From rms at gnu.org  Mon Dec  1 11:46:03 2003
From: rms at gnu.org (Richard Stallman)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:46:03 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code
In-Reply-To: <1070098024.3fc8666877175@www.paradise.net.nz> (message from
	Wesley Parish on Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:27:04 +1300 (NZDT))
References: <1069759627.3fc33c8bf250a@www.paradise.net.nz>
	<E1AOtEc-0004E2-NC@fencepost.gnu.org>
	<1069931747.3fc5dce357a72@www.paradise.net.nz>
	<1070098024.3fc8666877175@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <E1AQd8V-0002Sj-Oo@fencepost.gnu.org>

    In that case, do you have any objections to me siccing the TUHS(The Unix 
    Heritage Soc.)http://www.tuhs.org/ /PUPS(PDP11 Unix Preservation 
    Soc.)http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/ people on to it? 

I am not sure what you mean by that, but whatever it is,
I probably don't object.

From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Tue Dec  2 13:01:25 2003
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 04:01:25 +0100
Subject: [pups] Mini UNIX (V6) and V7 tapes found
Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E50F@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>

All,

I wrote:

> Looks liek I ran into a bunchof really old and useful tapes
> here.  Two tapes come from Bell Labs, and seem to contain the
> official Mini UNIX (Sixth Edition) and the official UNIX,
> Seventh Edition.

Hmm.  Well, the V7 tape is saved... took a bunch of retries, but
I managed to grab all of it.

The V6 (Mini-UNIX) tape was OK, but some !$%(!@#$%@# must have run
out of blank tapes, and decided to use this one.. it contains binary
data.  Major bummer, sorry :(

Still working on the 2.8BSD tape, which needs more work.  I also
have to work on Christian Corti's tapes.. now that I have a working
800bpi SCSI drive, I actually *can* :)  [thanks Walter!]

Images will be sent off to the PUPS archive.

Cheers,
	Fred

From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Tue Dec  2 17:51:01 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:51:01 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [pups] Possible Trix source tape Was Fwd: Re: [TUHS] Re: AI
	LabLispmachine source code
Message-ID: <1070351461.3fcc4465b4d1d@www.paradise.net.nz>

First, an explanation - I'm interested in exhuming the Trix kernel - written 
at MIT -, which for a while was to have been the GNU kernel, according to RMS 
and the official FSF histories: 
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU 
 
I've been in contact with RMS - pestering the poor hacker ;) - and he's told 
me he's got a tape that might have the Trix source on it, but he doesn't have 
a tape drive or enough time.  I'm in NZ, which is a bit of a long way away 
from Mass., so I'm asking if anyone else in the vicinity is interested in 
seeing one of the earlier 7th Ed. clones to be written? 
 
I've got a number of reasons for wanting to read it - among them, the wish to 
compare with Minix 0.0 -, putting the ubiquity of Unix during the early 80s 
into perspective, and of course getting something to generalize any code I 
write for 32VI. 
 
So, if anyone's interested and in the vicinity, just get in touch with RMS and 
let him know you're interested and have the time. 
 
Thanks 
 
Wesley Parish 
 
P.S.  It's interesting to consider what might've been if the GNU project 
hadn't got behind on the Hurd, and got up-to-speed with Trix.  Jokes like "Who 
says you can't teach an old dog GNU TRIX?" spring immediately to mind ... 
 
----- Forwarded message from Richard Stallman <rms at gnu.org> ----- 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:17:32 -0500 
From: Richard Stallman <rms at gnu.org> 
Reply-To: "rms at gnu.org" <rms at gnu.org> 
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code 
To: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz> 
 
In this context it means, getting someone in the appropriate community who's 
 interested, around to check up on the tape. 
 
Ok. I have the tape here. 
 
----- End forwarded message ----- 
 
 
 
"I me.  Shape middled me.  I would come out into hot!"  
I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the  
other horizon.  

From chpap at ics.forth.gr  Sat Dec 13 02:31:12 2003
From: chpap at ics.forth.gr (Christos Papachristou)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:31:12 +0200
Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory
Message-ID: <001001c3c0cd$5b5ff5b0$11b95b8b@ics.forth.gr>

 
I recently found a cabinet with a MicroVAX II (in 2 BA23 enclosures) and
quite a lot storage devices on it. I plan to replace the MicroVAX II CPU
module (M7606-AA) with a pdp11/73 CPU module (M8192) . I only have a
512k RAM module (M8067LA) for the pdp11/73 . The microVAX has two quad
height memory modules , but I haven't checked yet whether they are 1, 2
,4 or 8 megs each (ie M7607,M7608 or M7609) .Is it possible to keep some
of the MicroVAX memory modules if they are below or equal to 4 megs?  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20031212/7b2dc5aa/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.gif
Type: image/gif
Size: 145 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20031212/7b2dc5aa/attachment.gif>

From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca  Sat Dec 13 03:23:35 2003
From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:23:35 -0500
Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory
In-Reply-To: <001001c3c0cd$5b5ff5b0$11b95b8b@ics.forth.gr>
References: <001001c3c0cd$5b5ff5b0$11b95b8b@ics.forth.gr>
Message-ID: <20031212172335.GB3476@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 06:31:12PM +0200, Christos Papachristou wrote:
>  
> Is it possible to keep some
> of the MicroVAX memory modules if they are below or equal to 4 megs?  


  No.  The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those
ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok.  At least, that's
what I've always been told.

-- 
David Evans                                         dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Sat Dec 13 03:56:17 2003
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:56:17 +0100
Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory
Message-ID: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E5A8@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>

Hi all,

>   No.  The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those
> ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok.  At least, that's
> what I've always been told.
Correct.

--f

From emu at ecubics.com  Sat Dec 13 05:29:49 2003
From: emu at ecubics.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 12:29:49 -0700
Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory
In-Reply-To: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E5A8@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E5A8@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
Message-ID: <3FDA172D.2020204@ecubics.com>

Fred N. van Kempen wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> 
>>  No.  The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those
>>ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok.  At least, that's
>>what I've always been told.
> 
> Correct.

Really ? I thought the uVaxI had the memory on the qbus ?


From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca  Sat Dec 13 06:14:29 2003
From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 15:14:29 -0500
Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory
In-Reply-To: <3FDA172D.2020204@ecubics.com>
References: <7AD18F04B62B7440BE22E190A3F7721409E5A8@mwsrv04.microwalt.nl>
	<3FDA172D.2020204@ecubics.com>
Message-ID: <20031212201429.GA4051@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>

On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 12:29:49PM -0700, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
> 
> >Hi all,
> >
> >
> >> No.  The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those
> >>ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok.  At least, that's
> >>what I've always been told.
> >
> >Correct.
> 
> Really ? I thought the uVaxI had the memory on the qbus ?
> 

  uVAX I does, I think, but IIRC the original post was about uVAX II
memory.

-- 
David Evans                                         dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Sat Dec 13 08:49:51 2003
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 14:49:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory
Message-ID: <200312122249.hBCMnpo23276@opihi.ucsd.edu>

> From: "Christos Papachristou" <chpap at ics.forth.gr>
> To: <pups at minnie.tuhs.org>
> Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:31:12 +0200
> Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory
>  
> I recently found a cabinet with a MicroVAX II (in 2 BA23 enclosures) and
> quite a lot storage devices on it. I plan to replace the MicroVAX II CPU
> module (M7606-AA) with a pdp11/73 CPU module (M8192) . I only have a
> 512k RAM module (M8067LA) for the pdp11/73 . The microVAX has two quad
> height memory modules , but I haven't checked yet whether they are 1, 2
> ,4 or 8 megs each (ie M7607,M7608 or M7609) .Is it possible to keep some
> of the MicroVAX memory modules if they are below or equal to 4 megs?  

No.
MicroVAX memory uses a different interconnect scheme.
It is not in the Qbus address space.

    carl
-- 
    carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                 clowenst at ucsd.edu

From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Dec 13 11:56:25 2003
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 02:56:25 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory
In-Reply-To: <20031212172335.GB3476@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0312130254520.7015-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, David Evans wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 12, 2003 at 06:31:12PM +0200, Christos Papachristou wrote:
> >  
> > Is it possible to keep some
> > of the MicroVAX memory modules if they are below or equal to 4 megs?  
> 
>   No.  The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those
> ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok.  At least, that's
> what I've always been told.

And that's correct.

The 11/73 require Q-bus memory. The only VAX that used this is the
MicroVAX I.
If the 11/73 really is a disguised 11/83 CPU, you can use the 11/83 PMI
memory, which don't work the same way as the VAX PMI.

(PMI by the way stands for Private Memory Interconnect)

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Dec 13 11:58:39 2003
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2003 02:58:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] pdp11/73 memory
In-Reply-To: <3FDA172D.2020204@ecubics.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0312130258000.7015-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003, emanuel stiebler wrote:

> Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
> 
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > 
> >>  No.  The uVAX memory requires special PMI stuff (carried over those
> >>ribbon cables) that the PDP-11 CPUs don't grok.  At least, that's
> >>what I've always been told.
> > 
> > Correct.
> 
> Really ? I thought the uVaxI had the memory on the qbus ?

Correct. :-)
And so the uVAX I don't have ribbon cables to memory.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From rms at gnu.org  Mon Dec  1 11:46:03 2003
From: rms at gnu.org (Richard Stallman)
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 20:46:03 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code
In-Reply-To: <1070098024.3fc8666877175@www.paradise.net.nz> (message from
	Wesley Parish on Sat, 29 Nov 2003 22:27:04 +1300 (NZDT))
References: <1069759627.3fc33c8bf250a@www.paradise.net.nz>
	<E1AOtEc-0004E2-NC@fencepost.gnu.org>
	<1069931747.3fc5dce357a72@www.paradise.net.nz>
	<1070098024.3fc8666877175@www.paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <E1AQd8V-0002Sj-Oo@fencepost.gnu.org>

    In that case, do you have any objections to me siccing the TUHS(The Unix 
    Heritage Soc.)http://www.tuhs.org/ /PUPS(PDP11 Unix Preservation 
    Soc.)http://minnie.tuhs.org/PUPS/ people on to it? 

I am not sure what you mean by that, but whatever it is,
I probably don't object.

From masouds at stormbird.org  Tue Dec  2 04:51:02 2003
From: masouds at stormbird.org (Masoud A. Sharbiani)
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 13:51:02 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32I: spl*() and paging up
In-Reply-To: <3FC96E2B.1030200@monmouth.com>;
	from patv@monmouth.com on Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 11:12:27PM -0500
References: <3FC96E2B.1030200@monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <20031201135102.A1684@stormbird.org>

Sorry if this has been asked before, is there any source repository/tarball for your work so far available?
cheers,
Masoud

On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 11:12:27PM -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> A quick update.
> 
> I have spl*() code as well as ia32 paging up in a small test kernel. 
> More testing remains to be done before integrating into 32I kernel. 
> Interrupt structure working well, as well as system call interface.
> 
> Still need copyin(), copyout(), fubyte(), fuibyte(), fuword(), etc., as 
> well as save(), resume(), etc.
> 
> Future progress will slow down a little.  I have accepted an adjunct 
> teaching position, and will need to devote some otherwise free time to 
> preparing lessons.  I still expect to have a preliminary running kernel 
> by New Years.
> 
> Pat
> 	
> -- 
> I've always found paranoia to be a perfectly defensible position. -- Pat 
> Conroy
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

From Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de  Tue Dec  2 09:34:26 2003
From: Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de (Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 00:34:26 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX v7 projects
Message-ID: <XFMail.20031202003426.Hellwig.Geisse@mni.fh-giessen.de>

Hi all,

I thought that you possibly could be interested in
two projects, a small one that I did over a year ago
and a more recent one, which is currently under active
development.

In order to become acquainted with the old UNIX sources
as well as the behaviour of such a system running on old
(but simulated) hardware I figured out how to feed Keith
Bostic's original v7 tape images into Robert M. Supnik's
PDP-11 simulator so that the original bootstrap procedure
(described in "Setting Up Unix - Seventh Edition") could
be carried out exactly as written. In addition to that I
wrote a little program which traverses the root directory
of the simulated disk and extracts its contents recursively
(creating the same structure and files in the host's file
system). I copied all the needed software and a HOWTO into
a distribution package which can be found at

http://telexx.mni.fh-giessen.de/PDP11-UNIX

I did this little project as a "warm-up" for another and
quite a bit bigger project: porting UNIX Seventh Edition
to a modern RISC-like microprocessor (named ECO32). This
processor and a few peripherals are simulated for now,
but we intend to transform it into real hardware (we are
thinking of an FPGA implementation). These of course are
dreams of the future; what we have already is this:
 - an ECO32 simulator
 - an ECO32 back-end for the LCC compiler
 - an ECO32 assembler/linker/loader
 - a UNIX 7th Edition kernel ported to ECO32
We are working on a port of many of the commands; the
standard library and the shell are ready and waiting to
be integrated.

The homepage of this project is

http://telexx.mni.fh-giessen.de/ECO32

You are welcome to download the project in its current
state; don't expect anything user friendly though ;-)

If you have any questions regarding these two projects,
feel free to ask.

- Hellwig


From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Tue Dec  2 17:51:01 2003
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:51:01 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: Possible Trix source tape Was Fwd: Re: [TUHS] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine
 source code
Message-ID: <1070351461.3fcc4465b4d1d@www.paradise.net.nz>

First, an explanation - I'm interested in exhuming the Trix kernel - written 
at MIT -, which for a while was to have been the GNU kernel, according to RMS 
and the official FSF histories: 
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU 
 
I've been in contact with RMS - pestering the poor hacker ;) - and he's told 
me he's got a tape that might have the Trix source on it, but he doesn't have 
a tape drive or enough time.  I'm in NZ, which is a bit of a long way away 
from Mass., so I'm asking if anyone else in the vicinity is interested in 
seeing one of the earlier 7th Ed. clones to be written? 
 
I've got a number of reasons for wanting to read it - among them, the wish to 
compare with Minix 0.0 -, putting the ubiquity of Unix during the early 80s 
into perspective, and of course getting something to generalize any code I 
write for 32VI. 
 
So, if anyone's interested and in the vicinity, just get in touch with RMS and 
let him know you're interested and have the time. 
 
Thanks 
 
Wesley Parish 
 
P.S.  It's interesting to consider what might've been if the GNU project 
hadn't got behind on the Hurd, and got up-to-speed with Trix.  Jokes like "Who 
says you can't teach an old dog GNU TRIX?" spring immediately to mind ... 
 
----- Forwarded message from Richard Stallman <rms at gnu.org> ----- 
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 23:17:32 -0500 
From: Richard Stallman <rms at gnu.org> 
Reply-To: "rms at gnu.org" <rms at gnu.org> 
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Re: AI Lab Lispmachine source code 
To: Wesley Parish <wes.parish at paradise.net.nz> 
 
In this context it means, getting someone in the appropriate community who's 
 interested, around to check up on the tape. 
 
Ok. I have the tape here. 
 
----- End forwarded message ----- 
 
 
 
"I me.  Shape middled me.  I would come out into hot!"  
I from the spicy that day was overcasked mockingly - it's a symbol of the  
other horizon.  

From patv at monmouth.com  Tue Dec  2 22:53:30 2003
From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 07:53:30 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] 32I: spl*() and paging up
In-Reply-To: <20031201135102.A1684@stormbird.org>
References: <3FC96E2B.1030200@monmouth.com>
	<20031201135102.A1684@stormbird.org>
Message-ID: <3FCC8B4A.3010208@monmouth.com>

There is an archive on ftp://www.opensourcedepot.com/pub/32V, but it 
doesn't contain the latest code I'm working on.

The reason is that I'm working on locore.S, and the drivers, using a 
small kernel I developed some time ago as part of the 32 bit 
FreeDOS/DOS-C effort.   That kernel is easily adapted to any 
"personality" and is easy to test with.  In my version of the 32 bit 
FreeDOS effort, this kernel was akin to the "bios" in real mode, but I 
digress.

Eventually, files that contain VAX specific code, i.e., mfpr(), mtpr(), 
etc., will be modified and the bulk of the code will be processor 
independent, with processor specific code contained in separate 
directories.  The key files from this test kernel, including drivers, 
will then be rolled back into the 32V source, creating the first 32I 
kernel.  That will probably happen by the end of the month and will be 
my next code drop.  I'll announce that here when its ready.

Pat

Masoud A. Sharbiani wrote:
> Sorry if this has been asked before, is there any source repository/tarball for your work so far available?
> cheers,
> Masoud
> 
> On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 11:12:27PM -0500, Pat Villani wrote:
> 
>>A quick update.
>>
>>I have spl*() code as well as ia32 paging up in a small test kernel. 
>>More testing remains to be done before integrating into 32I kernel. 
>>Interrupt structure working well, as well as system call interface.
>>
>>Still need copyin(), copyout(), fubyte(), fuibyte(), fuword(), etc., as 
>>well as save(), resume(), etc.
>>
>>Future progress will slow down a little.  I have accepted an adjunct 
>>teaching position, and will need to devote some otherwise free time to 
>>preparing lessons.  I still expect to have a preliminary running kernel 
>>by New Years.
>>
>>Pat
>>	
>>-- 
>>I've always found paranoia to be a perfectly defensible position. -- Pat 
>>Conroy
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>TUHS mailing list
>>TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> 
> 

-- 
People who get nostalgic about childhood were obviously never children. 
-- Bill Watterson, Calvin and Hobbes



From aek at spies.com  Wed Dec  3 07:39:10 2003
From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:39:10 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Possible Trix source tape
Message-ID: <200312022139.hB2LdAM2026953@spies.com>


I should have this on one of my backup tapes. If RMS
is willing to send his tape to California, I have the
equipment to read his.

--

> It's interesting to consider what might've been if the GNU project 
> hadn't got behind on the Hurd, and got up-to-speed with Trix.

--

If it wasn't tied up with Stanford licensing issues, the V Kernel would
have been a more mature system than Trix. From memory, there wasn't that
much to it at the time RMS was looking at it.


From aek at spies.com  Wed Dec  3 07:40:21 2003
From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 13:40:21 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Re: Possible Trix source tape
Message-ID: <200312022140.hB2LeLGd027106@spies.com>


> From memory, there wasn't that much to it at the time RMS was looking at it.

what I should have said was there wasn't much done on Trix when RMS was looking
at it.

From aek at spies.com  Wed Dec  3 10:37:05 2003
From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2003 16:37:05 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] trix src
Message-ID: <200312030037.hB30b5V3028162@spies.com>


Wesley, what I have of the sources is now up at www.bitsavers.org/MIT/trix

You might try contacting Dave Goddeau or Steve Ward to see what else
might still exist. Dave's MS thesis was on implementing an MP version
of the Trix kernel.

From kstailey at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 15 05:11:20 2003
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 11:11:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] question about mkfs(8) and stdio
Message-ID: <20031214191120.7737.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com>

Did stdio buffering change over time?

If you look at an old BSD mkfs for cylinder-group style file systems (not 7th
Ed filesystems) you will see the super block backup loop does not fflush(stdio)
between printf()s

        printf("super-block backups (for fsck -b#) at:");
        for (cylno = 0; cylno < sblock.fs_ncg; cylno++) {
                initcg(cylno);
                if (cylno % 10 == 0)
                        printf("\n");
                printf(" %d,", fsbtodb(&sblock, cgsblock(&sblock, cylno)));
        }

but I have memories that the superblocks were printed out one at a time as if
fflush(stdout) was called between them rather than one line at a time with
line-buffered stdio.

At some point I thought "SysV must have broke this" since newfs would print out
a complete row of superblock numbers at once with a big delay between the rows
rather than each superblock number with a short delay between each number.

But when I go searching the oldest BSD code has no fflush(stdout) the way
modern FreeBSD does:

        for (cylno = 0; cylno < sblock.fs_ncg; cylno++) {
                initcg(cylno, utime);
                if (mfs)
                        continue;
                j = snprintf(tmpbuf, sizeof(tmpbuf), " %ld%s",
                    fsbtodb(&sblock, cgsblock(&sblock, cylno)),
                    cylno < (sblock.fs_ncg-1) ? "," : "" );
                if (i + j >= width) {
                        printf("\n");
                        i = 0;
                }
                i += j;
                printf("%s", tmpbuf);
                fflush(stdout);
        }

Did stdio buffering change over time so that line buffering became the default?

Thanks,
Ken


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree

From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Mon Dec 15 10:48:28 2003
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 11:48:28 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] question about mkfs(8) and stdio
Message-ID: <200312150048.hBF0mS0Q029467@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>


> you will see the super block backup loop does not fflush(stdio) between
> printf()s

Was there a 'setbuf(stdout, NULL)' at the beginning? This would force immediate
output from any printf's (less efficient than a fflush)

From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Mon Dec 15 11:22:40 2003
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 14 Dec 03 17:22:40 PST
Subject: [TUHS] question about mkfs(8) and stdio
Message-ID: <0312150122.AA03565@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Kenneth Stailey <kstailey at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Did stdio buffering change over time?

Line buffering was a Berkeley innovation.  stdout became line-buffered by
default (when it is a terminal) in 4.0BSD.  4.2BSD added setlinebuf(3) to allow
people to make stdout or stderr line-buffered when they want to.  4.3BSD
extended it to work on any stream, not just stdout or stderr.

> If you look at an old BSD mkfs for cylinder-group style file systems (not 7th
> Ed filesystems)

Ahmm, you call that old?  To me it's new...  It's a (wonderful) 4.2BSD
innovation.

> but I have memories that the superblocks were printed out one at a time as if
> fflush(stdout) was called between them rather than one line at a time with
> line-buffered stdio.

I use 4.3BSD-* systems every day and have been for the past several years, and
you can take my word for it that on all 4.3BSD-* systems, including Quasijarus,
plain 4.3, and Ultrix the alternate superblock list output from mkfs/newfs
appears one line at a time on the tty.

> At some point I thought "SysV must have broke this"

I'm curious, where does SysV fit into this?  It's the wonderful 4.2BSD
filesystem a BSD-only thing that Missed'em-five people treated as a satanic
manifestation?

> since newfs would print out
> a complete row of superblock numbers at once with a big delay between the rows

That's exactly what it does.  BTW mkfs = newfs.  mkfs was/is the original UNIX
filesystem creator.  It was almost completely rewritten in 4.2BSD to create the
new filesystems.  At the same time the newfs program was written as a user-
friendly front-end to mkfs (it merely exec'ed mkfs with a bunch of options).
The situation remained in 4.3.  In 4.3-Tahoe/Quasijarus mkfs.c and newfs.c are
compiled and linked into one binary called newfs, CSRG was forced to do this in
order to support disk labels.

MS

From new_zmkm at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 24 02:51:13 2003
From: new_zmkm at hotmail.com (zmkm zmkm)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:51:13 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] RE: Fw: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT
Message-ID: <BAY99-F55XPJmca5Phe000222bc@hotmail.com>


mamun

tks for the prompt reply but we need the rate to malaysia not to jeddah and 
the rate must be break bulk because cntr will be very expensive.  since each 
shipment is about 15 000 tons (fifteen thousand tons) it means we'll need 
about 700 cntrs !!! , and the contract will be about 150.000 tons divided 
into 10 shipments of 15 000 each .


break bulk will be much cheaper , pls try to find some one else very 
urgently try shipco people maybe they can do it.

pls mamun this is very important and top urgent , also I need reply 
overnight as client is losing patience.

tks & rgs
zouhair


>From: mamun <mam_moudayfer at awalnet.net.sa>
>To: new_zmkm at hotmail.com
>Subject: Fw: RATE RQST FROM  RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:55:09 +0300
>
>Zouz
>
>Here is the reply fm brazil , as they can not offer service by Breakbulk.
>pls comments.
>Rgds/Mamun
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alexandre Jacomo <alexandre at unicarrier.com.br>
>To: asad_moudayfer at awalnet.net.sa <asad_moudayfer at awalnet.net.sa>
>Date: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:01 PM
>Subject: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT
>
>
>Dear Mr Asad Moudayfer
>
>Thank you for your below rate request. Pls be advised our best rate:
>
>From Rio de Janeiro Port to Jeddah Port
>Cntr 20' std: US$ 2100 + $200 Baf
>Cntr 40' std: US$ 3100 + $400 Baf
>TT 45 days via Singapore
>Charges in Rio de Janeiro Port
>US$ 25 BL
>US$ 50 per cntr 20' or 40' Capatazias - Brazilian THC
>
>Break Bulk from Rio de Janeiro Port to Port Klang/Malaysia
>Unfortunately we can't offer this service, because we can't use our BL to 
>Break Bulk cargo.
>
>Rgds,
>
>Alexandre J�como
>   Commercial Dept.
>   UnicarrieR Ltd. - The Friendshipper
>   Tel.: 5511 3253 5334 Fax: 5511 3253 5277
>   Email: alexandre at unicarrier.com.br
>   Web: www.unicarrier.com.br
>   Neutralidade - Seguran�a - �tica
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Asad
>To: Alexandre
>Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 2:10 PM
>Subject: Fw: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT
>
>
>
>Dear Alexandre
>
>Ref to our mail below earlier few minutes.
>
>Please note, we want rates by Break-bulk  from fob RIO JANERIO  upto PORT 
>KLANG/MALAYSIA
>COMMODITY : RAW SUGAR  IN BAGS TOTAL 150 THOUSAND TON / 15 THOUSAND TONS IN 
>EACH LOT.
>
>Please name the carrier & T/Time  along with your best obtainable Bulk 
>rates at your earliest.
>
>Best Regards
>
>Mamun
>Moudayfer & Bros co.
>Riyadh - Ksa
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Asad <asad_moudayfer at awalnet.net.sa>
>To: Alexandre <alexandre at unicarrier.com.br>
>Date: Monday, December 22, 2003 6:46 PM
>Subject: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT
>
>
>Dear Mr. Alexandre
>Good Day
>
>Please provide us your best possible FOB ocean freight rate for 1X40fit & 
>1X20fit cntr from RIO JANERIO to Jeddah port. The commodity is sugar.
>
>We will appriceate about your soonest reply.
>
>Thanks & Best Regards
>
>Asad
>Moudayfer & Bros Co
>Riyadh
>K.s.a.

_________________________________________________________________
Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work �  and 
yourself.   http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx


From new_zmkm at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 24 02:51:13 2003
From: new_zmkm at hotmail.com (zmkm zmkm)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 16:51:13 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] RE: Fw: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT
Message-ID: <BAY99-F55XPJmca5Phe000222bc@hotmail.com>


mamun

tks for the prompt reply but we need the rate to malaysia not to jeddah and 
the rate must be break bulk because cntr will be very expensive.  since each 
shipment is about 15 000 tons (fifteen thousand tons) it means we'll need 
about 700 cntrs !!! , and the contract will be about 150.000 tons divided 
into 10 shipments of 15 000 each .


break bulk will be much cheaper , pls try to find some one else very 
urgently try shipco people maybe they can do it.

pls mamun this is very important and top urgent , also I need reply 
overnight as client is losing patience.

tks & rgs
zouhair


>From: mamun <mam_moudayfer at awalnet.net.sa>
>To: new_zmkm at hotmail.com
>Subject: Fw: RATE RQST FROM  RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT
>Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 09:55:09 +0300
>
>Zouz
>
>Here is the reply fm brazil , as they can not offer service by Breakbulk.
>pls comments.
>Rgds/Mamun
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Alexandre Jacomo <alexandre at unicarrier.com.br>
>To: asad_moudayfer at awalnet.net.sa <asad_moudayfer at awalnet.net.sa>
>Date: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:01 PM
>Subject: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT
>
>
>Dear Mr Asad Moudayfer
>
>Thank you for your below rate request. Pls be advised our best rate:
>
>From Rio de Janeiro Port to Jeddah Port
>Cntr 20' std: US$ 2100 + $200 Baf
>Cntr 40' std: US$ 3100 + $400 Baf
>TT 45 days via Singapore
>Charges in Rio de Janeiro Port
>US$ 25 BL
>US$ 50 per cntr 20' or 40' Capatazias - Brazilian THC
>
>Break Bulk from Rio de Janeiro Port to Port Klang/Malaysia
>Unfortunately we can't offer this service, because we can't use our BL to 
>Break Bulk cargo.
>
>Rgds,
>
>Alexandre J�como
>   Commercial Dept.
>   UnicarrieR Ltd. - The Friendshipper
>   Tel.: 5511 3253 5334 Fax: 5511 3253 5277
>   Email: alexandre at unicarrier.com.br
>   Web: www.unicarrier.com.br
>   Neutralidade - Seguran�a - �tica
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Asad
>To: Alexandre
>Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 2:10 PM
>Subject: Fw: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT
>
>
>
>Dear Alexandre
>
>Ref to our mail below earlier few minutes.
>
>Please note, we want rates by Break-bulk  from fob RIO JANERIO  upto PORT 
>KLANG/MALAYSIA
>COMMODITY : RAW SUGAR  IN BAGS TOTAL 150 THOUSAND TON / 15 THOUSAND TONS IN 
>EACH LOT.
>
>Please name the carrier & T/Time  along with your best obtainable Bulk 
>rates at your earliest.
>
>Best Regards
>
>Mamun
>Moudayfer & Bros co.
>Riyadh - Ksa
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Asad <asad_moudayfer at awalnet.net.sa>
>To: Alexandre <alexandre at unicarrier.com.br>
>Date: Monday, December 22, 2003 6:46 PM
>Subject: RATE RQST FROM RIO JANERIO TO JEDDAH PORT
>
>
>Dear Mr. Alexandre
>Good Day
>
>Please provide us your best possible FOB ocean freight rate for 1X40fit & 
>1X20fit cntr from RIO JANERIO to Jeddah port. The commodity is sugar.
>
>We will appriceate about your soonest reply.
>
>Thanks & Best Regards
>
>Asad
>Moudayfer & Bros Co
>Riyadh
>K.s.a.

_________________________________________________________________
Working moms: Find helpful tips here on managing kids, home, work �  and 
yourself.   http://special.msn.com/msnbc/workingmom.armx


From wkt at tuhs.org  Wed Dec 24 07:39:43 2003
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 07:39:43 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] RE: Fw: RATE RQST
In-Reply-To: <BAY99-F55XPJmca5Phe000222bc@hotmail.com>
References: <BAY99-F55XPJmca5Phe000222bc@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20031223213943.GA36066@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 04:51:13PM +0000, zmkm zmkm wrote:
> tks for the prompt reply but we need the rate to malaysia not to jeddah and 

Apologies all for that spam. I've removed the poster's e-mail address
from the mailing list and it should not happen again.

	Warren

From ljb at merit.edu  Wed Dec 24 15:25:38 2003
From: ljb at merit.edu (Larry J. Blunk)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 00:25:38 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6
Message-ID: <20031224052538.GE512@upstairs.Domain>



   Apologies if this has been answered before, but I noticed
that there are AT&T copyright notices in the kernel sources
for Unix Edition 5, but they were removed in Edition 6.  You can
still see the comment blocks for the notices in Edition 6, but
the notices themselves have been removed.  Does anyone have the
history on this?

  I noticed that USL registered Editions 5, 6, 7 and 32V in
1992.  I would assume that Editions 4 and earlier are free
and clear because, prior to 1978, registration was a requirement
for protection.   Further, since USL waited longer than 5 years
to register the copyrights for 5, 6, 7 and 32V, these may be
free and clear as well.

  As I understand it, Editions 7 and 32V could have had copyright
protection without registration since they were released after
1978.  However, because they lacked copyright notices when
released, they may very well be considered public domain.  It was
not until 1989 that the requirement for including
copyright notices was dropped.



From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Dec 24 15:31:27 2003
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 22:31:27 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6
In-Reply-To: <20031224052538.GE512@upstairs.Domain>
References: <20031224052538.GE512@upstairs.Domain>
Message-ID: <20031223.223127.122029141.imp@bsdimp.com>

I think that one thing complicating the state of this code is that the
Uruguay Treaty restored many copyrights to many copyright holders who
had failed to put a notice in their works.  However, derivitive works
done while in the public domain would still belong to the folks that
did them, if I read things correctly.

Warner

From ljb at merit.edu  Wed Dec 24 16:05:36 2003
From: ljb at merit.edu (Larry J. Blunk)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 01:05:36 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6
In-Reply-To: <20031223.223127.122029141.imp@bsdimp.com> (from imp@bsdimp.com
	on Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 00:31:27 -0500)
References: <20031224052538.GE512@upstairs.Domain>
	<20031223.223127.122029141.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <20031224060536.GA599@upstairs.Domain>

On 12/24/03 00:31:27, M. Warner Losh wrote:
> I think that one thing complicating the state of this code is that  
> the
> Uruguay Treaty restored many copyrights to many copyright holders who
> had failed to put a notice in their works.  However, derivitive works
> done while in the public domain would still belong to the folks that
> did them, if I read things correctly.
> 
> 
>

  I found a document addressing the Uruguay Treaty at
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ38b.pdf.   It seems it only
applies to certain foreign works (non-US) that were previously
considered public domain in the US.

  In case you haven't guessed, I'm thinking about the various include
files in the Linux kernel that SCO has claimed infringes on their
copyrights.  Many of the defines and comments seem to have originated
in Unix Edition 7 and earlier. For example,

errno.h - http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/Nsys/sys/nsys/user.h.html
  and  http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V5/usr/source/s4/errlst.c.html

signal.h - http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/Nsys/sys/nsys/param.h.html

ioctl.h
ioctls.h -http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/sys/h/tty.h.html

ctype.h - http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/include/ctype.h.html

stat.h - http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V7/usr/include/sys/stat.h.html

 

From wkt at tuhs.org  Wed Dec 24 16:08:46 2003
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 16:08:46 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6
In-Reply-To: <20031224060536.GA599@upstairs.Domain>
References: <20031224052538.GE512@upstairs.Domain>
	<20031223.223127.122029141.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<20031224060536.GA599@upstairs.Domain>
Message-ID: <20031224060846.GA40195@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 01:05:36AM -0500, Larry J. Blunk wrote:
>  In case you haven't guessed, I'm thinking about the various include
> files in the Linux kernel that SCO has claimed infringes on their
> copyrights.  Many of the defines and comments seem to have originated
> in Unix Edition 7 and earlier. For example,
> 
> errno.h - http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/Nsys/sys/nsys/user.h.html
>  and  http://minnie.tuhs.org/UnixTree/V5/usr/source/s4/errlst.c.html

which are all under a BSD license provided by Caldera, see
http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf

So technically, yes someone owns the copyright on these files, but
they permit the content of the files to be placed in other programs
or kernels.

	Warren

From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Wed Dec 24 18:17:57 2003
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 03:17:57 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6
Message-ID: <20031224081831.D53231FAC@minnie.tuhs.org>

Larry J. Blunk:

     Apologies if this has been answered before, but I noticed
  that there are AT&T copyright notices in the kernel sources
  for Unix Edition 5, but they were removed in Edition 6.
  [...] I noticed that USL registered Editions 5, 6, 7 and 32V in
  1992.  I would assume that Editions 4 and earlier are free
  and clear [...]
  As I understand it, Editions 7 and 32V could have had copyright
  protection without registration since they were released after
  1978.  However, because they lacked copyright notices when
  released, they may very well be considered public domain.  It was
  not until 1989 that the requirement for including
  copyright notices was dropped.

========

Notwithstanding other comments about the history, for practical purposes
none of this matters for Seventh Edition and 32V and anything earlier,
because Caldera (as it then was) open-licensed them in January 2002;
see http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf.  To be precise,
that license covers

   32-bit 32V UNIX
   16 bit UNIX Versions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

with specific exclusion of System III and System V and successors.

That is why source code for the Seventh Edition system (for example)
is openly accessibly on the TUHS web server.

Among those whose dog work produced first a hobbyist-specific per-person
license, then the current BSD-like license, was Warren Toomey, who manages
that web server and this mailing list.  I don't think it will give him
a swollen head (or a wooden leg) to thank him now and then, and I do so here.

Long-time readers know all that, but those who have joined us recently
might not.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From wkt at tuhs.org  Wed Dec 24 19:09:43 2003
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 19:09:43 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6
In-Reply-To: <20031224081831.D53231FAC@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20031224081831.D53231FAC@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20031224090943.GA41441@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Wed, Dec 24, 2003 at 03:17:57AM -0500, Norman Wilson wrote:
>>   As I understand it, Editions 7 and 32V could have had copyright
>>   protection without registration since they were released after
>>   1978.  However, because they lacked copyright notices when
>>   released, they may very well be considered public domain....
> 
> Notwithstanding other comments about the history, for practical purposes
> none of this matters for Seventh Edition and 32V and anything earlier,
> because Caldera (as it then was) open-licensed them in January 2002;
> see http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Caldera-license.pdf.

About 2 years ago, Dennis Ritchie sent me a long e-mail explaining why
certain releases of UNIX, and 32V in particular, did not have any
copyright notices. When I get back from holidays, I'll see if Dennis
will let me forward the information here.
 
> Among those whose work produced ... the current BSD-like license,
> was Warren Toomey, who manages that web server and this mailing list.
> I don't think it will give him a swollen head (or a wooden leg) to
> thank him now and then, and I do so here.

It does make me go Owwww sometimes, especially with this SCO thing.

Have a good and safe Christmas, all.

	Warren

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Dec 25 01:41:57 2003
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 08:41:57 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] Copyright notices in Edition 5, removed in Edition 6
In-Reply-To: <20031224060846.GA40195@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20031223.223127.122029141.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<20031224060536.GA599@upstairs.Domain>
	<20031224060846.GA40195@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20031224.084157.39156674.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20031224060846.GA40195 at minnie.tuhs.org>
            Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> writes:
: So technically, yes someone owns the copyright on these files, but
: they permit the content of the files to be placed in other programs
: or kernels.

So long as the copyright notices, etc, are maintained...  An important
detail, but one which is worth remembering.  In the early days of
linux, there was much code borrowing from BSD w/o attribution (eg, the
copyright notices were filed off).  While most of these issues have
been corrected, it is important to note that proper forms must be
followed in order for the grant of license to be valid.

Warner

