From mjcrehan at earthlink.net  Wed Dec  1 01:59:21 1999
From: mjcrehan at earthlink.net (Martin Crehan)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:59:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Salon.com article on John Lions book
Message-ID: <199911301559.HAA18132@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

The site Salon.com has an article:
http://www.Salon1999.com/tech/feature/1999/11/30/lions/index.html
on John Lions' book about Sixth Edition Unix, written by from a non-computer
geek's viewpoint.

Martin Crehan



From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Thu Dec  9 07:09:16 1999
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:09:16 -0800
Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping
In-Reply-To: <199911292207.OAA02606@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <13505889943.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[I need to change the bootstrap]

Okay, someone needs to explain what I should change then, I don't have
any docs about MSCP.

[I don't know how to use my mailer]

Yes, I sent this twice. ^_^
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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Dec  9 14:11:55 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:11:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping
Message-ID: <199912090411.UAA06521@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com>
> [I need to change the bootstrap]
> 
> Okay, someone needs to explain what I should change then, I don't have
> any docs about MSCP.
> 
> [I don't know how to use my mailer]
> 
> Yes, I sent this twice. ^_^

	I received 3 copies :)

	No docs for/about MSCP are required to install the bootblock.  That
	would only be needed if you wanted to write a bootblock and/or
	driver.

	The documentation you do want to read is the 'disklabel(8)' manpage
	and in particular the "-B" option.

			disklabel -B ra0

	should do what you want.  You can also do it with a 'dd':

	You will need to be at a single user prompt since writes to raw
	disks for which the cooked counterpart is mounted are prohibited
	if the secure level of the system is greater than 0:

			dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/dev/rra0a

	If, as I seem to recall, you can't boot the disk (image/whatever)
	because the wrong bootblock is present you will have to use the
	'boot' program from a "bootable tape".   This may entail using
	a "toggle in" tape boot (described in the 2.11 setup/installation
	documentation in fairly good detail).   At the boot prompt (':')
	after booting from tape:

			: ra(0,0)unix
			   .... kernel should load, print out the usual
			   .... messages about memory size, etc
			# disklabel -B ra0  (or 'dd ...')

	In essence you're going thru the last part of system installation,
	you don't need to 'mkfs', 'restor', etc because the data is already
	present on the disk.  Just skip all that and use the tape 'boot'
	program to load the kernel and then write the proper bootblock to
	disk.

	Steven


From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Fri Dec 10 07:18:27 1999
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:18:27 -0800
Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping
Message-ID: <13506153760.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>


[Snip instructions for installing a bootstrap]

No, I got the installation of the bootstrap just fine.  I was told that
the bootstrap for MSCP disks uses a bug in the UDA50 that some 3rd party
controllers don't exhibit.  (In my case, I have a Viking UDT SCSI controller)

I was saying I needed to know where/how to change the bootstrap (modify the
bootstrap, not use a different one) so that it will work.

I got a pointer at some 3BSD stuff on Minnie, but that code used a boot ROM on
the VAX 750 to get it's job done.

I don't have any MSCP books so I don't know where or how to change the
bootstrap to make it work on my machine.

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Fri Dec 10 10:50:12 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:50:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping
Message-ID: <199912100050.QAA18487@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com>
> I was saying I needed to know where/how to change the bootstrap (modify the
> bootstrap, not use a different one) so that it will work.

	Hmmm, ok - that wasn't clear.   It read as if the documentation was
	needed to install a new/different bootblock.

> I got a pointer at some 3BSD stuff on Minnie, but that code used a boot ROM on
> the VAX 750 to get it's job done.

	Yep - same in 4BSD too, I remember thinking at one time "ah, I'll
	just use the 4BSD bootcode as a guide" only to find out it was
	calling into the ROMs.

> I don't have any MSCP books so I don't know where or how to change the
> bootstrap to make it work on my machine.

	IF the bug is what has been suspected so far then presenting a 
	vector to the controller during the 4 step init process is what
	needs to be done.  

	Looking at the standalone MSCP driver (/sys/pdpstand/ra.c) which has
	the logic to specify a vector even though interrupts are not use the 
	logic is:

	if (rainit[ctlr] == 0) {
again:		raaddr->raip = 0;
		if 	(ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP1, 1))
			goto again;
		raaddr->rasa = RA_ERR | (0154/4);
		if	(ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP2, 2))
			goto again;
		iomapadr(&racom->ra_ca.ca_ringbase, &bae, &lo16);
		raaddr->rasa = lo16;
		if	(ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP3, 3))
			goto again;
		raaddr->rasa = bae;
		if	(ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP4, 4))
			goto again;
		raaddr->rasa = RA_GO;
		if (racmd(M_OP_STCON, io) < 0) {
			printf("%s STCON err\n", devname(io));
			return(-1);
		}
		rainit[ctlr] = 1;
	}

	Thus it is only done on 'first open'.

	It is in step 1 that the vector divided by 4 needs to be "OR"'d into
	the work presented to the controller.

	The ra boot block code (/sys/mdec/rauboot.s) has a loop:

/
/ RA initialize controller
/
	mov	$RASTEP1,r0
	mov	raip,r1
	clr	(r1)+			/ go through controller init seq.
	mov	$icons,r2
1:
	bit	r0,(r1)
	beq	1b
---->>>>
	mov	(r2)+,(r1)
	asl	r0
	bpl	1b
	mov	$ra+RARSPREF,*$ra+RARSPL / set controller characteristics
	mov	$ra+RACMDREF,*$ra+RACMDL
	mov	$RASTCON,r0
	jsr	pc,racmd
	mov	unit,*$ra+RAUNIT	/ bring boot unit online
	mov	$RAONLIN,r0
	jsr	pc,racmd
		...




	I suspect that the loop at ---->>> needs to be modified to do something
	special for step 1.

	Steve


From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sun Dec 12 21:10:32 1999
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:10:32 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Temporary Mail List Suspension
Message-ID: <199912121110.WAA40763@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

[ apologies to those who receive this e-mail multiple times ]

This e-mail is being sent to you via a mailing list run on the machine
minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. I've been informed that our entire network is
going to be shut down from Friday 24 December until Monday 3 January 2000.

In other words, all services on Minnie (web, ftp, CGI scripts, this mailing
list) will be temporarily unavailable during this period. Minnie, as always,
will be sitting here under my desk, waiting for someone to talk to her. So
as soon as the routers come back up, Minnie will reappear.

I'll take this opportunity to wish everybody a happy festive season; take it
safe on the roads, don't go anywhere near the CBD of Sydney on New Year's Eve,
and we'll catch you again in 2000, assuming your Microsloth Windoze box isn't
infected with gazillions of viruses :-)

Cheers all,

	Warren Toomey	wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au


From arno at usn.nl  Mon Dec 13 19:18:14 1999
From: arno at usn.nl (Arno Griffioen)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:18:14 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912130918.KAA01758@lost.usn.nl>

OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
along the way.

No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)

What are my options to get 2.11BSD running on this beast? 

I have a uVAX 3600 running NetBSD, so I could possibly dump a raw
filesystem image onto one of the RA92's and perhaps boot the 11/94
off of it. Is this feasible? I haven't looked into it yet..

I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I 
didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
or installing UNIX from it..

I don't have any other UNIBUS cards, so I can't plug my TK70 into
the 11/94..

Any thoughts on the subject are welcome..

							Bye, Arno.

-- 
PSINetworks Europe           Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34               Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands |   *  Musical Interlude  *      | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------

 We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
 With a Cast-Iron fist!                  (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Dec 14 05:35:35 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:35:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912131935.LAA18041@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Arno Griffioen <arno at usn.nl>
> 
> OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked


	Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives!   Condolences
	on the tape drive being junked.

> No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)

	In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
	I do not know of any in the Netherlands.  If at all possible get
	a DELUA insetad  - less power hungry and fewer bugs.

> What are my options to get 2.11BSD running on this beast? 
> 
> I have a uVAX 3600 running NetBSD, so I could possibly dump a raw
> filesystem image onto one of the RA92's and perhaps boot the 11/94
> off of it. Is this feasible? I haven't looked into it yet..

	Yes, it should be possible.  You will need to run one of the emulators
	(either Bob Supnik's or Willi Begemot's "P11").  The tricky part
	will be in the geometry/size of the disk image.  The emulators
	do not know about MSCP drives so you will have to go thru the bootstrap
	process using an SMD ('xp' driver) drive and pretend you have a 
	RP06 or 7.  Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock.  
	DD that image to an  RA92 and hoo that up to the /94.
	

	The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not
	be exactly right for the last partition.  Experimenting with the
	standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may
	be needed.  If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a 
	rebuild of the freelist will be needed.

	Experimentation - I think it'd take a few tries to get it right ;)

> I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I 
> didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
> or installing UNIX from it..

	No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program.   At 256kb
	it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
	a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Tue Dec 14 05:59:34 1999
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:59:34 -0500
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <991213145934.21e008e3@trailing-edge.com>

>> I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I 
>> didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
>> or installing UNIX from it..

>	No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program.   At 256kb
>	it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
>	a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.

Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated
TU58's.  Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's".

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Dec 14 06:56:53 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:56:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912132056.MAA18516@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
> 
> Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated
> TU58's.  Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's".

	That wasn't too bad.  You should try Das Rheingold on 78's :)

	Steve

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From arno at usn.nl  Tue Dec 14 17:28:16 1999
From: arno at usn.nl (Arno Griffioen)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:28:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912131935.LAA18041@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Dec 13, 1999 11:35:35 am"
Message-ID: <199912140728.IAA07390@lost.usn.nl>

> > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
> 
> 
> 	Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives!   Condolences
> 	on the tape drive being junked.

The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in 
this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..

Pity I have little UNIBUS stuff.. Most of my other DEC hardware is QBUS based,
otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller
I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive.

The machine itself seems to work fine (and seems to be pretty much 'lodaded').
Runs RSX-11 now (at least a partial setup as I wasn't able to get all drives)

> > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
> 
> 	In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
> 	I do not know of any in the Netherlands.  If at all possible get
> 	a DELUA insetad  - less power hungry and fewer bugs.

Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That
should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's
just 9600)

> 	RP06 or 7.  Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock.  
> 	DD that image to an  RA92 and hoo that up to the /94.

Worth a shot..

> 	The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not
> 	be exactly right for the last partition.  Experimenting with the
> 	standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may
> 	be needed.  If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a 
> 	rebuild of the freelist will be needed.

Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to 
run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly)

> 	No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program.   At 256kb
> 	it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
> 	a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.

OK. Got that.

Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or 
a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..

I have little or no 9-track reel tape stuff :-)

Thanx for the help!

							Bye, Arno.

-- 
PSINetworks Europe           Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34               Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands |   *  Musical Interlude  *      | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------

 We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
 With a Cast-Iron fist!                  (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Dec 15 07:19:27 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:19:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912142119.NAA06698@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From arno at usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in 

	Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place.  Nice.  Having the
	"toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too.

> this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
> RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..

	Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe)

> otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller
> I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive.

	As I was reminded a short time ago - don't put a Qbus board into a
	Unibus machine (or the other way around) :-)

> Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That
> should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's
> just 9600)

	SL/IP yes but 2.11 predates PPP and I am not sure there is room in
	the kernel/networking for PPP (which is a much more complex protocol).

	I've run SL/IP just fine - and if you have the (fairly) recent updates
	to enable hardware flowcontrol you can run considerably faster than
	9600 and not worry about dropped characters or truncated packets.

> Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to 
> run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly)

	Ah, yes indeed!  As long as the kernel's idea of the drive size
	is less than what the actual disk image is then you should not have
	any problems - i.e. if you put an RA60 sized image on an RA92 it 
	should work (at least well enough to configure the 2nd drive correctly).
	Obviously the other way around would not work ;)

> Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or 
> a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..

	A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
	the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly).  I
	do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though.

	An inexpensive TS05 would be a real nice thing to have about now ;)

	Steve

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Wed Dec 15 07:55:41 1999
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:55:41 -0500
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <991214165541.246000ac@trailing-edge.com>

>> From arno at usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
>> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in 

>	Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place.  Nice.  Having the
>	"toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too.

As long as you've updated to the Y2K-compliant KDJ11-E firmware, that is.

The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it
will promptly wrap back around to 1990.  You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset'
(or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date,
but at power on it'll reset back to 1990.

See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering
code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94
firmware.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927



From arno at usn.nl  Thu Dec 16 19:42:34 1999
From: arno at usn.nl (Arno Griffioen)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:42:34 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <991214165541.246000ac@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Dec 14, 1999  4:55:41 pm"
Message-ID: <199912160942.KAA15079@lost.usn.nl>

> The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it
> will promptly wrap back around to 1990.  You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset'
> (or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date,
> but at power on it'll reset back to 1990.

No prob.. If I get a SLIP link up and running I'll just suck down the right
date from an NTP server on my net which is synchronized to a radio clock.

Heck, I could just hook up a clock receiver to the machine directly! 

I hardly ever bother to set hardware clocks in my machines anymore. The
batteries in my VAX for the clock and stuff ran out quite a while ago, but 
no problem either..

> See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering
> code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94
> firmware.

Any idea about version numbers I could check? This machine was used until 
pretty recently in a production environment and maintained pretty 
well on the hardware/firmware level. I don't think it was decomissioned
because of Y2K, but because they were told that they could provide a 'better' 
service with a Micro$oft solution. 

Last thing I heard is that the new solution is sorta falling apart all over
the place.. Not surprising to me, but they're not getting this machine back! :-)

							Bye, Arno.

-- 
PSINetworks Europe           Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34               Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands |   *  Musical Interlude  *      | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------

 We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
 With a Cast-Iron fist!                  (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sat Dec 18 02:10:25 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:10:25 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912131935.LAA18041@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217170736.14918B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> > From: Arno Griffioen <arno at usn.nl>
> > 
> > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
> 
> 
> 	Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives!   Condolences
> 	on the tape drive being junked.

Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)

> > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
> 
> 	In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
> 	I do not know of any in the Netherlands.  If at all possible get
> 	a DELUA insetad  - less power hungry and fewer bugs.

Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
DEUNAs lying around).

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sat Dec 18 02:30:33 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:30:33 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912142119.NAA06698@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217172822.14918E-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> Hi -
> 
> > From arno at usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
> > this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
> > RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
> 
> 	Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe)

RA82: 622 MB
RA92: 1.2GB

All with reservations about my memory going bad... :-)

> > Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or 
> > a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
> 
> 	A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> 	the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly).  I
> 	do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though.

TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Dec 18 04:26:03 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:26:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912171826.KAA04099@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> RA82: 622 MB
> RA92: 1.2GB

	That sounds a little small.  AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on 
	the PDP-11

	The RA90 was ~1.2GB:

		:pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:

	and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB:

		:pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:

> > 	A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> 
> TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
> VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.

	Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only?

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Dec 18 04:22:39 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:22:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912171822.KAA04095@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)

	An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less
	noise from what I have seen.

> Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
> faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
> DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
> DEUNAs lying around).

	I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to
	lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA.
	The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the
	DELUA is better than the DEUNA.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sat Dec 18 05:10:31 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:10:31 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912171822.KAA04095@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217200602.16096F-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> Hi -
> 
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
> 
> 	An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less
> 	noise from what I have seen.

Well, I'm in love with Unibus systems... I have an 11/84 at home, and of
course, there is always Magica, which is an 11/70... :-)
(And then we have Knase, which is our 11/70 with 2.11BSD. Unfortunately,
both systems are powered off right now because of cooling problems. :-(

> > Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
> > faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
> > DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
> > DEUNAs lying around).
> 
> 	I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to
> 	lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA.
> 	The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the
> 	DELUA is better than the DEUNA.

I don't think the DEUNA has that bug which riddles the DEQNA.
Also, the DEUNA/DELUA loads some microcode when I start using them, this
is running RSX. That microcode is located on the RSX system. Beats me what
it is for, or anything.
Worse (parhaps) is that the device driver for the DEUNA/DELUA don't work
with any Q-bus models, which means I don't have a driver for Q-bus
machines...

Anybody know anything more about this? I really don't care to dig around
the sources here, and also, I don't have the sources to all components.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sat Dec 18 05:12:45 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:12:45 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912171826.KAA04099@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217201053.16096G-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> Hi -
> 
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > RA82: 622 MB
> > RA92: 1.2GB
> 
> 	That sounds a little small.  AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on 
> 	the PDP-11
> 
> 	The RA90 was ~1.2GB:
> 
> 		:pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
> 
> 	and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB:
> 
> 		:pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:

You got me. :-)

> > > 	A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> > 
> > TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
> > VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
> 
> 	Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only?

Yes, Q-bus only. When the TK70 came out, I guess DEC had decided to stop
development of Unibus peripherials.
I very much doubt they sold that many TUK50, or RUX50 controllers.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



From mjcrehan at earthlink.net  Wed Dec  1 01:59:21 1999
From: mjcrehan at earthlink.net (Martin Crehan)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:59:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Salon.com article on John Lions book
Message-ID: <199911301559.HAA18132@gull.prod.itd.earthlink.net>

The site Salon.com has an article:
http://www.Salon1999.com/tech/feature/1999/11/30/lions/index.html
on John Lions' book about Sixth Edition Unix, written by from a non-computer
geek's viewpoint.

Martin Crehan



From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Thu Dec  9 07:09:16 1999
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 13:09:16 -0800
Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping
In-Reply-To: <199911292207.OAA02606@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <13505889943.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

[I need to change the bootstrap]

Okay, someone needs to explain what I should change then, I don't have
any docs about MSCP.

[I don't know how to use my mailer]

Yes, I sent this twice. ^_^
-------

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Dec  9 14:11:55 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:11:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping
Message-ID: <199912090411.UAA06521@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com>
> [I need to change the bootstrap]
> 
> Okay, someone needs to explain what I should change then, I don't have
> any docs about MSCP.
> 
> [I don't know how to use my mailer]
> 
> Yes, I sent this twice. ^_^

	I received 3 copies :)

	No docs for/about MSCP are required to install the bootblock.  That
	would only be needed if you wanted to write a bootblock and/or
	driver.

	The documentation you do want to read is the 'disklabel(8)' manpage
	and in particular the "-B" option.

			disklabel -B ra0

	should do what you want.  You can also do it with a 'dd':

	You will need to be at a single user prompt since writes to raw
	disks for which the cooked counterpart is mounted are prohibited
	if the secure level of the system is greater than 0:

			dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/dev/rra0a

	If, as I seem to recall, you can't boot the disk (image/whatever)
	because the wrong bootblock is present you will have to use the
	'boot' program from a "bootable tape".   This may entail using
	a "toggle in" tape boot (described in the 2.11 setup/installation
	documentation in fairly good detail).   At the boot prompt (':')
	after booting from tape:

			: ra(0,0)unix
			   .... kernel should load, print out the usual
			   .... messages about memory size, etc
			# disklabel -B ra0  (or 'dd ...')

	In essence you're going thru the last part of system installation,
	you don't need to 'mkfs', 'restor', etc because the data is already
	present on the disk.  Just skip all that and use the tape 'boot'
	program to load the kernel and then write the proper bootblock to
	disk.

	Steven


From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Fri Dec 10 07:18:27 1999
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:18:27 -0800
Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping
Message-ID: <13506153760.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>


[Snip instructions for installing a bootstrap]

No, I got the installation of the bootstrap just fine.  I was told that
the bootstrap for MSCP disks uses a bug in the UDA50 that some 3rd party
controllers don't exhibit.  (In my case, I have a Viking UDT SCSI controller)

I was saying I needed to know where/how to change the bootstrap (modify the
bootstrap, not use a different one) so that it will work.

I got a pointer at some 3BSD stuff on Minnie, but that code used a boot ROM on
the VAX 750 to get it's job done.

I don't have any MSCP books so I don't know where or how to change the
bootstrap to make it work on my machine.

-------

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Fri Dec 10 10:50:12 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:50:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 2.11BSD boot looping
Message-ID: <199912100050.QAA18487@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: "Daniel A. Seagraves" <DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com>
> I was saying I needed to know where/how to change the bootstrap (modify the
> bootstrap, not use a different one) so that it will work.

	Hmmm, ok - that wasn't clear.   It read as if the documentation was
	needed to install a new/different bootblock.

> I got a pointer at some 3BSD stuff on Minnie, but that code used a boot ROM on
> the VAX 750 to get it's job done.

	Yep - same in 4BSD too, I remember thinking at one time "ah, I'll
	just use the 4BSD bootcode as a guide" only to find out it was
	calling into the ROMs.

> I don't have any MSCP books so I don't know where or how to change the
> bootstrap to make it work on my machine.

	IF the bug is what has been suspected so far then presenting a 
	vector to the controller during the 4 step init process is what
	needs to be done.  

	Looking at the standalone MSCP driver (/sys/pdpstand/ra.c) which has
	the logic to specify a vector even though interrupts are not use the 
	logic is:

	if (rainit[ctlr] == 0) {
again:		raaddr->raip = 0;
		if 	(ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP1, 1))
			goto again;
		raaddr->rasa = RA_ERR | (0154/4);
		if	(ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP2, 2))
			goto again;
		iomapadr(&racom->ra_ca.ca_ringbase, &bae, &lo16);
		raaddr->rasa = lo16;
		if	(ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP3, 3))
			goto again;
		raaddr->rasa = bae;
		if	(ra_step(raaddr, RA_STEP4, 4))
			goto again;
		raaddr->rasa = RA_GO;
		if (racmd(M_OP_STCON, io) < 0) {
			printf("%s STCON err\n", devname(io));
			return(-1);
		}
		rainit[ctlr] = 1;
	}

	Thus it is only done on 'first open'.

	It is in step 1 that the vector divided by 4 needs to be "OR"'d into
	the work presented to the controller.

	The ra boot block code (/sys/mdec/rauboot.s) has a loop:

/
/ RA initialize controller
/
	mov	$RASTEP1,r0
	mov	raip,r1
	clr	(r1)+			/ go through controller init seq.
	mov	$icons,r2
1:
	bit	r0,(r1)
	beq	1b
---->>>>
	mov	(r2)+,(r1)
	asl	r0
	bpl	1b
	mov	$ra+RARSPREF,*$ra+RARSPL / set controller characteristics
	mov	$ra+RACMDREF,*$ra+RACMDL
	mov	$RASTCON,r0
	jsr	pc,racmd
	mov	unit,*$ra+RAUNIT	/ bring boot unit online
	mov	$RAONLIN,r0
	jsr	pc,racmd
		...




	I suspect that the loop at ---->>> needs to be modified to do something
	special for step 1.

	Steve


From wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au  Sun Dec 12 21:10:32 1999
From: wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 12 Dec 1999 22:10:32 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Temporary Mail List Suspension
Message-ID: <199912121110.WAA40763@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

[ apologies to those who receive this e-mail multiple times ]

This e-mail is being sent to you via a mailing list run on the machine
minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au. I've been informed that our entire network is
going to be shut down from Friday 24 December until Monday 3 January 2000.

In other words, all services on Minnie (web, ftp, CGI scripts, this mailing
list) will be temporarily unavailable during this period. Minnie, as always,
will be sitting here under my desk, waiting for someone to talk to her. So
as soon as the routers come back up, Minnie will reappear.

I'll take this opportunity to wish everybody a happy festive season; take it
safe on the roads, don't go anywhere near the CBD of Sydney on New Year's Eve,
and we'll catch you again in 2000, assuming your Microsloth Windoze box isn't
infected with gazillions of viruses :-)

Cheers all,

	Warren Toomey	wkt at cs.adfa.edu.au


From arno at usn.nl  Mon Dec 13 19:18:14 1999
From: arno at usn.nl (Arno Griffioen)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 10:18:14 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912130918.KAA01758@lost.usn.nl>

OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
along the way.

No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)

What are my options to get 2.11BSD running on this beast? 

I have a uVAX 3600 running NetBSD, so I could possibly dump a raw
filesystem image onto one of the RA92's and perhaps boot the 11/94
off of it. Is this feasible? I haven't looked into it yet..

I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I 
didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
or installing UNIX from it..

I don't have any other UNIBUS cards, so I can't plug my TK70 into
the 11/94..

Any thoughts on the subject are welcome..

							Bye, Arno.

-- 
PSINetworks Europe           Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34               Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands |   *  Musical Interlude  *      | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------

 We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
 With a Cast-Iron fist!                  (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Dec 14 05:35:35 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 11:35:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912131935.LAA18041@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Arno Griffioen <arno at usn.nl>
> 
> OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked


	Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives!   Condolences
	on the tape drive being junked.

> No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)

	In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
	I do not know of any in the Netherlands.  If at all possible get
	a DELUA insetad  - less power hungry and fewer bugs.

> What are my options to get 2.11BSD running on this beast? 
> 
> I have a uVAX 3600 running NetBSD, so I could possibly dump a raw
> filesystem image onto one of the RA92's and perhaps boot the 11/94
> off of it. Is this feasible? I haven't looked into it yet..

	Yes, it should be possible.  You will need to run one of the emulators
	(either Bob Supnik's or Willi Begemot's "P11").  The tricky part
	will be in the geometry/size of the disk image.  The emulators
	do not know about MSCP drives so you will have to go thru the bootstrap
	process using an SMD ('xp' driver) drive and pretend you have a 
	RP06 or 7.  Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock.  
	DD that image to an  RA92 and hoo that up to the /94.
	

	The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not
	be exactly right for the last partition.  Experimenting with the
	standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may
	be needed.  If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a 
	rebuild of the freelist will be needed.

	Experimentation - I think it'd take a few tries to get it right ;)

> I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I 
> didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
> or installing UNIX from it..

	No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program.   At 256kb
	it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
	a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Tue Dec 14 05:59:34 1999
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 14:59:34 -0500
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <991213145934.21e008e3@trailing-edge.com>

>> I was thinking of using one of those TU58 emulators on the PC, but I 
>> didn't find any mention of booting an 11/94 of these tape drives
>> or installing UNIX from it..

>	No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program.   At 256kb
>	it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
>	a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.

Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated
TU58's.  Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's".

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Dec 14 06:56:53 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 13 Dec 1999 12:56:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912132056.MAA18516@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: Tim Shoppa <SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com>
> 
> Even if there was support, it'd be just plain cruel, even with emulated
> TU58's.  Reminds me of "The Wagner Ring Cycle on Convenient 45's".

	That wasn't too bad.  You should try Das Rheingold on 78's :)

	Steve

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From arno at usn.nl  Tue Dec 14 17:28:16 1999
From: arno at usn.nl (Arno Griffioen)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 08:28:16 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912131935.LAA18041@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at "Dec 13, 1999 11:35:35 am"
Message-ID: <199912140728.IAA07390@lost.usn.nl>

> > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
> 
> 
> 	Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives!   Condolences
> 	on the tape drive being junked.

The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in 
this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..

Pity I have little UNIBUS stuff.. Most of my other DEC hardware is QBUS based,
otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller
I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive.

The machine itself seems to work fine (and seems to be pretty much 'lodaded').
Runs RSX-11 now (at least a partial setup as I wasn't able to get all drives)

> > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
> 
> 	In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
> 	I do not know of any in the Netherlands.  If at all possible get
> 	a DELUA insetad  - less power hungry and fewer bugs.

Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That
should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's
just 9600)

> 	RP06 or 7.  Then at the last minute install the MSCP bootblock.  
> 	DD that image to an  RA92 and hoo that up to the /94.

Worth a shot..

> 	The problem you will most likely encounter is that the size will not
> 	be exactly right for the last partition.  Experimenting with the
> 	standalone 'disklabel' program and adjusting the sizes/geometry may
> 	be needed.  If the size is changed then 'fsck -s' to force a 
> 	rebuild of the freelist will be needed.

Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to 
run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly)

> 	No support for the TU58 in the kernel or boot program.   At 256kb
> 	it's barely large enough to hold the standalone programs much less
> 	a dump of the root filesystem or anything like that.

OK. Got that.

Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or 
a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..

I have little or no 9-track reel tape stuff :-)

Thanx for the help!

							Bye, Arno.

-- 
PSINetworks Europe           Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34               Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands |   *  Musical Interlude  *      | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------

 We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
 With a Cast-Iron fist!                  (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Dec 15 07:19:27 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 13:19:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912142119.NAA06698@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From arno at usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in 

	Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place.  Nice.  Having the
	"toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too.

> this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
> RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..

	Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe)

> otherwise I wouldn't have had the problem.. I have an UC07 SCSI controller
> I could use for a while (but it's QBUS) to hook up a tape drive.

	As I was reminded a short time ago - don't put a Qbus board into a
	Unibus machine (or the other way around) :-)

> Any network connection will be OK.. I hope BSD has PPP support? That
> should give at least some rudimentary network connectivity (even if it's
> just 9600)

	SL/IP yes but 2.11 predates PPP and I am not sure there is room in
	the kernel/networking for PPP (which is a much more complex protocol).

	I've run SL/IP just fine - and if you have the (fairly) recent updates
	to enable hardware flowcontrol you can run considerably faster than
	9600 and not worry about dropped characters or truncated packets.

> Or I could use 1 RA92 (with the problem you describe) and use it to 
> run the install on the second drive? (partitioning that properly)

	Ah, yes indeed!  As long as the kernel's idea of the drive size
	is less than what the actual disk image is then you should not have
	any problems - i.e. if you put an RA60 sized image on an RA92 it 
	should work (at least well enough to configure the 2nd drive correctly).
	Obviously the other way around would not work ;)

> Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or 
> a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..

	A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
	the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly).  I
	do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though.

	An inexpensive TS05 would be a real nice thing to have about now ;)

	Steve

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From SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com  Wed Dec 15 07:55:41 1999
From: SHOPPA at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 16:55:41 -0500
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <991214165541.246000ac@trailing-edge.com>

>> From arno at usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
>> The '94 is way cool! I'm amazed at the extensive menu-based boot ROM in 

>	Yep - I have seen that on the 11/93 at my place.  Nice.  Having the
>	"toyclock" to get the date/time from is real good too.

As long as you've updated to the Y2K-compliant KDJ11-E firmware, that is.

The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it
will promptly wrap back around to 1990.  You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset'
(or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date,
but at power on it'll reset back to 1990.

See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering
code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94
firmware.

-- 
 Tim Shoppa                        Email: shoppa at trailing-edge.com
 Trailing Edge Technology          WWW:   http://www.trailing-edge.com/
 7328 Bradley Blvd		   Voice: 301-767-5917
 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817           Fax:   301-767-5927



From arno at usn.nl  Thu Dec 16 19:42:34 1999
From: arno at usn.nl (Arno Griffioen)
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 1999 10:42:34 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <991214165541.246000ac@trailing-edge.com> from Tim Shoppa at "Dec 14, 1999  4:55:41 pm"
Message-ID: <199912160942.KAA15079@lost.usn.nl>

> The "old" firmware will do fine up until the end of 28-Feb-2000, when it
> will promptly wrap back around to 1990.  You can use 2.11BSD 'toyset'
> (or the RSX-11 or RT-11 equivalent) to set the TOY clock after that date,
> but at power on it'll reset back to 1990.

No prob.. If I get a SLIP link up and running I'll just suck down the right
date from an NTP server on my net which is synchronized to a radio clock.

Heck, I could just hook up a clock receiver to the machine directly! 

I hardly ever bother to set hardware clocks in my machines anymore. The
batteries in my VAX for the clock and stuff ran out quite a while ago, but 
no problem either..

> See the discussions in vmsnet.pdp-11 earlier this year for the ordering
> code and cost (I think it's around $25.00) for the new 11/93 and 11/94
> firmware.

Any idea about version numbers I could check? This machine was used until 
pretty recently in a production environment and maintained pretty 
well on the hardware/firmware level. I don't think it was decomissioned
because of Y2K, but because they were told that they could provide a 'better' 
service with a Micro$oft solution. 

Last thing I heard is that the new solution is sorta falling apart all over
the place.. Not surprising to me, but they're not getting this machine back! :-)

							Bye, Arno.

-- 
PSINetworks Europe           Fax: +31-23-5699841 | One disk to rule them all,
Siriusdreef 34               Tel: +31-23-5699840 | One disk to bind them,
2132WT Hoofddorp+--------------------------------+ One disk to hold the files
The Netherlands |   *  Musical Interlude  *      | And in the darkness grind 'em
----------------+--------------------------------+------------------------------

 We say Retribution, We say Vengeance is bliss, We say Revolution,
 With a Cast-Iron fist!                  (Megadeth, 'The Disintegrators')

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sat Dec 18 02:10:25 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:10:25 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912131935.LAA18041@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217170736.14918B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> > From: Arno Griffioen <arno at usn.nl>
> > 
> > OK.. Biggie here is that this machine doesn't have a tape drive, just
> > 2 RA92 drives. It used to have a TU81, but it seems to have been junked
> 
> 
> 	Congratulations on getting a /94 with RA92 drives!   Condolences
> 	on the tape drive being junked.

Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)

> > No ethernet card either.. (anybody know where to get a DEUNA cheap??)
> 
> 	In the US there are many places which sell used DEC equipment but
> 	I do not know of any in the Netherlands.  If at all possible get
> 	a DELUA insetad  - less power hungry and fewer bugs.

Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
DEUNAs lying around).

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sat Dec 18 02:30:33 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 17:30:33 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912142119.NAA06698@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217172822.14918E-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> Hi -
> 
> > From arno at usn.nl Mon Dec 13 23:28:32 1999
> > this thing. At least the RA92's are quite a bit more 'civilized' than the
> > RA82 on my uVAX which is more like a howling banshee..
> 
> 	Use less power and are more reliable (also larger capacity I believe)

RA82: 622 MB
RA92: 1.2GB

All with reservations about my memory going bad... :-)

> > Guess my first search will be for either an UNIBUS SCSI controller or 
> > a TK50/TK70 controller as I still have some drives for those..
> 
> 	A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> 	the benefit of the buffer cache (which speeds things up greatly).  I
> 	do not know if there was a Unibus TK50 adaptor though.

TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Dec 18 04:26:03 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:26:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912171826.KAA04099@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> RA82: 622 MB
> RA92: 1.2GB

	That sounds a little small.  AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on 
	the PDP-11

	The RA90 was ~1.2GB:

		:pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:

	and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB:

		:pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:

> > 	A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> 
> TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
> VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.

	Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only?

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Dec 18 04:22:39 1999
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 10:22:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
Message-ID: <199912171822.KAA04095@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)

	An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less
	noise from what I have seen.

> Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
> faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
> DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
> DEUNAs lying around).

	I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to
	lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA.
	The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the
	DELUA is better than the DEUNA.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sat Dec 18 05:10:31 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:10:31 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912171822.KAA04095@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217200602.16096F-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> Hi -
> 
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > Agree. I'd like to get my hands on a /94 myself... :-)
> 
> 	An 11/93 would be nice too, Qbus systems use less power and make less
> 	noise from what I have seen.

Well, I'm in love with Unibus systems... I have an 11/84 at home, and of
course, there is always Magica, which is an 11/70... :-)
(And then we have Knase, which is our 11/70 with 2.11BSD. Unfortunately,
both systems are powered off right now because of cooling problems. :-(

> > Less powerhungry, yes. It also takes less space on the Unibus, and is
> > faster. But I wasn't aware that the DEUNA had any more bugs than the
> > DELUA. Please enlight me. (I only use DELUAs myself, but I have one or two
> > DEUNAs lying around).
> 
> 	I know the DEQNA had firmware problems that could cause the board to
> 	lock up under load - perhaps I was confusing the DEQNA and DEUNA.
> 	The later Qbus board (DELQA) was much nicer in the same way that the
> 	DELUA is better than the DEUNA.

I don't think the DEUNA has that bug which riddles the DEQNA.
Also, the DEUNA/DELUA loads some microcode when I start using them, this
is running RSX. That microcode is located on the RSX system. Beats me what
it is for, or anything.
Worse (parhaps) is that the device driver for the DEUNA/DELUA don't work
with any Q-bus models, which means I don't have a driver for Q-bus
machines...

Anybody know anything more about this? I really don't care to dig around
the sources here, and also, I don't have the sources to all components.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sat Dec 18 05:12:45 1999
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 17 Dec 1999 20:12:45 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Installing UNIX on an 11/94
In-Reply-To: <199912171826.KAA04099@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.991217201053.16096G-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 17 Dec 1999, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> Hi -
> 
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > RA82: 622 MB
> > RA92: 1.2GB
> 
> 	That sounds a little small.  AH, let me go check /etc/disktab on 
> 	the PDP-11
> 
> 	The RA90 was ~1.2GB:
> 
> 		:pc#2376153:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:
> 
> 	and the RA92 was closer to 1.4GB:
> 
> 		:pc#2940951:oc#0:bc#1024:fc#1024:

You got me. :-)

> > > 	A TK70 controller will run a TK50 drive very nicely _and_ offer
> > 
> > TUK50 was (is) the name of that controller. I've actually played with a
> > VAX-11/750 with a TK50 once upon a time many moons ago.
> 
> 	Was there a TUK70 - or was the TK70 for the Qbus systems only?

Yes, Q-bus only. When the TK70 came out, I guess DEC had decided to stop
development of Unibus peripherials.
I very much doubt they sold that many TUK50, or RUX50 controllers.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol



