From lm at mcvoy.com  Wed Aug  1 14:15:59 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 21:15:59 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Doug McIlroy's C++ regular expression library (mostly)
 revived
In-Reply-To: <201807290602.w6T62jr1018355@freefriends.org>
References: <201807282231.w6SMVcWT097678@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <201807290602.w6T62jr1018355@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <20180801041559.GL23233@mcvoy.com>

The old school Unix guys are just like this.  I asked BWK about awk and
he tarred up ~bwk/awk and sent me the source to awk, to the awk book,
it was crazy cool.

And it's crazy cool that us "younger" (I feel pretty old but younger
than the Unix guys) folks get to hang out with the people who were 
there at the beginning.  I can't tell you how grateful I am to be on
this list with these people.

On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 12:02:45AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> Dr. McIlroy,
> 
> Much thanks for this!  If you don't object, I will add this note to the
> repo as it provides insight into the wherefores of the package.
> 
> At this point, I must also give credit where credit is due:
> 
> * Chet Ramey, who suggested that I ask Russ Cox to take a look at the package,
> * Russ Cox, who fixed the major problems and got all the tests to pass,
> * Rares Aioanei, who volunteered to tackle fixing things but did not get
>   to do so before Russ beat him to it.
> 
> As implied by the above, the package is now up-to-date and functional!
> I hope it's of interest to the broader community.
> 
> My own reason for seeking this out is that I have (likely vain) hopes
> of one day finding a better regex package to use for gawk.  But
> regular expressions are interesting in their own right. Russ Cox has
> a series of papers on his web site about them that are worth reading.
> 
> Finally, thanks again to Dr. McIlroy for humoring me and giving me
> his code to play with.
> 
> Arnold
> 
> 
> Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
> > Why would anyone be interested in an old regex package that never was
> > a part of any Unix distro?
> >
> > The driving force was Posix, whose regex spec was quite inscrutable. Could
> > there be a reference implementation? It was easy to fool every
> > implementation I could get my hands on, including Gnu's over-the-top
> > 9000-line implementation.
> >
> > But as I got into it, I got fascinated by regexes per se. In making a
> > recognizer, there's a tradeoff between contruction time and execution
> > time. Linear execution can be achieved, but at a potentially exponential
> > cost in construction time (and space). Backreferencing takes the regex
> > languages out of the class of regular languages.
> >
> > Recalling that regular languages are closed under intersection and
> > negation, I wondered about how to implement new regex operators, &
> > and -. I came up with a scheme for this optional non-Posix feature that
> > involved layering continuation-passing over more traditional methods. And
> > while I was at it, I broke out smaller sublanguages for special treatment
> > (as does Gnu), all the way down to Knuth-Morris-Pratt for expressions
> > in which the only operation is catenation.
> >
> > And finally, having followed the development of C++ from its infancy,
> > I wanted to try out its new template facility, so there's a bit of
> > that in the package, too. Arnold has discovered that not only has C++
> > evolved, but also that without the discipline of -Wall to force clean
> > code, I was rather cavalier about casting, both explicitly and implicitly.
> >
> > The only real customer the code ever had was the AST project, which
> > translated it to C. After the C++ had sat idle for a half-dozen years, I
> > thought to revive it in Linux, but found it riddled with incompatibilities
> > with that new environment and gave up. Arnold deserves a citation for
> > bravery in pushing that through 15 years further on.
> >
> > Doug

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 


From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Thu Aug  2 22:44:56 2018
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2018 08:44:56 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Per Brinch Hansen
Message-ID: <201808021244.w72CiuU4025022@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

A tangential connection to early Unix experience:

My collection of early computer manuals includes Brinch Hansen's manual
for the RC 4000, which stands out for its precise description of the
CPU logic--in Algol 60! It's the only manual I have seen that offers a
good-to-the-last-bit formal description of the hardware.

DEC presented something of the sort for the PDP-11, but punted where
the woods got thick. When I wanted to know how they computed the last
bit of floating-point results, I got no satisfaction. Amidst a thorough
description of addressing came this formulation of the actual computation:
"form floating point result".

Doug


From ben at cogs.com  Thu Aug  2 23:10:54 2018
From: ben at cogs.com (Ben Greenfield)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 09:10:54 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Per Brinch Hansen
In-Reply-To: <201808021244.w72CiuU4025022@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201808021244.w72CiuU4025022@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <D90616BE-7136-4782-B45A-427423F1FC1B@cogs.com>

Is this a weblink to that manual?

I want to read something so well written:)

Ben

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b77f/02dedb784a52229c5376277173c5ef6da5c1.pdf

> On Aug 2, 2018, at 8:44 AM, Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
> A tangential connection to early Unix experience:
> 
> My collection of early computer manuals includes Brinch Hansen's manual
> for the RC 4000, which stands out for its precise description of the
> CPU logic--in Algol 60! It's the only manual I have seen that offers a
> good-to-the-last-bit formal description of the hardware.
> 
> DEC presented something of the sort for the PDP-11, but punted where
> the woods got thick. When I wanted to know how they computed the last
> bit of floating-point results, I got no satisfaction. Amidst a thorough
> description of addressing came this formulation of the actual computation:
> "form floating point result".
> 
> Doug



From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Aug  3 00:07:34 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 07:07:34 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Per Brinch Hansen
In-Reply-To: <D90616BE-7136-4782-B45A-427423F1FC1B@cogs.com>
References: <201808021244.w72CiuU4025022@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <D90616BE-7136-4782-B45A-427423F1FC1B@cogs.com>
Message-ID: <20180802140734.GC24473@mcvoy.com>

I suspect not, I suspect his first reference is the one you want.

On Thu, Aug 02, 2018 at 09:10:54AM -0400, Ben Greenfield via TUHS wrote:
> Is this a weblink to that manual?
> 
> I want to read something so well written:)
> 
> Ben
> 
> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b77f/02dedb784a52229c5376277173c5ef6da5c1.pdf
> 
> > On Aug 2, 2018, at 8:44 AM, Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > A tangential connection to early Unix experience:
> > 
> > My collection of early computer manuals includes Brinch Hansen's manual
> > for the RC 4000, which stands out for its precise description of the
> > CPU logic--in Algol 60! It's the only manual I have seen that offers a
> > good-to-the-last-bit formal description of the hardware.
> > 
> > DEC presented something of the sort for the PDP-11, but punted where
> > the woods got thick. When I wanted to know how they computed the last
> > bit of floating-point results, I got no satisfaction. Amidst a thorough
> > description of addressing came this formulation of the actual computation:
> > "form floating point result".
> > 
> > Doug

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 


From asbesto at freaknet.org  Fri Aug  3 00:25:31 2018
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 14:25:31 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Australian Computer Museum Society collection faces
	bulldozers
Message-ID: <20180802142531.GA16356@freaknet.org>


IDK if you know this, but

https://www.itnews.com.au/news/australian-computer-museum-society-collection-faces-bulldozers-499452

:(

-- 
[ ::::::::: 73 de IW9HGS : http://freaknet.org/asbesto ::::::::::: ]
[ Freaknet Medialab :: Poetry Hacklab : Dyne.Org :: Radio Cybernet ]
[ NON SCRIVERMI USANDO LETTERE ACCENTATE  -  NON MANDARMI ALLEGATI ]
[ *I DELETE* EMAIL > 100K, ATTACHMENTS, HTML, M$-WORD DOC and SPAM ]



From bakul at bitblocks.com  Fri Aug  3 01:44:01 2018
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2018 08:44:01 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Per Brinch Hansen
In-Reply-To: <20180802140734.GC24473@mcvoy.com>
References: <201808021244.w72CiuU4025022@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <D90616BE-7136-4782-B45A-427423F1FC1B@cogs.com>
 <20180802140734.GC24473@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <170A1322-620F-46EE-8BA3-8BF295EC6E3A@bitblocks.com>

I think it is this one: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/regnecentralen/RC_4000_Reference_Manual_Jun69.pdf

Along these lines, at least one of Fujitsu’s high end network switches was described using PowerPoint slides. At one point while working for them I felt a software simulator of the switch would really help with testing switch software. So I started developing one on my own. That is when I discovered these slides were not only very detailed but also very accurate and quite clear. They answered every question I had during the development. I have never seen such /engineering/ use of PowerPoint anywhere else.

> On Aug 2, 2018, at 7:07 AM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> I suspect not, I suspect his first reference is the one you want.
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 02, 2018 at 09:10:54AM -0400, Ben Greenfield via TUHS wrote:
>> Is this a weblink to that manual?
>> 
>> I want to read something so well written:)
>> 
>> Ben
>> 
>> https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/b77f/02dedb784a52229c5376277173c5ef6da5c1.pdf
>> 
>>> On Aug 2, 2018, at 8:44 AM, Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A tangential connection to early Unix experience:
>>> 
>>> My collection of early computer manuals includes Brinch Hansen's manual
>>> for the RC 4000, which stands out for its precise description of the
>>> CPU logic--in Algol 60! It's the only manual I have seen that offers a
>>> good-to-the-last-bit formal description of the hardware.
>>> 
>>> DEC presented something of the sort for the PDP-11, but punted where
>>> the woods got thick. When I wanted to know how they computed the last
>>> bit of floating-point results, I got no satisfaction. Amidst a thorough
>>> description of addressing came this formulation of the actual computation:
>>> "form floating point result".
>>> 
>>> Doug
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy                     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180802/19b4b804/attachment.html>

From peter at rulingia.com  Fri Aug  3 20:28:56 2018
From: peter at rulingia.com (Peter Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2018 20:28:56 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Australian Computer Museum Society collection faces
 bulldozers
In-Reply-To: <20180802142531.GA16356@freaknet.org>
References: <20180802142531.GA16356@freaknet.org>
Message-ID: <20180803102856.GF4409@server.rulingia.com>

On 2018-Aug-02 14:25:31 +0000, asbesto <asbesto at freaknet.org> wrote:
>IDK if you know this, but
>
>https://www.itnews.com.au/news/australian-computer-museum-society-collection-faces-bulldozers-499452

They had (and are having) a free-for-all to get rid of stuff.  I
haven't been out there but I'm told that most of the valuable stuff
has gone and what's left is shelves of old monitors and mouldy
manuals.  It's a sad end but it appears the museum contents haven't
been curated or stored properly for a long time.

-- 
Peter Jeremy
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 963 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180803/b2704b80/attachment.sig>

From perry at piermont.com  Mon Aug  6 09:18:18 2018
From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 19:18:18 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Per Brinch Hansen
In-Reply-To: <201808021244.w72CiuU4025022@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201808021244.w72CiuU4025022@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <20180805191818.0ac05b0f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>

On Thu, 02 Aug 2018 08:44:56 -0400 Doug McIlroy
<doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> A tangential connection to early Unix experience:
> 
> My collection of early computer manuals includes Brinch Hansen's
> manual for the RC 4000, which stands out for its precise
> description of the CPU logic--in Algol 60! It's the only manual I
> have seen that offers a good-to-the-last-bit formal description of
> the hardware.
> 
> DEC presented something of the sort for the PDP-11, but punted where
> the woods got thick. When I wanted to know how they computed the
> last bit of floating-point results, I got no satisfaction. Amidst a
> thorough description of addressing came this formulation of the
> actual computation: "form floating point result".

For those that are familiar with the RISC V architecture, there's a
formal specification of the architecture that was done in a system
built on Coq, and also a fully formally verified translation of the
specification into RTL. (The spec didn't include floating point as of
about a year ago but it may by now.)

A good overview of the system involved is here:

http://plv.csail.mit.edu/kami/papers/icfp17.pdf

Followups might belong on the coff list, not sure.

Perry
-- 
Perry E. Metzger		perry at piermont.com


From wkt at tuhs.org  Mon Aug  6 09:53:19 2018
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 09:53:19 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Latest Kernighan interview on Youtube
Message-ID: <20180805235319.GA14811@minnie.tuhs.org>

in 3 parts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmYhR8cUX90
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVpRj3Po6K4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6vtRm5M8I0

Cheers, Warren


From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Aug  6 10:04:17 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 10:04:17 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Edsger Dijkstra, and happy birthday Jon Postel!
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808060955320.79568@aneurin.horsfall.org>

What a weird day...

We lost computer pioneer Edsger Dijkstra in 2002; he gave us ALGOL, 
structured programming, semaphores, and ranted against the GOTO statement 
(much to the distress of the Fortranites and their spaghetti coding). 
Oh, and a certain Prof. Goto used to complain that everybody wanted to 
eliminate him :-)

However, we gained Jon Postel in 1943; with umpteen RFCs to his name, he 
could pretty much be described as the Father of the Internet.

-- 
Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Aug  6 11:15:45 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  5 Aug 2018 21:15:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Edsger Dijkstra,
	and happy birthday Jon Postel!
Message-ID: <20180806011545.29C1F18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Dave Horsfall

    > However, we gained Jon Postel in 1943; with umpteen RFCs to his name, he
    > could pretty much be described as the Father of the Internet.

The problem with using the number of documents as a gauge for that is that Jon
often acted as scribe, so that for many things published under his name, he
was acting more as editor.

As to who (if anyone) does deserve that title, I'm also not sure about the
importance of Cerf and Kahn. NOTE: I am not saying they _didn't_ make the key
contribution - I just haven't looked into it in enough detail to say.

For example, before the TCP/IP effort got rolling, there was something called
the International Packet Network Working Group (INWG) which had a big role,
but which has been poorly documented. There's a note called "The Internet: On
its International Origins and Collaborative Vision" by Rhonda Hauben,
available here:

  http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120/other/misc/haubenpap.rtf

which covers it some, and there's a more recent thing by Alex Mackenzie which
is probably better, but I'm too lazy to go find it.

Louis Pouzin (or whoever it was at CYCLADES who actually had the idea to move
the reliability out of the packet switches, and into the hosts), also would
have a good claim to the title.


Anyway, sorry for the offtopic, but my 'fake history' alarm went off...

	Noel


From steve at quintile.net  Mon Aug  6 20:50:50 2018
From: steve at quintile.net (Steve Simon)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 11:50:50 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1533520802.6258.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <mailman.1.1533520802.6258.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <5697FAD4-4D4C-47CC-8288-C4A022C426BB@quintile.net>

well spec’ed machines where more common in the past. we had all the source for the interdata 3210 at college.

we had the edition 7 source, the driver source, the diagnostic tape source, and even  all the schematics.

two of the lecturers even upgraded it from 1mb to 4mb of RAM, complete with address decoders on their backs with their legs in the air.

-Steve

> On 6 Aug 2018, at 03:00, tuhs-request at minnie.tuhs.org wrote:
> 
> Send TUHS mailing list submissions to
>    tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>    https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>    tuhs-request at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>    tuhs-owner at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TUHS digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: In Memoriam: Per Brinch Hansen (Perry E. Metzger)
>   2. Latest Kernighan interview on Youtube (Warren Toomey)
>   3. In Memoriam: Edsger Dijkstra, and happy birthday Jon Postel!
>      (Dave Horsfall)
>   4. Re: In Memoriam: Edsger Dijkstra,    and happy birthday Jon
>      Postel! (Noel Chiappa)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2018 19:18:18 -0400
> From: "Perry E. Metzger" <perry at piermont.com>
> To: Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Per Brinch Hansen
> Message-ID: <20180805191818.0ac05b0f at jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> On Thu, 02 Aug 2018 08:44:56 -0400 Doug McIlroy
> <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
>> A tangential connection to early Unix experience:
>> 
>> My collection of early computer manuals includes Brinch Hansen's
>> manual for the RC 4000, which stands out for its precise
>> description of the CPU logic--in Algol 60! It's the only manual I
>> have seen that offers a good-to-the-last-bit formal description of
>> the hardware.
>> 
>> DEC presented something of the sort for the PDP-11, but punted where
>> the woods got thick. When I wanted to know how they computed the
>> last bit of floating-point results, I got no satisfaction. Amidst a
>> thorough description of addressing came this formulation of the
>> actual computation: "form floating point result".
> 
> For those that are familiar with the RISC V architecture, there's a
> formal specification of the architecture that was done in a system
> built on Coq, and also a fully formally verified translation of the
> specification into RTL. (The spec didn't include floating point as of
> about a year ago but it may by now.)
> 
> A good overview of the system involved is here:
> 
> http://plv.csail.mit.edu/kami/papers/icfp17.pdf
> 
> Followups might belong on the coff list, not sure.
> 
> Perry
> -- 
> Perry E. Metzger        perry at piermont.com
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 09:53:19 +1000
> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org>
> To: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: [TUHS] Latest Kernighan interview on Youtube
> Message-ID: <20180805235319.GA14811 at minnie.tuhs.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> in 3 parts:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmYhR8cUX90
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVpRj3Po6K4
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6vtRm5M8I0
> 
> Cheers, Warren
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 10:04:17 +1000 (EST)
> From: Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org>
> To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
> Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Edsger Dijkstra, and happy birthday Jon
>    Postel!
> Message-ID:
>    <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808060955320.79568 at aneurin.horsfall.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
> 
> What a weird day...
> 
> We lost computer pioneer Edsger Dijkstra in 2002; he gave us ALGOL, 
> structured programming, semaphores, and ranted against the GOTO statement 
> (much to the distress of the Fortranites and their spaghetti coding). 
> Oh, and a certain Prof. Goto used to complain that everybody wanted to 
> eliminate him :-)
> 
> However, we gained Jon Postel in 1943; with umpteen RFCs to his name, he 
> could pretty much be described as the Father of the Internet.
> 
> -- 
> Dave Horsfall DTM (VK2KFU)  "Those who don't understand security will suffer."
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun,  5 Aug 2018 21:15:45 -0400 (EDT)
> From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
> To: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Edsger Dijkstra,    and happy birthday
>    Jon Postel!
> Message-ID: <20180806011545.29C1F18C09A at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> 
>> From: Dave Horsfall
> 
>> However, we gained Jon Postel in 1943; with umpteen RFCs to his name, he
>> could pretty much be described as the Father of the Internet.
> 
> The problem with using the number of documents as a gauge for that is that Jon
> often acted as scribe, so that for many things published under his name, he
> was acting more as editor.
> 
> As to who (if anyone) does deserve that title, I'm also not sure about the
> importance of Cerf and Kahn. NOTE: I am not saying they _didn't_ make the key
> contribution - I just haven't looked into it in enough detail to say.
> 
> For example, before the TCP/IP effort got rolling, there was something called
> the International Packet Network Working Group (INWG) which had a big role,
> but which has been poorly documented. There's a note called "The Internet: On
> its International Origins and Collaborative Vision" by Rhonda Hauben,
> available here:
> 
>  http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120/other/misc/haubenpap.rtf
> 
> which covers it some, and there's a more recent thing by Alex Mackenzie which
> is probably better, but I'm too lazy to go find it.
> 
> Louis Pouzin (or whoever it was at CYCLADES who actually had the idea to move
> the reliability out of the packet switches, and into the hosts), also would
> have a good claim to the title.
> 
> 
> Anyway, sorry for the offtopic, but my 'fake history' alarm went off...
> 
>    Noel
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5
> ***********************************



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Aug  6 23:06:56 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  6 Aug 2018 09:06:56 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5
Message-ID: <20180806130656.79BF718C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Steve Simon

    > well spec'ed machines where more common in the past.

Err, engineering data is not the same thing as a formal specification. If not,
almost every computer built could be said to have a 'formal spec' - there
usually are engineering documents for anything that was produced in any sort
of quantity.

Also, whether said engineering info is publicly available or not (which seems
to be another of your observations) is an orthogonal axis.

   Noel


From bakul at bitblocks.com  Tue Aug  7 01:52:17 2018
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 08:52:17 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <20180806130656.79BF718C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180806130656.79BF718C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <2EDF09AC-F35B-461A-AB53-9DEB29D9AE25@bitblocks.com>

On Aug 6, 2018, at 6:06 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> From: Steve Simon
> 
>> well spec'ed machines where more common in the past.
> 
> Err, engineering data is not the same thing as a formal specification. If not,
> almost every computer built could be said to have a 'formal spec' - there
> usually are engineering documents for anything that was produced in any sort
> of quantity.

What counts as a "formal spec"? Is it like Justice Potter Stewart's
"I know it when I see it" definition or something better?

> Also, whether said engineering info is publicly available or not (which seems
> to be another of your observations) is an orthogonal axis.

Agree.



From hellwig.geisse at mni.thm.de  Tue Aug  7 02:30:30 2018
From: hellwig.geisse at mni.thm.de (Hellwig Geisse)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 18:30:30 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <2EDF09AC-F35B-461A-AB53-9DEB29D9AE25@bitblocks.com>
References: <20180806130656.79BF718C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <2EDF09AC-F35B-461A-AB53-9DEB29D9AE25@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <1533573030.3671.98.camel@mni.thm.de>

On Mo, 2018-08-06 at 08:52 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> 
> What counts as a "formal spec"? Is it like Justice Potter Stewart's
> "I know it when I see it" definition or something better?
> 

For me, a "formal spec" should serve two goals:
1) You can reason about the thing that is specified.
2) The spec can be "executed" (i.e., there is an
   interpreting mechanism, which lets the spec behave
   like the real thing).

Hellwig


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Aug  7 03:22:54 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  6 Aug 2018 13:22:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5
Message-ID: <20180806172254.340F618C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Bakul Shah

    > What counts as a "formal spec"?

If you aren't familiar with the work in the field (it's been going on long
enough, it was around when I was an undergrad), some of the earlier messages
in the thread, e.g.:

  https://minnie.tuhs.org//pipermail/tuhs/2018-August/014365.html

might provide some thing you could follow. (I'm not into that stuff, so I
point you in the right direction.)

      Noel


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Aug  7 03:26:24 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  6 Aug 2018 13:26:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5
Message-ID: <20180806172624.0453318C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > I'm not into that stuff, so I point you in the right direction.
                                   ^
Sorry, lost a "can't" there.

       Noel




From svyatoslav.mishyn at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 04:26:21 2018
From: svyatoslav.mishyn at gmail.com (Svyatoslav Mishyn)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:26:21 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] Latest Kernighan interview on Youtube
In-Reply-To: <20180805235319.GA14811@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20180805235319.GA14811@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20180806182620.GA47144@cq58.lan>

(Mon, 06 Aug 09:53) Warren Toomey:
> in 3 parts:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmYhR8cUX90
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVpRj3Po6K4
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6vtRm5M8I0

Thank you!


-- 
https://www.juef.space/


From brian at zick.io  Tue Aug  7 06:53:33 2018
From: brian at zick.io (Brian Zick)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 21:53:33 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
Message-ID: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Hi,

I usually just lurk on this list, but I've been curious lately about the origin of the symbols at the end of various interactive prompts.

ksh (etc), bash, sh use $ for non-root, and # for root

csh, tcsh and zsh use % for non-root and # for root

fish and things like mysql, ftp, and interactive shells for a lot of scripting languages use >

rc uses ;

Where do these different conventions originate?

B


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Tue Aug  7 07:16:21 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 17:16:21 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <01c101d42dca$baa2eb70$2fe8c250$@ronnatalie.com>

The early shells (Thompson, Mashey)  used "% " for regular user (and # for root).   The Thompson shell didn't have a setable prompt.
The Bourne shell (V7) had setable PS1 (start of command) and PS2 (continuation prompts) and set the to "$ " and "> " respectively.    Again # was used for root.


-----Original Message-----
From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Brian Zick
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 4:54 PM
To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #

Hi,

I usually just lurk on this list, but I've been curious lately about the origin of the symbols at the end of various interactive prompts.

ksh (etc), bash, sh use $ for non-root, and # for root

csh, tcsh and zsh use % for non-root and # for root

fish and things like mysql, ftp, and interactive shells for a lot of scripting languages use >

rc uses ;

Where do these different conventions originate?

B



From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 07:33:07 2018
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 17:33:07 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <01c101d42dca$baa2eb70$2fe8c250$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <01c101d42dca$baa2eb70$2fe8c250$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBeQJOWdNLT9m+rhS8LEFkRbhBjZt8-utpOxt_nG9mREZg@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 August 2018 at 17:16, <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> The early shells (Thompson, Mashey)  used "% " for regular user (and # for
> root).   The Thompson shell didn't have a setable prompt.
> The Bourne shell (V7) had setable PS1 (start of command) and PS2
> (continuation prompts) and set the to "$ " and "> " respectively.    Again
> # was used for root


Okay, but why did Bourne switch from "%" to "$"?  Was it to inform the user
that they were using the new shell as opposed to the old one, or was there
some other reasoning behind the switch?

-Henry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180806/2ff97385/attachment.html>

From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Aug  7 10:51:12 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 10:51:12 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: Edsger Dijkstra,
 and happy birthday Jon Postel!
In-Reply-To: <20180806011545.29C1F18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180806011545.29C1F18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808071043450.19950@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sun, 5 Aug 2018, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> The problem with using the number of documents as a gauge for that is 
> that Jon often acted as scribe, so that for many things published under 
> his name, he was acting more as editor.

OK, I'll think of some way of modifying it (I am always open to 
corrections, but preferably offline); you won't believe the number of 
"history" sites I've seen that directly contradict each other (even when 
taking UTC/US/local time into account, and I try and use local time 
wherever possible).

-- Dave


From ggm at algebras.org  Tue Aug  7 11:10:09 2018
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 11:10:09 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBeQJOWdNLT9m+rhS8LEFkRbhBjZt8-utpOxt_nG9mREZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <01c101d42dca$baa2eb70$2fe8c250$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAEdTPBeQJOWdNLT9m+rhS8LEFkRbhBjZt8-utpOxt_nG9mREZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn0f0nhhYUdNhVGp197hUL43J8kjU9xOcoRY5RUpZmK1uQ@mail.gmail.com>

Off topic to one side:

I was told, but cannot recall by whom, that the csh decision to use %
when the bourne shell had $ was to make it clear which syntax was
expected by the user. tcsh inherited from csh. Bash/Zsh/Ash/Ksh
inherited from sh.

Obviously that is outside the strict terms of the question and lies in
hands, not this lists main focus.

-G

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 7:33 AM, Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6 August 2018 at 17:16, <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>>
>> The early shells (Thompson, Mashey)  used "% " for regular user (and # for
>> root).   The Thompson shell didn't have a setable prompt.
>> The Bourne shell (V7) had setable PS1 (start of command) and PS2
>> (continuation prompts) and set the to "$ " and "> " respectively.    Again #
>> was used for root
>
>
> Okay, but why did Bourne switch from "%" to "$"?  Was it to inform the user
> that they were using the new shell as opposed to the old one, or was there
> some other reasoning behind the switch?
>
> -Henry


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Tue Aug  7 11:10:28 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:10:28 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBeQJOWdNLT9m+rhS8LEFkRbhBjZt8-utpOxt_nG9mREZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <01c101d42dca$baa2eb70$2fe8c250$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAEdTPBeQJOWdNLT9m+rhS8LEFkRbhBjZt8-utpOxt_nG9mREZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <014e01d42deb$6e4ad730$4ae08590$@ronnatalie.com>

I suspect it was Steve’s personal preference on the Bourne shell.   There’s next to no comments in the thing and the document on the shell just mentions the defaults and that you can change it.

Just for completeness, the PWBSH appears to allow the prompt to be changed with a command line argument.

 

We used to have a shell called “uu” at Hopkins which was sort of a prehistoric “sudo” that ran certain commands (icheck/dcheck/etc…) as root while setting back to the regular uid for others.  It used “@ “ for a prompt.    

 

 

 

From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Henry Bent
Sent: Monday, August 6, 2018 5:33 PM
To: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #

 

On 6 August 2018 at 17:16, <ron at ronnatalie.com <mailto:ron at ronnatalie.com> > wrote:

The early shells (Thompson, Mashey)  used "% " for regular user (and # for root).   The Thompson shell didn't have a setable prompt.
The Bourne shell (V7) had setable PS1 (start of command) and PS2 (continuation prompts) and set the to "$ " and "> " respectively.    Again # was used for root 

 

Okay, but why did Bourne switch from "%" to "$"?  Was it to inform the user that they were using the new shell as opposed to the old one, or was there some other reasoning behind the switch?

 

-Henry

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180806/545f8af3/attachment.html>

From ron at ronnatalie.com  Tue Aug  7 11:12:52 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 21:12:52 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <CAKr6gn0f0nhhYUdNhVGp197hUL43J8kjU9xOcoRY5RUpZmK1uQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <01c101d42dca$baa2eb70$2fe8c250$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAEdTPBeQJOWdNLT9m+rhS8LEFkRbhBjZt8-utpOxt_nG9mREZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKr6gn0f0nhhYUdNhVGp197hUL43J8kjU9xOcoRY5RUpZmK1uQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <015d01d42deb$c4a8ac60$4dfa0520$@ronnatalie.com>

> I was told, but cannot recall by whom, that the csh decision to use % when the bourne shell had $ was to make it clear which syntax was expected by the user. tcsh inherited from csh. Bash/Zsh/Ash/Ksh inherited from sh.

I don't buy it.   CSH predates the Bourne shell by a year.   I suspect it used % because the V6 shell it replaced used %.




From michael at kjorling.se  Tue Aug  7 16:54:54 2018
From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 06:54:54 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>

On 6 Aug 2018 21:53 +0100, from brian at zick.io (Brian Zick):
> rc uses ;

Not sure what came first, and not up to digging out the history books,
but these days, a plain `;` for a prompt has a distinct advantage in
that you can copy the whole line and paste it into another shell, and
the shell will do The Right Thing (tm) as long as (as is, I believe,
done by all of the major shells at least) it uses `;` for command
separation.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)


From khm at sciops.net  Tue Aug  7 17:31:36 2018
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 00:31:36 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>

On Mon, Aug 06, 2018 at 09:53:33PM +0100, Brian Zick wrote:
>
> rc uses ;
       
Does it?  10th edition Unix and Plan 9 rc both have ('% ' ' ') as the   
default value of $prompt.  At least that's how it's described in the
manual.  None of the v8/9/10 tarballs in the archive contain rc code,
but some contain manual source, and those describe % prompts.

I've seen other references to ; (presumably  ('; ' ' ')) as the rc 
prompt but I've never seen it in the wild.  Does anyone here know what 
the story is?
       
khm


From arnold at skeeve.com  Tue Aug  7 17:50:21 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 01:50:21 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
Message-ID: <201808070750.w777oLwj016715@freefriends.org>

Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 06, 2018 at 09:53:33PM +0100, Brian Zick wrote:
> >
> > rc uses ;
>        
> Does it?  10th edition Unix and Plan 9 rc both have ('% ' ' ') as the   
> default value of $prompt.  At least that's how it's described in the
> manual.  None of the v8/9/10 tarballs in the archive contain rc code,
> but some contain manual source, and those describe % prompts.
>
> I've seen other references to ; (presumably  ('; ' ' ')) as the rc 
> prompt but I've never seen it in the wild.  Does anyone here know what 
> the story is?
>        
> khm

I believe that Tom Duff's rc does indeed use ('% ' ' '). But I think that
Byron Rakitsis's version changed the default to ('; ' ' ') exactly for
the reason that it's copyable/pastable.

HTH,

Arnold


From bakul at bitblocks.com  Tue Aug  7 17:57:11 2018
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 00:57:11 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 07 Aug 2018 00:31:36 -0700."
 <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
Message-ID: <20180807075718.C379E156E408@mail.bitblocks.com>

On Tue, 07 Aug 2018 00:31:36 -0700 Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 06, 2018 at 09:53:33PM +0100, Brian Zick wrote:
> >
> > rc uses ;
>        
> Does it?  10th edition Unix and Plan 9 rc both have ('% ' ' ') as the   
> default value of $prompt.  At least that's how it's described in the
> manual.  None of the v8/9/10 tarballs in the archive contain rc code,
> but some contain manual source, and those describe % prompts.
>
> I've seen other references to ; (presumably  ('; ' ' ')) as the rc 
> prompt but I've never seen it in the wild.  Does anyone here know what 
> the story is?

The es shell (by Haar and Rakitzis) used ; - the reason (as
per the man page)is that a user can cut-n-paste a previous
line to rexecute it (for the same reason people use term% and
cpu% functions to execute their args).  Es syntax was derived
from rc, which may be why the confusion.


From michael at kjorling.se  Tue Aug  7 18:02:56 2018
From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 08:02:56 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
Message-ID: <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>

On 7 Aug 2018 06:54 +0000, from michael at kjorling.se (Michael Kjörling):
> the shell will do The Right Thing (tm)

I suspect I must stand corrected on this. Turns out that at least GNU
bash 4.4.12(1) seems to not like a `;` at the beginning of the command
line.

    $ /bin/bash --version | head -n1
    GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
    $ /bin/bash
    $ ; true
    bash: syntax error near unexpected token `;'
    $ echo $?
    2
    $

Hopefully other shells are more sane.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)


From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Aug  7 18:23:37 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 18:23:37 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808071818460.19950@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 7 Aug 2018, Michael Kjörling wrote:

> Hopefully other shells are more sane.

The MacBook here runs GNU bash, version 3.2.57(1)-release 
(x86_64-apple-darwin16) and is equally busted, as is plain "sh" on both 
the Mac and FreeBSD (I can't be bothered checking the Penguin); I use ZSH 
on FreeBSD and it does The Right Thing (tm), as does ZSH on the Mac.

-- Dave

From katolaz at freaknet.org  Tue Aug  7 18:37:23 2018
From: katolaz at freaknet.org (KatolaZ)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 10:37:23 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808071818460.19950@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808071818460.19950@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20180807083723.zuokdnu2zxtn57ov@katolaz.homeunix.net>

On Tue, Aug 07, 2018 at 06:23:37PM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Aug 2018, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> 
> > Hopefully other shells are more sane.
> 
> The MacBook here runs GNU bash, version 3.2.57(1)-release
> (x86_64-apple-darwin16) and is equally busted, as is plain "sh" on both the
> Mac and FreeBSD (I can't be bothered checking the Penguin); I use ZSH on
> FreeBSD and it does The Right Thing (tm), as does ZSH on the Mac.
> 
> -- Dave

I have tried all the shells I have on my linux box. It turns out that
only ksh and zsh like a ";" at the beginning of the line. Otherwise,
bash, busybox, ash/dash, mksk, posh, and yash can't bear it.

I really don't see the point of using ";", especially if you need to
make it clear if a command needs to be run by root.

$ ;-P
sh: 1: Syntax error: ";" unexpected


-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[     "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[       @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[     @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 195 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180807/5a33069a/attachment.sig>

From scj at yaccman.com  Tue Aug  7 07:19:31 2018
From: scj at yaccman.com (Steve Johnson)
Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2018 14:19:31 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <1533573030.3671.98.camel@mni.thm.de>
Message-ID: <50772e199f3dcc5d4eba34d17322b5aef0aa0441@webmail.yaccman.com>


I take a somewhat more relaxed view of what a spec should be:
It should describe a program with enough completeness that a competent
programmer could write it from the spec alone.
Each section of the spec should be capable of being tested.
If all the tests for all the sections pass, then the program is ready
for general use.

The formal systems I have seen would roll over and die when presented
with
even a simple compiler.  Additionally, being able to specify that a
particular
function be carried out by a heapsort, for example, would require that
the
formalism could describe the heapsort and prove it correct.  These
don't
grow on trees...

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hellwig Geisse" <hellwig.geisse at mni.thm.de>
To:<tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Cc:
Sent:Mon, 06 Aug 2018 18:30:30 +0200
Subject:Re: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5

 On Mo, 2018-08-06 at 08:52 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
 > 
 > What counts as a "formal spec"? Is it like Justice Potter Stewart's
 > "I know it when I see it" definition or something better?
 > 

 For me, a "formal spec" should serve two goals:
 1) You can reason about the thing that is specified.
 2) The spec can be "executed" (i.e., there is an
    interpreting mechanism, which lets the spec behave
    like the real thing).

 Hellwig

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180806/a9e9dd10/attachment.html>

From dot at dotat.at  Tue Aug  7 20:45:37 2018
From: dot at dotat.at (Tony Finch)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 11:45:37 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1808071137420.3596@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>

Michael Kjörling <michael at kjorling.se> wrote:
>
> I suspect I must stand corrected on this. Turns out that at least GNU
> bash 4.4.12(1) seems to not like a `;` at the beginning of the command
> line.

This is a consequence of the POSIX shell grammar, which doesn't allow
empty commands.

http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799.2013edition/utilities/V3_chap02.html#tag_18_10

The prompt I have used since about 1997 (and I can't remember where I got
it from - somewhere on Usenet, probably) in its most distilled form is

:;

although in practice I have a load of extra fluff for username, hostname,
CWD, etc. usw.

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot at dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
Fair Isle, Faeroes: South or southwest 4 or 5, occasionally 6 for a time.
Slight or moderate, occasionally rough for a time. Showers. Moderate or good.

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Tue Aug  7 21:24:20 2018
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 12:24:20 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
Message-ID: <aa962935-3b66-e37a-ec55-3cda5cf7ccdb@dunnington.plus.com>

On 07/08/2018 09:02, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> On 7 Aug 2018 06:54 +0000, from michael at kjorling.se (Michael Kjörling):
>> the shell will do The Right Thing (tm)
> 
> I suspect I must stand corrected on this. Turns out that at least GNU
> bash 4.4.12(1) seems to not like a `;` at the beginning of the command
> line.
> 
>      $ /bin/bash --version | head -n1
>      GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
>      $ /bin/bash
>      $ ; true
>      bash: syntax error near unexpected token `;'
>      $ echo $?
>      2
>      $
> 
> Hopefully other shells are more sane.

ksh and sh on an IRIX system don't like it either:

$ ;
ksh: syntax error: `;' unexpected
$

csh and tcsh don't mind.

Of course it works in rc itself, which is the point, really, and I 
wonder how often anyone pasted from one shell into another.  All the rc 
use I've seen did indeed use "; " as the prompt, but that was all at the 
University of York, starting in 1993.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull


From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Tue Aug  7 22:34:16 2018
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 08:34:16 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
Message-ID: <201808071234.w77CYGWG112787@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> The Bourne shell (V7) had setable PS1 (start of command) and PS2 (continuation prompts)

When PS2 came on the scene, Bob Morris noticed that it most often appeared
because of a missing close quote. Therefore he set PS2="hit interrupt".


From brian at zick.io  Wed Aug  8 01:15:07 2018
From: brian at zick.io (Brian Zick)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 16:15:07 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
Message-ID: <1533654907.3701374.1466337000.53253732@webmail.messagingengine.com>

> > rc uses ;
>        
> Does it?  10th edition Unix and Plan 9 rc both have ('% ' ' ') as the   
> default value of $prompt.  At least that's how it's described in the
> manual. 

In NetBSD 7 the default is ';', but I don't see any reference to a default $prompt in the manual on that system. I wonder if this was a change unique to Berkeley.

B


From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 01:52:57 2018
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 10:52:57 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <1533654907.3701374.1466337000.53253732@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
 <1533654907.3701374.1466337000.53253732@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp-n0MrvFu2x+Uts9F+M2eUd6imzU1fkwzwVX+Jixe+b7A@mail.gmail.com>

On vacation, with just an iPad keyboard, so I apologize for not doing more
digging.  As I noted, when taking the blame for the Great Echo Schism, my
early exposure to a hp2640 terminal that allowed “rentry” of a previous
command was partly to blame. It also led me to use a PS1 ending in @, the
default line-kill. When I reentered a command, the @ wiped out the prompt
stuff, and only the command survived.

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:15 AM Brian Zick <brian at zick.io> wrote:

> > > rc uses ;
> >
> > Does it?  10th edition Unix and Plan 9 rc both have ('% ' ' ') as the
> > default value of $prompt.  At least that's how it's described in the
> > manual.
>
> In NetBSD 7 the default is ';', but I don't see any reference to a default
> $prompt in the manual on that system. I wonder if this was a change unique
> to Berkeley.
>
> B
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180807/01891e6b/attachment.html>

From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Aug  8 03:35:49 2018
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 10:35:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1808071137420.3596@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1808071137420.3596@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808071032560.59201@orthanc.ca>

> The prompt I have used since about 1997 (and I can't remember where I got
> it from - somewhere on Usenet, probably) in its most distilled form is
>
> :;

I forget where I stole this from. It lives in $home/lib/profile on my 
Plan9 machines:

# /n/sources/contrib/lyndon/prompt.rc
fn : {}
fn setprompt {
         prompt = (': '^`{cat /dev/user}^@^`{cat /dev/sysname}^':'^`{pwd}^'; '  '        ')
}
fn cd { builtin cd $* && setprompt }
setprompt



From ca6c at bitmessage.ch  Wed Aug  8 04:09:51 2018
From: ca6c at bitmessage.ch (=?utf-8?B?Q8OhZw==?=)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 13:09:51 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <1533654907.3701374.1466337000.53253732@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
 <1533654907.3701374.1466337000.53253732@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <20180807180951.K2s4d%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>

Brian Zick wrote:

> In NetBSD 7 the default is ';', but I don't see any reference to a
> default $prompt in the manual on that system.

It's not. '$' is default for sh and ksh, and '%' for csh. I think
it maybe has never been ';'.

--
caóc



From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Aug  8 04:51:52 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 12:51:52 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <20180807180951.K2s4d%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
 <1533654907.3701374.1466337000.53253732@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807180951.K2s4d%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>
Message-ID: <201808071851.w77Ipq46000843@freefriends.org>

C??g <ca6c at bitmessage.ch> wrote:

> Brian Zick wrote:
>
> > In NetBSD 7 the default is ';', but I don't see any reference to a
> > default $prompt in the manual on that system.
>
> It's not. '$' is default for sh and ksh, and '%' for csh. I think
> it maybe has never been ';'.
>
> --
> ca??c
>

Brian was referring to rc(1) in NetBSD.  I suspect it's Byron's rc
and I think the default there is ';'.

Arnold


From ca6c at bitmessage.ch  Wed Aug  8 05:00:22 2018
From: ca6c at bitmessage.ch (=?utf-8?B?Q8OhZw==?=)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 14:00:22 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <201808071851.w77Ipq46000843@freefriends.org>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
 <1533654907.3701374.1466337000.53253732@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807180951.K2s4d%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>
 <201808071851.w77Ipq46000843@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <20180807190022.ERb1R%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>

arnold wrote:

> Brian was referring to rc(1) in NetBSD.  I suspect it's Byron's rc
> and I think the default there is ';'.

rc is not shipped with NetBSD. There's Byron's rc in pkgsrc, so it could
be that.

--
caóc



From brian at zick.io  Wed Aug  8 05:06:03 2018
From: brian at zick.io (Brian Zick)
Date: Tue, 07 Aug 2018 20:06:03 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <20180807190022.ERb1R%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807073136.GA37082@wopr>
 <1533654907.3701374.1466337000.53253732@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807180951.K2s4d%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>
 <201808071851.w77Ipq46000843@freefriends.org>
 <20180807190022.ERb1R%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>
Message-ID: <1533668763.3785029.1466613112.00F63787@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Cág wrote:
> arnold wrote:
> 
> > Brian was referring to rc(1) in NetBSD.  I suspect it's Byron's rc
> > and I think the default there is ';'.
> 
> rc is not shipped with NetBSD. There's Byron's rc in pkgsrc, so it could
> be that.

Yes, I was referring to the rc in pkgsrc.

B




From wkt at tuhs.org  Wed Aug  8 18:37:06 2018
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 18:37:06 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Sort of off-topic: usefulness of TUHS list and archive?
Message-ID: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>

All, sorry that this is tangential to TUHS. I work at TAFE Queensland, which
is a bit like a polytechnic or a U.S college. As a teacher, I have to
demonstrate industry skills. I've listed my administration of the TUHS server
over 25+ years. However, TAFE wants this to be verified by third parties:

	"Where possible the teacher could show that industry endorses his
	website and any if there are any testimonials/comments/reviews
	available on the site, these could also be provided."

So, if you could pop a sentence or two in reply to this e-mail about
the usefulness of the TUHS archive and the mailing list, that would be
really helpful!

Cheers & thanks in advance, Warren


From don at DonHopkins.com  Wed Aug  8 22:10:32 2018
From: don at DonHopkins.com (Don Hopkins)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 14:10:32 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>

Decades ago I made my prompt simply end with a newline, which perfectly and cleanly solves the problem of making it easy to copy and paste a whole line by multiple clicking in a terminal emulator to select the line, or by using line oriented commands in an emacs shell (or moving to the line and hitting return, which Emacs often regularly fucks up with its idiotic kludges to identify the prompt with invisible marks and regular expressions), without injecting any garbage characters into the beginning of the command line or requiring any extra mouse clicks, precision cursor targeting, or extra keystrokes.

Using “;” or any other character as a prompt is an ugly hack, and doesn’t solve the problem thoroughly or cleanly. No matter what character you use as a prompt at the beginning of the line, it’s going to cause some problems, like semicolons building up each time you re-enter the line, or conflicts with built-in shell syntax (retch!), so the only logical (and most obvious) solution is not to use any characters at the beginning of the line at all, and just put the prompt on a line above on its own. There is no downside to that, unless it somehow offends your sense of aesthetics. (In which case you should get over it.) 

That’s the cleanest solution without any unpleasant side effects. I don’t understand why that solution isn’t the first thing shell users think of, and the default used by the shell — it’s so obvious. Maybe because people used to the shell are just so accustomed to having to deal with mashing together unpleasant hackey kludgy incompatible competing ad-hoc syntax that it would never occur to them that it’s possible to solve a problem by REMOVING punctuation and noise characters instead of ADDING more of them. 

-Don


> On 8 Aug 2018, at 04:00, tuhs-request at minnie.tuhs.org wrote:
> 
> Send TUHS mailing list submissions to
> 	tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	tuhs-request at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	tuhs-owner at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of TUHS digest..."
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Michael Kjörling)
>   2. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Kurt H Maier)
>   3. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (arnold at skeeve.com)
>   4. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Bakul Shah)
>   5. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Michael Kjörling)
>   6. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Dave Horsfall)
>   7. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (KatolaZ)
>   8. Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5 (Steve Johnson)
>   9. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Tony Finch)
>  10. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Pete Turnbull)
>  11. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Doug McIlroy)
>  12. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Brian Zick)
>  13. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (John P. Linderman)
>  14. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Lyndon Nerenberg)
>  15. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Cág)
>  16. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (arnold at skeeve.com)
>  17. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Cág)
>  18. Re: Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > # (Brian Zick)
> 
> From: Michael Kjörling <michael at kjorling.se>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 08:54:54 CEST
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> On 6 Aug 2018 21:53 +0100, from brian at zick.io (Brian Zick):
>> rc uses ;
> 
> Not sure what came first, and not up to digging out the history books,
> but these days, a plain `;` for a prompt has a distinct advantage in
> that you can copy the whole line and paste it into another shell, and
> the shell will do The Right Thing (tm) as long as (as is, I believe,
> done by all of the major shells at least) it uses `;` for command
> separation.
> 
> -- 
> Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
>  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
>              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 09:31:36 CEST
> To: Brian Zick <brian at zick.io>
> Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 06, 2018 at 09:53:33PM +0100, Brian Zick wrote:
>> 
>> rc uses ;
> 
> Does it?  10th edition Unix and Plan 9 rc both have ('% ' ' ') as the   
> default value of $prompt.  At least that's how it's described in the
> manual.  None of the v8/9/10 tarballs in the archive contain rc code,
> but some contain manual source, and those describe % prompts.
> 
> I've seen other references to ; (presumably  ('; ' ' ')) as the rc 
> prompt but I've never seen it in the wild.  Does anyone here know what 
> the story is?
> 
> khm
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: arnold at skeeve.com
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 09:50:21 CEST
> To: khm at sciops.net, brian at zick.io
> Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Aug 06, 2018 at 09:53:33PM +0100, Brian Zick wrote:
>>> 
>>> rc uses ;
>> 
>> Does it?  10th edition Unix and Plan 9 rc both have ('% ' ' ') as the   
>> default value of $prompt.  At least that's how it's described in the
>> manual.  None of the v8/9/10 tarballs in the archive contain rc code,
>> but some contain manual source, and those describe % prompts.
>> 
>> I've seen other references to ; (presumably  ('; ' ' ')) as the rc 
>> prompt but I've never seen it in the wild.  Does anyone here know what 
>> the story is?
>> 
>> khm
> 
> I believe that Tom Duff's rc does indeed use ('% ' ' '). But I think that
> Byron Rakitsis's version changed the default to ('; ' ' ') exactly for
> the reason that it's copyable/pastable.
> 
> HTH,
> 
> Arnold
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 09:57:11 CEST
> To: Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net>
> Cc: Brian Zick <brian at zick.io>, tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> On Tue, 07 Aug 2018 00:31:36 -0700 Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 06, 2018 at 09:53:33PM +0100, Brian Zick wrote:
>>> 
>>> rc uses ;
>> 
>> Does it?  10th edition Unix and Plan 9 rc both have ('% ' ' ') as the   
>> default value of $prompt.  At least that's how it's described in the
>> manual.  None of the v8/9/10 tarballs in the archive contain rc code,
>> but some contain manual source, and those describe % prompts.
>> 
>> I've seen other references to ; (presumably  ('; ' ' ')) as the rc 
>> prompt but I've never seen it in the wild.  Does anyone here know what 
>> the story is?
> 
> The es shell (by Haar and Rakitzis) used ; - the reason (as
> per the man page)is that a user can cut-n-paste a previous
> line to rexecute it (for the same reason people use term% and
> cpu% functions to execute their args).  Es syntax was derived
> from rc, which may be why the confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Michael Kjörling <michael at kjorling.se>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 10:02:56 CEST
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> On 7 Aug 2018 06:54 +0000, from michael at kjorling.se (Michael Kjörling):
>> the shell will do The Right Thing (tm)
> 
> I suspect I must stand corrected on this. Turns out that at least GNU
> bash 4.4.12(1) seems to not like a `;` at the beginning of the command
> line.
> 
>    $ /bin/bash --version | head -n1
>    GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
>    $ /bin/bash
>    $ ; true
>    bash: syntax error near unexpected token `;'
>    $ echo $?
>    2
>    $
> 
> Hopefully other shells are more sane.
> 
> -- 
> Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
>  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
>              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 10:23:37 CEST
> To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
> 
> 
> On Tue, 7 Aug 2018, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> 
>> Hopefully other shells are more sane.
> 
> The MacBook here runs GNU bash, version 3.2.57(1)-release (x86_64-apple-darwin16) and is equally busted, as is plain "sh" on both the Mac and FreeBSD (I can't be bothered checking the Penguin); I use ZSH on FreeBSD and it does The Right Thing (tm), as does ZSH on the Mac.
> 
> -- Dave
> 
> 
> From: KatolaZ <katolaz at freaknet.org>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 10:37:23 CEST
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 07, 2018 at 06:23:37PM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Aug 2018, Michael Kjörling wrote:
>> 
>>> Hopefully other shells are more sane.
>> 
>> The MacBook here runs GNU bash, version 3.2.57(1)-release
>> (x86_64-apple-darwin16) and is equally busted, as is plain "sh" on both the
>> Mac and FreeBSD (I can't be bothered checking the Penguin); I use ZSH on
>> FreeBSD and it does The Right Thing (tm), as does ZSH on the Mac.
>> 
>> -- Dave
> 
> I have tried all the shells I have on my linux box. It turns out that
> only ksh and zsh like a ";" at the beginning of the line. Otherwise,
> bash, busybox, ash/dash, mksk, posh, and yash can't bear it.
> 
> I really don't see the point of using ";", especially if you need to
> make it clear if a command needs to be run by root.
> 
> $ ;-P
> sh: 1: Syntax error: ";" unexpected
> 
> 
> -- 
> [ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
> [     "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
> [       @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
> [     @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
> [ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Steve Johnson" <scj at yaccman.com>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5
> Date: 6 August 2018 at 23:19:31 CEST
> To: "Hellwig Geisse" <hellwig.geisse at mni.thm.de>, tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> I take a somewhat more relaxed view of what a spec should be:
> It should describe a program with enough completeness that a competent
> programmer could write it from the spec alone.
> Each section of the spec should be capable of being tested.
> If all the tests for all the sections pass, then the program is ready
> for general use.
> 
> The formal systems I have seen would roll over and die when presented with
> even a simple compiler.  Additionally, being able to specify that a particular
> function be carried out by a heapsort, for example, would require that the
> formalism could describe the heapsort and prove it correct.  These don't
> grow on trees...
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hellwig Geisse" <hellwig.geisse at mni.thm.de>
> To:<tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> Cc:
> Sent:Mon, 06 Aug 2018 18:30:30 +0200
> Subject:Re: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5
> 
> 
> On Mo, 2018-08-06 at 08:52 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> > 
> > What counts as a "formal spec"? Is it like Justice Potter Stewart's
> > "I know it when I see it" definition or something better?
> > 
> 
> For me, a "formal spec" should serve two goals:
> 1) You can reason about the thing that is specified.
> 2) The spec can be "executed" (i.e., there is an
>    interpreting mechanism, which lets the spec behave
>    like the real thing).
> 
> Hellwig
> 
> 
> 
> From: Tony Finch <dot at dotat.at>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 12:45:37 CEST
> To: Michael Kjörling <michael at kjorling.se>
> Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> Michael Kjörling <michael at kjorling.se> wrote:
>> 
>> I suspect I must stand corrected on this. Turns out that at least GNU
>> bash 4.4.12(1) seems to not like a `;` at the beginning of the command
>> line.
> 
> This is a consequence of the POSIX shell grammar, which doesn't allow
> empty commands.
> 
> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799.2013edition/utilities/V3_chap02.html#tag_18_10
> 
> The prompt I have used since about 1997 (and I can't remember where I got
> it from - somewhere on Usenet, probably) in its most distilled form is
> 
> :;
> 
> although in practice I have a load of extra fluff for username, hostname,
> CWD, etc. usw.
> 
> Tony.
> -- 
> f.anthony.n.finch  <dot at dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
> Fair Isle, Faeroes: South or southwest 4 or 5, occasionally 6 for a time.
> Slight or moderate, occasionally rough for a time. Showers. Moderate or good.
> 
> 
> 
> From: Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 13:24:20 CEST
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> On 07/08/2018 09:02, Michael Kjörling wrote:
>> On 7 Aug 2018 06:54 +0000, from michael at kjorling.se (Michael Kjörling):
>>> the shell will do The Right Thing (tm)
>> I suspect I must stand corrected on this. Turns out that at least GNU
>> bash 4.4.12(1) seems to not like a `;` at the beginning of the command
>> line.
>>     $ /bin/bash --version | head -n1
>>     GNU bash, version 4.4.12(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
>>     $ /bin/bash
>>     $ ; true
>>     bash: syntax error near unexpected token `;'
>>     $ echo $?
>>     2
>>     $
>> Hopefully other shells are more sane.
> 
> ksh and sh on an IRIX system don't like it either:
> 
> $ ;
> ksh: syntax error: `;' unexpected
> $
> 
> csh and tcsh don't mind.
> 
> Of course it works in rc itself, which is the point, really, and I wonder how often anyone pasted from one shell into another.  All the rc use I've seen did indeed use "; " as the prompt, but that was all at the University of York, starting in 1993.
> 
> -- 
> Pete
> Pete Turnbull
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 14:34:16 CEST
> To: tuhs at tuhs.org
> 
> 
>> The Bourne shell (V7) had setable PS1 (start of command) and PS2 (continuation prompts)
> 
> When PS2 came on the scene, Bob Morris noticed that it most often appeared
> because of a missing close quote. Therefore he set PS2="hit interrupt".
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Brian Zick <brian at zick.io>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 17:15:07 CEST
> To: Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net>
> Cc: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
>>> rc uses ;
>> 
>> Does it?  10th edition Unix and Plan 9 rc both have ('% ' ' ') as the   
>> default value of $prompt.  At least that's how it's described in the
>> manual. 
> 
> In NetBSD 7 the default is ';', but I don't see any reference to a default $prompt in the manual on that system. I wonder if this was a change unique to Berkeley.
> 
> B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: "John P. Linderman" <jpl.jpl at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 17:52:57 CEST
> To: Brian Zick <brian at zick.io>
> Cc: Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net>, tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> On vacation, with just an iPad keyboard, so I apologize for not doing more digging.  As I noted, when taking the blame for the Great Echo Schism, my early exposure to a hp2640 terminal that allowed “rentry” of a previous command was partly to blame. It also led me to use a PS1 ending in @, the default line-kill. When I reentered a command, the @ wiped out the prompt stuff, and only the command survived. 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 10:15 AM Brian Zick <brian at zick.io <mailto:brian at zick.io>> wrote:
> > > rc uses ;
> >        
> > Does it?  10th edition Unix and Plan 9 rc both have ('% ' ' ') as the   
> > default value of $prompt.  At least that's how it's described in the
> > manual. 
> 
> In NetBSD 7 the default is ';', but I don't see any reference to a default $prompt in the manual on that system. I wonder if this was a change unique to Berkeley.
> 
> B
> 
> 
> 
> From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 19:35:49 CEST
> To: Tony Finch <dot at dotat.at>
> Cc: Michael Kjörling <michael at kjorling.se>, tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
>> The prompt I have used since about 1997 (and I can't remember where I got
>> it from - somewhere on Usenet, probably) in its most distilled form is
>> 
>> :;
> 
> I forget where I stole this from. It lives in $home/lib/profile on my Plan9 machines:
> 
> # /n/sources/contrib/lyndon/prompt.rc
> fn : {}
> fn setprompt {
>        prompt = (': '^`{cat /dev/user}^@^`{cat /dev/sysname}^':'^`{pwd}^'; '  '        ')
> }
> fn cd { builtin cd $* && setprompt }
> setprompt
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Cág <ca6c at bitmessage.ch>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 20:09:51 CEST
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> Brian Zick wrote:
> 
>> In NetBSD 7 the default is ';', but I don't see any reference to a
>> default $prompt in the manual on that system.
> 
> It's not. '$' is default for sh and ksh, and '%' for csh. I think
> it maybe has never been ';'.
> 
> --
> caóc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: arnold at skeeve.com
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 20:51:52 CEST
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org, ca6c at bitmessage.ch
> 
> 
> C??g <ca6c at bitmessage.ch> wrote:
> 
>> Brian Zick wrote:
>> 
>>> In NetBSD 7 the default is ';', but I don't see any reference to a
>>> default $prompt in the manual on that system.
>> 
>> It's not. '$' is default for sh and ksh, and '%' for csh. I think
>> it maybe has never been ';'.
>> 
>> --
>> ca??c
>> 
> 
> Brian was referring to rc(1) in NetBSD.  I suspect it's Byron's rc
> and I think the default there is ';'.
> 
> Arnold
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Cág <ca6c at bitmessage.ch>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 21:00:22 CEST
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> arnold wrote:
> 
>> Brian was referring to rc(1) in NetBSD.  I suspect it's Byron's rc
>> and I think the default there is ';'.
> 
> rc is not shipped with NetBSD. There's Byron's rc in pkgsrc, so it could
> be that.
> 
> --
> caóc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Brian Zick <brian at zick.io>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
> Date: 7 August 2018 at 21:06:03 CEST
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> 
> 
> On Tue, Aug 7, 2018, at 8:00 PM, Cág wrote:
>> arnold wrote:
>> 
>>> Brian was referring to rc(1) in NetBSD.  I suspect it's Byron's rc
>>> and I think the default there is ';'.
>> 
>> rc is not shipped with NetBSD. There's Byron's rc in pkgsrc, so it could
>> be that.
> 
> Yes, I was referring to the rc in pkgsrc.
> 
> B
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/8a88f38d/attachment.html>

From ik at sjmulder.nl  Wed Aug  8 22:32:29 2018
From: ik at sjmulder.nl (Sijmen J. Mulder)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 14:32:29 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>

> Decades ago I made my prompt simply end with a newline, which perfectly
> and cleanly solves the problem of making it easy to copy and paste a
> whole line 

I never considered setting a copy/paste-friendly prompt but I strongly
dislike prompts taking up a line. Admittedly it's nice to have some room
for extra information but then you'll want a clear line above it too for
visual structure and that's all just too much clutter for me.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/0991875e/attachment.html>

From don at donhopkins.com  Wed Aug  8 22:59:06 2018
From: don at donhopkins.com (Don Hopkins)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 14:59:06 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>

I strongly dislike something as trivial as a prompt taking up my TIME and ATTENTION. I have room for many more lines in my terminal emulator and emacs shell window than I have time and attention or patience for carefully pointing and clicking and editing out prompts (or even talking about half-assed kludges when there’s a simple obvious solution to the problem), and much better things to do with my time and energy. 

To me, there is virtually no cost to having an extra line in my terminal or shell window, while the repeated cost of all the time and effort I have to waste working around the clutter of the prompt, integrated over the hundreds of times per day I use the command line, totally overwhelms any aesthetic considerations of disliking prompts taking up a line (or insisting on a clear line before it -- I don’t understand why you would suggest such a straw man, which is not what I was advocating). I’m not trying to paint the Mona Lisa in ASCII art, I’m simply trying to save time and effort. 

What’s the downside to the prompt taking up a full line (and as a result, the command taking up a whole line without being polluted with a prompt), other than strongly disliking things you’re not used to? Is your terminal emulator configured to only remember 24 lines? And why are you so averse to clutter, yet have no problem with the prompt cluttering up your input, which causes real non-aesthetic problems? 

I used to use a shitty HP 2640 terminal in high school that only had a half a page of screen memory (but didn’t store the spaces at the end of the lines, so you could fit 12 80-character lines on the screen, or 24 40-character lines), so if you printed out long lines, it would start scrolling before there was a full screen of text. At least the 300 baud modem gave you time to ponder over those few lines before they scrolled off the screen. In that scenario, lines of text were precious, although the HP terminals charge by characters, not lines. But I don’t think anybody in their right mind uses terminals like that any more. 

-Don


> On 8 Aug 2018, at 14:32, Sijmen J. Mulder <ik at sjmulder.nl> wrote:
> 
> > Decades ago I made my prompt simply end with a newline, which perfectly
> > and cleanly solves the problem of making it easy to copy and paste a
> > whole line
>  
> I never considered setting a copy/paste-friendly prompt but I strongly
> dislike prompts taking up a line. Admittedly it's nice to have some room
> for extra information but then you'll want a clear line above it too for
> visual structure and that's all just too much clutter for me.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/111dc150/attachment.html>

From ik at sjmulder.nl  Wed Aug  8 23:51:07 2018
From: ik at sjmulder.nl (Sijmen J. Mulder)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 15:51:07 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
Message-ID: <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>

> [...] totally overwhelms any aesthetic considerations of disliking
> prompts taking up a line (or insisting on a clear line before it -- I
> don’t understand why you would suggest such a straw man, which is not
> what I was advocating). 

I totally understand what you're saying, but I hardly ever copy and
paste between terminals so it's just not an issue to me and then
my preference for a compact prompt and little whitespace prevails.

I'll give you that the clear line thing is personal and won't
necessarily apply to others. The "you'll want to" was misplaced.

> At least the 300 baud modem gave you time to ponder over those few lines
> before they scrolled off the screen. In that scenario, lines of text
> were precious, although the HP terminals charge by characters, not
> lines. But I don’t think anybody in their right mind uses terminals like
> that any more. 

They charged per character? That's fascinating.

I'm too young to have worked with teletypes or terminals but to
experience what working over a slower connection would be like I wrote
a small pty program that throttles stdin and stdout to a given baud
rate:

https://github.com/sjmulder/trickle

It's probably nothing like the real thing but I found it interesting to
experience adapting to a slow terminal and to see things like pagers
update the screen step by step.  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/5f82e24a/attachment.html>

From cym224 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 00:28:23 2018
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 10:28:23 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Misuse of TUHS Digest [Was: Re:  TUHS Digest, Vol 33,
	Issue 7]
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzziaSH6yu72kSHBeipTmrTw+5Zfaw4XTrNPeUdUcegc6w@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe I am being a tad sensitive this morn but...

>> On 8 Aug 2018, at 04:00, tuhs-request at minnie.tuhs.org wrote:
[...]
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of TUHS digest..."

let us please honour this request.

Thank you.
N.

[Lots and lots and lots of stuff removed]


From cym224 at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 00:38:21 2018
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 10:38:21 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1808071137420.3596@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1808071137420.3596@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzxbkk5cTkHunEmiLriPoEMPKfChM=a7NhAYs-Vx9WHYsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 07/08/2018, Tony Finch <dot at dotat.at> wrote:
> Michael Kjörling <michael at kjorling.se> wrote:
>>
>> I suspect I must stand corrected on this. Turns out that at least GNU
>> bash 4.4.12(1) seems to not like a `;` at the beginning of the command
>> line.
>
> This is a consequence of the POSIX shell grammar, which doesn't allow
> empty commands.
>
> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799.2013edition/utilities/V3_chap02.html#tag_18_10

Good point (and [t]csh on Solaris does not care).

> prompt I have used since about 1997 (and I can't remember where I got
> it from - somewhere on Usenet, probably) in its most distilled form is
>
> :;

I will, no doubt, be flayed on this list but I tend to use "=> ".

N.

>
> although in practice I have a load of extra fluff for username, hostname,
> CWD, etc. usw.
>
> Tony.
> --
> f.anthony.n.finch  <dot at dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
> Fair Isle, Faeroes: South or southwest 4 or 5, occasionally 6 for a time.
> Slight or moderate, occasionally rough for a time. Showers. Moderate or
> good.
>


From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug  9 00:45:31 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 10:45:31 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Sijmen J. Mulder <ik at sjmulder.nl> wrote:

> I'm too young to have worked with teletypes or terminals but to
>
> experience what working over a slower connection would be like I wrote
>
> a small pty program that throttles stdin and stdout to a given baud
>
> rate
>
Sadly you are missing three important features in your emulation.  First
the noise and the second associated motion of the carriage as the printer
did its thing.  (The movement of the 'ball' (cylinder on a TTY) was magical
and made it quite set of sounds you will never forget - often duplicated in
the movies).   But the hardest thing to simulate is the distinct smell of
light machine oil that all terminal rooms had.
Clem
ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/9879f74a/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug  9 00:51:50 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 10:51:50 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <CAJfiPzxbkk5cTkHunEmiLriPoEMPKfChM=a7NhAYs-Vx9WHYsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1808071137420.3596@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
 <CAJfiPzxbkk5cTkHunEmiLriPoEMPKfChM=a7NhAYs-Vx9WHYsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NyN0jvN1BEz4+snnKKYA+CQTDxny9e_147gT4aDbDeAA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Nemo <cym224 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I will, no doubt, be flayed on this list but I tend to use "=> ".

Remember: "Hacking is what is done in the privacy of your own office;
between you and your terminal."
ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/e4fefeb2/attachment.html>

From stewart at serissa.com  Thu Aug  9 00:56:23 2018
From: stewart at serissa.com (Lawrence Stewart)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 10:56:23 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <572221F5-329B-4E2A-86B4-F058A3230463@serissa.com>

Oh my yes.  The Model 33’s and the 2741s…  The timer setting off the ball rotate to remind you the computer is tapping its foot...

But all is not lost for those from the ‘80s.  There is 

http://www.secretgeometry.com/apps/cathode/ <http://www.secretgeometry.com/apps/cathode/>

a terminal emulator prepared to mimic screen curvature, flicker, visible scan lines, etc.

-Larry

> On 2018, Aug 8, at 10:45 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Sijmen J. Mulder <ik at sjmulder.nl <mailto:ik at sjmulder.nl>> wrote:
> I'm too young to have worked with teletypes or terminals but to
> 
> 
> experience what working over a slower connection would be like I wrote
> 
> a small pty program that throttles stdin and stdout to a given baud
> 
> rate
> 
> Sadly you are missing three important features in your emulation.  First the noise and the second associated motion of the carriage as the printer did its thing.  (The movement of the 'ball' (cylinder on a TTY) was magical and made it quite set of sounds you will never forget - often duplicated in the movies).   But the hardest thing to simulate is the distinct smell of light machine oil that all terminal rooms had. 
> Clem 
> ᐧ

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/253f1b2f/attachment.html>

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Aug  9 01:09:15 2018
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 11:09:15 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil, was Re:  TUHS Digest,
 Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2018-08-08 10:45 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Sijmen J. Mulder <ik at sjmulder.nl
> <mailto:ik at sjmulder.nl>> wrote:
> 
>     I'm too young to have worked with teletypes or terminals but to
> 
>     __
> 
>     experience what working over a slower connection would be like I
>     wrote____
> 
>     a small pty program that throttles stdin and stdout to a given baud____
> 
>     rate
> 
> Sadly you are missing three important features in your emulation.  First
> the noise and the second associated motion of the carriage as the
> printer did its thing.  (The movement of the 'ball' (cylinder on a TTY)
> was magical and made it quite set of sounds you will never forget -
> often duplicated in the movies).   But the hardest thing to simulate is
> the distinct smell of light machine oil that all terminal rooms had. 

Isn't this easy? Just use a spritzer of it around your PC.

--T

> Clem 
> ᐧ



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Aug  9 01:20:18 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  8 Aug 2018 11:20:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
Message-ID: <20180808152018.EDBBA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Nemo

    > I will, no doubt, be flayed on this list but I tend to use "=>".

Hey, if it works for you, go for it.

After the Nth time I got confused as to exactly which machine I was
typing to, I hacked the shell on my V6 Unix to read its prompt from
".profile". (Very clean, only one added line of code in the existing
code.)

	Noel


From ckeck at texoma.net  Thu Aug  9 03:38:00 2018
From: ckeck at texoma.net (Cornelius Keck)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 12:38:00 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>

Then promptly run into trouble with your SO and/or XO because they don't 
like the fragrance?


Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2018-08-08 10:45 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Sijmen J. Mulder <ik at sjmulder.nl
>> <mailto:ik at sjmulder.nl>> wrote:
>>
>>      I'm too young to have worked with teletypes or terminals but to
>>
>>      __
>>
>>      experience what working over a slower connection would be like I
>>      wrote____
>>
>>      a small pty program that throttles stdin and stdout to a given baud____
>>
>>      rate
>>
>> Sadly you are missing three important features in your emulation.  First
>> the noise and the second associated motion of the carriage as the
>> printer did its thing.  (The movement of the 'ball' (cylinder on a TTY)
>> was magical and made it quite set of sounds you will never forget -
>> often duplicated in the movies).   But the hardest thing to simulate is
>> the distinct smell of light machine oil that all terminal rooms had.
>
> Isn't this easy? Just use a spritzer of it around your PC.
>
> --T
>
>> Clem
>> ᐧ
>


From velocityboy at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 05:14:19 2018
From: velocityboy at gmail.com (Jim Geist)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 12:14:19 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
Message-ID: <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a functional LA120 in my house and can attest to the machine smell
whenever I run it.

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 11:50 AM Cornelius Keck <ckeck at texoma.net> wrote:

> Then promptly run into trouble with your SO and/or XO because they don't
> like the fragrance?
>
>
> Toby Thain wrote:
> > On 2018-08-08 10:45 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Sijmen J. Mulder <ik at sjmulder.nl
> >> <mailto:ik at sjmulder.nl>> wrote:
> >>
> >>      I'm too young to have worked with teletypes or terminals but to
> >>
> >>      __
> >>
> >>      experience what working over a slower connection would be like I
> >>      wrote____
> >>
> >>      a small pty program that throttles stdin and stdout to a given
> baud____
> >>
> >>      rate
> >>
> >> Sadly you are missing three important features in your emulation.  First
> >> the noise and the second associated motion of the carriage as the
> >> printer did its thing.  (The movement of the 'ball' (cylinder on a TTY)
> >> was magical and made it quite set of sounds you will never forget -
> >> often duplicated in the movies).   But the hardest thing to simulate is
> >> the distinct smell of light machine oil that all terminal rooms had.
> >
> > Isn't this easy? Just use a spritzer of it around your PC.
> >
> > --T
> >
> >> Clem
> >> ᐧ
> >
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/62bc2eef/attachment.html>

From dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org  Thu Aug  9 05:55:26 2018
From: dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org (Derek Fawcus)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 20:55:26 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
References: <1533588813.1868321.1465431536.01CE36BC@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <20180807065453.jjnsx3cunjug5q3e@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <20180807080256.lgqaevcah2a7sn2t@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
Message-ID: <20180808195526.GA26375@accordion.employees.org>

On Tue, Aug 07, 2018 at 08:02:56AM +0000, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> I suspect I must stand corrected on this. Turns out that at least GNU
> bash 4.4.12(1) seems to not like a `;` at the beginning of the command
> line.

I can't recall where I got this from, but I tend to use the following
on bourne style shells; bash (and others) seem happy with it for copy/paste:

h=copper$; tty
/dev/pts/0
h=copper$; h=copper$; tty
/dev/pts/0

h=copper#; tty
/dev/pts/0
h=copper#; h=copper#; tty
/dev/pts/0

'copper' being the hostname, $/# as per usual.

DF


From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Aug  8 18:50:51 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 09:50:51 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Sort of off-topic: usefulness of TUHS list and archive?
In-Reply-To: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpDXuEFKGNSagWA4bh_ncD_9sjEoZgGsk4iq8Kofqq5ng@mail.gmail.com>

I used your site to construct historical unix sizes in s talk I have at
BSDcan. I've also used it to check historical unix behaviour when fixing
bugs in FreeBSD for Netflix...

Warner

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 9:38 AM Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:

> All, sorry that this is tangential to TUHS. I work at TAFE Queensland,
> which
> is a bit like a polytechnic or a U.S college. As a teacher, I have to
> demonstrate industry skills. I've listed my administration of the TUHS
> server
> over 25+ years. However, TAFE wants this to be verified by third parties:
>
>         "Where possible the teacher could show that industry endorses his
>         website and any if there are any testimonials/comments/reviews
>         available on the site, these could also be provided."
>
> So, if you could pop a sentence or two in reply to this e-mail about
> the usefulness of the TUHS archive and the mailing list, that would be
> really helpful!
>
> Cheers & thanks in advance, Warren
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/f1f2a2fd/attachment.html>

From wobblygong at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 20:38:54 2018
From: wobblygong at gmail.com (Wesley Parish)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 22:38:54 +1200
Subject: [TUHS] Sort of off-topic: usefulness of TUHS list and archive?
In-Reply-To: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CACNPpeZnBk7Z44GQFWMG_U6C8Rk31UEYf3HMrV6iv2kF2sOHXw@mail.gmail.com>

You might point them in this direction:

Dennis Ritchie's Interview for Samizdat
Tuesday, June 01 2004 @ 09:25 PM EDT
http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20040601212559558

PJ quotes an email from Dennis Ritchie that mentions tuhs.org in
relation to the SCO series of allegations and accusations about the
relationship of Linux to Unix.

As an archivist of early Unix developments, you played a part in
keeping the record open and visible, which played no small part in
preventing a sizeable part of the IT industry from being held to
ransom. No small achievement.

Wesley Parish

On 8/8/18, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> All, sorry that this is tangential to TUHS. I work at TAFE Queensland,
> which
> is a bit like a polytechnic or a U.S college. As a teacher, I have to
> demonstrate industry skills. I've listed my administration of the TUHS
> server
> over 25+ years. However, TAFE wants this to be verified by third parties:
>
> 	"Where possible the teacher could show that industry endorses his
> 	website and any if there are any testimonials/comments/reviews
> 	available on the site, these could also be provided."
>
> So, if you could pop a sentence or two in reply to this e-mail about
> the usefulness of the TUHS archive and the mailing list, that would be
> really helpful!
>
> Cheers & thanks in advance, Warren
>


From gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 23:24:05 2018
From: gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com (Gregg Levine)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 09:24:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Sort of off-topic: usefulness of TUHS list and archive?
In-Reply-To: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CAC5iaNHHSqVpdX7WPCH1tiJ67MzfXB+4BZd1L-v1nhnvLb3U4w@mail.gmail.com>

Hello!
For myself I'd say the list (and the archives) are very useful. The
list has answered many questions about a period in time I thought I
knew reasonably well. It backstopped a reason why I wanted to get into
the retro computing hobby as regards the early ideas on UNIX and its
relatives, BSD and all of the rest.

Oh and I also enjoy reading the discussions that are relevant to the
list, but not of course to my needs.

Sometimes I feel I missed something I'll track back through my
collection, and follow up on it via the list archives.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 4:37 AM, Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
> All, sorry that this is tangential to TUHS. I work at TAFE Queensland, which
> is a bit like a polytechnic or a U.S college. As a teacher, I have to
> demonstrate industry skills. I've listed my administration of the TUHS server
> over 25+ years. However, TAFE wants this to be verified by third parties:
>
>         "Where possible the teacher could show that industry endorses his
>         website and any if there are any testimonials/comments/reviews
>         available on the site, these could also be provided."
>
> So, if you could pop a sentence or two in reply to this e-mail about
> the usefulness of the TUHS archive and the mailing list, that would be
> really helpful!
>
> Cheers & thanks in advance, Warren


From gilles at gravier.org  Thu Aug  9 02:01:23 2018
From: gilles at gravier.org (Gilles Gravier)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 18:01:23 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <20180808152018.EDBBA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180808152018.EDBBA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABq8+zf_DLcV5GLmj8DXxr31J8qjPpwutRw859r7LZEjgWPThA@mail.gmail.com>

Caveat emptor: I haven't read all the messages on this thread. :)

But... I remember the VMS prompt being "$"... maybe some ancestry since VMS
dates back to 1970?

Gilles

2018-08-08 17:20 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>:

>     > From: Nemo
>
>     > I will, no doubt, be flayed on this list but I tend to use "=>".
>
> Hey, if it works for you, go for it.
>
> After the Nth time I got confused as to exactly which machine I was
> typing to, I hacked the shell on my V6 Unix to read its prompt from
> ".profile". (Very clean, only one added line of code in the existing
> code.)
>
>         Noel
>



-- 
*Gilles Gravier*  - Gilles at Gravier.org
GSM : +33618347147 and +41794728437
Skype : ggravier | PGP Key : 0x8DE6D026
<http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x8DE6D026&op=index>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/1f08bafb/attachment.html>

From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu Aug  9 06:14:54 2018
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 06:14:54 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Sort of off-topic: usefulness of TUHS list and archive?
In-Reply-To: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20180808201454.GA23457@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Wed, Aug 08, 2018 at 06:37:06PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> So, if you could pop a sentence or two in reply to this e-mail about
> the usefulness of the TUHS archive and the mailing list, that would be
> really helpful!
> 
> Cheers & thanks in advance, Warren

Many thanks to the 20 or so people who wrote a paragraph or two outlining
how useful they have found the TUHS list and archive, and for throwing a
bit of approbation my way as well :-) That should be enough, I've copied them
into a document I can pass onto my managers.

Thanks again, Warren


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Thu Aug  9 06:29:26 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 16:29:26 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <CABq8+zf_DLcV5GLmj8DXxr31J8qjPpwutRw859r7LZEjgWPThA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180808152018.EDBBA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABq8+zf_DLcV5GLmj8DXxr31J8qjPpwutRw859r7LZEjgWPThA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <098701d42f56$80c6c470$82544d50$@ronnatalie.com>

*	But... I remember the VMS prompt being "$"... maybe some ancestry since VMS dates back to 1970?

 

VMS development started in 1975.   It didn’t see the light of day until the VAX hardware was released in 1977.

 


RSX used > (sometimes MCR>).

TOPS-10 used a period (.) at the monitor level and asterisk at the user level.

RT-11 also used the period.

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/66176fda/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug  9 06:30:19 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 16:30:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <CABq8+zf_DLcV5GLmj8DXxr31J8qjPpwutRw859r7LZEjgWPThA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180808152018.EDBBA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABq8+zf_DLcV5GLmj8DXxr31J8qjPpwutRw859r7LZEjgWPThA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PjbuRvUyKJo6cKxpNMut8yj+YBYOP_QoZzskMaQyaB9A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Gilles Gravier <gilles at gravier.org> wrote:

> Caveat emptor: I haven't read all the messages on this thread. :)
>
> But... I remember the VMS prompt being "$"... maybe some ancestry since
> VMS dates back to 1970
>
Be careful .. VMS 1.0 was released in the late 1970s, we had Vax serial #1
at CMU - I want to say 1976 or 77.  Dave's Command Language (DCL - renamed
DEC Command Language by DEC marketing) was originally part of an earlier
RSX and yes used $ as the prompt.

But numerous systems used $ and many of the other punctuation chars as a
prompt.

We'll have to ask srb, but I'm fair confident in stating VMS had no bearing
on his choice of a command prompt (I'm fairly sure VMS was not release by
the time he came to the Labs).   I would have expected if it was taking it
from another system (which is possible) it would have been on the British
ones in use at Cambridge before he came to BTL.
ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/7e194a9b/attachment.html>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Aug  9 06:44:53 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 14:44:53 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>

Especially if you use the WD40 trick for the ink ribbon. :)

Warner

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 1:14 PM Jim Geist <velocityboy at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a functional LA120 in my house and can attest to the machine smell
> whenever I run it.
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 11:50 AM Cornelius Keck <ckeck at texoma.net> wrote:
>
>> Then promptly run into trouble with your SO and/or XO because they don't
>> like the fragrance?
>>
>>
>> Toby Thain wrote:
>> > On 2018-08-08 10:45 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 9:51 AM, Sijmen J. Mulder <ik at sjmulder.nl
>> >> <mailto:ik at sjmulder.nl>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>      I'm too young to have worked with teletypes or terminals but to
>> >>
>> >>      __
>> >>
>> >>      experience what working over a slower connection would be like I
>> >>      wrote____
>> >>
>> >>      a small pty program that throttles stdin and stdout to a given
>> baud____
>> >>
>> >>      rate
>> >>
>> >> Sadly you are missing three important features in your emulation.
>> First
>> >> the noise and the second associated motion of the carriage as the
>> >> printer did its thing.  (The movement of the 'ball' (cylinder on a TTY)
>> >> was magical and made it quite set of sounds you will never forget -
>> >> often duplicated in the movies).   But the hardest thing to simulate is
>> >> the distinct smell of light machine oil that all terminal rooms had.
>> >
>> > Isn't this easy? Just use a spritzer of it around your PC.
>> >
>> > --T
>> >
>> >> Clem
>> >> ᐧ
>> >
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/080858aa/attachment.html>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Aug  9 06:51:15 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 14:51:15 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PjbuRvUyKJo6cKxpNMut8yj+YBYOP_QoZzskMaQyaB9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180808152018.EDBBA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CABq8+zf_DLcV5GLmj8DXxr31J8qjPpwutRw859r7LZEjgWPThA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PjbuRvUyKJo6cKxpNMut8yj+YBYOP_QoZzskMaQyaB9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoN_Vp6RCT97aTn-uv1H+XiOksVqxV9RnHk-2eEho-rjA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 2:31 PM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Gilles Gravier <gilles at gravier.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Caveat emptor: I haven't read all the messages on this thread. :)
>>
>> But... I remember the VMS prompt being "$"... maybe some ancestry since
>> VMS dates back to 1970
>>
> Be careful .. VMS 1.0 was released in the late 1970s, we had Vax serial #1
> at CMU - I want to say 1976 or 77.  Dave's Command Language (DCL - renamed
> DEC Command Language by DEC marketing) was originally part of an earlier
> RSX and yes used $ as the prompt.
>
> But numerous systems used $ and many of the other punctuation chars as a
> prompt.
>
> We'll have to ask srb, but I'm fair confident in stating VMS had no
> bearing on his choice of a command prompt (I'm fairly sure VMS was not
> release by the time he came to the Labs).   I would have expected if it was
> taking it from another system (which is possible) it would have been on the
> British ones in use at Cambridge before he came to BTL.
>

TOPS-20 used @. RSTS/E used Ready.

Warner

> ᐧ
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/e8f7c18b/attachment.html>

From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Aug  9 11:09:02 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 11:09:02 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Marvin Minsky!
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808091106000.19950@aneurin.horsfall.org>

We gained Marvin Minsky on this day in 1927; he was an AI researcher, 
computer scientist, invented neural networks etc, and is now thought to be 
cryogenically preserved.

-- Dave


From wlc at jctaylor.com  Thu Aug  9 12:50:54 2018
From: wlc at jctaylor.com (William Corcoran)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 02:50:54 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Origins of shell prompt suffixes % $ > #
In-Reply-To: <CABq8+zf_DLcV5GLmj8DXxr31J8qjPpwutRw859r7LZEjgWPThA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180808152018.EDBBA18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>,
 <CABq8+zf_DLcV5GLmj8DXxr31J8qjPpwutRw859r7LZEjgWPThA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A943C745-6A81-4705-9B28-91BF78C0FEF5@jctaylor.com>

I too have not seen all of the messages on this thread.

I always thought the $ was used for the shell prompt as a persistent reminder that time on the system costs money: As process accounting will assist in your monthly billing.

Bill Corcoran

On Aug 8, 2018, at 4:20 PM, Gilles Gravier <gilles at gravier.org<mailto:gilles at gravier.org>> wrote:

Caveat emptor: I haven't read all the messages on this thread. :)

But... I remember the VMS prompt being "$"... maybe some ancestry since VMS dates back to 1970?

Gilles

2018-08-08 17:20 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu<mailto:jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>>:
    > From: Nemo

    > I will, no doubt, be flayed on this list but I tend to use "=>".

Hey, if it works for you, go for it.

After the Nth time I got confused as to exactly which machine I was
typing to, I hacked the shell on my V6 Unix to read its prompt from
".profile". (Very clean, only one added line of code in the existing
code.)

        Noel



--
Gilles Gravier  - Gilles at Gravier.org<mailto:Gilles at Gravier.org>
GSM : +33618347147 and +41794728437
Skype : ggravier | PGP Key : 0x8DE6D026<http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x8DE6D026&op=index>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180809/c15936d6/attachment.html>

From arnold at skeeve.com  Thu Aug  9 15:14:28 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2018 23:14:28 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201808090514.w795ESAh018689@freefriends.org>

Which was ...?

Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:

> Especially if you use the WD40 trick for the ink ribbon. :)
>
> Warner
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 1:14 PM Jim Geist <velocityboy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have a functional LA120 in my house and can attest to the machine smell
> > whenever I run it.


From velocityboy at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 15:55:56 2018
From: velocityboy at gmail.com (Jim Geist)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2018 22:55:56 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <201808090514.w795ESAh018689@freefriends.org>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808090514.w795ESAh018689@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CAJohCKJON2LFM0nx+ts0MwHd9LtmJvNzw9hP-K9t4+GcpNoKiA@mail.gmail.com>

You can supposedly revive dried out ribbons by soaking them in WD40. I’ve
heard of it but never tried it.

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 10:14 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

> Which was ...?
>
> Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> > Especially if you use the WD40 trick for the ink ribbon. :)
> >
> > Warner
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 1:14 PM Jim Geist <velocityboy at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I have a functional LA120 in my house and can attest to the machine
> smell
> > > whenever I run it.
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180808/60b2aecf/attachment.html>

From ggm at algebras.org  Thu Aug  9 16:02:30 2018
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 16:02:30 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAJohCKJON2LFM0nx+ts0MwHd9LtmJvNzw9hP-K9t4+GcpNoKiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808090514.w795ESAh018689@freefriends.org>
 <CAJohCKJON2LFM0nx+ts0MwHd9LtmJvNzw9hP-K9t4+GcpNoKiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn1RUGxucUuNJqhbXUCq_st+=GKP=ejkgm7CGxWoGm-LoA@mail.gmail.com>

I used to quick start my mower by a spray into the carb. This tells me
that WD40 apart from being an intoxicatingly manly perfume, is
flammable.

I suggest that the static ball of fluff which is any print device with
paper crud, chad, and other ephemeral bits of detritus (including
probably half a tonne of skin flakes) is not the best place to spray
WD40.

Do it outside.

real programmers don't let other programmers smoke around printing devices...

-G

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Jim Geist <velocityboy at gmail.com> wrote:
> You can supposedly revive dried out ribbons by soaking them in WD40. I’ve
> heard of it but never tried it.
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 10:14 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>>
>> Which was ...?
>>
>> Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Especially if you use the WD40 trick for the ink ribbon. :)
>> >
>> > Warner
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 1:14 PM Jim Geist <velocityboy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I have a functional LA120 in my house and can attest to the machine
>> > > smell
>> > > whenever I run it.


From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Aug  9 17:20:36 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 17:20:36 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAJohCKJON2LFM0nx+ts0MwHd9LtmJvNzw9hP-K9t4+GcpNoKiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808090514.w795ESAh018689@freefriends.org>
 <CAJohCKJON2LFM0nx+ts0MwHd9LtmJvNzw9hP-K9t4+GcpNoKiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808091717130.19950@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 8 Aug 2018, Jim Geist wrote:

> You can supposedly revive dried out ribbons by soaking them in WD40. 
> I’ve heard of it but never tried it.

It's a common trick in the Teletype[tm] world (usually RTTY enthusiasts 
i.e. Amateur radio teletype).

-- Dave (VK2KFU)

From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Thu Aug  9 22:19:18 2018
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2018 08:19:18 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Happy, birthday, Marvin Minsky
Message-ID: <201808091219.w79CJIDD038630@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> ... Minsky ... invented neural networks

A little baldy put. Minsky did study them and famously proved
severe limitations on the learning capability of the simple
perceptron model. Mathematical models of neural networks
originaated with McCulloch and Pitts; perceptrons with
Rosenblat.

doug


From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Aug  9 22:36:25 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 06:36:25 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAJohCKJON2LFM0nx+ts0MwHd9LtmJvNzw9hP-K9t4+GcpNoKiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808090514.w795ESAh018689@freefriends.org>
 <CAJohCKJON2LFM0nx+ts0MwHd9LtmJvNzw9hP-K9t4+GcpNoKiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpmoGXh6rir8xCugCS-y5e6h2JZK7660mpsMJ5gd=A-LQ@mail.gmail.com>

It works. For the ribbon type printers, it gets the ink moving enough to
get a second or third use from the cart. Print quality was dicey, but for
listings to do debugging on a dot matrix printer, quality wasn't the name
of the game. Just don't use too much...

Warner

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 11:56 PM Jim Geist <velocityboy at gmail.com> wrote:

> You can supposedly revive dried out ribbons by soaking them in WD40. I’ve
> heard of it but never tried it.
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 10:14 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>
>> Which was ...?
>>
>> Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Especially if you use the WD40 trick for the ink ribbon. :)
>> >
>> > Warner
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 1:14 PM Jim Geist <velocityboy at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > I have a functional LA120 in my house and can attest to the machine
>> smell
>> > > whenever I run it.
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180809/7ff95eb6/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug  9 23:31:39 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 09:31:39 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Nev3Nam9S2774yerYtFUBB-B=y2TcRYmAXyUrXOB96uA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 4:44 PM, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:

> Especially if you use the WD40 trick for the ink ribbon. :
>
Hmmrrph.... Youngsters...    WD40 is silcon based.   Real "3 in One" oil
(came in a small can) is light machine oil but you can still get it:
https://www.3inone.com/handyu/
It's what Teletype used (and spec'ed in the maintence manual).  Different
odor.


ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180809/801ce2ec/attachment.html>

From dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org  Fri Aug 10 00:15:09 2018
From: dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org (Derek Fawcus)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 15:15:09 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Nev3Nam9S2774yerYtFUBB-B=y2TcRYmAXyUrXOB96uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nev3Nam9S2774yerYtFUBB-B=y2TcRYmAXyUrXOB96uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180809141509.GA91112@accordion.employees.org>

On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 09:31:39AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> Hmmrrph.... Youngsters...    WD40 is silcon based.

I didn't know that; never I checked the can; but yeah a distinctive smell...

> Real "3 in One" oil
> (came in a small can) is light machine oil but you can still get it:

Yup, useful on bike chains and oilstones (as in sharpening chisels and planes).

DF


From ewayte at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 00:26:32 2018
From: ewayte at gmail.com (Eric Wayte)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 10:26:32 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <20180809141509.GA91112@accordion.employees.org>
References: <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nev3Nam9S2774yerYtFUBB-B=y2TcRYmAXyUrXOB96uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180809141509.GA91112@accordion.employees.org>
Message-ID: <CAJc6K3XvjOGS94=29B7p+5mCftsJA35RZP0y_RgvNSYi=JZ5+g@mail.gmail.com>

In an episode of The Little Rascals / Our Gang series, the teacher asked a
little girl what's 2 and 1, and she replied "shoe polish".  The teacher
then asked her, what's 3 and 1, to which she replied "oil".

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 10:15 AM Derek Fawcus <
dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 09:31:39AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> > Hmmrrph.... Youngsters...    WD40 is silcon based.
>
> I didn't know that; never I checked the can; but yeah a distinctive
> smell...
>
> > Real "3 in One" oil
> > (came in a small can) is light machine oil but you can still get it:
>
> Yup, useful on bike chains and oilstones (as in sharpening chisels and
> planes).
>
> DF
>


-- 
Eric Wayte
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180809/eb1e87a6/attachment.html>

From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Fri Aug 10 01:14:11 2018
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2018 17:14:11 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Sort of off-topic: usefulness of TUHS list and archive?
In-Reply-To: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20180809151411.uvoKZ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Warren Toomey wrote in <20180808083706.GA20345 at minnie.tuhs.org>:
 |All, sorry that this is tangential to TUHS. I work at TAFE Queensland, \
 |which
 |is a bit like a polytechnic or a U.S college. As a teacher, I have to
 |demonstrate industry skills. I've listed my administration of the TUHS \
 |server
 |over 25+ years. However, TAFE wants this to be verified by third parties:
 |
 | "Where possible the teacher could show that industry endorses his
 | website and any if there are any testimonials/comments/reviews
 | available on the site, these could also be provided."
 |
 |So, if you could pop a sentence or two in reply to this e-mail about
 |the usefulness of the TUHS archive and the mailing list, that would be
 |really helpful!

To me TUHS is an invaluable source of data and knowledge context,
especially with utree.pl i have worked many hours.
I know it also as been used as a knowledge base to fill in the
gaps in order to create correct ".Sh HISTORY" manual entries in
BSD land.

 |Cheers & thanks in advance, Warren

Thank you in return very much indeed.

 --End of <20180808083706.GA20345 at minnie.tuhs.org>

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)


From mparson at bl.org  Thu Aug  9 23:45:55 2018
From: mparson at bl.org (Michael Parson)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2018 08:45:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfpmoGXh6rir8xCugCS-y5e6h2JZK7660mpsMJ5gd=A-LQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.2.1533693601.12251.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808090514.w795ESAh018689@freefriends.org>
 <CAJohCKJON2LFM0nx+ts0MwHd9LtmJvNzw9hP-K9t4+GcpNoKiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfpmoGXh6rir8xCugCS-y5e6h2JZK7660mpsMJ5gd=A-LQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.20.1808090841340.2796@neener.bl.org>

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018, 11:56 PM Jim Geist <velocityboy at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 10:14 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Which was ...?
>
>> You can supposedly revive dried out ribbons by soaking them in WD40. I’ve
>> heard of it but never tried it.
>
> It works. For the ribbon type printers, it gets the ink moving enough to
> get a second or third use from the cart. Print quality was dicey, but for
> listings to do debugging on a dot matrix printer, quality wasn't the name
> of the game. Just don't use too much...

I don't have much experience with hardcopy terminals, but I did use the
WD-40 trick on dot-matrix printers in the 80s (Commodore MPS 803 was my
first printer).

Only time I used a hard-copy term was at my first job at a university
computer lab, our line printer went down, so, I dragged an LA120 out of
storage and hooked it up to serve as the printer until we could get the
line printer serviced.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Aug 10 21:37:32 2018
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 12:37:32 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <CAJc6K3XvjOGS94=29B7p+5mCftsJA35RZP0y_RgvNSYi=JZ5+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nev3Nam9S2774yerYtFUBB-B=y2TcRYmAXyUrXOB96uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180809141509.GA91112@accordion.employees.org>
 <CAJc6K3XvjOGS94=29B7p+5mCftsJA35RZP0y_RgvNSYi=JZ5+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <11da6a84-0ac3-cfe9-30c5-0d37ebc5f016@dunnington.plus.com>

On 09/08/2018 15:26, Eric Wayte wrote:
> In an episode of The Little Rascals / Our Gang series, the teacher asked 
> a little girl what's 2 and 1, and she replied "shoe polish".  The 
> teacher then asked her, what's 3 and 1, to which she replied "oil".

I like that!

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Aug 10 21:37:45 2018
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 12:37:45 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <20180809141509.GA91112@accordion.employees.org>
References: <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nev3Nam9S2774yerYtFUBB-B=y2TcRYmAXyUrXOB96uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180809141509.GA91112@accordion.employees.org>
Message-ID: <d0fd5b21-65d3-e9ea-6b3e-c55897e10d28@dunnington.plus.com>

On 09/08/2018 15:15, Derek Fawcus wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 09, 2018 at 09:31:39AM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
>> Hmmrrph.... Youngsters...    WD40 is silcon based.
> 
> I didn't know that; never I checked the can; but yeah a distinctive smell...

Ordinary WD40 is NOT silicone based (obNitPick: note the 'e': not 
silicon, which is a hard crystalline substance).  There is a 
"specialist" silicone-based version but ordinary WD40 is hydrocarbon 
based, being a mixture of light paraffin (naptha to transpondians, ie 
the stuff that's used as a solvent or fuel) and a paraffin wax, as 
stated in the manufacturer's official MSDS document.

The characteristic smell is largely from an aromatic hydrocarbon additive.

>> Real "3 in One" oil
>> (came in a small can) is light machine oil but you can still get it:
> 
> Yup, useful on bike chains and oilstones (as in sharpening chisels and planes).

And not much else, because like a lot of simple hydrocarbon oils 
developed half a century or more ago, it oxidises to a gummy substance.

The Teletype manual definitely doesn't suggest 3-in-One oil and some 
sources suggest it's too thick anyway.  The manual in front of me 
specifies two Western Electric part numbers for oil and grease.  It's 
been discussed more than once on the Greenkeys list, and there's a 
useful page listing modern equivalents at Doug Jones' page:
https://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/pdp8/UI-8/ks7470oil.shtml

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull


From tih at hamartun.priv.no  Sat Aug 11 02:24:19 2018
From: tih at hamartun.priv.no (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 18:24:19 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
	was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <d0fd5b21-65d3-e9ea-6b3e-c55897e10d28@dunnington.plus.com> (Pete
 Turnbull's message of "Fri, 10 Aug 2018 12:37:45 +0100")
References: <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nev3Nam9S2774yerYtFUBB-B=y2TcRYmAXyUrXOB96uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180809141509.GA91112@accordion.employees.org>
 <d0fd5b21-65d3-e9ea-6b3e-c55897e10d28@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <m2h8k21970.fsf@thuvia.hamartun.priv.no>

Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> writes:

> The Teletype manual definitely doesn't suggest 3-in-One oil and some
> sources suggest it's too thick anyway.  The manual in front of me
> specifies two Western Electric part numbers for oil and grease.

A couple of decades ago, I got hold of a Teletype that sort of worked,
but was extremely unreliable.  After studying that manual, and deciding
that the proper lubrication plan was too complex for my tastes, I just
turned the thing on with the top off, and emptied a spray can of CRC
5-56 into the mechanism while exercising the keyboard.  It proceeded to
work well for my off-and-on use for several years after that.

-tih
-- 
Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance
of Lisp.  Lisp is the most important idea in computer science.  --Alan Kay
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 487 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180810/50bf1976/attachment.sig>

From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sat Aug 11 02:58:18 2018
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 17:58:18 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] the distinct smell of light machine oil,
 was Re: TUHS Digest, Vol 33, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <m2h8k21970.fsf@thuvia.hamartun.priv.no>
References: <DBB67EE8-D7D4-4622-BF04-6F037C7B2859@gmail.com>
 <20180808123229.86FD5E465F@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <6EBCF9E5-4600-42D6-9F83-3E2966140540@donhopkins.com>
 <20180808135106.D7441E4636@mailuser.nyi.internal>
 <CAC20D2Ox+AbhNvhJoKzoFiupna7Utq=CJHBXadE=tgQ2k76e2g@mail.gmail.com>
 <c2114f16-78d3-3b11-cd0f-9bedc48ec7f9@telegraphics.com.au>
 <5B6B2A78.7070303@texoma.net>
 <CAJohCKK05su6U37B9ANc8gHs7Pnfe+5xhAFNroD2SA88dCcSHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfphBORbr+HvR5ZvBK9aFvgYx0BT0mRbTSSczRzEzdZ0gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Nev3Nam9S2774yerYtFUBB-B=y2TcRYmAXyUrXOB96uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180809141509.GA91112@accordion.employees.org>
 <d0fd5b21-65d3-e9ea-6b3e-c55897e10d28@dunnington.plus.com>
 <m2h8k21970.fsf@thuvia.hamartun.priv.no>
Message-ID: <85b526f8-7327-6210-05fb-29bdfbe7d726@dunnington.plus.com>

On 10/08/2018 17:24, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo wrote:
> Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> writes:
> 
>> The Teletype manual definitely doesn't suggest 3-in-One oil
> 
> A couple of decades ago, I got hold of a Teletype that sort of worked,
> but was extremely unreliable.  After studying that manual, and deciding
> that the proper lubrication plan was too complex for my tastes, I just
> turned the thing on with the top off, and emptied a spray can of CRC
> 5-56 into the mechanism while exercising the keyboard.  It proceeded to
> work well for my off-and-on use for several years after that.

TBH, I suspect that for occasional use, you don't need to use the 
perfect lubricants, just not something that turns into glue during 
periods of disuse.  I wouldn't spray WD40 into anything, though, except 
maybe a dried out ribbon which was what Warner described.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull


From ca6c at bitmessage.ch  Sat Aug 11 06:34:48 2018
From: ca6c at bitmessage.ch (=?utf-8?B?Q8OhZw==?=)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2018 15:34:48 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Sort of off-topic: usefulness of TUHS list and archive?
In-Reply-To: <20180809151411.uvoKZ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <20180808083706.GA20345@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20180809151411.uvoKZ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <20180810203448.BNAXC%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>

Steffen Nurpmeso wrote:

> To me TUHS is an invaluable source of data and knowledge context,
> especially with utree.pl i have worked many hours.
> I know it also as been used as a knowledge base to fill in the
> gaps in order to create correct ".Sh HISTORY" manual entries in
> BSD land.

I know right, also the amount of books, biographies and advice that is
mentioned here makes it not only interesting, but practically applicable
as well.

--
caóc



From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Mon Aug 13 11:32:31 2018
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2018 21:32:31 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] [groff] Creating a numbered list without macros
Message-ID: <201808130132.w7D1WVJ3123817@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> Why create ms when you have mm?

Well, the real reason is that ms was the very first macro package.
It has held up spectactularly well, evolving much less than the
underlying [ntg]roff.

Doug


From arnold at skeeve.com  Mon Aug 13 16:34:06 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 00:34:06 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] [groff] Creating a numbered list without macros
In-Reply-To: <201808130132.w7D1WVJ3123817@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201808130132.w7D1WVJ3123817@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <201808130634.w7D6Y66T030631@freefriends.org>

Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> > Why create ms when you have mm?
>
> Well, the real reason is that ms was the very first macro package.
> It has held up spectactularly well, evolving much less than the
> underlying [ntg]roff.
>
> Doug

Or say, rather, the first *general purpose* macro package. The man
macros predate it. :-)

Arnold


From arnold at skeeve.com  Tue Aug 14 05:06:37 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Arnold Robbins)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 22:06:37 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] Can anyone point me to source for a lex that works on Linux?
Message-ID: <201808131906.w7DJ6bAw005597@skeeve.com>

Hi.

Can anyone point me to source for Unix lex that can be compiled and
works on Linux?  I've tried in the past to make V7 lex work and failed.

Thanks,

Arnold


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Tue Aug 14 05:57:12 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 15:57:12 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Can anyone point me to source for a lex that works on
	Linux?
In-Reply-To: <201808131906.w7DJ6bAw005597@skeeve.com>
References: <201808131906.w7DJ6bAw005597@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <08bd01d4333f$d4dfa5d0$7e9ef170$@ronnatalie.com>

Does it have to be UNIX lex or will the GNU Flex work for you (that's what
most of the LINUX stuff uses)?


-----Original Message-----
From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Arnold Robbins
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 3:07 PM
To: tuhs at tuhs.org
Subject: [TUHS] Can anyone point me to source for a lex that works on Linux?

Hi.

Can anyone point me to source for Unix lex that can be compiled and works on
Linux?  I've tried in the past to make V7 lex work and failed.

Thanks,

Arnold



From sj at sdf.org  Tue Aug 14 07:03:44 2018
From: sj at sdf.org (Scot Jenkins)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2018 17:03:44 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Can anyone point me to source for a lex that works on
 Linux?
In-Reply-To: <201808131906.w7DJ6bAw005597@skeeve.com>
References: <201808131906.w7DJ6bAw005597@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <201808132103.w7DL3in4008770@sdf.org>

Arnold Robbins <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

> Can anyone point me to source for Unix lex that can be compiled and
> works on Linux?  I've tried in the past to make V7 lex work and failed.

Heirloom development tools includes lex:
http://heirloom.sourceforge.net/devtools.html

I had it working on an older version of Slackware (12.x?) years ago.
It should still build on current Linux systems.

You need to build/install heirloom-sh first, then use it when
building heirloom-devtools.

scot


From arnold at skeeve.com  Tue Aug 14 17:41:01 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 01:41:01 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Can anyone point me to source for a lex that works on
 Linux?
In-Reply-To: <08bd01d4333f$d4dfa5d0$7e9ef170$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <201808131906.w7DJ6bAw005597@skeeve.com>
 <08bd01d4333f$d4dfa5d0$7e9ef170$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <201808140741.w7E7f1g8029806@freefriends.org>

I am looking specifically for Unix lex; I have some old code that
assumes some knowlede of lex internals.

I will try the Heirloom Toolchest version that was mentioned
in another message.

Thanks to you and everyone who replied,

Arnold

<ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> Does it have to be UNIX lex or will the GNU Flex work for you (that's what
> most of the LINUX stuff uses)?
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Arnold Robbins
> Sent: Monday, August 13, 2018 3:07 PM
> To: tuhs at tuhs.org
> Subject: [TUHS] Can anyone point me to source for a lex that works on Linux?
>
> Hi.
>
> Can anyone point me to source for Unix lex that can be compiled and works on
> Linux?  I've tried in the past to make V7 lex work and failed.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Arnold


From ca6c at bitmessage.ch  Wed Aug 15 05:16:12 2018
From: ca6c at bitmessage.ch (=?utf-8?B?Q8OhZw==?=)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 14:16:12 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Can anyone point me to source for a lex that works on
 Linux?
In-Reply-To: <08bd01d4333f$d4dfa5d0$7e9ef170$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <201808131906.w7DJ6bAw005597@skeeve.com>
 <08bd01d4333f$d4dfa5d0$7e9ef170$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <20180814191612.UM_UM%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>

Ron wrote:

> Does it have to be UNIX lex or will the GNU Flex work for you (that's
> what most of the LINUX stuff uses)?

Actually flex is not a GNU project, and is in fact based on the old
Berkeley implementation, so it's kinda Unix-y.

--
caóc



From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Wed Aug 15 06:29:10 2018
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 16:29:10 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] [groff] Creating a numbered list without macros
Message-ID: <201808142029.w7EKTAhh040340@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

An arguable distinction:

I thought hard about claiming priority for -ms. Joe Ossanna intended
option -m to foster macro packages from the outset. -man was an early use,
hidden in the man command.  But -man was not packaged (in the sense of
being an announced feature that can be used from its external description)
until v7. -ms appeared in v6.

Doug

Arnold Robbins <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

> Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
>>> Why create ms when you have mm?
>>
>> Well, the real reason is that ms was the very first macro package.
>> It has held up spectactularly well, evolving much less than the
>> underlying [ntg]roff.
>>
>> Doug
> 
> Or say, rather, the first *general purpose* macro package. The man
> macros predate it. :-)


From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Aug 15 09:20:25 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 09:20:25 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Can anyone point me to source for a lex that works on
 Linux?
In-Reply-To: <20180814191612.UM_UM%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>
References: <201808131906.w7DJ6bAw005597@skeeve.com>
 <08bd01d4333f$d4dfa5d0$7e9ef170$@ronnatalie.com>
 <20180814191612.UM_UM%ca6c@bitmessage.ch>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808150919080.807@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 14 Aug 2018, Cág wrote:

> Actually flex is not a GNU project, and is in fact based on the old 
> Berkeley implementation, so it's kinda Unix-y.

And if Flex was indeed a Gnu project, then surely it would've been called 
Glex?  :-)

-- Dave

From ron at ronnatalie.com  Wed Aug 15 12:39:18 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2018 22:39:18 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] [groff] Creating a numbered list without macros
In-Reply-To: <201808142029.w7EKTAhh040340@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201808142029.w7EKTAhh040340@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <161001d43441$2aef2020$80cd6060$@ronnatalie.com>

There was a bit of internal controversy at JHU when Michael John Muuss added
his tmac.jm macro package.   Many people thought the -mjm nroff option was a
little self serving.




From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Aug 15 16:22:48 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2018 00:22:48 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] [groff] Creating a numbered list without macros
In-Reply-To: <201808142029.w7EKTAhh040340@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201808142029.w7EKTAhh040340@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <201808150622.w7F6MmT8007272@freefriends.org>

I wasn't aware of the history / distinction, thanks.

Arnold

Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> An arguable distinction:
>
> I thought hard about claiming priority for -ms. Joe Ossanna intended
> option -m to foster macro packages from the outset. -man was an early use,
> hidden in the man command.  But -man was not packaged (in the sense of
> being an announced feature that can be used from its external description)
> until v7. -ms appeared in v6.
>
> Doug
>
> Arnold Robbins <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> > Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> > 
> >>> Why create ms when you have mm?
> >>
> >> Well, the real reason is that ms was the very first macro package.
> >> It has held up spectactularly well, evolving much less than the
> >> underlying [ntg]roff.
> >>
> >> Doug
> > 
> > Or say, rather, the first *general purpose* macro package. The man
> > macros predate it. :-)


From perry at piermont.com  Sun Aug 19 05:57:33 2018
From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2018 15:57:33 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Formal Specification and Verification (was Re:  TUHS Digest,
 Vol 33, Issue 5)
In-Reply-To: <50772e199f3dcc5d4eba34d17322b5aef0aa0441@webmail.yaccman.com>
References: <1533573030.3671.98.camel@mni.thm.de>
 <50772e199f3dcc5d4eba34d17322b5aef0aa0441@webmail.yaccman.com>
Message-ID: <20180818155733.523a3d2d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but this is a _very_ important
topic. Perhaps it doesn't belong on tuhs but rather on coff.

This is a pretty long posting. If you don't care to read it, the TL;DR
is that formal specification and verification is now a real
discipline, which it wasn't in the old days, and there are systems to
do it in, and it's well understood.

On 2018-08-06 at 08:52 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
>
> What counts as a "formal spec"? Is it like Justice Potter
> Stewart's "I know it when I see it" definition or something
> better?

At this point, we have a good definition. A formal specification is a
description of the behavior of a program or piece of hardware in a
precise machine-readable form that may be used as the basis for fully
formal verification of the behavior of an implementation. Often these
days, the specification is given in a formal logic, such as the
predicative calculus of inductive constructions, which is the logic
underlying the Coq system.

Isabelle/HOL is another popular system for this sort of work. ACL2 is
(from what I can tell) of more historical interest but it has
apparently been used for things like the formal verification of
floating point and cache control units for real hardware. (It is my
understanding that it has been many years since Intel would dare
release a system where the cache unit wasn't verified, and the only
time in decades it tried to release a non-verified FPU, it got the
FDIV bug and has never tried that again.) There are some others out
there, like F*, Lean, etc.

Formal specifications good enough for full formal verification have
been made for a variety of artifacts along with proofs that the
artifacts follow the specification. There's a fully formally verified
C compiler called CompCert for example, based on an operational
semantics written in Coq. There's another formal semantics for C
written in K, which is a rather different formal system. There's a
verified microkernel, seL4, whose specification is written in
Isabelle/HOL. There's a fully formal specification of the RISC V, and
an associated verified RTL implementation.

Generally speaking, a formal specification:

1) Must be machine readable
2) The semantics of the underlying specification language must
   themselves be extremely precisely described. You can't prove the
   consistency and completeness of the underlying system (see Gödel)
   but you _can_ still strongly specify the language.
3) Must be usable for formal (that is, machine checkable) proofs that
   implementations comply with the spec, so it has to be sufficiently
   powerful. Typical systems are now equivalent to higher order logic.

From: "Hellwig Geisse" <hellwig.geisse at mni.thm.de>
Sent:Mon, 06 Aug 2018 18:30:30 +0200
>
>  For me, a "formal spec" should serve two goals:
>  1) You can reason about the thing that is specified.

Yes.

2) The spec can be "executed" (i.e., there is an
>  interpreting mechanism, which lets the spec behave
>  like the real thing).

Not always reasonable.

First, it is often the case that a spec does not describe execution at
all. See, for example, the specification of a sorting function I give
at the end of this message: it simply says "a sorting function is a
function such that, for all inputs, the return is a non-decreasing
permutation of the input". This is not executable. It is a purely
descriptive property, and you cannot extract an executable algorithm
from the spec.

Second, even when a spec amounts to a description of execution, a
proof assistant often cannot actually execute it. For example,
although you can reason about non-terminating execution in pCiC (and
thus Coq), programs written in a strongly normalizing lambda calculus
that can be used as a logic must terminate, or functions that did not
terminate would be inhabitants of all types and the logic would be
inconsistent. Thus, you cannot execute a program with infinite loops
inside Coq, although you can reason about them (and indeed, you can
reason about coinductively defined objects like infinite execution
traces.)

On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 14:19:31 -0700 "Steve Johnson" <scj at yaccman.com>
wrote:
> I take a somewhat more relaxed view of what a spec should be:
> It should describe a program with enough completeness that a
> competent programmer could write it from the spec alone.

I think this is a bit more relaxed than is currently accepted.

> The formal systems I have seen would roll over and die when
> presented with even a simple compiler.__

I don't know what this means. If it is that there aren't
implementations of languages like pCiC, that's not true, see Coq. If
it means no one can formally specify a compiler, given that formally
verified compilers exist, that's also not true.

The "final theorem" proving the correctness of CompCert depends on
having an operational semantics of both C and the target architecture,
and says (more or less) that the observed behavior of the input
program in C is the same as the observed behavior of the output
program (say in ARM machine language). This is a serious piece of
work, but it is also something that has actually been done -- the
tools are capable of the task.

> Additionally, being able to specify that a particular function be
> carried out by a heapsort, for example, would require that the
> formalism could describe the heapsort and prove it correct.__ These
> don't grow on trees...

Formally verifying a couple of sorting algorithms described in Coq is
a exercise for an intro level class on formal verification. I've done
it. Once you have the proper primitives described, the specification
for a sorting algorithm in Coq looks like this:

Definition is_a_sorting_algorithm (f: list nat -> list nat) :=
  forall al, Permutation al (f al) /\ sorted (f al).

That says "the property "is_a_sorting_algorithm" over a function from
lists of natural numbers to lists of natural numbers is that the
output is a permutation of the input in which all the elements are in
non-decreasing order." The definitions in question are very
precise. For example, one definition of sorted (the property of being
a non-decreasing list) is:

Definition sorted (al: list nat) :=
 forall i j, i < j < length al -> nth i al 0 <= nth j al 0.

and the property of being a permutation, which is relatively
complicated inductively defined property, is:

Inductive Permutation {A : Type} : list A -> list A -> Prop :=
    perm_nil : Permutation
  | perm_skip : forall (x : A) (l l' : list A),
                Permutation l l' ->
                Permutation (x :: l) (x :: l')
  | perm_swap : forall (x y : A) (l : list A),
                Permutation (y :: x :: l) (x :: y :: l)
  | perm_trans : forall l l' l'' : list A,
                 Permutation l l' ->
                 Permutation l' l'' ->
                 Permutation l l''.

Coq starts out with basically nothing defined, by the way. Notions
such as "natural number" and "list" are not built in. Peano naturals
are defined in the system thusly:

Inductive nat : Type :=
  | O : nat
  | S : nat -> nat.

The underlying basis of Coq (i.e. the Predicative Calculus of
Inductive Constructions) is a dependently typed lambda calculus that's
astonishingly simple, and the checker for proofs in the system is only
a few hundred lines long -- the checker is the only portion of the
system which needs to be trusted.

In recent years, I've noted that "old timers" (such as many of us,
myself included) seem to be unaware of the fact that systems like Coq
exist, or that it is now relatively (I emphasize _relatively_) routine
for substantial systems to be fully formally specified and then fully
formally verified.


Perry
-- 
Perry E. Metzger		perry at piermont.com


From ggm at algebras.org  Mon Aug 20 09:47:58 2018
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 09:47:58 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Formal Specification and Verification (was Re: TUHS
 Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5)
In-Reply-To: <20180818155733.523a3d2d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
References: <1533573030.3671.98.camel@mni.thm.de>
 <50772e199f3dcc5d4eba34d17322b5aef0aa0441@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <20180818155733.523a3d2d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn1+2AM_B1HgmOWQMNHH6jdHGcaOyRBEpFQog8Lmo8Mufw@mail.gmail.com>

Witness to this, the interest in *trying* to apply Coq to Ethereum
smart contracts...

I say "try" because as a complete skeptic, I think the attempt is
doomed except in very small sense. But the reason they are trying is
the importance to FinTech of formally verified state in the expression
of financial transactions. These are serious people. A bunch from
french academic research institutions, a bunch from the CSIRO in
Australia.

I think Perry wrote something of long term value. I encourage you to
write this up somewhere you'd be willing to have published like a tech
blog.

-G

On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 5:57 AM, Perry E. Metzger <perry at piermont.com> wrote:
> Sorry for the thread necromancy, but this is a _very_ important
> topic. Perhaps it doesn't belong on tuhs but rather on coff.
>
> This is a pretty long posting. If you don't care to read it, the TL;DR
> is that formal specification and verification is now a real
> discipline, which it wasn't in the old days, and there are systems to
> do it in, and it's well understood.
>
> On 2018-08-06 at 08:52 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
>>
>> What counts as a "formal spec"? Is it like Justice Potter
>> Stewart's "I know it when I see it" definition or something
>> better?
>
> At this point, we have a good definition. A formal specification is a
> description of the behavior of a program or piece of hardware in a
> precise machine-readable form that may be used as the basis for fully
> formal verification of the behavior of an implementation. Often these
> days, the specification is given in a formal logic, such as the
> predicative calculus of inductive constructions, which is the logic
> underlying the Coq system.
>
> Isabelle/HOL is another popular system for this sort of work. ACL2 is
> (from what I can tell) of more historical interest but it has
> apparently been used for things like the formal verification of
> floating point and cache control units for real hardware. (It is my
> understanding that it has been many years since Intel would dare
> release a system where the cache unit wasn't verified, and the only
> time in decades it tried to release a non-verified FPU, it got the
> FDIV bug and has never tried that again.) There are some others out
> there, like F*, Lean, etc.
>
> Formal specifications good enough for full formal verification have
> been made for a variety of artifacts along with proofs that the
> artifacts follow the specification. There's a fully formally verified
> C compiler called CompCert for example, based on an operational
> semantics written in Coq. There's another formal semantics for C
> written in K, which is a rather different formal system. There's a
> verified microkernel, seL4, whose specification is written in
> Isabelle/HOL. There's a fully formal specification of the RISC V, and
> an associated verified RTL implementation.
>
> Generally speaking, a formal specification:
>
> 1) Must be machine readable
> 2) The semantics of the underlying specification language must
>    themselves be extremely precisely described. You can't prove the
>    consistency and completeness of the underlying system (see Gödel)
>    but you _can_ still strongly specify the language.
> 3) Must be usable for formal (that is, machine checkable) proofs that
>    implementations comply with the spec, so it has to be sufficiently
>    powerful. Typical systems are now equivalent to higher order logic.
>
> From: "Hellwig Geisse" <hellwig.geisse at mni.thm.de>
> Sent:Mon, 06 Aug 2018 18:30:30 +0200
>>
>>  For me, a "formal spec" should serve two goals:
>>  1) You can reason about the thing that is specified.
>
> Yes.
>
> 2) The spec can be "executed" (i.e., there is an
>>  interpreting mechanism, which lets the spec behave
>>  like the real thing).
>
> Not always reasonable.
>
> First, it is often the case that a spec does not describe execution at
> all. See, for example, the specification of a sorting function I give
> at the end of this message: it simply says "a sorting function is a
> function such that, for all inputs, the return is a non-decreasing
> permutation of the input". This is not executable. It is a purely
> descriptive property, and you cannot extract an executable algorithm
> from the spec.
>
> Second, even when a spec amounts to a description of execution, a
> proof assistant often cannot actually execute it. For example,
> although you can reason about non-terminating execution in pCiC (and
> thus Coq), programs written in a strongly normalizing lambda calculus
> that can be used as a logic must terminate, or functions that did not
> terminate would be inhabitants of all types and the logic would be
> inconsistent. Thus, you cannot execute a program with infinite loops
> inside Coq, although you can reason about them (and indeed, you can
> reason about coinductively defined objects like infinite execution
> traces.)
>
> On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 14:19:31 -0700 "Steve Johnson" <scj at yaccman.com>
> wrote:
>> I take a somewhat more relaxed view of what a spec should be:
>> It should describe a program with enough completeness that a
>> competent programmer could write it from the spec alone.
>
> I think this is a bit more relaxed than is currently accepted.
>
>> The formal systems I have seen would roll over and die when
>> presented with even a simple compiler.__
>
> I don't know what this means. If it is that there aren't
> implementations of languages like pCiC, that's not true, see Coq. If
> it means no one can formally specify a compiler, given that formally
> verified compilers exist, that's also not true.
>
> The "final theorem" proving the correctness of CompCert depends on
> having an operational semantics of both C and the target architecture,
> and says (more or less) that the observed behavior of the input
> program in C is the same as the observed behavior of the output
> program (say in ARM machine language). This is a serious piece of
> work, but it is also something that has actually been done -- the
> tools are capable of the task.
>
>> Additionally, being able to specify that a particular function be
>> carried out by a heapsort, for example, would require that the
>> formalism could describe the heapsort and prove it correct.__ These
>> don't grow on trees...
>
> Formally verifying a couple of sorting algorithms described in Coq is
> a exercise for an intro level class on formal verification. I've done
> it. Once you have the proper primitives described, the specification
> for a sorting algorithm in Coq looks like this:
>
> Definition is_a_sorting_algorithm (f: list nat -> list nat) :=
>   forall al, Permutation al (f al) /\ sorted (f al).
>
> That says "the property "is_a_sorting_algorithm" over a function from
> lists of natural numbers to lists of natural numbers is that the
> output is a permutation of the input in which all the elements are in
> non-decreasing order." The definitions in question are very
> precise. For example, one definition of sorted (the property of being
> a non-decreasing list) is:
>
> Definition sorted (al: list nat) :=
>  forall i j, i < j < length al -> nth i al 0 <= nth j al 0.
>
> and the property of being a permutation, which is relatively
> complicated inductively defined property, is:
>
> Inductive Permutation {A : Type} : list A -> list A -> Prop :=
>     perm_nil : Permutation
>   | perm_skip : forall (x : A) (l l' : list A),
>                 Permutation l l' ->
>                 Permutation (x :: l) (x :: l')
>   | perm_swap : forall (x y : A) (l : list A),
>                 Permutation (y :: x :: l) (x :: y :: l)
>   | perm_trans : forall l l' l'' : list A,
>                  Permutation l l' ->
>                  Permutation l' l'' ->
>                  Permutation l l''.
>
> Coq starts out with basically nothing defined, by the way. Notions
> such as "natural number" and "list" are not built in. Peano naturals
> are defined in the system thusly:
>
> Inductive nat : Type :=
>   | O : nat
>   | S : nat -> nat.
>
> The underlying basis of Coq (i.e. the Predicative Calculus of
> Inductive Constructions) is a dependently typed lambda calculus that's
> astonishingly simple, and the checker for proofs in the system is only
> a few hundred lines long -- the checker is the only portion of the
> system which needs to be trusted.
>
> In recent years, I've noted that "old timers" (such as many of us,
> myself included) seem to be unaware of the fact that systems like Coq
> exist, or that it is now relatively (I emphasize _relatively_) routine
> for substantial systems to be fully formally specified and then fully
> formally verified.
>
>
> Perry
> --
> Perry E. Metzger                perry at piermont.com


From perry at piermont.com  Mon Aug 20 10:57:58 2018
From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2018 20:57:58 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Formal Specification and Verification (was Re: TUHS
 Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5)
In-Reply-To: <CAKr6gn1+2AM_B1HgmOWQMNHH6jdHGcaOyRBEpFQog8Lmo8Mufw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1533573030.3671.98.camel@mni.thm.de>
 <50772e199f3dcc5d4eba34d17322b5aef0aa0441@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <20180818155733.523a3d2d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CAKr6gn1+2AM_B1HgmOWQMNHH6jdHGcaOyRBEpFQog8Lmo8Mufw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180819205758.6903142c@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 09:47:58 +1000 George Michaelson
<ggm at algebras.org> wrote:
> Witness to this, the interest in *trying* to apply Coq to Ethereum
> smart contracts...

The Tezos cryptocurrency was created with a smart contract language
specifically designed for formal verification.

> I think Perry wrote something of long term value. I encourage you to
> write this up somewhere you'd be willing to have published like a
> tech blog.

Not sure where one would publish it.

I also note that the general response here was the one I almost always
get when I mention this stuff to people, which is near silence. (I
used to get exactly this response 30 or 35 years ago when explaining
the Internet to most people who had not yet come into contact with it,
so I suppose it's not overly surprising.)

That said, let me make a strong prediction: in not very many years,
pretty much everyone doing serious work in computer science (say,
designing security protocols, building mission critical systems, etc.)
will be building them using some sort of formal verification assistant
systems. I suspect this change will be as transformative as the
triumph of high level languages over the previous supremacy of machine
language coding. (For those that forget, one of the things that made
Unix successful was, of course, that unlike many other OSes of the
era, it was (ultimately) written in a portable language and not in
machine code.)

People who don't use formal verification when writing serious code
will seem as antiquated and irresponsible as people who build mission
critical systems now without test coverage. This is going to be a big
revolution.


Perry


> -G
> 
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2018 at 5:57 AM, Perry E. Metzger
> <perry at piermont.com> wrote:
> > Sorry for the thread necromancy, but this is a _very_ important
> > topic. Perhaps it doesn't belong on tuhs but rather on coff.
> >
> > This is a pretty long posting. If you don't care to read it, the
> > TL;DR is that formal specification and verification is now a real
> > discipline, which it wasn't in the old days, and there are
> > systems to do it in, and it's well understood.
> >
> > On 2018-08-06 at 08:52 -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:  
> >>
> >> What counts as a "formal spec"? Is it like Justice Potter
> >> Stewart's "I know it when I see it" definition or something
> >> better?  
> >
> > At this point, we have a good definition. A formal specification
> > is a description of the behavior of a program or piece of
> > hardware in a precise machine-readable form that may be used as
> > the basis for fully formal verification of the behavior of an
> > implementation. Often these days, the specification is given in a
> > formal logic, such as the predicative calculus of inductive
> > constructions, which is the logic underlying the Coq system.
> >
> > Isabelle/HOL is another popular system for this sort of work.
> > ACL2 is (from what I can tell) of more historical interest but it
> > has apparently been used for things like the formal verification
> > of floating point and cache control units for real hardware. (It
> > is my understanding that it has been many years since Intel would
> > dare release a system where the cache unit wasn't verified, and
> > the only time in decades it tried to release a non-verified FPU,
> > it got the FDIV bug and has never tried that again.) There are
> > some others out there, like F*, Lean, etc.
> >
> > Formal specifications good enough for full formal verification
> > have been made for a variety of artifacts along with proofs that
> > the artifacts follow the specification. There's a fully formally
> > verified C compiler called CompCert for example, based on an
> > operational semantics written in Coq. There's another formal
> > semantics for C written in K, which is a rather different formal
> > system. There's a verified microkernel, seL4, whose specification
> > is written in Isabelle/HOL. There's a fully formal specification
> > of the RISC V, and an associated verified RTL implementation.
> >
> > Generally speaking, a formal specification:
> >
> > 1) Must be machine readable
> > 2) The semantics of the underlying specification language must
> >    themselves be extremely precisely described. You can't prove
> > the consistency and completeness of the underlying system (see
> > G__del) but you _can_ still strongly specify the language.
> > 3) Must be usable for formal (that is, machine checkable) proofs
> > that implementations comply with the spec, so it has to be
> > sufficiently powerful. Typical systems are now equivalent to
> > higher order logic.
> >
> > From: "Hellwig Geisse" <hellwig.geisse at mni.thm.de>
> > Sent:Mon, 06 Aug 2018 18:30:30 +0200  
> >>
> >>  For me, a "formal spec" should serve two goals:
> >>  1) You can reason about the thing that is specified.  
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > 2) The spec can be "executed" (i.e., there is an  
> >>  interpreting mechanism, which lets the spec behave
> >>  like the real thing).  
> >
> > Not always reasonable.
> >
> > First, it is often the case that a spec does not describe
> > execution at all. See, for example, the specification of a
> > sorting function I give at the end of this message: it simply
> > says "a sorting function is a function such that, for all inputs,
> > the return is a non-decreasing permutation of the input". This is
> > not executable. It is a purely descriptive property, and you
> > cannot extract an executable algorithm from the spec.
> >
> > Second, even when a spec amounts to a description of execution, a
> > proof assistant often cannot actually execute it. For example,
> > although you can reason about non-terminating execution in pCiC
> > (and thus Coq), programs written in a strongly normalizing lambda
> > calculus that can be used as a logic must terminate, or functions
> > that did not terminate would be inhabitants of all types and the
> > logic would be inconsistent. Thus, you cannot execute a program
> > with infinite loops inside Coq, although you can reason about
> > them (and indeed, you can reason about coinductively defined
> > objects like infinite execution traces.)
> >
> > On Mon, 06 Aug 2018 14:19:31 -0700 "Steve Johnson"
> > <scj at yaccman.com> wrote:  
> >> I take a somewhat more relaxed view of what a spec should be:
> >> It should describe a program with enough completeness that a
> >> competent programmer could write it from the spec alone.  
> >
> > I think this is a bit more relaxed than is currently accepted.
> >  
> >> The formal systems I have seen would roll over and die when
> >> presented with even a simple compiler.__  
> >
> > I don't know what this means. If it is that there aren't
> > implementations of languages like pCiC, that's not true, see Coq.
> > If it means no one can formally specify a compiler, given that
> > formally verified compilers exist, that's also not true.
> >
> > The "final theorem" proving the correctness of CompCert depends on
> > having an operational semantics of both C and the target
> > architecture, and says (more or less) that the observed behavior
> > of the input program in C is the same as the observed behavior of
> > the output program (say in ARM machine language). This is a
> > serious piece of work, but it is also something that has actually
> > been done -- the tools are capable of the task.
> >  
> >> Additionally, being able to specify that a particular function be
> >> carried out by a heapsort, for example, would require that the
> >> formalism could describe the heapsort and prove it correct.__
> >> These don't grow on trees...  
> >
> > Formally verifying a couple of sorting algorithms described in
> > Coq is a exercise for an intro level class on formal
> > verification. I've done it. Once you have the proper primitives
> > described, the specification for a sorting algorithm in Coq looks
> > like this:
> >
> > Definition is_a_sorting_algorithm (f: list nat -> list nat) :=
> >   forall al, Permutation al (f al) /\ sorted (f al).
> >
> > That says "the property "is_a_sorting_algorithm" over a function
> > from lists of natural numbers to lists of natural numbers is that
> > the output is a permutation of the input in which all the
> > elements are in non-decreasing order." The definitions in
> > question are very precise. For example, one definition of sorted
> > (the property of being a non-decreasing list) is:
> >
> > Definition sorted (al: list nat) :=
> >  forall i j, i < j < length al -> nth i al 0 <= nth j al 0.
> >
> > and the property of being a permutation, which is relatively
> > complicated inductively defined property, is:
> >
> > Inductive Permutation {A : Type} : list A -> list A -> Prop :=
> >     perm_nil : Permutation
> >   | perm_skip : forall (x : A) (l l' : list A),
> >                 Permutation l l' ->
> >                 Permutation (x :: l) (x :: l')
> >   | perm_swap : forall (x y : A) (l : list A),
> >                 Permutation (y :: x :: l) (x :: y :: l)
> >   | perm_trans : forall l l' l'' : list A,
> >                  Permutation l l' ->
> >                  Permutation l' l'' ->
> >                  Permutation l l''.
> >
> > Coq starts out with basically nothing defined, by the way. Notions
> > such as "natural number" and "list" are not built in. Peano
> > naturals are defined in the system thusly:
> >
> > Inductive nat : Type :=
> >   | O : nat
> >   | S : nat -> nat.
> >
> > The underlying basis of Coq (i.e. the Predicative Calculus of
> > Inductive Constructions) is a dependently typed lambda calculus
> > that's astonishingly simple, and the checker for proofs in the
> > system is only a few hundred lines long -- the checker is the
> > only portion of the system which needs to be trusted.
> >
> > In recent years, I've noted that "old timers" (such as many of us,
> > myself included) seem to be unaware of the fact that systems like
> > Coq exist, or that it is now relatively (I emphasize
> > _relatively_) routine for substantial systems to be fully
> > formally specified and then fully formally verified.
> >
> >
> > Perry
> > --
> > Perry E. Metzger                perry at piermont.com  
> 



-- 
Perry E. Metzger		perry at piermont.com


From wkt at tuhs.org  Mon Aug 20 13:29:32 2018
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:29:32 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Formal Specification and Verification
In-Reply-To: <20180819205758.6903142c@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
References: <1533573030.3671.98.camel@mni.thm.de>
 <50772e199f3dcc5d4eba34d17322b5aef0aa0441@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <20180818155733.523a3d2d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CAKr6gn1+2AM_B1HgmOWQMNHH6jdHGcaOyRBEpFQog8Lmo8Mufw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180819205758.6903142c@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <20180820032932.GB29224@minnie.tuhs.org>

I've forwarded the last e-mail in this thread to the COFF mailing list,
as it's strictly not TUHS related. Feel free to continue engaging in the
conversation over there!

Cheers, Warren


From pnr at planet.nl  Mon Aug 20 18:12:32 2018
From: pnr at planet.nl (Paul Ruizendaal)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 10:12:32 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Formal Specification and Verification
Message-ID: <CA3D8330-BCE9-41CB-B096-3E7D0E55C5EA@planet.nl>

> I also note that the general response here was the one I almost always
> get when I mention this stuff to people, which is near silence.

Don’t take that as disinterest. For me at least it simply reflects that
I need to find some time to read up on and digest the points you were making.

Paul



From dot at dotat.at  Tue Aug 21 04:48:15 2018
From: dot at dotat.at (Tony Finch)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 19:48:15 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Formal Specification and Verification (was Re: TUHS
 Digest, Vol 33, Issue 5)
In-Reply-To: <20180818155733.523a3d2d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
References: <1533573030.3671.98.camel@mni.thm.de>
 <50772e199f3dcc5d4eba34d17322b5aef0aa0441@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <20180818155733.523a3d2d@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1808201939560.3596@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>

Perry E. Metzger <perry at piermont.com> wrote:
>
> This is a pretty long posting. If you don't care to read it, the TL;DR
> is that formal specification and verification is now a real
> discipline, which it wasn't in the old days, and there are systems to
> do it in, and it's well understood.

Another example, of a somewhat different flavour, is
http://lamport.azurewebsites.net/tla/amazon.html

The difference being that I gather Amazon are using TLA+ more as a
modelling language for distributed systems and not strictly for verifying
implementations.

PS. If there is a historical Lamport / Unix connection, I'm not aware of
one...

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finch  <dot at dotat.at>  http://dotat.at/
protect and enlarge the conditions of liberty and social justice


From Caipenghui_c at 163.com  Tue Aug 21 14:55:03 2018
From: Caipenghui_c at 163.com (Caipenghui)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:55:03 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
Message-ID: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>

Hello everyone

Hello everyone, I have a question, I looked at the source code of early Unix, found that a lot of.c files did
not contain header files, so compiler compiler will not error?

Caipenghui
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180821/11034352/attachment.html>

From wkt at tuhs.org  Tue Aug 21 16:00:19 2018
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 16:00:19 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
Message-ID: <96BFB455-917B-43C6-ADB3-C8DE96E09B22@tuhs.org>

And just a note that Caipenghui is new to the list, he is from China and dmr is one of his heroes.
Cheers, Warren
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180821/2f9c2fe5/attachment.html>

From ckeck at texoma.net  Wed Aug 22 07:37:43 2018
From: ckeck at texoma.net (Cornelius Keck)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2018 16:37:43 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
Message-ID: <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180821/41361184/attachment.html>

From Caipenghui_c at 163.com  Wed Aug 22 14:25:26 2018
From: Caipenghui_c at 163.com (Caipenghui)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 12:25:26 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Cornelius Keck
In-Reply-To: <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
 <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
Message-ID: <2D648F8B-DA31-4069-8C20-8DE89EA339C7@163.com>

On August 22, 2018 5:37:43 AM GMT+08:00, Cornelius Keck <ckeck at texoma.net> wrote:
> Early C-compilers didn't care much about prototypes. The default return
> type of a function would be an int. It was up to the code's author to
> pass the right (amount, order, type). The linker didn't care about
> signatures as long as the symbol resolved.
>
>
> What one did need were struct definitions and macros, such as getchar,
> putchar, min, max, abs, because they might not be provided by some
> library, causing link to fail.
>
>
> Back then one could get away with constructs creative enough to make a
> modern compiler blow a gasket, and it would all run just fine, as long
> as one didn't accidentally drop a bunch of bits when typecasting, and
> sizeof(int) = sizeof(int*).
>
>
> Those were interesting times. I do miss them.
>
>
>
> Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
>
> Von: Caipenghui
>
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. August 2018 00:12
>
> An: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
>
> Betreff: [TUHS] About Unix header files
>
>
> Hello everyone
>
> Hello everyone, I have a question, I looked at the source code of early
> Unix, found that a lot of.c files did
> not contain header files, so compiler compiler will not error?
>
> Caipenghui

We miss DMR. DMR is dead, but we
will not forget his contribution to
humanity. We will learn a simple humorous spirit of DMR. Not only did he teach us to code, he seemed to convey a human spirit. DMR also conveys the spirit of Unix philosophy, such as kiss.do a thing, do it well, etc.

Caipenghui



From caipenghui_c at 163.com  Wed Aug 22 22:01:42 2018
From: caipenghui_c at 163.com (cc)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 20:01:42 +0800 (GMT+08:00)
Subject: [TUHS] A c program problem
Message-ID: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>

Hello everyone

I had a problem compiling a piece of c code from the book. The result of running the book is 5050, but the compiler is 100. I don't know which is right, please help me to see which is wrong. Thank you very much!

#include <stdio.h>

int main(void)
{
       int i, sum = 0;
       i = 1;
       while ( i <= 100) {
       sum = sum + 1;
       i++;
       }
       printf("%d\n", sum)
       return 0;
}




| |
cc
|
|
邮箱：caipenghui_c at 163.com
|

签名由 网易邮箱大师 定制
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180822/f43526e0/attachment.html>

From Caipenghui_c at 163.com  Wed Aug 22 22:04:54 2018
From: Caipenghui_c at 163.com (Caipenghui)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 20:04:54 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] .
Message-ID: <9C284653-55E8-4AED-B754-1FBBDF82D8DE@163.com>

.



From mutiny.mutiny at india.com  Wed Aug 22 22:24:26 2018
From: mutiny.mutiny at india.com (Donald ODona)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 12:24:26 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [TUHS] A c program problem
In-Reply-To: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
References: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
Message-ID: <1281463715.239847.1534940666012.JavaMail.tomcat@india-live-be04>



At 22 Aug 2018 12:18:08 +0000 (+00:00) from cc <caipenghui_c at 163.com>:
> Hello everyone
> 
> I had a problem compiling a piece of c code from the book. The result of running the book is 5050, but the compiler is 100. I don't know which is right, please help me to see which is wrong. Thank you very much!
> 
> #include <stdio.h>
> 
> int main(void)
> {
>        int i, sum = 0;
>        i = 1;
>        while ( i <= 100) {
>        sum = sum + 1;
>        i++;
>        }
>        printf("%d\n", sum)
>        return 0;
> }
> 
> 
> 
> 
> | |
> cc
> |
> |
> 邮箱：caipenghui_c at 163.com
> |
> 
> 签名由 网易邮箱大师 定制


From cubexyz at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 22:54:17 2018
From: cubexyz at gmail.com (Mark Longridge)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 08:54:17 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A c program problem
In-Reply-To: <1281463715.239847.1534940666012.JavaMail.tomcat@india-live-be04>
References: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <1281463715.239847.1534940666012.JavaMail.tomcat@india-live-be04>
Message-ID: <CADxT5N75gW=xq7tjDW+Zi_6ZoiCBqEA8YToFU3N4co7zrsmzwQ@mail.gmail.com>

Looks like a typographical error.

if you change the line:

sum = sum + 1;

to

sum = sum + i;

then you will get 5050.

Also the line with printf should have a semi-colon at the end.

On 8/22/18, Donald ODona <mutiny.mutiny at india.com> wrote:
>
>
> At 22 Aug 2018 12:18:08 +0000 (+00:00) from cc <caipenghui_c at 163.com>:
>> Hello everyone
>>
>> I had a problem compiling a piece of c code from the book. The result of
>> running the book is 5050, but the compiler is 100. I don't know which is
>> right, please help me to see which is wrong. Thank you very much!
>>
>> #include <stdio.h>
>>
>> int main(void)
>> {
>>        int i, sum = 0;
>>        i = 1;
>>        while ( i <= 100) {
>>        sum = sum + 1;
>>        i++;
>>        }
>>        printf("%d\n", sum)
>>        return 0;
>> }
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> | |
>> cc
>> |
>> |
>> 邮箱：caipenghui_c at 163.com
>> |
>>
>> 签名由 网易邮箱大师 定制
>


From perry at piermont.com  Wed Aug 22 23:44:52 2018
From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 09:44:52 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
 <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
Message-ID: <20180822094452.73ca043f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 16:37:43 -0500 Cornelius Keck <ckeck at texoma.net>
wrote:
> Early C-compilers didn't care much about prototypes. The default
> return type of a function would be an int. It was up to the code's
> author to pass the right (amount, order, type). The linker didn't
> care about signatures as long as the symbol resolved.

To my knowledge, object file formats still don't have information
about type signatures, and linkers still don't care about types. This
is actually a problem. It would probably prevent a lot of errors if
those things changed.

Perry
-- 
Perry E. Metzger		perry at piermont.com


From crossd at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 00:21:45 2018
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 10:21:45 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A c program problem
In-Reply-To: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
References: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W4wUu6ZKUUVU=i5-ZnGjWAJuP3df7Hrc6v1yKOkf4BmUw@mail.gmail.com>

Note, TUHS probably isn't the *best* forum to ask for help with basic C
programs. :-)

That said, I suspect you mis-transcribed the program and that the line,
`sum = sum + 1;` should be `sum = sum + i;`, or more idiomatically, `sum +=
i;`.  Indeed, the whole program could be written:

#include <stdio.h>

int
main(void)
{
        int i, sum = 0;
        for (i = 1; i <= 100; i++)
                sum += i;
        printf("%d\n", sum);
        return 0;
}

If you're using a C99 or later compiler, you can be slightly more succinct:

#include <stdio.h>

int
main(void)
{
        int sum = 0;
        for (int i = 1; i <= 100; i++)
                sum += i;
        printf("%d\n", sum);
        return 0;
}

Hope that helps!

       - Dan C.


On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 8:17 AM cc <caipenghui_c at 163.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone
>
> I had a problem compiling a piece of c code from the book. The result of
> running the book is 5050, but the compiler is 100. I don't know which is
> right, please help me to see which is wrong. Thank you very much!
>
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> int main(void)
> {
>        int i, sum = 0;
>        i = 1;
>        while ( i <= 100) {
>        sum = sum + 1;
>        i++;
>        }
>        printf("%d\n", sum)
>        return 0;
> }
>
>
>
> cc
> 邮箱：caipenghui_c at 163.com
>
> <https://maas.mail.163.com/dashi-web-extend/html/proSignature.html?ftlId=1&name=cc&uid=caipenghui_c%40163.com&iconUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fmail-online.nosdn.127.net%2Fwzpmmc%2Fad31362036872a624ad455630205a987.jpg&items=%5B%22%E9%82%AE%E7%AE%B1%EF%BC%9Acaipenghui_c%40163.com%22%5D>
>
> 签名由 网易邮箱大师 <https://mail.163.com/dashi/dlpro.html?from=mail88> 定制
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180822/527f626f/attachment.html>

From caipenghui_c at 163.com  Thu Aug 23 00:26:37 2018
From: caipenghui_c at 163.com (cc)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:26:37 +0800 (GMT+08:00)
Subject: [TUHS] A c program problem
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W4wUu6ZKUUVU=i5-ZnGjWAJuP3df7Hrc6v1yKOkf4BmUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <CAEoi9W4wUu6ZKUUVU=i5-ZnGjWAJuP3df7Hrc6v1yKOkf4BmUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5e35d6b8.513d.1656207b82c.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>

Sorry, I won't be sending it next time. Oh oh, maybe I forgot to add; . I typed the code on the book, and the result of running the book was 5050, but the compiler was 100.


| |
cc
|
|
邮箱：caipenghui_c at 163.com
|

签名由 网易邮箱大师 定制

On 08/22/2018 22:21, Dan Cross wrote:
Note, TUHS probably isn't the *best* forum to ask for help with basic C programs. :-)


That said, I suspect you mis-transcribed the program and that the line, `sum = sum + 1;` should be `sum = sum + i;`, or more idiomatically, `sum += i;`.  Indeed, the whole program could be written:


#include <stdio.h>


int
main(void)
{
        int i, sum = 0;
        for (i = 1; i <= 100; i++)
                sum += i;
        printf("%d\n", sum);
        return 0;
}


If you're using a C99 or later compiler, you can be slightly more succinct:


#include <stdio.h>


int
main(void)
{
        int sum = 0;
        for (int i = 1; i <= 100; i++)
                sum += i;
        printf("%d\n", sum);
        return 0;
}


Hope that helps!


       - Dan C.




On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 8:17 AM cc <caipenghui_c at 163.com> wrote:

Hello everyone

I had a problem compiling a piece of c code from the book. The result of running the book is 5050, but the compiler is 100. I don't know which is right, please help me to see which is wrong. Thank you very much!

#include <stdio.h>

int main(void)
{
       int i, sum = 0;
       i = 1;
       while ( i <= 100) {
       sum = sum + 1;
       i++;
       }
       printf("%d\n", sum)
       return 0;
}




| |
cc
|
|
邮箱：caipenghui_c at 163.com
|

签名由 网易邮箱大师 定制
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180822/89bcdc8b/attachment.html>

From caipenghui_c at 163.com  Thu Aug 23 00:29:06 2018
From: caipenghui_c at 163.com (cc)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:29:06 +0800 (GMT+08:00)
Subject: [TUHS] A c program problem
In-Reply-To: <5e35d6b8.513d.1656207b82c.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
References: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <CAEoi9W4wUu6ZKUUVU=i5-ZnGjWAJuP3df7Hrc6v1yKOkf4BmUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e35d6b8.513d.1656207b82c.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
Message-ID: <4cc41edb.5155.1656209fbce.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>

I want to figure out if the book is right or the compiler is right.


| |
cc
|
|
邮箱：caipenghui_c at 163.com
|

签名由 网易邮箱大师 定制

On 08/22/2018 22:26, cc wrote:
Sorry, I won't be sending it next time. Oh oh, maybe I forgot to add; . I typed the code on the book, and the result of running the book was 5050, but the compiler was 100.


| |
cc
|
|
邮箱：caipenghui_c at 163.com
|

签名由 网易邮箱大师 定制

On 08/22/2018 22:21, Dan Cross wrote:
Note, TUHS probably isn't the *best* forum to ask for help with basic C programs. :-)


That said, I suspect you mis-transcribed the program and that the line, `sum = sum + 1;` should be `sum = sum + i;`, or more idiomatically, `sum += i;`.  Indeed, the whole program could be written:


#include <stdio.h>


int
main(void)
{
        int i, sum = 0;
        for (i = 1; i <= 100; i++)
                sum += i;
        printf("%d\n", sum);
        return 0;
}


If you're using a C99 or later compiler, you can be slightly more succinct:


#include <stdio.h>


int
main(void)
{
        int sum = 0;
        for (int i = 1; i <= 100; i++)
                sum += i;
        printf("%d\n", sum);
        return 0;
}


Hope that helps!


       - Dan C.




On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 8:17 AM cc <caipenghui_c at 163.com> wrote:

Hello everyone

I had a problem compiling a piece of c code from the book. The result of running the book is 5050, but the compiler is 100. I don't know which is right, please help me to see which is wrong. Thank you very much!

#include <stdio.h>

int main(void)
{
       int i, sum = 0;
       i = 1;
       while ( i <= 100) {
       sum = sum + 1;
       i++;
       }
       printf("%d\n", sum)
       return 0;
}




| |
cc
|
|
邮箱：caipenghui_c at 163.com
|

签名由 网易邮箱大师 定制
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180822/80046040/attachment.html>

From ralph at inputplus.co.uk  Thu Aug 23 00:32:58 2018
From: ralph at inputplus.co.uk (Ralph Corderoy)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 15:32:58 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] A c program problem
In-Reply-To: <4cc41edb.5155.1656209fbce.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
References: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <CAEoi9W4wUu6ZKUUVU=i5-ZnGjWAJuP3df7Hrc6v1yKOkf4BmUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e35d6b8.513d.1656207b82c.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <4cc41edb.5155.1656209fbce.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
Message-ID: <20180822143258.921B2200BA@orac.inputplus.co.uk>

> I want to figure out if the book is right or the compiler is right.

5050 is the right answer.  It's the 100th triangular number.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_number

Please let this off-topic thread die.

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy


From caipenghui_c at 163.com  Thu Aug 23 00:34:48 2018
From: caipenghui_c at 163.com (cc)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 22:34:48 +0800 (GMT+08:00)
Subject: [TUHS] A c program problem
In-Reply-To: <20180822143258.921B2200BA@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
References: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <CAEoi9W4wUu6ZKUUVU=i5-ZnGjWAJuP3df7Hrc6v1yKOkf4BmUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e35d6b8.513d.1656207b82c.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <4cc41edb.5155.1656209fbce.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <20180822143258.921B2200BA@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
Message-ID: <1c8dd2a4.5199.165620f3410.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>

Ok, That you.


| |
cc
|
|
邮箱：caipenghui_c at 163.com
|

签名由 网易邮箱大师 定制

On 08/22/2018 22:32, Ralph Corderoy wrote:
> I want to figure out if the book is right or the compiler is right.

5050 is the right answer.  It's the 100th triangular number.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangular_number

Please let this off-topic thread die.

--
Cheers, Ralph.
https://plus.google.com/+RalphCorderoy
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180822/b38b1a4a/attachment.html>

From paul.winalski at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 01:29:40 2018
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 11:29:40 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <20180822094452.73ca043f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
 <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
 <20180822094452.73ca043f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VRaKv-yn8VFXbxuUGN8=KeM-=_tNtBaoQGFQZsDesBjjA@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/22/18, Perry E. Metzger <perry at piermont.com> wrote:
>
> To my knowledge, object file formats still don't have information
> about type signatures, and linkers still don't care about types. This
> is actually a problem. It would probably prevent a lot of errors if
> those things changed.

For a linker to enforce (or warn about) type and call signature
matching, it would have to know the type and call semantics of each
particular language, and each particular compiler's switch options
that allow the programmer to bend the language rules.  Not impossible,
but a difficult and cumbersome problem, particularly as language and
compiler implementation semantics vary over time.

C++ and other strongly-typed languages typically hack around the
problem using name decoration.  Not elegant, but effective.

Has anyone experimented with building Unix using C++, to take
advantage of strong typing?  My guess is no--it would be a Herculean
task likely to introduce more bugs than it would fix.

-Paul W.


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Aug 23 01:40:18 2018
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 11:40:18 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] A c program problem
In-Reply-To: <4cc41edb.5155.1656209fbce.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
References: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <CAEoi9W4wUu6ZKUUVU=i5-ZnGjWAJuP3df7Hrc6v1yKOkf4BmUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e35d6b8.513d.1656207b82c.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <4cc41edb.5155.1656209fbce.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
Message-ID: <7912176e-5895-aaa3-f973-83f88b12f196@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2018-08-22 10:29 AM, cc wrote:
> I want to figure out if the book is right or the compiler is right.
> 
> 	
> cc


Donald and Dan identified the issue in earlier replies.

$ cc foo.c -o foo
$ ./foo
5050
$ cat foo.c
#include <stdio.h>
int main(void)
{
       int i, sum = 0;
       i = 1;
       while ( i <= 100) {
       sum = sum + i;
       i++;
       }
       printf("%d\n", sum);
       return 0;
}

--Toby




From perry at piermont.com  Thu Aug 23 01:46:30 2018
From: perry at piermont.com (Perry E. Metzger)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 11:46:30 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <CABH=_VRaKv-yn8VFXbxuUGN8=KeM-=_tNtBaoQGFQZsDesBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
 <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
 <20180822094452.73ca043f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CABH=_VRaKv-yn8VFXbxuUGN8=KeM-=_tNtBaoQGFQZsDesBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180822114630.31557ebe@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>

On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 11:29:40 -0400 Paul Winalski
<paul.winalski at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/22/18, Perry E. Metzger <perry at piermont.com> wrote:
> >
> > To my knowledge, object file formats still don't have information
> > about type signatures, and linkers still don't care about types.
> > This is actually a problem. It would probably prevent a lot of
> > errors if those things changed.
> 
> For a linker to enforce (or warn about) type and call signature
> matching, it would have to know the type and call semantics of each
> particular language,

Not necessarily. One could produce a language-independent way of
signaling what the type signatures are (perhaps with normalized
language-dependent strings) and the linker could just check that they
match.

I've seen several languages (like OCaml) hack around the lack of this
by providing an auxiliary file for a pre-link phase to check off
of. It would be nicer if the linker could just handle that.

And, as I noted, this would doubtless prevent a _lot_ of bugs.

One could simply decorate the symbols with a
(language, semi-opaque "type string") pair, and the linker could just
verify that they matched without understanding semantics.

> Not impossible, but a difficult and cumbersome problem, particularly
> as language and compiler implementation semantics vary over time.

As I noted, there are ways to get around that.

> C++ and other strongly-typed languages typically hack around the
> problem using name decoration.  Not elegant, but effective.

Name mangling for C++ is needed for another reason, too, which is that
a single "name" foo might be multiple different concrete functions
depending on what type it is invoked on.

> Has anyone experimented with building Unix using C++, to take
> advantage of strong typing?  My guess is no--it would be a Herculean
> task likely to introduce more bugs than it would fix.

C++ doesn't have strong typing in the modern sense. It also has some
small incompatibilities with C's syntax and semantics, sufficient that
you can't just (say) compile the Linux kernel with a C++ compiler and
have it work.

Perry
-- 
Perry E. Metzger		perry at piermont.com


From Caipenghui_c at 163.com  Thu Aug 23 01:46:58 2018
From: Caipenghui_c at 163.com (Caipenghui)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 23:46:58 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] A c program problem
In-Reply-To: <7912176e-5895-aaa3-f973-83f88b12f196@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4019d825.4b05.16561830adb.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <CAEoi9W4wUu6ZKUUVU=i5-ZnGjWAJuP3df7Hrc6v1yKOkf4BmUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5e35d6b8.513d.1656207b82c.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <4cc41edb.5155.1656209fbce.Coremail.caipenghui_c@163.com>
 <7912176e-5895-aaa3-f973-83f88b12f196@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <9487ADB3-CE4F-4011-84AD-506A5EB64D11@163.com>

On August 22, 2018 11:40:18 PM GMT+08:00, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> On 2018-08-22 10:29 AM, cc wrote:
> > I want to figure out if the book is right or the compiler is right.
> > 
> > 	
> > cc
> 
> 
> Donald and Dan identified the issue in earlier replies.
> 
> $ cc foo.c -o foo
> $ ./foo
> 5050
> $ cat foo.c
> #include <stdio.h>
> int main(void)
> {
>        int i, sum = 0;
>        i = 1;
>        while ( i <= 100) {
>        sum = sum + i;
>        i++;
>        }
>        printf("%d\n", sum);
>        return 0;
> }
> 
> --Toby

Thank you very much for pointing this out, and I'm thrilled. Thank you for your kind help.



From Caipenghui_c at 163.com  Thu Aug 23 01:36:13 2018
From: Caipenghui_c at 163.com (Caipenghui)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 23:36:13 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <CABH=_VRaKv-yn8VFXbxuUGN8=KeM-=_tNtBaoQGFQZsDesBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
 <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
 <20180822094452.73ca043f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CABH=_VRaKv-yn8VFXbxuUGN8=KeM-=_tNtBaoQGFQZsDesBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70B251DD-71B3-4418-9863-99B50D08C260@163.com>

On August 22, 2018 11:29:40 PM GMT+08:00, Paul Winalski 
< paul.winalski at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 8/22/18, Perry E. Metzger 
< perry at piermont.com> wrote:
>>
>> To my knowledge, object file formats still don't have information
>> about type signatures, and linkers still don't care about types. This
>> is actually a problem. It would probably prevent a lot of errors if
>> those things changed.
>
> For a linker to enforce (or warn about) type and call signature
> matching, it would have to know the type and call semantics of each
> particular language, and each particular compiler's switch options
> that allow the programmer to bend the language rules.  Not impossible,
> but a difficult and cumbersome problem, particularly as language and
> compiler implementation semantics vary over time.
>
> C++ and other strongly-typed languages typically hack around the
> problem using name decoration. Not elegant, but effective.
>
> Has anyone experimented with building Unix using C++, to take
> advantage of strong typing?  My guess is no--it would be a Herculean
> task likely to introduce more bugs than it would fix.
>
> -Paul W.

Well, I agree with you that this may be achieved in the future.



From g.branden.robinson at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 01:52:57 2018
From: g.branden.robinson at gmail.com (G. Branden Robinson)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 11:52:57 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <20180822114630.31557ebe@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
 <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
 <20180822094452.73ca043f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CABH=_VRaKv-yn8VFXbxuUGN8=KeM-=_tNtBaoQGFQZsDesBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180822114630.31557ebe@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <20180822155255.p6bxrezym2k4ygtl@crack.deadbeast.net>

At 2018-08-22T11:46:30-0400, Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 11:29:40 -0400 Paul Winalski
> <paul.winalski at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 8/22/18, Perry E. Metzger <perry at piermont.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > To my knowledge, object file formats still don't have information
> > > about type signatures, and linkers still don't care about types.
> > > This is actually a problem. It would probably prevent a lot of
> > > errors if those things changed.
> > 
> > For a linker to enforce (or warn about) type and call signature
> > matching, it would have to know the type and call semantics of each
> > particular language,
> 
> Not necessarily. One could produce a language-independent way of
> signaling what the type signatures are (perhaps with normalized
> language-dependent strings) and the linker could just check that they
> match.
> 
> I've seen several languages (like OCaml) hack around the lack of this
> by providing an auxiliary file for a pre-link phase to check off
> of. It would be nicer if the linker could just handle that.

My impression is that Ada's .ali (I haven't seen an official mnemonic,
but "Ada Link Information" seems likely) files provide this security.

-- 
Regards,
Branden
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 833 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180822/171e91de/attachment.sig>

From paul.winalski at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 01:56:29 2018
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 11:56:29 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <20180822114630.31557ebe@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
 <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
 <20180822094452.73ca043f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CABH=_VRaKv-yn8VFXbxuUGN8=KeM-=_tNtBaoQGFQZsDesBjjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180822114630.31557ebe@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VQy9dLLv8BY+FCcp3DTHUB4EzzFDxvnwtF9DNOjwsjVjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/22/18, Perry E. Metzger <perry at piermont.com> wrote:
>
> Not necessarily. One could produce a language-independent way of
> signaling what the type signatures are (perhaps with normalized
> language-dependent strings) and the linker could just check that they
> match.

True.  And the debugger people have already done the design work in
this area.  One could probably use DWARF to pass this info to a
linker.

> I've seen several languages (like OCaml) hack around the lack of this
> by providing an auxiliary file for a pre-link phase to check off
> of. It would be nicer if the linker could just handle that.

I'm pretty sure that is how VMS Ada solved the problem, too.

-Paul W.


From crossd at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 02:04:15 2018
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 12:04:15 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <20180822094452.73ca043f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
 <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
 <20180822094452.73ca043f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W70cNU3pL7eAOMe89G0EV3HFwqnjhEZ0JEqfFH1Ji-U1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 9:45 AM Perry E. Metzger <perry at piermont.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 16:37:43 -0500 Cornelius Keck <ckeck at texoma.net>
> wrote:
> > Early C-compilers didn't care much about prototypes. The default
> > return type of a function would be an int. It was up to the code's
> > author to pass the right (amount, order, type). The linker didn't
> > care about signatures as long as the symbol resolved.
>
> To my knowledge, object file formats still don't have information
> about type signatures, and linkers still don't care about types. This
> is actually a problem. It would probably prevent a lot of errors if
> those things changed.
>

One can embed type information in existing object file formats (e.g. ELF)
by placing it in dedicated sections. This is what Go does, for example. The
Go linker does some type analysis for reflection, though if symbols line up
it does not detect or prevent e.g. signature mismatches.

        - Dan C.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180822/98fad13e/attachment.html>

From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Thu Aug 23 08:00:15 2018
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 18:00:15 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
Message-ID: <201808222200.w7MM0FoO025334@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> Has anyone experimented with building Unix using C++, to take
advantage of strong typing?  My guess is no--it would be a Herculean
task likely to introduce more bugs than it would fix.

How Unix didn't get written in C++:

When Bjarne Stroustrup joined Bell Labs, he hoped to write an
operating system, but he wanted to do it in an object oriented
language, so he took a small detour to make an object-oriented
sibling of C. That turned out to be a maelstrom from which he
never escaped. 

Doug


From fair-tuhs at netbsd.org  Thu Aug 23 09:05:33 2018
From: fair-tuhs at netbsd.org (Erik E. Fair)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2018 16:05:33 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <201808222200.w7MM0FoO025334@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <28712.1534979133@cesium.clock.org>

I will never forget what dmr said in response to a question about C++ at a USENIX conference long ago:

"Bjarne and I have an agreement: I don't talk about C++, and he doesn't talk about 'old C'."


	Erik Fair


From ggm at algebras.org  Thu Aug 23 12:23:37 2018
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 12:23:37 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] About Unix header files
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W70cNU3pL7eAOMe89G0EV3HFwqnjhEZ0JEqfFH1Ji-U1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <88DDC574-96EA-4B3D-97A2-28157BF3B9D7@163.com>
 <20180821213743.4931661.91186.9539@texoma.net>
 <20180822094452.73ca043f@jabberwock.cb.piermont.com>
 <CAEoi9W70cNU3pL7eAOMe89G0EV3HFwqnjhEZ0JEqfFH1Ji-U1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn3CvRZpu0GwjkLHsHsQuXrAoPrrYFTe019Z3no7zNFBww@mail.gmail.com>

That Go decision feels like something which could be built upon.

I think this already moving off TUHS but none the less, looking
forward, the increase in strongly typed languages in use points to a
desire to preserve the type semantics so that inter-language linking
can maintain the promises (so to speak)

If Go has gone to marking the promises around types in a useful way, I
would be entirely cool if somebody smart in llvm said "oh, if you
layer your language compiler onto our STL and ISA model, our
intermediate code representation then ... " (I believe GHC
deliberately does this, and Frege targets the JVM similarly)

Smart people in small groups do huge things which have big
consequence. I am not a Go person, I tried and failed for purely
personal reasons. If Go takes the underlying abstract ideas and does
something other people can leverage, I would be very applauding. I
like that kind of outcome.

-G
On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 2:05 AM Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2018 at 9:45 AM Perry E. Metzger <perry at piermont.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 16:37:43 -0500 Cornelius Keck <ckeck at texoma.net>
>> wrote:
>> > Early C-compilers didn't care much about prototypes. The default
>> > return type of a function would be an int. It was up to the code's
>> > author to pass the right (amount, order, type). The linker didn't
>> > care about signatures as long as the symbol resolved.
>>
>> To my knowledge, object file formats still don't have information
>> about type signatures, and linkers still don't care about types. This
>> is actually a problem. It would probably prevent a lot of errors if
>> those things changed.
>
>
> One can embed type information in existing object file formats (e.g. ELF) by placing it in dedicated sections. This is what Go does, for example. The Go linker does some type analysis for reflection, though if symbols line up it does not detect or prevent e.g. signature mismatches.
>
>         - Dan C.
>


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Aug 24 00:42:40 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 10:42:40 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
Message-ID: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>


> Has anyone experimented with building Unix using C++, to take
> advantage of strong typing?  My guess is no--it would be a Herculean task
likely to introduce more bugs than it would fix.

I'm not sure what "strong typing" gain you expect to find.   With the
exception of the void* difference, C++ isn't much more "type strong" than C.
A lot of the type issues you can find on the Kernel just by turning up the
compiler warnings (or use lint).

The biggest issue we had was BSD didn't use void* at all.   Had they
converted pointers to void*, which is in implementation necessarily the same
as char*,
C would have done the right thing.   The problem is they did what I call
"Conversion by union."    They would store a char* into one element of a
union and read it out of another typed pointer.
This works fine for a VAX where all pointers are the same format, but fails
on word address machines (notably in our case the HEP where the target size
is encoded in the low order bits of the pointer).
Still, running around and fixing those was only a few hours work.

The DevSwitch is the beginnings of an object oriented philosophy.   Alas,
the original UNIX used it only for mapping major dev numbers to functions.
It got some later use for other things like multi filesystemsupport.

The scary supportability thing in the kernel, isn't so much typing, but the
failuer to "hide" implementation details of one part of the kernel from the
other.



From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 24 03:24:51 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:24:51 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PaOchRCvJCj=+Z8xOm5nPDdLEoE7GN-oUHmyHyqxA5qg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 10:43 AM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure what "strong typing" gain you expect to find.   With the
> exception of the void* difference, C++ isn't much more "type strong" than
> C.
> A lot of the type issues you can find on the Kernel just by turning up the
> compiler warnings (or use lint).
>
100% agree...



>
> The biggest issue we had was BSD didn't use void* at all.   Had they
> converted pointers to void*, which is in implementation necessarily the
> same
> as char*,
> C would have done the right thing.   The problem is they did what I call
> "Conversion by union."
>
I just put it as 'silent architectural assumptions' in system's
programming.   In Henry's 10 commandments, he referred to this as assuming
'all the world is a Vax.'  (today the assumption is all the world is
INTEL*64).


The DevSwitch is the beginnings of an object oriented philosophy.   Alas,
> the original UNIX used it only for mapping major dev numbers to functions.
> It got some later use for other things like multi filesystem
> support.
>
Fair enough -- again.  As much as I love BSD, I'm quick to knock it (and
now Linux) a few pegs for two issues in this light.  At the time, adding
something like the file system switch was engious and novel.   It took a
couple of different schemes in different UNIX kernels (Sun, Masscomp, Eight
edition and later System V) and then a couple of arguments on how to do
interposition to stack them to settle on the proper functions needed for
the FS, but eventually we mostly have them.   But that took years, we still
don't have something like the Locus vproc work for the process layer,
although it was added to Linux as well as BSD/Mach [Linux rejected it - see
the OpenSSI.org work].

To me, if we had done the same thing with the process layer that we did to
FS's we would be better off.  But the reason is off course the lack of an
indirection layer which object give you.




>
> The scary supportability thing in the kernel, isn't so much typing, but the
> failuer to "hide" implementation details of one part of the kernel from the
> other.
>
Again, I agree.  But this argument screams in favor of Dykstra THE style
layering (e.g. micro-kernel) approach.   I always thought it was a better
way to go, but in the end, people always picked pure performance over the
safety that "information hiding" gives you.

It's tough, I've been on both sides of this debate and have empathy for
both positions.   As a supplier, it is all about being as fast as possible,
because the customers don't care how hard you have to work, they just want
as much speed as possible (in fact the super computer folks would really
rather no OS at all).  So the 'less is more' monolithic / hack /
architectural specific ideas make a lot of sense.    But some of the things
we are talking about here are ideas that aid us in the development side on
making 'better' or 'cleaner' systems - ones that are more maintainable and
easier to ensure are 'correct' - which often the custom will not pay for,
or worse shun because it end up being a little slower.

Clem


ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180823/fca83a63/attachment.html>

From bakul at bitblocks.com  Fri Aug 24 06:21:39 2018
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 13:21:39 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>

On Aug 23, 2018, at 7:42 AM, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote:
> 
> The biggest issue we had was BSD didn't use void* at all.   Had they
> converted pointers to void*, which is in implementation necessarily the same
> as char*,
> C would have done the right thing.   The problem is they did what I call
> "Conversion by union."    They would store a char* into one element of a
> union and read it out of another typed pointer.

I haven't done much BSD kernel programming in last 15 years
but this is not my recollection. BSD used caddr_t, typedefed
to char*, sort of as void *. IIRC void* came in common use
after BSD unix first came about. Why use a union when a cast
will do? :-) The union trick is more likely to be used for
esoteric things (like getting at fl.pt. bytes) or for more
complex types or probably by people with lots of programming
experience in pascal and not so much in C (in Pascal you *had*
to use untagged variant records if you wanted to cheat!). In C,
all that void* does is allow you to avoid casts in some cases.

> This works fine for a VAX where all pointers are the same format, but fails
> on word address machines (notably in our case the HEP where the target size
> is encoded in the low order bits of the pointer).
> Still, running around and fixing those was only a few hours work.
> 
> The DevSwitch is the beginnings of an object oriented philosophy.   Alas,
> the original UNIX used it only for mapping major dev numbers to functions.
> It got some later use for other things like multi filesystemsupport.

{b,c}devsw are closer to an interface (or in C++ terminology 
an abstract class that contains nothing but pure virtual
functions). Go got it right.  I had to build something like
devsw for some IOT devices in Go and it worked very well. And
you don't need to manually stuff relevant functions in a
struct so that {bdev,cdev,line}sw can be properly initialized
as in C.
 
Not having this feature in C meant dev switches got a bit 
impure (in 4.xBSD there was only a buf ptr for bdevsw and a
tty ptr in cdesw).  In modern BSD the cdev struct contains all
sorts of cruft.
 
So in this sense C++ got it wrong, at least initially. Code 
for each disk or network device would be device specific but
in so far as possible we want to access devices of a specific
class the same way. Classical OO would not help here.

[Aside: What I would really like is if Go interfaces can be
somehow turned into abstract data types by adding an algebraic
specification. For example, at the source level you should
be able to say don't allow read/write once  device is closed.
Adding this sort of assertions/axioms at the interface level
can make your code less cluttered (no need to check at every
point if the device is still open) and safer (in case you forget
to check).]


> The scary supportability thing in the kernel, isn't so much typing, but the
> failuer to "hide" implementation details of one part of the kernel from the
> other.

Lack of modularity or more fine grained trust boundaries.
Apropos this point:

https://threatpost.com/researchers-blame-monolithic-linux-code-base-for-critical-vulnerabilities/136785/

  In an exhaustive study of critical Linux vulnerabilities, a 
  team of academic and government-backed researchers claim to
  have proven that almost all flaws could be mitigated to less
  than critical severity - and that 40 percent could be
  completely eliminated - with an OS design based on a
  verified microkernel. Though I tend to think the "verified"
  part doesn't play as strong a role as the modularization
  forced by microkernels.

[Ties in with the formal methods thread in here and in COFF!]





From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Aug 24 08:17:06 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 18:17:06 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>



> I haven't done much BSD kernel programming in last 15 years but this is
not my recollection. BSD used caddr_t, typedefed to char*, sort of as void
*. IIRC void* 
>came in common use after BSD unix first came about. Why use a union when a
cast will do? :-) The union trick is more likely to be used for esoteric
things 
> (like getting at fl.pt. bytes) or for more complex types or probably by
people with lots of programming experience in pascal and not so much in C
(in Pascal 
>you *had* to use untagged variant records if you wanted to cheat!). In C,
all that void* does is allow you to avoid casts in some cases.

Your recollections are certainly wrong.    I spent a lot of time tracing
down why the Kernel crashed doing I/O and traced it to this and spent a
while undoing it as I stated.
This union was right in the middle of the buf struct:

	union {
	    caddr_t b_addr;		/* low order core address */
	    int	*b_words;		/* words for clearing */
	    struct filsys *b_filsys;	/* superblocks */
	    struct dinode *b_dino;	/* ilist */
	    daddr_t *b_daddr;		/* indirect block */
	} b_un;
There were a number of other places that did the same thing.   It's
OFFICIALLY now in undefined behavior by the standard (though of course that
didn't exist in the BSD days) ,
to store in one element of the union and retrieve it via another.   This is
one of the reasons why.

This isn't the only place it occurs.

Void* came out with the V7 compiler, if I recall properly.   The BSD kernel
looks as if it requires such a later compiler (it uses bit fields which the
earlier compilers didn't support).
But it doesn't matter.   You are right char* (or caddr_t) would work just
fine for this albeit with some explicit casting.




From nevin at eviloverlord.com  Fri Aug 24 08:28:44 2018
From: nevin at eviloverlord.com (Nevin Liber)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 17:28:44 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAGg_6+PY70t3t4x2J7uapn9E1LodtGZhcqRavtM2ve89B97byg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 5:17 PM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> This union was right in the middle of the buf struct:
>
>         union {
>             caddr_t b_addr;             /* low order core address */
>             int *b_words;               /* words for clearing */
>             struct filsys *b_filsys;    /* superblocks */
>             struct dinode *b_dino;      /* ilist */
>             daddr_t *b_daddr;           /* indirect block */
>         } b_un;
> There were a number of other places that did the same thing.   It's
> OFFICIALLY now in undefined behavior by the standard (though of course that
> didn't exist in the BSD days) ,
> to store in one element of the union and retrieve it via another.


It was still kinda frowned upon in K&R1:  "It is the responsibility of the
programmer to keep track of what type is currently stored in a union; the
results are machine dependent if something is stored as one type and
extracted as another."
-- 
 Nevin ":-)" Liber  <mailto:nevin at eviloverlord.com>  +1-847-691-1404
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180823/acc02fb7/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 24 08:48:13 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 18:48:13 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <CAGg_6+PY70t3t4x2J7uapn9E1LodtGZhcqRavtM2ve89B97byg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAGg_6+PY70t3t4x2J7uapn9E1LodtGZhcqRavtM2ve89B97byg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Ogy0Nnvi+85EER7PWQKfD-aLRkfxgMCpSKmrE7vWekEw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 6:29 PM Nevin Liber <nevin at eviloverlord.com> wrote:

> It was still kinda frowned upon in K&R1:  "It is the responsibility of the
> programmer to keep track of what type is currently stored in a union; the
> results are machine dependent if something is stored as one type and
> extracted as another."
>

No.  It was not frowned upon, it was widely used.  The message was just
just Dennis and Brian giving you fair warning. Remember K&R1 came out
approx the same time as 7th edition [I saw the proofs for the book with
UNIX/TS which was a little earlier, but pretty much the same kernel].

>From V7th editions buf.h (which I show a date of May 5, 1979) and Ron is
correct void*, caddr_t, daddr_t, dev_t and the like; were all 7th
edition-isms that BSD picked up)
...
struct buf
{
        int     b_flags;                /* see defines below */
        struct  buf *b_forw;            /* headed by d_tab of conf.c */
        struct  buf *b_back;            /*  "  */
        struct  buf *av_forw;           /* position on free list, */
        struct  buf *av_back;           /*     if not BUSY*/
        dev_t   b_dev;                  /* major+minor device name */
        unsigned b_bcount;              /* transfer count */
        union {
            caddr_t b_addr;             /* low order core address */
            int *b_words;               /* words for clearing */
            struct filsys *b_filsys;    /* superblocks */
            struct dinode *b_dino;      /* ilist */ls -l buf.h
            daddr_t *b_daddr;           /* indirect block */
        } b_un;
        daddr_t b_blkno;                /* block # on device */
        char    b_xmem;                 /* high order core address */
        char    b_error;                /* returned after I/O */
        unsigned int b_resid;           /* words not transferred after
error */
};
...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180823/11a9c7a0/attachment.html>

From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Fri Aug 24 09:14:13 2018
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 01:14:13 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <20180823231413.QeahD%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

ron at ronnatalie.com wrote in <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>:
  ...
 |This union was right in the middle of the buf struct:
 |
 | union {
 |     caddr_t b_addr;          /* low order core address */
 |     int      *b_words;               /* words for clearing */
 |     struct filsys *b_filsys; /* superblocks */
 |     struct dinode *b_dino;   /* ilist */
 |     daddr_t *b_daddr;                /* indirect block */
 |} b_un;
 |There were a number of other places that did the same thing.   It's
 |OFFICIALLY now in undefined behavior by the standard (though of course that
 |didn't exist in the BSD days) ,
 |to store in one element of the union and retrieve it via another.   This is
 |one of the reasons why.

Luckily "type punning" is possible.  Ach, what do i know;
nonetheless, i think it is a terrible direction that C goes to,
now you often need memcpy() to local storage instead of a simple
assignment (with a cast) in order to avoid undefined behaviour
that allows compilers to do bad things.  On a NetBSD list there
was a link to such a story not too long ago, the resulting
C standard compliant code was ridiculous, the last string of fun
has been screwed out of C.  Unfortunately i have not saved the
message, but Christos Zoulas has been the author.

Regarding "type punning" the standard C 2011 says (6.5.2.3)

  If the member used to read the contents of a union object is not
  the same as the member last used to store a value in the object,
  the appropriate part of the object representation of the value
  is reinterpreted as an object representation in the new type as
  described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called ‘‘type
  punning’’). This might be a trap representation.

This has not changed in C 2018 (though i have only version 2017
ballot).  So as long as the type sizes are identical anything
should be fine.  Just as you say.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Aug 24 09:29:36 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 19:29:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
Message-ID: <20180823232936.8F04818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Ron Natalie

    > The BSD kernel looks as if it requires such a later compiler (it uses
    > bit fields which the earlier compilers didn't support).

Umm, minor nit: bit fields were added to/as of 'Typesetter C', which I gather
was intermediate between V6 and V7.

	Noel


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Aug 24 09:42:19 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 19:42:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <20180823232936.8F04818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180823232936.8F04818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <160c01d43b3a$ef02ff40$cd08fdc0$@ronnatalie.com>

Void probably showed up their first as well    It was more like modern C
than the V6 compiler.

-----Original Message-----
From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 7:30 PM
To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel

    > From: Ron Natalie

    > The BSD kernel looks as if it requires such a later compiler (it uses
    > bit fields which the earlier compilers didn't support).

Umm, minor nit: bit fields were added to/as of 'Typesetter C', which I
gather was intermediate between V6 and V7.

	Noel



From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 24 10:30:19 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 20:30:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <160c01d43b3a$ef02ff40$cd08fdc0$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <20180823232936.8F04818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <160c01d43b3a$ef02ff40$cd08fdc0$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PR5eQ7bjod9dKWf7tk55TaqQb3p8rR7saQxCEEMM3UeA@mail.gmail.com>

Yep.  Im pretty sure I remember void being in typesetter C also.   IIRC the
differences between that version of Dennis’s compiler and what was included
in 7th Edition was mostly in the libraries ie stdio was first released as
part of the typesetter compiler but it was still a work in progress.

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 7:42 PM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> Void probably showed up their first as well    It was more like modern C
> than the V6 compiler.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 7:30 PM
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
>
>     > From: Ron Natalie
>
>     > The BSD kernel looks as if it requires such a later compiler (it uses
>     > bit fields which the earlier compilers didn't support).
>
> Umm, minor nit: bit fields were added to/as of 'Typesetter C', which I
> gather was intermediate between V6 and V7.
>
>         Noel
>
> --
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180823/4732197a/attachment.html>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Aug 24 11:27:30 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 21:27:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
Message-ID: <20180824012730.5945A18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Clem Cole

    > Im pretty sure I remember void being in typesetter C also.

Hmm. In the two original 'help' files I have about the changes to C (the term
'typesetter C' doesn't appear, but it's pretty clear that's what the subject
is), available through here:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/Typesetter_C

the term 'void' does not appear (although most other stuff - e.g. unions, bit
fields, typedef, yadda yadda - does).

    Noel


From bakul at bitblocks.com  Fri Aug 24 11:41:19 2018
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 18:41:19 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <4130AFB4-1740-46BC-AA98-F9D01549049C@bitblocks.com>



> On Aug 23, 2018, at 3:17 PM, <ron at ronnatalie.com> <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> I haven't done much BSD kernel programming in last 15 years but this is
> not my recollection. BSD used caddr_t, typedefed to char*, sort of as void
> *. IIRC void* 
>> came in common use after BSD unix first came about. Why use a union when a
> cast will do? :-) The union trick is more likely to be used for esoteric
> things 
>> (like getting at fl.pt. bytes) or for more complex types or probably by
> people with lots of programming experience in pascal and not so much in C
> (in Pascal 
>> you *had* to use untagged variant records if you wanted to cheat!). In C,
> all that void* does is allow you to avoid casts in some cases.
> 
> Your recollections are certainly wrong.    I spent a lot of time tracing
> down why the Kernel crashed doing I/O and traced it to this and spent a
> while undoing it as I stated.
> This union was right in the middle of the buf struct:
> 
> 	union {
> 	    caddr_t b_addr;		/* low order core address */
> 	    int	*b_words;		/* words for clearing */
> 	    struct filsys *b_filsys;	/* superblocks */
> 	    struct dinode *b_dino;	/* ilist */
> 	    daddr_t *b_daddr;		/* indirect block */
> 	} b_un;
> There were a number of other places that did the same thing.   It's
> OFFICIALLY now in undefined behavior by the standard (though of course that
> didn't exist in the BSD days) ,
> to store in one element of the union and retrieve it via another.   This is
> one of the reasons why.

Note that this is a legitimate use of union. That is,
unless I misunderstood what you meant by it, there is
no "conversion by union" as you call it or "cheating"
as I call it or type punning. There is no put one thing
in and take another thing out. Now it may be that
someone misused such a union. This is easy to do as,
unlike Pascal, C has no tagged variant record & it is
user's responsibility to use it right.

> 
> This isn't the only place it occurs.
> 
> Void* came out with the V7 compiler, if I recall properly.   The BSD kernel
> looks as if it requires such a later compiler (it uses bit fields which the
> earlier compilers didn't support).

From what I recall {c,m,re}alloc() returned a char*, not a void *.
I don't have K&R1 handy at the moment so can't recall if void* was
mentioned in the book (if not, that could be one reason for a lack of
its use).

From crossd at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 11:58:43 2018
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 21:58:43 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W7EhwTdJSpYLyoz5rEGUWuRTdEpB9LyZVMuLoY7W=rkdg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 6:17 PM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> [snip]
>
> Void* came out with the V7 compiler, if I recall properly.   The BSD kernel
> looks as if it requires such a later compiler (it uses bit fields which the
> earlier compilers didn't support).
> But it doesn't matter.   You are right char* (or caddr_t) would work just
> fine for this albeit with some explicit casting.
>

This appears to be incorrect, unfortunately. I just tested on the PDP-11/70
running 7th Edition at the Living Computer Museum (I've got an account
there) and it appears that neither `cc` nor `pcc` understand `void`.

Perhaps Steve Johnson can chime in on this? I suspect he'd know the history
here well.

        - Dan C.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180823/485402df/attachment.html>

From bakul at bitblocks.com  Fri Aug 24 12:05:19 2018
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 19:05:19 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PR5eQ7bjod9dKWf7tk55TaqQb3p8rR7saQxCEEMM3UeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180823232936.8F04818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <160c01d43b3a$ef02ff40$cd08fdc0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2PR5eQ7bjod9dKWf7tk55TaqQb3p8rR7saQxCEEMM3UeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7A7BA7E4-8854-4744-B3B0-9C83D061FB64@bitblocks.com>

In Henry Spencer's v7 sources there is a "struct void" in
cmd/sh/mode.h -- may have to do Bourne's fascination with
Algol68!

Bitfields were available but they were not used in v7 sources.
May be because v7 pcc generated slow code for bitfields access.
[Gosling's emacs used bitfields extensively. I managed to
compile it but it ran extremely slowly on a 5.6Mhz Fortune
box. That was the main reason I didn't switch to emacs. Then
Yost brought along the Rand editor and I used it until it
would no longer compile on *BSDs.]

> On Aug 23, 2018, at 5:30 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> Yep.  Im pretty sure I remember void being in typesetter C also.   IIRC the differences between that version of Dennis’s compiler and what was included in 7th Edition was mostly in the libraries ie stdio was first released as part of the typesetter compiler but it was still a work in progress.   
> 
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 7:42 PM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
> Void probably showed up their first as well    It was more like modern C
> than the V6 compiler.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2018 7:30 PM
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
> 
>     > From: Ron Natalie
> 
>     > The BSD kernel looks as if it requires such a later compiler (it uses
>     > bit fields which the earlier compilers didn't support).
> 
> Umm, minor nit: bit fields were added to/as of 'Typesetter C', which I
> gather was intermediate between V6 and V7.
> 
>         Noel
> 
> -- 
> Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual



From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 24 12:52:24 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 22:52:24 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <20180824012730.5945A18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180824012730.5945A18C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <DC7AB6CC-BC48-43DA-8595-2B98A1EA49EC@ccc.com>

As I said I’m not sure but I thought I remember them being there.  I no longer have that distribution tape so I cannot diff it.  

If i recall the order the three Ritchie compilers we had that supported stdio were typesetter, Unix/TS and then finally 7th Edition.  I remember they we all slightly different but don’t remember what they the differences were.  

As Steve has previously said Dennis was constantly improving the compiler, so I suspect it was just the state of the world when those snapshots were taken.  

The big changes to the language were between 6th Edition and Typesetter which were done in concert if not to support Brian’s work on the troff rewrite.  Plus the first draft of book was being written around then also. 

The book definitely predates 7th edition’s release which I date because we did not get Seventh Edition until spring 79 and Ted had xeroxgraphic copies of the book at least a year earlier, which was when we were running TS which he had brought from the Labs.  

Clem

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

On Aug 23, 2018, at 9:27 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:

>> From: Clem Cole
> 
>> Im pretty sure I remember void being in typesetter C also.
> 
> Hmm. In the two original 'help' files I have about the changes to C (the term
> 'typesetter C' doesn't appear, but it's pretty clear that's what the subject
> is), available through here:
> 
>  http://gunkies.org/wiki/Typesetter_C
> 
> the term 'void' does not appear (although most other stuff - e.g. unions, bit
> fields, typedef, yadda yadda - does).
> 
>    Noel


From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 24 13:04:59 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 23:04:59 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W7EhwTdJSpYLyoz5rEGUWuRTdEpB9LyZVMuLoY7W=rkdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAEoi9W7EhwTdJSpYLyoz5rEGUWuRTdEpB9LyZVMuLoY7W=rkdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0889FBDD-A68B-4062-AF63-EBF4CAB17F8A@ccc.com>

Interesting. Void is missing, not just void*? At one point void worked but the void * idiom was buggy/missing    

The problem I have is the compiler was changing in small ways with each version and the differences run together 


Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Aug 23, 2018, at 9:58 PM, Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 6:17 PM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>> [snip]
>> 
>> Void* came out with the V7 compiler, if I recall properly.   The BSD kernel
>> looks as if it requires such a later compiler (it uses bit fields which the
>> earlier compilers didn't support).
>> But it doesn't matter.   You are right char* (or caddr_t) would work just
>> fine for this albeit with some explicit casting.
> 
> This appears to be incorrect, unfortunately. I just tested on the PDP-11/70 running 7th Edition at the Living Computer Museum (I've got an account there) and it appears that neither `cc` nor `pcc` understand `void`.
> 
> Perhaps Steve Johnson can chime in on this? I suspect he'd know the history here well.
> 
>         - Dan C.
> 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180823/71b1a36b/attachment.html>

From arnold at skeeve.com  Fri Aug 24 17:02:51 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 01:02:51 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers
Message-ID: <201808240702.w7O72pJT005068@freefriends.org>

My two cents, ...

> From: Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>
> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 20:30:19 -0400
> To: ron at ronnatalie.com
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
>
> Yep.  Im pretty sure I remember void being in typesetter C also.   IIRC the
> differences between that version of Dennis???s compiler and what was included
> in 7th Edition was mostly in the libraries ie stdio was first released as
> part of the typesetter compiler but it was still a work in progress.

K&R 1 did not have void or structure assignment. Those came later,
although I'm not sure when.  They may have been mentioned in an
appendix; my copy isn't handy to check.

At what point did each struct become its own namespace? I think
around the time of K&R1.

> From: Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com>
> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 22:52:24 -0400
> To: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
>
> ...
>
> The big changes to the language were between 6th Edition and Typesetter
> which were done in concert if not to support Brian???s work on the troff
> rewrite.  Plus the first draft of book was being written around then also.

The troff rewrite was later, circa '81 or so. Definitely NOT in the
V6/V7 timeframe.

Arnold


From pnr at planet.nl  Fri Aug 24 17:30:36 2018
From: pnr at planet.nl (Paul Ruizendaal)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 09:30:36 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
Message-ID: <5290661A-37D5-4BCF-A38F-CA8F7B947F55@planet.nl>

> Perhaps Steve Johnson can chime in on this? I suspect he'd know the history
> here well.

The origins of void were discussed 4-7 nov 2017 on this list.




From steve at quintile.net  Fri Aug 24 20:03:22 2018
From: steve at quintile.net (Steve Simon)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 11:03:22 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] compiler checking types
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1535076002.6925.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <mailman.1.1535076002.6925.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <53DA0313-86AC-4A0D-BB0E-35EDA3729966@quintile.net>

At the risk of being boring, Ken thompson’s portable c compiler on plan9 checks types.

-Steve




From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Aug 24 20:41:36 2018
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 11:41:36 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <4130AFB4-1740-46BC-AA98-F9D01549049C@bitblocks.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <4130AFB4-1740-46BC-AA98-F9D01549049C@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <0b4dd231-93f5-dbf2-fe5c-42b4a3fb464d@dunnington.plus.com>

On 24/08/2018 02:41, Bakul Shah wrote:

>From what I recall {c,m,re}alloc() returned a char*, not a void *. > I don't have K&R1 handy at the moment so can't recall if void* was
> mentioned in the book (if not, that could be one reason for a lack of
> its use).

Yes, K&R1 specifically states that alloc(n) returns a char* (page 97), 
calloc(n, sizeof(obj)) returns a pointer to whatever type you specify 
(page 157), and void isn't mentioned anywhere in the book that I can see.

-- 
Pete
Pete Turnbull


From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 24 22:00:22 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 08:00:22 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers
In-Reply-To: <201808240702.w7O72pJT005068@freefriends.org>
References: <201808240702.w7O72pJT005068@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <EA462C91-DBEE-45A6-9741-E14D6EEBD28C@ccc.com>

Arnold, I caution on absolutes.   Typesetter C predates V7.  It was for V6 but a release of ditroff  may have been after V7. - do remember something like that in the early 80s.  What I do not remember the order of which compilers.  The driver for writing ditroff was the Labs getting an APS5 typesetter which was in the late 70s.  

And (I’m less) certain here, I think Bourne once told me they used the APS5 for the V7 manual set masters because it supported more fonts.   

Btw. The whole reason why typesetter C had a compiler included was the v6 compiler was not insufficient (primarily missing support for stdio) but V7 was not.  

That said the dates and some of the ordering are fuzzy in my mind at this point.  I’m trying to use other things that I have absolute dates for and trying line them up.   

We had V5, quickly upgraded the V6, then TS and finally V7.  I left in late Spring ‘79.   That order I know is right and Ted was the reason we had TS as he brought it with him in 76 / 77.  (Same for the proofs for K&R1).   

We got typesetter C at some point I thought before Ted brought TS but that’s fuzzy.  

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Aug 24, 2018, at 3:02 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> My two cents, ...
> 
>> From: Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>
>> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 20:30:19 -0400
>> To: ron at ronnatalie.com
>> Subject: Re: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
>> 
>> Yep.  Im pretty sure I remember void being in typesetter C also.   IIRC the
>> differences between that version of Dennis???s compiler and what was included
>> in 7th Edition was mostly in the libraries ie stdio was first released as
>> part of the typesetter compiler but it was still a work in progress.
> 
> K&R 1 did not have void or structure assignment. Those came later,
> although I'm not sure when.  They may have been mentioned in an
> appendix; my copy isn't handy to check.
> 
> At what point did each struct become its own namespace? I think
> around the time of K&R1.
> 
>> From: Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com>
>> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 22:52:24 -0400
>> To: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>> Subject: Re: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
>> 
>> ...
>> 
>> The big changes to the language were between 6th Edition and Typesetter
>> which were done in concert if not to support Brian???s work on the troff
>> rewrite.  Plus the first draft of book was being written around then also.
> 
> The troff rewrite was later, circa '81 or so. Definitely NOT in the
> V6/V7 timeframe.
> 
> Arnold


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Aug 24 22:17:52 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 08:17:52 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <4130AFB4-1740-46BC-AA98-F9D01549049C@bitblocks.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <4130AFB4-1740-46BC-AA98-F9D01549049C@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <1d5901d43ba4$7bc413b0$734c3b10$@ronnatalie.com>

>> 	union {
>> 	    caddr_t b_addr;		/* low order core address */
>> 	    int	*b_words;		/* words for clearing */
>> 	    struct filsys *b_filsys;	/* superblocks */
>> 	    struct dinode *b_dino;	/* ilist */
>> 	    daddr_t *b_daddr;		/* indirect block */
>> 	} b_un;

>  Note that this is a legitimate use of union. That is, unless I
misunderstood what you meant by it, there is no "conversion by union" as you
call it or "cheating"
> as I call it or type punning. There is no put one thing in and take
another thing out. Now it may be that someone misused such a union. This is
easy to do as, unlike Pascal, C has no tagged variant record & it is user's
responsibility to use it right.

It's not legitimate.   It's undefined behavior in the standards and as
someone has already posted, Ritchie warned about the issue at the time.
It is undefined (currently) or in the past (machine dependent) behavior  to
store in one element of a union and retrieve it by another.

For instance:
       int x;
       daddr_t* y;

      u.b_un.b_words = &x;
      y = u.b_un.b_daddr;

This is syntactically correct, but the code will blow up bizarrely on
machines where the int* and long* pointers are not in the same format. 
Now if the datatype was a void* and we did this:

      u.b_vp = & x;
      y = u.b_vp;

Provided there weren't any alignment issues, this would work as the
conversion to and from void* would result in the right pointer value.

I can think of three different machines I've worked on that this is a
problem.   The Delelcor HEP was the one I got caught on because I was
porting 4.2BSD to it.
The Univac (er, um, Sperry) 1100 series and I think the DEC10 by derivation
have the partial word (i.e., anything less than a full 36 bits) encoded in
the pointers.
The Crays (being word addressed machines, character types are "simulated")
have distinct word and char pointers.

void* has to be format the same as char* (don't get me started on this
idiocy, while it worked for the PDP-11, it's an inane assumption that the
basic character type is the same as
the smallest addressable storage unit.    THIS is one of the things that
should have been fixed about the time void* was conceived).




From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Aug 24 22:21:20 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 08:21:20 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PR5eQ7bjod9dKWf7tk55TaqQb3p8rR7saQxCEEMM3UeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180823232936.8F04818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <160c01d43b3a$ef02ff40$cd08fdc0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2PR5eQ7bjod9dKWf7tk55TaqQb3p8rR7saQxCEEMM3UeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1d8d01d43ba4$f7a3f5e0$e6ebe1a0$@ronnatalie.com>



> Yep.  Im pretty sure I remember void being in typesetter C also.   IIRC the differences between that version of Dennis’s compiler and what was included in 7th Edition was mostly in the libraries ie stdio was first released as part of the typesetter compiler but it was still a work in progress.   

My biggest recollection was the beginning of flipping =+ to += (It supported both but warned you about the former), and fixing the structure elements to not be global.

Lots of odd quirks in the kernel due to early C limitations.    PS->integ always has a fond part of my memory.
	



From dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org  Fri Aug 24 23:22:44 2018
From: dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org (Derek Fawcus)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 14:22:44 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <20180824132244.GA2979@accordion.employees.org>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 10:42:40AM -0400, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote:
> 
> > Has anyone experimented with building Unix using C++, to take
> > advantage of strong typing?  My guess is no--it would be a Herculean task
> likely to introduce more bugs than it would fix.

I recall that there was an attempt to do this with the Linux kernel,
but that it was abandoned before it was completed, this would have
been pre '98. Probably pre 2.4 Kernel.

I have vague memories of discussions about it on the (kernel) mailing
list at the time, and that it was the original cause of the 'asmlinkage'
annotation on the C level syscalls - basically to turn off C++ name
mangling for when the assembler syscall table referenced the C routines.

DF


From jaapna at xs4all.nl  Fri Aug 24 23:50:02 2018
From: jaapna at xs4all.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 15:50:02 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers (Typesetter C)
In-Reply-To: <EA462C91-DBEE-45A6-9741-E14D6EEBD28C@ccc.com>
References: <201808240702.w7O72pJT005068@freefriends.org>
 <EA462C91-DBEE-45A6-9741-E14D6EEBD28C@ccc.com>
Message-ID: <EA1907EA-8B77-4A90-88C1-08976C2C7D0E@xs4all.nl>


I'm not sure who did, but I've been told that when troff was rewritten from assembler to C, the compiler needed some rework and thus typesetter C was born.

	jaap

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 267 bytes
Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180824/2d344d24/attachment.sig>

From crossd at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 00:01:26 2018
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 10:01:26 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <0889FBDD-A68B-4062-AF63-EBF4CAB17F8A@ccc.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAEoi9W7EhwTdJSpYLyoz5rEGUWuRTdEpB9LyZVMuLoY7W=rkdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0889FBDD-A68B-4062-AF63-EBF4CAB17F8A@ccc.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W7qAmsh72q+Q-3om7s8cS1JC9KhckepLVj1zCL4beuC2A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 11:05 PM Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> Interesting. Void is missing, not just void*? At one point void worked but
> the void * idiom was buggy/missing
>

Correct. Neither cc nor pcc on 7th edition will accept:

void
sideeffect()
{
        printf("Hi\n");
}

As far as I can tell, both are treating `void` in this short program as an
identifier. The string "void" doesn't appear in the sources for either
compiler.

The problem I have is the compiler was changing in small ways with each
> version and the differences run together
>

It's my subjective impression, based largely on what I read here on TUHS,
that there was quite a lot of activity and cross-pollination in and out of
Bell Labs at the time, so I'm not surprised that the details here are fuzzy.

        - Dan C.

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not
> quite.
>
> On Aug 23, 2018, at 9:58 PM, Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 6:17 PM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Void* came out with the V7 compiler, if I recall properly.   The BSD
>> kernel
>> looks as if it requires such a later compiler (it uses bit fields which
>> the
>> earlier compilers didn't support).
>> But it doesn't matter.   You are right char* (or caddr_t) would work just
>> fine for this albeit with some explicit casting.
>>
>
> This appears to be incorrect, unfortunately. I just tested on the
> PDP-11/70 running 7th Edition at the Living Computer Museum (I've got an
> account there) and it appears that neither `cc` nor `pcc` understand `void`.
>
> Perhaps Steve Johnson can chime in on this? I suspect he'd know the
> history here well.
>
>         - Dan C.
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180824/7a449b47/attachment.html>

From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Sat Aug 25 00:13:48 2018
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 16:13:48 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <20180823231413.QeahD%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <20180823231413.QeahD%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <20180824141348.1NLUE%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Steffen Nurpmeso wrote in <20180823231413.QeahD%steffen at sdaoden.eu>:
 |ron at ronnatalie.com wrote in <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.\
 |com>:
  ...
 ||This union was right in the middle of the buf struct:
  ...
 ||
 || union {
 ||     caddr_t b_addr;          /* low order core address */
 ||     int      *b_words;               /* words for clearing */
 ||     struct filsys *b_filsys; /* superblocks */
 ||     struct dinode *b_dino;   /* ilist */
 ||     daddr_t *b_daddr;                /* indirect block */
 ||} b_un;
 ||There were a number of other places that did the same thing.   It's
 ||OFFICIALLY now in undefined behavior by the standard (though of course \
 ||that
 ||didn't exist in the BSD days) ,
 ||to store in one element of the union and retrieve it via another. \
 ||  This is
 ||one of the reasons why.
 |
 |Luckily "type punning" is possible.  Ach, what do i know;
 |nonetheless, i think it is a terrible direction that C goes to,
 |now you often need memcpy() to local storage instead of a simple
 |assignment (with a cast) in order to avoid undefined behaviour
 |that allows compilers to do bad things.  On a NetBSD list there
 |was a link to such a story not too long ago, the resulting
 |C standard compliant code was ridiculous, the last string of fun
 |has been screwed out of C.  Unfortunately i have not saved the
 |message, but Christos Zoulas has been the author.

I have found the link in the history of my browser, the story was

  http://pzemtsov.github.io/2016/11/06/bug-story-alignment-on-x86.html

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Sat Aug 25 00:32:05 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 10:32:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <20180824141348.1NLUE%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <20180823231413.QeahD%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20180824141348.1NLUE%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <1f6201d43bb7$3b9ebde0$b2dc39a0$@ronnatalie.com>

That's a different issue (as I alluded to in my post).   Alignment on
machines is a different problem.   Type "punning" isn't the problem, the
compiler is propely converting one
pointer type to another but the operand is not correctly aligned.   

In the case I'm referring to, the Univac and the HEP encode partial word
sizes in the pointer.    If you take the literal bits from one pointer to
another (as if you stored it in a union),
then you end up referring to the wrong sized operand in the subsequent
operation.    Had you converted it to void* or explicitly forced a
conversion wih the cast, the compiler 
would have taken care of converting the pointer for you.

It's very odd when you find the machine storing the WRONG SIZE operand from
the pointer type in use.
As I said, it wasn't hard to fix (just grep for all the afflicted unions),
but it took a bit of long kernel debug sessions to figure out what was
happening.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen at sdaoden.eu>
> I have found the link in the history of my browser, the story was
> 
>   http://pzemtsov.github.io/2016/11/06/bug-story-alignment-on-x86.html
> 





From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Aug 25 00:53:17 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 10:53:17 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Details and Dates (was C++ / Kernel)
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MWbEFiWB0fT9urh+xCzYAupq_-BDydp5nwdqiFaQMPKA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 10:02 AM Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's my subjective impression, based largely on what I read here on TUHS,
> that there was quite a lot of activity and cross-pollination in and out of
> Bell Labs at the time, so I'm not surprised that the details here are fuzzy.
>
Amen -
The Ritchie compiler
in particular, as well as
the Research Kernel
and BSD
releases
are examples a continuous development and express
specific
points in time.
The *people and thus knowledge were fluid* (*a.k.a.* 'open source ;-) and
features within the system followed the people.

The reasons, order and local politics for many things are sometimes
forgotten.   Different actions feed back and forth and things get cloudy in
the history.   For instance, while people give BSD credit for the Unix
networking because it was widely released with BSD 4.2 and 4.3 as the
vehicle, it was actually BBN did the original IP and TCP stack that Eric
Cooper added to 4.1 and Joy would eventually create sockets in 4.1A.   All
of MIT with ChaosNet, UofI and Rand's work on the ArpaNet NCP predates that
work and was used by BBN -- as did the 3Com UNET code for V7, much less
things like Rashid's Accent work, Mike Malcom and Cheridon's Thoth and
later V Kernel.

This
 is why I try to use other information that we can precisely date, as well
as constants like trying code on old V7 releases like Dan just did.  To me
'other information' is like when some of us matriculated at which schools
or moved jobs,  *i.e.* when Ted show up at CMU for his original OYOC year,
Noel's time in Tech Sq, me at CMU or UCB,
the summer the V6 patch tape
'accidentally' found its way to the Arpanet

community can be dated by
Ken's trip to California/visit to see Chesson who was finishing up at UofI
;
 or big outside actions like the need to support
to big unmovable
(and thus otherwise datable) items such as
the APS5 or addition of the Vax VM support at UCB
, dvk and my going on strike to force CMU to get a commercial Unix license
summer of '78, when UCB got its own C70 IMP instead of the VDHI to LBL for
Ing70; *etc*
.
  Dates of different USENIX conferences, which were were a lot of ideas
(and code) moved back and forth.

Clem
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180824/6267bffb/attachment.html>

From web at loomcom.com  Sat Aug 25 01:13:36 2018
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 08:13:36 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
Message-ID: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>

After the past several years of focusing on 3B2 preservation and emulation, I've begun to wonder whether 3B2 hardware was used very much inside of Bell Labs. Has anyone ever heard whether Research UNIX was ever ported to the WE32100? I've certainly never seen anything that would suggest it was, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com


From ches at cheswick.com  Sat Aug 25 01:23:40 2018
From: ches at cheswick.com (William Cheswick)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 11:23:40 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <24449BF9-646A-4E35-9898-AEFC2560555C@cheswick.com>

I never saw it. I believe the answer is no. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 24, 2018, at 11:13 AM, Seth Morabito <web at loomcom.com> wrote:
> 
> After the past several years of focusing on 3B2 preservation and emulation, I've begun to wonder whether 3B2 hardware was used very much inside of Bell Labs. Has anyone ever heard whether Research UNIX was ever ported to the WE32100? I've certainly never seen anything that would suggest it was, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
> 
> -Seth
> -- 
>  Seth Morabito
>  Poulsbo, WA
>  web at loomcom.com



From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Aug 25 02:06:22 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 12:06:22 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 11:13 AM Seth Morabito <web at loomcom.com> wrote:

> ...
> I've begun to wonder whether 3B2 hardware was used very much inside of
> Bell Labs.
>
I'd be curious to hear of people that actually used it.  AT&T forced you to
buy one with SVR3 as the porting base (I'd have never had bought the one we
had a Stellar otherwise).
The only time I ever knew anyone run one, was to check to see the behavior
of some code/validation testing of RFS *etc*...

The HW as pretty slow/inflexible compared to 68020/68030 which came out
around the same time, so it was just not interesting - *i.e.* 'JAWS' - Just
another work station' and it did not have a display.  IIRC, it was a server
and pretty inflexible in the I/O subsystem for that use.
Sun would quickly produce the first Sparcs, which as Larry has pointed out,
kicked butt
and were cheaper
.   The MIPS chip would emerge
with lots of designs,
and for that matter the 040 and the 386 would appear soon their after
, too.

I've always felt that the 3Bx series was an example of fighting the
previous war; other than 3B4000 (which had high reliability but other
issues in practice to use it), there was never anything that made them
special - compared to everyone else.

The only 'successful' product
that I
can
remember that used the WE32100
was the
second version (*a.k.a.* product version) of the Blit (Bart's first version
was 68000 IIRC).  Does anyone know of another product?  I think I was told
the 5ESS
changed
 the SLICs
design
from the original 68000 design to WE32100 but I was no
longer associated with anyone working on it by then, so I don't know.

Dennis once remarked to a couple of us that the WE32100 was an example of
AT&T wanting to make sure it had its own recipe to make processors, but it
was not clear it was worth it.   BTW: around the same time both AT&T and HP
were making their own DRAM too.  It was common thinking in management at
tech companies - telling folks that they needed to be 'vertically
integrated.'  But in the case of both HP and AT&T there internally produced
DRAM chips cost 2-3 times what the merchant market cost; so besides the
investment in the fab (which was huge) it was a pretty expensive insurance
policy.

That said, this was also the end times for the idea of the 'second
source.'   Chip manufacturers would be required to license their designs to
some one else (for instance AMD was originally Intel's second source).   I
think HP was using a second source license for their memory, but IIRC AT&T
had developed its own because they had higher reliability standards.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180824/68d472d6/attachment.html>

From lm at mcvoy.com  Sat Aug 25 02:46:46 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 09:46:46 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180824164646.GH25694@mcvoy.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 12:06:22PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> IIRC, it was a server
> and pretty inflexible in the I/O subsystem for that use.
> Sun would quickly produce the first Sparcs, which as Larry has pointed out,
> kicked butt and were cheaper

I dunno that they kicked butt, my memory is we were all playing leapfrog.
People remember the alpha with a lot of revisionist history, talking 
about fast it was.  I was actually measuring performance of all the 
CPUs at that time and the Alpha I had wasn't anything to write home 
about.  SPARC was sort of like that too, it was better but it was 
really really rare to have a chip that was 2x faster than its peers,
if that happened it was usually the introduction of one CPU generation
compared to the tail of another CPUs generation.

> The only 'successful' product that I can remember that used the WE32100
> was the second version (*a.k.a.* product version) of the Blit (Bart's first version
> was 68000 IIRC).  

Ah, the BLIT.  Pretty sure Wisconsin's CS department had the first generation
(aren't those the ones that caught on fire?).  I *loved* those terminals,
so much nicer than a single screen.

BTW, I had Greg Chesson here for a pig roast once, and he brought Bart.
I've got pics somewhere if anyone cares.

--lm


From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Sat Aug 25 02:59:38 2018
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 18:59:38 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <20180824132244.GA2979@accordion.employees.org>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <20180824132244.GA2979@accordion.employees.org>
Message-ID: <20180824165938.V2naG%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Derek Fawcus wrote in <20180824132244.GA2979 at accordion.employees.org>:
 |On Thu, Aug 23, 2018 at 10:42:40AM -0400, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote:
 |> 
 |>> Has anyone experimented with building Unix using C++, to take
 |>> advantage of strong typing?  My guess is no--it would be a Herculean \
 |>> task
 |> likely to introduce more bugs than it would fix.
 |
 |I recall that there was an attempt to do this with the Linux kernel,
 |but that it was abandoned before it was completed, this would have
 |been pre '98. Probably pre 2.4 Kernel.
 |
 |I have vague memories of discussions about it on the (kernel) mailing
 |list at the time, and that it was the original cause of the 'asmlinkage'
 |annotation on the C level syscalls - basically to turn off C++ name
 |mangling for when the assembler syscall table referenced the C routines.

Also the often seen C paradigm of using "enum bla" in prototypes
results in C++ compilation warnings/errors if the enum is actually
used to define flags rather than a true enumeration, and there are
not "bit enumerations" which would accomplish that.  So you need
to use an integer for the prototype and have lost all checking
capabilities with a glance.  I have never understood this
deficiency.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)


From nobozo at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 03:54:41 2018
From: nobozo at gmail.com (Jon Forrest)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 10:54:41 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <20180824164646.GH25694@mcvoy.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180824164646.GH25694@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <ba52fb62-4257-fb0b-9412-36549488b926@gmail.com>



On 8/24/2018 9:46 AM, Larry McVoy wrote:

> People remember the alpha with a lot of revisionist history, talking
> about fast it was.  I was actually measuring performance of all the
> CPUs at that time and the Alpha I had wasn't anything to write home
> about.  

When the alpha first came out there were 3 implementations, soon
followed by more. I wonder which one you measured.

(You probably don't remember this but you once came to my office
at UCB to talk to my officemate Carl Staelin back when I had
one of the first alphas to be released by DEC.)

Jon




From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Sat Aug 25 04:15:22 2018
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 20:15:22 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <1f6201d43bb7$3b9ebde0$b2dc39a0$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <20180823231413.QeahD%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20180824141348.1NLUE%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <1f6201d43bb7$3b9ebde0$b2dc39a0$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <20180824181522.2nrUS%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

ron at ronnatalie.com wrote in <1f6201d43bb7$3b9ebde0$b2dc39a0$@ronnatalie.com>:
 |That's a different issue (as I alluded to in my post).   Alignment on
 |machines is a different problem.   Type "punning" isn't the problem, the
 |compiler is propely converting one
 |pointer type to another but the operand is not correctly aligned.   

The story told here is more about how the peculiarities of
a standard text and compiler developers come together to something
very unfortunate.

 |In the case I'm referring to, the Univac and the HEP encode partial word
 |sizes in the pointer.    If you take the literal bits from one pointer to
 |another (as if you stored it in a union),
 |then you end up referring to the wrong sized operand in the subsequent
 |operation.    Had you converted it to void* or explicitly forced a

Ah, i am sorry.  Indeed i misunderstood that.

 |conversion wih the cast, the compiler 
 |would have taken care of converting the pointer for you.

Though even more unfortunate i am, since this union trick is often
the only way to be able to do proper a.k.a. allowed type
conversion, where the standard text forbids something quick and
easy, casting of or to function pointers in C++ comes to mind
spontaneously.  (The linked story also tries to go via (char*) to
a desired type, but the compiler seems to be too neat.  And even
if this is a bug, of course...)

 |It's very odd when you find the machine storing the WRONG SIZE operand from
 |the pointer type in use.
 |As I said, it wasn't hard to fix (just grep for all the afflicted unions),
 |but it took a bit of long kernel debug sessions to figure out what was
 |happening.
 |
 |> -----Original Message-----
 |> From: Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen at sdaoden.eu>
 |> I have found the link in the history of my browser, the story was
 |> 
 |>   http://pzemtsov.github.io/2016/11/06/bug-story-alignment-on-x86.html
 --End of <1f6201d43bb7$3b9ebde0$b2dc39a0$@ronnatalie.com>

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)


From bakul at bitblocks.com  Sat Aug 25 04:36:34 2018
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 11:36:34 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <1d5901d43ba4$7bc413b0$734c3b10$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <4130AFB4-1740-46BC-AA98-F9D01549049C@bitblocks.com>
 <1d5901d43ba4$7bc413b0$734c3b10$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <98A5731F-11D3-4D55-B679-8DDF9E4EFFBC@bitblocks.com>

On Aug 24, 2018, at 5:17 AM, ron at ronnatalie.com wrote:
> 
> For instance:
>       int x;
>       daddr_t* y;
> 
>      u.b_un.b_words = &x;
>      y = u.b_un.b_daddr;

One would typically *not* do this.

> 
> This is syntactically correct, but the code will blow up bizarrely on
> machines where the int* and long* pointers are not in the same format. 
> Now if the datatype was a void* and we did this:
> 
>      u.b_vp = & x;
>      y = u.b_vp;
> 
> Provided there weren't any alignment issues, this would work as the
> conversion to and from void* would result in the right pointer value.

For example, given

	union {
	    caddr_t b_addr;		/* low order core address */
	    int	*b_words;		/* words for clearing */
	    struct filsys *b_filsys;	/* superblocks */
	    struct dinode *b_dino;	/* ilist */
	    daddr_t *b_daddr;		/* indirect block */
	} b_un;

You'd use it something like this:

	struct b_un x, y, z, *w;
	struct filesys fs;
	daddr_t d;
	...
	x.b_words = &b;
	y.b_filsys = &fs;
	z.b_addr = &d;
	w = &x;

These come about because in different contexts different ptrs
may be used but one would not do any type conversion. Said another
way, if you replaced the union with a struct, type punning code
would fall apart but legit code would continue working (except
in the case where the *size* of the object is significant).



From ron at ronnatalie.com  Sat Aug 25 04:38:14 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 14:38:14 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <98A5731F-11D3-4D55-B679-8DDF9E4EFFBC@bitblocks.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <4130AFB4-1740-46BC-AA98-F9D01549049C@bitblocks.com>
 <1d5901d43ba4$7bc413b0$734c3b10$@ronnatalie.com>
 <98A5731F-11D3-4D55-B679-8DDF9E4EFFBC@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <250601d43bd9$9ed61800$dc824800$@ronnatalie.com>

> >
> > For instance:
> >       int x;
> >       daddr_t* y;
> >
> >      u.b_un.b_words = &x;
> >      y = u.b_un.b_daddr;
> 
> One would typically *not* do this.

One would think not, but the BSD kernel did.   That's the whole point.





From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sat Aug 25 06:23:25 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2018 16:23:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers (Typesetter C)
Message-ID: <20180824202325.8E0ED18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jaap Akkerhuis

    > I've been told that when troff was rewritten from assembler to C

Was TROFF ever in assembler?

I'm pretty sure NROFF was, as of V6; the source is not in the V6 distro, and
the binary is stripped, but looking at the object code, it doesn't look like C
compiler output.

As of the PWB system that MIT had (or maybe it was TS - how can one tell the
difference, does anyone know?), NROFF and TROFF were generated from the same C
source (which I have, if anyone wants to look at it).


    > the compiler needed some rework and thus typesetter C was born.

I heard he needed features (e.g. longs and unsigned), but... looking at the
N/TROFF source, there are _no_ 'unsigned's, and only a handful of 'long'
variables! There also don't seem to be any bit fields, typedefs, etc.

There is _one_ initialized structure (array of structures, to be precise).
(Although there are a lot of places were an int is initialized with a
double-character constant!)

About the only features in "C Changes" that it uses are i) register types on
arguments, and the 'static' storage class.

So now I'm wondering about that meme...

	Noel


From arnold at skeeve.com  Sun Aug 26 04:30:27 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 12:30:27 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers
In-Reply-To: <EA462C91-DBEE-45A6-9741-E14D6EEBD28C@ccc.com>
References: <201808240702.w7O72pJT005068@freefriends.org>
 <EA462C91-DBEE-45A6-9741-E14D6EEBD28C@ccc.com>
Message-ID: <201808251830.w7PIURLX024379@freefriends.org>

The APS work started in the summer of 1979. See http://www.eprg.org/papers/202paper.pdf
and see some of the other stuff at
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/index.html.

I think that's after V7 was released.

Arnold

Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> Arnold, I caution on absolutes.   Typesetter C predates V7.  It was for V6 but a release of ditroff  may have been after V7. - do remember something like that in the early 80s.  What I do not remember the order of which compilers.  The driver for writing ditroff was the Labs getting an APS5 typesetter which was in the late 70s.  
>
> And (I???m less) certain here, I think Bourne once told me they used the APS5 for the V7 manual set masters because it supported more fonts.   
>
> Btw. The whole reason why typesetter C had a compiler included was the v6 compiler was not insufficient (primarily missing support for stdio) but V7 was not.  
>
> That said the dates and some of the ordering are fuzzy in my mind at this point.  I???m trying to use other things that I have absolute dates for and trying line them up.   
>
> We had V5, quickly upgraded the V6, then TS and finally V7.  I left in late Spring ???79.   That order I know is right and Ted was the reason we had TS as he brought it with him in 76 / 77.  (Same for the proofs for K&R1).   
>
> We got typesetter C at some point I thought before Ted brought TS but that???s fuzzy.  
>
> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 
>
> > On Aug 24, 2018, at 3:02 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > 
> > My two cents, ...
> > 
> >> From: Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>
> >> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 20:30:19 -0400
> >> To: ron at ronnatalie.com
> >> Subject: Re: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
> >> 
> >> Yep.  Im pretty sure I remember void being in typesetter C also.   IIRC the
> >> differences between that version of Dennis???s compiler and what was included
> >> in 7th Edition was mostly in the libraries ie stdio was first released as
> >> part of the typesetter compiler but it was still a work in progress.
> > 
> > K&R 1 did not have void or structure assignment. Those came later,
> > although I'm not sure when.  They may have been mentioned in an
> > appendix; my copy isn't handy to check.
> > 
> > At what point did each struct become its own namespace? I think
> > around the time of K&R1.
> > 
> >> From: Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com>
> >> Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2018 22:52:24 -0400
> >> To: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> >> Subject: Re: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
> >> 
> >> ...
> >> 
> >> The big changes to the language were between 6th Edition and Typesetter
> >> which were done in concert if not to support Brian???s work on the troff
> >> rewrite.  Plus the first draft of book was being written around then also.
> > 
> > The troff rewrite was later, circa '81 or so. Definitely NOT in the
> > V6/V7 timeframe.
> > 
> > Arnold


From steve.mynott at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 04:45:51 2018
From: steve.mynott at gmail.com (Steve Mynott)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 19:45:51 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu
Message-ID: <CANuZA8STu8kX1=-WeJatqN2UhZ7n-49Sn=2sXZq9Fei1SH5hBQ@mail.gmail.com>

Back in the early 90s before the FSF withdrew the service due to misuse it
was possible to write off to them to get a free shell account on "hal" as I
did. I recall having to telnet through one of three gateway systems so
assume it was on its own little subnet.

But I can't remember what sort of system (hardware or OS) it was now
however and wondered if anyone else did?

-- 
Steve Mynott <steve.mynott at gmail.com>
cv25519/ECF8B611205B447E091246AF959E3D6197190DD5
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180825/334c3b85/attachment.html>

From steve.mynott at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 04:59:01 2018
From: steve.mynott at gmail.com (Steve Mynott)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 19:59:01 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu
In-Reply-To: <CANuZA8STu8kX1=-WeJatqN2UhZ7n-49Sn=2sXZq9Fei1SH5hBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuZA8STu8kX1=-WeJatqN2UhZ7n-49Sn=2sXZq9Fei1SH5hBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANuZA8Q-ek==C8sUzvZeb4q-D+BiE2-w4zguRq1NYG-+V-B+Yg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, 25 Aug 2018 at 19:45, Steve Mynott <steve.mynott at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Back in the early 90s before the FSF withdrew the service due to misuse it
> was possible to write off to them to get a free shell account on "hal" as I
> did. I recall having to telnet through one of three gateway systems so
> assume it was on its own little subnet.
>
> But I can't remember what sort of system (hardware or OS) it was now
> however and wondered if anyone else did?
>

https://ftp.gnu.org/old-gnu/Manuals/finger-1.37/html_node/finger_17.html
mentions "spiff" (which rings a bell as one of the systems) as a "Sony"
which must have been a NEWS-OS (BSD) system.

-- 
Steve Mynott <steve.mynott at gmail.com>
cv25519/ECF8B611205B447E091246AF959E3D6197190DD5
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180825/13f6d3fa/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Aug 26 05:58:35 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 15:58:35 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers
In-Reply-To: <201808251830.w7PIURLX024379@freefriends.org>
References: <201808240702.w7O72pJT005068@freefriends.org>
 <EA462C91-DBEE-45A6-9741-E14D6EEBD28C@ccc.com>
 <201808251830.w7PIURLX024379@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PSMD=_RBJ0wYGOSJeZJ=MLLB4yLvJrJjVVteF+GoB9jQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 2:38 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

> The APS work started in the summer of 1979. See
> http://www.eprg.org/papers/202paper.pdf
> and see some of the other stuff at
> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/index.html.
>
> I think that's after V7 was released.
>
Ok, so that was clearly the first ditroff.

Typesetter C *must have been the original troff release* which was separate
from V6; but I don't remember what all was in the release.   Looking at the
v6 distribution tape I have, the assembler versions of roff and nroff was
there; but not troff.   V7 clearly shows the original troff in the sources.


The order I remember is this ... V5, V6, Patches, Typesetter C, TS, V7 ...
 although TS and Typesetter might be switched but I know we got Typesetter
C before we got V7.    Ted brought TS to us (in EE) and I thought that had
the new compiler.   CS got TS from us in EE.    But somebody at CMU had
wanted troff because we had the XGP in CS that we drive with Scribe (I want
to say that was EE but I don't remember who was involved).   So I have
memory of somebody hacking on the compiler at some point.  The POR (which
if ever came to bear at CMU was after I left) was some type of hacking on
troff to support the XGP.  Given the time Aharon points out, it might have
been direct support it or it might have been something like vcat - I was
not involved.   Klone might remember more of that.

Clearly from the time, ditroff did not yet exist.   The more I think about
it, Brian K actually might know some of the story.  Scribe was Brian Reid's
PhD Thesis and Brian K was on Reid's committee at the time and I'm guessing
could somehow have been mixed up.

FWIW: Compiler hacking at CMU stands out in my mind because of the 11/40e
had CSAV/CRET instructions.  The CS versions of the compilers generated
code using that, because they had 11/40e with CMU WCS options.  The rest of
us in EE, BioMed, Mellon Institute etc were running on 11/34's or 11/34A
which could not handle those binaries (no WCS).   So I personally spent
time tracking the CS versions of the compiler and bringing things to EE,
trying to keep thing clean.  That was one of my jobs at the time.

That's fairly sure of the order, because we had Typesetter C at CMU in the
Summer '78 when were we negotiating the 'university' commercial V7 license
with Al Arms [which I was personally mixed up -- the finally
ruling/agreement was license one system as a commercial system at the $20K
fee and a university, could then use UNIX for back office and commercial
style uses like Industry.  Al did not require the $5K second CPU stuff from
the Universities, if they got a single $20K license; everyone was happy -
details off list or another thread if you want them; although I will say
CMU was first in early '79, followed by Case in late 1979].

So again, I try to date by things I know are fixed in time and then work
from there.   As Dan points out the cross pollination was high in those
days and it was not just from the labs to the Universities.  For instance,
Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH, as well as a number of other tools
(although I think that one had the longest reach).   Noel has mentioned
similar stories from MIT.  Chesson brought all the networking stuff from
UoI and we saw some of it in datakit (an earlier version of his mpx code
for V7 he did as a grad student).   You get the idea....

Clem
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180825/fd6f9c89/attachment.html>

From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 08:19:05 2018
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 18:19:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PSMD=_RBJ0wYGOSJeZJ=MLLB4yLvJrJjVVteF+GoB9jQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201808240702.w7O72pJT005068@freefriends.org>
 <EA462C91-DBEE-45A6-9741-E14D6EEBD28C@ccc.com>
 <201808251830.w7PIURLX024379@freefriends.org>
 <CAC20D2PSMD=_RBJ0wYGOSJeZJ=MLLB4yLvJrJjVVteF+GoB9jQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp_HHP93bTksHmb0fTXtwUxagHpSJNC=BypKLViqPArj=w@mail.gmail.com>

*Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH*

I got my introduction to UNIX in '73 or '74, when the group running the
11/45 in Piscataway found out I came into work before 6am. UNIX was so
unstable back then that it had to be rebooted every day, to contain file
system corruption. A 6 am reboot went pretty much unnoticed. I could swear
we ran something very like fsck after each reboot. In particular, I recall
the **gok** diagnostic when the type of an inode wasn't anything
recognizable. Whatever we ran, I'm sure it continued to evolve.


On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 2:38 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>
>> The APS work started in the summer of 1979. See
>> http://www.eprg.org/papers/202paper.pdf
>> and see some of the other stuff at
>> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/index.html.
>>
>> I think that's after V7 was released.
>>
> Ok, so that was clearly the first ditroff.
>
> Typesetter C *must have been the original troff release* which was
> separate from V6; but I don't remember what all was in the release.
>  Looking at the v6 distribution tape I have, the assembler versions of roff
> and nroff was there; but not troff.   V7 clearly shows the original troff
> in the sources.
>
>
> The order I remember is this ... V5, V6, Patches, Typesetter C, TS, V7
> ...   although TS and Typesetter might be switched but I know we got
> Typesetter C before we got V7.    Ted brought TS to us (in EE) and I
> thought that had the new compiler.   CS got TS from us in EE.    But
> somebody at CMU had wanted troff because we had the XGP in CS that we drive
> with Scribe (I want to say that was EE but I don't remember who was
> involved).   So I have memory of somebody hacking on the compiler at some
> point.  The POR (which if ever came to bear at CMU was after I left) was
> some type of hacking on troff to support the XGP.  Given the time Aharon
> points out, it might have been direct support it or it might have been
> something like vcat - I was not involved.   Klone might remember more of
> that.
>
> Clearly from the time, ditroff did not yet exist.   The more I think about
> it, Brian K actually might know some of the story.  Scribe was Brian Reid's
> PhD Thesis and Brian K was on Reid's committee at the time and I'm guessing
> could somehow have been mixed up.
>
> FWIW: Compiler hacking at CMU stands out in my mind because of the 11/40e
> had CSAV/CRET instructions.  The CS versions of the compilers generated
> code using that, because they had 11/40e with CMU WCS options.  The rest of
> us in EE, BioMed, Mellon Institute etc were running on 11/34's or 11/34A
> which could not handle those binaries (no WCS).   So I personally spent
> time tracking the CS versions of the compiler and bringing things to EE,
> trying to keep thing clean.  That was one of my jobs at the time.
>
> That's fairly sure of the order, because we had Typesetter C at CMU in the
> Summer '78 when were we negotiating the 'university' commercial V7 license
> with Al Arms [which I was personally mixed up -- the finally
> ruling/agreement was license one system as a commercial system at the $20K
> fee and a university, could then use UNIX for back office and commercial
> style uses like Industry.  Al did not require the $5K second CPU stuff from
> the Universities, if they got a single $20K license; everyone was happy -
> details off list or another thread if you want them; although I will say
> CMU was first in early '79, followed by Case in late 1979].
>
> So again, I try to date by things I know are fixed in time and then work
> from there.   As Dan points out the cross pollination was high in those
> days and it was not just from the labs to the Universities.  For instance,
> Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH, as well as a number of other tools
> (although I think that one had the longest reach).   Noel has mentioned
> similar stories from MIT.  Chesson brought all the networking stuff from
> UoI and we saw some of it in datakit (an earlier version of his mpx code
> for V7 he did as a grad student).   You get the idea....
>
> Clem
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180825/6d348867/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Aug 26 09:02:01 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 19:02:01 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers
In-Reply-To: <CAC0cEp_HHP93bTksHmb0fTXtwUxagHpSJNC=BypKLViqPArj=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201808240702.w7O72pJT005068@freefriends.org>
 <EA462C91-DBEE-45A6-9741-E14D6EEBD28C@ccc.com>
 <201808251830.w7PIURLX024379@freefriends.org>
 <CAC20D2PSMD=_RBJ0wYGOSJeZJ=MLLB4yLvJrJjVVteF+GoB9jQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC0cEp_HHP93bTksHmb0fTXtwUxagHpSJNC=BypKLViqPArj=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OpRguT+HJUStngE2K8TVSVP8jxRHg0LG3vgLsQtK8_DA@mail.gmail.com>

Fsck was very much a CMU program. I had a small hand in it - the reason why
the errors Messages are upper case in fact. (a different story).    That
said it was hardly a new idea - Ted modelled it from a similar program he
saw at UMich on MTS and one I ran on TSS called the file system checker.
 im guessing there may have been other programs like it.

Before fsck Ken had icheck ncheck and dcheck.  IIRC Masheys team in PWB @
Whippany I think, wrote fsdb which shows up around the same time     I also
think the Columbus folks may have something early on also.

Ted took fsck back To USG and it became part of the Summit releases.  Bill
Joy had been his roommate at Michigan which I think is how to made to ucb.
But Joy had it there before I showed up.

Clem


On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 6:19 PM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com> wrote:

> *Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH*
>
> I got my introduction to UNIX in '73 or '74, when the group running the
> 11/45 in Piscataway found out I came into work before 6am. UNIX was so
> unstable back then that it had to be rebooted every day, to contain file
> system corruption. A 6 am reboot went pretty much unnoticed. I could swear
> we ran something very like fsck after each reboot. In particular, I recall
> the **gok** diagnostic when the type of an inode wasn't anything
> recognizable. Whatever we ran, I'm sure it continued to evolve.
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 2:38 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The APS work started in the summer of 1979. See
>>> http://www.eprg.org/papers/202paper.pdf
>>> and see some of the other stuff at
>>> http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~bwk/202/index.html.
>>>
>>> I think that's after V7 was released.
>>>
>> Ok, so that was clearly the first ditroff.
>>
>> Typesetter C *must have been the original troff release* which was
>> separate from V6; but I don't remember what all was in the release.
>>  Looking at the v6 distribution tape I have, the assembler versions of roff
>> and nroff was there; but not troff.   V7 clearly shows the original troff
>> in the sources.
>>
>>
>> The order I remember is this ... V5, V6, Patches, Typesetter C, TS, V7
>> ...   although TS and Typesetter might be switched but I know we got
>> Typesetter C before we got V7.    Ted brought TS to us (in EE) and I
>> thought that had the new compiler.   CS got TS from us in EE.    But
>> somebody at CMU had wanted troff because we had the XGP in CS that we drive
>> with Scribe (I want to say that was EE but I don't remember who was
>> involved).   So I have memory of somebody hacking on the compiler at some
>> point.  The POR (which if ever came to bear at CMU was after I left) was
>> some type of hacking on troff to support the XGP.  Given the time Aharon
>> points out, it might have been direct support it or it might have been
>> something like vcat - I was not involved.   Klone might remember more of
>> that.
>>
>> Clearly from the time, ditroff did not yet exist.   The more I think
>> about it, Brian K actually might know some of the story.  Scribe was Brian
>> Reid's PhD Thesis and Brian K was on Reid's committee at the time and I'm
>> guessing could somehow have been mixed up.
>>
>> FWIW: Compiler hacking at CMU stands out in my mind because of the 11/40e
>> had CSAV/CRET instructions.  The CS versions of the compilers generated
>> code using that, because they had 11/40e with CMU WCS options.  The rest of
>> us in EE, BioMed, Mellon Institute etc were running on 11/34's or 11/34A
>> which could not handle those binaries (no WCS).   So I personally spent
>> time tracking the CS versions of the compiler and bringing things to EE,
>> trying to keep thing clean.  That was one of my jobs at the time.
>>
>> That's fairly sure of the order, because we had Typesetter C at CMU in
>> the Summer '78 when were we negotiating the 'university' commercial V7
>> license with Al Arms [which I was personally mixed up -- the finally
>> ruling/agreement was license one system as a commercial system at the $20K
>> fee and a university, could then use UNIX for back office and commercial
>> style uses like Industry.  Al did not require the $5K second CPU stuff from
>> the Universities, if they got a single $20K license; everyone was happy -
>> details off list or another thread if you want them; although I will say
>> CMU was first in early '79, followed by Case in late 1979].
>>
>> So again, I try to date by things I know are fixed in time and then work
>> from there.   As Dan points out the cross pollination was high in those
>> days and it was not just from the labs to the Universities.  For instance,
>> Ted took fsck back to Summit & MH, as well as a number of other tools
>> (although I think that one had the longest reach).   Noel has mentioned
>> similar stories from MIT.  Chesson brought all the networking stuff from
>> UoI and we saw some of it in datakit (an earlier version of his mpx code
>> for V7 he did as a grad student).   You get the idea....
>>
>> Clem
>>
>>
> --
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180825/19da17fd/attachment.html>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Aug 26 09:14:13 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 19:14:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers
Message-ID: <20180825231413.612F818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Clem Cole

    > Looking at the v6 distribution tape I have, the assembler versions of
    > roff and nroff was there
    
Whoa! The standard V6 distribution tape, as in the one there are a couple of
copies of in the repository, does not have that.

Do you have that in machine-readable form? If so, can you get it to Mr. Toomey
ASAP?


    > The order I remember is this ... V5, V6, Patches, Typesetter C, TS, V7

Where do USG and PWB fit into that?

The repository has PWB (or, what is _claimed_ to be PWB), which is how I know
the MIT system is PWB. But there is nothing of the others (except the kernel
manual for USG, which shows that the version described in it is basically V6).

If anyone has TS in _any_ form (including hardcopy listings, please speak up!
Those 'early' PDP-11 versions are very poorly documented now, and I'd love to
get more on them.

    Noel


From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Aug 26 09:56:47 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 19:56:47 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers
In-Reply-To: <20180825231413.612F818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180825231413.612F818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2P4DoTJ0VzYdRsJKrC9+T6+nVxTSiARxDAcFtGxx0mmFw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 7:14 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Clem Cole
>
>     > Looking at the v6 distribution tape I have, the assembler versions of
>     > roff and nroff was there
>
> Whoa! The standard V6 distribution tape, as in the one there are a couple
> of
> copies of in the repository, does not have that.

The v6 stuff is in Warrens archives.  The files are in the ./s7 directory:
{,n}roff[1-8].s  show dates of July 17, 1975


>
> Do you have that in machine-readable form? If so, can you get it to Mr.
> Toomey
> ASAP?
>
>
>     > The order I remember is this ... V5, V6, Patches, Typesetter C, TS,
> V7
>
> Where do USG and PWB fit into that?

This is order of the releases  we had at CMU.


PWB 1.0 was before USG was formed I want to say '77 Mashey lead the team
for sure and I think Frazer may have been part.

USG was Created and APS and Ted were two of First hackers who were there.
Ted tried to get me at some point but I did not want to move to NJ.

Fwiw: The job of USG was to support Unix for the operating companies that
wanted to use Unix at the TelCos.   Steve Johnson I think went over there
from Research at some point (I assume to lead the development tools).

PWB 2.0 was the first Formal full USG release - I think in 1980 but they
did stuff before that.  steve might remember who the original managers were
And other things they released -  I thought Mashey had moved on by then.
Korn's stuff became the Core of the toolkit releases at some point but
dates on that are fuzzy in my memory.

also, Until PWB 3.0 (aka System III) none of the USG releases were licensed
to universities or anyone outside the Bell System . .   but a number of
at&t employees brought it with them On their OYOC times so 1.0, 2.0 etc all
leaked.

I thought TS was done in MH not Summit.  Heinz L was doing Merit around
that time too.    As I understand it, the TS kernel was attempt at bringing
the PWB 1.0 changes in line with what Research had at the time.  Some later
version of That kernel plus some of the Columbus changes for things like
shared memory and ipc became either PWB 2.0/3.0.

PWB 4.0 went to the TelCos but was not released outside.  I don't know of
any University that was interested in it because by the BSD was available
so even if an employee brought it, I don't think many people wanted it.





>
> The repository has PWB (or, what is _claimed_ to be PWB), which is how I
> know
> the MIT system is PWB. But there is nothing of the others (except the
> kernel
> manual for USG, which shows that the version described in it is basically
> V6)


Right that was leaked somehow.


.
>
> If anyone has TS in _any_ form (including hardcopy listings, please speak
> up!

I have looked in fact the week I did a huge clean out in the basement.  So
far nothing new. I'll let you know if I find anything readable.



> Those 'early' PDP-11 versions are very poorly documented now, and I'd love
> to
> get more on them.



Yeah as I said it was stream with a lot of cross pollination.

Clem
-- 
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180825/b1cd46b0/attachment.html>

From jim at deitygraveyard.com  Sun Aug 26 10:28:11 2018
From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 20:28:11 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu
In-Reply-To: <CANuZA8Q-ek==C8sUzvZeb4q-D+BiE2-w4zguRq1NYG-+V-B+Yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuZA8STu8kX1=-WeJatqN2UhZ7n-49Sn=2sXZq9Fei1SH5hBQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANuZA8Q-ek==C8sUzvZeb4q-D+BiE2-w4zguRq1NYG-+V-B+Yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <351f1534-9a08-9366-f09a-40337b28df16@deitygraveyard.com>

On 08/25/2018 02:59 PM, Steve Mynott wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 25 Aug 2018 at 19:45, Steve Mynott <steve.mynott at gmail.com 
> <mailto:steve.mynott at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     Back in the early 90s before the FSF withdrew the service due to
>     misuse it was possible to write off to them to get a free shell
>     account on "hal" as I did. I recall having to telnet through one
>     of three gateway systems so assume it was on its own little subnet.
>
>     But I can't remember what sort of system (hardware or OS) it was
>     now however and wondered if anyone else did?
>
>
> https://ftp.gnu.org/old-gnu/Manuals/finger-1.37/html_node/finger_17.html 
> mentions "spiff" (which rings a bell as one of the systems) as a 
> "Sony" which must have been a NEWS-OS (BSD) system.
> -- 
> Steve Mynott <steve.mynott at gmail.com <mailto:steve.mynott at gmail.com>>
> cv25519/ECF8B611205B447E091246AF959E3D6197190DD5

'hal' was running AIX on a RS/6000. At least it was when I last used it 
sometime in 1992 or so. It was one of the gateways.

'spike', I'm pretty sure, was a Sony NEWS. It was also one of the 
gateways IIRC.

Those are the only two I can (kinda) remember.

Jim




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180825/63c95a48/attachment.html>

From wkt at tuhs.org  Sun Aug 26 10:31:27 2018
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 10:31:27 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
Message-ID: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>

Hi all, I've just heard that the Usenix board of directors do not want
to explicitly celebrate the 50th anniversary of Unix.

It's been suggested that we, the TUHS members, both lobby the board and
also offer our assistance to help organisation such a celebration.

Who, on the list, would put their hands up to help organising something
that coincided with the 2019 Usenix ATC in July 2019?

I'd like to get the bare bones of an organising team, then approach the
Usenix board, offer our help and ask them to support us.

What do you think? 11 months to go.

Thanks, Warren

P.S. Nokia Bell Labs are also going to organise something, possibly a month
earlier but I have no solid details yet.


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Sun Aug 26 11:04:24 2018
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 18:04:24 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
In-Reply-To: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <69e611959cdd9902@orthanc.ca>

Warren Toomey writes:
> Hi all, I've just heard that the Usenix board of directors do not want
> to explicitly celebrate the 50th anniversary of Unix.

Why not?!?


From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun Aug 26 11:31:31 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 18:31:31 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
In-Reply-To: <69e611959cdd9902@orthanc.ca>
References: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <69e611959cdd9902@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <20180826013131.GD4893@mcvoy.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 06:04:24PM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> Warren Toomey writes:
> > Hi all, I've just heard that the Usenix board of directors do not want
> > to explicitly celebrate the 50th anniversary of Unix.
> 
> Why not?!?

I had composed a reply and thought it was snarky, but what the heck.
There is a reason I stopped going to Usenix and this is just more
evidence that I made the right choice.

For those who care, here's the back story (and Clem fixed this but long
after I had pulled out).

Somewhere in the 1990's Victor Yodaiken wrote a really cool paper.  I was
one of the reviewers and Rob Gingell was as well (Rob was a Sun Fellow 
which was the equiv of a VP but in the technical track.  Great guy, I had
and have much respect for him).

Victor's paper was about how to do real time and a time sharing system
at the same time.  If you know operating systems you know that real time
and time sharing don't mix, people keep trying to mix them and it doesn't
really work.  The real time people talk about "good enough" but the people
who know math and operating systems know that you can't truly get both.

Victor got both.  He did it by creating a real time kernel that ran Linux,
all of Linux, the kernel and user space, as the real time kernel's idle
process.  Linux disabled interrupts, the RT kernel was like, yeah, sure
you did.  It was brilliant.  It worked.  I've seen demos where Linux is
running xperfmon, some other compute load, tarring up /home and untarring
on an NFS server, in other words, beating the crap out of the hardware,
and the RT kernel never missed an event.

Rob was part of the good old boys club that was Unix.  He had never heard
of Victor and he rejected the paper while I was a big fan (I believe this
paper was how I met Victor, I sought him out).  Rob came up with some noise
about how the RT kernel wasn't POSIX compliant (duh, then it wouldn't be
real time) but the real reason, I believe, was that Victor wasn't part of
the good old boys club.

Roll forward some years and I'm the chair of Linux expo.  It was 1998, early
days, but it was apparent that Linux was a thing.  And it was a Unix thing
that wasn't part of Usenix.  Ellie (or someone, maybe Honeyman, was he part
of the board?) came to me and asked me to pull the Linux folks into Usenix.
They offered me "anything" I wanted, be on the board, be on the review
committee, etc.  What I asked for was nothing for me, but something for
everyone, blind peer reviews of paper submissions.  They said no and 
I've not been to a Usenix conference since.  Clem says he cleaned house
but still, it's not blind reviews to this day so far as I know.

And it's a huge shame.  The world should have gotten to see Victor's
brilliant have your cake and eat it too real time / time sharing idea.
It didn't because of the old boys club and that's a bummer.

No disrespect to Rob, I think he was just in that space and sort of
knee jerked, he's a good guy, I think he just made a bad call that
time.

--lm


From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Aug 26 12:03:04 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 22:03:04 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
In-Reply-To: <69e611959cdd9902@orthanc.ca>
References: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <69e611959cdd9902@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PNCE5i85y1TDZ-97guWOOf3_LquRS1tEiMU8UF5GXroQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 9:11 PM Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon at orthanc.ca> wrote:

> Warren Toomey writes:
> > Hi all, I've just heard that the Usenix board of directors do not want
> > to explicitly celebrate the 50th anniversary of Unix.
>
> Why not?!?
>

Before I reply to the list, I also know some people on this list have a
distaste for some of the USENIX folks.  There were some problems in the
past with at least one important employee.   That has been corrected, but
the 'institutional memory' was also some what sacrificed as people such as
my self got a little burned out dealing with the issues.   That said, they
are good people and they have changed which is good.   But they are
primarily a more academic focused lot and as such, few of the people that
understand the value (much less were there) are activity involved.

That said, I made a proposal at the last BOD meeting in June that we do
something 'special' at the next USENIX.  I had a vetted the proposal with
Warren as well as a with a number of previous BOD members, including a
couple of past presidents.   I thought it made a lot of sense as did others.

Unfortunately, while it may be here, history for the sake of history is not
all that interesting to them.  So, the basic pitch is that until UNIX came
about, OSses were all over the map and everything was a different.  Except
for UNIX nothing from those days really is left except maybe Fortran and
that only for HPC.  Yet, today in most days, you (computer person or
mortal) can hardly not be using a UNIX system, from your cell phone, IoT
devices, car,  to search and Internet services.    No other part of
computing has had such an effect and been as pervasive and lastest.   We
need to celebrate how that happened and try to remember some of the
important things and people that made it so.

The boards response has been: *"**... agrees that we should acknowledge
this milestone appropriately. After much discussion, they concluded that
USENIX will do so throughout the course of its regularly scheduled and
budgeted activities.''   *Basically they want to say something at opening
session and maybe acknowledge a few people that come to ACT next summer,
but nothing like what we talked about.

I wanted to have a party at the History Museum in Seattle (ACT will be in
Renton).   The problem is that ACT no longer has a big party mid week, so
they don't have an event for this to occur.   Plus much of the board did a
little bit of a huh?  which in my translation is - "if it does not help us
academically, tell me why we need to do this again?"

BTW: One of the other thing that I socialized was how this community was
always open and inviting to people regardless of sexual orientation, race,
creed etc. There have been disagreements (which Larry can regale you on a
few as I know he holds a certain people responsible for bad things, ushc as
how the Linux community was handled).   But I wanted to try to see if we
could get some of the important women, not just the men (i.e. the Systers)
as well as some of the folks from the LGBQ community that were a part.
 It's an interesting social history as well as technical one.

My reply to the official email from Casey and Carolyn was:  *"**I do think
you should do something over and above.   As I said, I know a lot of people
are 'up' for it and what to do we be apart and keep asking what can they
do/what is going to be done.   There has been a bit of discussion on the
TUHS mailing list.   As I said, I've been in contract with Lou Katz, the
first USENIX President, and Debbie S (who was an early President) and
Andrew Hume (also ex-President).  All have expressed interest in helping
and think it would be a great idea to do something 'special' both to
recognize but also because it should be fun."*

I believe the BOD will support a BOF, but they are not going to fund bring
people back or anything over and beyond or an external party (although I'm
not opposed to asking a few people like Rich Adams who made $s with UNIX to
help us fund something).   So my comment to Warren was basically this
thought: if we try to make sure people are there and we set something up, I
know we can have BOF.   But if we plan it and arrange it and maybe we hit
bod at usenix.org with email we can do something.  I've been looking for a
good intro to the folks in Seattle, as I still think a party there would be
the best - but we need permission and then we need to find a way to fund it.

Clem
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180825/186c6677/attachment.html>

From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun Aug 26 12:22:10 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 19:22:10 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <ba52fb62-4257-fb0b-9412-36549488b926@gmail.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180824164646.GH25694@mcvoy.com>
 <ba52fb62-4257-fb0b-9412-36549488b926@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180826022210.GF4893@mcvoy.com>

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 10:54:41AM -0700, Jon Forrest wrote:
> On 8/24/2018 9:46 AM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> >People remember the alpha with a lot of revisionist history, talking
> >about fast it was.  I was actually measuring performance of all the
> >CPUs at that time and the Alpha I had wasn't anything to write home
> >about.
> 
> When the alpha first came out there were 3 implementations, soon
> followed by more. I wonder which one you measured.

2106A 275Mhz

> (You probably don't remember this but you once came to my office
> at UCB to talk to my officemate Carl Staelin back when I had
> one of the first alphas to be released by DEC.)

I don't remember a lot of stuff, I'm old.  Old enough to get the joke that
when you are 25 and you open the fridge and ask "what am I doing here?"
it is existential question.  When you are my age and you open the fridge
and ask the same question it's because you forgot what you wanted.

That said, I do have some memory of going somewhere, but UCB?  I thought
Carl was at HP Labs?  But I do remember going somewhere.

And all these years later Carl and I are still close friends.  It is
a small world.  

--lm


From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun Aug 26 12:34:41 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 19:34:41 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PNCE5i85y1TDZ-97guWOOf3_LquRS1tEiMU8UF5GXroQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <69e611959cdd9902@orthanc.ca>
 <CAC20D2PNCE5i85y1TDZ-97guWOOf3_LquRS1tEiMU8UF5GXroQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180826023441.GG4893@mcvoy.com>

> BTW: One of the other thing that I socialized was how this community was
> always open and inviting to people regardless of sexual orientation, race,
> creed etc. There have been disagreements (which Larry can regale you on a
> few as I know he holds a certain people responsible for bad things, ushc as
> how the Linux community was handled).   But I wanted to try to see if we
> could get some of the important women, not just the men (i.e. the Systers)
> as well as some of the folks from the LGBQ community that were a part.
>  It's an interesting social history as well as technical one.

I want just want to add to this comment Clem.  You are spot on in my
experience.  It's one of the bright spots of our industry, in my 
opinion (I can imagine that there are people who will disagree, this
is just what I've seen).

In my experience, nobody cared if you were male, female, gay, lesbian,
transgender, whatever, it was all cool if you could figure out this 
kernel panic, we'll kiss your ass (well, maybe not that but we'll buy
dinner at Harry's Hafbrau and that's better than a kiss).

I've watched a tech writer go from female to dude to female and nobody
cared, she was a good tech writer.

I'm sure there are people that will disagree but the world I lived in 
was super welcoming to people being different, all we cared about was
can you do your job.

--lm


From dave at horsfall.org  Sun Aug 26 12:47:45 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 12:47:45 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
In-Reply-To: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808261237290.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sun, 26 Aug 2018, Warren Toomey wrote:

> Hi all, I've just heard that the Usenix board of directors do not want 
> to explicitly celebrate the 50th anniversary of Unix.

What on earth are they smoking?  Or is it something in the water?

[...]

> What do you think? 11 months to go.

I'd love to help out in any way that I can, but now that I'm officially an 
Aged Pensioner I seem to be flat out for some reason...

And yes, I really must get that ACSnet (and UUCP) node going, but now that 
I have time for Amateur radio (and electronics in general) I really must 
clean off my workbench so that I can see my dining table again (and it's 
just as well that I'm divorced, as otherwise I soon would be).

-- Dave VK2KFU


From tytso at mit.edu  Sun Aug 26 14:10:46 2018
From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Y. Ts'o)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 00:10:46 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808261237290.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808261237290.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20180826041046.GA3176@thunk.org>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 12:47:45PM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Aug 2018, Warren Toomey wrote:
> 
> > Hi all, I've just heard that the Usenixh board of directors do not want
> > to explicitly celebrate the 50th anniversary of Unix.
> 
> What on earth are they smoking?  Or is it something in the water?

Reading between lines from Clem's message, I wonder if it is a money
issue?  Usenix has become very academic focused, and for better or for
worse the Linux Foundation has provided many conference facilitation
services for various industry initiatives that go beyond Linux (e.g.,
software defined networking, RISC-V, etc.)  As a result Usenix might
not have the resources that it did a decade or two ago.

In another reality these industry initiatives might have been
something that Usenix had gotten involved in, and which would have
made it much more relevant to the industry.  Unfortunately, I believe
that there were many "old-time Usenix" folk who felt very threatened
by Linux, and thought that it wasn't sufficiently academic, and didn't
sufficiently acknowledge the debt that was owed to their elders.

The question I would raise is whether some kind of 50th celebration
has to be colocated with Usenix ATC, especially if the Usenix BoD is
not innterested in lending much in the way of financial or staff
support.  For example, maybe something combined with some kind of
fund-raising event held at the Compute History Museum in the Bay Area?

Or perhaps the Linux Foundation might be willing to do a Unix 50th
celebration at their 2019 Open Source Summit event?

It does seem to me that Usenix ought to have the right of first
refusal to host such a celebration, but if the Board isn't willing to
step it up, there are other possibilities that could be explored.

    	     	     	     	       	   - Ted


From khm at sciops.net  Sun Aug 26 15:29:31 2018
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 22:29:31 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
In-Reply-To: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20180826052931.GA14695@wopr>

On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 10:31:27AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> 
> What do you think? 11 months to go.
> 
> Thanks, Warren
> 
> P.S. Nokia Bell Labs are also going to organise something, possibly a month
> earlier but I have no solid details yet.


Unsenix stopped being Usenix when they rode SAGE into the ground and
chased out all the sysadmins.  I appreciate the efforts of a lot of
people there to keep the flag up, but I've never understood the decision
to try to become ACM Lite (pastes great, less filling).  

I'm super interested in what Bell Labs has planned, and anything
happening at the Living Computer Museum as well.  Maybe if we ask nicely
they'll let us play with the Blit!

khm


From arnold at skeeve.com  Sun Aug 26 18:48:25 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 02:48:25 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <201808260848.w7Q8mPuP007397@freefriends.org>

I am pretty sure that V8 was the first research system to run on
Vaxen, and I believe that Research used 750 and later 8550s for
their systems. Norman could probably give a defnitive answer.

V7 on the Interdata aside, Plan 9 is when you saw a big push to
a multiplatform system: MIPS, SPARC, 68040 and 386.

Arnold

Seth Morabito <web at loomcom.com> wrote:

> After the past several years of focusing on 3B2 preservation and
> emulation, I've begun to wonder whether 3B2 hardware was used very much
> inside of Bell Labs. Has anyone ever heard whether Research UNIX was
> ever ported to the WE32100? I've certainly never seen anything that
> would suggest it was, but I'd love to be proven wrong.
>
> -Seth
> -- 
>   Seth Morabito
>   Poulsbo, WA
>   web at loomcom.com


From norman at oclsc.org  Sun Aug 26 23:09:42 2018
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 09:09:42 -0400
Subject: [TUHS]  Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
Message-ID: <1535288985.3793.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

Seth Morabito:

  After the past several years of focusing on 3B2 preservation and
  emulation, I've begun to wonder whether 3B2 hardware was used very much
  inside of Bell Labs. Has anyone ever heard whether Research UNIX was
  ever ported to the WE32100? I've certainly never seen anything that
  would suggest it was, but I'd love to be proven wrong.

=====

I never heard of anyone doing such a thing.  Had they ported
the kernel I would almost certainly have heard about it, because
they'd have asked me a question or two.  Much VAX-specific
structure inside there that I'd love to have had the time and
energy to clean up.

It's possible that someone did a semi-port, moving a lot of
the user-mode tools like the shell and the Jerq software.
Dave Kapilow did something like that for early SunOS, including
a mux-like X11 terminal program called sux, built atop a
library that did a simple mapping from Jerq graphics-library
calls to X11.

Certainly nobody inside 1127 ever did either of those things.
A few of us played with 3B1 or 3B2 systems (I remember Tom
Duff had a 3B1 at home at one point), but never very seriously.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON


From paul.winalski at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 02:34:34 2018
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2018 12:34:34 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <20180824181522.2nrUS%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <20180823231413.QeahD%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20180824141348.1NLUE%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <1f6201d43bb7$3b9ebde0$b2dc39a0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <20180824181522.2nrUS%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VT5Yi-6uRz_-045cmf-4kbgTSHZhsCLLracoFXNDwSAYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/24/18, Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen at sdaoden.eu> wrote:
>
> Though even more unfortunate i am, since this union trick is often
> the only way to be able to do proper a.k.a. allowed type
> conversion, where the standard text forbids something quick and
> easy, casting of or to function pointers in C++ comes to mind
> spontaneously.  (The linked story also tries to go via (char*) to
> a desired type, but the compiler seems to be too neat.  And even
> if this is a bug, of course...)

One of the complaints about DEC's C99 compiler for Ultrix was that it
was too didactic in its enforcement of the C99 standard.  One customer
called it the Rush Limbough of compilers, because it was extremely
conservative and you couldn't argue with it.

Function pointers can be tricky, as they might not be simple pointers
to a sequence of instructions.  On Itanium, for example, a C
pointer-to-function points to a descriptor for the function, not the
function code itself.

-Paul W.


From mah at mhorton.net  Tue Aug 28 01:54:28 2018
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 08:54:28 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>

Inside AT&T (but outside research) there was considerable pressure to 
use AT&T products (3B, System V, BLIT/5620, Datakit) rather than the 
externally developing Sun/Ethernet/TCP suite, especially in the mid-late 
1980s.  We all (mostly) hated them and wanted Suns, but we were told 
"eat your own dog food." The 3B20 and 3B5 were awful, but the 3B2 had 
potential.  Once we got a working TCP/IP network in Bell Labs the tide 
turned in favor of Suns.


On 08/24/2018 09:06 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 11:13 AM Seth Morabito <web at loomcom.com 
> <mailto:web at loomcom.com>> wrote:
>
>     ...
>     I've begun to wonder whether 3B2 hardware was used very much
>     inside of Bell Labs.
>
> I'd be curious to hear of people that actually used it.  AT&T forced 
> you to buy one with SVR3 as the porting base (I'd have never had 
> bought the one we had a Stellar otherwise).
> The only time I ever knew anyone run one, was to check to see the 
> behavior of some code/validation testing of RFS /etc/...
>
> The HW as pretty slow/inflexible compared to 68020/68030 which came 
> out around the same time, so it was just not interesting - /i.e./ 
> 'JAWS' - Just another work station' and it did not have a display.  
> IIRC, it was a server and pretty inflexible in the I/O subsystem for 
> that use.
> Sun would quickly produce the first Sparcs, which as Larry has pointed 
> out, kicked butt
> and were cheaper
> .   The MIPS chip would emerge
> with lots of designs,
> and for that matter the 040 and the 386 would appear soon their after
> , too.
>
> I've always felt that the 3Bx series was an example of fighting the 
> previous war; other than 3B4000 (which had high reliability but other 
> issues in practice to use it), there was never anything that made them 
> special - compared to everyone else.
>
> The only 'successful' product
> that I
> can
> rememberthat used the WE32100
> was the
> second version (/a.k.a./product version) of the Blit (Bart's first 
> version was 68000 IIRC).  Does anyone know of another product?  I 
> think I was told the 5ESS
> changed
>  the SLICs
> design
> from the original 68000 design to WE32100 but I was no
> longer associated with anyone working on it by then, so I don't know.
>
> Dennis once remarked to a couple of us that the WE32100 was an example 
> of AT&T wanting to make sure it had its own recipe to make processors, 
> but it was not clear it was worth it.   BTW: around the same time both 
> AT&T and HP were making their own DRAM too.  It was common thinking in 
> management at tech companies - telling folks that they needed to be 
> 'vertically integrated.'  But in the case of both HP and AT&T there 
> internally produced DRAM chips cost 2-3 times what the merchant market 
> cost; so besides the investment in the fab (which was huge) it was a 
> pretty expensive insurance policy.
>
> That said, this was also the end times for the idea of the 'second 
> source.'   Chip manufacturers would be required to license their 
> designs to some one else (for instance AMD was originally Intel's 
> second source).   I think HP was using a second source license for 
> their memory, but IIRC AT&T had developed its own because they had 
> higher reliability standards.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180827/a4494cec/attachment.html>

From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Tue Aug 28 02:31:17 2018
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 18:31:17 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] C++ / Kernel
In-Reply-To: <CABH=_VT5Yi-6uRz_-045cmf-4kbgTSHZhsCLLracoFXNDwSAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <10c401d43aef$8be34870$a3a9d950$@ronnatalie.com>
 <ACE5F352-8FCF-4C3C-B60B-7CD1C6094939@bitblocks.com>
 <151301d43b2f$07881ed0$16985c70$@ronnatalie.com>
 <20180823231413.QeahD%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <20180824141348.1NLUE%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <1f6201d43bb7$3b9ebde0$b2dc39a0$@ronnatalie.com>
 <20180824181522.2nrUS%steffen@sdaoden.eu>
 <CABH=_VT5Yi-6uRz_-045cmf-4kbgTSHZhsCLLracoFXNDwSAYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180827163117.PTEBF%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Paul Winalski wrote in <CABH=_VT5Yi-6uRz_-045cmf-4kbgTSHZhsCLLracoFXNDwS\
AYQ at mail.gmail.com>:
 |On 8/24/18, Steffen Nurpmeso <steffen at sdaoden.eu> wrote:
 |> Though even more unfortunate i am, since this union trick is often
 |> the only way to be able to do proper a.k.a. allowed type
 |> conversion, where the standard text forbids something quick and
 |> easy, casting of or to function pointers in C++ comes to mind
 |> spontaneously.  (The linked story also tries to go via (char*) to
 |> a desired type, but the compiler seems to be too neat.  And even
 |> if this is a bug, of course...)
 |
 |One of the complaints about DEC's C99 compiler for Ultrix was that it
 |was too didactic in its enforcement of the C99 standard.  One customer
 |called it the Rush Limbough of compilers, because it was extremely
 |conservative and you couldn't argue with it.
 |
 |Function pointers can be tricky, as they might not be simple pointers
 |to a sequence of instructions.  On Itanium, for example, a C
 |pointer-to-function points to a descriptor for the function, not the
 |function code itself.

They can be as tricky as they want as long as i can go and use
them, wouldn't you agree?  Not only for simple callbacks but for
"manual VTables" you simply need those dynamic callbacks.  Like
you have said, you need a way to change the instruction location.
As far as i know this is what actually happens, and i want to be
able to access this mechanism without being prevented from some
language rule which is backed by nothing.  That is all.  Whatever
high language construct there may be.  To me this was one of the
properties of the C language.

I can give you another example.  I have a C++ library which uses
an approach to events where you (can) define slots, as in

  pub Misc::Sender<IOEvent> onInput;

You then say XY.onInput.connect(MYHOOK), where MYHOOK can be one
of four different types, which return "event consumed:

  pub typedef boolean (   *Slot1)(Event *);
  pub typedef boolean (   *Slot2)(void *, Event *);
  pub typedef boolean (   EventListener::*Slot3)(Event *);

The first is a PTF callback without user provided data, the second
adds that; the third is a PointerToMember.  The third defines
a PTM to a subclass of EventListener, which is an empty class but
with VTable (protected destructor), provided for the sole purpose
of offering a cheap event slot without marshalling object, managed
by an equal number of connection types, superclass:

  // actual connection structures
  // note we use the lower three bits of Conn::flags for Flags (including
  // ConnType) as below.  this works because the memory cache has an
  // alignment of 8 (or 16, and only).
  pri struct Conn{
    union{
      uir flags;
      Conn *right;
    };
  } SF_CC_PACKED;

E.g., the third

  pri struct ConnML{ // EventListener PTM
    Conn base;
    EventListener *elobj;
    Slot3 slot;
  } SF_CC_PACKED;

So far so good.  But what to do with free-form PTM hooks?
You need templates for that:

  pub template<class OBJ>
  struct ConnMT{ // free-form PTM (template indirection)
    typedef boolean (OBJ::*Slot4)(Event *);
    ConnFO cfo;
    OBJ *tobj;
    Slot4 slot;
  } SF_CC_PACKED;

But that induces several problems, one of them is

    - 2.95.2 and 2.95.3 compile the library without errors.
      The problem with them is that they are not able to handle the
      free-from template pointer-to-member (PTM),
      as well as the EventListener PTM specialization of
      SF::Sys::Misc::Sender correctly.
      This is a no-go for other libraries, which use events as
      a key concept (and base upon EventListener to get rid of the
      purely template PTM based connection overhead), but is
      otherwise no problem.
      (Some of the tests in test/ will not compile, though.)
      (Note: 2.95.2 has not been tested for a long time.
      2.95.3 is part of the test-suite at the time of this writing
      aka TAG 0.6.0.)

The other is that you cannot store ConnMT in generic code -- the
C++ standard does not offer this possibility, even though Slot4 is
a PTM just the very same way that Slot3 is, right?  PTMs are
a wild mix of VTable and offset, right.  But luckily it can be
done, with a very wild hack, but which still works after almost
twenty years, whether gcc or clang is used, at least the tests
ran just fine last time i have tried:

  // disconnecting of those is hard; try it like that (doc/cppcreq.txt).
  pri struct ConnMX{
    ConnFO cfo;
    void *tobj;
    ui1 ptmbuf[szof(Slot3)];
  } SF_CC_PACKED;

Nonetheless you need marshalling objects to dispatch events
through such slots, which is very painful and expensive, as well
as completely unnecessary yet imposed solely by language speech,
but at least all the list handling and such works just fine
(though using memcmp on ptmbuf is really wild).

  _pro template<class OBJ>
  void _Sender::connect4(typename ConnMT<OBJ>::Slot4 _Slot,
      OBJ *_tobj) const{
    ConnMT<OBJ> *cmt;
    cmt = SF_talloc(ConnMT<OBJ>, 1);
    cmt->cfo.base.flags = ((R(uir,m_slots) & ~f_mask) | ct_ptm_t);
    m_slots = &cmt->cfo.base;
    cmt->cfo.slot = &_Sender::_Dispatch<OBJ>;
    cmt->cfo.obj = cmt;
    cmt->tobj = _tobj;
    cmt->slot = _Slot;
  }

  _pri template<class OBJ>
  _sta boolean _Sender::_Dispatch(void *_tobj, Event *_ev){
    ConnMT<OBJ> *cmt = S(ConnMT<OBJ>*,_tobj);
    return (cmt->tobj->*cmt->slot)(_ev);
  }

And of course this is a primitive event mechanism which requires
an Event class to be used.  

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)


From web at loomcom.com  Tue Aug 28 03:06:14 2018
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 10:06:14 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <1535389574.3616679.1487699024.54D526CE@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018, at 8:54 AM, Mary Ann Horton wrote:
> Inside AT&T (but outside research) there was considerable pressure to
> use AT&T products (3B, System V, BLIT/5620, Datakit) rather than the
> externally developing Sun/Ethernet/TCP suite, especially in the mid-
> late 1980s.  We all (mostly) hated them and wanted Suns, but we were
> told "eat your own dog food."  The 3B20 and 3B5 were awful, but the
> 3B2 had potential.  Once we got a working TCP/IP network in Bell Labs
> the tide turned in favor of Suns.> 
> On 08/24/2018 09:06 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
>> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 11:13 AM Seth Morabito
>> <web at loomcom.com> wrote:>>> 
>>> ...
>>> I've begun to wonder whether 3B2 hardware was used very much inside
>>> of Bell Labs.>> I'd be curious to hear of people that actually used it.  AT&T forced
>> you to buy one with SVR3 as the porting base (I'd have never had
>> bought the one we had a Stellar otherwise).>> The only time I ever knew anyone run one, was to check to see the
>> behavior of some code/validation testing of RFS *etc*...[...]

Thank you all for your many replies!

I have a soft spot for the 3B2 because I've put so much work into
reverse engineering it and understanding it, but I can absolutely
understand why everyone wanted Suns. The 3B2 was a funny architecture,
and unless it had been a breakout hit right from the start, I can't
imagine a path that would have led to 3B2s taking over the world.
-Seth
--
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180827/669d0392/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Tue Aug 28 03:33:36 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 13:33:36 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>

below...

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 12:04 PM Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

> Inside AT&T (but outside research) there was considerable pressure to use
> AT&T products (3B, System V, BLIT/5620, Datakit) rather than the externally
> developing Sun/Ethernet/TCP suite, especially in the mid-late 1980s.  We
> all (mostly) hated them and wanted Suns, but we were told "eat your own dog
> food."
>
That was always my impression.     IIRC Mt. Xinu made a poster (and Kolstad
made a series of buttons) stating "4.2 > V"  I remember somebody (ber
probably) had it hanging in Whippany and certain supervisors were not
amsussed.

The 3B20 and 3B5 were awful, but the 3B2 had potential.
>
It was not so much they we awful IMO, is that they were nothing special -
too little too late.   The 3B20 (the only computer I even knew with a 'pull
starter'), was basically a 1MIP 780 and took the same resources (machine
room, multiple 19" cabinets, etc); when a 68020 based Masscomp, Apollo or
Sun was at 4-5 MIPS and fit under your desk.   As I said, fighting the last
war.

The 3B2 got the size and performance more inline, but the SW was still
behind and by them it was arguable if a BLIT over a serial line could
compete with the builtin graphics.   For the former, did the 3B2 only run
SRV3 and SRV4?   The others ran SVR0-2 which was not even close to BSD.  By
SVR3 the OS finally got better.    BILT had some great stuff, but I think
the shear volume of programmers using X-Windows, particularly once it ran
on super cheap HW (*i.e.* Wintel based) it was tough.



> Once we got a working TCP/IP network in Bell Labs the tide turned in favor
> of Suns
>
Although by the time of its release, the default system for

SRV4 was Wintel.

Clem
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180827/9a0c35c4/attachment.html>

From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 05:59:09 2018
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 15:59:09 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp9Vtv3KD93+HkYet=TJWJmR84FsgjkJzc_cJ6nE3ntHgg@mail.gmail.com>

We (at the Labs outside of 11127) were definitely forced to use the 3B
series, despite its unbelievable lack of documentation (and floating point,
for the 3B20s). Having to eat your own dog food doesn't make it palatable,
it just prevents you from doing something worthwhile, and dislike those who
prepare the menu. I'd be happy to apologize, if the 3Bs had proved their
worth.

On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 1:33 PM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> below...
>
> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 12:04 PM Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:
>
>> Inside AT&T (but outside research) there was considerable pressure to use
>> AT&T products (3B, System V, BLIT/5620, Datakit) rather than the externally
>> developing Sun/Ethernet/TCP suite, especially in the mid-late 1980s.  We
>> all (mostly) hated them and wanted Suns, but we were told "eat your own dog
>> food."
>>
> That was always my impression.     IIRC Mt. Xinu made a poster (and
> Kolstad made a series of buttons) stating "4.2 > V"  I remember somebody
> (ber probably) had it hanging in Whippany and certain supervisors were not
> amsussed.
>
> The 3B20 and 3B5 were awful, but the 3B2 had potential.
>>
> It was not so much they we awful IMO, is that they were nothing special -
> too little too late.   The 3B20 (the only computer I even knew with a 'pull
> starter'), was basically a 1MIP 780 and took the same resources (machine
> room, multiple 19" cabinets, etc); when a 68020 based Masscomp, Apollo or
> Sun was at 4-5 MIPS and fit under your desk.   As I said, fighting the last
> war.
>
> The 3B2 got the size and performance more inline, but the SW was still
> behind and by them it was arguable if a BLIT over a serial line could
> compete with the builtin graphics.   For the former, did the 3B2 only run
> SRV3 and SRV4?   The others ran SVR0-2 which was not even close to BSD.  By
> SVR3 the OS finally got better.    BILT had some great stuff, but I think
> the shear volume of programmers using X-Windows, particularly once it ran
> on super cheap HW (*i.e.* Wintel based) it was tough.
>
>
>
>> Once we got a working TCP/IP network in Bell Labs the tide turned in
>> favor of Suns
>>
> Although by the time of its release, the default system for
>
> SRV4 was Wintel.
>
> Clem
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180827/b9cc1005/attachment.html>

From brad at anduin.eldar.org  Tue Aug 28 06:27:32 2018
From: brad at anduin.eldar.org (Brad Spencer)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 16:27:32 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAC0cEp9Vtv3KD93+HkYet=TJWJmR84FsgjkJzc_cJ6nE3ntHgg@mail.gmail.com>
 (jpl.jpl@gmail.com)
Message-ID: <xonpny3mu6j.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>

"John P. Linderman" <jpl.jpl at gmail.com> writes:

> We (at the Labs outside of 11127) were definitely forced to use the 3B
> series, despite its unbelievable lack of documentation (and floating point,
> for the 3B20s). Having to eat your own dog food doesn't make it palatable,
> it just prevents you from doing something worthwhile, and dislike those who
> prepare the menu. I'd be happy to apologize, if the 3Bs had proved their
> worth.

[snip]


I was at 6200 Broad Street in Reynoldsburg in the late 1990s to early
2000s and while the group I was a part of was not forced to use the 3B
series for our product, we did get forced into using GIS [a.k.a. NCR]
systems after NCR was purchased.  The OS running on it was some sort of
SVR4, pretty vanilla, if I recall correctly.  I just remember it being
buggy.  That version of the product was sold to a single domestic US
customer.  All of the rest of the domestic customers waited for the
HP-UX port which happened after it was obvious no one wanted the NCR
product.  The product that I was a part of was old even at the time,
having been ported to the VAX [SVR3], test ported to SunOS 4.x, Tandem
and the AT&T rebranded variation [SVR3, and SVR4], GIS [SVR4] and HP
[HP-UX, lots of versions].  I have heard since that the product is still
around and runs on Linux at this point.




-- 
Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS - http://anduin.eldar.org



From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Aug 28 10:24:12 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 10:24:12 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 27 Aug 2018, Clem Cole wrote:

> That was always my impression.     IIRC Mt. Xinu made a poster (and 
> Kolstad made a series of buttons) stating "4.2 > V"  I remember somebody 
> (ber probably) had it hanging in Whippany and certain supervisors were 
> not amsussed.

I remember seeing a photo of that button.  Somewhere (I think) I have a 
PS/PDF (or was it a sticker?) of "Intel outside" which I stuck to my 
SparcStation.

Unfortunately the latter part of my career was having to support SysVile 
and pretending that I liked it...

-- Dave

From lm at mcvoy.com  Tue Aug 28 10:30:57 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 17:30:57 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:24:12AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Unfortunately the latter part of my career was having to support SysVile and
> pretending that I liked it...

I don't think anyone really liked it.  Maybe Roger Faulkner.  And there
are the Joyent crew.  Even they, when I told them I had tried it and
wasn't impressed, asked if I had /opt/GNU/bin in my path first?  Huh?
Decades have gone by, Sun is gone, and they are still cleaning to the
compatibilty argument for /usr/bin?  SunOS was the system that everyone
used because they wanted to, Solaris was what people used because they
had to.


From wkt at tuhs.org  Tue Aug 28 11:14:44 2018
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 11:14:44 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20180828011444.GA20613@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:24:12AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> I remember seeing a photo of that button.  Somewhere (I think) I have a
> PS/PDF (or was it a sticker?) of "Intel outside" which I stuck to my
> SparcStation.

I made a "Satan Inside" PS file once, along with a "Downgrade to Solaris"
PS file. Must dig them out ....

Cheers, Warren



From arnold at skeeve.com  Tue Aug 28 16:01:50 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 00:01:50 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>

Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Decades have gone by, Sun is gone, and they are still cleaning [sic] to the
> compatibilty argument for /usr/bin?

As hard as it is to believe in this day and age, there are still plenty
of places where that compatibility is what sells systems.

> SunOS was the system that everyone used because they wanted to, Solaris
> was what people used because they had to.

Nicely put!

Arnold


From ggm at algebras.org  Tue Aug 28 16:11:38 2018
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 16:11:38 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn1A+eKb2aYTJBExnRaHdRXGrg4kQ_ryUeU1CMxDuuaK8Q@mail.gmail.com>

we pretty much bounced a UNISYS library information system on using
',' (comma) as the separator on IPv4 dotted-quads. If there isn't a
dot, how can it be one?

I think the OS I used with a cd command which could walk down, but
walking "up" was a cd to root and a walk down -1 also fell out of
favour.

The only thing I remember doing on the apollo domain workstations was
tuning their sendmail config. nobody ran commands on it, nobody could
reliably compile.

HP and its HP compatibility library. and the really badly written BSD
compatibility layer.

oddly, OSF/1 and RS/6000 AIX both survived. maybe you can have enough
lipstick on a pig. reboot to re-apply bindings. well i *guess* that
works, but gee, was it really so hard to move shared library through
some staging process? and having to boot into a mini OS to do
filesystem repairs. please.

none of these things were fatal but somehow all of these things were.
On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:02 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> > Decades have gone by, Sun is gone, and they are still cleaning [sic] to the
> > compatibilty argument for /usr/bin?
>
> As hard as it is to believe in this day and age, there are still plenty
> of places where that compatibility is what sells systems.
>
> > SunOS was the system that everyone used because they wanted to, Solaris
> > was what people used because they had to.
>
> Nicely put!
>
> Arnold


From arnold at skeeve.com  Tue Aug 28 16:42:32 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 00:42:32 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAKr6gn1A+eKb2aYTJBExnRaHdRXGrg4kQ_ryUeU1CMxDuuaK8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <CAKr6gn1A+eKb2aYTJBExnRaHdRXGrg4kQ_ryUeU1CMxDuuaK8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201808280642.w7S6gWYX002026@freefriends.org>

George Michaelson <ggm at algebras.org> wrote:

> none of these things were fatal but somehow all of these things were.

This goes back to Clem's argument about economics. The increasing power
and declining cost of Intel HW combined with the _almost_ neglible cost
of Linux combined to kill off almost all the legacy Unixes.

That Linux modelled many things after SunOS also helped.

But I can testify from experience at my last job that AIX, HP/UX and
Solaris are all still in heavy use at major companies, mainly hosting
big database systems, but still there and not going away too soon.

Arnold


From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Tue Aug 28 21:54:19 2018
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 04:54:19 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
In-Reply-To: <20180826052931.GA14695@wopr>
References: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20180826052931.GA14695@wopr>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtDeUg9k+qC-bMwOLgt8w3AMtaL7QSJiypWJ3U9nF6EqeQ@mail.gmail.com>

This is all so asinine it sounds like it’s run by a random haughty social
club of people far detached from systems and UNIX and especially far from
publishing systems papers that actually advance the art. Sometimes it is
necessary to let an org know it’s become a joke.  I’d prefer to attend and
assist with something not affiliated with Usenix after reading this thread.

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 10:36 PM Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 10:31:27AM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> >
> > What do you think? 11 months to go.
> >
> > Thanks, Warren
> >
> > P.S. Nokia Bell Labs are also going to organise something, possibly a
> month
> > earlier but I have no solid details yet.
>
>
> Unsenix stopped being Usenix when they rode SAGE into the ground and
> chased out all the sysadmins.  I appreciate the efforts of a lot of
> people there to keep the flag up, but I've never understood the decision
> to try to become ACM Lite (pastes great, less filling).
>
> I'm super interested in what Bell Labs has planned, and anything
> happening at the Living Computer Museum as well.  Maybe if we ask nicely
> they'll let us play with the Blit!
>
> khm
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180828/f9c50fa1/attachment.html>

From krewat at kilonet.net  Tue Aug 28 23:13:02 2018
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 09:13:02 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <201808280642.w7S6gWYX002026@freefriends.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <CAKr6gn1A+eKb2aYTJBExnRaHdRXGrg4kQ_ryUeU1CMxDuuaK8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808280642.w7S6gWYX002026@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <51b9703c-57ac-d3cb-0ec2-70d617c9d77c@kilonet.net>

On 8/28/2018 2:42 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> But I can testify from experience at my last job that AIX, HP/UX and
> Solaris are all still in heavy use at major companies, mainly hosting
> big database systems, but still there and not going away too soon.

If you haven't tried Solaris 11, at least 11.2 or later, check it out. A 
lot of GNU stuff is available, and you can "pkg install" apache, tomcat, 
PHP, MYSQL, and a slew of other things that are actually being kept up 
to date. The recent PHP 7.1.17 exploit fix was put out in the regular 
Solaris 11 SRU a few weeks after it was publicly released. And that was 
supposedly after the "mass layoff" of Solaris engineers. I've also 
noticed quite a few bug fixes for Solaris internals and device drivers 
since then so Oracle is still maintaining Solaris. I think their most 
recent support time line puts Solaris support out to 2030 or so.

I've installed and maintain a few Solaris 11.1 (since upgraded to 11.3) 
clusters for Oracle databases on Intel (Dell) blades with fiber channel, 
and with ZFS they've been rock-solid.

Side note, and I probably already said this a long time ago here, but 
back in the early days of Linux kernel 2.6, I complained on one of the 
mailing lists about the removal of a way to control the size of the disk 
cache, along with the tendency for the kernel to page out applications 
in favor of more disk cache. The snobby answer I got back from a 
developer was that (paraphrased) "We know better than you about memory 
allocation" or some such garbage. I've always turned my nose up at Linux 
since then. I figure if that level of arrogance had infested it to that 
degree, and an open-source project at that, I wanted no part of it. 
Since then, of course, they have made some changes that make it less 
likely to do that, but I have a recent Oracle Linux (Redhat) system here 
running Oracle eBusiness that is currently 2GB into swap, and has 10G of 
disk cache. Swappiness is set to 0, and other tunables were altered that 
should have stopped that. That's just plain dumb.




From gilles at gravier.org  Wed Aug 29 00:53:40 2018
From: gilles at gravier.org (Gilles Gravier)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 16:53:40 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
Message-ID: <CABq8+zf41d-E-D=Ru4PbM_9B+aawHfEPQ-_Xe0SRefg6xLwY3w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!

If I wanted to run 4.3BSD on an x86 box (VirtualBox? QEMM? other emu?)...
anybody has suggestions? Where can I find media for 4.3BSD (if any are
legitimately accessible)?

Or on a Raspberry Pi? :)

Thanks!

Gilles

-- 
*Gilles Gravier*  - Gilles at Gravier.org
GSM : +33618347147 and +41794728437
Skype : ggravier | PGP Key : 0x8DE6D026
<http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x8DE6D026&op=index>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180828/3fba2859/attachment.html>

From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 01:05:11 2018
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 11:05:11 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <CABq8+zf41d-E-D=Ru4PbM_9B+aawHfEPQ-_Xe0SRefg6xLwY3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABq8+zf41d-E-D=Ru4PbM_9B+aawHfEPQ-_Xe0SRefg6xLwY3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBdibM0bfDeNgGiy0A-GiCJkCOxmFJ9z8jV+ZFQi+L4kQA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 10:54, Gilles Gravier <gilles at gravier.org> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> If I wanted to run 4.3BSD on an x86 box (VirtualBox? QEMM? other emu?)...
> anybody has suggestions? Where can I find media for 4.3BSD (if any are
> legitimately accessible)?
>
> Or on a Raspberry Pi? :)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Gilles
>
>
>
There are full instructions using SIMH here:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH

-Henry
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180828/8cc76582/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Aug 29 01:05:21 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 11:05:21 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <CABq8+zf41d-E-D=Ru4PbM_9B+aawHfEPQ-_Xe0SRefg6xLwY3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABq8+zf41d-E-D=Ru4PbM_9B+aawHfEPQ-_Xe0SRefg6xLwY3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PAatPhmUgm5_EMrVrvAys0rserFv6O3KrgXiE=t=wUFg@mail.gmail.com>

simh is the traditional way it's done.   Google simh and 4.3BSD.
 configure simh set it up as a 780, with RP06 or RM0[35] drives, HT tapes,
and it should pretty much just work per the BSD installation
ᐧ

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:54 AM Gilles Gravier <gilles at gravier.org> wrote:

> Hi!
>
> If I wanted to run 4.3BSD on an x86 box (VirtualBox? QEMM? other emu?)...
> anybody has suggestions? Where can I find media for 4.3BSD (if any are
> legitimately accessible)?
>
> Or on a Raspberry Pi? :)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Gilles
>
> --
> *Gilles Gravier*  - Gilles at Gravier.org
> GSM : +33618347147 and +41794728437
> Skype : ggravier | PGP Key : 0x8DE6D026
> <http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x8DE6D026&op=index>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180828/34272616/attachment.html>

From gilles at gravier.org  Wed Aug 29 01:21:42 2018
From: gilles at gravier.org (Gilles Gravier)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 17:21:42 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PAatPhmUgm5_EMrVrvAys0rserFv6O3KrgXiE=t=wUFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABq8+zf41d-E-D=Ru4PbM_9B+aawHfEPQ-_Xe0SRefg6xLwY3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PAatPhmUgm5_EMrVrvAys0rserFv6O3KrgXiE=t=wUFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABq8+zcayWP9JyLXJ_JJzuMsswodXnhgyZBxiig-ajnsMWL1Ew@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Henry and Clem!

I should be all set!

Gilles

Le mar. 28 août 2018 à 17:05, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> a écrit :

> simh is the traditional way it's done.   Google simh and 4.3BSD.
>  configure simh set it up as a 780, with RP06 or RM0[35] drives, HT tapes,
> and it should pretty much just work per the BSD installation
> ᐧ
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 10:54 AM Gilles Gravier <gilles at gravier.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> If I wanted to run 4.3BSD on an x86 box (VirtualBox? QEMM? other emu?)...
>> anybody has suggestions? Where can I find media for 4.3BSD (if any are
>> legitimately accessible)?
>>
>> Or on a Raspberry Pi? :)
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Gilles
>>
>> --
>> *Gilles Gravier*  - Gilles at Gravier.org
>> GSM : +33618347147 and +41794728437
>> Skype : ggravier | PGP Key : 0x8DE6D026
>> <http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x8DE6D026&op=index>
>>
>

-- 
*Gilles Gravier*  - Gilles at Gravier.org
GSM : +33618347147 and +41794728437
Skype : ggravier | PGP Key : 0x8DE6D026
<http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x8DE6D026&op=index>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180828/e590af0f/attachment.html>

From paul.winalski at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 03:47:31 2018
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 13:47:31 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VT5rtQKmSpZGeZyrsOo-XyYUgHq5j2aOJfjxMYkti67ag@mail.gmail.com>

On 8/27/18, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> I remember seeing a photo of that button.  Somewhere (I think) I have a
> PS/PDF (or was it a sticker?) of "Intel outside" which I stuck to my
> SparcStation.

We stuck an International House of Pancakes "Powered by Pancakes"
sticker on the power supply box of our IBM mainframe.

-Paul W.


From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Aug 29 08:33:53 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 08:33:53 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 28 Aug 2018, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:

> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

[...]

>> SunOS was the system that everyone used because they wanted to, Solaris 
>> was what people used because they had to.
>
> Nicely put!

Signature material, in fact!  I loved SunOS 4.1.4, and had to eat a shit 
sandwich when they went to Solaris (but continue to run BSD-like systems 
at home; first BSDi, then FreeBSD; the MacBook is at least vaguely 
BSD-ish, and the only reason that I also have Debian is to see what the 
penguins have broken this time).

-- Dave


From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Aug 29 08:39:28 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 08:39:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <201808280642.w7S6gWYX002026@freefriends.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <CAKr6gn1A+eKb2aYTJBExnRaHdRXGrg4kQ_ryUeU1CMxDuuaK8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808280642.w7S6gWYX002026@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290834280.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 28 Aug 2018, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:

> But I can testify from experience at my last job that AIX, HP/UX and 
> Solaris are all still in heavy use at major companies, mainly hosting 
> big database systems, but still there and not going away too soon.

Yep, that was my last job too, until I was made redundant at age 58 (ever 
tried to find a job at that age, having specialist skills?).

-- Dave


From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Aug 29 09:30:00 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 09:30:00 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtDeUg9k+qC-bMwOLgt8w3AMtaL7QSJiypWJ3U9nF6EqeQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20180826052931.GA14695@wopr>
 <CAK7dMtDeUg9k+qC-bMwOLgt8w3AMtaL7QSJiypWJ3U9nF6EqeQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290917190.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

I know that I'll probably get into trouble for writing this (I'm a born 
stirrer, coming from a military family), but...

On Tue, 28 Aug 2018, Kevin Bowling wrote:

> This is all so asinine it sounds like it’s run by a random haughty 
> social club of people far detached from systems and UNIX and especially 
> far from publishing systems papers that actually advance the art. 
> Sometimes it is necessary to let an org know it’s become a joke.  I’d 
> prefer to attend and assist with something not affiliated with Usenix 
> after reading this thread.

I'm having trouble thinking of an OS (still in current use) that has 
remained *mostly* unchanged over 50 years.  Yes, Unix has certainly 
evolved, but is still recognisable as "do one thing, and do it well".

It's just a shame that they seem to have broken the other philosophy of 
"everything looks like a file".

-- Dave

From ggm at algebras.org  Wed Aug 29 09:37:51 2018
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 09:37:51 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Usenix: no official Unix 50th celebration, apparently
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290917190.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <20180826003127.GA18905@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <20180826052931.GA14695@wopr>
 <CAK7dMtDeUg9k+qC-bMwOLgt8w3AMtaL7QSJiypWJ3U9nF6EqeQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290917190.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn0jD8CzQDDrvsoztRpKaVAZAgUgN+MZEHEwcq9Dz6weyA@mail.gmail.com>

sockets broke that. ioctl() always felt like special magic to me, but
sockets+ioctl is not just special magic, its arcane.

I think part of the problem is that a network binding actually isn't
"just like a file" because it incudes things like out of order
delivery, and control (side) channel.

TBF, sparse files and network file systems is another place things
broke down. For some reason, device-special and sparse files wound up
being in the too hard basket for network mounts.

I know Lindsay Marshall of old, so have a soft spot for the newcastle
connections (.../mounthost/path/to/file) syntax. I always liked this.
On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:30 AM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>
> I know that I'll probably get into trouble for writing this (I'm a born
> stirrer, coming from a military family), but...
>
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2018, Kevin Bowling wrote:
>
> > This is all so asinine it sounds like it’s run by a random haughty
> > social club of people far detached from systems and UNIX and especially
> > far from publishing systems papers that actually advance the art.
> > Sometimes it is necessary to let an org know it’s become a joke.  I’d
> > prefer to attend and assist with something not affiliated with Usenix
> > after reading this thread.
>
> I'm having trouble thinking of an OS (still in current use) that has
> remained *mostly* unchanged over 50 years.  Yes, Unix has certainly
> evolved, but is still recognisable as "do one thing, and do it well".
>
> It's just a shame that they seem to have broken the other philosophy of
> "everything looks like a file".
>
> -- Dave


From skogtun at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 10:36:47 2018
From: skogtun at gmail.com (Harald Arnesen)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 02:36:47 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>

Dave Horsfall [2018-08-29 00:33]:

> Signature material, in fact!  I loved SunOS 4.1.4, and had to eat a shit 
> sandwich when they went to Solaris (but continue to run BSD-like systems 
> at home; first BSDi, then FreeBSD; the MacBook is at least vaguely 
> BSD-ish, and the only reason that I also have Debian is to see what the 
> penguins have broken this time).

So you don't think MacOS has broken more than the penguins have?
-- 
Hilsen Harald


From lm at mcvoy.com  Wed Aug 29 10:46:27 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 17:46:27 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 02:36:47AM +0200, Harald Arnesen wrote:
> Dave Horsfall [2018-08-29 00:33]:
> 
> > Signature material, in fact!  I loved SunOS 4.1.4, and had to eat a shit 
> > sandwich when they went to Solaris (but continue to run BSD-like systems 
> > at home; first BSDi, then FreeBSD; the MacBook is at least vaguely 
> > BSD-ish, and the only reason that I also have Debian is to see what the 
> > penguins have broken this time).
> 
> So you don't think MacOS has broken more than the penguins have?

MacOS is based on Mach and Mach was a big steaming mess of promises that
were not so much.  Easy for me to say, I haven't written a VM system from
scratch and they did, so credit them for that.  But I've been in a VM
system that was oh so much easier to read and understand, the SunOS 4.x
VM system done by Joe Moran (mojo at sun.com).  That guy had crazy skills,
well beyond mine or anyone else I can think of.  When he quit the story
is that Bill Joy stopped him in the parking lot and offered him crazy
amounts of money to stay.

So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not impressed.
I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it wasn't
multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.

The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.


From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Aug 29 11:06:05 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:06:05 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Harald Arnesen wrote:

>> Signature material, in fact!  I loved SunOS 4.1.4, and had to eat a 
>> shit sandwich when they went to Solaris (but continue to run BSD-like 
>> systems at home; first BSDi, then FreeBSD; the MacBook is at least 
>> vaguely BSD-ish, and the only reason that I also have Debian is to see 
>> what the penguins have broken this time).
>
> So you don't think MacOS has broken more than the penguins have?

Stuff I write on FreeBSD pretty much works on my Mac (the latter has mo 
serial ports, and thus uses a dodgy USB/serial cable with an equally-dodgy 
driver that hangs the system to the point of requiring a *power cycle*).

And vice-versa; I had to learn how to control DTR etc on a genuine
serial port on the FreeBSD box (I am writing a user-level driver for
a serial device).

As for Penguin/OS (and trying to figure out just which header file uses 
which flags, when I'm using low-level Perl I/O), then forget it.

What really blew my gasket is that "stty -f" on *BSD is "stty -F" on 
Penguin/OS, despite them copying every other flag.

I had a look at how they (Linux) wrote stty.c, and nearly threw up.

So, yes, that's pretty much my answer...

-- Dave


From tytso at mit.edu  Wed Aug 29 13:23:10 2018
From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Y. Ts'o)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 23:23:10 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:06:05AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> 
> What really blew my gasket is that "stty -f" on *BSD is "stty -F" on
> Penguin/OS, despite them copying every other flag.

I'm pretty sure the addition of "stty -f" and "stty -F" is a fairly
late innovation.  i.e., it wasn't there when Linux "copied" stty's
user interface.

In BSD 4.3 and early Linux (which is when I still was maintaining
Linux's serial driver) you always had to do:

	stty dec < /dev/ttyS0

Really, why did those young whippersnappers had to add an option, when
redirection worked perfectly well and required one less character to
type?  :-)

					- Ted


From wkt at tuhs.org  Wed Aug 29 14:36:39 2018
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:36:39 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
Message-ID: <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:23:10PM -0400, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
> 	stty dec < /dev/ttyS0
> 
> Really, why did those young whippersnappers had to add an option, when
> redirection worked perfectly well and required one less character to
> type?  :-)

This reminded me of other semi-cryptic commands. I remember mistyping
"kill -1 1" as "kill -9 1" with the inevitable consequences.

	Warren


From grog at lemis.com  Wed Aug 29 15:06:40 2018
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 15:06:40 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
Message-ID: <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 28 August 2018 at 23:23:10 -0400, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:06:05AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>>
>> What really blew my gasket is that "stty -f" on *BSD is "stty -F" on
>> Penguin/OS, despite them copying every other flag.
>
> I'm pretty sure the addition of "stty -f" and "stty -F" is a fairly
> late innovation.  i.e., it wasn't there when Linux "copied" stty's
> user interface.
>
> In BSD 4.3 and early Linux (which is when I still was maintaining
> Linux's serial driver) you always had to do:
>
> 	stty dec < /dev/ttyS0

Checking mckusick's source distribution, it seems that the -f option
(along with sanity) came in with 4.4BSD.  It was in the original
sources imported into FreeBSD.  4.3BSD had such a bizarre syntax that
I suspect whatever you emulated must have come from a later date.

But options are an issue, notably with GNU software, which has a
completely different lineage.  Just look at FreeBSD ls(1) and GNU
ls(1).

> Really, why did those young whippersnappers had to add an option, when
> redirection worked perfectly well and required one less character to
> type?  :-)

Creeping featurism!

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 163 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/7d93051a/attachment.sig>

From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Aug 29 15:25:22 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 23:25:22 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290834280.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <CAKr6gn1A+eKb2aYTJBExnRaHdRXGrg4kQ_ryUeU1CMxDuuaK8Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <201808280642.w7S6gWYX002026@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290834280.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <201808290525.w7T5PMci005806@freefriends.org>

Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Aug 2018, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
>
> > But I can testify from experience at my last job that AIX, HP/UX and 
> > Solaris are all still in heavy use at major companies, mainly hosting 
> > big database systems, but still there and not going away too soon.
>
> Yep, that was my last job too, until I was made redundant at age 58 (ever 
> tried to find a job at that age, having specialist skills?).
>
> -- Dave

That's exactly what happened to me, at the same age.  Fortunately the
market where I live (Israel) is super hot for C++ / Linux developers,
and I landed a job at what so far is a reasonable start-up company.
("Praise the Lord", as they say.)

I hope you've found something.

Arnold


From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Aug 29 15:29:15 2018
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 23:29:15 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org>

Changed the subject line.

Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
> and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not impressed.
> I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it wasn't
> multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.
>
> The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.

So, is the SunOS code available in a way that would let people hack
on it? They had ported it to 386 (roadrunner?), so maybe it'd be
possible to revive it and bring it into the 21st century.

Just a thought,

Arnold


From arrigo at alchemistowl.org  Wed Aug 29 17:03:05 2018
From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 09:03:05 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <DCC931CD-2BCB-41DC-858D-45508E51A245@alchemistowl.org>

On 29 Aug 2018, at 03:06, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> Stuff I write on FreeBSD pretty much works on my Mac (the latter has mo serial ports, and thus uses a dodgy USB/serial cable with an equally-dodgy driver that hangs the system to the point of requiring a *power cycle*).

I’m glad I’m not the only one who has infinite problems with these dongles. I have a sacred old laptop running OpenBSD precisely to get serial consoles working as a) it has an RS-232 port and b) the drivers are sane. I have a USB-serial dongle which on Mac, once the driver is installed, creates a device called /dev/cu.Bluetooth-Serial-SiLo. Took me an eternity to figure out it was that because the docs had nothing about which device file it actually created and, well, considering it is a physical cable I had eliminated Bluetooth to begin with… I confess to looking at the creation date on the device file and then saying “naah, it cannot be… oh… it is…”

I do miss SunOS too - because of a single user with great powers we had to upgrade a SparcStation 10 to Solaris back in 1994 and the performance took an instant nosedive. Not to mention the hours spent getting tools to make it actually work (i.e. 99% of the GNU project).

Arrigo



From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Aug 29 18:43:14 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 18:43:14 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291831010.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 28 Aug 2018, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:

> I'm pretty sure the addition of "stty -f" and "stty -F" is a fairly late 
> innovation.  i.e., it wasn't there when Linux "copied" stty's user 
> interface.

Yeah, I suppose that's it, but in true GNU style they also have 
"--file=/dev/XXX", so why not "-f"?

> In BSD 4.3 and early Linux (which is when I still was maintaining 
> Linux's serial driver) you always had to do:
>
> 	stty dec < /dev/ttyS0
>
> Really, why did those young whippersnappers had to add an option, when 
> redirection worked perfectly well and required one less character to 
> type?  :-)

Ah, but then the shell does the opening, which might not be the mode that 
you wanted; I was doing some funky I/O redirection at the time as well.

-- Dave


From schaiba at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 20:21:54 2018
From: schaiba at gmail.com (Rares Aioanei)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:21:54 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBdibM0bfDeNgGiy0A-GiCJkCOxmFJ9z8jV+ZFQi+L4kQA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABq8+zf41d-E-D=Ru4PbM_9B+aawHfEPQ-_Xe0SRefg6xLwY3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdibM0bfDeNgGiy0A-GiCJkCOxmFJ9z8jV+ZFQi+L4kQA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABasXZVTQcPsLwifEx2R7ZpcDX4ApTgwPiCTdk9yjDex8UbrnA@mail.gmail.com>

Hey,

Link doesn't seem to work, I get "Connection reset". Can anyone else confirm?
On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:15 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 10:54, Gilles Gravier <gilles at gravier.org> wrote:
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> If I wanted to run 4.3BSD on an x86 box (VirtualBox? QEMM? other emu?)... anybody has suggestions? Where can I find media for 4.3BSD (if any are legitimately accessible)?
>>
>> Or on a Raspberry Pi? :)
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Gilles
>>
>>
>
> There are full instructions using SIMH here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH
>
> -Henry
>


-- 
Rares Aioanei


From gilles at gravier.org  Wed Aug 29 20:27:53 2018
From: gilles at gravier.org (Gilles Gravier)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:27:53 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <CABasXZVTQcPsLwifEx2R7ZpcDX4ApTgwPiCTdk9yjDex8UbrnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABq8+zf41d-E-D=Ru4PbM_9B+aawHfEPQ-_Xe0SRefg6xLwY3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBdibM0bfDeNgGiy0A-GiCJkCOxmFJ9z8jV+ZFQi+L4kQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABasXZVTQcPsLwifEx2R7ZpcDX4ApTgwPiCTdk9yjDex8UbrnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABq8+ze=WZUEDGWbTudTrR_qWHOchMRpuH5c-T=A1CwnzCDevQ@mail.gmail.com>

Works from my cell phone and my PC. Maybe temporarily slashdotted? 😎

Gilles

On Wed 29 Aug 2018, 12:22 Rares Aioanei, <schaiba at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey,
>
> Link doesn't seem to work, I get "Connection reset". Can anyone else
> confirm?
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:15 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 at 10:54, Gilles Gravier <gilles at gravier.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi!
> >>
> >> If I wanted to run 4.3BSD on an x86 box (VirtualBox? QEMM? other
> emu?)... anybody has suggestions? Where can I find media for 4.3BSD (if any
> are legitimately accessible)?
> >>
> >> Or on a Raspberry Pi? :)
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Gilles
> >>
> >>
> >
> > There are full instructions using SIMH here:
> http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_4.3_BSD_on_SIMH
> >
> > -Henry
> >
>
>
> --
> Rares Aioanei
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/3e8234c1/attachment.html>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Aug 29 22:23:55 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 08:23:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
Message-ID: <20180829122355.EF20918C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Rares Aioanei

    > Link doesn't seem to work, I get "Connection reset".

Which link - the gunkies.org (Computer History Wiki) one?

It's working for me at the moment.

Does your browser accepts non-HTTPS URLs? (There's apparently a craze on
to denigrate them at the moment.)

     Noel


From schaiba at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 22:45:40 2018
From: schaiba at gmail.com (Rares Aioanei)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 15:45:40 +0300
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <20180829122355.EF20918C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180829122355.EF20918C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABasXZV8xTEV3PguVKjBahzFGO2xnu3htK1N_J6prjdeUPoajA@mail.gmail.com>

gunkies.org works. The URL for getting the sets doesn't
(http://unix-archive.huihoo.org/4BSD/Distributions/4.2BSD/)
On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 3:23 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>     > From: Rares Aioanei
>
>     > Link doesn't seem to work, I get "Connection reset".
>
> Which link - the gunkies.org (Computer History Wiki) one?
>
> It's working for me at the moment.
>
> Does your browser accepts non-HTTPS URLs? (There's apparently a craze on
> to denigrate them at the moment.)
>
>      Noel



-- 
Rares Aioanei


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Aug 29 23:11:13 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 09:11:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
Message-ID: <20180829131113.D4D9C18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Rares Aioanei

    > gunkies.org works. The URL for getting the sets doesn't

Ah, OK.

Link-rot; sigh. The bane of the Web!

If someone can provide a working alternative for you to use, I'll update the
page as well.

   Noel


From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Aug 29 23:28:37 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 09:28:37 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <20180829131113.D4D9C18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180829131113.D4D9C18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MT-7vQ-yZpeDjCPG2b9sQmLvwinibCU-f9Cxa4oOnMKg@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/UCB/4.2BSD/
ᐧ

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:11 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Rares Aioanei
>
>     > gunkies.org works. The URL for getting the sets doesn't
>
> Ah, OK.
>
> Link-rot; sigh. The bane of the Web!
>
> If someone can provide a working alternative for you to use, I'll update
> the
> page as well.
>
>    Noel
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/787db241/attachment.html>

From pechter at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 23:46:40 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 09:46:40 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MT-7vQ-yZpeDjCPG2b9sQmLvwinibCU-f9Cxa4oOnMKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180829131113.D4D9C18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAC20D2MT-7vQ-yZpeDjCPG2b9sQmLvwinibCU-f9Cxa4oOnMKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08e8ad39-1309-4947-ae8e-d10552416eaf.maildroid@localhost>

Just a plug for the 4.3+University of Wisconsin version on Simh.  You can build some of the more recent tools on it...

Also... If you run on the internet remember documented security exploits are decades old.  I recommend no open ports except for ssh if it will build and maybe UUCP.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>
To: Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Cc: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 9:29
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?

https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/UCB/4.2BSD/
ᐧ

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 9:11 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Rares Aioanei
>
>     > gunkies.org works. The URL for getting the sets doesn't
>
> Ah, OK.
>
> Link-rot; sigh. The bane of the Web!
>
> If someone can provide a working alternative for you to use, I'll update
> the
> page as well.
>
>    Noel
>


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Aug 29 23:56:53 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 09:56:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
Message-ID: <20180829135653.2276818C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Noel Chiappa

    > I'll update the page as well.

I have to do it since, after severe issues with spam, a login is required to
make changes.

If anyone is interested in adding content (please, we need more in just about
every area - I've done a lot of PDP-11's, but that's a fairly small corner
overall :-), please drop me a short line, and I'll set you up (just let me
know the account name you want, and what email address to associate with it).


    > From: William Pechter

    > Just a plug for the 4.3+University of Wisconsin version on Simh.

I don't think I see that in the TUHS repository that Clem just pointed to? Got a
URL?

Any chance I can convince you to add a bit of content about it? :-)

    Noel



From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug 30 00:25:12 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:25:12 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
Message-ID: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:07 AM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, 28 August 2018 at 23:23:10 -0400, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
> > On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:06:05AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> ....
>
>
> Creeping featurism!
>

No, I think its really is that many programmers that touch different
applications felt the need to pee on the code to feel that they left their
scent. 😘

Seriously, IMO the problem is you can never know what someone else really
values, so be careful at what you change.  Pike's 'cat -v' dissertation
b*tched at UCB for the some of the same issues.  Somewhere there is a
proper middle ground ( I think of as having good taste elegance).  BSD nor
Linux was no more 'perfect' that 6th or 7th edition.  Truth is a much as I
pine for the elegance, I don't want to run either of the later as my
day-2-day system in today's world and I >>loved<< running them when they
were what I had.

Rob has a real point and many of the changes really *are gratuitous* and
there *are better ways of doing* many things than adding a switch to old
command and reusing it because you can.  I also think the complaint of just
adding 'crap' because you could started with BSD but the cause wasn't that
people were bad -- there was address space relief over the PDP-11 and often
added a new switch/new functionality was easy to do, instead of creating a
whole new solution just deidcated to that problen only.  FWIW: sendmail is
my best example (useful tool that it was - there were/are much more elegant
solutions - sendmail should have been 'headerwriter' and smtpd should have
been a seperate program).

Dueling switches and functionality (dec vs -f bs -F) I fear is sometimes
ignorance of the past.  I fear there is some sort of belief we need to shed
the past because someone feeld the it gets in the way of the future (I'll
pick on my on son here - who things 2-3 years is 'old' and its time to
throw things away).  Truth is sometimes it might.  But I would rather
inject a stronger strain into the mix and let the users decide and for good
or bad, BSD did that to the original (v6/v7) and now Linux is doing/has
done it to much of BSD.

The compaint is the 'throwing the baby out with the bath water' behavior
that seems to often follow (see systemd issues on other mailing lists);
*i.e*. did you really gain something for this huge disruption.   To me when
something really new/a great innovation comes that should be celebrated.

BSD gave us VM and a number of 'useful' new utilities, and eventually an
networking API (al biet  not everyone liked it, sockets was good enough,
solved the problems and became a standard that allowed us to move on).
Mach (while Larry may not like the VM implementation), moved the bar for
the kernel's handling of memory a huge amount and almost won the uK war
(which IMO was a too bad).  BTW: other kernels would do nice VM's too, but
Mach was generally available (open source if you will and really was the
system the moived it forward).

That said, I give the Linux folks great credit for the addition of modules
was huge and it took BSD and the other UNIX systems a few years really pick
up that idea in the same way (yes Solaris, Tru64 and eventually HPUX etc..
had something too but again - my comment about being generally available
applies).

So here is the issue, how to do move the ball forward?   BSD, then Linux,
became the 'stronger strain' and pushed out the old version.   The problem
is the ROMs in my fingers (like Dave) never got reprogrammed so some of the
'new' becomes annoying.   Will I learned to like systemd?   We shall see...

Clem
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/4a02eaeb/attachment.html>

From tytso at mit.edu  Thu Aug 30 00:25:48 2018
From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Y. Ts'o)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:25:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
 <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 03:06:40PM +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> > In BSD 4.3 and early Linux (which is when I still was maintaining
> > Linux's serial driver) you always had to do:
> >
> > 	stty dec < /dev/ttyS0
> 
> Checking mckusick's source distribution, it seems that the -f option
> (along with sanity) came in with 4.4BSD.  It was in the original
> sources imported into FreeBSD.  4.3BSD had such a bizarre syntax that
> I suspect whatever you emulated must have come from a later date.

BSD 4.4 Lite was released in 1994.  (Lite2 was released in 1995.)

Linux was started in 1991, and we had a stty from very early on --- by
1992 at the latest.

Most of the Linux kernel developers from those early days cut their
teeth on BSD 4.3 and BSD 4.3 Reno, and were unwillingly frog-marched
from Sun OS 4.x to Slowlaris 2.x, and from IBM AOS (which was also BSD
4.3 based) to IBM AIX (thanks, AT&T) in their day jobs.

    	      	      	       	     	- Ted



From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Aug 30 00:40:37 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 07:40:37 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <20180829144037.GO317@mcvoy.com>

Sun never open sourced it.

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:29:15PM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> Changed the subject line.
> 
> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> > So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
> > and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not impressed.
> > I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it wasn't
> > multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.
> >
> > The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.
> 
> So, is the SunOS code available in a way that would let people hack
> on it? They had ported it to 386 (roadrunner?), so maybe it'd be
> possible to revive it and bring it into the 21st century.
> 
> Just a thought,
> 
> Arnold

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 


From crossd at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 00:41:02 2018
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:41:02 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>
References: <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:26 AM Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso at mit.edu> wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 03:06:40PM +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> > > In BSD 4.3 and early Linux (which is when I still was maintaining
> > > Linux's serial driver) you always had to do:
> > >
> > >     stty dec < /dev/ttyS0
> >
> > Checking mckusick's source distribution, it seems that the -f option
> > (along with sanity) came in with 4.4BSD.  It was in the original
> > sources imported into FreeBSD.  4.3BSD had such a bizarre syntax that
> > I suspect whatever you emulated must have come from a later date.
>
> BSD 4.4 Lite was released in 1994.  (Lite2 was released in 1995.)
>
> Linux was started in 1991, and we had a stty from very early on --- by
> 1992 at the latest.
>

I think that Greg is slightly mistaken; `stty` had `-f` documented in Net/2
(1991, though of course the entanglements there have been discussed), but
the option existed in Reno (1990, though it seems to be absent from the man
page).

Most of the Linux kernel developers from those early days cut their
> teeth on BSD 4.3 and BSD 4.3 Reno, and were unwillingly frog-marched
> from Sun OS 4.x to Slowlaris 2.x, and from IBM AOS (which was also BSD
> 4.3 based) to IBM AIX (thanks, AT&T) in their day jobs.
>

I'm curious who was using AOS, which was essentially Tahoe+NFS.
"Frog-marched" is an apt description of the forced migration from SunOS to
Solaris.

        - Dan C.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/caed8bdc/attachment.html>

From crossd at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 00:41:45 2018
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:41:45 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180829144037.GO317@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org> <20180829144037.GO317@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W54FizcyVwCsJTMC1zc=c-BhRzr94HwXKJMQtR-dO9qxQ@mail.gmail.com>

I wonder if they would consider doing it now. Oracle, I mean; the Solaris
code was opened up and an argument could be made that SunOS would be useful
for historical examination.

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:41 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Sun never open sourced it.
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:29:15PM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > Changed the subject line.
> >
> > Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >
> > > So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
> > > and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not impressed.
> > > I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it
> wasn't
> > > multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.
> > >
> > > The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.
> >
> > So, is the SunOS code available in a way that would let people hack
> > on it? They had ported it to 386 (roadrunner?), so maybe it'd be
> > possible to revive it and bring it into the 21st century.
> >
> > Just a thought,
> >
> > Arnold
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/2eafe534/attachment.html>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Aug 30 00:43:09 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 08:43:09 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrcZ5Gt_+wNKZ7zqzzWaGoSPE1rtCHEDrqh4eozdnHKAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:29 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

> Changed the subject line.
>
> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> > So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
> > and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not impressed.
> > I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it wasn't
> > multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.
> >
> > The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.
>
> So, is the SunOS code available in a way that would let people hack
> on it? They had ported it to 386 (roadrunner?), so maybe it'd be
> possible to revive it and bring it into the 21st century.
>

The Googles tells me there's a dozen download places.

SunOS 4.1 doesn't have 386 support in it. It was removed after SunOS 4.0.
The Sun RoadRunner wasn't really IBM PC compatible. It had a fair number of
incompatible bits included in it. It also had a weird BIOS.

There's a lot that's happened in x86 since then. It's unclear how much
benefit there would be to having the sources. It looks like you'd be much
better off starting with one of the latter-day BSD implementations to do
the port, though significant differences exist with the infrastructure so
it would be far from a drop-in.

Warner
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/17f33e0d/attachment.html>

From pechter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 00:44:37 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:44:37 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W54FizcyVwCsJTMC1zc=c-BhRzr94HwXKJMQtR-dO9qxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org>
 <20180829144037.GO317@mcvoy.com>
 <CAEoi9W54FizcyVwCsJTMC1zc=c-BhRzr94HwXKJMQtR-dO9qxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ce2bdfe0-afc4-4be4-be65-b518e4190da4.maildroid@localhost>

Didn't they un-open Solaris 11?

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com>
To: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:42
Subject: Re: [TUHS] SunOS code?

I wonder if they would consider doing it now. Oracle, I mean; the Solaris
code was opened up and an argument could be made that SunOS would be useful
for historical examination.

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:41 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Sun never open sourced it.
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:29:15PM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > Changed the subject line.
> >
> > Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >
> > > So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
> > > and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not impressed.
> > > I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it
> wasn't
> > > multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.
> > >
> > > The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.
> >
> > So, is the SunOS code available in a way that would let people hack
> > on it? They had ported it to 386 (roadrunner?), so maybe it'd be
> > possible to revive it and bring it into the 21st century.
> >
> > Just a thought,
> >
> > Arnold
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>


From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Aug 30 00:45:31 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 08:45:31 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrcZ5Gt_+wNKZ7zqzzWaGoSPE1rtCHEDrqh4eozdnHKAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org>
 <CANCZdfrcZ5Gt_+wNKZ7zqzzWaGoSPE1rtCHEDrqh4eozdnHKAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpq8nmZZmo5RwpHRFqswxwimRZyi1SMGipJqps-N5Y0Cg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 8:43 AM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:29 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>
>> Changed the subject line.
>>
>> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>
>> > So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
>> > and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not impressed.
>> > I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it wasn't
>> > multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.
>> >
>> > The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.
>>
>> So, is the SunOS code available in a way that would let people hack
>> on it? They had ported it to 386 (roadrunner?), so maybe it'd be
>> possible to revive it and bring it into the 21st century.
>>
>
> The Googles tells me there's a dozen download places.
>
> SunOS 4.1 doesn't have 386 support in it. It was removed after SunOS 4.0.
> The Sun RoadRunner wasn't really IBM PC compatible. It had a fair number of
> incompatible bits included in it. It also had a weird BIOS.
>
> There's a lot that's happened in x86 since then. It's unclear how much
> benefit there would be to having the sources. It looks like you'd be much
> better off starting with one of the latter-day BSD implementations to do
> the port, though significant differences exist with the infrastructure so
> it would be far from a drop-in.
>

Also, a huge difference is that there's *NO* MP support for SunOS.
Solbourne produced OS/MP which was SunOS with fine-grained locking added (I
forget the degree to which it was, but IIRC, there were 'funnels' that used
locks around the different subsystems (so not one big giant lock), not
fine-grained in the sense we use it today. *THAT* source is harder to find
online...

Warner
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/ccdd2e04/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug 30 00:45:52 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:45:52 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W54FizcyVwCsJTMC1zc=c-BhRzr94HwXKJMQtR-dO9qxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org> <20180829144037.GO317@mcvoy.com>
 <CAEoi9W54FizcyVwCsJTMC1zc=c-BhRzr94HwXKJMQtR-dO9qxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OHbL4ib+Mpj76eKS27cPE3qhTWmZxhDWbC_Cn8Qw6evA@mail.gmail.com>

The problem is finding some at Oracle that would care and finding a proper
distribution tape to officially release.

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:42 AM Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:

> I wonder if they would consider doing it now. Oracle, I mean; the Solaris
> code was opened up and an argument could be made that SunOS would be useful
> for historical examination.
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:41 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
>> Sun never open sourced it.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:29:15PM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
>> > Changed the subject line.
>> >
>> > Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
>> > > and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not
>> impressed.
>> > > I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it
>> wasn't
>> > > multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.
>> > >
>> > > The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.
>> >
>> > So, is the SunOS code available in a way that would let people hack
>> > on it? They had ported it to 386 (roadrunner?), so maybe it'd be
>> > possible to revive it and bring it into the 21st century.
>> >
>> > Just a thought,
>> >
>> > Arnold
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
>> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/f04f66cb/attachment.html>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Aug 30 00:46:04 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 08:46:04 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <ce2bdfe0-afc4-4be4-be65-b518e4190da4.maildroid@localhost>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org> <20180829144037.GO317@mcvoy.com>
 <CAEoi9W54FizcyVwCsJTMC1zc=c-BhRzr94HwXKJMQtR-dO9qxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <ce2bdfe0-afc4-4be4-be65-b518e4190da4.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqCwxgEK8rGuu_grypm1uv0FkRFVQhqiK-nRmXAZcFa_g@mail.gmail.com>

They didn't release the sources to Solaris 11. Anything released prior,
though, remains free.

Warner

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 8:44 AM William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com> wrote:

> Didn't they un-open Solaris 11?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com>
> To: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
> Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:42
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] SunOS code?
>
> I wonder if they would consider doing it now. Oracle, I mean; the Solaris
> code was opened up and an argument could be made that SunOS would be useful
> for historical examination.
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:41 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> > Sun never open sourced it.
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:29:15PM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > > Changed the subject line.
> > >
> > > Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
> > > > and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not
> impressed.
> > > > I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it
> > wasn't
> > > > multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.
> > > >
> > > > The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.
> > >
> > > So, is the SunOS code available in a way that would let people hack
> > > on it? They had ported it to 386 (roadrunner?), so maybe it'd be
> > > possible to revive it and bring it into the 21st century.
> > >
> > > Just a thought,
> > >
> > > Arnold
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> > http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
> >
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/3908b570/attachment.html>

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Aug 30 00:53:00 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 07:53:00 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrcZ5Gt_+wNKZ7zqzzWaGoSPE1rtCHEDrqh4eozdnHKAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org>
 <CANCZdfrcZ5Gt_+wNKZ7zqzzWaGoSPE1rtCHEDrqh4eozdnHKAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180829145300.GP317@mcvoy.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 08:43:09AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:29 PM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
> 
> > Changed the subject line.
> >
> > Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >
> > > So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
> > > and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not impressed.
> > > I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it wasn't
> > > multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.
> > >
> > > The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.
> >
> > So, is the SunOS code available in a way that would let people hack
> > on it? They had ported it to 386 (roadrunner?), so maybe it'd be
> > possible to revive it and bring it into the 21st century.
> >
> 
> The Googles tells me there's a dozen download places.
> 
> SunOS 4.1 doesn't have 386 support in it. It was removed after SunOS 4.0.
> The Sun RoadRunner wasn't really IBM PC compatible. It had a fair number of
> incompatible bits included in it. It also had a weird BIOS.
> 
> There's a lot that's happened in x86 since then. It's unclear how much
> benefit there would be to having the sources. It looks like you'd be much
> better off starting with one of the latter-day BSD implementations to do
> the port, though significant differences exist with the infrastructure so
> it would be far from a drop-in.

The BSDs have a less than optimal VM system.  Having SunOS opened up
would at least let people see what they are missing.  Maybe I have
rose colored glasses on but it was the only kernel that came into
focus for me and you could see the architecture from the code.  
Everything else seems like a mess to me.


From chet.ramey at case.edu  Thu Aug 30 00:50:48 2018
From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 10:50:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>
 <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bf8d52cd-cd23-7c3c-9bbb-7a9e348a20d8@case.edu>

On 8/29/18 10:41 AM, Dan Cross wrote:

> I'm curious who was using AOS, which was essentially Tahoe+NFS.

I was. We used it for a number of things at CWRU, and I used it personally
on old IBM workstations. I wrote a considerable portion of bash-2.0 on an
AOS machine in my old house, and my wife used it (plus an APA-style troff
macro package I wrote) to write her doctoral thesis.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet at case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/


From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Aug 30 00:59:41 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 07:59:41 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <bf8d52cd-cd23-7c3c-9bbb-7a9e348a20d8@case.edu>
References: <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
 <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>
 <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf8d52cd-cd23-7c3c-9bbb-7a9e348a20d8@case.edu>
Message-ID: <20180829145941.GR317@mcvoy.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:50:48AM -0400, Chet Ramey wrote:
> On 8/29/18 10:41 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
> 
> > I'm curious who was using AOS, which was essentially Tahoe+NFS.
> 
> I was. We used it for a number of things at CWRU, and I used it personally
> on old IBM workstations. I wrote a considerable portion of bash-2.0 on an
> AOS machine in my old house, and my wife used it (plus an APA-style troff
> macro package I wrote) to write her doctoral thesis.

I believe Wisconsin did the NFS stuff for that OS, as I was coming up
to speed I noticed a bunch of IBM work stations and I think they were
running AOS.  Wisconsin was quite the hacker school back then, mojo came
from there, so did Rusty and a bunch of the kernel hackers that were a
few years ahead of me.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 


From chet.ramey at case.edu  Thu Aug 30 01:08:39 2018
From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:08:39 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <20180829145941.GR317@mcvoy.com>
References: <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>
 <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <bf8d52cd-cd23-7c3c-9bbb-7a9e348a20d8@case.edu>
 <20180829145941.GR317@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <1875e414-fdc9-dc16-4908-23d4dadec37a@case.edu>

On 8/29/18 10:59 AM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:50:48AM -0400, Chet Ramey wrote:
>> On 8/29/18 10:41 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
>>
>>> I'm curious who was using AOS, which was essentially Tahoe+NFS.
>>
>> I was. We used it for a number of things at CWRU, and I used it personally
>> on old IBM workstations. I wrote a considerable portion of bash-2.0 on an
>> AOS machine in my old house, and my wife used it (plus an APA-style troff
>> macro package I wrote) to write her doctoral thesis.
> 
> I believe Wisconsin did the NFS stuff for that OS, as I was coming up
> to speed I noticed a bunch of IBM work stations and I think they were
> running AOS.  Wisconsin was quite the hacker school back then, mojo came
> from there, so did Rusty and a bunch of the kernel hackers that were a
> few years ahead of me.

Yep, they did. I maintained a custom kernel version for quite a long time,
but that computer is not one of the things that came along when we moved.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet at case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/


From reed at reedmedia.net  Thu Aug 30 02:13:32 2018
From: reed at reedmedia.net (Jeremy C. Reed)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:13:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.20.1808291110250.11589@t1.m.reedmedia.net>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Warren Toomey wrote:

> This reminded me of other semi-cryptic commands. I remember mistyping
> "kill -1 1" as "kill -9 1" with the inevitable consequences.

Last week I typed "crontab -" (missed the "e" for -e)  and then without 
realizing what happened Ctrl-C didn't work, typed Ctrl-D.  Argh. Lost 
around 20 crontabs which were in a directory I didn't backup. Luckily I 
had a syslog file with my recent jobs to recreate it, but lost all my 
comments and commented-out entries (for over ten years).


From arno.griffioen at ieee.org  Thu Aug 30 03:14:46 2018
From: arno.griffioen at ieee.org (Arno Griffioen)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 19:14:46 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
 <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>
 <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180829171446.GB16716@ancienthardware.org>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:41:02AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> I'm curious who was using AOS, which was essentially Tahoe+NFS.

Used it for several years, but on IBM 6151 RT machines and not RS/6000's. 

The ROMP CPU in the RT's was a bit of an oddball, but fun to play with 
using an assembler :)

Like many IBM's from the era they had fantastic keyboards though!

							Bye, Arno.


From tytso at mit.edu  Thu Aug 30 03:28:06 2018
From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Y. Ts'o)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:28:06 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
 <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>
 <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180829172806.GJ19128@thunk.org>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:41:02AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> 
> I'm curious who was using AOS, which was essentially Tahoe+NFS.
> "Frog-marched" is an apt description of the forced migration from SunOS to
> Solaris.

AOS was used by MIT's Project Athena.  DEC and IBM both contributed $5
million/year in staff or equipment, while MIT contributed $2
million/year.  So Athena was funded at $12 million for five years,
which was later extended by another 3 years.

Initially the DEC and IBM equipment was running on BSD 4.3/4.3 Tahoe.
DEC later moved us to Ultrix, and IBM to AIX (sigh).

Sun equipment was later added to the mix (purchased and funded by MIT).

   	       	       	     	       - Ted


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 03:25:28 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:25:28 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
Message-ID: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 07:46 AM, William Pechter wrote:
> Also... If you run on the internet remember documented security exploits 
> are decades old.  I recommend no open ports except for ssh if it will 
> build and maybe UUCP.

I'm working on a Retro Computing Networking project with a few other 
people and I think it would be a benefit for things like running 4.3 BSD 
and other old OSs in a relatively safe environment.

I'm bringing this up on TUSH for two reasons:

1)  I think THUS members could benefit from RetroNet
2)  I (we) would very much appreciate any suggestions or desires that 
the THUS community would like to see in such a network.

The idea behind RetroNet is two fold:

1)  Create a network of interconnected VPNs between interested parties.
2)  Provide ISP like services over said interconnections.

Our hopes are for RetroNet to be able to provide a sandbox / small pool 
/ isolated network where members can interconnect with each other (if 
they want to) similar to the Internet, but with much less exposure.  (We 
are planing on RetroNet not having direct Internet connectivity.)  We 
are also hoping and planing to be able to carry any Ethernet based 
traffic between sites, routed or not.

I (we) would be very interested in any input that THUS members might be 
able to provide.  Particularly what you might like to see in such a network.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/dc8aec36/attachment.bin>

From andreas.hein at berlan.de  Thu Aug 30 03:49:01 2018
From: andreas.hein at berlan.de (Andreas Hein)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 19:49:01 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>

Am 29. August 2018 19:25:28 MESZ schrieb Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>:
>On 08/29/2018 07:46 AM, William Pechter wrote:
>> Also... If you run on the internet remember documented security
>exploits 
>> are decades old.  I recommend no open ports except for ssh if it will
>
>> build and maybe UUCP.
>
>I'm working on a Retro Computing Networking project with a few other 
>people and I think it would be a benefit for things like running 4.3
>BSD 
>and other old OSs in a relatively safe environment.
>
>I'm bringing this up on TUSH for two reasons:
>
>1)  I think THUS members could benefit from RetroNet
>2)  I (we) would very much appreciate any suggestions or desires that 
>the THUS community would like to see in such a network.
>
>The idea behind RetroNet is two fold:
>
>1)  Create a network of interconnected VPNs between interested parties.
>2)  Provide ISP like services over said interconnections.
>
>Our hopes are for RetroNet to be able to provide a sandbox / small pool
>
>/ isolated network where members can interconnect with each other (if 
>they want to) similar to the Internet, but with much less exposure. 
>(We 
>are planing on RetroNet not having direct Internet connectivity.)  We 
>are also hoping and planing to be able to carry any Ethernet based 
>traffic between sites, routed or not.
>
>I (we) would be very interested in any input that THUS members might be
>
>able to provide.  Particularly what you might like to see in such a
>network.

Nice idea if UUCP is an option? Now dreaming about the 'internet' i used where i started with UNIX (1985)

KR, 
Andreas


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 04:05:45 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:05:45 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
Message-ID: <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 11:49 AM, Andreas Hein wrote:
> Nice idea if UUCP is an option? Now dreaming about the 'internet' i used 
> where i started with UNIX (1985)

We have been discussing UUCP options.  The short list is:

  · UUCP over SSH
  · UUCP over TCP  (is there an encrypted UUCP over TCP+SSL?)
  · UUCP bag files transferred some other means.
  · UUCP over some sort of emulated serial connection

If you have other ideas, I'd love to hear them.

I expect that we will be talking about an email gateway at some point if 
people are interested.

We already have a Usenet feed that we will be making available via NNTP 
and UUCP.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/2297b444/attachment.bin>

From web at loomcom.com  Thu Aug 30 04:04:58 2018
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:04:58 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, at 10:25 AM, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 08/29/2018 07:46 AM, William Pechter wrote:
> > Also... If you run on the internet remember documented security exploits 
> > are decades old.  I recommend no open ports except for ssh if it will 
> > build and maybe UUCP.
> 
> I'm working on a Retro Computing Networking project with a few other 
> people and I think it would be a benefit for things like running 4.3 BSD 
> and other old OSs in a relatively safe environment.
> 
> I'm bringing this up on TUSH for two reasons:
> 
> 1)  I think THUS members could benefit from RetroNet
> 2)  I (we) would very much appreciate any suggestions or desires that 
> the THUS community would like to see in such a network.
> 
> The idea behind RetroNet is two fold:
> 
> 1)  Create a network of interconnected VPNs between interested parties.
> 2)  Provide ISP like services over said interconnections.
> 
> Our hopes are for RetroNet to be able to provide a sandbox / small pool 
> / isolated network where members can interconnect with each other (if 
> they want to) similar to the Internet, but with much less exposure.  (We 
> are planing on RetroNet not having direct Internet connectivity.)  We 
> are also hoping and planing to be able to carry any Ethernet based 
> traffic between sites, routed or not.
> 
> I (we) would be very interested in any input that THUS members might be 
> able to provide.  Particularly what you might like to see in such a network.


Hmm. I hate to bring this up, but I've been using the name RetroNET as well. I've had the domain retronet.net registered for ages, and was about to launch a small pilot project with a handful of 3B2 emulators running SVR3, with the hope for many more interconnected systems.

That said, maybe we could pool our efforts? I'd be happy to share the domain name with this effort, since it's precisely in line with what I'd like to see.

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com


From pechter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 04:26:38 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:26:38 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>

Count me in.  I think a UUCP over ssh would be nice as would an SSL version.  I would like to see UUCP over ether as serial for backwards compatibility to talk to old machines and emulation. 

Some of the kid's I know would be blown away by Cnews and television or transported over Internet or PPP links. 

Bill

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​

On Aug 29, 2018, 14:06, at 14:06, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:
>On 08/29/2018 11:49 AM, Andreas Hein wrote:
>> Nice idea if UUCP is an option? Now dreaming about the 'internet' i
>used 
>> where i started with UNIX (1985)
>
>We have been discussing UUCP options.  The short list is:
>
>  · UUCP over SSH
>  · UUCP over TCP  (is there an encrypted UUCP over TCP+SSL?)
>  · UUCP bag files transferred some other means.
>  · UUCP over some sort of emulated serial connection
>
>If you have other ideas, I'd love to hear them.
>
>I expect that we will be talking about an email gateway at some point
>if 
>people are interested.
>
>We already have a Usenet feed that we will be making available via NNTP
>
>and UUCP.
>
>
>
>-- 
>Grant. . . .
>unix || die
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/b97c9745/attachment.html>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 04:33:49 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:33:49 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 12:04 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
> Hmm. I hate to bring this up, but I've been using the name RetroNET 
> as well. I've had the domain retronet.net registered for ages, and was 
> about to launch a small pilot project with a handful of 3B2 emulators 
> running SVR3, with the hope for many more interconnected systems.

*gulp*

So /you're/ the person that had the domain name we originally wanted.  ;-)

We actually decided that we liked "Retro Comp(uting) . Net(work)" and 
have registered that name.  There is a wiki(…) and forum(…), but the 
main website isn't up yet.

We are about a week into the discussions.  Please join us in the 
#retronet group on the Synchronet network.  (irc.chivanet.org)

> That said, maybe we could pool our efforts? I'd be happy to share the 
> domain name with this effort, since it's precisely in line with what 
> I'd like to see.

~sigh~of~relief~

I think we would love to welcome more members into the RetroNet.

As much as anything else, the idea is to build a community of friendly 
folks that want to play / learn / help each other, likely in direct 
relation to retro computing.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/4afafbb9/attachment.bin>

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Aug 30 04:36:32 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:36:32 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>

> As much as anything else, the idea is to build a community of friendly folks
> that want to play / learn / help each other, likely in direct relation to
> retro computing.

So just a thought.  A good curator, looking at you Warren, helps keep
things sane.  If your fun project takes off, be picky about who you let
in and what sort of behaviour you will tolerate.  One toxic person can
chase everyone away.


From pechter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 04:38:20 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:38:20 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <6e3a87ce-f573-4258-9db5-a5f99b5b89b1.maildroid@localhost>

Count me in.  Do we need to work up a UUCP mapping project. 

Also... Would a pgp encrypted mail system with decryption of messages at the endpoint make sense?

Bill


-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:34
Subject: Re: [TUHS] RetroNet…

On 08/29/2018 12:04 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
> Hmm. I hate to bring this up, but I've been using the name RetroNET 
> as well. I've had the domain retronet.net registered for ages, and was 
> about to launch a small pilot project with a handful of 3B2 emulators 
> running SVR3, with the hope for many more interconnected systems.

*gulp*

So /you're/ the person that had the domain name we originally wanted.  ;-)

We actually decided that we liked "Retro Comp(uting) . Net(work)" and 
have registered that name.  There is a wiki(…) and forum(…), but the 
main website isn't up yet.

We are about a week into the discussions.  Please join us in the 
#retronet group on the Synchronet network.  (irc.chivanet.org)

> That said, maybe we could pool our efforts? I'd be happy to share the 
> domain name with this effort, since it's precisely in line with what 
> I'd like to see.

~sigh~of~relief~

I think we would love to welcome more members into the RetroNet.

As much as anything else, the idea is to build a community of friendly 
folks that want to play / learn / help each other, likely in direct 
relation to retro computing.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die



From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 04:42:14 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:42:14 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cc408d6a-75af-0cf4-5f8b-45876cefe83b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 12:26 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> Count me in.

Cool!

Welcome!

We're currently hanging out in the #retronet group on the Synchronet 
network (I'm accessing through irc.chivanet.org).

> I think a UUCP over ssh would be nice as would an SSL version.

I've personally done UUCP over SSH multiple times.

It looks like TCP port 540 is reserved for UUCP over TCP and TCP port 
4031 is reserved for UUCP over SSL.

So, we'll definitely be offering those services inside of RetroNet.

Currently the idea is to make services available inside of RetroNet.  I 
don't know how many services will be openly available across the 
Internet.  Primarily for security / safety reasons.

That being said, I think we are planing on a gateway for things.  We're 
certainly willing to talk about other options too.

> I would like to see UUCP over ether as serial for backwards compatibility 
> to talk to old machines and emulation.

I / we would like to know more about the "over ether as serial" part. 
I'd think the goal would be to have RS-232 (et al) serial ports that can 
connect to retro computers and make things look like what they would 
expect to see.  That being said, we will either need an RS-232 (et al) 
serial port on a gateway, or something else to translate from serial to 
likely an IP~>telnet connection.

If you have ideas, please bring them and share them.

> Some of the kid's I know would be blown away by Cnews and television or 
> transported over Internet or PPP links.

Yep.  :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/08ff4435/attachment.bin>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 04:48:22 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:48:22 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <749fb91e-a955-47b4-f206-7b575bb8285d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 12:36 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> So just a thought.  A good curator, looking at you Warren, helps keep 
> things sane.  If your fun project takes off, be picky about who you let 
> in and what sort of behaviour you will tolerate.  One toxic person can 
> chase everyone away.

You make a good point Larry.

I'm sort of planing on putting some technological bollards in place to 
make it so that it's harder for a bad apple to spoil the rest of the 
barrel.  We've already discussed NetFlow for monitoring.  I'm assuming 
that there will be firewalls (at least reverse path filtering) in place 
to make it harder for people to spoof things.

Still something worth keeping in mind.

I'm sort of hoping that RetroNet members will sort of self regulate like 
ham radio operators have a tendance to do.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/ad5b2b6f/attachment.bin>

From pechter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 04:49:15 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:49:15 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBSZTogIFJldHJvTmV04oCm?=
In-Reply-To: <a09e914b-ae45-4dfa-8964-826852b3252e.maildroid@localhost>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
 <cc408d6a-75af-0cf4-5f8b-45876cefe83b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a09e914b-ae45-4dfa-8964-826852b3252e.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <c59f7d29-be25-4c4c-9e7a-fd43fab6d6a5.maildroid@localhost>

Missed the cc line.  Also I have mailman up @ lakewoodmicro.com at Digital Ocean. If we need mailing lists. 

-----Original Message-----
From: William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>
To: Grant Taylor <gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net>
Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:46
Subject: Re: [TUHS] RetroNet…

Damn.  Television was autocorrect but I wrote "Telebit" at the time.

Perhaps setting up a mumble server for voice chat makes sense.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:42
Subject: Re: [TUHS] RetroNet…

On 08/29/2018 12:26 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> Count me in.

Cool!

Welcome!

We're currently hanging out in the #retronet group on the Synchronet 
network (I'm accessing through irc.chivanet.org).

> I think a UUCP over ssh would be nice as would an SSL version.

I've personally done UUCP over SSH multiple times.

It looks like TCP port 540 is reserved for UUCP over TCP and TCP port 
4031 is reserved for UUCP over SSL.

So, we'll definitely be offering those services inside of RetroNet.

Currently the idea is to make services available inside of RetroNet.  I 
don't know how many services will be openly available across the 
Internet.  Primarily for security / safety reasons.

That being said, I think we are planing on a gateway for things.  We're 
certainly willing to talk about other options too.

> I would like to see UUCP over ether as serial for backwards compatibility 
> to talk to old machines and emulation.

I / we would like to know more about the "over ether as serial" part. 
I'd think the goal would be to have RS-232 (et al) serial ports that can 
connect to retro computers and make things look like what they would 
expect to see.  That being said, we will either need an RS-232 (et al) 
serial port on a gateway, or something else to translate from serial to 
likely an IP~>telnet connection.

If you have ideas, please bring them and share them.

> Some of the kid's I know would be blown away by Cnews and television or 
> transported over Internet or PPP links.

Yep.  :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die



From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug 30 04:50:24 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:50:24 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <cc408d6a-75af-0cf4-5f8b-45876cefe83b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
 <cc408d6a-75af-0cf4-5f8b-45876cefe83b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2O3nm3RP6yT7j2+FA8s+YsEX3YY3zkd4dhB9FDfjq7ezg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:42 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> ...
>
>
> It looks like TCP port 540 is reserved for UUCP over TCP
>
I think that's either 'e' or 't' uucico protocol.   I've forgoten (and I
wrote 'e').  But look at the uucico code in either a late version og
Honey-Dan-BER or the Taylor UUCP rewrite, as I think they have all those
protocols.




>
>
> I / we would like to know more about the "over ether as serial" part.
>
We can take this off line.   As I said, it been done a numberof times with
simh and the like.   The key is that simh creates a 'serial line' on a TCP
port.    You tell UNIX to hang a login off it and then you telnet or
whatever to that port.    The older system running in simh, thinks it has a
serial line.   It pretty much just works; al biet is slow as hell and chews
up a ton of resources.



>
> If you have ideas, please bring them and share them.
>
You just need to engage of a us old folks that run UUCP back in the day ;-)

Clem

ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/b1f3b1e2/attachment.html>

From crossd at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 04:53:42 2018
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:53:42 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W7P-Cz8K2etu=SzAmamE=cUtmxm8wLGOHKW=9KuqqKDrQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:36 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> > As much as anything else, the idea is to build a community of friendly
> folks
> > that want to play / learn / help each other, likely in direct relation to
> > retro computing.
>
> So just a thought.  A good curator, looking at you Warren, helps keep
> things sane.  If your fun project takes off, be picky about who you let
> in and what sort of behaviour you will tolerate.  One toxic person can
> chase everyone away.
>

Speaking of Warren and UUCP (and wise words from Larry here, but I'm going
off in a slightly different direction).

Warren was working on getting a UUCP network up and running again to
commemorate the Unix 50th anniversary. I was (and probably still am) on the
mailing list, but activity has kind of petered off as of late. Anyway, you
may want to get in touch with him and see if you can leverage some of that
work or perhaps join forces.

        - Dan C.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/ef52f56e/attachment.html>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 04:54:23 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:54:23 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <6e3a87ce-f573-4258-9db5-a5f99b5b89b1.maildroid@localhost>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <6e3a87ce-f573-4258-9db5-a5f99b5b89b1.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <05bca3df-ec9d-6782-2cd0-b8611e6c7880@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 12:38 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> Count me in.

:-)

> Do we need to work up a UUCP mapping project.

I'm sure we will want one at some point.

I know that we're not there yet.

> Also... Would a pgp encrypted mail system with decryption of messages 
> at the endpoint make sense?

I think that might be further down the road.  But I see no reason why 
such can't be discussed.

I assume that:

1)  There would be a central directory (DNS / LDAP) that has public 
certs / keys for people that wanted to participate.
2)  The email gateway would opportunistically encrypt messages that were 
unencrypted and relay them to the internal destination.
     (I'm assuming that some people will want to run their own SMTP server.)
     (We can easily provide a community SMTP server too.)

Aside:  One of the ideas of RetroNet is to provide a safe place for 
people to play and learn about technologies, like how to run their own 
SMTP server.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/e5557f7d/attachment.bin>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 04:56:04 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:56:04 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?RndkOiBSZTogUmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <c59f7d29-be25-4c4c-9e7a-fd43fab6d6a5.maildroid@localhost>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
 <cc408d6a-75af-0cf4-5f8b-45876cefe83b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <a09e914b-ae45-4dfa-8964-826852b3252e.maildroid@localhost>
 <c59f7d29-be25-4c4c-9e7a-fd43fab6d6a5.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <a005c480-8650-c794-6126-79f00dc79abd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 12:49 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> Missed the cc line.  Also I have mailman up @ lakewoodmicro.com at 
> Digital Ocean. If we need mailing lists.

Thank you for the offer Bill.

We've got a mailing list set up.  I don't think there are any 
subscribers yet.

This project is < 2 weeks old.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/7e8819d3/attachment.bin>

From krewat at kilonet.net  Thu Aug 30 04:57:37 2018
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:57:37 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2O3nm3RP6yT7j2+FA8s+YsEX3YY3zkd4dhB9FDfjq7ezg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
 <cc408d6a-75af-0cf4-5f8b-45876cefe83b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAC20D2O3nm3RP6yT7j2+FA8s+YsEX3YY3zkd4dhB9FDfjq7ezg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30f470e7-12cb-00ac-6461-35ce8dfb425d@kilonet.net>

Ala DZ11 support in the KS10 emulator of SIMH ;)



On 8/29/2018 2:50 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>
> We can take this off line.   As I said, it been done a numberof times 
> with simh and the like.   The key is that simh creates a 'serial line' 
> on a TCP port.    You tell UNIX to hang a login off it and then you 
> telnet or whatever to that port.    The older system running in simh, 
> thinks it has a serial line.   It pretty much just works; al biet is 
> slow as hell and chews up a ton of resources.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/80e233fb/attachment.html>

From pechter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 05:00:57 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 15:00:57 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W7P-Cz8K2etu=SzAmamE=cUtmxm8wLGOHKW=9KuqqKDrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>
 <CAEoi9W7P-Cz8K2etu=SzAmamE=cUtmxm8wLGOHKW=9KuqqKDrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <71fc9586-ad41-4471-ad78-617c85a68404.maildroid@localhost>

One thing that may make sense on the low power front...  I emulated 3 simultaneous Vaxes on one RasPi...

If you are less than secure (BSD 4.X) at least the host can be up to date with emulation. Running 4.2 with Sendmail 5 scares me.  Emulated  UUCP and maps less so. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com>
To: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
Cc: TUHS main list <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>, Grant Taylor <gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net>
Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:54
Subject: Re: [TUHS] RetroNet???

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:36 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> > As much as anything else, the idea is to build a community of friendly
> folks
> > that want to play / learn / help each other, likely in direct relation to
> > retro computing.
>
> So just a thought.  A good curator, looking at you Warren, helps keep
> things sane.  If your fun project takes off, be picky about who you let
> in and what sort of behaviour you will tolerate.  One toxic person can
> chase everyone away.
>

Speaking of Warren and UUCP (and wise words from Larry here, but I'm going
off in a slightly different direction).

Warren was working on getting a UUCP network up and running again to
commemorate the Unix 50th anniversary. I was (and probably still am) on the
mailing list, but activity has kind of petered off as of late. Anyway, you
may want to get in touch with him and see if you can leverage some of that
work or perhaps join forces.

        - Dan C.


From rly1 at embarqmail.com  Thu Aug 30 04:50:53 2018
From: rly1 at embarqmail.com (Ron Young)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 11:50:53 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38.0A.23233.D0BE68B5@smtp04.onyx.dfw.sync.lan>

Your message dated: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:26:38 -0400
--------

	I'm interested as well...  One thing you may want to consider
	is using the "pound" ssl wrapper (http://www.apsis.ch/pound/) to
	handle the encryption of traffic. I use this on my home-brewed
	webserver that doesn't do ssl itself. Pound is used as a ssl
	wrapper and forwards all public port 443 traffic over to port 80 on
	the internal webserver. It also redirects public port 80 over
	to the public port 443...

	-ron
> 
> Count me in=2E=C2=A0 I think a UUCP over ssh would be nice as would an SSL =
> version=2E=C2=A0 I would like to see UUCP over ether as serial for backward=
> s compatibility to talk to old machines and emulation=2E 
> 
> Some of the kid'=
> s I know would be blown away by Cnews and television or transported over In=
> ternet or PPP links=2E 
> 
> Bill
> 
===============================================================================
Ron Young				rly1 at embarqmail.com


From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug 30 05:30:48 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 15:30:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <30f470e7-12cb-00ac-6461-35ce8dfb425d@kilonet.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
 <cc408d6a-75af-0cf4-5f8b-45876cefe83b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAC20D2O3nm3RP6yT7j2+FA8s+YsEX3YY3zkd4dhB9FDfjq7ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <30f470e7-12cb-00ac-6461-35ce8dfb425d@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OOA2dHENjN=gWGT-1b1ue+zM60gXqZXkeVkP_bbxcYPg@mail.gmail.com>

Right but for goodness sake, try to make a DH11 work; not a DZ11!!!   Real
DZ11'S were SW pigs and consumed a measurable percentage of a vax,
particularly when running uucico(8) (they are interrupt crazy).   It is one
of the reasons why the Unix community in those days always recommended Able
DH/DMs on Vaxen.

Clem
ᐧ

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:57 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote:

> Ala DZ11 support in the KS10 emulator of SIMH ;)
>
>
>
> On 8/29/2018 2:50 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
>
>
>> We can take this off line.   As I said, it been done a numberof times
> with simh and the like.   The key is that simh creates a 'serial line' on a
> TCP port.    You tell UNIX to hang a login off it and then you telnet or
> whatever to that port.    The older system running in simh, thinks it has a
> serial line.   It pretty much just works; al biet is slow as hell and chews
> up a ton of resources.
>
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/bec13c80/attachment.html>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 05:35:37 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:35:37 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <71fc9586-ad41-4471-ad78-617c85a68404.maildroid@localhost>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>
 <CAEoi9W7P-Cz8K2etu=SzAmamE=cUtmxm8wLGOHKW=9KuqqKDrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <71fc9586-ad41-4471-ad78-617c85a68404.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <16994a7b-84e6-3b20-c555-8216accd372e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 01:00 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> One thing that may make sense on the low power front...  I emulated 3 
> simultaneous Vaxes on one RasPi...

Would those be independent VAXen?  Or would they be different CPU 
cabinets of a multi-CPU 780?  Was that 785 or something like that?

> If you are less than secure (BSD 4.X) at least the host can be up to date 
> with emulation. Running 4.2 with Sendmail 5 scares me.  Emulated  UUCP 
> and maps less so.

This is exactly why we want RetroNet to be a walled garden.  Easy for 
members to join and access yet separated from the Big Bad Internet™ for 
that very reason.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/75d729b4/attachment.bin>

From pechter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 05:43:00 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 15:43:00 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <16994a7b-84e6-3b20-c555-8216accd372e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>
 <CAEoi9W7P-Cz8K2etu=SzAmamE=cUtmxm8wLGOHKW=9KuqqKDrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <71fc9586-ad41-4471-ad78-617c85a68404.maildroid@localhost>
 <16994a7b-84e6-3b20-c555-8216accd372e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <da055139-997f-4cbe-a800-cfe5eea9a64b.maildroid@localhost>

They were 3 different 11/780s.  The 785 was a (DEC Germany as the Field Service rumor went) 7400 Schotky rework of the 11/780 TTL as a midlife speed kicker.  IIRC, it had a higher clock and was about 1.5x the 780.  The 11/782 was conjoined twin 11/780s in a master slave config.  I heard of 11/787s done with dual 11/785s but never saw them in my Field Service days.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 15:35
Subject: Re: [TUHS] RetroNet???

On 08/29/2018 01:00 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> One thing that may make sense on the low power front...  I emulated 3 
> simultaneous Vaxes on one RasPi...

Would those be independent VAXen?  Or would they be different CPU 
cabinets of a multi-CPU 780?  Was that 785 or something like that?

> If you are less than secure (BSD 4.X) at least the host can be up to date 
> with emulation. Running 4.2 with Sendmail 5 scares me.  Emulated  UUCP 
> and maps less so.

This is exactly why we want RetroNet to be a walled garden.  Easy for 
members to join and access yet separated from the Big Bad Internet™ for 
that very reason.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die



From arrigo at alchemistowl.org  Thu Aug 30 05:28:17 2018
From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 21:28:17 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W7P-Cz8K2etu=SzAmamE=cUtmxm8wLGOHKW=9KuqqKDrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>
 <CAEoi9W7P-Cz8K2etu=SzAmamE=cUtmxm8wLGOHKW=9KuqqKDrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D83B5D0F-BC43-4A85-BEED-98F2B1EF190A@alchemistowl.org>

On 29 Aug 2018, at 20:53, Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:36 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> Speaking of Warren and UUCP (and wise words from Larry here, but I'm going off in a slightly different direction).
> 
> Warren was working on getting a UUCP network up and running again to commemorate the Unix 50th anniversary. I was (and probably still am) on the mailing list, but activity has kind of petered off as of late. Anyway, you may want to get in touch with him and see if you can leverage some of that work or perhaps join forces.

Have you considered asking Peter Honeyman if he wishes to collaborate in the UUCP project (the “Honey” in HoneyDanBer UUCP)?

Arrigo



From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 06:14:11 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 14:14:11 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <D83B5D0F-BC43-4A85-BEED-98F2B1EF190A@alchemistowl.org>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>
 <CAEoi9W7P-Cz8K2etu=SzAmamE=cUtmxm8wLGOHKW=9KuqqKDrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <D83B5D0F-BC43-4A85-BEED-98F2B1EF190A@alchemistowl.org>
Message-ID: <83698bdc-c636-5688-5619-27c8c4b41500@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 01:28 PM, Arrigo Triulzi wrote:
> Have you considered asking Peter Honeyman if he wishes to collaborate 
> in the UUCP project (the “Honey” in HoneyDanBer UUCP)?

I hadn't thought about it.

Please reply to me directly / off list with contact information if you 
have it and I'll happily send him an email.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/6b61f74c/attachment.bin>

From krewat at kilonet.net  Thu Aug 30 06:09:49 2018
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 16:09:49 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2OOA2dHENjN=gWGT-1b1ue+zM60gXqZXkeVkP_bbxcYPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
 <cc408d6a-75af-0cf4-5f8b-45876cefe83b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAC20D2O3nm3RP6yT7j2+FA8s+YsEX3YY3zkd4dhB9FDfjq7ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <30f470e7-12cb-00ac-6461-35ce8dfb425d@kilonet.net>
 <CAC20D2OOA2dHENjN=gWGT-1b1ue+zM60gXqZXkeVkP_bbxcYPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0cfe9e5b-6a34-cea0-3639-4bdfea039cab@kilonet.net>

LOL - very true, Clem. That was a shameless bit of self-promotion. From 
what I can tell, SIMH does not support a DH11. Yet.

But when is an emulated interrupt a bad thing? Except for the idle loop 
that may or may not be optimized, the rest is balls-to-the-wall CPU 
bound anyway. And these days, even emulated, we're orders of magnitude 
faster than the original hardware.

http://simh.trailing-edge.narkive.com/Sc9HBFZU/multiple-telnet-ports-in-simh-to-rsts-e-9-6

I recognize a familiar name in there ;)

But yeah, when a DZ11 was blazing away at 19200 baud (I hacked the 
TOPS-10 6.03A we had at LIRICS to support it), it made the system crawl.

Back to our regularly scheduled programming...

On 8/29/2018 3:30 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Right but for goodness sake, try to make a DH11 work; not a DZ11!!!  
>  Real DZ11'S were SW pigs and consumed a measurable percentage of a 
> vax, particularly when running uucico(8) (they are interrupt crazy).  
>  It is one of the reasons why the Unix community in those days always 
> recommended Able DH/DMs on Vaxen.
>
> Clem
> ᐧ
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:57 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net 
> <mailto:krewat at kilonet.net>> wrote:
>
>     Ala DZ11 support in the KS10 emulator of SIMH ;)
>
>
>
>     On 8/29/2018 2:50 PM, Clem Cole wrote:
>>
>>
>>     We can take this off line.   As I said, it been done a numberof
>>     times with simh and the like.   The key is that simh creates a
>>     'serial line' on a TCP port. You tell UNIX to hang a login off it
>>     and then you telnet or whatever to that port.    The older system
>>     running in simh, thinks it has a serial line.   It pretty much
>>     just works; al biet is slow as hell and chews up a ton of resources.
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/47adee2a/attachment.html>

From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu Aug 30 06:21:11 2018
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 06:21:11 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <6e3a87ce-f573-4258-9db5-a5f99b5b89b1.maildroid@localhost>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <6e3a87ce-f573-4258-9db5-a5f99b5b89b1.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <20180829202111.GA17007@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 02:38:20PM -0400, William Pechter wrote:
> Count me in.  Do we need to work up a UUCP mapping project. 

Argh, argh! I did a lot of this last year. It's all on Github at
https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp/

We got as far as recreating this microcosm of Usenet
https://github.com/DoctorWkt/4bsd-uucp/blob/4.3BSD/uucp.png

before it all petered out!

Cheers, Warren


From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu Aug 30 06:22:19 2018
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 06:22:19 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <6e3a87ce-f573-4258-9db5-a5f99b5b89b1.maildroid@localhost>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <6e3a87ce-f573-4258-9db5-a5f99b5b89b1.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <20180829202219.GB17007@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 02:38:20PM -0400, William Pechter wrote:
> Count me in.  Do we need to work up a UUCP mapping project. 

Oh, and the mailing list for my effort is here:
https://minnie.tuhs.org//pipermail/uucp/

	Warren


From krewat at kilonet.net  Thu Aug 30 06:27:06 2018
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 16:27:06 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <20180829202111.GA17007@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <6e3a87ce-f573-4258-9db5-a5f99b5b89b1.maildroid@localhost>
 <20180829202111.GA17007@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <0d7d8493-1d58-1dee-d02d-1d1dc67be396@kilonet.net>

On 8/29/2018 4:21 PM, Warren Toomey wrote:
> before it all petered out!

And I'm ashamed to say, I had volunteered to be at least a leaf node, 
and never completed the task(s).

ak


From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug 30 06:58:51 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 16:58:51 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <0cfe9e5b-6a34-cea0-3639-4bdfea039cab@kilonet.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
 <cc408d6a-75af-0cf4-5f8b-45876cefe83b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAC20D2O3nm3RP6yT7j2+FA8s+YsEX3YY3zkd4dhB9FDfjq7ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <30f470e7-12cb-00ac-6461-35ce8dfb425d@kilonet.net>
 <CAC20D2OOA2dHENjN=gWGT-1b1ue+zM60gXqZXkeVkP_bbxcYPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0cfe9e5b-6a34-cea0-3639-4bdfea039cab@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Pix3LgUJdst3xnHZXKsMC7J7AkamVVS4cyv13dnpD33g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 4:17 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote:

> LOL - very true, Clem. That was a shameless bit of self-promotion. From
> what I can tell, SIMH does not support a DH11. Yet.
>
Note I have not tried this .... but from the simh mailing list:

  * The UNIBUS DH11 and DHU11 had 16 lines per interface
  * The QBUS DHV11 had 8 lines per interface
  * The QBUS CXY08 was DHU/DHV compatible and had 8 lines
  * The QBUS CXA16  "    "   "    "   "    "   "  16 lines

*Supposely, the DHV11 works ..... its been on my >>round tuit<< list for a
while to verify!!!!*



>
> But when is an emulated interrupt a bad thing? Except for the idle loop
> that may or may not be optimized, the rest is balls-to-the-wall CPU bound
> anyway. And these days, even emulated, we're orders of magnitude faster
> than the original hardware.
>
Yeah, but since the 780 was slow on interrupt processing, why stress it any
more thsan you have too.



>
>
> http://simh.trailing-edge.narkive.com/Sc9HBFZU/multiple-telnet-ports-in-simh-to-rsts-e-9-6
>
> I recognize a familiar name in there ;)
>
Yeah a couple of them ;-)




>
> But yeah, when a DZ11 was blazing away at 19200 baud (I hacked the TOPS-10
> 6.03A we had at LIRICS to support it), it made the system crawl.
>
No doubt.   CMU and MIT had front ends that put the serial lines on
dedicated PDP-11s in front of the 10's - so the Tops (or ITS) only saw
canonicalized I/O and it made a huge difference for those systems.  By the
time Vaxen, I don't think DEC had yet realized what a problem the DZ was.
 The DH's issue was cost (and space) since it was implemented in MSI TTL
and took up a full 'PDP-11 System Unit' on the bus.  The DZ11 gave you 8
serial ports in a single PDP-11 slot, which was a huge win.
ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/a8a0a637/attachment.html>

From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Aug 30 08:03:36 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 08:03:36 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Warren Toomey wrote:

> This reminded me of other semi-cryptic commands. I remember mistyping 
> "kill -1 1" as "kill -9 1" with the inevitable consequences.

Hands up all those who have *not* done that...

-- Dave


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 08:09:31 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 16:09:31 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <4bd61529-9c48-bd1a-80d7-d4bc6529fcdc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 04:03 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Hands up all those who have *not* done that...

My faux pas is usually meaning to type "telinit q" but reaching a bit 
too far and accidnetally typing "telinit 1".

*facepalm*

/me starts the (not so) slow walk of shame to the DC.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/81476a1b/attachment.bin>

From pechter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 08:21:44 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 18:21:44 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <4bd61529-9c48-bd1a-80d7-d4bc6529fcdc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <4bd61529-9c48-bd1a-80d7-d4bc6529fcdc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <415707d1-1b53-4042-a289-630f733f5188.maildroid@localhost>

Did that one at Johnson and Johnson Health Care Systems around '95 as an IBM Global Services guy.  Ran to the computer room to restart services and Oracle on AIX.

Apologized to the customer.  IBM demanded a formal Root Cause Analysis for the fat finger with recommendations for avoiding the problem in the future.
I proposed redesigned ascii keyboards where Q and 1 weren't adjacent.

Management suits not amused.  Customer took it as simple accident and dealt with the 5-10 minute outage.

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 18:09
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands

On 08/29/2018 04:03 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Hands up all those who have *not* done that...

My faux pas is usually meaning to type "telinit q" but reaching a bit 
too far and accidnetally typing "telinit 1".

*facepalm*

/me starts the (not so) slow walk of shame to the DC.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die



From danmick at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 08:31:13 2018
From: danmick at gmail.com (Dan Mick)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 15:31:13 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <ca23d04b-7e38-eb72-a009-6a20f0d64d63@gmail.com>

On 08/29/2018 03:03 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Warren Toomey wrote:
> 
>> This reminded me of other semi-cryptic commands. I remember mistyping
>> "kill -1 1" as "kill -9 1" with the inevitable consequences.
> 
> Hands up all those who have *not* done that...
> 
> -- Dave

<raises hand>

I always type signal names.  Life's too short to worry about saving
three characters.



From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Aug 30 08:34:05 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 08:34:05 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Clem Cole wrote:

[ Excellent screed elided ]

> That said, I give the Linux folks great credit for the addition of 
> modules was huge and it took BSD and the other UNIX systems a few years 
> really pick up that idea in the same way (yes Solaris, Tru64 and 
> eventually HPUX etc.. had something too but again - my comment about 
> being generally available applies).

Wasn't SunOS first with dynamic kernel modules, or is my memory worse than 
I thought?  Linux may have been around at the time, but we never used in 
the shop until much later (Red Hat, nicknamed Dead Rat).

> So here is the issue, how to do move the ball forward?   BSD, then 
> Linux, became the 'stronger strain' and pushed out the old version.  
>  The problem is the ROMs in my fingers (like Dave) never got 
> reprogrammed so some of the 'new' becomes annoying.   Will I learned to 
> like systemd?   We shall see...

Never mind "systemd"; I'm having enough trouble coming to grips with 
"launchd" on the Mac...  Gimme /etc/inetd.conf any time.

-- Dave

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 09:00:02 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 17:00:02 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <ca23d04b-7e38-eb72-a009-6a20f0d64d63@gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <ca23d04b-7e38-eb72-a009-6a20f0d64d63@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d133a619-dcd1-e0d1-4c08-475c9c89e84e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 04:31 PM, Dan Mick wrote:
> I always type signal names.  Life's too short to worry about saving 
> three characters.

Signal names?  I've always used numbers / quit.  I don't think I've ever 
seen anybody do otherwise.

/me goes to read the man page.

Thank you for the pro tip Dan.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/1cf8a937/attachment.bin>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Thu Aug 30 09:04:48 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 17:04:48 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <415707d1-1b53-4042-a289-630f733f5188.maildroid@localhost>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <4bd61529-9c48-bd1a-80d7-d4bc6529fcdc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <415707d1-1b53-4042-a289-630f733f5188.maildroid@localhost>
Message-ID: <3f239c5d-ea78-6379-c560-9935b856a234@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/29/2018 04:21 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> Did that one at Johnson and Johnson Health Care Systems around '95 as an 
> IBM Global Services guy.  Ran to the computer room to restart services 
> and Oracle on AIX.

@^*% happens.

Anybody that tells you it doesn't happen to them is lying.

> Apologized to the customer.  IBM demanded a formal Root Cause Analysis 
> for the fat finger with recommendations for avoiding the problem in 
> the future.  I proposed redesigned ascii keyboards where Q and 1 weren't 
> adjacent.

I remember things like that.

I always liked to admit things like that to the customer.  I felt that 
it fostered trust.  More than once I went to a customer that trusted me 
and told them that something was not me and they took me at my word, 
primarily because of that established trust.

> Management suits not amused.  Customer took it as simple accident and 
> dealt with the 5-10 minute outage.

Nice.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/77b3da1d/attachment.bin>

From davida at pobox.com  Thu Aug 30 09:09:43 2018
From: davida at pobox.com (David Arnold)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:09:43 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrcZ5Gt_+wNKZ7zqzzWaGoSPE1rtCHEDrqh4eozdnHKAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1535123616.1824656.1485063544.08BED1A8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <20180829004627.GG317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808290529.w7T5TFKa006049@freefriends.org>
 <CANCZdfrcZ5Gt_+wNKZ7zqzzWaGoSPE1rtCHEDrqh4eozdnHKAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F0461599-F4B8-4BD5-B96A-C73AFB01471C@pobox.com>

> On 30 Aug 2018, at 00:43, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 11:29 PM <arnold at skeeve.com <mailto:arnold at skeeve.com>> wrote:
> Changed the subject line.
> 
> Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com <mailto:lm at mcvoy.com>> wrote:
> 
> > So I'd go with MacOS is not a fun kernel.  It's pretty close to BSD
> > and I recently wandered through that VM system and I was not impressed.
> > I wish like hell that Sun had fed their VM back to BSD.  Yeah, it wasn't
> > multi processor friendly but someone would have fixed that.
> >
> > The penguin stuff, it's OK.  Not as clean as SunOS by a long shot.
> 
> So, is the SunOS code available in a way that would let people hack
> on it? They had ported it to 386 (roadrunner?), so maybe it'd be
> possible to revive it and bring it into the 21st century.
> 
> The Googles tells me there's a dozen download places.

I found both 4.1.4 (aka Solaris 1.1.2) and 4.1.3 (which still has the m68k, sun2, and sun3 bits in it).

It’d be quite fun to walk through Bill & Lynne Jolitz’ Dr Dobbs 386BSD articles but with one of these as the starting point.




d
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/9feccbfc/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 833 bytes
Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/9feccbfc/attachment.sig>

From ewayte at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 09:23:22 2018
From: ewayte at gmail.com (Eric Wayte)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 19:23:22 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <20180829171446.GB16716@ancienthardware.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>
 <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180829171446.GB16716@ancienthardware.org>
Message-ID: <CAJc6K3X8mxWxH-uPfEENOHJZivAfOjePySSHBiD_D4AT+e-q9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:28 PM Arno Griffioen <arno.griffioen at ieee.org>
wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:41:02AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> > I'm curious who was using AOS, which was essentially Tahoe+NFS.
>
> Used it for several years, but on IBM 6151 RT machines and not RS/6000's.
>
> The ROMP CPU in the RT's was a bit of an oddball, but fun to play with
> using an assembler :)
>
> Like many IBM's from the era they had fantastic keyboards though!
>
>                                                         Bye, Arno.
>

I remember IBM brought a semi-trailer to my university (UCF) showcasing the
RT back in the 80s.
-- 
Eric Wayte
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/0f7600d7/attachment.html>

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Aug 30 09:36:05 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 16:36:05 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20180829233605.GJ8423@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 08:34:05AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Clem Cole wrote:
> >That said, I give the Linux folks great credit for the addition of modules
> >was huge and it took BSD and the other UNIX systems a few years really
> >pick up that idea in the same way (yes Solaris, Tru64 and eventually HPUX
> >etc.. had something too but again - my comment about being generally
> >available applies).
> 
> Wasn't SunOS first with dynamic kernel modules, or is my memory worse than I
> thought?  Linux may have been around at the time, but we never used in the
> shop until much later (Red Hat, nicknamed Dead Rat).

Yep.  And Linux has loadable modules because I posted the SunOS 4.x man
pages for the SunOS loadable modules to the kernel list.  Proving once
again that the open source guys aren't always the greatest at coming up
with the ideas but once you show them that it can be done, it gets done
quickly.  I think they had a prototype working in a week.

> Never mind "systemd"; I'm having enough trouble coming to grips with
> "launchd" on the Mac...  Gimme /etc/inetd.conf any time.

Amen, brother.


From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Aug 30 09:38:10 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 16:38:10 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <3f239c5d-ea78-6379-c560-9935b856a234@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org>
 <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <4bd61529-9c48-bd1a-80d7-d4bc6529fcdc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <415707d1-1b53-4042-a289-630f733f5188.maildroid@localhost>
 <3f239c5d-ea78-6379-c560-9935b856a234@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20180829233810.GK8423@mcvoy.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 05:04:48PM -0600, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 08/29/2018 04:21 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> >Apologized to the customer.  IBM demanded a formal Root Cause Analysis for
> >the fat finger with recommendations for avoiding the problem in the
> >future.  I proposed redesigned ascii keyboards where Q and 1 weren't
> >adjacent.
> 
> I remember things like that.
> 
> I always liked to admit things like that to the customer.  I felt that it
> fostered trust.  More than once I went to a customer that trusted me and
> told them that something was not me and they took me at my word, primarily
> because of that established trust.

Yep, I'm the same way and I think most good to stellar engineers are the
same way.  How can you fix your stuff if you are in denial about it being
broken.

And I agree with you Grant, on the trust building.  Customers love it 
when you are honest.


From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Aug 30 10:02:59 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 10:02:59 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <0d7d8493-1d58-1dee-d02d-1d1dc67be396@kilonet.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <6e3a87ce-f573-4258-9db5-a5f99b5b89b1.maildroid@localhost>
 <20180829202111.GA17007@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <0d7d8493-1d58-1dee-d02d-1d1dc67be396@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300955050.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Arthur Krewat wrote:

> And I'm ashamed to say, I had volunteered to be at least a leaf node, 
> and never completed the task(s).

Me too, I'm afraid, but I suddenly got back into Amateur radio again after 
a lapse of a few year for health reasons (and my workbench has overflowed 
onto my dining table).

It's still on my TODO list, though (I think I snared "utzoo" for my UUCP 
node, and quite likely will resurrect one of my ACSnet nodes for any 
Aussies taking part).

-- Dave (VK2KFU)


From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Aug 30 10:13:03 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 10:13:03 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Pix3LgUJdst3xnHZXKsMC7J7AkamVVS4cyv13dnpD33g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
 <cc408d6a-75af-0cf4-5f8b-45876cefe83b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CAC20D2O3nm3RP6yT7j2+FA8s+YsEX3YY3zkd4dhB9FDfjq7ezg@mail.gmail.com>
 <30f470e7-12cb-00ac-6461-35ce8dfb425d@kilonet.net>
 <CAC20D2OOA2dHENjN=gWGT-1b1ue+zM60gXqZXkeVkP_bbxcYPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <0cfe9e5b-6a34-cea0-3639-4bdfea039cab@kilonet.net>
 <CAC20D2Pix3LgUJdst3xnHZXKsMC7J7AkamVVS4cyv13dnpD33g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808301004440.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Clem Cole wrote:

>       But yeah, when a DZ11 was blazing away at 19200 baud (I hacked
>       the TOPS-10 6.03A we had at LIRICS to support it), it made the
>       system crawl.
> 
> No doubt.   CMU and MIT had front ends that put the serial lines on 
> dedicated PDP-11s in front of the 10's - so the Tops (or ITS) only saw 
> canonicalized I/O and it made a huge difference for those systems.  By 
> the time Vaxen, I don't think DEC had yet realized what a problem the DZ 
> was. 

Did the Aussie DZ-11 drivers (there were two versions) not make it out of 
the country?  They are on the UNSW tapes, and I seem to recall a thread 
about this...  I don't know how fast we drove them, but I doubt whether it 
was 19200; probably 9600 for the lucky few and 2400 for the plebs.

-- Dave

From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug 30 11:14:22 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 21:14:22 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
In-Reply-To: <20180829233605.GJ8423@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829233605.GJ8423@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <69AFD606-5E1D-4060-95A5-22F33B2322B2@ccc.com>

Truth is I think IBM beat Sun on getting loadable modules for the kernel out first.  But I was counting the versions that people really looked at which is why I give Linux credit.   

It makes sense they modeled on SunOS btw but the fact is the Linux version is what folks like *BSD and macOS modeled after later.  

Btw you are 100% right - As for launchd I agree/no doubt -  but I’d already given up on MacOS being able to be admin’ed like a Unix box.  I can pretty much use it via iterm2 as a user like one and if mostly works as I expect (which I do appreciate).  

Linux is seductive enough to make think I should be able to admin it like I have for the last 40 years and it then bites me when I least expect it.   

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Aug 29, 2018, at 7:36 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 08:34:05AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Clem Cole wrote:
>>> That said, I give the Linux folks great credit for the addition of modules
>>> was huge and it took BSD and the other UNIX systems a few years really
>>> pick up that idea in the same way (yes Solaris, Tru64 and eventually HPUX
>>> etc.. had something too but again - my comment about being generally
>>> available applies).
>> 
>> Wasn't SunOS first with dynamic kernel modules, or is my memory worse than I
>> thought?  Linux may have been around at the time, but we never used in the
>> shop until much later (Red Hat, nicknamed Dead Rat).
> 
> Yep.  And Linux has loadable modules because I posted the SunOS 4.x man
> pages for the SunOS loadable modules to the kernel list.  Proving once
> again that the open source guys aren't always the greatest at coming up
> with the ideas but once you show them that it can be done, it gets done
> quickly.  I think they had a prototype working in a week.
> 
>> Never mind "systemd"; I'm having enough trouble coming to grips with
>> "launchd" on the Mac...  Gimme /etc/inetd.conf any time.
> 
> Amen, brother.


From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug 30 11:15:33 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 21:15:33 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
In-Reply-To: <69AFD606-5E1D-4060-95A5-22F33B2322B2@ccc.com>
References: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829233605.GJ8423@mcvoy.com>
 <69AFD606-5E1D-4060-95A5-22F33B2322B2@ccc.com>
Message-ID: <79E2CC9D-1BD5-41F2-A052-FC328E9C3B7E@ccc.com>

And I should added I do miss inetd.conf in both cases.   

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Aug 29, 2018, at 9:14 PM, Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> Truth is I think IBM beat Sun on getting loadable modules for the kernel out first.  But I was counting the versions that people really looked at which is why I give Linux credit.   
> 
> It makes sense they modeled on SunOS btw but the fact is the Linux version is what folks like *BSD and macOS modeled after later.  
> 
> Btw you are 100% right - As for launchd I agree/no doubt -  but I’d already given up on MacOS being able to be admin’ed like a Unix box.  I can pretty much use it via iterm2 as a user like one and if mostly works as I expect (which I do appreciate).  
> 
> Linux is seductive enough to make think I should be able to admin it like I have for the last 40 years and it then bites me when I least expect it.   
> 
> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 
> 
>>> On Aug 29, 2018, at 7:36 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 08:34:05AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Clem Cole wrote:
>>>> That said, I give the Linux folks great credit for the addition of modules
>>>> was huge and it took BSD and the other UNIX systems a few years really
>>>> pick up that idea in the same way (yes Solaris, Tru64 and eventually HPUX
>>>> etc.. had something too but again - my comment about being generally
>>>> available applies).
>>> 
>>> Wasn't SunOS first with dynamic kernel modules, or is my memory worse than I
>>> thought?  Linux may have been around at the time, but we never used in the
>>> shop until much later (Red Hat, nicknamed Dead Rat).
>> 
>> Yep.  And Linux has loadable modules because I posted the SunOS 4.x man
>> pages for the SunOS loadable modules to the kernel list.  Proving once
>> again that the open source guys aren't always the greatest at coming up
>> with the ideas but once you show them that it can be done, it gets done
>> quickly.  I think they had a prototype working in a week.
>> 
>>> Never mind "systemd"; I'm having enough trouble coming to grips with
>>> "launchd" on the Mac...  Gimme /etc/inetd.conf any time.
>> 
>> Amen, brother.


From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Thu Aug 30 12:43:59 2018
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 19:43:59 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
In-Reply-To: <69AFD606-5E1D-4060-95A5-22F33B2322B2@ccc.com>
References: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829233605.GJ8423@mcvoy.com>
 <69AFD606-5E1D-4060-95A5-22F33B2322B2@ccc.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtDgkkkP1kGbGRt48ON1BrMkN2GSsi8bfe=EeOGT3O8esw@mail.gmail.com>

AIX takes a lot of shit but there were (and still are) some areas it
was quite a bit ahead of its time.

I haven't used the ROMP 2.0 version that would have been on the IBM
RT.. on my search and todo list.  This is interesting because it ran
under a hypervisor.

The 1.x version for x86 PS/2s is basically Locus.  I don't like it.  I
think it was also used as a common port base for AIX/370  You can run
1.x in VirtualBox with some careful instructions.  I'm the canonical
source for all this at http://ps-2.kev009.com/aixps2/

But the 3.x version released with POWER/RS6000 in 1990 had a fully
pagable kernel, loadable kernel modules[1], logical volume management
and disk mirroring, an object oriented thing called the ODM which is
probably extremely controversial but a pretty nice for providing
KPI/KBI/API compatibility for drivers and subsystems and configuration
thereof.  It's a good mix of BSD and interesting to see how that was
accomplished https://technologists.com/sauer/Convergence_of_AIX_and_4.3BSD.pdf

[1] http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/rs6000/aix_3.0/SC23-2207-0_Kernel_Extensions_and_Device_Support_Programming_Concepts_Mar90.pdf
See for instance page 6-10

Regards,
Kevin

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 6:14 PM, Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> Truth is I think IBM beat Sun on getting loadable modules for the kernel out first.  But I was counting the versions that people really looked at which is why I give Linux credit.
>
> It makes sense they modeled on SunOS btw but the fact is the Linux version is what folks like *BSD and macOS modeled after later.
>
> Btw you are 100% right - As for launchd I agree/no doubt -  but I’d already given up on MacOS being able to be admin’ed like a Unix box.  I can pretty much use it via iterm2 as a user like one and if mostly works as I expect (which I do appreciate).
>
> Linux is seductive enough to make think I should be able to admin it like I have for the last 40 years and it then bites me when I least expect it.
>
> Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite.
>
>> On Aug 29, 2018, at 7:36 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 08:34:05AM +1000, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Clem Cole wrote:
>>>> That said, I give the Linux folks great credit for the addition of modules
>>>> was huge and it took BSD and the other UNIX systems a few years really
>>>> pick up that idea in the same way (yes Solaris, Tru64 and eventually HPUX
>>>> etc.. had something too but again - my comment about being generally
>>>> available applies).
>>>
>>> Wasn't SunOS first with dynamic kernel modules, or is my memory worse than I
>>> thought?  Linux may have been around at the time, but we never used in the
>>> shop until much later (Red Hat, nicknamed Dead Rat).
>>
>> Yep.  And Linux has loadable modules because I posted the SunOS 4.x man
>> pages for the SunOS loadable modules to the kernel list.  Proving once
>> again that the open source guys aren't always the greatest at coming up
>> with the ideas but once you show them that it can be done, it gets done
>> quickly.  I think they had a prototype working in a week.
>>
>>> Never mind "systemd"; I'm having enough trouble coming to grips with
>>> "launchd" on the Mac...  Gimme /etc/inetd.conf any time.
>>
>> Amen, brother.


From ggm at algebras.org  Thu Aug 30 12:59:07 2018
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:59:07 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtDgkkkP1kGbGRt48ON1BrMkN2GSsi8bfe=EeOGT3O8esw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829233605.GJ8423@mcvoy.com>
 <69AFD606-5E1D-4060-95A5-22F33B2322B2@ccc.com>
 <CAK7dMtDgkkkP1kGbGRt48ON1BrMkN2GSsi8bfe=EeOGT3O8esw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn3LUB5rxMrj5p8ko1ZUJypaYHybEUuZBJJkfzNJHsyJFA@mail.gmail.com>

if you staid inside the reservation (so to speak) I think AIX made
huge sense. I ran the BSD/RT stuff, it was very fine. The
documentation was rigorous. If you stuck to the docs, you couldn't go
wrong. But it was a frozen moment in time and as X10/X11 moved on, the
RT port got older and older.

the uni I worked at had a dying IBM mainframe. I think if we'd
committed more to the IBM model and dived in, AIX would have worked
well. But psych, compsci, engineering, arts/liberal-arts all went to
Suns and the computer centre (where I was) had been DEC10/Vax as well
as IBM)

We were half-pregnant. Its a difficult state to be in.

I don't really want to knock AIX, I think compared to the choices HPUX
made, or Apollo Domain/OS made, the AIX choices were more self
consistent. The unit I ran briefly in the research centre was rock
solid and most of my complaints are 'principle of least surprise
broken' coming from non-AIX world. I think if you were in it, it was
fine.

But really, thats the same thing about Solaris. I personally preferred
SunOS but the company backed this other model, and if you were in it,
the kickstart mechanism to do canned machine deployment, and disk
config, and all that goodness, It was fine. I jumped ship well before
Sun moved into the 'mainframe' world but I knew people who ran huge
non-stop high transactional services on the E1000 series, and were
very very happy.

Tandem (to riff on that) had its niche. I love the story about sales
engineers in the east coast pulling cards on the demo machine to show
"look it works" live and the West coast maintenance people tearing
their hair out at automatic supply-chain logistics shipping parts over
to fix the borked node.. (this is an Aussie story) But I never had to
handle the OS.

SCO, I did have to work on. As long as you stayed inside the
reservation.. No I can't go there. SCO was just awful.


From gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 13:03:13 2018
From: gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com (Gregg Levine)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 23:03:13 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAJc6K3X8mxWxH-uPfEENOHJZivAfOjePySSHBiD_D4AT+e-q9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829050640.GD5698@eureka.lemis.com>
 <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>
 <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180829171446.GB16716@ancienthardware.org>
 <CAJc6K3X8mxWxH-uPfEENOHJZivAfOjePySSHBiD_D4AT+e-q9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC5iaNGXqCxBSz9zQLpnDApsu5oGayDUzM8cwj9p8-=CAovtdg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello!
I remember meeting the RT family of machines during the UNIXEXPO cycle
of events. Also what DEC was up to. It was both the IBM 6151 RT
machines and finally the odd looking design that they turned into. I
still have the mouse pad they gave me of a certain Viking working to
promote them.

I recall that the sales droid at the collection of RT machines was
rather vexed that I simply used the telnet command to walk my way
across the whole series.

I also recall that I was more impressed by the DEC crowd, and was
amused by the SUN efforts. You're right as usual Larry, they were
working too <DELETED> hard to promote themselves.

Kevin I've seen your site before, it is as informative as usual.

As for running AIX in a virtual machine, perhaps I will contact you
off list to discuss that idea, Kevin.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 7:23 PM, Eric Wayte <ewayte at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:28 PM Arno Griffioen <arno.griffioen at ieee.org>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:41:02AM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
>> > I'm curious who was using AOS, which was essentially Tahoe+NFS.
>>
>> Used it for several years, but on IBM 6151 RT machines and not RS/6000's.
>>
>> The ROMP CPU in the RT's was a bit of an oddball, but fun to play with
>> using an assembler :)
>>
>> Like many IBM's from the era they had fantastic keyboards though!
>>
>>                                                         Bye, Arno.
>
>
> I remember IBM brought a semi-trailer to my university (UCF) showcasing the
> RT back in the 80s.
> --
> Eric Wayte


From pechter at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 13:59:55 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2018 23:59:55 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <3f239c5d-ea78-6379-c560-9935b856a234@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <4bd61529-9c48-bd1a-80d7-d4bc6529fcdc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <415707d1-1b53-4042-a289-630f733f5188.maildroid@localhost>
 <3f239c5d-ea78-6379-c560-9935b856a234@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CALwkMd2a2oHYacNZe9nAJ-MLT3VLE_1cEmfvgyTJf0PpR6ajiw@mail.gmail.com>

The only time I hid something like that was back in my Field Service days.

I smoked a third party data comm board which cost $$$$ while trying to
replace it.
DEC had me do something for one of my customers on a third party hardware
install.   I had no docs, training or experience with the board.
Unfortunately, the vendor didn't key a power cable and I flipped the damned
two pin wire blowing the chip top right off the board.

Wasn't sure it was my fault.  I stayed with the call until they got another
board and they got the box up and running and I finally figured I was the
cause
of the issue.  Didn't volunteer the info since I wasn't sure.   Probably
should've taken the hit.  When I did the bad thing I took the hit.

One of these was shorting +15v (IIRC) to Init L on the Unibus on an
11/780.  Blew the bits off all the boards back to the Unibus termination on
the DW780
and out to the M9302 Unibus terminator.

Spent the next two days rebuilding the box.
I still had a great relationship with the customer for the next 4 years at
the site.

People understand mistakes and will forgive.  Lying to a customer to keep
up a corporate image will never be forgotten if you get caught.

I remember stealing HDA's off of brand new RA81's at DEC's Princeton HQ to
get them out to customer sites before failures in the field from the glue
liquification issue.
Customers will stand by a company that puts them first and delivers serious
effort.
Nowadays the outsourced techs are pretty much parts carriers and swappers
with no ability to push company deliveries up and often they act as a
delaying action until the
company can deliver the correct services.

Bill


--
  d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN.  Don't you wish you could still buy it now!
 pechter-at-gmail.com


On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 7:05 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> On 08/29/2018 04:21 PM, William Pechter wrote:
> > Did that one at Johnson and Johnson Health Care Systems around '95 as an
> > IBM Global Services guy.  Ran to the computer room to restart services
> > and Oracle on AIX.
>
> @^*% happens.
>
> Anybody that tells you it doesn't happen to them is lying.
>
> > Apologized to the customer.  IBM demanded a formal Root Cause Analysis
> > for the fat finger with recommendations for avoiding the problem in
> > the future.  I proposed redesigned ascii keyboards where Q and 1 weren't
> > adjacent.
>
> I remember things like that.
>
> I always liked to admit things like that to the customer.  I felt that
> it fostered trust.  More than once I went to a customer that trusted me
> and told them that something was not me and they took me at my word,
> primarily because of that established trust.
>
> > Management suits not amused.  Customer took it as simple accident and
> > dealt with the 5-10 minute outage.
>
> Nice.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180829/d899b8c4/attachment.html>

From grog at lemis.com  Thu Aug 30 15:58:01 2018
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 15:58:01 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org>
Message-ID: <20180830055801.GE5698@eureka.lemis.com>

On Wednesday, 29 August 2018 at 10:41:02 -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:26 AM Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso at mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 03:06:40PM +1000, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>>>> In BSD 4.3 and early Linux (which is when I still was maintaining
>>>> Linux's serial driver) you always had to do:
>>>>
>>>>     stty dec < /dev/ttyS0
>>>
>>> Checking mckusick's source distribution, it seems that the -f option
>>> (along with sanity) came in with 4.4BSD.  It was in the original
>>> sources imported into FreeBSD.  4.3BSD had such a bizarre syntax that
>>> I suspect whatever you emulated must have come from a later date.
>>
>> BSD 4.4 Lite was released in 1994.  (Lite2 was released in 1995.)
>>
>> Linux was started in 1991, and we had a stty from very early on --- by
>> 1992 at the latest.

Right, which is why I wrote

  I suspect whatever you emulated must have come from a later date.

In case that wasn't clear, I meant a later date than 4.3BSD.

> I think that Greg is slightly mistaken; `stty` had `-f` documented
> in Net/2 (1991, though of course the entanglements there have been
> discussed), but the option existed in Reno (1990, though it seems to
> be absent from the man page).

No, this is exactly what I suspected, but was too lazy to check up on.
I don't have sources for Tahoe, Reno or Net/2 on my machine, but
FreeBSD 1.0 stty.c has:

  static char sccsid[] = "@(#)stty.c	5.28 (Berkeley) 6/5/91";

And it has the -f flag.  This was (just) before the very first version
of Linux.  My understanding is that FreeBSD 1.0 was primarily derived
from Net/2.  Of course, there's no reason to have chosen that version.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 163 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/9dc945f7/attachment.sig>

From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Aug 30 18:28:34 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 18:28:34 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <d133a619-dcd1-e0d1-4c08-475c9c89e84e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <ca23d04b-7e38-eb72-a009-6a20f0d64d63@gmail.com>
 <d133a619-dcd1-e0d1-4c08-475c9c89e84e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808301823510.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:

> Signal names?  I've always used numbers / quit.  I don't think I've ever 
> seen anybody do otherwise.

I've never used signal names (other than SIGTERM, when it got changed from 
14 to 15 for no good reason that I could see; at least it's now the 
default signal).

-- Dave


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Thu Aug 30 21:06:22 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 07:06:22 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <051a01d44051$7d7909c0$786b1d40$@ronnatalie.com>

I use the numbers but I think it stems from the days when kill didn't take
the names.    It's easier for me to remember -1 and -9 than to remember what
the mnemonics are.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Dave Horsfall
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:04 PM
> To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
> 
> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Warren Toomey wrote:
> 
> > This reminded me of other semi-cryptic commands. I remember mistyping
> > "kill -1 1" as "kill -9 1" with the inevitable consequences.
> 
> Hands up all those who have *not* done that...
> 
> -- Dave



From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Thu Aug 30 21:35:51 2018
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 07:35:51 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <051a01d44051$7d7909c0$786b1d40$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <051a01d44051$7d7909c0$786b1d40$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp_Ukevp2LMLcHFp_RKeLe3U4KPmVuty7XA7VrgKQg3KiQ@mail.gmail.com>

I remember doing a fresh install of unix on a VAX with another sysadmin. We
had spent a couple hours getting everything ready to go, and he had created
a bunch of temporary directories under /tmp to hold intermediate work. All
started with ".", so, in /tmp, he entered "rm -r .*". Unfortunately, that
matched .. as well. We knew something had gone very wrong when we got a
"/bin/rm: text busy" message as rm tried to remove itself.

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 7:06 AM, <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> I use the numbers but I think it stems from the days when kill didn't take
> the names.    It's easier for me to remember -1 and -9 than to remember
> what
> the mnemonics are.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of Dave Horsfall
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:04 PM
> > To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
> > Subject: Re: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
> >
> > On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Warren Toomey wrote:
> >
> > > This reminded me of other semi-cryptic commands. I remember mistyping
> > > "kill -1 1" as "kill -9 1" with the inevitable consequences.
> >
> > Hands up all those who have *not* done that...
> >
> > -- Dave
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/3188b45a/attachment.html>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Aug 30 23:14:17 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 07:14:17 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Research UNIX on the AT&T 3B2?
In-Reply-To: <20180830055801.GE5698@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <CAEoi9W42uyyfMwa48WAF_iXsv-jtu0jD12U+7Rn=Zt8A8BM1KQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180829142548.GH19128@thunk.org> <20180830055801.GE5698@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpQNJu9=FYQUjtnTj4ssFFhT9Y2geowhJ1gVTP+MGEyCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 11:58 PM Greg 'groggy' Lehey <grog at lemis.com> wrote:

> > I think that Greg is slightly mistaken; `stty` had `-f` documented
> > in Net/2 (1991, though of course the entanglements there have been
> > discussed), but the option existed in Reno (1990, though it seems to
> > be absent from the man page).
>
> No, this is exactly what I suspected, but was too lazy to check up on.
> I don't have sources for Tahoe, Reno or Net/2 on my machine, but
> FreeBSD 1.0 stty.c has:
>
>   static char sccsid[] = "@(#)stty.c    5.28 (Berkeley) 6/5/91";
>
> And it has the -f flag.  This was (just) before the very first version
> of Linux.  My understanding is that FreeBSD 1.0 was primarily derived
> from Net/2.  Of course, there's no reason to have chosen that version.
>

Net/2 was the basis of 386BSD, which begat the patchkits, which begat
FreeBSD and NetBSD.

One of the problems with early Linux was that they were just a bunch of
guys (and sometimes gals) that had access to these cool unix systems. At
the time, there was quite the lag between release by research / university
and running in a commercial Unix. So in the early 1990s, there were  a
bunch of systems based on 4.2BSD, as well as many based on System V, which
lacked the -f flag. At the time, it was at the end of the isolated phase of
Unix, where people just made stuff up in relative isolation and when the
cross pollination effects of USENET and the first Unix converts having had
a decade or so under their belts. The Linux guys weren't old-time Bell Labs
guys that would know the differences in detail between the different
strains, especially the people that were writing one-off utilities, often
to an old, out of date man page, that Linux encouraged to contribute.
Nothing wrong with all that, it was a crazy time trying to recreate things
at a mile a minute. But some details were not faithfully emulated. It's not
surprising: there was always so much to do. So while it existed when they
started, it's unlikely the knowledge had diffused enough for them to know
about it when it came time to code...

Warner
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/3fee32cb/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Thu Aug 30 23:24:48 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:24:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <051a01d44051$7d7909c0$786b1d40$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <051a01d44051$7d7909c0$786b1d40$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MV8voL4UxZrP_He4KPJDKYQdNrrJKWmjpDZFKUOnUKvw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 7:07 AM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> I use the numbers but I think it stems from the days when kill didn't take
> the names.    It's easier for me to remember -1 and -9 than to remember
> what
> the mnemonics are.
>
Same here - there first time I saw the mnemonics were in the built-in kill
command in csh.    Which was usefule for "kill -cont"

but to this day, since like Ron I grew on fifth/sixth/seventh edition which
used numbers, the ones that I remember and care about are screwed into my
fingers.

I never have an issue with -1 vs -9 with kill, but I do not have great
story about how as a young engineer I wiped out the life's work of visiting
professor because Tektronix had the 0 and 1 keys next to each other on one
of the terminals they made.  It was the console of our 11/60 and we had two
RK05's and I fat fingured /dev/r...0 instead of 1.  Bad stuff.

Clem
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/466d34ba/attachment.html>

From pechter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 00:31:56 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 10:31:56 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MV8voL4UxZrP_He4KPJDKYQdNrrJKWmjpDZFKUOnUKvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <051a01d44051$7d7909c0$786b1d40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2MV8voL4UxZrP_He4KPJDKYQdNrrJKWmjpDZFKUOnUKvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e55d764a-ab8a-41ce-b690-d57935588c3d@gmail.com>

At least in the old days drives had Write Protect switches. 
Screw IBM for the in cable drive select lines on diskette and leaving off Write Protect on hard disks.  Some disks had write protect jumpers on the boards... They should have been The STANDARD. 

Bill

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​

On Aug 30, 2018, 09:25, at 09:25, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 7:07 AM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>
>> I use the numbers but I think it stems from the days when kill didn't
>take
>> the names.    It's easier for me to remember -1 and -9 than to
>remember
>> what
>> the mnemonics are.
>>
>Same here - there first time I saw the mnemonics were in the built-in
>kill
>command in csh.    Which was usefule for "kill -cont"
>
>but to this day, since like Ron I grew on fifth/sixth/seventh edition
>which
>used numbers, the ones that I remember and care about are screwed into
>my
>fingers.
>
>I never have an issue with -1 vs -9 with kill, but I do not have great
>story about how as a young engineer I wiped out the life's work of
>visiting
>professor because Tektronix had the 0 and 1 keys next to each other on
>one
>of the terminals they made.  It was the console of our 11/60 and we had
>two
>RK05's and I fat fingured /dev/r...0 instead of 1.  Bad stuff.
>
>Clem
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/2e3fcbed/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 31 01:01:58 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 11:01:58 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <e55d764a-ab8a-41ce-b690-d57935588c3d@gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <051a01d44051$7d7909c0$786b1d40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2MV8voL4UxZrP_He4KPJDKYQdNrrJKWmjpDZFKUOnUKvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e55d764a-ab8a-41ce-b690-d57935588c3d@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PM=_HQ0tLH9Tqf1D8UC=UnGF+jLzSS_A_AAdQ7yKp5sA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 10:31 AM William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com> wrote:

> At least in the old days drives had Write Protect switches.
>
Not the issue - both disks were RW.  I was running as root and ran a
program that lacked a check it shoud have had it (because I was lazy and
never put it in there).



> Screw IBM for the in cable drive select lines on diskette
>
You of course realized that was because of field service issues of course.
 Setting all floppies (and later ST-506 disks) on the PC and using a twist
in the cable meant they did not have to ask FS folks to set the jumpers
properly.




> and leaving off Write Protect on hard disks.  Some disks had write protect
> jumpers on the boards...
>
Hmmm.. I thought all disks at least had a strap.   WD, CDC, Seagate,
Shuggart, Toshiba all supported the strap.  The IBM disks I remember did
not also, but I'll take your word for it, it would have been like them to
have removed it to save the connector cost.




> They should have been The STANDARD.
>
Hmmm.. I'm not at home, but I think I have both the ST-412/506 and ESDI
specs in a filing cab somewhere.  I thought the standard did defined it.
(Intel blocks 'bitsavers.org' for some reason so I can not look online but
I think  http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/seagate/ST412_OEMmanual_Apr82.pdf is
likely to have it in there).

Clem

>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/9ba321c2/attachment.html>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Aug 31 01:22:05 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 09:22:05 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PM=_HQ0tLH9Tqf1D8UC=UnGF+jLzSS_A_AAdQ7yKp5sA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com> <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <051a01d44051$7d7909c0$786b1d40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2MV8voL4UxZrP_He4KPJDKYQdNrrJKWmjpDZFKUOnUKvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e55d764a-ab8a-41ce-b690-d57935588c3d@gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PM=_HQ0tLH9Tqf1D8UC=UnGF+jLzSS_A_AAdQ7yKp5sA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfp1Nr+CKDZh8ua2U1nq=4wtcCdZTw7AuPJEaoHpv3EXuA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:03 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 10:31 AM William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Screw IBM for the in cable drive select lines on diskette
>>
> You of course realized that was because of field service issues of
> course.   Setting all floppies (and later ST-506 disks) on the PC and using
> a twist in the cable meant they did not have to ask FS folks to set the
> jumpers properly.
>

 Ah yes, the original zeroconfig :)

Warner
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/8dc1cf51/attachment.html>

From pechter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 02:11:19 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:11:19 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfp1Nr+CKDZh8ua2U1nq=4wtcCdZTw7AuPJEaoHpv3EXuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2MoDL7C3WSWn2Gmzo4qgA2Pe4+LTnchDq_VQdvKykubEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <f28da67c-b9af-b038-556b-f2e3012ddcff@mhorton.net>
 <CAC20D2PgjftUBz=wq2=ThZ4HU8yP1KuQ1iCWek-T4R0H17iP6Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808281017090.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180828003057.GA317@mcvoy.com>
 <201808280601.w7S61oLM030628@freefriends.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808290821350.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <c5abd058-2035-d105-2df2-3f94e5d59035@gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808291050580.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829032310.GF19128@thunk.org> <20180829043639.GA6691@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300757530.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <051a01d44051$7d7909c0$786b1d40$@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAC20D2MV8voL4UxZrP_He4KPJDKYQdNrrJKWmjpDZFKUOnUKvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e55d764a-ab8a-41ce-b690-d57935588c3d@gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PM=_HQ0tLH9Tqf1D8UC=UnGF+jLzSS_A_AAdQ7yKp5sA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfp1Nr+CKDZh8ua2U1nq=4wtcCdZTw7AuPJEaoHpv3EXuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0f8a883d-fd7d-4d39-bca9-b33f16195e00.maildroid@localhost>

Early plug and play.

Would have worked better if they trained the PC techs in how the stuff worked.

Bill
Old ex-tech turned sysadmin


-----Original Message-----
From: Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com>
To: Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com>
Cc: William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>, The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
Sent: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 11:22
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Cryptic Unix Commands

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:03 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 10:31 AM William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Screw IBM for the in cable drive select lines on diskette
>>
> You of course realized that was because of field service issues of
> course.   Setting all floppies (and later ST-506 disks) on the PC and using
> a twist in the cable meant they did not have to ask FS folks to set the
> jumpers properly.
>

 Ah yes, the original zeroconfig :)

Warner


From michael at kjorling.se  Fri Aug 31 03:54:20 2018
From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 17:54:20 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20180830175420.3zs4gpyacsgrh7wc@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>

On 29 Aug 2018 11:25 -0600, from tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org (Grant Taylor via TUHS):
> Our hopes are for RetroNet to be able to provide a sandbox / small pool /
> isolated network where members can interconnect with each other (if they
> want to) similar to the Internet, but with much less exposure.  (We are
> planing on RetroNet not having direct Internet connectivity.)  We are also
> hoping and planing to be able to carry any Ethernet based traffic between
> sites, routed or not.

This sounds interesting, but I'm not sure if I'd be eligible. What
would be the entry criteria? 20 years professional experience as
sysadmin on 4.3BSD? Physical PDP-11/780 running in the closet?

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)


From mutiny.mutiny at india.com  Fri Aug 31 04:05:32 2018
From: mutiny.mutiny at india.com (Donald ODona)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 18:05:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <1885206673.248929.1535652332688.JavaMail.tomcat@india-live-be04>

> 
> The idea behind RetroNet is two fold:
> 
> 1)  Create a network of interconnected VPNs between interested parties.
> 2)  Provide ISP like services over said interconnections.

we have that already. One of these is  <a target="_blank" href="https://livingcomputers.org/">https://livingcomputers.org/</a>


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Aug 31 04:11:17 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:11:17 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <20180830175420.3zs4gpyacsgrh7wc@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180830175420.3zs4gpyacsgrh7wc@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
Message-ID: <49620ace-ca66-c288-2ab3-3a0fe4af640e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/30/2018 11:54 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> This sounds interesting, but I'm not sure if I'd be eligible.

I bet that you do.

> What would be the entry criteria? 20 years professional experience as 
> sysadmin on 4.3BSD? Physical PDP-11/780 running in the closet?

Valid question.

I'm of the opinion that the entry criteria are a client that can talk to 
the RetroNet network (more on that in a moment) and a desire to participate.

I'll also say that a healthy interest / curiosity in anything that runs 
over / through RetroNet would be beneficial.  But if you want to use 
RetroNet to play Doom across IPX with buddies across town, then you 
should be able to do so.  (Assuming that you and your buddies are 
RetroNet members.)

As for client, I'm initially targeting something like a Raspberry Pi or 
any SOHO router that will run OpenWRT / DD-WRT / Tomato.  Ideally I'd 
like to re-use existing images (possibly with a different kernel) and 
add on packages.  I'd like those to be the almost-turn-key 
installations.  Almost as in you start with that and do some things on top.

If you want to roll your own Linux install that supports the documented 
specifications, then more power to you.

One of the purposes of RetroNet is to enable members to be able to 
participate and use the RetroNet for what ever they want (as long as 
it's legal and does not adversely effect RetroNet or members).  Another 
purpose for RetroNet is to provide a network that we can provide a safe 
environment for people that want to learn things and help / 
encouragement to do so.  Sort of like a mentor in a sandbox.

Aside:  I've been using the term "member".  I don't want that to convey 
any meaning other than someone that has signed up and has a RetroNet 
account.  I'm not anticipating any membership fees or anything like 
that.  Down the road we may set up something like a tip jar to help 
cover costs like domain name subscription or other nominal costs.

In short, if you want to play in the sand box and you play well with 
others, come on down.  Let's have fun, learn, play.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/68c6b50f/attachment.bin>

From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Aug 31 04:15:05 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 11:15:05 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <49620ace-ca66-c288-2ab3-3a0fe4af640e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180830175420.3zs4gpyacsgrh7wc@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <49620ace-ca66-c288-2ab3-3a0fe4af640e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20180830181505.GB26771@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:11:17PM -0600, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> In short, if you want to play in the sand box and you play well with others,
> come on down.  Let's have fun, learn, play.

Ought to be rules for life in general.


From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Aug 31 04:15:50 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:15:50 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <20180830181505.GB26771@mcvoy.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180830175420.3zs4gpyacsgrh7wc@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <49620ace-ca66-c288-2ab3-3a0fe4af640e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180830181505.GB26771@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <00479e23-5332-1976-dbbe-db896499992d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/30/2018 12:15 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> Ought to be rules for life in general.

***AGREED***



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/5e265efc/attachment.bin>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Aug 31 04:17:50 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:17:50 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <1885206673.248929.1535652332688.JavaMail.tomcat@india-live-be04>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1885206673.248929.1535652332688.JavaMail.tomcat@india-live-be04>
Message-ID: <5966a12b-f998-2c6a-a571-fbf06e8fcb19@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/30/2018 12:05 PM, Donald ODona wrote:
> we have that already. One of these is https://livingcomputers.org/

Nothing on the Living Computers website seemed even close to what I'm 
envisioning RetroNet to be.

Would you please clarify what you're referring to?  Or provide a better 
link to a page talking about the internetworking of individual home 
computers?

TL;DR:  RetroNet is meant to enable friends to interconnect their 
computers (what ever they are) at their houses to do what ever they want.

One of the uses of said network is to allow people who want to learn how 
to set up a web / email / dns / etc server to be able to do it in a safe 
place (read: NOT the Internet) with help from mentors.

I don't get the impression that any of that when I skim the Living 
Computers website.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/17263729/attachment.bin>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Aug 31 05:41:06 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 15:41:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
Message-ID: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Clem Cole

    > The problem is finding some at Oracle that would care

Well, I've got a nephew who's been at Oracle for like 20+ years; he can
probably point us at the right person.

    > and finding a proper distribution tape to officially release.

Why do we need that? Can't they say 'any and all versions of SunOS', and that
term ('SunOS') is sufficiently well defined in real-world documents (e.g. Sun
licenses) that that should be 'good enough'.

It sounds like the _actual code_ is reasonably available, we wouldn't need
Oracle to go looking around for it, would we?

	Noel


From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Aug 31 05:46:56 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 12:46:56 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20180830194656.GA664@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 03:41:06PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> It sounds like the _actual code_ is reasonably available, we wouldn't need
> Oracle to go looking around for it, would we?

I'd really like the SCCS history.


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Aug 31 05:54:39 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 15:54:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
Message-ID: <20180830195439.2533318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Larry McVoy

    > I'd really like the SCCS history.

Any idea if that even still exists, or did it get shredded somewhere along the
way?

Anyway, should I spin up my nephew on trying to find the right person to put
out a historic, personal-use license?

	Noel


From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Aug 31 06:04:10 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 14:04:10 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfp=XKH_dBaOajExgU4Um80D3Of=jPB8YGk22SiXFWGp4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:41 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > and finding a proper distribution tape to officially release.
>
> Why do we need that? Can't they say 'any and all versions of SunOS', and
> that
> term ('SunOS') is sufficiently well defined in real-world documents (e.g.
> Sun
> licenses) that that should be 'good enough'.
>
> It sounds like the _actual code_ is reasonably available, we wouldn't need
> Oracle to go looking around for it, would we?
>

The trouble, as I was given to understand when I worked at Solbourne, was
that SunOS wasn't just AT&T + BSD 4.2 +  4.3 + awesome hacking at SMI.
There were a number of third party bits and pieces in there that could not
be relicensed, even 28 years ago when things were fresh. Good luck getting
those third party permissions now... Sun's paid-up Unix license they did
for Solaris would cover any bits of AT&T code that was in there.

A quick grep of something that fell off an http server suggests that the
number of these is quite limited. However, the files they are on have no
other license, even though latter-day versions are available of hack, hunt,
indent and pax are available (though to be fair, the latter two do give
permission explicitly, and a good case can be made for hunt). I have no way
of knowing, however, if there are other IP issues, not limited to unmarked
sources, copyright notices that aren't 'well formed', code that's been
hacked by third parties under a contract granting them copyright ownership
and sun just a license, etc. It's that quagmire that efforts like this will
run up against.

Warner
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/099b8ed4/attachment.html>

From earl.baugh at gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 06:05:14 2018
From: earl.baugh at gmail.com (Earl Baugh)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:05:14 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180830195439.2533318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180830195439.2533318C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <F9FD4A98-B019-4A15-BDBF-1DD8E8905EE1@gmail.com>

I’d be interested. Especially for my Sun 1/100

Earl. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 30, 2018, at 3:54 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:

>> From: Larry McVoy
> 
>> I'd really like the SCCS history.
> 
> Any idea if that even still exists, or did it get shredded somewhere along the
> way?
> 
> Anyway, should I spin up my nephew on trying to find the right person to put
> out a historic, personal-use license?
> 
>    Noel


From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Aug 31 06:22:00 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:22:00 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfp=XKH_dBaOajExgU4Um80D3Of=jPB8YGk22SiXFWGp4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfp=XKH_dBaOajExgU4Um80D3Of=jPB8YGk22SiXFWGp4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180830202200.GC664@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 02:04:10PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:41 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
> 
> >     > and finding a proper distribution tape to officially release.
> >
> > Why do we need that? Can't they say 'any and all versions of SunOS', and
> > that
> > term ('SunOS') is sufficiently well defined in real-world documents (e.g.
> > Sun
> > licenses) that that should be 'good enough'.
> >
> > It sounds like the _actual code_ is reasonably available, we wouldn't need
> > Oracle to go looking around for it, would we?
> >
> 
> The trouble, as I was given to understand when I worked at Solbourne, was
> that SunOS wasn't just AT&T + BSD 4.2 +  4.3 + awesome hacking at SMI.
> There were a number of third party bits and pieces in there that could not
> be relicensed, even 28 years ago when things were fresh. 

So I've been down this path, it was STREAMS and RFS, and maybe a couple
of drivers.  I pulled all that crud out, put back the BSD tty code,
and I had a SunOS we could have given away.  It was back when I was
writing this:

http://mcvoy.com/lm/bitmover/lm/papers/freeos.pdf

and I needed to be able to show that what I was asking for was possible.

> A quick grep of something that fell off an http server suggests that the
> number of these is quite limited. However, the files they are on have no
> other license, even though latter-day versions are available of hack, hunt,
> indent and pax are available (though to be fair, the latter two do give
> permission explicitly, and a good case can be made for hunt). 

So you are including userland.  I'm not sure you need to.  Yeah, there was
some unicode work done there but quite frankly, I'd just have 

	/usr/gnu/bin
	/usr/bsd/bin
	/usr/sun/bin

and dump anything questionable in sun/bin.  It's the kernel that was the
most interesting, next would be the run time loader and shared libraries.
/usr/bin wasn't that exciting, the BSD purists might want that but I gotta
believe that BSD has caught up to Sun in 25 years (right???).


From norman at oclsc.org  Fri Aug 31 06:26:20 2018
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:26:20 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers
Message-ID: <1535660784.15121.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

Clem Cole:

  Clearly from the time, ditroff did not yet exist.   The more I think about
  it, Brian K actually might know some of the story.

===

I'm quite sure Brian Kernighan knows the full story of the origins
of typesetter-independent troff (as it was originally called, in
CSTR 97, published in 1981; the binary was just /usr/bin/troff).

The reason I'm so sure of that is that it was Brian who rewrote
troff to bring it into the modern era and to make it supportable.
He's also the author of the CSTR.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON


From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 31 06:33:06 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:33:06 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180830202200.GC664@mcvoy.com>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfp=XKH_dBaOajExgU4Um80D3Of=jPB8YGk22SiXFWGp4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180830202200.GC664@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MJomRXae3ZfVx8t7yqqQbmSdxLQAgmvgJHYFe46h98rw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:22 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

>
>
> So I've been down this path, it was STREAMS and RFS, and maybe a couple
> of drivers.  I pulled all that crud out, put back the BSD tty code,
> and I had a SunOS we could have given away.  It was back when I was
> writing this:
>
> http://mcvoy.com/lm/bitmover/lm/papers/freeos.pdf
>
> and I needed to be able to show that what I was asking for was possible.
>

Good to know you think it was possible.   I know in the case of Ultrix and
HP-UX lots of external folks licenses small things like Mentat, MIPS etc.
 For instance, one of the Ultrix and Alpha bug-a-boos was the MIPS
compiler, which leaked into the IP stream along the way.    As far as I
remember from my Locus days when we had just about everybody's sources from
IBM to Sun, the problem was the license was not just the OEM and AT&T,
there was always the sub-licenses from some deal or another that the OEM
had cut at some point.

Clem
ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/dca6400b/attachment.html>

From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Aug 31 06:36:21 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:36:21 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MJomRXae3ZfVx8t7yqqQbmSdxLQAgmvgJHYFe46h98rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfp=XKH_dBaOajExgU4Um80D3Of=jPB8YGk22SiXFWGp4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180830202200.GC664@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2MJomRXae3ZfVx8t7yqqQbmSdxLQAgmvgJHYFe46h98rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180830203621.GE664@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 04:33:06PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:22 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > So I've been down this path, it was STREAMS and RFS, and maybe a couple
> > of drivers.  I pulled all that crud out, put back the BSD tty code,
> > and I had a SunOS we could have given away.  It was back when I was
> > writing this:
> >
> > http://mcvoy.com/lm/bitmover/lm/papers/freeos.pdf
> >
> > and I needed to be able to show that what I was asking for was possible.
> 
> Good to know you think it was possible.   I know in the case of Ultrix and
> HP-UX lots of external folks licenses small things like Mentat, MIPS etc.

At this point, Linux has won, I don't think anyone would care if we got
the whole pile.

As Rob Gingell once said "Bits rot.  Unmaintained source quickly becomes
worthless".


From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 31 06:37:47 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:37:47 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2M9DerREXm+axUaXbyQhya=m8QPHx15t4+VThBW=y-Cgg@mail.gmail.com>

below...

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:41 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Clem Cole
>
>     > The problem is finding some at Oracle that would care
>
> Well, I've got a nephew who's been at Oracle for like 20+ years; he can
> probably point us at the right person.
>
>     > and finding a proper distribution tape to officially release.
>
> Why do we need that? Can't they say 'any and all versions of SunOS', and
> that
> term ('SunOS') is sufficiently well defined in real-world documents (e.g.
> Sun
> licenses) that that should be 'good enough'.
>
> Two issues:  1.) what consitutes release X or Y and 2) sublicenses.

For the former, Sun did have source distributions, typically for
Universities and certain OEMs.  Stellar had a 4.x license for the Sun3s but
I can not tell you which one (we used Sun3's as the porting base and wanted
the basic Sun3 support from SunOS to support it as we developed Stellix).
 For the later, we need to make sure you have the whole thing.   Most OEM's
had stuff from other firms, from compilers to whole subsystems.
ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/d4afb0f4/attachment.html>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Aug 31 06:38:39 2018
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 14:38:39 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180830202200.GC664@mcvoy.com>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfp=XKH_dBaOajExgU4Um80D3Of=jPB8YGk22SiXFWGp4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180830202200.GC664@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfqD6kyTMX+ztPuJrSENrRTHkRPzqyeLjnoUWJaVBFM2og@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:22 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 02:04:10PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:41 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >     > and finding a proper distribution tape to officially release.
> > >
> > > Why do we need that? Can't they say 'any and all versions of SunOS',
> and
> > > that
> > > term ('SunOS') is sufficiently well defined in real-world documents
> (e.g.
> > > Sun
> > > licenses) that that should be 'good enough'.
> > >
> > > It sounds like the _actual code_ is reasonably available, we wouldn't
> need
> > > Oracle to go looking around for it, would we?
> > >
> >
> > The trouble, as I was given to understand when I worked at Solbourne, was
> > that SunOS wasn't just AT&T + BSD 4.2 +  4.3 + awesome hacking at SMI.
> > There were a number of third party bits and pieces in there that could
> not
> > be relicensed, even 28 years ago when things were fresh.
>
> So I've been down this path, it was STREAMS and RFS, and maybe a couple
> of drivers.  I pulled all that crud out, put back the BSD tty code,
> and I had a SunOS we could have given away.


Why would STREAMS and RFS be a problem post OpenSolaris?


> It was back when I was
> writing this:
>
> http://mcvoy.com/lm/bitmover/lm/papers/freeos.pdf
>
> and I needed to be able to show that what I was asking for was possible.
>
> > A quick grep of something that fell off an http server suggests that the
> > number of these is quite limited. However, the files they are on have no
> > other license, even though latter-day versions are available of hack,
> hunt,
> > indent and pax are available (though to be fair, the latter two do give
> > permission explicitly, and a good case can be made for hunt).
>
> So you are including userland.  I'm not sure you need to.  Yeah, there was
> some unicode work done there but quite frankly, I'd just have
>
>         /usr/gnu/bin
>         /usr/bsd/bin
>         /usr/sun/bin
>
> and dump anything questionable in sun/bin.  It's the kernel that was the
> most interesting, next would be the run time loader and shared libraries.
> /usr/bin wasn't that exciting, the BSD purists might want that but I gotta
> believe that BSD has caught up to Sun in 25 years (right???).
>

grep -r was easy :).

Warner
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/3f91c283/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 31 06:40:49 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:40:49 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180830203621.GE664@mcvoy.com>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfp=XKH_dBaOajExgU4Um80D3Of=jPB8YGk22SiXFWGp4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180830202200.GC664@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2MJomRXae3ZfVx8t7yqqQbmSdxLQAgmvgJHYFe46h98rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180830203621.GE664@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MesCUN5U+DPC1iKdot9FvnkDEx0XFvLJdh3M5nB2ntAg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:36 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

>
> As Rob Gingell once said "Bits rot.  Unmaintained source quickly becomes
> worthless".
>
Yep.   So the question goes back to what is SunOS 4.x.y.  You seem to be
thinking in terms of looking at the kernel from those days (which is a fine
definition), but others said - hey I want to run this on my X or Y system.
 That's a different definition I think.
Clem

ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/8c1aee9e/attachment.html>

From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Aug 31 06:42:23 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:42:23 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfqD6kyTMX+ztPuJrSENrRTHkRPzqyeLjnoUWJaVBFM2og@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfp=XKH_dBaOajExgU4Um80D3Of=jPB8YGk22SiXFWGp4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180830202200.GC664@mcvoy.com>
 <CANCZdfqD6kyTMX+ztPuJrSENrRTHkRPzqyeLjnoUWJaVBFM2og@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180830204223.GF664@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 02:38:39PM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > I pulled all that crud out, put back the BSD tty code,
> > and I had a SunOS we could have given away.
> 
> Why would STREAMS and RFS be a problem post OpenSolaris?

That was then, this is now.  Back then they were definitely a problem.
I nuked all the AT&T Sys V stuff in the kernel because that had perceived
value to AT&T, they still thought Sys V was going to rule the world.
So I took us back to BSD + Sun's work.  Which was a more pleasant place
anyway IMO.



From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Aug 31 06:43:32 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 13:43:32 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MesCUN5U+DPC1iKdot9FvnkDEx0XFvLJdh3M5nB2ntAg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfp=XKH_dBaOajExgU4Um80D3Of=jPB8YGk22SiXFWGp4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180830202200.GC664@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2MJomRXae3ZfVx8t7yqqQbmSdxLQAgmvgJHYFe46h98rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180830203621.GE664@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2MesCUN5U+DPC1iKdot9FvnkDEx0XFvLJdh3M5nB2ntAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180830204332.GG664@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 04:40:49PM -0400, Clem Cole wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:36 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> >
> > As Rob Gingell once said "Bits rot.  Unmaintained source quickly becomes
> > worthless".
> >
> Yep.   So the question goes back to what is SunOS 4.x.y.  You seem to be
> thinking in terms of looking at the kernel from those days (which is a fine
> definition), but others said - hey I want to run this on my X or Y system.
>  That's a different definition I think.

I suspect that if SunOS got any traction it would be the kernel plus
maybe their shared libs and the Linux user space.  And it would need to
be ported to x86_64.


From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 31 06:43:59 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:43:59 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180830204223.GF664@mcvoy.com>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfp=XKH_dBaOajExgU4Um80D3Of=jPB8YGk22SiXFWGp4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180830202200.GC664@mcvoy.com>
 <CANCZdfqD6kyTMX+ztPuJrSENrRTHkRPzqyeLjnoUWJaVBFM2og@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180830204223.GF664@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PAF0naBoxR6pqMvPn8hRQWWTPWV+BeZwGpMpcn-OJFaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:42 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

>
> So I took us back to BSD + Sun's work.  Which was a more pleasant place
> anyway IMO.
>
Certainly easier to understand ;-)

ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/61b7aaa9/attachment.html>

From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Aug 31 06:48:24 2018
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 16:48:24 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] changes in C compilers
In-Reply-To: <1535660784.15121.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1535660784.15121.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OSjnyfdE8sUDAtndMseU24LONvxbHeU3FYeWOr-_FDZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:27 PM Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:

> Clem Cole:
>
>   Clearly from the time, ditroff did not yet exist.   The more I think
> about
>   it, Brian K actually might know some of the story.
>
> ===
>
> I'm quite sure Brian Kernighan knows the full story of the origins

That was not what I was saying....  (yes, I know Brian wrote ditroff and
have spoken at length to him about actually).
What, I was saying since he was Brian Ried's advisor on Scribe (during that
timeframe BTW), he might know some of the other details I refered too.
ᐧ
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/00dc26e6/attachment.html>

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Aug 31 07:34:07 2018
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 17:34:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
Message-ID: <20180830213407.6DC4718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Warner Losh

    > The trouble, as I was given to understand when I worked at Solbourne,
    > was that ... There were a number of third party bits and pieces in there
    > that could not be relicensed ... if there are other IP issues, not
    > limited ... It's that quagmire that efforts like this will run up
    > against.

Oh, we'll just ask Oracle for a license 'for all parts of SunOS for which they
have the ability to grant a licence'.

There's no way I'd want them to have to chase down all the corner cases,
that's just a way to guarantee it will never happen. I'd want to ask for the
bare minimum of time/effort on their part.

Anything above that, probably the SCCS stuff would be next on the priority
list, sounds like.

	Noel


From dave at horsfall.org  Fri Aug 31 09:42:15 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 09:42:15 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <49620ace-ca66-c288-2ab3-3a0fe4af640e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180830175420.3zs4gpyacsgrh7wc@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <49620ace-ca66-c288-2ab3-3a0fe4af640e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808310927330.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:

[ Excellent screed elided ]

> In short, if you want to play in the sand box and you play well with 
> others, come on down.  Let's have fun, learn, play.

Count me in; as a reborn electronics enthusiast (and a Unix user since 
Edition 5) I've been looking for an excuse to buy a Raspberry Pi (as 
opposed to the usual articles in the usual magazines), and this sounds 
just the ticket!

And if subdomains are available then of course I'll contribute (as if I 
wouldn't anyway).

-- Dave (VK2KFU)


From dave at horsfall.org  Fri Aug 31 10:27:20 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 10:27:20 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtDgkkkP1kGbGRt48ON1BrMkN2GSsi8bfe=EeOGT3O8esw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829233605.GJ8423@mcvoy.com>
 <69AFD606-5E1D-4060-95A5-22F33B2322B2@ccc.com>
 <CAK7dMtDgkkkP1kGbGRt48ON1BrMkN2GSsi8bfe=EeOGT3O8esw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808311023210.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Kevin Bowling wrote:

> AIX takes a lot of shit but there were (and still are) some areas it was 
> quite a bit ahead of its time.

The standing joke with AIX was that it was pronounced "aches" (as in 
pains), but I was glad that it ran "smit" for admin stuff, as there was no 
way that I could remember the appropriate Shell commands.

-- Dave


From crossd at gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 10:41:26 2018
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 20:41:26 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808311023210.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829233605.GJ8423@mcvoy.com>
 <69AFD606-5E1D-4060-95A5-22F33B2322B2@ccc.com>
 <CAK7dMtDgkkkP1kGbGRt48ON1BrMkN2GSsi8bfe=EeOGT3O8esw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808311023210.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W7MGkz2DpkrRhTY8Y=GHj5wRjo6Jb3DwKjtexYSyAxywg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:27 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Kevin Bowling wrote:
>
> > AIX takes a lot of shit but there were (and still are) some areas it was
> > quite a bit ahead of its time.
>
> The standing joke with AIX was that it was pronounced "aches" (as in
> pains), but I was glad that it ran "smit" for admin stuff, as there was no
> way that I could remember the appropriate Shell commands.
>

"SMIT happens "

        - Dan C.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/c87a402e/attachment.html>

From ckeck at texoma.net  Fri Aug 31 11:12:31 2018
From: ckeck at texoma.net (Cornelius Keck)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 20:12:31 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] RetroNet???
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W7P-Cz8K2etu=SzAmamE=cUtmxm8wLGOHKW=9KuqqKDrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180829183632.GD8423@mcvoy.com>
 <CAEoi9W7P-Cz8K2etu=SzAmamE=cUtmxm8wLGOHKW=9KuqqKDrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87109c55-82b6-7e76-f126-261044a1a15b@texoma.net>

I'd like to get in on this, too.

Dan Cross wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:36 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com
> <mailto:lm at mcvoy.com>> wrote:
>
>     > As much as anything else, the idea is to build a community of
>     friendly folks
>     > that want to play / learn / help each other, likely in direct
>     relation to
>     > retro computing.
>
>     So just a thought.  A good curator, looking at you Warren, helps keep
>     things sane.  If your fun project takes off, be picky about who you let
>     in and what sort of behaviour you will tolerate.  One toxic person can
>     chase everyone away.
>
>
> Speaking of Warren and UUCP (and wise words from Larry here, but I'm
> going off in a slightly different direction).
>
> Warren was working on getting a UUCP network up and running again to
> commemorate the Unix 50th anniversary. I was (and probably still am) on
> the mailing list, but activity has kind of petered off as of late.
> Anyway, you may want to get in touch with him and see if you can
> leverage some of that work or perhaps join forces.
>
>         - Dan C.
>


From ckeck at texoma.net  Fri Aug 31 11:15:03 2018
From: ckeck at texoma.net (Cornelius Keck)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 20:15:03 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <1d8c0539-8b43-9954-d8a7-db4dcc22b27d@texoma.net>

Do I want to reserve retronet.us? Could host that here, as I have static 
IPs.

Having static IPs hanging of a FIOS line is cheaper and easier than 
dealing with a hoster..


Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 08/29/2018 12:04 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
>> Hmm. I hate to bring this up, but I've been using the name RetroNET as
>> well. I've had the domain retronet.net registered for ages, and was
>> about to launch a small pilot project with a handful of 3B2 emulators
>> running SVR3, with the hope for many more interconnected systems.
>
> *gulp*
>
> So /you're/ the person that had the domain name we originally wanted.  ;-)
>
> We actually decided that we liked "Retro Comp(uting) . Net(work)" and
> have registered that name.  There is a wiki(…) and forum(…), but the
> main website isn't up yet.
>
> We are about a week into the discussions.  Please join us in the
> #retronet group on the Synchronet network.  (irc.chivanet.org)
>
>> That said, maybe we could pool our efforts? I'd be happy to share the
>> domain name with this effort, since it's precisely in line with what
>> I'd like to see.
>
> ~sigh~of~relief~
>
> I think we would love to welcome more members into the RetroNet.
>
> As much as anything else, the idea is to build a community of friendly
> folks that want to play / learn / help each other, likely in direct
> relation to retro computing.
>
>
>


From ckeck at texoma.net  Fri Aug 31 11:17:33 2018
From: ckeck at texoma.net (Cornelius Keck)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 20:17:33 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <005618da-62b2-97e9-c7fb-4eb42717be6e@texoma.net>

Same. I've used UUCP over IP for a long time, but my German peer went 
away. UUCP over modem I'm going to rig in the near future, after some 
retail therapy, like two Telebit Trailblazer (have one already) and a 
central office simulator.

William Pechter wrote:
> Count me in.  I think a UUCP over ssh would be nice as would an SSL
> version.  I would like to see UUCP over ether as serial for backwards
> compatibility to talk to old machines and emulation.
>
> Some of the kid's I know would be blown away by Cnews and television or
> transported over Internet or PPP links.
>
> Bill
>
> Sent from BlueMail <http://www.bluemail.me/r?b=13187>
> On Aug 29, 2018, at 14:06, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> <mailto:tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>> wrote:
>
>     On 08/29/2018 11:49 AM, Andreas Hein wrote:
>
>         Nice idea if UUCP is an option? Now dreaming about the
>         'internet' i used
>         where i started with UNIX (1985)
>
>
>     We have been discussing UUCP options.  The short list is:
>
>       · UUCP over SSH
>       · UUCP over TCP  (is there an encrypted UUCP over TCP+SSL?)
>       · UUCP bag files transferred some other means.
>       · UUCP over some sort of emulated serial connection
>
>     If you have other ideas, I'd love to hear them.
>
>     I expect that we will be talking about an email gateway at some point if
>     people are interested.
>
>     We already have a Usenet feed that we will be making available via NNTP
>     and UUCP.
>
>


From ckeck at texoma.net  Fri Aug 31 11:20:59 2018
From: ckeck at texoma.net (Cornelius Keck)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 20:20:59 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <2e58402b-6366-4f74-757b-b7c8dd1b729c@texoma.net>

If one wanted to do this old-school, like with modems ... just 
wondering, who still has

- a wire-line phone,

- a modem,

- and hails from where?

Flat rate local toll and long distance is fairly prevalent in the US. 
International long distance is a different story. How does that look 
like elsewhere, who has a metered land-line?

Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 08/29/2018 11:49 AM, Andreas Hein wrote:
>> Nice idea if UUCP is an option? Now dreaming about the 'internet' i
>> used where i started with UNIX (1985)
>
> We have been discussing UUCP options.  The short list is:
>
>  · UUCP over SSH
>  · UUCP over TCP  (is there an encrypted UUCP over TCP+SSL?)
>  · UUCP bag files transferred some other means.
>  · UUCP over some sort of emulated serial connection
>
> If you have other ideas, I'd love to hear them.
>
> I expect that we will be talking about an email gateway at some point if
> people are interested.
>
> We already have a Usenet feed that we will be making available via NNTP
> and UUCP.
>
>
>


From pechter at gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 11:37:16 2018
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:37:16 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?q?RetroNet=E2=80=A6_Virtual_is_cheap=2E?=
In-Reply-To: <1d8c0539-8b43-9954-d8a7-db4dcc22b27d@texoma.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1d8c0539-8b43-9954-d8a7-db4dcc22b27d@texoma.net>
Message-ID: <e0aa9929-d1fc-43fb-8eae-1c2bad859244.maildroid@localhost>

Actually, my virtual machine @Digital Ocean has been $5.25/month.  Can't get static IP on my Fios for that.  Domain registration and DNS via Google Domains is another buck per month...

I run mail, web and DNS for $6.25/month on FreeBSD or Linux with full root control.



-----Original Message-----
From: Cornelius Keck <ckeck at texoma.net>
To: Grant Taylor <gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net>, tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
Sent: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 21:17
Subject: Re: [TUHS] RetroNet…

Do I want to reserve retronet.us? Could host that here, as I have static 
IPs.

Having static IPs hanging of a FIOS line is cheaper and easier than 
dealing with a hoster..


Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 08/29/2018 12:04 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
>> Hmm. I hate to bring this up, but I've been using the name RetroNET as
>> well. I've had the domain retronet.net registered for ages, and was
>> about to launch a small pilot project with a handful of 3B2 emulators
>> running SVR3, with the hope for many more interconnected systems.
>
> *gulp*
>
> So /you're/ the person that had the domain name we originally wanted.  ;-)
>
> We actually decided that we liked "Retro Comp(uting) . Net(work)" and
> have registered that name.  There is a wiki(…) and forum(…), but the
> main website isn't up yet.
>
> We are about a week into the discussions.  Please join us in the
> #retronet group on the Synchronet network.  (irc.chivanet.org)
>
>> That said, maybe we could pool our efforts? I'd be happy to share the
>> domain name with this effort, since it's precisely in line with what
>> I'd like to see.
>
> ~sigh~of~relief~
>
> I think we would love to welcome more members into the RetroNet.
>
> As much as anything else, the idea is to build a community of friendly
> folks that want to play / learn / help each other, likely in direct
> relation to retro computing.
>
>
>


From ckeck at texoma.net  Fri Aug 31 11:09:19 2018
From: ckeck at texoma.net (Cornelius Keck)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 20:09:19 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <49620ace-ca66-c288-2ab3-3a0fe4af640e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180830175420.3zs4gpyacsgrh7wc@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <49620ace-ca66-c288-2ab3-3a0fe4af640e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <c36dc92a-985d-eb12-6ee3-6df26ae497cb@texoma.net>

I'm playing with the idea of hooking up a modem to my wireline phone. 
I'd like to keep an eye on my late mother-in-law's place remotely. Best 
I can get out there is DSL, and it ain't snappy, so one idea is to get 
two Telebit Trailblazer modems, one here, one out there, dial into the 
place, pull imagery via UUCP. Trailies spoof UUCP natively, and they 
deal nicely with bad connectivity. One could take that one step further 
and bring back a bit of Usenet.


Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 08/30/2018 11:54 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote:
>> This sounds interesting, but I'm not sure if I'd be eligible.
>
> I bet that you do.
>
>> What would be the entry criteria? 20 years professional experience as
>> sysadmin on 4.3BSD? Physical PDP-11/780 running in the closet?
>
> Valid question.
>
> I'm of the opinion that the entry criteria are a client that can talk to
> the RetroNet network (more on that in a moment) and a desire to
> participate.
>
> I'll also say that a healthy interest / curiosity in anything that runs
> over / through RetroNet would be beneficial.  But if you want to use
> RetroNet to play Doom across IPX with buddies across town, then you
> should be able to do so.  (Assuming that you and your buddies are
> RetroNet members.)
>
> As for client, I'm initially targeting something like a Raspberry Pi or
> any SOHO router that will run OpenWRT / DD-WRT / Tomato.  Ideally I'd
> like to re-use existing images (possibly with a different kernel) and
> add on packages.  I'd like those to be the almost-turn-key
> installations.  Almost as in you start with that and do some things on top.
>
> If you want to roll your own Linux install that supports the documented
> specifications, then more power to you.
>
> One of the purposes of RetroNet is to enable members to be able to
> participate and use the RetroNet for what ever they want (as long as
> it's legal and does not adversely effect RetroNet or members).  Another
> purpose for RetroNet is to provide a network that we can provide a safe
> environment for people that want to learn things and help /
> encouragement to do so.  Sort of like a mentor in a sandbox.
>
> Aside:  I've been using the term "member".  I don't want that to convey
> any meaning other than someone that has signed up and has a RetroNet
> account.  I'm not anticipating any membership fees or anything like
> that.  Down the road we may set up something like a tip jar to help
> cover costs like domain name subscription or other nominal costs.
>
> In short, if you want to play in the sand box and you play well with
> others, come on down.  Let's have fun, learn, play.
>
>
>


From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Aug 31 11:58:22 2018
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 18:58:22 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W7MGkz2DpkrRhTY8Y=GHj5wRjo6Jb3DwKjtexYSyAxywg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829233605.GJ8423@mcvoy.com>
 <69AFD606-5E1D-4060-95A5-22F33B2322B2@ccc.com>
 <CAK7dMtDgkkkP1kGbGRt48ON1BrMkN2GSsi8bfe=EeOGT3O8esw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808311023210.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAEoi9W7MGkz2DpkrRhTY8Y=GHj5wRjo6Jb3DwKjtexYSyAxywg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180831015822.GQ664@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 08:41:26PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 8:27 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, 29 Aug 2018, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> >
> > > AIX takes a lot of shit but there were (and still are) some areas it was
> > > quite a bit ahead of its time.
> >
> > The standing joke with AIX was that it was pronounced "aches" (as in
> > pains), but I was glad that it ran "smit" for admin stuff, as there was no
> > way that I could remember the appropriate Shell commands.
> >
> 
> "SMIT happens "

So back in the BitKeeper days, we supported everything, including AIX.  I've
got a fairly beefy AIX box in my shop in case we need it, 1ghz, lots of ram,
we're never gonna turn that on.  I went into smit and I was just like can 
you just frigging let me edit /etc/inetd.conf or whatever, but no.

SMIT happens.  And I did not like it.  I think that's one of the reasons
that SunOS was cool, it was just a better, bugfixed BSD.  So we all knew
how to deal with it.  SMIT not so much.


From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Fri Aug 31 11:59:30 2018
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 18:59:30 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180830213407.6DC4718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20180830213407.6DC4718C0A6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtDabPX9O7Qk1fCGuzLuAc0Ke8S7qS0ArEzsW3cGMiFJUg@mail.gmail.com>

The effects of copyright on abandonware have been discussed pretty
widely in other communities.  The primary issue is the contracts and
right don't simply expire and it's rare for a company to completely
shutter (i.e. assets including these copyrights are acquired or given
to creditors).

Oracle would need to establish that they have providence over the
files and code, and that exceptions for Novel and other code were
covered by the OpenSolaris rights reviews.  I imagine it might cost
low hundreds of thousands of dollars to do lawyers being what they are
and commercial *nix being such a melting pot of sources.  Since there
is no conceivable revenue stream and Oracle isn't much for goodwill I
am highly skeptical.

Sun releasing OpenSolaris when they finally did and under the CDDL was
pretty tone deaf to what was going on in the market with Linux, but
you have to admire the amount of contract review and legal work that
must have taken.

Regards,
Kevin


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:34 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>     > From: Warner Losh
>
>     > The trouble, as I was given to understand when I worked at Solbourne,
>     > was that ... There were a number of third party bits and pieces in there
>     > that could not be relicensed ... if there are other IP issues, not
>     > limited ... It's that quagmire that efforts like this will run up
>     > against.
>
> Oh, we'll just ask Oracle for a license 'for all parts of SunOS for which they
> have the ability to grant a licence'.
>
> There's no way I'd want them to have to chase down all the corner cases,
> that's just a way to guarantee it will never happen. I'd want to ask for the
> bare minimum of time/effort on their part.
>
> Anything above that, probably the SCCS stuff would be next on the priority
> list, sounds like.
>
>         Noel


From usotsuki at buric.co  Fri Aug 31 13:07:13 2018
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 23:07:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <2e58402b-6366-4f74-757b-b7c8dd1b729c@texoma.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <2e58402b-6366-4f74-757b-b7c8dd1b729c@texoma.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1808302304380.87473@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, Cornelius Keck wrote:

> If one wanted to do this old-school, like with modems ... just wondering, who 
> still has
>
> - a wire-line phone,
>
> - a modem,
>
> - and hails from where?
>
> Flat rate local toll and long distance is fairly prevalent in the US. 
> International long distance is a different story. How does that look like 
> elsewhere, who has a metered land-line?

Well, I got a landline, but it has flat rate local only and no long 
distance plan (it's the second-lowest plan for people with disabilities), 
so about the only places I could call out are elsewhere in Niagara Falls 
and the surrounding towns...not very useful here =p

-uso.


From grog at lemis.com  Fri Aug 31 13:30:46 2018
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 13:30:46 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] hal.gnu.ai.mit.edu
In-Reply-To: <CANuZA8STu8kX1=-WeJatqN2UhZ7n-49Sn=2sXZq9Fei1SH5hBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANuZA8STu8kX1=-WeJatqN2UhZ7n-49Sn=2sXZq9Fei1SH5hBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180831033046.GF5698@eureka.lemis.com>

On Saturday, 25 August 2018 at 19:45:51 +0100, Steve Mynott wrote:
> Back in the early 90s before the FSF withdrew the service due to misuse it
> was possible to write off to them to get a free shell account on "hal" as I
> did. I recall having to telnet through one of three gateway systems so
> assume it was on its own little subnet.
>
> But I can't remember what sort of system (hardware or OS) it was now
> however and wondered if anyone else did?

I had a login on the GNU systems (there were several of them).  I
can't recall most of them, so they can't have been that interesting,
but there were one or two IBM machines.  I forget the OS, but I recall
using gdb to look at the assembler code of some program or another.
It was clearly related to the System/370.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 163 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180831/1fdc22ea/attachment.sig>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Aug 31 14:13:37 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 22:13:37 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808310927330.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180830175420.3zs4gpyacsgrh7wc@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <49620ace-ca66-c288-2ab3-3a0fe4af640e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808310927330.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <9a854668-3a0a-de7a-1d92-5b8cd0df3740@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/30/2018 05:42 PM, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Count me in; as a reborn electronics enthusiast (and a Unix user since 
> Edition 5) I've been looking for an excuse to buy a Raspberry Pi (as 
> opposed to the usual articles in the usual magazines), and this sounds 
> just the ticket!

That's the spirit.  :-)  Do what you want to do and have fun doing it.

> And if subdomains are available then of course I'll contribute (as if I 
> wouldn't anyway).

We haven't explicitly talked about sub-domains yet, but I expect that we 
will be delegating <client name>.retrocomp.net to members if they want.

We'll happily host it as part of the retrocomp.net zone and make changes 
as requested, or delegate the subdomain per standard process.  We can 
even slave the delegated subdomain back on the main DNS servers so that 
you are in complete control while still hosting things if you prefer.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/8ef5c460/attachment.bin>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Aug 31 14:17:32 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 22:17:32 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <c36dc92a-985d-eb12-6ee3-6df26ae497cb@texoma.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <20180830175420.3zs4gpyacsgrh7wc@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>
 <49620ace-ca66-c288-2ab3-3a0fe4af640e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <c36dc92a-985d-eb12-6ee3-6df26ae497cb@texoma.net>
Message-ID: <0ac9afc1-3521-17f0-ee95-a5c0c440511d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/30/2018 07:09 PM, Cornelius Keck wrote:
> I'm playing with the idea of hooking up a modem to my wireline phone. 
> I'd like to keep an eye on my late mother-in-law's place remotely. Best 
> I can get out there is DSL, and it ain't snappy, so one idea is to get 
> two Telebit Trailblazer modems, one here, one out there, dial into the 
> place, pull imagery via UUCP. Trailies spoof UUCP natively, and they 
> deal nicely with bad connectivity. One could take that one step further 
> and bring back a bit of Usenet.

That sounds like an interesting project.  I'd personally like to 
shoulder surf or read periodic updates, possibly a blog or twitter?  ;-)

I don't see how RetroNet can help with that connection.  It sounds like 
you've already got a good plan in place.

That being said, I do think that you could have a RetroNet … node 
(?term?) … at your house and then pass news feeds / email / etc over 
your Telebit UUCP extension.  —  I see no reason why that wouldn't work. 
  If you want to do such, cool.  How can I / we help?



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/044c4904/attachment.bin>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Aug 31 14:33:13 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 22:33:13 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <005618da-62b2-97e9-c7fb-4eb42717be6e@texoma.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <02ee9a61-2920-40e0-bfa4-feb8b3d38c73@gmail.com>
 <005618da-62b2-97e9-c7fb-4eb42717be6e@texoma.net>
Message-ID: <2a75be0b-a92c-22b7-3372-d500e7c7367d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/30/2018 07:17 PM, Cornelius Keck wrote:
> Same. I've used UUCP over IP for a long time, but my German peer went 
> away.

What were you running across UUCP over IP?  I'd be willing ~> interested 
in providing a connection from my personal server (currently independent 
of RetroNet) if you want to play ~> learn.  —  Feel free to drop me a 
line directly / off list if you (or anyone) want to pursue this.

> UUCP over modem I'm going to rig in the near future, after some retail 
> therapy, like two Telebit Trailblazer (have one already) and a central 
> office simulator.

I'm curious what you're going to use as a C.O. simulator.  I'm likely to 
(re)acquire an AT&T / Lucent / Avaya "Partner" phone system that 
provides eight (?) station ports, which include analog B1 interfaces 
that modems can connect to.  It might only support 33.6 kbps, but it 
will do the job.  :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/99d22c9c/attachment.bin>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Aug 31 14:40:47 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 22:40:47 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <2e58402b-6366-4f74-757b-b7c8dd1b729c@texoma.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1F62F4D0-7AD1-43C2-A9B7-CF9DF239C3D9@berlan.de>
 <f923f2ae-0463-e3e6-c0fb-55124edb92ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <2e58402b-6366-4f74-757b-b7c8dd1b729c@texoma.net>
Message-ID: <69d4887c-51db-2aa2-ff74-7d717319d384@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/30/2018 07:20 PM, Cornelius Keck wrote:
> If one wanted to do this old-school, like with modems ... just 
> wondering, who still has
> 
> - a wire-line phone,
> 
> - a modem,
> 
> - and hails from where?
> 
> Flat rate local toll and long distance is fairly prevalent in the US. 
> International long distance is a different story. How does that look 
> like elsewhere, who has a metered land-line?

I could see RetroNet pondering an additional service in the future that 
is effectively a virtual serial port (more below) that connects to a 
virtual modem that can interconnect with other virtual modems as if they 
called each other.  I think something like this could be made to work 
across IP interconnections provided by RetroNet.

This is obviously beyond the original ideas of RetroNet, which we want 
to get working first.  But if there's sufficient interest in people 
being able to ""call each other over a (virtual) modem, then I think we 
should put it on the desired features list.

There are a number of options that can create a virtual serial port that 
connects across networks.  I think we can even connect a physical serial 
port (possibly even via RS-232 serial to USB adapters that can be 
connected to physical machines).

So if this is something that you're interested in, please let us know.

This might be a good place to ""forward the virtual modem discussion to 
the RetroNet mailing list.

TUHS has been very gracious and a lot of people have shown interest. 
But we don't want to wear out our welcome.  ():-)

To that end, please subscribe to the RetroNet mailing list to continue 
discussing details about the virtual modems.

Link - RetroNet mailing list
  - http://mailman.chivanet.org/listinfo/retronet



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/3d5c3e7b/attachment.bin>

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Aug 31 15:06:04 2018
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 23:06:04 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] =?utf-8?b?UmV0cm9OZXTigKY=?=
In-Reply-To: <1d8c0539-8b43-9954-d8a7-db4dcc22b27d@texoma.net>
References: <f3f250f4-cffd-794c-450a-d1c3829c890e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1535565898.3905695.1490376112.4B7D3E18@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <6e7783fb-ff06-2e21-002f-76bef263b63c@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <1d8c0539-8b43-9954-d8a7-db4dcc22b27d@texoma.net>
Message-ID: <b1c19c91-3237-8900-4be5-6b6214505794@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 08/30/2018 07:15 PM, Cornelius Keck wrote:
> Do I want to reserve retronet.us? Could host that here, as I have static 
> IPs.

I'm not going to tell you not to do so if you want to.

I will say that I have registered "retrocomp.net", as in "Retro 
Computing Network".

The person that has registered "retronet.com" (TLD is from memory) has 
both expressed interest in participating and offered use of the domain.

So … I think for the moment we are going to continue with retrocomp.net 
because that's what we have started with.

That being said, it is early enough in the process that we can still 
change domain names if we want to.  I would encourage you to subscribe 
to the RetroNet mailing list and start a conversation about which domain 
name to use.

Link - RetroNet mailing list
  - http://mailman.chivanet.org/listinfo/retronet

> Having static IPs hanging of a FIOS line is cheaper and easier than 
> dealing with a hoster..

*nod*

I run my personal services on a Linode VPS.  They have served me very 
well.  :-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 3982 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180830/641ed4f8/attachment.bin>

From lars at nocrew.org  Fri Aug 31 15:49:38 2018
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 05:49:38 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa's
 message of "Thu, 30 Aug 2018 15:41:06 -0400 (EDT)")
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <7w1safw0el.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

I have something called sunos-414-source.tar.gz.  It expands to a
solaris_112 directory.  There are sources for kernel, etc, bin ucb,
5bin, usr.bin...  Looks to be sun4 only, no 68k.  No version history.

Free to a good home.  (I sent a copy to Kossow years ago.)


From mphuff at gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 19:46:01 2018
From: mphuff at gmail.com (Michael Huff)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 01:46:01 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Running 4.3 BSD on x86 hardware? Suggestions?
In-Reply-To: <CABq8+zf41d-E-D=Ru4PbM_9B+aawHfEPQ-_Xe0SRefg6xLwY3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABq8+zf41d-E-D=Ru4PbM_9B+aawHfEPQ-_Xe0SRefg6xLwY3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d88f8ac0-eed0-3dbd-7360-1791ba935c2a@gmail.com>

It's not 4.3BSD, but might be worth an honorable mention...

You can get FreeBSD 1.0, (based on 386BSD, based on NET/2), directly 
from the FreeBSD project:

http://ftp-archive.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD-Archive/old-releases/i386/ISO-IMAGES/1.0/1.0-disc1.iso

And then use 86Box ( https://github.com/86Box/86Box/ ) to emulate an 
early 90's 486 and install it with FreeDOS on one partition, FreeBSD on 
the other.  There's an /sbin/mount_isofs but I haven't stumbled across a 
working combination that manages to actually see a cdrom yet. As a 
work-around I copied everything from the "tarballs" directory onto the 
freedos partition and then installed them from there.

It would probably work on Virtualbox, but I haven't tried.

Have fun!

On 8/28/2018 6:53 AM, Gilles Gravier wrote:
> Hi!
>
> If I wanted to run 4.3BSD on an x86 box (VirtualBox? QEMM? other 
> emu?)... anybody has suggestions? Where can I find media for 4.3BSD 
> (if any are legitimately accessible)?
>
> Or on a Raspberry Pi? :)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Gilles
>
> -- 
> /*Gilles Gravier*/ - Gilles at Gravier.org <mailto:Gilles at Gravier.org>
> GSM : +33618347147 and +41794728437
> Skype : ggravier| PGP Key: 0x8DE6D026 
> <http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?search=0x8DE6D026&op=index>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/attachments/20180831/352a228f/attachment.html>

From dave at horsfall.org  Fri Aug 31 19:50:50 2018
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 19:50:50 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <7w1safw0el.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <7w1safw0el.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808311945570.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:

> I have something called sunos-414-source.tar.gz.  It expands to a 
> solaris_112 directory.  There are sources for kernel, etc, bin ucb, 
> 5bin, usr.bin...  Looks to be sun4 only, no 68k.  No version history.
>
> Free to a good home.  (I sent a copy to Kossow years ago.)

Umm, this message is a bit confusing...  Is it a single physical medium 
that you happened to have, or software that you are willing to distribute 
upon some sort of an agreement, or what?

At the very least, it ought to find its way into Warren's hands...

-- Dave


From gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com  Fri Aug 31 21:01:20 2018
From: gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com (Gregg Levine)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:01:20 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808311945570.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <7w1safw0el.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808311945570.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAC5iaNGGtrxyqDtrSbB=5=Zfg3hRuJx2-GDSd+bjhc3YwWJC9w@mail.gmail.com>

Hello!
Of course I am interested. I am as they say, always interested. But I
also agree with Dave there as well. A copy should be delivered to
Warren.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."


On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 5:50 AM, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Aug 2018, Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
>
>> I have something called sunos-414-source.tar.gz.  It expands to a
>> solaris_112 directory.  There are sources for kernel, etc, bin ucb, 5bin,
>> usr.bin...  Looks to be sun4 only, no 68k.  No version history.
>>
>> Free to a good home.  (I sent a copy to Kossow years ago.)
>
>
> Umm, this message is a bit confusing...  Is it a single physical medium that
> you happened to have, or software that you are willing to distribute upon
> some sort of an agreement, or what?
>
> At the very least, it ought to find its way into Warren's hands...
>
> -- Dave


From lars at nocrew.org  Fri Aug 31 21:05:18 2018
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 11:05:18 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] SunOS code?
In-Reply-To: <CAC5iaNGGtrxyqDtrSbB=5=Zfg3hRuJx2-GDSd+bjhc3YwWJC9w@mail.gmail.com>
 (Gregg Levine's message of "Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:01:20 -0400")
References: <20180830194106.9E57818C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <7w1safw0el.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808311945570.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAC5iaNGGtrxyqDtrSbB=5=Zfg3hRuJx2-GDSd+bjhc3YwWJC9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7wr2ievlsh.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

> Hello!
> Of course I am interested. I am as they say, always interested. But I
> also agree with Dave there as well. A copy should be delivered to
> Warren.

Ok, sounds great!


From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Aug 31 21:38:34 2018
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 07:38:34 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] cat -v and other complaints
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808311023210.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAC20D2ODDO+OTUf8wA4bXu9M5M0kswJqT97qRAnV9EOzMGKRvQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808300825340.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20180829233605.GJ8423@mcvoy.com>
 <69AFD606-5E1D-4060-95A5-22F33B2322B2@ccc.com>
 <CAK7dMtDgkkkP1kGbGRt48ON1BrMkN2GSsi8bfe=EeOGT3O8esw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1808311023210.41601@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <147f01d4411f$276e2af0$764a80d0$@ronnatalie.com>

> The standing joke with AIX was that it was pronounced "aches" (as in
pains),
> but I was glad that it ran "smit" for admin stuff, as there was no way
that I
> could remember the appropriate Shell commands.

We wanted to call the window manager "panes" on Aix (Aches and Pains).

My only real memory of beating on the RS/6000 was that while it had a 24-bit
graphics card, the X server didn't have a 24-bit visual.
That and I was able to break into the demo box IBM sent me by turning the
key to the "wrench" position and then shell escaping out of a more command
it launched.

I spent more time hacking the 370/PS2/i860 version of the kernel which was a
unified source base.
This had switching console contexts they called the "High Function
Terminal."    We named our i860 version of it the "Low Function Terminal."




