'm a bit more used to using PDF for that purpose, since PDF data resides in a 
single file - ergo, easier downloads.

>
> To split hairs further, what do you mean by `VAX assembler
> manual'?  There's a paper named Assember Reference Manual
> that came in Berkeley's Volume 2C for 3BSD, written by
> Reiser (Bell Labs) and Henry (Berkeley); it is a compact
> description of syntax and pseudo-ops, but doesn't list or
> explain the VAX instruction set itself.

That would get me part of the way.

>
> The best reference I know for the VAX instruction set is
> the official DEC manual called VAX Architecture Reference
> Manual (EK-VAXAR-RM), but at more than 500 pages it is not
> easily-copyable even in the way we thought of copying when
> it was published, i.e. that depicted on the cover of the
> latter-day Lions book.

Does anyone have a pdf of it?  Or know where I could get a copy?

I know, I'll start googling for it right away.

Wesley Parish

>
> Norman Wilson
> Toronto ON
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From kim at techno-link.com  Sun Oct 19 23:00:21 2003
From: kim at techno-link.com (Kroumovi, Ivaylo & Mladena)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 16:00:21 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX/32V
In-Reply-To: <200310191946.27302.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <200310180919.h9I9Jlxv018721@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>
	<Pine.LNX.4.58.0310181217130.11494@zen.canint.timetraveller.org>
	<200310191946.27302.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <3F928AE5.8040108@techno-link.com>

Wesley Parish wrote:

> I was wondering as well, are there any VAX assembler manuals online, in an
> easily-copyable form?
>
> I've encountered html ones, but that isn't quite what I mean.
>
> Wesley Parish

here's some vax assembly manuals i found recently:

brief, 15 pages description:

	"VAX Architecture & Assembly Reference"
	Rochester Institute of Technology, 2001 ??
	http://www.cs.rit.edu/~icss352/document/vax_pkt.pdf

huge, 500+ pages, ultra-comprehensive:

	"VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual"
	Compaq Computer Corporation, 2001
	http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/pdf/OVMS_73_VAX_MACRO_REF.pdf

ivak

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From kstailey at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 20 00:36:41 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 07:36:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Peter H. Salus comments (+32V)
In-Reply-To: <5017f0c843b743ca4605973b364295e5@plan9.bell-labs.com>
Message-ID: <20031019143641.46445.qmail@web10006.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Dennis Ritchie <dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> Peter Salus is quoted as saying
> 
>> ...
>> When the VAX was ``pre-announced,'' the Unix architects at Bell
>> Labs had become disillusioned with DEC, they didn't like VMS and
>> they thought that the VAX had an ``offensively fat instruction
>> set.'' Anyway, Steve Johnson and Dennis Ritchie were working on
>> their Unix port to the Interdata. (Which Steve referred to as the
>> ``Intersnail.'')
> 
> We were far from disillusioned, either with the company
> or the design [...]

Yes, perhap Peter was confused by the propaganda coming from the
groups that were disillusioned such as the PDP-10 crowd who did not
want to give up their luxury mainframes for the VAX.

> [...] 
> A later poster, nao, asked about London and Reiser's memo
> about their work on what became 32V (TM-78-1353-4).
> This seems to be in the company archives, but not in scanned form.
> I've ordered a paper copy, but the mechanism sometimes
> is a black hole.
> 
> 	Dennis

Thanks, this will be a great addition to TUHS if it works out.

Ken


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search
http://shopping.yahoo.com

From nao at tom-yam.or.jp  Mon Oct 20 00:58:48 2003
From: nao at tom-yam.or.jp (Naoki Hamada)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 23:58:48 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Peter H. Salus comments (+32V)
In-Reply-To: Dennis Ritchie's message of "Sun, 19 Oct 2003 01:12:01 -0400"
	<5017f0c843b743ca4605973b364295e5@plan9.bell-labs.com>
References: <5017f0c843b743ca4605973b364295e5@plan9.bell-labs.com>
Message-ID: <200310191458.h9JEwm58029878@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>

Hi,

In message "[TUHS] Re: Peter H. Salus comments (+32V)"
    on 03/10/19, Dennis Ritchie <dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com> writes:
>A later poster, nao, asked about London and Reiser's memo
>about their work on what became 32V (TM-78-1353-4).
>This seems to be in the company archives, but not in scanned form.
>I've ordered a paper copy, but the mechanism sometimes
>is a black hole.

I would appreciate it if you would make it available by some means. I
hope it is still nearer than the event horizon of the black hole.

-nao

From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Mon Oct 20 17:45:56 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:45:56 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX/32V
In-Reply-To: <3F928AE5.8040108@techno-link.com>
References: <200310180919.h9I9Jlxv018721@miffy.tom-yam.or.jp>
 <200310191946.27302.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
 <3F928AE5.8040108@techno-link.com>
Message-ID: <200310202045.57218.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 02:00, Kroumovi, Ivaylo & Mladena wrote:
> Wesley Parish wrote:
> > I was wondering as well, are there any VAX assembler manuals online, in
> > an easily-copyable form?
> >
> > I've encountered html ones, but that isn't quite what I mean.
> >
> > Wesley Parish
>
> here's some vax assembly manuals i found recently:
>
> brief, 15 pages description:
>
> 	"VAX Architecture & Assembly Reference"
> 	Rochester Institute of Technology, 2001 ??
> 	http://www.cs.rit.edu/~icss352/document/vax_pkt.pdf
>
> huge, 500+ pages, ultra-comprehensive:
>
> 	"VAX MACRO and Instruction Set Reference Manual"
> 	Compaq Computer Corporation, 2001
> 	http://h71000.www7.hp.com/doc/73final/documentation/pdf/OVMS_73_VAX_MACRO_
>REF.pdf

Thanks!  I've started downloading them.

Wesley Parish

>
> ivak

-- 
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From Pat.Villani at hp.com  Mon Oct 20 23:35:40 2003
From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:35:40 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...
Message-ID: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>

Folks,

I recently copied down the 32V source, and compiled the kernel with gcc.  Much 
to my surprise, most of it compiled.  I then split out the machine dependent 
versus the machine independent files (loose classification :-), and compiled 
again.  Naturally, in both cases, you could not actually build a kernel because 
there are vax specific .s files, but the individual C files compiled.  Not a bad 
start.

As a result, I've been giving serious consideration to porting it to Intel IA32 
platforms.  It's much simpler than the unix I worked on until last year (Tru64, 
aka OSF/1 and Digital UNIX), and the 32V kernel is only a little bigger than the 
original FreeDOS kernel I wrote.  The Caldera license is pretty much a BSD 
license, which could be considered an open source license.  This means I should 
be able to work on it without worrying about IP, although I'd still need 
management approval.

Should I undertake such an project, would there be enough interest to justify 
the effort?

Pat

-- 
You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do. -- Henry Ford


From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Tue Oct 21 02:02:06 2003
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:02:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX/32V
Message-ID: <200310201602.h9KG26L12551@opihi.ucsd.edu>

> Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:35:32 +1300
> From: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] UNIX/32V
> To: tuhs at tuhs.org
> 
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:20, Norman Wilson wrote:
> > Wesley Parish:
> >
> >   I was wondering as well, are there any VAX assembler manuals online, in
> > an easily-copyable form?
> >
> >   I've encountered html ones, but that isn't quite what I mean.
> >
> > What do you mean, then?  In what way isn't HTML suitable?
> > I don't mean to be obstreperous; I just think it would be
> > easier to help if you made it clearer what you need and
> > what you don't.
> 
> I'm a bit more used to using PDF for that purpose, since PDF data
> resides in a single file - ergo, easier downloads.

Download all the html.  (use wget)
Make a list of the files in the order that they should appear in
the PDF file.

Use htmldoc < www.easysw.com/htmldoc/ > to make PDF or PostScript.

Htmldoc is interesting software -- it works well and is available in
source form with the caveat "here it is, take it and don't bother us
unless you want to buy a support contract".

    carl

From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Tue Oct 21 10:50:55 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 13:50:55 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...
In-Reply-To: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
Message-ID: <200310211350.55658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

I tried the same with a few of the utilities and a make with the kernel files.

<shock and awe>Dependencies again</shock and awe> - with most of the utilities 
the compile was easy, since their dependencies were easily filled by the 
standard Linux C libraries.  Since many of the kernel dependencies depend on 
the vax specific .s files and I don't know anything about the vax at the 
moment, I decided to leave it until I _did_ know.  That's why I've been 
asking stoopid questions on this list.

Well, if you're keen on it, I am too.  I need something to do over the 
holidays.

Wesley Parish

On Tue, 21 Oct 2003 02:35, Pat Villani wrote:
> Folks,
>
> I recently copied down the 32V source, and compiled the kernel with gcc. 
> Much to my surprise, most of it compiled.  I then split out the machine
> dependent versus the machine independent files (loose classification :-),
> and compiled again.  Naturally, in both cases, you could not actually build
> a kernel because there are vax specific .s files, but the individual C
> files compiled.  Not a bad start.
>
> As a result, I've been giving serious consideration to porting it to Intel
> IA32 platforms.  It's much simpler than the unix I worked on until last
> year (Tru64, aka OSF/1 and Digital UNIX), and the 32V kernel is only a
> little bigger than the original FreeDOS kernel I wrote.  The Caldera
> license is pretty much a BSD license, which could be considered an open
> source license.  This means I should be able to work on it without worrying
> about IP, although I'd still need management approval.
>
> Should I undertake such an project, would there be enough interest to
> justify the effort?
>
> Pat

-- 
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From apgarcia at gravity.phys.uwm.edu  Tue Oct 21 13:51:26 2003
From: apgarcia at gravity.phys.uwm.edu (Phil Garcia)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:51:26 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...
In-Reply-To: <20031021020017.5B7961F4F@minnie.tuhs.org>;
	from tuhs-request@minnie.tuhs.org on Tue, Oct 21, 2003 at 12:00:17PM +1000
References: <20031021020017.5B7961F4F@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20031020225126.A4526@oppie.phys.uwm.edu>

> <snip>
> I've been giving serious consideration to porting it to
> Intel IA32 platforms.  It's much simpler than the unix I worked on
> until last year (Tru64, aka OSF/1 and Digital UNIX), and the 32V
> kernel is only a little bigger than the original FreeDOS kernel I
> wrote.  The Caldera license is pretty much a BSD license, which
> could be considered an open source license.  This means I should be
> able to work on it without worrying about IP, although I'd still
> need management approval.  Should I undertake such an project, would
> there be enough interest to justify the effort?

I'd certainly be intrigued enough to run it.

From Pat.Villani at hp.com  Wed Oct 22 00:00:31 2003
From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 10:00:31 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...
In-Reply-To: <200310211350.55658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
	<200310211350.55658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <3F953BFF.8020700@hp.com>

Wesley Parish wrote:
> I tried the same with a few of the utilities and a make with the kernel files.

Having come to HP from DEC by way of Compaq, vax isn't that challenging 
for me.  :)

I did not try compiling the utilities.  My interests have always been at 
the kernel level.  I am encouraged by the fact that you were able to 
build the utilities.  This should make life a lot easier.

What I've done so far is split the files into vax specific and "somewhat 
vax specific" platform neutral files.  This is just a first cut, where I 
separated out things such as .s files and .c files that are vax 
dependent, such as device drivers, from files that should be platform 
neutral.

I did not go through the platform neutral files to correct for vax 
dependencies, if any.  That's my next task.

I'll tar up what I have so far and put it on a web site for folks to 
look at.

Pat




From usagi.tsukino at pinku.zzn.com  Wed Oct 22 05:45:45 2003
From: usagi.tsukino at pinku.zzn.com (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:45:45 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...
Message-ID: <28065AD6560527342A34399F144E81CB@usagi.tsukino.pinku.zzn.com>

>From: Pat Villani <Pat.Villani at hp.com>
>Sent: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:35:40 -0400
>To: tuhs at tuhs.org
>Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...

>Folks,

>I recently copied down the 32V source, and compiled the kernel with
>gcc. Much to my surprise, most of it compiled. I then split out the
>machine dependent versus the machine independent files (loose
>classification :-), and compiled again. Naturally, in both cases, you
>could not actually build a kernel because there are vax specific .s
>files, but the individual C files compiled. Not a bad start.
Whew.  Goes to show something about GCC backward compatibility.

>As a result, I've been giving serious consideration to porting it to
>Intel IA32 platforms. It's much simpler than the unix I worked on
>until last year (Tru64, aka OSF/1 and Digital UNIX), and the 32V
>kernel is only a little bigger than the original FreeDOS kernel I
>wrote. The Caldera license is pretty much a BSD license, which could
>be considered an open source license. This means I should be able to
>work on it without worrying about IP, although I'd still need 
>management approval.

It's basically the old (with advertising) BSD license, AFAICT.

>Should I undertake such an project, would there be enough interest to
>justify the effort?

I for one would be interested... :)

>Pat

-uso.

From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Wed Oct 22 18:10:39 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2003 21:10:39 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...
In-Reply-To: <3F953BFF.8020700@hp.com>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
 <200310211350.55658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> <3F953BFF.8020700@hp.com>
Message-ID: <200310222110.39658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

I'm doing an en-masse compile of the programs in the /32V/usr/src/cmd 
directory, little-by-little, bit-by-bit.

Some don't compile, some do.

I've also run the bigger utilities - in their separate directories - through 
make with Greg Lehey's little one-liner script from "Porting UNIX Software", 
pg 74:
make 2>&1 | tee -a Make.log 

and will gzip and email them to you if you like.

Wesley Parish

On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 03:00, Pat Villani wrote:
> Wesley Parish wrote:
> > I tried the same with a few of the utilities and a make with the kernel
> > files.
>
> Having come to HP from DEC by way of Compaq, vax isn't that challenging
> for me.  :)
>
> I did not try compiling the utilities.  My interests have always been at
> the kernel level.  I am encouraged by the fact that you were able to
> build the utilities.  This should make life a lot easier.
>
> What I've done so far is split the files into vax specific and "somewhat
> vax specific" platform neutral files.  This is just a first cut, where I
> separated out things such as .s files and .c files that are vax
> dependent, such as device drivers, from files that should be platform
> neutral.
>
> I did not go through the platform neutral files to correct for vax
> dependencies, if any.  That's my next task.
>
> I'll tar up what I have so far and put it on a web site for folks to
> look at.
>
> Pat

-- 
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From Pat.Villani at hp.com  Fri Oct 24 23:41:20 2003
From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:41:20 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...
In-Reply-To: <200310222110.39658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
	<200310211350.55658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> <3F953BFF.8020700@hp.com>
	<200310222110.39658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <3F992C00.7090607@hp.com>

OK.  I'm in the process of getting approval for this project.  I'll put 
what I've done so far up on a web site and send out the URL.  If you do 
send the gzip'ed commands, I'll include those as well.  No rush, as I 
won't do any of this until this weekend.

Pat

Wesley Parish wrote:
> I'm doing an en-masse compile of the programs in the /32V/usr/src/cmd 
> directory, little-by-little, bit-by-bit.
> 
> Some don't compile, some do.
> 
> I've also run the bigger utilities - in their separate directories - through 
> make with Greg Lehey's little one-liner script from "Porting UNIX Software", 
> pg 74:
> make 2>&1 | tee -a Make.log 
> 
> and will gzip and email them to you if you like.
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 03:00, Pat Villani wrote:
> 
>>Wesley Parish wrote:
>>
>>>I tried the same with a few of the utilities and a make with the kernel
>>>files.
>>
>>Having come to HP from DEC by way of Compaq, vax isn't that challenging
>>for me.  :)
>>
>>I did not try compiling the utilities.  My interests have always been at
>>the kernel level.  I am encouraged by the fact that you were able to
>>build the utilities.  This should make life a lot easier.
>>
>>What I've done so far is split the files into vax specific and "somewhat
>>vax specific" platform neutral files.  This is just a first cut, where I
>>separated out things such as .s files and .c files that are vax
>>dependent, such as device drivers, from files that should be platform
>>neutral.
>>
>>I did not go through the platform neutral files to correct for vax
>>dependencies, if any.  That's my next task.
>>
>>I'll tar up what I have so far and put it on a web site for folks to
>>look at.
>>
>>Pat
> 
> 



From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Wed Oct 29 19:01:41 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 22:01:41 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...
In-Reply-To: <3F992C00.7090607@hp.com>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
 <200310222110.39658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> <3F992C00.7090607@hp.com>
Message-ID: <200310292201.41757.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

Just a short note to say I've compiled the libF77.a library archive.

I'll try the rest of the libraries, and note which ones compile cleanly and 
which throw their hands up in horror.

Wesley Parish

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 02:41, Pat Villani wrote:
> OK.  I'm in the process of getting approval for this project.  I'll put
> what I've done so far up on a web site and send out the URL.  If you do
> send the gzip'ed commands, I'll include those as well.  No rush, as I
> won't do any of this until this weekend.
>
> Pat
>
> Wesley Parish wrote:
> > I'm doing an en-masse compile of the programs in the /32V/usr/src/cmd
> > directory, little-by-little, bit-by-bit.
> >
> > Some don't compile, some do.
> >
> > I've also run the bigger utilities - in their separate directories -
> > through make with Greg Lehey's little one-liner script from "Porting UNIX
> > Software", pg 74:
> > make 2>&1 | tee -a Make.log
> >
> > and will gzip and email them to you if you like.
> >
> > Wesley Parish
> >
> > On Wed, 22 Oct 2003 03:00, Pat Villani wrote:
> >>Wesley Parish wrote:
> >>>I tried the same with a few of the utilities and a make with the kernel
> >>>files.
> >>
> >>Having come to HP from DEC by way of Compaq, vax isn't that challenging
> >>for me.  :)
> >>
> >>I did not try compiling the utilities.  My interests have always been at
> >>the kernel level.  I am encouraged by the fact that you were able to
> >>build the utilities.  This should make life a lot easier.
> >>
> >>What I've done so far is split the files into vax specific and "somewhat
> >>vax specific" platform neutral files.  This is just a first cut, where I
> >>separated out things such as .s files and .c files that are vax
> >>dependent, such as device drivers, from files that should be platform
> >>neutral.
> >>
> >>I did not go through the platform neutral files to correct for vax
> >>dependencies, if any.  That's my next task.
> >>
> >>I'll tar up what I have so far and put it on a web site for folks to
> >>look at.
> >>
> >>Pat

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

From dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com  Thu Oct 30 14:05:09 2003
From: dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com (Dennis Ritchie)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 23:05:09 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 32V
Message-ID: <d28dde0c60fba52c954134e2f8091b98@plan9.bell-labs.com>

The London/Reiser internal memo about experiences in
porting Unix to the VAX emerged from the company
archives, and I scanned and OCRed it: it's underneath

  http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/portpapers.html

As the page cautions, the HTML is missing some stuff, but
the PS and PDF are reasonably good.  I also have the
big pre-OCR PDF image scan if anyone wants to check details.

	Dennis


From Pat.Villani at hp.com  Thu Oct 30 22:56:41 2003
From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:56:41 -0500
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <3F992C00.7090607@hp.com>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com>
	<200310222110.39658.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz> <3F992C00.7090607@hp.com>
Message-ID: <3FA10A89.7090901@hp.com>

I got corporate approval, well, as best as I could from corporate legal, 
to proceed.  The only caveats are: beware of the SCO shenanigans as 32V 
may encounter a similar wrath, and make sure I don't "compete" with HP. 
  How in the world a 15 year old operating system threatens SCO or 
competes with HP is beyond me.  At any rate, I'll start moving the email 
activity off the corporate network soon, in order to comply with open 
source participation rules.

In the meantime, I have just placed a copy of the reorganized kernel 
files in ftp://server.opensourcedepot.com/pub/32V. This is my personal 
server, so it's easy for me to put source code there, at least for now. 
  The reorganization consists mainly of separating out drivers, and a 
scratch file for a locore.asm file.  I also placed formalized license 
notices in the directory and files, so to alert everyone of the license 
terms.

It's a start ...

Pat





From kstailey at yahoo.com  Thu Oct 30 23:32:42 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 05:32:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 32V
In-Reply-To: <d28dde0c60fba52c954134e2f8091b98@plan9.bell-labs.com>
Message-ID: <20031030133242.43782.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Dennis Ritchie <dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com> wrote:
> The London/Reiser internal memo about experiences in
> porting Unix to the VAX emerged from the company
> archives, and I scanned and OCRed it: it's underneath
> 
>   http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/portpapers.html
> 
> As the page cautions, the HTML is missing some stuff, but
> the PS and PDF are reasonably good.  I also have the
> big pre-OCR PDF image scan if anyone wants to check details.
> 
> 	Dennis

Thanks Dennis!

I never heard the term "deadstart" before.  We use "cold boot" now.

Google has no instances of the exact phrase "deadstart load" which appears in
the memo you sent but "deadstart tape" is indexed.



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/

From jmbw at nather.com  Thu Oct 30 23:37:14 2003
From: jmbw at nather.com (Markus Weber)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:37:14 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 32V
In-Reply-To: <20031030133242.43782.qmail@web10010.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <PMEAIMBALAHKECEIMJFGAEMNMIAA.jmbw@nather.com>

Didn't CDC's NOS use the term "deadstart"?

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kenneth Stailey [mailto:kstailey at yahoo.com]
>
> I never heard the term "deadstart" before.  We use "cold boot" now.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 10/6/2003


From asbesto at freaknet.org  Fri Oct 31 01:38:45 2003
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 15:38:45 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] NCR Tower650, UNIX Sys. V Rel.3 on a 68020 :)
Message-ID: <20031030153845.GA8596@freaknet.org>


Hi,

in our free lab in catania we have one of these box, you can see 
it here:

http://www.freaknet.org/history/freakalbum/freak_hardware/tn/dcp02097.jpg.html

we only have this computer, and no manuals, no tapes, no floppy
disks, nothing. We made a raw "dd" backup of the whole hard disk, that
have some bad tracks :(

so, we are wondering if someone here can help us finding information
about this machine: PDF manuals, info, tape images, operating
system disks, or whatever useful for our computer museum :)))

p.s a look at  http://www.freaknet.org/history/freakalbum/freak_hardware/
to have a little, poor idea about other machines we have, including
the PDP11/34 with the broken chip problem in the RL01 controller
board :(((

p.s.2. yes, we have printed schematics of PDP11/34. we are organizing
to scan all the schemes, maybe this can be useful for someone.

Sorry if i'm not so present in this list, but i read it every
day, it's a fantastic list. thanks to all :)


--
[asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on  keyservers]
[ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ]
[http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto IW9HGS http://kyuzz.org/radiocybernet]
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From presotto at closedmind.org  Thu Oct 30 22:57:26 2003
From: presotto at closedmind.org (David Presotto)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 07:57:26 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...
Message-ID: <8af1ca6eda679c287e0e59a1ee9f03f5@plan9.bell-labs.com>

Arnold forwraded this to me:

> Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 09:35:40 -0400
> From: Pat Villani <Pat.Villani at hp.com>
> To: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...
>
> Folks,
>
> I recently copied down the 32V source, and compiled the kernel with gcc.  Much 
> to my surprise, most of it compiled.  I then split out the machine dependent 
> versus the machine independent files (loose classification :-), and compiled 
> again.  Naturally, in both cases, you could not actually build a kernel because 
> there are vax specific .s files, but the individual C files compiled.  Not a bad 
> start.
>
> As a result, I've been giving serious consideration to porting it to Intel IA32 
> platforms.  It's much simpler than the unix I worked on until last year (Tru64, 
> aka OSF/1 and Digital UNIX), and the 32V kernel is only a little bigger than the 
> original FreeDOS kernel I wrote.  The Caldera license is pretty much a BSD 
> license, which could be considered an open source license.  This means I should 
> be able to work on it without worrying about IP, although I'd still need 
> management approval.
>
> Should I undertake such an project, would there be enough interest to justify 
> the effort?
>
> Pat
>
> -- 
> You can't build a reputation on what you are going to do. -- Henry Ford

He noted the following and asked if I'ld like it posted to this list:

	I see from subsequent mail that a project has been started.

	The members of this list seem to share some common characteristics:

	1. Some spare time for working with code.

	2. A willingness to hack on code.

	3. A desire to work with cleaner, smaller simpler versions of Unix,
	   instead of the modern, er, *full featured* open source systems
 	  (Linux, *BSD).

	I'd like to suggest that perhaps members of this list should check out
	Plan 9 From Bell Labs (http://plan9.bell-labs.com).  The Plan 9 developers
	have recently posted a request for help, for people to tackle some projects
	that need tackling.  Why should people here look at it?

	1. It's from Bell Labs: quality design and concepts guaranteed. (:-)

	2. It's an opportunity to move into the future, instead of hiding out
	   in the past.

	3. Plan 9 deserves good help.

	4. People who appreciate early Unix and current Plan 9 will be welcomed
	   warmly.

	So, check it out,

We sure would like more people using our system and our license is OSI
approved so it least has one stamp as open source.  It clearly is not as
simple 32V or our 10th edition unix.  However, it comes close and is way
simpler than either Linux or the current BSDs.

From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Oct 31 02:44:52 2003
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 17:44:52 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] NCR Tower650, UNIX Sys. V Rel.3 on a 68020 :)
In-Reply-To: <20031030153845.GA8596@freaknet.org>;
	from asbesto@freaknet.org on Thu, Oct 30, 2003 at 16:38:45 %z
References: <20031030153845.GA8596@freaknet.org>
Message-ID: <20031030164452.GA2865021@MrPomeroy2>

On 2003.10.30 16:38 asbesto wrote:

> so, we are wondering if someone here can help us finding information
> about this machine:
Maybe you should also ask on the classiccmp mailing list. 
See http://www.classiccmp.org/

> p.s.2. yes, we have printed schematics of PDP11/34. we are organizing
> to scan all the schemes, maybe this can be useful for someone.
A lot of PDP-11/34 stuff is already available on the net, maybe you
should check this first and only scan what is not already available. I
think I saw a lot of PDP-11 docs on 
http://www.mainecoon.com/classiccmp/
And you can always use the search machine at manx:
http://www.vt100.net/manx/
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Fri Oct 31 10:10:33 2003
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:10:33 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Deadstart (was Re: 32V)
Message-ID: <200310310010.h9V0AXJY024226@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>


Markus Weber wrote:-

> Didn't CDC's NOS use the term "deadstart"?

Yes, and some of their machines has 'deadstart panels'. A set of 12 x 12
switches that were the bootstrap for peripherial processor zero (12 bit
data/instruction). I think the CDC6600 had 12X12, but some of the latter
machines (Cybers) had up to 20x12

From dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com  Fri Oct 31 17:01:40 2003
From: dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com (Dennis Ritchie)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 02:01:40 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re: 32V
Message-ID: <8cf27d045015b7ac2909e58024d13432@plan9.bell-labs.com>

The HTML rendition of the paper is much improved now, thanks
to Naoki Hamada.

Incidentally, I also associate the term "deadstart"
with CDC/Cray.  Maybe London or Reiser had
previous association with that world.

On the other hand, in really early Unix, the
"cold boot" paper tape recreated everything
on the disk.  Really cold, just like the "operating
system conversion" section of L&R, or for that
matter the corresponding section of the one
by me and Johnson about the Interdata work.

	Dennis


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Fri Oct 31 20:13:03 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 23:13:03 +1300
Subject: 32V update (was Re: [TUHS] While on the subject of 32V ...)
In-Reply-To: <3FA10A89.7090901@hp.com>
References: <3F93E4AC.9050403@hp.com> <3F992C00.7090607@hp.com>
 <3FA10A89.7090901@hp.com>
Message-ID: <200310312313.03329.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

It's downloaded.

I would suggest renaming it to something like 32V-x86, though - makes it 
easier to remember it's not going to be precisely the same as 32V for VAX.

In relation to corporate caveats, the only way you could actually compete with 
HP is if somehow, in a matter of months, you redid the entire development of 
BSD and SVRx, up to the stage HP-UX currently is at.

Oh well, time for me to brush off my Pajari book on Unix device drivers and 
see if I can make the grade! ;)

Wesley Parish


On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 01:56, Pat Villani wrote:
> I got corporate approval, well, as best as I could from corporate legal,
> to proceed.  The only caveats are: beware of the SCO shenanigans as 32V
> may encounter a similar wrath, and make sure I don't "compete" with HP.
>   How in the world a 15 year old operating system threatens SCO or
> competes with HP is beyond me.  At any rate, I'll start moving the email
> activity off the corporate network soon, in order to comply with open
> source participation rules.
>
> In the meantime, I have just placed a copy of the reorganized kernel
> files in ftp://server.opensourcedepot.com/pub/32V. This is my personal
> server, so it's easy for me to put source code there, at least for now.
>   The reorganization consists mainly of separating out drivers, and a
> scratch file for a locore.asm file.  I also placed formalized license
> notices in the directory and files, so to alert everyone of the license
> terms.
>
> It's a start ...
>
> Pat
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
Clinesterton Beademung - in all of love.
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

