From billc_2 at charter.net  Tue Apr  6 20:30:01 2004
From: billc_2 at charter.net (Bill Cunningham)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 06:30:01 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
Message-ID: <000901c41bc2$1ffb8840$f3529e18@a>

    I was looking through the old archives at the old UNIX Dennis Ritchie
submitted. I would like to know how to boot this. I can't seem to compile
the PDP emulator(s) with djgpp or a non-linux system. I can with my linux.
Dennis said this version of unix was compiled with assembly, then into C if
I'm not mistaken. Now the PDPs they were the machines with no monitors just
printer tty type output correct?

    Bill


From kstailey at yahoo.com  Tue Apr  6 23:16:03 2004
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 06:16:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <000901c41bc2$1ffb8840$f3529e18@a>
Message-ID: <20040406131603.85174.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com>


--- Bill Cunningham <billc_2 at charter.net> wrote:
>     I was looking through the old archives at the old UNIX Dennis Ritchie
> submitted. I would like to know how to boot this. I can't seem to compile
> the PDP emulator(s) with djgpp or a non-linux system.

Look on this page for the link that says "Windows executables"

http://simh.trailing-edge.com/

> I can with my linux.
> Dennis said this version of unix was compiled with assembly, then into C if
> I'm not mistaken.

You are mistaken.  It's the other way around.  Traditional C compilers generate
assembly which is assembled into machine code object files which are linked
into an executable.

> Now the PDPs they were the machines with no monitors just
> printer tty type output correct?

Depends on the PDP you are talking about.  The term "Programmed Data Processor"
refers to a large number of different systems.  Some are a small as PeeCees and
others filled entire rooms.

>     Bill



__________________________________
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From akito_fujita at mvg.biglobe.ne.jp  Tue Apr  6 23:44:17 2004
From: akito_fujita at mvg.biglobe.ne.jp (Akito Fujita)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:44:17 +0900 (JST)
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <000901c41bc2$1ffb8840$f3529e18@a>
References: <000901c41bc2$1ffb8840$f3529e18@a>
Message-ID: <20040406.224417.74737577.akito_fujita@mvg.biglobe.ne.jp>

From: "Bill Cunningham" <billc_2 at charter.net>
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 06:30:01 -0400

>     I was looking through the old archives at the old UNIX Dennis Ritchie
> submitted. I would like to know how to boot this. I can't seem to compile
> the PDP emulator(s) with djgpp or a non-linux system. I can with my linux.
> Dennis said this version of unix was compiled with assembly, then into C if
> I'm not mistaken. Now the PDPs they were the machines with no monitors just
> printer tty type output correct?
> 
>     Bill

see http://www.tribug.org/pub/tuhs/PDP-11/Bug_Fixes/V6enb/
it will help you.


- Akito

From james at peacemax.org  Wed Apr  7 03:41:04 2004
From: james at peacemax.org (J.D.)
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2004 11:41:04 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] what is the progress on porting 32V to x86 platform
Message-ID: <4072EBB0.7090903@peacemax.org>

To all concerned,

    I was wondering what progress has been made in porting 32V to the 
x86 platform.

    I would like to keep track of it's development. Maybe even dedicate 
a web site just for 32V/32I on x86. I'm not certain on how to setup a 
repository, but I'm willing to learn as I go.

    I have a DSL connection. 3 dedicated IP addresses (1 DNS, 1 mail 
server, 1 web server). The web server has 80Gb of storage space and is 
running Slackware Linux 9.1. I currently host my own web site: 
http://www.peacemax.org on the web server.

    I would really like to see a free / low cost UNIX or UNIX-like OS 
for the x86 platform come to fruition without the legal battles that 
Linux and BSD have had to deal with over the years.


Thank you,
James Falknor
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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Wed Apr  7 08:37:52 2004
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 15:37:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
Message-ID: <200404062237.i36MbqN03262@opihi.ucsd.edu>

> From: "Bill Cunningham" <billc_2 at charter.net>
> To: <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 06:30:01 -0400
> Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
> 
>     I was looking through the old archives at the old UNIX Dennis Ritchie
> submitted. I would like to know how to boot this. I can't seem to compile
> the PDP emulator(s) with djgpp or a non-linux system. I can with my linux.

See below for a session log showing booting 6th Ed Unix on a Linux system.

> Dennis said this version of unix was compiled with assembly, then into C if
> I'm not mistaken.

I'm pretty sure that by 6th Ed the system was mostly C, with only a
few assembly routines.

> Now the PDPs they were the machines with no monitors just
> printer tty type output correct?

High-resolution bit-mapped graphics at any reasonable price came along
a few years after 6th Ed.  Unix.  Character-cell CRT terminals that
could display 72x12 up to 80x24 characters on a screen were available
in 1975, but were pretty expensive.

Instructions for booting "uv6swre" are contained in the file "simh_swre.txt".
To make things easier for myself, I did the following:
$ cp unix0_v6_rk.dsk rk0.dsk
and so on for 1, 2, 3.
This gives me copies of the distribution disks that I can work with
without losing the originals.  Then I made a startup file "run.conf"
to contain the commands for the emulator.  Here is the result of a
very recent session:
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Script started on Tue 06 Apr 2004 03:09:12 PM
PDT helium3$ cat run.conf
set cpu u18
set cpu 256k
attach rk0 rk0.dsk
attach rk1 rk1.dsk
attach rk2 rk2.dsk
attach rk3 rk3.dsk
boot rk0

helium3$ pdp11 run.conf

PDP-11 simulator V3.1-0
Disabling XQ
@unix

login: root
# date
Sat Aug 20 12:19:47 EDT 1994
# ls -l
total 182
drwxr-xr-x  2 bin      1040 Jan  1  1970 bin
drwxr-xr-x  2 bin       352 Jan  1  1970 dev
drwxr-xr-x  2 bin       304 Aug 20 12:19 etc
drwxr-xr-x  2 bin       336 Jan  1  1970 lib
drwxr-xr-x 17 bin       272 Jan  1  1970 mnt
drwxr-xr-x  2 bin        32 Jan  1  1970 mnt2
-rw-rw-rw-  1 root    28472 Aug 20 12:01 rkunix
-rwxr-xr-x  1 bin     28636 Aug 20 11:38 rkunix.40
drwxrwxrwx  2 bin       144 Aug 20 12:14 tmp
-rwxr-xr-x  1 bin     28472 Aug 20 12:01 unix
drwxr-xr-x 13 bin       224 Aug 20 12:22 usr
drwxr-xr-x  2 bin        32 Jan  1  1970 usr2
# stty
speed 110 baud
erase = '#'; kill = '@'
even odd -nl echo -tabs cr1 
# sync;sync
# 
Simulation stopped, PC: 034316 (ADD #26,R2)
sim> bye
Goodbye
helium3$ exit

Script done on Tue 06 Apr 2004 03:10:09 PM PDT
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
Notes:  the simh command for emulating a Unibus PDP11 with 18-bit
addressing is now "set cpu u18".

In the line "@unix" the "@" is the prompt from the boot program, "unix"
is your response to it.  Root has no password.

The disks are mounted	rk1 on /usr
			rk2 on /usr/source
			rk3 on /mnt

The default character erase and line kill characters shown by stty
are not what anyone is used to these days.

    carl
-- 
    carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                 clowenst at ucsd.edu


From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Wed Apr  7 09:17:56 2004
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 16:17:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
Message-ID: <200404062317.i36NHu303434@opihi.ucsd.edu>

> Subject: RE: [TUHS] Booting v6
> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 16:04:10 -0700
> Thread-Topic: [TUHS] Booting v6
> thread-index: AcQcKECoV1Z8goZHTHydv0dtlVPxNwAANuHA
> From: "Ian King" <iking at windows.microsoft.com>
> To: "Carl Lowenstein" <cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu>, <billc_2 at charter.net>,
>    <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> 
> BTW, the Lions book - which documents 6th Ed. very comprehensively - is
> available for legal purchase.  I have both the published version and
> (from a set of docs I bought on eBay) an old 'bootleg' photocopy.  

Me too, as they say.  I did the bootleg photocopying myself.

> There was at least one card that would drive a vector display, like the
> old Tektronix storage tube devices, but most I/O was terminal based.  I
> have some old ADM3a terminals that folks often mistake for early iMacs -
> they ask me which processor they use. :-)  

The first 11/20 I used had a Tektronix 4002 Graphics terminal
with it.  This was a storage tube, vector addressable.  But it also
had a complete ASCII terminal emulator built in, with diode matrix
character generator ROMs.  Also the best keyboard I ever used,
with magnetically-operated reed switches.  The Tek terminal used
a specially modified KL11 terminal interface, which did serial
communication to the CPU at something like 100k characters/sec.
This made the hard-copy TTY-based editor really easy to use, because
it could repaint the whole screen in a fraction of a second.

    carl
-- 
    carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                 clowenst at ucsd.edu

From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Apr  7 15:31:30 2004
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: 07 Apr 2004 07:31:30 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <200404062317.i36NHu303434@opihi.ucsd.edu>
References: <200404062317.i36NHu303434@opihi.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <85isgcl5fx.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Carl Lowenstein <cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu> writes:
> > From: "Ian King" <iking at windows.microsoft.com>
> > 
> > BTW, the Lions book - which documents 6th Ed. very comprehensively - is
> > available for legal purchase.  I have both the published version and
> > (from a set of docs I bought on eBay) an old 'bootleg' photocopy.  
> Me too, as they say.  I did the bootleg photocopying myself.

Is it still good reading?

-- 
Lars Brinkhoff,         Services for Unix, Linux, GCC, HTTP
Brinkhoff Consulting    http://www.brinkhoff.se/

From rwells at impaq.co.uk  Wed Apr  7 20:53:26 2004
From: rwells at impaq.co.uk (Wells, Richard)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:53:26 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
Message-ID: <63D9641DAC5E4642BA63322DE7B7137B2E0066@andromeda.uk.impaq.corp>

IMHO it's very good reading / learning.

I couldn't buy the book when I last tried (about a year ago) - I think
it was out of print.. I did manage to find it all on the web though.

Richard Wells


-----Original Message-----
From: Lars Brinkhoff [mailto:lars at nocrew.org] 
Sent: 07 April 2004 06:32
To: Carl Lowenstein
Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Booting v6

Carl Lowenstein <cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu> writes:
> > From: "Ian King" <iking at windows.microsoft.com>
> > 
> > BTW, the Lions book - which documents 6th Ed. very comprehensively -
is
> > available for legal purchase.  I have both the published version and
> > (from a set of docs I bought on eBay) an old 'bootleg' photocopy.  
> Me too, as they say.  I did the bootleg photocopying myself.

Is it still good reading?

-- 
Lars Brinkhoff,         Services for Unix, Linux, GCC, HTTP
Brinkhoff Consulting    http://www.brinkhoff.se/
_______________________________________________
TUHS mailing list
TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

______________________________________________________________________
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______________________________________________________________________

From luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu  Thu Apr  8 02:04:01 2004
From: luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu (Andru Luvisi)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 09:04:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <85isgcl5fx.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404070843180.26120-100000@gladen>

On 7 Apr 2004, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
[snip]
> Is it still good reading?
[snip]

Absolutely fabulous reading!

The best part, in my opinion, is that when he is walking you through the
code of a function and you come to another function call, he gives you a
short description (sometimes just a couple of words, sometimes a few
sentences) of what that other function does so you can just keep on
reading the one you're in.

Since most time-space tradeoffs were made in favor of saving space and
spending time (64k limit for all kernel code and data on the 11/40), the
code is fairly straight forward (for example, linear searches instead of
hash tables) once you grok the magic of process switching and how system
calls work, which Lions helps with a lot.

He also gives a brief introduction to enough PDP-11 assembly and
architecture, and C, to understand the magic.  I found it to be a very
pleasant read a few years ago and I plan to read it again one of these
days.

Andru
-- 
Andru Luvisi

Quote Of The Moment:
  Heisenberg may have been here.


From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Thu Apr  8 04:22:54 2004
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:22:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
Message-ID: <200404071822.i37IMsW04765@opihi.ucsd.edu>

> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:53:26 +0100
> Thread-Topic: [TUHS] Booting v6
> Thread-Index: AcQcYq8V+wOYWKxXRAqhjHttR6C44gAJhvuw
> From: "Wells, Richard" <rwells at impaq.co.uk>
> To: "Lars Brinkhoff" <lars at nocrew.org>
> 
> IMHO it's very good reading / learning.
> 
> I couldn't buy the book when I last tried (about a year ago) - I think
> it was out of print.. I did manage to find it all on the web though.
> 
> Richard Wells
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lars Brinkhoff [mailto:lars at nocrew.org] 
> Sent: 07 April 2004 06:32
> To: Carl Lowenstein
> Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Booting v6
> 
> Carl Lowenstein <cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu> writes:
> > > From: "Ian King" <iking at windows.microsoft.com>
> > > 
> > > BTW, the Lions book - which documents 6th Ed. very comprehensively -
> is
> > > available for legal purchase.  I have both the published version and
> > > (from a set of docs I bought on eBay) an old 'bootleg' photocopy.  
> > Me too, as they say.  I did the bootleg photocopying myself.
> 
> Is it still good reading?

It was last time I looked.  Today I seem to have misplaced my copy.
Just checked AddAll book search, the reprint of the Lions book has
become a rare collectable, and is selling for about $100.  Oh, well,
somebody bid a VT100 up to $355 yesterday.

    carl

From luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu  Thu Apr  8 04:55:06 2004
From: luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu (Andru Luvisi)
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2004 11:55:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <200404071822.i37IMsW04765@opihi.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404071153290.26120-100000@gladen>

Some people mentioned it being out of print.  I was wondering, has anyone
tried purchasing it from

    http://www.peer-to-peer.com/catalog/opsrc/lions.html

They don't seem to have any indication on the web site that it is out of
print, and they have a link to it from their home page
(http://www.peer-to-peer.com/).

Andru
-- 
Andru Luvisi

Quote Of The Moment:
  "Taking the envelope and pencil in his otherwise empty hands, the
  medium feels it, stares into space, grunts, foams at the mouth, and
  otherwise becomes very psychic."
  	- Theodore Annemann


From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Apr  8 04:42:39 2004
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 12:42:39 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404071153290.26120-100000@gladen>
References: <200404071822.i37IMsW04765@opihi.ucsd.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.44.0404071153290.26120-100000@gladen>
Message-ID: <20040407.124239.32175798.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404071153290.26120-100000 at gladen>
            Andru Luvisi <luvisi at andru.sonoma.edu> writes:
: Some people mentioned it being out of print.  I was wondering, has anyone
: tried purchasing it from
: 
:     http://www.peer-to-peer.com/catalog/opsrc/lions.html
: 
: They don't seem to have any indication on the web site that it is out of
: print, and they have a link to it from their home page
: (http://www.peer-to-peer.com/).

it was out of print for a while, but was republished a few years
ago...  I have both copies and can tell you that the republished
version is true to the original.

Warner

From patv at monmouth.com  Thu Apr  8 10:13:16 2004
From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2004 20:13:16 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] what is the progress on porting 32V to x86 platform
In-Reply-To: <4072EBB0.7090903@peacemax.org>
References: <4072EBB0.7090903@peacemax.org>
Message-ID: <4074991C.6080803@monmouth.com>

Actually, not much since December.  Unfortunately, work is getting in 
the way of having fun.  I hope to be getting back to it again some time 
soon.

Pat


J.D. wrote:

> To all concerned,
>
>    I was wondering what progress has been made in porting 32V to the 
> x86 platform.
>
>    I would like to keep track of it's development. Maybe even dedicate 
> a web site just for 32V/32I on x86. I'm not certain on how to setup a 
> repository, but I'm willing to learn as I go.
>
>    I have a DSL connection. 3 dedicated IP addresses (1 DNS, 1 mail 
> server, 1 web server). The web server has 80Gb of storage space and is 
> running Slackware Linux 9.1. I currently host my own web site: 
> http://www.peacemax.org on the web server.
>
>    I would really like to see a free / low cost UNIX or UNIX-like OS 
> for the x86 platform come to fruition without the legal battles that 
> Linux and BSD have had to deal with over the years.
>
>
> Thank you,
> James Falknor
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>TUHS mailing list
>TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>  
>


From ewayte at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu  Tue Apr 13 00:46:51 2004
From: ewayte at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Eric Wayte)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 10:46:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404071153290.26120-100000@gladen>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0404071153290.26120-100000@gladen>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404121045170.21192@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>

I tried a few months ago and it is no longer available from them.  They
suggested I try used book web pages.  There is a copy available on
half.com as of this writing for around $100.

Eric Wayte
Sr. DBA
Univ. of Central Florida
ewayte at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu


On Wed, 7 Apr 2004, Andru Luvisi wrote:

>
> Some people mentioned it being out of print.  I was wondering, has anyone
> tried purchasing it from
>
>     http://www.peer-to-peer.com/catalog/opsrc/lions.html
>

From kstailey at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 13 04:38:43 2004
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 11:38:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
Message-ID: <20040412183843.89075.qmail@web60501.mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/1999/11/30/lions/

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Tue Apr 13 04:51:11 2004
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:51:11 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
In-Reply-To: <20040412183843.89075.qmail@web60501.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c420bf$205e2660$6401a8c0@who5>

Hello from Gregg C Levine
An interesting discourse on the subject of the gentleman's books. I
haven't found them, as yet. However, I did find one discrepancy in the
article. I suppose Dennis Ritchie will comment eventually, but, here
goes, his name, and Brian Kernighan are mentioned on my copy of the
book on the C programming language. The only time I've seen the other
fellow's name mentioned was in regards to another book on UNIX.
Outside of that, it's a very well written article.

I'll probably end up searching Alibris, www.alibris.com for the books,
or related ones.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Kenneth Stailey
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 2:39 PM
> To: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
> 
> http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/1999/11/30/lions/
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From michael_davidson at pacbell.net  Tue Apr 13 08:29:36 2004
From: michael_davidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 15:29:36 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
References: <000d01c420bf$205e2660$6401a8c0@who5>
Message-ID: <001601c420dd$a343b040$ea8ca140@pacbell.net>

> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> An interesting discourse on the subject of the gentleman's books. I
> haven't found them, as yet. However, I did find one discrepancy in the
> article. I suppose Dennis Ritchie will comment eventually, but, here
> goes, his name, and Brian Kernighan are mentioned on my copy of the
> book on the C programming language. The only time I've seen the other
> fellow's name mentioned was in regards to another book on UNIX.

I'm not sure what discrepancy you are referring to - the article looked
quite accurate to me.

Which particular "other fellow" are you thinking of?




From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Tue Apr 13 09:40:31 2004
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:40:31 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
In-Reply-To: <001601c420dd$a343b040$ea8ca140@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <002e01c420e7$8b84ffe0$6401a8c0@who5>

Hello from Gregg C Levine
Um this fellow, Ken Thompson. According to my copy of the book on the
C programming language, only Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie, are
mentioned. Ken Thompson, is only mentioned as being a partner in the
creation of UNIX, I think he was a co-author in the book mentioned in
titles pages, describing the UNIX programming environment. 

And yes, the rest of the article did look okay, around that. 
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Davidson
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 6:30 PM
> To: Gregg C Levine; 'Kenneth Stailey'; tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on
Salon.com
> 
> > Hello from Gregg C Levine
> > An interesting discourse on the subject of the gentleman's books.
I
> > haven't found them, as yet. However, I did find one discrepancy in
the
> > article. I suppose Dennis Ritchie will comment eventually, but,
here
> > goes, his name, and Brian Kernighan are mentioned on my copy of
the
> > book on the C programming language. The only time I've seen the
other
> > fellow's name mentioned was in regards to another book on UNIX.
> 
> I'm not sure what discrepancy you are referring to - the article
looked
> quite accurate to me.
> 
> Which particular "other fellow" are you thinking of?
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Tue Apr 13 10:01:26 2004
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 20:01:26 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
Message-ID: <20040413000202.5CCA71F4F@minnie.tuhs.org>

  Hello from Gregg C Levine
  Um this fellow, Ken Thompson. According to my copy of the book on the
  C programming language, only Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie, are
  mentioned. Ken Thompson, is only mentioned as being a partner in the
  creation of UNIX, I think he was a co-author in the book mentioned in
  titles pages, describing the UNIX programming environment.

Ken's name is on a number of interesting papers from the early days of
UNIX, including the original one in CACM, but so far as I can remember
he was never the official author or co-author of a UNIX book.  You may
be thinking of `The UNIX Programming Environment,' by Kernighan and Pike.

I suppose those who don't know both Ken Thompson and Rob Pike might
confuse them, especially since (I think) they both reside in the Bay
Area now.  It may help to know that Rob's nose comes nearer to a
sharp point, and that Ken is a licensed pilot.  They are certainly
different people; I have seen them in the same room many times.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Tue Apr 13 10:19:56 2004
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 20:19:56 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
In-Reply-To: <20040413000202.5CCA71F4F@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <003e01c420ed$0d178640$6401a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
I believe your right. And I am willing to concede the points regarding
the two gentlemen in question. However, all of the documents I have
seen within the past ten years regarding the birth, and history of
UNIX, all have mentioned both Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie are
mentioned. Complete with the appropriately selected story as well.

I suspect however, that in that early paper, Ken Thompson is indeed
mentioned, however the web page in question does not go into enough
detail, as it should.   

And regarding the book, your right. I've got my copy of the C book
across the room, and normally don't refer to it unless necessary.

However, I would really like to have Dennis comment. Not that I doubt
you, I don't.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Norman Wilson
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 8:01 PM
> To: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: RE: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on
Salon.com
> 
>   Hello from Gregg C Levine
>   Um this fellow, Ken Thompson. According to my copy of the book on
the
>   C programming language, only Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie,
are
>   mentioned. Ken Thompson, is only mentioned as being a partner in
the
>   creation of UNIX, I think he was a co-author in the book mentioned
in
>   titles pages, describing the UNIX programming environment.
> 
> Ken's name is on a number of interesting papers from the early days
of
> UNIX, including the original one in CACM, but so far as I can
remember
> he was never the official author or co-author of a UNIX book.  You
may
> be thinking of `The UNIX Programming Environment,' by Kernighan and
Pike.
> 
> I suppose those who don't know both Ken Thompson and Rob Pike might
> confuse them, especially since (I think) they both reside in the Bay
> Area now.  It may help to know that Rob's nose comes nearer to a
> sharp point, and that Ken is a licensed pilot.  They are certainly
> different people; I have seen them in the same room many times.
> 
> Norman Wilson
> Toronto ON
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From michael_davidson at pacbell.net  Tue Apr 13 10:58:32 2004
From: michael_davidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 17:58:32 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
References: <002e01c420e7$8b84ffe0$6401a8c0@who5>
Message-ID: <003201c420f2$710146a0$ea8ca140@pacbell.net>

> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> Um this fellow, Ken Thompson. According to my copy of the book on the
> C programming language, only Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie, are
> mentioned. Ken Thompson, is only mentioned as being a partner in the
> creation of UNIX,

Yes, I thought you might have been referring to Ken Thompson, but I wasn't
sure.

The Salon article refers to:

"Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie, the two Bell Labs employees who created
 Unix and the C programming language"

I suspect that the only real inaccuracy here is that (as both Dennis and Ken
would
be quick to point out) UNIX was the result of a collaborative effort
involving
more than just two people, but if one had to pick just two names then they
would
undoubtedly have to be Ritchie and Thompson ...

... and if Thompson isn't normally closely associated with the development
of C
it's worth remembering that without "B" there would have been no "C" ...

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/kbman.html


From james at peacemax.org  Tue Apr 13 11:36:17 2004
From: james at peacemax.org (J.D.)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 19:36:17 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] "Lions' Commentary on UNIX 6th Edition, with Source"
Message-ID: <407B4411.9030506@peacemax.org>

To all concerned,
I decided to find out if the book were still available.
Per Dan Doernberg at Peer-To-Peer Communications:

>The "Lions' book" is temporarily out of stock;  we expect to 
>have it available in approximately 2-3 months.
>
>Background--- Peer-to-Peer Communications is the original 
>publisher of "Lions' Commentary on Unix", but we sold the book 
>to Annabooks/RTC Group in 1999. RTC decided not to reprint it 
>when they ran out of stock, so we took the publishing rights 
>back and are now working to make reprint arrangements.
>
>
>Sincerely,
>
>
>Customer Service
>Peer-to-Peer Communications Inc.
>service at peer-to-peer.com



Thank you,
James Falknor


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From kwall at kurtwerks.com  Tue Apr 13 11:57:44 2004
From: kwall at kurtwerks.com (Kurt Wall)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 21:57:44 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] "Lions' Commentary on UNIX 6th Edition, with Source"
In-Reply-To: <407B4411.9030506@peacemax.org>
References: <407B4411.9030506@peacemax.org>
Message-ID: <20040413015744.GE14895@kurtwerks.com>

In a 8.0K blaze of typing glory, J.D. wrote:
> To all concerned,
> I decided to find out if the book were still available.
> Per Dan Doernberg at Peer-To-Peer Communications:
> 
> >The "Lions' book" is temporarily out of stock;  we expect to 
> >have it available in approximately 2-3 months.
> >
> >Background--- Peer-to-Peer Communications is the original 
> >publisher of "Lions' Commentary on Unix", but we sold the book 
> >to Annabooks/RTC Group in 1999. RTC decided not to reprint it 
> >when they ran out of stock, so we took the publishing rights 
> >back and are now working to make reprint arrangements.

This is the same story Peer-to-Peer gave me about two months ago
when I enquired after a copy of Lions' Commentary. I hope they
are able to arrange the reprint. FWIW, they offered to take a
pre-order, which offer I declined because they were disappointingly
vague about when the order would be filled. :-(

Regards,

Kurt
-- 
The average income of the modern teenager is about 2 a.m.

From dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com  Tue Apr 13 13:35:46 2004
From: dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com (dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:35:46 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
Message-ID: <0a92de8522af0df0ed3961392286abca@plan9.bell-labs.com>

A quick guide; but it doesn't distinguish Pike.
He's probably the slimmest and shortest, and remains 
the least bearded the last time I saw him.

   From: dmr at alice.att.com (Dennis Ritchie)
   Subject: re: UNIX
   Message-ID: <11613 at alice.att.com>
   Date: 14 Nov 90 05:53:03 GMT
   Organization: AT&T Bell Laboratories, Murray Hill NJ
   
   I read,
   
    > Looks like folks are now beginning to credit the
    > development of UNIX to Kernighan and Ritchie, but
    > I thought the principal investigators were
    > *Thompson* and Ritchie.  Did something change?
   
   The differences between Kernighan Ritchie Thompson
   are real but very subtle. We all look alike (middle
   aged with scruffy graying beards).  Note these
   distinctions:
   
   -- Kernighan is slimmest, Ritchie middlest, Thompson
      heaviest in body build
   -- Ritchie got contacts a couple of years ago and so
      is the only current non-glasses wearer
   -- Thompson wouldn't touch netnews with a pole,
      Kernighan secretly gets misc.invest and misc.taxes
      mailed to him, Ritchie reads it more than is good
      for him and occasionally contributes
   -- Ritchie is the only one who has met five people
      who have appeared on David Letterman (Penn,
      Teller, Rob Pike, Mayor Koch, and the guy who
      raised the biggest hog in Ohio)
   -- Kernighan has written ten times as much readable
      prose as has Ritchie, Ritchie ten times as much as
      Thompson.  It's tempting to say that the reverse
      proportions hold for code, but in fact Kernighan
      and Ritchie are more nearly tied and Thompson
      wipes us both out.
   
           Dennis

From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Tue Apr 13 15:36:13 2004
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 22:36:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
Message-ID: <200404130536.i3D5aDZ13936@opihi.ucsd.edu>

> From: "Gregg C Levine" <hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net>
> To: "'Kenneth Stailey'" <kstailey at yahoo.com>, <tuhs at tuhs.org>
> Subject: RE: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:51:11 -0400
> 
> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> An interesting discourse on the subject of the gentleman's books. I
> haven't found them, as yet. However, I did find one discrepancy in the
> article. I suppose Dennis Ritchie will comment eventually, but, here
> goes, his name, and Brian Kernighan are mentioned on my copy of the
> book on the C programming language. The only time I've seen the other
> fellow's name mentioned was in regards to another book on UNIX.

By "the other fellow" do you mean Ken Thompson?
If so, you are far behind in your knowledge of Unix history.

    carl
-- 
    carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                 clowenst at ucsd.edu

From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Tue Apr 13 15:44:10 2004
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 22:44:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
Message-ID: <200404130544.i3D5iA513959@opihi.ucsd.edu>

> From: "Gregg C Levine" <hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net>
> To: "'Norman Wilson'" <norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca>, <tuhs at tuhs.org>
> Subject: RE: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 20:19:56 -0400
> 
> Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
> I believe your right. And I am willing to concede the points regarding
> the two gentlemen in question. However, all of the documents I have
> seen within the past ten years regarding the birth, and history of
> UNIX, all have mentioned both Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie are
> mentioned. Complete with the appropriately selected story as well.
> 
> I suspect however, that in that early paper, Ken Thompson is indeed
> mentioned, however the web page in question does not go into enough
> detail, as it should.   
> 
> And regarding the book, your right. I've got my copy of the C book
> across the room, and normally don't refer to it unless necessary.

You know, Unix is not 100% identical to C.

Before continuing this line of discussion, you really should find a copy of
Bell System Technical Journal, July/August 1978 Vol. 57, No. 6., Part 2
where Ritchie and Thomson describe the design of Unix.

    carl
-- 
    carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                 clowenst at ucsd.edu

From grog at lemis.com  Tue Apr 13 17:20:32 2004
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 16:50:32 +0930
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
In-Reply-To: <20040413000202.5CCA71F4F@minnie.tuhs.org>
	<002e01c420e7$8b84ffe0$6401a8c0@who5>
	<001601c420dd$a343b040$ea8ca140@pacbell.net>
References: <20040413000202.5CCA71F4F@minnie.tuhs.org>
	<001601c420dd$a343b040$ea8ca140@pacbell.net>
	<002e01c420e7$8b84ffe0$6401a8c0@who5> <000d01c420bf$205e2660$6401a8c0@who5>
	<001601c420dd$a343b040$ea8ca140@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <20040413072032.GV29128@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Monday, 12 April 2004 at 15:29:36 -0700, Michael Davidson wrote:
>> Hello from Gregg C Levine
>> An interesting discourse on the subject of the gentleman's books. I
>> haven't found them, as yet. However, I did find one discrepancy in the
>> article. I suppose Dennis Ritchie will comment eventually, but, here
>> goes, his name, and Brian Kernighan are mentioned on my copy of the
>> book on the C programming language. The only time I've seen the other
>> fellow's name mentioned was in regards to another book on UNIX.
>
> I'm not sure what discrepancy you are referring to - the article looked
> quite accurate to me.
>
> Which particular "other fellow" are you thinking of?

On Monday, 12 April 2004 at 19:40:31 -0400, Gregg C Levine wrote:
> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> Um this fellow, Ken Thompson. According to my copy of the book on the
> C programming language, only Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie, are
> mentioned. Ken Thompson, is only mentioned as being a partner in the
> creation of UNIX,

Not that I'm a great believer in religion, but this comes close to
sacrilege.  I would have thought that people on this forum (you,
Gregg, certainly included) would have known that ken and dmr (to use
their login names) are so much the basis of UNIX that up to and
including the Sixth Edition the directory tree was divided into two
directories named after them:

   === root at wantadilla (/dev/ttyp1) /home/grog 24 -> cd /src/UNIX/Sixth-Edition/
   === root at wantadilla (/dev/ttyp1) /src/UNIX/Sixth-Edition 25 -> ls -l usr/sys/
   total 1
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   3016 Jul 18  1975 buf.h
   dr-xr-xr-x  2 grog  wheel    512 Jul 19  1975 conf
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    916 May 14  1975 conf.h
   dr-xr-xr-x  2 grog  wheel    512 Jul 18  1975 dmr
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    407 May 14  1975 file.h
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    949 May 14  1975 filsys.h
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    533 May 14  1975 ino.h
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   1693 Jul 18  1975 inode.h
   dr-xr-xr-x  2 grog  wheel    512 Jul 18  1975 ken
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel  58990 Jul 18  1975 lib1
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel  45578 Jul 18  1975 lib2
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   2147 May 14  1975 param.h
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   1481 Jul 18  1975 proc.h
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    274 May 14  1975 reg.h
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    900 Jul 18  1975 run
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    533 Jul 18  1975 seg.h
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   1749 May 14  1975 systm.h
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    380 May 14  1975 text.h
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   2320 May 14  1975 tty.h
   -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   2842 Jul 18  1975 user.h
   === root at wantadilla (/dev/ttyp1) /src/UNIX/Sixth-Edition 26 -> 

"The other fellow" indeed!  As dmr says, he wrote more code than he
and Kernighan put together (though in this source tree their input is
remarkably balanced).

On Monday, 12 April 2004 at 20:01:26 -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
>   Hello from Gregg C Levine
>   Um this fellow, Ken Thompson. According to my copy of the book on the
>   C programming language, only Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie, are
>   mentioned. Ken Thompson, is only mentioned as being a partner in the
>   creation of UNIX, I think he was a co-author in the book mentioned in
>   titles pages, describing the UNIX programming environment.
>
> Ken's name is on a number of interesting papers from the early days of
> UNIX, including the original one in CACM, but so far as I can remember
> he was never the official author or co-author of a UNIX book.  You may
> be thinking of `The UNIX Programming Environment,' by Kernighan and Pike.
>
> I suppose those who don't know both Ken Thompson and Rob Pike might
> confuse them, especially since (I think) they both reside in the Bay
> Area now.

I've never seen ken without a beard, though there's a photo of him
without one taken a very long time ago.  I've never seen Rob Pike with
a beard.

> They are certainly different people; I have seen them in the same
> room many times.

Ah, the marvels of time-sharing!

Greg
--
Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Tue Apr 13 18:35:23 2004
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:35:23 +1200
Subject: [TUHS] "Lions' Commentary on UNIX 6th Edition, with Source"
In-Reply-To: <407B4411.9030506@peacemax.org>
References: <407B4411.9030506@peacemax.org>
Message-ID: <200404132035.23944.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

Good to hear - though since I got my reprint back in 1997, I'm not lacking.  

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:36, J.D. wrote:
> To all concerned,
> I decided to find out if the book were still available.
>
> Per Dan Doernberg at Peer-To-Peer Communications:
> >The "Lions' book" is temporarily out of stock;  we expect to
> >have it available in approximately 2-3 months.
> >
> >Background--- Peer-to-Peer Communications is the original
> >publisher of "Lions' Commentary on Unix", but we sold the book
> >to Annabooks/RTC Group in 1999. RTC decided not to reprint it
> >when they ran out of stock, so we took the publishing rights
> >back and are now working to make reprint arrangements.
> >
> >
> >Sincerely,
> >
> >
> >Customer Service
> >Peer-to-Peer Communications Inc.
> >service at peer-to-peer.com
>
> Thank you,
> James Falknor

-- 
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.  RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."


From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Tue Apr 13 20:39:28 2004
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:39:28 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
In-Reply-To: <200404130536.i3D5aDZ13936@opihi.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <004c01c42143$99963520$6401a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
Not quite Carl. More like behind schedule. When I got started in this,
about a year earlier, or maybe more like two years earlier, the
library where I did most of my research didn't have the copy of the
Journal available that you thought of, in your next message. This one,
Bell System Technical Journal, July/August 1978 Vol. 57, No. 6., Part
2. They claimed that they could not find it. Knowing what I know now
about the way that library works, it only confirms that they were
right. However its been on my schedule to find, since then. Probably
this week, since you've brought it up.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Carl Lowenstein
> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 1:36 AM
> To: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: RE: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on
Salon.com
> 
> > From: "Gregg C Levine" <hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net>
> > To: "'Kenneth Stailey'" <kstailey at yahoo.com>, <tuhs at tuhs.org>
> > Subject: RE: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on
Salon.com
> > Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 14:51:11 -0400
> >
> > Hello from Gregg C Levine
> > An interesting discourse on the subject of the gentleman's books.
I
> > haven't found them, as yet. However, I did find one discrepancy in
the
> > article. I suppose Dennis Ritchie will comment eventually, but,
here
> > goes, his name, and Brian Kernighan are mentioned on my copy of
the
> > book on the C programming language. The only time I've seen the
other
> > fellow's name mentioned was in regards to another book on UNIX.
> 
> By "the other fellow" do you mean Ken Thompson?
> If so, you are far behind in your knowledge of Unix history.
> 
>     carl
> --
>     carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
>                                                  clowenst at ucsd.edu
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Tue Apr 13 20:41:54 2004
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:41:54 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
In-Reply-To: <20040413072032.GV29128@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c42143$f05f0120$6401a8c0@who5>

Hello (again) from Gregg C Levine
Funny you should be bringing that into the subject, Greg! Every time I
booted an image from the repository here, at TUHS, or directly from
the home SIMH site, I didn't bother to check those features. I just
managed to login, and do what prompted me to do that. The next time I
do so, which should be this week, I'll certainly look for it.

And I thought this would be a short thread.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey [mailto:grog at lemis.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 3:21 AM
> To: Michael Davidson; Gregg C Levine; Norman Wilson
> Cc: 'Kenneth Stailey'; tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on
Salon.com
> 
> On Monday, 12 April 2004 at 15:29:36 -0700, Michael Davidson wrote:
> >> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> >> An interesting discourse on the subject of the gentleman's books.
I
> >> haven't found them, as yet. However, I did find one discrepancy
in the
> >> article. I suppose Dennis Ritchie will comment eventually, but,
here
> >> goes, his name, and Brian Kernighan are mentioned on my copy of
the
> >> book on the C programming language. The only time I've seen the
other
> >> fellow's name mentioned was in regards to another book on UNIX.
> >
> > I'm not sure what discrepancy you are referring to - the article
looked
> > quite accurate to me.
> >
> > Which particular "other fellow" are you thinking of?
> 
> On Monday, 12 April 2004 at 19:40:31 -0400, Gregg C Levine wrote:
> > Hello from Gregg C Levine
> > Um this fellow, Ken Thompson. According to my copy of the book on
the
> > C programming language, only Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie,
are
> > mentioned. Ken Thompson, is only mentioned as being a partner in
the
> > creation of UNIX,
> 
> Not that I'm a great believer in religion, but this comes close to
> sacrilege.  I would have thought that people on this forum (you,
> Gregg, certainly included) would have known that ken and dmr (to use
> their login names) are so much the basis of UNIX that up to and
> including the Sixth Edition the directory tree was divided into two
> directories named after them:
> 
>    === root at wantadilla (/dev/ttyp1) /home/grog 24 -> cd
/src/UNIX/Sixth-Edition/
>    === root at wantadilla (/dev/ttyp1) /src/UNIX/Sixth-Edition 25 -> ls
-l usr/sys/
>    total 1
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   3016 Jul 18  1975 buf.h
>    dr-xr-xr-x  2 grog  wheel    512 Jul 19  1975 conf
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    916 May 14  1975 conf.h
>    dr-xr-xr-x  2 grog  wheel    512 Jul 18  1975 dmr
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    407 May 14  1975 file.h
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    949 May 14  1975 filsys.h
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    533 May 14  1975 ino.h
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   1693 Jul 18  1975 inode.h
>    dr-xr-xr-x  2 grog  wheel    512 Jul 18  1975 ken
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel  58990 Jul 18  1975 lib1
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel  45578 Jul 18  1975 lib2
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   2147 May 14  1975 param.h
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   1481 Jul 18  1975 proc.h
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    274 May 14  1975 reg.h
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    900 Jul 18  1975 run
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    533 Jul 18  1975 seg.h
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   1749 May 14  1975 systm.h
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel    380 May 14  1975 text.h
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   2320 May 14  1975 tty.h
>    -r--r--r--  1 grog  wheel   2842 Jul 18  1975 user.h
>    === root at wantadilla (/dev/ttyp1) /src/UNIX/Sixth-Edition 26 ->
> 
> "The other fellow" indeed!  As dmr says, he wrote more code than he
> and Kernighan put together (though in this source tree their input
is
> remarkably balanced).
> 
> On Monday, 12 April 2004 at 20:01:26 -0400, Norman Wilson wrote:
> >   Hello from Gregg C Levine
> >   Um this fellow, Ken Thompson. According to my copy of the book
on the
> >   C programming language, only Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie,
are
> >   mentioned. Ken Thompson, is only mentioned as being a partner in
the
> >   creation of UNIX, I think he was a co-author in the book
mentioned in
> >   titles pages, describing the UNIX programming environment.
> >
> > Ken's name is on a number of interesting papers from the early
days of
> > UNIX, including the original one in CACM, but so far as I can
remember
> > he was never the official author or co-author of a UNIX book.  You
may
> > be thinking of `The UNIX Programming Environment,' by Kernighan
and Pike.
> >
> > I suppose those who don't know both Ken Thompson and Rob Pike
might
> > confuse them, especially since (I think) they both reside in the
Bay
> > Area now.
> 
> I've never seen ken without a beard, though there's a photo of him
> without one taken a very long time ago.  I've never seen Rob Pike
with
> a beard.
> 
> > They are certainly different people; I have seen them in the same
> > room many times.
> 
> Ah, the marvels of time-sharing!
> 
> Greg
> --
> Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen.
> Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
> See complete headers for address and phone numbers.


From Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de  Tue Apr 13 21:33:06 2004
From: Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de (Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:33:06 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
In-Reply-To: <004c01c42143$99963520$6401a8c0@who5>
Message-ID: <XFMail.20040413133306.Hellwig.Geisse@mni.fh-giessen.de>

Hi Gregg,

On 13-Apr-2004 Gregg C Levine wrote:
> [..]
> Bell System Technical Journal, July/August 1978 Vol. 57, No. 6., Part
> 2. They claimed that they could not find it. Knowing what I know now
> about the way that library works, it only confirms that they were
> right. However its been on my schedule to find, since then. Probably
> this week, since you've brought it up.

you can find many of the documents cited in this issue in the
UNIX Programmer's Manual for the Seventh Edition, Volume 2B,
which is included, for example, in the package
http://telexx.mni.fh-giessen.de/PDP11-UNIX/unix-v7-3.tar.gz

Regards,
Hellwig

From tuhs at rops.org  Tue Apr 13 22:13:17 2004
From: tuhs at rops.org (Roger Willcocks)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:13:17 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
Message-ID: <006b01c42150$b449eb20$dc32a8c0@barney>

> Hello from Gregg C Levine
> Um this fellow, Ken Thompson. According to my copy of the book on the
> C programming language, only Brian Kernighan, and David Ritchie, are
> mentioned. Ken Thompson, is only mentioned as being a partner in the
> creation of UNIX, I think he was a co-author in the book mentioned in
> titles pages, describing the UNIX programming environment.

> And yes, the rest of the article did look okay, around that.

...um... see http://www.bell-labs.com/news/1999/april/28/1.html:

"Ritchie and Thompson Receive National Medal of Technology from President
Clinton"

--
Roger



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From kstailey at yahoo.com  Tue Apr 13 23:28:30 2004
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 06:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] An Interview with John Lions
Message-ID: <20040413132830.53364.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com>

The PDF when viewed in acroread is rather obnoxious to my system, it turns off
controls and the window manager frame and takes over the whole window but love
that google cache.

http://tinyurl.com/3x4ld



	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway 
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/

From list-tuhs at cosmic.com  Wed Apr 14 08:35:02 2004
From: list-tuhs at cosmic.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 18:35:02 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404121045170.21192@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
Message-ID: <lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>

ewayte at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Eric Wayte) writes:
> I tried a few months ago and it is no longer available from them.  They
> suggested I try used book web pages.  There is a copy available on
> half.com as of this writing for around $100.

Wow.

Time to start Xeroxing it again...  :)

cheers,
Mirian

From grog at lemis.com  Wed Apr 14 09:17:46 2004
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 08:47:46 +0930
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404121045170.21192@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
	<lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>
Message-ID: <20040413231746.GD79564@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 13 April 2004 at 18:35:02 -0400, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> ewayte at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Eric Wayte) writes:
>> I tried a few months ago and it is no longer available from them.  They
>> suggested I try used book web pages.  There is a copy available on
>> half.com as of this writing for around $100.
>
> Wow.
>
> Time to start Xeroxing it again...  :)

Somewhere I had a TeX source file of it that went round
alt.folklore.computers about ten years ago.  I took a brief look
yesterday but couldn't find it.  If I try harder, there's a good
chance that I will.  Would anybody be interested?

Greg
--
Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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From shoppa at trailing-edge.com  Wed Apr 14 10:06:43 2004
From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:06:43 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404121045170.21192@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
 <lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>
Message-ID: <407C8093.nailC4G1164MX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>

[Lions book]
> Wow. Time to start Xeroxing it again...  :)

Latex source to the book was posted to alt.folklore.computers circa
1994.  I'm guessing that the poster (a "Leo") typed it in by hand
given the comments that came with the readme.

Tim.

From grog at lemis.com  Wed Apr 14 10:16:25 2004
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:46:25 +0930
Subject: [TUHS] Lions book (was: Booting v6)
In-Reply-To: <407C8093.nailC4G1164MX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404121045170.21192@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
	<lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>
	<407C8093.nailC4G1164MX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <20040414001625.GH79564@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 13 April 2004 at 20:06:43 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> [Lions book]
>> Wow. Time to start Xeroxing it again...  :)
>
> Latex source to the book was posted to alt.folklore.computers circa
> 1994.  I'm guessing that the poster (a "Leo") typed it in by hand
> given the comments that came with the readme.

Yes, that's the one I got.  From memory, the subject was "Leo's notes"
and it was uuencoded or some such.  Strangely, not many people got it.

Do you still have the text?  I haven't found mine yet, but a number of
people have expressed interest.

Greg
--
Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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From macbiesz at optonline.net  Wed Apr 14 10:55:38 2004
From: macbiesz at optonline.net (Maciek Bieszczad)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 20:55:38 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Lions book (was: Booting v6)
In-Reply-To: <20040414001625.GH79564@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <000901c421bb$340106e0$04fea8c0@DELL>

You can download PostScript and PDF versions of the Lions book here:

http://morris.xsdeny.net/data/docs/unix/lionc.ps
http://morris.xsdeny.net/data/docs/unix/lionc.pdf

You can also view Google's rendition here:

http://216.239.51.104/search?q=cache:www.upl.cs.wisc.edu/~epaulson/lionc
.ps

In my opinion, the LaTeX version would still be interesting. The
previously mentioned files themselves were probably produced from that
source.


From peter.jeremy at alcatel.com.au  Wed Apr 14 11:16:26 2004
From: peter.jeremy at alcatel.com.au (Peter Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:16:26 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Lions book (was: Booting v6)
In-Reply-To: <20040414001625.GH79564@wantadilla.lemis.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404121045170.21192@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
	<lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>
	<407C8093.nailC4G1164MX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>
	<20040414001625.GH79564@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <20040414011625.GK10121@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>

On 2004-Apr-14 09:46:25 +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, 13 April 2004 at 20:06:43 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> [Lions book]
>>> Wow. Time to start Xeroxing it again...  :)
>>
>> Latex source to the book was posted to alt.folklore.computers circa
>> 1994.  I'm guessing that the poster (a "Leo") typed it in by hand
>> given the comments that came with the readme.
>
>Yes, that's the one I got.  From memory, the subject was "Leo's notes"
>and it was uuencoded or some such.  Strangely, not many people got it.

Google agrees that the subject was "Leo's notes" and it was posted in
7 uuencoded parts in mid-June 1994.  Unfortunately, Google doesn't
appear to have kept a copy of the posting (just the whinges about the
size).

I don't remember seeing it (I don't think I looked at AFC very often then)
and don't seem to have a copy.  I'd also be interested if anyone still
has a copy.

-- 
Peter Jeremy

From kwall at kurtwerks.com  Wed Apr 14 11:33:41 2004
From: kwall at kurtwerks.com (Kurt Wall)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 21:33:41 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <20040413231746.GD79564@wantadilla.lemis.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404121045170.21192@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
	<lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>
	<20040413231746.GD79564@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <20040414013341.GB17018@kurtwerks.com>

In a 1.6K blaze of typing glory, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Tuesday, 13 April 2004 at 18:35:02 -0400, Mirian Crzig Lennox wrote:
> > ewayte at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Eric Wayte) writes:
> >> I tried a few months ago and it is no longer available from them.  They
> >> suggested I try used book web pages.  There is a copy available on
> >> half.com as of this writing for around $100.
> >
> > Wow.
> >
> > Time to start Xeroxing it again...  :)
> 
> Somewhere I had a TeX source file of it that went round
> alt.folklore.computers about ten years ago.  I took a brief look
> yesterday but couldn't find it.  If I try harder, there's a good
> chance that I will.  Would anybody be interested?

Yup.

Kurt
-- 
For 20 dollars, I'll give you a good fortune next time ...

From grog at lemis.com  Wed Apr 14 13:01:13 2004
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:31:13 +0930
Subject: [TUHS] Lions book (was: Booting v6)
In-Reply-To: <20040414011625.GK10121@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404121045170.21192@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
	<lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>
	<407C8093.nailC4G1164MX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>
	<20040414001625.GH79564@wantadilla.lemis.com>
	<20040414011625.GK10121@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
Message-ID: <20040414030113.GK79564@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 14 April 2004 at 11:16:26 +1000, Peter Jeremy wrote:
> On 2004-Apr-14 09:46:25 +0930, Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 13 April 2004 at 20:06:43 -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> [Lions book]
>>>> Wow. Time to start Xeroxing it again...  :)
>>>
>>> Latex source to the book was posted to alt.folklore.computers circa
>>> 1994.  I'm guessing that the poster (a "Leo") typed it in by hand
>>> given the comments that came with the readme.
>>
>> Yes, that's the one I got.  From memory, the subject was "Leo's notes"
>> and it was uuencoded or some such.  Strangely, not many people got it.
>
> Google agrees that the subject was "Leo's notes" and it was posted in
> 7 uuencoded parts in mid-June 1994.

I didn't recall that it was that many.  Unfortunately, I didn't retain
the original articles.  Google appears to be wrong about the date,
though: my copy is dated May 19, 1994.

> I don't remember seeing it (I don't think I looked at AFC very often
> then) and don't seem to have a copy.  I'd also be interested if
> anyone still has a copy.

Yes, I've found it now and put it up in multiple formats at
http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/.  Enjoy!

Greg
--
Note: I discard all HTML mail unseen.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
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From list-tuhs at cosmic.com  Thu Apr 15 01:04:48 2004
From: list-tuhs at cosmic.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:04:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
References: <407C8093.nailC4G1164MX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <7rad1e38j3.fsf@ducky.sandstorm.net>

shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes:
> [Lions book]
>> Wow. Time to start Xeroxing it again...  :)
>
> Latex source to the book was posted to alt.folklore.computers circa
> 1994.  I'm guessing that the poster (a "Leo") typed it in by hand
> given the comments that came with the readme.

I'm amused that someone would use LaTeX to reproduce a manuscript of
dot-matrix source listings and roughly-typewritten commentary.

(No offence at all intended to Dr Lions; the genius was clearly all in
the content, not the typography.)

cheers,
Mirian

From arnold at skeeve.com  Thu Apr 15 01:46:54 2004
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 18:46:54 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
Message-ID: <200404141546.i3EFkse7006339@skeeve.com>

> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <list-tuhs at cosmic.com>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Booting v6
> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:04:48 -0400
>
> I'm amused that someone would use LaTeX to reproduce a manuscript of
> dot-matrix source listings and roughly-typewritten commentary.

I have no doubt that the commentary was produced with the V6 nroff.
It has the look of machine-formatted text about it, although it was
clearly printed on a constant-width line printer of the time.

Now, were anyone so truly perverse, they might take the latex and
convert it into nroff/troff. :-)

Arnold

From michael_davidson at pacbell.net  Thu Apr 15 02:18:11 2004
From: michael_davidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 09:18:11 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
References: <407C8093.nailC4G1164MX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>
	<7rad1e38j3.fsf@ducky.sandstorm.net>
Message-ID: <003701c4223c$1545e1e0$ea8ca140@pacbell.net>

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mirian Crzig Lennox" <list-tuhs at cosmic.com>
>
> I'm amused that someone would use LaTeX to reproduce a manuscript of
> dot-matrix source listings and roughly-typewritten commentary.
>
> (No offence at all intended to Dr Lions; the genius was clearly all in
> the content, not the typography.)
>

When you describe the notes as having been "roughly-typewritten" I think
that you may have been misled by the quality of the printer that was used.

According to the 'Acknowledgements' in Lions:

 'The co-operation of the "nroff" program must also be mentioned.
  Without it, these notes could never have been produced in this form.
  However it has yielded some of its more enigmatic secrets so reluctantly,
  that the author's gratitude is indeed mixed. Certainly "nroff" itself must
  provide a fertile field for future practitioners of the program
ducumenter's art.'


From kwall at kurtwerks.com  Thu Apr 15 02:51:15 2004
From: kwall at kurtwerks.com (Kurt Wall)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:51:15 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <200404141546.i3EFkse7006339@skeeve.com>
References: <200404141546.i3EFkse7006339@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <20040414165115.GA18257@kurtwerks.com>

In a 0.7K blaze of typing glory, Aharon Robbins wrote:
> > To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> > From: Mirian Crzig Lennox <list-tuhs at cosmic.com>
> > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Booting v6
> > Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:04:48 -0400
> >
> > I'm amused that someone would use LaTeX to reproduce a manuscript of
> > dot-matrix source listings and roughly-typewritten commentary.
> 
> I have no doubt that the commentary was produced with the V6 nroff.
> It has the look of machine-formatted text about it, although it was
> clearly printed on a constant-width line printer of the time.
> 
> Now, were anyone so truly perverse, they might take the latex and
> convert it into nroff/troff. :-)

Thus returning to the original form in which it was prepared. There's
an appealing circularity and feeling of having come full circle to
that...

Kurt
-- 
"Whatever the missing mass of the universe is, I hope it's not
cockroaches!"
		-- Mom

From list-tuhs at cosmic.com  Thu Apr 15 03:21:07 2004
From: list-tuhs at cosmic.com (Mirian Crzig Lennox)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:21:07 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
References: <003701c4223c$1545e1e0$ea8ca140@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <7r65c2327w.fsf@ducky.sandstorm.net>

michael_davidson at pacbell.net ("Michael Davidson") writes:
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mirian Crzig Lennox" <list-tuhs at cosmic.com>
>>
>> I'm amused that someone would use LaTeX to reproduce a manuscript of
>> dot-matrix source listings and roughly-typewritten commentary.
>>
>> (No offence at all intended to Dr Lions; the genius was clearly all in
>> the content, not the typography.)
>
> When you describe the notes as having been "roughly-typewritten" I think
> that you may have been misled by the quality of the printer that was used.

Not at all; "typewritten" means "written with type": fixed-width,
metal impact type on bars or wheels.  Surely I can't be the only
person on this list who remembers when hardcopy terminals were often
called "typewriters".

cheers,
Mirian

From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Thu Apr 15 03:32:46 2004
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 13:32:46 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <7r65c2327w.fsf@ducky.sandstorm.net>
Message-ID: <006f01c42246$809dd920$6401a8c0@who5>

Hello from Gregg C Levine
Actually, no your not. I do. Even though my contacts with computer
technology was rather limited, until about thirty odd years ago, and
on and off, during the eighties. For example, a shop that my father
ran, which did typesetting, used a pair of teletypes to communicate
with the host. (Host wasn't a DEC system, he was a related unit.)

And surprisingly enough, one of their customers was AT&T, they sent
over a manuscript they were having problems setting using the exact
same methods being discussed here. 

My copy of the C manual, that all of us know who wrote, says it was
done that way as well.
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org
[mailto:tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On
> Behalf Of Mirian Crzig Lennox
> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 1:21 PM
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Booting v6
> 
> michael_davidson at pacbell.net ("Michael Davidson") writes:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mirian Crzig Lennox" <list-tuhs at cosmic.com>
> >>
> >> I'm amused that someone would use LaTeX to reproduce a manuscript
of
> >> dot-matrix source listings and roughly-typewritten commentary.
> >>
> >> (No offence at all intended to Dr Lions; the genius was clearly
all in
> >> the content, not the typography.)
> >
> > When you describe the notes as having been "roughly-typewritten" I
think
> > that you may have been misled by the quality of the printer that
was used.
> 
> Not at all; "typewritten" means "written with type": fixed-width,
> metal impact type on bars or wheels.  Surely I can't be the only
> person on this list who remembers when hardcopy terminals were often
> called "typewriters".
> 
> cheers,
> Mirian
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs


From arnold at skeeve.com  Thu Apr 15 04:38:51 2004
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 21:38:51 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] Just noticed an article on John Lions on Salon.com
Message-ID: <200404141838.i3EIcpG1007508@skeeve.com>

> > Bell System Technical Journal, July/August 1978 Vol. 57, No. 6., Part 2.
>
> you can find many of the documents cited in this issue in the
> UNIX Programmer's Manual for the Seventh Edition, Volume 2B,
> which is included, for example, in the package
> http://telexx.mni.fh-giessen.de/PDP11-UNIX/unix-v7-3.tar.gz

The manual can also be gotten online, in postscript and PDF and troff
from http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan.

Arnold

From arnold at skeeve.com  Thu Apr 15 05:34:34 2004
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 22:34:34 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] plug for new book - includes V7 code
Message-ID: <200404141934.i3EJYY84008653@skeeve.com>

Greetings All.

Here is an unashamed but brief plug for my new book, "Linux Programming
by Example: The Fundamentals":

	http://www.phptr.com/title/0131429647

It is an introductory linux/unix programming book that uses both V7 code
and current GNU code to teach the basic linux/unix programming API. The
preface points at the TUHS archive site.

I doubt that anyone on this list would really learn anything from it,
but it's sorta topical because it uses V7 code.  Also, the cover design
is really cool. :-)

If this is too commercial for anyone, I apologize; I won't post anything
else about it to this list.  (If you feel the need, please flame me
off list.  Thanks.)

Thanks,

Arnold Robbins

From ewayte at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu  Thu Apr 15 05:39:46 2004
From: ewayte at pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Eric Wayte)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:39:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] An Interview with John Lions
In-Reply-To: <20040413132830.53364.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040413132830.53364.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404141539001.27505@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Kenneth Stailey wrote:

> The PDF when viewed in acroread is rather obnoxious to my system, it turns off
> controls and the window manager frame and takes over the whole window but love
> that google cache.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3x4ld
>

I simply hit 'ESC' and was returned to the Acrobat Reader when using
WinXP at work.

Eric

From peter.jeremy at alcatel.com.au  Thu Apr 15 07:43:13 2004
From: peter.jeremy at alcatel.com.au (Peter Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 07:43:13 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <20040414165115.GA18257@kurtwerks.com>
References: <200404141546.i3EFkse7006339@skeeve.com>
	<20040414165115.GA18257@kurtwerks.com>
Message-ID: <20040414214313.GY10121@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>

On 2004-Apr-14 12:51:15 -0400, Kurt Wall <kwall at kurtwerks.com> wrote:
>In a 0.7K blaze of typing glory, Aharon Robbins wrote:
>> Now, were anyone so truly perverse, they might take the latex and
>> convert it into nroff/troff. :-)
>
>Thus returning to the original form in which it was prepared. There's
>an appealing circularity and feeling of having come full circle to
>that...

Actually, I'm surprised that someone (presumably John Lions) re-wrote
the nroff into LaTeX - it would seem easier to have just used troff
for the book.

In order to get that 'original' feel, you'll need to find an
appropriate DECwriter (LA120?).  Remember to hand-write the page
numbers and draw in the lines (and maybe boxes) in chapter 23 by hand.

Whilst you could re-create the appropriate 7x9 (I think) font for a
modern printer - though that will be missing the feel of impact
dot-matrix output: random variations in density and missing dots.

Personally, I think that is over-doing it.  Text is _far_ easier to
read when it's properly typeset using a good looking font (that
includes descenders) at high resolution (>600dpi).  I believe the
visual appearance of the original notes was limited by the technology
available to John Lions in 1977, rather than a deliberate decision to
produce low quality output.

Peter

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Apr 15 07:52:52 2004
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 15:52:52 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <20040414214313.GY10121@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
References: <200404141546.i3EFkse7006339@skeeve.com>
	<20040414165115.GA18257@kurtwerks.com>
	<20040414214313.GY10121@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
Message-ID: <20040414.155252.105450133.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20040414214313.GY10121 at gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
            Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy at alcatel.com.au> writes:
: In order to get that 'original' feel, you'll need to find an
: appropriate DECwriter (LA120?).  Remember to hand-write the page
: numbers and draw in the lines (and maybe boxes) in chapter 23 by hand.

LA120 is way too late.  More like a DECwriter III...

Warner

From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu Apr 15 07:58:45 2004
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 07:58:45 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Lions' book
In-Reply-To: <407C8093.nailC4G1164MX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404121045170.21192@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
	<lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>
	<407C8093.nailC4G1164MX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>
Message-ID: <20040414215845.GA89455@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 08:06:43PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
> [Lions book]
> Latex source to the book was posted to alt.folklore.computers circa
> 1994.  I'm guessing that the poster (a "Leo") typed it in by hand
> given the comments that came with the readme.
> Tim.

I will give you all three guesses as to who Leo was. Hint: he lives
in Australia.

8-)
	Warren

P.S Back from Easter, still catching up with the list.

From milov at uwlax.edu  Thu Apr 15 08:47:26 2004
From: milov at uwlax.edu (Milo Velimirovic)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 17:47:26 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
In-Reply-To: <20040414.155252.105450133.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <200404141546.i3EFkse7006339@skeeve.com>
	<20040414165115.GA18257@kurtwerks.com>
	<20040414214313.GY10121@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
	<20040414.155252.105450133.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <B3A43E11-8E65-11D8-A1C8-000393DB3604@uwlax.edu>


On Apr 14, 2004, at 4:52 PM, M. Warner Losh wrote:

> In message: <20040414214313.GY10121 at gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
>             Peter Jeremy <peter.jeremy at alcatel.com.au> writes:
> : In order to get that 'original' feel, you'll need to find an
> : appropriate DECwriter (LA120?).  Remember to hand-write the page
> : numbers and draw in the lines (and maybe boxes) in chapter 23 by 
> hand.
>
> LA120 is way too late.  More like a DECwriter III...

I'm betting it would be like my V6 kernel listing...
printed on an LA36 DECwriterII.

>
> Warner
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>
>
--
Milo Velimirović
University of Wisconsin - La Crosse
La Crosse, Wisconsin 54601 USA
--
There's a reason Dennis Ritchie and Ken Thompson have been awarded the 
U.S. National Medal of Technology (1998) and are fellows of the 
Computer History Museum Online.
Dave Cutler hasn't and isn't.
"You are not expected to understand this."


From tuhs at cuzuco.com  Thu Apr 15 10:43:41 2004
From: tuhs at cuzuco.com (Brian S Walden)
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 20:43:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Lions book (was: Booting v6)
Message-ID: <200404150043.UAA11983@cuzuco.com>

Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:
	....
> >>> [Lions book] 
> >>>> Wow. Time to start Xeroxing it again...  :)
> >>> 
> >>> Latex source to the book was posted to alt.folklore.computers circa
> >>> 1994.  I'm guessing that the poster (a "Leo") typed it in by hand
> >>> given the comments that came with the readme.
> >>
>  
> Yes, I've found it now and put it up in multiple formats at
> http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/Lions/.  Enjoy!
>  
> Greg 

I resurrected the Lions' source code for the commentary I made some
15 years back -- line numbers at all. It had been lost for some time
and it took a bit, but I finally found it on some obsolete media.
In making it I didn't have v6 source so it was reverted from v7.

See http://v6.cuzuco.com/

-B

From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu Apr 15 15:40:45 2004
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 15:40:45 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Lions' book
In-Reply-To: <20040414231845.GC10121@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.58.0404121045170.21192@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu>
	<lj8ygzv755.fsf@gallifrey.i.cosmic.com>
	<407C8093.nailC4G1164MX@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>
	<20040414215845.GA89455@minnie.tuhs.org>
	<20040414231845.GC10121@gsmx07.alcatel.com.au>
Message-ID: <20040415054045.GA99769@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Tue, Apr 13, 2004 at 08:06:43PM -0400, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> Latex source to the Lions book was posted to alt.folklore.computers
>>> circa 1994. I'm guessing that the poster (a "Leo") typed it in by hand.

On 2004-Apr-15 07:58:45 +1000, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>>I will give you all three guesses as to who Leo was. Hint: he lives
>>in Australia.
 
On Thu, Apr 15, 2004 at 09:18:45AM +1000, Peter Jeremy wrote:
>That would rule out John since he no longer lives in Australia.

True. The person is alive and well and living on the Gold Coast in
Queensland where he works for a small private university. He is
also semi-active in the arena of Unix history. He has a beard. He
regrets never admitting to the copying of the commentary to John
Lions personally, because John would probably have commended the
act.

	Warren

From dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com  Thu Apr 15 17:26:11 2004
From: dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com (dmr at plan9.bell-labs.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 03:26:11 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Lions' book
Message-ID: <51f1b7b159b1a354abb0bb4ad1b0d0df@plan9.bell-labs.com>

Bibliographic notes: It appears that the version of
the commentary that appeared on Usenet and has
been transformed variously is just the notes.
So far as I can tell, it's an accurate rendition of them.

There were ~2 original versions of the two-volume
work (the source and the commentary).  The two
versions are--

Those produced at UNSW: the one I have are in red
(source) and orange (commentary) covers.  There
might have been more than one printing of this.
The commentary was probably done on some nice terminal
like the Diablo daisy-wheel.  The source was rendered on
a dot-matrix terminal.

The second version was done within AT&T/WECo for internal
use, and could also be ordered by licensees--perhaps it was even
included with a tape.  Salus says these were no longer available by 1978.
These have pale blue covers.  The contents
were, I believe, a photocopy of one of the UNSW renditions.

The Peer-to-Peer edition (1996) is probably a photocopy of
an AT&T version; it contains various labels that doubtless would
have been in them.  But they could have been stripped in
from tape labels or somewhere.  Perhaps Berny Goodheart
would know about this part of the production process.
The UNSW version I have has, on its title page for the source
book, a paragraph that says "This document may contain
information covered by one or more licenses...." and is noted
by Lions as issued in June, 1977.

The PtoP version of this page is in a different font, and has a splash label
in printer font "This information is proprietary and is the
property of Bell Telephone Laboratories, Inc...."
It's noted by Lions as of November 1977,  and marked
"second printing."

It would be nice to cajole PtoP into reprinting, although
the combination of the TUHS V6 sources and the various
renditions of the commentary contain most of the
information (though without the heartfelt encomia).

	Dennis


From arnold at skeeve.com  Thu Apr 15 21:11:06 2004
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Aharon Robbins)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 14:11:06 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] Booting v6
Message-ID: <200404151111.i3FBB6VL014309@skeeve.com>

> > I have no doubt that the commentary was produced with the V6 nroff.
> > It has the look of machine-formatted text about it, although it was
> > clearly printed on a constant-width line printer of the time.
> > 
> > Now, were anyone so truly perverse, they might take the latex and
> > convert it into nroff/troff. :-)
>
> Thus returning to the original form in which it was prepared. There's
> an appealing circularity and feeling of having come full circle to
> that...

Doing so would be a major Waste Of Time.  This fact, in combination with
the "appealing circularity" just mentioned makes it highly likely that
it *will* be done by a Graduate Student somewhere .... :-)

Arnold

From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Thu Apr 15 21:37:48 2004
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 07:37:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Lions' book
Message-ID: <20040415113823.733241EB2@minnie.tuhs.org>

I can cite a third edition that existed inside Bell Labs
at one point: white covers, with the latter-day AT&T Bell
Laboratories name and deathstar logo; AT&T BELL LABORATORIES
PROPRIETARY (RESTRICTED) printed across the bottom of every
page.  The title page also says Use pursuant to G.E.I. 2.2.
Instead of `this document may contain information covered by
one or more licenses,' there is a paragraph declaring that
`This document is restricted to authorized AT&T employees who
have a job-related need to know, and holders of a license for
the UNIX* Operating System, Level Six, from AT&T Technologies,
Inc., subject to the restrictions stated in such license.'

And of course the footnote credits the trademark to AT&T Bell
Laboratories.

The use of the deathstar and the modern company name suggest
these were printed post-divestiture, i.e. no earlier than 1984.

Andrew Hume came across a few copies of this edition sametime in
the late 1980s.  I think they came from a load of stuff about to
be thrown out by Judy Macor, who used to be the person who handled
license paperwork and sent out tapes.

For some reason my copy has a paper clip on the page where
`You are not expected to understand this' appears.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From tuhs at rops.org  Thu Apr 15 22:26:10 2004
From: tuhs at rops.org (Roger Willcocks)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 13:26:10 +0100
Subject: Fw: [TUHS] Re: Lions' book
Message-ID: <005401c422e4$d7ef7960$dc32a8c0@barney>

On Thursday, April 15, 2004 6:40 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> >>I will give you all three guesses as to who Leo was. Hint: he lives
> >>in Australia.
>  
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2004 at 09:18:45AM +1000, Peter Jeremy wrote:
> >That would rule out John since he no longer lives in Australia.
> 
> True. The person is alive and well and living on the Gold Coast in
> Queensland where he works for a small private university. He is
> also semi-active in the arena of Unix history. He has a beard. He
> regrets never admitting to the copying of the commentary to John
> Lions personally, because John would probably have commended the
> act.

Hmmm, try Googling for /interests "unix history" australia latex/ :-)

You wouldn't know, off-hand, whether 'Leo' actually rekeyed the content ?

--
Roger



From billc_2 at charter.net  Fri Apr 16 03:11:54 2004
From: billc_2 at charter.net (Bill Cunningham)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 13:11:54 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] v6 source
Message-ID: <001b01c4230c$c2b15dc0$209c9718@a>

    I have that source tarball for v6. It's very nice. The only trouble is
it will not compile that's for sure and I don't have enough experience with
assembly to even look at the labels and mnemonics. It's nice to look at and
think this once worked.

    Bill


From tuhs at cuzuco.com  Fri Apr 16 06:31:57 2004
From: tuhs at cuzuco.com (Brian S Walden)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 16:31:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Lions book (was: Booting v6)
Message-ID: <200404152031.QAA21414@cuzuco.com>

I <tuhs at cuzuco.com> wrote:

> I resurrected the Lions' source code for the commentary I made some
> 15 years back -- line numbers at all. It had been lost for some time
> and it took a bit, but I finally found it on some obsolete media.
> In making it I didn't have v6 source so it was reverted from v7.
> 
> See http://v6.cuzuco.com/

Sorry to bother again, but I just noticed that the PostScript versions
I uploaded were the portrait mode ones, not landscape. I have put the
right ones in now, so if you downloaded them before this message, you'll need
to get them again.  Both PDFs however were and are correct.

-B


From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Apr 16 07:46:35 2004
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 07:46:35 +1000
Subject: Fw: [TUHS] Re: Lions' book
In-Reply-To: <005401c422e4$d7ef7960$dc32a8c0@barney>
References: <005401c422e4$d7ef7960$dc32a8c0@barney>
Message-ID: <20040415214635.GA12817@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Thu, Apr 15, 2004 at 01:26:10PM +0100, Roger Willcocks wrote:
> > True. The person is alive and well and living on the Gold Coast in
> > Queensland where he works for a small private university. He is
> > also semi-active in the arena of Unix history. He has a beard. He
> > regrets never admitting to the copying of the commentary to John
> > Lions personally, because John would probably have commended the
> > act.
> 
> You wouldn't know, off-hand, whether 'Leo' actually rekeyed the content ?

No, I OCR'd it with Omnipage on a Mac, then edited the typos and added
the LaTeX markup. Slow and painful, and there was no way Omnipage was going
to cope with the dot-matrix source code.

[ Oooh, what a giveaway! ]

	Warren

From mparson at bl.org  Fri Apr 16 07:57:54 2004
From: mparson at bl.org (Mike Parson)
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 16:57:54 -0500
Subject: Fw: [TUHS] Re: Lions' book
In-Reply-To: <20040415214635.GA12817@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <005401c422e4$d7ef7960$dc32a8c0@barney>
	<20040415214635.GA12817@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20040415215754.GA22612@ultra.bl.org>

On Fri, Apr 16, 2004 at 07:46:35AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2004 at 01:26:10PM +0100, Roger Willcocks wrote:
>>> True. The person is alive and well and living on the Gold Coast in
>>> Queensland where he works for a small private university. He is
>>> also semi-active in the arena of Unix history. He has a beard. He
>>> regrets never admitting to the copying of the commentary to John
>>> Lions personally, because John would probably have commended the
>>> act.
>>
>> You wouldn't know, off-hand, whether 'Leo' actually rekeyed the
>> content ?
>
> No, I OCR'd it with Omnipage on a Mac, then edited the typos and added
> the LaTeX markup. Slow and painful, and there was no way Omnipage was
> going to cope with the dot-matrix source code.

Huh...  Omnipage's handling of dot-matrix printouts is one of the
reasons I will only use it.  Back around 94-95, I had a student come
into the lab at the university I was working at, her floppy she'd stored
her paper on was corrupt some how (don't recall exactly why) and the
only copy of her work she had was a draft-quality print off a 9 pin
dot-matrix, and pin 4 hadn't been firing.

~120 pages, scanned on the mac and run through OmniPage, very few
'typos' from the OCR.  It impressed the heck out of me.

> [ Oooh, what a giveaway! ]

I won't tell, I promise.

-- 
Michael Parson
mparson at bl.org

From macbiesz at optonline.net  Sun Apr 18 09:04:32 2004
From: macbiesz at optonline.net (Maciek Bieszczad)
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2004 19:04:32 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Lions book (was: Booting v6)
In-Reply-To: <200404152031.QAA21414@cuzuco.com>
Message-ID: <000001c424d0$5831e940$02fea8c0@DELL>

There's another program out there that generates the source code listing
format found in the Lions book:

[taken from http://cardit.et.tudelft.nl/~knop/#programs]

Cdg - a C-source Documentation Generator

Cdg produces output in a format similar to the layout used in "Source
Code and Commentary on UNIX level 6" by John Lions. This format consists
of a two-column listing of the sources where all lines are numbered, 100
lines per page. The listing is followed by an extensive cross reference
table. 


