From frank at wortner.com  Wed Oct  4 06:02:17 2000
From: frank at wortner.com (Frank Wortner)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:02:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000@panix2.panix.com>

I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD.  Just for
the fun,  I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN.  Unfortunately,  it's
not working.

My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
FreeBSD 4.1.1.  I've booted 2.11,  configured a custom networking kernel,
installed the unix and netnix images,  changed the IP addresses in
/etc/hosts to match my LAN,  run mkhosts to rebuild  /etc/hosts.dir and
/etc/hosts.pag and rebooted.

On the P11 front,  I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros --
just like the P11 README file said,  made sure that I had a tun driver
configured in my FreeBSD system,  and started P11.   Then I did an

	ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up

Running ifconfig on the host confirmed that things *seemed* to be OK:

# ifconfig tun0
tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518
        inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb
        inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000
        Opened by PID 32199

The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets,  and differ only
in the last octet.

Unfortunately,  once I boot 2.11 BSD,  I can't contact the "outside
world" from the emulator,  nor contact the emulator from the
outside.  No telnet,  no ftp,  pings just hang.

Everything looks OK from inside:

# ifconfig qe0
qe0: flags=63<UP,BROADCAST,NOTRAILERS,RUNNING>
        inet emulator-IP-address netmask ffff0000 broadcast Bcast-IP

What am I missing?

Thanks in advance,

Frank
 

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From grog at lemis.com  Wed Oct  4 09:47:22 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:17:22 +0930
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000@panix2.panix.com>; from frank@wortner.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:02:17PM -0400
References: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <20001004091722.C1760@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Tuesday,  3 October 2000 at 16:02:17 -0400, Frank Wortner wrote:
> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD.  Just for
> the fun,  I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN.  Unfortunately,  it's
> not working.

There's a bug.  It used to work, and *something* changed.  I've been
meaning to look at it, but it's currently waiting on the tuit queue.

> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
> FreeBSD 4.1.1.  I've booted 2.11,  configured a custom networking kernel,
> installed the unix and netnix images,  changed the IP addresses in
> /etc/hosts to match my LAN,  run mkhosts to rebuild  /etc/hosts.dir and
> /etc/hosts.pag and rebooted.
>
> On the P11 front,  I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros --
> just like the P11 README file said,  made sure that I had a tun driver
> configured in my FreeBSD system,  and started P11.  

I know the README says this will work, but I haven't been able to get
it to work that way.  Somewhere I have a real image; I'll see if I can
find it.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Oct  4 10:11:10 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:11:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Message-ID: <200010040011.RAA09035@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

> From: Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com>
> 
> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD.  Just for
> the fun,  I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN.  Unfortunately,  it's...
> 
> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
> FreeBSD 4.1.1.  I've booted 2.11,  configured a custom networking kernel,
> installed the unix and netnix images,  changed the IP addresses in...
> 
> 	ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up
> 
> # ifconfig tun0
> tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518
>         inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb
>         inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000
>         Opened by PID 32199
> 
> The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets,  and differ only
> in the last octet.
> 
> Unfortunately,  once I boot 2.11 BSD,  I can't contact the "outside
> world" from the emulator,  nor contact the emulator from the
> outside.  No telnet,  no ftp,  pings just hang.
> What am I missing?

	You're missing ARP.

	'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass
	thru the 'if_tun' driver.

	I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as
	FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely.

	What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with
	the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will
	want to talk to

	In /etc/netstart on the 11 side just after the 'ifconfig' lines:

	ifconfig qe0 inet netmask $netmask $hostname broadcast $broadcast up -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1
	# ifconfig sl0 inet 192.254.254.2 192.254.254.1 -arp -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1
	# slattach /dev/ttyS6 9600
	# Next line needed when running under the Begemot emulator
	arp -s 206.139.202.1 "0:0:c:3d:e9:f7" pub
	arp -s 206.139.202.51 "0:a0:24:78:9c:21" pub
 	arp -s 206.139.202.200 "0:90:27:88:64:74" pub
 	arp -s 206.139.202.201 "08:0:2b:f:5b:a6" pub
	arp -s 206.139.202.209 "0:40:5:a4:72:27" pub
	ifconfig lo0 inet localhost up -trailers	>/dev/console 2>&1

	Typically you only need the ARP info for the hosting system and
	the default gateway.   

	Oh, there's a bug in P11 that after 25 days of calendar up time the
	clock on the 11 basically stops ticking.   I've a fix I came up with
	(and submitted to the author) but it'll be a couple weeks until I
	know for sure if it's the right fix (32bit overflow in a calculation).

	Steven Schultz
	sms at to.gd-es.com

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From grog at lemis.com  Wed Oct  4 11:29:11 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:59:11 +0930
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
In-Reply-To: <200010040011.RAA09035@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:11:10PM -0700
References: <200010040011.RAA09035@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20001004105911.H7292@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Tuesday,  3 October 2000 at 17:11:10 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi --
>
>> From: Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com>
>>
>> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD.  Just for
>> the fun,  I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN.  Unfortunately,  it's...
>>
>> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
>> FreeBSD 4.1.1.  I've booted 2.11,  configured a custom networking kernel,
>> installed the unix and netnix images,  changed the IP addresses in...
>>
>> 	ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up
>>
>> # ifconfig tun0
>> tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518
>>         inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb
>>         inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000
>>         Opened by PID 32199
>>
>> The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets,  and differ only
>> in the last octet.
>>
>> Unfortunately,  once I boot 2.11 BSD,  I can't contact the "outside
>> world" from the emulator,  nor contact the emulator from the
>> outside.  No telnet,  no ftp,  pings just hang.
>> What am I missing?
>
> 	You're missing ARP.
>
> 	'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass
> 	thru the 'if_tun' driver.
>
> 	I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as
> 	FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely.
>
> 	What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with
> 	the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will
> 	want to talk to

I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running.  I did
set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route
through that interface.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Oct  4 11:59:45 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:59:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Message-ID: <200010040159.SAA09659@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> 
> I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running.  I did
> set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route
> through that interface.

	I thought you mentioned using the 'tap' driver rather than 'tun'
	at one time.   If my memory hasn't failed me that would explain
	why it worked since 'tap' passes ARP traffic.

	The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's
	side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11.

	Just after ifconfig'ing tun0 up use the hosting system's mac address:

ifconfig tun0 206.139.202.200 206.139.202.203 up
arp -s shemp 0:90:27:88:64:74 pub

	I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device.
	Without ARP on an ethernet I am not aware of any 'routing' that 
	can fill in the mac addresses in the ethernet packets.   

	Try pub'ing the arp entries and see if that works.   Might try 'tap'
	instead of 'tun' if you're looking for something else to try.

	Steven Schultz


From frank at wortner.com  Thu Oct  5 01:57:02 2000
From: frank at wortner.com (Frank Wortner)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:57:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
In-Reply-To: <200010041528.IAA19574@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010041152430.26565-100000@panix6.panix.com>

Just to let everyone know,  Stephen Schultz was right:  I needed arp table
entries as he described.`

Thanks to him and Greg Lehey for their useful replies.

Frank

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From frank at wortner.com  Thu Oct  5 04:37:09 2000
From: frank at wortner.com (Frank Wortner)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010041418140.20682-100000@panix3.panix.com>

This is just an FYI for anyone playing with the Begemot P11 emulator ...

The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz.  While this corresponds to AC line
frequency in many parts of the world,  it is not correct for the
U.S.,  where 60 Hz is the norm.  Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the
U.S.,  the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock
also.  When the software and "hardware" disagree on clock rates,  problems
happen.

My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered
the 50 Hz clock rate.  After I changed it to 60,  the emulator's time was
remarkably accurate!

If you want to change the default clock rate,  you can do so in the source
(look for the symbol "clock_rate" in "main.c"),  or you can just add

	set clock_rate 60

into your p11conf file.  This will override the default in the emulator
program.

Have fun -- I certainly am! :-)

Frank

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Oct  5 01:24:07 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Message-ID: <200010041524.IAA19559@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> No, that wasn't me.  FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver.  Do you mean
> Frank?

	Sure it does.  The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so  ;)
	Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time)
	as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site.

> > 	The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's
> > 	side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11.
> 
> I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all.  tun is a point-to-point
> interface.

	The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is
	so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated
	11 via the P11 hosting system.   If the hosting system doesn't
	publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets
	to the machine running P11.

> > 	I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device.
> 
> I don't think it can.  I think Harti used some magic there.

	I know it can't - I asked him about it :)   That's when I first 
	discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated
	11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a 
	response to its ARP request.   On the hosting side it would be 
	possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that
	and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY.

	Steven

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Oct  5 08:27:58 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate
Message-ID: <200010042227.PAA21951@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com>
> The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz.  While this corresponds to AC line
> frequency in many parts of the world,  it is not correct for the
> U.S.,  where 60 Hz is the norm.  Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the
> U.S.,  the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock

	Yes, the bootable 2.11 distribution assumes a 60Hz clock.  That is
	easily changed though for folks that live in 50Hz areas.  Edit the
	kernel config file and change LINEHZ to 50.  The rest of the system 
	has been changed to ask the kernel for the clockrate so there shouldn't
	be any compiled in assumptions outside the kernel (if I overlooked
	any let me know and I'll fix it).

> My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered
> the 50 Hz clock rate.  After I changed it to 60,  the emulator's time was
> remarkably accurate!

	Indeed it is accurate.   Earlier versions of P11 would lose time
	very rapidly if the PDP-11 was "busy" - but the latest version of
	P11 is fantastic at keeping time.  If you run 'ntpd' on the 11 the
	time stays even closer to "real".

	Steven Schultz

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Oct  5 13:03:25 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:33:25 +0930
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
In-Reply-To: <200010041524.IAA19559@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 08:24:07AM -0700
References: <200010041524.IAA19559@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20001005123324.C12234@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Wednesday,  4 October 2000 at  8:24:07 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
>> No, that wasn't me.  FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver.  Do you mean
>> Frank?
>
> 	Sure it does.  The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so  ;)
> 	Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time)
> 	as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site.

I stand corrected:

> revision 1.1
> date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10;  author: nsayer;  state: Exp;
> Add the tap driver.
> 
> The tap driver is used to present a virtual Ethernet interface to the
> system. Packets presented by the network stack to the interface are
> made available to a character device in /dev. With tap and the bridge
> code, you can make remote bridge configurations where both sides of
> the bridge are separated by userland daemons.
> 
> This driver also has a special naming hack to allow it to serve a similar
> purpose to the vmware port.
> 
> Submitted by:   myevmenkin at att.com, vsilyaev at mindspring.com

Ah well, I still haven't used it.

>>> 	The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's
>>> 	side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all.  tun is a point-to-point
>> interface.
>
> 	The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is
> 	so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated
> 	11 via the P11 hosting system.   If the hosting system doesn't
> 	publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets
> 	to the machine running P11.

I did that with a static route entry.

>>> 	I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device.
>>
>> I don't think it can.  I think Harti used some magic there.
>
> 	I know it can't - I asked him about it :)   That's when I first
> 	discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated
> 	11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a
> 	response to its ARP request.   On the hosting side it would be
> 	possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that
> 	and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY.

As I say, it's not that simple.  I used it without trouble for years.
Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file
system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it.  Since others
have the rest running, it's obviously nothing fundamental.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Fri Oct  6 02:42:05 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:42:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Message-ID: <200010051642.JAA03467@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> > revision 1.1
> > date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10;  author: nsayer;  state: Exp;
> > Add the tap driver.
> 
> Ah well, I still haven't used it.

	Neither have I ;)   I thought (for 30 seconds or less) about 
	porting it to BSD/OS - it's not that big and didn't appear to be
	overly tricky.

	Only reason I knew about 'tap' was that P11 has support for it and
	a pointer where to fetch 'tap' from.

> > 	The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is...
> 
> I did that with a static route entry.

	Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander
	around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static 
	route.   In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't 
	add a static route if I wanted to.   Having the host system 
	'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation.

> As I say, it's not that simple.  I used it without trouble for years.

	Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more
	detail.  Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I
	can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet
	if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping.

> Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file
> system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it.  Since others

	Ouch!  On the 11 side?  Or on the hosting system's side?

	Steven

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From cube1 at home.com  Fri Oct  6 12:25:17 2000
From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 21:25:17 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: UNIX Heritage Society Digest V1 #137
In-Reply-To: <200009241945.GAA72267@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005212349.06086580@cirithi>

I had to replace the RS 423 drives on my PDP-11/24 and in the connected 
VT-100 terminal after a problem on a PC clobbered the 11/24 console ports 
which in turn clobbered the VT-100 some time ago.

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com			visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection


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From grog at lemis.com  Fri Oct  6 13:35:03 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:05:03 +0930
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
In-Reply-To: <200010051642.JAA03467@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:42:05AM -0700
References: <200010051642.JAA03467@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20001006130503.A21828@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Thursday,  5 October 2000 at  9:42:05 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>>> 	The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is...
>> I did that with a static route entry.
>
> 	Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander
> 	around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static
> 	route.   In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't
> 	add a static route if I wanted to.   Having the host system
> 	'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation.
>
>> As I say, it's not that simple.  I used it without trouble for years.
>
> 	Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more
> 	detail.  Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I
> 	can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet
> 	if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping.

I don't know the details either, unfortunately.  I really need to find
some time to get the thing running again.

>> Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file
>> system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it.  Since others
>
> 	Ouch!  On the 11 side?  Or on the hosting system's side?

On the 11 side.  I'm not sure what happened, but it looks like it.
It's not a big deal, since I have backups somewhere.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From pino at dohd.org  Mon Oct  9 23:39:36 2000
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:39:36 +0200
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
Message-ID: <20001009153936.A18313@mud.stack.nl>

Ahoy!

I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering
what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC
5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive.
If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't
figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably
not.

Any hints?

Kind regards,

Martijn.

[1] My hopes have vaporized into thin air by two "not so overly bright" 
    persons. One of them decided that the TKZ-50 drive we (the local
    user group) had should be split into controllerboard and actual
    drive (and stored seperately), the other one didn't recognize
    the TKZ50 controller, couldn't figure out what it was used for, and
    threw it away... Some people deserve to be shot.
-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Tue Oct 10 08:46:18 2000
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:46:18 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1001010004455.25207B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Martijn van Buul wrote:

> Ahoy!
> 
> I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering
> what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC
> 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive.
> If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't
> figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably
> not.
> 
> Any hints?

Perhaps you should start by telling what you have running on the PDP-11
right now? Both software and hardware wise.

> [1] My hopes have vaporized into thin air by two "not so overly bright" 
>     persons. One of them decided that the TKZ-50 drive we (the local
>     user group) had should be split into controllerboard and actual
>     drive (and stored seperately), the other one didn't recognize
>     the TKZ50 controller, couldn't figure out what it was used for, and
>     threw it away... Some people deserve to be shot.

Wow. Impressive stupidity!

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Oct 10 14:36:03 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
Message-ID: <200010100436.VAA01412@moe.2bsd.com>

Greetings -

> From: Martijn van Buul <pino at dohd.org>
> I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering
> what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC

	It is an 11/53 or better (73, 83, 93)?   There were numerous "MicroPDP"
	systems made but some of them were 11/23 or 23+ and those will not
	run 2.11BSD

> 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive.
> If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't
> figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably
> not.

	What OS did you manage to get Kermit running under?   I do not believe
	Kermit itself can handle the multiple block sizes used when writing
	the files that make up the "boot tape".   Do you have any development
	facilities on the currently running system?   If so then it might be
	possible to write a program to create a tape from the files brought
	over via kermit.

> Any hints?

	First shoot the individuals mentioned in [1]? ;)

	If you've a PC with a 5.25" drive and the ability to do image copies
	to it ('dd' on a *BSD* or Linux system) that might be one way to
	get 2.11 over to the MicroPDP.    A single RX33 can easily hold the
	standalone programs (boot, disklabel, restore, mkfs, icheck) and
	it only takes 3 or 4 RX33 disks to hold a root filesystem dump.
	The bad part is that the GENERIC kernel lacks networking due to
	space contraints.   Someone would have to create a custom kernel+
	networking root filesystem and create 3 or 4 RX33 images to be dd'd
	out to floppies.    Then, once a networking based root filesystem
	was loaded it should be possible to get pull the remaining data
	over the network with a "rsh ... | tar ..." command.

	Much depends on the ability to create floppy disks from images on a PC 
	that can be read on the RX33 which the PDP-11 has.  If that works
	then the rest will be timeconsuming (and the install instructions
	will of course be heavily modified ;)) but at least possible.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From pino at dohd.org  Wed Oct 11 04:36:31 2000
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:36:31 +0200
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
In-Reply-To: <200010100436.VAA01412@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 09:36:03PM -0700
References: <200010100436.VAA01412@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20001010203631.A29606@mud.stack.nl>

*whoops*. 

I've been mailing personal replies, instead of replies to the list. Too much
relying on procmail, I suppose.

Steven M. Schultz wrote:
 
> 	It is an 11/53 or better (73, 83, 93)?   There were numerous "MicroPDP"
> 	systems made but some of them were 11/23 or 23+ and those will not
> 	run 2.11BSD

It's a 11/53+ (aka: 1.5 MB RAM), which *should* be able to run 2.11BSD.

 
> 	What OS did you manage to get Kermit running under?

Micro/RSX

>	I do not believe Kermit itself can handle the multiple block sizes used
>	when writing the files that make up the "boot tape".   Do you have any
>	development facilities on the currently running system?   If so then it
>	might be possible to write a program to create a tape from the files
>	brought over via kermit.

There is a Macro-assembler, and reportedly a PASCAL compiler. However, my
Micro/RSX skills (let alone -programming skills) should be considered 
rudimentary - the only resource I have is the on-line helpfile (which isn't
very clear every now and then).

> 	If you've a PC with a 5.25" drive and the ability to do image copies
> 	to it ('dd' on a *BSD* or Linux system) that might be one way to
> 	get 2.11 over to the MicroPDP.    A single RX33 can easily hold the
> 	standalone programs (boot, disklabel, restore, mkfs, icheck) and
> 	it only takes 3 or 4 RX33 disks to hold a root filesystem dump.

The "RX33" is working (that's how I was able to low-level format two
MFM disks, and how I got Kermit running). And yes, I have a Minix-VMD box
with a 5.25" HD drive.

For the sake of completeness, I'll include the currently available 
hardware:

KJD11-D/S   (processor), DZQ11, TK50, RQDX3 with one RD32A, a third-party
21MB MFM disk (ST225, RD33? 31? Something like that), a second 21MB
MFM disk standing by (A microscribe of some sort), a 5.25" PC floppy 
drive shoe-horned into a RX33, and a DELQA card.

(Well, that's what I have installed right now. I do have some other cards,
 including a DRV11-J "Hi-density parallell line unit" and some strange
 VG-Electronics cards (which they claim are specific to surface analysis))

And a spare TK50 mechanic..

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From wkb at freebie.demon.nl  Wed Oct 11 07:20:11 2000
From: wkb at freebie.demon.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:20:11 +0200
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313@mud.stack.nl>; from pino@dohd.org on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:39:36PM +0200
References: <20001009153936.A18313@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <20001010232011.A8918@freebie.demon.nl>

On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:39:36PM +0200, Martijn van Buul wrote:

> I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering
> what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC
> 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive.
> If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't
> figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably
> not.
> 
> Any hints?

Well... you can borrow one of my TK50s with 2.11 on it ;-)

-- 
Wilko Bulte  	 
wilko at freebsd.org 			Arnhem, the Netherlands

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From mark at cs.ualberta.ca  Wed Oct 11 00:30:24 2000
From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:30:24 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313@mud.stack.nl> from Martijn van Buul at "Oct
 9, 2000 03:39:36 pm"
Message-ID: <20001010143026Z433793-12555+100@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>

> Ahoy!
> 
> I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering
> what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC
> 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive.
> If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't
> figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably
> not.
> 
> Any hints?

If you need a TK50 with 2.11 on it I could produce one for you (provided
that you have jumped through all the license hoops).  The only sticky
point might be shipping, where are you located?  I'm travelling a lot
this month, so it may take a week or so to get it done.

-- 
Dr. Mark Green                                 mark at cs.ualberta.ca
McCalla Professor                              (780) 492-4584
Department of Computing Science                (780) 492-1071 (FAX)
University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Oct 11 10:12:18 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:12:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
Message-ID: <200010110012.RAA13052@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Martijn van Buul <pino at dohd.org>
> *whoops*. 
> 
> I've been mailing personal replies, instead of replies to the list. Too much
> relying on procmail, I suppose.

	;)

> It's a 11/53+ (aka: 1.5 MB RAM), which *should* be able to run 2.11BSD.

	Indeed it should be able to.   I personally have not done so but the
	processor/mmu meet all the criteria and 1.5MB is perfect.

> The "RX33" is working (that's how I was able to low-level format two

	I have a "RX33" on my 11/73 so I can create a boot  disk and the
	root filesystem dump (split over 3 or 4 1.2MB disk images).

> For the sake of completeness, I'll include the currently available 
> hardware:

	Ah, thanks!   That answers some other questions I was going to ask ;)

> KJD11-D/S   (processor), DZQ11, TK50, RQDX3 with one RD32A, a third-party
> 21MB MFM disk (ST225, RD33? 31? Something like that), a second 21MB
> MFM disk standing by (A microscribe of some sort), a 5.25" PC floppy 
> drive shoe-horned into a RX33, and a DELQA card.

	It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to
	fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB
	at least for /usr.   An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53
	paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at to.gd-es.com


From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Thu Oct 12 00:29:18 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:29:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <200010110012.RAA13052@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Oct 10, 2000 05:12:18 PM
Message-ID: <200010111429.KAA23987@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> 	It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to
> 	fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB
> 	at least for /usr.   An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53
> 	paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate.
> 
> 	Steven Schultz
> 	sms at to.gd-es.com

Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
(like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but
maybe something will surface).  Anyway... for the sake of discussion,
and general dumpster diving knowledge....

1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
    work on a PDP-11?

2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).

I often run across lots of smaller DEC scsi drives in MooU surplus,
as well as assorted MFM drives from retired AT crates.  IF I can
find out what is worth saving to use, that would be great info
to have handy, whilst dumpster diving.  At a buck or two a chassis,
it is worth saving a few drives, provided I know what to save.

I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.

Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?

Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?

I vaguely remember some notes on some of this somewhere.  Any urls
or pointers thereto would be appreciated.

Thanks

Bob Keys
rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Thu Oct 12 10:03:42 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:03:42 -0400
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
Message-ID: <001011200342.202026f0@trailing-edge.com>

Bob Keys wrote:

>1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>    work on a PDP-11?

Perhaps the number one most frequently asked question on this list :-).
See

 http://ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/third-party-disks.txt

for Terry Kennedy's excellent collection of DECUServe articles with lots
of juicy details about using non-DEC MFM drives and floppy drives on DEC
RQDXn controllers.

Tim.

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Thu Oct 12 12:33:35 2000
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:33:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <200010111429.KAA23987@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.1001011222653.13816A-100000@world.std.com>

> 
> 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>     work on a PDP-11?

Many, any that are similar to ST225(RD31) and ST251(RD32) or have the same
CHS as RD52 (Quantum D540), MIcropolus 1325(rd53) or Maxtor2190(rd54).
Those disks were DEC baged but not DEC made and are findable.  there are
many similar out there as well.
 
> 2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).

Yes if you have a SCSI card that is MSCP compatable.  THese are scarce
 as many are still in service or quickly picked up.

> I often run across lots of smaller DEC scsi drives in MooU surplus,
> as well as assorted MFM drives from retired AT crates.  IF I can
> find out what is worth saving to use, that would be great info
> to have handy, whilst dumpster diving.  At a buck or two a chassis,
> it is worth saving a few drives, provided I know what to save.

There is a good chance they are useable depending on the controller 
in your DEC hardware.

> I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
> to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.

Someone else will confirm but 2.11 handles MSCP so that means RQDX
controllers for MFM or many of the SCSI controlers that speak MSCP.

> Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?

See above list.


> Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?

Yes, with the right controller, some caveats.

Hopefully you will get more detailes from others.

Allison

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Oct 12 13:07:14 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:07:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
Message-ID: <200010120307.UAA26966@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi Bob -

> From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
> Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
> (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but

	Interesting.   I wouldn't have thought an 11/73 or similar would
	be too hard to find.

> 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>     work on a PDP-11?

	Tim has already jumped in with a pointer or two.

> 2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).

	Oh yes!   But you need to have a Qbus SCSI<->MSCP controller.  They
	are easy to _find_ but quite *expensive*.   Not as expensive as
	they were when I shelled out US$1500 for a new Emulex UC08 (and that
	with a good discount - the sales person was sympathetic to my
	explanation this was for a 'hobby').    Used CMD, Emulex or Dilog
	controllers will run around $500-900.

	Once you have gotten over the sticker/exchequer shock the upside
	is that you can use about many SCSI disk or tape drives that other
	folks are tossing otu because they're too small.   The older ~300MB
	and 1GB disks that are not useful on modern systems are great in
	a PDP-11 environment.    Uh, don't bother putting a 73GB Cheetah
	on an 11 ;)

	One place that lists CMD and Emulex controllers is:

		http://www.ficompinc.com

> I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
> to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.
> 
> Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?

	At one time I had a uVax-II with a Dilog DQ696 (I think that was 
	the model number) that had a couple ESDI drives on it - a ~300MB
	Miniscribe disk and a couple Maxtor RD53 sized drives.

> Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?

	Definitely.    Emulex QD33 and QD35 adaptors (in addition to the
	Dilog DQ696) ring a bell as far as non-SCSI disks go.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Fri Oct 13 04:14:20 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:14:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <200010120307.UAA26966@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Oct 11, 2000 08:07:14 PM
Message-ID: <200010121814.OAA22228@uni01du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> Hi Bob -

Hello.....

> > From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
> > Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
> > (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but
> 
> 	Interesting.   I wouldn't have thought an 11/73 or similar would
> 	be too hard to find.

Most of the PDP stuff has long since been surplussed, and I have trolled
the local newsfeeds but nothing seems to turn up.  VAXen are the usual
fare, since PDP's were not that common around here.  The RTP NC area did
not really get big into computering until the VAX era.

> > 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
> >     work on a PDP-11?
> 
> 	Tim has already jumped in with a pointer or two.
> 
> > 2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).
> 
> 	Oh yes!   But you need to have a Qbus SCSI<->MSCP controller.  They
> 	are easy to _find_ but quite *expensive*.   Not as expensive as
> 	they were when I shelled out US$1500 for a new Emulex UC08 (and that
> 	with a good discount - the sales person was sympathetic to my
> 	explanation this was for a 'hobby').    Used CMD, Emulex or Dilog
> 	controllers will run around $500-900.

I fell into a MVII yesterday that has a Dilog controller.  Is that the
one you are talking about?  If so, that could be a lucky find.

Here's a crazy, but possible thought.... can I write 211BSD drives from
a MicroVAX II and move the card/drives over to the PDP-11 and have a
reasonable expectation that they will work, or at least boot to a root
or a miniroot or such?  It is a long shot, but if I am just dd'ing
images, it might work, I would think.

One of my goals with the MVII is to use it to write 9 track tapes, IFF
I can lay hands on one of several 9 trackkers in surplus in the next
few weeks.  They were originally used on a local VAXsystem 5400 crate
and are single ended scsi Ciphers.  Could they be used on a PDP-11, too?

> 	Once you have gotten over the sticker/exchequer shock the upside
> 	is that you can use about many SCSI disk or tape drives that other
> 	folks are tossing otu because they're too small.   The older ~300MB
> 	and 1GB disks that are not useful on modern systems are great in
> 	a PDP-11 environment.    Uh, don't bother putting a 73GB Cheetah
> 	on an 11 ;)

I have plenty of the RZ55/56/57/58ish things that have popped up in
surplus that I am using on my VAXstation toyz.  All the PeeCee types
avoid them like the plague, and I truck them out by the handfull.
MooU was big on those and DS5000/200 crates.  They are now hitting
surplus quite frequently.

> 	One place that lists CMD and Emulex controllers is:
> 
> 		http://www.ficompinc.com
> 
> > I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
> > to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.
> > 
> > Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?
> 
> 	At one time I had a uVax-II with a Dilog DQ696 (I think that was 
> 	the model number) that had a couple ESDI drives on it - a ~300MB
> 	Miniscribe disk and a couple Maxtor RD53 sized drives.

I had one of those, too, a few months back, but stripped the MVI it came
out of, without thinking of hanging onto that card.  Minus two points for
me.  Someone else was lucky that day.....(:+}}...

> > Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?
> 
> 	Definitely.    Emulex QD33 and QD35 adaptors (in addition to the
> 	Dilog DQ696) ring a bell as far as non-SCSI disks go.

I have half a dozen of these early Sun drives in storage, so that is
good to know, and I did save the 650mb esdi drive from the MVI, thinking
I could use it on a Sun, but never got around to it.

> 	Steven Schultz
> 	sms at moe.2bsd.com

Thanks for the tidbits folks!

Bob

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From wkb at freebie.demon.nl  Thu Oct 12 18:11:06 2000
From: wkb at freebie.demon.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:11:06 +0200
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <200010111429.KAA23987@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>; from rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu on Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400
References: <200010110012.RAA13052@moe.2bsd.com> <200010111429.KAA23987@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <20001012101105.B18613@freebie.demon.nl>

On Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:
> > 	It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to
> > 	fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB
> > 	at least for /usr.   An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53
> > 	paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate.
> > 
> > 	Steven Schultz
> > 	sms at to.gd-es.com
> 
> Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
> (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but
> maybe something will surface).  Anyway... for the sake of discussion,
> and general dumpster diving knowledge....
> 
> 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>     work on a PDP-11?

RD53 is a Micropolis 1375 (eh, no the MFM variant of it.. 75 is SCSI.
Maybe 1325??).

RD54 is a Maxtor or Newbury data drive.
 
I can look up the details if needed. As far as MFM drives go I would not
consider anything smaller than a 53.

-- 
Wilko Bulte  	 
wilko at freebsd.org 			Arnhem, the Netherlands

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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Fri Oct 13 04:23:56 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:23:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.1001011222653.13816A-100000@world.std.com> from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Oct 11, 2000 10:33:35 PM
Message-ID: <200010121823.OAA23482@uni01du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> > 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
> >     work on a PDP-11?
> 
> Many, any that are similar to ST225(RD31) and ST251(RD32) or have the same
> CHS as RD52 (Quantum D540), MIcropolus 1325(rd53) or Maxtor2190(rd54).
> Those disks were DEC baged but not DEC made and are findable.  there are
> many similar out there as well.

Oh, stupid me... I cleaned up the junk pile a couple of months back
and not thinking threw out about 20 of these mfm critters, not thinking
they were much usable, any more.  I did save a couple of the 150mb
mfm things from the Sun3 crate, though.  They were Micropolis, if
memory is correct.  All the 20/30/40/60/80mb things I chucked.
Oh well.

On the ESDI drives, has anyone tried the IBM things from Model 60
and Model 80 machines?  They were 70/115/300mb drives, and are
quite common.  If they were usable, I have bunches of those that
have not yet been thrown out.  They are also quite numerous in
local surplus.

Bob

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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Oct 13 09:44:38 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 01:44:38 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <200010121823.OAA23482@uni01du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200010122344.BAA05071@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 12 Oct, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:

> On the ESDI drives, has anyone tried the IBM things from Model 60
> and Model 80 machines?  
I am using Micropolis 1654-7 (150MB), 1664-7 (320MB) and Maxtor XT4380
(350MB) ESDI drives from PCs and Apollo Domain DN3X00 Machines with a
Dilog DQ686 QBus MSCP controller. Last week I salvaged a XT4780 (~700MB)
but did not have the time to test it. I had no problems using this
disks. After reformating them with the controller on board diag they
worked well in my MicroVAX II. I expect no problems with it when I
convert the VAX to a PDP11/23. 
The problem with some IBM PS/2 ESDI drives is the proprietary
connector, that combinates signal and power lines in one connector.
I don't know if they are usable with a normal ESDI controller. On the
other hand: In my PS/2 80 is the same Maxtor XT4380 like the one from
Apollo I am using with the Dilog. 
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Wed Oct 18 02:39:28 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:39:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] 9 track reelers on MVII.... will an IBM differential drive work?
Message-ID: <200010171639.MAA21656@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu>

On a lark, my ol' propeller headed beanie was whirring, again, today.

Problem:  how to use old IBM differential scsi reel tape deck to make
          reel tapes for antique unix....

Discussion:  I picked up a perfectly fine looking IBM 9348-001 differential
             scsi interface tape deck from an AS400 box.  I had thought of
             using a differential to single-ended scsi converter, but, they
             are a tad dear for this olde man's beer bellie peanut computer
             budget.  Thinking there had to be some other way of making use
             of this deck to write some fine old reels, I saw, buried deep
             in the pdp-11 cards list a differential tape card by Dilogic,
             and though... hmmm, can the old MVII crank out to the 9 track
             via such a card?

Solutions:   anyone have any insights on trying something like this or know
             if such a shennanigan will work?  Are there any other such
             differential scsi cards available that might work?  Anyone
             got such a critter gathering dust?  Is this really a scsi
             card or is it some other interface?


Thanks

Bob


From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sun Oct 22 03:54:42 2000
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 18:54:42 +0100
Subject: [pups] BSD2.11 Floating Point Simulator
Message-ID: <yHnWMXAihd85EwLN@ruffnready.co.uk>

Dear All,
I am currently looking at making the 2.11 FP simulator work.
Unfortunately I don't have a non floating point PDP to check things on.
Can some one who has please try running some FP code on the Generic
Kernel for 2.11 and let me know what happens.  I am slowly going through
the code but some symptoms would be useful.  

regards

Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome


From frank at wortner.com  Wed Oct  4 06:02:17 2000
From: frank at wortner.com (Frank Wortner)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 16:02:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000@panix2.panix.com>

I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD.  Just for
the fun,  I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN.  Unfortunately,  it's
not working.

My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
FreeBSD 4.1.1.  I've booted 2.11,  configured a custom networking kernel,
installed the unix and netnix images,  changed the IP addresses in
/etc/hosts to match my LAN,  run mkhosts to rebuild  /etc/hosts.dir and
/etc/hosts.pag and rebooted.

On the P11 front,  I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros --
just like the P11 README file said,  made sure that I had a tun driver
configured in my FreeBSD system,  and started P11.   Then I did an

	ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up

Running ifconfig on the host confirmed that things *seemed* to be OK:

# ifconfig tun0
tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518
        inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb
        inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000
        Opened by PID 32199

The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets,  and differ only
in the last octet.

Unfortunately,  once I boot 2.11 BSD,  I can't contact the "outside
world" from the emulator,  nor contact the emulator from the
outside.  No telnet,  no ftp,  pings just hang.

Everything looks OK from inside:

# ifconfig qe0
qe0: flags=63<UP,BROADCAST,NOTRAILERS,RUNNING>
        inet emulator-IP-address netmask ffff0000 broadcast Bcast-IP

What am I missing?

Thanks in advance,

Frank
 

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From grog at lemis.com  Wed Oct  4 09:47:22 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 09:17:22 +0930
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000@panix2.panix.com>; from frank@wortner.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 04:02:17PM -0400
References: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010031544040.23696-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <20001004091722.C1760@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Tuesday,  3 October 2000 at 16:02:17 -0400, Frank Wortner wrote:
> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD.  Just for
> the fun,  I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN.  Unfortunately,  it's
> not working.

There's a bug.  It used to work, and *something* changed.  I've been
meaning to look at it, but it's currently waiting on the tuit queue.

> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
> FreeBSD 4.1.1.  I've booted 2.11,  configured a custom networking kernel,
> installed the unix and netnix images,  changed the IP addresses in
> /etc/hosts to match my LAN,  run mkhosts to rebuild  /etc/hosts.dir and
> /etc/hosts.pag and rebooted.
>
> On the P11 front,  I've built a fake qma.rom file populated with zeros --
> just like the P11 README file said,  made sure that I had a tun driver
> configured in my FreeBSD system,  and started P11.  

I know the README says this will work, but I haven't been able to get
it to work that way.  Somewhere I have a real image; I'll see if I can
find it.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Oct  4 10:11:10 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 17:11:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Message-ID: <200010040011.RAA09035@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

> From: Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com>
> 
> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD.  Just for
> the fun,  I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN.  Unfortunately,  it's...
> 
> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
> FreeBSD 4.1.1.  I've booted 2.11,  configured a custom networking kernel,
> installed the unix and netnix images,  changed the IP addresses in...
> 
> 	ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up
> 
> # ifconfig tun0
> tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518
>         inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb
>         inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000
>         Opened by PID 32199
> 
> The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets,  and differ only
> in the last octet.
> 
> Unfortunately,  once I boot 2.11 BSD,  I can't contact the "outside
> world" from the emulator,  nor contact the emulator from the
> outside.  No telnet,  no ftp,  pings just hang.
> What am I missing?

	You're missing ARP.

	'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass
	thru the 'if_tun' driver.

	I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as
	FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely.

	What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with
	the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will
	want to talk to

	In /etc/netstart on the 11 side just after the 'ifconfig' lines:

	ifconfig qe0 inet netmask $netmask $hostname broadcast $broadcast up -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1
	# ifconfig sl0 inet 192.254.254.2 192.254.254.1 -arp -trailers >/dev/console 2>&1
	# slattach /dev/ttyS6 9600
	# Next line needed when running under the Begemot emulator
	arp -s 206.139.202.1 "0:0:c:3d:e9:f7" pub
	arp -s 206.139.202.51 "0:a0:24:78:9c:21" pub
 	arp -s 206.139.202.200 "0:90:27:88:64:74" pub
 	arp -s 206.139.202.201 "08:0:2b:f:5b:a6" pub
	arp -s 206.139.202.209 "0:40:5:a4:72:27" pub
	ifconfig lo0 inet localhost up -trailers	>/dev/console 2>&1

	Typically you only need the ARP info for the hosting system and
	the default gateway.   

	Oh, there's a bug in P11 that after 25 days of calendar up time the
	clock on the 11 basically stops ticking.   I've a fix I came up with
	(and submitted to the author) but it'll be a couple weeks until I
	know for sure if it's the right fix (32bit overflow in a calculation).

	Steven Schultz
	sms at to.gd-es.com

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From grog at lemis.com  Wed Oct  4 11:29:11 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 10:59:11 +0930
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
In-Reply-To: <200010040011.RAA09035@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Tue, Oct 03, 2000 at 05:11:10PM -0700
References: <200010040011.RAA09035@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20001004105911.H7292@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Tuesday,  3 October 2000 at 17:11:10 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi --
>
>> From: Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com>
>>
>> I've been trying to set up an emulated PDP-11 running 2.11 BSD.  Just for
>> the fun,  I'm trying to get the 11 to talk on a LAN.  Unfortunately,  it's...
>>
>> My configuration is Begemot P11 Version 2.7 running under
>> FreeBSD 4.1.1.  I've booted 2.11,  configured a custom networking kernel,
>> installed the unix and netnix images,  changed the IP addresses in...
>>
>> 	ifconfig tun0 host-IP-address emulator-IP-address up
>>
>> # ifconfig tun0
>> tun0: flags=8051<UP,POINTOPOINT,RUNNING,MULTICAST> mtu 1518
>>         inet6 fe80::260:8ff:febd:5882%tun0 --> :: prefixlen 64 scopeid 0xb
>>         inet host-IP-address --> emulator-IP-address netmask 0xffff0000
>>         Opened by PID 32199
>>
>> The IP addresses are identical in the first three octets,  and differ only
>> in the last octet.
>>
>> Unfortunately,  once I boot 2.11 BSD,  I can't contact the "outside
>> world" from the emulator,  nor contact the emulator from the
>> outside.  No telnet,  no ftp,  pings just hang.
>> What am I missing?
>
> 	You're missing ARP.
>
> 	'tun' only works with IP - ARP packets are not IP and do not pass
> 	thru the 'if_tun' driver.
>
> 	I have (using BSD/OS 4.1's if_tun which is probably the same as
> 	FreeBSD's) an emulated 11 going quite nicely.
>
> 	What you need to do ON THE 11's SIDE, is populate his arp table with
> 	the information about any host on the local LAN that the 11 will
> 	want to talk to

I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running.  I did
set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route
through that interface.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Oct  4 11:59:45 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 18:59:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Message-ID: <200010040159.SAA09659@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> 
> I didn't need to do this when I had the emulated net running.  I did
> set the netmask to 255.255.255.255, though, and put the default route
> through that interface.

	I thought you mentioned using the 'tap' driver rather than 'tun'
	at one time.   If my memory hasn't failed me that would explain
	why it worked since 'tap' passes ARP traffic.

	The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's
	side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11.

	Just after ifconfig'ing tun0 up use the hosting system's mac address:

ifconfig tun0 206.139.202.200 206.139.202.203 up
arp -s shemp 0:90:27:88:64:74 pub

	I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device.
	Without ARP on an ethernet I am not aware of any 'routing' that 
	can fill in the mac addresses in the ethernet packets.   

	Try pub'ing the arp entries and see if that works.   Might try 'tap'
	instead of 'tun' if you're looking for something else to try.

	Steven Schultz


From frank at wortner.com  Thu Oct  5 01:57:02 2000
From: frank at wortner.com (Frank Wortner)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 11:57:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
In-Reply-To: <200010041528.IAA19574@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010041152430.26565-100000@panix6.panix.com>

Just to let everyone know,  Stephen Schultz was right:  I needed arp table
entries as he described.`

Thanks to him and Greg Lehey for their useful replies.

Frank

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From frank at wortner.com  Thu Oct  5 04:37:09 2000
From: frank at wortner.com (Frank Wortner)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 14:37:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.21.0010041418140.20682-100000@panix3.panix.com>

This is just an FYI for anyone playing with the Begemot P11 emulator ...

The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz.  While this corresponds to AC line
frequency in many parts of the world,  it is not correct for the
U.S.,  where 60 Hz is the norm.  Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the
U.S.,  the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock
also.  When the software and "hardware" disagree on clock rates,  problems
happen.

My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered
the 50 Hz clock rate.  After I changed it to 60,  the emulator's time was
remarkably accurate!

If you want to change the default clock rate,  you can do so in the source
(look for the symbol "clock_rate" in "main.c"),  or you can just add

	set clock_rate 60

into your p11conf file.  This will override the default in the emulator
program.

Have fun -- I certainly am! :-)

Frank

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Oct  5 01:24:07 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Message-ID: <200010041524.IAA19559@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> No, that wasn't me.  FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver.  Do you mean
> Frank?

	Sure it does.  The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so  ;)
	Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time)
	as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site.

> > 	The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's
> > 	side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11.
> 
> I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all.  tun is a point-to-point
> interface.

	The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is
	so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated
	11 via the P11 hosting system.   If the hosting system doesn't
	publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets
	to the machine running P11.

> > 	I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device.
> 
> I don't think it can.  I think Harti used some magic there.

	I know it can't - I asked him about it :)   That's when I first 
	discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated
	11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a 
	response to its ARP request.   On the hosting side it would be 
	possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that
	and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY.

	Steven

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Oct  5 08:27:58 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 2000 15:27:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Default P11 Emulator Clock Rate
Message-ID: <200010042227.PAA21951@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Frank Wortner <frank at wortner.com>
> The default clock rate on P11 is 50 Hz.  While this corresponds to AC line
> frequency in many parts of the world,  it is not correct for the
> U.S.,  where 60 Hz is the norm.  Since PDP-11 Unix was developed in the
> U.S.,  the bootable distributions probably assume a 60 Hz clock

	Yes, the bootable 2.11 distribution assumes a 60Hz clock.  That is
	easily changed though for folks that live in 50Hz areas.  Edit the
	kernel config file and change LINEHZ to 50.  The rest of the system 
	has been changed to ask the kernel for the clockrate so there shouldn't
	be any compiled in assumptions outside the kernel (if I overlooked
	any let me know and I'll fix it).

> My emulated 11 had difficulties keeping accurate time until I discovered
> the 50 Hz clock rate.  After I changed it to 60,  the emulator's time was
> remarkably accurate!

	Indeed it is accurate.   Earlier versions of P11 would lose time
	very rapidly if the PDP-11 was "busy" - but the latest version of
	P11 is fantastic at keeping time.  If you run 'ntpd' on the 11 the
	time stays even closer to "real".

	Steven Schultz

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Oct  5 13:03:25 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 12:33:25 +0930
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
In-Reply-To: <200010041524.IAA19559@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Wed, Oct 04, 2000 at 08:24:07AM -0700
References: <200010041524.IAA19559@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20001005123324.C12234@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Wednesday,  4 October 2000 at  8:24:07 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
>> No, that wasn't me.  FreeBSD doesn't have a tap driver.  Do you mean
>> Frank?
>
> 	Sure it does.  The FreeBSD 4.1.1 release notes say so  ;)
> 	Before that the 'if_tap.c' module was available (for some time)
> 	as a download that could be retrieved from the author's site.

I stand corrected:

> revision 1.1
> date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10;  author: nsayer;  state: Exp;
> Add the tap driver.
> 
> The tap driver is used to present a virtual Ethernet interface to the
> system. Packets presented by the network stack to the interface are
> made available to a character device in /dev. With tap and the bridge
> code, you can make remote bridge configurations where both sides of
> the bridge are separated by userland daemons.
> 
> This driver also has a special naming hack to allow it to serve a similar
> purpose to the vmware port.
> 
> Submitted by:   myevmenkin at att.com, vsilyaev at mindspring.com

Ah well, I still haven't used it.

>>> 	The missing piece I forgot earlier was on the hosting machine's
>>> 	side to publish an ARP entry for the simulated 11.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure we weren't using arp at all.  tun is a point-to-point
>> interface.
>
> 	The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is
> 	so that other systems on the LAN know how to get to the simulated
> 	11 via the P11 hosting system.   If the hosting system doesn't
> 	publish an ARP entry the gateway, etc won't know to send the packets
> 	to the machine running P11.

I did that with a static route entry.

>>> 	I'm not sure how ARP can be made to work thru the 'tun' device.
>>
>> I don't think it can.  I think Harti used some magic there.
>
> 	I know it can't - I asked him about it :)   That's when I first
> 	discovered that nothing was able to communicate with the simulated
> 	11 - the 11 will not send anything unless it's able to get a
> 	response to its ARP request.   On the hosting side it would be
> 	possible perhaps to use a "interface route" but 2.11 can not do that
> 	and will block waiting for an ARPREPLY.

As I say, it's not that simple.  I used it without trouble for years.
Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file
system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it.  Since others
have the rest running, it's obviously nothing fundamental.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Fri Oct  6 02:42:05 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 09:42:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
Message-ID: <200010051642.JAA03467@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> > revision 1.1
> > date: 2000/07/20 17:01:10;  author: nsayer;  state: Exp;
> > Add the tap driver.
> 
> Ah well, I still haven't used it.

	Neither have I ;)   I thought (for 30 seconds or less) about 
	porting it to BSD/OS - it's not that big and didn't appear to be
	overly tricky.

	Only reason I knew about 'tap' was that P11 has support for it and
	a pointer where to fetch 'tap' from.

> > 	The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is...
> 
> I did that with a static route entry.

	Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander
	around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static 
	route.   In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't 
	add a static route if I wanted to.   Having the host system 
	'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation.

> As I say, it's not that simple.  I used it without trouble for years.

	Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more
	detail.  Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I
	can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet
	if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping.

> Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file
> system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it.  Since others

	Ouch!  On the 11 side?  Or on the hosting system's side?

	Steven

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From cube1 at home.com  Fri Oct  6 12:25:17 2000
From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Thu, 05 Oct 2000 21:25:17 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: UNIX Heritage Society Digest V1 #137
In-Reply-To: <200009241945.GAA72267@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20001005212349.06086580@cirithi>

I had to replace the RS 423 drives on my PDP-11/24 and in the connected 
VT-100 terminal after a problem on a PC clobbered the 11/24 console ports 
which in turn clobbered the VT-100 some time ago.

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com			visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection


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From grog at lemis.com  Fri Oct  6 13:35:03 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 13:05:03 +0930
Subject: [pups] Networking With 2.11 BSD and Begemot Emulator
In-Reply-To: <200010051642.JAA03467@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Thu, Oct 05, 2000 at 09:42:05AM -0700
References: <200010051642.JAA03467@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20001006130503.A21828@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Thursday,  5 October 2000 at  9:42:05 -0700, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>>> 	The reason for publishing an ARP entry on the hosting system is...
>> I did that with a static route entry.
>
> 	Publishing an ARP entry has the benefit of not needing to wander
> 	around to all the systems on the LAN (I've several) and add a static
> 	route.   In my case I don't own/run the local router so I couldn't
> 	add a static route if I wanted to.   Having the host system
> 	'arp ... pub' works was the simplest way to deal with the situation.
>
>> As I say, it's not that simple.  I used it without trouble for years.
>
> 	Well, i'd have to see it working or have it explained in a bit more
> 	detail.  Having been thru the DEQNA driver and IP stack in 2.11 I
> 	can't see how an 11 will communicate with anything over an ethernet
> 	if it can't perform the IP<->ethernet address mapping.

I don't know the details either, unfortunately.  I really need to find
some time to get the thing running again.

>> Recently something broke, and I suspect it trashed my root file
>> system, and I haven't had time to go back and fix it.  Since others
>
> 	Ouch!  On the 11 side?  Or on the hosting system's side?

On the 11 side.  I'm not sure what happened, but it looks like it.
It's not a big deal, since I have backups somewhere.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers


From pino at dohd.org  Mon Oct  9 23:39:36 2000
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:39:36 +0200
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
Message-ID: <20001009153936.A18313@mud.stack.nl>

Ahoy!

I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering
what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC
5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive.
If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't
figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably
not.

Any hints?

Kind regards,

Martijn.

[1] My hopes have vaporized into thin air by two "not so overly bright" 
    persons. One of them decided that the TKZ-50 drive we (the local
    user group) had should be split into controllerboard and actual
    drive (and stored seperately), the other one didn't recognize
    the TKZ50 controller, couldn't figure out what it was used for, and
    threw it away... Some people deserve to be shot.
-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Tue Oct 10 08:46:18 2000
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 00:46:18 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.1001010004455.25207B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, Martijn van Buul wrote:

> Ahoy!
> 
> I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering
> what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC
> 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive.
> If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't
> figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably
> not.
> 
> Any hints?

Perhaps you should start by telling what you have running on the PDP-11
right now? Both software and hardware wise.

> [1] My hopes have vaporized into thin air by two "not so overly bright" 
>     persons. One of them decided that the TKZ-50 drive we (the local
>     user group) had should be split into controllerboard and actual
>     drive (and stored seperately), the other one didn't recognize
>     the TKZ50 controller, couldn't figure out what it was used for, and
>     threw it away... Some people deserve to be shot.

Wow. Impressive stupidity!

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Oct 10 14:36:03 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 21:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
Message-ID: <200010100436.VAA01412@moe.2bsd.com>

Greetings -

> From: Martijn van Buul <pino at dohd.org>
> I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering
> what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC

	It is an 11/53 or better (73, 83, 93)?   There were numerous "MicroPDP"
	systems made but some of them were 11/23 or 23+ and those will not
	run 2.11BSD

> 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive.
> If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't
> figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably
> not.

	What OS did you manage to get Kermit running under?   I do not believe
	Kermit itself can handle the multiple block sizes used when writing
	the files that make up the "boot tape".   Do you have any development
	facilities on the currently running system?   If so then it might be
	possible to write a program to create a tape from the files brought
	over via kermit.

> Any hints?

	First shoot the individuals mentioned in [1]? ;)

	If you've a PC with a 5.25" drive and the ability to do image copies
	to it ('dd' on a *BSD* or Linux system) that might be one way to
	get 2.11 over to the MicroPDP.    A single RX33 can easily hold the
	standalone programs (boot, disklabel, restore, mkfs, icheck) and
	it only takes 3 or 4 RX33 disks to hold a root filesystem dump.
	The bad part is that the GENERIC kernel lacks networking due to
	space contraints.   Someone would have to create a custom kernel+
	networking root filesystem and create 3 or 4 RX33 images to be dd'd
	out to floppies.    Then, once a networking based root filesystem
	was loaded it should be possible to get pull the remaining data
	over the network with a "rsh ... | tar ..." command.

	Much depends on the ability to create floppy disks from images on a PC 
	that can be read on the RX33 which the PDP-11 has.  If that works
	then the rest will be timeconsuming (and the install instructions
	will of course be heavily modified ;)) but at least possible.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From pino at dohd.org  Wed Oct 11 04:36:31 2000
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 20:36:31 +0200
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
In-Reply-To: <200010100436.VAA01412@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 09:36:03PM -0700
References: <200010100436.VAA01412@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20001010203631.A29606@mud.stack.nl>

*whoops*. 

I've been mailing personal replies, instead of replies to the list. Too much
relying on procmail, I suppose.

Steven M. Schultz wrote:
 
> 	It is an 11/53 or better (73, 83, 93)?   There were numerous "MicroPDP"
> 	systems made but some of them were 11/23 or 23+ and those will not
> 	run 2.11BSD

It's a 11/53+ (aka: 1.5 MB RAM), which *should* be able to run 2.11BSD.

 
> 	What OS did you manage to get Kermit running under?

Micro/RSX

>	I do not believe Kermit itself can handle the multiple block sizes used
>	when writing the files that make up the "boot tape".   Do you have any
>	development facilities on the currently running system?   If so then it
>	might be possible to write a program to create a tape from the files
>	brought over via kermit.

There is a Macro-assembler, and reportedly a PASCAL compiler. However, my
Micro/RSX skills (let alone -programming skills) should be considered 
rudimentary - the only resource I have is the on-line helpfile (which isn't
very clear every now and then).

> 	If you've a PC with a 5.25" drive and the ability to do image copies
> 	to it ('dd' on a *BSD* or Linux system) that might be one way to
> 	get 2.11 over to the MicroPDP.    A single RX33 can easily hold the
> 	standalone programs (boot, disklabel, restore, mkfs, icheck) and
> 	it only takes 3 or 4 RX33 disks to hold a root filesystem dump.

The "RX33" is working (that's how I was able to low-level format two
MFM disks, and how I got Kermit running). And yes, I have a Minix-VMD box
with a 5.25" HD drive.

For the sake of completeness, I'll include the currently available 
hardware:

KJD11-D/S   (processor), DZQ11, TK50, RQDX3 with one RD32A, a third-party
21MB MFM disk (ST225, RD33? 31? Something like that), a second 21MB
MFM disk standing by (A microscribe of some sort), a 5.25" PC floppy 
drive shoe-horned into a RX33, and a DELQA card.

(Well, that's what I have installed right now. I do have some other cards,
 including a DRV11-J "Hi-density parallell line unit" and some strange
 VG-Electronics cards (which they claim are specific to surface analysis))

And a spare TK50 mechanic..

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From wkb at freebie.demon.nl  Wed Oct 11 07:20:11 2000
From: wkb at freebie.demon.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 23:20:11 +0200
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313@mud.stack.nl>; from pino@dohd.org on Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:39:36PM +0200
References: <20001009153936.A18313@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <20001010232011.A8918@freebie.demon.nl>

On Mon, Oct 09, 2000 at 03:39:36PM +0200, Martijn van Buul wrote:

> I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering
> what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC
> 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive.
> If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't
> figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably
> not.
> 
> Any hints?

Well... you can borrow one of my TK50s with 2.11 on it ;-)

-- 
Wilko Bulte  	 
wilko at freebsd.org 			Arnhem, the Netherlands

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From mark at cs.ualberta.ca  Wed Oct 11 00:30:24 2000
From: mark at cs.ualberta.ca (Mark Green)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 08:30:24 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
In-Reply-To: <20001009153936.A18313@mud.stack.nl> from Martijn van Buul at "Oct
 9, 2000 03:39:36 pm"
Message-ID: <20001010143026Z433793-12555+100@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>

> Ahoy!
> 
> I've about given up hope to create a 2.11 boottape myself[1], so I'm wondering
> what to do next. I have this MicroPDP, with a DELQA network card, a PC
> 5.25" diskdrive shoe-horned into working as RX33 and a TK50 tape drive.
> If it helps: I've managed to get Kermit running on the PDP, but I haven't
> figured out if it is possible to "kermit" to the tapedrive directly. Probably
> not.
> 
> Any hints?

If you need a TK50 with 2.11 on it I could produce one for you (provided
that you have jumped through all the license hoops).  The only sticky
point might be shipping, where are you located?  I'm travelling a lot
this month, so it may take a week or so to get it done.

-- 
Dr. Mark Green                                 mark at cs.ualberta.ca
McCalla Professor                              (780) 492-4584
Department of Computing Science                (780) 492-1071 (FAX)
University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2H1, Canada

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Oct 11 10:12:18 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 17:12:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] How to arrange bootable media for 2.11BSD?
Message-ID: <200010110012.RAA13052@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Martijn van Buul <pino at dohd.org>
> *whoops*. 
> 
> I've been mailing personal replies, instead of replies to the list. Too much
> relying on procmail, I suppose.

	;)

> It's a 11/53+ (aka: 1.5 MB RAM), which *should* be able to run 2.11BSD.

	Indeed it should be able to.   I personally have not done so but the
	processor/mmu meet all the criteria and 1.5MB is perfect.

> The "RX33" is working (that's how I was able to low-level format two

	I have a "RX33" on my 11/73 so I can create a boot  disk and the
	root filesystem dump (split over 3 or 4 1.2MB disk images).

> For the sake of completeness, I'll include the currently available 
> hardware:

	Ah, thanks!   That answers some other questions I was going to ask ;)

> KJD11-D/S   (processor), DZQ11, TK50, RQDX3 with one RD32A, a third-party
> 21MB MFM disk (ST225, RD33? 31? Something like that), a second 21MB
> MFM disk standing by (A microscribe of some sort), a 5.25" PC floppy 
> drive shoe-horned into a RX33, and a DELQA card.

	It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to
	fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB
	at least for /usr.   An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53
	paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at to.gd-es.com


From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Thu Oct 12 00:29:18 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 10:29:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <200010110012.RAA13052@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Oct 10, 2000 05:12:18 PM
Message-ID: <200010111429.KAA23987@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> 	It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to
> 	fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB
> 	at least for /usr.   An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53
> 	paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate.
> 
> 	Steven Schultz
> 	sms at to.gd-es.com

Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
(like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but
maybe something will surface).  Anyway... for the sake of discussion,
and general dumpster diving knowledge....

1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
    work on a PDP-11?

2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).

I often run across lots of smaller DEC scsi drives in MooU surplus,
as well as assorted MFM drives from retired AT crates.  IF I can
find out what is worth saving to use, that would be great info
to have handy, whilst dumpster diving.  At a buck or two a chassis,
it is worth saving a few drives, provided I know what to save.

I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.

Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?

Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?

I vaguely remember some notes on some of this somewhere.  Any urls
or pointers thereto would be appreciated.

Thanks

Bob Keys
rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Thu Oct 12 10:03:42 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:03:42 -0400
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
Message-ID: <001011200342.202026f0@trailing-edge.com>

Bob Keys wrote:

>1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>    work on a PDP-11?

Perhaps the number one most frequently asked question on this list :-).
See

 http://ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/third-party-disks.txt

for Terry Kennedy's excellent collection of DECUServe articles with lots
of juicy details about using non-DEC MFM drives and floppy drives on DEC
RQDXn controllers.

Tim.

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Thu Oct 12 12:33:35 2000
From: allisonp at world.std.com (allisonp at world.std.com)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 22:33:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <200010111429.KAA23987@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.1001011222653.13816A-100000@world.std.com>

> 
> 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>     work on a PDP-11?

Many, any that are similar to ST225(RD31) and ST251(RD32) or have the same
CHS as RD52 (Quantum D540), MIcropolus 1325(rd53) or Maxtor2190(rd54).
Those disks were DEC baged but not DEC made and are findable.  there are
many similar out there as well.
 
> 2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).

Yes if you have a SCSI card that is MSCP compatable.  THese are scarce
 as many are still in service or quickly picked up.

> I often run across lots of smaller DEC scsi drives in MooU surplus,
> as well as assorted MFM drives from retired AT crates.  IF I can
> find out what is worth saving to use, that would be great info
> to have handy, whilst dumpster diving.  At a buck or two a chassis,
> it is worth saving a few drives, provided I know what to save.

There is a good chance they are useable depending on the controller 
in your DEC hardware.

> I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
> to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.

Someone else will confirm but 2.11 handles MSCP so that means RQDX
controllers for MFM or many of the SCSI controlers that speak MSCP.

> Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?

See above list.


> Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?

Yes, with the right controller, some caveats.

Hopefully you will get more detailes from others.

Allison

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Oct 12 13:07:14 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 20:07:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
Message-ID: <200010120307.UAA26966@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi Bob -

> From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
> Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
> (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but

	Interesting.   I wouldn't have thought an 11/73 or similar would
	be too hard to find.

> 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>     work on a PDP-11?

	Tim has already jumped in with a pointer or two.

> 2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).

	Oh yes!   But you need to have a Qbus SCSI<->MSCP controller.  They
	are easy to _find_ but quite *expensive*.   Not as expensive as
	they were when I shelled out US$1500 for a new Emulex UC08 (and that
	with a good discount - the sales person was sympathetic to my
	explanation this was for a 'hobby').    Used CMD, Emulex or Dilog
	controllers will run around $500-900.

	Once you have gotten over the sticker/exchequer shock the upside
	is that you can use about many SCSI disk or tape drives that other
	folks are tossing otu because they're too small.   The older ~300MB
	and 1GB disks that are not useful on modern systems are great in
	a PDP-11 environment.    Uh, don't bother putting a 73GB Cheetah
	on an 11 ;)

	One place that lists CMD and Emulex controllers is:

		http://www.ficompinc.com

> I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
> to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.
> 
> Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?

	At one time I had a uVax-II with a Dilog DQ696 (I think that was 
	the model number) that had a couple ESDI drives on it - a ~300MB
	Miniscribe disk and a couple Maxtor RD53 sized drives.

> Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?

	Definitely.    Emulex QD33 and QD35 adaptors (in addition to the
	Dilog DQ696) ring a bell as far as non-SCSI disks go.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Fri Oct 13 04:14:20 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:14:20 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <200010120307.UAA26966@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Oct 11, 2000 08:07:14 PM
Message-ID: <200010121814.OAA22228@uni01du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> Hi Bob -

Hello.....

> > From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu
> > Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
> > (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but
> 
> 	Interesting.   I wouldn't have thought an 11/73 or similar would
> 	be too hard to find.

Most of the PDP stuff has long since been surplussed, and I have trolled
the local newsfeeds but nothing seems to turn up.  VAXen are the usual
fare, since PDP's were not that common around here.  The RTP NC area did
not really get big into computering until the VAX era.

> > 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
> >     work on a PDP-11?
> 
> 	Tim has already jumped in with a pointer or two.
> 
> > 2.  Can any scsi drives be used (RZ-23's or that kind of thing?).
> 
> 	Oh yes!   But you need to have a Qbus SCSI<->MSCP controller.  They
> 	are easy to _find_ but quite *expensive*.   Not as expensive as
> 	they were when I shelled out US$1500 for a new Emulex UC08 (and that
> 	with a good discount - the sales person was sympathetic to my
> 	explanation this was for a 'hobby').    Used CMD, Emulex or Dilog
> 	controllers will run around $500-900.

I fell into a MVII yesterday that has a Dilog controller.  Is that the
one you are talking about?  If so, that could be a lucky find.

Here's a crazy, but possible thought.... can I write 211BSD drives from
a MicroVAX II and move the card/drives over to the PDP-11 and have a
reasonable expectation that they will work, or at least boot to a root
or a miniroot or such?  It is a long shot, but if I am just dd'ing
images, it might work, I would think.

One of my goals with the MVII is to use it to write 9 track tapes, IFF
I can lay hands on one of several 9 trackkers in surplus in the next
few weeks.  They were originally used on a local VAXsystem 5400 crate
and are single ended scsi Ciphers.  Could they be used on a PDP-11, too?

> 	Once you have gotten over the sticker/exchequer shock the upside
> 	is that you can use about many SCSI disk or tape drives that other
> 	folks are tossing otu because they're too small.   The older ~300MB
> 	and 1GB disks that are not useful on modern systems are great in
> 	a PDP-11 environment.    Uh, don't bother putting a 73GB Cheetah
> 	on an 11 ;)

I have plenty of the RZ55/56/57/58ish things that have popped up in
surplus that I am using on my VAXstation toyz.  All the PeeCee types
avoid them like the plague, and I truck them out by the handfull.
MooU was big on those and DS5000/200 crates.  They are now hitting
surplus quite frequently.

> 	One place that lists CMD and Emulex controllers is:
> 
> 		http://www.ficompinc.com
> 
> > I will assume the target OS is 2.11BSD or 2.9BSD, since those seem
> > to handle the greatest assortment of hardware types.
> > 
> > Can any of these non-DEC drives be adapted to MVII use?
> 
> 	At one time I had a uVax-II with a Dilog DQ696 (I think that was 
> 	the model number) that had a couple ESDI drives on it - a ~300MB
> 	Miniscribe disk and a couple Maxtor RD53 sized drives.

I had one of those, too, a few months back, but stripped the MVI it came
out of, without thinking of hanging onto that card.  Minus two points for
me.  Someone else was lucky that day.....(:+}}...

> > Can any of the early MFM or ESDI Sun drives be used?
> 
> 	Definitely.    Emulex QD33 and QD35 adaptors (in addition to the
> 	Dilog DQ696) ring a bell as far as non-SCSI disks go.

I have half a dozen of these early Sun drives in storage, so that is
good to know, and I did save the 650mb esdi drive from the MVI, thinking
I could use it on a Sun, but never got around to it.

> 	Steven Schultz
> 	sms at moe.2bsd.com

Thanks for the tidbits folks!

Bob

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From wkb at freebie.demon.nl  Thu Oct 12 18:11:06 2000
From: wkb at freebie.demon.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 10:11:06 +0200
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <200010111429.KAA23987@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>; from rdkeys@unity.ncsu.edu on Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400
References: <200010110012.RAA13052@moe.2bsd.com> <200010111429.KAA23987@uni04du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <20001012101105.B18613@freebie.demon.nl>

On Wed, Oct 11, 2000 at 10:29:18AM -0400, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:
> > 	It is going to take some creative symlink and mount point work to
> > 	fit 2.11 into 20MB disks - the system really expects to have ~80MB
> > 	at least for /usr.   An RD54 at 159MB is more than enough but a RD53
> > 	paired with a couple RD32/3 would be adequate.
> > 
> > 	Steven Schultz
> > 	sms at to.gd-es.com
> 
> Steven.... I have been thinking of trying to find a PDP-11 of some sort
> (like hunting for needles in a hay stack in this part of the woods, but
> maybe something will surface).  Anyway... for the sake of discussion,
> and general dumpster diving knowledge....
> 
> 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
>     work on a PDP-11?

RD53 is a Micropolis 1375 (eh, no the MFM variant of it.. 75 is SCSI.
Maybe 1325??).

RD54 is a Maxtor or Newbury data drive.
 
I can look up the details if needed. As far as MFM drives go I would not
consider anything smaller than a 53.

-- 
Wilko Bulte  	 
wilko at freebsd.org 			Arnhem, the Netherlands

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From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Fri Oct 13 04:23:56 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 14:23:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SGI.3.95.1001011222653.13816A-100000@world.std.com> from "allisonp@world.std.com" at Oct 11, 2000 10:33:35 PM
Message-ID: <200010121823.OAA23482@uni01du.unity.ncsu.edu>

> > 1.  What mfm hard drives from the non-DEC world could be adapted to
> >     work on a PDP-11?
> 
> Many, any that are similar to ST225(RD31) and ST251(RD32) or have the same
> CHS as RD52 (Quantum D540), MIcropolus 1325(rd53) or Maxtor2190(rd54).
> Those disks were DEC baged but not DEC made and are findable.  there are
> many similar out there as well.

Oh, stupid me... I cleaned up the junk pile a couple of months back
and not thinking threw out about 20 of these mfm critters, not thinking
they were much usable, any more.  I did save a couple of the 150mb
mfm things from the Sun3 crate, though.  They were Micropolis, if
memory is correct.  All the 20/30/40/60/80mb things I chucked.
Oh well.

On the ESDI drives, has anyone tried the IBM things from Model 60
and Model 80 machines?  They were 70/115/300mb drives, and are
quite common.  If they were usable, I have bunches of those that
have not yet been thrown out.  They are also quite numerous in
local surplus.

Bob

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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Oct 13 09:44:38 2000
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 01:44:38 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [pups] What hard drives to look for for PDP-11 use?
In-Reply-To: <200010121823.OAA23482@uni01du.unity.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <200010122344.BAA05071@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 12 Oct, rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu wrote:

> On the ESDI drives, has anyone tried the IBM things from Model 60
> and Model 80 machines?  
I am using Micropolis 1654-7 (150MB), 1664-7 (320MB) and Maxtor XT4380
(350MB) ESDI drives from PCs and Apollo Domain DN3X00 Machines with a
Dilog DQ686 QBus MSCP controller. Last week I salvaged a XT4780 (~700MB)
but did not have the time to test it. I had no problems using this
disks. After reformating them with the controller on board diag they
worked well in my MicroVAX II. I expect no problems with it when I
convert the VAX to a PDP11/23. 
The problem with some IBM PS/2 ESDI drives is the proprietary
connector, that combinates signal and power lines in one connector.
I don't know if they are usable with a normal ESDI controller. On the
other hand: In my PS/2 80 is the same Maxtor XT4380 like the one from
Apollo I am using with the Dilog. 
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


From rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu  Wed Oct 18 02:39:28 2000
From: rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu (rdkeys at unity.ncsu.edu)
Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 12:39:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] 9 track reelers on MVII.... will an IBM differential drive work?
Message-ID: <200010171639.MAA21656@uni03du.unity.ncsu.edu>

On a lark, my ol' propeller headed beanie was whirring, again, today.

Problem:  how to use old IBM differential scsi reel tape deck to make
          reel tapes for antique unix....

Discussion:  I picked up a perfectly fine looking IBM 9348-001 differential
             scsi interface tape deck from an AS400 box.  I had thought of
             using a differential to single-ended scsi converter, but, they
             are a tad dear for this olde man's beer bellie peanut computer
             budget.  Thinking there had to be some other way of making use
             of this deck to write some fine old reels, I saw, buried deep
             in the pdp-11 cards list a differential tape card by Dilogic,
             and though... hmmm, can the old MVII crank out to the 9 track
             via such a card?

Solutions:   anyone have any insights on trying something like this or know
             if such a shennanigan will work?  Are there any other such
             differential scsi cards available that might work?  Anyone
             got such a critter gathering dust?  Is this really a scsi
             card or is it some other interface?


Thanks

Bob


From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sun Oct 22 03:54:42 2000
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2000 18:54:42 +0100
Subject: [pups] BSD2.11 Floating Point Simulator
Message-ID: <yHnWMXAihd85EwLN@ruffnready.co.uk>

Dear All,
I am currently looking at making the 2.11 FP simulator work.
Unfortunately I don't have a non floating point PDP to check things on.
Can some one who has please try running some FP code on the Generic
Kernel for 2.11 and let me know what happens.  I am slowly going through
the code but some symptoms would be useful.  

regards

Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome


