From shsrms at erols.com  Sat Aug  1 02:22:23 1998
From: shsrms at erols.com (shsrms)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400
Subject: Thoughts...
References: <9807311220.AA16681@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7@erols.com>

Fellow PUPS Listers,
could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings
here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if
he is an agitation program done by the psychology department?
Thanks
bob

Michael Sokolov wrote:
> 
> Stacy Minkin <stacy at asia.uznet.net> wrote:
> > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are
> > seems to be slowly vaporizing...
> 
> Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best
> military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists
> that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
> 
> Sincerely,
> Michael Sokolov
> Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
> ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

-- 
real address is shsrms at erols dot com
The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker.

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From neil at skatter.usask.ca  Sat Aug  1 02:47:07 1998
From: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
Message-ID: <199807311647.KAA14549@hydrus.USask.Ca>

I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original
PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11 
and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also
provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being 
used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects
should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their 
questions or comments about their system. 

I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are 
using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still
using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel
unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If 
other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them
perhaps a name change would be appropriate.

Neil




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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Sat Aug  1 03:40:22 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 13:40:22 -0400
Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
Message-ID: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

Neil Johnson <neil at skatter.usask.ca> wrote:
> I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are 
> using PDP11 computers.

My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time
soon.

> If
> other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them
> perhaps a name change would be appropriate.

Yes. Keep in mind that starting with 32V and 3BSD all cool and exciting
development of True UNIX we're talking about here has been on VAXen, NOT on
PDP-11s. Also almost all versions of VAX UNIX (I feel that 4.2BSD+ qualifies as
"almost all") are networking, while PDP-11 UNIX (OK, with the exception of
2.11BSD) is not. You can't seriously expect a UNIXed PDP-11 do what people
would normally expect a UNIX box to do. You CAN do this with a VAX (I'm the
living proof). So, that "PDP-11" stuck in there is very insulting, implicitly
suggesting that anyone who actually runs UNIX(R) in full production for
thousands of users, rather than just "preserves" it, is an outcast. The same
for the word "Preservation". Why not call it Proper UNIX Patriot Society?

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Sat Aug  1 08:53:31 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am"
Message-ID: <199807312253.SAA09506@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 11:03:47 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> >> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come
> >> up with a better name :-)
> >
> > PUPS, BUPS, burp!  Sounds fine!
> 
> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists?  I'd
> guess that most people would be on both lists.  How about just a name
> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
> 
> Greg

No, and my original thought was to fold it all under PUPS, but, I sense
that Warren was not wanting to do that.

For heaven's sakes, let us roll with the flow, and do what is best for
all aboard.  If that is one list, fine.... or two lists, fine.
It was just a thought.....

I would just like to see other orphan unices included in the philosophy
behind PUPS, before they go vaporware, forever.

How it gets there is unimportant, and for sure we don't want any politics
or bent feelers involved.

It is more important that we get it done, however it happens to get there.

Bob Keys


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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Sat Aug  1 09:30:35 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Thoughts on vaxen....
In-Reply-To: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 31, 98 01:40:22 pm"
Message-ID: <199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> Neil Johnson <neil at skatter.usask.ca> wrote:

> My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time
> soon.

For the sake of discussion.....

What should one look for in a VAX?

Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that
regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping
up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces
would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of
homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc.

Some of us would not really know one if it fell over on us.... like me.
Yet, IFF I knew enough of what to look out for, mebbie one might appear.
Everyone around here wants plain PC parts and machines in surplus, so
the rest usually gets dumpster chucked or hauled off for scrap by the
pallet load.  I just missed 3 relay racks full of such things as
9 track tape drives, and some sort of pdpish lookalike things.

So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so
that enough of something might be cobbled together to work?

I have lots of experiences on PS/2, RT, and x86 unix boxes, but
am woefully short on pdp-11 and VAXen experiences.  I played with
a pdp-11 many years ago, but I did not know much then.  I am probably
not the only one.....

As ol' number 5 was want to say......``need input.... need input''

Thanks

Bob Keys


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From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk  Sat Aug  1 21:11:13 1998
From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:11:13 +0100
Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <eqRQxBARfvw1Ew98@falstaf.demon.co.uk>

In message <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>In article by Greg Lehey:
>> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists?  I'd
>> guess that most people would be on both lists.  How about just a name
>> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
>> 
>> Greg
>
>I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
>and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
>
>If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
>
Yes please.  Two reasons.  The first is that I have a general interest
as I guess most of us have.  The second is that I am interested in
porting stuff onto 2.11 and if something comes up on the other unixes it
may have an app on a pdp one

>If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
>
>Cheers all,
>
>       Warren

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ    Old computers and radios always welcome

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Sun Aug  2 12:52:00 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 98 22:52:00 -0400
Subject: Thoughts on vaxen....
Message-ID: <9808020252.AA17801@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> What should one look for in a VAX?
>
> Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that
> regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping
> up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces
> would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of
> homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc.
> [...]
> So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so
> that enough of something might be cobbled together to work?
   
   Basically, you need a box that says "VAX" on it. :-) Now, there are all
kinds of different VAXen. If you want one that's capable of running
something other than VMS, you have to be really careful. 32V, 3BSD, and
4.0BSD run on the original VAX-11/780 ONLY. There is a VERY low probability
of you (or me) ever finding one. 4.1BSD and 4.2BSD extend this to 11/750
and 11/730, respectively, but these are still very big and scarce beasts.
If you are a REAL VAX patriot (one for whom VAXen are the ONLY computers),
none of this should matter to you anyway, since versions of UNIX before
4.3BSD are unfit for production use on ARPA Internet (the ones before
4.2BSD lack any networking whatsoever, and 4.2BSD lacks DNS).
   
   If your OS of choice is 4.3BSD, 4.3BSD-Tahoe, or 4.3BSD-Reno, you are in
a much better shape. All of them have kernel support for MicroVAX II, and
Reno (and possibly Tahoe) has support for MicroVAX III. It's still very
rudimentary, though. I personally haven't been able to get it booted yet!
Seeing how much work remains to be done to get Berkeley UNIX running on
MicroVAXen, I have decided to take a crack at it myself. I am actively
working on extending the VAX hardware support in 4.3BSD to MicroVAXen and
everything else not currently supported. My goal is to support everything
from 11/780 to 10000. Total world VAX domination!
   
   This is very long-term, though, and you probably want something sooner.
When I was faced with a pressing need to get one of my VAXen up and running
in May, my solution was (and still is) to run Ultrix. True, not having the
sources is VERY frustrating, and some DECisms like subsets, setld,
BIND/Hesiod, etc. really piss me off, but presently this is the closest you
can get to True VAX UNIX(R) that runs on something you or I can get our
hands on. (A note for those who subscribe both to this list and to
port-vax at netbsd.org. PLEASE don't advertise your freebie toy here.
Fortunately, this list is for LICENSED UNIX(R).)
   
   If you want to assemble your VAX from parts, first realize that some of
them (BabyVAXen in my terminology) consist of a single system board. On the
other end of the spectrum there are huge beasts. Although they do consist
of a myriad of boards, they are so specialized that you are very unlikely
to ever find a board for one laying separately. The only VAXen that one can
realistically build from parts are Q-bus ones. To build one, you need a Q-
bus enclosure with a Q22-bus backplane, a Q-bus VAX CPU (KA6xx), and,
unless your CPU has on-board Ethernet and DSSI, Q-bus disk and tape
controllers and a Q-bus Ethernet interface (DEQNA or DELQA). Of course, you
also need the disk and tape drives themselves.
   
   Good luck!
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sun Aug  2 21:18:34 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
I nominate the name   The Unix Society

Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like
Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals.

While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-),
I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs,
ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the
mailing list!!!

My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from
Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of
days.

Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.

	Warren

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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Mon Aug  3 01:42:14 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100
Subject: Thoughts on vaxen....
In-Reply-To: <199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
	<199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <199808021542.QAA06412@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk>

* User Rdkeys Robert D Keys wrote:

> What should one look for in a VAX?

At least over here, the vax that `everyone' had was an 11/750, which
is one reasonably-sized-but-very-heavy cabinet, with the CPU &c, and
usually tape & disk in one or more other boxes.  These things run 4.2
& 4.3 (and earlier I'm sure), and are a bit more tractable than the
11/780 (but slower).  I'd guess that these things should be still
available in large numbers, but maybe they've all been scrapped by
now.  There are many faster & smaller ones, but I always figured that
the 750 & 780 were the most proper vaxen...

--tim



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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 09:25:53 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:18:34PM +1000
References: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com>

On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> I nominate the name   The Unix Society
>
> Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like
> Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals.
>
> While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-),
> I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs,
> ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the
> mailing list!!!
>
> My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from
> Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of
> days.
>
> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.

I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as
significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've
already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if
they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the
name.  I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
not to use it.

More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.

OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I
tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we
need to look a little further if we want to change the name.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 09:35:17 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am"
Message-ID: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Greg Lehey:
> > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> > I nominate the name   The Unix Society ...
> > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
> 
> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
> not to use it.
> 
> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
> anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.

Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, 
Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.

We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
/The UNIX Heritage Society/i

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 09:54:52 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:35:17AM +1000
References: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday,  3 August 1998 at  9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
>>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
>>> I nominate the name   The Unix Society ...
>>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
>>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
>>
>> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
>> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
>> not to use it.
>>
>> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
>> anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
>> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
>
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
>
> We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i

Sounds a lot better.  Time for some other comments, when the rest of
the world wakes up.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 10:52:42 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 20:52:42 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen
> :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
> different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
> mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
   
   Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
"retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
   
> My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
   
   Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
   
> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> I nominate the name   The Unix Society
   
   and
   
> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
   
   I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
home for them.
   
   Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
   
   Just my two bits.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From djenner at halcyon.com  Mon Aug  3 11:28:56 1998
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700
Subject: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com>

I think he has a point here:

  Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
  (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
  an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
  (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.

If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
system software.

As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to
is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix.  Hence:

Primordial Unix Preservation Society.

(I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)

Dave

Michael Sokolov wrote:
> 
>    Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen
> > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
> > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
> > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
> 
>    Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
> society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
> "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
> 
> > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
> 
>    Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
> 
> > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> > I nominate the name   The Unix Society
> 
>    and
> 
> > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
> 
>    I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
> freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
> equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
> cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
> already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
> be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
> using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
> available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
> patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
> home for them.
> 
>    Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
> thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
> UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
> licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
> preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
> subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
> want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
> mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
> what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
> day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
> such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
> to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
> be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
> should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
> 
>    Just my two bits.
> 
>    Sincerely,
>    Michael Sokolov
>    Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
>    ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 11:43:38 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:28:56PM -0700
References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com>

On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> I think he has a point here:
>
>   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
>   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
>   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
>   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.

That's rather conservative, isn't it?  If we had done that previously,
there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 11:50:42 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The Unix Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am"
Message-ID: <199808030150.LAA13307@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> > I think he has a point here:
> >
> >   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> >   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
> >   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> >   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
> 
> That's rather conservative, isn't it?  If we had done that previously,
> there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.

Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 11:54:06 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The Unix Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am"
Message-ID: <199808030154.LAA13334@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Warren Toomey:
> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too.
I forgot to add this sentence.
 
 	Warren
 


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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Mon Aug  3 12:23:17 1998
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930
References: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <19980803102317.65086@krdl.org.sg>

On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Monday,  3 August 1998 at  9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > In article by Greg Lehey:
> >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> >>> I nominate the name   The Unix Society ...
> >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
> >>
> >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
> >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
> >> not to use it.
> >>
> >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
> >> anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
> >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
> >
> > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
> >
> > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
> 
> Sounds a lot better.  Time for some other comments, when the rest of
> the world wakes up.

Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of
writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could
take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the
feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having
a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with
email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to.

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs	(pron: curdle)	Fax:   +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road			Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II		Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From djenner at halcyon.com  Mon Aug  3 12:41:58 1998
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:41:58 -0700
Subject: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com>

I don't think I'm saying what you think I said?  I not trying to
restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.

But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
I'm not clear about what I said!?

Dave

Greg Lehey wrote:
> 
> On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> > I think he has a point here:
> >
> >   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> >   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
> >   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> >   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
> 
> That's rather conservative, isn't it?  If we had done that previously,
> there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
> 
> Greg

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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 12:44:55 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:55 +0930
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:41:58PM -0700
References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com>

On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> I don't think I'm saying what you think I said?  I not trying to
> restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.
>
> But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
> I'm not clear about what I said!?
>
> Greg Lehey wrote:
>>
>> On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
>>> I think he has a point here:
>>>
>>>   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
>>>   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
>>>   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
>>>   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.

OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 12:51:22 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:14:55 pm"
Message-ID: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Greg Lehey:
> OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
> systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
> 
> Greg

After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
the crippled System V for the PDP-11.

You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 13:06:29 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000
References: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com> <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980803123629.E25574@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday,  3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>> OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
>> systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>
> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.

Yet.  What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years
ago?

> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license,
> and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V
> systems. That's another battle, tho.

Sure.  I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that
we should go tilting at windmills.

Greg
--
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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:12:49 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:12:49 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030312.AA18488@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing.
   
   It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about
the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free"
clones.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:14:16 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:16 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these
> systems.
   
   Yes!
   
   However, later you write:
> My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
   
   Nee, see below.
   
   David C. Jenner <djenner at halcyon.com> writes:
> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
> system software.
   
   No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
"preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
system.
   
> Primordial Unix Preservation Society.
   
   Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society?
   
> (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)
   
   I agree. Hence my suggestion above.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:14:39 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:39 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V.
   
   Yes, you are right.
   
> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
   
   Yes!
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:15:15 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:15:15 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030315.AA18511@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
> [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
   
   Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_
cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32-
bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as
West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32-
bit CPUs.
   
   As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!
   
   Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
on more than just PDP-11s.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 13:15:35 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm"
Message-ID: <199808030315.NAA15369@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Greg Lehey:
> > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> > the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
> 
> Yet.  What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years
> ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that
> we should go tilting at windmills.
> Greg

I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now
that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but
I'm sure it will change over time.

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 13:16:57 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm"
Message-ID: <199808030316.NAA15399@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Michael Sokolov:
>    Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> > thing.
>    
>    It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about
> the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free"
> clones.

If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover,
then I'd say this was pretty reasonable.

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 13:26:16 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:14:16PM -0400
References: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <19980803125616.F25574@freebie.lemis.com>

On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>    Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
>> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
>> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
>> system software.
>
>    No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
> on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
> "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
> suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
> to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
> system.

I would have a problem being a "Patriot".

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:31:14 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:31:14 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
> OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
> systems.
   
   You still don't get it. WRONG!
   
   Quoting from the license text:
> 3.  LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS
>
> The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this
> Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems,
> including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit
> PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating
> systems:
>
> 16-Bit  UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
> 32-bit  32V
  ^^^^^^^^^^^
   
   Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:42:53 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:42:53 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030342.AA18616@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover,
> then I'd say this was pretty reasonable.
   
   It is, isn't it?
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 13:45:52 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST)
Subject: What to do now with PUPS
In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm"
Message-ID: <199808030345.NAA15453@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Michael Sokolov:
>    As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
> the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
> SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
> trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
> license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
> the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
> code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
> PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!
>    
>    Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
> on more than just PDP-11s.
>    
>    Michael Sokolov

I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11
UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from
Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal
goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons.
Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a
mailing list, web page etc.

Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We
started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals
of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided
by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html,
which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes.

Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result
of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the
mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was
unintentional. 

The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal
goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that:

	+ There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license
	+ For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok
	+ 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed
	+ System III was also dubious
	+ System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed

The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky,
even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO,
for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only
licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly).

Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path
for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought
so hard for it to be included in the license.


Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes
work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit
systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope
for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would
have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's
legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference.


However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases
on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been
saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to
extend what has been achieved. Go for it!

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 14:04:19 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm"
Message-ID: <199808030404.OAA15507@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Greg Lehey:
	Michael writes:
> >    No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
> > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
> > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
> > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
> > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
> > system.
> 
> I would have a problem being a "Patriot".
> 
> Greg

Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate,
as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact,
we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think.

My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's
freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan
or fanatic.

I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising,
we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a
name into the PUPS acronym.

I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society.

For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list,
don't forget that you can switch to the digest version.

	echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au

    Warren

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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Mon Aug  3 14:00:42 1998
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400
References: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955@krdl.org.sg>

Mikhail,

On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>    
>    Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well.

Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already.
I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that
the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own
email again).

The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart
machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler.
Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in
that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not
stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle
of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the
UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not
being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there
at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book
around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might
find it interesting to read, too.

With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX
and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with
renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history
of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page
that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only.

Regards,
	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs	(pron: curdle)	Fax:   +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road			Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II		Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From bdc at world.std.com  Mon Aug  3 15:00:18 1998
From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 (PST)
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980802215441.8525C-100000@world.std.com>

On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote:

> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, 
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
> 
> We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i

I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that
they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what
the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers.  It may have been on
one of their personal web pages that I read it. 

-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Mon Aug  3 23:11:02 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:11:02 -0400
Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society
Message-ID: <199808031311.AA10670@world.std.com>

< Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate
                             ^^^
                             has

Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present 
tense for the future.

Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may 
have been lost.  One assumes the license grantors actually have complete 
sources.  In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but 
little of the code.

< as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact
< we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think.

True.

The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially 
viable or no support) and those that have commercial value.  

Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS 
that is not free or shareware.

Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call 
archeology.  One must resore and understand the structure before building
upon it.

The patriot stuff, pure poof.

Allison


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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug  3 23:42:53 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm"
Message-ID: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> > OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
> > systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
> > 
> > Greg
> 
> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.

Do any of us really want SysV?  One can get that in a free license for unixware
or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.

> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.

Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest.  For the sake of
discussion, maybe that is good.

What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under
the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to
include orphan unices.  Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is
a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past
history.  That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income.
What might be considered an orphan unix?  One might consider things like
the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would
consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe).
One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore.
Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same
and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV.  Xenix falls into the same
quacks like a duck category.  Although Xenix is still used commercially,
it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach
SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort.  I would not expect
them to offer source, although that might be workable after time.  One might
consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware.
I am sure there are others.  Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be
suitably binary hobby licensed.  I would have a hard time imagining that
SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days.
Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a
binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect.
What about something like 386BSD?  That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am
reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing.
These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of,
for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards.

Is this reasonable?

Just thinking out loud.....

If nothing else, the discussion is good.....

Bob Keys


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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Tue Aug  4 00:11:52 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <199808031311.AA10670@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am"
Message-ID: <199808031411.KAA17764@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may 
> have been lost.  One assumes the license grantors actually have complete 
> sources.  In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but 
> little of the code.

This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider.

I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred
to here.  In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little
was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types).  It would
NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help.

The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers
(only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the
passage of time.  Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early
boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries,  and OS notes
that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore.  So much of it is NOT kept around
by the companies.  And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed
through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or
gone.

Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so
that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all
about.  I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like
the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the
unix flavors alive.
 
> The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially 
> viable or no support) and those that have commercial value.  

I would expect that our collective interests center on the former,
even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally.

Bob Keys


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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Tue Aug  4 12:14:43 1998
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400
References: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <19980804101443.54947@krdl.org.sg>

On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> > the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
> 
> Do any of us really want SysV?  One can get that in a free license for unixware
> or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.

Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you
are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and
the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy.
They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as
you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes).

Anybody more detailed information on this ?

	Joerg
----
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs	(pron: curdle)	Fax:   +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road			Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II		Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Tue Aug  4 14:15:23 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am"
Message-ID: <199808040415.OAA17823@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys:
> Do any of us really want SysV?

Not me :-)

> Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a
> binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect.
> What about something like 386BSD?  That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am

I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries.

> reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing.
> These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of,
> for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards.

I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc.
Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris.
 
Ciao,
	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Aug  4 15:09:47 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400
References: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <19980804143947.M25942@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday,  3 August 1998 at  9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>> OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
>>> systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>
>> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
>> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
>> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Do any of us really want SysV?  One can get that in a free license for unixware
> or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.

You don't get the source with UnixWare.  And yes, I can conceive that
the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only
for the computer etymologist.  I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP
machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of
System V.2 and V.3.0.  While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the
last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't
discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany.  AFAIK
the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly
after.

>> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
>> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
>
> Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest.  For the sake of
> discussion, maybe that is good.
>
> What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under
> the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to
> include orphan unices.  Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is
> a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past
> history.  That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's
> income.

In principle, not a bad idea.

> What might be considered an orphan unix?  One might consider things
> like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use
> (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others
> non-commercial maybe).

Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree.  I
wouldn't consider it orphan.

> One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore.
> Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same
> and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV.  Xenix falls into the same
> quacks like a duck category.  Although Xenix is still used commercially,
> it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach
> SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort.

I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the
moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1.  Although
it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning
more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was.

> I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be
> workable after time.  One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices
> (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware.  I am sure there are others.
> Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby
> licensed.  I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would
> consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days.
> Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only
> a binary license of some sort would be all that we could
> collectively expect.

What would you do with a binary license.

> What about something like 386BSD?  That began in the 4.3BSD era if I
> am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the
> real thing.  These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to
> keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively
> seem be be heading towards.

FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form.  Dr. Dobbs still has a
CD-ROM that you can buy.  But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD
and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further
developing.  Anything but orphans.  I'm writing this on a FreeBSD
machine.

> If nothing else, the discussion is good.....

Definitely.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca  Tue Aug  4 22:55:30 1998
From: norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca (norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:55:30 -0400
Subject: PUPS, BUPS, BURPS, and other stomach upsets
Message-ID: <IAA06380@lion.cs.yorku.ca>

The recent fuss seems to me to be much overdone, mainly because of
a small number of people with strong views and a restless urge to
type.  Here's my view, which I hold with some strength, but with
little religious zeal.

The top of Warren's web page about PUPS says the society is
`devoted to the preservation of all information related to the
versions of Unix that ran on Digital PDPs.'  It seems pretty
clear to me that his original intent was to collect and keep
historic data, not to Promote The One True Unix nor to Support
Software That We Approve Of nor to Make Money Fast.  (No slur
intended on those who do want to do those things.)  Certainly
that is the basis on which I joined the mailing list, and on
which I've contributed the small amount of time I've put in.

It makes sense to me that efforts to preserve post-PDP11 Unix
systems be coordinated with PUPS, whether that means folding
them into the same society or just having several groups that
share.  I would suggest that a single society (even if run as
several distributed pieces) would probably be less work in the
long run, and think that `UNIX Heritage Society' is a fine name.
(Just plain `UNIX Society' is too broad; it sounds like a
duplication of USENIX.)  Those who think `heritage' and
`preservation' are dirty words are, I think, missing the point;
see the paragraph above.

All of this is likely to involve more work for someone.  I don't
know just who has done what to make PUPS work, but it looks to
me like the bulk of the work has fallen on Warren; certainly he
did the single hardest part, that of getting things started.
Those of us who think the society should do more things should
be prepared to put our money, labour, and whatnot where our mouths
are.

In that spirit: I'm not likely to have much time to help out for
the next few months, as I'm starting a new job, and just keeping
my project to recover the old manuals into machine-readable form
will soak up most of my spare cycles.  (Apologies to all that the
samples and whatnot I'd hoped to put up on the web still aren't
up, by the way; winding down my present work commitments and
trying to arrange a graceful startup of my new ones has taken a
lot more effort than expected.)  It may be possible in my new
world to help out with some computing resources, e.g. a Canadian
mirror of the PUPS archives; I'll try to plan for that in the
already-being-planned upheaval of my new world's computing environment.
If the master PUPS site is short of resources, e.g. could use
another disk or two, I'd be happy to help out with some cash.

I encourage others who can help out to speak up.  Judging by the
amount of mail that has passed through the mailing list recently
(almost 5% of an RK05 by my count), there should be some spare
energy out there somewhere.

It may also be worth while to approach USENIX for support;
preserving UNIX heritage is certainly not foreign to them, and
their current president has some history of preservation work.

Norman Wilson

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From neil at skatter.usask.ca  Wed Aug  5 05:24:11 1998
From: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <199808041924.NAA16324@hydrus.USask.Ca>

I don't like the idea of focusing the group on versions of unix with 
source licences available for a number of reasons. Expensive source 
licences are available for new versions of unix. If the limitation is 
to an inexpensive hobbiest licence then a somewhat arbitrary price has 
to be set for inexpensive.  A second, and more important objection is 
that we are explicitly excluding users who want to use the free PDP-11 
unix binary licences. Finally, users of other vintage unixes with legal, 
binary only licences would be excluded.

Neil


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Aug  5 05:48:07 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:48:07 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <199808041948.AA06220@world.std.com>


How about a direct approach. 

Create UBOS, UBOS spells out to Unix Based Operating Systems.  PUPs would 
then be a sibling as would other potential *nix based OS forums.  the key 
is if you not sure, it goes to UBOS and from there vectored to the best 
fit forum.  Possible sibling forums could be NIX-32 for the 32bit and 
NIX-16 for the other yet not defined 16bit *nix.  there are also 8bit 
flavors and of course 64bit ones as well. No doubt I'm missing a few.

Allison


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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Wed Aug  5 06:09:41 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
References: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <199808042009.VAA11887@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>

* Michael Sokolov wrote:
   
>> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
   
>    Yes!
   
No no no!  This is really bad.  We should not try and sit down and say
who or what we exclude and who or what we include.  There are hundreds
of Unix and Unix-related systems that ran or run on all sorts of
hardware: trying to define some arbitrary border is just bogus, and is
also pretty disturbing in various respects (`you over there, you're
running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley
code in it on something that isn't even a vax, *you* can't talk to
*us* cos you're not pure enough, nah nah nah').

Let's just not stress about this stuff, and let anyone who is
interested in older Unixoid systems be involved.  The only logical
dividing line is the 16-bit/32-bit one -- really the PDP11/bigger
system one -- and even that is furry (where does 32v live, or the
interdata port, or ?).

It's not like the list is suddenly going to get taken over by people
trying to talk about Linux or Solaris or something: those poeple have
their own lists and are quite happy there.  If people ask
inappropriate questions they won't get answers (or will get polite
pointers to ask somewhere more apropriate).

As for name, I still like my own suggestion of `proper unix
preservation society', though I can see there may be copyright issues.

Most of all, can't we stop all this silly meta-discussion and actually
talk about real interesting stuff!  Here's a question I'd actually
like to know the answer to: have there been ports of Unix or Unix-like
systems to machines with non-power-of-2 word sizes or other `strange'
(by modern standards) machines?

--tim (who's running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley
       code in it on something that isn't even a Vax.
       And is also on holiday, so won't be reading this stuff for a while)


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Aug  5 09:11:53 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST)
Subject: A Decision :-)
Message-ID: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working
name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for
now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to
chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well,
maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source
licences, too.

Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest.
Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX
Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page.

If the mailing list becomes too diverse, then people are free to set up
other mailing lists with more restricted topics. Again, I'll add hyperlinks
on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page to the mailing lists.

Suggestions for a better name then `The UNIX Heritage Society' can be mailed
to me :-) Suggestions for the charter of `The UNIX Heritage Society', or
whatever you want to call it, can also be sent to me. I'll add hyperlinks
on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page for each suggestion.

I'd rather this thing be all-inclusive, rather then exclusive. At the same
time, I want people to feel free to set up web/mail resources with more
specific aims. For example, the PUPS web pages are going to stay unchanged.

Now, as Tim suggested, let's stop going round in circles and actually
get back to DOING things :-)

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Aug  5 09:21:28 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Kirk's 4CD BSD set: status
Message-ID: <199808042321.JAA18748@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	Kirk McKusick has updated his web page about his 4CD set of BSD
releases at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/

Status: production is delayed a further week. Unfortuntely, Kirk is
just about to go off overseas for three weeks, and won't be back
until the end of August. You may place your orders on his web page,
but things won't start to happen until the 1st of September.

Cheers all,

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Aug  5 09:56:04 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST)
Subject: TUHS web page: version #0
Message-ID: <199808042356.JAA18931@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group
thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at:

	http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/

Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, hyperlinks,
background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to knock up a VAX UNIX
web page so I could add a hyperlink to it?

Thanks,
	Warren


From grog at lemis.com  Wed Aug  5 11:57:53 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:27:53 +0930
Subject: A Decision :-)
In-Reply-To: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:11:53AM +1000
References: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980805112753.U25942@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wednesday,  5 August 1998 at  9:11:53 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working
> name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for
> now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to
> chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well,
> maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source
> licences, too.
> 
> Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest.
> Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
> Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX
> Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page.

OK.  Check out http://www.lemis.com/~grog/history.html.

Greg
-- 
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From pb0aia at iaehv.nl  Thu Aug  6 01:11:21 1998
From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: TUHS web page: version #0
Message-ID: <199808051511.RAA26558@IAEhv.nl>

pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au said on  Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:13:48 +0200 (CEST)
 wk>The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group
 wk>thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at:
 wk>http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/
 wk>Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions,
 wk>hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to
 wk>knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it?

Maybe I can help (a little). At this moment I am building a site dedicated
to the VAX and its operating systems, mostly concentrating on hardware
info and NetBSD for now, but I also have a links page to a lot of information 
on BSD and generic Unix, and there is a PDP11 links page. I am on this
mailing list because I have several MicroPDP's here, and I want to run
2.11 on them, but at the time I am tinkering with the VAXen more often. 
(Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to request the licence from SCO,
but that won't take too long anymore.)

The site I am building is at http://vaxarchive.ml.org

I would like to mirror the Unix heritage information on this site,
there is room for some more files. Please take a look at my site and
let me know what information you think should be there too that I missed,
so I can make the site more complete.

Kees

-- 

Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
http://www.iae.nl/users/kees/vax/ - My VAX and old iron collection

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered


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From pechter at shell.monmouth.com  Thu Aug  6 07:15:52 1998
From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
Message-ID: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com>

One thing about preserving the Unix varients.  There's a number of 
interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be interesting
to study.  This may be because of my history major background -- or that
I spent too many years in Field Service for far too many vendors
of these boxes.

One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual 
universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes.
Concurrent (originally  Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice
non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII.

Another Unix (which I'd kill for sources for) is Pyramid's OS/x which
was a SysV/BSD4.2 dual universe box (with both sets of init/getty
and 3 UUCP's).  It was kind of the Universal Unix system.  
Pick your init, universe, UUCP... they're all in there.

AT&T sold these as System 7000's, Siemens-Nixdorf also sold them.
I worked for Pyramid and found it my favorite Unix to this day -- since 
I could mix and match features on the fly.

Both of these versions are pretty dead today.  I don't know if Siemens-Pyramid
even supports OS/x any more (probably not -- since they're going Reliant
SysVR4 and Solaris on the new stuff).  The main drawback to getting
these systems are they were was all implemented  on SysIII or
SysV releases -- so the licenses are constrained by the original "You need
a SysV source license to get our source code plus our license fee."

Bill

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From pb0aia at iaehv.nl  Thu Aug  6 09:46:20 1998
From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
Message-ID: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl>

pechter at shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
 pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients.  There's a number of
 pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be
 pe>interesting to study.  This may be because of my history major
 pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for
 pe>far too many vendors of these boxes.
 pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
 pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time
 pe>processes. Concurrent (originally  Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also
 pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as
 pe>Edition VII.

 8< snip >8

Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps?
I have a 5700 here in the basement and a stack of floppies that
should be the install set for RTU 5.0, but the hard disk, a
Fujitsu Eagle, is dead. There is no information on the machine to
be found on the net at all and the newsgroup has been dead for years.
I'd put up a page on the machine myself if I knew something worth
telling about it. I don't have any hardware manuals, only a very 
incomplete set on the OS. 
Can I mount any SMD drive in the machine and tell the install about 
the geometry or do I also have to tell the controller? How do I
copy the disks? Can Teledisk duplicate them? (I once saw that it said it
copied the disk successfully, but the target machine couldn't read it.)

Kees

-- 

Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered


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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Aug  6 15:23:54 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
In-Reply-To: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl>; from Kees Stravers on Thu, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:46:20AM +0200
References: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl>
Message-ID: <19980806145354.H9468@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thursday,  6 August 1998 at  1:46:20 +0200, Kees Stravers wrote:
> pechter at shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
>  pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients.  There's a number of
>  pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be
>  pe>interesting to study.  This may be because of my history major
>  pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for
>  pe>far too many vendors of these boxes.
>  pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
>  pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time
>  pe>processes. Concurrent (originally  Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also
>  pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as
>  pe>Edition VII.
>
>  8< snip >8
>
> Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps?

I've never even *seen* a Masscomp, but "Writing a UNIX Device Driver",
by Janet Egan and Thomas Teixeira, based on a Masscomp document.  It's
possible that if you can find one of them, they could give you a lead.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Aug 12 09:36:42 1998
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:42 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <199807311344.AA23930@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Allison J Parent wrote:

> < Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the
> < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali
> < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
> 
> They never stopped making them.  Mentec has some really fast 11s.

(Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not
into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...)

Anyway, to make the list more complete, Quickware makes even faster
pdp-11s last time I looked, and a third player is Strobe Data. So there
are still lots of go in the pdp-11 community, I'll bet it will outlive the
VAXen.

> Mike, take a prozac and chill.  It's all that capitalism that is making 
> all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place.  This 
> place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting.
> We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the 
> code and preserved it from loss.

Amen.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu  Wed Aug 12 09:39:57 1998
From: gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:39:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: I'm still alive...
Message-ID: <199808112339.TAA10748@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>

   Dear TUHS members,
   
   Sorry for my sudden disappearance. There was nothing I could do about
it. I am off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 and some time last week my machine
(blackwidow) stopped responding to ping. I have also been away from
computers in general until yesterday. If everything works out OK, I should
be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming
Monday, 17-AUG-1998.
   
   For now I'm using my ancient Cleveland Free-Net account for mail. The
address is in my signature. It's screwed up in a number of ways, starting
with the funny way my name is written, but that's all I have for now. I
originally wanted to follow the PUPS/TUHS list via the WWW archive, but it
appears to be updated in a digest-like fashion (the normal practice for
Majordomo), so that probably won't work out well. Warren, would you please
add my temporary address to the list?
   
   From what I can see in the WWW archive (right now goes up to 5-AUG-1998
morning), the decision as to the future of the society has already been
made. Oh well. Warren, as far as a WWW page or something describing my VAX
UNIX work goes, a little later, OK?
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579
   *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696 at cleveland.freenet.edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Aug 12 09:43:56 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Aug 12, 98 01:36:42 am"
Message-ID: <199808112343.JAA00744@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Johnny Billquist:
> (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not
> into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...)

Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever
machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Therefore
I can't contact him to fix it.
 
Looks like the Unix Heritage Society page at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS
is getting some attention. Does anybody have any more hotlinks to add? I know
that there's a 3B2 group somewhere, if I had a URL I'd add it. Ditto for any
other Unix-related heritage pages.

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu  Thu Aug 13 15:57:30 1998
From: gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:57:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Thoughts...
Message-ID: <199808130557.BAA14749@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever
> machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages.
   
   Actually there is no MX record. blackwidow.CWRU.Edu is an alias (CNAME
record) for blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, which has IP address 129.22.50.4.
This IP address belongs to my VAX running Ultrix. Some time last week it
stopped responding to ping, and because I'm off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 I
can't do anything about it right now. If everything works out OK, I should
be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming
Monday, 17-AUG-1998.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579
   *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696 at cleveland.freenet.edu

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From rickgc at calweb.com  Fri Aug 14 09:03:04 1998
From: rickgc at calweb.com (Rick Copeland)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:03:04 -0700
Subject: PDP-1103
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980813160254.0091bbe0@pop.calweb.com>

Dear List,

I am trying to work with a PDP 1103 that has been removed from a Vax
11/785.  The goal is to be able to write RX01's with the required boot
blocks required by NetBSD Vax to boot the 11/785. I figured that since I
had several of these 1103's that I could set one up specifically to write
RX01's by running some kind of operating system on one that would talk to
one of my other machines(Sun 3/80 running NetBSD, Sparc 2 running Solarus
2.51, Vax 3600 running NetBSD, i86's running FreeBSD, NetBSD, Windows 95)
via rs232 or what ever.

Anyone got any ideas how I might do this?

Thanks,

Rick Copeland
Information Systems Manager
InterMag, Inc.
(916) 568-6744 x36

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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Wed Aug 19 00:31:38 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:31:38 +0100
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
In-Reply-To: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com>
References: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <199808181431.PAA19142@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>

* Carolyn Pechter wrote:

> One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual 
> universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes.
> Concurrent (originally  Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice
> non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII.

I may well have acces to tapes for RTUs of 1988-89 vintage, as there
were several masscomps here (in fact there still is at least one in
the basement, not working).  No source though of course, and without
source they are probably less interesting.  I remember RTU as being
deeply unpleasant, but that may have been more due to the HW which was
extremely flaky, at least on the bigger of our machines.

--tim






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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Aug 19 13:06:45 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:06:45 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Yet More SCO Licenses
Message-ID: <199808190306.NAA12804@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

A whole bunch of SCO licenses have arrived on my desk, bringing the total
of Ancient UNIX licenses to 67.

Joseph Bickel, Atindra Chaturvedi, Peter Chubb, J. D. Knaebel, Eric Delgado,
Hendrik Dykstra, Glenn Geers, Michael Homsey, Michael J. Haertel, Andrew Lynch,
Keizo Maeda, Giegrich Michael, Lyndon Nerenberg, and Jim Williams

are all now licensed.

Cheers all,

	Warren

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From shsrms at erols.com  Sat Aug  1 02:22:23 1998
From: shsrms at erols.com (shsrms)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:22:23 -0400
Subject: Thoughts...
References: <9807311220.AA16681@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <35C1EF3D.6E05D8C7@erols.com>

Fellow PUPS Listers,
could someone with the proper education please look at Soko's postings
here and in Netbsd vax list and tell me if soko is a real person or if
he is an agitation program done by the psychology department?
Thanks
bob

Michael Sokolov wrote:
> 
> Stacy Minkin <stacy at asia.uznet.net> wrote:
> > Absolutely right! The only problem with it that old CPUs are
> > seems to be slowly vaporizing...
> 
> Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the best
> military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitalists
> that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
> 
> Sincerely,
> Michael Sokolov
> Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
> ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

-- 
real address is shsrms at erols dot com
The Herbal Gypsy and the Tinker.

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From neil at skatter.usask.ca  Sat Aug  1 02:47:07 1998
From: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:47:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
Message-ID: <199807311647.KAA14549@hydrus.USask.Ca>

I agree with the idea of one list, but prefer the original
PDP11 Unix Preservation Society. My interest is mainly PDP11 
and Unix, which the name suggests. Linked together the names also
provide an indication of the historical nature of the systems being 
used. I think anyone with an interest in only one of the two aspects
should be welcome in the group, and I am interested in their 
questions or comments about their system. 

I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are 
using PDP11 computers. If I didn't have an 11, but was still
using a Model 16 from Radio Shack I personally would not feel
unwelcome in this group with the original name retained. If 
other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them
perhaps a name change would be appropriate.

Neil




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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Sat Aug  1 03:40:22 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 98 13:40:22 -0400
Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
Message-ID: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

Neil Johnson <neil at skatter.usask.ca> wrote:
> I also suspect that most participants in the mailing list are 
> using PDP11 computers.

My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time
soon.

> If
> other people do feel the PDP11 part of the name excludes them
> perhaps a name change would be appropriate.

Yes. Keep in mind that starting with 32V and 3BSD all cool and exciting
development of True UNIX we're talking about here has been on VAXen, NOT on
PDP-11s. Also almost all versions of VAX UNIX (I feel that 4.2BSD+ qualifies as
"almost all") are networking, while PDP-11 UNIX (OK, with the exception of
2.11BSD) is not. You can't seriously expect a UNIXed PDP-11 do what people
would normally expect a UNIX box to do. You CAN do this with a VAX (I'm the
living proof). So, that "PDP-11" stuck in there is very insulting, implicitly
suggesting that anyone who actually runs UNIX(R) in full production for
thousands of users, rather than just "preserves" it, is an outcast. The same
for the word "Preservation". Why not call it Proper UNIX Patriot Society?

Sincerely,
Michael Sokolov
Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Sat Aug  1 08:53:31 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 18:53:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <19980731094513.U7830@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 31, 98 09:45:13 am"
Message-ID: <199807312253.SAA09506@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> On Wednesday, 29 July 1998 at 11:03:47 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> >> BUPS stands for BIG UNIX Preservation Society. I'm sure they will come
> >> up with a better name :-)
> >
> > PUPS, BUPS, burp!  Sounds fine!
> 
> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists?  I'd
> guess that most people would be on both lists.  How about just a name
> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
> 
> Greg

No, and my original thought was to fold it all under PUPS, but, I sense
that Warren was not wanting to do that.

For heaven's sakes, let us roll with the flow, and do what is best for
all aboard.  If that is one list, fine.... or two lists, fine.
It was just a thought.....

I would just like to see other orphan unices included in the philosophy
behind PUPS, before they go vaporware, forever.

How it gets there is unimportant, and for sure we don't want any politics
or bent feelers involved.

It is more important that we get it done, however it happens to get there.

Bob Keys


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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Sat Aug  1 09:30:35 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 19:30:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Thoughts on vaxen....
In-Reply-To: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Jul 31, 98 01:40:22 pm"
Message-ID: <199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> Neil Johnson <neil at skatter.usask.ca> wrote:

> My office is full of VAXen, but I don't envision a PDP-11 coming in any time
> soon.

For the sake of discussion.....

What should one look for in a VAX?

Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that
regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping
up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces
would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of
homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc.

Some of us would not really know one if it fell over on us.... like me.
Yet, IFF I knew enough of what to look out for, mebbie one might appear.
Everyone around here wants plain PC parts and machines in surplus, so
the rest usually gets dumpster chucked or hauled off for scrap by the
pallet load.  I just missed 3 relay racks full of such things as
9 track tape drives, and some sort of pdpish lookalike things.

So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so
that enough of something might be cobbled together to work?

I have lots of experiences on PS/2, RT, and x86 unix boxes, but
am woefully short on pdp-11 and VAXen experiences.  I played with
a pdp-11 many years ago, but I did not know much then.  I am probably
not the only one.....

As ol' number 5 was want to say......``need input.... need input''

Thanks

Bob Keys


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From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk  Sat Aug  1 21:11:13 1998
From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:11:13 +0100
Subject: OUPS (was: PUPS and BUPS (burp!) thoughts.....)
In-Reply-To: <199807310120.LAA08798@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <eqRQxBARfvw1Ew98@falstaf.demon.co.uk>

In message <199807310120.LAA08798 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>In article by Greg Lehey:
>> Are we really so many disparate people that we need two lists?  I'd
>> guess that most people would be on both lists.  How about just a name
>> change, to "Old UNIX Preservation Society"?
>> 
>> Greg
>
>I don't know, I thought that it would give people more flexibility,
>and shield people from stuff they didn't want to see. So lets ask:
>
>If you're on the PUPS list, do you want to see stuff about non PDP-11 Unixes?
>
Yes please.  Two reasons.  The first is that I have a general interest
as I guess most of us have.  The second is that I am interested in
porting stuff onto 2.11 and if something comes up on the other unixes it
may have an app on a pdp one

>If you're on the BUPS list, do you want to see stuff about PDP-11 Unixes.
>
>Cheers all,
>
>       Warren

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ    Old computers and radios always welcome

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Sun Aug  2 12:52:00 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 98 22:52:00 -0400
Subject: Thoughts on vaxen....
Message-ID: <9808020252.AA17801@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" <rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> wrote:
> What should one look for in a VAX?
>
> Say I was walking along through our state surplus agency (and I do that
> regularly these days, since all kinds of neato unicy goodies are popping
> up from a lot of folks going to NT toys), what kind of parts and pieces
> would I need to put together a minimal VAX, suited to some flavor of
> homegrown 32V/3BSD/4BSD, etc.
> [...]
> So, what parts by name and number should I keep an eye out for, so
> that enough of something might be cobbled together to work?
   
   Basically, you need a box that says "VAX" on it. :-) Now, there are all
kinds of different VAXen. If you want one that's capable of running
something other than VMS, you have to be really careful. 32V, 3BSD, and
4.0BSD run on the original VAX-11/780 ONLY. There is a VERY low probability
of you (or me) ever finding one. 4.1BSD and 4.2BSD extend this to 11/750
and 11/730, respectively, but these are still very big and scarce beasts.
If you are a REAL VAX patriot (one for whom VAXen are the ONLY computers),
none of this should matter to you anyway, since versions of UNIX before
4.3BSD are unfit for production use on ARPA Internet (the ones before
4.2BSD lack any networking whatsoever, and 4.2BSD lacks DNS).
   
   If your OS of choice is 4.3BSD, 4.3BSD-Tahoe, or 4.3BSD-Reno, you are in
a much better shape. All of them have kernel support for MicroVAX II, and
Reno (and possibly Tahoe) has support for MicroVAX III. It's still very
rudimentary, though. I personally haven't been able to get it booted yet!
Seeing how much work remains to be done to get Berkeley UNIX running on
MicroVAXen, I have decided to take a crack at it myself. I am actively
working on extending the VAX hardware support in 4.3BSD to MicroVAXen and
everything else not currently supported. My goal is to support everything
from 11/780 to 10000. Total world VAX domination!
   
   This is very long-term, though, and you probably want something sooner.
When I was faced with a pressing need to get one of my VAXen up and running
in May, my solution was (and still is) to run Ultrix. True, not having the
sources is VERY frustrating, and some DECisms like subsets, setld,
BIND/Hesiod, etc. really piss me off, but presently this is the closest you
can get to True VAX UNIX(R) that runs on something you or I can get our
hands on. (A note for those who subscribe both to this list and to
port-vax at netbsd.org. PLEASE don't advertise your freebie toy here.
Fortunately, this list is for LICENSED UNIX(R).)
   
   If you want to assemble your VAX from parts, first realize that some of
them (BabyVAXen in my terminology) consist of a single system board. On the
other end of the spectrum there are huge beasts. Although they do consist
of a myriad of boards, they are so specialized that you are very unlikely
to ever find a board for one laying separately. The only VAXen that one can
realistically build from parts are Q-bus ones. To build one, you need a Q-
bus enclosure with a Q22-bus backplane, a Q-bus VAX CPU (KA6xx), and,
unless your CPU has on-board Ethernet and DSSI, Q-bus disk and tape
controllers and a Q-bus Ethernet interface (DEQNA or DELQA). Of course, you
also need the disk and tape drives themselves.
   
   Good luck!
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sun Aug  2 21:18:34 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:18:34 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
I nominate the name   The Unix Society

Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like
Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals.

While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-),
I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs,
ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the
mailing list!!!

My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from
Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of
days.

Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.

	Warren

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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Mon Aug  3 01:42:14 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 16:42:14 +0100
Subject: Thoughts on vaxen....
In-Reply-To: <199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <9807311740.AA16914@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
	<199807312330.TAA09661@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <199808021542.QAA06412@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk>

* User Rdkeys Robert D Keys wrote:

> What should one look for in a VAX?

At least over here, the vax that `everyone' had was an 11/750, which
is one reasonably-sized-but-very-heavy cabinet, with the CPU &c, and
usually tape & disk in one or more other boxes.  These things run 4.2
& 4.3 (and earlier I'm sure), and are a bit more tractable than the
11/780 (but slower).  I'd guess that these things should be still
available in large numbers, but maybe they've all been scrapped by
now.  There are many faster & smaller ones, but I always figured that
the 750 & 780 were the most proper vaxen...

--tim



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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 09:25:53 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:55:53 +0930
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 09:18:34PM +1000
References: <199808021118.VAA11148@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com>

On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 21:18:34 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> I nominate the name   The Unix Society
>
> Such a society could have chapters which focus on particular things like
> Vax Unixes, PDP-11 Unixes etc., but share common high-level goals.
>
> While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen :-),
> I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of different beliefs,
> ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in mind when mailing to the
> mailing list!!!
>
> My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms. Mail yesterday from
> Kirk McKusick says that the 4-CD BSD set should be ready within a matter of
> days.
>
> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.

I don't see the difference in case between UNIX and Unix as
significant in defining what part of speech it means, and we've
already discovered that lawyers prefer UNIX, but will accept Unix if
they want to make a case about violating the conditions of use of the
name.  I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
not to use it.

More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.

OK, PUPS may be wearing thin, and I wasn't really serious with OUPS (I
tried, unsuccesfully, to find an expansion for OOPS), but I think we
need to look a little further if we want to change the name.

Greg
--
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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 09:35:17 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:35:17 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 08:55:53 am"
Message-ID: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Greg Lehey:
> > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> > I nominate the name   The Unix Society ...
> > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
> 
> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
> not to use it.
> 
> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
> anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.

Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, 
Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.

We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
/The UNIX Heritage Society/i

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 09:54:52 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:24:52 +0930
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:35:17AM +1000
References: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday,  3 August 1998 at  9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
>>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
>>> I nominate the name   The Unix Society ...
>>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
>>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
>>
>> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
>> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
>> not to use it.
>>
>> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
>> anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
>> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
>
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
>
> We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i

Sounds a lot better.  Time for some other comments, when the rest of
the world wakes up.

Greg
--
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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 10:52:42 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 20:52:42 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen
> :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
> different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
> mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
   
   Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
"retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
   
> My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
   
   Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
   
> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> I nominate the name   The Unix Society
   
   and
   
> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
   
   I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
home for them.
   
   Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
   
   Just my two bits.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From djenner at halcyon.com  Mon Aug  3 11:28:56 1998
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 18:28:56 -0700
Subject: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com>

I think he has a point here:

  Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
  (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
  an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
  (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.

If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
system software.

As to the first P, if not PDP(-11), then what it should refer to
is the original strain of Unix--the Primordial Unix.  Hence:

Primordial Unix Preservation Society.

(I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)

Dave

Michael Sokolov wrote:
> 
>    Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> wrote:
> > While I disagree with Michael's idea of total world domination by Vaxen
> > :-), I believe such a society will be composed of a multitude of
> > different beliefs, ideas, sub-goals and drives. So please bear this in
> > mind when mailing to the mailing list!!!
> 
>    Oh, I'm not saying that VAXen should dominate the mailing list or the
> society, I'm simply saying that my project is to turn them from
> "retrocomputing" into a fully competitive UNIX platform.
> 
> > My main sub-goal is to provide a home for the PDP-11 stuff. I don't yet
> > have the disk space for all the other Unix platforms.
> 
>    Keep in mind, though, that the UNIX(R) mainstream is PDP-11 _AND_ VAX.
> 
> > Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> > preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> > I nominate the name   The Unix Society
> 
>    and
> 
> > Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> > using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
> 
>    I personally think it's a very bad idea to extend the society to cover
> freebies. Let's keep it limited to software that requires an SCO or
> equivalent license. Why? Because otherwise it loses its identity. You can't
> cover all UNIX and "Unix" in the world. Huge organizations like USENIX
> already exist for this purpose. I believe the purpose of the society should
> be to provide a home for the homeless. Here is what I mean by that. People
> using "free Unices" already have scores of mailing lists and newsgroups
> available to them. The only ones who are always left out are the poor
> patriots of True Licensed UNIX(R). So far PUPS has been the only possible
> home for them.
> 
>    Why not have a Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society which will do the same
> thing PUPS does now (provide a central clearinghouse for all licensed
> UNIX(R), keep the central database of SCO license holders, discuss
> licensing issues), but without restricting it to PDP-11s or to mere
> preservation? I don't think we need a huge society with chapters and
> subchapters to cover every possible use of every possible OS. People who
> want to use a particular OS in a particular way should have their own
> mailing lists to discuss really specific issues like hardware, etc. That's
> what I will do for 4.3BSD-Quasijarus when it actually sees the light of
> day. (For now it has a closed consortium. My experience has been that in
> such early stages of development keeping discussions on a public list leads
> to nothing except accusations of "vaporware" and flame wars.) PUPS should
> be a central clearinghouse for licensed UNIX(R), nothing more. Its scope
> should be exactly equal to the scope of the SCO license.
> 
>    Just my two bits.
> 
>    Sincerely,
>    Michael Sokolov
>    Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
>    ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 11:43:38 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:13:38 +0930
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 06:28:56PM -0700
References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com>

On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> I think he has a point here:
>
>   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
>   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
>   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
>   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.

That's rather conservative, isn't it?  If we had done that previously,
there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 11:50:42 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:50:42 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The Unix Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 11:13:38 am"
Message-ID: <199808030150.LAA13307@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Greg Lehey:
> On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> > I think he has a point here:
> >
> >   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> >   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
> >   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> >   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
> 
> That's rather conservative, isn't it?  If we had done that previously,
> there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.

Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 11:54:06 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:54:06 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The Unix Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <199808030150.LAA13307@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 11:50:42 am"
Message-ID: <199808030154.LAA13334@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Warren Toomey:
> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
And lobby SCO for more encompassing cheap UNIX source licenses too.
I forgot to add this sentence.
 
 	Warren
 


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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Mon Aug  3 12:23:17 1998
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:23:17 +0800
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930
References: <19980803085553.H21892@freebie.lemis.com> <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <19980803092452.N21892@freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <19980803102317.65086@krdl.org.sg>

On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:24:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Monday,  3 August 1998 at  9:35:17 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > In article by Greg Lehey:
> >>> Hmm. Looks like we need a larger umbrella group which caters for the
> >>> preservation, use and development of all Unix varieties past and present.
> >>> I nominate the name   The Unix Society ...
> >>> Comments on the suggestion of `The Unix Society' as a name? I'm avoiding
> >>> using UNIX as it's a trademark, and it's an adjective.
> >>
> >> I find the spelling "Unix" looks like the kind of mistake that
> >> people make when they're not aware of these niceties, so I'd prefer
> >> not to use it.
> >>
> >> More generally, though, there's nothing in the name that suggests
> >> anything to do with the history of the system.  For all it says to the
> >> outside world, it's a new competitor to USENIX.
> >
> > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> > thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> > Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
> >
> > We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> > /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
> 
> Sounds a lot better.  Time for some other comments, when the rest of
> the world wakes up.

Awake! I fully agree with all of Greg's statements. Btw. the original way of
writing UNIX was actually unix. Small caps. Of course, using troff you could
take advantage of scaling fonts and say \s-2UNIX\s+2. I'm not sure about the
feeling of dmr and colleagues with respect to UNIX, but I remember him having
a heavy disrespect for STREAMS as compared to streams. The thing is that with
email when saying STREAMS you actually shout, which non of us intend to.

	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs	(pron: curdle)	Fax:   +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road			Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II		Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From djenner at halcyon.com  Mon Aug  3 12:41:58 1998
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 19:41:58 -0700
Subject: The Unix Society
References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com>

I don't think I'm saying what you think I said?  I not trying to
restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.

But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
I'm not clear about what I said!?

Dave

Greg Lehey wrote:
> 
> On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> > I think he has a point here:
> >
> >   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
> >   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
> >   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
> >   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.
> 
> That's rather conservative, isn't it?  If we had done that previously,
> there would never now have been an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
> 
> Greg

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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 12:44:55 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:14:55 +0930
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com>; from David C. Jenner on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 07:41:58PM -0700
References: <9808030052.AA18331@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> <35C51258.2C635E5A@halcyon.com> <19980803111338.W21892@freebie.lemis.com> <35C52376.7A546F4@halcyon.com>
Message-ID: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com>

On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 19:41:58 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
> I don't think I'm saying what you think I said?  I not trying to
> restrict it to nothing, or even not 32-bit.
>
> But then it's Sunday night here, and Monday morning there, so maybe
> I'm not clear about what I said!?
>
> Greg Lehey wrote:
>>
>> On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 18:28:56 -0700, David C. Jenner wrote:
>>> I think he has a point here:
>>>
>>>   Restrict it to whatever the Ancient Unix license from SCO
>>>   (and any equivalent licenses yet to emerge) covers.  In fact,
>>>   an objective could be to try to ADD more systems from vendors
>>>   (like Venix, even Xenix) who required the AT&T license.

OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 12:51:22 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:51:22 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:14:55 pm"
Message-ID: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Greg Lehey:
> OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
> systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
> 
> Greg

After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
the crippled System V for the PDP-11.

You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 13:06:29 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:36:29 +0930
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 12:51:22PM +1000
References: <19980803121455.D25574@freebie.lemis.com> <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980803123629.E25574@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday,  3 August 1998 at 12:51:22 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Greg Lehey:
>> OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
>> systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>
> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.

Yet.  What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years
ago?

> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license,
> and separate binary-only licenses for certain System V
> systems. That's another battle, tho.

Sure.  I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that
we should go tilting at windmills.

Greg
--
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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:12:49 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:12:49 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030312.AA18488@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing.
   
   It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about
the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free"
clones.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:14:16 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:16 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven,
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these
> systems.
   
   Yes!
   
   However, later you write:
> My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i
   
   Nee, see below.
   
   David C. Jenner <djenner at halcyon.com> writes:
> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
> system software.
   
   No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
"preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
system.
   
> Primordial Unix Preservation Society.
   
   Same problem. Why not Proper UNIX(R) Patriot Society?
   
> (I really don't want to change my "pups" email alias!)
   
   I agree. Hence my suggestion above.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:14:39 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:14:39 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> I'd disagree with that last sentence, as it excludes System V.
   
   Yes, you are right.
   
> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
   
   Yes!
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:15:15 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:15:15 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030315.AA18511@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
> [...] an SCO licence for 16 bit UNIX.  If we
> do it now, there will never be a license for 32 bit UNIX.
   
   Excuse me, sir, I have to make a point here. The SCO license _DOES_
cover 32-bit UNIX(R), namely 32V! 32V is the first version of UNIX for 32-
bit machines aka VAXen, and it's the mother of EVERYTHING known today as
West Coast UNIX, from 3BSD to the freebies, whether for VAXen or other 32-
bit CPUs.
   
   As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!
   
   Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
on more than just PDP-11s.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 13:15:35 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:15:35 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <19980803123629.E25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:36:29 pm"
Message-ID: <199808030315.NAA15369@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Greg Lehey:
> > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> > the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
> 
> Yet.  What did the situation look like for the Seventh Edition 5 years
> ago? I was just saying we shouldn't accept the status quo, not that
> we should go tilting at windmills.
> Greg

I agree that we should continue to lobby SCO, and more importantly so now
that we have a foothold. I'm just pointing out the current `reality', but
I'm sure it will change over time.

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 13:16:57 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:57 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030312.AA18488@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:12:49 pm"
Message-ID: <199808030316.NAA15399@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Michael Sokolov:
>    Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> > Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> > thing.
>    
>    It is absolutely crucial, since it emphasizes that we are talking about
> the one single system named UNIX, rather than any of its teenage "free"
> clones.

If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover,
then I'd say this was pretty reasonable.

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Aug  3 13:26:16 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:16 +0930
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:14:16PM -0400
References: <9808030314.AA18492@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <19980803125616.F25574@freebie.lemis.com>

On Sunday,  2 August 1998 at 23:14:16 -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>    Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
>> If this is the case, the "Preservation" part of PUPS is OK, since
>> what we are trying to do is preserve the use of this strain of
>> system software.
>
>    No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
> on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
> "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
> suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
> to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
> system.

I would have a problem being a "Patriot".

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:31:14 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:31:14 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com> writes:
> OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bis
> systems.
   
   You still don't get it. WRONG!
   
   Quoting from the license text:
> 3.  LICENSED SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS
>
> The SOURCE CODE PRODUCTS to which SCO grants rights under this
> Agreement are restricted to the following UNIX Operating Systems,
> including SUCCESSOR OPERATING SYSTEMs, that operate on the 16-Bit
> PDP-11 CPU and early versions of the 32-Bit UNIX Operating System
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> with specific exclusion of UNIX System V and successor operating
> systems:
>
> 16-Bit  UNIX Editions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
> 32-bit  32V
  ^^^^^^^^^^^
   
   Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu  Mon Aug  3 13:42:53 1998
From: msokolov at blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 98 23:42:53 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <9808030342.AA18616@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> If having a source license was a requirement for the systems we cover,
> then I'd say this was pretty reasonable.
   
   It is, isn't it?
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Phone: 216-368-6888 (Office) 440-449-0299 (Home) 216-217-2579 (Cellular)
   ARPA Internet SMTP mail: msokolov at blackwidow.CWRU.Edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 13:45:52 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:45:52 +1000 (EST)
Subject: What to do now with PUPS
In-Reply-To: <9808030315.AA18511@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu> from Michael Sokolov at "Aug 2, 98 11:15:15 pm"
Message-ID: <199808030345.NAA15453@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Michael Sokolov:
>    As I have said all along, PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on PDP-11s has been
> the source of a lot of grief for us the VAX lovers. It is the reason why
> SCO's license talks so much about PDP-11s and the reason I have had so much
> trouble obtaining the software I need, since everyone believes that the SCO
> license is limited to 16-bit toys. Of course it is not, and in fact it is
> the reason why Marshall Kirk McKusick is releasing the CD-ROMs with CSRG's
> code (80% of which is 32-bit), but thanks to PUPS's pre-hung-up'ness on
> PDP-11s, try to explain this to people!
>    
>    Thanks Daemon the gang is finally beginning to realize that UNIX(R) runs
> on more than just PDP-11s.
>    
>    Michael Sokolov

I'd just like to comment on Michael's e-mail, just for the record. The PDP-11
UNIX Preservation Society was, at one point, just me. I'd had help from
Steven Schultz, Tim Shoppa, John Wilson and Torsten Hippe, and my personal
goal was to get copies of 6th and 7th Edition Unix, for historical reasons.
Since then, people with similar interests have accumulated. We've set up a
mailing list, web page etc.

Steven and I took months to lobby SCO to make source licenses available. We
started in late '95/early '96. Again, we were driven by our own personal goals
of making cheap licenses for PDP-11 UNIXes available. We were also guided
by the web-based survey, see http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/pdpquiz_sum.html,
which showed an awful lot more interest for PDP-11 UNIXes than 32-bit UNIXes.

Yes, PUPS has been hung up on PDP-11s. There's no denying that. It's a result
of the personal drives that Steven, I, and the other active members of the
mailing list have. If we have caused grief to the VAX users, it was
unintentional. 

The license that we negotiated with SCO was based as much on our personal
goals as on pragmatics. During the negotiations, it became apparent that:

	+ There was a substantial bloc at SCO who didn't want ANY license
	+ For the rest, Research Editions 1 to 7 was ok
	+ 32V was dubious: most people didn't want this licensed
	+ System III was also dubious
	+ System V was definitely right out: nobody wanted this licensed

The fact that we got 32V on the SCO license was, in my opinion, damn lucky,
even though I pushed and pushed and pushed for this to be included. SCO,
for their part, probably feel that they have limited the `damage' by only
licensing the 16-bit systems, and 32V (grudgingly).

Now why was I pushing 32V so hard? Because I knew it would open the path
for CSRG to release the BSD flavours. This is the ONLY reason why I fought
so hard for it to be included in the license.


Hopefully this has filled in some of the background on the behind-the-scenes
work. I agree that, up to now, the effort has concentrated on the 16-bit
systems. I knew that, by getting 32V into the license, it would give scope
for the 32-bit systems. At the same time, there was NO WAY that SCO would
have licensed any other 32-bit system. The license we have reflects SCO's
legal concerns as much as the negotiators' PDP preference.


However, 32V is licensed, and Kirk will be selling the CRSG BSD releases
on a 4-CD set next week. A fair proportion of PDP-11 UNIX history has been
saved. Now it's time for those with a preference for other systems to
extend what has been achieved. Go for it!

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Aug  3 14:04:19 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:04:19 +1000 (EST)
Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <19980803125616.F25574@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Aug 3, 98 12:56:16 pm"
Message-ID: <199808030404.OAA15507@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Greg Lehey:
	Michael writes:
> >    No, no, PLEASE get rid of that "preservation" stigma. It's like a brand
> > on a slave, a constant reminder of limits and constraints. Terms like
> > "preservation", "historical", "heritage", "primordial", "ancient", etc. all
> > suggest something of purely historical value. This is EXTREMELY insulting
> > to those of us for whom True UNIX(R) is the ONLY multiuser operating
> > system.
> 
> I would have a problem being a "Patriot".
> 
> Greg

Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate,
as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact,
we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think.

My dictionary says a patriot is one who is zealous for his country's
freedom or rights, and a zealot is an uncompromising or extreme partisan
or fanatic.

I would also have a problem being a "Patriot". If I was uncompromising,
we would have no cheap SCO license. I don't think we need to retro-fit a
name into the PUPS acronym.

I'm still in favour of The UNIX Heritage Society.

For those unaccustomed to the amount of traffic on the PUPS list,
don't forget that you can switch to the digest version.

	echo 'subscribe pups-digest' | mail majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au

    Warren

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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Mon Aug  3 14:00:42 1998
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:00:42 +0800
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>; from Michael Sokolov on Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400
References: <9808030331.AA18573@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <19980803120042.27955@krdl.org.sg>

Mikhail,

On Sun, Aug 02, 1998 at 11:31:14PM -0400, Michael Sokolov wrote:
>    
>    Do you get it know? Probably not. Oh well.

Last time I met Greg he was still able to read, although he needs glasses already.
I think that his glasses actually do a very good job since he was figuring that
the license explicitely blocks access to System V and friends (Please read your own
email again).

The thing is that there are people out there who really enjoy the PDP-11 as a smart
machine. Those people presumably have written code for this machine in assembler.
Another group of people is interested in the early roots of unix. The PDP-11 in
that case serves as a host for this interest. But the historic interest does not
stop at the hardware of the PDP-11, it is rather an interest in the full life cycle
of the OS. 32V, while important, is really a hack rather than a 32bit port of the
UNIX or BSD operating system. Those people who make statements about 32bit UNIX not
being available are very likely aware of this fact, either because they where there
at the time this happend, or, like myself, have devoured every interesting UNIX book
around and have also come across Peter H. Salus' A quater century of UNIX. You might
find it interesting to read, too.

With respect to PUPS I do understand that we are interested in the history of UNIX
and that the term Warren coined fits exactly our idea. There is nothing wrong with
renaming PUPS but leave the email alias as it is. Those interested in the history
of the society (we are getting recursive on history by now) can read on the Web Page
that we originally dealt with the Preservation of the PDP-11 UNIX only.

Regards,
	Joerg
-- 
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs	(pron: curdle)	Fax:   +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road			Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II		Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From bdc at world.std.com  Mon Aug  3 15:00:18 1998
From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase)
Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 22:00:18 -0700 (PST)
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <199808022335.JAA12929@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980802215441.8525C-100000@world.std.com>

On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Warren Toomey wrote:

> Hmm, I don't like the all-caps UNIX, looks ugly. This is probably a taste
> thing. I wanted to avoid the word `preservation', as people like Steven, 
> Michael and others are still maintaining, using and developing these systems.
> 
> We need a sub-committee to come up with a new name :-) My next suggestion is
> /The UNIX Heritage Society/i

I seem to recall a direct quote of either Thompson or Ritchie saying that
they'd intended to use the name "Unix" instead of "UNIX" but that is what
the OS was trademarked with by the Bell Labs lawyers.  It may have been on
one of their personal web pages that I read it. 

-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Mon Aug  3 23:11:02 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:11:02 -0400
Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society
Message-ID: <199808031311.AA10670@world.std.com>

< Heritage means: that which may be inherited. I think this is appropriate
                             ^^^
                             has

Heritiage is generally historical in context be it previous or present 
tense for the future.

Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may 
have been lost.  One assumes the license grantors actually have complete 
sources.  In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but 
little of the code.

< as we have all inherited a wonderful system from Ken and Dennis. In fact
< we've inherited the UNIX paradigm, which influences the way we think.

True.

The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially 
viable or no support) and those that have commercial value.  

Let us not forget Mike is trying to develop a commercially viable OS 
that is not free or shareware.

Also by and large Mike is in the process of doing what other call 
archeology.  One must resore and understand the structure before building
upon it.

The patriot stuff, pure poof.

Allison


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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Mon Aug  3 23:42:53 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 09:42:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "Aug 3, 98 12:51:22 pm"
Message-ID: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> > OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
> > systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
> > 
> > Greg
> 
> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.

Do any of us really want SysV?  One can get that in a free license for unixware
or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.

> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.

Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest.  For the sake of
discussion, maybe that is good.

What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under
the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to
include orphan unices.  Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is
a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past
history.  That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's income.
What might be considered an orphan unix?  One might consider things like
the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use (one would
consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others non-commercial maybe).
One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore.
Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same
and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV.  Xenix falls into the same
quacks like a duck category.  Although Xenix is still used commercially,
it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach
SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort.  I would not expect
them to offer source, although that might be workable after time.  One might
consider the old RT and PS/2 unices (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware.
I am sure there are others.  Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be
suitably binary hobby licensed.  I would have a hard time imagining that
SCO would consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days.
Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a
binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect.
What about something like 386BSD?  That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am
reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing.
These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of,
for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards.

Is this reasonable?

Just thinking out loud.....

If nothing else, the discussion is good.....

Bob Keys


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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Tue Aug  4 00:11:52 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys)
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:11:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: The UNIX Heritage Society
In-Reply-To: <199808031311.AA10670@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Aug 3, 98 09:11:02 am"
Message-ID: <199808031411.KAA17764@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> Preservation in teh case of PDP-11 (and otehr 16bit) was needed or it may 
> have been lost.  One assumes the license grantors actually have complete 
> sources.  In the case of at least on other OS they had the license but 
> little of the code.

This is a most interesting point, and one we all need to consider.

I will interpret from Allison's remarks that CP/M may be being referred
to here.  In that case, it was mostly all lost sources, and only a little
was found (and a lot of leftovers kept by the early hacker types).  It would
NOT have been possible to recreate or resurrect it without such help.

The one thing that I have noted in the 28 years I have played with computers
(only the last 20 seriously), is that sources tend to get very lost in the
passage of time.  Alas, if you try to recreate or resurrect the old early
boxes, you are lost without the tidbits of sources, binaries,  and OS notes
that seem to be all to vaporware, anymore.  So much of it is NOT kept around
by the companies.  And, many of the companies are bellyup, or have passed
through so many hands, that the original materials are long forgotten or
gone.

Somehow, we need to collectively keep enough of the bits and pieces so
that down the road, others may be able to see what it was actually all
about.  I heartily applaud the efforts of all the various groups like
the PUPS, and the efforts of folks like Warren and Kirk to keep the
unix flavors alive.
 
> The key here is there are two types of OSs, retired(not commercially 
> viable or no support) and those that have commercial value.  

I would expect that our collective interests center on the former,
even though some/many of us may dabble in it commercially/professionally.

Bob Keys


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From joerg at krdl.org.sg  Tue Aug  4 12:14:43 1998
From: joerg at krdl.org.sg (Joerg Micheel)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:14:43 +0800
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400
References: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <19980804101443.54947@krdl.org.sg>

On Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
> > cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
> > the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
> 
> Do any of us really want SysV?  One can get that in a free license for unixware
> or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.

Sure, try writing a driver or some stuff that involves kernel variables - and you
are stuck. Actually, this reminds me that Sun did a large buy-out for System V and
the procedure for getting Solaris kernel sources has become dramatically more easy.
They might still send it to you for a nominal fee (last time DM 4,600), as long as
you use it for non-commercial purposes (e.g. universities, research institutes).

Anybody more detailed information on this ?

	Joerg
----
Joerg B. Micheel			Email: <joerg at krdl.org.sg>
SingAREN Technology Center		Phone: +65 7705577
Kent Ridge Digital Labs	(pron: curdle)	Fax:   +65 7795966
11 Science Park Road			Pager: +65 96016020
Singapore Science Park II		Plan:  Troubleshooting ATM
117685 Singapore			       Networks and Applications

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Tue Aug  4 14:15:23 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:15:23 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu> from "User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys" at "Aug 3, 98 09:42:53 am"
Message-ID: <199808040415.OAA17823@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys:
> Do any of us really want SysV?

Not me :-)

> Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only a
> binary license of some sort would be all that we could collectively expect.
> What about something like 386BSD?  That began in the 4.3BSD era if I am

I've got 386BSD 0.1 sources, but no binaries.

> reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the real thing.
> These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to keep archives of,
> for the purposes and goals that we collectively seem be be heading towards.

I collect most anything :-) UNIX, Unix, [1234]BSD, Minix etc etc.
Don't really want System III or V though, or Slowaris.
 
Ciao,
	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Aug  4 15:09:47 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:39:47 +0930
Subject: Extending the cheap SCO src license
In-Reply-To: <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys on Mon, Aug 03, 1998 at 09:42:53AM -0400
References: <199808030251.MAA13502@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199808031342.JAA17517@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <19980804143947.M25942@freebie.lemis.com>

On Monday,  3 August 1998 at  9:42:53 -0400, User Rdkeys Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>> OK.  The current SCO license is limited specifically to 16 bit
>>> systems.  We'd like to get, say, System V as well.
>>>
>>> Greg
>>
>> After negotiating with SCO, I can safely say that they won't make System V
>> cheaply available for any system, yet. Heck, they wouldn't even let us have
>> the crippled System V for the PDP-11.
>
> Do any of us really want SysV?  One can get that in a free license for unixware
> or such, as it is, if I am understanding things correctly.

You don't get the source with UnixWare.  And yes, I can conceive that
the sources of old versions of System V could be of interest, if only
for the computer etymologist.  I have a Tandem LXN (68020 based SMP
machine, about 11 years old) which ran an interesting version of
System V.2 and V.3.0.  While I was still at Tandem, I backed up the
last versions of the source (in Austin TX), and unfortunately I didn't
discover that the backup failed until I got back to Germany.  AFAIK
the sources are lost forever: they scrapped the machine shortly
after.

>> You might be lucky to get System III added to the source license, and separate
>> binary-only licenses for certain System V systems. That's another battle, tho.
>
> Gee, I sense I have stirred up a wee bit of a hornets nest.  For the sake of
> discussion, maybe that is good.
>
> What I had originally thought was that it might be possible to include under
> the PUPS banner (or whatever it is to be called {PUPS is fine to me}), to
> include orphan unices.  Let me suggest that what I mean by orphan unices is
> a flavor of unix in binary or source that is essentially commercially past
> history.  That would specifically be to keep from camping on SCO's
> income.

In principle, not a bad idea.

> What might be considered an orphan unix?  One might consider things
> like the BSD tree to be orphan, as it relates to non-commercial use
> (one would consider BSDI commercial, but most of the others
> non-commercial maybe).

Well, there are plenty of people actively working on the BSD tree.  I
wouldn't consider it orphan.

> One might consider something like Coherent to be non-commercial anymore.
> Although that is not a ``true'' unix, it sure looks and feels the same
> and quacks very much like a V7 or early SysV.  Xenix falls into the same
> quacks like a duck category.  Although Xenix is still used commercially,
> it may be be time to begin to consider that we might, in due time, aproach
> SCO to offer a hobby style Xenix license of some sort.

I think you would run into extreme resistance inside SCO at the
moment, more than you would for, say, System V Release 1.  Although
it's obsolete, it wasn't that long ago (3 years?) that it was earning
more money for SCO than Open Deathtrap was.

> I would not expect them to offer source, although that might be
> workable after time.  One might consider the old RT and PS/2 unices
> (AOS and AIX 1 and 2) to be orphanware.  I am sure there are others.
> Perhaps even the 3Bx kind of thing could be suitably binary hobby
> licensed.  I would have a hard time imagining that SCO would
> consider the old ATT boxes any sort of a moneymaker these days.
> Where SCO would feel that we are too close to home, then maybe only
> a binary license of some sort would be all that we could
> collectively expect.

What would you do with a binary license.

> What about something like 386BSD?  That began in the 4.3BSD era if I
> am reading things corectly, and it sure walks and quacks like the
> real thing.  These kinds of things, I would think, are of merit to
> keep archives of, for the purposes and goals that we collectively
> seem be be heading towards.

FWIW, 386BSD is available in source form.  Dr. Dobbs still has a
CD-ROM that you can buy.  But 386BSD also evolved into FreeBSD, NetBSD
and OpenBSD, all of which are still alive, kicking and further
developing.  Anything but orphans.  I'm writing this on a FreeBSD
machine.

> If nothing else, the discussion is good.....

Definitely.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca  Tue Aug  4 22:55:30 1998
From: norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca (norman at nose.cs.yorku.ca)
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 08:55:30 -0400
Subject: PUPS, BUPS, BURPS, and other stomach upsets
Message-ID: <IAA06380@lion.cs.yorku.ca>

The recent fuss seems to me to be much overdone, mainly because of
a small number of people with strong views and a restless urge to
type.  Here's my view, which I hold with some strength, but with
little religious zeal.

The top of Warren's web page about PUPS says the society is
`devoted to the preservation of all information related to the
versions of Unix that ran on Digital PDPs.'  It seems pretty
clear to me that his original intent was to collect and keep
historic data, not to Promote The One True Unix nor to Support
Software That We Approve Of nor to Make Money Fast.  (No slur
intended on those who do want to do those things.)  Certainly
that is the basis on which I joined the mailing list, and on
which I've contributed the small amount of time I've put in.

It makes sense to me that efforts to preserve post-PDP11 Unix
systems be coordinated with PUPS, whether that means folding
them into the same society or just having several groups that
share.  I would suggest that a single society (even if run as
several distributed pieces) would probably be less work in the
long run, and think that `UNIX Heritage Society' is a fine name.
(Just plain `UNIX Society' is too broad; it sounds like a
duplication of USENIX.)  Those who think `heritage' and
`preservation' are dirty words are, I think, missing the point;
see the paragraph above.

All of this is likely to involve more work for someone.  I don't
know just who has done what to make PUPS work, but it looks to
me like the bulk of the work has fallen on Warren; certainly he
did the single hardest part, that of getting things started.
Those of us who think the society should do more things should
be prepared to put our money, labour, and whatnot where our mouths
are.

In that spirit: I'm not likely to have much time to help out for
the next few months, as I'm starting a new job, and just keeping
my project to recover the old manuals into machine-readable form
will soak up most of my spare cycles.  (Apologies to all that the
samples and whatnot I'd hoped to put up on the web still aren't
up, by the way; winding down my present work commitments and
trying to arrange a graceful startup of my new ones has taken a
lot more effort than expected.)  It may be possible in my new
world to help out with some computing resources, e.g. a Canadian
mirror of the PUPS archives; I'll try to plan for that in the
already-being-planned upheaval of my new world's computing environment.
If the master PUPS site is short of resources, e.g. could use
another disk or two, I'd be happy to help out with some cash.

I encourage others who can help out to speak up.  Judging by the
amount of mail that has passed through the mailing list recently
(almost 5% of an RK05 by my count), there should be some spare
energy out there somewhere.

It may also be worth while to approach USENIX for support;
preserving UNIX heritage is certainly not foreign to them, and
their current president has some history of preservation work.

Norman Wilson

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From neil at skatter.usask.ca  Wed Aug  5 05:24:11 1998
From: neil at skatter.usask.ca (Neil Johnson)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:24:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <199808041924.NAA16324@hydrus.USask.Ca>

I don't like the idea of focusing the group on versions of unix with 
source licences available for a number of reasons. Expensive source 
licences are available for new versions of unix. If the limitation is 
to an inexpensive hobbiest licence then a somewhat arbitrary price has 
to be set for inexpensive.  A second, and more important objection is 
that we are explicitly excluding users who want to use the free PDP-11 
unix binary licences. Finally, users of other vintage unixes with legal, 
binary only licences would be excluded.

Neil


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Aug  5 05:48:07 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:48:07 -0400
Subject: The Unix Society
Message-ID: <199808041948.AA06220@world.std.com>


How about a direct approach. 

Create UBOS, UBOS spells out to Unix Based Operating Systems.  PUPs would 
then be a sibling as would other potential *nix based OS forums.  the key 
is if you not sure, it goes to UBOS and from there vectored to the best 
fit forum.  Possible sibling forums could be NIX-32 for the 32bit and 
NIX-16 for the other yet not defined 16bit *nix.  there are also 8bit 
flavors and of course 64bit ones as well. No doubt I'm missing a few.

Allison


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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Wed Aug  5 06:09:41 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 21:09:41 +0100
Subject: The Unix Society
In-Reply-To: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
References: <9808030314.AA18496@blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu>
Message-ID: <199808042009.VAA11887@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>

* Michael Sokolov wrote:
   
>> Keep it to systems which require a UNIX source license, then?
   
>    Yes!
   
No no no!  This is really bad.  We should not try and sit down and say
who or what we exclude and who or what we include.  There are hundreds
of Unix and Unix-related systems that ran or run on all sorts of
hardware: trying to define some arbitrary border is just bogus, and is
also pretty disturbing in various respects (`you over there, you're
running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley
code in it on something that isn't even a vax, *you* can't talk to
*us* cos you're not pure enough, nah nah nah').

Let's just not stress about this stuff, and let anyone who is
interested in older Unixoid systems be involved.  The only logical
dividing line is the 16-bit/32-bit one -- really the PDP11/bigger
system one -- and even that is furry (where does 32v live, or the
interdata port, or ?).

It's not like the list is suddenly going to get taken over by people
trying to talk about Linux or Solaris or something: those poeple have
their own lists and are quite happy there.  If people ask
inappropriate questions they won't get answers (or will get polite
pointers to ask somewhere more apropriate).

As for name, I still like my own suggestion of `proper unix
preservation society', though I can see there may be copyright issues.

Most of all, can't we stop all this silly meta-discussion and actually
talk about real interesting stuff!  Here's a question I'd actually
like to know the answer to: have there been ports of Unix or Unix-like
systems to machines with non-power-of-2 word sizes or other `strange'
(by modern standards) machines?

--tim (who's running a 4.2BSD-derivative system with lots of non-bell/non-Berkeley
       code in it on something that isn't even a Vax.
       And is also on holiday, so won't be reading this stuff for a while)


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Aug  5 09:11:53 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:11:53 +1000 (EST)
Subject: A Decision :-)
Message-ID: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working
name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for
now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to
chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well,
maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source
licences, too.

Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest.
Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX
Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page.

If the mailing list becomes too diverse, then people are free to set up
other mailing lists with more restricted topics. Again, I'll add hyperlinks
on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page to the mailing lists.

Suggestions for a better name then `The UNIX Heritage Society' can be mailed
to me :-) Suggestions for the charter of `The UNIX Heritage Society', or
whatever you want to call it, can also be sent to me. I'll add hyperlinks
on the The UNIX Heritage Society web page for each suggestion.

I'd rather this thing be all-inclusive, rather then exclusive. At the same
time, I want people to feel free to set up web/mail resources with more
specific aims. For example, the PUPS web pages are going to stay unchanged.

Now, as Tim suggested, let's stop going round in circles and actually
get back to DOING things :-)

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Aug  5 09:21:28 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Kirk's 4CD BSD set: status
Message-ID: <199808042321.JAA18748@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	Kirk McKusick has updated his web page about his 4CD set of BSD
releases at http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/

Status: production is delayed a further week. Unfortuntely, Kirk is
just about to go off overseas for three weeks, and won't be back
until the end of August. You may place your orders on his web page,
but things won't start to happen until the 1st of September.

Cheers all,

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Aug  5 09:56:04 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:56:04 +1000 (EST)
Subject: TUHS web page: version #0
Message-ID: <199808042356.JAA18931@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group
thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at:

	http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/

Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions, hyperlinks,
background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to knock up a VAX UNIX
web page so I could add a hyperlink to it?

Thanks,
	Warren


From grog at lemis.com  Wed Aug  5 11:57:53 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:27:53 +0930
Subject: A Decision :-)
In-Reply-To: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Aug 05, 1998 at 09:11:53AM +1000
References: <199808042311.JAA18650@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980805112753.U25942@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wednesday,  5 August 1998 at  9:11:53 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Ok, here's the decision (for now). The PUPS mailing list now has the working
> name: The UNIX Heritage Society. The email address will stay the same for
> now. The mailing list topics are controlled by its members, so feel free to
> chat about PDP-11 UNIX, 32-bit UNIX, Unix derived systems, your cat (well,
> maybe not). I'm happy for chat about systems which don't require UNIX source
> licences, too.
> 
> Many people should set up web pages to cover their own particular interest.
> Mine's at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/
> Someone (me?) will set up a web page describing the charter of The UNIX
> Heritage Society, with pointers to everybody's web page.

OK.  Check out http://www.lemis.com/~grog/history.html.

Greg
-- 
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From pb0aia at iaehv.nl  Thu Aug  6 01:11:21 1998
From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:11:21 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: TUHS web page: version #0
Message-ID: <199808051511.RAA26558@IAEhv.nl>

pups at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au said on  Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:13:48 +0200 (CEST)
 wk>The zeroth version of a web page for this all-encompassing group
 wk>thingy to cover all Unix preservation/development etc is now at:
 wk>http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS/
 wk>Feel free (if not compelled) to mail me with suggestions,
 wk>hyperlinks, background artwork etc. Michael, would you be able to
 wk>knock up a VAX UNIX web page so I could add a hyperlink to it?

Maybe I can help (a little). At this moment I am building a site dedicated
to the VAX and its operating systems, mostly concentrating on hardware
info and NetBSD for now, but I also have a links page to a lot of information 
on BSD and generic Unix, and there is a PDP11 links page. I am on this
mailing list because I have several MicroPDP's here, and I want to run
2.11 on them, but at the time I am tinkering with the VAXen more often. 
(Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to request the licence from SCO,
but that won't take too long anymore.)

The site I am building is at http://vaxarchive.ml.org

I would like to mirror the Unix heritage information on this site,
there is room for some more files. Please take a look at my site and
let me know what information you think should be there too that I missed,
so I can make the site more complete.

Kees

-- 

Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org
http://www.iae.nl/users/kees/vax/ - My VAX and old iron collection

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered


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From pechter at shell.monmouth.com  Thu Aug  6 07:15:52 1998
From: pechter at shell.monmouth.com (Bill/Carolyn Pechter)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:15:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
Message-ID: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com>

One thing about preserving the Unix varients.  There's a number of 
interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be interesting
to study.  This may be because of my history major background -- or that
I spent too many years in Field Service for far too many vendors
of these boxes.

One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual 
universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes.
Concurrent (originally  Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice
non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII.

Another Unix (which I'd kill for sources for) is Pyramid's OS/x which
was a SysV/BSD4.2 dual universe box (with both sets of init/getty
and 3 UUCP's).  It was kind of the Universal Unix system.  
Pick your init, universe, UUCP... they're all in there.

AT&T sold these as System 7000's, Siemens-Nixdorf also sold them.
I worked for Pyramid and found it my favorite Unix to this day -- since 
I could mix and match features on the fly.

Both of these versions are pretty dead today.  I don't know if Siemens-Pyramid
even supports OS/x any more (probably not -- since they're going Reliant
SysVR4 and Solaris on the new stuff).  The main drawback to getting
these systems are they were was all implemented  on SysIII or
SysV releases -- so the licenses are constrained by the original "You need
a SysV source license to get our source code plus our license fee."

Bill

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From pb0aia at iaehv.nl  Thu Aug  6 09:46:20 1998
From: pb0aia at iaehv.nl (Kees Stravers)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:46:20 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
Message-ID: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl>

pechter at shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
 pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients.  There's a number of
 pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be
 pe>interesting to study.  This may be because of my history major
 pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for
 pe>far too many vendors of these boxes.
 pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
 pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time
 pe>processes. Concurrent (originally  Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also
 pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as
 pe>Edition VII.

 8< snip >8

Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps?
I have a 5700 here in the basement and a stack of floppies that
should be the install set for RTU 5.0, but the hard disk, a
Fujitsu Eagle, is dead. There is no information on the machine to
be found on the net at all and the newsgroup has been dead for years.
I'd put up a page on the machine myself if I knew something worth
telling about it. I don't have any hardware manuals, only a very 
incomplete set on the OS. 
Can I mount any SMD drive in the machine and tell the install about 
the geometry or do I also have to tell the controller? How do I
copy the disks? Can Teledisk duplicate them? (I once saw that it said it
copied the disk successfully, but the target machine couldn't read it.)

Kees

-- 

Kees Stravers - Geldrop, The Netherlands - pb0aia at amsat dot org
Sysadmin and DEC PDP/VAX preservationist - http://vaxarchive.ml.org

Net-Tamer V 1.08.1 - Registered


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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Aug  6 15:23:54 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:53:54 +0930
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
In-Reply-To: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl>; from Kees Stravers on Thu, Aug 06, 1998 at 01:46:20AM +0200
References: <199808052346.BAA21053@IAEhv.nl>
Message-ID: <19980806145354.H9468@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thursday,  6 August 1998 at  1:46:20 +0200, Kees Stravers wrote:
> pechter at shell.monmouth.com said on Thu, 6 Aug 1998 00:08:07 +0200 (CEST)
>  pe>One thing about preserving the Unix varients.  There's a number of
>  pe>interesting (lesser known) versions with features that may be
>  pe>interesting to study.  This may be because of my history major
>  pe>background -- or that I spent too many years in Field Service for
>  pe>far too many vendors of these boxes.
>  pe>One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual
>  pe>universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time
>  pe>processes. Concurrent (originally  Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also
>  pe>had a very nice non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as
>  pe>Edition VII.
>
>  8< snip >8
>
> Do you have any hardware documentation left on the Masscomps?

I've never even *seen* a Masscomp, but "Writing a UNIX Device Driver",
by Janet Egan and Thomas Teixeira, based on a Masscomp document.  It's
possible that if you can find one of them, they could give you a lead.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Wed Aug 12 09:36:42 1998
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 01:36:42 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <199807311344.AA23930@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Allison J Parent wrote:

> < Then start MAKING them! Our great nation of Workers and Peasants has the
> < military technology in the world! Let's show those bloodsucking capitali
> < that we can make PDP-11s and VAXen better than they ever could!
> 
> They never stopped making them.  Mentec has some really fast 11s.

(Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not
into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...)

Anyway, to make the list more complete, Quickware makes even faster
pdp-11s last time I looked, and a third player is Strobe Data. So there
are still lots of go in the pdp-11 community, I'll bet it will outlive the
VAXen.

> Mike, take a prozac and chill.  It's all that capitalism that is making 
> all of those old PDP-11s and such available in the first place.  This 
> place is for unix and it's heirs and relations not political ranting.
> We can argue better, first, cleanest, purity after we have captured the 
> code and preserved it from loss.

Amen.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu  Wed Aug 12 09:39:57 1998
From: gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov)
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 19:39:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: I'm still alive...
Message-ID: <199808112339.TAA10748@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>

   Dear TUHS members,
   
   Sorry for my sudden disappearance. There was nothing I could do about
it. I am off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 and some time last week my machine
(blackwidow) stopped responding to ping. I have also been away from
computers in general until yesterday. If everything works out OK, I should
be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming
Monday, 17-AUG-1998.
   
   For now I'm using my ancient Cleveland Free-Net account for mail. The
address is in my signature. It's screwed up in a number of ways, starting
with the funny way my name is written, but that's all I have for now. I
originally wanted to follow the PUPS/TUHS list via the WWW archive, but it
appears to be updated in a digest-like fashion (the normal practice for
Majordomo), so that probably won't work out well. Warren, would you please
add my temporary address to the list?
   
   From what I can see in the WWW archive (right now goes up to 5-AUG-1998
morning), the decision as to the future of the society has already been
made. Oh well. Warren, as far as a WWW page or something describing my VAX
UNIX work goes, a little later, OK?
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579
   *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696 at cleveland.freenet.edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Aug 12 09:43:56 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:43:56 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Thoughts...
In-Reply-To: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980812013327.13671E-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE> from Johnny Billquist at "Aug 12, 98 01:36:42 am"
Message-ID: <199808112343.JAA00744@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Johnny Billquist:
> (Maybe it's time to drop out of PUPS, Sokolov is here, and for me, I'm not
> into big old Unix, only pdp-11 stuff...)

Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever
machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages. Therefore
I can't contact him to fix it.
 
Looks like the Unix Heritage Society page at http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/TUHS
is getting some attention. Does anybody have any more hotlinks to add? I know
that there's a 3B2 group somewhere, if I had a URL I'd add it. Ditto for any
other Unix-related heritage pages.

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu  Thu Aug 13 15:57:30 1998
From: gq696 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Mike Michael Sokolov)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:57:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Thoughts...
Message-ID: <199808130557.BAA14749@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu>

   Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes:
> Unfortunately, Michael's email address has stopped working i.e whatever
> machine holds the MX record isn't taking incoming mail messages.
   
   Actually there is no MX record. blackwidow.CWRU.Edu is an alias (CNAME
record) for blackwidow.SOML.CWRU.Edu, which has IP address 129.22.50.4.
This IP address belongs to my VAX running Ultrix. Some time last week it
stopped responding to ping, and because I'm off-campus since 3-AUG-1998 I
can't do anything about it right now. If everything works out OK, I should
be able to come back to campus and get my machine back up the coming
Monday, 17-AUG-1998.
   
   Sincerely,
   Michael Sokolov
   Cellular Phone: 216-217-2579
   *TEMPORARY* ARPA Internet SMTP mail: gq696 at cleveland.freenet.edu

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From rickgc at calweb.com  Fri Aug 14 09:03:04 1998
From: rickgc at calweb.com (Rick Copeland)
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:03:04 -0700
Subject: PDP-1103
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980813160254.0091bbe0@pop.calweb.com>

Dear List,

I am trying to work with a PDP 1103 that has been removed from a Vax
11/785.  The goal is to be able to write RX01's with the required boot
blocks required by NetBSD Vax to boot the 11/785. I figured that since I
had several of these 1103's that I could set one up specifically to write
RX01's by running some kind of operating system on one that would talk to
one of my other machines(Sun 3/80 running NetBSD, Sparc 2 running Solarus
2.51, Vax 3600 running NetBSD, i86's running FreeBSD, NetBSD, Windows 95)
via rs232 or what ever.

Anyone got any ideas how I might do this?

Thanks,

Rick Copeland
Information Systems Manager
InterMag, Inc.
(916) 568-6744 x36

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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Wed Aug 19 00:31:38 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:31:38 +0100
Subject: Old Unix Preservation -- How to save the SysV varients
In-Reply-To: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com>
References: <199808052115.RAA12664@shell.monmouth.com>
Message-ID: <199808181431.PAA19142@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>

* Carolyn Pechter wrote:

> One example is Masscomp/Concurrent's early RTU which had dual 
> universes (SysIII-SysV/BSD libraries), DEC-like ASTs and real-time processes.
> Concurrent (originally  Interdata, Perkin-Elmer) also had a very nice
> non virtual memory SysVRel2 called Xelos as well as Edition VII.

I may well have acces to tapes for RTUs of 1988-89 vintage, as there
were several masscomps here (in fact there still is at least one in
the basement, not working).  No source though of course, and without
source they are probably less interesting.  I remember RTU as being
deeply unpleasant, but that may have been more due to the HW which was
extremely flaky, at least on the bigger of our machines.

--tim






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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Aug 19 13:06:45 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:06:45 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Yet More SCO Licenses
Message-ID: <199808190306.NAA12804@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

A whole bunch of SCO licenses have arrived on my desk, bringing the total
of Ancient UNIX licenses to 67.

Joseph Bickel, Atindra Chaturvedi, Peter Chubb, J. D. Knaebel, Eric Delgado,
Hendrik Dykstra, Glenn Geers, Michael Homsey, Michael J. Haertel, Andrew Lynch,
Keizo Maeda, Giegrich Michael, Lyndon Nerenberg, and Jim Williams

are all now licensed.

Cheers all,

	Warren

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