From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Mon Jul  1 23:20:12 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 13:20:12 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] CMU Mach sources?
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.98af9706-7930-4b07-9dcb-0d6b940b5535@mail.outlook.com>

I finally got a chance to talk to someone who knows a hell of a lot about the i386 than I could ever hope to know.  I gave him all the materials and I think he spent more time replying to my email than doing the debugging. 




Basically the registers for entering protected mode with paging are backwards.  This is kind of funny as the port was done by Intel of all people. 




Anyway I reversed them and I now have the Mach kernel from 1988 booted under VMware. 




I have to say that it's super cool to finally have chased this one down. 


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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Tue Jul  2 03:40:23 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 01:40:23 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Mach 2.5 / MK35 booting on i386 (was CMU Mach sources?)
Message-ID: <ad598d12-f907-42ef-9cb8-8c47243276c5@PU1APC01FT004.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

As promised here is the diff & misc info on the build.  I installed the Mt Xinu disks to create a build environment and uucp’d the sources from CD#4 of Kirks’ CSRG set (/local/MACH/386/sys).

Grepping the source reveals it to be MK35.  Which makes sense from the release notes as this was an i386 only release:

------8<------8<------8<------8<
   ***** MK Version MK35  (rvb) *****


This is an I386 architecture release only.  It has been tested
on an AT as well as the hypercube.

No New features:
--- --------

Except possibly that the if_pc586.c is not timing dependent
any more.

The big deal about this release is that all the files in the
i386at directory and the files in Mach2.5 I386q are identical --
that is all improvements in the mainline have been merged to
the 3.0 code and vice versa.  NOTE:  the 3.0 com driver has
not been tested cause I did not have any hardware.  Also I
have lpr and if_par drivers that I did not even install for
the same reason.  (I needed to install com.c for the mouse
support code.)

ALSO, this release has the Prime copyrights changed to something
less threatening, courtesy of Prime Computer Inc.

Bug fix:
The panic that rfr reported with the ram_to_ptr is no longer
possible.
------8<------8<------8<------8<



For people who like DMESG’s here it is:
------8<------8<------8<------8<

boot:
442336+46792+115216[+38940+39072]


Insert file system

Sÿ boot: memory from 0x1000 to 0x7d0000
Kernel virtual space from 0xc0000000 to 0xc25d0000.
Available physical space from 0xa000 to 0x7d0000
i386_init: virtual_avail = c07d0000, virtual_end = c25d0000
end c01938d8, sym c01938dc(981c) str = c019d0f8(98a4)
[ preserving 78016 bytes of symbol table ]
Mach/4.3 #5.1(I386x): Wed Jan 20 00:45:55 WET 1988; obj/STD+WS-afs-nfs (localhost)
physical memory = 7.81 megabytes.  vm_page_free_count = 689
using 200 buffers containing 0.78 megabytes of memory
available memory = 5.55 megabytes. vm_page_free_count = 58e
fdc0: port = 3f2, spl = 5, pic = 6.
fd0:  port = 3f2, spl = 5, pic = 6. (controller 0, slave 0)
fd1:  port = 3f2, spl = 5, pic = 6. (controller 0, slave 1)
com0: port = 3f8, spl = 6, pic = 4. (DOS COM1)
lpr0: port = 378, spl = 6, pic = 7.
par0: port = 378, spl = 6, pic = 7.
root on `­b
------8<------8<------8<------8<

The diff from the CD is as follows:

------8<------8<------8<------8<
jsteve at 2006macpro:/mnt/c/temp/csrg$ diff -ruN sys mach25-i386
diff -ruN sys/Makeconf mach25-i386/Makeconf
--- sys/Makeconf        1970-01-01 08:00:00.000000000 +0800
+++ mach25-i386/Makeconf        2019-06-24 15:24:49.000000000 +0800
@@ -0,0 +1,102 @@
+#
+# Mach Operating System
+# Copyright (c) 1989 Carnegie-Mellon University
+# All rights reserved.  The CMU software License Agreement specifies
+# the terms and conditions for use and redistribution.
+#
+#
+# HISTORY
+# $Log:        Makeconf,v $
+# Revision 2.16  91/09/25  18:51:17  mja
+#      Fix VAX_CONFIG so that processor number component is last (for
+#      SUP wild-carding to work);  make MMAX_CONFIG consistent with
+#      other platforms as STD+ANY+EXP+64.
+#      [91/09/25  18:41:59  mja]
+#
+# Revision 2.15  91/09/24  20:07:07  mja
+#      Require new ${KERNEL_SERIES} macro in place of old ${RELEASE}
+#      even to specify the "latest" series;  add temporary
+#      ${ENVIRON_BASE};  add silent include of Makeconf-local.
+#      [91/09/22  03:16:36  mja]
+#
+#      Add SITE;  set SOURCEDIR to MASTERSOURCEDIR if present (for build).
+#      [91/09/21  18:06:08  mja]
+#
+# Revision 2.14  91/08/30  09:37:19  berman
+#      Set up default config for MMAX which is STD+MP (multiprocessor)
+#      [91/07/30  12:19:40  ern]
+#
+# Revision 2.13  91/04/02  16:04:53  mbj
+#      Added {I,AT}386_CONFIG=STD+WS+EXP lines.
+#      Changed ${MACHINE} references to ${TARGET_MACHINE}.
+#
+# Revision 2.12  90/08/30  12:24:52  bohman
+#      Changes for mac2.
+#      [90/08/28            bohman]
+#
+# Revision 2.11  89/09/25  22:43:32  mja
+#      Correct mis-merged OBJECTDIR.
+#
+# Revision 2.10  89/09/25  22:20:03  mja
+#      Use SOURCEDIR instead of VPATH for shadowing.  This means we
+#      can do away with the SRCSUFFIX stuff which "make" does by
+#      itself, and that Makefiles can use VPATH themselves.  I also
+#      "simplified" the definition of CONFIG and "release_...".
+#      [89/07/06            bww]
+#
+# Revision 2.9  89/08/08  21:44:58  jsb
+#      Defined PMAX_CONFIG.
+#      [89/08/03            rvb]
+#
+# Revision 2.8  89/07/12  23:02:52  jjc
+#      Defined SUN4_CONFIG.
+#      [89/07/12  23:01:03  jjc]
+#
+# Revision 2.7  89/04/10  00:34:59  rpd
+#      Changed OBJECTDIR name to correspond to new organization.
+#      [89/04/06            mrt]
+#
+# Revision 2.6  89/02/25  14:12:18  gm0w
+#      Changes for cleanup.
+#
+# Revision 2.5  89/02/25  14:08:30  gm0w
+#      Changes for cleanup.
+#
+# Revision 2.4  88/11/14  15:04:01  gm0w
+#      Changed the standard configurations to correspond
+#      to the new names.
+#      [88/11/02  15:45:44  mrt]
+#
+# Revision 2.3  88/09/07  15:44:43  rpd
+#      Moved CONFIG macros here from Makefile, so that the user
+#      can easily customize them by modifying Makeconf.
+#      [88/09/07  01:52:32  rpd]
+#
+# Revision 2.2  88/07/15  15:11:46  mja
+# Created.
+#
+
+VAX_CONFIG     = STD+ANY+EXP+16
+mac2_CONFIG    = MACMACH-macos_emul
+I386_CONFIG    = STD+WS+EXP
+AT386_CONFIG   = STD+WS+EXP
+MMAX_CONFIG    = STD+ANY+EXP+64
+
+#CONFIG        = ${${TARGET_MACHINE}_CONFIG?${${TARGET_MACHINE}_CONFIG}:STD+ANY+EXP}
+#CONFIG        = STD+WS+EXP-afs-nfs
+CONFIG = STD+WS-afs-nfs
+
+SITE   = CMUCS
+
+SOURCEDIR      = ${MASTERSOURCEDIR?${MASTERSOURCEDIR}:${SRCBASE}}
+
+#OBJECTDIR     = ../../../obj/@sys/kernel/${KERNEL_SERIES}
+OBJECTDIR      = ./obj
+
+#  XXX until build is fixed to set these  XXX
+ENVIRON_BASE   = ${RELEASE_BASE}
+
+.EXPORT: ENVIRON_BASE
+
+#  Provide for private customizations in a shadow directory
+-include Makeconf-local
diff -ruN sys/Makefile mach25-i386/Makefile
--- sys/Makefile        2016-08-08 14:37:11.000000000 +0800
+++ mach25-i386/Makefile        2019-06-24 15:24:49.000000000 +0800
@@ -206,6 +206,12 @@
 at386_cpu=i386
 sun4_cpu=sun4
 cpu=$(${machine}_cpu)
+#echo "CPU IS $cpu"
+AT386_cpu=i386
+I386_cpu=i386
+cpu=${${TARGET_MACHINE}_cpu?${${TARGET_MACHINE}_cpu}:${target_machine}}
+#echo "CPU IS $cpu"
+

 VAX_OUTPUT=Makefile
 SUN_OUTPUT=Makefile
diff -ruN sys/conf/newvers.sh mach25-i386/conf/newvers.sh
--- sys/conf/newvers.sh 2016-08-08 14:37:11.000000000 +0800
+++ mach25-i386/conf/newvers.sh 2019-06-24 15:25:15.000000000 +0800
@@ -56,8 +56,17 @@
 v="${major}.${minor}(${variant}${edit}${patch})" d=`pwd` h=`hostname` t=`date`
 CONFIG=`cat vers.config`
 if [ -z "$d" -o -z "$h" -o -z "$t" -o -z "${CONFIG}" ]; then
-    exit 1
+#    exit 1
+edit="386"
+major=5
+minor=1
+variant="I"
+patch="x"
+copyright="/copyright.txt"
+v="${major}.${minor}(${variant}${edit}${patch})" d=`pwd` h=`hostname` t=`date`
 fi
+#
+
 d=`expr "$d" : '.*/\([^/]*\)/[^/]*$'`/${CONFIG}
 (
   /bin/echo "int  version_major      = ${major};" ;
diff -ruN sys/i386/start.s mach25-i386/i386/start.s
--- sys/i386/start.s    2016-08-08 14:37:11.000000000 +0800
+++ mach25-i386/i386/start.s    2019-07-01 23:47:25.208021800 +0800
@@ -210,13 +210,14 @@

        lgdt    (%eax)

+       / flip cr3 before you flip cr0
+       mov     %edx, %cr3
+
        / turn PG on
        mov     %cr0, %eax
        or      $PAGEBIT, %eax
        mov     %eax, %cr0

-       mov     %edx, %cr3
-
        ljmp    $KTSSSEL, $0x0

 / *********************************************************************
diff -ruN sys/standi386at/boot/disk.c mach25-i386/standi386at/boot/disk.c
--- sys/standi386at/boot/disk.c 2016-08-08 14:37:11.000000000 +0800
+++ mach25-i386/standi386at/boot/disk.c 2019-07-01 23:51:11.261850100 +0800
@@ -340,11 +340,11 @@

 #ifndef        FIND_PART
        *rel_off = vp->part[part].p_start;
-       if (vp->part[part].p_tag != V_ROOT)
+       if (vp->part[part].p_flag != V_ROOT)
                printf("warning... partition %d not root\n", part);
 #else
        for (i = 0; i < vp->nparts; i++)
-               if (vp->part[i].p_tag == V_ROOT)
+               if (vp->part[i].p_flag == V_ROOT)
                        break;

        if (i == vp->nparts) {
------8<------8<------8<------8<
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From sauer at technologists.com  Tue Jul  2 03:48:31 2019
From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:48:31 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] reviving timbl's WorldWideWeb browser on NEXTSTEP 486 on
 Dell JAWS
Message-ID: <40cabc1d-8d71-0ad7-8661-3908371e7e81@technologists.com>

https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2019/07/01/koko-reviving-timbls-worldwideweb-browser/
While trying to get back to Dell UNIX Ethernet support in VirtualBox, I 
ended up reviving Tim’s CERN browser...

*July 1, 2019 -- *

    *tl;dr sustaining Dell UNIX
    <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/?p=1108>
           -> prolonging JAWS
    <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/?p=1135>
              -> exploring NEXTSTEP 486
    <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/?p=1146>
                 -> reviving timbl's
    <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/?p=1150>WorldWideWeb browser
    <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/?p=1150>*


  just *k*eepin' *o*n *k*eepin' *o*n permanent reference link
  <https://technologists.com/tidbits/tidbit190701.html>


pixel
"Genghis Khan and his brother Don
Could not *k*eep *o*n *k*eepin' *o*n"
(1971) "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" 
<https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00136RXKK/> - Bob Dylan



  

Charlie

--

voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail:sauer at technologists.com            
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web:https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

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From clemc at ccc.com  Tue Jul  2 04:58:13 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:58:13 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] reviving timbl's WorldWideWeb browser on NEXTSTEP 486 on
 Dell JAWS
In-Reply-To: <40cabc1d-8d71-0ad7-8661-3908371e7e81@technologists.com>
References: <40cabc1d-8d71-0ad7-8661-3908371e7e81@technologists.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NL5h89TUFtao-ymKZ063LdUw16EToZfTMv=7K6MmmZjg@mail.gmail.com>

Charlie -- very cool.

On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 1:55 PM Charles H Sauer <sauer at technologists.com>
wrote:

>
> https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2019/07/01/koko-reviving-timbls-worldwideweb-browser/
>
> While trying to get back to Dell UNIX Ethernet support in VirtualBox, I
> ended up reviving Tim’s CERN browser...
>
> *July 1, 2019 -- *
>
>
>
>
> *tl;dr sustaining Dell UNIX
> <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/?p=1108>       -> prolonging JAWS
> <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/?p=1135>          -> exploring
> NEXTSTEP 486 <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/?p=1146>             ->
> reviving timbl's <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/?p=1150>
> WorldWideWeb browser <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/?p=1150>*
>
>
> just *k*eepin' *o*n *k*eepin' *o*n  [image: permanent reference link]
> <https://technologists.com/tidbits/tidbit190701.html>
> [image: pixel]
> "Genghis Khan and his brother Don
> Could not *k*eep *o*n *k*eepin' *o*n"
> (1971) "You Ain't Goin' Nowhere" <https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B00136RXKK/>
> - Bob Dylan
>
>   Charlie
>
> --
>
> voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer at technologists.com
> fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
> Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer
>
>
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From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Jul  3 23:49:12 2019
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2019 13:49:12 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Mach 2.5 / MK35 booting on i386 (was CMU Mach sources?)
In-Reply-To: <ad598d12-f907-42ef-9cb8-8c47243276c5@PU1APC01FT004.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 (Jason Stevens's message of "Tue, 2 Jul 2019 01:40:23 +0800")
References: <ad598d12-f907-42ef-9cb8-8c47243276c5@PU1APC01FT004.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <7w36jn9qjr.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Jason Stevens wrote:
> ***** MK Version MK35 (rvb) *****

Speaking of which.  I have been trying without success to reach Robert
Baron (RVB) regarding his RMODE text editor.  I have tried email
addresses to CMU and U of Pittsburgh; does anyone know any other ways?

From prd at decarchive.org  Fri Jul  5 20:50:52 2019
From: prd at decarchive.org (Peter Dreisiger)
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 12:50:52 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Classic / NOP machines becoming available in Berlin (inc.
 DECs, Commodores, Apples, HPs, SGIs and more)
Message-ID: <5328A541-E9A1-4CD2-AAFC-827BDF40DBB5@decarchive.org>

Dear all,

Apologies for this semi-spam message from a long-time appreciator of classic computers and nostalgic obsolete products, but I hope this will be of interest to at least a few people here.

So, yes, by way of context, I've been acquiring what I consider to be characterful and/or historically interesting computers for coming up to, maybe, 15 years now, with the intention of being able to curate multiple, interactive temporary exhibits on the history of computing, but since moving continents (amongst other things), my paths and passions have changed, so I am currently in the process of re-testing (and repairing) my machines, and will be trying to sell them off in the coming weeks and months. Under different circumstances, finding people (or groups) with similar interests and plans would have been an equal-first priority, but given my more recent 'life changes', sale price — and the ability to better pursue my new focuses — is now more of a factor.

(That said, if you are (or know) a developer of an open source machine emulator who could use one of these machines --- particularly one of the more obscure ones --- please do get in touch, as the prospect of people being able to keep older / rarer operating systems and software running once the physical machines are not longer available or working /is/ actually still kinda important to me, and I'd be open to a lower price and/or setting up some remote access with some kind of kludged-together iLO and vaguely 'dual-ported' disk access via, e.g., an SD2SCSI setup.)

But before I list them on eBay (and/or by way of a heads up), I wanted to let people here know, just in case I have something that someone here particularly wants / needs / could use. The current list of systems I will be parting with is accessible at https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QqUrO11gnn4fwAPDxqO_phKDt1M0O15G7wJxHoQrL9s but some (hopefully) highlights include (*big breath*):


DEC: MicroPDP-11/53+; MicroVAX 2000; VAXstation 4000 VLC/60/90A/96; VAX 4000 100A, 105; DECstation 5000/240, 260 (MIPS-based); DEC 3000/300X; Personal Workstation 600au; AlphaServer 4100; AlphaServer DS20, DS25 systems; Letterwriter 100; VT 101, 220, 520 terminals
HP: HP rx2800 Integrity2; 9000 715/100 and Visualize C110 PA-RISC systems
SGI: Indy and O2 systems
SUN: ELC, SPARCstation Voyager (the portable one), 5 and 20; Ultra 1; Ultra 5; Netra T1-105; Enterprise T5240
Apple: IIc, IIe Platinums, IIgs; Mac 512ke, Mac Pluses; SE/30 and Quadra 700s (also for running A/UX); iMac G3s and a G4
Commodore: PET 3000 systems, PET 8032-SK; various C64 / C64C and 128D systems; SX-64; Music Maker keyboards (the big one, inc. SFX modules); Amiga 1000


Apologies again, please feel free to contact me with any queries or reasonable offers, or even if you'd just like to be kept in the loop as more machines become available, and all the best.

Thanks in advance,

Peter


P.S. In light of the responses I've received to posts I've made elsewhere, I've included a 'Default Reserve' price in the aforementioned spreadsheet. I've written more about this there, but the gist of it is that, given that very few of the more obscure / awesome machines have gone through eBay recently, it's kinda hard for me to gauge what a fair and reasonable (to me and the future buyers) price is for quite a few of my machines --- I've started to put in rough figures for /some/ of them based upon 'what feels right', but if there's nothing there, please don't ask me what I might want for them as I don't know yet (though do feel free to make me an offer). Thanks again!

From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue Jul  9 01:14:50 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 09:14:50 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Weird files in the archive
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqJ2f0jcUJO6_WdOE5Lfvv_+1oy0xQCBA+CfN0056Z6ww@mail.gmail.com>

Just sync my personal copy with the tuhs archive.

Looks like there are a lot of Mac preview files (that start with ._) mixed
in. Is that on purpose?

Warner
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From wkt at tuhs.org  Tue Jul  9 09:23:13 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 09:23:13 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Weird files in the archive
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqJ2f0jcUJO6_WdOE5Lfvv_+1oy0xQCBA+CfN0056Z6ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfqJ2f0jcUJO6_WdOE5Lfvv_+1oy0xQCBA+CfN0056Z6ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190708232313.GA10475@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:14:50AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
>    Just sync my personal copy with the tuhs archive.
>    Looks like there are a lot of Mac preview files (that start with ._)
>    mixed in. Is that on purpose?
>    Warner

No, I didn't see them. I've removed them from the archive on Minnie.

Thanks, Warren

From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Jul  9 10:53:16 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 10:53:16 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Testing...  Or, Why I Did It My Way (tm)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1906260938130.10033@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1906251116340.10033@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1906260938130.10033@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907091050290.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 26 Jun 2019, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> So, why isn't any traffic coming my way?  And for the smart-arses (ObUS: 
> smart-asses) out there who think I must be blocking it, nope, I watch my 
> mail reject log like a hawk (I have all sorts of reporting scripts) and 
> Minnie was definitely not there.

Well, it turned out that I *was* blocking Minnie, but her name was not in
the logs; it was just an IP address that ended up on my woodpecker list...

I just saw my first message from TUHS :-)

Sorry for the noise.

-- Dave

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Tue Jul  9 12:02:24 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 20:02:24 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Testing... Or, Why I Did It My Way (tm)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907091050290.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1906251116340.10033@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1906260938130.10033@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907091050290.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <08266000-6c22-5377-5d7e-8ec018322bbc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 7/8/19 6:53 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Well, it turned out that I *was* blocking Minnie, but her name was not in 
> the logs; it was just an IP address that ended up on my woodpecker list...

Oops!

> I just saw my first message from TUHS :-)
> 
> Sorry for the noise.

So you were truly channeling the the spirit of Unix.  Things 
occasionally break in an unexpected way, and then we fix them.  :-)

Welcome back.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From arnold at skeeve.com  Tue Jul  9 18:35:55 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 02:35:55 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Weird files in the archive
In-Reply-To: <20190708232313.GA10475@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <CANCZdfqJ2f0jcUJO6_WdOE5Lfvv_+1oy0xQCBA+CfN0056Z6ww@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190708232313.GA10475@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <201907090835.x698Zt8O030442@freefriends.org>

Hi.

Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 09:14:50AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> >    Just sync my personal copy with the tuhs archive.
> >    Looks like there are a lot of Mac preview files (that start with ._)
> >    mixed in. Is that on purpose?
> >    Warner
>
> No, I didn't see them. I've removed them from the archive on Minnie.
>
> Thanks, Warren

I still see a bunch under ./Distributions/Other/OS_Course after doing
rsync -avz ....

Or do I need to add something like --delete to my rsync flags?

Thanks,

Arnold

From mah at mhorton.net  Wed Jul 10 02:28:04 2019
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 09:28:04 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>

I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone for 
the great suggestions!

I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual serial 
tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). I even 
dug out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing BAT files 
(although the main script had a bad habit of exiting after the first 
file got copied). I wound up calling a 3 line script separately for each 
file to be copied over, and using PuTTY's scrolling history to save the 
files.

I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here:

http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/

I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this week.

Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" 
thing described here:

http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt

and produce the graphical map it contains?

     Mary Ann

On 6/23/19 4:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" 
> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have 
> historical interest.
>
> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not 
> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
>
> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. 
> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which 
> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which are 
> ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
>
> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims to 
> be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is or 
> what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based 
> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
>
> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just 
> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would 
> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 
> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have 
> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with 
> the GRF file.
>
> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones that 
> fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at least for 
> the early ASCII ones.
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann
>
>

From katolaz at freaknet.org  Wed Jul 10 02:53:35 2019
From: katolaz at freaknet.org (KatolaZ)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:53:35 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <20190709165335.xdfxsrmeq6uwtmy7@unixfarts.net>

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:28:04AM -0700, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone for the
> great suggestions!
> 
> I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual serial
> tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). I even dug
> out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing BAT files (although
> the main script had a bad habit of exiting after the first file got copied).
> I wound up calling a 3 line script separately for each file to be copied
> over, and using PuTTY's scrolling history to save the files.
> 
> I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here:
> 
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/
> 
> I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this week.
> 
> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" thing
> described here:
> 
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
> 
> and produce the graphical map it contains?
> 

Hi,

if nobody has a "leroy" at hand, I could give it a go using a slightly
more modern graph drawing stuff (starting from the same files). Just
shout.

HND

Enzo Nicosia

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[     "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[       @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[     @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
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From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 03:12:15 2019
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:12:15 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
> thing described here:
>
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>
> and produce the graphical map it contains?
>
>      Mary Ann
>

I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files
through it.  It ran without errors and produced a file to be fed to
plot(1G).  That file is attached; I can't figure out how to do anything
useful with it.  I ran it through the xterm Tek 4014 mode and just got
garbage.  I'm not really familiar with plot at all, so maybe someone else
can easily produce readable output from this file.

-Henry
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From web at loomcom.com  Wed Jul 10 03:25:44 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 10:25:44 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:
>> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" 
>>  thing described here:
>> 
>> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>> 
>>  and produce the graphical map it contains?
>> 
>>  Mary Ann
> 
> I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files through it. 

I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it.

-Seth
--
 Seth Morabito
 Poulsbo, WA
 web at loomcom.com


From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Jul 10 03:33:00 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:33:00 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OXsLksDTT1-2hLMNNyT37HfooBcW9nPJ9ZfSvqfBqi9Q@mail.gmail.com>

Henry - what did you try for your parameters to plot?  and did you try:  plot
-T png  which should create a more modern png file.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 1:13 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah at mhorton.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
>> thing described here:
>>
>> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>>
>> and produce the graphical map it contains?
>>
>>      Mary Ann
>>
>
> I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached files
> through it.  It ran without errors and produced a file to be fed to
> plot(1G).  That file is attached; I can't figure out how to do anything
> useful with it.  I ran it through the xterm Tek 4014 mode and just got
> garbage.  I'm not really familiar with plot at all, so maybe someone else
> can easily produce readable output from this file.
>
> -Henry
>
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From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 03:34:09 2019
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:34:09 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web at loomcom.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
> > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah at mhorton.net>
> wrote:
> >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
> >>  thing described here:
> >>
> >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
> >>
> >>  and produce the graphical map it contains?
> >>
> >>  Mary Ann
> >
> > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached
> files through it.
>
> I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen
> minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't
> mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it.
>

It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory:
https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz

It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of plot; from
the docs:
--
     The plot stream leroy emits is intended for,  and  must
be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter.  These filters
recognize a number of commands not included in  the  vanilla
seventh  edition  filters,  mostly  dealing with the Hershey
fonts.  The extended plot filters are upward compatible with
their  predecessors  and  have been implemented in a fashion
which makes tailoring new devices filters very  straightfor-
ward.   The  source  code  is available on request.  Filters
currently exist for the Tektronix 4014,  the  Versatec,  the
HP7221A, and the Qume.
--

-Henry
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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Wed Jul 10 04:29:26 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 14:29:26 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] groff_man question
Message-ID: <201907091829.x69ITQUX003027@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

I wouldn't call it an error, merely a misleading sentence. .EX/.EE is,
after all, an extension in Gnu, albeit not original to Gnu. And I
didn't intend to impugn anybody. The sentence, "Ingo Schwarze stated 
incorrectly" was apparently slipped into the quotation to provide 
missing context. I do appreciate, however, how quickly the 
inexactness was repaired.

Doug


| Doug McIlroy wrote on Mon, Jul 08, 2019 at 11:17:32PM -0400:
| > Ingo Schwarze stated incorrectly:
| 
| >>  EE  This is a non-standard GNU extension.  In mandoc(1), it does the
| >>      same as the roff(7) fi request (switch to fill mode).
| 
| >>
| >>  EX  This is a non-standard GNU extension.  In mandoc(1), it does the
| >>      same as the roff(7) nf request (switch to no-fill mode).
| 
| > "Gnu extension" should be read as "extension adopted by Gnu".
| > .EX/.EE was introduced in 9th Edition Unix.
| 
| Thank you for pointing out the error, i corrected the manual page
| in OpenBSD and in portable mandoc, see the commit below.

From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 05:19:05 2019
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:19:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:34, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web at loomcom.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
>> > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah at mhorton.net>
>> wrote:
>> >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy"
>> >>  thing described here:
>> >>
>> >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>> >>
>> >>  and produce the graphical map it contains?
>> >>
>> >>  Mary Ann
>> >
>> > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the attached
>> files through it.
>>
>> I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did about fifteen
>> minutes of searching online and was unable to find it. If you wouldn't
>> mind, could you share it with us? I'd enjoy playing with it.
>>
>
> It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory:
> https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz
>
> It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of plot; from
> the docs:
> --
>      The plot stream leroy emits is intended for,  and  must
> be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter.  These filters
> recognize a number of commands not included in  the  vanilla
> seventh  edition  filters,  mostly  dealing with the Hershey
> fonts.  The extended plot filters are upward compatible with
> their  predecessors  and  have been implemented in a fashion
> which makes tailoring new devices filters very  straightfor-
> ward.   The  source  code  is available on request.  Filters
> currently exist for the Tektronix 4014,  the  Versatec,  the
> HP7221A, and the Qume.
> --
>
> -Henry
>

I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to
running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that
UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 output
which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot.  Here are links to the
raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for this sort of
display.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing

-Henry
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From rich.salz at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 05:41:22 2019
From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Richard Salz)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:41:22 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFH29tqUibnJhkrQ7B3p-Y9Ft7KXu635oO+B29pEG7FGNc_RPA@mail.gmail.com>

I remember doing something similar for the "NNTP backbone," with the help
of Brian Reid and his mapmaking postscript tools.  I don't have any or data.
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From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Jul 10 06:08:07 2019
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 13:08:07 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] UREP
Message-ID: <40c8dad5e0198e3d@orthanc.ca>

Back in the day I had the pleasure of firing up what was possibly
the last North American BITNET node (certainly the last one on
NetNorth), on a Sun 3/xxx deskside server running SunOS 3.5(+).
(AUCS, at Athabasca U.)

I'm curious to know if the UREP source code that drove that link
ever escaped.  I recall it being licensed code at the time, but
from academia vs. a commercial product.  I don't know if that also
applied to the bisync serial driver.

--lyndon

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jul 10 06:09:18 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:09:18 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <09a59d65-861c-7f9c-7dad-3ecb4b2c26b6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 7/9/19 1:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
> I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to 
> running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that 
> UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014 
> output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot.  Here are 
> links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for 
> this sort of display.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing

Impressive.

Would you mind sharing the command sequence that you used?

I'm trying to piece things together that I've never messed with and 
learn along the way.

Please and thank you.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From mah at mhorton.net  Wed Jul 10 06:54:46 2019
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 13:54:46 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>

Thank you, Henry!

I was able to download the SVG and render it (mostly) legible for the 
map packet for the event tomorrow.

Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but 
it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.

http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/philabs.26972.txt

Thanks!

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 12:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:34, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com 
> <mailto:henry.r.bent at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 13:26, Seth Morabito <web at loomcom.com
>     <mailto:web at loomcom.com>> wrote:
>
>         On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, at 10:13 AM, Henry Bent wrote:
>         > On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 12:28, Mary Ann Horton Gmail
>         <mah at mhorton.net <mailto:mah at mhorton.net>> wrote:
>         >> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do
>         the "leroy"
>         >>  thing described here:
>         >>
>         >> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>         >>
>         >>  and produce the graphical map it contains?
>         >>
>         >>  Mary Ann
>         >
>         > I got as far as compiling leroy on 4.1C BSD and feeding the
>         attached files through it.
>
>         I'm impressed that you were able to find leroy! I just did
>         about fifteen minutes of searching online and was unable to
>         find it. If you wouldn't mind, could you share it with us? I'd
>         enjoy playing with it.
>
>
>     It's on the 1981 Usenix tape, in the ucol directory:
>     https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz
>
>     It looks like leroy produces output for an "extended" form of
>     plot; from the docs:
>     --
>          The plot stream leroy emits is intended for,  and  must
>     be directed to, an extended UNIX plot filter.  These filters
>     recognize a number of commands not included in  the  vanilla
>     seventh  edition  filters,  mostly  dealing with the Hershey
>     fonts.  The extended plot filters are upward compatible with
>     their  predecessors  and  have been implemented in a fashion
>     which makes tailoring new devices filters very  straightfor-
>     ward.   The  source  code  is available on request. Filters
>     currently exist for the Tektronix 4014,  the  Versatec,  the
>     HP7221A, and the Qume.
>     --
>
>     -Henry
>
> I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to 
> running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries 
> that UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 
> 4014 output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot.  Here 
> are links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most 
> useful for this sort of display.
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing
>
> -Henry
>
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From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 06:58:44 2019
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:58:44 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <09a59d65-861c-7f9c-7dad-3ecb4b2c26b6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <09a59d65-861c-7f9c-7dad-3ecb4b2c26b6@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBfZUiXKNbNWZXazGdFA9Cju=C9=jf5ueoTvpG2=2=oF-Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 16:10, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> On 7/9/19 1:19 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
> > I realized that UCol was using a PDP-11, not a VAX, so I switched to
> > running things under Ultrix 3.1. Using the extended plot libraries that
> > UCol provided on the usenix tape, I was able to get Tektronix 4014
> > output which I was able to run through a modern tek2plot.  Here are
> > links to the raw plot file and an SVG, which I think is most useful for
> > this sort of display.
> >
> >
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/19mdAYvjlAq7qp5KyJWQrgMwefOfq7XuC/view?usp=sharing
> >
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tX7Qclk-1V5BOrXWKP0bZouf6PoZ3KlK/view?usp=sharing
>
> Impressive.
>
> Would you mind sharing the command sequence that you used?
>
> I'm trying to piece things together that I've never messed with and
> learn along the way.
>
> Please and thank you.
>

My apologies, I am sometimes not as careful with documentation as I should
be.  I'm not up for transcribing every last command, but I can walk you
through the basic idea.  This assumes that you have extracted the necessary
files from http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt , which you
have to do by hand because this is before shar.

This was all done in SIMH, using a simulated PDP-11/70 running Ultrix 3.1,
but I believe that what I did would work just as well on 2.xBSD.  The 1981
Usenix tape (
https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_81.tar.gz )
was attached to a virtual TK-50 drive (SIMH can now attach .tar files
directly, with no conversion!) and extracted.  The "ucol" directory
contains the sources for leroy.  The first step is to rebuild the plot
library in leroy/plotsrc. Remove plib and *.o and run make, then back to
the leroy directory, clean and make.  The makefile installs /bin/leroy for
you after building.  Run "/bin/leroy < map.leroy" and it gives you
leroy.out, which is in the special extended plot format that UCol
developed.  You need to convert this to Tek 4014, and there is a program
for doing that in ucol/plot.  But first you have to build the modified
libt4014, which is in ucol/libplot.  "make lilbt4014.a" will get you what
you need there.  Back to ucol/plot, edit the makefile to use your newly
built libt4014 instead of the system's, clean out everything there and
build tek.  But wait!  You still need the Hershey fonts in the right place,
so move the contents of ucol/vroff to be /usr/src/cmd/vroff (or you could
modify the source to put it wherever you want, I guess).  Then finally you
can pipe leroy.out through tek to get a 4014 file, which will be readable
by a modern tek2plot.

-Henry
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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jul 10 07:30:55 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:30:55 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <df10e5e2-c502-d734-aac4-49b13ae5b94e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but 
> it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
> 
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/philabs.26972.txt

I don't think that file is all of what's needed.

I looked at it and saw the following:

>                                          …Also this news submission is broken
> into two articles, with the graph(1G) compatible stuff separated from that
> which is specific to leroy.
> 
> The files and descriptions of their contents are as follows:
> 
> First article:
> 	---		This message
> 	map.leroy	command file for leroy to plot map
> 	gmap.leroy	command file for leroy to plot map with gnodes file
> 	nodes		leroy commands to draw circles at site locations
> 	gnodes		leroy commands to draw graphic characters at site
> 				locations
> 	sites		leroy commands for labeling nodes with site names
> 
> Second article:
> 	usa.outline	USA outline (graph(1G) format)
> 	usa.states	USA state boundaries (graph(1G) format)
> 	net		news connections between sites (graph(1G) format)

As such, I think the usa.outline, usa.states, and net are missing.  :-(

I've not yet had a chance to look for articles in Usenet archives.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jul 10 07:35:00 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:35:00 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <df10e5e2-c502-d734-aac4-49b13ae5b94e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <df10e5e2-c502-d734-aac4-49b13ae5b94e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <5bfdd7ce-6e88-e87e-5676-2bc1f0b5aa7e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 7/9/19 3:30 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> I've not yet had a chance to look for articles in Usenet archives.

There's no time like the present.

https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die
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 7.966059 4.394570
 8.433739 3.336024 " "
 8.626170 .945343
 8.334976 1.431849 " "
 8.334976 1.431849
 8.087687 1.664854 " "
 7.627951 4.577392
 9.204741 5.422926 " "
 7.475740 4.155812
 8.952574 4.655355 " "
 7.475740 4.155812
 8.925034 4.749792 " "
 7.358524 4.731006
 7.309274 4.763224 " "
 7.309274 4.763224
 7.244139 4.693966 " "
 7.309274 4.763224
 7.514433 2.593533 " "
 7.280213 4.064082
 6.783412 4.135181 " "
 7.514433 2.593533
 8.470063 3.346065 " "
 7.251787 3.894594
 7.280213 4.064082 " "
 6.936560 4.003683
 6.783412 4.135181 " "
 6.936560 4.003683
 6.533918 4.420413 " "
 6.936560 4.003683
 6.472186 4.361235 " "
 6.896302 3.853611
 6.783412 4.135181 " "
 6.783412 4.135181
 6.567927 4.025799 " "
 6.608008 4.474391
 7.514433 2.593533 " "
 6.608008 4.474391
 6.593324 4.429585 " "
 6.593324 4.429585
 8.845405 4.645468 " "
 6.593324 4.429585
 6.580097 4.527484 " "
 6.593324 4.429585
 6.482959 4.412758 " "
 6.537933 4.520945
 6.547652 4.447491 " "
 6.533918 4.420413
 6.547652 4.447491 " "
 6.533918 4.420413
 5.613284 5.007120 " "
 6.513745 4.442332
 6.482959 4.412758 " "
 6.562074 4.029917
 6.567927 4.025799 " "
 6.482959 4.412758
 6.205330 3.602037 " "
 6.472186 4.361235
 6.608008 4.474391 " "
 6.472186 4.361235
 6.593324 4.429585 " "
 5.613284 5.007120
 5.596527 5.122371 " "
 5.502060 3.609040
 6.205330 3.602037 " "
 5.144769 2.092780
 6.567927 4.025799 " "
 5.142959 2.142861
 5.144769 2.092780 " "
 5.142959 2.142861
 5.022821 2.050523 " "
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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jul 10 07:37:29 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:37:29 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but 
> it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.

While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following 
articles:

Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
  - 
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ

Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
  - 
https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ

The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From beebe at math.utah.edu  Wed Jul 10 07:37:18 2019
From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:37:18 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] IEEE Computing Edge and Unix history
Message-ID: <CMM.0.96.0.1562708238.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>

Postal mail today brought me the latest issue of the IEEE Computing
Edge magazine, which presents short articles from other recent IEEE
publications.  In it, there is an article with numerous mentions of
Doug McIlroy, early Unix, software tools, and software modularization:

	Gerard J. Holzmann	
	Software Components
	IEEE Computing Edge 5(7) (July 2019) 38--40
	https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8354432

	[republished from IEEE Software 35(3) (May/June 2018) 80--82]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 07:46:35 2019
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:46:35 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but
> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
>
> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
> articles:
>
> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>   -
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>
> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>   -
>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>
> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
>
Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away.  Somehow
in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break
my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files
output.

-Henry
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From mah at mhorton.net  Wed Jul 10 08:01:20 2019
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:01:20 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net>

Thank you, Grant!

I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps.  I will 
add images from Henry as well.

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 2:37 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but 
>> it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
>
> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following 
> articles:
>
> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>  - 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>
> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>  - 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>
> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>
>
>

From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 08:02:35 2019
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:02:35 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but
>> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
>>
>> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
>> articles:
>>
>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>>   -
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>>
>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>>   -
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>>
>> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Grant. . . .
>> unix || die
>>
>>
> Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away.  Somehow
> in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break
> my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files
> output.
>
> -Henry
>
>
OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG form.
The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the gmap.leroy script,
seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing

I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, cluttered as
they are.  The nice thing about them being in a vector format, though, is
that you could blow them up to poster size if you wanted to.

-Henry
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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jul 10 08:44:52 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:44:52 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <11ba7ef8-a007-2349-5044-bae553019589@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 7/9/19 4:01 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> Thank you, Grant!

You're welcome.

> I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps.  I will 
> add images from Henry as well.

I'm doing some digging on this.  I'm curious to learn how the data gets 
used.  My intention, if possible, is to take the most recent data from 
the UUCP mapping project (currently September '98) and see if it's 
possible to build updated data sets to generate maps from.  }:-)

I'm guessing that the data from the #N, #O, and #L lines will help with 
this.  :-D

I do see multiple blank #L lines in the data I'm looking at.  Maybe it 
will be possible to extract something from the #P lines and convert it 
to pseudo #L lines that can be used.  }:-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From mah at mhorton.net  Wed Jul 10 09:14:33 2019
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:14:33 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <11ba7ef8-a007-2349-5044-bae553019589@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net>
 <11ba7ef8-a007-2349-5044-bae553019589@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <14fdf8e6-3e75-404b-29ec-ad93be2412ff@mhorton.net>

Well, my intent is to print a packet of Usenet maps to hand out at 
Wednesday night's 50th UNIX Anniversary event in Seattle. I have 15 
copies and a link to the PDF file on stargatemuseum.org. If possible, 
I'd like to add 1 or 2 or 3 of these graphical maps to the packet.

It would also be helpful to have an archived copy of the full UUCP map.  
Stan Barber sent me one some time ago but I misplaced it, and it's not 
coming to his fingertips either. That would obviously be a project for 
later, not a paper handout, but to save on the museum web site.

However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a Usenet 
map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece of paper :)

Thanks,

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 3:44 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/9/19 4:01 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> Thank you, Grant!
>
> You're welcome.
>
>> I have added these to the archive on stargatemuseum.org/maps.  I will 
>> add images from Henry as well.
>
> I'm doing some digging on this.  I'm curious to learn how the data 
> gets used.  My intention, if possible, is to take the most recent data 
> from the UUCP mapping project (currently September '98) and see if 
> it's possible to build updated data sets to generate maps from.  }:-)
>
> I'm guessing that the data from the #N, #O, and #L lines will help 
> with this.  :-D
>
> I do see multiple blank #L lines in the data I'm looking at. Maybe it 
> will be possible to extract something from the #P lines and convert it 
> to pseudo #L lines that can be used.  }:-)
>
>
>

From mah at mhorton.net  Wed Jul 10 09:23:01 2019
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:23:01 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>

Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake.

I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that the 
date in the map is September.  Would you please rerun that one? :)

The extra icons in the legend are nice!

Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall Brian 
Reid doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at one Usenix. I 
had such a poster, I was going to bring it this week but I can't find 
it. Now I know where he got his data...

Thanks,

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com 
> <mailto:henry.r.bent at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS
>     <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
>
>         On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>         > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks
>         smaller, but
>         > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
>
>         While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the
>         following
>         articles:
>
>         Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>           -
>         https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>
>         Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>           -
>         https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>
>         The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>
>
>
>         -- 
>         Grant. . . .
>         unix || die
>
>
>     Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away. 
>     Somehow in going back over what I used to build a working setup I
>     managed to break my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to
>     get the next set of files output.
>
>     -Henry
>
>
> OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG 
> form.  The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the 
> gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons.
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing
>
> I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, 
> cluttered as they are.  The nice thing about them being in a vector 
> format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster size if you 
> wanted to.
>
> -Henry
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From crossd at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 10:06:13 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:06:13 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>

Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Mary Ann, are
you in Renton right now?

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:23 PM Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah at mhorton.net>
wrote:

> Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake.
>
> I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that the date
> in the map is September.  Would you please rerun that one? :)
>
> The extra icons in the legend are nice!
>
> Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall Brian Reid
> doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at one Usenix. I had
> such a poster, I was going to bring it this week but I can't find it. Now I
> know where he got his data...
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Mary Ann
> On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
>
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>>> > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It looks smaller, but
>>> > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow better.
>>>
>>> While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found the following
>>> articles:
>>>
>>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>>>   -
>>>
>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>>>
>>> Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>>>   -
>>>
>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>>>
>>> The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Grant. . . .
>>> unix || die
>>>
>>>
>> Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working away.  Somehow
>> in going back over what I used to build a working setup I managed to break
>> my working setup, so I'm trying to fix that to get the next set of files
>> output.
>>
>> -Henry
>>
>>
> OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and SVG form.
> The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with the gmap.leroy script,
> seems to be the addition of a few graphical icons.
>
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing
>
> I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally, cluttered
> as they are.  The nice thing about them being in a vector format, though,
> is that you could blow them up to poster size if you wanted to.
>
> -Henry
>
>
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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jul 10 10:24:57 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:24:57 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <14fdf8e6-3e75-404b-29ec-ad93be2412ff@mhorton.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net>
 <11ba7ef8-a007-2349-5044-bae553019589@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <14fdf8e6-3e75-404b-29ec-ad93be2412ff@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <be7d3e5f-80f0-685d-cc53-77b019111da8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 7/9/19 5:14 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a Usenet 
> map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece of paper :)

Why do you say that?

Based on the raw data that I have, I'm showing 2151 #N lines in the map 
data that I'm looking at from '98.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Wed Jul 10 10:26:29 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:26:29 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system.
Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means.  OS & version, 
architecture, etc.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From mah at mhorton.net  Wed Jul 10 10:28:52 2019
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:28:52 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5d09495c-7f36-e20e-965d-b05a2105df85@mhorton.net>

Hi, Dan,

My plane gets into SeaTac at 11 AM Wed. I'm still at home and can still 
print these tonight.

Thanks,

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 5:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system. Mary Ann, 
> are you in Renton right now?
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:23 PM Mary Ann Horton Gmail <mah at mhorton.net 
> <mailto:mah at mhorton.net>> wrote:
>
>     Thanks, Henry, you found my mistake.
>
>     I've corrected the links to the Sept 1983 maps and verified that
>     the date in the map is September.  Would you please rerun that one? :)
>
>     The extra icons in the legend are nice!
>
>     Yes, I agree doing this on a plotter would be better. I recall
>     Brian Reid doing just that as a product demo of an HP plotter at
>     one Usenix. I had such a poster, I was going to bring it this week
>     but I can't find it. Now I know where he got his data...
>
>     Thanks,
>
>         Mary Ann
>
>     On 7/9/19 3:02 PM, Henry Bent wrote:
>>     On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:46, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:henry.r.bent at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 17:39, Grant Taylor via TUHS
>>         <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
>>
>>             On 7/9/19 2:54 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>>             > Any chance you could do the same for this file? It
>>             looks smaller, but
>>             > it's a couple weeks newer so it's possible it's somehow
>>             better.
>>
>>             While searching for the 2nd article for the May, I found
>>             the following
>>             articles:
>>
>>             Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 1 of 2
>>               -
>>             https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/ZoPcfdMPIzQ/pEPpCV6m77QJ
>>
>>             Link - Usenet graphic map of North America, part 2 of 2
>>               -
>>             https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=net.sources/cE_tkMNKZ_U/JoR7KGTJ_3YJ
>>
>>             The dates of these articles are September 21, 1983.
>>
>>
>>
>>             -- 
>>             Grant. . . .
>>             unix || die
>>
>>
>>         Thanks Grant, Mary Ann found what I needed and I'm working
>>         away.  Somehow in going back over what I used to build a
>>         working setup I managed to break my working setup, so I'm
>>         trying to fix that to get the next set of files output.
>>
>>         -Henry
>>
>>
>>     OK, here's the second set of Usenet maps, again in raw plot and
>>     SVG form.  The only difference with the "g" maps, produced with
>>     the gmap.leroy script, seems to be the addition of a few
>>     graphical icons.
>>
>>     https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y6PU1NJv8mdVr1SQsQUDnUjNlq6N2bvv/view?usp=sharing
>>     https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JpbMTzhmJD-amLCpYOWMPQCHyCsrC_ck/view?usp=sharing
>>     https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WRhiPTj1URUGNuxCh-8ERuK0FnQ_i1tk/view?usp=sharing
>>     https://drive.google.com/file/d/1plhCfaP1Uyxu5wAgtQEyPEA88r8JLHIW/view?usp=sharing
>>
>>     I'm pretty sure this is how they would have looked originally,
>>     cluttered as they are.  The nice thing about them being in a
>>     vector format, though, is that you could blow them up to poster
>>     size if you wanted to.
>>
>>     -Henry
>
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From crossd at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 10:38:05 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:38:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:26 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system.
> Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means.  OS & version,
> architecture, etc.
>

Sure; OpenBSD 6.5 on x86_64. I got a lot of warnings, but it produced an
executable that didn't immediately dump core when I ran it.

        - Dan C.
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From lm at mcvoy.com  Wed Jul 10 10:49:16 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:49:16 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:38:05PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:26 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> wrote:
> 
> > On 7/9/19 6:06 PM, Dan Cross wrote:
> > > Amazingly, I got `leroy` to build on a modern(ish) system.
> > Please elaborate on what a modern(ish) system means.  OS & version,
> > architecture, etc.
> >
> 
> Sure; OpenBSD 6.5 on x86_64. I got a lot of warnings, but it produced an
> executable that didn't immediately dump core when I ran it.

Old programs didn't ask a lot of the OS so it isn't surprising that it 
worked.  It's cool when it does though, reminds me of bringing up X11
back in the day.

From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Jul 10 10:57:19 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:57:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2O8OFtq2e7K7ph5G8jZQQvYN+C5coQVDhMf1fO48VgVMA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 8:49 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Old programs didn't ask a lot of the OS so it isn't surprising that it
> worked.

I'd modify that to say, that old programs often ask less of *the system* -
although they tend to have assumptions about the environment (like the
target processor) embedded/implied in the code.  I think the single
enhancement to C was adding strong typing and explicit typing in the
function calls.   By adding those two things to old code, I have brought
them forward.

Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the preprocessor
be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition without real
hacks.   And with what Warren and Phil did we even got pseudo C to compile
back on V0.


> It's cool when it does though,

Indeed - very cool.
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From krewat at kilonet.net  Wed Jul 10 11:02:50 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:02:50 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <2d89322e-c178-5abe-3906-de64b5058132@kilonet.net>

On 7/9/2019 8:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> reminds me of bringing up X11
> back in the day.
Oh boy, the output from that make, hoo-weee....



From mah at mhorton.net  Wed Jul 10 11:13:45 2019
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:13:45 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <be7d3e5f-80f0-685d-cc53-77b019111da8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
 <CAEdTPBcLginUW5m0pgD-VSgPEARJ+t2OT-yg=u91vuHv+yh3bg@mail.gmail.com>
 <bfcab0c2-cde4-4540-b155-59d8eb5758b6@www.fastmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcGjFN-=hmZwfyRSzXis95kK8sZXQ4zNDUF3ywJTg_bcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdKUUuNushJAEt_himoPf___kADN3ZEVir19LyQKwwODA@mail.gmail.com>
 <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <150a8f21-0408-0143-5170-0030654e25f6@mhorton.net>
 <11ba7ef8-a007-2349-5044-bae553019589@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <14fdf8e6-3e75-404b-29ec-ad93be2412ff@mhorton.net>
 <be7d3e5f-80f0-685d-cc53-77b019111da8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <0d3eb314-2d29-64a0-cfea-5468cc6d497a@mhorton.net>


On 7/9/19 5:24 PM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 7/9/19 5:14 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> However, doing a graphical map based on the UUCP map, or even a 
>> Usenet map after 1987, would likely produce a completely black piece 
>> of paper :)
>
> Why do you say that?
>
> Based on the raw data that I have, I'm showing 2151 #N lines in the 
> map data that I'm looking at from '98.
>
Well, there are 320 node names in the 3/83 graphic, and it's already 
bordering on illegible.  7 times as many, especially with the 
concentrations in NJ, Chicago, Boston, etc, it would have to be pretty 
creative.  The Shannon map of 7/84 had over 900 hosts (just on Usenet, 
not including UUCP only) and they divided it into 9 sections. I suspect 
there were a lot more than 2100 UUCP hosts at its peak.

I haven't had much luck doing searches on Google Groups - it often just 
gives me the first page and refuses to sort by date. Is there a good way 
to mine all the postings to a particular newsgroup, or all of them in a 
particular year?

     Mary Ann



From lm at mcvoy.com  Wed Jul 10 11:19:36 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 18:19:36 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <2d89322e-c178-5abe-3906-de64b5058132@kilonet.net>
References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
 <2d89322e-c178-5abe-3906-de64b5058132@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <20190710011936.GS12433@mcvoy.com>

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 09:02:50PM -0400, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> On 7/9/2019 8:49 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> >reminds me of bringing up X11
> >back in the day.
> Oh boy, the output from that make, hoo-weee....

Indeed.  Bringing up X11 when I knew nothing about graphics drivers was,
um, interesting.  It did teach me to just try #ifdef-ing out the code
that didn't work, sort of a prune the tree approach, that helped me
later in life.  Things don't have to be perfect, a working window
system that fails in some corner case I don't hit is better than
nothing by a long shot.

From wkt at tuhs.org  Wed Jul 10 11:26:46 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:26:46 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] V0 B Compiler
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2O8OFtq2e7K7ph5G8jZQQvYN+C5coQVDhMf1fO48VgVMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2O8OFtq2e7K7ph5G8jZQQvYN+C5coQVDhMf1fO48VgVMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:57:19PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>    Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the
>    preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition
>    without real hacks.   And with what Warren and Phil did we even got
>    pseudo C to compile back on V0.

Ah, I need to give credit where it's due here. Phil and I brought the V0
system back. Robert Swierczek brought the B compiler back.

Cheers, Warren

From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Jul 10 11:29:48 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:29:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] V0 B Compiler
In-Reply-To: <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2O8OFtq2e7K7ph5G8jZQQvYN+C5coQVDhMf1fO48VgVMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NqATbupajX_Ms7uAM08OP=OXnu27x4geJJ+kTG2H3B3g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks    Robert, sorry for the error ;-)

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:27 PM Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 09, 2019 at 08:57:19PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> >    Similarly, I have taken modern code and my careful use of the
> >    preprocessor be able to get it run on as far back as the 5th edition
> >    without real hacks.   And with what Warren and Phil did we even got
> >    pseudo C to compile back on V0.
>
> Ah, I need to give credit where it's due here. Phil and I brought the V0
> system back. Robert Swierczek brought the B compiler back.
>
> Cheers, Warren
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Jul 10 11:32:31 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NqATbupajX_Ms7uAM08OP=OXnu27x4geJJ+kTG2H3B3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2O8OFtq2e7K7ph5G8jZQQvYN+C5coQVDhMf1fO48VgVMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAC20D2NqATbupajX_Ms7uAM08OP=OXnu27x4geJJ+kTG2H3B3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OS=MzkfZreS5T8XkksHuwMp2d0jL=O68PuGzSxgC_ghA@mail.gmail.com>

Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version of
the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived?   I have googled around and
found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
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From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Jul 10 11:34:14 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 11:34:14 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Floppy to modern files for Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <20190710011936.GS12433@mcvoy.com>
References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
 <2d89322e-c178-5abe-3906-de64b5058132@kilonet.net>
 <20190710011936.GS12433@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907101128540.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:

> Indeed.  Bringing up X11 when I knew nothing about graphics drivers was, 
> um, interesting.  It did teach me to just try #ifdef-ing out the code 
> that didn't work, sort of a prune the tree approach, that helped me 
> later in life.  Things don't have to be perfect, a working window system 
> that fails in some corner case I don't hit is better than nothing by a 
> long shot.

Back in the 80s, our idiot of a manager just dumped an Xterm on us, 
expecting us to get it to work ASAP for a demo..

Oh the fun we had, seeing as our knowledge of "X" at the time was confined 
to knowing how to spell it...  I even told him that, and he wasn't amused 
:-)

-- Dave

From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 12:51:15 2019
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 19:51:15 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2OS=MzkfZreS5T8XkksHuwMp2d0jL=O68PuGzSxgC_ghA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2O8OFtq2e7K7ph5G8jZQQvYN+C5coQVDhMf1fO48VgVMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAC20D2NqATbupajX_Ms7uAM08OP=OXnu27x4geJJ+kTG2H3B3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2OS=MzkfZreS5T8XkksHuwMp2d0jL=O68PuGzSxgC_ghA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LRU5HTjQkhgWXJCtfqark2ceqGJGCq-H=+6Kp-mVOcsPw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version of
> the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived?   I have googled around and
> found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
>

I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it...

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7

-- Charles
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From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com  Wed Jul 10 13:00:52 2019
From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 20:00:52 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LRU5HTjQkhgWXJCtfqark2ceqGJGCq-H=+6Kp-mVOcsPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2O8OFtq2e7K7ph5G8jZQQvYN+C5coQVDhMf1fO48VgVMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAC20D2NqATbupajX_Ms7uAM08OP=OXnu27x4geJJ+kTG2H3B3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2OS=MzkfZreS5T8XkksHuwMp2d0jL=O68PuGzSxgC_ghA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANV78LRU5HTjQkhgWXJCtfqark2ceqGJGCq-H=+6Kp-mVOcsPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANV78LSD3Y7_VSc-UQYQDUJ2YKkwidqwSSCHcYtXKQLiZvLpmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 7:51 PM Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version
>> of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived?   I have googled around and
>> found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
>>
>
> I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it...
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7
>
>
I found it at bitsavers:

http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/

-- Charles
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From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Jul 10 13:01:09 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 23:01:09 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
In-Reply-To: <CANV78LRU5HTjQkhgWXJCtfqark2ceqGJGCq-H=+6Kp-mVOcsPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <30de4da1-be33-b546-a277-37afe5632e6e@mhorton.net>
 <ecd73119-45fa-7108-d59c-6833e4e0dabc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEdTPBe8fmw9kyUcAxte1oQzWQ6830+7M9NuR5EN-_HQcm59Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBcOk+vYnYO8RgVF941cjxfqjBnDs1400XbmYSk+FK_bcA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5cb16efc-4c88-9750-a5d0-2ef20dd79746@mhorton.net>
 <CAEoi9W4Fj9qEXwsFwYsW75Z8+cr+P00oWQRO-1g9j30TWo9Rrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <d69a0589-ad8f-a319-632b-405e5a4fc06c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAEoi9W5SKePbZqVZ5G7Dh=jQHZvTDZGFp_1m-+kKf7A7fSf10A@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710004916.GP12433@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2O8OFtq2e7K7ph5G8jZQQvYN+C5coQVDhMf1fO48VgVMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190710012646.GA5723@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAC20D2NqATbupajX_Ms7uAM08OP=OXnu27x4geJJ+kTG2H3B3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2OS=MzkfZreS5T8XkksHuwMp2d0jL=O68PuGzSxgC_ghA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANV78LRU5HTjQkhgWXJCtfqark2ceqGJGCq-H=+6Kp-mVOcsPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2O3Hq6tO3KRV8gdqq61=bKy=s7k8CnhdFXcpco5qCM40Q@mail.gmail.com>

Cool many thanks.

FYI: it's a great start.  It just the Terminal Control System part, there
was about 5 or 6 subsystems, IIRC.  That's a fairly early version (1974)
also, since its Fortran-IV.   Later versions in the late 70's/early 80s
were in MORTRAN, BTW.  I remember an internal argument of the folks in the
terminal group about if Plot 10's GKS system should be done in C - but
FORTRAN still rules the day so, MORTRAN was the compromise.

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 10:51 PM Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 6:33 PM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> Mark's looking at plot got me thinking, does anyone know if any version
>> of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived?   I have googled around and
>> found a few manuals, but never the (Fortran) code itself.
>>
>
> I have a copy, but I don't remember where I found it...
>
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cpZvaNXa5v_0wrZfvJ-apWRdUqhvoNg7
>
> -- Charles
>
>
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From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Jul 10 14:03:42 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 22:03:42 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpr=52yiSABT9S0p8UJpTincz4T_ebE7pT=2zcHR7jggg@mail.gmail.com>

In honor of the Unix 50 party tomorrow, I wrote an analysis of the
available data to conclude the first PDP-7 that Ken and Dennis used to
bring up Unix on was serial number 34. I've not seen this result elsewhere,
but if it's common place, please let me know.

https://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2019/07/the-pdp-7-where-unix-began.html

One surprise from the analysis: there was only one pdp-7 in the world that
could have run the original v0 unix. It's the only one that had the RB09
hard drive (though the asset list referenced in the article listed a RC09
on that system).

I hope you enjoy

Warner
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From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Jul 10 15:14:59 2019
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 05:14:59 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpr=52yiSABT9S0p8UJpTincz4T_ebE7pT=2zcHR7jggg@mail.gmail.com>
 (Warner Losh's message of "Tue, 9 Jul 2019 22:03:42 -0600")
References: <CANCZdfpr=52yiSABT9S0p8UJpTincz4T_ebE7pT=2zcHR7jggg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7wmuhm4gj0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Warner Losh wrote:
> I hope you enjoy

I enjoyed it very much.  Thanks!

From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Jul 10 15:34:49 2019
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 05:34:49 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix
In-Reply-To: <7wmuhm4gj0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff's message of
 "Wed, 10 Jul 2019 05:14:59 +0000")
References: <CANCZdfpr=52yiSABT9S0p8UJpTincz4T_ebE7pT=2zcHR7jggg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wmuhm4gj0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <7wimsa4fly.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

I see PDP-7 #34 also had these options:

340 Precision incremental CRT display
342 Symbol generator for 340 display, first 64 characters
370 High speed light pen

Was this the display used for Space Travel?

These hardware devices are all supported by Phil Budne's 340 simulation
in SIMH, so if the software was to be found it could probably be run.

From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Jul 10 15:44:47 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 23:44:47 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] UREP
In-Reply-To: <40c8dad5e0198e3d@orthanc.ca>
References: <40c8dad5e0198e3d@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <201907100544.x6A5ilIN020551@freefriends.org>

Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca> wrote:

> Back in the day I had the pleasure of firing up what was possibly
> the last North American BITNET node (certainly the last one on
> NetNorth), on a Sun 3/xxx deskside server running SunOS 3.5(+).
> (AUCS, at Athabasca U.)
>
> I'm curious to know if the UREP source code that drove that link
> ever escaped.  I recall it being licensed code at the time, but
> from academia vs. a commercial product.  I don't know if that also
> applied to the bisync serial driver.
>
> --lyndon

You don't want to see the source code. We ran it at Emory, and I
remember that I had to work with it, and after every dive into the
code, I felt like I needed a shower afterwards.

I don't remember the details, only the strong associated emotions. :-(

Arnold

From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Jul 10 16:05:16 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 00:05:16 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix
In-Reply-To: <7wimsa4fly.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <CANCZdfpr=52yiSABT9S0p8UJpTincz4T_ebE7pT=2zcHR7jggg@mail.gmail.com>
 <7wmuhm4gj0.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wimsa4fly.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfped-jCqgu+yDJDC_oPVcJ9-ouRxdyrBrqXbRRE6M9NSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019, 11:34 PM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:

> I see PDP-7 #34 also had these options:
>
> 340 Precision incremental CRT display
> 342 Symbol generator for 340 display, first 64 characters
> 370 High speed light pen
>
> Was this the display used for Space Travel?


That's my belief given how the story was told in the history. But the
histories I've read weren't specific as to whether the stock display was
used or the custom one was.

These hardware devices are all supported by Phil Budne's 340 simulation
> in SIMH, so if the software was to be found it could probably be run.
>

That's true. The simh machine emulates both, so it wouldn't matter. And
we'd be able to know which one was used... I've not seen the code for this,
though...

Warner

>
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From beebe at math.utah.edu  Wed Jul 10 22:51:04 2019
From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 06:51:04 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2OS=MzkfZreS5T8XkksHuwMp2d0jL=O68PuGzSxgC_ghA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CMM.0.96.0.1562763064.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>

Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> asks on Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400:

>> does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? 

In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science, later
science.utah.edu (a domain now owned by our Dean's office), I find
these files:

    % ls -log
    total 3768
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  145899 May 16  1985 agii.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  245190 May 16  1985 ezgr27.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1 2132822 May 16  1985 igl.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  289730 May 16  1985 p4663.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  129276 May 16  1985 p4663.ver
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  149038 May 16  1985 ploter.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1  210033 May 16  1985 plt10.for
    -rw-rw-r-- 1     470 May 16  1985 plt10t.for

    % wc -l *
       1815 agii.for
       7251 ezgr27.for
      26011 igl.for
       3577 p4663.for
       1596 p4663.ver
       1845 ploter.for
       2763 plt10.for
	 27 plt10t.for
      44885 total

    % head -16 agii.for
    C***********************************************************************00000010
    C*                                                                     *00000020
    C*                4010A02 PLOT 10 ADVANCED GRAPHING II                 *00000030
    C*                                LEVEL 1                              *00000040
    C*                                                                     *00000050
    C*         062-2948-01 STD. SOURCE CARD DECK, 026 PUNCH                *00000060
    C*         062-2949-01 STD. SOURCE LISTING                             *00000070
    C*                                                                     *00000080
    C*            C  COPYRIGHT 1976 TEKTRONIX, INC.                        *00000090
    C*               ALL RIGHTS RESERVED                                   *00000100
    C*                                                                     *00000110
    C*               TEKTRONIX, INC.                                       *00000120
    C*               P. O. BOX 500                                         *00000130
    C*               BEAVERTON, OREGON 97077                               *00000140
    C*                                                                     *00000150
    C***********************************************************************00000160

The Bitsavers code at

    http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/plot10.ftn

has a 1974 copyright date, so our code is two years newer.

The question is, what is the copyright status of this code?  Has
Tektronix (https://www.tek.com/) made any statements about releasing
it to the public?

I no longer remember the conditions under which we got the PLOT 10
code, and any licensing paperwork has long since gone to recycling.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Jul 11 00:34:26 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 07:34:26 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.96.0.1562763064.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
References: <CMM.0.96.0.1562763064.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <6FE9B972-531A-461D-B1F8-727CF1B0C277@ccc.com>

Nelson.  Good question. The status is unknown last I knew.  I’ve personally lost track of anyone at Tek that might have able to help.  

Also your version seems to be pure FORTRAN-IV not the mortran sources.  Part of my question is I’m not sure if they shipped the pre or post processed version.  Somebody like Ed Post (of the old “Real Programmers don’t write Pascal, they use FORTRAN”) might remember. 

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Jul 10, 2019, at 5:51 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe <beebe at math.utah.edu> wrote:
> 
> Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> asks on Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:32:31 -0400:
> 
>>> does anyone know if any version of the Tektronix Plot 10 sources has survived? 
> 
> In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science, later
> science.utah.edu (a domain now owned by our Dean's office), I find
> these files:
> 
>    % ls -log
>    total 3768
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  145899 May 16  1985 agii.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  245190 May 16  1985 ezgr27.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1 2132822 May 16  1985 igl.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  289730 May 16  1985 p4663.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  129276 May 16  1985 p4663.ver
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  149038 May 16  1985 ploter.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1  210033 May 16  1985 plt10.for
>    -rw-rw-r-- 1     470 May 16  1985 plt10t.for
> 
>    % wc -l *
>       1815 agii.for
>       7251 ezgr27.for
>      26011 igl.for
>       3577 p4663.for
>       1596 p4663.ver
>       1845 ploter.for
>       2763 plt10.for
>     27 plt10t.for
>      44885 total
> 
>    % head -16 agii.for
>    C***********************************************************************00000010
>    C*                                                                     *00000020
>    C*                4010A02 PLOT 10 ADVANCED GRAPHING II                 *00000030
>    C*                                LEVEL 1                              *00000040
>    C*                                                                     *00000050
>    C*         062-2948-01 STD. SOURCE CARD DECK, 026 PUNCH                *00000060
>    C*         062-2949-01 STD. SOURCE LISTING                             *00000070
>    C*                                                                     *00000080
>    C*            C  COPYRIGHT 1976 TEKTRONIX, INC.                        *00000090
>    C*               ALL RIGHTS RESERVED                                   *00000100
>    C*                                                                     *00000110
>    C*               TEKTRONIX, INC.                                       *00000120
>    C*               P. O. BOX 500                                         *00000130
>    C*               BEAVERTON, OREGON 97077                               *00000140
>    C*                                                                     *00000150
>    C***********************************************************************00000160
> 
> The Bitsavers code at
> 
>    http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/PLOT_10/TCS_3.0/plot10.ftn
> 
> has a 1974 copyright date, so our code is two years newer.
> 
> The question is, what is the copyright status of this code?  Has
> Tektronix (https://www.tek.com/) made any statements about releasing
> it to the public?
> 
> I no longer remember the conditions under which we got the PLOT 10
> code, and any licensing paperwork has long since gone to recycling.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
> - University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Jul 11 02:38:35 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:38:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
Message-ID: <20190710163835.6885318C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"

    > In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science .. I find
    > these files:

Thanks very much for doing that search, and congratulations on finding them!

Not that I have the slightest interest/use in the results, but it's so good to
see historical software being saved.

    Noel

From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Jul 11 03:05:26 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:05:26 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Plot 10 Sources
In-Reply-To: <20190710163835.6885318C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190710163835.6885318C0E2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2P-rUcGDsaBiEKn_CNJxYGiqt-FmvGOzoiZJd6kgwthxA@mail.gmail.com>

+1  Thank you

On Wed, Jul 10, 2019 at 12:39 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: "Nelson H. F. Beebe"
>
>     > In our PDP-10 TOPS-20 archive of what was then utah-science .. I find
>     > these files:
>
> Thanks very much for doing that search, and congratulations on finding
> them!
>
> Not that I have the slightest interest/use in the results, but it's so
> good to
> see historical software being saved.
>
>     Noel
>
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From athornton at gmail.com  Thu Jul 11 05:31:59 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 12:31:59 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] UREP
In-Reply-To: <201907100544.x6A5ilIN020551@freefriends.org>
References: <40c8dad5e0198e3d@orthanc.ca>
 <201907100544.x6A5ilIN020551@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CBA8FC8B-7790-4BCD-81CD-5B7971B1BE6E@gmail.com>

I have sort-of resurrected the bitnet zone file.

SInce bitnet is not an official TLD you will need to specify the nameserver, since the root won’t forward it.

So, grab a copy with:

 dig IN AXFR bitnet @ns.fsf.net

Note that the old zone file had underscores in the hostnames.  Anywhere you see a dash here, it should be an underscore to be the correct bitnet name.

bit.net <http://bit.net/> is still alive (from the IP address it’s still a machine at Princeton) serving a document explaining the bitnet history.

Adam
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From thomas.paulsen at firemail.de  Thu Jul 11 19:00:25 2019
From: thomas.paulsen at firemail.de (Thomas Paulsen)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 11:00:25 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpr=52yiSABT9S0p8UJpTincz4T_ebE7pT=2zcHR7jggg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfpr=52yiSABT9S0p8UJpTincz4T_ebE7pT=2zcHR7jggg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <90b52a4cbf841f64fab0f7cafd4d3640@firemail.de>


--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
Von: Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com>
Datum: 10.07.2019 06:03:42
An: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
Betreff: [TUHS] The first PDP-7 running Unix

> In honor of the Unix 50 party tomorrow, I wrote an analysis of the
> available data to conclude the first PDP-7 that Ken and Dennis used to
> bring up Unix on was serial number 34. I've not seen this result elsewhere,
>
> but if it's common place, please let me know.
>
> https://bsdimp.blogspot.com/2019/07/the-pdp-7-where-unix-began.html
>
> One surprise from the analysis: there was only one pdp-7 in the world that
>
> could have run the original v0 unix. It's the only one that had the RB09
>
> hard drive (though the asset list referenced in the article listed a RC09
>
> on that system).
>
> I hope you enjoy
>
> Warner
>



From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Fri Jul 12 00:53:02 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:53:02 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
Message-ID: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?

While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC…
Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris
HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?

Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing through some
strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from
Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to have been some
platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say
building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure
its stable enough. 
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From arnold at skeeve.com  Fri Jul 12 01:12:01 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:12:01 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <201907111512.x6BFC1JE013584@freefriends.org>

Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>
> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that
> everything was built with GCC… Was there a PCC for the i386 around
> ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris HCX-9
> that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?

I'm pretty sure that from Tahoe on UCB just used GCC. The PCC based
compiler for i386 was available on System V ports, but by then
UCB wasn't using code from AT&T.

You can get a modernized PCC from

	http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/

(CVS) or my git mirror at https://github.com/arnoldrobbins/pcc-revived.

HTH,

Arnold

From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Jul 12 01:37:21 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:37:21 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>

I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the PCC2 work.  

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>  
> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC…
> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris
> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?
>  
> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing through some
> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from
> Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to have been some
> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say
> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure
> its stable enough.
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Fri Jul 12 01:50:29 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 15:50:29 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>

That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here




http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/




I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the labs? 




Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the era. 











On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:










I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the PCC2 work.  

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 
On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:



Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?

 

While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC…

Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris

HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?

 

Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing through some

strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from

Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to have been some

platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say

building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure

its stable enough. 




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From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Jul 12 02:30:44 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 09:30:44 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>

By the time of 4.2 the switch from the  Ritchie and Johnson compilers at UCB had begun.  Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs and gcc.    

CSRG wanted the different backends for C.   ThAts it.  Besides the vax, Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then.  

With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract summit supplied the compiler

I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done before rms did his.  He was compatible with the summit assembler.  I don’t remember who’s 386 backend came out first.  I think is was the summit compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have. 

Clem

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
> 
> That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here
> 
> http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/
> 
> I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the labs? 
> 
> Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the era. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
>> I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the PCC2 work.  
>> 
>> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 
>> 
>>> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>>>  
>>> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that everything was built with GCC…
>>> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris
>>> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?
>>>  
>>> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing through some
>>> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some bits from
>>> Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to have been some
>>> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead of say
>>> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make sure
>>> its stable enough.
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From rich.salz at gmail.com  Fri Jul 12 02:42:04 2019
From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Richard Salz)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:42:04 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
Message-ID: <CAFH29toYhdV8iQ3Mox8Th0Gg7SM-FOCmm034Jxq-XpwR+4aXBA@mail.gmail.com>

> I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been
> further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the
> labs?
>
>
John Gilmore, with CSRG help and "blessing" led a major effort to get GCC
to build all of BSD.  As I recall, he found bugs in GCC and undefined
features being used in CSRG source.
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From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Jul 12 02:48:16 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 10:48:16 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrYFuh0XQUBdMU3=E29Wz_Lq9ycJBU5NfOt92Sy1qULfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> By the time of 4.2 the switch from the  Ritchie and Johnson compilers at
> UCB had begun.  Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs
> and gcc.
>
> CSRG wanted the different backends for C.   ThAts it.  Besides the vax,
> Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then.
>
> With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive
> Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an
> Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually
> released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract
> summit supplied the compiler
>
> I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done
> before rms did his.  He was compatible with the summit assembler.  I don’t
> remember who’s 386 backend came out first.  I think is was the summit
> compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have.
>

There's also a fair amount of work at MIT to do Intel code generation for
8086 (small mode) that was extended by Queens College London (I think, I
gotta grab the tapes again) to do large mode. I've run into this looking
for a compiler for the Venix source restoration project I've been tilting
at. I found those based on a cryptic comment I found somewhere online about
the tech behind Venix that wasn't from AT&T. I don't know if ISC started
with them as a base or not, nor really how the MIT compilers came about,
but they claim to be PCC based somehow. Don't know if this helps you on
your quest... BTW, I found these when I found the latest pcc-restoration
sources didn't have a working i86 backend anymore (there was once one for
Minux, but when I built it I couldn't get it to generate sensible code at
all).

Warner


> Clem
>
> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not
> quite.
>
> On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com>
> wrote:
>
> That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here
>
> http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/
>
> I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been
> further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the
> labs?
>
> Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the
> era.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the
>> PCC2 work.
>>
>> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not
>> quite.
>>
>> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <
>> jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>>
>>
>>
>> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that
>> everything was built with GCC…
>>
>> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid
>> demise of the Tahoe/Harris
>>
>> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?
>>
>>
>>
>> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing
>> through some
>>
>> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some
>> bits from
>>
>> Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to
>> have been some
>>
>> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead
>> of say
>>
>> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make
>> sure
>>
>> its stable enough.
>>
>>
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From a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com  Fri Jul 12 02:50:27 2019
From: a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com (A. P. Garcia)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:50:27 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
Message-ID: <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

<snip>
>
> With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract summit supplied the compiler
>
<snip>

Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...

From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Jul 12 02:54:51 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 12:54:51 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2N4M68+rK2vrOnQBqiqNzHw1CDYDDMKqzmeAHSiUZZ4_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:50 PM A. P. Garcia <a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >
> > With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive
> Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an
> Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually
> released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract
> summit supplied the compiler
> >
> <snip>
>
> Did Sun have anything to do with that?

No...



> I seem to recall something
> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...

Much later in time... that was post SVR3 and SVR4
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From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Jul 12 03:05:31 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:05:31 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrYFuh0XQUBdMU3=E29Wz_Lq9ycJBU5NfOt92Sy1qULfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CANCZdfrYFuh0XQUBdMU3=E29Wz_Lq9ycJBU5NfOt92Sy1qULfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MQ-castDpjCzJvKc5po322AQTF8g=2zgumdfywta8z+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Yup, that was Steve Ward's folks in the MIT/RTS group - it was the NU
computer work.  John Siber did most of the compiler work (funny, Steve
Johnson and I were talking about some of that work last night at the UNIX50
party last night).  tjt wrote the 68K assembler ward's folks used.  I don't
remember where the Z8000 assembler came, but I'm petty sure that the Intel
assembler and some of the tools other John had brought back from his
summers in MH.

I think (but don't know for sure) the Intel 8086 assembler was done at AT&T
first.  IIRC it may have come out of Dale's group in Columbus.   I do know
Dale's group had done a Z80 C Compiler using the Ritchie Compiler at some
point in 1978 timeframe (and at one time I had, but can not seem to find
it, in my archives).

When Intel released the 386, I believe the AT&T 8086 assembler was updated
for the new 32 instructions; although who did that/where was done, I'm not
sure.

Steve is probably the best source for most of this as he managed the team
in Summit doing the different AT&T front and back ends when they tried to
centralize the compiler work for UNIX.

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:48 PM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> By the time of 4.2 the switch from the  Ritchie and Johnson compilers at
>> UCB had begun.  Remember the primary output of Rms at that point was emacs
>> and gcc.
>>
>> CSRG wanted the different backends for C.   ThAts it.  Besides the vax,
>> Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then.
>>
>> With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid Interactive
>> Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 386 ps/2 and an
>> Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This would be eventually
>> released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As part of the contract
>> summit supplied the compiler
>>
>> I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel was done
>> before rms did his.  He was compatible with the summit assembler.  I don’t
>> remember who’s 386 backend came out first.  I think is was the summit
>> compiler but you needed a system v license which UCB did not have.
>>
>
> There's also a fair amount of work at MIT to do Intel code generation for
> 8086 (small mode) that was extended by Queens College London (I think, I
> gotta grab the tapes again) to do large mode. I've run into this looking
> for a compiler for the Venix source restoration project I've been tilting
> at. I found those based on a cryptic comment I found somewhere online about
> the tech behind Venix that wasn't from AT&T. I don't know if ISC started
> with them as a base or not, nor really how the MIT compilers came about,
> but they claim to be PCC based somehow. Don't know if this helps you on
> your quest... BTW, I found these when I found the latest pcc-restoration
> sources didn't have a working i86 backend anymore (there was once one for
> Minux, but when I built it I couldn't get it to generate sensible code at
> all).
>
> Warner
>
>
>> Clem
>>
>> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not
>> quite.
>>
>> On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens <
>> jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
>>
>> That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here
>>
>> http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/
>>
>> I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must have been
>> further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't available outside of the
>> labs?
>>
>> Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c compilers of the
>> era.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole" <clemc at ccc.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at Summit with the
>>> PCC2 work.
>>>
>>> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not
>>> quite.
>>>
>>> On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens <
>>> jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it seems that
>>> everything was built with GCC…
>>>
>>> Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems after the rapid
>>> demise of the Tahoe/Harris
>>>
>>> HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve been tracing
>>> through some
>>>
>>> strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to include some
>>> bits from
>>>
>>> Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine there ought to
>>> have been some
>>>
>>> platform exercise code to make sure things were actually working instead
>>> of say
>>>
>>> building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few hours to make
>>> sure
>>>
>>> its stable enough.
>>>
>>>
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From sauer at technologists.com  Fri Jul 12 05:39:48 2019
From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:39:48 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MQ-castDpjCzJvKc5po322AQTF8g=2zgumdfywta8z+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CANCZdfrYFuh0XQUBdMU3=E29Wz_Lq9ycJBU5NfOt92Sy1qULfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2MQ-castDpjCzJvKc5po322AQTF8g=2zgumdfywta8z+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bb93a96b-4c05-7036-0540-95e1ae596f96@technologists.com>

Dell SVR4 included both pcc & gcc. gcc was used to build the system.

I think Richard Wirt's group at Intel contributed to optimization for 
486, IIRC, probably for gcc, possibly for pcc.

I assume AIX/386 used pcc, but Clem likely knows for sure.

Charlie

On 7/11/2019 12:05 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Yup, that was Steve Ward's folks in the MIT/RTS group - it was the NU 
> computer work.  John Siber did most of the compiler work (funny, Steve 
> Johnson and I were talking about some of that work last night at the 
> UNIX50 party last night).  tjt wrote the 68K assembler ward's folks 
> used.  I don't remember where the Z8000 assembler came, but I'm petty 
> sure that the Intel assembler and some of the tools other John had 
> brought back from his summers in MH.
> 
> I think (but don't know for sure) the Intel 8086 assembler was done at 
> AT&T first.  IIRC it may have come out of Dale's group in Columbus.   I 
> do know Dale's group had done a Z80 C Compiler using the Ritchie 
> Compiler at some point in 1978 timeframe (and at one time I had, but can 
> not seem to find it, in my archives).
> 
> When Intel released the 386, I believe the AT&T 8086 assembler was 
> updated for the new 32 instructions; although who did that/where was 
> done, I'm not sure.
> 
> Steve is probably the best source for most of this as he managed the 
> team in Summit doing the different AT&T front and back ends when they 
> tried to centralize the compiler work for UNIX.
> 
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:48 PM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com 
> <mailto:imp at bsdimp.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>     On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 10:31 AM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com
>     <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>> wrote:
> 
>         By the time of 4.2 the switch from the  Ritchie and Johnson
>         compilers at UCB had begun.  Remember the primary output of Rms
>         at that point was emacs and gcc.
> 
>         CSRG wanted the different backends for C.   ThAts it.  Besides
>         the vax, Rms had done 68000 and 386 back ends then.
> 
>         With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid
>         Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code
>         to a 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA
>         bus.  This would be eventually released in source at the 386
>         port from AT&T.   As part of the contract summit supplied the
>         compiler
> 
>         I know the AT&T assembler with it’s backwards syntax from Intel
>         was done before rms did his.  He was compatible with the summit
>         assembler.  I don’t remember who’s 386 backend came out first. 
>         I think is was the summit compiler but you needed a system v
>         license which UCB did not have. 
> 
> 
>     There's also a fair amount of work at MIT to do Intel code
>     generation for 8086 (small mode) that was extended by Queens College
>     London (I think, I gotta grab the tapes again) to do large mode.
>     I've run into this looking for a compiler for the Venix source
>     restoration project I've been tilting at. I found those based on a
>     cryptic comment I found somewhere online about the tech behind Venix
>     that wasn't from AT&T. I don't know if ISC started with them as a
>     base or not, nor really how the MIT compilers came about, but they
>     claim to be PCC based somehow. Don't know if this helps you on your
>     quest... BTW, I found these when I found the latest pcc-restoration
>     sources didn't have a working i86 backend anymore (there was once
>     one for Minux, but when I built it I couldn't get it to generate
>     sensible code at all).
> 
>     Warner
> 
>         Clem
> 
>         Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost
>         but not quite.
> 
>         On Jul 11, 2019, at 8:50 AM, Jason Stevens
>         <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com
>         <mailto:jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com>> wrote:
> 
>>         That would make sense.   I was able to find some info on PCC2 here
>>
>>         http://doc.cat-v.org/unix/unix-before-berkeley/
>>
>>         I'm guessing along with the adoption of emacs the csrg must
>>         have been further gnu synergy...  Or maybe PCC2 just wasn't
>>         available outside of the labs?
>>
>>         Or maybe by '88 gcc was already usurping many of the c
>>         compilers of the era.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:37 PM +0800, "Clem cole"
>>         <clemc at ccc.com <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>> wrote:
>>
>>             I believe the pcc/386 came out of Steve Johnson team at
>>             Summit with the PCC2 work.
>>
>>             Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be
>>             almost but not quite.
>>
>>             On Jul 11, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Jason Stevens
>>             <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com
>>             <mailto:jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com>> wrote:
>>
>>>             Does anyone know where the 386 port from PCC came from?
>>>
>>>             __ __
>>>
>>>             While trying to build a Tahoe userland for the i386, it
>>>             seems that everything was built with GCC…
>>>
>>>             Was there a PCC for the i386 around ’88-90?  It seems
>>>             after the rapid demise of the Tahoe/Harris
>>>
>>>             HCX-9 that the non Vax/HCX-9 platforms had moved to GCC?____
>>>
>>>             __ __
>>>
>>>             Also anyone know any good test software for LIBC?  I’ve
>>>             been tracing through some____
>>>
>>>             strange issues rebuilding LIBC from Tahoe, where I had to
>>>             include some bits from____
>>>
>>>             Reno to get diropen to actually work.  I would imagine
>>>             there ought to have been some____
>>>
>>>             platform exercise code to make sure things were actually
>>>             working instead of say____
>>>
>>>             building as much as you can, and playing rogue for a few
>>>             hours to make sure____
>>>
>>>             its stable enough.
>>>

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer at technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Jul 12 08:02:21 2019
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 18:02:21 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
Message-ID: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>

Interactive Systems.   Now there’s a name I’ve not heard in many a year.  Heinz Lycklama went there.

The did a couple of things, a straight UNIX port to various things (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product.

They also had their own version of the Rand Editor called “INed” that was happiest on this hacked version of a Perkin Elmer terminal.

Early versions were PWB UNIX based if I recall.


My first job out of college was working with IS Unix on an 11/70 playing configuration management (essentially all the PWB stuff).   I also hacked the line printer spooler and the .mm macro package to do classification markings (this was a part of a government contract).

 

A few years later I was given the job of porting Interactive Systems UNIX that was already running on an i386 (an Intel 310 system which had a Multibus I) to an Intel Multibus II box.    Intel had already ported it once, but nobody seemed to be able to find the source code.    So with a fresh set of the source code for the old system from IS, I proceeded to reverse engineer/port the code to the Message Passing Coprocessor.   (Intel was not real forthcoming for documentation for that either).   Eventually, I got it to work (the Multibus II really was a pleasant bus and worked well with UNIX).   I went on to write drivers for a 9-track tape drive (which sat in my living room for a long time), a Matrox multibus II framebuffer (OK, that had problems), and a SCSI host adapter that was talking to this kludge device that captured digital data from a FLIR on uMatic cassettes (but that’s a different story).

 

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From dave at horsfall.org  Fri Jul 12 08:31:01 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 08:31:01 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote:

> Interactive Systems.   Now there’s a name I’ve not heard in many a 
> year.  Heinz Lycklama went there.

A blast from the past indeed.

> The did a couple of things, a straight UNIX port to various things 
> (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product.

Which model of the PDP-11?  I did ports of V6.5 (as I called it) to the 
11/34, 11/23, and 11/60, all of which had their oddities.

And that wouldn't be Eunice, would it?  Or was that purely a DEC product?

-- Dave

From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Jul 12 10:14:41 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:14:41 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <bb93a96b-4c05-7036-0540-95e1ae596f96@technologists.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CANCZdfrYFuh0XQUBdMU3=E29Wz_Lq9ycJBU5NfOt92Sy1qULfQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2MQ-castDpjCzJvKc5po322AQTF8g=2zgumdfywta8z+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <bb93a96b-4c05-7036-0540-95e1ae596f96@technologists.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OE4NFYeRr+pQWKAVYuHQjUwSc7Ase-pLc=T4KOs7jwBw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 3:40 PM Charles H Sauer <sauer at technologists.com>
wrote:

> I assume AIX/386 used pcc, but Clem likely knows for sure.
>
I never knew it to be otherwise.  We certainly started the AT&T tools and I
don't think we changed anything on that front.   AFAIK: AIX/370 was the
same.

Clem
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From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Jul 12 12:52:19 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 20:52:19 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019, 4:31 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote:
>
> > Interactive Systems.   Now there’s a name I’ve not heard in many a
> > year.  Heinz Lycklama went there.
>
> A blast from the past indeed.
>
> > The did a couple of things, a straight UNIX port to various things
> > (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product.
>
> Which model of the PDP-11?  I did ports of V6.5 (as I called it) to the
> 11/34, 11/23, and 11/60, all of which had their oddities.
>
> And that wouldn't be Eunice, would it?  Or was that purely a DEC product?
>

Eunice came from Stanford and was sold by the Wollongong group, both as a
standalone thing, or as the TCP/IP subset... I'm unsure if others licensed
it or not (TGV did the TCP part, iirc, but enhanced it way more than TWG
did).

Warner

>
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From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com  Fri Jul 12 13:55:40 2019
From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:55:40 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACCFpdzqjQaQYFwrt0Dfx6vVVNZYLmFvDuGjQG2AYrCk3OtTkg@mail.gmail.com>

>> On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote:
>> > (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product.

Was there only three UNIX on VMS (or under...) options?

Eunice:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunice_(software)

"phi"-nix: A Unix Emulator for VAX/VMS:
https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/101549/TR82-08.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

ISC's IS/1-WB Work Bench for VMS (UNIX Tools only?)

From mparson at bl.org  Fri Jul 12 13:44:25 2019
From: mparson at bl.org (Michael Parson)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 22:44:25 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47139f945cc7604aeebe7a6e8276a29c@bl.org>

On 2019-07-11 11:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> <snip>
>> 
>> With the original system V, all of AT&T, Intel and IBM paid 
>> Interactive Systems Corp (aka ISC) to port the System V/Vax code to a 
>> 386 ps/2 and an Intel reference system that used an ISA bus.  This 
>> would be eventually released in source at the 386 port from AT&T.   As 
>> part of the contract summit supplied the compiler
>> 
> <snip>
> 
> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...

ISC was acquired by Eastman Kodak in 1988, who eventually sold 
Interactive Unix to Sun in 1991.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ


From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Jul 13 03:00:10 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:00:10 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <CACCFpdzqjQaQYFwrt0Dfx6vVVNZYLmFvDuGjQG2AYrCk3OtTkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACCFpdzqjQaQYFwrt0Dfx6vVVNZYLmFvDuGjQG2AYrCk3OtTkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Nw8e2QdyoSxxXS+dwp9xGhxwSJYHsBcj_JdQNhSNJY5A@mail.gmail.com>

There were a number of them.  As others have meantioned, the TGV folks did
one, there were a number of tools from DECUS, and even DEC actually
released more and more UNIX into VMS themselves.   I used to carry a mag
tape with vi, the shell and few basic tools that allowed me to edit things
on VMS if I had to deal with it.  The biggest issue was TCP/IP, since
DECnet was the only networking for a such a long time from DEC.

Stan Smith and I wrote the original VAX IP/TCP support for Tektronix in
1979, in BLISS and some small amount of VAX assembler.  My friends (former
coworkers) @ CMU took this back in and enhanced it (the CMU folks did a
huge amount of work on the mail interface).  IIRC I sent the tape to Danny
Klein, but it might have been someone else.

I have the code from the CMU's update of our work on 9-track tape, but I
think it eventually also may have gone out on a DECUS tape.    But I do
know that this code base would make its way to DEC, where CJ and Wayne
would take it to become the code base that started OpenVMS's version [CJ
once told me he was impressed at how little they had to rewrite it, mostly
removing some Vaxism's - Stan and I were not worried about portability, we
just wanted something to talk correctly to the UNIX V7 TCP from 3COM (UNET)
and the TCP we had written from the Cyber NOS].

Clem

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:56 PM Nigel Williams <
nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> wrote:

> >> On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote:
> >> > (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product.
>
> Was there only three UNIX on VMS (or under...) options?
>
> Eunice:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunice_(software)
>
> "phi"-nix: A Unix Emulator for VAX/VMS:
>
> https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/101549/TR82-08.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
>
> ISC's IS/1-WB Work Bench for VMS (UNIX Tools only?)
>
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From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu  Sat Jul 13 06:12:23 2019
From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 13:12:23 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Nw8e2QdyoSxxXS+dwp9xGhxwSJYHsBcj_JdQNhSNJY5A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACCFpdzqjQaQYFwrt0Dfx6vVVNZYLmFvDuGjQG2AYrCk3OtTkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nw8e2QdyoSxxXS+dwp9xGhxwSJYHsBcj_JdQNhSNJY5A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu>

There was also an extensive port of the Software Tools to VMS, done by 
Joe Sventek at LBNL.   Included at the key tools, the shell, pipes, 
everything.   Felt completely like Unix.
Deborah

On 7/12/19 10:00 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> There were a number of them.  As others have meantioned, the TGV folks 
> did one, there were a number of tools from DECUS, and even DEC 
> actually released more and more UNIX into VMS themselves.   I used to 
> carry a mag tape with vi, the shell and few basic tools that allowed 
> me to edit things on VMS if I had to deal with it.  The biggest issue 
> was TCP/IP, since DECnet was the only networking for a such a long 
> time from DEC.
>
> Stan Smith and I wrote the original VAX IP/TCP support for Tektronix 
> in 1979, in BLISS and some small amount of VAX assembler.  My friends 
> (former coworkers) @ CMU took this back in and enhanced it (the CMU 
> folks did a huge amount of work on the mail interface).  IIRC I sent 
> the tape to Danny Klein, but it might have been someone else.
>
> I have the code from the CMU's update of our work on 9-track tape, but 
> I think it eventually also may have gone out on a DECUS tape.    But I 
> do know that this code base would make its way to DEC, where CJ and 
> Wayne would take it to become the code base that started OpenVMS's 
> version [CJ once told me he was impressed at how little they had to 
> rewrite it, mostly removing some Vaxism's - Stan and I were not 
> worried about portability, we just wanted something to talk correctly 
> to the UNIX V7 TCP from 3COM (UNET) and the TCP we had written from 
> the Cyber NOS].
>
> Clem
>
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 11:56 PM Nigel Williams 
> <nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com <mailto:nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com>> 
> wrote:
>
>     >> On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, ron at ronnatalie.com
>     <mailto:ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>     >> > (PDP-11, 386) and also there “UNIX running under VMS” product.
>
>     Was there only three UNIX on VMS (or under...) options?
>
>     Eunice:
>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunice_(software)
>     <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunice_%28software%29>
>
>     "phi"-nix: A Unix Emulator for VAX/VMS:
>     https://scholarship.rice.edu/bitstream/handle/1911/101549/TR82-08.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
>
>     ISC's IS/1-WB Work Bench for VMS (UNIX Tools only?)
>

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From paul.winalski at gmail.com  Sat Jul 13 06:45:55 2019
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:45:55 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACCFpdzqjQaQYFwrt0Dfx6vVVNZYLmFvDuGjQG2AYrCk3OtTkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nw8e2QdyoSxxXS+dwp9xGhxwSJYHsBcj_JdQNhSNJY5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VSuUu+UpT1B1U4TUFw4H1zs3SPxaWHTMsua7ErrRkmhCA@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/12/19, Deborah Scherrer <dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu> wrote:
> There was also an extensive port of the Software Tools to VMS, done by
> Joe Sventek at LBNL.   Included at the key tools, the shell, pipes,
> everything.   Felt completely like Unix.

How did the LBNL Software Tools for VMS implement pipes?  I'm curious
because DEC itself did a product in the mid-1980s called DEC Shell
that was a VMS port of the Bourne shell and associated utilities.  I
wrote a VMS device driver that implemented pipes as a true VMS
pseudo-device, similar to VMS mailboxes but with true Unix pipe
semantics.

-Paul W.

From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu  Sat Jul 13 07:43:44 2019
From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:43:44 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <CABH=_VSuUu+UpT1B1U4TUFw4H1zs3SPxaWHTMsua7ErrRkmhCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACCFpdzqjQaQYFwrt0Dfx6vVVNZYLmFvDuGjQG2AYrCk3OtTkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nw8e2QdyoSxxXS+dwp9xGhxwSJYHsBcj_JdQNhSNJY5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu>
 <CABH=_VSuUu+UpT1B1U4TUFw4H1zs3SPxaWHTMsua7ErrRkmhCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3f4400b9-a243-d86a-11a6-473f0e93adea@solar.stanford.edu>

I didn't do this port, so don't know the details.  But it was done in 
the late 70s (I think) and had broad distribution.  When I collected 
various Software Tools versions, I was not able to find the VMS one. Sorry.
Deborah

On 7/12/19 1:45 PM, Paul Winalski wrote:
> On 7/12/19, Deborah Scherrer <dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu> wrote:
>> There was also an extensive port of the Software Tools to VMS, done by
>> Joe Sventek at LBNL.   Included at the key tools, the shell, pipes,
>> everything.   Felt completely like Unix.
> How did the LBNL Software Tools for VMS implement pipes?  I'm curious
> because DEC itself did a product in the mid-1980s called DEC Shell
> that was a VMS port of the Bourne shell and associated utilities.  I
> wrote a VMS device driver that implemented pipes as a true VMS
> pseudo-device, similar to VMS mailboxes but with true Unix pipe
> semantics.
>
> -Paul W.


From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Jul 13 08:45:28 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 15:45:28 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <3f4400b9-a243-d86a-11a6-473f0e93adea@solar.stanford.edu>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACCFpdzqjQaQYFwrt0Dfx6vVVNZYLmFvDuGjQG2AYrCk3OtTkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nw8e2QdyoSxxXS+dwp9xGhxwSJYHsBcj_JdQNhSNJY5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu>
 <CABH=_VSuUu+UpT1B1U4TUFw4H1zs3SPxaWHTMsua7ErrRkmhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3f4400b9-a243-d86a-11a6-473f0e93adea@solar.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Okp+OLW_U-TUj2Oqf=dZf6YB=3uEyRbiRieOj75+Lwog@mail.gmail.com>

If I recall this was one of the implementations that wrote to a file and
then forked the next process after it got to eof.

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 2:44 PM Deborah Scherrer <
dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu> wrote:

> I didn't do this port, so don't know the details.  But it was done in
> the late 70s (I think) and had broad distribution.  When I collected
> various Software Tools versions, I was not able to find the VMS one. Sorry.
> Deborah
>
> On 7/12/19 1:45 PM, Paul Winalski wrote:
> > On 7/12/19, Deborah Scherrer <dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >> There was also an extensive port of the Software Tools to VMS, done by
> >> Joe Sventek at LBNL.   Included at the key tools, the shell, pipes,
> >> everything.   Felt completely like Unix.
> > How did the LBNL Software Tools for VMS implement pipes?  I'm curious
> > because DEC itself did a product in the mid-1980s called DEC Shell
> > that was a VMS port of the Bourne shell and associated utilities.  I
> > wrote a VMS device driver that implemented pipes as a true VMS
> > pseudo-device, similar to VMS mailboxes but with true Unix pipe
> > semantics.
> >
> > -Paul W.
>
> --
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
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From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu  Sat Jul 13 09:18:52 2019
From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:18:52 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Okp+OLW_U-TUj2Oqf=dZf6YB=3uEyRbiRieOj75+Lwog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACCFpdzqjQaQYFwrt0Dfx6vVVNZYLmFvDuGjQG2AYrCk3OtTkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nw8e2QdyoSxxXS+dwp9xGhxwSJYHsBcj_JdQNhSNJY5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu>
 <CABH=_VSuUu+UpT1B1U4TUFw4H1zs3SPxaWHTMsua7ErrRkmhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3f4400b9-a243-d86a-11a6-473f0e93adea@solar.stanford.edu>
 <CAC20D2Okp+OLW_U-TUj2Oqf=dZf6YB=3uEyRbiRieOj75+Lwog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <36ef656e-a1ce-1eba-f330-aeba4103d6d9@solar.stanford.edu>

I believe you are right.  That was a typical implementation method.
Deborah

On 7/12/19 3:45 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> If I recall this was one of the implementations that wrote to a file 
> and then forked the next process after it got to eof.
>
> On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 2:44 PM Deborah Scherrer 
> <dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu <mailto:dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu>> 
> wrote:
>
>     I didn't do this port, so don't know the details.  But it was done in
>     the late 70s (I think) and had broad distribution.  When I collected
>     various Software Tools versions, I was not able to find the VMS
>     one. Sorry.
>     Deborah
>
>     On 7/12/19 1:45 PM, Paul Winalski wrote:
>     > On 7/12/19, Deborah Scherrer <dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu
>     <mailto:dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu>> wrote:
>     >> There was also an extensive port of the Software Tools to VMS,
>     done by
>     >> Joe Sventek at LBNL.   Included at the key tools, the shell, pipes,
>     >> everything.   Felt completely like Unix.
>     > How did the LBNL Software Tools for VMS implement pipes?  I'm
>     curious
>     > because DEC itself did a product in the mid-1980s called DEC Shell
>     > that was a VMS port of the Bourne shell and associated utilities.  I
>     > wrote a VMS device driver that implemented pipes as a true VMS
>     > pseudo-device, similar to VMS mailboxes but with true Unix pipe
>     > semantics.
>     >
>     > -Paul W.
>
> -- 
> Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual

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From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu  Sat Jul 13 09:23:43 2019
From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 16:23:43 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration
Message-ID: <fbb5c4b2-1e21-8770-78de-8895c239aced@solar.stanford.edu>

Many, many thanks to Clem Cole for arranging the 50th Unix Anniversary 
celebration in Seattle last Wednesday.  It was wonderful to see old 
friends again.  Most of these folks are still out in the world sharing 
their brilliance in various computing facilities. Lots of very special 
people still doing wonderful work!  Thanks, Clem, for the chance to meet 
up with them again!

Deborah

From dave at horsfall.org  Sat Jul 13 10:24:18 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:24:18 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Okp+OLW_U-TUj2Oqf=dZf6YB=3uEyRbiRieOj75+Lwog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACCFpdzqjQaQYFwrt0Dfx6vVVNZYLmFvDuGjQG2AYrCk3OtTkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nw8e2QdyoSxxXS+dwp9xGhxwSJYHsBcj_JdQNhSNJY5A@mail.gmail.com>
 <07dffb4b-d9d7-c33d-d0e6-5c26fa0ce6e5@solar.stanford.edu>
 <CABH=_VSuUu+UpT1B1U4TUFw4H1zs3SPxaWHTMsua7ErrRkmhCA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3f4400b9-a243-d86a-11a6-473f0e93adea@solar.stanford.edu>
 <CAC20D2Okp+OLW_U-TUj2Oqf=dZf6YB=3uEyRbiRieOj75+Lwog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907131020260.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Fri, 12 Jul 2019, Clem Cole wrote:

[ VMS "pipes" ]

> If I recall this was one of the implementations that wrote to a file and 
> then forked the next process after it got to eof.    

That's my recollection too.

Trivia: I was speaking to Max at a DECUS conference, and he admitted that 
they had a Unix licence and were studying the code very carefully; not 
soon after, VMS became POSIX-compliant :-)

-- Dave

From dave at horsfall.org  Sat Jul 13 10:36:28 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:36:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Interactive Systems (was Pcc for 386)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <27f401d53834$51101140$f33033c0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907120826150.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfo-92gjna9jFLihXycvOU0qtASwZF_w=do7wRPQCysoCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907131027510.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019, Warner Losh wrote:

>       Which model of the PDP-11?  I did ports of V6.5 (as I called it)
>       to the 11/34, 11/23, and 11/60, all of which had their oddities.
>
>       And that wouldn't be Eunice, would it?  Or was that purely a DEC
>       product?
> 
> Eunice came from Stanford and was sold by the Wollongong group, both as 
> a standalone thing, or as the TCP/IP subset... I'm unsure if others 
> licensed it or not (TGV did the TCP part, iirc, but enhanced it way more 
> than TWG did).

Aha!  Thanks for that background info.

I still remember the conversation I had with my boss about running Eunice 
on their Vaxen:

Me: "It makes VMS look civilised."
He: "No, it makes it look like Unix."
Me: "That's what I said!"

Dunno what happened afterwards, because I was attracted to a commercial 
opportunity which paid much more and needed my Unix skills (otherwise I 
would've been supporting ancient COBOL programs).

-- Dave

From web at loomcom.com  Sat Jul 13 11:52:11 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 18:52:11 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration
In-Reply-To: <fbb5c4b2-1e21-8770-78de-8895c239aced@solar.stanford.edu>
References: <fbb5c4b2-1e21-8770-78de-8895c239aced@solar.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com>


Deborah Scherrer writes:

> Many, many thanks to Clem Cole for arranging the 50th Unix Anniversary
> celebration in Seattle last Wednesday.  It was wonderful to see old
> friends again.  Most of these folks are still out in the world sharing
> their brilliance in various computing facilities. Lots of very special
> people still doing wonderful work!  Thanks, Clem, for the chance to
> meet up with them again!

I'd like to second this. I truly enjoyed myself at the event, even
though I came in dead last place in the Unics Version 0 B programming
contest :^)

It was a great deal of fun to see so many working Unix systems on
display, even if I did feel quite old seeing so many I worked with when
they were new.

> Deborah

-Seth
--
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA, USA
  web at loomcom.com

From crossd at gmail.com  Sat Jul 13 14:49:10 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 00:49:10 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?q?RIP_Fernando_Corbat=C3=B3?=
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W64sw-sZTD0GtC=Rfdf=K_Wk-MzPSt22V=Znma4dZzatA@mail.gmail.com>

Tom Van Vleck just passed this on the Multics mailing list. Fernando
Corbató has passed away at 93.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/science/fernando-corbato-dead.html

Clem organized the wonderful Unix 50 event at the LCM two days ago, where
we saw a working 6180 front panel on display (backed by a virtual DPS-8m
running Multics!).

This is our heritage and our history, let us not forget where we came from.

        - Dan C.
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From thomas.paulsen at firemail.de  Sat Jul 13 19:00:55 2019
From: thomas.paulsen at firemail.de (Thomas Paulsen)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 11:00:55 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?q?RIP_Fernando_Corbat=C3=B3?=
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W64sw-sZTD0GtC=Rfdf=K_Wk-MzPSt22V=Znma4dZzatA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W64sw-sZTD0GtC=Rfdf=K_Wk-MzPSt22V=Znma4dZzatA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <713b2fb41928faf5c4d29104464cd262@firemail.de>

one of the most important computer scientists passed away - a tragedy. RIP Corby.

--- Ursprüngliche Nachricht ---
Von: Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com>
Datum: 13.07.2019 06:49:10
An: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>, COFF <coff at minnie.tuhs.org>,  "Stephen M. Jones" <smj at sdf.org>
Betreff: [TUHS] RIP Fernando Corbató

> Tom Van Vleck just passed this on the Multics mailing list. Fernando
> Corbató has passed away at 93.
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/12/science/fernando-corbato-dead.html
>
> Clem organized the wonderful Unix 50 event at the LCM two days ago, where
>
> we saw a working 6180 front panel on display (backed by a virtual DPS-8m
>
> running Multics!).
>
> This is our heritage and our history, let us not forget where we came from.
>
>
>         - Dan C.
>



From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sun Jul 14 03:46:27 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 01:46:27 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] CSRG Archive! (and Mach fun)
Message-ID: <996f972f-f08f-4769-b8cf-35996ee77be1@PU1APC01FT031.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

Well I checked out Kirk’s site, and found out that he has a DVD to go along with the old 4 disc CD-ROM sets:

In the 20 years since the release of the CSRG CD-ROM Set (1998-2018) I have continued collecting old software which I have put together in two historic collections. The first is various historic UNIX distributions not from Berkeley. The second is programs and other operating systems that shipped on or influenced BSD. The distribution is contained on a single DVD that contains all the original content from the original 4-CD-ROM distribution, these two collections of historic software, and a copy of John Baldwin's conversion of the SCCS database contained on the original disk4 to a Subversion repository. Unlike most write-once technology which remains readable for less than ten years, this DVD is written using M-Disc technology which should last for centuries. The price for the DVD is $149.00.

I know the $150 USD may sound pricy but the historic2 archive does contain a couple additional copies of Mach!

And a bunch of other stuff in there as well, it’s gigabytes of stuff to go through.
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From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Jul 14 03:53:18 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:53:18 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration
In-Reply-To: <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com>
References: <fbb5c4b2-1e21-8770-78de-8895c239aced@solar.stanford.edu>
 <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2N_PsKMrkKqDYFmHDcb1mEj-hAOPVkxY8jWxS8d_KTUwg@mail.gmail.com>

You all are most welcome and thank you for being a part of it.  A party is
about the people that come and enjoy each other.  The truth is Stephen
Jones, Aaron Alcorn, Rich Alderson and their wonderful team at LCM+L and
the folks at SDF made it so.  What a wonderful venue and super hosts.   I
truly hope folks on this list can support their efforts.  They have a gem
and as a community, we can thank them enough for keeping so much alive.

Clem

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019 at 6:53 PM Seth J. Morabito <web at loomcom.com> wrote:

>
> Deborah Scherrer writes:
>
> > Many, many thanks to Clem Cole for arranging the 50th Unix Anniversary
> > celebration in Seattle last Wednesday.  It was wonderful to see old
> > friends again.  Most of these folks are still out in the world sharing
> > their brilliance in various computing facilities. Lots of very special
> > people still doing wonderful work!  Thanks, Clem, for the chance to
> > meet up with them again!
>
> I'd like to second this. I truly enjoyed myself at the event, even
> though I came in dead last place in the Unics Version 0 B programming
> contest :^)
>
> It was a great deal of fun to see so many working Unix systems on
> display, even if I did feel quite old seeing so many I worked with when
> they were new.
>
> > Deborah
>
> -Seth
> --
>   Seth Morabito
>   Poulsbo, WA, USA
>   web at loomcom.com
>
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From david at kdbarto.org  Sun Jul 14 03:48:44 2019
From: david at kdbarto.org (David)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:48:44 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] CSRG Archive! (and Mach fun)
In-Reply-To: <996f972f-f08f-4769-b8cf-35996ee77be1@PU1APC01FT031.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <996f972f-f08f-4769-b8cf-35996ee77be1@PU1APC01FT031.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <F0B2F861-C3AE-4002-A12D-DA8B36F4BA8E@kdbarto.org>

Where can one find an index of the DVD. I might spring for it.

	David

> On Jul 13, 2019, at 10:46 AM, Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
> 
> Well I checked out Kirk’s site, and found out that he has a DVD to go along with the old 4 disc CD-ROM sets:
>  
> In the 20 years since the release of the CSRG CD-ROM Set (1998-2018) I have continued collecting old software which I have put together in two historic collections. The first is various historic UNIX distributions not from Berkeley. The second is programs and other operating systems that shipped on or influenced BSD. The distribution is contained on a single DVD that contains all the original content from the original 4-CD-ROM distribution, these two collections of historic software, and a copy of John Baldwin's conversion of the SCCS database contained on the original disk4 to a Subversion repository. Unlike most write-once technology which remains readable for less than ten years, this DVD is written using M-Disc technology which should last for centuries. The price for the DVD is $149.00.
>  
> I know the $150 USD may sound pricy but the historic2 archive does contain a couple additional copies of Mach!
>  
> And a bunch of other stuff in there as well, it’s gigabytes of stuff to go through.

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From wkt at tuhs.org  Sun Jul 14 07:48:51 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 07:48:51 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] CSRG Archive! (and Mach fun)
In-Reply-To: <F0B2F861-C3AE-4002-A12D-DA8B36F4BA8E@kdbarto.org>
References: <996f972f-f08f-4769-b8cf-35996ee77be1@PU1APC01FT031.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <F0B2F861-C3AE-4002-A12D-DA8B36F4BA8E@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <20190713214851.GA31649@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:48:44AM -0700, David wrote:
>    Where can one find an index of the DVD. I might spring for it.

https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Documentation/CSRG_CDs/

Cheers, Warren

From wkt at tuhs.org  Sun Jul 14 10:21:11 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 10:21:11 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2N_PsKMrkKqDYFmHDcb1mEj-hAOPVkxY8jWxS8d_KTUwg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fbb5c4b2-1e21-8770-78de-8895c239aced@solar.stanford.edu>
 <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com>
 <CAC20D2N_PsKMrkKqDYFmHDcb1mEj-hAOPVkxY8jWxS8d_KTUwg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190714002111.GA14567@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:53:18AM -0700, Clem Cole wrote:
>    You all are most welcome and thank you for being a part of it.  A party
>    is about the people that come and enjoy each other.  The truth is
>    Stephen Jones, Aaron Alcorn, Rich Alderson and their wonderful team at
>    LCM+L and the folks at SDF made it so.  What a wonderful venue and
>    super hosts.   I truly hope folks on this list can support their
>    efforts.  They have a gem and as a community, we can thank them enough
>    for keeping so much alive.
>    Clem

Yes, thanks so much for all involved in the LCM+L event. I wish I could have
been there. If you took photos/videos of the event, or any at the Usenix ATC,
could you put them up somewhere for us (me) to see!

Thanks,
	Warren

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun Jul 14 10:22:42 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 18:22:42 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration
In-Reply-To: <20190714002111.GA14567@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <fbb5c4b2-1e21-8770-78de-8895c239aced@solar.stanford.edu>
 <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com>
 <CAC20D2N_PsKMrkKqDYFmHDcb1mEj-hAOPVkxY8jWxS8d_KTUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190714002111.GA14567@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrL_1+4QsSnDjKJZxWqGeaQmRokdSeqjx0ZKnYj9p=zhg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 6:21 PM Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:53:18AM -0700, Clem Cole wrote:
> >    You all are most welcome and thank you for being a part of it.  A
> party
> >    is about the people that come and enjoy each other.  The truth is
> >    Stephen Jones, Aaron Alcorn, Rich Alderson and their wonderful team at
> >    LCM+L and the folks at SDF made it so.  What a wonderful venue and
> >    super hosts.   I truly hope folks on this list can support their
> >    efforts.  They have a gem and as a community, we can thank them enough
> >    for keeping so much alive.
> >    Clem
>
> Yes, thanks so much for all involved in the LCM+L event. I wish I could
> have
> been there. If you took photos/videos of the event, or any at the Usenix
> ATC,
> could you put them up somewhere for us (me) to see!
>


Yea. That would be great...

Warner

>
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From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun Jul 14 11:47:52 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 19:47:52 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Looking for email archives...
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoT=TVuuJsGpojEoxoo_icdqpzDT85qBz5DSaiqOp_Q+Q@mail.gmail.com>

... of the pdp7 unix restoration activities. I could find the old unix72
ones at tuhs, but not the unix v0 archives. Can someone point me in the
right direction? A google search or 4 has turned up nothing. Has it been
archived somewhere?

Warner
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From dave at horsfall.org  Sun Jul 14 15:56:21 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 15:56:21 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>

386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz 
started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and 
corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just 
about everything).

-- Dave

From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun Jul 14 16:01:52 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2019 23:01:52 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20190714060152.GA18322@mcvoy.com>

I'm a fan of Bill, he worked for me, wasn't work, it was payback
for what he went through.  Bill and Lynne are unsung heros.

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 03:56:21PM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz
> started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and
> corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just
> about everything).
> 
> -- Dave

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From grog at lemis.com  Sun Jul 14 16:23:12 2019
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 16:23:12 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!
In-Reply-To: <20190714061544.GD74692@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190714061544.GD74692@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <20190714062312.GA50604@eureka.lemis.com>

On Sunday, 14 July 2019 at 16:15:44 +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> On Sunday, 14 July 2019 at 15:56:21 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz
>> started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and
>> corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just
>> about everything).
>
> Yes, I recall a release on the French national holiday, with specific
> reference to that event,

Here we go (http://gunkies.org/wiki/386BSD_0.1_announcement):

                     386BSD Release 0.1

                       "Cut the Tape"
                        14 July 1992
                       (Bastille Day)
                    "Vive la Revolution"

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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From grog at lemis.com  Sun Jul 14 16:15:44 2019
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 16:15:44 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20190714061544.GD74692@eureka.lemis.com>

On Sunday, 14 July 2019 at 15:56:21 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz
> started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and
> corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just
> about everything).

Yes, I recall a release on the French national holiday, with specific
reference to that event, but there were earlier versions of 386BSD out
there.  I have a message relayed from Bill Jolitz by David Harris on
19 March 1992, containing:

  I have made 386BSD Release 0.0 available with public access sources.

This appears to be the same as the message at
https://tech-insider.org/unix/research/1992/0319.html

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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From wkt at tuhs.org  Sun Jul 14 16:50:11 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 16:50:11 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Looking for email archives...
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfoT=TVuuJsGpojEoxoo_icdqpzDT85qBz5DSaiqOp_Q+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfoT=TVuuJsGpojEoxoo_icdqpzDT85qBz5DSaiqOp_Q+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190714065011.GA26383@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 07:47:52PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
>    ... of the pdp7 unix restoration activities. I could find the old
>    unix72 ones at tuhs, but not the unix v0 archives. Can someone point me
>    in the right direction? A google search or 4 has turned up nothing. Has
>    it been archived somewhere?
>    Warner

Try https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/pdp7-unix/

Cheers! Warren

From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sun Jul 14 16:53:18 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 06:53:18 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.c1325e10-4843-49ad-a450-d6d7c98018a1@mail.outlook.com>

Getting this to build was such a tremendous effort.  Although last time I revisited my 386BSD 0.0 work even under emulation it ran too fast and had issues. 




But it's really a tremendous effort what Bill and Lynne had done, by pushing out not only a running version of Net/2 but a self hosting version of Net/2 for the lowly and utterly common and commodity 386.




Its a shame the BSDSS and later N2SS from CMU (ports of 4.4 / Net/2) to Mach 3.  But that USL vs BSDi/CSRG lawsuit cut short what should have the shot heard around the world moment. 




It was shockingly hard to chase down 386BSD  0.0 just as it was to find NetBSD 0.8 and 0.9




Im just sad I was in the dark about BSD at that time, all the Unix people I knew hid behind their RS/6000s and SUN workstations while me and all my peers were all all running Linux. 




But there is nothing like the feeling of running make world, or building a custom kernel when compared to just running a binary set. 




Since 0.1 is more capable, here is a download for Windows users for it ready to run. 




https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.1.exe/download






On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:57 PM +0800, "Dave Horsfall" <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:










386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz 
started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and 
corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just 
about everything).

-- Dave





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From erc at pobox.com  Sun Jul 14 17:13:35 2019
From: erc at pobox.com (Ed Carp)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 00:13:35 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1907140008320.2131@seddev1>

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019, space aliens made Dave Horsfall write:

> 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz 
> started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and

Not really. Bill and Lynne kept very tight control over releases - the 
word "open" didn't really apply to 386BSD, and there were many Open Source 
projects well under way before 386BSD was even conceived.

Under Linux, the process was a lot more "open", even democratic. One of 
the reasons I abandoned 386BSD early on and started working on Linux was 
because I (as well as many others) were very frustrated at the complete 
contol the Jolitz's exercised over 386BSD, and limited releases to one 
every six months - much slower than was generally considered to be 
acceptable for the long list of bugs and fixes in the pipeline.


From erc at pobox.com  Sun Jul 14 17:15:45 2019
From: erc at pobox.com (Ed Carp)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 00:15:45 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!
In-Reply-To: <20190714060152.GA18322@mcvoy.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190714060152.GA18322@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1907140014250.2131@seddev1>

On Sat, 13 Jul 2019, space aliens made Larry McVoy write:

> I'm a fan of Bill, he worked for me, wasn't work, it was payback
> for what he went through.  Bill and Lynne are unsung heros.

Many people wished they would've released code and fixes more often. That 
was one of the reasons that Linux gained considerable attention over 
386BSD in those days.

From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sun Jul 14 18:14:06 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 08:14:06 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1907140014250.2131@seddev1>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190714060152.GA18322@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1907140014250.2131@seddev1>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.0fd79bf4-dfc6-485a-a229-e0417bd94acb@mail.outlook.com>

Well 0.0 barely ran at all, but 0.1 was pretty solid.  The big thing was that it was self hosting and by way of the patch kits, forking was not only easy, but inevitable as Free and Net headed in different directions. 




What really lead to the widespread adoption of Linux was the incredibly limited release information on 386BSD as Linus had mentioned a few times that if he knew about 386BSD he wouldn't have even started Linux.  




But in my opinion it was the combination of BSDi over estimating the odds of annoying AT&T/USL, along with how quickly universities like CMU dumped any/all public BSD work, and the rise of Linux being able to run a GNU user land free and independent of BSD code. 




Otherwise most of us would be running "NiHao BSD, orange aardvark" or however it is they come up with distro names. 




But I'd say that even though it sputtered out quickly, 386BSD showed that even 2 people could push a free and open OS out into the world via the internet.











On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 3:21 PM +0800, "Ed Carp" <erc at pobox.com> wrote:










On Sat, 13 Jul 2019, space aliens made Larry McVoy write:

> I'm a fan of Bill, he worked for me, wasn't work, it was payback
> for what he went through.  Bill and Lynne are unsung heros.

Many people wished they would've released code and fixes more often. That 
was one of the reasons that Linux gained considerable attention over 
386BSD in those days.





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From mphuff at gmail.com  Sun Jul 14 18:17:32 2019
From: mphuff at gmail.com (Michael Huff)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 00:17:32 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re:  Happy birthday, 386BSD!)
In-Reply-To: <ADFDF14544A65F35.c1325e10-4843-49ad-a450-d6d7c98018a1@mail.outlook.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.c1325e10-4843-49ad-a450-d6d7c98018a1@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <84e9babd-f83c-a4b6-382f-4e6780e91dfb@gmail.com>

Hi

Personally, I'm very grateful for the amount of time you've spent not 
simply finding and posting the things you do (this, cmu mach, the BSD 
and Unix stuff) but also the blog entries you write that spell out the 
steps you take to get it all running.

As someone who came along much later (slackware 3.5?, freebsd 
2.2-something) but has a lot of interest/curiosity about what the older 
days were like it's very helpful and illuminating.

Oh! ...and of course, Happy Birthday 386BSD!

Regards,

-a Virtuallyfun fan/reader

On 7/13/2019 10:53 PM, Jason Stevens wrote:
> Getting this to build was such a tremendous effort.  Although last 
> time I revisited my 386BSD 0.0 work even under emulation it ran too 
> fast and had issues.
>
> But it's really a tremendous effort what Bill and Lynne had done, by 
> pushing out not only a running version of Net/2 but a self hosting 
> version of Net/2 for the lowly and utterly common and commodity 386.
>
> Its a shame the BSDSS and later N2SS from CMU (ports of 4.4 / Net/2) 
> to Mach 3.  But that USL vs BSDi/CSRG lawsuit cut short what should 
> have the shot heard around the world moment.
>
> It was shockingly hard to chase down 386BSD  0.0 just as it was to 
> find NetBSD 0.8 and 0.9
>
> Im just sad I was in the dark about BSD at that time, all the Unix 
> people I knew hid behind their RS/6000s and SUN workstations while me 
> and all my peers were all all running Linux.
>
> But there is nothing like the feeling of running make world, or 
> building a custom kernel when compared to just running a binary set.
>
> Since 0.1 is more capable, here is a download for Windows users for it 
> ready to run.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.1.exe/download
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:57 PM +0800, "Dave Horsfall" 
> <dave at horsfall.org <mailto:dave at horsfall.org>> wrote:
>
>     386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz
>     started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and
>     corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just
>     about everything).
>
>     -- Dave
>
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sun Jul 14 19:07:26 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 09:07:26 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re:  Happy birthday,
 386BSD!)
In-Reply-To: <84e9babd-f83c-a4b6-382f-4e6780e91dfb@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.c1325e10-4843-49ad-a450-d6d7c98018a1@mail.outlook.com>
 <84e9babd-f83c-a4b6-382f-4e6780e91dfb@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.249ed8de-50ad-4a25-ae53-1c7fee584a4d@mail.outlook.com>

It's always nice to get such nice fan mail.   Ever since the early days of SIMH and PUPS I've been a fan of the idea of being able to help others discover and run ancient Unix. 




It's amazing how fast things moved when looking back at the 5 years after the wide stream adoption of the 80386, and how many things have risen and fallen in that time period, how many failed to only come back and win. 




1988-1993 was so incredibly pivotal, much more than say 2014-2019.  I wonder if we will ever see such a powerful window of change like that ever again. 




Definitely a happy birthday to 386BSD!






From: Michael Huff


Sent: Sunday, July 14, 4:18 PM


Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re:  Happy birthday, 386BSD!)


To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org






Hi


Personally, I'm very grateful for the amount of time you've spent not simply finding and posting the things you do (this, cmu mach, the BSD and Unix stuff) but also the blog entries you write that spell out the steps you take to get it all running. 


As someone who came along much later (slackware 3.5?, freebsd 2.2-something) but has a lot of interest/curiosity about what the older days were like it's very helpful and illuminating. 


Oh! ...and of course, Happy Birthday 386BSD!


Regards,


-a Virtuallyfun fan/reader


On 7/13/2019 10:53 PM, Jason Stevens wrote:


Getting this to build was such a tremendous effort.  Although last time I revisited my 386BSD 0.0 work even under emulation it ran too fast and had issues. 




But it's really a tremendous effort what Bill and Lynne had done, by pushing out not only a running version of Net/2 but a self hosting version of Net/2 for the lowly and utterly common and commodity 386.




Its a shame the BSDSS and later N2SS from CMU (ports of 4.4 / Net/2) to Mach 3.  But that USL vs BSDi/CSRG lawsuit cut short what should have the shot heard around the world moment. 




It was shockingly hard to chase down 386BSD  0.0 just as it was to find NetBSD 0.8 and 0.9




Im just sad I was in the dark about BSD at that time, all the Unix people I knew hid behind their RS/6000s and SUN workstations while me and all my peers were all all running Linux. 




But there is nothing like the feeling of running make world, or building a custom kernel when compared to just running a binary set. 




Since 0.1 is more capable, here is a download for Windows users for it ready to run. 




https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.1.exe/download








On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:57 PM +0800, "Dave Horsfall" <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:




386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just about everything). -- Dave 








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From tytso at mit.edu  Sun Jul 14 22:52:25 2019
From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 08:52:25 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1907140008320.2131@seddev1>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1907140008320.2131@seddev1>
Message-ID: <20190714125225.GA29912@mit.edu>

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 12:13:35AM -0700, Ed Carp wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jul 2019, space aliens made Dave Horsfall write:
> 
> > 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz
> > started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and
> 
> Not really. Bill and Lynne kept very tight control over releases - the word
> "open" didn't really apply to 386BSD, and there were many Open Source
> projects well under way before 386BSD wasy even conceived.
> 
> Under Linux, the process was a lot more "open", even democratic. One of the
> reasons I abandoned 386BSD early on and started working on Linux was because
> I (as well as many others) were very frustrated at the complete contol the
> Jolitz's exnercised over 386BSD, and limited releases to one every six months
> - much slower than was generally considered to be acceptable for the long
> list of bugs and fixes in the pipeline.

+1

The term "Open Source" dates to 1998, so saying the movement dates
back to 1992 is at best historical revisionism.  If what you mean is
the concept of distributed development, enabled by the internet, and
you don't want to count Linux (which started in 1991), I'd point you
at perl from the late 80's.

Larry Wall was extremely welcoming to enhancements from people that he
didn't know except for the fact that they sent patches that passed
technical muster.  Even if that person was a random undergraduate
systems programmer at MIT...

Both Larry Wall and Linus Torvalds subscribed to the "release early,
release often" methodology --- which was especially important in the
days before distibuted source control systems.  If you want to
encourage contributors, it's really important that they get positive
feedback very quickly.  So feedback on proposed patches, and letting
people see their contributions show up in a new release is
super-important.  And that means releases on a schedule measured in
days or weeks, and not months.

So if anything, I'd claim that 386BSD was a great, early example of an
open source anti-pattern.  Releases every six months might be fine if
you're using a physical distribution medium, like CD-ROM's, but one of
the key aspects of the "Open Source movement" was the distributed
development methodologies that was enabled by the 'Net.

					- Ted

P.S.  There are plenty of other comp.sources.unix and
comp.sources.misc "open source" projects from the 1980's, but Perl is
one of the much larger, much more visible, and with a very large
contributor base, which makes it a very early project that looks like
what many people think of when they say "a successful Open Source
project" today.

From athornton at gmail.com  Mon Jul 15 03:47:17 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 10:47:17 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday,
 386BSD!)
In-Reply-To: <ADFDF14544A65F35.249ed8de-50ad-4a25-ae53-1c7fee584a4d@mail.outlook.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.c1325e10-4843-49ad-a450-d6d7c98018a1@mail.outlook.com>
 <84e9babd-f83c-a4b6-382f-4e6780e91dfb@gmail.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.249ed8de-50ad-4a25-ae53-1c7fee584a4d@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAP2nic2ZCvK7QFEOpRXhY0g=S2QCtjpgdqNjCP8CK0K-cibFGg@mail.gmail.com>

Jason Stevens jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com via
<https://support.google.com/mail/answer/1311182?hl=en>
outdoorexpressionslimited.onmicrosoft.com wrote:
> 1988-1993 was so incredibly pivotal, much more than say 2014-2019.  I
wonder if we will ever see such a powerful window of change like that ever
again.

We did but no one was paying attention.  It was 2007-2010.  The iPhone and
Android were introduced, and the computing world went from an
Intel-architecture monopoly (which it had pretty much become by 2005) to an
Intel/ARM duopoly (because Intel and AMD focused too much on performance
and not enough on making a low-power implementation of the architecture; an
Intel-compatible chip *could* have won the mobile wars, but didn't).  In
the next couple years iPhone and Android (both on ARM) massacred all of the
mobile competition.

That also meant that the underlying OS for mobile devices became, you
guessed it, Unix (or at least something that smells a lot like it).  Which
is weird, given that something designed for single-threaded composible
text-filtering operations is now running almost all of the world's
multithreaded user-facing graphical applications, but that's the vagaries
of history for you.

Adam

On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:08 AM Jason Stevens <
jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:

> It's always nice to get such nice fan mail.   Ever since the early days of
> SIMH and PUPS I've been a fan of the idea of being able to help others
> discover and run ancient Unix.
>
> It's amazing how fast things moved when looking back at the 5 years after
> the wide stream adoption of the 80386, and how many things have risen and
> fallen in that time period, how many failed to only come back and win.
>
> 1988-1993 was so incredibly pivotal, much more than say 2014-2019.  I
> wonder if we will ever see such a powerful window of change like that ever
> again.
>
> Definitely a happy birthday to 386BSD!
>
>
> From: Michael Huff
> Sent: Sunday, July 14, 4:18 PM
> Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re:  Happy birthday, 386BSD!)
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
>
>
> Hi
> Personally, I'm very grateful for the amount of time you've spent not
> simply finding and posting the things you do (this, cmu mach, the BSD and
> Unix stuff) but also the blog entries you write that spell out the steps
> you take to get it all running.
> As someone who came along much later (slackware 3.5?, freebsd
> 2.2-something) but has a lot of interest/curiosity about what the older
> days were like it's very helpful and illuminating.
> Oh! ...and of course, Happy Birthday 386BSD!
> Regards,
> -a Virtuallyfun fan/reader
> On 7/13/2019 10:53 PM, Jason Stevens wrote:
> Getting this to build was such a tremendous effort.  Although last time I
> revisited my 386BSD 0.0 work even under emulation it ran too fast and had
> issues.
>
> But it's really a tremendous effort what Bill and Lynne had done, by
> pushing out not only a running version of Net/2 but a self hosting version
> of Net/2 for the lowly and utterly common and commodity 386.
>
> Its a shame the BSDSS and later N2SS from CMU (ports of 4.4 / Net/2) to
> Mach 3.  But that USL vs BSDi/CSRG lawsuit cut short what should have the
> shot heard around the world moment.
>
> It was shockingly hard to chase down 386BSD  0.0 just as it was to find
> NetBSD 0.8 and 0.9
>
> Im just sad I was in the dark about BSD at that time, all the Unix people
> I knew hid behind their RS/6000s and SUN workstations while me and all my
> peers were all all running Linux.
>
> But there is nothing like the feeling of running make world, or building a
> custom kernel when compared to just running a binary set.
>
> Since 0.1 is more capable, here is a download for Windows users for it
> ready to run.
>
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.1.exe/download
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:57 PM +0800, "Dave Horsfall" <dave at horsfall.org>
> wrote:
>
> 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz
> started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and
> corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just
> about everything). -- Dave
>
>
>
>
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From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Jul 15 05:19:07 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 15:19:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday,
 386BSD!)
Message-ID: <20190714191907.3B48618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Adam Thornton

    > something designed for single-threaded composible text-filtering
    > operations is now running almost all of the world's multithreaded
    > user-facing graphical applications, but that's the vagaries of history
    > for you.

It's a perfect example of my aphorism, "The hallmark of truly great
architecture is not how well it does the things it was designed to do, but how
well it does things it was never expected to handle."

       Noel

From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Mon Jul 15 11:54:54 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 01:54:54 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday,
 386BSD!)
In-Reply-To: <CAP2nic2ZCvK7QFEOpRXhY0g=S2QCtjpgdqNjCP8CK0K-cibFGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1907141555310.53965@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.c1325e10-4843-49ad-a450-d6d7c98018a1@mail.outlook.com>
 <84e9babd-f83c-a4b6-382f-4e6780e91dfb@gmail.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.249ed8de-50ad-4a25-ae53-1c7fee584a4d@mail.outlook.com>
 <CAP2nic2ZCvK7QFEOpRXhY0g=S2QCtjpgdqNjCP8CK0K-cibFGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.508bcf64-a311-431b-b05c-f282b05d8dc7@mail.outlook.com>

The crazy thing about say the rise and fall of Danger (NetBSD) you had BSD+Mach (NeXTSTEP) striking back on the iPhone, the amazing adoption of Linux on the Android front and the spectacular failure of Microsoft and their stop gap OS, Windows CE (which is without a doubt one of the biggest mistakes they ever made) and how NT/OS2 / Windows NT also made it to mobile space but was too late to the market and withdrawn. 




Although the race to bring computers to the masses via smartphones certainly was a big deal, but it was all the same players of the '88-93 wars. 




The real surprise is how a rigid Linux distribution found such wide spread adoption, how NeXT finally found widespread adoption, and how NT was unable to lock in corporate middleware unlike how it did on the desktop. 




I've owned them all, the danger sidekick was so amazing but the lack of SDK's was embarrassing, then Microsoft bought them and effectively dismantled them (anyone remember the Kin?) which really showed their lost ways.  Once rhr iPhone had been jailbreaked being able to ssh in and out of the phone was amazing, but for me the lockdown was just too much. CE has been so neglected that ie4 in 2007 was such a joke.  Android was a rough ride, but it was available globally with wildly varying apps but it had so much buzz outside of western Europe and North America.  Windows phone was a dud until they finally got the NT kernel running but by then they had changed API directions and platforms so much they alienated everyone.  I still love my Lumia 1020.




Its no wonder that USL has no dog in the hunt. Just like how whatever modern sco is called repackaging FreeBSD. 




From: Adam Thornton


Sent: Monday, July 15, 1:48 AM


Subject: Re: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday, 386BSD!)


To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society






Jason Stevens jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com via outdoorexpressionslimited.onmicrosoft.com wrote:


> 1988-1993 was so incredibly pivotal, much more than say 2014-2019.  I wonder if we will ever see such a powerful window of change like that ever again. 




We did but no one was paying attention.  It was 2007-2010.  The iPhone and Android were introduced, and the computing world went from an Intel-architecture monopoly (which it had pretty much become by 2005) to an Intel/ARM duopoly (because Intel and AMD focused too much on performance and not enough on making a low-power implementation of the architecture; an Intel-compatible chip *could* have won the mobile wars, but didn't).  In the next couple years iPhone and Android (both on ARM) massacred all of the mobile competition.




That also meant that the underlying OS for mobile devices became, you guessed it, Unix (or at least something that smells a lot like it).  Which is weird, given that something designed for single-threaded composible text-filtering operations is now running almost all of the world's multithreaded user-facing graphical applications, but that's the vagaries of history for you.




Adam




On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 2:08 AM Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:


It's always nice to get such nice fan mail.   Ever since the early days of SIMH and PUPS I've been a fan of the idea of being able to help others discover and run ancient Unix. 




It's amazing how fast things moved when looking back at the 5 years after the wide stream adoption of the 80386, and how many things have risen and fallen in that time period, how many failed to only come back and win. 




1988-1993 was so incredibly pivotal, much more than say 2014-2019.  I wonder if we will ever see such a powerful window of change like that ever again. 




Definitely a happy birthday to 386BSD!






From: Michael Huff


Sent: Sunday, July 14, 4:18 PM


Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re:  Happy birthday, 386BSD!)


To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org






Hi


Personally, I'm very grateful for the amount of time you've spent not simply finding and posting the things you do (this, cmu mach, the BSD and Unix stuff) but also the blog entries you write that spell out the steps you take to get it all running. 


As someone who came along much later (slackware 3.5?, freebsd 2.2-something) but has a lot of interest/curiosity about what the older days were like it's very helpful and illuminating. 


Oh! ...and of course, Happy Birthday 386BSD!


Regards,


-a Virtuallyfun fan/reader


On 7/13/2019 10:53 PM, Jason Stevens wrote:


Getting this to build was such a tremendous effort.  Although last time I revisited my 386BSD 0.0 work even under emulation it ran too fast and had issues. 




But it's really a tremendous effort what Bill and Lynne had done, by pushing out not only a running version of Net/2 but a self hosting version of Net/2 for the lowly and utterly common and commodity 386.




Its a shame the BSDSS and later N2SS from CMU (ports of 4.4 / Net/2) to Mach 3.  But that USL vs BSDi/CSRG lawsuit cut short what should have the shot heard around the world moment. 




It was shockingly hard to chase down 386BSD  0.0 just as it was to find NetBSD 0.8 and 0.9




Im just sad I was in the dark about BSD at that time, all the Unix people I knew hid behind their RS/6000s and SUN workstations while me and all my peers were all all running Linux. 




But there is nothing like the feeling of running make world, or building a custom kernel when compared to just running a binary set. 




Since 0.1 is more capable, here is a download for Windows users for it ready to run. 




https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.1.exe/download








On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:57 PM +0800, "Dave Horsfall" <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:





386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just about everything). -- Dave 
















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From mah at mhorton.net  Mon Jul 15 13:21:19 2019
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2019 20:21:19 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Historical Usenet maps
In-Reply-To: <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
References: <c43a0f17-276e-d023-4cf2-d42f072b05f6@mhorton.net>
 <03f3d34a-bc7f-4b26-559e-101ccd614ef3@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <6c904e45-4ce7-5c74-8b5e-7551c2ec8a9d@mhorton.net>

Thanks to everyone who came to the celebration in Seattle!

If you missed it and want your own copy of historical (old) Usenet maps, 
you can download it now.

I have updated the PDF online to include everything that was in the 
display copy. The full copy is at http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/ .  
ThisPDF  is intended to be printed, because most of the pages are in 
landscape.

     Mary Ann

On 7/9/19 9:28 AM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
> I've succeeded in copying the files from floppy. Thanks to everyone 
> for the great suggestions!
>
> I used a USB-to-serial adapter, combined with PuTTY and the usual 
> serial tools (DB-9 to DB-25 adapter, gender changer, and null modem). 
> I even dug out my AT&T PC 6300 MS DOS manual for details on writing 
> BAT files (although the main script had a bad habit of exiting after 
> the first file got copied). I wound up calling a 3 line script 
> separately for each file to be copied over, and using PuTTY's 
> scrolling history to save the files.
>
> I've collected these and other old Usenet maps here:
>
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/
>
> I hope to display these (and hand out a few copies!) in Seattle this 
> week.
>
> Does anyone have anything put together that can easily do the "leroy" 
> thing described here:
>
> http://www.stargatemuseum.org/maps/032383.GRF.txt
>
> and produce the graphical map it contains?
>
>     Mary Ann
>
> On 6/23/19 4:10 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>> Hunting around through my ancient stuff today, I ran across a 5.25" 
>> floppy drive labeled as having old Usenet maps. These may have 
>> historical interest.
>>
>> First off, I don't recognize the handwriting on the disk. It's not 
>> mine. Does anyone recognize it? (pic attached)
>>
>> I dug out my AT&T 6300 (XT clone) from the garage and booted it up. 
>> The floppy reads just fine. It has files with .MAP extension, which 
>> are ASCII Usenet maps from 1980 to 1984, and some .BBM files which 
>> are ASCII Usenet backbone maps up to 1987.
>>
>> There is also a file whose extension is .GRF from 1983 which claims 
>> to be a graphical Usenet map.  Does anyone have any idea what GRF is 
>> or what this map might be? I recall Brian Reid having a plotter-based 
>> Usenet geographic map in 84 or 85.
>>
>> I'd like to copy these files off for posterity. They read on DOS just 
>> fine. Is there a current best practice for copying off files? I would 
>> have guessed I'd need a to use the serial port, but my old PC has DOS 
>> 2.11 (not much serial copying software on it) and I don't have 
>> anything live with a serial port anymore. And it might not help with 
>> the GRF file.
>>
>> I took some photos of the screen with the earliest maps (the ones 
>> that fit on one screen.) So it's an option to type things in, at 
>> least for the early ASCII ones.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>     Mary Ann
>>
>>

From pnr at planet.nl  Mon Jul 15 18:51:04 2019
From: pnr at planet.nl (Paul Ruizendaal)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 10:51:04 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] VMS / Unix and old CSRG paper
Message-ID: <B644F626-8A2E-4CEB-9A4F-218F05ECC078@planet.nl>

As the last week had a discussion on this list about various VMS+Unix projects from that era, maybe it is a good time to ask the below question again:

For a while I have been searching for a 1982 tech report from CSRG:

"TR/4 (Proposals for the Enhancement of Unix on the Vax)"

This report later evolved into TR/5, the 4.2BSD manual, but I’m specifically looking for TR/4.

The only reference that I have for TR/4 is contained in a 1982 discussion about VMS vs. Unix:

https://tech-insider.org/vms/research/1982/0111.html (seek for message 5854 from Bill Mitchell).

Clutching at straws here, but maybe a copy survived in a box with VMS+Unix materials.

Wbr,

Paul



From wobblygong at gmail.com  Mon Jul 15 19:33:53 2019
From: wobblygong at gmail.com (Wesley Parish)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 21:33:53 +1200
Subject: [TUHS] Thanks for Virtuallyfun! (was Re: Happy birthday,
 386BSD!)
In-Reply-To: <20190714191907.3B48618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190714191907.3B48618C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CACNPpea2VBXrxYHeQjo4oESKryg+89n4--Z_CRPeQ26du=macw@mail.gmail.com>

I think that's the hallmark of great engineering, period. Mechanical,
civil, electrical ... most probably gravitational if our species ever
gets that far ... :)

Wesley Parish

On 7/15/19, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>     > From: Adam Thornton
>
>     > something designed for single-threaded composible text-filtering
>     > operations is now running almost all of the world's multithreaded
>     > user-facing graphical applications, but that's the vagaries of
> history
>     > for you.
>
> It's a perfect example of my aphorism, "The hallmark of truly great
> architecture is not how well it does the things it was designed to do, but
> how
> well it does things it was never expected to handle."
>
>        Noel
>

From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Mon Jul 15 22:05:02 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:05:02 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Turing to be on 50-pound note
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp_hxMg49O3PpSojURzKVSRzXHY4T3ZHZahi5cwZYVgS4Q@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/15/business/alan-turing-50-pound-note.html?action=click&module=Latest&pgtype=Homepage
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From clemc at ccc.com  Tue Jul 16 01:27:32 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 11:27:32 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] VMS / Unix and old CSRG paper
In-Reply-To: <B644F626-8A2E-4CEB-9A4F-218F05ECC078@planet.nl>
References: <B644F626-8A2E-4CEB-9A4F-218F05ECC078@planet.nl>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2M3x2shw4+5KaJR98hXyYm2-kfOO=Km-WD2a72L-wV+7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 4:59 AM Paul Ruizendaal <pnr at planet.nl> wrote:

> For a while I have been searching for a 1982 tech report from CSRG:
>
> "TR/4 (Proposals for the Enhancement of Unix on the Vax)"
>
I certainly had it at one time, although its possible that was some of the
paper I lost in the flood of a few years ago.   I've added it a list of
documents, I'm trying to find as something that is missing from the
archives.    This week at LCM+L I realized how much of my stuff has some
value [they are missing a lot interesting stuff as Mary Ann pointed out],
 so my wife is thrilled to hear there is place for some of my archive to go.

Now if I can find the time to sort through it....

Clem
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Tue Jul 16 19:32:56 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 17:32:56 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86
Message-ID: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

For anyone that is interested, there is 2 files on Kirk’s DVD that don’t appear on the CD’s

mach.86-accent
mach.86

The smaller mach.86-accent is a few months newer than the other, and is strictly the kernel.  mach.86 contains 
stuff like the libraries for mach, bindings for pascal, along with an updated libc, and various binaries to run under
4.3BSD.  It appears that the Mach project at that time was pretty much in step with the CSRG release.

Speaking of pascal, the early version of MIG is actually written in pascal.  There is quite a #ifdef ACCENT stuff in the code
As well.  So the bindings are more than something superficial.

I had a major issue trying to use RA81 disks on SIMH, although switching to RP06’s seemed to have made things a 
little more stable, the larger issue seems to have been the async I/O code, and disabling that increased stability
and reduced disk corruption greatly.

Setting up the build involved copying files from the ‘cs’ directory to their respective homes, along with the ‘mach/bin/m*’
commands to the /bin directory.  Configuring the kernel is very much like a standard BSD kernel config, however the directory
needs to exist beforehand, and instead of the in path config command run the config command in the local directory.

I have been able to self host a kernel, and build a good portion of world before I realized that the I/O was probably what I was
Fighting and went back and restored the 4.3 tape back onto the HP’s and just re-built the kernel to verify it works.  For those
Wanting the command for SIMH it’s simply ‘set noasync’.  The XU adapter worked out of the box with a simple:

set xu ena
att xu nat:tcp=42323:10.0.2.15:23

Which allowed me to telnet into the VAX, making things much easier than dealing with the console.

While this kernel does have mentions of multi processor support I haven’t quite figured out what models (if any) are supported
On the VAX, and if SIMH emulates them.  While http://www.oboguev.net/vax_mp/ has a very interesting looking multiprocessor VAX
Emulation it’s a fictional model based on the microvax, which I’m pretty sure 4.3BSD/Mach’86 is far too old for.


And for those who like the gratuitious dmesg, this is a self hosted Mach build

loading hp(0,0)boot
Boot
: hp(0,0)vmunix
393480+61408+138472 start 0x1fa5
Vax boot: memory from 0x92000 to 0x800000
Kernel virtual space from 0x80000000 to 0x82000000.
Mach/4.3/2/1 #1: compiled in /usr/mk/MACH on wb2.cs.cmu.edu at Mon Oct 20 12:54:42 1986
physical memory = 8.00 megabytes.
available memory = 5.86 megabytes.
using 408 buffers containing 0.79 megabytes of memory
VAX 11/780, serial#1234(0), hardware ECO level=7(0)
mcr0 at tr1
mcr1 at tr2
uba0 at tr3
zs0 at uba0 csr 172520 vec 224, ipl 15
ts0 at zs0 slave 0
dz0 at uba0 csr 160100 vec 300, ipl 15
de0 at uba0 csr 174510 vec 120, ipl 15
de0: hardware address 08:00:2b:0d:d1:48
mba0 at tr8
hp0 at mba0 drive 0
hp1 at mba0 drive 1
hp2 at mba0 drive 2
hp3 at mba0 drive 7
Changing root device to hp0a

I uploaded my SIMH config, along with the RP06 disk images here:  https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/Mach86.zip/download
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From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Jul 17 05:34:39 2019
From: b4 at gewt.net (Madeline Autumn-Rose)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:34:39 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86
In-Reply-To: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <7dd0b654-d861-4290-8534-a103d28bbf10@www.fastmail.com>



On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 02:33, Jason Stevens wrote:
> Emulation it’s a fictional model based on the microvax, which I’m pretty sure 4.3BSD/Mach’86 is far too old for.


There are strings in the kernel for the MicroVAX I/II:
VAX 8600, serial#%d(%d), hardware ECO level=%d(%d)
VAX 820X, urev=%d, patch rev=%d, cpu rev=%d
VAX 11/78%c, serial#%d(%d), hardware ECO level=%d(%d)
VAX 11/750, hardware level=%d, microcode level=%d
MicroVAX-I, hardware level=%d, %c-Float microcode level=%d
MicroVAX-II (with%s FPU, SYSCODE:%d, ROM Rev:%d)
--
 Madeline Autumn-Rose
 b4 at gewt.net

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From b4 at gewt.net  Wed Jul 17 05:26:10 2019
From: b4 at gewt.net (Madeline Autumn-Rose)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 12:26:10 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86
In-Reply-To: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <cea17418-bc8b-44a3-960a-f1b51e6af0e3@www.fastmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 02:33, Jason Stevens wrote: 
> I uploaded my SIMH config, along with the RP06 disk images here: https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/Mach86.zip/download


`ps` is a little unhappy. Hmm. Wonder why.

myname# ps aux
USER PID %CPU %MEM SZ RSS TT STAT TIME COMMAND
ps: cant read u for pid -26328 from /dev/drum
ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem
ps: cant read u for pid -15008 from /dev/drum
ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem
ps: cant read u for pid -32767 from /dev/drum
ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem
ps: cant read u for pid 0 from /dev/drum
ps: cant read u for pid 0 from /dev/drum
ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 124 from /dev/kmem

I don't think those PIDs should be negative. :)
--
 Madeline Autumn-Rose
 b4 at gewt.net

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From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Wed Jul 17 06:50:57 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 16:50:57 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Another pioneer gone
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp-DFecVU-+q3Xjb5h+jzxLu1_4R2aB51c_u+e=YSsMGqg@mail.gmail.com>

Fernando Corbato died last Friday.

http://news.mit.edu/2019/mit-professor-emeritus-fernando-corby-corbato-computing-pioneer-dies-0715
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From mah at mhorton.net  Wed Jul 17 09:55:22 2019
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton Gmail)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 16:55:22 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrL_1+4QsSnDjKJZxWqGeaQmRokdSeqjx0ZKnYj9p=zhg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <fbb5c4b2-1e21-8770-78de-8895c239aced@solar.stanford.edu>
 <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com>
 <CAC20D2N_PsKMrkKqDYFmHDcb1mEj-hAOPVkxY8jWxS8d_KTUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190714002111.GA14567@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CANCZdfrL_1+4QsSnDjKJZxWqGeaQmRokdSeqjx0ZKnYj9p=zhg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <993420f2-a294-476a-f4ce-9d492b133a2d@mhorton.net>

I took a few photos and put them on Facebook.  I just made the posting 
public.

https://www.facebook.com/maryannhorton/posts/10157414501692065

     Mary Ann

On 7/13/19 5:22 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 6:21 PM Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org 
> <mailto:wkt at tuhs.org>> wrote:
>
>     On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:53:18AM -0700, Clem Cole wrote:
>     >    You all are most welcome and thank you for being a part of
>     it.  A party
>     >    is about the people that come and enjoy each other.  The truth is
>     >    Stephen Jones, Aaron Alcorn, Rich Alderson and their
>     wonderful team at
>     >    LCM+L and the folks at SDF made it so.  What a wonderful
>     venue and
>     >    super hosts.   I truly hope folks on this list can support their
>     >    efforts.  They have a gem and as a community, we can thank
>     them enough
>     >    for keeping so much alive.
>     >    Clem
>
>     Yes, thanks so much for all involved in the LCM+L event. I wish I
>     could have
>     been there. If you took photos/videos of the event, or any at the
>     Usenix ATC,
>     could you put them up somewhere for us (me) to see!
>
>
>
> Yea. That would be great...
>
> Warner
>
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Wed Jul 17 10:04:35 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 00:04:35 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86
In-Reply-To: <cea17418-bc8b-44a3-960a-f1b51e6af0e3@www.fastmail.com>
References: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <cea17418-bc8b-44a3-960a-f1b51e6af0e3@www.fastmail.com>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.277366cf-d5af-45d9-974d-4ba7315d3a2a@mail.outlook.com>

Mach has its own ps.  The problem is that it just dumps core.  I rebuilt it from inside the source, and it has some weird pathing issues, but it dumps core too.




At that point I kind of gave up.




One fun thing is searching the boot string reveals exactly one machine running this build.  Although I would imagine that they probably have nothing left of this.. 




#N	thrash


#S	DEC VAX 11/785; Mach/4.3/2/1


#O	Princeton University, Department of Computer Science


#C	Pat Parseghian


#E	princeton!pep


#T	+1 609 452 6261


#P	Engineering Quadrangle, Princeton, NJ 08544


#L	40 21 N / 74 40 W


#W	princeton!pep (Pat Parseghian); Mon Nov	 6 18:19:19 EST 1989




Get Outlook for Android







On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 3:37 AM +0800, "Madeline Autumn-Rose" <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:










On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 02:33, Jason Stevens wrote: 


I uploaded my SIMH config, along with the RP06 disk images here:  https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/Mach86.zip/download

`ps` is a little unhappy. Hmm. Wonder why.

myname# ps aux
USER       PID %CPU %MEM   SZ  RSS TT STAT  TIME COMMAND
ps: cant read u for pid -26328 from /dev/drum
ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem
ps: cant read u for pid -15008 from /dev/drum
ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem
ps: cant read u for pid -32767 from /dev/drum
ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 0 from /dev/kmem
ps: cant read u for pid 0 from /dev/drum
ps: cant read u for pid 0 from /dev/drum
ps: cant read indir pte to get u for pid 124 from /dev/kmem

I don't think those PIDs should be negative. :)
--
  Madeline Autumn-Rose
  b4 at gewt.net







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From krewat at kilonet.net  Wed Jul 17 10:17:13 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 20:17:13 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Unix 50th celebration
In-Reply-To: <993420f2-a294-476a-f4ce-9d492b133a2d@mhorton.net>
References: <fbb5c4b2-1e21-8770-78de-8895c239aced@solar.stanford.edu>
 <87a7diem5w.fsf@loomcom.com>
 <CAC20D2N_PsKMrkKqDYFmHDcb1mEj-hAOPVkxY8jWxS8d_KTUwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190714002111.GA14567@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CANCZdfrL_1+4QsSnDjKJZxWqGeaQmRokdSeqjx0ZKnYj9p=zhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <993420f2-a294-476a-f4ce-9d492b133a2d@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <faea5b94-cb93-46f4-1203-2c18f01ce46f@kilonet.net>

Awesome stuff, Mary Ann ;)


On 7/16/2019 7:55 PM, Mary Ann Horton Gmail wrote:
>
> I took a few photos and put them on Facebook.  I just made the posting 
> public.
>
> https://www.facebook.com/maryannhorton/posts/10157414501692065
>
>     Mary Ann
>
> On 7/13/19 5:22 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 13, 2019, 6:21 PM Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org 
>> <mailto:wkt at tuhs.org>> wrote:
>>
>>     On Sat, Jul 13, 2019 at 10:53:18AM -0700, Clem Cole wrote:
>>     >    You all are most welcome and thank you for being a part of
>>     it.  A party
>>     >    is about the people that come and enjoy each other.  The
>>     truth is
>>     >    Stephen Jones, Aaron Alcorn, Rich Alderson and their
>>     wonderful team at
>>     >    LCM+L and the folks at SDF made it so.  What a wonderful
>>     venue and
>>     >    super hosts.   I truly hope folks on this list can support their
>>     >    efforts.  They have a gem and as a community, we can thank
>>     them enough
>>     >    for keeping so much alive.
>>     >    Clem
>>
>>     Yes, thanks so much for all involved in the LCM+L event. I wish I
>>     could have
>>     been there. If you took photos/videos of the event, or any at the
>>     Usenix ATC,
>>     could you put them up somewhere for us (me) to see!
>>
>>
>>
>> Yea. That would be great...
>>
>> Warner
>>

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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Wed Jul 17 10:38:46 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 00:38:46 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!
In-Reply-To: <20190714062312.GA50604@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <20190714062312.GA50604@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.77affc7d-ee11-4fc2-9e54-2d388dcea179@mail.outlook.com>

I dug out my booting copy of 0.0




https://sourceforge.net/projects/bsd42/files/4BSD%20under%20Windows/v0.4/386BSD-0.0-with-bochs.7z/download




It runs under bochs.  It's very rough back then, it doesn't run in multiuser, and it's missing a bunch of stuff, making it as distributed impossible to self host.  I had to add in the net2 userland stuff myself to build the kernel, although that isn't in this dump. 




After booting you have to run :




fsck -p


mount -a


update


/etc/netstart




There is no nvi/vi instead elvis is supplied. Naturally many were dismissive of 0.0 as it barely ran. In the months that followed 0.1 was much more complete even running in multi user!  The real magic was in the patch kits, culminating in #24 if I'm remembering it right, which was then followed up with the schisim and NetBSD 0.8, which is really just 386BSD with all the patches applied... That version was impossible to track down, and oddly enough surfaced after I managed to rebuild it by filling in parts from the source control and a bit of work. 




It's a little late for 'on this day' type thing but it's not lost to the winds of time. 






From: Greg 'groggy' Lehey


Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2:24 PM


Subject: Re: [TUHS] Happy birthday, 386BSD!


To: Dave Horsfall


Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society






On Sunday, 14 July 2019 at 16:15:44 +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote: > On Sunday, 14 July 2019 at 15:56:21 +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote: >> 386BSD was released on this day in 1992, when William and Lynne Jolitz >> started the Open Source movement; well, that's what my notes say, and >> corrections are welcome (I know that Gilmore likes to take credit for just >> about everything). > > Yes, I recall a release on the French national holiday, with specific > reference to that event, Here we go (http://gunkies.org/wiki/386BSD_0.1_announcement): 386BSD Release 0.1 "Cut the Tape" 14 July 1992 (Bastille Day) "Vive la Revolution" Greg -- Sent from my desktop computer. Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key. See complete headers for address and phone numbers. This message is digitally signed. If your Microsoft mail program reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA 




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From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed Jul 17 17:33:53 2019
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:33:53 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86
In-Reply-To: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <c5060501-a99d-6ac1-7e14-0f8265f6a365@e-bbes.com>

On 2019-07-16 11:32, Jason Stevens wrote:

> While this kernel does have mentions of multi processor support I
> haven’t quite figured out what models (if any) are supported
> 
> On the VAX, and if SIMH emulates them.  While
> http://www.oboguev.net/vax_mp/ has a very interesting looking
> multiprocessor VAX

The only one I can think of is the 11/782 in this time frame.
The next experiment, the 3520/3540 were much later, and probably slower ;-)

Cheers

From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed Jul 17 17:37:44 2019
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:37:44 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>

On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...

"Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...

Cheers



From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Jul 17 18:10:14 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 02:10:14 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>

emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:

> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
>
> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
>
> Cheers
>

Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
time Solaris 2.x came along.

And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup
company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then
eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the
BSD fast file system.

Arnold

From arrigo at alchemistowl.org  Wed Jul 17 19:28:42 2019
From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:28:42 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>

On 17 Jul 2019, at 10:10, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
>>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
>> 
>> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
>> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
> 
> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> time Solaris 2.x came along.
> 
> And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup
> company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then
> eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the
> BSD fast file system.

Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.

Arrigo


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Wed Jul 17 20:09:19 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 18:09:19 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
Message-ID: <d853c8a2-f66f-43eb-8189-f86a2f49289d@PU1APC01FT113.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

The only non American one I was aware of came from Brazil, TROPIX.
http://allegro.nce.ufrj.br/tropix/index.html

I’d written a small thing about it here
https://virtuallyfun.com/wordpress/2009/06/18/tropix/

I’ve seen mention of something out of Sweden, although nothing concrete on the name.

There is also Демос/DEMOS the BSD code that had been stolen during the cold war, and ported to various Soviet machines & localized.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Arrigo Triulzi
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 6:01 PM
To: arnold at skeeve.com
Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386

On 17 Jul 2019, at 10:10, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
>>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
>> 
>> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
>> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
>> 
>> Cheers
>> 
> 
> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> time Solaris 2.x came along.
> 
> And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup
> company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then
> eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the
> BSD fast file system.

Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.

Arrigo

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From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed Jul 17 20:42:51 2019
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:42:51 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
Message-ID: <c12e13df-bb13-54d9-ac5b-e1ef12b5c6a1@e-bbes.com>

On 2019-07-17 11:28, Arrigo Triulzi wrote:

> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

In Germany, there was MUNIX (sometimes called "Münchener UNIX ;-) )
The company was PCS, they had the funny idea of replacing the PDP11 or
VAX board on the Q-Bus with Motorolas m68k hardware. So you still could
use your old peripherals (tape, drives, printers, etc.) with a new CPU,
running UNIX ...


From ben at cogs.com  Wed Jul 17 22:32:05 2019
From: ben at cogs.com (Ben Greenfield)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:32:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
Message-ID: <CC8EDA3A-B185-41DB-A6F6-6C7FC503E067@cogs.com>



> On Jul 17, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo at alchemistowl.org> wrote:
> 
> On 17 Jul 2019, at 10:10, arnold at skeeve.com <mailto:arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>> 
>> emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
>>>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
>>> 
>>> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
>>> Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
>>> 
>>> Cheers
>>> 
>> 
>> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
>> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
>> time Solaris 2.x came along.
>> 
>> And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup
>> company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then
>> eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the
>> BSD fast file system.
> 
> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time.

https://www.computerhistory.org/revolution/memory-storage/8/264/1115

https://www.hnf.de/en/permanent-exhibition/exhibition-areas/nixdorf-pioneer-of-decentralized-data-processing/the-products-of-nixdorf-computer-ag.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixdorf_Computer

> 
> I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.

Maybe here.

http://www.technikum29.de/en/

Let me know what you find out regarding the Nixdorf 820. I happen to have my friends dad’s old one…

Keep Digging,

Ben


> 
> Arrigo

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From dam at opencsw.org  Wed Jul 17 22:50:44 2019
From: dam at opencsw.org (Dagobert Michelsen)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:50:44 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CC8EDA3A-B185-41DB-A6F6-6C7FC503E067@cogs.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <CC8EDA3A-B185-41DB-A6F6-6C7FC503E067@cogs.com>
Message-ID: <8C00FE44-2735-4B5C-ABE8-EAB0985C6432@opencsw.org>

Hi,

Am 17.07.2019 um 14:32 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>:
> On Jul 17, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo at alchemistowl.org> wrote:
>> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).
> 
> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time.

There was also Sinix from Siemens that was derived from Reliant Unix:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SINIX
  https://web.archive.org/web/20120324121229/http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/siemens/rmunix

Unfortunately I didn’t have had much exposure to it and don’t own any install media or such :-/


Best regards

  — Dago

-- 
"You don't become great by trying to be great, you become great by wanting to do something,
and then doing it so hard that you become great in the process." - xkcd #896


From arrigo at alchemistowl.org  Wed Jul 17 23:38:48 2019
From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:38:48 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <8C00FE44-2735-4B5C-ABE8-EAB0985C6432@opencsw.org>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <CC8EDA3A-B185-41DB-A6F6-6C7FC503E067@cogs.com>
 <8C00FE44-2735-4B5C-ABE8-EAB0985C6432@opencsw.org>
Message-ID: <C9D31084-9FE0-48E4-A3F3-C777FC4AEF0A@alchemistowl.org>

On 17 Jul 2019, at 14:50, Dagobert Michelsen <dam at opencsw.org> wrote:
> Am 17.07.2019 um 14:32 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>:
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 5:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo at alchemistowl.org> wrote:
>>> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).
>> 
>> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time.
> 
> There was also Sinix from Siemens that was derived from Reliant Unix:
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SINIX
>  https://web.archive.org/web/20120324121229/http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/siemens/rmunix
> 
> Unfortunately I didn’t have had much exposure to it and don’t own any install media or such :-/

Yes, indeed there were many, in Germany, France, Spain, Italy, etc. but, unlike the USA, there is nobody apparently trying to keep it all together.

Is the Deutsche Museum in Munich doing something about German IT history like the Computer History Museum in California?

In the UK there’s the Historical Computing group within the BCS who publish a frequent newsletter with their work, they have exhibits at Bletchley Park and they took it upon them to write the histories of the Lyons, ICL, AMT, Inmos, etc.

I was recently trying to find something about Olivetti’s Unix: Olivetti re-branded the AT&T 3B2 and AT&T re-branded their beautiful M24 on which I briefly used Xenix for the 8086 (I *think* it was branded Xenix) but it was just a US UNIX version which spoke English.

Arrigo


From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Jul 18 00:12:05 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:12:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Mach'86
In-Reply-To: <c5060501-a99d-6ac1-7e14-0f8265f6a365@e-bbes.com>
References: <4c433dc6-6958-4b1d-aaf9-a84adaff7f01@PU1APC01FT114.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <c5060501-a99d-6ac1-7e14-0f8265f6a365@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2N8dPnS6yms7oQXBJmJX=jfqvEGTQ8DPa22qgukpmar3Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 3:56 AM emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:

> On 2019-07-16 11:32, Jason Stevens wrote:
>
> > While this kernel does have mentions of multi processor support I
> > haven’t quite figured out what models (if any) are supported
>
> Historically, the Mach MP work was done on an Encore system not Vaxen but
I've forgotten which model and what the processor was.  I wanted to say
Encore used the NS 16032, but I'm not willing to go out on a limb on that
thought.   Bob Baron, Mike Accetta or Rich Rashid probably remembers.  You
might look at the code for Encore support, and that might give you a hint.
  FWIW:   I've lost track of Bob who was at Pitt last time I knew, but Mike
is still at Microsoft.  I believe I heard Rich retired, but I'm not sure of
that.
Clem
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From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Jul 18 00:15:23 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:15:23 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <CAC20D2N06MjZEmfMwMZWGfAvb6KnBrk3WdEG8nHY8_RoPV98Zw@mail.gmail.com>

RR and the ISC products were different.  RR was done in Billerica, MA and
ran a variant of SunOS [FWIW: some of the RR guys came to Stellar work on
the HW team].

ISC did the 386 port for Intel/ATT/IBM much earlier than that.   Later, as
was pointed out, Sun ended up with the IP when they bought it from Kodak.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 4:10 AM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

> emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
>
> > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
> >
> > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
>
> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> time Solaris 2.x came along.
>
> And, I *do* remember ESIX. We used it for our product at a startup
> company I worked for. Initially System V R3 based, IIRC, and then
> eventually SVR4; I think we saw an improvement moving to the
> BSD fast file system.
>
> Arnold
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Jul 18 00:34:51 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:34:51 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NpUKseyiOTcQpCFATpW0TMdAtz1HUKzmBcmzY2mUP77Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 5:28 AM Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo at alchemistowl.org>
wrote:

> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the
> Unix-like operating systems?

Yes, I talk about it in my paper in the digital release of volume *CNAM
Historical Booklets* including your respective texts.

http://technique-societe.cnam.fr/la-recherche-sur-les-systemes-des-pivots-dans-l-histoire-de-l-informatique-ii-ii-988170.kjsp?RH=cdhte



Note the web site is in French, and all the papers are A4 format, some are
French some are in English (like mine own).   [Send me email off line if
you want a copy of the paper and don't want try to get the whole thing].



> For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on
> Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it
> for no mare than about two hours..).
>
Close, not quite.  Contemporaries but not the same.

Chorus was a C++ rewrite of Gien's Pascal based 'SOL' systems [Gien M.
(1983). “The SOL Operating System”, USENIX Association, 1983, Proceedings
of the Summer ‘83 USENIX Conference, Toronto, Canada, July, 1983, Pages
75-78.]



>
> I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix
> (and not only Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in
> Europe.

Fair, although not completely true.  USENIX and it's European sisters did a
number of conferences back in the day.  If we missed, other than Australia,
we probably did less in Asia that we could have.   The truth was that the
European's wanted to be published in the ACM or USENIX pubs (just like most
American's and Brits wanted to publish in the Swiss and German journals for
Physics and Chemistry in the 30s and 40s).

But I think a lot of us in the community, certainly were aware of the lot
of cool things happening 'across the pond.'    Please don't sell yourself
and your non-North American sisters and brothers so short.



> I wouldn’t even know where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history
> is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues
> in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.
>
That's a shame to hear.  I hope we can find more of it.
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From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Jul 18 00:41:27 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:41:27 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CC8EDA3A-B185-41DB-A6F6-6C7FC503E067@cogs.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <CC8EDA3A-B185-41DB-A6F6-6C7FC503E067@cogs.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2P2en1WyU3m+sLiWq_NMqUf+AQ8Jon-VwKrBVa3m2wy0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:39 AM Ben Greenfield via TUHS <
tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:

>
> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the
> large computer company at that time.
>
Both Nixdorf and Siemens were heavy into UNIX.  Both were founders of OSF.
  Nixdorf OEM'ed a couple of machines from US firms, as well as making
their own.   Siemens and Philips both trended to make their own systems.
IIRC Philips was mostly in the AT&T Camp at the time.  Olivetti was
definitely since one of the original 386 systems AT&T tried to sell was
their PC (in fact was one of systems ISC used for the original 386 UNIX
port - supplied by AT&T).
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From ben at cogs.com  Thu Jul 18 01:08:30 2019
From: ben at cogs.com (Ben Greenfield)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 11:08:30 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2P2en1WyU3m+sLiWq_NMqUf+AQ8Jon-VwKrBVa3m2wy0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <CC8EDA3A-B185-41DB-A6F6-6C7FC503E067@cogs.com>
 <CAC20D2P2en1WyU3m+sLiWq_NMqUf+AQ8Jon-VwKrBVa3m2wy0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5BBEAE16-9B06-4336-BEAC-C144B0BF11C7@cogs.com>

Yes, I should have been more careful with my phrasing.

To be more clear the innovations developed by Heinz Nixdorf in the early days of the company did not contribute to Unix but was it also concept and worthy of study.

After Heinz died the company lost direction and was purchased by Siemens.





> On Jul 17, 2019, at 10:41 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:39 AM Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org <mailto:tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
> 
> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the large computer company at that time.
> Both Nixdorf and Siemens were heavy into UNIX.  Both were founders of OSF.   Nixdorf OEM'ed a couple of machines from US firms, as well as making their own.   Siemens and Philips both trended to make their own systems.   IIRC Philips was mostly in the AT&T Camp at the time.  Olivetti was definitely since one of the original 386 systems AT&T tried to sell was their PC (in fact was one of systems ISC used for the original 386 UNIX port - supplied by AT&T).

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From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Jul 18 01:11:01 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:11:01 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
> >
> > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> 
> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> time Solaris 2.x came along.

Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
time just didn't want competition for SPARC.  Which was sort of silly,
a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was
when RISC actually made sense.  But perhaps they had a crystal ball
and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the
road?  I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386.

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Jul 18 01:31:08 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:31:08 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfp5ffndHB1nex=N6fVTyxZvbzPKxud1gTtTZHGcez4vpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 9:11 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
> > >
> > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> > > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> >
> > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> > time Solaris 2.x came along.
>
> Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
> time just didn't want competition for SPARC.  Which was sort of silly,
> a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was
> when RISC actually made sense.  But perhaps they had a crystal ball
> and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the
> road?  I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386.
>

And wasn't it a weird version of SunOS? Support for the Roadrunners was
only in a couple of releases too (4.0, 4.0.1 and 4.0.2 only). Most of the
sunos sources that have fallen off a truck on the internet are 4.0.3 and
newer, so there's no i386 support in them. I used a Sun386/250 at
Wollongong to do testing. Mostly it ran X and was one of the available X
workstations in the testing lab since it was weird enough people didn't
want to use it (though the Sony News box next to it might also have come in
a close second for weird).

The wikipedia page says there was a Sun486 (code named apache) that was
designed and a few built, but that was then cancelled before release.

Warner
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Thu Jul 18 01:36:43 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:36:43 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <c660cd12-8723-44f0-8934-8bb4369fc5ef@PU1APC01FT019.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>

Funny you mention that, I recently pulled this ad from SUN:

https://books.google.com.hk/books/content?id=GTwEAAAAMBAJ&hl=en-US&rview=1&pg=PT8&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U0g2GS1KStkA6HXup3UG31UQdNcwg&w=1280

These days, there’s absolutely no limit to the things you can add to your PCs. Coprocessors. VGA cards. Large scale monitors. Network cards.
But no matter how many thousands of dollars you pour into your PCs, they still can’t give you what you get with every Sun workstation. The screaming-hot performance. The multi-tasking. The high-resolution graphics. And the built-in networking.
And now, we’re introducing a new workstation that makes all the shortcomings of your PCs even more obvious.
SPARCstation™ IPC.
At $8,995*, it’s the lowest cost, full-color RISC workstation in the world. By far. In fact, it’s about the same price as a high-performance 386 PC. But just look at the difference….


Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Larry McVoy
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 11:11 PM
To: arnold at skeeve.com
Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
> 
> > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
> >
> > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> 
> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> time Solaris 2.x came along.

Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
time just didn't want competition for SPARC.  Which was sort of silly,
a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was
when RISC actually made sense.  But perhaps they had a crystal ball
and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the
road?  I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386.

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From athornton at gmail.com  Thu Jul 18 01:40:31 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 08:40:31 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <c12e13df-bb13-54d9-ac5b-e1ef12b5c6a1@e-bbes.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <c12e13df-bb13-54d9-ac5b-e1ef12b5c6a1@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <7DDBED42-22F9-42F9-982D-F15CB1BF51B1@gmail.com>



> On Jul 17, 2019, at 3:42 AM, emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
> 
> On 2019-07-17 11:28, Arrigo Triulzi wrote:
> 
>> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).
> 
> In Germany, there was MUNIX (sometimes called "Münchener UNIX ;-) )
> The company was PCS, they had the funny idea of replacing the PDP11 or
> VAX board on the Q-Bus with Motorolas m68k hardware. So you still could
> use your old peripherals (tape, drives, printers, etc.) with a new CPU,
> running UNIX ...
> 

….see also the current http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone <http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone>

Adam
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From pechter at gmail.com  Thu Jul 18 02:04:16 2019
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:04:16 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2P2en1WyU3m+sLiWq_NMqUf+AQ8Jon-VwKrBVa3m2wy0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <CC8EDA3A-B185-41DB-A6F6-6C7FC503E067@cogs.com>
 <CAC20D2P2en1WyU3m+sLiWq_NMqUf+AQ8Jon-VwKrBVa3m2wy0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5996d146-37d4-4a8e-9a44-fc941bb09c57.maildroid@localhost>

Don't forget Siemens-Nixdorf was a major reseller of Pyramid OS/x and DC/OSx (SysV R4) and eventually they purchased the remnants of Pyramid after AT&T (a major Pyramid shop and OEM) bought NCR and stopped using/selling Pyramid when DC./OSx was just appearing on the Pyramid MIServer MIPS R3000 boxes. 

Bill

Sent from pechter at gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>
To: Ben Greenfield <ben at cogs.com>
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
Sent: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 10:42
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:39 AM Ben Greenfield via TUHS <
tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:

>
> I know that it didn’t run Unix but I believe Nixdorf Computer was the
> large computer company at that time.
>
Both Nixdorf and Siemens were heavy into UNIX.  Both were founders of OSF.
  Nixdorf OEM'ed a couple of machines from US firms, as well as making
their own.   Siemens and Philips both trended to make their own systems.
IIRC Philips was mostly in the AT&T Camp at the time.  Olivetti was
definitely since one of the original 386 systems AT&T tried to sell was
their PC (in fact was one of systems ISC used for the original 386 UNIX
port - supplied by AT&T).
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From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Jul 18 02:56:45 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 09:56:45 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <c660cd12-8723-44f0-8934-8bb4369fc5ef@PU1APC01FT019.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com>
 <c660cd12-8723-44f0-8934-8bb4369fc5ef@PU1APC01FT019.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20190717165645.GF16562@mcvoy.com>

Wow, those came out when I was there, I've done a ton of work on those
machines.  The first Sun cluster was built from them.  But I've never
seen that ad before, it's classic Sun.

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 11:36:43PM +0800, Jason Stevens wrote:
> Funny you mention that, I recently pulled this ad from SUN:
> 
> https://books.google.com.hk/books/content?id=GTwEAAAAMBAJ&hl=en-US&rview=1&pg=PT8&img=1&zoom=3&sig=ACfU3U0g2GS1KStkA6HXup3UG31UQdNcwg&w=1280
> 
> These days, there???s absolutely no limit to the things you can add to your PCs. Coprocessors. VGA cards. Large scale monitors. Network cards.
> But no matter how many thousands of dollars you pour into your PCs, they still can???t give you what you get with every Sun workstation. The screaming-hot performance. The multi-tasking. The high-resolution graphics. And the built-in networking.
> And now, we???re introducing a new workstation that makes all the shortcomings of your PCs even more obvious.
> SPARCstation??? IPC.
> At $8,995*, it???s the lowest cost, full-color RISC workstation in the world. By far. In fact, it???s about the same price as a high-performance 386 PC. But just look at the difference???.
> 
> 
> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
> 
> From: Larry McVoy
> Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 11:11 PM
> To: arnold at skeeve.com
> Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
> 
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 02:10:14AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
> > > > called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
> > >
> > > "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.
> > > Anybody remembers ESIX? Still have the document wall for that ...
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > 
> > Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> > I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> > time Solaris 2.x came along.
> 
> Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
> time just didn't want competition for SPARC.  Which was sort of silly,
> a 386 was nowhere near as fast as the SPARC chips of the day, that was
> when RISC actually made sense.  But perhaps they had a crystal ball
> and could see that x86 was going to be as fast or faster down the
> road?  I tend to doubt it, they really looked down on the 386.
> 

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Jul 18 04:01:21 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 14:01:21 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <7DDBED42-22F9-42F9-982D-F15CB1BF51B1@gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <c12e13df-bb13-54d9-ac5b-e1ef12b5c6a1@e-bbes.com>
 <7DDBED42-22F9-42F9-982D-F15CB1BF51B1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2N92ZscuL_eNbUHi+UAsNX8yv+YUGZ109xwHf_8WE6Y+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 11:40 AM Adam Thornton <athornton at gmail.com> wrote:

> ….see also the current http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone
>
Yeah - these boards are pretty cool.   I think the LCM+L was using either
these or something like them.   The don't use real rotating storage anymore
if they can help it.

[Actually, the coolest thing I saw last week was the core memory
replacement they made for the CDC-6x00 systems.   The cores got too
unreliable.  So they made a board and lucite box that that form and fit
compatible.   They told me a neat story.  It seems after they announced to
the world that they had made it, somebody in the US DoD asked about
availability -- seems some old CDC gear is still in use [which seems like
an application for simh to me].

Clem
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From steve at quintile.net  Thu Jul 18 04:22:28 2019
From: steve at quintile.net (Steve Simon)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 19:22:28 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] European unix-like OS
Message-ID: <F5D10758-A247-4038-95F4-BE6362C1F15D@quintile.net>


Nearly all the unixes i used where from the US, but one stands out.

I spent a week or two trying to get my head around Helios which was aimed at parallel systems (transputer). I believe it was French in origin, and wad unix-like at the command line but the shell supported mesh pipelines and other unique ideas.

interesting but hard to manage..

-Steve



From dam at opencsw.org  Thu Jul 18 07:09:51 2019
From: dam at opencsw.org (Dagobert Michelsen)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 23:09:51 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <5BBEAE16-9B06-4336-BEAC-C144B0BF11C7@cogs.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <CC8EDA3A-B185-41DB-A6F6-6C7FC503E067@cogs.com>
 <CAC20D2P2en1WyU3m+sLiWq_NMqUf+AQ8Jon-VwKrBVa3m2wy0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5BBEAE16-9B06-4336-BEAC-C144B0BF11C7@cogs.com>
Message-ID: <0540C2A3-02C7-4707-97C5-CFC602641852@opencsw.org>

Hi,

Am 17.07.2019 um 17:08 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>:
> To be more clear the innovations developed by Heinz Nixdorf in the early days of the company did not contribute to Unix but was it also concept and worthy of study.
> 
> After Heinz died the company lost direction and was purchased by Siemens.

Indeed. There is btw a very nice collection of european mainframes presented
in a collection at the „Computermuseum“ at the University of Applied Sciences
in Kiel (sorry, webpages in German only):
  https://www.fh-kiel.de/index.php?id=computermuseum
  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computermuseum_der_Fachhochschule_Kiel
The collection of mainframes is quite large and they have a good collection of Zuse
machines (although they lack a working Z1 which is presented in Berlin and if you are
lucky is explained by Horst Zuse, the son of Konrad Zuse).

If you ever happen to be in northern Germany and want to give it a try let me know
and I’ll make sure you get a tour in english :-)


Best regards

  — Dago

-- 
"You don't become great by trying to be great, you become great by wanting to do something,
and then doing it so hard that you become great in the process." - xkcd #896


From cmhanson at eschatologist.net  Thu Jul 18 08:48:16 2019
From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 15:48:16 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re:  PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
Message-ID: <B226C689-DD2F-496F-982B-2C7F56B7EA8F@eschatologist.net>

On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo at alchemistowl.org> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems?

Among others, there is of course Minix.

  -- Chris

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From bakul at bitblocks.com  Thu Jul 18 09:22:36 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 16:22:36 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NpUKseyiOTcQpCFATpW0TMdAtz1HUKzmBcmzY2mUP77Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <CAC20D2NpUKseyiOTcQpCFATpW0TMdAtz1HUKzmBcmzY2mUP77Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <36C1A87C-FA3D-475A-8F6D-894CAE3F2EF7@bitblocks.com>

On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:34 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 5:28 AM Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo at alchemistowl.org> wrote: 
> > For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).
> Close, not quite.  Contemporaries but not the same.
> 
> Chorus was a C++ rewrite of Gien's Pascal based 'SOL' systems [Gien M. (1983). “The SOL Operating System”, USENIX Association, 1983, Proceedings of the Summer ‘83 USENIX Conference, Toronto, Canada, July, 1983, Pages 75-78.]

A good paper on Chorus:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/eab3/b28bebdc202d9c5e2354731bebadf0872aac.pdf

Apparently Chorus was not "unix" until the SOL team joined them in 1984!
Its nucleus seem very much like a microkernel.


From grog at lemis.com  Thu Jul 18 10:04:25 2019
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:04:25 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions,
 was: Re:  PCC for the i386)
In-Reply-To: <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 17 July 2019 at  9:37:44 +0200, emanuel stiebler wrote:
> On 2019-07-11 18:50, A. P. Garcia wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 12:31 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>> Did Sun have anything to do with that? I seem to recall something
>> called "Interactive Unix" for the 386, possibly marketed by Sun...
>
> "Interactive Unix" was pretty nice back than.

I used it in the early 1990s (Interactive UNIX/386, based on System V,
IIRC; there were other versions with different lineage).  My
recollections of it were less positive than yours, maybe only by
comparison.  Installation (hundreds of small components, each with
their own license key) was a nightmare.

In that connection, and by way of comparison, I'm surprised that
nobody has mentioned BSDI's BSD/386 yet, which grew up intimately
related to Jolitz' 386BSD.  Jolitz worked with BSDI until (the
beginning of?) December 1991, when he left due to disagreement with
BSDI's licence model, apparently destroying all his work.

I started using BSD/386 in mid-March 1992, a couple of days before
Jolitz released 386BSD.  In contrast to 386BSD, it was solid,
installed easily, and cost $1000 (with source; I think there were
cheaper binary-only options).  It blew Interactive UNIX out of the
water.  This was a Beta, so I sent reports which I have published at
http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-mar1992.php#18

It's a pity that BSD/386 (later BSD/OS) went away, though later we
incorporated some parts of the kernel into FreeBSD (with BSDI's
permission and blessing, of course; see
http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-jun2000.php).  In contrast to the
other early offerings, it Just Worked.  But the idea of paying for
operating systems seemed to have passed its use-by date.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Jul 18 10:04:58 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:04:58 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <36C1A87C-FA3D-475A-8F6D-894CAE3F2EF7@bitblocks.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <CAC20D2NpUKseyiOTcQpCFATpW0TMdAtz1HUKzmBcmzY2mUP77Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <36C1A87C-FA3D-475A-8F6D-894CAE3F2EF7@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <DC14CF5F-4C61-4393-86A0-EFA11AC1FB52@ccc.com>

It is an uK.  I have a complete set of doc but I don’t think I have the code at this point. Fyi AT&T was supposed to use Chorus for SVR5 but it never shipped. The chorus folks opened an office in Portland Or.  iirc Michel Gien moved out there for a bit.  [We were working for both OSF and ATT at Locus.  Fun times.  ]

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:22 PM, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Jul 17, 2019, at 7:34 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 5:28 AM Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo at alchemistowl.org> wrote: 
>>> For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).
>> Close, not quite.  Contemporaries but not the same.
>> 
>> Chorus was a C++ rewrite of Gien's Pascal based 'SOL' systems [Gien M. (1983). “The SOL Operating System”, USENIX Association, 1983, Proceedings of the Summer ‘83 USENIX Conference, Toronto, Canada, July, 1983, Pages 75-78.]
> 
> A good paper on Chorus:
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/eab3/b28bebdc202d9c5e2354731bebadf0872aac.pdf
> 
> Apparently Chorus was not "unix" until the SOL team joined them in 1984!
> Its nucleus seem very much like a microkernel.
> 

From rich.salz at gmail.com  Thu Jul 18 10:16:59 2019
From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Richard Salz)
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:16:59 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions,
 was: Re: PCC for the i386)
In-Reply-To: <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <CAFH29trdMarQYPsD5uKLUwb2pk+-50U51L8hyG5u7nZAHaKRCQ@mail.gmail.com>

BSD[Ii] got in trouble with AT&T for their sales number, which was
1-800-ITS-UNIX. I don't know if they ever got officially sued or not.
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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Jul 18 11:08:25 2019
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:08:25 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions,
 was: Re: PCC for the i386)
In-Reply-To: <CAFH29trdMarQYPsD5uKLUwb2pk+-50U51L8hyG5u7nZAHaKRCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com>
 <CAFH29trdMarQYPsD5uKLUwb2pk+-50U51L8hyG5u7nZAHaKRCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190718010825.GC73488@eureka.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 17 July 2019 at 20:16:59 -0400, Richard Salz wrote:
> BSD[Ii] got in trouble with AT&T for their sales number, which was
> 1-800-ITS-UNIX.

Correct.

> I don't know if they ever got officially sued or not.

Not for that.  I think they got a "cease and desist" or whatever it's
called, and they changed their number.  They were, however, the main
group that got sued in the Unix wars, along with UCB, but not the free
BSDs.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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From wobblygong at gmail.com  Thu Jul 18 18:39:33 2019
From: wobblygong at gmail.com (Wesley Parish)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 20:39:33 +1200
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <B226C689-DD2F-496F-982B-2C7F56B7EA8F@eschatologist.net>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <B226C689-DD2F-496F-982B-2C7F56B7EA8F@eschatologist.net>
Message-ID: <CACNPpeaXs=v4jubfhY0TTqLpzVjp7AC_hyO0mn6dTCLcauS1Hw@mail.gmail.com>

And Robert Switzer's Tunix as laid out in his Operating Systems: A
Practical Approach. Used the SysVR3 API iirc, as opposed to the 7th
Edition Minix of 1987.

Wesley Parish

On 7/18/19, Chris Hanson <cmhanson at eschatologist.net> wrote:
> On Jul 17, 2019, at 2:28 AM, Arrigo Triulzi <arrigo at alchemistowl.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the
>> Unix-like operating systems?
>
> Among others, there is of course Minix.
>
>   -- Chris
>
>

From arrigo at alchemistowl.org  Thu Jul 18 18:56:08 2019
From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:56:08 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <0540C2A3-02C7-4707-97C5-CFC602641852@opencsw.org>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <46FC947C-F150-4835-A858-3EE05A394A6A@alchemistowl.org>
 <CC8EDA3A-B185-41DB-A6F6-6C7FC503E067@cogs.com>
 <CAC20D2P2en1WyU3m+sLiWq_NMqUf+AQ8Jon-VwKrBVa3m2wy0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5BBEAE16-9B06-4336-BEAC-C144B0BF11C7@cogs.com>
 <0540C2A3-02C7-4707-97C5-CFC602641852@opencsw.org>
Message-ID: <1BA04EFA-1E15-44E4-AA6D-631CAE53B3A2@alchemistowl.org>

On 17 Jul 2019, at 23:09, Dagobert Michelsen <dam at opencsw.org> wrote:
> Am 17.07.2019 um 17:08 schrieb Ben Greenfield via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>:
>> To be more clear the innovations developed by Heinz Nixdorf in the early days of the company did not contribute to Unix but was it also concept and worthy of study.
>> 
>> After Heinz died the company lost direction and was purchased by Siemens.
> 
> Indeed. There is btw a very nice collection of european mainframes presented
> in a collection at the „Computermuseum“ at the University of Applied Sciences
> in Kiel (sorry, webpages in German only):
>  https://www.fh-kiel.de/index.php?id=computermuseum
>  https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computermuseum_der_Fachhochschule_Kiel

Fantastic! Now not only should I visit Berlin but also Kiel and, in the meantime, I can get some sailing in! 

Arrigo


From chet.ramey at case.edu  Fri Jul 19 01:01:06 2019
From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey)
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:01:06 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions,
 was: Re: PCC for the i386)
In-Reply-To: <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <20190718000425.GB73488@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <714626ee-af90-4806-7f24-339d842a220d@case.edu>

On 7/17/19 8:04 PM, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> I started using BSD/386 in mid-March 1992, a couple of days before
> Jolitz released 386BSD.  In contrast to 386BSD, it was solid,
> installed easily, and cost $1000 (with source; I think there were
> cheaper binary-only options).  It blew Interactive UNIX out of the
> water.  This was a Beta, so I sent reports which I have published at
> http://www.lemis.com/grog/diary-mar1992.php#18

Agreed. We used BSD/386 and BSD/OS pretty heavily at Case. We ran a
significant portion of the infrastructure services on it. It was
solid.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet at case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/

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From rudi.j.blom at gmail.com  Sat Jul 20 15:32:16 2019
From: rudi.j.blom at gmail.com (Rudi Blom)
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:32:16 +0700
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
Message-ID: <CAMYpm87MHk39qp0VuXv4qmdL9jNmwC7cAoqoh09E8ZzyhBuujg@mail.gmail.com>

>Does anyone have documentation or history for European efforts in the Unix-like operating systems? For example there was Bull’s Chorus which I seem to recall was based on Mach or a competing microkernel (it was a very long time ago and I used it for no mare than about two hours..).

>I am rather saddened by the fact that there is so much about all the Unix (and not only >Unix) history of computing in the USA and so very little in Europe. I wouldn’t even know >where to start, to be honest, all I have as a history is the Italian side from my father and his other mad friends and colleagues in Milan. So little of it is recorded, never mind written down.

In the 80-tisch I worked at Philips Data Systems in Apeldoorn, the
Netherlands. Not in Development, but in System Support. Philips was
working on a System V.3 based UNIX running on Motorola 68000 CPUs in a
P9X00 server. Called MPX as in Multi-Processor UNIX. The Multi part
refers to having an Ethernet, X25 and SDLC board running a tailored
version of the OS to offload the main CPU.
See for example
https://www.cbronline.com/news/better_late_philips_enters_the_uk_unix_market/
https://www.cbronline.com/news/philips_ready_with_68030_models_for_its_p9000_unix_workstation_family

Later Philips moved to i386 with a 'unknown version' based UNIX.
Division was bought by DEC (some say sold off by Philips) in 1991 and
we moved to DEC's choice of SCO UNIX. The 'intelligent comm boards
were ported and still running the separate OS though.

Unfortunately I never had any of that OS type of source and my paper
archive was left behind. Only have some small higher level test stuff
and my mail archive. For a while I was "rudi blom"
<blom at kiwi.idca.tds.philips.nl>, later rudi blom"@apd.mts

From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Jul 24 11:04:52 2019
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:04:52 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>

>> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
>> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
>> time Solaris 2.x came along.

>Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
>time just didn't want competition for SPARC.

I have vague memories of the Road Runner.  But I also recall, circa
1993, Sun was trying very hard not to sell a '386 port of Solaris that
I wanted to get my hands on.

At the time I was spinning up a brand new university campus.  We
were, as all academia were, $$$ constrained.  Windows was starting
to roll out, but the incoming academics wanted UNIX to run their
code on.  Sun had just leaked out a 386-based release, but was
hiding it from everyone.  At the front-end of the campus build, my
thoughts were to get this Intel version of SunOS running on the
Intel boxes that we knew we had to buy, anyway, because MSDOS and
Windows.

At the '93 Interop I quickly tracked down the Sun booth and started
nailing down all the booth critters to set up a conversation about
doing a campus-wide binary license of the 386 port.  Both booth
shitheads could not be bothered.  They only wanted to SPARC the
booth babes across the aisle.

Does anyone remember the name of that Sun release?  I've forgotten now.
Meanwhile, we signed up for a BSDi academic source license, and deployed
UNIX on every PC that hit the campus.

Sun did eventually show up, many months after the campus opening.  With a
"million dollar" donation.  It was a heap of mostly broken workstations
that they piled on the floor in the agora for a photo-op.  Same gig that
AT&T tried when they dumped the 3B4000 on us in Athabasca in 1990 ;-)

--lyndon


From krewat at kilonet.net  Wed Jul 24 11:30:00 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 21:30:00 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <0db7c299-5208-a0c4-9ff9-a5d4eac2fbe5@kilonet.net>

On 7/23/2019 9:04 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> At the '93 Interop I quickly tracked down the Sun booth and started
> nailing down all the booth critters to set up a conversation about
> doing a campus-wide binary license of the 386 port.  Both booth
> shitheads could not be bothered.  They only wanted to SPARC the
> booth babes across the aisle.
I can't help, aside from saying I'd love to get my hands on a '386 based 
SunOS...

But that statement has to be the most epic description of a conference 
I've ever read.

That, and using SPARC as a verb.

Well done ;)

art k.


From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Thu Jul 25 07:53:45 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 14:53:45 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBVnUFFuRc+guE4WHCxwd7uh6JvN8EK1WSh=U2aAd85iw@mail.gmail.com>

Can you share any details or photos about that 3B?

Academia and cash strapped aren’t terms I’d tie together in my generation
in the US with all the loldebt and gilding.

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 6:12 PM Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca> wrote:

> >> Sun had a '386 based system in early 90s-ish called the Road Runner.
> >> I never saw it. It ran SunOS 4.x and I think was discontinued by the
> >> time Solaris 2.x came along.
>
> >Yep, can confirm.  I was a fan but the powers that were at Sun at the
> >time just didn't want competition for SPARC.
>
> I have vague memories of the Road Runner.  But I also recall, circa
> 1993, Sun was trying very hard not to sell a '386 port of Solaris that
> I wanted to get my hands on.
>
> At the time I was spinning up a brand new university campus.  We
> were, as all academia were, $$$ constrained.  Windows was starting
> to roll out, but the incoming academics wanted UNIX to run their
> code on.  Sun had just leaked out a 386-based release, but was
> hiding it from everyone.  At the front-end of the campus build, my
> thoughts were to get this Intel version of SunOS running on the
> Intel boxes that we knew we had to buy, anyway, because MSDOS and
> Windows.
>
> At the '93 Interop I quickly tracked down the Sun booth and started
> nailing down all the booth critters to set up a conversation about
> doing a campus-wide binary license of the 386 port.  Both booth
> shitheads could not be bothered.  They only wanted to SPARC the
> booth babes across the aisle.
>
> Does anyone remember the name of that Sun release?  I've forgotten now.
> Meanwhile, we signed up for a BSDi academic source license, and deployed
> UNIX on every PC that hit the campus.
>
> Sun did eventually show up, many months after the campus opening.  With a
> "million dollar" donation.  It was a heap of mostly broken workstations
> that they piled on the floor in the agora for a photo-op.  Same gig that
> AT&T tried when they dumped the 3B4000 on us in Athabasca in 1990 ;-)
>
> --lyndon
>
>
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From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Fri Jul 26 05:16:27 2019
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:16:27 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Old 386 Unix Versions, was: Re: PCC for the i386
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtBVnUFFuRc+guE4WHCxwd7uh6JvN8EK1WSh=U2aAd85iw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtBVnUFFuRc+guE4WHCxwd7uh6JvN8EK1WSh=U2aAd85iw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca>

Kevin Bowling writes:

> Can you share any details or photos about that 3B?

Nope.  The only pictures I had of the '4000 were from the night we
"decommissioned" it.  They were lost many moves ago.  But even if I
still had them I would not let them out in public, to protect the
guilty.

Which is a shame, because some of them were quite entertaining :-)

--lyndon

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Fri Jul 26 05:29:32 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 12:29:32 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re:  Old 386 Unix Versions)
In-Reply-To: <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtBVnUFFuRc+guE4WHCxwd7uh6JvN8EK1WSh=U2aAd85iw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtDxyvO1ELP4N4Daqu5Xa_ENFvA+RpC0c9K0yca9uVDdUA@mail.gmail.com>

ISTM the 4000 was one of the earlier UNIX clusters, very close to Locus in
time? Any pointers for more info would be appreciated, I don’t care if it
sucked it’s still interesting


On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:16 PM Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca> wrote:

> Kevin Bowling writes:
>
> > Can you share any details or photos about that 3B?
>
> Nope.  The only pictures I had of the '4000 were from the night we
> "decommissioned" it.  They were lost many moves ago.  But even if I
> still had them I would not let them out in public, to protect the
> guilty.
>
> Which is a shame, because some of them were quite entertaining :-)
>
> --lyndon
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Jul 26 06:47:58 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2019 16:47:58 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions)
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtDxyvO1ELP4N4Daqu5Xa_ENFvA+RpC0c9K0yca9uVDdUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtBVnUFFuRc+guE4WHCxwd7uh6JvN8EK1WSh=U2aAd85iw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtDxyvO1ELP4N4Daqu5Xa_ENFvA+RpC0c9K0yca9uVDdUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MiW1aKHoNUaiabUfngbsB0C=9uNKmkcy_O7Ur0ULSrsQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the 3B4000's
SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the Austin
these days).  Those folk did a nice job.  FWIW:   When the 4000 project was
canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC.

On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 3:30 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com>
wrote:

> ISTM the 4000 was one of the earlier UNIX clusters, very close to Locus in
> time? Any pointers for more info would be appreciated, I don’t care if it
> sucked it’s still interesting
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 25, 2019 at 12:16 PM Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> Kevin Bowling writes:
>>
>> > Can you share any details or photos about that 3B?
>>
>> Nope.  The only pictures I had of the '4000 were from the night we
>> "decommissioned" it.  They were lost many moves ago.  But even if I
>> still had them I would not let them out in public, to protect the
>> guilty.
>>
>> Which is a shame, because some of them were quite entertaining :-)
>>
>> --lyndon
>>
>
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From web at loomcom.com  Sat Jul 27 04:18:06 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:18:06 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MiW1aKHoNUaiabUfngbsB0C=9uNKmkcy_O7Ur0ULSrsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtBVnUFFuRc+guE4WHCxwd7uh6JvN8EK1WSh=U2aAd85iw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtDxyvO1ELP4N4Daqu5Xa_ENFvA+RpC0c9K0yca9uVDdUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2MiW1aKHoNUaiabUfngbsB0C=9uNKmkcy_O7Ur0ULSrsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com>


Clem Cole writes:

> Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the 3B4000's
> SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the Austin
> these days).  Those folk did a nice job.  FWIW:   When the 4000 project was
> canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC.

This is of course extremeley relevant to my interests as well. Since
I've gotten the 3B2/400 emulator pretty much finished up (MAU, NI, CTC,
and PORTS are all working now), I'm turning my attention to trying to
emulate other 3B2 models, starting with the /600 and /1000 WE32200
systems.

The 3B4000 is an entirely different beast, of course, but I've seen
precious little documentation about it. I'd love to hear more from Tom
Bishop's history at Indian Hill, if he's willing to share!

-Seth
--
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA, USA
  web at loomcom.com

From web at loomcom.com  Sat Jul 27 04:18:06 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth J. Morabito)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 11:18:06 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions)
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MiW1aKHoNUaiabUfngbsB0C=9uNKmkcy_O7Ur0ULSrsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtBVnUFFuRc+guE4WHCxwd7uh6JvN8EK1WSh=U2aAd85iw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtDxyvO1ELP4N4Daqu5Xa_ENFvA+RpC0c9K0yca9uVDdUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2MiW1aKHoNUaiabUfngbsB0C=9uNKmkcy_O7Ur0ULSrsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com>


Clem Cole writes:

> Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the 3B4000's
> SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the Austin
> these days).  Those folk did a nice job.  FWIW:   When the 4000 project was
> canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC.

This is of course extremeley relevant to my interests as well. Since
I've gotten the 3B2/400 emulator pretty much finished up (MAU, NI, CTC,
and PORTS are all working now), I'm turning my attention to trying to
emulate other 3B2 models, starting with the /600 and /1000 WE32200
systems.

The 3B4000 is an entirely different beast, of course, but I've seen
precious little documentation about it. I'd love to hear more from Tom
Bishop's history at Indian Hill, if he's willing to share!

-Seth
--
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA, USA
  web at loomcom.com

From richard at inf.ed.ac.uk  Sat Jul 27 04:40:42 2019
From: richard at inf.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 19:40:42 +0100 (BST)
Subject: [TUHS] BSD/386 (was: Old 386 Unix Versions,
 was: Re: PCC for the i386)
In-Reply-To: Richard Salz's message of Wed, 17 Jul 2019 20:16:59 -0400
Message-ID: <20190726184042.7969A2770FED@macaroni.inf.ed.ac.uk>

> BSD[Ii] got in trouble with AT&T for their sales number, which was
> 1-800-ITS-UNIX. I don't know if they ever got officially sued or not.

There was a joke that MIT should have sued them too, for violating their
trademark on ITS.

-- Richard

-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Jul 27 05:24:24 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:24:24 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions)
In-Reply-To: <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtBVnUFFuRc+guE4WHCxwd7uh6JvN8EK1WSh=U2aAd85iw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtDxyvO1ELP4N4Daqu5Xa_ENFvA+RpC0c9K0yca9uVDdUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2MiW1aKHoNUaiabUfngbsB0C=9uNKmkcy_O7Ur0ULSrsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NU1G-nSqN5EsQWpE_jpmkjJcmrLfPUNW0F8-aq9WqABg@mail.gmail.com>

No promises, but I did send him an email.

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 2:24 PM Seth J. Morabito <web at loomcom.com> wrote:

>
> Clem Cole writes:
>
> > Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the
> 3B4000's
> > SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the
> Austin
> > these days).  Those folk did a nice job.  FWIW:   When the 4000 project
> was
> > canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC.
>
> This is of course extremeley relevant to my interests as well. Since
> I've gotten the 3B2/400 emulator pretty much finished up (MAU, NI, CTC,
> and PORTS are all working now), I'm turning my attention to trying to
> emulate other 3B2 models, starting with the /600 and /1000 WE32200
> systems.
>
> The 3B4000 is an entirely different beast, of course, but I've seen
> precious little documentation about it. I'd love to hear more from Tom
> Bishop's history at Indian Hill, if he's willing to share!
>
> -Seth
> --
>   Seth Morabito
>   Poulsbo, WA, USA
>   web at loomcom.com
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Jul 27 05:24:24 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 15:24:24 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] AT&T 3b4000 (was Re: Old 386 Unix Versions)
In-Reply-To: <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com>
References: <8235a090-c48a-4587-8974-23305233bc33@PU1APC01FT026.eop-APC01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <3CFC8159-08DD-4647-8CEF-FE8D196AB3C9@ccc.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.7e6e7ae7-83e1-47fa-9568-f5498506233e@mail.outlook.com>
 <610F6FCB-F24D-4788-953A-83E0E6456622@ccc.com>
 <CAFCBnZvx+u9mEUYKeva2idqqe_9wLJ0ogMNWPqVKfTbJRT=QQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <017d16e0-3a7d-b3e7-29b8-8a454d78463f@e-bbes.com>
 <201907170810.x6H8AELx031974@freefriends.org>
 <20190717151101.GD16562@mcvoy.com> <40c9068b4144a3b4@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtBVnUFFuRc+guE4WHCxwd7uh6JvN8EK1WSh=U2aAd85iw@mail.gmail.com>
 <40c90d6c82c76802@orthanc.ca>
 <CAK7dMtDxyvO1ELP4N4Daqu5Xa_ENFvA+RpC0c9K0yca9uVDdUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2MiW1aKHoNUaiabUfngbsB0C=9uNKmkcy_O7Ur0ULSrsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87muh0zmld.fsf@loomcom.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NU1G-nSqN5EsQWpE_jpmkjJcmrLfPUNW0F8-aq9WqABg@mail.gmail.com>

No promises, but I did send him an email.

On Fri, Jul 26, 2019 at 2:24 PM Seth J. Morabito <web at loomcom.com> wrote:

>
> Clem Cole writes:
>
> > Yes, it was a full Single System Image (SSI) system -- one of the
> 3B4000's
> > SW architects was Tom Bishop, whom I'm still in contact (he's in the
> Austin
> > these days).  Those folk did a nice job.  FWIW:   When the 4000 project
> was
> > canceled in Indiana Hill, Tom joined us @ LCC to work on TNC.
>
> This is of course extremeley relevant to my interests as well. Since
> I've gotten the 3B2/400 emulator pretty much finished up (MAU, NI, CTC,
> and PORTS are all working now), I'm turning my attention to trying to
> emulate other 3B2 models, starting with the /600 and /1000 WE32200
> systems.
>
> The 3B4000 is an entirely different beast, of course, but I've seen
> precious little documentation about it. I'd love to hear more from Tom
> Bishop's history at Indian Hill, if he's willing to share!
>
> -Seth
> --
>   Seth Morabito
>   Poulsbo, WA, USA
>   web at loomcom.com
>
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From sauer at technologists.com  Mon Jul 29 05:27:02 2019
From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 14:27:02 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] just over 32 years ago
Message-ID: <02be1edd-8367-f8a1-6b89-df27dbf080d9@technologists.com>

https://technologists.com/photos/1987/fullsize/1987ThompsonRitchie.jpg

(thanks to Mike Tilson)

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer at technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Mon Jul 29 14:34:04 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2019 21:34:04 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] DMERT
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtAZuArV2oH+cCJr26SVzzcAK3ruW0g1+-n8VH50dFVLsw@mail.gmail.com>

I was talking about DMERT today and Larry McVoy was wondering if it slipped
out in any fashion.

I believe there were official trainers as well as a production emulator
that ran it on Solaris/SPARC.  I have never seen them anywhere.  Old phone
phreaks I’m acquainted with had illicit access. Does anyone know if source
or the trainer or emulator are tangible?

I enjoyed the BTSJ on DMERT as much as the Unix articles.  Highly recommend
reading.

Regards,
Kevin
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From xenonelive at gmail.com  Wed Jul 31 19:59:34 2019
From: xenonelive at gmail.com (Stephan Han.)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 15:29:34 +0530
Subject: [TUHS] Who's behind the UNIX filesystem permission implementation
Message-ID: <CAJV3Z_-JVU2Nn1nhrXOKHWQOni3ZWhRsPiAn_mQ7oH5hMnWumA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Unix enthusiasts.

I'd like to know who or the group of people behind implementing this
filesystem permission system.
Since we are using this system for nearly 40 years and it addresses all the
aspects of the permission matter without any hustle.
I'm inspired to know who/how came up with this theory?
Also if it derived from somewhere else or If there's an origin story about
this, it would be worth to share.

Cheers.
Stephan

-- 
No When
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