From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Feb  1 02:07:09 2001
From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:07:09 -0500
Subject: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101302039390.3188-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <3A78382D.37188B15@tampabay.rr.com>

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
> 
> > Don't forget to type 'date' when logged in ... it is a hoot to see B^)
> >
> > Oh heck, never thought to actually try to set the date, post 2000...
> > maybe better to let it live back in 1975...
> 
> I assume it is just like Ultrix-11 was, soooooo
> Here's a quick way to get the date right until you get a chance to
> install a fixed "date" command.  Yes, it is only the date command
> that is not Y2K ready.

No, V6 predates Ultrix-11 by just a bit I believe.

The date setting format on V6 appears to be '1231245999', that is
two digits for: month, day, hour, minute, year.  A trailing 'p' means
the hours are 12 based (and it is PM), otherwise 24 based.

I can confirm as I expected that setting 0131110301 puts me at 1970 B^)

No big deal.  I can see in the 'date' source what it is doing...

Thanks for the 'put it into the year 2001' method!

-- Ken


From rdonkin at bigfoot.com  Thu Feb  1 08:28:44 2001
From: rdonkin at bigfoot.com (Richard Donkin)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:28:44 +0000
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
Message-ID: <3A78919C.3D604E23@bigfoot.com>

I'm running 2.11BSD on the Supnik simulator, and wondering how to get it
networked.  
This sim seems to only support serial lines, so maybe I have to move
over to the 
Begemot simulator - in which case, is it best to use FreeBSD or Linux as
the host
for the sim?  I'm more familiar with Linux but I have FreeBSD running
now - the question
is what's easier to set up for networking.

Does anyone have a working Begemot sim setup with networking, used with
2.11BSD?  If so,
could you post your config files?  The Begemot sim seems a lot more
complex to set up
than Supnik.

Cheers,

Richard

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From rdonkin at bigfoot.com  Thu Feb  1 08:42:02 2001
From: rdonkin at bigfoot.com (Richard Donkin)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:42:02 +0000
Subject: [pups] File exchange with Supnik sim
Message-ID: <3A7894BA.370723F0@bigfoot.com>

I've tried the suggestions for getting files in and out of the Supnik
sim,
in particular using rl0 mapped to x.tar, and 'tar cvf /dev/rrl0a
/etc/hosts'.
However, tar complains: 'tar: tape write error: Read-only file system'.

The disklabel for rl0 looks like:

# /dev/rrl0a:
type: old DEC
disk: 
label: 
flags:
bytes/sector: 512
sectors/track: 20
tracks/cylinder: 2
sectors/cylinder: 40
cylinders: 0
rpm: 0
interleave: 0
trackskew: 0
cylinderskew: 0
headswitch: 0           # milliseconds
track-to-track seek: 0  # milliseconds
drivedata: 0 

1 partitions:
#        size   offset    fstype   [fsize bsize]
  a:    10240        0   2.11BSD     1024  1024         # (Cyl.    0 -
255)
cylinders/unit 0
Warning, revolutions/minute 0
boot block size 0
super block size 0
partition a: extends past end of unit 0 10240 0

Presumably I need to create a valid disklabel, but it would be good to
have some advice on what a valid one
would look like.

I've also tried the same sort of thing with 'tar cvbBf 20 /dev/rmt0
/etc/hosts', and 
something like a tar file is produced - however, GNU tar on Linux and
FreeBSD 4.2 tar can't
read this, saying 'this doesn't look like a tar file'.  Is there some
trick to getting this
to work, and am I better off using rl0 or rmt0? 

Richard

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Feb  1 09:14:49 2001
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:44:49 +1030
Subject: [pups] Re: 2.11BSD networking on simulator
In-Reply-To: <3A78919C.3D604E23@bigfoot.com>; from rdonkin@bigfoot.com on Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 10:28:44PM +0000
References: <3A78919C.3D604E23@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <20010201094448.D70596@wantadilla.lemis.com>

[Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html]

Your message contained alternate long and short lines

On Wednesday, 31 January 2001 at 22:28:44 +0000, Richard Donkin wrote:
> I'm running 2.11BSD on the Supnik simulator, and wondering how to
> get it networked.  This sim seems to only support serial lines, so
> maybe I have to move over to the Begemot simulator - in which case,
> is it best to use FreeBSD or Linux as the host for the sim?  I'm
> more familiar with Linux but I have FreeBSD running now - the
> question is what's easier to set up for networking.

The Begemot emulator was written on BSD, so you'll probably find it
easier to use under FreeBSD.

> Does anyone have a working Begemot sim setup with networking, used
> with 2.11BSD?  If so, could you post your config files?  The Begemot
> sim seems a lot more complex to set up than Supnik.

*sigh* I used to, and it worked well.  A number of changes in FreeBSD
have rendered the emulator non-functional, and I haven't had time to
find out what's wrong.  I'll take a look and see if I can see anything
obvious, but it might take me a while.

Greg
--
When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the
original text.  
For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Feb  1 09:17:54 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:17:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
Message-ID: <200101312317.f0VNHsd17441@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Richard Donkin <rdonkin at bigfoot.com>
> I'm running 2.11BSD on the Supnik simulator, and wondering how to get it
> networked.  

	It can not be done except perhaps with a SL/IP link.  The Supnik 
	simulator does not have an emulated ethernet device.

> Begemot simulator - in which case, is it best to use FreeBSD or Linux as
> the host

	I use BSD/OS myself, but FreeBSD works very nicely also.  I've not
	tried it with linux.

> Does anyone have a working Begemot sim setup with networking, used with
> 2.11BSD?  If so,

	Quite a few folks have it running.   

> could you post your config files?  The Begemot sim seems a lot more
> complex to set up than Supnik.
	
	Yes, it is quite a bit more complex (cryptic) to set up.

	Here's what I use to run P11 with.  If you strip out all of the
	macro preprocessing stuff the config file is much more readable and
	not nearly as cryptic as before.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

------------------
set clock_rate 60

ctrl rk 017777400 0220 5 4000
end

ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
end

ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
dev 0 ./2.11BSD  1999
dev 1 ./junk  1999
end

ctrl kl
dev 017777560  060  064 4 tty_net  -7 -t 10000
dev 017776500 0300 0304 4 tty_net  -7 -t 10001
end

ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
end

ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
end

ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
# dev 0 /tmp/foo
end

ctrl qna 017774440 5 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0xf8:0x7a qna.rom
dev epp_tun tun0 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x00
end

# The toy clock.
#
ctrl toy 017777526
end

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From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Feb  1 11:37:29 2001
From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:37:29 -0500
Subject: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
References: <200101302330.PAA29420@chiton.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <3A78BDD9.995B3F42@tampabay.rr.com>

Carl Lowenstein wrote:
> 
> > From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jan 30 14:16 PST 2001
> >
> > Yes, but it doesn't boot on an 11/34 :(
> > That's the problem.
> 
> Why, said he wonderingly.  Is the 11/34 one of those machines that does
> not have a directly addressable PSW at 177776 so it must be done with
> MPTS and MFPS instructions?  Thats all I can think of immediately.
>
>	...

When I looked last night at the machine assist (mch.s) for Ultrix-11/3.1
source, all I could easily find was consistent with this, contained in
the V6 start document:

    The main difference between an 11/40 and an 11/45 (or 11/70)
    system is that in the former instruction restart after a
    segmentation violation caused by overflowing a user stack
    must be handled by software, while in the latter machines
    there is hardware help.

which in more detail means, if I understand right, there is no SSR2
register in the MMU so the kernel code needs to disassemble the
instruction to backup over it for restarting as per above.

The Ultrix mch.s file has code that does this (quite a lot) and I
noticed a few cases that checked it the cputype is 34.

Cheers,

-- Ken

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From robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk  Thu Feb  1 18:59:30 2001
From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk (robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:59:30 +0000
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
Message-ID: <002569E6.00324BF2.00@postoffice.co.uk>



I have the begemot simulator running very effectively on Linux, although I have
not used the emulated ethernet connection.  If anyone knows how to set this up
on linux then I would welcome some help.

I must say that although p11 takes quite a bit of setting up it is well worth
the trouble.

Regards

Robin



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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Fri Feb  2 03:35:13 2001
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:35:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
Message-ID: <200102011735.JAA05794@chiton.ucsd.edu>

> From iking at microsoft.com Tue Jan 30 15:27 PST 2001
> From: Ian King <iking at microsoft.com>
> To: "'Ken Wellsch'" <kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com>,
>         Carl Lowenstein
> 	 <cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu>
> Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: RE: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:38:15 -0800
> 
> Ken, I tried using that image and gunzip told me there was a crc error; it
> wouldn't unzip it.  (I downloaded it three times, just in case there was a
> transmission error -- twice by ftp, once by http.)  I've also tried the
> "Dennis" images, which are supposedly straight RK05 images; E11 won't boot
> 'em.  One issue on which I'm not clear: where is the boot address?  Stuff at
> loc 0 doesn't look like boot instructions.  
> 
> If I could get an image to run in an emulator (as I mentioned, I'm running
> E11 from DBit), I'd write some cheesy little loader to bring it down the
> serial line (I already have it sketched out); but until I can at least get
> one to boot in the emulator, I'm reluctant to spend the hours (at 9600 baud)
> to spray it onto a disk.  <sigh>  

Well, as some response to this challenge "get an image to run in an emulator",
I visited Bob Supnik's Computer History Simulation Project web page

	<www.tiac.net/users/mps/retro/>

and followed the links to the sources for SIMH v2.5a and to the Unix V6
disk images.

I read the documentation file "simh_doc.txt", and compiled the
simulator.  Then I read "simh_swre.txt", unpacked the V6 images, ran
the simulator and attached the three RK05 images to it, and booted
RK0.  All according to the instructions.

I got the bootstrap prompt "@" to which I typed "unix" and it came up
with a "login:" prompt, to which I could log in as root, and do things.

It's not quite the same V6 image that I remember from the olden days of
loading onto an 11/40 from magtape.  The login prompt seems not to be
";login:" as we still see on the Usenix magazine.  dmr's account seems
to have vanished but ken's is still there.  And that's how I spent a
few hours last night.

In case it matters, the underlying hardware/software platform is an AMD
K6-3 running Mandrake 7.1 Linux.

    carl

        carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
        {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl                 cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu
                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu


From mayhew at altavista.com  Fri Feb  2 08:30:43 2001
From: mayhew at altavista.com (Bill Mayhew)
Date: 1 Feb 2001 14:30:43 -0800
Subject: FW: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
Message-ID: <20010201223043.20658.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Fri Feb  2 10:22:10 2001
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:22:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FW: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
Message-ID: <200102020022.QAA11849@chiton.ucsd.edu>

 pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> From mayhew at altavista.com Thu Feb  1 14:31 PST 2001
> Date: 1 Feb 2001 14:30:43 -0800
> X-Sent: 1 Feb 2001 22:30:43 GMT
> To: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu
> From: Bill Mayhew <mayhew at altavista.com>
> Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: Re: FW: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
> 
> This is a real stretch for my brain, but I seem to recall that the
> ";" that appeared in ";login:" in the 1970s was sort-of "bleed-through"
> from an escape sequence that was intended to do cursor positioning
> and/or screen-clearing on some terminals... or something like that...
> therefore its absence would not necessarily be significant on different
> hardware.

Oh, yes.  I was just hiding my previous knowledge.  The ";" and ":" in
the login prompt were the visible part of escape sequences to control a
Teletype KSR37.  They didn't do anything useful on a VT05 but did show
up on the screen.

Unix Sixth Edition predates the common availability of even the dumbest
CRT terminals.  There are still a lot of TTY37 control codes hanging
around in nroff output.

    carl


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From robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk  Sat Feb  3 00:04:42 2001
From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk (robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:04:42 +0000
Subject: [pups] makedepend
Message-ID: <002569E7.004E3D33.00@postoffice.co.uk>



Ok, I know that this isn't to do with a pdp or ancient unix but does anyone know
where I can find the sources for makedepend ?

REgards

Robin



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From iking at microsoft.com  Sat Feb  3 03:03:59 2001
From: iking at microsoft.com (Ian King)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:03:59 -0800 
Subject: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
Message-ID: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C138A34@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

After seeing all the mail of success with the Supnik emulator, I found a
compiled copy and tried that -- and got to a login: prompt!  That's with the
image you sent me -- many thanks.  I'm going to have to learn more about the
Supnik emulator now; in particular, I need to understand how to set it for a
given processor emulation, so that once I rebuild the system to run on a '34
(which is supposed to be feasible), I can be reasonably sure it will work
once it's ported over to the real machine. 

NOTE: neither simulator will run in a DOS box on Windows 2000.  E11 starts
up, but has problem accessing files (you can't MOUNT a file as a device).
Supnik just won't go at all.  I've been running my emulator on a DOS machine
(actually, an old 486 laptop; hey guys, I have a laptop PDP-11!).  

Cheers -- Ian 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:20 AM
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?


Ian King wrote:
> 
> Ken, I tried using that image and gunzip told me there was a crc error; it
> wouldn't unzip it.  (I downloaded it three times, just in case there was a
> transmission error -- twice by ftp, once by http.)

So going over all the things I can easily do data integrity checks on, I've
run 'gzip -tv' on all the GZip'ed things and found three that are apparently
damaged:

gzip: ./PDP-11/Distributions/dec/Ultrix-3.1/ultrix-3.1-bootape.tar.gz:
              invalid compressed data--crc error
gzip: ./PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/v6.tape.gz:
              invalid compressed data--crc error
gzip: ./PDP-11/Distributions/unsw/90/record0.gz:
              invalid compressed data--crc error

I can't comment on the *.Z compressed archives as they do not do any crc.

I will have to peruse my stack of archive CD's made at various stages of
the archive to see if I have the other two (I have a good 'v6.tape.gz'
file).

I did not try and run the MD5 list yet.  But this is an example of why I
had been pushing for the use of MD5 for all items in the archive...  B^)

-- Ken


From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Feb  3 07:05:13 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:05:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] makedepend
Message-ID: <200102022105.f12L5Dg00565@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi Robin -

> From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk
> 
> I know that this isn't to do with a pdp or ancient unix but does anyone know
> where I can find the sources for makedepend ?

	It's installed in

		/usr/src/X11/xc/config/makedepend

	on the systems I have looked on.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From rdonkin at bigfoot.com  Sat Feb  3 19:51:28 2001
From: rdonkin at bigfoot.com (Richard Donkin)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 09:51:28 +0000
Subject: [pups] Re: 2.11BSD networking on simulator
References: <3A78919C.3D604E23@bigfoot.com> <20010201094448.D70596@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <3A7BD4A0.D58E2F80@bigfoot.com>

Greg Lehey wrote:
> 
> The Begemot emulator was written on BSD, so you'll probably find it
> easier to use under FreeBSD.
> 
> > Does anyone have a working Begemot sim setup with networking, used
> > with 2.11BSD?  If so, could you post your config files?  The Begemot
> > sim seems a lot more complex to set up than Supnik.
> 
> *sigh* I used to, and it worked well.  A number of changes in FreeBSD
> have rendered the emulator non-functional, and I haven't had time to
> find out what's wrong.  I'll take a look and see if I can see anything
> obvious, but it might take me a while.

Thanks - do you know what FreeBSD version it last worked on?  Also,
which 
version of P11 you are using?  I'm not doing anything significant with
the FreeBSD
box (it's a virtual machine under VMware) so re-installing is not a
problem.

Richard

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From rdonkin at bigfoot.com  Sat Feb  3 19:54:37 2001
From: rdonkin at bigfoot.com (Richard Donkin)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 09:54:37 +0000
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
References: <200101312317.f0VNHsd17441@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <3A7BD55D.B64B221B@bigfoot.com>

"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
...
>         I use BSD/OS myself, but FreeBSD works very nicely also.  I've not
>         tried it with linux.

Could you let me know the FreeBSD and Begemot P11 versions you were
using? (Anyone
else who has a working combination, feel free to jump in!)

Thanks very much for the config file, that should make life a lot
easier... And
thanks for all your efforts in updating 2.11BSD - very impressive to get
a full
fledged BSD system on a PDP-11!

Cheers

Richard


From pa at cdg.chalmers.se  Sun Feb  4 07:10:48 2001
From: pa at cdg.chalmers.se (Per Andersson)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:10:48 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
In-Reply-To: <3A7BD55D.B64B221B@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000@wilfer4.cdg.chalmers.se>



On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Richard Donkin wrote:

> "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
> ...
> >         I use BSD/OS myself, but FreeBSD works very nicely also.  I've not
> >         tried it with linux.
>
> Could you let me know the FreeBSD and Begemot P11 versions you were
> using? (Anyone
> else who has a working combination, feel free to jump in!)

This might not be state-of-the-art (but thats not the point anyway), I'm
running p11 version 2.5 on an FreeBSD 3.4 machine and it works ok, the main
problem I have found is that after a while the clock starts to run slow,
at the momement it thinks it's christmas eve (after beeing up about 130 days).


	/Per Andersson



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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Sun Feb  4 08:23:08 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:23:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000@wilfer4.cdg.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102031721020.6311-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>

On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Per Andersson wrote:

> 
> This might not be state-of-the-art (but thats not the point anyway), I'm
> running p11 version 2.5 on an FreeBSD 3.4 machine and it works ok, the main

Where can I find this Begemot P11 Emulator??  I visited the Begemot site
but the link to products doesn't appear to work.  I have tried E11 (demo
version) and the Supnil Emulator, but have never heard of this one til now.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sun Feb  4 09:45:42 2001
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 23:45:42 +0000
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000@wilfer4.cdg.chalmers.se>
References: <3A7BD55D.B64B221B@bigfoot.com>
 <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000@wilfer4.cdg.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <e+SmvUAmgJf6Ew48@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000 at wilfer4.cdg.chalmers
.se>, Per Andersson <pa at cdg.chalmers.se> writes
>
>
>On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Richard Donkin wrote:
>
>> "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>> ...
>> >         I use BSD/OS myself, but FreeBSD works very nicely also.  I've not
>> >         tried it with linux.
>>
>> Could you let me know the FreeBSD and Begemot P11 versions you were
>> using? (Anyone
>> else who has a working combination, feel free to jump in!)
>
>This might not be state-of-the-art (but thats not the point anyway), I'm
>running p11 version 2.5 on an FreeBSD 3.4 machine and it works ok, the main
>problem I have found is that after a while the clock starts to run slow,
>at the momement it thinks it's christmas eve (after beeing up about 130 days).
>
>
>       /Per Andersson
>
>
Hi,
Harti Brandt, the guy who wrote this package is shortly (I hope :-))
going to release a new version that includes a clock patch that Steve
Schultz dreamt up.  

Regards

Robin

Currently running P11 on linux
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sun Feb  4 09:47:06 2001
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 23:47:06 +0000
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102031721020.6311-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000@wilfer4.cdg.chalmers.se>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102031721020.6311-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <S+VlfhA6hJf6EwZk@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102031721020.6311-100000 at triangle.cs.uofs.ed
u>, Bill Gunshannon <bill at cs.scranton.edu> writes
>On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Per Andersson wrote:
>
>> 
>> This might not be state-of-the-art (but thats not the point anyway), I'm
>> running p11 version 2.5 on an FreeBSD 3.4 machine and it works ok, the main
>
>Where can I find this Begemot P11 Emulator??  I visited the Begemot site
>but the link to products doesn't appear to work.  I have tried E11 (demo
>version) and the Supnil Emulator, but have never heard of this one til now.
>
>bill
>
There is an oldish version on the pups archive.  I believe that harti is
going to release a newer version soon.

regards

Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sun Feb  4 10:03:00 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:03:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
Message-ID: <200102040003.f14030W16555@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Per Andersson <pa at cdg.chalmers.se>
> 
> This might not be state-of-the-art (but thats not the point anyway), I'm
> running p11 version 2.5 on an FreeBSD 3.4 machine and it works ok, the main
> problem I have found is that after a while the clock starts to run slow,
> at the momement it thinks it's christmas eve (after beeing up about 130 days).

	The bug is an arithmetic overflow in the clock computations.  After
	about 24 days (with 60Hz power in the US) the number of ticks the
	virtual machine has been up overflows 32 bits and time behaves very
	strange.

	Apply the patch below to 'device.c' and the problem goes away - it did
	for me.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

--- device.c.dist	Sat Mar  4 00:03:28 2000
+++ device.c	Fri Sep 29 23:59:10 2000
@@ -203,6 +203,7 @@
 	int secs;
 	int newrate, diff;
 	int newdir;
+	double dnow, dstart;
 
 	for(t = timeouts; t < &timeouts[ntimeouts]; t++)
 		if(t->time && --t->curr == 0) {
@@ -223,9 +224,9 @@
 	 * to the number we have elapsed
 	 */
 	gettimeofday(&tv, NULL);
-	secs = ((1000 * tv.tv_sec + tv.tv_usec/1000)
-	     - (1000 * timer.start.tv_sec + timer.start.tv_usec/1000))
-	     / 1000;
+	dstart = 1000.0 * timer.start.tv_sec + timer.start.tv_usec/1000.0;
+	dnow = 1000.0 * tv.tv_sec + tv.tv_usec/1000.0;
+	secs = (dnow - dstart) / 1000.0;
 
 	newrate = 1000000 / clock_rate;
 

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From cube1 at home.com  Sun Feb  4 10:50:25 2001
From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:50:25 -0600
Subject: [pups] V6 and PDP-11/34
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203184258.00bda9f0@cirithi>

I *have* *run* the standard Unix V6 distribution on my PDP 11/34.  Works 
just fine.

I also compared my V6 distribution image with the one on PUPS (years ago) 
and they matched just fine.

Load the pack from the RK05 image after the 100 (IIRC) block tape to disk 
loader program [how you get it there is another issue, of course...  8-)], 
boot up, type rkunix at the "@" and away you go.

I did not use the tape to disk program on the tape image, however -- I 
didn't have a tape drive at the time IIRC.  I have a standalone program 
that used a parallel port on my PC and a DR11 on my PDP-11 to write it, 
IIRC, but I might have used XMODEM and a serial port -- its been a lonnnng 
time since I did it.

Jay Jaeger


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:13:30 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?

In article by Carl Lowenstein:
 > Just from the historical point of view, note that the first major
 > file on a genuine 6th Edition distribution tape _is_ a bootable
 > RK05 image.  Something like 4000 blocks.
 >
 >     carl

Yes, but it doesn't boot on an 11/34 :(
That's the problem.

Cheers,
	Warren
---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com			visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sun Feb  4 16:39:28 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:39:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
Message-ID: <200102040639.f146dSx18575@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Richard Donkin <rdonkin at bigfoot.com>
> Could you let me know the FreeBSD and Begemot P11 versions you were
> using? (Anyone else who has a working combination, feel free to jump in!)
	
	Gosh, it was quite a while ago that I tried P11 on a FreeBSD system.
	It was pre-4.0 as I remember - perhaps 3.5 or 3.6

> Thanks very much for the config file, that should make life a lot
> easier... And

	Quite welcome!   Getting rid of the M4 macros and distilling the
	config file down to the basics makes it much easier to see what
	is going on.   Coming up with that first config file was a day
	or so of fun ;)

> thanks for all your efforts in updating 2.11BSD - very impressive to get
> a full fledged BSD system on a PDP-11!

	You're welcome - it's been a lot of fun over the years.  The past
	couple years development has slowed down, combination of too many
	other projects and not a lot of room left to stuff new features in ;)

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From cube1 at home.com  Mon Feb  5 08:09:33 2001
From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:09:33 -0600
Subject: [pups] Booting V6 on 11/34 vs 11/34A ??
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204155043.045c7d50@cirithi>

That RK05 image boots on an 11/34A just fine.   (I own one.  Trust me.  It 
just works.  No fiddling required).

Perhaps you have a plain 11/34, and perhaps there is some difference that 
matters.

But they should both have MMU, but perhaps the MMU in the 34A is different 
than a 34 in some odd way.

Do you have floating point?  Maybe that's the problem.

You could always try mini-unix...  8-)  That should run (it ran on an 11/20).

Jay

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:13:30 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?

In article by Carl Lowenstein:
  > Just from the historical point of view, note that the first major
  > file on a genuine 6th Edition distribution tape _is_ a bootable
  > RK05 image.  Something like 4000 blocks.
  >
  >     carl

Yes, but it doesn't boot on an 11/34 :(
That's the problem.

Cheers,
	Warren
- ---	
---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com			visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection


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From chd at nktelco.net  Mon Feb  5 08:46:00 2001
From: chd at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 17:46:00 -0500
Subject: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73
Message-ID: <3A7DDBA8.3C69A521@nktelco.net>

Greetings,

I have a PDP-11/73 on which I have installed 2.11 BSD from the PUPS
archives. I have a few hardware configurations questions that I hope
someone might be able to help me with.

The memory board that I have was made by Clearpoint Inc. The board
has the markings Q-RAM 44B REV. B and GSB-2. Unfortunately, I have
no documentation for the board. The board originally had 1 MB
installed, and I added another 1 MB of chips. The extra chips were
not recognized though. Does anyone have information on the jumper
settings for this board?

I have two MSCP controllers installed. One is a CMD CQD-220/M SCSI
controller with one drive attached, CSR is the first MSCP controller,
and unit is set to 0. The second is an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached. 
It is set with CSR at the second MSCP controller address. The 
jumpers are set for unit 1. The result is that I have a SCSI drive
at DU0 and the RX50's at DU4 and DU5 during boot.

DU0 is ra0 and DU4 is ra12 in 2.11 BSD. If I change the jumpers on
RQDX3 to unit 2, I boot at DU8, the first RX50, but I can no longer
access the floppies from 2.11 BSD. Looking at the sources, it seems
that the drive number is limited to 0-7, but the controller seems to
want unit number 8. What am I missing? This seems to occur both in
the kernel and in the standalone installation system.

Chuck Dickman
chd at nktelco.net

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Feb  5 09:45:33 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:45:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73
Message-ID: <200102042345.f14NjXN00172@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: "Chuck Dickman" <chd at nktelco.net>
> The memory board that I have was made by Clearpoint Inc. The board

	'fraid I can't be of help with the memory board - that's not
	my area of expertise.

> I have two MSCP controllers installed. One is a CMD CQD-220/M SCSI

	Ah, but I can help with getting the dual MSCP controller
	question.

	My 11/73 is similar - it has an Emulex UC08 and the original
	RQDX3 (with an RD54 and a RX03).

> DU0 is ra0 and DU4 is ra12 in 2.11 BSD. If I change the jumpers on
> RQDX3 to unit 2, I boot at DU8, the first RX50, but I can no longer
> access the floppies from 2.11 BSD. Looking at the sources, it seems
> that the drive number is limited to 0-7, but the controller seems to
> want unit number 8. What am I missing? This seems to occur both in
> the kernel and in the standalone installation system.

	Ignore anything you might know about DU numbers ;)

	2.11 numbers the drives 0 thru 7 on _each_ controller.   Thus
	'ra0' thru 'ra7' are on the first controller, 'ra8' thru 'ra15'
	on the second controller and so on.  There is a maximum of 4
	controllers supported (two bits in the minor device number).

	The standalone I/O system uses device names of the form:

		dev(ctlr, unit, part)

	where 'ctlr' is the controller number (0 thru 3), the 'unit' number
	is 0 thru 7 and the 'part' is the partition number (0 thru 7).   So,
	to access the first drive on the second controller from a standalone
	program the name would be:

		ra(1,0,0)

	you probably will be prompted for the CSR since 'boot' and friends
	only know about the first controller's address.

	Once the kernel is loaded you access drives on the 2nd controller
	with device names such as /dev/ra8a, /dev/ra9a, and so on.   

	The "sparse" numbering was chosen (eons and eons ago) to make the
	MSCP disks look more like the traditional disc controllers which
	allowed for 8 drives per controller.

	In my /etc/dtab file I have:

ra      ? 172154 154    5       raintr          # uda50, rqdx1/2/3
ra      ? 172150 0      5       raintr          # 2nd uda50/uc08

	From the console ODT prompt (I've an older MXV11 boot set up) I
	use "172150 du 0" to boot from the SCSI disk attached to the UC08.
	When the system is up the RD54 (which is unit 0 on the other MSCP
	controller) is accessed as 'ra8' (and the RX03 which is unit 1 
	accessed as 'ra9').

	It's pretty simple and regular once one knows what is going on ;)

	Steven Schultz
	sms at to.gd-es.com

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From chd at nktelco.net  Mon Feb  5 11:49:50 2001
From: chd at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:49:50 -0500
Subject: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73]
Message-ID: <3A7E06BE.F5687560@nktelco.net>

"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
> Hi -
>
<snip>
What you described here makes sense and was my first impression of
what should happen, but my experience is different.
>
>         In my /etc/dtab file I have:
>
> ra      ? 172154 154    5       raintr          # uda50, rqdx1/2/3
> ra      ? 172150 0      5       raintr          # 2nd uda50/uc08

My /etc/dtab is:

ra      ? 172150 154    5       raintr          # uda50, rqdx1/2/3
ra      ? 160334 160    5       raintr          # secondary mscp

The CQD220 is at 172150 and the RXDX3 is at 160334. Is 172154 a valid
MSCP address? It must be, cause it works for you. The docs I have
show 160334.

On booting the 11/73 and starting 2.11 BSD the following occurs:

DU8 and DU9 at boot are the RX50 drives on the second controller. The
floppy in DU8 contains the installation standalone utilities that were
part of the installation tape, including icheck.

------------
Testing in progress - Please wait
Memory Size is 1024 K Bytes
9 Step memory test
  Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Message 04      Entering Dialog mode

Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: B DU8

Trying DU8

Starting system from DU8

.83Boot from ra(1,0,0) at 0160334
.: ra(1,0,0)/icheck
.ra(1,0,0) err op=89 sts=3
.ra(1,0,0) !online
.: ra(0,0,0)/unix
.Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150
.
2.11 BSD UNIX #10: Fri Nov 24 16:52:18 PST 2000
    root at mars.chd-net:/usr/src/sys/MARS

ra0: Ver 6 mod 13
ra0: RA82  size=1295849
attaching qe0 csr 174440
qe0: DEC DELQA addr 08:00:2b:0e:24:7c
attaching lo0

phys mem  = 1048576
avail mem = 725696
user mem  = 307200

February  1 23:38:41 init: configure system

hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
ra 1 csr 160334 vector 160 vectorset attached
rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ts 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
#
# mount /dev/ra8a /mnt/rx0
ra1: Ver 4 mod 3
ra8 st=3 sb=0 fl=0 en=9
/dev/ra8a on /mnt/rx0: Input/output error
: not found
: not found
# mount /dev/ra9a /mnt/rx0
ra9 st=3 sb=0 fl=0 en=9
/dev/ra9a on /mnt/rx0: Input/output error
#
>
>         It's pretty simple and regular once one knows what is going on ;)
>
I agree that it is pretty simple as you describe it and it is what I
expected,
but it does not seem to be as I see it here. Could the problem be that I
am
booting from the second controller? Should all the controllers be
jumpered for
unit 0? Now that I think about it, it may be the boot firmware that is
uncooperative. If I set the RQDX3 for unit 0, I cannot boot from the
second
controller's first disk, but I can from the second. So, I should set all
the
controller unit numbers to 0. The restriction is that the boot device
must
be visible to the firmware. Make sense?

...

OK, I moved the RQDX3 to unit 0, and the boot floppy to the second
drive.
The boot is then:

--------------
Testing in progress - Please wait
Memory Size is 1024 K Bytes
9 Step memory test
  Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Message 04      Entering Dialog mode

Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: B DU1

Trying DU1

Starting system from DU1

.83Boot from ra(1,1,0) at 0160334
.: ra(0,0,0)/unix
.Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150
.
2.11 BSD UNIX #10: Fri Nov 24 16:52:18 PST 2000
    root at mars.chd-net:/usr/src/sys/MARS

ra0: Ver 6 mod 13
ra0: RA82  size=1295849
attaching qe0 csr 174440
qe0: DEC DELQA addr 08:00:2b:0e:24:7c
attaching lo0

phys mem  = 1048576
avail mem = 725696
user mem  = 307200

February  1 23:38:41 init: configure system

hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
ra 1 csr 160334 vector 160 vectorset attached
rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ts 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
# mount /dev/ra9a /mnt/rx0
ra1: Ver 4 mod 3
ra9: RX50  size=800
# ls /mnt/rx0
boot        icheck      restor      unix
disklabel   mkfs        rx50toroot
#
>         Steven Schultz
>         sms at to.gd-es.com
Thanks for helping me work through this. It looks like the boot device
must be
within the first 8 devices that the firmware can see, but 2.11 BSD wants
all
the unit number jumpers set to 0.

Chuck Dickman
chd at nktelco.net
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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Feb  5 12:35:54 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:35:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73
Message-ID: <200102050235.f152Zs901247@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: "Chuck Dickman" <chd at nktelco.net>
> What you described here makes sense and was my first impression of
> what should happen, but my experience is different.

	I'm wondering if the console/boot firmware might not be the
	cause of some of the confusion.

> My /etc/dtab is:
> 
> ra      ? 172150 154    5       raintr          # uda50, rqdx1/2/3
> ra      ? 160334 160    5       raintr          # secondary mscp

	Looks good.   With 2.11 you can, if you want, leave the interrupt
	vector as 0, the kernel will allocate an available vector and
	tell the MSCP controller what vector to use.

> The CQD220 is at 172150 and the RXDX3 is at 160334. Is 172154 a valid 
> MSCP address? It must be, cause it works for you. The docs I have 
> show 160334.
	
	As long as it doesn't conflict with anything else on the system it's
	valid ;-)   The system came with the RQDX3 and I worked with the RD54
	for a while before adding the UC08 - when I added the UC08 I just picked
	the next free CSR which happened to be 172154.

> DU8 and DU9 at boot are the RX50 drives on the second controller. The
> floppy in DU8 contains the installation standalone utilities that were
> part of the installation tape, including icheck.
> 
> ------------
> .83Boot from ra(1,0,0) at 0160334
> .: ra(1,0,0)/icheck

	It probably doesn't hurt anything but I would leave off the '/'

> .ra(1,0,0) err op=89 sts=3
> .ra(1,0,0) !online

	op=89 is the "ONLINE" command and a status of 3 means the unit didn't
	go 'online'.   That is very strange since 'boot' was obviously loaded
	from the drive/controller.

	What I am wondering now is:  does the boot monitor pass 0 or 8 thru
	as the unit number?   If it's expecting 8 or 9 then that might be
	the problem because boot and the 2.11 kernel only deal with 0 thru 7

> .: ra(0,0,0)/unix
> .Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150
> .
> hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
> ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
> ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
> ra 1 csr 160334 vector 160 vectorset attached

	Ok, that looks encouraging.   

> # mount /dev/ra8a /mnt/rx0
> ra1: Ver 4 mod 3
> ra8 st=3 sb=0 fl=0 en=9
> /dev/ra8a on /mnt/rx0: Input/output error
> : not found
> : not found
> # mount /dev/ra9a /mnt/rx0
> ra9 st=3 sb=0 fl=0 en=9
> /dev/ra9a on /mnt/rx0: Input/output error

	Same as before - the "online" command is failing for reason(s)
	unknown as yet.

> I agree that it is pretty simple as you describe it and it is what I expected,
> but it does not seem to be as I see it here. Could the problem be that I am
> booting from the second controller? Should all the controllers be jumpered 

	I boot from the second controller all the time.  If I weren't so
	lazy (and the BA23 so narrow and hard to work in ;)) I'd have swapped
	the UC08 and RQDX3 around a long time ago.   As it is now I have to
	hit ^C during the POST and at the BOOT> prompt I enter "172154 DU 0"
	to boot from the second controller.

> for unit 0? Now that I think about it, it may be the boot firmware that is 

	Yes, if given a choice (and I don't know how this is done) all the
	controllers need to start from 0.   If the "base unit" of a controller
	is 8 then I think the problem is that the controller is expecting
	values such as 8, 9, etc in the 'mscp_unit' part of the MSCP packet.
	That would explain the failure to "online unit 0" - the controller
	is expecting to be told "online unit 8".

> controller's first disk, but I can from the second. So, I should set all the 
> controller unit numbers to 0.  The restriction is that the boot device
> must be visible to the firmware. Make sense?

	Yes.   I think the 'restriction' in this case is 2.11 - it doesn't
	know how to deal with units other than 0 thru 7.

> Thanks for helping me work through this. It looks like the boot device
> must be within the first 8 devices that the firmware can see, but 2.11 BSD 
> wants all the unit number jumpers set to 0.

	Quite welcome!   The boot monitor can load anything, but once 'boot'
	(or the kernel) is loaded they do not know how to deal with unit=8.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From chd at nktelco.net  Mon Feb  5 13:20:27 2001
From: chd at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 22:20:27 -0500
Subject: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73
References: <200102050235.f152Zs901247@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <3A7E1BFB.98767635@nktelco.net>

"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
> 
> > "Chuck Dickman" wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for helping me work through this. It looks like the boot device
> > must be within the first 8 devices that the firmware can see, but 2.11 BSD
> > wants all the unit number jumpers set to 0.
> 
>         Quite welcome!   The boot monitor can load anything, but once 'boot'
>         (or the kernel) is loaded they do not know how to deal with unit=8.
I think that was what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

Thanks.
> 
>         Steven Schultz
>         sms at moe.2bsd.com

Now if someone could help be double my memory. :-)

Chuck Dickman
chd at nktelco.net

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From pino at dohd.org  Mon Feb  5 22:37:53 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:37:53 +0100
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
Message-ID: <20010205133753.A23455@mud.stack.nl>

Hi.

A friendly user pointed me to this obvious error:

(part of a typescript, an FTP session to my PDP, running 2.11BSD)

ncftp /usr/home/martijnb> ls -la foobar.c
-rw-r--r--  1 martijnb users         106 Jan 15 15:25 foobar.c
ncftp /usr/home/martijnb> quote mdtm foobar.c
191010115144152

(mdtm should return the datestamp, in the form yyyymmddhhmm. ftpd
thinks that it is 19101, and chops off the last digit of the filedate..)

Things go wrong when you try to get an allready existing file:

ncftp /usr/home/martijnb > get foobar.c

The local file "foobar.c" already exists.
	Local:           133 bytes, dated Mon Feb  5 13:25:59 2001.
	Remote:          133 bytes, dated Thu Oct 13 04:44:15 1910.

	[O]verwrite?  [A]ppend to?  [S]kip?  [N]ew Name?  > 

Hmm.

I'll see if I can figure out a quick patch :)

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From dave at fgh.geac.com.au  Mon Feb  5 23:09:49 2001
From: dave at fgh.geac.com.au (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:09:49 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
In-Reply-To: <20010205133753.A23455@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102052354420.5033-100000@fgh.au.geac.com>

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Martijn van Buul wrote:

> ncftp /usr/home/martijnb> quote mdtm foobar.c
> 191010115144152
>
> (mdtm should return the datestamp, in the form yyyymmddhhmm. ftpd
> thinks that it is 19101, and chops off the last digit of the filedate..)

Yep, that's a sure sign, which (cough, cough) I have personally seen on
some (cough, cough) Y2K-compliant software supported by (cough, cough)
A Large Software Company.  No, I wasn't personally responsible for that
code :-)

> I'll see if I can figure out a quick patch :)

Beware of the Y2K.1 bug :-(

Synopsis:

In order to overcome the Y2K bug, we implement a quick fix, because we
are too lazy to do it properly:

IF last two digits == '00' THEN make first two digits == '20'.
// Because we're gonna retire this stuff after 2000.

So what happens in 2001?  Well, you get 1901, 19101, etc.  Sigh...  Isn't
that fix what got us into trouble in the first place?

Disclaimer: None of Geac software exhibited the Y2K.1 bug, since we tested
it thoroughly, for years 2000, 2001, etc: I make no comment on Y2K.

-- 
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493  Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From pino at dohd.org  Mon Feb  5 23:27:46 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:27:46 +0100
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
In-Reply-To: <20010205133753.A23455@mud.stack.nl>; from pino@dohd.org on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 01:37:53PM +0100
References: <20010205133753.A23455@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <20010205142746.A24731@mud.stack.nl>

Martijn van Buul wrote:
> I'll see if I can figure out a quick patch :)

Done.

A diff for /usr/src/libexec/ftpd/ftpcmd.y:

461,463c461,464
< 					    "19%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d",
< 					    t->tm_year, t->tm_mon+1, t->tm_mday,
< 					    t->tm_hour, t->tm_min, t->tm_sec);
---
> 					    "%04d%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d",
> 					    t->tm_year+1900, t->tm_mon+1, 
> 					    t->tm_mday, t->tm_hour, t->tm_min, 
> 					    t->tm_sec);

Miraculously, this *reduces* the size of the binary by a whopping two 
bytes ;)

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Feb  5 23:50:37 2001
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:50:37 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
In-Reply-To: <20010205142746.A24731@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102060048000.5033-100000@fgh.au.geac.com>

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Martijn van Buul wrote:

> < 					    "19%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d",
> < 					    t->tm_year, t->tm_mon+1, t->tm_mday,

Dead giveaway...

> Miraculously, this *reduces* the size of the binary by a whopping two
> bytes ;)

Well, we can find a job for you in writing PDP-11 bootstraps :-)

-- 
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493  Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk  Tue Feb  6 01:46:48 2001
From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk (robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:46:48 +0000
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
Message-ID: <002569EA.00579852.00@postoffice.co.uk>



Dear All,
IIRC the start of this thread stated that this was on a 2.11 system.  If this
was so has anyone submitted the patch to Steve Schultz for consideration as a
formal update?

Appologies if this has already been done.

Rgds

Robin



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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Feb  6 02:51:34 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:51:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
Message-ID: <200102051651.f15GpYd11283@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

> From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk
> IIRC the start of this thread stated that this was on a 2.11 system.  If this
> was so has anyone submitted the patch to Steve Schultz for consideration as a
> formal update?

	Don't worry - I saw the thread.   Consider the patch submitted :)

	I did find it fascinating that the bug slipped thru since at one time
	a (obviously not detailed enough) scan of the system for 'tm_year'
	references was done.

	Thanks!

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From pino at dohd.org  Tue Feb  6 07:24:46 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:24:46 +0100
Subject: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+
Message-ID: <20010205222446.A3608@mud.stack.nl>

After 52 days, my uPDP 11/53+ has suddenly been acting rather strange.
/usr/include got 'replaced' by /usr/new, to be precise. At the time,
I was the only user. Seeing this, I immediately halted the system,
expecting a load of file system errors upon boot. None showed up, and
/usr/include is back to itself again. However, programs which *used*
to be running perfectly (like my work-in-progress ps) suddenly fail,
with a "not enough memory for saving info".

Any hints?

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Feb  6 10:35:17 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:35:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+
Message-ID: <200102060035.f160ZHg18114@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Martijn van Buul <pino at dohd.org>
> After 52 days, my uPDP 11/53+ has suddenly been acting rather strange.
> /usr/include got 'replaced' by /usr/new, to be precise. At the time,

	Oops!   

> I was the only user. Seeing this, I immediately halted the system,
> expecting a load of file system errors upon boot. None showed up, and
> /usr/include is back to itself again. However, programs which *used*
> to be running perfectly (like my work-in-progress ps) suddenly fail,
> with a "not enough memory for saving info".

> Any hints?

	How much memory is on the system now after the reboot.   The only
	thing that pops into mind is that the system is running without
	enough memory.    If part of the memory on the system dropped out
	earlier that would (possibly) explain the strange behaviour was
	seen.   Rebooting/reseting the system would cause the system to
	recount memory.

	A program can get 'ENOMEM' as an error two ways: 1) exceeding the
	maximum 64KB dataspace (stack + data) or 2) the system has run out
	of swap or the maps ('coremap' and/or 'swapmap') have become too
	fragmented.

	Two commands that can be useful in obtaining more information are

		sysctl hw

	and 

		pstat -s

	"sysctl hw" will give several lines of output - the two you'd be
	interested in are 

	hw.physmem = 2097152
	hw.usermem = 415744

	'physmem' is the amount of memory physically present and 'usermem' is
	the amount current free and available for user programs.

	"pstat -s" will give a swap space usage summary.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at Moe.2bsd.com

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From pino at dohd.org  Tue Feb  6 17:39:28 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:39:28 +0100
Subject: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+
In-Reply-To: <200102060035.f160ZHg18114@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:35:17PM -0800
References: <200102060035.f160ZHg18114@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20010206083928.A15141@mud.stack.nl>

Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
> 
> > From: Martijn van Buul <pino at dohd.org>
> > After 52 days, my uPDP 11/53+ has suddenly been acting rather strange.
> > /usr/include got 'replaced' by /usr/new, to be precise. At the time,
> 
> 	Oops!   


Well, strange things are afoot indeed. About the same time, 1 machine
crashed (A DEC Alpha running OpenBSD), 2 started acting very strangely,
and had to be rebooted (My PDP, and a Wintel box running Windows 2000),
and a 4th machine (A Wintel box running Minix-VMD) suddenly had some
problems reading his harddisk and using its network (but recovered). The
strange thing is that these machines aren't related in any way but one:
they're standing quite near to eachother. Do I hear EMC somewhere?

 
> > Any hints?
> 
> 	How much memory is on the system now after the reboot.

1.5 MB. 798 Kilowords. 

>       The only thing that pops into mind is that the system is running
>       without enough memory.    If part of the memory on the system dropped
>       out earlier that would (possibly) explain the strange behaviour was
> 	seen.   Rebooting/reseting the system would cause the system to
> 	recount memory.

Well, the machine had 1.5 MB before it crashed.. It's doubtlessly some
memory fault, but it *seems* to be a temporal one.

> 
> 	"sysctl hw" will give several lines of output - the two you'd be
> 	interested in are 
> 
> 	hw.physmem = 2097152

hw.physmem = 1572864

> 	hw.usermem = 415744

hw.usermem = 313472

> 	'physmem' is the amount of memory physically present and 'usermem' is
> 	the amount current free and available for user programs.

Should be enough. 'cc' works without problems - only my ps with debug
info seems to be affected; it might not be a memory issue, but a "ps can't
determine the right amount of processes"-issue.. 

I've checked it, and this seems to be the case. Ps thinks that there are
0 processes running, and does a 
 outargs = (struct psout *)calloc(nproc, sizeof(struct psout));
on that. With 'nproc' being 0, this returns a NULL pointer, but doesn't
mean that the process is out of memory.

Having no ps is very annoying; finding back those 4 children spawned
by a httpd can be a nuisance then. pstat -p works, but it isn't comfortable:)

> 	"pstat -s" will give a swap space usage summary.

15/59 swapmap entries
910 kbytes swap used, 6263 kbytes free

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Feb  7 02:36:03 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:36:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+
Message-ID: <200102061636.f16Ga3301595@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

> Well, strange things are afoot indeed. About the same time, 1 machine...
> they're standing quite near to eachother. Do I hear EMC somewhere?

	Time to increase the shielding around the computer room, eh? ;-)

> Well, the machine had 1.5 MB before it crashed.. It's doubtlessly some
> memory fault, but it *seems* to be a temporal one.

	I do not think it is a memory/hardware problem - that was just a
	guess (not a very good one at that ;)).

> hw.usermem = 313472

	That's fine.

> Should be enough. 'cc' works without problems - only my ps with debug

	What about the standard 'ps' that came with the system?

> info seems to be affected; it might not be a memory issue, but a "ps can't
> determine the right amount of processes"-issue.. 
> I've checked it, and this seems to be the case. Ps thinks that there are
> 0 processes running, and does a 
>  outargs = (struct psout *)calloc(nproc, sizeof(struct psout));

	Ah, ok - malloc() used to actually return a non-NULL pointer when
	presented with a size request of 0.  That was an error and was changed
	(I forget the exact update/patch number).  There were a couple programs
	in the system that relied on the old behaviour and those had to be
	fixed.

> on that. With 'nproc' being 0, this returns a NULL pointer, but doesn't
> mean that the process is out of memory.

	Right, the ENOMEM error was overloaded by malloc().  An argument
	can be made that EINVAL should have been returned instead by malloc()
	if 0 was passed in.

> Having no ps is very annoying; finding back those 4 children spawned
> by a httpd can be a nuisance then. pstat -p works, but it isn't comfortable:)

	Are you are using the traditional 'nlist()' method of reading
	the kernel symbol table to look for 'nproc' and '_proc'?  If so
	is there a permissions problem?  /dev/*mem needs to be group=kmem, mode
	640, the /unix image should be mode 644 and the 'ps' program setgid
	to kmem.   If there is a problem reading the kernel symbol table
	then 'nproc' will remain 0 which is what you're seeing.

	Another way of examining some kernel variables (proc table, file table,
	etc) is with the "sysctl" call.  It's much faster since it doesn't
	have to do a sequential scan of the /unix symbol table.   You can
	look in /usr/src/ucb/w.c at the function 'readpr()' to see how to
	examine the proc table using sysctl.  

	Steve


From pino at dohd.org  Thu Feb  8 06:22:52 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:22:52 +0100
Subject: [pups] /bin/ps (and /var/run/psdatabase) corrupt in installation set?
Message-ID: <20010207212252.B28455@mud.stack.nl>

Oy.

I kind of solved my problems with ps, just by recompiling the 
source.. I think I've got reasons to believe that /bin/ps as distributed
in the installation set on minnie is corrupt; it only dumps core.

As a side note, /var/run/psdatabase is corrupt too; normally this wouldn't
matter (since ps -U recompiles this, and since ps -U is run in /etc/rc),
but since ps dumps core...

Anyway; If I would've known about /var/run/psdatabase, it might have 
prevented me from searching a non-existant bug during the last few months :)

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Feb 15 11:33:32 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:33:32 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Checksums in the UNIX Archive
Message-ID: <200102150133.f1F1XWX40569@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

----- Forwarded message from Fred N. van Kempen -----

Warren,
False alert... Ultrix-11 V3.1 source tape file is NOT corrupted.  My WinZIP
was - I use NT at work, download stuff, and take it home with me, to load onto
the Unix machines. The Unix boxes have no problem with the files...

----- End of forwarded message from Fred N. van Kempen -----

Hi all, I'm back from holidays. With regards to corrupt files in the
UNIX Archive, yes it looks like I have had a few hit. I'll check through
my old backups for a clean version of Ken Wellsch's 6th Edition disk image.

There is a checksums file in the archive: /checksums, with MD5 checksums
for all files. If you do suspect a file is damaged, please check to see
if the MD5 checksum matches that in the /checksums file.

Also, has anybody tried out the VTserver 2.0 alpha program?! I'm going to
be flat out here at work for a month or two, but I will try to add support
for things other than plain copying of disk images.

Cheers,
	Warren


From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Thu Feb 15 13:01:45 2001
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:01:45 +0100
Subject: [pups] RE: Unix Archive mirror site offer
Message-ID: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32C31@MWNT4>

Warren,

Good news so far.  I did some work on VTserver 2.0, and added the uODT code
so it
uploads the PDP-11 boot code to the machine and gets it going.  That works
fine..
"copy" gets loaded, and I can transfer stuff from and to the machine's RX50
and 
RD51 units.

My biggest worry next, of course, is using an emulator to emulate my machine
(which
is a MicroPDP-11/23, by the way) and its disks, and build a working set of
file 
systems.  Those I can then transfer to the raw disk.

When playing, I noticed that the RD51 is a plain Seagate ST412 MFM drive...
did anyone
try to use other MFM disks with the RQDX series controllers?  I can probably
get some
very cheap ST251 40MB drives.. ;)

--fred


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Warren Toomey [mailto:wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au]
> Sent: dinsdag 13 februari 2001 2:22
> To: Fred N. van Kempen
> Subject: Re: Unix Archive mirror site offer
> 
> 
> In article by Fred N. van Kempen:
> > Here's a promise... if I can get my MicroVAX 3400 back up 
> (on Ultrix 4.4),
> > I'll run the archive on that box... (pups.microwalt.net or
> > tuhs.microwalt.net)
> > so all the old stuff is hosted on old stuff... otherwise 
> it's going to be a
> > Sun SPARCstation Classic- also an old box, but not quite as old :)
> 
> Excellent. I believe Caldera have bought the rights to UNIX 
> from SCO, and
> I"ve heard rumours that they might drop the ``click on the 
> license'' thing,
> so if that happens we can make the archive available with no 
> passwords.
>  
> > Also: I am working with Bill Grunshannon and Steven Schultz 
> on getting my
> > own
> > MicroPDP-11/23 back up... we need to include your VTserver 
> stuff into the
> > Ultrix-11 source tree, recompile parts, move into binary 
> tree, and create a
> > new tape which I can then load.  Bill has a working 11/73 
> with Ultrix-11 on
> > it,
> > and also has an 11/93 with same.
> > 
> 
> My new VTserver can load in and write entire disk images now, 
> so it should
> be usable to install an Ultrix disk image.
> 
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Vtserver.
> 
> I'll be back at work tomorrow or the nxet day.
> 
> Cheers,
> 	Warren
> 


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From pino at dohd.org  Fri Feb 16 18:11:02 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:11:02 +0100
Subject: [pups] RE: Unix Archive mirror site offer
In-Reply-To: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32C31@MWNT4>; from Fred.van.Kempen@microwalt.nl on Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 04:01:45AM +0100
References: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32C31@MWNT4>
Message-ID: <20010216091102.A26535@mud.stack.nl>

Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
 
> When playing, I noticed that the RD51 is a plain Seagate ST412 MFM drive...
> did anyone try to use other MFM disks with the RQDX series controllers?  I
> can probably get some very cheap ST251 40MB drives.. ;)

I've done exactly the same thing (but it only was an ST225, AKA RD31) on
an RQDX3 controller. You need the XXDP 2.5 diagnostic kit for that. Having
a couple of 5.25" HD diskdrives really helps. Some of these drives (the
older, the better ;) can be used as RX33 drive, which greatly reduces the
problem of creating a XXDP bootdisk with the needed utilities, since you
can write these disks in a (second :) 5.25" drive on a standard PC. 

Finding a supply of 1.2 MB 5.25" disks can be a bigger problem - I'm 
very happy with my newly found pack of *fresh* disks.

I may still have such a diskimage floating around somewhere (Yup, I seem
to have). The basic idea is to low-level format the MFM drive, and make it
look like a genuine DEC drive. This is a lot easier if the drives you
want to use were also sold as DEC drives (which is the case with the
ST251 - it's also known as the RD32). If not, you'll have to provide
a lot more information about the drive - never really tried that. 

This said, I sucessfully low-levelled a 21MB Miniscribe (with the same
CHS-layout as a ST225) using the RD31 parameters.

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Feb 16 19:15:20 2001
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:15:20 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] RE: Unix Archive mirror site offer
In-Reply-To: <20010216091102.A26535@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <200102160915.KAA11956@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 16 Feb, Martijn van Buul wrote:

[third party disks on RQDX}
> I've done exactly the same thing (but it only was an ST225, AKA RD31) on
> an RQDX3 controller. You need the XXDP 2.5 diagnostic kit for that.
Could this be placed in the archive? It would be nice to have this
public available.

> Having a couple of 5.25" HD diskdrives really helps. Some of these 
> drives (the older, the better ;) can be used as RX33 drive
I connected a generic Mitzumi 5.25" FDD to the RQDX3 in my MicroVAX III
and it just worked. Even booting from it was no problem.
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Feb 16 21:11:33 2001
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:11:33 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
Message-ID: <200102161111.MAA12144@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Hi.

I have two PDP11/73 CPUs (M8192). On one module is the 40 pin socket
empty. On the other module is a 40 pin Chip labeld 21-21858 in the
socket. What chip is that?
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk  Fri Feb 16 21:32:49 2001
From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk (robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:32:49 +0000
Subject: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
Message-ID: <002569F5.00405BE2.00@postoffice.co.uk>



FP11 floating point processor (I think)



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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sat Feb 17 03:20:02 2001
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:20:02 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
In-Reply-To: <002569F5.00405BE2.00@postoffice.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200102161720.SAA12899@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 16 Feb, robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk wrote:

> FP11 floating point processor (I think)
I thought the FPU is part of the J11 chip? Or is this extra chip just
faster?
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/



From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Sat Feb 17 04:47:24 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:47:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Making disk images and Ultrix-32
In-Reply-To: <200102161720.SAA12899@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102161339570.17906-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>


Two questions/observations. 

The first is only tangentially on topic, but loosely related to
my recent attempts to revive Ultrix-11.  Is there anywhere that
is, or is interested in, archiving versions of Ultrix-32 for the
VAX??  I would hate to see these become as scarce as Ultrix-11 
was.  We almost lost that one.  I have numerous TK50's of Ultrix-32
software some of which actually loads.

Which brings me to my next and much more on topic question.

How does one go about creating a .dsk image from a real device??
Is it just a dd of the raw device or is there some software needed
to make the move??  And on a further note, if I made a .dsk of the
RA81 I currently have Ultrix-11 running from, are there any of the
emulators that would be able to use this??  If so, I would be glad
to clean it up and send it to Warren for the archive.  (Assuming
I can use the Ultrix-32 system that shares these disks to make the
image.)

All the best.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From wkb at freebie.demon.nl  Sat Feb 17 06:10:51 2001
From: wkb at freebie.demon.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:10:51 +0100
Subject: [pups] Making disk images and Ultrix-32
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102161339570.17906-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>; from bill@cs.scranton.edu on Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 01:47:24PM -0500
References: <200102161720.SAA12899@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102161339570.17906-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <20010216211051.A12098@freebie.demon.nl>

On Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 01:47:24PM -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
> Two questions/observations. 
> 
> The first is only tangentially on topic, but loosely related to
> my recent attempts to revive Ultrix-11.  Is there anywhere that
> is, or is interested in, archiving versions of Ultrix-32 for the
> VAX??  I would hate to see these become as scarce as Ultrix-11 
> was.  We almost lost that one.  I have numerous TK50's of Ultrix-32
> software some of which actually loads.

Is Ultrix-32 covered by the standard license from SCO? And did DEQ
release it to the world under the same conditions as Ultrix-11?

I think I have recent Ultrix-32 on CDROM here somewhere.

Wilko

-- 
|   / o / /  _  	 Arnhem, The Netherlands    	email: wilko at freebsd.org
|/|/ / / /( (_) Bulte	 http://www.freebsd.org 	http://www.nlfug.nl

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Feb 17 06:54:45 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:54:45 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Making disk images and Ultrix-32
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102161339570.17906-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
 from Bill Gunshannon at "Feb 16, 2001 01:47:24 pm"
Message-ID: <200102162054.f1GKsjk49341@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Bill Gunshannon:
> Two questions/observations. 
> 
> The first is only tangentially on topic, but loosely related to
> my recent attempts to revive Ultrix-11.  Is there anywhere that
> is, or is interested in, archiving versions of Ultrix-32 for the
> VAX??  I would hate to see these become as scarce as Ultrix-11 
> was.  We almost lost that one.  I have numerous TK50's of Ultrix-32
> software some of which actually loads.

Ultrix-32 isn't covered by the SCO license (well, they didn't create it),
and we haven't obtained a release from DEC/Compaq, unlike Ultrix-11. So
while hidden away in the Archive are various versions of Ultrix-32, I
cannot make them available.

Does anybody have contacts inside Compaq so we could persue a release?
 
> How does one go about creating a .dsk image from a real device??

Use dd in single-user mode and dump it to a tape :-) That's all.


> And on a further note, if I made a .dsk of the
> RA81 I currently have Ultrix-11 running from, are there any of the
> emulators that would be able to use this??  If so, I would be glad
> to clean it up and send it to Warren for the archive.
> bill

Yes please!

	Warren

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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Sat Feb 17 06:54:00 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:54:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Making disk images and Ultrix-32
In-Reply-To: <200102162054.f1GKsjk49341@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102161550380.17906-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>

On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Warren Toomey wrote:

> In article by Bill Gunshannon:
> > Two questions/observations. 
> > 
> > The first is only tangentially on topic, but loosely related to
> > my recent attempts to revive Ultrix-11.  Is there anywhere that
> > is, or is interested in, archiving versions of Ultrix-32 for the
> > VAX??  I would hate to see these become as scarce as Ultrix-11 
> > was.  We almost lost that one.  I have numerous TK50's of Ultrix-32
> > software some of which actually loads.
> 
> Ultrix-32 isn't covered by the SCO license (well, they didn't create it),
> and we haven't obtained a release from DEC/Compaq, unlike Ultrix-11. So
> while hidden away in the Archive are various versions of Ultrix-32, I
> cannot make them available.

OK, I didn't know.  I had thought that Ultrix-32 was also derived from
32V, but maybe not. I'll have to hold onto my tapes a little longer.

> 
> Does anybody have contacts inside Compaq so we could persue a release?
>  

Hmmmm.  I wonder if anyone on comp.os.vms might know??

> > How does one go about creating a .dsk image from a real device??
> 
> Use dd in single-user mode and dump it to a tape :-) That's all.

To a tape??  What about just dumping it to a file on another disk??

> 
> 
> > And on a further note, if I made a .dsk of the
> > RA81 I currently have Ultrix-11 running from, are there any of the
> > emulators that would be able to use this??  If so, I would be glad
> > to clean it up and send it to Warren for the archive.
> > bill
> 
> Yes please!

Which emulator might I be able to test this out on??  Or do I need to
find something other than an RA81 to dump??

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Sat Feb 17 07:33:52 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:33:52 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Making disk images
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102161550380.17906-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
 from Bill Gunshannon at "Feb 16, 2001 03:54:00 pm"
Message-ID: <200102162133.f1GLXqc59893@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Bill Gunshannon:
> > Use dd in single-user mode and dump it to a tape :-) That's all.
> To a tape??  What about just dumping it to a file on another disk??

Yep, that works too!

> > > And on a further note, if I made a .dsk of the
> > > RA81 I currently have Ultrix-11 running from, are there any of the
> > > emulators that would be able to use this??
> > Yes please!
> 
> Which emulator might I be able to test this out on??  Or do I need to
> find something other than an RA81 to dump??
> bill

What PDP-11 model do you have? Then I can tell you what emulators will
be suitable.

Thanks,
	Warren

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From bqt at update.uu.se  Sat Feb 17 09:14:22 2001
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:14:22 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
In-Reply-To: <200102161720.SAA12899@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102170013070.28116-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de wrote:

> On 16 Feb, robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk wrote:
> 
> > FP11 floating point processor (I think)
> I thought the FPU is part of the J11 chip? Or is this extra chip just
> faster?

It's faster. There is FP11 microcode in the J11, but it's really slow from
what I gathered. The separate FP11 could be regarded more as an
accelerator.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sun Feb 18 03:24:01 2001
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:24:01 +0000
Subject: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
In-Reply-To: <200102161720.SAA12899@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <002569F5.00405BE2.00@postoffice.co.uk>
 <200102161720.SAA12899@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <3sLM7KAxOrj6Ew8r@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <200102161720.SAA12899 at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, jkunz at unixag-
kl.fh-kl.de writes
>On 16 Feb, robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk wrote:
>
>> FP11 floating point processor (I think)
>I thought the FPU is part of the J11 chip? Or is this extra chip just
>faster?
J11 does it in microcode. When the FP11 is plugged in then it does it
faster.

Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome


From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Sun Feb 18 12:43:51 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:43:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
In-Reply-To: <3sLM7KAxOrj6Ew8r@ruffnready.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102172140040.19293-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>


Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what is being discussed here, but
I think the difference is that without the FP11 all you have are
4 simple Floating Point Instructions.  FADD, FSUB, FMUL and FDIV.
The FP11 adds a number of additional Instructions.  I have never
had a machine with the FP11 (Hmmmm, wonder if my new 11/93 has it?)
so I don't know them off the top of my head, but my Macro-11 book
is near at hand if anybody wants me to look it up.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From bqt at update.uu.se  Sun Feb 18 19:19:45 2001
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:19:45 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102172140040.19293-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102181017040.18540-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

> 
> Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what is being discussed here, but
> I think the difference is that without the FP11 all you have are
> 4 simple Floating Point Instructions.  FADD, FSUB, FMUL and FDIV.

No, that's the FIS instructions. They are only available on the 11/35,
11/40, LSI-11 and perhaps some other model that I don't remember.

The J11 has the F11 in microcode. The FP11 for the J11 is an accelerator.

> The FP11 adds a number of additional Instructions.  I have never
> had a machine with the FP11 (Hmmmm, wonder if my new 11/93 has it?)
> so I don't know them off the top of my head, but my Macro-11 book
> is near at hand if anybody wants me to look it up.

If someone wants the full F11 instruction set, I think it's available on
the net. Anyhow, yes, your 11/93 have the F11 instruction set. I also
think that the 11/93 cpu always have the accelerator option.
(Hmmm, I'd like to get my hands on an 11/93 CPU, anyone have an extra? :-)

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sun Feb 18 05:31:23 2001
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:31:23 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102170013070.28116-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <200102171931.f1HJVNZ00879@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 17 Feb, Johnny Billquist wrote:

> It's faster. There is FP11 microcode in the J11, but it's really slow from
> what I gathered. The separate FP11 could be regarded more as an
> accelerator.
Ahhh, interesting to hear. 
I think this will be a nice machine. 11/73 with the FP accelerator, 4MB
RAM, DLV11-J, RQDX3 with RD54 (or later Dilog ESDI MSCP adapter with one
or two 300MB ESDI drives), TK50, DELQA all together in a BA23. So there
are only two things left: Boot (E)RPOM card and time to get 2.11BSD
installed. 
-- 



tschuess,
          Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz


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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Mon Feb 19 00:31:34 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:31:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] board id help and another Ultrix-11 update
In-Reply-To: <200102171931.f1HJVNZ00879@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102180918430.19293-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>


I have finally found the time to play with my 11/93 (the bad news is
it is an un-recognizable CPU for the Ultrix-11 install tape, but we'll
cross that bridge later.)  Other than the usual compliment of MicroPDP
boards (Ethernet, RQDX3) this one has a board made by a company called
"Data Systems Design".  The Model appears to be an 808836-05 Rev.K.
It has a 26pin Berg connector in one corner for which I do not have a
cable.  Now the big question. Is there anyone here who knows what this
card is and in particular what the wiring of the Berg connector looks
like??  Why you ask??  Because with this card in the machine thinks it
has an RL01/RL02 controller and an RX02 controller.  If this is some
kind of disk controller, I would love to know what disks it hooks up to.
BUt with only a single 26 pin connector, I can't imagine what disks it
would use.  If anyone has seen one of these or especially if you have
documentation, I would love to hear about it.

Also, here is another Ultrix-11 update.  In order to comply with the
KISS principle, I have opted for a simple RL02 based system to do my
image dumps.  Hopefully, in the next day or two I will be sending a
tar file to Warren for the archive that will contain a pair of RL02
images that comprise a simple bootable system for the 11/23 and if
that works, I am going to also try to make a TS11 tape image of the
install tape so that people can opt for whatever configuration suits
their taste.  I will send something to the list when I get this far.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From djenner at halcyon.com  Mon Feb 19 04:08:26 2001
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:08:26 -0800
Subject: [pups] board id help and another Ultrix-11 update
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102180918430.19293-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <3A900F9A.87F19B97@halcyon.com>

Bill,

The DSD card is likely for a DSD 880 system, which has one 8" floppy
and one (8"?) Winchester drive.  The combo emulates an RX02 and a
couple of RL01/RL02 drives.  The controller card is basically useless
unless you have the DSD chassis with the floppy, harddrive, and custom
electronics.  The DSD 880 is not uncommon, so you might be able to
find one around.

Dave 

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
> I have finally found the time to play with my 11/93 (the bad news is
> it is an un-recognizable CPU for the Ultrix-11 install tape, but we'll
> cross that bridge later.)  Other than the usual compliment of MicroPDP
> boards (Ethernet, RQDX3) this one has a board made by a company called
> "Data Systems Design".  The Model appears to be an 808836-05 Rev.K.
> It has a 26pin Berg connector in one corner for which I do not have a
> cable.  Now the big question. Is there anyone here who knows what this
> card is and in particular what the wiring of the Berg connector looks
> like??  Why you ask??  Because with this card in the machine thinks it
> has an RL01/RL02 controller and an RX02 controller.  If this is some
> kind of disk controller, I would love to know what disks it hooks up to.
> BUt with only a single 26 pin connector, I can't imagine what disks it
> would use.  If anyone has seen one of these or especially if you have
> documentation, I would love to hear about it.
> 
> Also, here is another Ultrix-11 update.  In order to comply with the
> KISS principle, I have opted for a simple RL02 based system to do my
> image dumps.  Hopefully, in the next day or two I will be sending a
> tar file to Warren for the archive that will contain a pair of RL02
> images that comprise a simple bootable system for the 11/23 and if
> that works, I am going to also try to make a TS11 tape image of the
> install tape so that people can opt for whatever configuration suits
> their taste.  I will send something to the list when I get this far.
> 
> bill
> 
> --
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
> bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton   |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>


From lars at nocrew.org  Mon Feb 19 19:40:05 2001
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: 19 Feb 2001 10:40:05 +0100
Subject: [pups] GNU binutils
In-Reply-To: "David C. Jenner"'s message of "Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:08:26 -0800"
Message-ID: <85u25r6mfe.fsf_-_@junk.nocrew.org>

Hello,

I just wanted to let you know that GNU binutils now supports PDP-11
processors and 2.11BSD binary file formats, at least to some degree.

Thanks to all the people who explained the details of the PDP-11.

More info:
        http://pdp11.nocrew.org/

-- 
http://lars.nocrew.org/

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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Tue Feb 20 02:36:00 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:36:00 -0500
Subject: [pups] Yet another Ultrix-11 update
References: <96oqh2$27dt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <200102191636.LAA21405@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>

[This is a courtesy copy of a message which was also posted to the
 newsgroup(s) shown in the header.]

For what it's worth, the time has finally arrived for others to
get a chance to play with Ultrix-11 again.  I have sent two RL02
images off to Warren to find their way intot he archives (if he
so desires!!)  They are not without their problems, however.  I
built them on a MicroPDP-11/23.
Configuration:
                CPU 11/23+
                Memory 3072K
                2 RL02 disks
                1 TS11 tape

Apparently, this means more to the Ultrix than to something likr
RT11.  Using the Supnik emulator, I was unable to build a kernel
and even vi core dumps.  But then, I am not really sure just what
the Supnik emulator is emulating.  Could it perhaps be emulating
a UNIBUS box and the fact that I do not have support for the map
be a problem??  We'll see eventually, I'm sure.

I tried the demo version of E11 but it lacks sufficient memory
for this to do anything. No vi (just says :too big"), no sysgen
(just hangs).  If anybody from Dbit is listening, I don't suppose
there's any chance you would be willing to give me copies of the
full DOS and Linux versions for educational use that I could use
to test this out??

I still haven't been able to get into the Begemot site, so I
don't know if it will work with their emulator or not.

Are there any others out there worth trying it with??

But, anyway, there you have it.  Warren wil probsabyl have it up
before too long.  I am willing to answer any questions I can for
people trying to get it running.

All the best.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   

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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Tue Feb 20 02:54:45 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:54:45 -0500
Subject: [pups] Re: Yet another Ultrix-11 update
References: <96oqh2$27dt$1@info.cs.uofs.edu> <96ri0n$pca$1@info.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <200102191654.LAA21413@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>

[This is a courtesy copy of a message which was also posted to the
 newsgroup(s) shown in the header.]

Looks like there may be a delay in getting Ultrix-11 to the PUPS
archives, my email to warren just bounced!!  Hopefully, he will
see this at some point and get back to me.  Sorry everybody.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Tue Feb 20 06:31:04 2001
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:31:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
Message-ID: <200102192031.MAA19280@chiton.ucsd.edu>

> From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Sat Feb 17 18:54 PST 2001
> X-Authentication-Warning: triangle.cs.uofs.edu: bill owned process doing -bs
> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:43:51 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill at cs.scranton.edu>
> To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: Re: [pups] What is a 21-21858 chip?
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm just misunderstanding what is being discussed here, but
> I think the difference is that without the FP11 all you have are
> 4 simple Floating Point Instructions.  FADD, FSUB, FMUL and FDIV.
> The FP11 adds a number of additional Instructions.  I have never
> had a machine with the FP11 (Hmmmm, wonder if my new 11/93 has it?)
> so I don't know them off the top of my head, but my Macro-11 book
> is near at hand if anybody wants me to look it up.

You're missing something.  The FADD FSUB FMUL FDIV was first used in
the 11/40 FIS (optional) floating-point instruction set.  It was later
implemented as an optional chip add-on for the LSI-11 and LSI-11/2.
Single-precision only, and stack oriented.

The 11/45 Floating-point Processor had about 30 instructions and had both
single-precision and double-precision modes, and a bunch of registers.
Typical instruction mnemonics include ADDF SUBF MULF DIVF MODF and
the same with last character changed to D for Double.

The LSI-11/23 optional FP chip followed the 11/45 FPP style.  The 11/73
CPU chip implemented the 11/45 FPP in microcode, and the 11/73 FPP
add-on implemented the 11/45 FPP in much faster microcode.

    carl



From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Feb 21 12:50:40 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:50:40 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Ultrix bootable disk images in UNIX Archive
Message-ID: <200102210250.f1L2oeq04843@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Hi all,
	Bill Gunshannon has sent me his Ultrix-3.1 disk images, and they
are now in the UNIX Archive at PDP-11/Boot_Images/Ultrix-3.1. I've knocked
up a short README from his e-mails too.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From iking at microsoft.com  Wed Feb 21 15:37:43 2001
From: iking at microsoft.com (Ian King)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:37:43 -0800
Subject: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
Message-ID: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C0@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

The good news is: Warren's VTServer 2.0 is currently copying a V6 image
onto an RK05 disk on my PDP-11/34.  I have no idea if the image will
actually boot; some notes in the archive say these images were built for
a /40, and the /34 is missing a couple of key instructions about memory
spaces.  But just getting the bits on the disk is a big first step.  
 
A couple of notes about this:

*	My upstream Unix host (with the image file) is a Linux machine.
I originally had the 1.2 kernel on it, but that kernel doesn't support
some of the POSIX macros that Warren uses; I upgraded to 2.2 and
everything works fine.  (The machine is an old 486 laptop that was 4MB;
I had to upgrade the memory on that for 2.2 to boot!)  
*	With a real PDP-11, I found it necessary to use the stty command
for no hardware handshaking.  On Linux 2.2 and using COM1, it's:

		stty 9600 cs8 clocal -crtscts < /dev/ttyS0 

*	I think .vtrc may have changed from the earlier version; I tried
to just hack a copy of the old one and found the format had changed.
The first line is the shell command to set the device parameters (as set
forth above), the second line is the device itself (e.g. /dev/ttyS0),
and the following lines are the "tape" records.  Warren, may I suggest
adding some text to the readme about this?  I had to figure it out....
*	BTW, .vtrc includes (in fact, requires) the stty line, which
configures the serial port.  Your instructions say that you must
configure the port before running vtserver -- not true.  
*	It's not extremely clear from the readme, but start VTServer
first, then the PDP-11 code.  It wasn't that hard to key in with the
programmer's panel.  :-) 

Please don't get me wrong, I'm grateful that you wrote this and not me.
:-)  But you did ask for feedback, and I'm sending this to the PUPS list
with the hope it will help anyone else with a similar situation.  

It's busily copying away; I'll let you know if I can boot what it
copies.  -- Ian 




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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Feb 21 15:59:26 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:59:26 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
In-Reply-To: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C0@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
 from Ian King at "Feb 20, 2001 09:37:43 pm"
Message-ID: <200102210559.f1L5xRY02765@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Ian King:
	[ some strange Microsoft e-mail format, Ian can you send
	  plain ASCII next time, ta! ]
 
> A couple of notes about this:
> *	With a real PDP-11, I found it necessary to use the stty command
> for no hardware handshaking.  On Linux 2.2 and using COM1, it's:
> 
> 		stty 9600 cs8 clocal -crtscts < /dev/ttyS0 
> 
> *	I think .vtrc may have changed from the earlier version; I tried
> to just hack a copy of the old one and found the format had changed.
> The first line is the shell command to set the device parameters (as set
> forth above), the second line is the device itself (e.g. /dev/ttyS0),
> and the following lines are the "tape" records.  Warren, may I suggest
> adding some text to the readme about this?  I had to figure it out....

Yep, that's documented in 
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Vtserver/vtserver/vtreadme.txt as follows:

   The file .vtrc is the server's configuration file. Lines beginning with
   hashes are ignored. The first (non-hashed) gives a shell command to set the
   correct speed and parity of the serial line. The second line names the
   serial device. Remaining lines name the fictitious tape's records, and
   should be tinyboot, copy, and the name of your disk image.

> *	It's not extremely clear from the readme, but start VTServer
> first, then the PDP-11 code.  It wasn't that hard to key in with the
> programmer's panel.  :-) 

Thanks, can you suggest changes to the above document which would help
to clarify this?

Also, Fred van Kempen has added commands to send down the bootstrap
code if the PDP-11 has ODT. I'll add this to the server once I get the
code from Fred.
 
> Please don't get me wrong, I'm grateful that you wrote this and not me.
> :-)  But you did ask for feedback, and I'm sending this to the PUPS list
> with the hope it will help anyone else with a similar situation.  

Thanks Ian, yes I'm always happy for feedback. You might also try the
two Ultrix RL02 images that Bill Gunshannon also donated to the archive,
as he booted these on an 11/23 ok.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Thu Feb 22 03:29:48 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:29:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] creating disk images
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102211224240.10168-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>



I know it is probably simple, but my experience is with the real
thing and this is the first time I have tried to do anything but
play with one of the emulators.

How do you create new blank disk images for the Supnik emulator??
In particular, I am trying to create some RM03's to give me more
room to work with Ultrix-11.  I am trying to make some install
kits on different media so that more people will be able to get
it, not only on emulators, but also on real machines, where it
is much more fun.  :-)

I have tried using the empty files the emulator creates.  I have
tried dd'ing /dev/zero into a file to the size of the disk.  I
have tried using format from xxdp.  Nothing seems to work.  Is there
a specific procedure to follow?? 

Any help greatly appreciated.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From iking at microsoft.com  Thu Feb 22 03:58:58 2001
From: iking at microsoft.com (Ian King)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:58:58 -0800
Subject: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
Message-ID: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C018EEBCC@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

Further good news: it boots!  I have a V6 image from Ken Wellsch
(thanks, Ken) booting on my 11/34.  Now I have lots to figure out....
-- Ian

PS: Warren, I was mailing from the Web access client, so it was probably
HTML - sorry.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Warren Toomey [mailto:wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au]
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:59 PM
To: Ian King
Cc: PDP-11 Unix Preservation Society
Subject: Re: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field


In article by Ian King:
	[ some strange Microsoft e-mail format, Ian can you send
	  plain ASCII next time, ta! ]
 
> A couple of notes about this:
> *	With a real PDP-11, I found it necessary to use the stty command
> for no hardware handshaking.  On Linux 2.2 and using COM1, it's:
> 
> 		stty 9600 cs8 clocal -crtscts < /dev/ttyS0 
> 
> *	I think .vtrc may have changed from the earlier version; I tried
> to just hack a copy of the old one and found the format had changed.
> The first line is the shell command to set the device parameters (as
set
> forth above), the second line is the device itself (e.g. /dev/ttyS0),
> and the following lines are the "tape" records.  Warren, may I suggest
> adding some text to the readme about this?  I had to figure it out....

Yep, that's documented in 
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Vtserver/vtserver/vtreadme.txt as follows:

   The file .vtrc is the server's configuration file. Lines beginning
with
   hashes are ignored. The first (non-hashed) gives a shell command to
set the
   correct speed and parity of the serial line. The second line names
the
   serial device. Remaining lines name the fictitious tape's records,
and
   should be tinyboot, copy, and the name of your disk image.

> *	It's not extremely clear from the readme, but start VTServer
> first, then the PDP-11 code.  It wasn't that hard to key in with the
> programmer's panel.  :-) 

Thanks, can you suggest changes to the above document which would help
to clarify this?

Also, Fred van Kempen has added commands to send down the bootstrap
code if the PDP-11 has ODT. I'll add this to the server once I get the
code from Fred.
 
> Please don't get me wrong, I'm grateful that you wrote this and not
me.
> :-)  But you did ask for feedback, and I'm sending this to the PUPS
list
> with the hope it will help anyone else with a similar situation.  

Thanks Ian, yes I'm always happy for feedback. You might also try the
two Ultrix RL02 images that Bill Gunshannon also donated to the archive,
as he booted these on an 11/23 ok.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Feb 22 04:17:27 2001
From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:17:27 -0500
Subject: [pups] VTServer 2.0 - Note from the Field
References: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C018EEBCC@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <3A940637.83A0591B@tampabay.rr.com>

Ian King wrote:
> 
> Further good news: it boots!  I have a V6 image from Ken Wellsch
> (thanks, Ken) booting on my 11/34.  Now I have lots to figure out....
> -- Ian
> 
> PS: Warren, I was mailing from the Web access client, so it was probably
> HTML - sorry.

I likely come across as an arrogant SOB - I hardly deserve credit for
the image.  My part was one of deciphering what came off an old 800 BPI
mag tape a decade ago and caring about preserving this bit of the past.

Folks you don't know like Ian! Allen who handed me the tape from the
Computer Graphics Lab at U of Waterloo (and the CGL folks for hanging
onto the tape in their library) to folks like Alan Bowler who kindly
pulled a raw image of the tape off on our old Honeywell system because
all our UNIX systems did not support 800 BPI on their tape drives any
more...

Those are just some of the people that preceded that image - not even
mentioning the folks that brought you V6 in the first place...

Then afterward folks like Warren for tirelessly making PUPS happen...

Cheers,

-- Ken


From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Thu Feb 22 07:35:50 2001
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:35:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] creating disk images
Message-ID: <200102212135.NAA28249@chiton.ucsd.edu>

> From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Wed Feb 21 09:46 PST 2001
> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:29:48 -0500 (EST)
> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill at cs.scranton.edu>
> To: PUPS Mailing List <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
> Subject: [pups] creating disk images
> 
> I know it is probably simple, but my experience is with the real
> thing and this is the first time I have tried to do anything but
> play with one of the emulators.
> 
> How do you create new blank disk images for the Supnik emulator??
> In particular, I am trying to create some RM03's to give me more
> room to work with Ultrix-11.  I am trying to make some install
> kits on different media so that more people will be able to get
> it, not only on emulators, but also on real machines, where it
> is much more fun.  :-)

I have done it with

	dd if=/dev/zero of=newdisk.dsk bs=1k count=10240

to make 10MB RL02 images.  Followed by the lightly-documented
step in the Supnik emulator of attaching the disk image and writing
the badblock table.  Followed by (for RT11) INIT/NOQ DL1

Corresponding for a Unix system would be mkfs(8) or newfs(8),
whichever you have.

I think it is only the RL disks that need the badblock step.

     carl
-- 
        carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
        {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl                 cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu
                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Feb 22 10:34:08 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:34:08 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: V6 image for 11/23
In-Reply-To: <3A940637.83A0591B@tampabay.rr.com> from Ken Wellsch at "Feb 21,
 2001 01:17:27 pm"
Message-ID: <200102220034.f1M0YAG05750@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Ken Wellsch:
> My part was one of deciphering what came off an old 800 BPI
> mag tape a decade ago and caring about preserving this bit of the past.
> 
> [Thanks go to those] who handed me the tape from the
> Computer Graphics Lab at U of Waterloo (and the CGL folks for hanging
> onto the tape in their library) to folks like Alan Bowler who kindly
> pulled a raw image of the tape off on our old Honeywell system because
> all our UNIX systems did not support 800 BPI on their tape drives any
> more...
> -- Ken

Ken, if this image isn't already in the archive, can you send it in?

Thanks,
	Warren

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From robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk  Thu Feb 22 20:20:31 2001
From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk (robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:20:31 +0000
Subject: [pups] WTD TS11, TS05 in UK
Message-ID: <002569FB.0039C113.00@postoffice.co.uk>



Dear All,
I have a Dilog TS11 controller but no TSV05 or TS11 drive.  Has anyone got such
a thing in the UK that they would be willing to part with, sell, swap or
whatever.  Ideally I would like one of the Dilog 880 drives with the
free-standing, i.e., not rack mounting, cabinet.

Regards

Robin




From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Fri Feb 23 06:02:36 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:02:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102221454580.11275-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>


The Ultrix-11 saga continues but some progress is being made.

Has anyone run into a problem with stray interupts when using RP type
disks with the Supnik emulator??  While I am  not sure they cause any
real problem, they are an annoyance and do clutter up the console
terminal.  May need to figure out how to come up with a remote TTY
and start doing my work (especially kermiting) from there.

In the meantime, I hope to have a full Ultrix-11 development system
running in the next day or so.  That means building all the pieces
needed for a split I&D system.

And now for the obligatory question:
  When I tried run Ultrix-11 on my 11/93 I got a message that said:
"Unknown processor.  enter CPU type in R0 and continue at your own risk."

Anyone know where I might find these magical numbers??  I figure if I
lie and tell him it's a 73 it should at least run.  Yes??  No??

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Fri Feb 23 09:15:00 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:15:00 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102221454580.11275-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
 from Bill Gunshannon at "Feb 22, 2001 03:02:36 pm"
Message-ID: <200102222315.f1MNF0v08869@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Bill Gunshannon:
> 
> Has anyone run into a problem with stray interupts when using RP type
> disks with the Supnik emulator??  While I am  not sure they cause any
> real problem, they are an annoyance and do clutter up the console
> terminal.  May need to figure out how to come up with a remote TTY
> and start doing my work (especially kermiting) from there.

Are the stray interrupts being reported by the Ultrix kernel or the
simulator itself. If the latter, you can always edit out the offending
printfs.
 
Cheers,
	Warren

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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Fri Feb 23 11:49:48 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:49:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <200102222315.f1MNF0v08869@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102222043330.12005-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>

On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Warren Toomey wrote:

> In article by Bill Gunshannon:
> > 
> > Has anyone run into a problem with stray interupts when using RP type
> > disks with the Supnik emulator??  While I am  not sure they cause any
> > real problem, they are an annoyance and do clutter up the console
> > terminal.  May need to figure out how to come up with a remote TTY
> > and start doing my work (especially kermiting) from there.
> 
> Are the stray interrupts being reported by the Ultrix kernel or the
> simulator itself. If the latter, you can always edit out the offending
> printfs.

Nope, these are from the Ultrix kernel.  The message itself is put
out by the routine logsi() in errlog.c.  The big question is, is this
a problem with Ultrix or is this a problem with emulator that just
gets ignored by the other OSes.  I would be curious to know if there
is a similar function in 2.11??  If so, it would be interesting to
compare them and see why Ultrix sees all these stray interupts that
no one else sees.

All the best.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Fri Feb 23 14:27:43 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:27:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
Message-ID: <200102230427.f1N4RhD19979@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill at cs.scranton.edu>
> Nope, these are from the Ultrix kernel.  The message itself is put
> out by the routine logsi() in errlog.c.  The big question is, is this

	That the messages are coming from Ultrix and not the simulator is
	also is easily determined by grep'ing the simulator sources - no such
	message string that I can see.

> a problem with Ultrix or is this a problem with emulator that just
> gets ignored by the other OSes.  I would be curious to know if there
> is a similar function in 2.11??  If so, it would be interesting to

	There's no direct counterpart to 'logsi' in 2.11BSD.  The only 'stray
	interrupt' messages 2.11 can produce all come out of networking drivers
	(the LH/DH "IMP" driver if_acc for example).

	The "big disk" support ('rp') was done though by Bob without access
	to a real honest to DEC RP11 controller.  I think he looked at various
	driver sources and perhaps at 2.11's "xp" driver (I vaguely recall
	sending him the xp.c and necessary include files).

> compare them and see why Ultrix sees all these stray interupts that
> no one else sees.

	Various things suggest themself to me: It might just be that Ultrix is 
	overly picky, there's something not 100% accurate in the simulator's
	delivering interrupts or Ultrix-11 has a bug.

	I haven't heard of RT-11 having a problem - perhaps someone could
	try that and see what happens.

	The other thing you might try is the Begemot emulator "p11".  It
	keeps _vastly_ better time than 'sim_2.3d' and has an emulated DEQNA
	so the machine can be placed on a network.  P11's also quite a bit
	more efficient/fast.   Configuration can be puzzling but sample
	config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).

	Steven Schultz
	sms at Moe.2bsd.com

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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Fri Feb 23 23:43:41 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:43:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <200102230427.f1N4RhD19979@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102230834350.12446-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>

On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> 	The "big disk" support ('rp') was done though by Bob without access
> 	to a real honest to DEC RP11 controller.  I think he looked at various
> 	driver sources and perhaps at 2.11's "xp" driver (I vaguely recall
> 	sending him the xp.c and necessary include files).

Does Bob (or anybody for that matter) still maintain the emulator??
Maybe the Ultrix source would be a help in better understanding some
of the internals of the hardware.

> 
> > compare them and see why Ultrix sees all these stray interupts that
> > no one else sees.
> 
> 	Various things suggest themself to me: It might just be that Ultrix is 
> 	overly picky, there's something not 100% accurate in the simulator's
> 	delivering interrupts or Ultrix-11 has a bug.

My experience with Ultrix-11 up to this point would lead me to believe
that it isn't bugs, but I can easily accept that it is overly picky.
That's why I thought the sources might be a big help in tuning the
emulator.

> 
> 	I haven't heard of RT-11 having a problem - perhaps someone could
> 	try that and see what happens.

I tried RSTS.  As a matter of fact, I used DSKINT to create my empty
RP06 images.  No sogn of a problem there.

> 
> 	The other thing you might try is the Begemot emulator "p11".  It
> 	keeps _vastly_ better time than 'sim_2.3d' and has an emulated DEQNA

I am using 2.5a of the Supnik emulator.

> 	so the machine can be placed on a network.  P11's also quite a bit
> 	more efficient/fast.   Configuration can be puzzling but sample
> 	config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).

I would love to us the Begemot emulator.  I have the latest version but
I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work.  Can anyone
tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
so, how??  Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From lars at nocrew.org  Sat Feb 24 00:59:02 2001
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: 23 Feb 2001 15:59:02 +0100
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102230834350.12446-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102230834350.12446-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <85d7c9xx6x.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Bill Gunshannon <bill at cs.scranton.edu> writes:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> > 	The "big disk" support ('rp') was done though by Bob without access
> > 	to a real honest to DEC RP11 controller.  I think he looked at various
> > 	driver sources and perhaps at 2.11's "xp" driver (I vaguely recall
> > 	sending him the xp.c and necessary include files).
> Does Bob (or anybody for that matter) still maintain the emulator??

Version 2.5a was released on January 1, and Bob recently asked me
to update a pointer to his simulator web page, so I'd say he does.

-- 
http://lars.nocrew.org/

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Feb 24 02:42:52 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:42:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
Message-ID: <200102231642.f1NGgqP08664@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org>
> 
> Version 2.5a was released on January 1, and Bob recently asked me
> to update a pointer to his simulator web page, so I'd say he does.

	That shows how long it has been since I ran that simulator ;-)

	I'll pull it in just to have the latest version around to test with.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Feb 24 06:59:58 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:59:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
Message-ID: <200102232059.f1NKxwH11017@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill at cs.scranton.edu>
> Maybe the Ultrix source would be a help in better understanding some
> of the internals of the hardware.

	That could well be the case.  Yes, the simulator is still being
	worked on and maintained.

> My experience with Ultrix-11 up to this point would lead me to believe
> that it isn't bugs, but I can easily accept that it is overly picky.
> 
> I tried RSTS.  As a matter of fact, I used DSKINT to create my empty
> RP06 images.  No sogn of a problem there.

	Ah, ok.   That tends to reinforce the thought that Ultrix may be
	too picky about something.

> I would love to us the Begemot emulator.  I have the latest version but
> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work.  Can anyone
> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
> so, how??  Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??

	Yes indeed you can use the RP06 images "bits as is".  As long as
	the disk image is exactly an RP06 (the only size supported that I
	can see by P11) nothing more need be done.   In fact that's how I
	switched over from 'sim_2.x' to 'p11' - I just made a copy of the
	disk image and hand crafted a p11conf file.

	Tapes need "conversion" because they have to contain information 
	about record lengths and end of file markers.   Disk images are
	a simple collection of bytes.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

p.s. here's what I use for P11's conf file - perhaps it will be of use.  The
     disk image "2.11BSD" is referenced on the line 'dev 0 ./2.11BSD  1999'

--------------------p11conf------------------------
set clock_rate 60

ctrl rk 017777400 0220 5 4000
end

ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
end

ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
dev 0 ./2.11BSD  1999
dev 1 ./junk  1999
end

ctrl kl
dev 017777560  060  064 4 tty_net  -7 -t 10000
dev 017776500 0300 0304 4 tty_net  -7 -t 10001
end

ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
end

ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
end

ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
# dev 0 /tmp/foo
end

ctrl qna 017774440 5 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0xf8:0x7a qna.rom
dev epp_tun tun0 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x00
end

# The toy clock.
#
ctrl toy 017777526
end


From Christian.Corti at studserv.uni-stuttgart.de  Sun Feb 25 09:54:00 2001
From: Christian.Corti at studserv.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:54:00 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [pups] Troubles with 2.9BSD on 11/34a
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.20.0102242339110.28878-100000@linuxserv.home>


Hi,

I finally managed to install 2.9BSD on a real 11/34 with two RL01s;
I used KSERVE on RT-11 to transfer a boot disk image created
with E11 to a RL01 disk. I did the same for the /usr partition to be
mounted.
(It was hard to find out that I had to write a little program to convert
the usr.tar file into a tape file for E11 and un-tar it to the disk
image. It didn't work by mounting the tar-file as /dev/rl2 and doing tar
xvf /dev/rrl2; tar would hang immediatly or after the first few files.)

Good news:
I can boot Unix, mount /usr, edit /etc/dtab with vi etc.
Multiuser works too, with my notebook running MS-DOS Kermit in VT100
mode as the console and a real ADM3a attached to a second serial port.

Bad news:
Using the system is a real pain because some (no specific) programs will
cause either a "memory fault - core dumped" or a "bus error - core
dumped". E.g. calling "/lib/cpp" fails, but "/lib/cpp foo" says something
like "foo not found" and terminates without fault.
Very strange too: Sometimes when I start "awk" without parameters (just
for playing around) I get an error like "error on line 6: ..." as if the
shell tried to interpret the binary as a shell script!?
"fsck ..." occasionally fails after stage 5 with a memory fault.
"ps" fails, but "ps axl" works (or vice versa); or both (doesn't) work.
And so on :-(((

But:
There are no errors running RT-11 (it runs just fine) and RSX11/M (as I
could test it). The MAINDEC test programs for CPU and memory give no
errors (perhaps I should let them run much longer?).
There are no errors with these disk images and E11 configured to emulate
the real 11/34.

The configuration:
CPU: PDP11/34a without FPP
memory: 128 kw (one single non-DEC board)
M78?? parity module
Programmer's console
DL11-W for the console terminal
RL11 controller (revised version)
M9812 bootstrap/terminator with DL boot rom

Addresses and vectors are set up correctly.


What is going on? Did anyone have similar problems?
I suspect that either the memory or the MMU has a random behaviour,
but I'm not sure.


Christian

-----------------------------------------
EMail:
Christian.Corti at studserv.uni-stuttgart.de

Universität Stuttgart
Fakultät für Informatik
-----------------------------------------


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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Mon Feb 26 04:04:47 2001
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:04:47 +0000
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <200102232059.f1NKxwH11017@moe.2bsd.com>
References: <200102232059.f1NKxwH11017@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Uz90cvA$kUm6EwgT@ruffnready.co.uk>

Dear All,
Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well.  A
thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
out.  Is this the toy clock.  It is certainly built into p11, is it
built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?

Regards

Robin
In message <200102232059.f1NKxwH11017 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes
>Hi -
>
>> From: Bill Gunshannon <bill at cs.scranton.edu>
>> Maybe the Ultrix source would be a help in better understanding some
>> of the internals of the hardware.
>
>       That could well be the case.  Yes, the simulator is still being
>       worked on and maintained.
>
>> My experience with Ultrix-11 up to this point would lead me to believe
>> that it isn't bugs, but I can easily accept that it is overly picky.
>> 
>> I tried RSTS.  As a matter of fact, I used DSKINT to create my empty
>> RP06 images.  No sogn of a problem there.
>
>       Ah, ok.   That tends to reinforce the thought that Ultrix may be
>       too picky about something.
>
>> I would love to us the Begemot emulator.  I have the latest version but
>> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work.  Can anyone
>> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
>> so, how??  Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
>
>       Yes indeed you can use the RP06 images "bits as is".  As long as
>       the disk image is exactly an RP06 (the only size supported that I
>       can see by P11) nothing more need be done.   In fact that's how I
>       switched over from 'sim_2.x' to 'p11' - I just made a copy of the
>       disk image and hand crafted a p11conf file.
>
>       Tapes need "conversion" because they have to contain information 
>       about record lengths and end of file markers.   Disk images are
>       a simple collection of bytes.
>
>       Steven Schultz
>       sms at moe.2bsd.com
>
>p.s. here's what I use for P11's conf file - perhaps it will be of use.  The
>     disk image "2.11BSD" is referenced on the line 'dev 0 ./2.11BSD  1999'
>
>--------------------p11conf------------------------
>set clock_rate 60
>
>ctrl rk 017777400 0220 5 4000
>end
>
>ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
>end
>
>ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
>dev 0 ./2.11BSD  1999
>dev 1 ./junk  1999
>end
>
>ctrl kl
>dev 017777560  060  064 4 tty_net  -7 -t 10000
>dev 017776500 0300 0304 4 tty_net  -7 -t 10001
>end
>
>ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
>end
>
>ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
>end
>
>ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
># dev 0 /tmp/foo
>end
>
>ctrl qna 017774440 5 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0xf8:0x7a qna.rom
>dev epp_tun tun0 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x00
>end
>
># The toy clock.
>#
>ctrl toy 017777526
>end

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome


From bqt at update.uu.se  Mon Feb 26 04:34:57 2001
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:34:57 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <Uz90cvA$kUm6EwgT@ruffnready.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102251934050.17586-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Robin Birch wrote:

> Dear All,
> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well.  A
> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
> out.  Is this the toy clock.  It is certainly built into p11, is it
> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?

Nope. The TOY clock don't generate interrupts.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Feb 26 04:48:51 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:48:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
Message-ID: <200102251848.f1PImpn25642@moe.2bsd.com>

> From: Robin Birch <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>
>
> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well.  A
> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
> out.  Is this the toy clock.  It is certainly built into p11, is it
> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
> 
	As Billy pointed out the TOY clock does not generate interrupts.  The
	line frequency clock does but the TOY clock does not.

	Looking at the Ultrix-3.1 sources I found something that may be
	relevant in sys/errlog.c:

/*
 * Log a stray device interrupt.
 *
 * A stray interrupt is defined as one that occurs for
 * a configured device through a valid vector address,
 * but is unexpected. In the case of big disks, a stray
 * interrupt is logged when the interrupt service routine
 * is entered and the device is not active and no attention
 * summary bits are set.
 */

	One guess is that other systems do not use or concern themselves with
	'attention summary' bits and simply dismiss the interrupt without
	comment.

	Looking at the errlogs (I do not know what the commands for doing that
	are but a big of digging would probably find them) might yield more
	information.

	Cheers.

	Steven  Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Mon Feb 26 07:02:52 2001
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:02:52 +0000
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <200102251848.f1PImpn25642@moe.2bsd.com>
References: <200102251848.f1PImpn25642@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <v179WIA8LXm6Ew3b@ruffnready.co.uk>

Rats,
This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!

It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on without some
work on the emulators themselves.  When the SI message is generated it
comes out with a number that looks like an address.  Would this point to
the source of the interrupt?  On p11 it is a constant address, I just
can't remember what it is for the moment.

Cheers

Robin
In message <200102251848.f1PImpn25642 at moe.2bsd.com>, Steven M. Schultz
<sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes
>> From: Robin Birch <robin at ruffnready.co.uk>
>>
>> Having got to the point where I can get ultrix trying to boot on p11 I
>> can confirm that it complains of stray interrupts on p11 as well.  A
>> thought occurred to me over the weekend that I haven't had time to try
>> out.  Is this the toy clock.  It is certainly built into p11, is it
>> built into Bob Supnik's emulator and if so, does it generate interrupts?
>> 
>       As Billy pointed out the TOY clock does not generate interrupts.  The
>       line frequency clock does but the TOY clock does not.
>
>       Looking at the Ultrix-3.1 sources I found something that may be
>       relevant in sys/errlog.c:
>
>/*
> * Log a stray device interrupt.
> *
> * A stray interrupt is defined as one that occurs for
> * a configured device through a valid vector address,
> * but is unexpected. In the case of big disks, a stray
> * interrupt is logged when the interrupt service routine
> * is entered and the device is not active and no attention
> * summary bits are set.
> */
>
>       One guess is that other systems do not use or concern themselves with
>       'attention summary' bits and simply dismiss the interrupt without
>       comment.
>
>       Looking at the errlogs (I do not know what the commands for doing that
>       are but a big of digging would probably find them) might yield more
>       information.
>
>       Cheers.
>
>       Steven  Schultz
>       sms at moe.2bsd.com

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Mon Feb 26 07:37:21 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:37:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <v179WIA8LXm6Ew3b@ruffnready.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102251630510.13466-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>

On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Robin Birch wrote:

> Rats,
> This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
> 
> It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on without some
> work on the emulators themselves. 

Well, that's my estimation.  I thought at first it was harmless, but
work I have attempted over this weekend using the Supnik emulator has
changed my mind.

>                                    When the SI message is generated it
> comes out with a number that looks like an address.  Would this point to
> the source of the interrupt?  On p11 it is a constant address, I just
> can't remember what it is for the moment.

Let me guess: 176700.  :-)

It's the csr of the device that issued the stray interrupt.  My guess is
your having the same trouble with p11 that I am having with Bob's.  It's
the hp device and every RP disk access causes stray interrupts.
 
bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From grog at lemis.com  Mon Feb 26 04:57:10 2001
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:57:10 -0500
Subject: [pups] Begemot emulator (was: Stray Interupts)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102230834350.12446-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>; from bill@cs.scranton.edu on Fri, Feb 23, 2001 at 08:43:41AM -0500
References: <200102230427.f1N4RhD19979@moe.2bsd.com> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102230834350.12446-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <20010225135710.B11541@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com>

On Friday, 23 February 2001 at  8:43:41 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
>> 	so the machine can be placed on a network.  P11's also quite a bit
>> 	more efficient/fast.   Configuration can be puzzling but sample
>> 	config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
>
> I would love to us the Begemot emulator.  I have the latest version but
> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work.  Can anyone
> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
> so, how??  Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??

*sigh* The Begemot emulator has bitrotted a little.  I can no longer
get it to work, though admittedly I didn't try very hard the last
time, and it may be something as simple as a corrupted disk image.
But the other thing is that the Begemot ftp site is no longer
accessible, which is somewhat embarrassing, since I host it.  I'm
copying Jörg Micheel and Harti Brandt, the Begemot people, and I hope
that we'll get it up again soon.  Jörg, Harti, the problem is that I
migrated a system disk, and seem to have lost the connection to the
ftp files.  You should find them somewhere on the file systems
/freebie or /freebie/usr, which are the old system disk, still
spinning.

Greg
--
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Mon Feb 26 10:39:25 2001
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 01:39:25 +0100
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
Message-ID: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32CA5@mwnt4.microwalt.nl>

All,

Robin Birch wrote:

> > This means that it won't be simple to fix!!!!!!!!
Sure, fix the source :)

> > It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on 
> without some work on the emulators themselves. 
I have been running Ultrix-11 V3.1 on Ersatz-11 without any of that. It
_could_ be linked to interrupt latency issues- Ultrix tells controller
to do something (e.g., three commands to read a sector).  Controller does
as told, generating an interrupt for each of the requests saying its ready.
However, because of latency, only ints 1 and 3 actually get delivered within
the expected timeframe (can happen).

Usually (from my experience with writing Unix kernel drivers), this is not
a problem, because the "message" from (in this case) int2 will be picked up
when we start to service int3, which we _did_ see.  So, even though we didnt
get int2, we were fine.

Now... emulator wakes up again, goes "oi, i messed up, better go send that
int now" and sends the int.  The driver no longer _awaits_ an interrupt
(because
we cleared the AttentionNeeded flags when servicing int3), so... we get the
"stray int" message.

If this logic is correct, it will get worse when loading the host system
heavily, so latency will occur more often.  On a very fast box (like my quad
CPU
P3/850 Linux box) it should hardly occur.

Anyone?

Fred (hacking on the V3.1 source to not fuck up TCP/IP on the 11/23 ..)


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Mon Feb 26 11:28:04 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:28:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Announce: The Unix Tree
Message-ID: <200102260130.f1Q1Uij05690@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

Hi all,
	
	A while ago I floated the idea of a web-browsable set of old Unix
distributions, along with a way of finding out how each file evolved. Well,
after a bit of coding on the weekend, I now have this available. It's
called the Unix Tree, and the URL is http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/

Because of the license restrictions, you need your normal UNIX Archive
username and password to browse.

I've only inserted research editions up to 7th Edition for now, in case
I have to make major changes. However, tell me what you think.

Cheers, and off to have some lunch.

	Warren

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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Mon Feb 26 12:45:53 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:45:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Stray Interupts
In-Reply-To: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32CA5@mwnt4.microwalt.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102252140060.13466-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Fred N. van Kempen wrote:

> > > It could mean that running Ultrix on a simulator isn't on 
> > without some work on the emulators themselves. 
> I have been running Ultrix-11 V3.1 on Ersatz-11 without any of that. It

Which I think says a lot about the quality of Ersatz-11.

> _could_ be linked to interrupt latency issues- Ultrix tells controller
> to do something (e.g., three commands to read a sector).  Controller does
> as told, generating an interrupt for each of the requests saying its ready.
> However, because of latency, only ints 1 and 3 actually get delivered within
> the expected timeframe (can happen).
> 
> Usually (from my experience with writing Unix kernel drivers), this is not
> a problem, because the "message" from (in this case) int2 will be picked up
> when we start to service int3, which we _did_ see.  So, even though we didnt
> get int2, we were fine.
> 
> Now... emulator wakes up again, goes "oi, i messed up, better go send that
> int now" and sends the int.  The driver no longer _awaits_ an interrupt
> (because
> we cleared the AttentionNeeded flags when servicing int3), so... we get the
> "stray int" message.

Based on my experience over this weekend, I can definitely agree with
all of the above.  It makes perfect sense and goes a long way toward
explaining my problems.

> 
> If this logic is correct, it will get worse when loading the host system
> heavily, so latency will occur more often. 

I can also vouch for this.  I finally gave up on trying to do anything 
I/O intensive on the emulated RP disk.  Emulator was continuously
crashing.

>                                      On a very fast box (like my quad CPU
> P3/850 Linux box) it should hardly occur.

While this is not a solution most people here are likely to be able to
apply :-)  I also have doubts that it will solve the problem.  I also
doubt that the problem is as easy as just throwing away the stray interrupt.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From iking at killthewabbit.org  Mon Feb 26 17:49:22 2001
From: iking at killthewabbit.org (Ian King)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:49:22 -0800
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Message-ID: <000a01c09fc8$a2965290$450010ac@dawabbit>

I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device".  I'm not particularly concerned about ps itself, but another symptom of problems is that I can't compile anything in C; I get an error out of cc that says "Fatal error in /lib/c0".  Given where that error comes from in cc, it appears related.  

I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how swap space is assigned or designated.  Does anyone have any hints?  Thanks -- Ian 
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From brandt at fokus.gmd.de  Mon Feb 26 19:31:40 2001
From: brandt at fokus.gmd.de (Harti Brandt)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:31:40 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] Re: Begemot emulator (was: Stray Interupts)
In-Reply-To: <20010225135710.B11541@sydney.worldwide.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.33.0102261027150.70540-100000@beagle.fokus.gmd.de>

On Sun, 25 Feb 2001, Greg Lehey wrote:

GL>On Friday, 23 February 2001 at  8:43:41 -0500, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
GL>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
GL>>> 	so the machine can be placed on a network.  P11's also quite a bit
GL>>> 	more efficient/fast.   Configuration can be puzzling but sample
GL>>> 	config files are available (from various PUPS folks who run P11).
GL>>
GL>> I would love to us the Begemot emulator.  I have the latest version but
GL>> I have been unable to get any of my disk images to work.  Can anyone
GL>> tell me if you can use the disk images from the other emulators and if
GL>> so, how??  Do they have to be converted somehow like tapes??
GL>
GL>*sigh* The Begemot emulator has bitrotted a little.  I can no longer
GL>get it to work, though admittedly I didn't try very hard the last
GL>time, and it may be something as simple as a corrupted disk image.
GL>But the other thing is that the Begemot ftp site is no longer
GL>accessible, which is somewhat embarrassing, since I host it.  I'm
GL>copying JЖrg Micheel and Harti Brandt, the Begemot people, and I hope
GL>that we'll get it up again soon.  JЖrg, Harti, the problem is that I
GL>migrated a system disk, and seem to have lost the connection to the
GL>ftp files.  You should find them somewhere on the file systems
GL>/freebie or /freebie/usr, which are the old system disk, still
GL>spinning.

I have done some work on the emulator last autumn and plan to release
a new version Real-Soon-Now(tm). Well, I think I will to a

kill -STOP `cat /var/run/currentwork`

and try to do it in the next couple of days.

Please watch the alt.sys.pdp11 for an anouncement.

Disc images work directly (at least the images from Bob Supnik do).

harti
-- 
harti brandt, http://www.fokus.gmd.de/research/cc/cats/employees/hartmut.brandt/private
              brandt at fokus.gmd.de, harti at begemot.org


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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Mon Feb 26 22:32:54 2001
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:32:54 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Message-ID: <200102261232.f1QCWt400747@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

Hi.

Yesterday I installed 2.11BSD on my PDP11/73. Everything went fine up
to the first time when UNIX was booted. The kernel came up, init was
started, autoconfig run and printed out the devices it had (not) found.
My disk and tape were found but then, after printing:
-----
73Boot from tms(0,0,0) at 0174500
: ra(0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150

2.11 BSD UNIX #115: Sat Apr 22 19:07:25 PDT 2000
    sms1 at curly.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC

ra0: Ver 3 mod 3
ra0: RD54  size=311200

phys mem  = 4186112
avail mem = 3962176
user mem  = 307200

June  8 21:21:24 init: configure system

hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped:  No CSR.
ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped:  No CSR.
ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped:  No CSR.
tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped:  No CSR.
tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 vectorset attached
ts ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped:  No CSR.
xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped:  No CSR.
-----
it hangs. Characters I type into the terminal are echod, but nothing
else happens. The "Run" LED at the front panel is of. I tried with an
other CPU und memory card, but the same happend.

System configuration:
11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)
4MB or 1MB memory card (non DEC)
Sigma DLV11-J clone for console (CSR 1765{0,1,2}0 and 177560)
TK50 with TQK50 (CSR 174500)
RA54, last week reformated on a MV2000 with RQDX3 (CSR 172150)
BA23 from a MVII.

BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
UNIX I got garbage after "user mem  = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
and this worked, but is it correct?
-- 



tschuess,
          Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz


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From IVIE at cc.usu.edu  Tue Feb 27 03:31:41 2001
From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:31:41 -0700 (MST)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Message-ID: <01K0K9U87UPE9ODB68@cc.usu.edu>

Ian King said:
> I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
> swap space is assigned or designated.  Does anyone have any hints?  =
> Thanks -- Ian=20

Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.

Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.

Roger Ivie
ivie at cc.usu.edu

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From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com  Tue Feb 27 03:51:49 2001
From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:51:49 -0500
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
References: <01K0K9U87UPE9ODB68@cc.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <3A9A97B5.4EBD13A4@tampabay.rr.com>

Roger Ivie wrote:
> 
> Ian King said:
> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
> > swap space is assigned or designated.  Does anyone have any hints?  =
> > Thanks -- Ian=20
> 
> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
> 
> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.

I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
is built with a wired in swap.  In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.

Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.

The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
that) and confirming it is a block device.

Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
still gripes about "no swap device."

So I'm missing something I guess.

-- Ken

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Feb 27 04:22:23 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:22:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Message-ID: <200102261822.f1QIMNt09941@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
> 
> Yesterday I installed 2.11BSD on my PDP11/73. Everything went fine up
> to the first time when UNIX was booted. The kernel came up, init was
> started, autoconfig run and printed out the devices it had (not) found.

> 2.11 BSD UNIX #115: Sat Apr 22 19:07:25 PDT 2000
>     sms1 at curly.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC

	That looks good - and familiar ;)

> xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped:  No CSR.
> -----
> it hangs. Characters I type into the terminal are echod, but nothing

	The next thing that should have come out is the '# ' single user
	prompt.

> else happens. The "Run" LED at the front panel is off. I tried with an

	That sounds like the system 'halt'ed for some (unknown) reason.

	Sigh - that kernel should work fine, especially with a RQDX3/RD54.  I
	am at a loss to explain/diagnose the problem.

> System configuration:
> 11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
> W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)

	There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
	'halt' instruction.  If 'halt' is disabled then the 'halt' instruction
	is treated as a 'nop' even in kernel mode.  If 'halt' is enabled then
	the console ODT will be entered if the kernel executes a halt.

	Looks like we'll have to try and solve this the hard way ;(

	After the system hangs press the 'halt' button on the front of the
	machine and note the PC - hopefully that value will give a clue as
	to where the kernel is at the time (likely in a clock interrupt).

> BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
> UNIX I got garbage after "user mem  = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
> and this worked, but is it correct?

	Yes, 7e1 is correct - a legacy setting from eons ago.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Tue Feb 27 04:47:57 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:47:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <3A9A97B5.4EBD13A4@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102261344410.14505-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:

> 
> Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> still gripes about "no swap device."
> 
> So I'm missing something I guess.
> 

Based on my recent experience with Ultrix-11 (which warns you not
to try and change the partiitioning on certain drive types as the
kernel has some references hard-coded) what you may be missing are
the devices for the individual partitions.  Is there an equivalent
to MAKEDEV??  Ultrix uses a program named "msf" (for "make special
file") and so you never see what the partitioning layout is unless
you peek at the sources.

Good luck.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From iking at microsoft.com  Tue Feb 27 04:27:12 2001
From: iking at microsoft.com (Ian King)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:27:12 -0800
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Message-ID: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0.  Relaetd to this, ps does something
odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls 'open
("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in C,
but for C of this era I'm not sure.  That call seems to succeed; it's a few
statements later where it fails with the "no swap device" console message.  

But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.  

I'll examine my /dev/rk0 structure next....  -- Ian 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
To: Roger Ivie
Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?


Roger Ivie wrote:
> 
> Ian King said:
> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
> > swap space is assigned or designated.  Does anyone have any hints?  =
> > Thanks -- Ian=20
> 
> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
> 
> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.

I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
is built with a wired in swap.  In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.

Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.

The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
that) and confirming it is a block device.

Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
still gripes about "no swap device."

So I'm missing something I guess.

-- Ken

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From IVIE at cc.usu.edu  Tue Feb 27 04:04:53 2001
From: IVIE at cc.usu.edu (Roger Ivie)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:04:53 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Message-ID: <01K0KD39CMMQ91Z5ER@cc.usu.edu>

Ian King wrote:
> But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
> execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
> able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.  

It is indeed the case that V6 needs swap to fork. Forking in V6 is done
essentially by swapping the task out to disk and (oops!) forgetting to
delete the in-core copy. At least, that's how it looked to me.

Roger Ivie
ivie at cc.usu.edu

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From iking at microsoft.com  Tue Feb 27 05:06:07 2001
From: iking at microsoft.com (Ian King)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:06:07 -0800
Subject: Serial settings (was RE: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.)
Message-ID: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C018EEBFD@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

FWIW, I noticed that Unix V6 is happier with 7E1 for its console, too; I'm
using a terminal emulator, and was getting garbage from V6 (but had had no
problems with RSX-11).  -- Ian 

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven M. Schultz [mailto:sms at moe.2bsd.com]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 10:22 AM
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.

[snip] 

> BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
> UNIX I got garbage after "user mem  = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
> and this worked, but is it correct?

	Yes, 7e1 is correct - a legacy setting from eons ago.


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From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Tue Feb 27 05:41:07 2001
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:41:07 +0100
Subject: [pups] Ultrix-11 V3.1 hang on DEQNA ?
Message-ID: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32CA8@mwnt4.microwalt.nl>

All,

I'm almost there.  If only I can tell my 11/23+ _not_ to hang as soon
as I enable networking by configuring the Ethernet (qe0; DEQNA) card 
with ifconfig.

Does anyone have docs regarding the DEQNA and/or DELQA so I can check the
board's physical settings?

Thx,	
	Fted


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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Tue Feb 27 06:17:18 2001
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:17:18 +0000
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
References: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
Message-ID: <ZchHXUAOnrm6Ewzo@ruffnready.co.uk>

In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
device.  Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?

Robin

In message <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9 at red-msg-06.redmond.
corp.microsoft.com>, Ian King <iking at microsoft.com> writes
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0.  Relaetd to this, ps does something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls 'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in C,
>but for C of this era I'm not sure.  That call seems to succeed; it's a few
>statements later where it fails with the "no swap device" console message.  
>
>But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
>execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
>able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.  
>
>I'll examine my /dev/rk0 structure next....  -- Ian 
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>
>Roger Ivie wrote:
>> 
>> Ian King said:
>> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how =
>> > swap space is assigned or designated.  Does anyone have any hints?  =
>> > Thanks -- Ian=20
>> 
>> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
>> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
>> 
>> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
>> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
>> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
>> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
>> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.
>
>I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
>is built with a wired in swap.  In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
>looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
>the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.
>
>Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
>a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>-- Ken

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com  Tue Feb 27 06:22:35 2001
From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:22:35 -0500
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
References: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com> <ZchHXUAOnrm6Ewzo@ruffnready.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3A9ABB0B.F1E754B@tampabay.rr.com>

I know I for one had forgotten just what "the state of the art" was with
UNIX back in 1975.  If you can, please do look at the source for V6/ps.
Really.  /dev/swap?  In your dreams!  B^)  Cheers,  -- Ken

Robin Birch wrote:
> 
> In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
> device.  Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
> isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?
> 
> Robin

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From iking at microsoft.com  Tue Feb 27 06:29:48 2001
From: iking at microsoft.com (Ian King)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:29:48 -0800
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Message-ID: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1CB@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

I was wondering about that, as I've seen that sort of thing in other *nixes,
too.  I tried creating a link to /dev/swap from /dev/rk0, and it didn't help
ps (same error message).  

I'm going to figure out some way to print out ps.c later and trace through
it; I was going through it with ed on the PDP-11 (which was fun, in a
twisted, nostalgic sort of way).  If I can figure out exactly how it's
looking for what it's looking for, perhaps I can figure out why it isn't
finding it.  :-)  

I've found the stuff on coming up in single-user mode, too - with 173030 in
the switch register (I have the programmer's panel on my 11/34a).  FYI.  --
Ian 

-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Birch [mailto:robin at ruffnready.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 12:17 PM
To: Ian King
Cc: 'Ken Wellsch'; Roger Ivie; PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?


In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
device.  Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?

Robin

In message <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C0235D1C9 at red-msg-06.redmond.
corp.microsoft.com>, Ian King <iking at microsoft.com> writes
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0.  Relaetd to this, ps does something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls
'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in
C,
>but for C of this era I'm not sure.  That call seems to succeed; it's a few
>statements later where it fails with the "no swap device" console message.

>
>But where cc seems to be failing (in /lib/c0), it is doing a fork(),
>execve() and wait(), and if the system needs to swap to do that, not being
>able to find swap space would sure bugger things up.  
>
>I'll examine my /dev/rk0 structure next....  -- Ian 
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>
>Roger Ivie wrote:
>> 
>> Ian King said:
>> > I've combed the docs and the code, and I can't find ANYthing about how
=
>> > swap space is assigned or designated.  Does anyone have any hints?  =
>> > Thanks -- Ian=20
>> 
>> Yeah, I figured this out a while ago. Unfortunately, I'm in the middle
>> of changing employers so everything's in boxes at the moment.
>> 
>> Basically, the swap space is hard-coded into the device drivers. If you
>> take a look at, for example, the RK05 driver you'll see that one of the
>> drives is smaller than the others. That extra space is the swap space.
>> I forget how the rest of the system is informed of the swap space, but
>> it's done in the disk driver sources IIRC.
>
>I took a quick look at this this morning and as Roger says, the kernel
>is built with a wired in swap.  In the case of the kernel 'rkunix,' in
>looking at usr/sys/run or something like that, I see they are wiring
>the swap to be device major=0 and minor=0 which is the root RK05 drive.
>
>Looking at the code it seems the first 4000 blocks are file system and
>a following 782 (or something like that) are for swap.
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>-- Ken

____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Tue Feb 27 07:01:36 2001
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:01:36 +0100
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Message-ID: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32CAB@mwnt4.microwalt.nl>

> In later unixes, 2.11 for instance, /dev/swap is a link to the swap
> device.  Is ps attempting to open /dev/swap and finding that it either
> isn't there or it is mknoded to an incorrect device?
That is often the case.. dunno about V6 though.. is a long time ago :)

--f


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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue Feb 27 07:15:52 2001
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:15:52 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
In-Reply-To: <200102261822.f1QIMNt09941@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <200102262115.WAA16750@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 26 Feb, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

>> 2.11 BSD UNIX #115: Sat Apr 22 19:07:25 PDT 2000
>>     sms1 at curly.2bsd.com:/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
> 	That looks good - and familiar ;)
;-)

> 	The next thing that should have come out is the '# ' single user
> 	prompt.
... like setup.ps says.

>> else happens. The "Run" LED at the front panel is off. I tried with an
> 
> 	That sounds like the system 'halt'ed for some (unknown) reason.
> 	Sigh - that kernel should work fine, especially with a RQDX3/RD54.
Yes. All the devices where used in a MVII bevore and are knowen to
work. Thats a bit confusing. 

>> System configuration:
>> 11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
>> W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)
> 
> 	There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
> 	'halt' instruction. 
BINGO! Pulling W5 solved the problem. But then I seted it again to
double check. (I changed location today and took only the cards and
disk with me.) In the "new" BA23 the system runs even with the W5
jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
switches? 

OK. The machine is currently un-tar-ing /usr... :-)))

Ahh, and an other question: Can the RT11 bootstrap listed in 
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/mscp_rt11.txt
be used to boot 2.11BSD? I have no bootstrap ROM card. (Emanuel, hint,
hint. ;-)  ) So I use a minicom script to load the bootstrap via ODT.
But the current bootstrap script is for TMSCP. So I have to load the
bootblocks from tape...
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Tue Feb 27 07:44:23 2001
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:44:23 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Message-ID: <200102262144.IAA24139@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>


The root device, swap device, swap size and offset are hard coded into the
kernel configuration file c.c. This is build by 'myconf', although a lot
of people would directly edit l.s and c.c (in /usr/sys/conf). There are no
magic /dev/swap entries. Edition 7 does the same thing.

For a RK05 disk, the filesystem would typically occupy 4000 blocks, with the
last 872 being allocated for swap. If you built a new root disk, you had to
be careful that the disk size you gave to 'mkfs', didn't overlap the
hard configured swap disk. No disk partitions.

You can find out the current values by using one of the debuggers (db or cdb)
to find the values of swap (_swapdev), swap size (_nswap), swap offset (_swplo)
and root device (_rootdev). You can also use 'nm' to get the symbol table,
and 'od' the kernel file /unix. The RK05 was usually the first entry in
the device switch tables, so the major/minor numbers are usually 0.

The 'ps' command looks up the symbol table of the unix kernel, and gets
the device entry for swap (_swapdev), and the process table (_proc)
It would open /dev as file, and read the directory entries to find a matching
device entry, so it then had the name of a device to open (you cannot open
a device based only in the major and minor device entries from a user process).
It also uses /dev to decode tty entries into names.

For 'ps' to work correctly, /unix had to be linked to the real kernel, say
rkunix.



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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Feb 27 08:32:38 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:32:38 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Announce: The Unix Tree
In-Reply-To: <200102261747.SAA16216@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de"
 at "Feb 26, 2001 06:47:11 pm"
Message-ID: <200102262235.f1QMZJR09631@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de:
> On 26 Feb, Warren Toomey wrote:
> 
> > Because of the license restrictions, you need your normal UNIX Archive
> > username and password to browse.
> Hmm. Can you set up Apache to provide SSL / HTTPS? I don't like to send
> passwords unencrypted around the world.
> tsch__,
>          Jochen

They are not real passwords, in a sense. There is only a userpool of
1,000 usernames/passwords.

When you register for access into the Unix Archive, you get one out of
the pool. The only purpose here is to prove to SCO that you indeed
agreed to their on-line license before you were given access to the
archive.

I'd be quite happy to completely dispense with the passwords altogether
and run an anonymous service. If/when Caldera work out what they are doing
with this stuff, I'll push them to allow for anonymous access.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Feb 27 08:26:24 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:26:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Message-ID: <200102262226.f1QMQOv11403@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Mon Feb 26 13:16:40 2001
> > 	There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
> > 	'halt' instruction. 
> BINGO! Pulling W5 solved the problem. But then I seted it again to
> double check. (I changed location today and took only the cards and
> disk with me.) In the "new" BA23 the system runs even with the W5

	Years ago I was completely suprised that 'halt' in kernel mode did 
	not work and the system simply continued executing the next instruction.

> jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
> panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
> of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
> installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
> immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
> switches? 

	I suspect that one of the switches enables the line frequency clock.
	With out a clock running things will work (at least minimally) as
	long as there are some interrupts happening.   

	I vaguely remember that some systems (11/23?) had an externally 
	enabled clock and if that switch was not set correctly the OS could
	be installed but the system would "hang" later on due to no context
	switch scheduling.

> OK. The machine is currently un-tar-ing /usr... :-)))

	Fantastic!

> Ahh, and an other question: Can the RT11 bootstrap listed in 
> http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/mscp_rt11.txt
> be used to boot 2.11BSD? I have no bootstrap ROM card. (Emanuel, hint,

	I think it will work.   2.11 is expecting the registers to contain
	the following:

		R0 = unit number
		R1 = CSR of booting controller

	as long as those are set it should not matter what bootcode is used.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Feb 27 08:39:30 2001
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:39:30 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <3A9A97B5.4EBD13A4@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102270938530.2716-100000@fgh.au.geac.com>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:

> Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> still gripes about "no swap device."

As I dimly recall, you need to link "/dev/drum" to whichever is the swap
device.

-- 
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493  Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From dave at fgh.geac.com.au  Tue Feb 27 08:45:56 2001
From: dave at fgh.geac.com.au (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:45:56 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <01K0KD39CMMQ91Z5ER@cc.usu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102270942470.2716-100000@fgh.au.geac.com>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Roger Ivie wrote:

> It is indeed the case that V6 needs swap to fork. Forking in V6 is done
> essentially by swapping the task out to disk and (oops!) forgetting to
> delete the in-core copy. At least, that's how it looked to me.

Yes, that's how it was done, leading to the dreaded "panic: swap".  I
think the swapped image became the parent, and the in-core one the child,
hence the child was pretty well guaranteed to run before the parent (it
typically did an exec() afterwards).

-- 
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493  Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com  Tue Feb 27 08:51:11 2001
From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:51:11 -0500
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
References: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102270938530.2716-100000@fgh.au.geac.com>
Message-ID: <3A9ADDDF.F8468078@tampabay.rr.com>

Dave Horsfall wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
> 
> > Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> > still gripes about "no swap device."
> 
> As I dimly recall, you need to link "/dev/drum" to whichever is the swap
> device.

After some wise person earlier explained the whole process in detail,
once I'd seen the final step ,I realized my error - I was booting rkunix
and as it turned out, had not matched /unix with that kernel... I just
tried it now and 'ps' is a happy camper.  B^)

-- Ken

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From dave at fgh.geac.com.au  Tue Feb 27 08:40:09 2001
From: dave at fgh.geac.com.au (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:40:09 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102270939440.2716-100000@fgh.au.geac.com>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:

> Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
> still gripes about "no swap device."

As I dimly recall, you need to link "/dev/drum" to whichever is the swap
device.

-- 
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493  Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia



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From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Tue Feb 27 09:12:07 2001
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:12:07 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Forks under V6
Message-ID: <200102262312.KAA26058@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>


> It is indeed the case that V6 needs swap to fork. Forking in V6 is done
> essentially by swapping the task out to disk and (oops!) forgetting to
> delete the in-core copy. At least, that's how it looked to me.

No. Fork calls the internal version 'newproc'. It tries to allocate memory from
the core map for the new process, and only when it fails that it creates the new
process as a swap image. Effectively, it copies out the parent as a swap
image, but attaches it to the child process (the parent isn't really swapped).

In 'miniunix', the V6 strip down for pdp-11's without memory management
(pdp11/20, 05, 10 and 40's without the proper options), only a single process
would fit in core, so every context switch or fork required swapping.

I cannot speak for pre V6


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From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Feb 27 09:46:45 2001
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:46:45 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
In-Reply-To: <200102262226.f1QMQOv11403@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0102270042590.7228-100000@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> > jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
> > panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
> > of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
> > installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
> > immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
> > switches? 
> 
> 	I suspect that one of the switches enables the line frequency clock.
> 	With out a clock running things will work (at least minimally) as
> 	long as there are some interrupts happening.   

Could be. I also remember seeing somewhere that the two dip switches on
the front panel of BA23 boxes should be set differently for PDP-11s and
VAXen. Appearantly they expect the boot button to behave in different ways
on the bus as well... (and HALT I think)

Don't have that docuemnt anywhere close though...

> 	I vaguely remember that some systems (11/23?) had an externally 
> 	enabled clock and if that switch was not set correctly the OS could
> 	be installed but the system would "hang" later on due to no context
> 	switch scheduling.

That definitely happens for RSX atleast. You *must* have a clock interrupt
running, or you are cooked.

> > Ahh, and an other question: Can the RT11 bootstrap listed in 
> > http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/bootstraps/mscp_rt11.txt
> > be used to boot 2.11BSD? I have no bootstrap ROM card. (Emanuel, hint,
> 
> 	I think it will work.   2.11 is expecting the registers to contain
> 	the following:
> 
> 		R0 = unit number
> 		R1 = CSR of booting controller
> 
> 	as long as those are set it should not matter what bootcode is used.

Then it's more forgiving than the RSX boot code. I have tried that
bootstrap and it won't boot RSX atleast, that much I know...

Speaking of which; does anyone have boot roms for TMSCP for the M9312?

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Tue Feb 27 09:49:13 2001
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:49:13 -0500
Subject: [pups] Forks under V6
Message-ID: <200102262353.KAA55588@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>

I believe the practice John Holden describes from Mini-UNIX (only one
process in memory at a time, hence a context switch is the same as a
swap) was also part of the very earliest UNIXes, on the PDP-7 and the
11/20, neither of which had hardware memory management.  Dennis Ritchie's
`Evolution of the UNIX Time-Sharing System' paper (in the October 1984
Bell Labs Technical Journal, the second issue to be devoted entirely to
UNIX), tells how it worked in some detail.  It wouldn't surprise me if
the swap-to-fork mechanism lived on for a while even after the system
learned about memory management, but I don't actually know that.  (Warren:
wbat does the old system you have do?)

Anyone who wants to verify what John describes for V6 can look in (among
other places) the Lions book; newproc is at line 1826, at the beginning
of slp.c.

Norman Wilson

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Tue Feb 27 10:15:44 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:15:44 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Forks under V6
In-Reply-To: <200102262353.KAA55588@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au> from Norman Wilson
 at "Feb 26, 2001 06:49:13 pm"
Message-ID: <200102270018.f1R0IOT10330@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Norman Wilson:
> I believe the practice John Holden describes from Mini-UNIX (only one
> process in memory at a time, hence a context switch is the same as a
> swap) was also part of the very earliest UNIXes, on the PDP-7 and the
> 11/20, neither of which had hardware memory management.  Dennis Ritchie's
> `Evolution of the UNIX Time-Sharing System' paper (in the October 1984
> Bell Labs Technical Journal, the second issue to be devoted entirely to
> UNIX), tells how it worked in some detail.  It wouldn't surprise me if
> the swap-to-fork mechanism lived on for a while even after the system
> learned about memory management, but I don't actually know that.  (Warren:
> wbat does the old system you have do?)
> Norman Wilson

For the versions on the 11/20 [that's V1, V2 and V3], as there was no
memory protection, there was only 1 process in core at any time. Thus,
the parent was definitely swapped out.


The Nsys kernel (just before V4) also swaps the parent out:

newproc()
{
        /*
         * make proc entry for new proc
         */
	/*
         * swap out old process
         * to make image of new proc
         */
}
(http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/Nsys/sys/nsys/ken/slp.c.html)

We don't have kernel source for V4 :-(. It looks like V5 also swaps
the parent out:
http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/V5/usr/sys/ken/slp.c.html


By V6, the parent could stay in core if there was enough room:

newproc()
{
	/*
         * If there is not enough core for the
         * new process, swap out the current process to generate the
         * copy.
         */
        if(a2 == NULL) {
                savu(u.u_ssav);
                xswap(rpp, 0, 0);
        } else {
        /*
         * There is core, so just copy.
         */
                rpp->p_addr = a2;
                while(n--) copyseg(a1++, a2++);
        }
        u.u_procp = rip;
        return(0);
}
(http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/UnixTree/V6/usr/sys/ken/slp.c.html)

I've omitted some lines of code here and there.

	Warren

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From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Tue Feb 27 13:02:55 2001
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:02:55 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Message-ID: <200102270302.OAA31721@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>


On BA-23 boxes, there is a small, two lever DIP switch. Switch 1 in the
ON position (down) enables BEVENT on the Qbus. Without it enabled, there
will no line time clock interrupts generated, even if the LTC register at
777546 in enabled.

The second switch enables the 'restart' button when ON. Pressing 'restart'
starts a powerup sequence, running diagnostics and starting ODT or the
bootstrap (equivalent to cycling the power). 

On the earlier BA-11 series boxes for the LSI-11 (and /23), there was an
equivalent switch on the front panel labeled  "Aux". It could be used either to
enable the BEVENT or the remote switch for the cabinet power controller. The
11/23plus, 11/53/73 have programable LTC registers, so the switch is normally
left on. On the LSI-11,/2 and early 11/23, you would initially boot the machine
with it off, then enable it.

As for machines hanging without the LTC running, the problem is that the
scheduler (sched) never gets to run, since it sleeps waiting for the 'lbolt'
flag that is only ever set in the clock interrupt service routine. The timeout
queue also doesn't run, so only the internal 'init' process will ever get to run

PS

You can run into problems with the BHALT line, which can be asserted by a line
break on the console line (if enabled), or on some DHV serial card emulations.
Turning off a terminal may be enough to halt the process if it generates a
serial break as the power goes down.


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From cube1 at home.com  Tue Feb 27 13:50:59 2001
From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:50:59 -0600
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <200102262232.JAA55097@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010226213702.04607d00@cirithi>

In case someone didn't put 2+2 together...  The V6 distribution has various 
unix kernels.  I don't recall for sure which kernel is linked to /unix, but 
for sure it is only one of them.

So, if /rpunix is linked to /unix, and you boot rkunix, and then do a ps, 
it will search /unix for the symbol for swapdev, look for the RP device in 
/dev, and not find one.  no swap dev.

The cure is, of course, quite simple:

# chdir /
# ln rkunix unix

And ps will now work fine.

[ Ian might have gotten this directly had he not hidden his real e-mail 
address...  ;-) ]

Jay Jaeger


At 09:32 AM 2/27/01 +1100, you wrote:

>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:49:22 -0800
>From: "Ian King" <iking at killthewabbit.org>
>Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09F85.94050E80
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I =
>execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device".  I'm =
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:27:12 -0800
>From: Ian King <iking at microsoft.com>
>Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0.  Relaetd to this, ps does something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls 'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no in C,
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but "ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:44:23 +1100 (EST)
>From: John Holden <johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
<< snip >>


>The 'ps' command looks up the symbol table of the unix kernel, and gets
>the device entry for swap (_swapdev), and the process table (_proc)
>It would open /dev as file, and read the directory entries to find a matching
>device entry, so it then had the name of a device to open (you cannot open
>a device based only in the major and minor device entries from a user 
>process).
>It also uses /dev to decode tty entries into names.
>
>For 'ps' to work correctly, /unix had to be linked to the real kernel, say
>rkunix.

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com			visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection


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From pino at dohd.org  Tue Feb 27 21:03:54 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:03:54 +0100
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
In-Reply-To: <200102270302.OAA31721@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>; from johnh@psych.usyd.edu.au on Tue, Feb 27, 2001 at 02:02:55PM +1100
References: <200102270302.OAA31721@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <20010227120354.A9872@mud.stack.nl>

John Holden wrote:
> You can run into problems with the BHALT line, which can be asserted by a line
> break on the console line (if enabled), or on some DHV serial card emulations.
> Turning off a terminal may be enough to halt the process if it generates a
> serial break as the power goes down.

On my /53+ running 2.11, it's enough to kick in ODT.. Very anoying, really.
Is there any way to disable this functionality, save rewiring the backplane?

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From iking at microsoft.com  Wed Feb 28 02:56:06 2001
From: iking at microsoft.com (Ian King)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:56:06 -0800
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Message-ID: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C018EEC0A@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

The good news is, this fixed my ps problem - ps now works.  The bad news
is that cc still fails with the following error:

fFatal error in /lib/c0

The lowercase f appears, followed shortly by the rest of the line.  I've
tried the -c option to suppress linking, and still get this error.  I
don't get this error on the Supnik emulator.  

Obviously, one way to do things would be to rebuild the kernel on the
emulator, and transfer it to the PDP-11.  But that seems like cheating.
:-)  Besides, the Supnik emulator is just too freeform; my 11/34a
doesn't have a half-dozen instructions the emulator implements.  I've
tried the DBit E11 emulator (since it gives more control over processor
features), but I can't get it to boot these images. -- Ian 

-----Original Message-----
From: Jay Jaeger [mailto:cube1 at home.com]
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:51 PM
To: pups-digest at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Cc: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com; johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?


In case someone didn't put 2+2 together...  The V6 distribution has
various 
unix kernels.  I don't recall for sure which kernel is linked to /unix,
but 
for sure it is only one of them.

So, if /rpunix is linked to /unix, and you boot rkunix, and then do a
ps, 
it will search /unix for the symbol for swapdev, look for the RP device
in 
/dev, and not find one.  no swap dev.

The cure is, of course, quite simple:

# chdir /
# ln rkunix unix

And ps will now work fine.

[ Ian might have gotten this directly had he not hidden his real e-mail 
address...  ;-) ]

Jay Jaeger


At 09:32 AM 2/27/01 +1100, you wrote:

>Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:49:22 -0800
>From: "Ian King" <iking at killthewabbit.org>
>Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
>- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09F85.94050E80
>Content-Type: text/plain;
>         charset="iso-8859-1"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>I'm working with the install image provided by Ken Wellsch, and when I
=
>execute the 'ps' command I get an error that says "no swap device".
I'm =
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:27:12 -0800
>From: Ian King <iking at microsoft.com>
>Subject: RE: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>I, too, have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed as 0,0.  Relaetd to this, ps does
something
>odd (at least to my experience) with the open() system call - it calls
'open
>("/dev")', without a second argument for mode; that seems like a no-no
in C,
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:52 AM
>To: Roger Ivie
>Cc: PUPS at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
>The "ps" command source appears to be poking around /dev looking for a
>block device that matches the kernel value for swapdev (or something
like
>that) and confirming it is a block device.
>
>Yet I see I have /dev/rk0 mknod'ed 0/0 and it is a block device but
"ps"
>still gripes about "no swap device."
>
>So I'm missing something I guess.
>
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:44:23 +1100 (EST)
>From: John Holden <johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au>
>Subject: Re: [pups] Swap device in V6?
>
<< snip >>


>The 'ps' command looks up the symbol table of the unix kernel, and gets
>the device entry for swap (_swapdev), and the process table (_proc)
>It would open /dev as file, and read the directory entries to find a
matching
>device entry, so it then had the name of a device to open (you cannot
open
>a device based only in the major and minor device entries from a user 
>process).
>It also uses /dev to decode tty entries into names.
>
>For 'ps' to work correctly, /unix had to be linked to the real kernel,
say
>rkunix.

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com			visit
http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection

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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Wed Feb 28 04:27:56 2001
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:27:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Message-ID: <200102271827.KAA16090@chiton.ucsd.edu>

> From owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au Mon Feb 26 13:32 PST 2001
> From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de
> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:15:52 +0100 (CET)
> Subject: Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
> To: sms at moe.2bsd.com
> cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> 
> >> System configuration:
> >> 11/73 (M8192), one with FP accel. or one without. (Jumpers W1..W6 in,
> >> W7..W9 out, so that the CPU enters ODT at power up.)
> > 
> > 	There is a jumper (I forget which one) that enables/disables the
> > 	'halt' instruction. 
> BINGO! Pulling W5 solved the problem. But then I seted it again to
> double check. (I changed location today and took only the cards and
> disk with me.) In the "new" BA23 the system runs even with the W5
> jumper installed. Then I noticed the different setting of the front
> panel DIP swich. The upper switch is off and the lower on. The switches
> of the other cabinet are both on. If I boot the machine with W5
> installed and the upper switch on it hangs. It continues to run
> immediately if it is switched off. What is the purpose of this
> switches? 

Quote from _Microcomputer Products Handbook_ EB26078 41/85 (DEC)

"Control Panel
  . . .
The 2-position linetime clock (LTC) switch (switch 1) is used to enable
or disable the LTC function.  Setting switch 1 ON enables the LTC to
function under software control.  Setting switch 1 to the OFF position
disables the LTC function.  The other 2-position switch (switch 2) is
not used."

Note (by me) this refers to microPDP usage of the BA23.  The LTC is not
used by the microVAX which could occupy the same box.

    carl



From tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO  Wed Feb 28 04:27:24 2001
From: tih at Hamartun.Priv.NO (Tom Ivar Helbekkmo)
Date: 27 Feb 2001 19:27:24 +0100
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz"'s message of "Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:22:23 -0800 (PST)"
References: <200102261822.f1QIMNt09941@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <864rxgdlrn.fsf@barsoom.Hamartun.Priv.NO>

"Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com> writes:

> > BTW: What serial parameters does 2.11BSD use? The first time I booted
> > UNIX I got garbage after "user mem  = 307200". I seted the vt220 to 7e1
> > and this worked, but is it correct?
> 
> 	Yes, 7e1 is correct - a legacy setting from eons ago.

This bothered me enough, a handful years ago, to change things a bit:

For getty/main.c:

*** main.c.ORIG	Thu Dec 29 17:22:13 1994
--- main.c	Thu Dec 29 17:21:28 1994
***************
*** 383,391 ****
--- 383,393 ----
  	char c;
  
  	c = cc;
+ #ifdef notdef /* hack to get rid of parity in getty */
  	c |= partab[c&0177] & 0200;
  	if (OP)
  		c ^= 0200;
+ #endif /* parity hack */
  	if (!UB) {
  		outbuf[obufcnt++] = c;
  		if (obufcnt >= OBUFSIZ)

For pdp/cons.c:

*** cons.c.ORIG	Sun May 11 11:21:01 1997
--- cons.c	Sun May 11 11:26:05 1997
***************
*** 62,68 ****
  	if ((tp->t_state&TS_ISOPEN) == 0) {
  		ttychars(tp);
  		tp->t_state = TS_ISOPEN|TS_CARR_ON;
! 		tp->t_flags = EVENP|ECHO|XTABS|CRMOD;
  	}
  	if (tp->t_state&TS_XCLUDE && u.u_uid != 0)
  		return (EBUSY);
--- 62,68 ----
  	if ((tp->t_state&TS_ISOPEN) == 0) {
  		ttychars(tp);
  		tp->t_state = TS_ISOPEN|TS_CARR_ON;
! 		tp->t_flags = ANYP|ECHO|XTABS|CRMOD;
  	}
  	if (tp->t_state&TS_XCLUDE && u.u_uid != 0)
  		return (EBUSY);

For sys/tty.c:

*** tty.c.ORIG	Sun May 11 11:21:40 1997
--- tty.c	Sun May 11 11:27:40 1997
***************
*** 48,53 ****
--- 48,54 ----
   */
  
  char partab[] = {
+ #ifdef notdef /* even parity setup */
  	0001,0201,0201,0001,0201,0001,0001,0201,
  	0202,0004,0003,0201,0005,0206,0201,0001,
  	0201,0001,0001,0201,0001,0201,0201,0001,
***************
*** 64,69 ****
--- 65,88 ----
  	0200,0000,0000,0200,0000,0200,0200,0000,
  	0200,0000,0000,0200,0000,0200,0200,0000,
  	0000,0200,0200,0000,0200,0000,0000,0201,
+ #else /* no parity setup follows */
+ 	0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,
+ 	0002,0004,0003,0001,0005,0006,0001,0001,
+ 	0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,
+ 	0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,0001,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,
+ 	0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0000,0001,
+ #endif /* end of parity selection stuff */
  
  	/*
  	 * 7 bit ascii ends with the last character above,

Hmm.  It's been a while.  I should fire up the old /83 and get all the
latest patches from Steven applied, while it's still winter, and I can
run it and the VAX without overheating my machine room.  :-)

-tih
-- 
Popularity is the hallmark of mediocrity.  --Niles Crane, "Frasier"


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From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Wed Feb 28 06:01:50 2001
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:01:50 +0100
Subject: [pups] DEC Ultrix-11 V3.1
Message-ID: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32CC3@mwnt4.microwalt.nl>

All,

Just a note to let you know that I am making good progress on
getting my modified Ultrix-11 V3.1 up and running.  I'll be
uploading disk images of various MicroPDP-11 (/23, /53, /73,
/83) based systems for you to enjoy :)

Most of all, I should be able to run TK50 install tapes again as
of next week, given my working 11/83 with TK50.

Many thanks go to Bill Gunshannon for the initial image (I could
not get my boot tapes to work), Warren Toomey for letting me play
lots with VTserver and integrating it into Ultrix, Kees Stravers
for giving me the hardware I needed, and, of course, to The
Wanderer for figuring out my hardware problemns with me :)

Cheers,
	Fred


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From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Wed Feb 28 06:26:56 2001
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:26:56 +0100
Subject: [pups] DEC Ultrix-11 V3.1  part II
Message-ID: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32CC4@mwnt4.microwalt.nl>

All,

> Many thanks go to ...

Blah!  And of course to Wilko Bulte, who provided the dumps of the
original V3.1 tapes, and with whom I spent quite some time debugging
the why-doesn-this-work problems with the initial tape dump files...

Fred (compiling stuff on the PDP so he can transfer stuff in and out
of the box without having to use the slow VTserver link ;-)


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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Feb 28 07:15:34 2001
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:15:34 +0100 (CET)
Subject: cabinet issues (Re: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.)
In-Reply-To: <200102270302.OAA31721@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <200102272115.WAA20346@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 27 Feb, John Holden wrote:

> On BA-23 boxes, there is a small, two lever DIP switch. [...]
Thanks for the enlightening.

As we are on the topic cabinets: Can a 11/73 run in a BA21x or BA440
cabinet? 

> You can run into problems with the BHALT line, which can be asserted by a line
> break on the console line [...]
That is the reason why I disconnect console terminals bevore I power
them off (if there is no break disable switch on the machine). :-)
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Feb 28 07:19:39 2001
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:19:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
In-Reply-To: <200102262226.f1QMQOv11403@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <200102272119.WAA20351@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 26 Feb, Steven M. Schultz wrote:

> 	I suspect that one of the switches enables the line frequency clock.
> 	With out a clock running things will work (at least minimally) as
> 	long as there are some interrupts happening.   
Hmm? Why will it run with_out_ a clock?

>> OK. The machine is currently un-tar-ing /usr... :-)))
> 
> 	Fantastic!
The next adventure is un-tar-ing the source and build my own kernel...
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Wed Feb 28 13:24:22 2001
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:24:22 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
Message-ID: <200102280324.OAA16488@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>

> The good news is, this fixed my ps problem - ps now works.  The bad news
> is that cc still fails with the following error:
> 
> fFatal error in /lib/c0
> 
> The lowercase f appears, followed shortly by the rest of the line.  I've
> tried the -c option to suppress linking, and still get this error.  I
> don't get this error on the Supnik emulator.  

'/lib/c0' is the first pass of the C compiler, after the preprocessor
has be run (the order is cc, c0, c1, c2 for the optimiser, and then 'as'
to produce the object file). I dimly recall that the various passes forked
by 'cc' didn't bother to catch signals, so any error just gives the
"Fatal error in ..." message. The '-c' would have no effect this early.

You could try the '-f' option, that uses a different compiler (with FP
emulation).

Assuming that you don't have a corrupted binary, or faulty processor/memory,
then is one obscure possibility. While a user program will not see any
difference between a 11/34 and 11/40 (except for floating point instructions),
the behaviour after a memory management fault IS different. The non ID space
processors (11/23/34/35/40/60) don't have a register to record the changes
in the general cpu registers after a fault, and it has to be calculated in
software. The 34 and 40 leave the registers in different states after a fault.

The classic example is "cmp -(sp), -(sp)" to extend the stack. This may generate
a fault because the stack needs to grow dynamically. The kernel extends the
stack (where automatic variables are allocated), and then attempts to 
reexecute the instruction. In the case of a 34 using a standard m40.s,
it sometimes gets it wrong, and is very program and data dependent.

Does this ring any bells with people having ported unix to 11/34's?


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Feb 28 13:54:49 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:54:49 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <200102280324.OAA16488@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au> from John Holden
 at "Feb 28, 2001 02:24:22 pm"
Message-ID: <200102280354.f1S3soX00509@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by John Holden:
> > The good news is, this fixed my ps problem - ps now works.  The bad news
> > is that cc still fails with the following error:
> > fFatal error in /lib/c0
> 
> Assuming that you don't have a corrupted binary, or faulty processor/memory,
> then is one obscure possibility. While a user program will not see any
> difference between a 11/34 and 11/40 (except for floating point instructions),
> the behaviour after a memory management fault IS different. The non ID space
> processors (11/23/34/35/40/60) don't have a register to record the changes
> in the general cpu registers after a fault, and it has to be calculated in
> software. The 34 and 40 leave the registers in different states after a fault.
> 
>The classic example is "cmp -(sp), -(sp)" to extend the stack.This may generate
> a fault because the stack needs to grow dynamically. The kernel extends the
> stack (where automatic variables are allocated), and then attempts to 
> reexecute the instruction. In the case of a 34 using a standard m40.s,
> it sometimes gets it wrong, and is very program and data dependent.
> 
> Does this ring any bells with people having ported unix to 11/34's?

That comment made me go through and scan my old AUUGNs for some articles
written by Dave Horsfall [who is on this mailing list]. I found his
article on porting V6 to the 11/23, but not for a port to the 11/34.

However, at least two tar files in the UNIX Archive have an m34.s in them:

Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_80_delaware.gz:
	delaware/maryland/os40/m34.s

Applications/Shoppa_Tapes/usenix_80_delaware.gz:m34.s:
	toronto/case/sys/conf/m34.s

The first appears to be modifications to V6, I haven't checked the latter
yet. It may be something worth pursuing.

	Warren

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From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Feb 28 13:53:22 2001
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:53:22 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <200102280324.OAA16488@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102281452230.2716-100000@fgh.au.geac.com>

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, John Holden wrote:

> The classic example is "cmp -(sp), -(sp)" to extend the stack. This may generate
[...]
> Does this ring any bells with people having ported unix to 11/34's?

I have actual code on how we handled this in those days; who wants it?

-- 
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493  Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Feb 28 14:00:30 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:00:30 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Swap device in V6?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102281452230.2716-100000@fgh.au.geac.com> from Dave
 Horsfall at "Feb 28, 2001 02:53:22 pm"
Message-ID: <200102280400.f1S40Uk00578@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Dave Horsfall:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, John Holden wrote:
> > The classic example is "cmp -(sp), -(sp)" to extend the stack. This may generate
> [...]
> > Does this ring any bells with people having ported unix to 11/34's?
> I have actual code on how we handled this in those days; who wants it?

Mail it to me and I'll drop it in the archive somewhere.
Thanks Dave!
	Warren


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Wed Feb 28 14:15:34 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:15:34 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] V6 or V6 patches for 11/34
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102281500120.2716-400000@fgh.au.geac.com> from Dave
 Horsfall at "Feb 28, 2001 03:02:28 pm"
Message-ID: <200102280415.f1S4FYA00697@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

In article by Dave Horsfall:
> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > Mail it to me and I'll drop it in the archive somewhere.
> As attached...  I see it actually came from ChemEng.  It's for the 11/60,
> but has the 11/34 stuff in there as well.
> 
> PS: I'm sure I did a port to the 11/34 :-)

I have moved the 11/34 patches into the UNIX Archive at

	PDP-11/Bug_Fixes/V7_on11-34

They look like V7 patches though, so they may not be readily
usable on a V6 system. Those other files I mentioned may be
better. Your mileage may vary :-)

Dave, did you write an AUUGN paper for an 11/34 port, and what year
so I can go back and have another look.

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From johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au  Wed Feb 28 14:15:46 2001
From: johnh at psych.usyd.edu.au (John Holden)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:15:46 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD boot hangs.
Message-ID: <200102280415.PAA17381@psychwarp.psych.usyd.edu.au>


>John Holden wrote:
>> You can run into problems with the BHALT line, which can be asserted by a line
>> break on the console line (if enabled), or on some DHV serial card emulations.
>> Turning off a terminal may be enough to halt the process if it generates a
>> serial break as the power goes down.
>
>On my /53+ running 2.11, it's enough to kick in ODT.. Very anoying, really.
>Is there any way to disable this functionality, save rewiring the backplane?

You can usually disable the HALT on break feature. When the console is on
a separate serial card :-

DEC	DLV11-E or F	Remove jumper on wire-wrap pin H

DEC	DLV11-J		wire-wrap pins X-B enables boot on break
			wire-wrap pins X-H enable halt (ODT) on break
			nothing on X disables both

Webster	WQDHV		switch 4 at J9 OFF to ignore break.

For processor cards with serial ports, I only have a manual for 11/23+. DEC
is pretty consistent, so there should be options on 11/53 and latter 11/73's.

11/23+	KDF11-B?	Remove jumper from J5-J4 and connect J3-J4
			The jumpers aren't marked on the PCB, so looking
			at the board with the Qbus fingers at the bottom,
			handles at the top, there is a vertical row of
			three jumpers on the right hand side of the board.
			towards the bottom. Top to bottom is J5, J4 and J3.
		
If anybody has manuals for 11/53+ and the quad slot 11/73's and can send me
the details, I'll collate the information, and add it to my web page at :-

	http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/

The 11/53+ I have does have lots of jumpers, but no numbers or letters beside
them.

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From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Feb 28 15:59:41 2001
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:59:41 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Re: V6 or V6 patches for 11/34
In-Reply-To: <200102280415.f1S4FYA00697@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102281656310.2716-100000@fgh.au.geac.com>

On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Warren Toomey wrote:

> Dave, did you write an AUUGN paper for an 11/34 port, and what year
> so I can go back and have another look.

Vol 1 No 6.  "Implementing UNIX on a PDP-11/34" (sub-titled: "What does
the `F' in "RK05-F" really stand for ?").

I still have the nroff source available...  It's about 1983-ish.

-- 
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493  Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk  Wed Feb 28 23:05:27 2001
From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk (robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:05:27 +0000
Subject: [pups] TS05
Message-ID: <00256A01.0048DD1E.00@postoffice.co.uk>



Dear All,
I now have one of these but the tape hub locking mechanism is acting up.  Has
anyone got a set of the maintenance docs for a TS05 that they can scan for me?

Regards

Robin




From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Feb  1 02:07:09 2001
From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:07:09 -0500
Subject: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10101302039390.3188-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <3A78382D.37188B15@tampabay.rr.com>

Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Ken Wellsch wrote:
> 
> > Don't forget to type 'date' when logged in ... it is a hoot to see B^)
> >
> > Oh heck, never thought to actually try to set the date, post 2000...
> > maybe better to let it live back in 1975...
> 
> I assume it is just like Ultrix-11 was, soooooo
> Here's a quick way to get the date right until you get a chance to
> install a fixed "date" command.  Yes, it is only the date command
> that is not Y2K ready.

No, V6 predates Ultrix-11 by just a bit I believe.

The date setting format on V6 appears to be '1231245999', that is
two digits for: month, day, hour, minute, year.  A trailing 'p' means
the hours are 12 based (and it is PM), otherwise 24 based.

I can confirm as I expected that setting 0131110301 puts me at 1970 B^)

No big deal.  I can see in the 'date' source what it is doing...

Thanks for the 'put it into the year 2001' method!

-- Ken


From rdonkin at bigfoot.com  Thu Feb  1 08:28:44 2001
From: rdonkin at bigfoot.com (Richard Donkin)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:28:44 +0000
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
Message-ID: <3A78919C.3D604E23@bigfoot.com>

I'm running 2.11BSD on the Supnik simulator, and wondering how to get it
networked.  
This sim seems to only support serial lines, so maybe I have to move
over to the 
Begemot simulator - in which case, is it best to use FreeBSD or Linux as
the host
for the sim?  I'm more familiar with Linux but I have FreeBSD running
now - the question
is what's easier to set up for networking.

Does anyone have a working Begemot sim setup with networking, used with
2.11BSD?  If so,
could you post your config files?  The Begemot sim seems a lot more
complex to set up
than Supnik.

Cheers,

Richard

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From rdonkin at bigfoot.com  Thu Feb  1 08:42:02 2001
From: rdonkin at bigfoot.com (Richard Donkin)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 22:42:02 +0000
Subject: [pups] File exchange with Supnik sim
Message-ID: <3A7894BA.370723F0@bigfoot.com>

I've tried the suggestions for getting files in and out of the Supnik
sim,
in particular using rl0 mapped to x.tar, and 'tar cvf /dev/rrl0a
/etc/hosts'.
However, tar complains: 'tar: tape write error: Read-only file system'.

The disklabel for rl0 looks like:

# /dev/rrl0a:
type: old DEC
disk: 
label: 
flags:
bytes/sector: 512
sectors/track: 20
tracks/cylinder: 2
sectors/cylinder: 40
cylinders: 0
rpm: 0
interleave: 0
trackskew: 0
cylinderskew: 0
headswitch: 0           # milliseconds
track-to-track seek: 0  # milliseconds
drivedata: 0 

1 partitions:
#        size   offset    fstype   [fsize bsize]
  a:    10240        0   2.11BSD     1024  1024         # (Cyl.    0 -
255)
cylinders/unit 0
Warning, revolutions/minute 0
boot block size 0
super block size 0
partition a: extends past end of unit 0 10240 0

Presumably I need to create a valid disklabel, but it would be good to
have some advice on what a valid one
would look like.

I've also tried the same sort of thing with 'tar cvbBf 20 /dev/rmt0
/etc/hosts', and 
something like a tar file is produced - however, GNU tar on Linux and
FreeBSD 4.2 tar can't
read this, saying 'this doesn't look like a tar file'.  Is there some
trick to getting this
to work, and am I better off using rl0 or rmt0? 

Richard

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Feb  1 09:14:49 2001
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:44:49 +1030
Subject: [pups] Re: 2.11BSD networking on simulator
In-Reply-To: <3A78919C.3D604E23@bigfoot.com>; from rdonkin@bigfoot.com on Wed, Jan 31, 2001 at 10:28:44PM +0000
References: <3A78919C.3D604E23@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <20010201094448.D70596@wantadilla.lemis.com>

[Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html]

Your message contained alternate long and short lines

On Wednesday, 31 January 2001 at 22:28:44 +0000, Richard Donkin wrote:
> I'm running 2.11BSD on the Supnik simulator, and wondering how to
> get it networked.  This sim seems to only support serial lines, so
> maybe I have to move over to the Begemot simulator - in which case,
> is it best to use FreeBSD or Linux as the host for the sim?  I'm
> more familiar with Linux but I have FreeBSD running now - the
> question is what's easier to set up for networking.

The Begemot emulator was written on BSD, so you'll probably find it
easier to use under FreeBSD.

> Does anyone have a working Begemot sim setup with networking, used
> with 2.11BSD?  If so, could you post your config files?  The Begemot
> sim seems a lot more complex to set up than Supnik.

*sigh* I used to, and it worked well.  A number of changes in FreeBSD
have rendered the emulator non-functional, and I haven't had time to
find out what's wrong.  I'll take a look and see if I can see anything
obvious, but it might take me a while.

Greg
--
When replying to this message, please take care not to mutilate the
original text.  
For more information, see http://www.lemis.com/email.html
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key
See complete headers for address and phone numbers

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Thu Feb  1 09:17:54 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:17:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
Message-ID: <200101312317.f0VNHsd17441@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Richard Donkin <rdonkin at bigfoot.com>
> I'm running 2.11BSD on the Supnik simulator, and wondering how to get it
> networked.  

	It can not be done except perhaps with a SL/IP link.  The Supnik 
	simulator does not have an emulated ethernet device.

> Begemot simulator - in which case, is it best to use FreeBSD or Linux as
> the host

	I use BSD/OS myself, but FreeBSD works very nicely also.  I've not
	tried it with linux.

> Does anyone have a working Begemot sim setup with networking, used with
> 2.11BSD?  If so,

	Quite a few folks have it running.   

> could you post your config files?  The Begemot sim seems a lot more
> complex to set up than Supnik.
	
	Yes, it is quite a bit more complex (cryptic) to set up.

	Here's what I use to run P11 with.  If you strip out all of the
	macro preprocessing stuff the config file is much more readable and
	not nearly as cryptic as before.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

------------------
set clock_rate 60

ctrl rk 017777400 0220 5 4000
end

ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
end

ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
dev 0 ./2.11BSD  1999
dev 1 ./junk  1999
end

ctrl kl
dev 017777560  060  064 4 tty_net  -7 -t 10000
dev 017776500 0300 0304 4 tty_net  -7 -t 10001
end

ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
end

ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
end

ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
# dev 0 /tmp/foo
end

ctrl qna 017774440 5 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0xf8:0x7a qna.rom
dev epp_tun tun0 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x6c 0x08:0x00:0x2b:0x07:0x82:0x00
end

# The toy clock.
#
ctrl toy 017777526
end

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From kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com  Thu Feb  1 11:37:29 2001
From: kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com (Ken Wellsch)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:37:29 -0500
Subject: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
References: <200101302330.PAA29420@chiton.ucsd.edu>
Message-ID: <3A78BDD9.995B3F42@tampabay.rr.com>

Carl Lowenstein wrote:
> 
> > From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au Tue Jan 30 14:16 PST 2001
> >
> > Yes, but it doesn't boot on an 11/34 :(
> > That's the problem.
> 
> Why, said he wonderingly.  Is the 11/34 one of those machines that does
> not have a directly addressable PSW at 177776 so it must be done with
> MPTS and MFPS instructions?  Thats all I can think of immediately.
>
>	...

When I looked last night at the machine assist (mch.s) for Ultrix-11/3.1
source, all I could easily find was consistent with this, contained in
the V6 start document:

    The main difference between an 11/40 and an 11/45 (or 11/70)
    system is that in the former instruction restart after a
    segmentation violation caused by overflowing a user stack
    must be handled by software, while in the latter machines
    there is hardware help.

which in more detail means, if I understand right, there is no SSR2
register in the MMU so the kernel code needs to disassemble the
instruction to backup over it for restarting as per above.

The Ultrix mch.s file has code that does this (quite a lot) and I
noticed a few cases that checked it the cputype is 34.

Cheers,

-- Ken

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From robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk  Thu Feb  1 18:59:30 2001
From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk (robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 08:59:30 +0000
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
Message-ID: <002569E6.00324BF2.00@postoffice.co.uk>



I have the begemot simulator running very effectively on Linux, although I have
not used the emulated ethernet connection.  If anyone knows how to set this up
on linux then I would welcome some help.

I must say that although p11 takes quite a bit of setting up it is well worth
the trouble.

Regards

Robin



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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Fri Feb  2 03:35:13 2001
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 09:35:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
Message-ID: <200102011735.JAA05794@chiton.ucsd.edu>

> From iking at microsoft.com Tue Jan 30 15:27 PST 2001
> From: Ian King <iking at microsoft.com>
> To: "'Ken Wellsch'" <kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com>,
>         Carl Lowenstein
> 	 <cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu>
> Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: RE: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
> Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 14:38:15 -0800
> 
> Ken, I tried using that image and gunzip told me there was a crc error; it
> wouldn't unzip it.  (I downloaded it three times, just in case there was a
> transmission error -- twice by ftp, once by http.)  I've also tried the
> "Dennis" images, which are supposedly straight RK05 images; E11 won't boot
> 'em.  One issue on which I'm not clear: where is the boot address?  Stuff at
> loc 0 doesn't look like boot instructions.  
> 
> If I could get an image to run in an emulator (as I mentioned, I'm running
> E11 from DBit), I'd write some cheesy little loader to bring it down the
> serial line (I already have it sketched out); but until I can at least get
> one to boot in the emulator, I'm reluctant to spend the hours (at 9600 baud)
> to spray it onto a disk.  <sigh>  

Well, as some response to this challenge "get an image to run in an emulator",
I visited Bob Supnik's Computer History Simulation Project web page

	<www.tiac.net/users/mps/retro/>

and followed the links to the sources for SIMH v2.5a and to the Unix V6
disk images.

I read the documentation file "simh_doc.txt", and compiled the
simulator.  Then I read "simh_swre.txt", unpacked the V6 images, ran
the simulator and attached the three RK05 images to it, and booted
RK0.  All according to the instructions.

I got the bootstrap prompt "@" to which I typed "unix" and it came up
with a "login:" prompt, to which I could log in as root, and do things.

It's not quite the same V6 image that I remember from the olden days of
loading onto an 11/40 from magtape.  The login prompt seems not to be
";login:" as we still see on the Usenix magazine.  dmr's account seems
to have vanished but ken's is still there.  And that's how I spent a
few hours last night.

In case it matters, the underlying hardware/software platform is an AMD
K6-3 running Mandrake 7.1 Linux.

    carl

        carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
        {decvax|ucbvax} !ucsd!mpl!cdl                 cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu
                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu


From mayhew at altavista.com  Fri Feb  2 08:30:43 2001
From: mayhew at altavista.com (Bill Mayhew)
Date: 1 Feb 2001 14:30:43 -0800
Subject: FW: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
Message-ID: <20010201223043.20658.cpmta@c012.sfo.cp.net>

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From cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu  Fri Feb  2 10:22:10 2001
From: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:22:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FW: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
Message-ID: <200102020022.QAA11849@chiton.ucsd.edu>

 pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> From mayhew at altavista.com Thu Feb  1 14:31 PST 2001
> Date: 1 Feb 2001 14:30:43 -0800
> X-Sent: 1 Feb 2001 22:30:43 GMT
> To: cdl at mpl.ucsd.edu
> From: Bill Mayhew <mayhew at altavista.com>
> Cc: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
> Subject: Re: FW: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
> 
> This is a real stretch for my brain, but I seem to recall that the
> ";" that appeared in ";login:" in the 1970s was sort-of "bleed-through"
> from an escape sequence that was intended to do cursor positioning
> and/or screen-clearing on some terminals... or something like that...
> therefore its absence would not necessarily be significant on different
> hardware.

Oh, yes.  I was just hiding my previous knowledge.  The ";" and ":" in
the login prompt were the visible part of escape sequences to control a
Teletype KSR37.  They didn't do anything useful on a VT05 but did show
up on the screen.

Unix Sixth Edition predates the common availability of even the dumbest
CRT terminals.  There are still a lot of TTY37 control codes hanging
around in nroff output.

    carl


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From robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk  Sat Feb  3 00:04:42 2001
From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk (robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 14:04:42 +0000
Subject: [pups] makedepend
Message-ID: <002569E7.004E3D33.00@postoffice.co.uk>



Ok, I know that this isn't to do with a pdp or ancient unix but does anyone know
where I can find the sources for makedepend ?

REgards

Robin



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From iking at microsoft.com  Sat Feb  3 03:03:59 2001
From: iking at microsoft.com (Ian King)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:03:59 -0800 
Subject: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?
Message-ID: <8D25F244B8274141B5D313CA4823F39C138A34@red-msg-06.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>

After seeing all the mail of success with the Supnik emulator, I found a
compiled copy and tried that -- and got to a login: prompt!  That's with the
image you sent me -- many thanks.  I'm going to have to learn more about the
Supnik emulator now; in particular, I need to understand how to set it for a
given processor emulation, so that once I rebuild the system to run on a '34
(which is supposed to be feasible), I can be reasonably sure it will work
once it's ported over to the real machine. 

NOTE: neither simulator will run in a DOS box on Windows 2000.  E11 starts
up, but has problem accessing files (you can't MOUNT a file as a device).
Supnik just won't go at all.  I've been running my emulator on a DOS machine
(actually, an old 486 laptop; hey guys, I have a laptop PDP-11!).  

Cheers -- Ian 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Wellsch [mailto:kwellsch at tampabay.rr.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:20 AM
To: pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au
Subject: Re: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?


Ian King wrote:
> 
> Ken, I tried using that image and gunzip told me there was a crc error; it
> wouldn't unzip it.  (I downloaded it three times, just in case there was a
> transmission error -- twice by ftp, once by http.)

So going over all the things I can easily do data integrity checks on, I've
run 'gzip -tv' on all the GZip'ed things and found three that are apparently
damaged:

gzip: ./PDP-11/Distributions/dec/Ultrix-3.1/ultrix-3.1-bootape.tar.gz:
              invalid compressed data--crc error
gzip: ./PDP-11/Distributions/research/Ken_Wellsch_v6/v6.tape.gz:
              invalid compressed data--crc error
gzip: ./PDP-11/Distributions/unsw/90/record0.gz:
              invalid compressed data--crc error

I can't comment on the *.Z compressed archives as they do not do any crc.

I will have to peruse my stack of archive CD's made at various stages of
the archive to see if I have the other two (I have a good 'v6.tape.gz'
file).

I did not try and run the MD5 list yet.  But this is an example of why I
had been pushing for the use of MD5 for all items in the archive...  B^)

-- Ken


From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Feb  3 07:05:13 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 13:05:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] makedepend
Message-ID: <200102022105.f12L5Dg00565@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi Robin -

> From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk
> 
> I know that this isn't to do with a pdp or ancient unix but does anyone know
> where I can find the sources for makedepend ?

	It's installed in

		/usr/src/X11/xc/config/makedepend

	on the systems I have looked on.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From rdonkin at bigfoot.com  Sat Feb  3 19:51:28 2001
From: rdonkin at bigfoot.com (Richard Donkin)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 09:51:28 +0000
Subject: [pups] Re: 2.11BSD networking on simulator
References: <3A78919C.3D604E23@bigfoot.com> <20010201094448.D70596@wantadilla.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <3A7BD4A0.D58E2F80@bigfoot.com>

Greg Lehey wrote:
> 
> The Begemot emulator was written on BSD, so you'll probably find it
> easier to use under FreeBSD.
> 
> > Does anyone have a working Begemot sim setup with networking, used
> > with 2.11BSD?  If so, could you post your config files?  The Begemot
> > sim seems a lot more complex to set up than Supnik.
> 
> *sigh* I used to, and it worked well.  A number of changes in FreeBSD
> have rendered the emulator non-functional, and I haven't had time to
> find out what's wrong.  I'll take a look and see if I can see anything
> obvious, but it might take me a while.

Thanks - do you know what FreeBSD version it last worked on?  Also,
which 
version of P11 you are using?  I'm not doing anything significant with
the FreeBSD
box (it's a virtual machine under VMware) so re-installing is not a
problem.

Richard

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From rdonkin at bigfoot.com  Sat Feb  3 19:54:37 2001
From: rdonkin at bigfoot.com (Richard Donkin)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 09:54:37 +0000
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
References: <200101312317.f0VNHsd17441@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <3A7BD55D.B64B221B@bigfoot.com>

"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
...
>         I use BSD/OS myself, but FreeBSD works very nicely also.  I've not
>         tried it with linux.

Could you let me know the FreeBSD and Begemot P11 versions you were
using? (Anyone
else who has a working combination, feel free to jump in!)

Thanks very much for the config file, that should make life a lot
easier... And
thanks for all your efforts in updating 2.11BSD - very impressive to get
a full
fledged BSD system on a PDP-11!

Cheers

Richard


From pa at cdg.chalmers.se  Sun Feb  4 07:10:48 2001
From: pa at cdg.chalmers.se (Per Andersson)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:10:48 +0100 (MET)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
In-Reply-To: <3A7BD55D.B64B221B@bigfoot.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000@wilfer4.cdg.chalmers.se>



On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Richard Donkin wrote:

> "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
> ...
> >         I use BSD/OS myself, but FreeBSD works very nicely also.  I've not
> >         tried it with linux.
>
> Could you let me know the FreeBSD and Begemot P11 versions you were
> using? (Anyone
> else who has a working combination, feel free to jump in!)

This might not be state-of-the-art (but thats not the point anyway), I'm
running p11 version 2.5 on an FreeBSD 3.4 machine and it works ok, the main
problem I have found is that after a while the clock starts to run slow,
at the momement it thinks it's christmas eve (after beeing up about 130 days).


	/Per Andersson



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From bill at cs.scranton.edu  Sun Feb  4 08:23:08 2001
From: bill at cs.scranton.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 17:23:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000@wilfer4.cdg.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102031721020.6311-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>

On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Per Andersson wrote:

> 
> This might not be state-of-the-art (but thats not the point anyway), I'm
> running p11 version 2.5 on an FreeBSD 3.4 machine and it works ok, the main

Where can I find this Begemot P11 Emulator??  I visited the Begemot site
but the link to products doesn't appear to work.  I have tried E11 (demo
version) and the Supnil Emulator, but have never heard of this one til now.

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>   


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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sun Feb  4 09:45:42 2001
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 23:45:42 +0000
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000@wilfer4.cdg.chalmers.se>
References: <3A7BD55D.B64B221B@bigfoot.com>
 <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000@wilfer4.cdg.chalmers.se>
Message-ID: <e+SmvUAmgJf6Ew48@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000 at wilfer4.cdg.chalmers
.se>, Per Andersson <pa at cdg.chalmers.se> writes
>
>
>On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Richard Donkin wrote:
>
>> "Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>> ...
>> >         I use BSD/OS myself, but FreeBSD works very nicely also.  I've not
>> >         tried it with linux.
>>
>> Could you let me know the FreeBSD and Begemot P11 versions you were
>> using? (Anyone
>> else who has a working combination, feel free to jump in!)
>
>This might not be state-of-the-art (but thats not the point anyway), I'm
>running p11 version 2.5 on an FreeBSD 3.4 machine and it works ok, the main
>problem I have found is that after a while the clock starts to run slow,
>at the momement it thinks it's christmas eve (after beeing up about 130 days).
>
>
>       /Per Andersson
>
>
Hi,
Harti Brandt, the guy who wrote this package is shortly (I hope :-))
going to release a new version that includes a clock patch that Steve
Schultz dreamt up.  

Regards

Robin

Currently running P11 on linux
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From robin at ruffnready.co.uk  Sun Feb  4 09:47:06 2001
From: robin at ruffnready.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 23:47:06 +0000
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102031721020.6311-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102032157010.4898-100000@wilfer4.cdg.chalmers.se>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102031721020.6311-100000@triangle.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <S+VlfhA6hJf6EwZk@ruffnready.co.uk>

In message <Pine.LNX.4.10.10102031721020.6311-100000 at triangle.cs.uofs.ed
u>, Bill Gunshannon <bill at cs.scranton.edu> writes
>On Sat, 3 Feb 2001, Per Andersson wrote:
>
>> 
>> This might not be state-of-the-art (but thats not the point anyway), I'm
>> running p11 version 2.5 on an FreeBSD 3.4 machine and it works ok, the main
>
>Where can I find this Begemot P11 Emulator??  I visited the Begemot site
>but the link to products doesn't appear to work.  I have tried E11 (demo
>version) and the Supnil Emulator, but have never heard of this one til now.
>
>bill
>
There is an oldish version on the pups archive.  I believe that harti is
going to release a newer version soon.

regards

Robin
____________________________________________________________________
Robin Birch     robin at ruffnready.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ/M5ABD     Old computers and radios always welcome

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sun Feb  4 10:03:00 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 16:03:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
Message-ID: <200102040003.f14030W16555@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Per Andersson <pa at cdg.chalmers.se>
> 
> This might not be state-of-the-art (but thats not the point anyway), I'm
> running p11 version 2.5 on an FreeBSD 3.4 machine and it works ok, the main
> problem I have found is that after a while the clock starts to run slow,
> at the momement it thinks it's christmas eve (after beeing up about 130 days).

	The bug is an arithmetic overflow in the clock computations.  After
	about 24 days (with 60Hz power in the US) the number of ticks the
	virtual machine has been up overflows 32 bits and time behaves very
	strange.

	Apply the patch below to 'device.c' and the problem goes away - it did
	for me.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

--- device.c.dist	Sat Mar  4 00:03:28 2000
+++ device.c	Fri Sep 29 23:59:10 2000
@@ -203,6 +203,7 @@
 	int secs;
 	int newrate, diff;
 	int newdir;
+	double dnow, dstart;
 
 	for(t = timeouts; t < &timeouts[ntimeouts]; t++)
 		if(t->time && --t->curr == 0) {
@@ -223,9 +224,9 @@
 	 * to the number we have elapsed
 	 */
 	gettimeofday(&tv, NULL);
-	secs = ((1000 * tv.tv_sec + tv.tv_usec/1000)
-	     - (1000 * timer.start.tv_sec + timer.start.tv_usec/1000))
-	     / 1000;
+	dstart = 1000.0 * timer.start.tv_sec + timer.start.tv_usec/1000.0;
+	dnow = 1000.0 * tv.tv_sec + tv.tv_usec/1000.0;
+	secs = (dnow - dstart) / 1000.0;
 
 	newrate = 1000000 / clock_rate;
 

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From cube1 at home.com  Sun Feb  4 10:50:25 2001
From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 18:50:25 -0600
Subject: [pups] V6 and PDP-11/34
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010203184258.00bda9f0@cirithi>

I *have* *run* the standard Unix V6 distribution on my PDP 11/34.  Works 
just fine.

I also compared my V6 distribution image with the one on PUPS (years ago) 
and they matched just fine.

Load the pack from the RK05 image after the 100 (IIRC) block tape to disk 
loader program [how you get it there is another issue, of course...  8-)], 
boot up, type rkunix at the "@" and away you go.

I did not use the tape to disk program on the tape image, however -- I 
didn't have a tape drive at the time IIRC.  I have a standalone program 
that used a parallel port on my PC and a DR11 on my PDP-11 to write it, 
IIRC, but I might have used XMODEM and a serial port -- its been a lonnnng 
time since I did it.

Jay Jaeger


Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:13:30 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?

In article by Carl Lowenstein:
 > Just from the historical point of view, note that the first major
 > file on a genuine 6th Edition distribution tape _is_ a bootable
 > RK05 image.  Something like 4000 blocks.
 >
 >     carl

Yes, but it doesn't boot on an 11/34 :(
That's the problem.

Cheers,
	Warren
---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com			visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sun Feb  4 16:39:28 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 22:39:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] 2.11BSD networking on simulator
Message-ID: <200102040639.f146dSx18575@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Richard Donkin <rdonkin at bigfoot.com>
> Could you let me know the FreeBSD and Begemot P11 versions you were
> using? (Anyone else who has a working combination, feel free to jump in!)
	
	Gosh, it was quite a while ago that I tried P11 on a FreeBSD system.
	It was pre-4.0 as I remember - perhaps 3.5 or 3.6

> Thanks very much for the config file, that should make life a lot
> easier... And

	Quite welcome!   Getting rid of the M4 macros and distilling the
	config file down to the basics makes it much easier to see what
	is going on.   Coming up with that first config file was a day
	or so of fun ;)

> thanks for all your efforts in updating 2.11BSD - very impressive to get
> a full fledged BSD system on a PDP-11!

	You're welcome - it's been a lot of fun over the years.  The past
	couple years development has slowed down, combination of too many
	other projects and not a lot of room left to stuff new features in ;)

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From cube1 at home.com  Mon Feb  5 08:09:33 2001
From: cube1 at home.com (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 16:09:33 -0600
Subject: [pups] Booting V6 on 11/34 vs 11/34A ??
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010204155043.045c7d50@cirithi>

That RK05 image boots on an 11/34A just fine.   (I own one.  Trust me.  It 
just works.  No fiddling required).

Perhaps you have a plain 11/34, and perhaps there is some difference that 
matters.

But they should both have MMU, but perhaps the MMU in the 34A is different 
than a 34 in some odd way.

Do you have floating point?  Maybe that's the problem.

You could always try mini-unix...  8-)  That should run (it ran on an 11/20).

Jay

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 09:13:30 +1100 (EST)
From: Warren Toomey <pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: [pups] A bootable disk image for a PDP-11/34?

In article by Carl Lowenstein:
  > Just from the historical point of view, note that the first major
  > file on a genuine 6th Edition distribution tape _is_ a bootable
  > RK05 image.  Something like 4000 blocks.
  >
  >     carl

Yes, but it doesn't boot on an 11/34 :(
That's the problem.

Cheers,
	Warren
- ---	
---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at home.com			visit http://members.home.net/thecomputercollection


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From chd at nktelco.net  Mon Feb  5 08:46:00 2001
From: chd at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 17:46:00 -0500
Subject: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73
Message-ID: <3A7DDBA8.3C69A521@nktelco.net>

Greetings,

I have a PDP-11/73 on which I have installed 2.11 BSD from the PUPS
archives. I have a few hardware configurations questions that I hope
someone might be able to help me with.

The memory board that I have was made by Clearpoint Inc. The board
has the markings Q-RAM 44B REV. B and GSB-2. Unfortunately, I have
no documentation for the board. The board originally had 1 MB
installed, and I added another 1 MB of chips. The extra chips were
not recognized though. Does anyone have information on the jumper
settings for this board?

I have two MSCP controllers installed. One is a CMD CQD-220/M SCSI
controller with one drive attached, CSR is the first MSCP controller,
and unit is set to 0. The second is an RQDX3 with an RX50 attached. 
It is set with CSR at the second MSCP controller address. The 
jumpers are set for unit 1. The result is that I have a SCSI drive
at DU0 and the RX50's at DU4 and DU5 during boot.

DU0 is ra0 and DU4 is ra12 in 2.11 BSD. If I change the jumpers on
RQDX3 to unit 2, I boot at DU8, the first RX50, but I can no longer
access the floppies from 2.11 BSD. Looking at the sources, it seems
that the drive number is limited to 0-7, but the controller seems to
want unit number 8. What am I missing? This seems to occur both in
the kernel and in the standalone installation system.

Chuck Dickman
chd at nktelco.net

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Feb  5 09:45:33 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 15:45:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73
Message-ID: <200102042345.f14NjXN00172@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: "Chuck Dickman" <chd at nktelco.net>
> The memory board that I have was made by Clearpoint Inc. The board

	'fraid I can't be of help with the memory board - that's not
	my area of expertise.

> I have two MSCP controllers installed. One is a CMD CQD-220/M SCSI

	Ah, but I can help with getting the dual MSCP controller
	question.

	My 11/73 is similar - it has an Emulex UC08 and the original
	RQDX3 (with an RD54 and a RX03).

> DU0 is ra0 and DU4 is ra12 in 2.11 BSD. If I change the jumpers on
> RQDX3 to unit 2, I boot at DU8, the first RX50, but I can no longer
> access the floppies from 2.11 BSD. Looking at the sources, it seems
> that the drive number is limited to 0-7, but the controller seems to
> want unit number 8. What am I missing? This seems to occur both in
> the kernel and in the standalone installation system.

	Ignore anything you might know about DU numbers ;)

	2.11 numbers the drives 0 thru 7 on _each_ controller.   Thus
	'ra0' thru 'ra7' are on the first controller, 'ra8' thru 'ra15'
	on the second controller and so on.  There is a maximum of 4
	controllers supported (two bits in the minor device number).

	The standalone I/O system uses device names of the form:

		dev(ctlr, unit, part)

	where 'ctlr' is the controller number (0 thru 3), the 'unit' number
	is 0 thru 7 and the 'part' is the partition number (0 thru 7).   So,
	to access the first drive on the second controller from a standalone
	program the name would be:

		ra(1,0,0)

	you probably will be prompted for the CSR since 'boot' and friends
	only know about the first controller's address.

	Once the kernel is loaded you access drives on the 2nd controller
	with device names such as /dev/ra8a, /dev/ra9a, and so on.   

	The "sparse" numbering was chosen (eons and eons ago) to make the
	MSCP disks look more like the traditional disc controllers which
	allowed for 8 drives per controller.

	In my /etc/dtab file I have:

ra      ? 172154 154    5       raintr          # uda50, rqdx1/2/3
ra      ? 172150 0      5       raintr          # 2nd uda50/uc08

	From the console ODT prompt (I've an older MXV11 boot set up) I
	use "172150 du 0" to boot from the SCSI disk attached to the UC08.
	When the system is up the RD54 (which is unit 0 on the other MSCP
	controller) is accessed as 'ra8' (and the RX03 which is unit 1 
	accessed as 'ra9').

	It's pretty simple and regular once one knows what is going on ;)

	Steven Schultz
	sms at to.gd-es.com

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From chd at nktelco.net  Mon Feb  5 11:49:50 2001
From: chd at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:49:50 -0500
Subject: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73]
Message-ID: <3A7E06BE.F5687560@nktelco.net>

"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
>
> Hi -
>
<snip>
What you described here makes sense and was my first impression of
what should happen, but my experience is different.
>
>         In my /etc/dtab file I have:
>
> ra      ? 172154 154    5       raintr          # uda50, rqdx1/2/3
> ra      ? 172150 0      5       raintr          # 2nd uda50/uc08

My /etc/dtab is:

ra      ? 172150 154    5       raintr          # uda50, rqdx1/2/3
ra      ? 160334 160    5       raintr          # secondary mscp

The CQD220 is at 172150 and the RXDX3 is at 160334. Is 172154 a valid
MSCP address? It must be, cause it works for you. The docs I have
show 160334.

On booting the 11/73 and starting 2.11 BSD the following occurs:

DU8 and DU9 at boot are the RX50 drives on the second controller. The
floppy in DU8 contains the installation standalone utilities that were
part of the installation tape, including icheck.

------------
Testing in progress - Please wait
Memory Size is 1024 K Bytes
9 Step memory test
  Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Message 04      Entering Dialog mode

Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: B DU8

Trying DU8

Starting system from DU8

.83Boot from ra(1,0,0) at 0160334
.: ra(1,0,0)/icheck
.ra(1,0,0) err op=89 sts=3
.ra(1,0,0) !online
.: ra(0,0,0)/unix
.Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150
.
2.11 BSD UNIX #10: Fri Nov 24 16:52:18 PST 2000
    root at mars.chd-net:/usr/src/sys/MARS

ra0: Ver 6 mod 13
ra0: RA82  size=1295849
attaching qe0 csr 174440
qe0: DEC DELQA addr 08:00:2b:0e:24:7c
attaching lo0

phys mem  = 1048576
avail mem = 725696
user mem  = 307200

February  1 23:38:41 init: configure system

hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
ra 1 csr 160334 vector 160 vectorset attached
rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ts 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
#
# mount /dev/ra8a /mnt/rx0
ra1: Ver 4 mod 3
ra8 st=3 sb=0 fl=0 en=9
/dev/ra8a on /mnt/rx0: Input/output error
: not found
: not found
# mount /dev/ra9a /mnt/rx0
ra9 st=3 sb=0 fl=0 en=9
/dev/ra9a on /mnt/rx0: Input/output error
#
>
>         It's pretty simple and regular once one knows what is going on ;)
>
I agree that it is pretty simple as you describe it and it is what I
expected,
but it does not seem to be as I see it here. Could the problem be that I
am
booting from the second controller? Should all the controllers be
jumpered for
unit 0? Now that I think about it, it may be the boot firmware that is
uncooperative. If I set the RQDX3 for unit 0, I cannot boot from the
second
controller's first disk, but I can from the second. So, I should set all
the
controller unit numbers to 0. The restriction is that the boot device
must
be visible to the firmware. Make sense?

...

OK, I moved the RQDX3 to unit 0, and the boot floppy to the second
drive.
The boot is then:

--------------
Testing in progress - Please wait
Memory Size is 1024 K Bytes
9 Step memory test
  Step 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Message 04      Entering Dialog mode

Commands are Help, Boot, List, Setup, Map and Test.
Type a command then press the RETURN key: B DU1

Trying DU1

Starting system from DU1

.83Boot from ra(1,1,0) at 0160334
.: ra(0,0,0)/unix
.Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150
.
2.11 BSD UNIX #10: Fri Nov 24 16:52:18 PST 2000
    root at mars.chd-net:/usr/src/sys/MARS

ra0: Ver 6 mod 13
ra0: RA82  size=1295849
attaching qe0 csr 174440
qe0: DEC DELQA addr 08:00:2b:0e:24:7c
attaching lo0

phys mem  = 1048576
avail mem = 725696
user mem  = 307200

February  1 23:38:41 init: configure system

hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
ra 1 csr 160334 vector 160 vectorset attached
rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
ts 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
# mount /dev/ra9a /mnt/rx0
ra1: Ver 4 mod 3
ra9: RX50  size=800
# ls /mnt/rx0
boot        icheck      restor      unix
disklabel   mkfs        rx50toroot
#
>         Steven Schultz
>         sms at to.gd-es.com
Thanks for helping me work through this. It looks like the boot device
must be
within the first 8 devices that the firmware can see, but 2.11 BSD wants
all
the unit number jumpers set to 0.

Chuck Dickman
chd at nktelco.net
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From: Chuck Dickman <chd at nktelco.net>
Subject: Re: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 20:43:06 -0500
Size: 5237
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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon Feb  5 12:35:54 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2001 18:35:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73
Message-ID: <200102050235.f152Zs901247@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: "Chuck Dickman" <chd at nktelco.net>
> What you described here makes sense and was my first impression of
> what should happen, but my experience is different.

	I'm wondering if the console/boot firmware might not be the
	cause of some of the confusion.

> My /etc/dtab is:
> 
> ra      ? 172150 154    5       raintr          # uda50, rqdx1/2/3
> ra      ? 160334 160    5       raintr          # secondary mscp

	Looks good.   With 2.11 you can, if you want, leave the interrupt
	vector as 0, the kernel will allocate an available vector and
	tell the MSCP controller what vector to use.

> The CQD220 is at 172150 and the RXDX3 is at 160334. Is 172154 a valid 
> MSCP address? It must be, cause it works for you. The docs I have 
> show 160334.
	
	As long as it doesn't conflict with anything else on the system it's
	valid ;-)   The system came with the RQDX3 and I worked with the RD54
	for a while before adding the UC08 - when I added the UC08 I just picked
	the next free CSR which happened to be 172154.

> DU8 and DU9 at boot are the RX50 drives on the second controller. The
> floppy in DU8 contains the installation standalone utilities that were
> part of the installation tape, including icheck.
> 
> ------------
> .83Boot from ra(1,0,0) at 0160334
> .: ra(1,0,0)/icheck

	It probably doesn't hurt anything but I would leave off the '/'

> .ra(1,0,0) err op=89 sts=3
> .ra(1,0,0) !online

	op=89 is the "ONLINE" command and a status of 3 means the unit didn't
	go 'online'.   That is very strange since 'boot' was obviously loaded
	from the drive/controller.

	What I am wondering now is:  does the boot monitor pass 0 or 8 thru
	as the unit number?   If it's expecting 8 or 9 then that might be
	the problem because boot and the 2.11 kernel only deal with 0 thru 7

> .: ra(0,0,0)/unix
> .Boot: bootdev=02400 bootcsr=0172150
> .
> hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
> ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped:  No autoconfig routines.
> ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached
> ra 1 csr 160334 vector 160 vectorset attached

	Ok, that looks encouraging.   

> # mount /dev/ra8a /mnt/rx0
> ra1: Ver 4 mod 3
> ra8 st=3 sb=0 fl=0 en=9
> /dev/ra8a on /mnt/rx0: Input/output error
> : not found
> : not found
> # mount /dev/ra9a /mnt/rx0
> ra9 st=3 sb=0 fl=0 en=9
> /dev/ra9a on /mnt/rx0: Input/output error

	Same as before - the "online" command is failing for reason(s)
	unknown as yet.

> I agree that it is pretty simple as you describe it and it is what I expected,
> but it does not seem to be as I see it here. Could the problem be that I am
> booting from the second controller? Should all the controllers be jumpered 

	I boot from the second controller all the time.  If I weren't so
	lazy (and the BA23 so narrow and hard to work in ;)) I'd have swapped
	the UC08 and RQDX3 around a long time ago.   As it is now I have to
	hit ^C during the POST and at the BOOT> prompt I enter "172154 DU 0"
	to boot from the second controller.

> for unit 0? Now that I think about it, it may be the boot firmware that is 

	Yes, if given a choice (and I don't know how this is done) all the
	controllers need to start from 0.   If the "base unit" of a controller
	is 8 then I think the problem is that the controller is expecting
	values such as 8, 9, etc in the 'mscp_unit' part of the MSCP packet.
	That would explain the failure to "online unit 0" - the controller
	is expecting to be told "online unit 8".

> controller's first disk, but I can from the second. So, I should set all the 
> controller unit numbers to 0.  The restriction is that the boot device
> must be visible to the firmware. Make sense?

	Yes.   I think the 'restriction' in this case is 2.11 - it doesn't
	know how to deal with units other than 0 thru 7.

> Thanks for helping me work through this. It looks like the boot device
> must be within the first 8 devices that the firmware can see, but 2.11 BSD 
> wants all the unit number jumpers set to 0.

	Quite welcome!   The boot monitor can load anything, but once 'boot'
	(or the kernel) is loaded they do not know how to deal with unit=8.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com

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From chd at nktelco.net  Mon Feb  5 13:20:27 2001
From: chd at nktelco.net (Chuck Dickman)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 22:20:27 -0500
Subject: [pups] Hardware config for 2.11BSD Installation on PDP-11/73
References: <200102050235.f152Zs901247@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <3A7E1BFB.98767635@nktelco.net>

"Steven M. Schultz" wrote:
> 
> > "Chuck Dickman" wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for helping me work through this. It looks like the boot device
> > must be within the first 8 devices that the firmware can see, but 2.11 BSD
> > wants all the unit number jumpers set to 0.
> 
>         Quite welcome!   The boot monitor can load anything, but once 'boot'
>         (or the kernel) is loaded they do not know how to deal with unit=8.
I think that was what I was trying to say, but you said it better.

Thanks.
> 
>         Steven Schultz
>         sms at moe.2bsd.com

Now if someone could help be double my memory. :-)

Chuck Dickman
chd at nktelco.net

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From pino at dohd.org  Mon Feb  5 22:37:53 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:37:53 +0100
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
Message-ID: <20010205133753.A23455@mud.stack.nl>

Hi.

A friendly user pointed me to this obvious error:

(part of a typescript, an FTP session to my PDP, running 2.11BSD)

ncftp /usr/home/martijnb> ls -la foobar.c
-rw-r--r--  1 martijnb users         106 Jan 15 15:25 foobar.c
ncftp /usr/home/martijnb> quote mdtm foobar.c
191010115144152

(mdtm should return the datestamp, in the form yyyymmddhhmm. ftpd
thinks that it is 19101, and chops off the last digit of the filedate..)

Things go wrong when you try to get an allready existing file:

ncftp /usr/home/martijnb > get foobar.c

The local file "foobar.c" already exists.
	Local:           133 bytes, dated Mon Feb  5 13:25:59 2001.
	Remote:          133 bytes, dated Thu Oct 13 04:44:15 1910.

	[O]verwrite?  [A]ppend to?  [S]kip?  [N]ew Name?  > 

Hmm.

I'll see if I can figure out a quick patch :)

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From dave at fgh.geac.com.au  Mon Feb  5 23:09:49 2001
From: dave at fgh.geac.com.au (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:09:49 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
In-Reply-To: <20010205133753.A23455@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102052354420.5033-100000@fgh.au.geac.com>

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Martijn van Buul wrote:

> ncftp /usr/home/martijnb> quote mdtm foobar.c
> 191010115144152
>
> (mdtm should return the datestamp, in the form yyyymmddhhmm. ftpd
> thinks that it is 19101, and chops off the last digit of the filedate..)

Yep, that's a sure sign, which (cough, cough) I have personally seen on
some (cough, cough) Y2K-compliant software supported by (cough, cough)
A Large Software Company.  No, I wasn't personally responsible for that
code :-)

> I'll see if I can figure out a quick patch :)

Beware of the Y2K.1 bug :-(

Synopsis:

In order to overcome the Y2K bug, we implement a quick fix, because we
are too lazy to do it properly:

IF last two digits == '00' THEN make first two digits == '20'.
// Because we're gonna retire this stuff after 2000.

So what happens in 2001?  Well, you get 1901, 19101, etc.  Sigh...  Isn't
that fix what got us into trouble in the first place?

Disclaimer: None of Geac software exhibited the Y2K.1 bug, since we tested
it thoroughly, for years 2000, 2001, etc: I make no comment on Y2K.

-- 
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493  Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From pino at dohd.org  Mon Feb  5 23:27:46 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:27:46 +0100
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
In-Reply-To: <20010205133753.A23455@mud.stack.nl>; from pino@dohd.org on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 01:37:53PM +0100
References: <20010205133753.A23455@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <20010205142746.A24731@mud.stack.nl>

Martijn van Buul wrote:
> I'll see if I can figure out a quick patch :)

Done.

A diff for /usr/src/libexec/ftpd/ftpcmd.y:

461,463c461,464
< 					    "19%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d",
< 					    t->tm_year, t->tm_mon+1, t->tm_mday,
< 					    t->tm_hour, t->tm_min, t->tm_sec);
---
> 					    "%04d%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d",
> 					    t->tm_year+1900, t->tm_mon+1, 
> 					    t->tm_mday, t->tm_hour, t->tm_min, 
> 					    t->tm_sec);

Miraculously, this *reduces* the size of the binary by a whopping two 
bytes ;)

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Feb  5 23:50:37 2001
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:50:37 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
In-Reply-To: <20010205142746.A24731@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.32.0102060048000.5033-100000@fgh.au.geac.com>

On Mon, 5 Feb 2001, Martijn van Buul wrote:

> < 					    "19%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d%02d",
> < 					    t->tm_year, t->tm_mon+1, t->tm_mday,

Dead giveaway...

> Miraculously, this *reduces* the size of the binary by a whopping two
> bytes ;)

Well, we can find a job for you in writing PDP-11 bootstraps :-)

-- 
Dave Horsfall CL VK2KFU  dave at geac.com.au  Ph: +61 2 9978-7493  Fx: * 9978-7490
Geac Computers P/L (ERP Division) 2/57 Christie St, St Leonards 2065, Australia


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From robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk  Tue Feb  6 01:46:48 2001
From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk (robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 15:46:48 +0000
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
Message-ID: <002569EA.00579852.00@postoffice.co.uk>



Dear All,
IIRC the start of this thread stated that this was on a 2.11 system.  If this
was so has anyone submitted the patch to Steve Schultz for consideration as a
formal update?

Appologies if this has already been done.

Rgds

Robin



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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Feb  6 02:51:34 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:51:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Y2K problem in ftpd?
Message-ID: <200102051651.f15GpYd11283@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

> From: robin.birch at postoffice.co.uk
> IIRC the start of this thread stated that this was on a 2.11 system.  If this
> was so has anyone submitted the patch to Steve Schultz for consideration as a
> formal update?

	Don't worry - I saw the thread.   Consider the patch submitted :)

	I did find it fascinating that the bug slipped thru since at one time
	a (obviously not detailed enough) scan of the system for 'tm_year'
	references was done.

	Thanks!

	Steven Schultz
	sms at moe.2bsd.com


From pino at dohd.org  Tue Feb  6 07:24:46 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:24:46 +0100
Subject: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+
Message-ID: <20010205222446.A3608@mud.stack.nl>

After 52 days, my uPDP 11/53+ has suddenly been acting rather strange.
/usr/include got 'replaced' by /usr/new, to be precise. At the time,
I was the only user. Seeing this, I immediately halted the system,
expecting a load of file system errors upon boot. None showed up, and
/usr/include is back to itself again. However, programs which *used*
to be running perfectly (like my work-in-progress ps) suddenly fail,
with a "not enough memory for saving info".

Any hints?

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Tue Feb  6 10:35:17 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:35:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+
Message-ID: <200102060035.f160ZHg18114@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Martijn van Buul <pino at dohd.org>
> After 52 days, my uPDP 11/53+ has suddenly been acting rather strange.
> /usr/include got 'replaced' by /usr/new, to be precise. At the time,

	Oops!   

> I was the only user. Seeing this, I immediately halted the system,
> expecting a load of file system errors upon boot. None showed up, and
> /usr/include is back to itself again. However, programs which *used*
> to be running perfectly (like my work-in-progress ps) suddenly fail,
> with a "not enough memory for saving info".

> Any hints?

	How much memory is on the system now after the reboot.   The only
	thing that pops into mind is that the system is running without
	enough memory.    If part of the memory on the system dropped out
	earlier that would (possibly) explain the strange behaviour was
	seen.   Rebooting/reseting the system would cause the system to
	recount memory.

	A program can get 'ENOMEM' as an error two ways: 1) exceeding the
	maximum 64KB dataspace (stack + data) or 2) the system has run out
	of swap or the maps ('coremap' and/or 'swapmap') have become too
	fragmented.

	Two commands that can be useful in obtaining more information are

		sysctl hw

	and 

		pstat -s

	"sysctl hw" will give several lines of output - the two you'd be
	interested in are 

	hw.physmem = 2097152
	hw.usermem = 415744

	'physmem' is the amount of memory physically present and 'usermem' is
	the amount current free and available for user programs.

	"pstat -s" will give a swap space usage summary.

	Steven Schultz
	sms at Moe.2bsd.com

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From pino at dohd.org  Tue Feb  6 17:39:28 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:39:28 +0100
Subject: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+
In-Reply-To: <200102060035.f160ZHg18114@moe.2bsd.com>; from sms@moe.2bsd.com on Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 04:35:17PM -0800
References: <200102060035.f160ZHg18114@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <20010206083928.A15141@mud.stack.nl>

Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Hi -
> 
> > From: Martijn van Buul <pino at dohd.org>
> > After 52 days, my uPDP 11/53+ has suddenly been acting rather strange.
> > /usr/include got 'replaced' by /usr/new, to be precise. At the time,
> 
> 	Oops!   


Well, strange things are afoot indeed. About the same time, 1 machine
crashed (A DEC Alpha running OpenBSD), 2 started acting very strangely,
and had to be rebooted (My PDP, and a Wintel box running Windows 2000),
and a 4th machine (A Wintel box running Minix-VMD) suddenly had some
problems reading his harddisk and using its network (but recovered). The
strange thing is that these machines aren't related in any way but one:
they're standing quite near to eachother. Do I hear EMC somewhere?

 
> > Any hints?
> 
> 	How much memory is on the system now after the reboot.

1.5 MB. 798 Kilowords. 

>       The only thing that pops into mind is that the system is running
>       without enough memory.    If part of the memory on the system dropped
>       out earlier that would (possibly) explain the strange behaviour was
> 	seen.   Rebooting/reseting the system would cause the system to
> 	recount memory.

Well, the machine had 1.5 MB before it crashed.. It's doubtlessly some
memory fault, but it *seems* to be a temporal one.

> 
> 	"sysctl hw" will give several lines of output - the two you'd be
> 	interested in are 
> 
> 	hw.physmem = 2097152

hw.physmem = 1572864

> 	hw.usermem = 415744

hw.usermem = 313472

> 	'physmem' is the amount of memory physically present and 'usermem' is
> 	the amount current free and available for user programs.

Should be enough. 'cc' works without problems - only my ps with debug
info seems to be affected; it might not be a memory issue, but a "ps can't
determine the right amount of processes"-issue.. 

I've checked it, and this seems to be the case. Ps thinks that there are
0 processes running, and does a 
 outargs = (struct psout *)calloc(nproc, sizeof(struct psout));
on that. With 'nproc' being 0, this returns a NULL pointer, but doesn't
mean that the process is out of memory.

Having no ps is very annoying; finding back those 4 children spawned
by a httpd can be a nuisance then. pstat -p works, but it isn't comfortable:)

> 	"pstat -s" will give a swap space usage summary.

15/59 swapmap entries
910 kbytes swap used, 6263 kbytes free

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Wed Feb  7 02:36:03 2001
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:36:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [pups] Strange problems on an uPDP 11/53+
Message-ID: <200102061636.f16Ga3301595@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi --

> Well, strange things are afoot indeed. About the same time, 1 machine...
> they're standing quite near to eachother. Do I hear EMC somewhere?

	Time to increase the shielding around the computer room, eh? ;-)

> Well, the machine had 1.5 MB before it crashed.. It's doubtlessly some
> memory fault, but it *seems* to be a temporal one.

	I do not think it is a memory/hardware problem - that was just a
	guess (not a very good one at that ;)).

> hw.usermem = 313472

	That's fine.

> Should be enough. 'cc' works without problems - only my ps with debug

	What about the standard 'ps' that came with the system?

> info seems to be affected; it might not be a memory issue, but a "ps can't
> determine the right amount of processes"-issue.. 
> I've checked it, and this seems to be the case. Ps thinks that there are
> 0 processes running, and does a 
>  outargs = (struct psout *)calloc(nproc, sizeof(struct psout));

	Ah, ok - malloc() used to actually return a non-NULL pointer when
	presented with a size request of 0.  That was an error and was changed
	(I forget the exact update/patch number).  There were a couple programs
	in the system that relied on the old behaviour and those had to be
	fixed.

> on that. With 'nproc' being 0, this returns a NULL pointer, but doesn't
> mean that the process is out of memory.

	Right, the ENOMEM error was overloaded by malloc().  An argument
	can be made that EINVAL should have been returned instead by malloc()
	if 0 was passed in.

> Having no ps is very annoying; finding back those 4 children spawned
> by a httpd can be a nuisance then. pstat -p works, but it isn't comfortable:)

	Are you are using the traditional 'nlist()' method of reading
	the kernel symbol table to look for 'nproc' and '_proc'?  If so
	is there a permissions problem?  /dev/*mem needs to be group=kmem, mode
	640, the /unix image should be mode 644 and the 'ps' program setgid
	to kmem.   If there is a problem reading the kernel symbol table
	then 'nproc' will remain 0 which is what you're seeing.

	Another way of examining some kernel variables (proc table, file table,
	etc) is with the "sysctl" call.  It's much faster since it doesn't
	have to do a sequential scan of the /unix symbol table.   You can
	look in /usr/src/ucb/w.c at the function 'readpr()' to see how to
	examine the proc table using sysctl.  

	Steve


From pino at dohd.org  Thu Feb  8 06:22:52 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:22:52 +0100
Subject: [pups] /bin/ps (and /var/run/psdatabase) corrupt in installation set?
Message-ID: <20010207212252.B28455@mud.stack.nl>

Oy.

I kind of solved my problems with ps, just by recompiling the 
source.. I think I've got reasons to believe that /bin/ps as distributed
in the installation set on minnie is corrupt; it only dumps core.

As a side note, /var/run/psdatabase is corrupt too; normally this wouldn't
matter (since ps -U recompiles this, and since ps -U is run in /etc/rc),
but since ps dumps core...

Anyway; If I would've known about /var/run/psdatabase, it might have 
prevented me from searching a non-existant bug during the last few months :)

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.


From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au  Thu Feb 15 11:33:32 2001
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:33:32 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [pups] Checksums in the UNIX Archive
Message-ID: <200102150133.f1F1XWX40569@henry.cs.adfa.edu.au>

----- Forwarded message from Fred N. van Kempen -----

Warren,
False alert... Ultrix-11 V3.1 source tape file is NOT corrupted.  My WinZIP
was - I use NT at work, download stuff, and take it home with me, to load onto
the Unix machines. The Unix boxes have no problem with the files...

----- End of forwarded message from Fred N. van Kempen -----

Hi all, I'm back from holidays. With regards to corrupt files in the
UNIX Archive, yes it looks like I have had a few hit. I'll check through
my old backups for a clean version of Ken Wellsch's 6th Edition disk image.

There is a checksums file in the archive: /checksums, with MD5 checksums
for all files. If you do suspect a file is damaged, please check to see
if the MD5 checksum matches that in the /checksums file.

Also, has anybody tried out the VTserver 2.0 alpha program?! I'm going to
be flat out here at work for a month or two, but I will try to add support
for things other than plain copying of disk images.

Cheers,
	Warren


From Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl  Thu Feb 15 13:01:45 2001
From: Fred.van.Kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:01:45 +0100
Subject: [pups] RE: Unix Archive mirror site offer
Message-ID: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32C31@MWNT4>

Warren,

Good news so far.  I did some work on VTserver 2.0, and added the uODT code
so it
uploads the PDP-11 boot code to the machine and gets it going.  That works
fine..
"copy" gets loaded, and I can transfer stuff from and to the machine's RX50
and 
RD51 units.

My biggest worry next, of course, is using an emulator to emulate my machine
(which
is a MicroPDP-11/23, by the way) and its disks, and build a working set of
file 
systems.  Those I can then transfer to the raw disk.

When playing, I noticed that the RD51 is a plain Seagate ST412 MFM drive...
did anyone
try to use other MFM disks with the RQDX series controllers?  I can probably
get some
very cheap ST251 40MB drives.. ;)

--fred


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Warren Toomey [mailto:wkt at henry.cs.adfa.edu.au]
> Sent: dinsdag 13 februari 2001 2:22
> To: Fred N. van Kempen
> Subject: Re: Unix Archive mirror site offer
> 
> 
> In article by Fred N. van Kempen:
> > Here's a promise... if I can get my MicroVAX 3400 back up 
> (on Ultrix 4.4),
> > I'll run the archive on that box... (pups.microwalt.net or
> > tuhs.microwalt.net)
> > so all the old stuff is hosted on old stuff... otherwise 
> it's going to be a
> > Sun SPARCstation Classic- also an old box, but not quite as old :)
> 
> Excellent. I believe Caldera have bought the rights to UNIX 
> from SCO, and
> I"ve heard rumours that they might drop the ``click on the 
> license'' thing,
> so if that happens we can make the archive available with no 
> passwords.
>  
> > Also: I am working with Bill Grunshannon and Steven Schultz 
> on getting my
> > own
> > MicroPDP-11/23 back up... we need to include your VTserver 
> stuff into the
> > Ultrix-11 source tree, recompile parts, move into binary 
> tree, and create a
> > new tape which I can then load.  Bill has a working 11/73 
> with Ultrix-11 on
> > it,
> > and also has an 11/93 with same.
> > 
> 
> My new VTserver can load in and write entire disk images now, 
> so it should
> be usable to install an Ultrix disk image.
> 
> http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Vtserver.
> 
> I'll be back at work tomorrow or the nxet day.
> 
> Cheers,
> 	Warren
> 


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Received: (from major at localhost)
	by minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA58787
	for pups-liszt; Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:14:03 +1100 (EST)
	(envelope-from owner-pups at minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au)

From pino at dohd.org  Fri Feb 16 18:11:02 2001
From: pino at dohd.org (Martijn van Buul)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:11:02 +0100
Subject: [pups] RE: Unix Archive mirror site offer
In-Reply-To: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32C31@MWNT4>; from Fred.van.Kempen@microwalt.nl on Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 04:01:45AM +0100
References: <6F63E31101C6D41196490008C7B2BFC32C31@MWNT4>
Message-ID: <20010216091102.A26535@mud.stack.nl>

Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
 
> When playing, I noticed that the RD51 is a plain Seagate ST412 MFM drive...
> did anyone try to use other MFM disks with the RQDX series controllers?  I
> can probably get some very cheap ST251 40MB drives.. ;)

I've done exactly the same thing (but it only was an ST225, AKA RD31) on
an RQDX3 controller. You need the XXDP 2.5 diagnostic kit for that. Having
a couple of 5.25" HD diskdrives really helps. Some of these drives (the
older, the better ;) can be used as RX33 drive, which greatly reduces the
problem of creating a XXDP bootdisk with the needed utilities, since you
can write these disks in a (second :) 5.25" drive on a standard PC. 

Finding a supply of 1.2 MB 5.25" disks can be a bigger problem - I'm 
very happy with my newly found pack of *fresh* disks.

I may still have such a diskimage floating around somewhere (Yup, I seem
to have). The basic idea is to low-level format the MFM drive, and make it
look like a genuine DEC drive. This is a lot easier if the drives you
want to use were also sold as DEC drives (which is the case with the
ST251 - it's also known as the RD32). If not, you'll have to provide
a lot more information about the drive - never really tried that. 

This said, I sucessfully low-levelled a 21MB Miniscribe (with the same
CHS-layout as a ST225) using the RD31 parameters.

-- 
    Martijn van Buul -  Pino at dohd.org - http://www.stack.nl/~martijnb/
	 Geek code: G--  - Visit OuterSpace: mud.stack.nl 3333
   Kees J. Bot: The sum of CPU power and user brain power is a constant.

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From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Feb 16 19:15:20 2001
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:15:20 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] RE: Unix Archive mirror site offer
In-Reply-To: <20010216091102.A26535@mud.stack.nl>
Message-ID: <200102160915.KAA11956@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On 16 Feb, Martijn van Buul wrote:

[third party disks on RQDX}
> I've done exactly the same thing (but it only was an ST225, AKA RD31) on
> an RQDX3 controller. You need the XXDP 2.5 diagnostic kit for that.
Could this be placed in the archive? It would be nice to have this
public available.

> Having a couple of 5.25" HD diskdrives really helps. Some of these 
> drives (the older, the better ;) can be used as RX33 drive
I connected a generic Mitzumi 5.25" FDD to the RQDX3 in my MicroVAX III
and it just worked. Even booting from it was no problem.
-- 



tschüß,
         Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


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