From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jul  1 21:00:37 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 7:00:37 -0400
Subject: [pups] 11/23 and other qbus machines
Message-ID: <000701070037.262009c5@trailing-edge.com>

>I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23.  It looks like this is kind of
>small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have
>an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think).

Yeah, perhaps the best choice here would be the set of RL02's I found with
a V6 system on RL02 packs.  Hook up a RLV11 or a RLV12, a couple of
RL02 drives, and you're in business.

>How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this
>to things like 11/73,11/83?  I'm wondering if I might one day be able
>to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same
>rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away
>than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away.

It's very similar, but it's also rather likely that the card cage that your
11/23 comes in will only support 18-bit bus addresses.  If you want
to run 2.11BSD that's not really enough memory.  For some
details about what Q-bus hardware supports 18-bit stuff and what 
Q-bus hardware supports 22-bit stuff, please look at your Micronotes,
specifically #5, _Q22 Compatible Options_.  If you aren't lucky enough
to own a set, you can browse them at

http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/micronotes/

In large part, it's impossible to specify a PDP-11 as a "PDP-11/23" and
know with any certainty what any single part of it is.  There's much
more to a system than the CPU (and note there are several very different
CPU boards sold as 11/23's), you also have to consider backplane, memory,
and disk/tape storage.  It'd be nice if Warren linked to some not-on-
Minnie resources for these subjects important to many PUPS members (hint hint,
nudge nudge!)

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jul  1 21:11:44 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:11:44 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: PDP-11 ptrs on minnie
In-Reply-To: <000701070037.262009c5@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jul 1, 2000  7: 0:37 am"
Message-ID: <200007011111.VAA61141@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Tim Shoppa:
> It'd be nice if Warren linked to some not-on-
> Minnie resources for these subjects important to many PUPS members (hint hint,
> nudge nudge!)

Send me the URLs & tell me where on http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS
you'd like to see them :-)

	Warren


From ssfr at unm.edu  Sun Jul  2 12:24:57 2000
From: ssfr at unm.edu (W . Suika Roberts)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:24:57 -0600
Subject: [pups] Pre-startup questions
Message-ID: <20000701202457.A23817@miyuki.genom.co.jp>

I just (yesterday) aquired a microPDP 11/73 -- it had been used by my
school to operate some sort of geological test equipment that is no
longer present, and was working when it went out of service, who knows
how long ago.

She has a pair of RX02s, an RD52a inside her case, and that's all I've
determined so far, since I haven't opened her up, really, yet.

I'm interested in documentation on monitor commands, what the boot
sequence should look like, and other such software stuff right now.

I'm also wondering about useful things like: `Is the part number in a
standard location on each card', `What is the form factor difference
between Q-bus and Unibus', `Will starting her up trip the breaker', and
`How much space is there in that little rackmount'

In the near future, I'd like to find ethernet and SCSI adaptors for her,
and so am wondering where parts might be aquired.

Thanks,
	Suika (very happy) 
-- 
				 ssfr at unm.edu
The computer is not mightier than a cup of coffee, or other liquid, or a young
school age child with a tool box...                          --L. E. Waltz
	  <a href="http://www.unm.edu/~ssfr/">Suika no homepage</a>


From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sun Jul  2 18:25:08 2000
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 09:25:08 +0100
Subject: [pups] Pre-startup questions
In-Reply-To: <20000701202457.A23817@miyuki.genom.co.jp>
References: <20000701202457.A23817@miyuki.genom.co.jp>
Message-ID: <I46DuKAkxvX5Ew3e@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <20000701202457.A23817 at miyuki.genom.co.jp>, W . Suika Roberts
<ssfr at unm.edu> writes
>I just (yesterday) aquired a microPDP 11/73 -- it had been used by my
>school to operate some sort of geological test equipment that is no
>longer present, and was working when it went out of service, who knows
>how long ago.
>
So long as it was working when it was last connected it will probably
work when you switch it on.  these things are fairly reliable.  Once you
have worked out how to boot it you will probably need to get in and
disable the start-up sequence that probably loads the software to run
the test equipment that it was connected to.  Then you can look round
and see what you have got in the way of an operating system.

>She has a pair of RX02s, an RD52a inside her case, and that's all I've
>determined so far, since I haven't opened her up, really, yet.
>
Ok, an RD52 isn't very big, you will need to look at increasing that if
you want useful disk space.  The best disc will be an RD54 if the disc
controller supports it.  Failing that there are articles in the archive
(I think) about using non DEC discs with their controllers.

When you get round to adding operating systems and the like, a simple
tape controller and drive would be an advantage.  Anything like a TK50
or TS11 set up would help.

>I'm interested in documentation on monitor commands, what the boot
>sequence should look like, and other such software stuff right now.
>

Ok, some one can probably copy the docs for you.  For a start, when you
switch it on the monitor will show a boot sequence as it counts through
a set of numbers.  These are the internal tests.  during this list press
control C and a prompt should come up, then press H followed by return,
that should give you enough pointers to go through the on board help, a
little skimpy but its a start.

With luck you should be able to interrupt the boot sequence of the
operating system to prevent it going over to the final application.
This way you can have a see around inside and find out what OS you have
and start playing.

>I'm also wondering about useful things like: `Is the part number in a
>standard location on each card', `What is the form factor difference
>between Q-bus and Unibus', `Will starting her up trip the breaker', and
>`How much space is there in that little rackmount'
>

The part number is usually engraved on the handle of the card.  This
will be something like M7555.  There is a list in the archive that
should allow you to relate between these numbers and the card
description.

Q BUS and UNIBUS cards have, in the quad versions, similar form factors,
however they are NOT interchangeable as the bus specs are totally
different.

You should be able to put a singe BA23 box 11/73 into a domestic power
outlet without burning the house down.


You will probably find the bus has 3 or 4 spare slots.  This is based on
a processor card, say 2 memory cards, an MSCP (disc) controller and some
serial ports.  What ever the system was that it was connected to may
also have an interface card.

>In the near future, I'd like to find ethernet and SCSI adaptors for her,
>and so am wondering where parts might be aquired.
>
Both parts are available, ethernet is easy and comparatively cheap.
SCSI is easy and expensive.  You can get SCSI controllers for tape, disc
and both but be surprised at the price. There are many places that sell
boards for these beasts, some one in your area could give you much
better advice than me.

>Thanks,
>       Suika (very happy) 


So I should think :-)

Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome


From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Tue Jul 11 02:32:33 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:32:33 -0400
Subject: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software?
Message-ID: <000710123233.202002e2@trailing-edge.com>

In a big batch of 9-tracks and RL01 packs rescued this morning, I have
two tapes, one labeled

          AT&T
       ** 66938 **

 UNIX OPERATING SYSTEM FOR
 WRITERS WORKBENCH SOFTWARE

 TPname: LOAD PGM FOR PDP 11/70

the other labeled

          AT&T
       ** 66611 **
  UNIX OPERATING SYSTEM
  WRITERS WORKBENCH SOFTWARE

  TPname: LOAD PGM FOR VAX 11/780 11/750

Both have copyright dates of 1984.  You can see scans of the original
labels (high-res scans, they're big files!) at

  http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/wwtapes/

I won't be able to make binary copies of these until this evening, but does
anyone know where these tapes fit into the scheme of AT&T stuff?  i.e.
are these custom-built SYS III and SYS V systems?  Is the PDP-11/70 tape
perhaps eligible for inclusion in the PUPS archive under the SCO license?

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From cjd at sunmexico.sun.com  Tue Jul 11 08:54:53 2000
From: cjd at sunmexico.sun.com (Cuenta para lectura de e-mail)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:54:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software?
Message-ID: <200007102255.RAA16145@sunmex.sunmexico.Sun.COM>

I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench,
which was a special version of V6.  I think WWB was where "pic" first showed
up.  PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added.  WWB may be the same.

	- Chris

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Tue Jul 11 09:51:19 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:51:19 -0400
Subject: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software?
Message-ID: <000710195119.202002e2@trailing-edge.com>

>I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench,
>which was a special version of V6.  I think WWB was where "pic" first showed
>up.  PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added.  WWB may be the same.

I don't think what I've found here is that major.  It starts
with a Makefile:

# NOTICE-NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE BELL SYS EXCEPT UNDER WRITTEN AGRMT
#             Makefile: Writer's Workbench system version 2.0.1.10, 5/26/83
#               makefile for the WRITER'S WORKBENCH SYSTEM
#       This package includes over 30 programs that suggest improvements
#       to written documents, including improved versions of the
#       Style  and Diction programs as well as many more writing aids.

and the README says:

       This file gives instructions for building and installing the Writer's
       Workbench system source  code.  This information is also contained
       in the document "UNIX(TM) Writer's Workbench Software Installation
       and Administration Guide."

These particular tapes have been stored in absolutely horrible conditions
(pretty much kept in an outdoors storage shed during both winter and summer for
the past decade) and I'm going to have to bake and/or lubricate them before I
make a not-half-assed attempt at recovering them.  The PDP11/70 tape is
particularly bad (it actually broke when I was just loading it into
the drive!) and it may be a goner.

I don't see any obvious mentions of 'pic' in what I read so far.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From grant.maizels at cogita.com.au  Tue Jul 11 10:21:30 2000
From: grant.maizels at cogita.com.au (Grant Maizels)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:21:30 +1000
Subject: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Softw
	are?
Message-ID: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583@sydnt4.cogita.local>

Tim,

Writers Work Bench was an extension to the basic troff/nroff tools developed
earlier, but took new directions. It included a whole lot of new programs
like diction (a grammar checker??) which were more to do with the content
than the formatting. I think that pic was developed separately by bwk for a
research version. I have never used WWB but I have some documentation on it
somewhere at home. I believe that it was sold with source as an add on for
various Unicies.

Grant Maizels
grant at maizels.nu

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Shoppa [mailto:SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2000 9:51
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench
Software?


>I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's
Workbench,
>which was a special version of V6.  I think WWB was where "pic" first
showed
>up.  PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added.  WWB may be the
same.

I don't think what I've found here is that major.  It starts
with a Makefile:

# NOTICE-NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE BELL SYS EXCEPT UNDER WRITTEN AGRMT
#             Makefile: Writer's Workbench system version 2.0.1.10, 5/26/83
#               makefile for the WRITER'S WORKBENCH SYSTEM
#       This package includes over 30 programs that suggest improvements
#       to written documents, including improved versions of the
#       Style  and Diction programs as well as many more writing aids.

and the README says:

       This file gives instructions for building and installing the Writer's
       Workbench system source  code.  This information is also contained
       in the document "UNIX(TM) Writer's Workbench Software Installation
       and Administration Guide."

These particular tapes have been stored in absolutely horrible conditions
(pretty much kept in an outdoors storage shed during both winter and summer
for
the past decade) and I'm going to have to bake and/or lubricate them before
I
make a not-half-assed attempt at recovering them.  The PDP11/70 tape is
particularly bad (it actually broke when I was just loading it into
the drive!) and it may be a goner.

I don't see any obvious mentions of 'pic' in what I read so far.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From schoedel at kw.igs.net  Tue Jul 11 12:12:45 2000
From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:12:45 -0400
Subject: [pups] RE: AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Softw 	are?
In-Reply-To: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583@sydnt4.cogita.local>
References: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583@sydnt4.cogita.local>
Message-ID: <v04210100b5902e0219c2@[216.58.99.172]>

On 2000/07/11 at 10:21am +1000, Grant Maizels
<grant.maizels at cogita.com.au> wrote:
>Writers Work Bench was an extension to the basic troff/nroff tools developed
>earlier, but took new directions. It included a whole lot of new programs
>like diction (a grammar checker??) which were more to do with the content
>than the formatting. I think that pic was developed separately by bwk for a
>research version. I have never used WWB but I have some documentation on it
>somewhere at home. I believe that it was sold with source as an add on for
>various Unicies.

I have a little documentation here, mostly three papers from BSTJ vol. 62
no. 6, July/August 1983. It did contain -- as the makefile says --
'diction' (basically a search for 'bad' phrases), 'style' (which
generated readabilty and other statistics for text), 'punct' (a basic
punctuation checker), and a handful of other similar programs.

Importantly for the PUPS archive, I'm pretty certain that AT&T retained
ownership of WWB when it sold UNIX, so it wouldn't be covered by the SCO
license. I have no idea who owns it now.

'pic', along with troff and such, was in *Documenter's* Workbench.

-- 
Kevin Schoedel
schoedel at kw.igs.net


From vandys at zendo.com  Mon Jul 24 00:05:19 2000
From: vandys at zendo.com (Andy Valencia)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:05:19 -0700
Subject: [pups] Eh...
Message-ID: <200007231405.HAA00405@vandys-pc.zendo.com>

I should mention that "at rl0 ..." also doesn't work:

sim> at rl0 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145
sim> b rl0
@/
@/

HALT instruction, PC: 000002 (HALT)
sim>

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From vandys at zendo.com  Mon Jul 24 00:03:02 2000
From: vandys at zendo.com (Andy Valencia)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:03:02 -0700
Subject: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting
Message-ID: <200007231403.HAA00392@vandys-pc.zendo.com>

I'm trying to boot the image v7_rl02_1145 from sim_2.3d, and get:

PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> at rl02 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145
sim> b rl02
@

I can type things to the '@' prompt, but it never does anything unless I
type '/', at which point it bombs back to the emulator.  My scan of the
documentation for bootstraps doesn't point out any state with an '@'
prompt... help?

I can't tell you how many years it's been since I've had access to an '11
running V7.  Looking forward to it!

Thanks,
Andy Valencia

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Mon Jul 24 08:22:52 2000
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:22:52 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting
In-Reply-To: <200007231403.HAA00392@vandys-pc.zendo.com> from Andy Valencia at
 "Jul 23, 2000 07:03:02 am"
Message-ID: <200007232222.IAA28671@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Andy Valencia:
> I'm trying to boot the image v7_rl02_1145 from sim_2.3d, and get:
> 
> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
> sim> at rl02 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145
> sim> b rl02
> @
> 
> I can type things to the '@' prompt, but it never does anything...
> Andy Valencia

At the bottom of simh_doc.txt in the Supnik emulator sources, it says:

UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image.  To boot UNIX:

        sim> set cpu 18b
        sim> set rl0 RL02
        sim> att rl0 unix_v7_rl.dsk
        sim> boot rl0
        @boot
        New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt
        : rl(0,0)rl2unix
        # 

A smaller image is contained on a single RK05 disk image.  To boot UNIX:

        sim> set cpu 18b
        sim> att rk0 unix_v7_rk.dsk
        sim> boot rk0
        @boot
        New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt
        : rk(0,0)rkunix
        # STTY -LCASE
        #

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
	Warren


From vandys at zendo.com  Mon Jul 24 16:56:56 2000
From: vandys at zendo.com (Andy Valencia)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 06:56:56 +0000
Subject: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:22:52 +1000."
             <200007232222.IAA28671@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> 
Message-ID: <200007240656.e6O6uu726697@zendo.com>

[Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:]

>UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image.  To boot UNIX:
>...
>Hope this helps!

Thanks!  (Don't know how I missed this. :-<)

Yes, it helped, and I'm now the proud owner of a (virtual) single-user V7 box.

Time to hack!

Andy Valencia

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From rblair at webteksdesign.com  Tue Jul 25 10:08:16 2000
From: rblair at webteksdesign.com (Ryan Blair)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:08:16 -0400
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
Message-ID: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200>

In the same rut as Andy Valencia:

I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
after I shut it down in the emulator.

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jul 25 10:14:09 2000
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
In-Reply-To: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> from Ryan Blair at "Jul
 24, 2000 08:08:16 pm"
Message-ID: <200007250014.KAA35364@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Ryan Blair:
[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
> I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
> directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
> with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
> filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
> gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
> after I shut it down in the emulator.

I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.

I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone)
to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the
Supnik and Ersatz emulators.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jul 25 10:22:40 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:52:40 +0930
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
In-Reply-To: <200007250014.KAA35364@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 10:14:09AM +1000
References: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> <200007250014.KAA35364@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000725095240.B98476@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 25 July 2000 at 10:14:09 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Ryan Blair:
> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
>> In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
>> I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
>> directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
>> with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
>> filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
>> gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
>> after I shut it down in the emulator.
>
> I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.
>
> I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone)
> to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the
> Supnik and Ersatz emulators.

I had some somewhere, but I haven't run them for a while.  They're
also very big.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From jeremy at mail.flyingcroc.net  Tue Jul 25 10:37:47 2000
From: jeremy at mail.flyingcroc.net (Jeremy Bingham)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0007241715580.62180-100000@gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net>

I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a
RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't 
have a tape drive. My questions are:

1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines?

2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off?

3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
and/or format RX50 floppies?

I tried looking through the mail archive, but there didn't seem to be anything
there that addressed this question. Thanks in advance to everybody.

-j

----------------------------------------------------------

You know you've been spending too much time on the computer when your
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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jul 25 13:00:06 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
Message-ID: <200007250300.UAA22851@moe.2bsd.com>

Howdy -

> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> In article by Ryan Blair:
> > In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
> > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
> > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
> > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
> > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt.
> 
> I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.

	Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt.

	Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I 
	forget who it was) having "massive corruption".   It turned out that
	the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode).  Once
	the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems
	cleared right up.   A good case can be made that it's a bug the system
	doesn't outright crash if it's unhappy with the amount of memory but
	given it's so easy to 'add memory' to the system I can't work up any
	enthusiasm to track down and fix the problem ;)

> I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone)
> to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the
> Supnik and Ersatz emulators.

	Well, one could take the tape images that are in the archive and
	run the suitable tape preparation program ('makesimtape' for Supnik's
	simulator and I think makesimtape.c is around in the archive as well).
	Might need a "toggle in" boot for that (it's in the 2.11 setup and
	installation guide) though since I do not recall the Supnik simulator
	knowing how to boot from tape.

	Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu
	22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help).


	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jul 25 13:18:29 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
Message-ID: <200007250318.UAA23005@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi!

> From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy at mail.flyingcroc.net>
> I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a

	Wow - that's a source for PDP-11s I would never have thought of :)

> RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't 
> have a tape drive. My questions are:

> 1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines?

	I think we need just one more little piece of information before we
	can match up a version of Unix with your new machine.

	We need to know if it's an 11/23 (23+), or an 11/53 (73).   The 
	label "MicroPDP-11" was used on a number of systems.   If it's a 53
	or better then you can run any of the PDP-11 Unix systems that are
	out there.  If it's a 23 class machine then you're limited to V7
	or earlier (2.9BSD would probably fit but it would be a struggle and
	you definitely wouldn't be able to use the networking).

	Looking at the system maint register with the console ODT would
	probably be the easiest way to determine the cpu type - examine
	location 177750 (or 17777750 depending if the system needs the 
	explicit 22 bit address).  Bits 4 thru 7 tell the module type:
	5 = KDJ-11E (93, 94), 4 = KDJ-11D (53), 3 = KXJ11-C, 2 = KDJ11B
	(quad high 73), 1 = KDJ-11A (dual high board 73).   If it's a 23 the
	sys maint register probably doesn't exist.

	Another way would be to look at the module number on the spine of the
	card ;)

> 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off?

	A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system.  V7 will
	fit I think.

> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
> and/or format RX50 floppies?

	Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that.
	Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow
	(DOS) system around.

	On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with
	some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard
	5.25" Teac floppy drive.   I don't have the location of the info for
	that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 
	newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there).

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From entropy at zippy.bernstein.com  Tue Jul 25 14:16:09 2000
From: entropy at zippy.bernstein.com (maximum entropy)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:16:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
In-Reply-To: <200007250318.UAA23005@moe.2bsd.com> (sms@moe.2bsd.com)
References: <200007250318.UAA23005@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <200007250416.e6P4G9T17046@zippy.bernstein.com>

>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT)
>From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
>
>> From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy at mail.flyingcroc.net>
>> [...]
>> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
>> and/or format RX50 floppies?
>
>	Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that.
>	Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow
>	(DOS) system around.
>
>	On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with
>	some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard
>	5.25" Teac floppy drive.   I don't have the location of the info for
>	that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 
>	newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there).

http://vaxarchive.org/hw/rx50.html
...contains a good FAQ with some useful links, including a link to
John Wilson's stuff at DBIT.

I'm also appending here a file with some informative messages on the
subject.  I had this file stored away with a bunch of Venix images for
the Pro.  I don't remember if this file (RX50.notes) came with the
Venix stuff, or if I collected them together myself.  I'm pretty sure
it's the former, but I couldn't find any links to it by searching the
net.  Anyway, here it is...

>From barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Tue Aug  4 08:14:38 1992
>From: barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 2 Aug 92 11:53:41 GMT
>Organization: MicroMuse
>In-reply-to: keithr at garfield.cs.mun.ca's message of 1 Aug 92 01:10:53 GMT
>
>I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50
>diskettes.  What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which
>spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive.  
>
>RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on 
>the disks.  If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure,
>which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS
>directory structure.
>
>To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11
>which groks the RT11 file structure.  I have not yet found a similar
>utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series.
>
>I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette
>in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector,
>not by logical file.
>
>I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former
>Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for
>manipulating RX50 diskettes.
>
>Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can
>low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then
>put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization.
>This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted
>or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes.
>
>Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one 
>drive to a blank diskette in another drive.  (This kind of copy will fail
>if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt
>to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.)
>
>Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the
>COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA
>card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging
>>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators,
>Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by
>DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities.
>
>None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom
>line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes
>and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines.
>
>Barry Kort
>
>From cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug  4 08:14:48 1992
>From: cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 2 Aug 92 19:45:22 GMT
>Organization: University of Houston
>X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
>
>barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes:
>: 
>: Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can
>: low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then
>: put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization.
>: This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted
>: or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes.
>: 
>: Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one 
>: drive to a blank diskette in another drive.  (This kind of copy will fail
>: if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt
>: to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.)
>
> 
>Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to
>use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC.  Not only
>does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also
>store a disk into a file (on the PC).  This way, it is possible to keep an
>image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies
>easily.
> 
>In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class
>drives seem to work out best.
> 
>-andy
>
>From lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug  4 08:14:56 1992
>From: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 06:39:56 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <1992Aug2.194522.18244 at menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes:
>> 
>>Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to
>>use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC.  Not only
>>does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also
>>store a disk into a file (on the PC).  This way, it is possible to keep an
>>image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies
>>easily.
>
>Where can I obtain Teledisk?  Does it require any low-level preformatting
>of the media on the target?
>
>IF you use DR-DOS and RAINDOS (but not RX50DRVR) you can use DISKCOPY and
>DISKCOMP to copy RX50 MS-DOS diskettes to each other, or to files on the
>hard disk:
>
>DISKCOPY E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG
>
>DISKCOPY E: E:
>
>DISKCOPY C:\RX50DISK.IMG E:
>
>DISKCOMP E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG
>
>When writing the file or disk image onto a target disk, the diskette has to
>be already formatted as a low-level RX50, yet there are no high-level
>considerations, so non-DOS RX50's can be directly used as targets!
>
>Of course input diskettes have to already be MS-DOS RX50 DECmate II/Rainbow
>diskettes because of DOS restrictions.
>
>Note that DOS 5 cannot do anything but "standard" disk sizes, and can't
>copy disk images to files at all.
>
>> 
>>In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class
>>drives seem to work out best.
>
>And without hub rings is better.  If you suspect that a disk is actually
>high-density when it has no hub rings, there is a simple test:
>
>Just format it as a normal 1.2 Meg disk.  a low-density diskette will get
>hundreds of Kbytes in bad sectors, while a HD diskette will get little or
>no errors, thus proving it unsuitable for RX50 purposes.  Most disks with
>hub rings are already clearly low-density, but after you remove them, this
>will prove a quick check for actual diskette formulation.
>
>cjl
>
>From cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug  4 08:15:02 1992
>From: cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 16:42:35 GMT
>Organization: University of Houston
>X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
>
>lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>: 
>: Where can I obtain Teledisk?  Does it require any low-level preformatting
>: of the media on the target?
>: 
>I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory 
>"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip".
>
>Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting.  It's possible
>to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go.  Incidently, teledisk is
>made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk.
>
>-andy
>
>From cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug  4 08:15:11 1992
>From: cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 16:54:30 GMT
>Organization: University of Houston
>X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
>
>: I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory 
>: "mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip".
>
>Correction, it's spelled "wuarchive.wustl.edu" with a missing 'e'.
> 
>Host nic.switch.ch   (130.59.1.40)
>    Location: /mirror/msdos/dskutl
>      FILE      rw-rw-r--     93805  Dec 23  1990   teled212.zip
> 
>Host ftp.uu.net   (137.39.1.9)
>    Location: /systems/msdos/simtel20/dskutl
>      FILE      rw-r--r--     93805  Dec 22  1990   teled212.zip
> 
>Host wuarchive.wustl.edu   (128.252.135.4)
>    Location: /mirrors3/garbo.uwasa.fi/diskutil
>      FILE      rw-rw-r--     94075  Dec 11  1990   teled212.zip
>    Location: /mirrors/msdos/dskutl
>      FILE      rw-r--r--     93805  Dec 23  1990   teled212.zip
> 
>archie>
>
>From lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug  4 08:15:17 1992
>From: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 4 Aug 92 05:55:11 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <1992Aug3.164235.1187 at menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes:
>>lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>>: 
>>: Where can I obtain Teledisk?  Does it require any low-level preformatting
>>: of the media on the target?
>>: 
>>I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory 
>>"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip".
>>
>>Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting.  It's possible
>>to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go.  Incidently, teledisk is
>>made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk.
>>
>>-andy
>
>Sydex also makes RAINDOS.
>
>I suspect that teledisk will only make sector-compatible descendents though,
>so if I have a specially layed-out version of a diskette (such as 2:1
>interleave or staggered, etc.) the descendent will lose that aspect of
>optimization, and will instead become "vanilla" RX50 format in the
>case of RX50 diskette.
>
>The point is that certain software, especially for DECmates not specifically
>geared to CP/M-80, and *any* bootable DECmate diskette (including CP/M-80) the
>format used in stock RX50 layout is non-optimal.  There are different 
>requirements for different specific applications, but just as on PC's, the
>use of non-interleaved non-staggered disks can be demonstrated to be
>inferior to a variant in terms of sector ordering at the low format level.
>
>Rainbow MS-DOS disks have an implied software interleave of 2:1 for the
>FAT area, and 1:1 in the rest; this is in software, so the standard disk
>layout should be maintained, except that the *stagger* is not taken into
>account.  Thus, like a PC, Rainbow MS-DOS disks should be formatted with a
>stagger of 2 per track.  Thus track 1 is layed out 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and
>track 2 is layed out 9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8.  When the disk seeks from track 1
>to track 2, it will thus miss 9 and 10, but immediately find 1.  Were the
>stagger not there, it would miss 1 and 2, and reject 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 while
>waiting for 1 to come around again.  Thus staggering relieves rotational
>latency.
>
>For the DECmate, there are two additional problems:
>
>All bootable diskettes require the logically sequential reading of tracks
>78, 79 in the order 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.  But the RX
>interface of the DECmate can't perform 1:1 interleave ever, so this is
>anti-optimal not only in stagger but more importantly in interleave.  Thus, 
>this area of the disk should be formatted with an interleave of 2:1 as well
>as a stagger of 2.  Thus the disk is layed out:
>
>track 78: 1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9,5,10
>track 79: 5,10,1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9
>
>This restriction is based on the ROM routines that read in this area in linear
>order.  This is mostly why all DECmates take so long to boot up!  Changing to
>a better sector order will chop seconds out of the boot time.
>
>Further, all systems other than CP/M-80 require some form of help, mostly
>applying the stagger that helps the Rainbow as well (again other than CP/M).
>For DECmate MS-DOS, tracks 0-3 should be in 1-1 interleave because the software
>already maps the disk in 2:1 usage.  tracks 4-79 should be formatted 2:1
>interleave to help out the RX interface when the Rainbow-optimal ordering
>is invoked (similar to the DECmate ROM access, and just as inefficient on
>a DECmate).
>
>OS/278 does a software 2:1 interleave, so the only help needed is a
>disk-wide stagger factor of 2.
>
>Note that RT-11 and all other -11-oriented disks should use stock format only
>because this superior software maps all sectors to include both the 2-1
>interleave and stagger of 2 already.
>
>So, if Teledisk is a *really* good utility, it won't disturb the format's
>stagger and interleave as it copies the disks!
>
>cjl
>
>From lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug  4 08:15:23 1992
>From: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <BARRY.92Aug2075341 at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes:
>>I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50
>>diskettes.  What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which
>>spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive.  
>
>RX50DRVR, like RAINDOS, creates a new logical drive past your last existent
>drive, so it's F: for you because you apparently have an A: through E: before
>the driver gets loaded in CONFIG.SYS.
>
>>
>>RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on 
>>the disks.  If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure,
>>which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS
>>directory structure.
>
>That's not quite true, since the disk organization has to be DOS as implemented
>on DECmate II MSDOS/Rainbow MS-DOS only.  It is true only in the sense that
>you can make your own BIOS calls to read the disks yourself without caring
>about the significence.  But that's no different from doing so with any
>floppy on a PC.
>
>>
>>To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11
>>which groks the RT11 file structure.  I have not yet found a similar
>>utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series.
>
>Where can I get this RT11 utility?  It sounds useful.  Does it specifically
>require/recognize the RX50DRVR or does it merely work in an innocuous way
>with the same drive letter?  (Would it work also with A:? or must it have
>RX50DRVR present.  If so, would it work with RAINDOS as an alternative?)
>
>>
>>I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette
>>in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector,
>>not by logical file.
>>
>>I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former
>>Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for
>>manipulating RX50 diskettes.
>
>Re the Soviet-originating files:
>
>The files come with a piece of shareware originating in Italy that intercepts
>DOS's calls for formatting commands, so that "odd" sizes, such as using:
>FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 are now legal.  The result is a double-sided disk that
>is quite suitably low-level formatted for RX50, but the high-level is PC
>compatible, *not* DECmate/Rainbow's idea of MS-DOS, and specifically must be
>used on a "normal" drive and *not* with RX50DRVR.  All media indicators are
>stock PC-type, not RX50.  However, since the low-level is now correct, and
>errors are recorded in a way that FORMAT indicated when it finished, and can
>be re-confirmed with CHKDSK, etc., the media can be determined to be error-
>free hopefully.  If so, then the companion program RX50INIT that comes with
>RX50DRVR can be used to initialize the directory so DECmate/Rainbow MS-DOS
>likes the disk, and of course the RX50DRVR-controlled logical device such as
>F: in your example.  Note also that RX50INIT can be used with RAINDOS as well.
>Also, RX50INIT requires ANSI.SYS be loaded purely for cosmetic reasons.
>RX50DRVR and RX50INIT were designed for DOS 3.3 usage.  They don't support the
>extensions to DOS brought into versions 4 and 5, so there are some problems.
>RX50INIT fails totally in those two systems, and CHKDSK can't work there
>either.  With some adjustment to the BUFFERS= statement in CONFIG.SYS, they
>can be made to work for read/write purposes under DOS 4 or 5.  
>
>
>When used with DR-DOS 6.0, all RX50DRVR and RX50INIT functions work fine.
>
>
>>
>>Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can
>>low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then
>>put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization.
>>This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted
>>or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes.
>
>Just a word about using HD media:
>
>You can't reliably use HD media on an actual RX50, because the coercivity
>is too far off in HD media.  It was designed for the higher-frequency
>recording of the "real" 1.2 Meg format (500 KHz) and not the 250 KHz recording
>rate of the RX50, which is actually the same as good 'ol DS/DD media (360K
>kid of media).  Some revisions of RX50 drive in comination with certain RX
>controllers in some DEC machins fare better than others, but it can be
>demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD
>media.
>
>The designated media for RX50 is Maxell MD1DD-RX50 or equivalent, which is
>what used to be called "quad" media.  This is well-honed low-density media,
>so it is rated for use on 96 TPI (80 track) drives, not just 48 TPI (40 track)
>drives as is usual.  Note that MD2D is not MD2DD.  (The 2 just means two-sided
>which for all intents and purposes today can be ignored; virtuall *all* media
>is actually made double-sided :-).)  The DD means 80-track support, but since
>most media are made well-honed, most cheap disks can support 80 tracks anyway.
>These disks will *not* cause I/O errors on any RX50!  However, long-term usage
>requires the hub rings be removed completely (use alcohol to get the sticky
>stuff off, or ask your supplier for no-hub disks!).  Failing to remove
>hub rings means eventually the disks will get unreliable sooner than they
>ought to due to registration problems.  All 96 TPI disks have this problem.
>Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings!  It is rumored that there is
>a "premium" line of diskettes from Fuji apart from their standard line of
>inexpensive diskettes that has a specially reinforced hub area, that isn't
>a hub ring per se.  If the same mechanism is used in both HD and DD media, 
>then the DD type would be the best thing today to use with impunity for
>RX50.  Clearly the MD1DD or MD2DD or MD1DD or the 3M equivalents are too
>expensive, considering that what we want are the cheapest types of diskettes
>with the hub rings never added.  (We don't want to pay more for less!)
>
>Re RT-11 utility:
>
>I don't know anything about the RT11 utility program, but RX50DRVR cannot
>format disks; the code lacks support for the FORMAT command, and also some
>calls needed by both CHKDSK and FORMAT.  Attempts to use either on DOS 4
>or 5 will get error messages.  Even on 3.3, where CHKDSK is more "forgiving"
>you still get the message about "format not supported on device" when
>using RX50DRVR.  So, if your claim for formatting is true, the RT11 utility
>must contain low-level formatting code of its own, and perhaps only needs
>RX50DRVR to locate the proper device?
>
>RAINDOS is a share-ware mostly superset of RX50DRVR, and it totally supports
>CHKDSK and FORMAT in DOS 4 and 5.  It works fine with RX50INIT (assuming that
>RX50INIT can work!) and suffers from only two known problems:
>
>1)	Should you specify a format command with the FORMAT F: command,
>and the O/S is DR-DOS 6, then if it really does attempt a low-level format,
>it gets a cryptic error message and fails.  Note that MS-DOS 5 and DR-DOS 6
>will always attempt a "quick" format if possible, unless over-ridden.  This
>case of a quick format doesn't fail, but also isn't formatting!  Just 
>rewriting a cleaned-up high-level format directory initialize.
>
>2)	It is sometimes strangely slow, as compared to RX50DRVR where both
>could work.  When using Norton 4.5's DT program, RX50DRVR handles the
>disk at normal speed, and allows DT to mark bad clusters (if any) quite
>nicely.  When RAINDOS is used, it causes many recalibrates for unknown
>reasons.  In some cases, the sloth isn't that noticeable, but this is a
>sore point usage.
>
>Otherwise, RAINDOS is a total replacement for RX50DRVR, or so it would seem.
>Norton NU treats RX50DRVR diskettes and RAINDOS diskettes equally since it
>does one-sector I/O.
>
>>
>>Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one 
>>drive to a blank diskette in another drive.  (This kind of copy will fail
>>if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt
>>to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.)
>>
>>Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the
>>COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA
>>card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging
>>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators,
>>Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by
>>DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities.
>>
>>None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom
>>line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes
>>and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines.
>>
>>Barry Kort
>
>If the Soviet files prove to work, and apparently requiring the Italian
>TSR shareware program, we can probably make Files-11 RX50 diskettes as well.
>I have just received these programs and will be evaluating them when feasible.
>I am still working with the accompanying Italian shareware which has some
>interesting "generic" features of its own with respect to the entire RX50
>issue.  I suspect that its presence enhances any of these utilities, although
>it's possible redundant and perhaps extraneous to some of the utilities.
>
>In any case, there are many ways to get files moved around.
>
>Another excellent package is 22DISK from Sydex, the same shareware author
>as RAINDOS.  This package low-level formats RX50's in either DECmate CP/M-80
>or Rainbow CP/M-80/86 format.  (They are similar, but not identical, although
>they can read each other's disks no sweat; it's a matter of interleave, etc.
>and a throughput issue, not a format per se issue.)  It then high-level
>formats the disks for CP/M usage.  So, its a good place to do the low-level
>formatting required for all of these other utilities.  For example, on
>DR-DOS 6, you first run 22DISK to format the disk, then use RX50INIT to get
>an RX50 MS-DOS DECmate/Rainbow high-level structure, and then can use
>RAINDOS to transfer files, run CHKDSK, and do quick-formats with FORMAT /Q,
>etc.  Notice this avoids all of the Raindos/DR-DOS interaction :-).
>
>22DISK can get directory listings of CP/M disks, and can transfer files
>to/from MS-DOS from/to the designated CP/M diskette.  It supports literally
>hundreds of CP/M formats, which implies many low and high-level support
>variants.  This program is highly reminiscent of the former Rainbow, and
>later PC-based "Media Master" program, but is for PC/MS-DOS only, and
>requires HD drives for the RX50 formats.
>
>I believe there is an obscure PRO option for a CP/M-80 board, so this might
>be yet another way to get files in/out of a PRO.
>
>So, like cats, there are many ways to "skin" an RX50 :-).
>
>cjl
>
>From lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug  4 08:15:29 1992
>From: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Good report on Teledisk.
>Date: 4 Aug 92 07:27:25 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>I have down-loaded Sydex's teledisk, and have found it to exceed my
>expectations in some useful ways.
>
>For starters, all of my attentions are based on the problems of distributing
>RX50 diskettes not necessarily in stock format, and not yet having any
>satisfactory way of creating the necessary disks.
>
>Background:
>
>There are several desirable variant formats for RX50 that have been discussed
>elsewhere.  The only known program to create them is FDFORMAT for PC's.  While
>this freeware program is generally quite good, it has a few crucial bugs that
>make it unsuitable for RX50 usage.  It is conceivable that this will be
>solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create
>usable disks, but in any case, the use of all obvious parameters yields disks
>that are flakey on some RX50's, and downright unreadable on others.  In
>addition, these disks are so messed up that a DECmate can't even WRITE on the
>disks and read back what it just wrote reliably!  Yet, this isn't a media
>problem because it can be demonstrated that the problem disappears by
>low-level format of the same diskette with either Sydex's RAINDOS or 22DISK
>packages.  (Note that *some* RX50 systems using some newer-designed controllers
>and/or higher revision drives and/or RX50-compatibility modes on different
>drives have little or no problems with these FDFORMATted diskettes; indeed
>the diskettes are fine on a PC; there's some low-level detail that's incorrect
>about FDFORMATted diskettes.  Some parameter is being set to a PC-acceptable
>value that doesn't center on RX50's requirements.  Perhaps this will be
>uncovered at a later time obviating this entire discussion.  Until such a 
>time, FDFORMAT cannot be used to create RX50 diskettes that are readable on
>*all* RX50 systems.  FDFORMAT also has a few other operational bugs, such as
>incorrect recognition of certain I/O errors, etc., but these are exception
>cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.)
>
>The reason why FDFORMAT is desirable is that it is the only known program
>capable of creating the variant RX50 formats where the format must be
>done with interleave and stagger factors, especially if the disk must have
>"zones" where the format changes.  For example, to create a disk best suited
>for DECmate OS/278 usage, the following *TWO* commands should be given:
>
>FDFORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 /I:2
>FDFORMAT A: /T:78 /N:10 /1 /Y:2
>
>The first command creates a disk with an interleave of 2:1 and a stagger of
>2 throughout.  The second command changes tracks 0-77 to have 1:1 interleave
>and a stagger of 2 throughout.
>
>When OS/278 is copied onto such a diskette, the "slushware" tracks are read
>in much faster than on standard RX50 diskettes, and all access to the rest of
>the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes
>the software's lack of stagger mapping.  But since the software does map the
>sector order into a 2:1 interleave, the hardware order must stay in 1:1
>interleave sequence.
>
>This would be a nice disk to use for the intended purpose, but many DECmates
>will be unable to read this diskette.  Literally, it will get a CRC error
>on *every* sector!  Furthermore, if you attempt to write an image of the
>software onto this diskette, it will get a CRC error on *every* sector even
>though it just wrote the disk out!
>
>Enter Teledisk to the rescue!
>
>When I read Teledisk's documentation, I had doubts that it could solve
>this problem, because I noticed it could be quite "smart", perhaps *too*
>smart!  It claims that it can get around certain copy-protection methods
>by virtue of how it operates, so I figured that it would likely copy the
>problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(.  Or, alternatively, it might guess that
>the diskette was an RX50 and proceed to format it in a stock manner, thus
>destroying the optimization applied by using the two FDFORMAT commands instead
>of just using RAINDOS or 22DISK to create stock low-level RX50 diskettes.
>
>Well, I was wrong on both counts!
>
>Teledisk understands how to maintain sector order, and pointed out the
>change of interleave from 1:1 to 2:1 at track 78, so that problem is
>hurdled.
>
>Teledisk understands that these sectors should be formatted with apparently
>the same parameters as the formatting routines in 22DISK and RAINDOS, so the
>resultant disk *is* readable on DECmates!  Of course, this is *not* an
>"exact" copy, but rather it is a "better" copy.  Apparently Teledisk only
>writes sectors in a "sane" format, and the copy-protection they refer to
>is the class of "funny" sector ordering, size, or count, not any lower-level
>details.  Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also
>within Teledisk, thus since Teledisk recognizes the disk as a 10-sector/track
>512 bytes/sector disk, it writes it as would RAINDOS, etc., except Teledisk
>is sensitive to sector ordering unlike the other Sydex programs, etc.
>
>Thus, the descendent disk is actually *better* than the original.  I can now
>therefore distribute diskettes in the intended format for working-copy usage
>of the best effort of each diskette :-).
>
>Additionally, if I modify distribution diskettes to be in their intended
>format instead of their original stock format (virtually all diskettes that
>need to be distributed are in stock RX50 format, because the need to create
>optimal diskette layout is generally newer than the software; indeed, this
>entire effort is to distribute software that performs *better* than the
>original!), then the master disks should be copied with Teledisk to create
>perfect copies in one step.
>
>There are additional advantages:
>
>Teledisk can also create an MS-DOS file that is the image of the diskette
>in either a rudimentary-compressed or advanced-compressed form.  These files
>can be transmitted down the net and then reconstructed on PC-AT's for use
>on RX50 targets.  Since they are compressed, this minimizes the overhead 
>as well, etc.
>
>So, Teledisk has made my day :-).
>
>cjl
>
>From barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Wed Aug  5 10:12:06 1992
>From: barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 4 Aug 92 12:13:30 GMT
>Organization: MicroMuse
>In-reply-to: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu's message of 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT
>
>Charles,
>
>You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from
>newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory.
>
>Barry
>
>From lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu Wed Aug  5 10:12:14 1992
>From: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 4 Aug 92 18:41:23 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <BARRY.92Aug4081330 at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> 
>arry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes:
>
>>Charles,
>
>>You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from
>>newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory.
>
>>Barry
>
>Got it.  It looks nice.  It produces what appears to be a nice RT-11-like
>environment on a PC for file transfers, etc., but is inferior to Teledisk
>for the purpose of making a compacted image of an entire disk as a DOS
>file.  Since this is a frill, it can be completely overlooked :-).
>
>And yes, it does Format DD-type media to stock RX50 as advertised.  I will
>only take you to task on the minor point: it doesn't require RX50DRVR at all.
>There was a little confusion as to whether they were tied together, which is
>not the case.
>
>This program is written in Turbo Pascal.  It would seem that someone who
>can understand enough TP and the quirky code to call BIOS routines should
>incorporate some of RT11.PAS into FDFORMAT (also a TP-based item) since
>the format routine works fine while FDFORMAT does not for RX50 as discussed
>elsewhere.
>
>Overall a nice program.
>
>cjl
>
>
>
>
>

--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.

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From lars at nocrew.org  Tue Jul 25 15:55:00 2000
From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff)
Date: 25 Jul 2000 07:55:00 +0200
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT)"
References: <200007250300.UAA22851@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <858zuq21qj.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

"Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> > From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.
> 	Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt.

I use the 2.11_rp_unknown (Current Patch Level: 400, Date: January 24,
1998) image without any problems.  Well, I didn't know the root
password, so I had to erase it in single user mode.

> 	Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I 
> 	forget who it was) having "massive corruption".   It turned out that
> 	the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode).  Once
> 	the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems
> 	cleared right up.

That was probably me.

> 	Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu
> 	22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help).

This is the script I use:

set cpu 22b
set cpu 3072K
at rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
at rl0 x.tar
b rp


From lcanet at wanadoo.fr  Tue Jul 25 22:24:39 2000
From: lcanet at wanadoo.fr (Laurent Canet)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:24:39 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting  
References: <200007250014.KAA35364@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <397d8707398e9b99@apicra.wanadoo.fr> (added by apicra.wanadoo.fr)


> > In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
> > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
> > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
> > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
> > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
> > gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
> > after I shut it down in the emulator.
> 
> I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.
> 
I ran the 2.11bsd_on_rl02 without problems on bob supnik's emulator. (you need to issue a mount -a command after booting in order to mount the 4 RL02 disk and the 5 RK packs in correct places)

I also ran the 2.11_rp_unknown on bob supnik's emulator and on p11.
It worked fine except that password files were corrupted (and contained unknown passwords)
So I replaced /etc/passwd*; /etc/master.passwd; /bin/passwd and /etc/mkpasswd (which was no present) with the files of the RL distribution

Now it works very good, on p11 emulator under linux 2.2 with networking support.

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From SHOPPA at enterprise.trailing-edge.com  Tue Jul 25 22:02:19 2000
From: SHOPPA at enterprise.trailing-edge.com (SHOPPA at enterprise.trailing-edge.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 8:02:19 -0400
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
Message-ID: <000725080219.224004d6@enterprise.trailing-edge.com>

>> 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off?

>	A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system.  V7 will
>	fit I think.

But does V7 have a MSCP disk driver?  Recommending to someone that all they
have to do is write a driver when they don't even have a running machine yet
is, IMHO, a bit optimistic :-).

Of course, under the Mentec PDP-11 hobbyist program he could install
RT-11 or RSX-11 or MicroRSTS on such a machine quite nicely from a bunch
of RX50 or RX33 floppies he made from the Mentec CD-ROM's.

>> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
>> and/or format RX50 floppies?

>	Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that.

  See ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/putr/

How many RX50's would it take to hold a root filesystem dump?  15 or so?
It's not *quite* as cruel as the RX01 root distribution we discussed over
some Pastrami sandwiches a couple of years back.  But it is approaching the
"Wagner Ring cycle on convenient 45's" stage!

>	On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with
>	some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard
>	5.25" Teac floppy drive.   I don't have the location of the info for
>	that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 
>	newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there).

  See ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt

See, it's these sorts of references we need in the PUPS FAQ list.  The
same questions come up every month, I give the same pointers, then everybody
forgets them again, until I answer the same questions the next month :-).

Tim. (shoppa at trailing-edge.com)

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From wb at vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de  Wed Jul 26 01:43:29 2000
From: wb at vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (Wilhelm B. Kloke)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:43:29 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [pups] Algol 68 for PDP11?
Message-ID: <200007251543.RAA31300@yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de>

Hi,

is a location known where this may be preserved? This should be
an Algol68S (P.Hibbard) compiler from CMU adapted for V7 Unix in Manitoba.
At least, Andy Walker calls the beast 'Manitoba compiler'. See recent
discussion in comp.lang.misc.

Regards, wbk
-- 
Dipl.-Math. Wilhelm Bernhard Kloke
Institut fuer Arbeitsphysiologie an der Universitaet Dortmund
Ardeystrasse 67, D-44139 Dortmund, Tel. 0231-1084-257

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jul 26 08:24:51 2000
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:24:51 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re; Algol 68 for PDP11?
In-Reply-To: <200007251543.RAA31300@yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> from "Wilhelm
 B. Kloke" at "Jul 25, 2000 05:43:29 pm"
Message-ID: <200007252224.IAA40182@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Wilhelm B. Kloke:
> Hi,
> 
> is a location known where this may be preserved? This should be
> an Algol68S (P.Hibbard) compiler from CMU adapted for V7 Unix in Manitoba.
> At least, Andy Walker calls the beast 'Manitoba compiler'. See recent
> discussion in comp.lang.misc.
> 
> Regards, wbk

Is it freely available or requires a license? Regardless, I'd be happy
to put it in to the PDP-11/Applications area in our Unix Archive.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jul 26 09:47:40 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
Message-ID: <200007252347.QAA05298@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: SHOPPA at enterprise.trailing-edge.com
> 
> But does V7 have a MSCP disk driver?  Recommending to someone that all they

	Oops - I messed up there didn't I?  Concentrated so much on the size
	of the disk I forgot about the MSCPness of the device :(

	Ummm, as a matter of fact no it doesn't.  Depending what version 
	of V7 you have it may or may not even have an RL driver.

> How many RX50's would it take to hold a root filesystem dump?  15 or so?

	Oh perhaps 8 or 9.  Using RX33 disks it only took 4 floppies but 
	the RX50 is what, 400kb (about 1/3 that of the RX33).

	It's more like just Siegfried on 45's rather than the entire Ring ;)

>   See ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt

	Is ftp.spc.edu still up and running?  I know spc11c.spc.edu is out of
	action and I'm not sure home much longer the systems at SPC.EDU will
	keep running now that Terry's no longer there.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Thu Jul 27 23:48:45 2000
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:48:45 -0400
Subject: [pups] V7 vs RX50 (was Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running)
Message-ID: <200007271351.XAA90686@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

400KB floppies, or even 1.4MB ones, may seem tiny now; but they should
hardly be undersized for a bare-bones V7 root file system.  Remember
that disks weren't all that big in the late 1970s, and that one of the
important fixes in V7 was that it became possible to make a file system
bigger than 32MB.

The V7 version of the `Setting Up UNIX' paper doesn't say just how big
the root file system dump is, but the instructions say the file system
itself should have 5000 blocks: about 2.4MB.  If the dump was that big,
it would have taken just over 6 RX50 diskettes.  (But it probably wasn't
that big, because there must have been a good bit of free space in the
standard root--/tmp was there too!)

I once ran a stripped-down V7 off a single RK05 (2.5MB including swap)
for several days, during an air-conditioning crisis.  The system wasn't
fully-functional, but there was enough there to let the secretarial staff
keep up with their typing, and even run troff.

The real trouble with the RX50 is not so much the size as the speed:
the damn things are painfully slow.  I sometimes boot my V10 MicroVAXes
from RX50, as part of an experimental Jumpstart-like installation scheme.
The bare-bones installation environment requires only two floppies; the
real nuisance is that it takes several minutes to read them.

And, of course, V7 doesn't have an MSCP driver, since MSCP didn't hit the
streets until 1982 or so.

Norman Wilson


From jp at spektr.eu.org  Sun Jul 30 11:54:32 2000
From: jp at spektr.eu.org (Jorgen Pehrson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 03:54:32 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [pups] Overlays?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0007300336450.13497-100000@spektr.eu.org>

Hi,
I've just installed 2.11BSD on one of my PDPs, from a TK50 tape I just
re-discovered in the trunk of my car. And now I'm in the process of
applying patches. When I installed patch 412 and started to rebuild the
kernel, ld complains with a "ld: too big for type 431". 
Does this means that I have to rearrange stuff between the BASE and the
various OV entries?

How can I find out which overlay is too big? I've tried to do a:
138% root--> size unix.o
text    data    bss     dec     hex
52352   6928    37622   96902   17a86   total text: 115520
        overlays: 7680,7232,7808,7744,4864,8576,4736,6848,7680

How big is too big? And also if none of the overlays above are too big, I
guess it must be the BASE that is too big? 

Is there some sort of documentation anywhere that describe this voodoo
stuff and black magic a bit? 

Btw, I've put my makefile is at http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/Makefile.LOKE. 
Any suggestions on what .o file I should move to what overlay?

Thanks!

-- 
Jörgen Pehrson  jp at spektr.eu.org  http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/
-----------------------------------------------------------
"i must say the linux community is a lot nicer than the unix
community. a negative comment on unix would warrent death
threats. with linux, it is like stirring up a nest of butterflies."
             -- Ken Thompson. 1999

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From rblair at webteksdesign.com  Sat Jul 29 07:12:05 2000
From: rblair at webteksdesign.com (Ryan Blair)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:12:05 -0400
Subject: [pups] makesimtape.c
Message-ID: <000b01bff8d8$831b6be0$b40f0923@rbp200>

While reading back through the mailing list messages, trying to find out why
my tape images never seem to work, I came across a program that I cannot
seem to find. It was mentioned lately as "makesimtape.c" but I cannot find
it anywhere in the archives. Anybody have a lead on this?

Thanks,
Ryan Blair
rblair at webteksdesign.com


From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Sat Jul  1 21:00:37 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 7:00:37 -0400
Subject: [pups] 11/23 and other qbus machines
Message-ID: <000701070037.262009c5@trailing-edge.com>

>I'm maybe going to acquire an 11/23.  It looks like this is kind of
>small for running v7 and/or 2.11 as it has no split I/D (it does have
>an MMU in it but only an 18-bit one I think).

Yeah, perhaps the best choice here would be the set of RL02's I found with
a V6 system on RL02 packs.  Hook up a RLV11 or a RLV12, a couple of
RL02 drives, and you're in business.

>How similar is the physical hardware (card cage I mean really) of this
>to things like 11/73,11/83?  I'm wondering if I might one day be able
>to acquire a card-set from something bigger and install it in the same
>rack, my logic being that cards are a lot easier to get from far away
>than racks, and this machine is only a few miles away.

It's very similar, but it's also rather likely that the card cage that your
11/23 comes in will only support 18-bit bus addresses.  If you want
to run 2.11BSD that's not really enough memory.  For some
details about what Q-bus hardware supports 18-bit stuff and what 
Q-bus hardware supports 22-bit stuff, please look at your Micronotes,
specifically #5, _Q22 Compatible Options_.  If you aren't lucky enough
to own a set, you can browse them at

http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/micronotes/

In large part, it's impossible to specify a PDP-11 as a "PDP-11/23" and
know with any certainty what any single part of it is.  There's much
more to a system than the CPU (and note there are several very different
CPU boards sold as 11/23's), you also have to consider backplane, memory,
and disk/tape storage.  It'd be nice if Warren linked to some not-on-
Minnie resources for these subjects important to many PUPS members (hint hint,
nudge nudge!)

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Jul  1 21:11:44 2000
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 21:11:44 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: PDP-11 ptrs on minnie
In-Reply-To: <000701070037.262009c5@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Jul 1, 2000  7: 0:37 am"
Message-ID: <200007011111.VAA61141@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Tim Shoppa:
> It'd be nice if Warren linked to some not-on-
> Minnie resources for these subjects important to many PUPS members (hint hint,
> nudge nudge!)

Send me the URLs & tell me where on http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/PUPS
you'd like to see them :-)

	Warren


From ssfr at unm.edu  Sun Jul  2 12:24:57 2000
From: ssfr at unm.edu (W . Suika Roberts)
Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2000 20:24:57 -0600
Subject: [pups] Pre-startup questions
Message-ID: <20000701202457.A23817@miyuki.genom.co.jp>

I just (yesterday) aquired a microPDP 11/73 -- it had been used by my
school to operate some sort of geological test equipment that is no
longer present, and was working when it went out of service, who knows
how long ago.

She has a pair of RX02s, an RD52a inside her case, and that's all I've
determined so far, since I haven't opened her up, really, yet.

I'm interested in documentation on monitor commands, what the boot
sequence should look like, and other such software stuff right now.

I'm also wondering about useful things like: `Is the part number in a
standard location on each card', `What is the form factor difference
between Q-bus and Unibus', `Will starting her up trip the breaker', and
`How much space is there in that little rackmount'

In the near future, I'd like to find ethernet and SCSI adaptors for her,
and so am wondering where parts might be aquired.

Thanks,
	Suika (very happy) 
-- 
				 ssfr at unm.edu
The computer is not mightier than a cup of coffee, or other liquid, or a young
school age child with a tool box...                          --L. E. Waltz
	  <a href="http://www.unm.edu/~ssfr/">Suika no homepage</a>


From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sun Jul  2 18:25:08 2000
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 09:25:08 +0100
Subject: [pups] Pre-startup questions
In-Reply-To: <20000701202457.A23817@miyuki.genom.co.jp>
References: <20000701202457.A23817@miyuki.genom.co.jp>
Message-ID: <I46DuKAkxvX5Ew3e@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <20000701202457.A23817 at miyuki.genom.co.jp>, W . Suika Roberts
<ssfr at unm.edu> writes
>I just (yesterday) aquired a microPDP 11/73 -- it had been used by my
>school to operate some sort of geological test equipment that is no
>longer present, and was working when it went out of service, who knows
>how long ago.
>
So long as it was working when it was last connected it will probably
work when you switch it on.  these things are fairly reliable.  Once you
have worked out how to boot it you will probably need to get in and
disable the start-up sequence that probably loads the software to run
the test equipment that it was connected to.  Then you can look round
and see what you have got in the way of an operating system.

>She has a pair of RX02s, an RD52a inside her case, and that's all I've
>determined so far, since I haven't opened her up, really, yet.
>
Ok, an RD52 isn't very big, you will need to look at increasing that if
you want useful disk space.  The best disc will be an RD54 if the disc
controller supports it.  Failing that there are articles in the archive
(I think) about using non DEC discs with their controllers.

When you get round to adding operating systems and the like, a simple
tape controller and drive would be an advantage.  Anything like a TK50
or TS11 set up would help.

>I'm interested in documentation on monitor commands, what the boot
>sequence should look like, and other such software stuff right now.
>

Ok, some one can probably copy the docs for you.  For a start, when you
switch it on the monitor will show a boot sequence as it counts through
a set of numbers.  These are the internal tests.  during this list press
control C and a prompt should come up, then press H followed by return,
that should give you enough pointers to go through the on board help, a
little skimpy but its a start.

With luck you should be able to interrupt the boot sequence of the
operating system to prevent it going over to the final application.
This way you can have a see around inside and find out what OS you have
and start playing.

>I'm also wondering about useful things like: `Is the part number in a
>standard location on each card', `What is the form factor difference
>between Q-bus and Unibus', `Will starting her up trip the breaker', and
>`How much space is there in that little rackmount'
>

The part number is usually engraved on the handle of the card.  This
will be something like M7555.  There is a list in the archive that
should allow you to relate between these numbers and the card
description.

Q BUS and UNIBUS cards have, in the quad versions, similar form factors,
however they are NOT interchangeable as the bus specs are totally
different.

You should be able to put a singe BA23 box 11/73 into a domestic power
outlet without burning the house down.


You will probably find the bus has 3 or 4 spare slots.  This is based on
a processor card, say 2 memory cards, an MSCP (disc) controller and some
serial ports.  What ever the system was that it was connected to may
also have an interface card.

>In the near future, I'd like to find ethernet and SCSI adaptors for her,
>and so am wondering where parts might be aquired.
>
Both parts are available, ethernet is easy and comparatively cheap.
SCSI is easy and expensive.  You can get SCSI controllers for tape, disc
and both but be surprised at the price. There are many places that sell
boards for these beasts, some one in your area could give you much
better advice than me.

>Thanks,
>       Suika (very happy) 


So I should think :-)

Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome


From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Tue Jul 11 02:32:33 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:32:33 -0400
Subject: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software?
Message-ID: <000710123233.202002e2@trailing-edge.com>

In a big batch of 9-tracks and RL01 packs rescued this morning, I have
two tapes, one labeled

          AT&T
       ** 66938 **

 UNIX OPERATING SYSTEM FOR
 WRITERS WORKBENCH SOFTWARE

 TPname: LOAD PGM FOR PDP 11/70

the other labeled

          AT&T
       ** 66611 **
  UNIX OPERATING SYSTEM
  WRITERS WORKBENCH SOFTWARE

  TPname: LOAD PGM FOR VAX 11/780 11/750

Both have copyright dates of 1984.  You can see scans of the original
labels (high-res scans, they're big files!) at

  http://www.trailing-edge.com/www/wwtapes/

I won't be able to make binary copies of these until this evening, but does
anyone know where these tapes fit into the scheme of AT&T stuff?  i.e.
are these custom-built SYS III and SYS V systems?  Is the PDP-11/70 tape
perhaps eligible for inclusion in the PUPS archive under the SCO license?

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From cjd at sunmexico.sun.com  Tue Jul 11 08:54:53 2000
From: cjd at sunmexico.sun.com (Cuenta para lectura de e-mail)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 17:54:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software?
Message-ID: <200007102255.RAA16145@sunmex.sunmexico.Sun.COM>

I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench,
which was a special version of V6.  I think WWB was where "pic" first showed
up.  PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added.  WWB may be the same.

	- Chris

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Tue Jul 11 09:51:19 2000
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 19:51:19 -0400
Subject: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Software?
Message-ID: <000710195119.202002e2@trailing-edge.com>

>I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's Workbench,
>which was a special version of V6.  I think WWB was where "pic" first showed
>up.  PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added.  WWB may be the same.

I don't think what I've found here is that major.  It starts
with a Makefile:

# NOTICE-NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE BELL SYS EXCEPT UNDER WRITTEN AGRMT
#             Makefile: Writer's Workbench system version 2.0.1.10, 5/26/83
#               makefile for the WRITER'S WORKBENCH SYSTEM
#       This package includes over 30 programs that suggest improvements
#       to written documents, including improved versions of the
#       Style  and Diction programs as well as many more writing aids.

and the README says:

       This file gives instructions for building and installing the Writer's
       Workbench system source  code.  This information is also contained
       in the document "UNIX(TM) Writer's Workbench Software Installation
       and Administration Guide."

These particular tapes have been stored in absolutely horrible conditions
(pretty much kept in an outdoors storage shed during both winter and summer for
the past decade) and I'm going to have to bake and/or lubricate them before I
make a not-half-assed attempt at recovering them.  The PDP11/70 tape is
particularly bad (it actually broke when I was just loading it into
the drive!) and it may be a goner.

I don't see any obvious mentions of 'pic' in what I read so far.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From grant.maizels at cogita.com.au  Tue Jul 11 10:21:30 2000
From: grant.maizels at cogita.com.au (Grant Maizels)
Date: Tue, 11 Jul 2000 10:21:30 +1000
Subject: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Softw
	are?
Message-ID: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583@sydnt4.cogita.local>

Tim,

Writers Work Bench was an extension to the basic troff/nroff tools developed
earlier, but took new directions. It included a whole lot of new programs
like diction (a grammar checker??) which were more to do with the content
than the formatting. I think that pic was developed separately by bwk for a
research version. I have never used WWB but I have some documentation on it
somewhere at home. I believe that it was sold with source as an add on for
various Unicies.

Grant Maizels
grant at maizels.nu

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Shoppa [mailto:SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com]
Sent: Tuesday, 11 July 2000 9:51
To: PUPS at MINNIE.CS.ADFA.OZ.AU
Subject: Re: [pups] AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench
Software?


>I believe WWB was an offshoot or derivative of PWB, the Programmer's
Workbench,
>which was a special version of V6.  I think WWB was where "pic" first
showed
>up.  PWB was, I think V6 with a few extra utilities added.  WWB may be the
same.

I don't think what I've found here is that major.  It starts
with a Makefile:

# NOTICE-NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE BELL SYS EXCEPT UNDER WRITTEN AGRMT
#             Makefile: Writer's Workbench system version 2.0.1.10, 5/26/83
#               makefile for the WRITER'S WORKBENCH SYSTEM
#       This package includes over 30 programs that suggest improvements
#       to written documents, including improved versions of the
#       Style  and Diction programs as well as many more writing aids.

and the README says:

       This file gives instructions for building and installing the Writer's
       Workbench system source  code.  This information is also contained
       in the document "UNIX(TM) Writer's Workbench Software Installation
       and Administration Guide."

These particular tapes have been stored in absolutely horrible conditions
(pretty much kept in an outdoors storage shed during both winter and summer
for
the past decade) and I'm going to have to bake and/or lubricate them before
I
make a not-half-assed attempt at recovering them.  The PDP11/70 tape is
particularly bad (it actually broke when I was just loading it into
the drive!) and it may be a goner.

I don't see any obvious mentions of 'pic' in what I read so far.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From schoedel at kw.igs.net  Tue Jul 11 12:12:45 2000
From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel)
Date: Mon, 10 Jul 2000 22:12:45 -0400
Subject: [pups] RE: AT&T Unix Operating System for Writers Workbench Softw 	are?
In-Reply-To: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583@sydnt4.cogita.local>
References: <6334A5F54DFE5F4FA3032AF1BE95A0F30F7583@sydnt4.cogita.local>
Message-ID: <v04210100b5902e0219c2@[216.58.99.172]>

On 2000/07/11 at 10:21am +1000, Grant Maizels
<grant.maizels at cogita.com.au> wrote:
>Writers Work Bench was an extension to the basic troff/nroff tools developed
>earlier, but took new directions. It included a whole lot of new programs
>like diction (a grammar checker??) which were more to do with the content
>than the formatting. I think that pic was developed separately by bwk for a
>research version. I have never used WWB but I have some documentation on it
>somewhere at home. I believe that it was sold with source as an add on for
>various Unicies.

I have a little documentation here, mostly three papers from BSTJ vol. 62
no. 6, July/August 1983. It did contain -- as the makefile says --
'diction' (basically a search for 'bad' phrases), 'style' (which
generated readabilty and other statistics for text), 'punct' (a basic
punctuation checker), and a handful of other similar programs.

Importantly for the PUPS archive, I'm pretty certain that AT&T retained
ownership of WWB when it sold UNIX, so it wouldn't be covered by the SCO
license. I have no idea who owns it now.

'pic', along with troff and such, was in *Documenter's* Workbench.

-- 
Kevin Schoedel
schoedel at kw.igs.net


From vandys at zendo.com  Mon Jul 24 00:05:19 2000
From: vandys at zendo.com (Andy Valencia)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:05:19 -0700
Subject: [pups] Eh...
Message-ID: <200007231405.HAA00405@vandys-pc.zendo.com>

I should mention that "at rl0 ..." also doesn't work:

sim> at rl0 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145
sim> b rl0
@/
@/

HALT instruction, PC: 000002 (HALT)
sim>

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From vandys at zendo.com  Mon Jul 24 00:03:02 2000
From: vandys at zendo.com (Andy Valencia)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:03:02 -0700
Subject: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting
Message-ID: <200007231403.HAA00392@vandys-pc.zendo.com>

I'm trying to boot the image v7_rl02_1145 from sim_2.3d, and get:

PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
sim> at rl02 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145
sim> b rl02
@

I can type things to the '@' prompt, but it never does anything unless I
type '/', at which point it bombs back to the emulator.  My scan of the
documentation for bootstraps doesn't point out any state with an '@'
prompt... help?

I can't tell you how many years it's been since I've had access to an '11
running V7.  Looking forward to it!

Thanks,
Andy Valencia

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Mon Jul 24 08:22:52 2000
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:22:52 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting
In-Reply-To: <200007231403.HAA00392@vandys-pc.zendo.com> from Andy Valencia at
 "Jul 23, 2000 07:03:02 am"
Message-ID: <200007232222.IAA28671@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Andy Valencia:
> I'm trying to boot the image v7_rl02_1145 from sim_2.3d, and get:
> 
> PDP-11 simulator V2.3d
> sim> at rl02 /users/vandys/tmp/v7/v7_rl02_1145
> sim> b rl02
> @
> 
> I can type things to the '@' prompt, but it never does anything...
> Andy Valencia

At the bottom of simh_doc.txt in the Supnik emulator sources, it says:

UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image.  To boot UNIX:

        sim> set cpu 18b
        sim> set rl0 RL02
        sim> att rl0 unix_v7_rl.dsk
        sim> boot rl0
        @boot
        New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt
        : rl(0,0)rl2unix
        # 

A smaller image is contained on a single RK05 disk image.  To boot UNIX:

        sim> set cpu 18b
        sim> att rk0 unix_v7_rk.dsk
        sim> boot rk0
        @boot
        New Boot, known devices are hp ht rk rl rp tm vt
        : rk(0,0)rkunix
        # STTY -LCASE
        #

Hope this helps!

Cheers,
	Warren


From vandys at zendo.com  Mon Jul 24 16:56:56 2000
From: vandys at zendo.com (Andy Valencia)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 06:56:56 +0000
Subject: [pups] UNIX V7 11/45 image booting
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:22:52 +1000."
             <200007232222.IAA28671@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> 
Message-ID: <200007240656.e6O6uu726697@zendo.com>

[Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au> writes:]

>UNIX V7 is contained on a single RL02 disk image.  To boot UNIX:
>...
>Hope this helps!

Thanks!  (Don't know how I missed this. :-<)

Yes, it helped, and I'm now the proud owner of a (virtual) single-user V7 box.

Time to hack!

Andy Valencia

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From rblair at webteksdesign.com  Tue Jul 25 10:08:16 2000
From: rblair at webteksdesign.com (Ryan Blair)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:08:16 -0400
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
Message-ID: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200>

In the same rut as Andy Valencia:

I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
after I shut it down in the emulator.

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Jul 25 10:14:09 2000
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:14:09 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
In-Reply-To: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> from Ryan Blair at "Jul
 24, 2000 08:08:16 pm"
Message-ID: <200007250014.KAA35364@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Ryan Blair:
[Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
> I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
> directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
> with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
> filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
> gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
> after I shut it down in the emulator.

I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.

I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone)
to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the
Supnik and Ersatz emulators.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Tue Jul 25 10:22:40 2000
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 09:52:40 +0930
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
In-Reply-To: <200007250014.KAA35364@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>; from wkt@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au on Tue, Jul 25, 2000 at 10:14:09AM +1000
References: <001901bff5cc$8c02f200$2f0e0923@rbp200> <200007250014.KAA35364@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20000725095240.B98476@wantadilla.lemis.com>

On Tuesday, 25 July 2000 at 10:14:09 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Ryan Blair:
> [Charset iso-8859-1 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
>> In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
>> I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
>> directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
>> with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
>> filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
>> gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
>> after I shut it down in the emulator.
>
> I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.
>
> I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone)
> to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the
> Supnik and Ersatz emulators.

I had some somewhere, but I haven't run them for a while.  They're
also very big.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From jeremy at mail.flyingcroc.net  Tue Jul 25 10:37:47 2000
From: jeremy at mail.flyingcroc.net (Jeremy Bingham)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0007241715580.62180-100000@gilliam.users.flyingcroc.net>

I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a
RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't 
have a tape drive. My questions are:

1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines?

2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off?

3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
and/or format RX50 floppies?

I tried looking through the mail archive, but there didn't seem to be anything
there that addressed this question. Thanks in advance to everybody.

-j

----------------------------------------------------------

You know you've been spending too much time on the computer when your
friend misdates a check, and you suggest adding a "++" to fix it.

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jul 25 13:00:06 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
Message-ID: <200007250300.UAA22851@moe.2bsd.com>

Howdy -

> From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> In article by Ryan Blair:
> > In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
> > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
> > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
> > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
> > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt.
> 
> I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.

	Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt.

	Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I 
	forget who it was) having "massive corruption".   It turned out that
	the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode).  Once
	the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems
	cleared right up.   A good case can be made that it's a bug the system
	doesn't outright crash if it's unhappy with the amount of memory but
	given it's so easy to 'add memory' to the system I can't work up any
	enthusiasm to track down and fix the problem ;)

> I wonder if we could prevail upon Steven Schultz (or someone)
> to build some 2.11BSD disk images which would be suitable for the
> Supnik and Ersatz emulators.

	Well, one could take the tape images that are in the archive and
	run the suitable tape preparation program ('makesimtape' for Supnik's
	simulator and I think makesimtape.c is around in the archive as well).
	Might need a "toggle in" boot for that (it's in the 2.11 setup and
	installation guide) though since I do not recall the Supnik simulator
	knowing how to boot from tape.

	Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu
	22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help).


	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Jul 25 13:18:29 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
Message-ID: <200007250318.UAA23005@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi!

> From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy at mail.flyingcroc.net>
> I just acquired a MicroPDP-11 from a Goodwill a couple of days ago with a

	Wow - that's a source for PDP-11s I would never have thought of :)

> RX50-A dual 400KB floppy and an RD52 31/33(?)MB hard drive, but it doesn't 
> have a tape drive. My questions are:

> 1.) What UNIXes have been successfully loaded onto these types of machines?

	I think we need just one more little piece of information before we
	can match up a version of Unix with your new machine.

	We need to know if it's an 11/23 (23+), or an 11/53 (73).   The 
	label "MicroPDP-11" was used on a number of systems.   If it's a 53
	or better then you can run any of the PDP-11 Unix systems that are
	out there.  If it's a 23 class machine then you're limited to V7
	or earlier (2.9BSD would probably fit but it would be a struggle and
	you definitely wouldn't be able to use the networking).

	Looking at the system maint register with the console ODT would
	probably be the easiest way to determine the cpu type - examine
	location 177750 (or 17777750 depending if the system needs the 
	explicit 22 bit address).  Bits 4 thru 7 tell the module type:
	5 = KDJ-11E (93, 94), 4 = KDJ-11D (53), 3 = KXJ11-C, 2 = KDJ11B
	(quad high 73), 1 = KDJ-11A (dual high board 73).   If it's a 23 the
	sys maint register probably doesn't exist.

	Another way would be to look at the module number on the spine of the
	card ;)

> 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off?

	A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system.  V7 will
	fit I think.

> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
> and/or format RX50 floppies?

	Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that.
	Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow
	(DOS) system around.

	On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with
	some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard
	5.25" Teac floppy drive.   I don't have the location of the info for
	that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 
	newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there).

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From entropy at zippy.bernstein.com  Tue Jul 25 14:16:09 2000
From: entropy at zippy.bernstein.com (maximum entropy)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 00:16:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
In-Reply-To: <200007250318.UAA23005@moe.2bsd.com> (sms@moe.2bsd.com)
References: <200007250318.UAA23005@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <200007250416.e6P4G9T17046@zippy.bernstein.com>

>Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:18:29 -0700 (PDT)
>From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
>
>> From: Jeremy Bingham <jeremy at mail.flyingcroc.net>
>> [...]
>> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
>> and/or format RX50 floppies?
>
>	Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that.
>	Normally you need to buy preformatted RX50 disks or have a DEC Rainbow
>	(DOS) system around.
>
>	On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with
>	some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard
>	5.25" Teac floppy drive.   I don't have the location of the info for
>	that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 
>	newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there).

http://vaxarchive.org/hw/rx50.html
...contains a good FAQ with some useful links, including a link to
John Wilson's stuff at DBIT.

I'm also appending here a file with some informative messages on the
subject.  I had this file stored away with a bunch of Venix images for
the Pro.  I don't remember if this file (RX50.notes) came with the
Venix stuff, or if I collected them together myself.  I'm pretty sure
it's the former, but I couldn't find any links to it by searching the
net.  Anyway, here it is...

>From barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Tue Aug  4 08:14:38 1992
>From: barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 2 Aug 92 11:53:41 GMT
>Organization: MicroMuse
>In-reply-to: keithr at garfield.cs.mun.ca's message of 1 Aug 92 01:10:53 GMT
>
>I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50
>diskettes.  What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which
>spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive.  
>
>RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on 
>the disks.  If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure,
>which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS
>directory structure.
>
>To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11
>which groks the RT11 file structure.  I have not yet found a similar
>utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series.
>
>I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette
>in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector,
>not by logical file.
>
>I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former
>Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for
>manipulating RX50 diskettes.
>
>Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can
>low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then
>put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization.
>This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted
>or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes.
>
>Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one 
>drive to a blank diskette in another drive.  (This kind of copy will fail
>if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt
>to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.)
>
>Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the
>COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA
>card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging
>>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators,
>Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by
>DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities.
>
>None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom
>line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes
>and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines.
>
>Barry Kort
>
>From cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug  4 08:14:48 1992
>From: cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 2 Aug 92 19:45:22 GMT
>Organization: University of Houston
>X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
>
>barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes:
>: 
>: Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can
>: low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then
>: put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization.
>: This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted
>: or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes.
>: 
>: Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one 
>: drive to a blank diskette in another drive.  (This kind of copy will fail
>: if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt
>: to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.)
>
> 
>Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to
>use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC.  Not only
>does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also
>store a disk into a file (on the PC).  This way, it is possible to keep an
>image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies
>easily.
> 
>In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class
>drives seem to work out best.
> 
>-andy
>
>From lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug  4 08:14:56 1992
>From: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 06:39:56 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <1992Aug2.194522.18244 at menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes:
>> 
>>Another method of obtaining a formatted disk for the Pro-3xx, is to
>>use an image copy program called Teledisk (shareware) for the PC.  Not only
>>does this program allow you to do a disk-to-disk copy, but it can also
>>store a disk into a file (on the PC).  This way, it is possible to keep an
>>image file of a blank P/OS formatted disk, and then crank out new copies
>>easily.
>
>Where can I obtain Teledisk?  Does it require any low-level preformatting
>of the media on the target?
>
>IF you use DR-DOS and RAINDOS (but not RX50DRVR) you can use DISKCOPY and
>DISKCOMP to copy RX50 MS-DOS diskettes to each other, or to files on the
>hard disk:
>
>DISKCOPY E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG
>
>DISKCOPY E: E:
>
>DISKCOPY C:\RX50DISK.IMG E:
>
>DISKCOMP E: C:\RX50DISK.IMG
>
>When writing the file or disk image onto a target disk, the diskette has to
>be already formatted as a low-level RX50, yet there are no high-level
>considerations, so non-DOS RX50's can be directly used as targets!
>
>Of course input diskettes have to already be MS-DOS RX50 DECmate II/Rainbow
>diskettes because of DOS restrictions.
>
>Note that DOS 5 cannot do anything but "standard" disk sizes, and can't
>copy disk images to files at all.
>
>> 
>>In my experience, low density disks (360k) on a high density (1.2m) AT class
>>drives seem to work out best.
>
>And without hub rings is better.  If you suspect that a disk is actually
>high-density when it has no hub rings, there is a simple test:
>
>Just format it as a normal 1.2 Meg disk.  a low-density diskette will get
>hundreds of Kbytes in bad sectors, while a HD diskette will get little or
>no errors, thus proving it unsuitable for RX50 purposes.  Most disks with
>hub rings are already clearly low-density, but after you remove them, this
>will prove a quick check for actual diskette formulation.
>
>cjl
>
>From cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug  4 08:15:02 1992
>From: cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 16:42:35 GMT
>Organization: University of Houston
>X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
>
>lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>: 
>: Where can I obtain Teledisk?  Does it require any low-level preformatting
>: of the media on the target?
>: 
>I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory 
>"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip".
>
>Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting.  It's possible
>to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go.  Incidently, teledisk is
>made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk.
>
>-andy
>
>From cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu Tue Aug  4 08:15:11 1992
>From: cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 16:54:30 GMT
>Organization: University of Houston
>X-Newsreader: Tin 1.1 PL4
>
>: I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory 
>: "mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip".
>
>Correction, it's spelled "wuarchive.wustl.edu" with a missing 'e'.
> 
>Host nic.switch.ch   (130.59.1.40)
>    Location: /mirror/msdos/dskutl
>      FILE      rw-rw-r--     93805  Dec 23  1990   teled212.zip
> 
>Host ftp.uu.net   (137.39.1.9)
>    Location: /systems/msdos/simtel20/dskutl
>      FILE      rw-r--r--     93805  Dec 22  1990   teled212.zip
> 
>Host wuarchive.wustl.edu   (128.252.135.4)
>    Location: /mirrors3/garbo.uwasa.fi/diskutil
>      FILE      rw-rw-r--     94075  Dec 11  1990   teled212.zip
>    Location: /mirrors/msdos/dskutl
>      FILE      rw-r--r--     93805  Dec 23  1990   teled212.zip
> 
>archie>
>
>From lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug  4 08:15:17 1992
>From: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 4 Aug 92 05:55:11 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <1992Aug3.164235.1187 at menudo.uh.edu> cosc16to at menudo.uh.edu (Andy Hakim) writes:
>>lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner) writes:
>>: 
>>: Where can I obtain Teledisk?  Does it require any low-level preformatting
>>: of the media on the target?
>>: 
>>I checked the ftp site "wuarchive.wustle.edu", it is in directory 
>>"mirrors2/msdos/dskutl" as file "teled212.zip".
>>
>>Nope, this one does not require any low level preformatting.  It's possible
>>to stick in a brand new ds/dd and let it go.  Incidently, teledisk is
>>made by the same people, Sydex, who make 22disk.
>>
>>-andy
>
>Sydex also makes RAINDOS.
>
>I suspect that teledisk will only make sector-compatible descendents though,
>so if I have a specially layed-out version of a diskette (such as 2:1
>interleave or staggered, etc.) the descendent will lose that aspect of
>optimization, and will instead become "vanilla" RX50 format in the
>case of RX50 diskette.
>
>The point is that certain software, especially for DECmates not specifically
>geared to CP/M-80, and *any* bootable DECmate diskette (including CP/M-80) the
>format used in stock RX50 layout is non-optimal.  There are different 
>requirements for different specific applications, but just as on PC's, the
>use of non-interleaved non-staggered disks can be demonstrated to be
>inferior to a variant in terms of sector ordering at the low format level.
>
>Rainbow MS-DOS disks have an implied software interleave of 2:1 for the
>FAT area, and 1:1 in the rest; this is in software, so the standard disk
>layout should be maintained, except that the *stagger* is not taken into
>account.  Thus, like a PC, Rainbow MS-DOS disks should be formatted with a
>stagger of 2 per track.  Thus track 1 is layed out 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10 and
>track 2 is layed out 9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8.  When the disk seeks from track 1
>to track 2, it will thus miss 9 and 10, but immediately find 1.  Were the
>stagger not there, it would miss 1 and 2, and reject 3,4,5,6,7,8,9 while
>waiting for 1 to come around again.  Thus staggering relieves rotational
>latency.
>
>For the DECmate, there are two additional problems:
>
>All bootable diskettes require the logically sequential reading of tracks
>78, 79 in the order 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10.  But the RX
>interface of the DECmate can't perform 1:1 interleave ever, so this is
>anti-optimal not only in stagger but more importantly in interleave.  Thus, 
>this area of the disk should be formatted with an interleave of 2:1 as well
>as a stagger of 2.  Thus the disk is layed out:
>
>track 78: 1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9,5,10
>track 79: 5,10,1,6,2,7,3,8,4,9
>
>This restriction is based on the ROM routines that read in this area in linear
>order.  This is mostly why all DECmates take so long to boot up!  Changing to
>a better sector order will chop seconds out of the boot time.
>
>Further, all systems other than CP/M-80 require some form of help, mostly
>applying the stagger that helps the Rainbow as well (again other than CP/M).
>For DECmate MS-DOS, tracks 0-3 should be in 1-1 interleave because the software
>already maps the disk in 2:1 usage.  tracks 4-79 should be formatted 2:1
>interleave to help out the RX interface when the Rainbow-optimal ordering
>is invoked (similar to the DECmate ROM access, and just as inefficient on
>a DECmate).
>
>OS/278 does a software 2:1 interleave, so the only help needed is a
>disk-wide stagger factor of 2.
>
>Note that RT-11 and all other -11-oriented disks should use stock format only
>because this superior software maps all sectors to include both the 2-1
>interleave and stagger of 2 already.
>
>So, if Teledisk is a *really* good utility, it won't disturb the format's
>stagger and interleave as it copies the disks!
>
>cjl
>
>From lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug  4 08:15:23 1992
>From: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <BARRY.92Aug2075341 at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes:
>>I use the RX50DRVR on my AT which allows my 1.2 MB drive to read RX50
>>diskettes.  What this does is to create a new driveletter (F:) which
>>spins the HD drive as if it were an RX50 drive.  
>
>RX50DRVR, like RAINDOS, creates a new logical drive past your last existent
>drive, so it's F: for you because you apparently have an A: through E: before
>the driver gets loaded in CONFIG.SYS.
>
>>
>>RX50DRVR does not know anything about the directory structure on 
>>the disks.  If I do 'dir F:' it assumes DOS directory structure,
>>which works fine on Rainbow diskettes, since they use the DOS
>>directory structure.
>
>That's not quite true, since the disk organization has to be DOS as implemented
>on DECmate II MSDOS/Rainbow MS-DOS only.  It is true only in the sense that
>you can make your own BIOS calls to read the disks yourself without caring
>about the significence.  But that's no different from doing so with any
>floppy on a PC.
>
>>
>>To read RT11 formatted diskettes, there is a utility called RT11
>>which groks the RT11 file structure.  I have not yet found a similar
>>utility which handles the RMS-11 file structure of the PRO 3xx series.
>
>Where can I get this RT11 utility?  It sounds useful.  Does it specifically
>require/recognize the RX50DRVR or does it merely work in an innocuous way
>with the same drive letter?  (Would it work also with A:? or must it have
>RX50DRVR present.  If so, would it work with RAINDOS as an alternative?)
>
>>
>>I can use Norton Utilities with RX50DRVR to examine the RX50 diskette
>>in the F: drive, but then I am accessing the diskette sector by sector,
>>not by logical file.
>>
>>I haven't explored the new utilities from the gentlemen in the Former
>>Soviet Union who have announced some DOS environment tools for
>>manipulating RX50 diskettes.
>
>Re the Soviet-originating files:
>
>The files come with a piece of shareware originating in Italy that intercepts
>DOS's calls for formatting commands, so that "odd" sizes, such as using:
>FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 are now legal.  The result is a double-sided disk that
>is quite suitably low-level formatted for RX50, but the high-level is PC
>compatible, *not* DECmate/Rainbow's idea of MS-DOS, and specifically must be
>used on a "normal" drive and *not* with RX50DRVR.  All media indicators are
>stock PC-type, not RX50.  However, since the low-level is now correct, and
>errors are recorded in a way that FORMAT indicated when it finished, and can
>be re-confirmed with CHKDSK, etc., the media can be determined to be error-
>free hopefully.  If so, then the companion program RX50INIT that comes with
>RX50DRVR can be used to initialize the directory so DECmate/Rainbow MS-DOS
>likes the disk, and of course the RX50DRVR-controlled logical device such as
>F: in your example.  Note also that RX50INIT can be used with RAINDOS as well.
>Also, RX50INIT requires ANSI.SYS be loaded purely for cosmetic reasons.
>RX50DRVR and RX50INIT were designed for DOS 3.3 usage.  They don't support the
>extensions to DOS brought into versions 4 and 5, so there are some problems.
>RX50INIT fails totally in those two systems, and CHKDSK can't work there
>either.  With some adjustment to the BUFFERS= statement in CONFIG.SYS, they
>can be made to work for read/write purposes under DOS 4 or 5.  
>
>
>When used with DR-DOS 6.0, all RX50DRVR and RX50INIT functions work fine.
>
>
>>
>>Using RX50DRVR in combination with the RT11 utility program, I can
>>low-level format a blank HD diskette as an RX50 diskette, then
>>put it in the PRO and do a high-level RMS-11 style Initialization.
>>This allows me to create new RX50 diskettes out of plain old unformatted
>>or recycled 1.2 MB HD diskettes.
>
>Just a word about using HD media:
>
>You can't reliably use HD media on an actual RX50, because the coercivity
>is too far off in HD media.  It was designed for the higher-frequency
>recording of the "real" 1.2 Meg format (500 KHz) and not the 250 KHz recording
>rate of the RX50, which is actually the same as good 'ol DS/DD media (360K
>kid of media).  Some revisions of RX50 drive in comination with certain RX
>controllers in some DEC machins fare better than others, but it can be
>demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD
>media.
>
>The designated media for RX50 is Maxell MD1DD-RX50 or equivalent, which is
>what used to be called "quad" media.  This is well-honed low-density media,
>so it is rated for use on 96 TPI (80 track) drives, not just 48 TPI (40 track)
>drives as is usual.  Note that MD2D is not MD2DD.  (The 2 just means two-sided
>which for all intents and purposes today can be ignored; virtuall *all* media
>is actually made double-sided :-).)  The DD means 80-track support, but since
>most media are made well-honed, most cheap disks can support 80 tracks anyway.
>These disks will *not* cause I/O errors on any RX50!  However, long-term usage
>requires the hub rings be removed completely (use alcohol to get the sticky
>stuff off, or ask your supplier for no-hub disks!).  Failing to remove
>hub rings means eventually the disks will get unreliable sooner than they
>ought to due to registration problems.  All 96 TPI disks have this problem.
>Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings!  It is rumored that there is
>a "premium" line of diskettes from Fuji apart from their standard line of
>inexpensive diskettes that has a specially reinforced hub area, that isn't
>a hub ring per se.  If the same mechanism is used in both HD and DD media, 
>then the DD type would be the best thing today to use with impunity for
>RX50.  Clearly the MD1DD or MD2DD or MD1DD or the 3M equivalents are too
>expensive, considering that what we want are the cheapest types of diskettes
>with the hub rings never added.  (We don't want to pay more for less!)
>
>Re RT-11 utility:
>
>I don't know anything about the RT11 utility program, but RX50DRVR cannot
>format disks; the code lacks support for the FORMAT command, and also some
>calls needed by both CHKDSK and FORMAT.  Attempts to use either on DOS 4
>or 5 will get error messages.  Even on 3.3, where CHKDSK is more "forgiving"
>you still get the message about "format not supported on device" when
>using RX50DRVR.  So, if your claim for formatting is true, the RT11 utility
>must contain low-level formatting code of its own, and perhaps only needs
>RX50DRVR to locate the proper device?
>
>RAINDOS is a share-ware mostly superset of RX50DRVR, and it totally supports
>CHKDSK and FORMAT in DOS 4 and 5.  It works fine with RX50INIT (assuming that
>RX50INIT can work!) and suffers from only two known problems:
>
>1)	Should you specify a format command with the FORMAT F: command,
>and the O/S is DR-DOS 6, then if it really does attempt a low-level format,
>it gets a cryptic error message and fails.  Note that MS-DOS 5 and DR-DOS 6
>will always attempt a "quick" format if possible, unless over-ridden.  This
>case of a quick format doesn't fail, but also isn't formatting!  Just 
>rewriting a cleaned-up high-level format directory initialize.
>
>2)	It is sometimes strangely slow, as compared to RX50DRVR where both
>could work.  When using Norton 4.5's DT program, RX50DRVR handles the
>disk at normal speed, and allows DT to mark bad clusters (if any) quite
>nicely.  When RAINDOS is used, it causes many recalibrates for unknown
>reasons.  In some cases, the sloth isn't that noticeable, but this is a
>sore point usage.
>
>Otherwise, RAINDOS is a total replacement for RX50DRVR, or so it would seem.
>Norton NU treats RX50DRVR diskettes and RAINDOS diskettes equally since it
>does one-sector I/O.
>
>>
>>Using Venix on the PRO, I can do a raw image copy of a diskette in one 
>>drive to a blank diskette in another drive.  (This kind of copy will fail
>>if the target diskette has any bad sectors, since there is no attempt
>>to rearrange sectors to detour around any bad blocks.)
>>
>>Finally, by hooking up the PRO to a Unix or DOS machine via the
>>COM port (or to a Unix host via Ethernet/DECnet if you have a DECNA
>>card), you can transfer files via any number of techniques, ranging
>>from straight ASCII upload/capture using ordinary terminal emulators,
>>Kermit file transfers if you have Kermit on both machines, or by
>>DECnet file transfer using NFT or dcp utilities.
>>
>>None of this is particularly trivial to implement, but the bottom
>>line is that there are many ways to pull files off RX50 diskettes
>>and transfer them to Unix or DOS machines.
>>
>>Barry Kort
>
>If the Soviet files prove to work, and apparently requiring the Italian
>TSR shareware program, we can probably make Files-11 RX50 diskettes as well.
>I have just received these programs and will be evaluating them when feasible.
>I am still working with the accompanying Italian shareware which has some
>interesting "generic" features of its own with respect to the entire RX50
>issue.  I suspect that its presence enhances any of these utilities, although
>it's possible redundant and perhaps extraneous to some of the utilities.
>
>In any case, there are many ways to get files moved around.
>
>Another excellent package is 22DISK from Sydex, the same shareware author
>as RAINDOS.  This package low-level formats RX50's in either DECmate CP/M-80
>or Rainbow CP/M-80/86 format.  (They are similar, but not identical, although
>they can read each other's disks no sweat; it's a matter of interleave, etc.
>and a throughput issue, not a format per se issue.)  It then high-level
>formats the disks for CP/M usage.  So, its a good place to do the low-level
>formatting required for all of these other utilities.  For example, on
>DR-DOS 6, you first run 22DISK to format the disk, then use RX50INIT to get
>an RX50 MS-DOS DECmate/Rainbow high-level structure, and then can use
>RAINDOS to transfer files, run CHKDSK, and do quick-formats with FORMAT /Q,
>etc.  Notice this avoids all of the Raindos/DR-DOS interaction :-).
>
>22DISK can get directory listings of CP/M disks, and can transfer files
>to/from MS-DOS from/to the designated CP/M diskette.  It supports literally
>hundreds of CP/M formats, which implies many low and high-level support
>variants.  This program is highly reminiscent of the former Rainbow, and
>later PC-based "Media Master" program, but is for PC/MS-DOS only, and
>requires HD drives for the RX50 formats.
>
>I believe there is an obscure PRO option for a CP/M-80 board, so this might
>be yet another way to get files in/out of a PRO.
>
>So, like cats, there are many ways to "skin" an RX50 :-).
>
>cjl
>
>From lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu Tue Aug  4 08:15:29 1992
>From: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Good report on Teledisk.
>Date: 4 Aug 92 07:27:25 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>I have down-loaded Sydex's teledisk, and have found it to exceed my
>expectations in some useful ways.
>
>For starters, all of my attentions are based on the problems of distributing
>RX50 diskettes not necessarily in stock format, and not yet having any
>satisfactory way of creating the necessary disks.
>
>Background:
>
>There are several desirable variant formats for RX50 that have been discussed
>elsewhere.  The only known program to create them is FDFORMAT for PC's.  While
>this freeware program is generally quite good, it has a few crucial bugs that
>make it unsuitable for RX50 usage.  It is conceivable that this will be
>solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create
>usable disks, but in any case, the use of all obvious parameters yields disks
>that are flakey on some RX50's, and downright unreadable on others.  In
>addition, these disks are so messed up that a DECmate can't even WRITE on the
>disks and read back what it just wrote reliably!  Yet, this isn't a media
>problem because it can be demonstrated that the problem disappears by
>low-level format of the same diskette with either Sydex's RAINDOS or 22DISK
>packages.  (Note that *some* RX50 systems using some newer-designed controllers
>and/or higher revision drives and/or RX50-compatibility modes on different
>drives have little or no problems with these FDFORMATted diskettes; indeed
>the diskettes are fine on a PC; there's some low-level detail that's incorrect
>about FDFORMATted diskettes.  Some parameter is being set to a PC-acceptable
>value that doesn't center on RX50's requirements.  Perhaps this will be
>uncovered at a later time obviating this entire discussion.  Until such a 
>time, FDFORMAT cannot be used to create RX50 diskettes that are readable on
>*all* RX50 systems.  FDFORMAT also has a few other operational bugs, such as
>incorrect recognition of certain I/O errors, etc., but these are exception
>cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.)
>
>The reason why FDFORMAT is desirable is that it is the only known program
>capable of creating the variant RX50 formats where the format must be
>done with interleave and stagger factors, especially if the disk must have
>"zones" where the format changes.  For example, to create a disk best suited
>for DECmate OS/278 usage, the following *TWO* commands should be given:
>
>FDFORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 /I:2
>FDFORMAT A: /T:78 /N:10 /1 /Y:2
>
>The first command creates a disk with an interleave of 2:1 and a stagger of
>2 throughout.  The second command changes tracks 0-77 to have 1:1 interleave
>and a stagger of 2 throughout.
>
>When OS/278 is copied onto such a diskette, the "slushware" tracks are read
>in much faster than on standard RX50 diskettes, and all access to the rest of
>the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes
>the software's lack of stagger mapping.  But since the software does map the
>sector order into a 2:1 interleave, the hardware order must stay in 1:1
>interleave sequence.
>
>This would be a nice disk to use for the intended purpose, but many DECmates
>will be unable to read this diskette.  Literally, it will get a CRC error
>on *every* sector!  Furthermore, if you attempt to write an image of the
>software onto this diskette, it will get a CRC error on *every* sector even
>though it just wrote the disk out!
>
>Enter Teledisk to the rescue!
>
>When I read Teledisk's documentation, I had doubts that it could solve
>this problem, because I noticed it could be quite "smart", perhaps *too*
>smart!  It claims that it can get around certain copy-protection methods
>by virtue of how it operates, so I figured that it would likely copy the
>problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(.  Or, alternatively, it might guess that
>the diskette was an RX50 and proceed to format it in a stock manner, thus
>destroying the optimization applied by using the two FDFORMAT commands instead
>of just using RAINDOS or 22DISK to create stock low-level RX50 diskettes.
>
>Well, I was wrong on both counts!
>
>Teledisk understands how to maintain sector order, and pointed out the
>change of interleave from 1:1 to 2:1 at track 78, so that problem is
>hurdled.
>
>Teledisk understands that these sectors should be formatted with apparently
>the same parameters as the formatting routines in 22DISK and RAINDOS, so the
>resultant disk *is* readable on DECmates!  Of course, this is *not* an
>"exact" copy, but rather it is a "better" copy.  Apparently Teledisk only
>writes sectors in a "sane" format, and the copy-protection they refer to
>is the class of "funny" sector ordering, size, or count, not any lower-level
>details.  Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also
>within Teledisk, thus since Teledisk recognizes the disk as a 10-sector/track
>512 bytes/sector disk, it writes it as would RAINDOS, etc., except Teledisk
>is sensitive to sector ordering unlike the other Sydex programs, etc.
>
>Thus, the descendent disk is actually *better* than the original.  I can now
>therefore distribute diskettes in the intended format for working-copy usage
>of the best effort of each diskette :-).
>
>Additionally, if I modify distribution diskettes to be in their intended
>format instead of their original stock format (virtually all diskettes that
>need to be distributed are in stock RX50 format, because the need to create
>optimal diskette layout is generally newer than the software; indeed, this
>entire effort is to distribute software that performs *better* than the
>original!), then the master disks should be copied with Teledisk to create
>perfect copies in one step.
>
>There are additional advantages:
>
>Teledisk can also create an MS-DOS file that is the image of the diskette
>in either a rudimentary-compressed or advanced-compressed form.  These files
>can be transmitted down the net and then reconstructed on PC-AT's for use
>on RX50 targets.  Since they are compressed, this minimizes the overhead 
>as well, etc.
>
>So, Teledisk has made my day :-).
>
>cjl
>
>From barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu Wed Aug  5 10:12:06 1992
>From: barry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 4 Aug 92 12:13:30 GMT
>Organization: MicroMuse
>In-reply-to: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu's message of 3 Aug 92 05:39:27 GMT
>
>Charles,
>
>You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from
>newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory.
>
>Barry
>
>From lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu Wed Aug  5 10:12:14 1992
>From: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Newsgroups: comp.sys.dec.micro
>Subject: Re: reading rainbow disks on a '386 PC
>Date: 4 Aug 92 18:41:23 GMT
>Reply-To: lasner at watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner)
>Organization: Columbia University
>Nntp-Posting-Host: watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>In article <BARRY.92Aug4081330 at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu> 
>arry at chezmoto.ai.mit.edu (Barry Kort) writes:
>
>>Charles,
>
>>You can retreive rt11.zip by anonymous ftp from
>>newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in the pub/local directory.
>
>>Barry
>
>Got it.  It looks nice.  It produces what appears to be a nice RT-11-like
>environment on a PC for file transfers, etc., but is inferior to Teledisk
>for the purpose of making a compacted image of an entire disk as a DOS
>file.  Since this is a frill, it can be completely overlooked :-).
>
>And yes, it does Format DD-type media to stock RX50 as advertised.  I will
>only take you to task on the minor point: it doesn't require RX50DRVR at all.
>There was a little confusion as to whether they were tied together, which is
>not the case.
>
>This program is written in Turbo Pascal.  It would seem that someone who
>can understand enough TP and the quirky code to call BIOS routines should
>incorporate some of RT11.PAS into FDFORMAT (also a TP-based item) since
>the format routine works fine while FDFORMAT does not for RX50 as discussed
>elsewhere.
>
>Overall a nice program.
>
>cjl
>
>
>
>
>

--
entropy -- it's not just a good idea, it's the second law.

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From lars at nocrew.org  Tue Jul 25 15:55:00 2000
From: lars at nocrew.org (lars brinkhoff)
Date: 25 Jul 2000 07:55:00 +0200
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Mon, 24 Jul 2000 20:00:06 -0700 (PDT)"
References: <200007250300.UAA22851@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <858zuq21qj.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

"Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes:
> > From: Warren Toomey <wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> > I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.
> 	Hmmm, I don't think they're corrupt.

I use the 2.11_rp_unknown (Current Patch Level: 400, Date: January 24,
1998) image without any problems.  Well, I didn't know the root
password, so I had to erase it in single user mode.

> 	Wasn't there a similar posting a month or two ago about someone (I 
> 	forget who it was) having "massive corruption".   It turned out that
> 	the simulator was only told to use 256kb of memory (18bit mode).  Once
> 	the "set cpu 2048k" command was added to the conf file the problems
> 	cleared right up.

That was probably me.

> 	Try putting "set cpu 2048k" (I don't _think_ you need both "set cpu
> 	22b" and "set cpu 2048k" but having both doesn't hurt and may help).

This is the script I use:

set cpu 22b
set cpu 3072K
at rp0 2.11_rp_unknown
at rl0 x.tar
b rp


From lcanet at wanadoo.fr  Tue Jul 25 22:24:39 2000
From: lcanet at wanadoo.fr (Laurent Canet)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:24:39 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11 BSD image booting  
References: <200007250014.KAA35364@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <397d8707398e9b99@apicra.wanadoo.fr> (added by apicra.wanadoo.fr)


> > In the same rut as Andy Valencia:
> > I have tried booting the 2.11 BSD distribution that was in the boot images
> > directory, it has something like 9 disc pack images, and a script to boot it
> > with Supnik. Well, it boots all right, but I can't access most of the
> > filesystem, just the root, and even there most of the files seem corrupt. It
> > gets even worse when I try to shut it down. It will not even boot back up
> > after I shut it down in the emulator.
> 
> I think all the 2.11BSD disk images in Boot_Images are suspect.
> 
I ran the 2.11bsd_on_rl02 without problems on bob supnik's emulator. (you need to issue a mount -a command after booting in order to mount the 4 RL02 disk and the 5 RK packs in correct places)

I also ran the 2.11_rp_unknown on bob supnik's emulator and on p11.
It worked fine except that password files were corrupted (and contained unknown passwords)
So I replaced /etc/passwd*; /etc/master.passwd; /bin/passwd and /etc/mkpasswd (which was no present) with the files of the RL distribution

Now it works very good, on p11 emulator under linux 2.2 with networking support.

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From SHOPPA at enterprise.trailing-edge.com  Tue Jul 25 22:02:19 2000
From: SHOPPA at enterprise.trailing-edge.com (SHOPPA at enterprise.trailing-edge.com)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 8:02:19 -0400
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
Message-ID: <000725080219.224004d6@enterprise.trailing-edge.com>

>> 2.) Can it be done without a tape? If so, has anybody pulled it off?

>	A ~32mb disk is going to be very tight for any 2BSD system.  V7 will
>	fit I think.

But does V7 have a MSCP disk driver?  Recommending to someone that all they
have to do is write a driver when they don't even have a running machine yet
is, IMHO, a bit optimistic :-).

Of course, under the Mentec PDP-11 hobbyist program he could install
RT-11 or RSX-11 or MicroRSTS on such a machine quite nicely from a bunch
of RX50 or RX33 floppies he made from the Mentec CD-ROM's.

>> 3.) Are there any utilities, either DOS or UNIX/Linux/FreeBSD based, to write
>> and/or format RX50 floppies?

>	Hmmm, I thought John Wilson has some utilities that could do that.

  See ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/putr/

How many RX50's would it take to hold a root filesystem dump?  15 or so?
It's not *quite* as cruel as the RX01 root distribution we discussed over
some Pastrami sandwiches a couple of years back.  But it is approaching the
"Wagner Ring cycle on convenient 45's" stage!

>	On the other hand if the controller is an RQDX3 it is possible with
>	some luck (and more hardware skill than I have ;)) hook up a standard
>	5.25" Teac floppy drive.   I don't have the location of the info for
>	that at hand - you might try the alt.sys.pdp11 or vmsnet.pdp-11 
>	newsgroups (lots of knowing folks hang out there).

  See ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt

See, it's these sorts of references we need in the PUPS FAQ list.  The
same questions come up every month, I give the same pointers, then everybody
forgets them again, until I answer the same questions the next month :-).

Tim. (shoppa at trailing-edge.com)

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From wb at vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de  Wed Jul 26 01:43:29 2000
From: wb at vestein.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de (Wilhelm B. Kloke)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:43:29 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: [pups] Algol 68 for PDP11?
Message-ID: <200007251543.RAA31300@yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de>

Hi,

is a location known where this may be preserved? This should be
an Algol68S (P.Hibbard) compiler from CMU adapted for V7 Unix in Manitoba.
At least, Andy Walker calls the beast 'Manitoba compiler'. See recent
discussion in comp.lang.misc.

Regards, wbk
-- 
Dipl.-Math. Wilhelm Bernhard Kloke
Institut fuer Arbeitsphysiologie an der Universitaet Dortmund
Ardeystrasse 67, D-44139 Dortmund, Tel. 0231-1084-257

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Jul 26 08:24:51 2000
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 08:24:51 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re; Algol 68 for PDP11?
In-Reply-To: <200007251543.RAA31300@yorikke.arb-phys.uni-dortmund.de> from "Wilhelm
 B. Kloke" at "Jul 25, 2000 05:43:29 pm"
Message-ID: <200007252224.IAA40182@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Wilhelm B. Kloke:
> Hi,
> 
> is a location known where this may be preserved? This should be
> an Algol68S (P.Hibbard) compiler from CMU adapted for V7 Unix in Manitoba.
> At least, Andy Walker calls the beast 'Manitoba compiler'. See recent
> discussion in comp.lang.misc.
> 
> Regards, wbk

Is it freely available or requires a license? Regardless, I'd be happy
to put it in to the PDP-11/Applications area in our Unix Archive.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Jul 26 09:47:40 2000
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 16:47:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [pups] Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running
Message-ID: <200007252347.QAA05298@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: SHOPPA at enterprise.trailing-edge.com
> 
> But does V7 have a MSCP disk driver?  Recommending to someone that all they

	Oops - I messed up there didn't I?  Concentrated so much on the size
	of the disk I forgot about the MSCPness of the device :(

	Ummm, as a matter of fact no it doesn't.  Depending what version 
	of V7 you have it may or may not even have an RL driver.

> How many RX50's would it take to hold a root filesystem dump?  15 or so?

	Oh perhaps 8 or 9.  Using RX33 disks it only took 4 floppies but 
	the RX50 is what, 400kb (about 1/3 that of the RX33).

	It's more like just Siegfried on 45's rather than the entire Ring ;)

>   See ftp://ftp.spc.edu/third-party-disks.txt

	Is ftp.spc.edu still up and running?  I know spc11c.spc.edu is out of
	action and I'm not sure home much longer the systems at SPC.EDU will
	keep running now that Terry's no longer there.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Thu Jul 27 23:48:45 2000
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2000 09:48:45 -0400
Subject: [pups] V7 vs RX50 (was Getting a MicroPDP-11 Running)
Message-ID: <200007271351.XAA90686@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

400KB floppies, or even 1.4MB ones, may seem tiny now; but they should
hardly be undersized for a bare-bones V7 root file system.  Remember
that disks weren't all that big in the late 1970s, and that one of the
important fixes in V7 was that it became possible to make a file system
bigger than 32MB.

The V7 version of the `Setting Up UNIX' paper doesn't say just how big
the root file system dump is, but the instructions say the file system
itself should have 5000 blocks: about 2.4MB.  If the dump was that big,
it would have taken just over 6 RX50 diskettes.  (But it probably wasn't
that big, because there must have been a good bit of free space in the
standard root--/tmp was there too!)

I once ran a stripped-down V7 off a single RK05 (2.5MB including swap)
for several days, during an air-conditioning crisis.  The system wasn't
fully-functional, but there was enough there to let the secretarial staff
keep up with their typing, and even run troff.

The real trouble with the RX50 is not so much the size as the speed:
the damn things are painfully slow.  I sometimes boot my V10 MicroVAXes
from RX50, as part of an experimental Jumpstart-like installation scheme.
The bare-bones installation environment requires only two floppies; the
real nuisance is that it takes several minutes to read them.

And, of course, V7 doesn't have an MSCP driver, since MSCP didn't hit the
streets until 1982 or so.

Norman Wilson


From jp at spektr.eu.org  Sun Jul 30 11:54:32 2000
From: jp at spektr.eu.org (Jorgen Pehrson)
Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 03:54:32 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [pups] Overlays?
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.21.0007300336450.13497-100000@spektr.eu.org>

Hi,
I've just installed 2.11BSD on one of my PDPs, from a TK50 tape I just
re-discovered in the trunk of my car. And now I'm in the process of
applying patches. When I installed patch 412 and started to rebuild the
kernel, ld complains with a "ld: too big for type 431". 
Does this means that I have to rearrange stuff between the BASE and the
various OV entries?

How can I find out which overlay is too big? I've tried to do a:
138% root--> size unix.o
text    data    bss     dec     hex
52352   6928    37622   96902   17a86   total text: 115520
        overlays: 7680,7232,7808,7744,4864,8576,4736,6848,7680

How big is too big? And also if none of the overlays above are too big, I
guess it must be the BASE that is too big? 

Is there some sort of documentation anywhere that describe this voodoo
stuff and black magic a bit? 

Btw, I've put my makefile is at http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/Makefile.LOKE. 
Any suggestions on what .o file I should move to what overlay?

Thanks!

-- 
Jörgen Pehrson  jp at spektr.eu.org  http://spektr.eu.org/~jp/
-----------------------------------------------------------
"i must say the linux community is a lot nicer than the unix
community. a negative comment on unix would warrent death
threats. with linux, it is like stirring up a nest of butterflies."
             -- Ken Thompson. 1999

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From rblair at webteksdesign.com  Sat Jul 29 07:12:05 2000
From: rblair at webteksdesign.com (Ryan Blair)
Date: Fri, 28 Jul 2000 17:12:05 -0400
Subject: [pups] makesimtape.c
Message-ID: <000b01bff8d8$831b6be0$b40f0923@rbp200>

While reading back through the mailing list messages, trying to find out why
my tape images never seem to work, I came across a program that I cannot
seem to find. It was mentioned lately as "makesimtape.c" but I cannot find
it anywhere in the archives. Anybody have a lead on this?

Thanks,
Ryan Blair
rblair at webteksdesign.com


