From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun May  5 06:48:29 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 13:48:29 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] interpreted C?
Message-ID: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>

Decades ago there was an interpreted C in an X10 or X11 app, I believe it
came from the UK.  And maybe it wasn't X11, maybe it was Sunview? 
Whatever it was the author didn't like the bundled scrollbars and had
their own custom made one.

You could set breakpoints like a debugger and then go look around at state.

Does anyone else remember that app and what it was called?

From bakul at bitblocks.com  Sun May  5 07:08:10 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 14:08:10 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] interpreted C?
In-Reply-To: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>
References: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <1B576642-442C-4C4F-8374-A966BD63DAB8@bitblocks.com>

The ups debugger by Mark Russell of University of Kent. It used x11 or sunview. IIRC it used a separate graphics library built directly on top of x11 (or sunview) that provided variable scrolling etc. scrolling speed and direction depended on the distance you dragged the mouse pointer from its initial position. You could click on any source like and add a break or custom code in interpreted C. You could click on the data structure window and follow linked list structures etc. The last version was 3.38 in 2003. I don’t think it works with anything more modern than gcc3. The nicest debugger I ever used.

> On May 4, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> Decades ago there was an interpreted C in an X10 or X11 app, I believe it
> came from the UK.  And maybe it wasn't X11, maybe it was Sunview? 
> Whatever it was the author didn't like the bundled scrollbars and had
> their own custom made one.
> 
> You could set breakpoints like a debugger and then go look around at state.
> 
> Does anyone else remember that app and what it was called?


From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun May  5 07:30:00 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 14:30:00 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] interpreted C?
In-Reply-To: <1B576642-442C-4C4F-8374-A966BD63DAB8@bitblocks.com>
References: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>
 <1B576642-442C-4C4F-8374-A966BD63DAB8@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <20190504213000.GC25317@mcvoy.com>

That's it!  And my memory is exactly like yours, it was a pleasant debugger.
And I think you are right, the normal code was C but the break points ran
in a interpreter.  Neat tool, a shame it's not maintained.

On Sat, May 04, 2019 at 02:08:10PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> The ups debugger by Mark Russell of University of Kent. It used x11 or sunview. IIRC it used a separate graphics library built directly on top of x11 (or sunview) that provided variable scrolling etc. scrolling speed and direction depended on the distance you dragged the mouse pointer from its initial position. You could click on any source like and add a break or custom code in interpreted C. You could click on the data structure window and follow linked list structures etc. The last version was 3.38 in 2003. I don???t think it works with anything more modern than gcc3. The nicest debugger I ever used.
> 
> > On May 4, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > 
> > Decades ago there was an interpreted C in an X10 or X11 app, I believe it
> > came from the UK.  And maybe it wasn't X11, maybe it was Sunview? 
> > Whatever it was the author didn't like the bundled scrollbars and had
> > their own custom made one.
> > 
> > You could set breakpoints like a debugger and then go look around at state.
> > 
> > Does anyone else remember that app and what it was called?

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From rich.salz at gmail.com  Sun May  5 08:05:53 2019
From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Richard Salz)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 18:05:53 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] interpreted C?
In-Reply-To: <20190504213000.GC25317@mcvoy.com>
References: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>
 <1B576642-442C-4C4F-8374-A966BD63DAB8@bitblocks.com>
 <20190504213000.GC25317@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAFH29tpzJ4e1Q+hC7zeXySDuRvtRQP7cz9jSVijnb+SNH_bmKA@mail.gmail.com>

Also there was a commercial product, centerline C. Originally Saber-C.
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From bakul at bitblocks.com  Sun May  5 08:18:30 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 15:18:30 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] interpreted C?
In-Reply-To: <20190504213000.GC25317@mcvoy.com>
References: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>
 <1B576642-442C-4C4F-8374-A966BD63DAB8@bitblocks.com>
 <20190504213000.GC25317@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <62C741C1-F45D-4D12-941A-54F2B33A87DD@bitblocks.com>

Turns out, it is still being maintained!

https://github.com/sth/ups

Previous sourceforge site is still around and has a screenshot of ups
http://ups.sourceforge.net/

No idea if the ups-users group is around. The last time there was any activity
was in 2010 — including a post from you!

> On May 4, 2019, at 2:30 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> That's it!  And my memory is exactly like yours, it was a pleasant debugger.
> And I think you are right, the normal code was C but the break points ran
> in a interpreter.  Neat tool, a shame it's not maintained.
> 
>> On Sat, May 04, 2019 at 02:08:10PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
>> The ups debugger by Mark Russell of University of Kent. It used x11 or sunview. IIRC it used a separate graphics library built directly on top of x11 (or sunview) that provided variable scrolling etc. scrolling speed and direction depended on the distance you dragged the mouse pointer from its initial position. You could click on any source like and add a break or custom code in interpreted C. You could click on the data structure window and follow linked list structures etc. The last version was 3.38 in 2003. I don???t think it works with anything more modern than gcc3. The nicest debugger I ever used.
>> 
>>> On May 4, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Decades ago there was an interpreted C in an X10 or X11 app, I believe it
>>> came from the UK.  And maybe it wasn't X11, maybe it was Sunview? 
>>> Whatever it was the author didn't like the bundled scrollbars and had
>>> their own custom made one.
>>> 
>>> You could set breakpoints like a debugger and then go look around at state.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone else remember that app and what it was called?
> 
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy                     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 
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From nobozo at gmail.com  Sun May  5 08:23:50 2019
From: nobozo at gmail.com (Jon Forrest)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 15:23:50 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] interpreted C?
In-Reply-To: <CAFH29tpzJ4e1Q+hC7zeXySDuRvtRQP7cz9jSVijnb+SNH_bmKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>
 <1B576642-442C-4C4F-8374-A966BD63DAB8@bitblocks.com>
 <20190504213000.GC25317@mcvoy.com>
 <CAFH29tpzJ4e1Q+hC7zeXySDuRvtRQP7cz9jSVijnb+SNH_bmKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c8bddcf0-c296-f209-d678-70bc9bdc5ad5@gmail.com>



On 5/4/2019 3:05 PM, Richard Salz wrote:
> Also there was a commercial product, centerline C. Originally Saber-C.

There's also Ch from https://www.softintegration.com/


"Ch is a C/C++ interpreter and scripting language environment."

Jon

From clemc at ccc.com  Sun May  5 08:35:15 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 18:35:15 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] interpreted C?
In-Reply-To: <c8bddcf0-c296-f209-d678-70bc9bdc5ad5@gmail.com>
References: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>
 <1B576642-442C-4C4F-8374-A966BD63DAB8@bitblocks.com>
 <20190504213000.GC25317@mcvoy.com>
 <CAFH29tpzJ4e1Q+hC7zeXySDuRvtRQP7cz9jSVijnb+SNH_bmKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <c8bddcf0-c296-f209-d678-70bc9bdc5ad5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <049F84E5-E84F-4B4F-B611-EBE5D9F04995@ccc.com>

Peter Darrell did another one as a companion to the his learning C book in the mid/late 90s.  I’ll have to ask him what happened to it.  He later morphed it into VisSol which was a mathlab like language that was visual drag/drop system that was popular in the scientific community.  

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On May 4, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Jon Forrest <nobozo at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On 5/4/2019 3:05 PM, Richard Salz wrote:
>> Also there was a commercial product, centerline C. Originally Saber-C.
> 
> There's also Ch from https://www.softintegration.com/
> 
> 
> "Ch is a C/C++ interpreter and scripting language environment."
> 
> Jon

From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun May  5 10:07:08 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 17:07:08 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] interpreted C?
In-Reply-To: <62C741C1-F45D-4D12-941A-54F2B33A87DD@bitblocks.com>
References: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>
 <1B576642-442C-4C4F-8374-A966BD63DAB8@bitblocks.com>
 <20190504213000.GC25317@mcvoy.com>
 <62C741C1-F45D-4D12-941A-54F2B33A87DD@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <20190505000708.GF25317@mcvoy.com>

Does anyone know what the fix is for this:

./ci_compile_expr.c: In function 'opcode_offset':
./ci_compile_expr.c:599:11: error: 'LONGLONG_FORM_OFFSET' undeclared (first use
in this function)
    return LONGLONG_FORM_OFFSET;

On Sat, May 04, 2019 at 03:18:30PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> Turns out, it is still being maintained!
> 
> https://github.com/sth/ups
> 
> Previous sourceforge site is still around and has a screenshot of ups
> http://ups.sourceforge.net/
> 
> No idea if the ups-users group is around. The last time there was any activity
> was in 2010 ??? including a post from you!
> 
> > On May 4, 2019, at 2:30 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > 
> > That's it!  And my memory is exactly like yours, it was a pleasant debugger.
> > And I think you are right, the normal code was C but the break points ran
> > in a interpreter.  Neat tool, a shame it's not maintained.
> > 
> >> On Sat, May 04, 2019 at 02:08:10PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> >> The ups debugger by Mark Russell of University of Kent. It used x11 or sunview. IIRC it used a separate graphics library built directly on top of x11 (or sunview) that provided variable scrolling etc. scrolling speed and direction depended on the distance you dragged the mouse pointer from its initial position. You could click on any source like and add a break or custom code in interpreted C. You could click on the data structure window and follow linked list structures etc. The last version was 3.38 in 2003. I don???t think it works with anything more modern than gcc3. The nicest debugger I ever used.
> >> 
> >>> On May 4, 2019, at 1:48 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >>> 
> >>> Decades ago there was an interpreted C in an X10 or X11 app, I believe it
> >>> came from the UK.  And maybe it wasn't X11, maybe it was Sunview? 
> >>> Whatever it was the author didn't like the bundled scrollbars and had
> >>> their own custom made one.
> >>> 
> >>> You could set breakpoints like a debugger and then go look around at state.
> >>> 
> >>> Does anyone else remember that app and what it was called?
> > 
> > -- 
> > ---
> > Larry McVoy                     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From bakul at bitblocks.com  Sun May  5 10:15:40 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Sat, 04 May 2019 17:15:40 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] interpreted C?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 04 May 2019 17:07:08 -0700."
 <20190505000708.GF25317@mcvoy.com>
References: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>
 <1B576642-442C-4C4F-8374-A966BD63DAB8@bitblocks.com>
 <20190504213000.GC25317@mcvoy.com>
 <62C741C1-F45D-4D12-941A-54F2B33A87DD@bitblocks.com>
 <20190505000708.GF25317@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <20190505001547.F0B93156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com>

On Sat, 04 May 2019 17:07:08 -0700 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> Does anyone know what the fix is for this:
>
> ./ci_compile_expr.c: In function 'opcode_offset':
> ./ci_compile_expr.c:599:11: error: 'LONGLONG_FORM_OFFSET' undeclared (first u
> se
> in this function)
>     return LONGLONG_FORM_OFFSET;

add --enable-longlong when calling configure.
This is still not enough to compile it on freebsd though.
I hacked in #include <sys/signal.h> in ifdefs.h but nope.

From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun May  5 10:29:17 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 4 May 2019 17:29:17 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] interpreted C?
In-Reply-To: <20190505001547.F0B93156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <20190504204829.GB25317@mcvoy.com>
 <1B576642-442C-4C4F-8374-A966BD63DAB8@bitblocks.com>
 <20190504213000.GC25317@mcvoy.com>
 <62C741C1-F45D-4D12-941A-54F2B33A87DD@bitblocks.com>
 <20190505000708.GF25317@mcvoy.com>
 <20190505001547.F0B93156E40C@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <20190505002917.GG25317@mcvoy.com>

On Sat, May 04, 2019 at 05:15:40PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> On Sat, 04 May 2019 17:07:08 -0700 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > Does anyone know what the fix is for this:
> >
> > ./ci_compile_expr.c: In function 'opcode_offset':
> > ./ci_compile_expr.c:599:11: error: 'LONGLONG_FORM_OFFSET' undeclared (first u
> > se
> > in this function)
> >     return LONGLONG_FORM_OFFSET;
> 
> add --enable-longlong when calling configure.
> This is still not enough to compile it on freebsd though.
> I hacked in #include <sys/signal.h> in ifdefs.h but nope.

I got it to build on Linux 4.4.0-146-generic - cool!  Blast from the
past!
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Tue May  7 22:50:24 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 08:50:24 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Brian interviewing Ken <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY6q5dv_B-o>
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From crossd at gmail.com  Wed May  8 00:17:08 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 10:17:08 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, that's really great! I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that I didn't get
Ken's shirt until 30 minutes into the talk....

On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 8:51 AM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com> wrote:

> Brian interviewing Ken <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY6q5dv_B-o>
>
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From david at kdbarto.org  Wed May  8 00:33:48 2019
From: david at kdbarto.org (David)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 07:33:48 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CDD5A35C-0C78-47A9-AF99-1957A577000C@kdbarto.org>

Loved the talk, and getting more information about Belle.

Saw the shirt right away, even understood the greek.

	David

> On May 7, 2019, at 7:17 AM, Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Wow, that's really great! I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that I didn't get Ken's shirt until 30 minutes into the talk....
> 
> On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 8:51 AM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com <mailto:jpl.jpl at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Brian interviewing Ken <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY6q5dv_B-o>

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From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed May  8 02:32:24 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue,  7 May 2019 12:32:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
Message-ID: <20190507163224.A02DD18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: "John P. Linderman"

    > Brian interviewing Ken

Ah, thanks for that. I had intended going (since I've never met Ken), but
alas, my daughter's family had previously scheduled to visit that weekend, so
I couldn't go.

The 'grep' story was amusing, but historically, probably the most valuable
thing was the detail on the origins of B - DMR's paper on early C ("The
Development of the C Language") mentions the FORTRAN, but doesn't give the
detail on why that got canned, and B appeared instead.

       Noel


From aap at papnet.eu  Wed May  8 02:36:12 2019
From: aap at papnet.eu (Angelo Papenhoff)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 18:36:12 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <20190507163224.A02DD18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190507163224.A02DD18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20190507163612.GA29343@indra.papnet.eu>

On 07/05/19, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> The 'grep' story was amusing, but historically, probably the most valuable
> thing was the detail on the origins of B - DMR's paper on early C ("The
> Development of the C Language") mentions the FORTRAN, but doesn't give the
> detail on why that got canned, and B appeared instead.

I was also quite surprised by that. No mention of BCPL...

Great video, really loved it.

From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed May  8 02:51:31 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Tue, 07 May 2019 10:51:31 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201905071651.x47GpVad031140@freefriends.org>

Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow, that's really great! I'm somewhat ashamed to admit that I didn't get
> Ken's shirt until 30 minutes into the talk....

Can you clue in those of us who are less mathematically (or whatever)
inclined?

Thanks,

Arnold

From ality at pbrane.org  Wed May  8 03:04:41 2019
From: ality at pbrane.org (Anthony Martin)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2019 10:04:41 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <201905071651.x47GpVad031140@freefriends.org>
References: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201905071651.x47GpVad031140@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <20190507170441.GA19420@alice>

arnold at skeeve.com once said:
> Can you clue in those of us who are less mathematically (or whatever)
> inclined?

You are not expected to understand this [t-shirt].

  Anthony

From grog at lemis.com  Fri May 10 14:45:41 2019
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Fri, 10 May 2019 14:45:41 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <20190507170441.GA19420@alice>
References: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <201905071651.x47GpVad031140@freefriends.org>
 <20190507170441.GA19420@alice>
Message-ID: <20190510044541.GA13284@eureka.lemis.com>

On Tuesday,  7 May 2019 at 10:04:41 -0700, Anthony Martin wrote:
> arnold at skeeve.com once said:
>> Can you clue in those of us who are less mathematically (or whatever)
>> inclined?
>
> You are not expected to understand this [t-shirt].

I found that particularly clever.  It's not Greek, as far as I can
tell, but who cares?  You are not expected to understand it.

Of course, the real clue was the code (Sixth Edition
/usr/sys/ken/slp.c, lines 325 and on).

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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From arno.griffioen at ieee.org  Sun May 12 18:07:38 2019
From: arno.griffioen at ieee.org (Arno Griffioen)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 10:07:38 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <CDD5A35C-0C78-47A9-AF99-1957A577000C@kdbarto.org>
References: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CDD5A35C-0C78-47A9-AF99-1957A577000C@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <20190512080738.GB25068@ancienthardware.org>

On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 07:33:48AM -0700, David wrote:
> Loved the talk, and getting more information about Belle.

At the risk of going off-topic TUHS-wise.. This month:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon-revolution/in-1983-this-bell-labs-computer-was-the-first-machine-to-become-a-chess-master


							Bye, Arno.

From robpike at gmail.com  Sun May 12 22:09:13 2019
From: robpike at gmail.com (Rob Pike)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 22:09:13 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <20190512080738.GB25068@ancienthardware.org>
References: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CDD5A35C-0C78-47A9-AF99-1957A577000C@kdbarto.org>
 <20190512080738.GB25068@ancienthardware.org>
Message-ID: <CAKzdPgwfxTb6wJ=REs0kOHn_ugVqXm=BdW07t1KYDXJgmxDPRg@mail.gmail.com>

That photo is not Belle, or at least not the Belle machine that the article
is about. Belle is in a white wooden box about the size of a bar fridge,
with a stylized blue and gold logo on the side.

-rob


On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 6:21 PM Arno Griffioen <arno.griffioen at ieee.org>
wrote:

> On Tue, May 07, 2019 at 07:33:48AM -0700, David wrote:
> > Loved the talk, and getting more information about Belle.
>
> At the risk of going off-topic TUHS-wise.. This month:
>
>
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon-revolution/in-1983-this-bell-labs-computer-was-the-first-machine-to-become-a-chess-master
>
>
>                                                         Bye, Arno.
>
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From ralph at inputplus.co.uk  Sun May 12 22:36:44 2019
From: ralph at inputplus.co.uk (Ralph Corderoy)
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 13:36:44 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <CAKzdPgwfxTb6wJ=REs0kOHn_ugVqXm=BdW07t1KYDXJgmxDPRg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CDD5A35C-0C78-47A9-AF99-1957A577000C@kdbarto.org>
 <20190512080738.GB25068@ancienthardware.org>
 <CAKzdPgwfxTb6wJ=REs0kOHn_ugVqXm=BdW07t1KYDXJgmxDPRg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190512123644.DEF3721C9A@orac.inputplus.co.uk>

Hi Rob,

> > https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon-revolution/in-1983-this-bell-labs-computer-was-the-first-machine-to-become-a-chess-master
>
> That photo is not Belle, or at least not the Belle machine that the
> article is about.  Belle is in a white wooden box about the size of a
> bar fridge, with a stylized blue and gold logo on the side.

Here's a picture that matches.  http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=23230

The one in the article seems to come from
http://www.peteradamsphoto.com/belle-chess-machine/

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.

From robpike at gmail.com  Mon May 13 22:48:36 2019
From: robpike at gmail.com (Rob Pike)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 22:48:36 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <20190512123644.DEF3721C9A@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
References: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CDD5A35C-0C78-47A9-AF99-1957A577000C@kdbarto.org>
 <20190512080738.GB25068@ancienthardware.org>
 <CAKzdPgwfxTb6wJ=REs0kOHn_ugVqXm=BdW07t1KYDXJgmxDPRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190512123644.DEF3721C9A@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAKzdPgy4hjpwOgqyZshnzu1ZH2yMFXTLue=tKNocOO84JRYBCg@mail.gmail.com>

Ken tells me (and I now remember) that the photo in the article was of a
sort of input device, a board built by Dave Hagelbarger that sensed where
the pieces were so could digitize moves.

-rob


On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 10:44 PM Ralph Corderoy <ralph at inputplus.co.uk>
wrote:

> Hi Rob,
>
> > >
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-history/silicon-revolution/in-1983-this-bell-labs-computer-was-the-first-machine-to-become-a-chess-master
> >
> > That photo is not Belle, or at least not the Belle machine that the
> > article is about.  Belle is in a white wooden box about the size of a
> > bar fridge, with a stylized blue and gold logo on the side.
>
> Here's a picture that matches.
> http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=23230
>
> The one in the article seems to come from
> http://www.peteradamsphoto.com/belle-chess-machine/
>
> --
> Cheers, Ralph.
>
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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Tue May 14 00:14:41 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 10:14:41 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East [Belle]
Message-ID: <201905131414.x4DEEfpq039056@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> That photo is not Belle, or at least not the Belle machine that the article
is about.

The photo shows the piece-sensing (by tuned resonant circuits)
chess board that Joe Condon built before he and Ken built the
harware version of Belle that reigned as world computer chess
champion for several years beginning in 1980 and became the
first machine to earn a master rating.

Doug

From jon at fourwinds.com  Tue May 14 02:26:44 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Mon, 13 May 2019 09:26:44 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <CAKzdPgy4hjpwOgqyZshnzu1ZH2yMFXTLue=tKNocOO84JRYBCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC0cEp_7Y26RM5Lm53R_89JrPPQdGcoi8VRq_4r81KwYGuhRHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEoi9W6jPt2ByjfKYtjvvqB1dGg2A1n7mrFp6nf5HoXJeUwP9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CDD5A35C-0C78-47A9-AF99-1957A577000C@kdbarto.org>
 <20190512080738.GB25068@ancienthardware.org>
 <CAKzdPgwfxTb6wJ=REs0kOHn_ugVqXm=BdW07t1KYDXJgmxDPRg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190512123644.DEF3721C9A@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
 <CAKzdPgy4hjpwOgqyZshnzu1ZH2yMFXTLue=tKNocOO84JRYBCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201905131626.x4DGQiIR018261@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

Rob Pike writes:
>
> Ken tells me (and I now remember) that the photo in the article was of a
> sort of input device, a board built by Dave Hagelbarger that sensed where
> the pieces were so could digitize moves.
>
> -rob

My extremely fuzzy recollection is that Dave had an LC tuned circuit in the
base in each chess piece and an antenna coil underneath each square on the
board.

Jon

From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Tue May 14 23:41:00 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 09:41:00 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
Message-ID: <201905141341.x4EDf0Q2140314@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

About the creator of the sensing chessboard: It was Dave Hagelbarger,
as Rob said, not Joe Condon as I wrongly recalled.

Doug

From ralph at inputplus.co.uk  Wed May 15 05:36:39 2019
From: ralph at inputplus.co.uk (Ralph Corderoy)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 20:36:39 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <201905141341.x4EDf0Q2140314@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201905141341.x4EDf0Q2140314@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <20190514193639.8E7132199F@orac.inputplus.co.uk>

Hi,

Doug wrote:
> About the creator of the sensing chessboard: It was Dave Hagelbarger,
> as Rob said

And if others are thinking Dave sounds familiar, like me, it's because
he was co-developer of the CARDIAC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CARDboard_Illustrative_Aid_to_Computation

-- 
Cheers, Ralph.

From jon at fourwinds.com  Wed May 15 07:01:59 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Tue, 14 May 2019 14:01:59 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <20190514193639.8E7132199F@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
References: <201905141341.x4EDf0Q2140314@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <20190514193639.8E7132199F@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
Message-ID: <201905142101.x4EL1x1j027122@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

Ralph Corderoy writes:
> Hi,
>
> And if others are thinking Dave sounds familiar, like me, it's because
> he was co-developer of the CARDIAC.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CARDboard_Illustrative_Aid_to_Computation
>
> -- 
> Cheers, Ralph.

Dave was one of my favorite people in my group.  He was the first person
that met who was absolutely brilliant in technology but couldn't spare any
cycles for things like tying his shoes.

Another interesting thing that he designed was the keyboard that eventually
got hooked up to the music playing version of the digital filter setup that
Hal Alles and Jim Kaiser designed.  It had a ribbon cable the length of the
keyboard that was fed by a binary pattern, and each key had an antenna that
moved across the cable when it was pressed making it possible to determine
how far a key was pressed down.

Jon

From robpike at gmail.com  Wed May 15 07:48:45 2019
From: robpike at gmail.com (Rob Pike)
Date: Wed, 15 May 2019 07:48:45 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] VCF East
In-Reply-To: <201905142101.x4EL1x1j027122@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <201905141341.x4EDf0Q2140314@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <20190514193639.8E7132199F@orac.inputplus.co.uk>
 <201905142101.x4EL1x1j027122@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <CAKzdPgzM94k=f+6d-1ui3PAZkL7p=5U0zP1vTEV6DSOa93gPYg@mail.gmail.com>

Dave had lots of spare cycles. He was almost all fun. He tied his shoelaces
and his bow tie every day.

-rob


On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 7:02 AM Jon Steinhart <jon at fourwinds.com> wrote:

> Ralph Corderoy writes:
> > Hi,
> >
> > And if others are thinking Dave sounds familiar, like me, it's because
> > he was co-developer of the CARDIAC.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CARDboard_Illustrative_Aid_to_Computation
> >
> > --
> > Cheers, Ralph.
>
> Dave was one of my favorite people in my group.  He was the first person
> that met who was absolutely brilliant in technology but couldn't spare any
> cycles for things like tying his shoes.
>
> Another interesting thing that he designed was the keyboard that eventually
> got hooked up to the music playing version of the digital filter setup that
> Hal Alles and Jim Kaiser designed.  It had a ribbon cable the length of the
> keyboard that was fed by a binary pattern, and each key had an antenna that
> moved across the cable when it was pressed making it possible to determine
> how far a key was pressed down.
>
> Jon
>
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From rmswierczek at gmail.com  Sat May 25 17:07:28 2019
From: rmswierczek at gmail.com (Robert Swierczek)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 03:07:28 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix manuals, TMs, etc
In-Reply-To: <20180524010913.GB10344@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20180524010913.GB10344@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <CAAFR5pZU4iUCAWOch6DACt-UN6uT+NgS09F=jde0gBs9z+9y8g@mail.gmail.com>

> I will be mailing the Unix TMs and other papers
> to Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com>
> who said he will scan any one-of-a-kind items
> and make them available to you and TUHS.

After an embarrassingly long time, I have found a few spare cycles to
scan some of the more interesting items from Mel's collection.  Many
of the papers can already be found online, others can be found with
slightly different formatting or missing the abstract.  I will try to
prioritize accordingly:  https://archive.org/details/@swieros

From rminnich at gmail.com  Sun May 26 04:46:59 2019
From: rminnich at gmail.com (ron minnich)
Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 11:46:59 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Old Unix manuals, TMs, etc
In-Reply-To: <CAAFR5pZU4iUCAWOch6DACt-UN6uT+NgS09F=jde0gBs9z+9y8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20180524010913.GB10344@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAFR5pZU4iUCAWOch6DACt-UN6uT+NgS09F=jde0gBs9z+9y8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP6exY+qnfu3wySd9Hs=DSr4QkjNA2-ihy-8rNq1OWiU1TqcVQ@mail.gmail.com>

does anyone have Plauger's "what is a unix" paper

On Sat, May 25, 2019 at 12:17 AM Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I will be mailing the Unix TMs and other papers
> > to Robert Swierczek <rmswierczek at gmail.com>
> > who said he will scan any one-of-a-kind items
> > and make them available to you and TUHS.
>
> After an embarrassingly long time, I have found a few spare cycles to
> scan some of the more interesting items from Mel's collection.  Many
> of the papers can already be found online, others can be found with
> slightly different formatting or missing the abstract.  I will try to
> prioritize accordingly:  https://archive.org/details/@swieros

From david at kdbarto.org  Thu May 30 23:49:05 2019
From: david at kdbarto.org (David)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 06:49:05 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
Message-ID: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>

I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I was just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or industry. As a user and an admin I never used this and, while I thought it was interesting, just figured that the users would sort it out amongst themselves. Which they mostly did.

So, anyone ever use this feature?

	David


From crossd at gmail.com  Fri May 31 00:26:01 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 10:26:01 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W7q=yBGCgZXtd5yGNJ-ggy2Li9-W1aS7whGs9iG6wHOCA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 9:58 AM David <david at kdbarto.org> wrote:

> I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I was
> just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or industry. As a user
> and an admin I never used this and, while I thought it was interesting,
> just figured that the users would sort it out amongst themselves. Which
> they mostly did.
>
> So, anyone ever use this feature?
>

Oh yes. I used them in multiple places; in fact, on a public access Unix
system that I still (!!) am active on (well, not really...grex.org) we use
them; mostly to try and limit the effects of abuse.

Quotas were very useful in time shared and network environments, where you
didn't quite trust all of the users. For example, university networks where
undergrads were given accounts for course work, but could be otherwise
mischievous, and you didn't want them interfering with research happening
on the same system/network.

        - Dan C.
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From rp at servium.ch  Fri May 31 00:27:04 2019
From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 16:27:04 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <CACwAiQkdMa36-sj4X5_SCc4QznOjh3-PxnkK-Dt4EoK6W8Y2xw@mail.gmail.com>

Every university that allowed "general" student access used disk quotas. I
remember 1MB file quota on the system I had access to. And of course we
found all kinds of tricks to get around those quotas (e.g. "giving away"
large files to someone with leftover quota), which is why on many systems
you're not allowed to chown files if you're not root.

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 3:58 PM David <david at kdbarto.org> wrote:

> I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I was
> just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or industry. As a user
> and an admin I never used this and, while I thought it was interesting,
> just figured that the users would sort it out amongst themselves. Which
> they mostly did.
>
> So, anyone ever use this feature?
>
>         David
>
>
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From dds at aueb.gr  Fri May 31 00:23:48 2019
From: dds at aueb.gr (Diomidis Spinellis)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 10:23:48 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <f7d3a1e3-488b-6abf-a041-ad682b82bb16@aueb.gr>

As a university student in the 1980s we had a cluster of Sun 3/50s using 
a Gould computer as a file server over NFS.  The system administrators 
had quotas enabled (5MB per student) to prevent students gobbling up 
disk space.

Here's an email I received when I used more disk space than what was 
allowed.

> From: Tim [...] <[...]@doc.ic.ac.uk>
> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 90 10:54:18 GMT
> X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.0.3 12/22/89)
> To: zmact61 at doc.ic.ac.uk
> Subject: quota
> Message-ID:  <9002131054.aa20550 at tgould.doc.ic.ac.uk>
> Status: ORr
> 
> D Spinellis
> 
> I see you have taken advantage of a small admin. oversight when
> no quotas were set for your class.
> 
> On Friday 16th I shall be setting your disk quota to 5Mb, and your 
> inode quota to 500.   Please take appropriate action.
> 
> Disk quotas for (no account) (uid 1461):
> Filesystem     usage  quota  limit    timeleft  files  quota  limit    timeleft
> /home/gould/teach
>                18545  20000  21000               1602   1700   1750            
> /home/gould/staff
>                    0    200    250                  0     40     50      


Diomidis

On 30-May-19 16:49, David wrote:
> I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I was just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or industry. As a user and an admin I never used this and, while I thought it was interesting, just figured that the users would sort it out amongst themselves. Which they mostly did.
> 
> So, anyone ever use this feature?
> 
> 	David
> 
> 

From robert at timetraveller.org  Fri May 31 00:29:01 2019
From: robert at timetraveller.org (Robert Brockway)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 00:29:01 +1000 (AEST)
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1905310023530.32190@mira.opentrend.net>

On Thu, 30 May 2019, David wrote:

> I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I was 
> just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or industry. As a 
> user and an admin I never used this and, while I thought it was 
> interesting, just figured that the users would sort it out amongst 
> themselves. Which they mostly did.
>
> So, anyone ever use this feature?

As an undergrad in the 90s I was most definitely subject to quotas on 
university systems.  I believe Unix filesystem quotas have been widely 
used.

FWIW I have quotas enabled on my home fileserver (without enforcement) 
just so I can see user utilisation at a glance.

Cheers,

Rob

From tytso at mit.edu  Fri May 31 00:34:14 2019
From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Ts'o)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 10:34:14 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <20190530143414.GF2751@mit.edu>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 06:49:05AM -0700, David wrote:
> I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I
> was just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or
> industry. As a user and an admin I never used this and, while I
> thought it was interesting, just figured that the users would sort
> it out amongst themselves. Which they mostly did.
> 
> So, anyone ever use this feature?

Back when MIT Project Athena was using Vax/750's as time sharing
machines (before the advent of the MicroVax II workstations and AFS),
students were assigned to a Vax 750, and were given a quota of I think
a megabyte, at least initially.  It could be increased by applying to
the user accounts office.  Given that there were roughly 4,000
undergraduates sharing 5 or 6 Vax/750's, it was somewhat understandable...

	       	       	      		    - Ted

From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Fri May 31 00:48:50 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 10:48:50 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <20190530143414.GF2751@mit.edu>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
 <20190530143414.GF2751@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp8hNF7A1yc7TrL56TRWyvbki+9eqgMWCjUdHZVdXsF1GA@mail.gmail.com>

We used them in an AT&T Labs research environment. The intent was less to
prevent users from selfishly grabbing (then semi-precious) disk space but
to prevent accidents from adversely affecting the user community at large.
If you *knew* you were going to need honking amounts of disk, the sysadmins
would raise the quota (probably on a partition dedicated to such
activities).

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:40 AM Theodore Ts'o <tytso at mit.edu> wrote:

> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 06:49:05AM -0700, David wrote:
> > I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I
> > was just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or
> > industry. As a user and an admin I never used this and, while I
> > thought it was interesting, just figured that the users would sort
> > it out amongst themselves. Which they mostly did.
> >
> > So, anyone ever use this feature?
>
> Back when MIT Project Athena was using Vax/750's as time sharing
> machines (before the advent of the MicroVax II workstations and AFS),
> students were assigned to a Vax 750, and were given a quota of I think
> a megabyte, at least initially.  It could be increased by applying to
> the user accounts office.  Given that there were roughly 4,000
> undergraduates sharing 5 or 6 Vax/750's, it was somewhat understandable...
>
>                                             - Ted
>
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From velocityboy at gmail.com  Fri May 31 00:57:18 2019
From: velocityboy at gmail.com (Jim Geist)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 10:57:18 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <CAC0cEp8hNF7A1yc7TrL56TRWyvbki+9eqgMWCjUdHZVdXsF1GA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
 <20190530143414.GF2751@mit.edu>
 <CAC0cEp8hNF7A1yc7TrL56TRWyvbki+9eqgMWCjUdHZVdXsF1GA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJohCK+V-zY_8dJBhZagCtUesCUTgCQB5Y6Se+cwpPb4mtiiwA@mail.gmail.com>

I have an account on a school system that uses them.

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:49 AM John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com>
wrote:

> We used them in an AT&T Labs research environment. The intent was less to
> prevent users from selfishly grabbing (then semi-precious) disk space but
> to prevent accidents from adversely affecting the user community at large.
> If you *knew* you were going to need honking amounts of disk, the
> sysadmins would raise the quota (probably on a partition dedicated to such
> activities).
>
> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 10:40 AM Theodore Ts'o <tytso at mit.edu> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 06:49:05AM -0700, David wrote:
>> > I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I
>> > was just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or
>> > industry. As a user and an admin I never used this and, while I
>> > thought it was interesting, just figured that the users would sort
>> > it out amongst themselves. Which they mostly did.
>> >
>> > So, anyone ever use this feature?
>>
>> Back when MIT Project Athena was using Vax/750's as time sharing
>> machines (before the advent of the MicroVax II workstations and AFS),
>> students were assigned to a Vax 750, and were given a quota of I think
>> a megabyte, at least initially.  It could be increased by applying to
>> the user accounts office.  Given that there were roughly 4,000
>> undergraduates sharing 5 or 6 Vax/750's, it was somewhat understandable...
>>
>>                                             - Ted
>>
>
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From andreas.kahari at abc.se  Fri May 31 00:55:10 2019
From: andreas.kahari at abc.se (Andreas Kusalananda =?iso-8859-1?B?S+Ro5HJp?=)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 16:55:10 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <20190530145510.GA58792@eeyore.my.domain>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 06:49:05AM -0700, David wrote:
> I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I was just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or industry. As a user and an admin I never used this and, while I thought it was interesting, just figured that the users would sort it out amongst themselves. Which they mostly did.
> 
> So, anyone ever use this feature?
> 
> 	David

At my current workplace, we use quotas on shared systems (Linux
compute clusters and multi-user interactive login nodes).  When I was
at univeristy (early 1990's), the SunOS and Solaris systems at the
department had the home directories mounted over NFS, and there were
quotas in effect on the file server.

On VM systems that I set up privately, where /home is not on a separate
partition, I use quotas for my own account (because sometimes I want to
use a really tiny disk, and limiting the size of /home is easier with
quotas than through partitioning off the correct size on the first try).

I have access to a shared non-work related OpenBSD and Linux system
which does *not* use quotas, and it makes me slightly nervous because
I don't actually know how much disk space I'm *allowed* to use without
being told off by a human operator.  It would have been better if they
had had quotas enabled and then made it easy to ask for more space
thourgh a simple email to the admins.

-- 
Kusalananda
Sweden

From katolaz at freaknet.org  Fri May 31 01:00:42 2019
From: katolaz at freaknet.org (KatolaZ)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 17:00:42 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <20190530150018.fzz5c63cbxztywvd@katolaz.homeunix.net>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 06:49:05AM -0700, David wrote:
> I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I was just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or industry. As a user and an admin I never used this and, while I thought it was interesting, just figured that the users would sort it out amongst themselves. Which they mostly did.
> 
> So, anyone ever use this feature?
> 

As others have said already, disk (or better, filesystem) quotas have
been used widely in any environment with more than a few users. I
remember a 5MB quota at uni when I was an undergrad, and I definitely
remember when it was increased to 10MB :)

Filesystem quotas are currently used extensively in large computing
facilities (clusters and distributed computing systems of different
sort), and in virtually all pubnix systems (we have been using it for
"medialab" at freaknet for more than 20 years now...).

Over the years I have learnt that if unix has something that I think
is useless, then almost surely I have not bumped into the use case,
and the use case is normally important enough to explain why that
feature was made part of unix ;)

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[     "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[       @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[     @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
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From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri May 31 02:04:49 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 12:04:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
Message-ID: <20190530160449.2444518C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: KatolaZ

    > I remember a 5MB quota at uni when I was an undergrad, and I definitely
    > remember when it was increased to 10MB :)

Light your cigar with disk blocks!

When I was in high school, I had an account on the school's computer, a
PDP-11/20 running RSTS, with a single RF11 disk (well, technically, an RS11
drive on an RF11 controller). For those whose jaw didn't bounce off the floor,
reading that, the RS11 was a fixed-head disk with a total capacity of 512KB
(1024 512-byte blocks).

IIRC, my disk quota was 5 blocks. :-)

	Noel

From katolaz at freaknet.org  Fri May 31 02:48:21 2019
From: katolaz at freaknet.org (KatolaZ)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 18:48:21 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <20190530160449.2444518C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190530160449.2444518C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20190530164821.qzbgduu27ktxmkpa@katolaz.homeunix.net>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04:49PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: KatolaZ
> 
>     > I remember a 5MB quota at uni when I was an undergrad, and I definitely
>     > remember when it was increased to 10MB :)
> 
> Light your cigar with disk blocks!
> 
> When I was in high school, I had an account on the school's computer, a
> PDP-11/20 running RSTS, with a single RF11 disk (well, technically, an RS11
> drive on an RF11 controller). For those whose jaw didn't bounce off the floor,
> reading that, the RS11 was a fixed-head disk with a total capacity of 512KB
> (1024 512-byte blocks).
> 
> IIRC, my disk quota was 5 blocks. :-)

Yep, I am not that "experienced" ;P

HND

-- 
[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]  
[     "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[       @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[     @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri May 31 03:28:29 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 11:28:29 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <5f3efe76-a47e-8782-814a-1f91ba95a785@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 5/30/19 7:49 AM, David wrote:
> So, anyone ever use this feature?

Yes.  I have been on both sides of disk / file system quota, 
occasionally at the same time.

I remember them being applied when I was in school.

I applied them to mail servers I administered (50 MB quota).

I think I even used a combination of soft (50 MB) and hard (100 MB) 
quotas.  I really liked the soft/hard pair because someone could go over 
their quota for up to 7 days (?) until they hit the hard quota.  This 
gave some buffer for busy weekends and vacation time.

I also applied a quota to myself (and the other admins) specifically so 
that we couldn't accidentally fill the file system and DoS our users.  I 
think I gave us a 1 or 2 GB quota.  I do remember raising it once or 
twice for specific things.  It did save our collected back sides 
multiple times too.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri May 31 03:42:49 2019
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 13:42:49 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <20190530164821.qzbgduu27ktxmkpa@katolaz.homeunix.net>
References: <20190530160449.2444518C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <20190530164821.qzbgduu27ktxmkpa@katolaz.homeunix.net>
Message-ID: <015701d5170f$19b44310$4d1cc930$@ronnatalie.com>

Hopkins had a 11/45 system with several RK05's (2.4M).   One was / and /usr,
one was /sys1 (one set of users)  and the other /sys2 (the other users).
My initial quota for class was 8 blocks and that went up to 30 when I went
on staff there.

We also had two additional RK05 drives and I thought I was in fat city when
I invested $65 in my own cartridge for that.
Before that, I had spent a few bucks on DecTapes.

The system swapped on an RF11 disk (1024 blocks).

> -----Original Message-----
> From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of KatolaZ
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2019 12:48 PM
> To: tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
> 
> On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 12:04:49PM -0400, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> >     > From: KatolaZ
> >
> >     > I remember a 5MB quota at uni when I was an undergrad, and I
> definitely
> >     > remember when it was increased to 10MB :)
> >
> > Light your cigar with disk blocks!
> >
> > When I was in high school, I had an account on the school's computer,
> > a
> > PDP-11/20 running RSTS, with a single RF11 disk (well, technically, an
> > RS11 drive on an RF11 controller). For those whose jaw didn't bounce
> > off the floor, reading that, the RS11 was a fixed-head disk with a
> > total capacity of 512KB
> > (1024 512-byte blocks).
> >
> > IIRC, my disk quota was 5 blocks. :-)
> 
> Yep, I am not that "experienced" ;P
> 
> HND
> 
> --
> [ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]
> [     "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
> [       @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
> [     @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ]
> [ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


From michael at kjorling.se  Fri May 31 05:19:26 2019
From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 19:19:26 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <20190530191926.6n4uvebwill77qzp@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>

On 30 May 2019 06:49 -0700, from david at kdbarto.org (David):
> I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I
> was just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or
> industry. As a user and an admin I never used this and, while I
> thought it was interesting, just figured that the users would sort
> it out amongst themselves. Which they mostly did.
> 
> So, anyone ever use this feature?

Don't forget probably every ISP under the sun.

My first Internet account in 1995 (or possibly 1996) came with *nix
shell access (please don't ask me what variant; I used it mostly to
run pine, and occasionally pico, and it was dial-up which was charged
per minute by the phone company) and a 4 MB quota, which you could pay
to have increased. That quota covered everything in your $HOME; as I
recall, including e-mail, and definitely including ~/public_html.

These days, it seems that with the exception of _really_ cheap
accounts, web host quotas are big enough that they for all intents and
purposes might as well not be there, even with today's bloated
content. Back then, even 4 MB for everything felt on the tight side,
and you certainly had to think about what you put there.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri May 31 06:42:30 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 14:42:30 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrY_fF2UfEVmWUAPeeQ67Ln420qurmNwKc5vRb7jGYgxw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 7:58 AM David <david at kdbarto.org> wrote:

> I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I was
> just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or industry. As a user
> and an admin I never used this and, while I thought it was interesting,
> just figured that the users would sort it out amongst themselves. Which
> they mostly did.

So, anyone ever use this feature?


The PDP-11 running RSTS/E 7.2 we had in high school had a quota of 100
blocks. It was almost enough to store three BASIC programs...

At college, our VAX running 4.3BSD used the quota system, but it was weird
in ways I can't recall now.... Maybe I couldn't logout when I was over
quota, but I worked around that with telnet...

Warner
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From ggm at algebras.org  Fri May 31 08:23:28 2019
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 08:23:28 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrY_fF2UfEVmWUAPeeQ67Ln420qurmNwKc5vRb7jGYgxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
 <CANCZdfrY_fF2UfEVmWUAPeeQ67Ln420qurmNwKc5vRb7jGYgxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn0RJ4pjh6XXsmeg9hkNebMvhE3=6ozRj1a=MCs_oXpOhQ@mail.gmail.com>

Unless it's been replaced, Robert Elz. Melbourne Uni wrote this. He's
still puttering along in Southern Thailand, doing his thing. (they had
the Australian dictionary of Aboriginal words and every host at
Melbourne Uni started MU hence munnari.oz.au) - The same operations
unit wrote one of the  first Apple File System codebases for BSD too.

Robert had a bizarre theory about body heat. He wore a jersey in
Hawaii mid-summer on the principle the insulation kept the external
heat OUT.

He also is a cricket tragic. B&W tv by the console, in season, you had
to stop talking while the bowler was running and could engage during
the advert breaks.

(and yes, I used them in uni systems admin to constrain the wild
behaviours of the userbase. Imagine letting all those pristine ones
and zeros be .. tainted by data)

-G

From beebe at math.utah.edu  Fri May 31 10:21:02 2019
From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 18:21:02 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
Message-ID: <CMM.0.95.0.1559262062.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>

Several list members report having used, or suffered under, filesystem
quotas.

At the University Utah, in the College of Science, and later, the
Department of Mathematics, we have always had an opposing view:

	Disk quotas are magic meaningless numbers imposed by some bozo
	ignorant system administrator in order to prevent users from
	getting their work done.

Thus, in my 41 years of systems management at Utah, we have not had a
SINGLE SYSTEM with user disk quotas enabled.

We have run PDP-11s with RT-11, RSX, and RSTS, PDP-10s with TOPS-20,
VAXes with VMS and BSD Unix, an Ardent Titan, a Stardent, a Cray
EL/94, and hundreds of Unix workstations from Apple, DEC, Dell, HP,
IBM, NeXT, SGI, and Sun with numerous CPU families (Alpha, Arm, MC68K,
SPARC, MIPS, NS 88000, PowerPC, x86, x86_64, and maybe others that I
forget at the moment).

For the last 15+ years, our central fileservers have run ZFS on
Solaris 10 (SPARC, then on Intel x86_64), and for the last 17 months,
on GNU/Linux CentOS 7.

Each ZFS dataset gets its space from a large shared pool of disks, and
each dataset has a quota: thus, space CAN fill up in a given dataset,
so that some users might experience a disk-full situation.  In
practice, that rarely happens, because a cron job runs every 20
minutes, looking for datasets that are nearly full, and giving them a
few extra GB if needed.  Affected users in a average of 10 minutes or
so will no longer see disk-full problems.  If we see serious imbalance
in the sizes of previously similar-sized datasets, we manually move
directory trees between datasets to achieve a reasonable balance, and
reset the dataset quotas.

We make nightly ZFS snapshots (hourly for user home directories), and
send the nightlies to an off-campus server in a large datacenter, and
we write nightly filesystem backs to a tape robot. The tape technology
generations have evolved through 9-track, QIC, 4mm DAT, 8mm DAT, DLT,
LTO-4, LTO-6, and perhaps soon, LTO-8.

Our main fileserver talks through a live SAN FibreChannel mirror to
independent storage arrays in two different buildings.

Thus, we always have two live copies of all data, and third far-away
live copy that is no more than 24 hours old.

Yes, we do see runaway output files from time to time, and an
occasional student (among currently more than 17,000 accounts) who
uses an unreasonable amount of space.  In such cases, we deal with the
job, or user, involved, and get space freed up; other users remain
largely remain unaware of the temporary space crisis.

The result of our no-quotas policy is that few of our users have ever
seen a disk-full condition; they just get on with their work, as they,
and we, expect them to do.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                    FAX: +1 801 581 4148                  -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri May 31 10:37:34 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 17:37:34 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.95.0.1559262062.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
References: <CMM.0.95.0.1559262062.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <20190531003734.GA12897@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, May 30, 2019 at 06:21:02PM -0600, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
> Several list members report having used, or suffered under, filesystem
> quotas.
> 
> At the University Utah, in the College of Science, and later, the
> Department of Mathematics, we have always had an opposing view:
> 
> 	Disk quotas are magic meaningless numbers imposed by some bozo
> 	ignorant system administrator in order to prevent users from
> 	getting their work done.
> 
> Thus, in my 41 years of systems management at Utah, we have not had a
> SINGLE SYSTEM with user disk quotas enabled.

I can see both sides of this, but man, do I love the attitude of just
get out of their way and let them do their work.  I get the reasons 
that other people did disk quotas, it's reasonable, but I like Nelson's
approach better.

From krewat at kilonet.net  Fri May 31 10:42:33 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 20:42:33 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.95.0.1559262062.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
References: <CMM.0.95.0.1559262062.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <8c0e17fb-41e3-753c-9678-04e410825dce@kilonet.net>

On 5/30/2019 8:21 PM, Nelson H. F. Beebe wrote:
> Several list members report having used, or suffered under, filesystem
> quotas.
>
> At the University Utah, in the College of Science, and later, the
> Department of Mathematics, we have always had an opposing view:
>
> 	Disk quotas are magic meaningless numbers imposed by some bozo
> 	ignorant system administrator in order to prevent users from
> 	getting their work done.

You've never had people like me on your systems ;) - But yeah...

> For the last 15+ years, our central fileservers have run ZFS on
> Solaris 10 (SPARC, then on Intel x86_64), and for the last 17 months,
> on GNU/Linux CentOS 7.
>
I do the same with ZFS - limit the individual filesystems with "zfs set 
quota=xxx" so the entire pool can't be filled. I assign a zfs filesystem 
to an individual user in /export/home and when they need more, they let 
me know. Various monitoring scripts tell me when a filesystem is 
approaching 80%, and I either just expand it on my own because of the 
user's usage, or let them know they are approaching the limit.

Same thing with Netbackup Basic Disk pools in a common ZFS pool. I can 
adjust them as needed, and Netbackup sees the change almost immediately.

At home, I did this with my kids ;) - Samba and zfs quota on the 
filesystem let them know how much room they had.

art k.

PS: I'm starting to move to FreeBSD and ZFS for VMware datastores, the 
performance is outstanding over iSCSI on 10Gbe - (which Solaris 11's 
COMSTAR is not apparently very good at especially with small block 
sizes). I have yet to play with Linux and ZFS but would appreciate to 
hear (privately, if it's not appropriate for the list) your experiences 
with it.



From alan at alanlee.org  Fri May 31 11:36:36 2019
From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org)
Date: Thu, 30 May 2019 21:36:36 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
References: <975B93B6-AD7C-41B5-A14D-2DE4FEFAD3A6@kdbarto.org>
Message-ID: <3ab907e0bdf1be98c1c628ce3957b415@alanlee.org>


My story is similar to most others here.  University of Arkansas in the 
early 90s enabled user disk quotas on the public access UNIX system - a 
SPARCserver 2000 with 10 CPUs and gobs of disk.  Each quota limit was 
far higher than (total disk space) / (# user accounts).  But each of the 
17K students at the time was automatically provisioned an account during 
registration.  So it became a bit necessary to impose a limit - even if 
one 98% of users would never come close to.

The dedicated college of engineering UNIX system was also a similarly 
equipped SPARCserver 2000 and did not enforce any quotas.  Unless the 
sys-admin yelling in the hallway at the povray guy eating 100% x 10 CPUs 
was technically a throttle / quota system.  He was efficient too.  
Zero'd in on the lab and workstation number by IP address and would be 
over your shoulder in less than 10K ms if you were acting a fool!

-Alan



On 2019-05-30 09:49, David wrote:
> I think it was BSD 4.1 that added quotas to the disk system, and I was
> just wondering if anyone ever used them, in academia or industry. As a
> user and an admin I never used this and, while I thought it was
> interesting, just figured that the users would sort it out amongst
> themselves. Which they mostly did.
> 
> So, anyone ever use this feature?
> 
> 	David

From gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk  Fri May 31 17:16:55 2019
From: gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk (George Ross)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 08:16:55 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Quotas - did anyone ever use them?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 30 May 2019 16:27:04 +0200."
 <CACwAiQkdMa36-sj4X5_SCc4QznOjh3-PxnkK-Dt4EoK6W8Y2xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201905310716.x4V7GtsJ011721@maysl7.inf.ed.ac.uk>

>  And of course we
> found all kinds of tricks to get around those quotas (e.g. "giving away"
> large files to someone with leftover quota), which is why on many systems
> you're not allowed to chown files if you're not root.

When I took over running a labful of SunOS machines that were used by our 
CS students, one of the first thing I did was turn off a few things in the 
system call vector for UIDs higher than a "staff" cutoff.  That included 
things like chown, chmod and setting the umask.  As well as making it 
harder for them to share solutions, it also had the advantage of making 
other systems more tempting targets...
-- 
George D M Ross MSc PhD CEng MBCS CITP
University of Edinburgh, School of Informatics,
Appleton Tower, 11 Crichton Street, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH8 9LE
Mail: gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk   Voice: 0131 650 5147 
PGP: 1024D/AD758CC5  B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A  426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.



From steve at quintile.net  Fri May 31 20:56:39 2019
From: steve at quintile.net (Steve Simon)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 11:56:39 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] anyone used the fair share shedular?
Message-ID: <FF815891-09C3-40C1-9259-D4227C55CA2C@quintile.net>

i used the fair share schedular whilst a sysadmin of a small cray at UNSW. being an expensive machine the various departments who paid for it wanted, well, their fair share.

in a different job i had a cron job that restricted Sybase backend engines to a subset of the cpus on an big SGI box during peak hours, at night sybase had free reign of all cpus.

anyone did anything similar?

-Steve




