From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Feb  1 00:42:43 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 09:42:43 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Archeology: AberMUD, BCPL, ec.
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9Jajw48onyW-_RNV9EU9y0N=Nxj-M60MBo2=S28Bd8-uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFH29tqW+4Z-V9uWp99+Phs-GaaYRyX3mOcsbq1R-Hi+wAZcdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9Jajw48onyW-_RNV9EU9y0N=Nxj-M60MBo2=S28Bd8-uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NVurm91cv_3KCQPdMdBHSP1yr7LRxiGWQmTjg9K2umtA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure if the old DEC CRL tech reports are still around.   At one
time before the Compaq-tion, some folks at CRL and the folks at Boston
Public Library and WGBH were working with video and trying to extract all
sorts of text from it.   I do not remember how successful they were, but
there might be some hints in their tech reports.  I'll ask around and see
if I can turn anything up.  Part of the problem I have is I that don't
remember who was doing that work, but some of my friends might.

Clem
ᐧ

On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 2:16 AM Alec Muffett <alec.muffett at gmail.com> wrote:

> Has anyone ever attempted to OCR a video, perhaps by breaking into frames
> and then aggregating the results, using multiple frames to correct each
> other?
>
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2019, 19:51 Richard Salz <rich.salz at gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Some folks are trying to figure out how to get AberMud source online and
>> working; see https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1056823314272960512
>>
>> Sample code at
>> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/larsbrinkhoff/abermud/master/abermud1/text/timelock.b
>>
>>
>>
>>
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From stewart at serissa.com  Fri Feb  1 05:34:57 2019
From: stewart at serissa.com (Lawrence Stewart)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 14:34:57 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Archeology: AberMUD, BCPL, ec.
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NVurm91cv_3KCQPdMdBHSP1yr7LRxiGWQmTjg9K2umtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFH29tqW+4Z-V9uWp99+Phs-GaaYRyX3mOcsbq1R-Hi+wAZcdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9Jajw48onyW-_RNV9EU9y0N=Nxj-M60MBo2=S28Bd8-uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2NVurm91cv_3KCQPdMdBHSP1yr7LRxiGWQmTjg9K2umtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C327ED7-E712-475A-8F7D-EDEBCD529255@serissa.com>

I was at CRL from 1989 to 1994.  I sent an inquiry to our informal mailing list.

We had written an audio server along the lines of the X server (http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/CRL-93-8.pdf) and Tom Levergood wrote an application called Store24 to keep a rolling 24 history of WBUR (local NPR station).  We thought about using speech recognition to build a searchable index for it.

The next idea was to do the same thing for Video, perhaps using the closed captioning feed to develop the index.  Dave Wecker (now at Microsoft Research) reports working on extracting data from NPR news streams and it would find the appropriate audio or video clip.  He’s not sure he published that.

Jim Gettys cites http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/CRL-99-2.pdf (Indexing Multimedia for the Internet) and notes that all the DEC techreports are hidden away at http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/ <http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/>. Choose “Browse by year” and select Compaq/DEC

-Larry

> On 2019, Jan 31, at 9:42 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure if the old DEC CRL tech reports are still around.   At one time before the Compaq-tion, some folks at CRL and the folks at Boston Public Library and WGBH were working with video and trying to extract all sorts of text from it.   I do not remember how successful they were, but there might be some hints in their tech reports.  I'll ask around and see if I can turn anything up.  Part of the problem I have is I that don't remember who was doing that work, but some of my friends might.
> 
> Clem
> ᐧ
> 
> On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 2:16 AM Alec Muffett <alec.muffett at gmail.com <mailto:alec.muffett at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Has anyone ever attempted to OCR a video, perhaps by breaking into frames and then aggregating the results, using multiple frames to correct each other?
> 
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2019, 19:51 Richard Salz <rich.salz at gmail.com <mailto:rich.salz at gmail.com> wrote:
> Some folks are trying to figure out how to get AberMud source online and working; see https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1056823314272960512 <https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1056823314272960512>
> 
> Sample code at https://raw.githubusercontent.com/larsbrinkhoff/abermud/master/abermud1/text/timelock.b <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/larsbrinkhoff/abermud/master/abermud1/text/timelock.b>
> 
> 
> 

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From stewart at serissa.com  Fri Feb  1 05:45:10 2019
From: stewart at serissa.com (Lawrence Stewart)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 14:45:10 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Archeology: AberMUD, BCPL, ec.
In-Reply-To: <7C327ED7-E712-475A-8F7D-EDEBCD529255@serissa.com>
References: <CAFH29tqW+4Z-V9uWp99+Phs-GaaYRyX3mOcsbq1R-Hi+wAZcdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9Jajw48onyW-_RNV9EU9y0N=Nxj-M60MBo2=S28Bd8-uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2NVurm91cv_3KCQPdMdBHSP1yr7LRxiGWQmTjg9K2umtA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7C327ED7-E712-475A-8F7D-EDEBCD529255@serissa.com>
Message-ID: <AE5F90B7-8D06-46DA-9BE1-F69B8AF498A6@serissa.com>

A followup from TV Raman, now at Google:

> We also did an intern project -- Tom's intern who became my intern after
> Tom left (Arjen De Vries) where we did:
> 
> 1. Converted the caption stream into an sgml document indexed by time --
> so the caption stream came down in dribs and drabs of the form "turn
> background yellow, foreground white, place this text"... that turned
> into the  SGML document, with each element tagged with time.
> 
> 2. We then indexed that collection of SGML documents --   the content
> stream was Tom's ring-buffer of  the CNN live feed (6 hours was what we
> stored from memory)
> 3. We then built a simple-minded search engine over the SGML documents,
> used the CRL reco engine for getting user queries -- you could also just
> type the query at a search box; did the search over the
> caption-doc-index, found the time-stamp and played the video.
> 
> Arjen may have published some of this as his final year Masters project
> out of the University Of Twente -- likely summer 1995.
> -- 
> Id: kg:/m/0285kf1

I searched for Arjen De Vries and found

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/fb10/b792fb209e0d347cd14430fbb446c1b178f3.pdf
“Radio and Television Information Filtering through Speech Recognition”
which in turn cites his Master’s thesis from 1995.



> On 2019, Jan 31, at 2:34 PM, Lawrence Stewart <stewart at serissa.com> wrote:
> 
> I was at CRL from 1989 to 1994.  I sent an inquiry to our informal mailing list.
> 
> We had written an audio server along the lines of the X server (http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/CRL-93-8.pdf <http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/CRL-93-8.pdf>) and Tom Levergood wrote an application called Store24 to keep a rolling 24 history of WBUR (local NPR station).  We thought about using speech recognition to build a searchable index for it.
> 
> The next idea was to do the same thing for Video, perhaps using the closed captioning feed to develop the index.  Dave Wecker (now at Microsoft Research) reports working on extracting data from NPR news streams and it would find the appropriate audio or video clip.  He’s not sure he published that.
> 
> Jim Gettys cites http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/CRL-99-2.pdf <http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/Compaq-DEC/CRL-99-2.pdf> (Indexing Multimedia for the Internet) and notes that all the DEC techreports are hidden away at http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/ <http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/>. Choose “Browse by year” and select Compaq/DEC
> 
> -Larry
> 
>> On 2019, Jan 31, at 9:42 AM, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com <mailto:clemc at ccc.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I'm not sure if the old DEC CRL tech reports are still around.   At one time before the Compaq-tion, some folks at CRL and the folks at Boston Public Library and WGBH were working with video and trying to extract all sorts of text from it.   I do not remember how successful they were, but there might be some hints in their tech reports.  I'll ask around and see if I can turn anything up.  Part of the problem I have is I that don't remember who was doing that work, but some of my friends might.
>> 
>> Clem
>> ᐧ
>> 
>> On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 2:16 AM Alec Muffett <alec.muffett at gmail.com <mailto:alec.muffett at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Has anyone ever attempted to OCR a video, perhaps by breaking into frames and then aggregating the results, using multiple frames to correct each other?
>> 
>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2019, 19:51 Richard Salz <rich.salz at gmail.com <mailto:rich.salz at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Some folks are trying to figure out how to get AberMud source online and working; see https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1056823314272960512 <https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1056823314272960512>
>> 
>> Sample code at https://raw.githubusercontent.com/larsbrinkhoff/abermud/master/abermud1/text/timelock.b <https://raw.githubusercontent.com/larsbrinkhoff/abermud/master/abermud1/text/timelock.b>
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Fri Feb  1 14:47:09 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2019 23:47:09 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Archeology: AberMUD, BCPL, ec.
Message-ID: <201902010447.x114l9kX046939@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>


> I have tried to OCR program listings before, with rather
> poor results.

I OCR'd a sizable manuscript written on a pretty shabby portable typewriter.

I scanned each page twice, making sure to move the paper between scans.
Then I ran both diff (by words, not lines) and spell to smoke out trouble.
The word list for a program listing is quite short and easy to generate.
(Print a list of all the apparent words and visually eliminate the nonsense.)
And a spell check is an easy pipeline of standard utilities.

doug

From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Fri Feb  1 15:08:06 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 05:08:06 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Archeology: AberMUD, BCPL, ec.
In-Reply-To: <CAFWeb9Jajw48onyW-_RNV9EU9y0N=Nxj-M60MBo2=S28Bd8-uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFH29tqW+4Z-V9uWp99+Phs-GaaYRyX3mOcsbq1R-Hi+wAZcdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9Jajw48onyW-_RNV9EU9y0N=Nxj-M60MBo2=S28Bd8-uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.cee702b6-5b99-4260-986b-68db9a5e58eb@mail.outlook.com>

Ffmpeg can extract images from a video file.  I used imagemagik to do a CGA palettized version of a video and ffmpeg to stitch it all back together. 




I can get the flags.. 




Get Outlook for Android







On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 3:16 PM +0800, "Alec Muffett" <alec.muffett at gmail.com> wrote:










Has anyone ever attempted to OCR a video, perhaps by breaking into frames and then aggregating the results, using multiple frames to correct each other?

On Wed, 30 Jan 2019, 19:51 Richard Salz <rich.salz at gmail.com wrote:
Some folks are trying to figure out how to get AberMud source online and working; see https://twitter.com/larsbrinkhoff/status/1056823314272960512
Sample code at https://raw.githubusercontent.com/larsbrinkhoff/abermud/master/abermud1/text/timelock.b









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From usotsuki at buric.co  Fri Feb  1 18:09:08 2019
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 03:09:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Archeology: AberMUD, BCPL, ec.
In-Reply-To: <ADFDF14544A65F35.cee702b6-5b99-4260-986b-68db9a5e58eb@mail.outlook.com>
References: <CAFH29tqW+4Z-V9uWp99+Phs-GaaYRyX3mOcsbq1R-Hi+wAZcdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFWeb9Jajw48onyW-_RNV9EU9y0N=Nxj-M60MBo2=S28Bd8-uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.cee702b6-5b99-4260-986b-68db9a5e58eb@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902010307120.15787@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Fri, 1 Feb 2019, Jason Stevens wrote:

> Ffmpeg can extract images from a video file.  I used imagemagik to do a CGA palettized version of a video and ffmpeg to stitch it all back together.
>
> I can get the flags..

I can't remember it all, but I want to say you start with "ffmpeg -i 
filename.mp4 flnm%04d.png"

I usually use Avisynth on Windows together with ffmpeg to do the opposite, 
because it has ImageSource(), but I suppose ffmpeg can do it by itself 
too.

-uso.

From cym224 at gmail.com  Sat Feb  2 00:41:46 2019
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 09:41:46 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Archeology: AberMUD, BCPL, ec.
In-Reply-To: <201902010447.x114l9kX046939@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201902010447.x114l9kX046939@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzzncAMPftxaQ_uXLWFpVL-LaNKa8WHY0ROvqaifbc_+RA@mail.gmail.com>

On 31/01/2019, Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> I OCR'd a sizable manuscript written on a pretty shabby portable
> typewriter.
>
> I scanned each page twice, making sure to move the paper between scans.
> Then I ran both diff (by words, not lines) and spell to smoke out trouble.
> The word list for a program listing is quite short and easy to generate.
> (Print a list of all the apparent words and visually eliminate the
> nonsense.)
> And a spell check is an easy pipeline of standard utilities.
>
> doug

Very nice!  (I shall remember this technique.)

N.

From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Feb  2 03:10:27 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 09:10:27 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Wanted: AT&T System V Release 3.2.{1,2,3} Source Code
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtACY=LH_WpRc7Hp4=ZaRT8v51jFVxvc12r1Bw67Bvg-kg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <87lg3iey47.fsf@loomcom.com>
 <CAK7dMtDu16dRGTp_8Q79t3gA9=ATb-NHzREZHY70pwaMsT93AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87va2kdwc4.fsf@loomcom.com>
 <CAK7dMtACY=LH_WpRc7Hp4=ZaRT8v51jFVxvc12r1Bw67Bvg-kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <89b0ff51-70c9-1141-2174-bc1141ca08f8@bitsavers.org>

I turned up some 3B2 3.2 binary floppies in the CHM collection.
Will see if I can get those archived.

I also just brought up V/386 3.2.3 on a 6386 WGS and am trying to find the C development floppies.


On 1/20/19 1:01 AM, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> As far as I could find, the binary distribution is not readily available (and maybe /was/ not readily available, this
> seemed to be late enough to just be a code dump for source licensees).
> 
> It would be fun to try and build this into a useable release, but I have not yet determined if everything is there as
> well as if a 3.2 system can hoist the build.
> 
> On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 5:15 PM Seth J. Morabito <web at loomcom.com <mailto:web at loomcom.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
>     Kevin Bowling writes:
> 
>     > I believe there is a sysvr4 source dump floating around with the 3b2
>     > base
> 
>     It turns out, you're quite right!
> 
>     I originally had an SVR4 dump from who knows where that did not contain
>     the /usr/src/uts/3b2 directory, but I recently was the benefactor of
>     *another* dump. This time, it looks like the real deal. /usr/src/uts/3b2
>     is there in all its glory.
> 
>     This is probably all I need to get going.
> 
>     All the best,
> 
>     -Seth
>     --
>       Seth Morabito
>       Poulsbo, WA, USA
>       web at loomcom.com <mailto:web at loomcom.com>
> 


From finnoleary at inventati.org  Sun Feb  3 00:34:52 2019
From: finnoleary at inventati.org (Finn O'Leary)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2019 14:34:52 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] DEC and Dave Cutler (was Re: The John Snow's of the UNIX
 family)
In-Reply-To: <20190116182426.GQ7733@mcvoy.com>
References: <CABH=_VQ+pgdSTykpPN8WzViMvkektq6aZaNTr-HkC4fG=Cty=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190116172950.GL7733@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2Ny5PQ2Pt8i2=eVvD_FdKGHnttAt+vTRv2AEnrhYcODCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190116182426.GQ7733@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <8f974f05120b34b6af1ce954e5292a2e@inventati.org>

On 2019-01-16 6:24 pm, Larry McVoy wrote:
> Yeah, HPUX/IRIX/AIX/Solaris/etc are all dead so far as I know, but
> the basic Unix model lives on in Linux.  I wish one of the decent Unix
> variants was still vibrant just so Linux doesn't get complacent.

I have to ask -- which of the old Unix variants do you consider decent, 
and why? :)

-- fao
PGP fingerprint: 739B 6C5C 3DE1 33FA
"Too enough is always not much!"

From dave at horsfall.org  Sun Feb  3 07:22:20 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 08:22:20 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] DEC and Dave Cutler (was Re: The John Snow's of the UNIX
 family)
In-Reply-To: <8f974f05120b34b6af1ce954e5292a2e@inventati.org>
References: <CABH=_VQ+pgdSTykpPN8WzViMvkektq6aZaNTr-HkC4fG=Cty=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190116172950.GL7733@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2Ny5PQ2Pt8i2=eVvD_FdKGHnttAt+vTRv2AEnrhYcODCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190116182426.GQ7733@mcvoy.com>
 <8f974f05120b34b6af1ce954e5292a2e@inventati.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902030820310.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sat, 2 Feb 2019, Finn O'Leary wrote:

> I have to ask -- which of the old Unix variants do you consider decent, 
> and why? :)

I quite liked BSD/OS (aka BSDi), until WinDriver bought them out and shut 
them down; most users then flocked towards FreeBSD, which I still use to 
this day.

-- Dave

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun Feb  3 11:35:36 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 18:35:36 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Posters
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>

I found 3 tubes of posters I'd been hoarding since college (well, since my
first job after college).

There's the usual 18-year-old-boy stuff (Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, etc),
but mixed in are a bunch  of OSI/ISO network stack posters (thank goodness
that didn't become standard, woof!), a couple movie posters, an 10th
Anniversary poster for RT-11.

The ones that will interest this group, maybe, are the Unix Feuds poster
with the wizard among the waring armies, A 20th Anniversary of Unix poster
by Tenon Intersystems which has a nice picture of Unix through 1990 or so
(with Tenon's Mach^ten 1.0 for Macintosh derived from BSD 4.3 and Mach) on
it. It's in decent share, but not in collector ready shape.

Oh, and I have a Eunice poster that mixes the best of VMS and BSD 4.1 into
a seamless environment.

Is there any interest from this group in photos of any of these?

Warner
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From ggm at algebras.org  Sun Feb  3 11:46:46 2019
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 11:46:46 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Posters
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn2jVoPB90HaGeWq0t-R4Ub2iF64M_7MQdMfJojaPGB7TQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yes. even the Led Zep trash. Reddit will swallow this stuff if nobody
else does. Does it have Jimmy Page and his awful three-headed-guitar
and the violin bow?

-G

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 11:36 AM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> I found 3 tubes of posters I'd been hoarding since college (well, since my first job after college).
>
> There's the usual 18-year-old-boy stuff (Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, etc), but mixed in are a bunch  of OSI/ISO network stack posters (thank goodness that didn't become standard, woof!), a couple movie posters, an 10th Anniversary poster for RT-11.
>
> The ones that will interest this group, maybe, are the Unix Feuds poster with the wizard among the waring armies, A 20th Anniversary of Unix poster by Tenon Intersystems which has a nice picture of Unix through 1990 or so (with Tenon's Mach^ten 1.0 for Macintosh derived from BSD 4.3 and Mach) on it. It's in decent share, but not in collector ready shape.
>
> Oh, and I have a Eunice poster that mixes the best of VMS and BSD 4.1 into a seamless environment.
>
> Is there any interest from this group in photos of any of these?
>
> Warner
>

From dave at horsfall.org  Sun Feb  3 12:02:49 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 13:02:49 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Posters
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031300460.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sat, 2 Feb 2019, Warner Losh wrote:

> I found 3 tubes of posters I'd been hoarding since college (well, since 
> my first job after college). There's the usual 18-year-old-boy stuff 
> (Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, etc), but mixed in are a bunch  of OSI/ISO 
> network stack posters (thank goodness that didn't become standard, 
> woof!), a couple movie posters, an 10th Anniversary poster for RT-11.

Pink Floyd and Led Zeppelin etc certainly :-)

-- Dave. the hippie pensioner

From jon at fourwinds.com  Sun Feb  3 12:04:31 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Sat, 02 Feb 2019 18:04:31 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Posters
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031300460.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031300460.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <201902030204.x1324VWN025377@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

You might want to check with the Internet Archive
to see if they'd be interested in scanning them.

Jon

From dave at horsfall.org  Sun Feb  3 12:07:03 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 13:07:03 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Posters
In-Reply-To: <CAKr6gn2jVoPB90HaGeWq0t-R4Ub2iF64M_7MQdMfJojaPGB7TQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jVoPB90HaGeWq0t-R4Ub2iF64M_7MQdMfJojaPGB7TQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031303260.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, George Michaelson wrote:

> Yes. even the Led Zep trash. Reddit will swallow this stuff if nobody 
> else does. Does it have Jimmy Page and his awful three-headed-guitar and 
> the violin bow?

Getting OT, but I thought he played a twin-head, not a three-headed axe?

-- Dave

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Sun Feb  3 12:27:05 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 19:27:05 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Posters
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5df9fcac-f035-20e8-afc9-095aae42ba5e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 2/2/19 6:35 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> Is there any interest from this group in photos of any of these?

I would be interested in pictures of the computer related pictures to 
see if I'd be interested enough to pay for and / or for shipping on any 
of them.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From usotsuki at buric.co  Sun Feb  3 13:23:01 2019
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2019 22:23:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Posters
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031303260.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jVoPB90HaGeWq0t-R4Ub2iF64M_7MQdMfJojaPGB7TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031303260.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902022221530.67393@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, George Michaelson wrote:
>
>> Yes. even the Led Zep trash. Reddit will swallow this stuff if nobody else 
>> does. Does it have Jimmy Page and his awful three-headed-guitar and the 
>> violin bow?
>
> Getting OT, but I thought he played a twin-head, not a three-headed axe?
>
> -- Dave
>

Never seen him play any three-headed guitar, but wasn't his big thing the 
Gibson EDS-1275 "Double Neck SG"?  Don Felder used one of those to play 
his half of the guitar duet at the end of Hotel California.

-uso.

From randium at gmail.com  Sun Feb  3 15:54:24 2019
From: randium at gmail.com (randium at gmail.com)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 06:54:24 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Posters
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902022221530.67393@frieza.hoshinet.org>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jVoPB90HaGeWq0t-R4Ub2iF64M_7MQdMfJojaPGB7TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031303260.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902022221530.67393@frieza.hoshinet.org>
Message-ID: <CAFP22MUtd2nDAAR8fmEKKEUkwakZNnU8eDgFMSWEVCegZ2n05w@mail.gmail.com>

Jimmy Page's big thing was *always* the Gibson Les Paul, but he did
play a double-neck
SG
<https://www.google.com/search?q=jimmy+page+gibson+sg&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkk-v1757gAhUS6KQKHezbB1YQ_AUIDigB&biw=1680&bih=895>
with 12-strings on the upper neck and 6-strings on the lower neck.

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 4:23 AM Steve Nickolas <usotsuki at buric.co> wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, George Michaelson wrote:
> >
> >> Yes. even the Led Zep trash. Reddit will swallow this stuff if nobody
> else
> >> does. Does it have Jimmy Page and his awful three-headed-guitar and the
> >> violin bow?
> >
> > Getting OT, but I thought he played a twin-head, not a three-headed axe?
> >
> > -- Dave
> >
>
> Never seen him play any three-headed guitar, but wasn't his big thing the
> Gibson EDS-1275 "Double Neck SG"?  Don Felder used one of those to play
> his half of the guitar duet at the end of Hotel California.
>
> -uso.
>
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From ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org  Sun Feb  3 23:20:19 2019
From: ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org (Andrew Luke Nesbit)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 13:20:19 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Posters
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031303260.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jVoPB90HaGeWq0t-R4Ub2iF64M_7MQdMfJojaPGB7TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031303260.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <beab6133-a9c4-358d-fee8-1db8924e8724@andrewnesbit.org>

On 03/02/2019 02:07, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, George Michaelson wrote:
> 
>> Yes. even the Led Zep trash. Reddit will swallow this stuff if nobody
>> else does. Does it have Jimmy Page and his awful three-headed-guitar
>> and the violin bow?
> 
> Getting OT, but I thought he played a twin-head, not a three-headed axe?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n1l-_UiWbs

-- 
OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0  B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9

From spedraja at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 00:14:34 2019
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 15:14:34 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Posters
In-Reply-To: <beab6133-a9c4-358d-fee8-1db8924e8724@andrewnesbit.org>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jVoPB90HaGeWq0t-R4Ub2iF64M_7MQdMfJojaPGB7TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031303260.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <beab6133-a9c4-358d-fee8-1db8924e8724@andrewnesbit.org>
Message-ID: <CACytpF_U-37D7RemTbCxQzKarF7FKnRkJi3O6vZChPLCRi0-kw@mail.gmail.com>

*Everything* :-)

Cheers
Sergio

El dom., 3 feb. 2019 14:21, Andrew Luke Nesbit <ullbeking at andrewnesbit.org>
escribió:

> On 03/02/2019 02:07, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> > On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, George Michaelson wrote:
> >
> >> Yes. even the Led Zep trash. Reddit will swallow this stuff if nobody
> >> else does. Does it have Jimmy Page and his awful three-headed-guitar
> >> and the violin bow?
> >
> > Getting OT, but I thought he played a twin-head, not a three-headed axe?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n1l-_UiWbs
>
> --
> OpenPGP key: EB28 0338 28B7 19DA DAB0  B193 D21D 996E 883B E5B9
>
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From mike.ab3ap at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 00:43:10 2019
From: mike.ab3ap at gmail.com (Mike Markowski)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 09:43:10 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Posters - Led Zep amp
In-Reply-To: <CAFP22MUtd2nDAAR8fmEKKEUkwakZNnU8eDgFMSWEVCegZ2n05w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jVoPB90HaGeWq0t-R4Ub2iF64M_7MQdMfJojaPGB7TQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902031303260.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902022221530.67393@frieza.hoshinet.org>
 <CAFP22MUtd2nDAAR8fmEKKEUkwakZNnU8eDgFMSWEVCegZ2n05w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <270d8e2d-e86e-79cb-1d18-29ceef28803c@gmail.com>

On 2/3/19 12:54 AM, randium at gmail.com wrote:
> Jimmy Page's big thing was /always/ the Gibson Les Paul, but he did play 
> a double-neck SG 
>  with 12-strings on the upper neck and 6-strings on the lower neck.

And this year, guitar players can sound like Jimmy

https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/28465-sundragon-amps-announces-collaboration-with-jimmy-page

thanks to what the manufacturer would call a botched repair. :-)  (Sorry 
for lengthening this stray thread.)

Mike Markowski

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Feb  4 01:02:37 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun,  3 Feb 2019 10:02:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
Message-ID: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Warner Losh

    > a bunch of OSI/ISO network stack posters (thank goodness that didn't
    > become standard, woof!)

Why? The details have faded from my memory, but the lower 2 layers of the
stack (CLNP and TP4) I don't recall as being too bad. (The real block to
adoption was that people didn't want to get snarled up in the ISO standards
process.)

It at least managed (IIRC) to separate the concepts of, and naming for, 'node'
and 'network interface' (which is more than IPv6 managed, apparently on the
grounds that 'IPv4 did it that way', despite lengthy pleading that in light of
increased understanding since IPv4 was done, they were separate concepts and
deserved separate namespaces). Yes, the allocation of the names used by the
path selection (I use that term because to too many people, 'routing' means
'packet forwarding') was a total dog's breakast (allocation by naming
authority - the very definition of 'brain-damaged') but TCP/IP's was not any
better, really.

Yes, the whole session/presentation/application thing was ponderous and probably
over-complicated, but that could have been ditched and simpler things run
directly on TP4.

{And apologies for the non-Unix content, but at least it's about computers,
unlike all the postings about Jimmy Page's guitar; typical of the really poor
S/N on this list.)

    Noel

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Mon Feb  4 02:51:04 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 09:51:04 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <b7032957-3ee5-a786-6cb7-96f53e839c79@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 2/3/19 8:02 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Why? The details have faded from my memory, but the lower 2 layers of 
> the stack (CLNP and TP4) I don't recall as being too bad. (The real 
> block to adoption was that people didn't want to get snarled up in the 
> ISO standards process.)

I too am curious.  I've got no first hand experience.  (I'm not counting 
getting a couple of SimH VAXen talking to each other over DECnetIV.)

> It at least managed (IIRC) to separate the concepts of, and naming 
> for, 'node' and 'network interface' (which is more than IPv6 managed, 
> apparently on the grounds that 'IPv4 did it that way', despite lengthy 
> pleading that in light of increased understanding since IPv4 was done, 
> they were separate concepts and deserved separate namespaces).

I'm not quite sure what you mean by naming a node vs network interface.

But I do know for a fact that in IPv4, IP addresses belonged to the 
system.  Conversely, in IPv6, IP addresses belong to the interface. 
This has important security implications on multi-homed systems.

> Yes, the allocation of the names used by the path selection (I use that 
> term because to too many people, 'routing' means 'packet forwarding') 
> was a total dog's breakast (allocation by naming authority - the very 
> definition of 'brain-damaged') but TCP/IP's was not any better, really.

I don't understand what you mean by using "names" for "path selection". 
Or are you referring to named networks, and that traffic must pass 
through a (named) network?

That's probably why I don't understand how routes are allocated by a 
naming authority.

> Yes, the whole session/presentation/application thing was ponderous and 
> probably over-complicated, but that could have been ditched and simpler 
> things run directly on TP4.

I've seen various parts of session and / or presentation applied to IPv4 
(and presumably IPv6) applications.  Some people like to say that 
session is one of those two (arguments ensue as to which) grafted on top 
of the application layer.  So, even that's still there in the IP world, 
just in an arguably different order.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From norman at oclsc.org  Mon Feb  4 04:49:40 2019
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 13:49:40 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
Message-ID: <1549219784.27638.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

Noel Chiappa:

  {And apologies for the non-Unix content, but at least it's about computers,
  unlike all the postings about Jimmy Page's guitar; typical of the really poor
  S/N on this list.)

======

Didn't Jimmy Page's guitar use an LSI-11 running Lycklama's Mini-UNIX?
And what was his page size?

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From imp at bsdimp.com  Mon Feb  4 05:10:02 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 12:10:02 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Fwd:  Posters
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfoyNs+qq4FUkGiy-6EUV+6jm6zrHZks2t6tiXKopvdvpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANCZdfoS0LJz+jDod7rQE0FeasTd4Sropg6uPne8amSDY7i_WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5df9fcac-f035-20e8-afc9-095aae42ba5e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CANCZdfoyNs+qq4FUkGiy-6EUV+6jm6zrHZks2t6tiXKopvdvpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrzF6nBR5bu7YTfUpGRuopuN7KW1-UNAP3LwfKKNjcAdA@mail.gmail.com>

Meant to reply all on this....

Warner

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com>
Date: Sat, Feb 2, 2019, 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Posters
To: Grant Taylor <gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net>


I'll take pictures tomorrow. No zeppelin though...

I had hoped that I still had my ultrix version of Phil Figlio's original
usenix artwork. I can find the Usenix one and the Unix one, but not that
one online. Anybody have one they can share?

Warner

On Sat, Feb 2, 2019, 7:32 PM Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
wrote:

> On 2/2/19 6:35 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> > Is there any interest from this group in photos of any of these?
>
> I would be interested in pictures of the computer related pictures to
> see if I'd be interested enough to pay for and / or for shipping on any
> of them.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>
>
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From ca6c at bitmessage.ch  Mon Feb  4 05:57:52 2019
From: ca6c at bitmessage.ch (=?UTF-8?Q?C=C3=A1g?=)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 13:57:52 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] DEC and Dave Cutler (was Re: The John Snow's of the UNIX
 family)
In-Reply-To: <8f974f05120b34b6af1ce954e5292a2e@inventati.org>
References: <CABH=_VQ+pgdSTykpPN8WzViMvkektq6aZaNTr-HkC4fG=Cty=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190116172950.GL7733@mcvoy.com>
 <CAC20D2Ny5PQ2Pt8i2=eVvD_FdKGHnttAt+vTRv2AEnrhYcODCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190116182426.GQ7733@mcvoy.com>
 <8f974f05120b34b6af1ce954e5292a2e@inventati.org>
Message-ID: <dca5b8625e847c2b477d63d4e92f19f1@bitmessage.ch>

[replying to a wrong message, please excuse]

Larry McVoy wrote:
> Yeah, HPUX/IRIX/AIX/Solaris/etc are all dead so far as I know, but
> the basic Unix model lives on in Linux.  I wish one of the decent Unix
> variants was still vibrant just so Linux doesn't get complacent.

While Solaris development is apparently ceased, at least according to
Mr. Simon Phipps, Hockey Pucks and AIX are alive, Wikipedia says.
The problem could be that neither support amd64 and/or nobody cares
about commercial Unix systems anymore.

As far as commercial systems go, even CentOS has a far larger market
share on the supercomputer territory than RHEL does, according to
TOP500.

Regarding Solaris, even new releases are getting out quite regularly,
I don't think it has changed a bit since late 2000s-early 2010s.

--
caóc


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Feb  4 06:18:09 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 12:18:09 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Wanted: AT&T System V Release 3.2.{1,2,3} Source Code
In-Reply-To: <89b0ff51-70c9-1141-2174-bc1141ca08f8@bitsavers.org>
References: <87lg3iey47.fsf@loomcom.com>
 <CAK7dMtDu16dRGTp_8Q79t3gA9=ATb-NHzREZHY70pwaMsT93AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <87va2kdwc4.fsf@loomcom.com>
 <CAK7dMtACY=LH_WpRc7Hp4=ZaRT8v51jFVxvc12r1Bw67Bvg-kg@mail.gmail.com>
 <89b0ff51-70c9-1141-2174-bc1141ca08f8@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <02c51f0b-fb5b-b850-41cc-271dc031c6d3@bitsavers.org>



On 2/1/19 9:10 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> I turned up some 3B2 3.2 binary floppies in the CHM collection.
> Will see if I can get those archived.

Not much joy on that front.
The utilities are there, but not the boot disk or core system

We have the boot floppies for USL SVr4, but only one of the two cartridge
tapes, and that had a dried up tape band which contaminated the front of
the tape, so I haven't been able to read it.

I did manage to read a Bell Technologies SysVr3 3.0 CPIO cart, but I can't find
the install floppies which I put up on bitsavers /bits under BellTechnologies




From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Feb  4 06:23:35 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 07:23:35 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>

Co-inventor of Unix, he was born on this day in 1943.  Just think: without 
those two, we'd all be running M$ Windoze and thinking that it's wonderful (I 
know, it's an exaggeration, but think about it).

-- Dave

From clemc at ccc.com  Mon Feb  4 06:58:39 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 15:58:39 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Commercial UNIX was other stuff before
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 2:59 PM Cág <ca6c at bitmessage.ch> wrote:

> [Hockey Pucks and AIX are alive, Wikipedia says.
> The problem could be that neither support amd64 and/or

 Be careful.  The history of proprietary commercial UNIX implementations is
that they were developed by HW manufacturers that had proprietary ISAs.  So
that fact that UX was Itanium and AIX was Power (or Tru64 in its day was
Alpha) should not be surprising.  It was the way the market developed. Each
vendor sold a unique ecosystem and tried very hard to keep you in it.
Portability was designed as an >>import<< idea, and they tried to keep you
from exporting by getting you to use 'value add.'

I remember during the reign of terror that Solaris created.  Take as an
example, the standard portable threading library was pThreads.   But
Solaris threads were faster and Sun did everything it could get the ISV's
write using Solaris Threads.  Guess what -- they did.  So at DEC we found
ourselves implementing a Solaris Threads package for Tru64, so the ISVs
could run their code (I don't know if IBM or HP did it too, because at the
time, our competition was Sun).

BTW:  this attitude was nothing new.  I've said it before, the greatest
piece of marketing DEC ever did was convince the world that VMS Fortran was
Fortran-77.  It was not close.   And when you walked into most people
writing real production code (in Fortran of course), you discovered they
had used all of the VMS Fortran extensions.   When the UNIX folks arrived
on the scene the f77 in Seventh Edition was not good enough.  You saw first
Masscomp in '85, then a year later Apollo and 2 years after that, Sun
develop really, really good Fortran's -- all that were VMS Fortran
compatible.

nobody cares about commercial Unix systems anymore.
>
This is a bit of blind and sweeping statement which again, I would take
some care.
There are very large commercial sites that continue to run proprietary UNIX
on those same proprietary ISAs, often with ISV and in-home developed
applications that are quite valuable.  For instance, a lot of the financial
and insurance industries live here.   The question comes to how to value
and count it.   Just because the hackers don't work there, does not mean
there are not a lots firms doing it.

Those sites are extremely large and represent a lot of money.  The number
of them is unlikely to be growing last time I looked at the numbers.  In
fact, in some cases, they >>are<< being displaced by Intel*64 systems
running a flavor of Linux.   The key driver for this was the moving the
commercial applications such as Oracle and SAP to Linux and in particular,
Linux running on VMs.  But a huge issue was code reuse.   To reuse, Henry's
great line about BSD, Linux is just like Unix; only different.

Simply has the cost of maintaining your own ISA and complete SW ecosystem
for it continues to rise and in fact is getting more and more expensive as
the market shrinks.  At this point, the only ones left are HP, IBM and the
shadow of Sunoracle.  They are servicing a market that is fixed.


>
> As far as commercial systems go, even CentOS has a far larger market
> share on the supercomputer territory than RHEL does, according to
> TOP500.
>
Again be careful.  In fact this my world that I have lived for about 40+
years.   The Top100 system folks really do not want any stinking OS between
their application and the hardware.  They never have.  Don't kid yourself.
This is why systems like mOS (Rolf Riesen's MultiOS slides
<https://wrome.github.io/slides/rome16_riesen.pdf>  and github sources
<https://github.com/intel/mOS/wiki>) are being developed.

Simply put, the HPC folks have always wanted the OS out the way.   Unix was
a convenience for them and Linux just replaced UNIX.   The RHEL licensing
scheme is per CPU and on a Beowulf style cluster, it does not make a lot of
sense.

I know a lot of the Linux community likes to crow about the supers using
Linux.  They really don't  Its what runs on the login node and the job
scheduler.   It could be anything as long as its cheap, fast and the
physicists can hack on it.   This is a behavior that goes back the
Manhatten Project and its unchanged.  The 'capability' systems are a
high-end world that is tuned for a very specific job.   You can learn a lot
in that area, but because about making generalizations.

As I like to say -- Fortran still pays my salary.   These folks codes are
unchanged since my father's time as a 'computer' at Rocket Dyne in the
1950s.   What has changed is the size of the datasets.  But open up those
codes and you'll discover the same math.  They tend to be equation
solvers.  We just have a lot more variables.

Clem
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From ca6c at bitmessage.ch  Mon Feb  4 07:08:50 2019
From: ca6c at bitmessage.ch (=?UTF-8?Q?C=C3=A1g?=)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 15:08:50 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Commercial UNIX was other stuff before
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ca1f283401a52e7edd7a473174a500d5@bitmessage.ch>

Thanks for your insight, Mr. Cole.  My statements were merely a 
deduction
and speculation.

> As I like to say -- Fortran still pays my salary.

I wish I could say that.  I feel like nobody needs Fortran anymore, and
my skills are being wasted.

--
caóc


From lm at mcvoy.com  Mon Feb  4 07:17:33 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 13:17:33 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Commercial UNIX was other stuff before
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190203211733.GO6420@mcvoy.com>

On Sun, Feb 03, 2019 at 03:58:39PM -0500, Clem Cole wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 2:59 PM C??g <ca6c at bitmessage.ch> wrote:
> 
> > [Hockey Pucks and AIX are alive, Wikipedia says.
> > The problem could be that neither support amd64 and/or
> 
>  Be careful.  The history of proprietary commercial UNIX implementations is
> that they were developed by HW manufacturers that had proprietary ISAs.  So
> that fact that UX was Itanium and AIX was Power (or Tru64 in its day was
> Alpha) should not be surprising.  It was the way the market developed. Each
> vendor sold a unique ecosystem and tried very hard to keep you in it.
> Portability was designed as an >>import<< idea, and they tried to keep you
> from exporting by getting you to use 'value add.'

Not on Sun's.  I personally wrote lint libraries for other OS's, BSD,
strict POSIX, System V, etc.  Had a huge fight with Gingell to get
them included in SunOS 4.something (he didn't want to give up 40KB
of extra files in the install; I threatened to quit if they didn't
go in - I won).

My theory was Sun was the most liked development platform, I wanted
to keep that going.  The idea was make it so you could develop for 
any major target on Suns.  Yeah, I wanted the devs to be on Suns but
be able to deploy on whatever you had to. 

> Linux running on VMs.  But a huge issue was code reuse.   To reuse, Henry's
> great line about BSD, Linux is just like Unix; only different.

That's because people are sloppy and don't code to a standard.  If you
look through the BitKeeper code you'll find our own libc that is portable
across pretty much every major commercial Unix, Linux (at one point on
Alpha, PPC, MIPS, SPARC, x86, x86-64, even whatever the IBM mainframe
Unix), BSD, MacOS and Windows.

The hardest part was fork(2), we didn't figure out a way to emulate that
so we redid windows spawn() style on Unix.  I have typed out 

	switch (pid = fork()) {
		...
	}

in decades.

Yeah, we have a few #ifdefs but the libc interface our code uses is 
quite clean and portable.

So it is possible to have code that runs everywhere but you have to
get disciplined about it.

Other than those quibbles, I agree with Clem.

From grog at lemis.com  Mon Feb  4 07:39:08 2019
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg 'groggy' Lehey)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 08:39:08 +1100
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>

On Monday,  4 February 2019 at  7:23:35 +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> Co-inventor of Unix, he was born on this day in 1943.  Just think: without
> those two, we'd all be running M$ Windoze and thinking that it's wonderful (I
> know, it's an exaggeration, but think about it).

Without Unix, Microsoft would not have created Microsoft "Windows".
Even it has roots in Unix.

Greg
--
Sent from my desktop computer.
Finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key.
See complete headers for address and phone numbers.
This message is digitally signed.  If your Microsoft mail program
reports problems, please read http://lemis.com/broken-MUA
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From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Feb  4 08:07:52 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 09:07:52 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:

> Without Unix, Microsoft would not have created Microsoft "Windows".

I'd like to see some evidence for that; without Unix, what would we be 
running now?  I doubt whether it would've been Linux, there being no 
inspiration for it...

My vague (and rough) recollection is CP/M -> DOS -> Windows.

> Even it has roots in Unix.

Only inasmuch as it has directories, users, and permissions (which any 
semi-decent OS would have anyway)...  Admittedly I have never compromised 
my integrity by using/programming it, so I am willing to be corrected.

And yes, I know about POSIX compatibility, but so is Linux, and it's 
different enough from Unix to be damned annoying.

-- Dave

From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 08:14:05 2019
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 17:14:05 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Commercial UNIX was other stuff before
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBfzy=qhHfF3x8=-b3jBS0TT3GbTf-o7q576xaZT1GZQeA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2019 at 16:00, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> BTW:  this attitude was nothing new.  I've said it before, the greatest
> piece of marketing DEC ever did was convince the world that VMS Fortran was
> Fortran-77.  It was not close.   And when you walked into most people
> writing real production code (in Fortran of course), you discovered they
> had used all of the VMS Fortran extensions.   When the UNIX folks arrived
> on the scene the f77 in Seventh Edition was not good enough.  You saw first
> Masscomp in '85, then a year later Apollo and 2 years after that, Sun
> develop really, really good Fortran's -- all that were VMS Fortran
> compatible.
>

This code was apparently so pervasive and long-lived that the GNU Fortran
compiler added compatibility for DEC extensions less than two years ago, in
version 7.  There must be enough demand for DEC's additions to have made it
worthwhile.

-Henry
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From clemc at ccc.com  Mon Feb  4 08:20:59 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 17:20:59 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Commercial UNIX was other stuff before
In-Reply-To: <ca1f283401a52e7edd7a473174a500d5@bitmessage.ch>
References: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ca1f283401a52e7edd7a473174a500d5@bitmessage.ch>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PXkg-rKkfPHOK0yAdomKZvOdSGAGFvrUfLf9fgyTZmig@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 4:10 PM Cág <ca6c at bitmessage.ch> wrote:

> I wish I could say that.  I feel like nobody needs Fortran anymore, and
> my skills are being wasted.
>
FYI - the last time I saw the numbers, about 75-85% of the production at
CERN was Fortran.  This is very similar to the USA's high energy labs.  I
have not seen the numbers of the Darmstadt European space folks, but I
would not be surprised if they are much different than NASA's.   That was a
little lower, but the heavy supercomputer codes NASA uses are still very
much Fortran dominate.

Finding good Fortran programmers can be difficult.  Most today are from the
natural sciences (like was true in the 50s before we created 'Computer
Science'), but there are still lots of jobs if you know it.  But I suspect
that those jobs are going to be near campuses that support heavy science
types.
ᐧ
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From clemc at ccc.com  Mon Feb  4 08:23:48 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 17:23:48 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Commercial UNIX was other stuff before
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBfzy=qhHfF3x8=-b3jBS0TT3GbTf-o7q576xaZT1GZQeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBfzy=qhHfF3x8=-b3jBS0TT3GbTf-o7q576xaZT1GZQeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MNv7naAON2S9kUAuOZzHJJzwNg8gqxy4s_C4E=-8qPZg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:14 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:

> This code was apparently so pervasive and long-lived that the GNU Fortran
> compiler added compatibility for DEC extensions less than two years ago, in
> version 7.  There must be enough demand for DEC's additions to have made it
> worthwhile.
>
Truth is most of the important ones went into Fortran-90 if I understand it
correctly (I'd trust Paul W.s comments if he knows).  Again, I'm not a
compiler guy, but I've been known to eat lunch with a few of them :-)

Clem
ᐧ
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From clemc at ccc.com  Mon Feb  4 08:33:03 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 17:33:03 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2O61=AC_opfd-iVyiwfNsSDKeRu4S4SLqsyk_ccp86xPw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:08 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

>
> My vague (and rough) recollection is CP/M -> DOS -> Windows.
>
"Windows" == Win95 -- which was a user Interface spec the kernel died

IBM CP-DOS -> OS/2 --\
                                       \
                                         ---> NT OS-2 -> NT/WIN .......
 Today's Windows
CMU Mach --\                  /
                      ---> Mica -/
DEC VMS   --/


When Cutler did Mica and then NT OS-2 he did not care what the user
interface was.  Mica was a pure uk and NT OS-2 was also, but by the time of
the product it became a hybrid.   Putting a different user interface, be it
DOS, OS/2, Unix, VMS or Windows was in the kernel design.

Clem
ᐧ
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From michael at kjorling.se  Mon Feb  4 08:39:26 2019
From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 22:39:26 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20190203223924.4i735ix4z3a7mi24@h-174-65.A328.priv.bahnhof.se>

On 4 Feb 2019 09:07 +1100, from dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall):
> My vague (and rough) recollection is CP/M -> DOS -> Windows.

CP/M is (was?) to MS-DOS roughly as UNIX is to Linux (the overall
system, not referring to just the kernel); a source of inspiration,
but not a direct ancestor. Then let's not get into the Windows / OS/2
/ Windows NT confusion, product line splits/merges and rebranding.
IIRC, at least until Windows 3.0 (1990), and possibly until Windows 95
when Microsoft did their best to hide the troubled history, Windows
applications were _expected_ to ultimately rely on the old-style
MS-DOS API for basic operating system services like file management,
and could choose to (or were expected to) call those APIs directly
instead of going through the Windows API. For a long time, Windows was
just a fancy (some would almost certainly say overrated) graphical
shell.

I, too, would like to see some reference or at least justification for
the claim that Microsoft would not have created Windows had it not
been for Unix. As I recall, Visi On did use some Unix as its
development platform; and Microsoft Windows was created in response to
Visi On; but that's the only obvious causal connection between Unix
and Windows that I can see, and it's a tenuous one at best.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)

From usotsuki at buric.co  Mon Feb  4 08:55:37 2019
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 17:55:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902031754560.35191@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>
>> Without Unix, Microsoft would not have created Microsoft "Windows".
>
> I'd like to see some evidence for that; without Unix, what would we be 
> running now?  I doubt whether it would've been Linux, there being no 
> inspiration for it...
>
> My vague (and rough) recollection is CP/M -> DOS -> Windows.
>
>> Even it has roots in Unix.
>
> Only inasmuch as it has directories, users, and permissions (which any 
> semi-decent OS would have anyway)...  Admittedly I have never compromised my 
> integrity by using/programming it, so I am willing to be corrected.
>
> And yes, I know about POSIX compatibility, but so is Linux, and it's 
> different enough from Unix to be damned annoying.
>
> -- Dave
>

Keep in mind that the MS-DOS 2 "handles" API for file access is based 
*directly* on Xenix, and replaced the MS-DOS 1 "FCB" API borrowed from 
CP/M.

-uso.

From grawity at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 09:33:43 2019
From: grawity at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Mantas_Mikul=C4=97nas?=)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 01:33:43 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Signal/noise (Was: OSI stack (Was: Posters))
In-Reply-To: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:03 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>     > From: Warner Losh
>
>     > a bunch of OSI/ISO network stack posters (thank goodness that didn't
>     > become standard, woof!)
>
> Why? The details have faded from my memory, but the lower 2 layers of the
> stack (CLNP and TP4) I don't recall as being too bad. (The real block to
> adoption was that people didn't want to get snarled up in the ISO standards
> process.)
>
> It at least managed (IIRC) to separate the concepts of, and naming for, 'node'
> and 'network interface' (which is more than IPv6 managed, apparently on the
> grounds that 'IPv4 did it that way', despite lengthy pleading that in light of
> increased understanding since IPv4 was done, they were separate concepts and
> deserved separate namespaces). Yes, the allocation of the names used by the
> path selection (I use that term because to too many people, 'routing' means
> 'packet forwarding') was a total dog's breakast (allocation by naming
> authority - the very definition of 'brain-damaged') but TCP/IP's was not any
> better, really.
>
> Yes, the whole session/presentation/application thing was ponderous and probably
> over-complicated, but that could have been ditched and simpler things run
> directly on TP4.
>
> {And apologies for the non-Unix content, but at least it's about computers,
> unlike all the postings about Jimmy Page's guitar; typical of the really poor
> S/N on this list.)
>

With apologies for the outburst:

When I first subscribed to tuhs several years ago (even though I don't
really belong in here; I'm younger than even Linux, much less any of
the Unixen), I *very much* enjoyed reading the various stories about
UUCP, about Sun, about X11, VMS, ARPAnet – often first-hand tales, no
less.

So I don't know what counts as 'signal' on this list versus 'noise',
but I'd much rather read a million posts about OSI, CLNP and other
networks – a history lesson and information that's been getting scarce
in general – than kill/mute yet another thread full of generic "boo M$
Windoze" drivel that I can already find on Reddit.

Thanks,

-- 
Mantas Mikulėnas

From akosela at andykosela.com  Mon Feb  4 09:37:13 2019
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 17:37:13 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902031754560.35191@frieza.hoshinet.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902031754560.35191@frieza.hoshinet.org>
Message-ID: <CALMnNGimSmUhmxRZ1Dc0vO7u5do+pvxrGi+Y34Ce_=niUBbUJg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sunday, February 3, 2019, Steve Nickolas <usotsuki at buric.co> wrote:

> On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
>>
>> Without Unix, Microsoft would not have created Microsoft "Windows".
>>>
>>
>> I'd like to see some evidence for that; without Unix, what would we be
>> running now?  I doubt whether it would've been Linux, there being no
>> inspiration for it...
>>
>> My vague (and rough) recollection is CP/M -> DOS -> Windows.
>>
>> Even it has roots in Unix.
>>>
>>
>> Only inasmuch as it has directories, users, and permissions (which any
>> semi-decent OS would have anyway)...  Admittedly I have never compromised
>> my integrity by using/programming it, so I am willing to be corrected.
>>
>> And yes, I know about POSIX compatibility, but so is Linux, and it's
>> different enough from Unix to be damned annoying.
>>
>> -- Dave
>>
>>
> Keep in mind that the MS-DOS 2 "handles" API for file access is based
> *directly* on Xenix, and replaced the MS-DOS 1 "FCB" API borrowed from CP/M.
>
>
And also don't forget that Xenix had the largest UNIX installed base
measured by the number of machines it was installed on.  People talking
about BSD and System V in the 80s, but it was Xenix that ruled on micros.
So at the time Microsoft offered both UNIX and MS-DOS.

--Andy
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From krewat at kilonet.net  Mon Feb  4 10:10:50 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 19:10:50 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Signal/noise (Was: OSI stack (Was: Posters))
In-Reply-To: <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d50eb774-29a6-b431-a5fa-0fd7f7b82b1b@kilonet.net>

On 2/3/2019 6:33 PM, Mantas Mikulėnas wrote:
>
> With apologies for the outburst:
>
> When I first subscribed to tuhs several years ago (even though I don't
> really belong in here; I'm younger than even Linux, much less any of
> the Unixen), I *very much* enjoyed reading the various stories about
> UUCP, about Sun, about X11, VMS, ARPAnet – often first-hand tales, no
> less.
>
> So I don't know what counts as 'signal' on this list versus 'noise',
> but I'd much rather read a million posts about OSI, CLNP and other
> networks – a history lesson and information that's been getting scarce
> in general – than kill/mute yet another thread full of generic "boo M$
> Windoze" drivel that I can already find on Reddit.
>
>

I concur. However, discussions of how many necks Jimmy Page's guitar had 
were pretty much way off topic. I mean, really, THREE? Led Zeppelin was 
slightly before my time (I'm 53). But who doesn't know it was only two?

;)


art k.


From lm at mcvoy.com  Mon Feb  4 10:32:24 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 16:32:24 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20190204003224.GQ6420@mcvoy.com>

On Mon, Feb 04, 2019 at 09:07:52AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Greg 'groggy' Lehey wrote:
> 
> >Without Unix, Microsoft would not have created Microsoft "Windows".
> 
> I'd like to see some evidence for that; without Unix, what would we be
> running now?  I doubt whether it would've been Linux, there being no
> inspiration for it...
> 
> My vague (and rough) recollection is CP/M -> DOS -> Windows.

Yep.

> >Even it has roots in Unix.
> 
> Only inasmuch as it has directories, users, and permissions (which any
> semi-decent OS would have anyway)...  Admittedly I have never compromised my
> integrity by using/programming it, so I am willing to be corrected.
> 
> And yes, I know about POSIX compatibility, but so is Linux, and it's
> different enough from Unix to be damned annoying.

It's what you are used to.  I haven't tried it but apparently Microsoft
has implemented the Linux syscall layer that you can just drop a distro
on top of windows and the binaries work.

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Mon Feb  4 10:54:50 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 17:54:50 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Signal/noise (Was: OSI stack (Was: Posters))
In-Reply-To: <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34abdea7-db7e-3964-3b13-32cdd7d73c93@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 2/3/19 4:33 PM, Mantas Mikulėnas wrote:
> When I first subscribed to tuhs several years ago (even though I don't 
> really belong in here; I'm younger than even Linux, much less any of the 
> Unixen),

FULL STOP

I see no reason for you to not belong here.

I too am younger than most of the things discussed on this list.

But that doesn't some me from participating ~> discussing ~> learning. 
Nor do I think it should stop you.

Just be mindful of where your roots are or aren't.

After all, Unix collectively (including Linux) is doing the wrong thing 
and going the wrong way if it turns people away that want to learn about it.

Resume.

> I *very much* enjoyed reading the various stories about UUCP, about Sun, 
> about X11, VMS, ARPAnet – often first-hand tales, no less.

I do too.

I also enjoy being able to discuss things with people as I'm reading 
about various technologies elsewhere.

That being said, I don't know that TUHS is the best place for some 
non-Unix related things.  That's what the COFF mailing list is for.  ;-)

> So I don't know what counts as 'signal' on this list versus 'noise', 
> but I'd much rather read a million posts about OSI, CLNP and other 
> networks – a history lesson and information that's been getting scarce 
> in general – than kill/mute yet another thread full of generic "boo M$ 
> Windoze" drivel that I can already find on Reddit.

I'd suggest COFF if you aren't subscribed.  I'd also suggest the cctalk 
mailing list.

Also, if you've not read it, I HIGHLY suggest "Where Wizards Stay Up 
Late - The Origins of the Internet".

Finally, doing.  Lots of doing or trying.  Even if you find out that 
it's wrong.  That's gaining experience that I think makes it easier to 
learn from.

comp.os.vms is another good place to watch ~> read ~> learn.

> Thanks,

:-)



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From usotsuki at buric.co  Mon Feb  4 11:00:47 2019
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 20:00:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <20190204003224.GQ6420@mcvoy.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190204003224.GQ6420@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902031959480.42910@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:

> It's what you are used to.  I haven't tried it but apparently Microsoft
> has implemented the Linux syscall layer that you can just drop a distro
> on top of windows and the binaries work.

I've used it with Debian.  Add an X server and PulseAudio server on the 
Windows side and it's really not bad.

-uso.

From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Mon Feb  4 11:09:17 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 20:09:17 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy Birthday Ken Thompson!
Message-ID: <201902040109.x1419HqH087769@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> without those two we'd all be running M$ Windoze

Apropos of which, I complained to Walter Isaacson about his
writing them out of "The Innovators"--Turing Award, National
Medal of Technology, Japan Prize and all. I suppose I should
not be surprised that he didn't deign to answer.

Doug

From paul.winalski at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 12:03:04 2019
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 21:03:04 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2O61=AC_opfd-iVyiwfNsSDKeRu4S4SLqsyk_ccp86xPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAC20D2O61=AC_opfd-iVyiwfNsSDKeRu4S4SLqsyk_ccp86xPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VT2_knHqjWK4gNr9xL+gegBEddMBHg1j0S-h+8pzOGaCg@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/3/19, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> IBM CP-DOS -> OS/2 --\
>                                        \
>                                          ---> NT OS-2 -> NT/WIN .......
>  Today's Windows
> CMU Mach --\                  /
>                       ---> Mica -/
> DEC VMS   --/

I think that bottom part should read:

CMU Mach --\
                     ---> VAXeln --> Mica
DEC VMS  --/

Cutler took the concept of a microkernel from CMU Mach and combined it
with design concepts he had used in VMS to create a real-time OS for
the VAX called VAXeln.  DEC had several proposed machine architectures
for a RISC-based successor to VAX.  The one from Cutler's DECwest was
called PRISM.  Mica was the microkernel-based OS for PRISM.  The
intent was to build VMS and UNIX personality layers on top of the Mica
microkernel.  PRISM was cancelled in favor of Alpha, and that led to
Cutler's departure for Microsoft.

> When Cutler did Mica and then NT OS-2 he did not care what the user
> interface was.  Mica was a pure uk and NT OS-2 was also, but by the time of
> the product it became a hybrid.   Putting a different user interface, be it
> DOS, OS/2, Unix, VMS or Windows was in the kernel design.

As with Mica the original design was for various personality modules
(DOS, OS/2, Unix, whatever) to be layered on top of the microkernel.
The NT microkernel internals looked very familiar to VMS weenies such
as I.  Cutler was able to resist attempts to smear the layers by
putting hooks etc. in the microkernel, but over time the clean break
between the kernel and Windows has been muddied.

CMU Mach was the microkernel for Jobs's NeXT OS, and with BSD Unix
layered on top, was the basis for Apple's OS X.  OS X still uses the
Mach object file format, MACH-O.

-Paul W.

From paul.winalski at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 12:16:37 2019
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 21:16:37 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Commercial UNIX was other stuff before
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2MNv7naAON2S9kUAuOZzHJJzwNg8gqxy4s_C4E=-8qPZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEdTPBfzy=qhHfF3x8=-b3jBS0TT3GbTf-o7q576xaZT1GZQeA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2MNv7naAON2S9kUAuOZzHJJzwNg8gqxy4s_C4E=-8qPZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VRt01u3W7GFVw-wjyuVFP5wsvutKAqt4Ek5B=BKYWbhRw@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/3/19, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:14 PM Henry Bent <henry.r.bent at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This code was apparently so pervasive and long-lived that the GNU Fortran
>> compiler added compatibility for DEC extensions less than two years ago,
>> in
>> version 7.  There must be enough demand for DEC's additions to have made
>> it
>> worthwhile.
>>
> Truth is most of the important ones went into Fortran-90 if I understand it
> correctly (I'd trust Paul W.s comments if he knows).  Again, I'm not a
> compiler guy, but I've been known to eat lunch with a few of them :-)

The de facto standard for Fortran in the 1970s was IBM Fortran IV.
All of the important academic packages, both in the physical sciences
and the stats packages (SPSS, BMDP, etc.) used in Economics,
Psychology, Sociology, etc., were written in Fortran IV.  The ANSI
(later ISO) standards committee was more or less an irrelevancy.
Vendors added their own proprietary extensions to Fortran IV.  With
the VAX DEC was able to supplant IBM in the educational/research
marketplace by offering mainframe-level performance at a fraction of
the IBM price.  VAX Fortran, and its extensions to Fortran IV, thus
became the new de facto standard in the education/research market in
the early 1980s.  VAX Fortran did eventually implement all of the
features of Fortran 77, but for quite a long time we didn't bother
implementing the missing pieces because there was no market demand for
them.  As Clem said, the important VAX Fortran extensions to Fortran
IV have over time made their way into the ISO standard.

-Paul W.

From wkt at tuhs.org  Mon Feb  4 12:23:32 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 12:23:32 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Signal/noise
In-Reply-To: <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190204022332.GA14788@minnie.tuhs.org>

> So I don't know what counts as 'signal' on this list versus 'noise',
> but I'd much rather read a million posts about OSI, CLNP and other
> networks – a history lesson and information that's been getting scarce
> in general – than kill/mute yet another thread full of generic "boo M$
> Windoze" drivel that I can already find on Reddit.

Warren's protocol for off-topic material: let it slide for a day or two,
then politely ask people to move it to the COFF list when it doesn't
veer back to the Unix direction :-)

Cheers, Warren

From lm at mcvoy.com  Mon Feb  4 12:37:15 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 18:37:15 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Signal/noise
In-Reply-To: <20190204022332.GA14788@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190204022332.GA14788@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20190204023715.GU6420@mcvoy.com>

On Mon, Feb 04, 2019 at 12:23:32PM +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > So I don't know what counts as 'signal' on this list versus 'noise',
> > but I'd much rather read a million posts about OSI, CLNP and other
> > networks ??? a history lesson and information that's been getting scarce
> > in general ??? than kill/mute yet another thread full of generic "boo M$
> > Windoze" drivel that I can already find on Reddit.
> 
> Warren's protocol for off-topic material: let it slide for a day or two,
> then politely ask people to move it to the COFF list when it doesn't
> veer back to the Unix direction :-)

And I must say you have done a great job of handling stuff going off 
course.  I don't mind a little wander, this list reminds me a lot of
Usenet around 1985 or so.  Not a ton of people but most are pretty
darn interesting.  So your policy of letting it wander a bit seems
just right to me, yeah the Jimmy Page guitar thing was way off track
but it wound down fairly quickly.

I agree completely with Mantas' comment about "drivel that I can
already find on Reddit."  The technical content level for programmers
on reddit seems pretty lame.  Though the one that really puzzles me is

https://news.ycombinator.com/

That place is called "Hacker news" and the level of decent hacker
content is amazingly low.  Once in a while there would stuff like
the Netflix writeup of how they got to 200Gbit/sec on a one core
server (with the data coming up to user space to be encrypted,
and doing it with 1Mb/s per socket, that's 200,000 sockets running
in parallel).  That was an amazingly impressive accomplishment 
and the sort of thing I'd like to see on Hacker news but I rarely
do.  As in once every 10 years or so.  I stopped reading it.

So go you, Warren.  You have the right touch for the list and while
I hope you continue to do so for decades, maybe think about picking
out someone who seems like a younger you as a backup.  I like this
list a lot.

Cheers all,

--lm

From bakul at bitblocks.com  Mon Feb  4 12:57:53 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 18:57:53 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Signal/noise
In-Reply-To: <20190204023715.GU6420@mcvoy.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190204022332.GA14788@minnie.tuhs.org> <20190204023715.GU6420@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <1ACB2A2B-FE88-42E4-B08A-BDA6D074D902@bitblocks.com>

On Feb 3, 2019, at 6:37 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> 
> And I must say you have done a great job of handling stuff going off 
> course.  I don't mind a little wander, this list reminds me a lot of
> Usenet around 1985 or so.  Not a ton of people but most are pretty
> darn interesting.  So your policy of letting it wander a bit seems
> just right to me, yeah the Jimmy Page guitar thing was way off track
> but it wound down fairly quickly.

I have said this before (or at least thought it!) but I, and I
suspect some others, think of TUHS much like comp.unix.wizards
of the old.

Though Jimmy >PAGE< would certainly fit TUHS :-)


From imp at bsdimp.com  Mon Feb  4 13:26:10 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 20:26:10 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Signal/noise
In-Reply-To: <1ACB2A2B-FE88-42E4-B08A-BDA6D074D902@bitblocks.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190204022332.GA14788@minnie.tuhs.org> <20190204023715.GU6420@mcvoy.com>
 <1ACB2A2B-FE88-42E4-B08A-BDA6D074D902@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfpTVeGd=KiMy8=Fcp3cdMeVOSn7YAfQ50m+yg=8VEphNg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019, 7:55 PM Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com wrote:

> On Feb 3, 2019, at 6:37 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> >
> > And I must say you have done a great job of handling stuff going off
> > course.  I don't mind a little wander, this list reminds me a lot of
> > Usenet around 1985 or so.  Not a ton of people but most are pretty
> > darn interesting.  So your policy of letting it wander a bit seems
> > just right to me, yeah the Jimmy Page guitar thing was way off track
> > but it wound down fairly quickly.
>
> I have said this before (or at least thought it!) but I, and I
> suspect some others, think of TUHS much like comp.unix.wizards
> of the old.
>
> Though Jimmy >PAGE< would certainly fit TUHS :-)
>

So would Jimmy SWAP.

Warner

>
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From crossd at gmail.com  Mon Feb  4 13:26:27 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2019 22:26:27 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Signal/noise
In-Reply-To: <1ACB2A2B-FE88-42E4-B08A-BDA6D074D902@bitblocks.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190204022332.GA14788@minnie.tuhs.org> <20190204023715.GU6420@mcvoy.com>
 <1ACB2A2B-FE88-42E4-B08A-BDA6D074D902@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5Zzw1RLMkShLVjDK8c82bz+XPKHvYwL2wMhhdEu6JFVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 9:55 PM Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:

> Though Jimmy >PAGE< would certainly fit TUHS :-)
>

Well, I guess it depends on the SIZE of Jimmy Page.

And...Does he go to 11? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBiJ-K0IpDA

        - Dan C.

(I'm sorry; I know I really shouldn't but Spinal Tap is such a cultural
reference amongst Unix people....)
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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Mon Feb  4 13:57:40 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 03:57:40 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2O61=AC_opfd-iVyiwfNsSDKeRu4S4SLqsyk_ccp86xPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAC20D2O61=AC_opfd-iVyiwfNsSDKeRu4S4SLqsyk_ccp86xPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.ef751030-3bb2-4d5c-9c75-5ed8c0610df6@mail.outlook.com>

Indeed, without Unix there wouldn't have been the same rise of Mach, or the drive to make a portable VMS, as there wouldn't be a C either. 




Many of the leaked internal tools to build NT reflect that all the back office stuff was on Xenix and VMS.  Just as you can find mentions of emacs in the makefiles for NT, and how their life would be in jeopardy for changing the tab indentions. 




Unix had such an incredible impact on the market that without it everything would be different. 




Without Xenix micros would have continued to be snubbed by the high end crowd depriving that critical jump from machines that cost more than a large house to personal space. 




What would be the portable OS to rule them all?  TripOS is the best I can imagine.  BCPL everywhere. 








Get Outlook for Android







On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 6:34 AM +0800, "Clem Cole" <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:












On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 5:08 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

My vague (and rough) recollection is CP/M -> DOS -> Windows.
"Windows" == Win95 -- which was a user Interface spec the kernel died
IBM CP-DOS -> OS/2 --\                                       \                                         ---> NT OS-2 -> NT/WIN .......   Today's WindowsCMU Mach --\                  /                      ---> Mica -/DEC VMS   --/

When Cutler did Mica and then NT OS-2 he did not care what the user interface was.  Mica was a pure uk and NT OS-2 was also, but by the time of the product it became a hybrid.   Putting a different user interface, be it DOS, OS/2, Unix, VMS or Windows was in the kernel design.
Clemᐧ





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From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Feb  4 14:55:37 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 15:55:37 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Signal/noise
In-Reply-To: <1ACB2A2B-FE88-42E4-B08A-BDA6D074D902@bitblocks.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190204022332.GA14788@minnie.tuhs.org> <20190204023715.GU6420@mcvoy.com>
 <1ACB2A2B-FE88-42E4-B08A-BDA6D074D902@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902041535470.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sun, 3 Feb 2019, Bakul Shah wrote:

> I have said this before (or at least thought it!) but I, and I suspect 
> some others, think of TUHS much like comp.unix.wizards of the old.

That's pretty much how I think of it (until the filthy spammers trashed 
the joint, of course, there being no authentication in those days, because 
there was no need for it; if there was a problem child, you merely picked 
up the phone or sent a short email to the site admin: end of problem[*]).

> Though Jimmy >PAGE< would certainly fit TUHS :-)

Well done, sir :-)  Perhaps we need a list for Old-Unix-Lovers-Into-Rock?

[*]
With exceptions; one ISP merely had an auto-responder on their abuse 
address ("He's gone"), but that's OT (ask me privately, if anyone cares).

-- Dave, the anti-spammer Unix-loving ageing hippie

From jon at fourwinds.com  Mon Feb  4 16:20:31 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Sun, 03 Feb 2019 22:20:31 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Signal/noise
In-Reply-To: <1ACB2A2B-FE88-42E4-B08A-BDA6D074D902@bitblocks.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAPWNY8Wx87Qx+gP+bm-YskuGbvu1pXoh2=rWafA50u8zWxSY-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190204022332.GA14788@minnie.tuhs.org> <20190204023715.GU6420@mcvoy.com>
 <1ACB2A2B-FE88-42E4-B08A-BDA6D074D902@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <201902040620.x146KVei010122@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

Bakul Shah writes:
> On Feb 3, 2019, at 6:37 PM, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > 
> > And I must say you have done a great job of handling stuff going off 
> > course.  I don't mind a little wander, this list reminds me a lot of
> > Usenet around 1985 or so.  Not a ton of people but most are pretty
> > darn interesting.  So your policy of letting it wander a bit seems
> > just right to me, yeah the Jimmy Page guitar thing was way off track
> > but it wound down fairly quickly.
>
> I have said this before (or at least thought it!) but I, and I
> suspect some others, think of TUHS much like comp.unix.wizards
> of the old.
>
> Though Jimmy >PAGE< would certainly fit TUHS :-)

Yeah, I was really wanting the poster of George Goebels playing his two-headed VAX.

From peter at rulingia.com  Mon Feb  4 16:25:22 2019
From: peter at rulingia.com (Peter Jeremy)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 17:25:22 +1100
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <ADFDF14544A65F35.ef751030-3bb2-4d5c-9c75-5ed8c0610df6@mail.outlook.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAC20D2O61=AC_opfd-iVyiwfNsSDKeRu4S4SLqsyk_ccp86xPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.ef751030-3bb2-4d5c-9c75-5ed8c0610df6@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20190204062522.GA78675@server.rulingia.com>

On 2019-Feb-03 15:58:39 -0500, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>Portability was designed as an >>import<< idea, and they tried to keep you
>from exporting by getting you to use 'value add.'

This is definitely the approach used by FSF/GNU - witness gcc and bash.

On 2019-Feb-04 09:07:52 +1100, Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>And yes, I know about POSIX compatibility, but so is Linux, and it's
>different enough from Unix to be damned annoying.

IMO, POSIX wouldn't exist without Unix.

On 2019-Feb-04 03:57:40 +0000, Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
>What would be the portable OS to rule them all?  TripOS is the best I can imagine.  BCPL everywhere. 

That was my thought as well, though TripOS started in 1976 so it's likely
that the development team were aware of Unix and make have taken some of its
ideas onboard.

That said, Unix was not portable to start with.  I think that the important
parts were that the source was readily available within academia, it was
written in a high level language and it was small enough to be understood.

-- 
Peter Jeremy
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From usotsuki at buric.co  Mon Feb  4 17:59:03 2019
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 02:59:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <20190204062522.GA78675@server.rulingia.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAC20D2O61=AC_opfd-iVyiwfNsSDKeRu4S4SLqsyk_ccp86xPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.ef751030-3bb2-4d5c-9c75-5ed8c0610df6@mail.outlook.com>
 <20190204062522.GA78675@server.rulingia.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902040258320.67536@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Peter Jeremy wrote:

> On 2019-Feb-03 15:58:39 -0500, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>> Portability was designed as an >>import<< idea, and they tried to keep you
>> from exporting by getting you to use 'value add.'
>
> This is definitely the approach used by FSF/GNU - witness gcc and bash.

I think the term is "Embrace, Extend, Exterminate" <dalek.jpg>

-uso.

From mcmer-tuhs at tor.at  Mon Feb  4 19:33:50 2019
From: mcmer-tuhs at tor.at (Marcus MERIGHI)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 10:33:50 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Commercial UNIX was other stuff before
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PXkg-rKkfPHOK0yAdomKZvOdSGAGFvrUfLf9fgyTZmig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ca1f283401a52e7edd7a473174a500d5@bitmessage.ch>
 <CAC20D2PXkg-rKkfPHOK0yAdomKZvOdSGAGFvrUfLf9fgyTZmig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190204093350.GC47448@tor.at>

Hello, 

clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole), 2019.02.03 (Sun) 23:20 (CET):
> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 4:10 PM Cág <ca6c at bitmessage.ch> wrote:
> 
> > I wish I could say that.  I feel like nobody needs Fortran anymore, and
> > my skills are being wasted.
> >
> FYI - the last time I saw the numbers, about 75-85% of the production at
> CERN was Fortran.  This is very similar to the USA's high energy labs.  I
> have not seen the numbers of the Darmstadt European space folks, but I
> would not be surprised if they are much different than NASA's.   That was a

Sven Pruefer (Prüfer) mentions that Fortran is in heavy use at German
Space Operations Center:

https://media.ccc.de/v/35c3-9923-space_ops_101#t=735

Marcus

From mutiny.mutiny at india.com  Mon Feb  4 19:43:24 2019
From: mutiny.mutiny at india.com (Donald ODona)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 09:43:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <95250783.149661.1549273404898.JavaMail.tomcat@india-live-be03>

Ken invented *NIX(up to edition 3 he wrote 100% of the sources), ed(before regexp qed), b (and therefore most of c). 
Ken is one of the most underrated persons of all. I hope the day will come, humankind will show respect ! 

At 3 Feb 2019 20:24:34 +0000 (+00:00) from Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org>:
> Co-inventor of Unix, he was born on this day in 1943.  Just think: without 
> those two, we'd all be running M$ Windoze and thinking that it's wonderful (I 
> know, it's an exaggeration, but think about it).
> 
> -- Dave

From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Mon Feb  4 22:32:59 2019
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 13:32:59 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Commercial UNIX was other stuff before
In-Reply-To: <20190204093350.GC47448@tor.at>
References: <CAC20D2PQV7T4-LfdOhTjfW0Wraf8iK7=-agdZHfAXxyz9wbTkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <ca1f283401a52e7edd7a473174a500d5@bitmessage.ch>
 <CAC20D2PXkg-rKkfPHOK0yAdomKZvOdSGAGFvrUfLf9fgyTZmig@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190204093350.GC47448@tor.at>
Message-ID: <20190204123259.4purQ%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Marcus MERIGHI wrote in <20190204093350.GC47448 at tor.at>:
 |Hello, 
 |
 |clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole), 2019.02.03 (Sun) 23:20 (CET):
 |> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019 at 4:10 PM Cág <ca6c at bitmessage.ch> wrote:
 |> 
 |>> I wish I could say that.  I feel like nobody needs Fortran anymore, and
 |>> my skills are being wasted.
 |>>
 |> FYI - the last time I saw the numbers, about 75-85% of the production at
 |> CERN was Fortran.  This is very similar to the USA's high energy labs.  I
 |> have not seen the numbers of the Darmstadt European space folks, but I

The much larger site with "actual science" in it is located in
Oberpfaffenhofen, Bavaria.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Feb  5 01:04:25 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 02:04:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902040258320.67536@frieza.hoshinet.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAC20D2O61=AC_opfd-iVyiwfNsSDKeRu4S4SLqsyk_ccp86xPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.ef751030-3bb2-4d5c-9c75-5ed8c0610df6@mail.outlook.com>
 <20190204062522.GA78675@server.rulingia.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902040258320.67536@frieza.hoshinet.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902050139460.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Steve Nickolas wrote:

> I think the term is "Embrace, Extend, Exterminate" <dalek.jpg>

I heard it as "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish"; witness their attempt to take 
over PPP (which eventually had to accommodate their "extensions"), and 
Usenet before that, which thankfully failed, because they wanted a central 
authority.  How the hell do you think that Usenet flourished?  It was an 
utter anarchy, that's why!  And the marketoid control-freaks hated it...

If you look carefully at PPP, you will see certain negotiations which ∆
simply don't belong at that level (DNS etc).  Cough MS/CHAP cough...

If you want to talk PPP to an NT server, well, you'd better be prepared to 
accommodate their "extensions".

And to those bods who think we're bashing M$, well, there might be a 
damned good reason for it (some of us here go back a *long* time, so you 
might have to brush up on your history, and grow out of your short pants).

-- Dave, who used to be known as "Fowler Ware" on aus.flame

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Feb  5 01:39:09 2019
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 10:39:09 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902040258320.67536@frieza.hoshinet.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAC20D2O61=AC_opfd-iVyiwfNsSDKeRu4S4SLqsyk_ccp86xPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.ef751030-3bb2-4d5c-9c75-5ed8c0610df6@mail.outlook.com>
 <20190204062522.GA78675@server.rulingia.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.02.1902040258320.67536@frieza.hoshinet.org>
Message-ID: <d459a58b-5648-4a66-d56c-8435ee0e637d@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2019-02-04 2:59 AM, Steve Nickolas wrote:
> On Mon, 4 Feb 2019, Peter Jeremy wrote:
> 
>> On 2019-Feb-03 15:58:39 -0500, Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>>> Portability was designed as an >>import<< idea, and they tried to
>>> keep you
>>> from exporting by getting you to use 'value add.'
>>
>> This is definitely the approach used by FSF/GNU - witness gcc and bash.
> 
> I think the term is "Embrace, Extend, Exterminate" <dalek.jpg>

Never heard that one.

A Dalek would have a lot of trouble with the Embrace part.

> 
> -uso.
> 


From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Feb  5 03:08:37 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 09:08:37 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <ADFDF14544A65F35.ef751030-3bb2-4d5c-9c75-5ed8c0610df6@mail.outlook.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040722160.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20190203213907.GA6142@eureka.lemis.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1902040849060.64931@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAC20D2O61=AC_opfd-iVyiwfNsSDKeRu4S4SLqsyk_ccp86xPw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.ef751030-3bb2-4d5c-9c75-5ed8c0610df6@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <80270aa5-090d-445a-0476-51bb014eb791@bitsavers.org>



On 2/3/19 7:57 PM, Jason Stevens wrote:

> What would be the portable OS to rule them all?

TOPS-20 re-written in Mesa

That should make some people's heads explode.

The technology was there..




From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue Feb  5 06:29:47 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  4 Feb 2019 15:29:47 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
Message-ID: <20190204202947.69A4818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Grant Taylor

    > I'm not quite sure what you mean by naming a node vs network interface.

Does one name (in the generic high-level sense of the term 'name'; e.g. an
'address' is a name for a unit of main memory) apply to the node (host) no
matter how many interfaces it has, or where it is/moves in the network? If so,
that name names the node. If not...

    > But I do know for a fact that in IPv4, IP addresses belonged to the
    > system.

No. Multi-homed hosts in IPv4 had multiple addresses. (There are all sorts
of kludges out there now, e.g. a single IP address shared by a pool of
servers, precisely because the set of entity classes in IPvN - hosts,
interfaces, etc - and namespaces for them were not rich enough for the
things that people actually wanted to do - e.g. have a pool of servers.)

Ignore what term(s) anyone uses, and apply the 'quack/walk' test - how is
it used, and what can it do?

    > I don't understand what you mean by using "names" for "path selection".

Names (in the generic sense above) used by the path selection mechanism
(routing protocols do path selection).

    > That's probably why I don't understand how routes are allocated by a
    > naming authority.

They aren't. But the path selection system can't aggregate information (e.g.
routes) about multiple connected entities into a single item (to make the path
selection scale, in a large network like the Internet) if the names the path
selection system uses for them (i.e. addresses, NSAP's, whatever) are
allocated by several different naming authorities, and thus bear no
relationship to one another.

E.g. if my house's street address is 123 North Street, and the house next door's
address is 456 South Street, and 124 North Street is on the other side of town,
maps (i.e. the data used by a path selection algorithm to decide how to get from
A to B in the road network) aren't going to be very compact.

	Noel

From cbbrowne at gmail.com  Tue Feb  5 06:53:27 2019
From: cbbrowne at gmail.com (Christopher Browne)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 15:53:27 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Software Archeology: QED
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5XOmK7gRztbdZHQ2DgTY-ke9OykrSmNHuq7G7d=EpNUZQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry to drop in on the thread a bit late, and, strictly speaking, not
(according to headers) connected to the thread; I am well acquainted
with David Tilbrook, who is sadly not doing too well; it is not
surprising that Leah Neukirchen was unable to get a hold of him as he
hasn't been using email for some number of years > 1, and is
definitely not programming.

Hugh Redelmeier and I are looking into trying to do some preservation
of his QEF toolset that included the QED port.

Neither Hugh nor I are ourselves QED users; I'm about 30 years into my
Emacs learning curve, albeit using Remacs (the Rust implementation)
lately, while Hugh maintains JOVE to the extent to which it remains
maintained.  http://www.cs.toronto.edu/pub/hugh/jove-dev/
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"

From bakul at bitblocks.com  Tue Feb  5 07:13:17 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 13:13:17 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <20190204202947.69A4818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190204202947.69A4818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <2CFCAF1D-9EEC-43EB-AEC5-D58C30C5D923@bitblocks.com>

On Feb 4, 2019, at 12:29 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> From: Grant Taylor
> 
>> I'm not quite sure what you mean by naming a node vs network interface.
> 
> Does one name (in the generic high-level sense of the term 'name'; e.g. an
> 'address' is a name for a unit of main memory) apply to the node (host) no
> matter how many interfaces it has, or where it is/moves in the network? If so,
> that name names the node. If not...

Xerox Network System (XNS) also had this property. A node had a
unique 48 bit address and each network had a unique 32 bit address.
Absolute host numbering meant you could move a host to another
network easily. IDP packet layout:


{checksum(2), length(2),
 transport ctl(1), packet type(1),
 dst net(4), dst host(6), dst socket(2),
 src net(4), src host(6), src socket(2),
 transport data(0 to 456), pad(0 to 1 byte)
}

IDP is @layer 3, same as IPv4 or IPv6.

From clemc at ccc.com  Tue Feb  5 07:34:16 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 16:34:16 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <2CFCAF1D-9EEC-43EB-AEC5-D58C30C5D923@bitblocks.com>
References: <20190204202947.69A4818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <2CFCAF1D-9EEC-43EB-AEC5-D58C30C5D923@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PEQRMo1axEXpu7FAw1M9nUTPNHR7XrhXZN+zdhNLx9gg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 4:23 PM Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:

> On Feb 4, 2019, at 12:29 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Grant Taylor
> >
> >> I'm not quite sure what you mean by naming a node vs network interface.
> >
> > Does one name (in the generic high-level sense of the term 'name'; e.g.
> an
> > 'address' is a name for a unit of main memory) apply to the node (host)
> no
> > matter how many interfaces it has, or where it is/moves in the network?
> If so,
> > that name names the node. If not...
>
> Xerox Network System (XNS) also had this property. A node had a
> unique 48 bit address and each network had a unique 32 bit address.
> Absolute host numbering meant you could move a host to another
> network easily. IDP packet layout
>

Yeah, at the time, MetCalfe had the advantage of seeing what NCP and IP had
already learned.   We used to say in hindsight, Ethernet had too many
address bits and IP not enough.    So Noel and team invented ARP ;-)

Clem
ᐧ
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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Tue Feb  5 09:42:08 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2019 18:42:08 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
Message-ID: <201902042342.x14Ng8Q2023252@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> Ken wrote ... ed(before regexp ed)

Actually Ken wrote a regexp qed (for Multics) before he wrote ed.
He wrote about it here, before the birth of Unix:
Programming Techniques: Regular expression search algorithm 
Ken Thompson 
June 1968 Communications of the ACM: Volume 11 Issue 6, June 1968 

This is the nondetermistic regexp recognizer that's been used 
ever since. Amusingly a reviewer for Computing Reviews panned
the article on the grounds that everybody already knew how to
write a deterministic recognizer that runs in linear time.
There's no use for this slower program. What the reviewer failed
to observe is that it may take time exponential in the size of
the regexp (and ditto for space) to make such a recognizer.
In real life for a one-shot recognizer that can easily be the
dominant cost.

The problem of exponential construction time arose in Al Aho's
egrep. I was an early adopter--for the calendar(1) daemon. The
daemon generated a date recognizer that accepted most any
(American style) date. The regular expresssions were a couple
of hundred bytes long, full of alternations. Aho was chagrinned
to learn that it took about 30 seconds to make a recognizer
that would be used for less than a second. That led Al to the
wonderful invention of a lazily-constructed recognizer that
would only construct the states that were actually visited
during recognition. At last a really linear-time algorithm!

This is one of my favorite examples of the synergy of having
sytems builders and theoreticians together in one small 
department.

Doug

From lm at mcvoy.com  Tue Feb  5 13:49:28 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 19:49:28 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Ken Thompson!
In-Reply-To: <201902042342.x14Ng8Q2023252@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201902042342.x14Ng8Q2023252@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <20190205034928.GK6420@mcvoy.com>

On Mon, Feb 04, 2019 at 06:42:08PM -0500, Doug McIlroy wrote:
> This is one of my favorite examples of the synergy of having
> sytems builders and theoreticians together in one small 
> department.

Amen to that.  One of my profs was Udi Manber, a super deep theory guy.
I dragged him into systems and he did great.

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Wed Feb  6 04:01:23 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 11:01:23 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <20190204202947.69A4818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190204202947.69A4818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <896294eb-44c0-4fed-0436-37f087611c59@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 02/04/2019 01:29 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
> Does one name (in the generic high-level sense of the term 'name'; 
> e.g. an 'address' is a name for a unit of main memory) apply to the node 
> (host) no matter how many interfaces it has, or where it is/moves in 
> the network? If so, that name names the node. If not...

The vagaries of multi-homed hosts make the answer more complicated.

I generally think that a host name applies to the host, no matter how 
many interfaces it has, or where it is / moves in the network.  But 
that's the "host name".

There are other names, like service names, that apply to a service and 
can (re)pointed to any desired back end host name at any given time.

I usually think that host names should resolve to all IPs that are bound 
to a host.  I then rely on the DNS server to apply some optimization 
when possible about which IP is returned first based on the client's IP. 
  I also depend on clients preferring IPs in the directly attached 
network segment(s).

> No. Multi-homed hosts in IPv4 had multiple addresses. (There are all sorts 
> of kludges out there now, e.g. a single IP address shared by a pool of 
> servers, precisely because the set of entity classes in IPvN - hosts, 
> interfaces, etc - and namespaces for them were not rich enough for the 
> things that people actually wanted to do - e.g. have a pool of servers.)

Please allow me to clarify.

First, I'm excluding load balancers or similar techniques that spread an 
IP out across multiple back end servers.  Save for saying that I'd argue 
that such an IP belongs to the load balancer, not the back end server. 
That aside.

Multi-homed IPv4 hosts (all that I've tested) usually allow traffic to a 
local IP to come in on any interface, even if it's not the interface 
that the IPv4 address is bound to.

Take the following host:

+---+   +-----------------+   +---+
| A +---+ eth0   B   eth1 +---+ C |
+---+   +-----------------+   +---+

Even if B has IPv4 forwarding disabled, A will very likely be able to 
talk to B via the IPv4 address bound to eth1.  Likewise C can talk to B 
using the IPv4 address bound to eth0.

My understanding is that IPv6 changes this paredigm to be explicitly the 
opposite.  If B has IPv6 forwarding disabled, A can't talk to B via the 
IPv6 address bound to eth1.  Nor can C talk to B via the IPv6 address 
bound to eth0.

That's why I was saying that the IPv4 addresses on eth0 and eth1 
belonged to the OS running on B, not the specific interfaces.

> Ignore what term(s) anyone uses, and apply the 'quack/walk' test - 
> how is it used, and what can it do?

I will have to test this when time permits.

But the above matches how I remember the duck quacking and walking.

> Names (in the generic sense above) used by the path selection mechanism 
> (routing protocols do path selection).
> 
> They aren't. But the path selection system can't aggregate information 
> (e.g.  routes) about multiple connected entities into a single item (to 
> make the path selection scale, in a large network like the Internet) 
> if the names the path selection system uses for them (i.e. addresses, 
> NSAP's, whatever) are allocated by several different naming authorities, 
> and thus bear no relationship to one another.
> 
> E.g. if my house's street address is 123 North Street, and the house next 
> door's address is 456 South Street, and 124 North Street is on the other 
> side of town, maps (i.e. the data used by a path selection algorithm to 
> decide how to get from A to B in the road network) aren't going to be 
> very compact.

Agreed.  The number of routes / prefixes and the paths to get to them 
has been exploding for quite a while now.  I think the IPv4 Default Free 
Zone is approaching 800,000 routes / paths.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org  Wed Feb  6 08:14:22 2019
From: dfawcus+lists-tuhs at employees.org (Derek Fawcus)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2019 22:14:22 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] IP weak/strong host model (was Re: OSI stack (Was: Posters))
In-Reply-To: <896294eb-44c0-4fed-0436-37f087611c59@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190204202947.69A4818C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <896294eb-44c0-4fed-0436-37f087611c59@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20190205221422.GA24750@bugle.employees.org>

On Tue, Feb 05, 2019 at 11:01:23AM -0700, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> 
> Multi-homed IPv4 hosts (all that I've tested) usually allow traffic to a 
> local IP to come in on any interface, even if it's not the interface 
> that the IPv4 address is bound to.
> 
> Take the following host:
> 
> +---+   +-----------------+   +---+
> | A +---+ eth0   B   eth1 +---+ C |
> +---+   +-----------------+   +---+
> 
> Even if B has IPv4 forwarding disabled, A will very likely be able to 
> talk to B via the IPv4 address bound to eth1.  Likewise C can talk to B 
> using the IPv4 address bound to eth0.

This is generally referred to as the weak host model (or End System),
as opposed to the strong host model.  See RFC 1122, sect 3.3.4.2.

> My understanding is that IPv6 changes this paredigm to be explicitly the 
> opposite.  If B has IPv6 forwarding disabled, A can't talk to B via the 
> IPv6 address bound to eth1.  Nor can C talk to B via the IPv6 address 
> bound to eth0.

That is not my understanding.  Either protocol can use either model in
a given system.  In theory it could even differ depending upon configurations.

Most systems I've worked on have used the weak model, but that is largely,
because they were routers, and looked up destinations in a FIB (or RIB)
before (or as well as) considering interface addresses.

Some OS's I've used followed the weak scheme, some followed the strong
scheme.

The following suggests that Linux defaults to weak, and that BSDs
default to strong; I've never tested that BSD case, but from memory
OSX (xnu) defaults to weak.

https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/258810/linux-source-routing-strong-end-system-model-strong-host-model

DF

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Feb  7 03:16:24 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 10:16:24 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfq5PM9jFEi9=geC+CTnveXs5CprN7b+ku+s+FYzw1yQBw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfq5PM9jFEi9=geC+CTnveXs5CprN7b+ku+s+FYzw1yQBw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfp8qHwFRno253gKAtKoX9iFz8W3neGMhrokKrWr+dN3OA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 8:43 PM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019, 8:03 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu wrote:
>
>>     > From: Warner Losh
>>
>>     > a bunch of OSI/ISO network stack posters (thank goodness that didn't
>>     > become standard, woof!)
>>
>> Why?
>>
>
> Posters like this :). OSI was massively over specified...
>

oops. Hit the list limit.

Posters like this:

https://people.freebsd.org/~imp/20190203_215836.jpg

which show just how over-specified it was. I also worked at The Wollongong
Group back in the early 90's and it was a total dog on the SysV 386
machines that we were trying to demo it on. A total and unbelievable PITA
to set it up, and crappy performance once we got it going. Almost bad
enough that we didn't show it at the trade show we were going to....  And
that was just the lower layers of the stack plus basic name service. x.400
email addresses were also somewhat overly verbose. In many ways, it was a
classic second system effect because they were trying to fix everything
they thought was wrong with TCP/IP at the time without really, truly
knowing the differences between actual problems and mere annoyances and how
to properly weight the severity of the issue in coming up with their
solutions.

So x.400 vs smtp mail addresses:
"G=Warner;S=Losh;O=WarnerLoshConsulting;PRMD=bsdimp;A=comcast;C=us" vis "
imp at bsdimp.com"

(assuming I got all the weird bits of the x.400 address right, it's been a
long time and google had no good examples on the first page I could just
steal...) The x.400 addresses were so unwieldy that a directory service was
added on top of them x.500, which was every bit as baroque IIRC.

TP4 might not have been that bad, but all the stuff above it was kinda
crazy...

Warner
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From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Feb  7 03:23:08 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 09:23:08 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfp8qHwFRno253gKAtKoX9iFz8W3neGMhrokKrWr+dN3OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfq5PM9jFEi9=geC+CTnveXs5CprN7b+ku+s+FYzw1yQBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfp8qHwFRno253gKAtKoX9iFz8W3neGMhrokKrWr+dN3OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190206172308.GI20698@mcvoy.com>

On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 10:16:24AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
> In many ways, it was a
> classic second system effect because they were trying to fix everything
> they thought was wrong with TCP/IP at the time without really, truly
> knowing the differences between actual problems and mere annoyances and how
> to properly weight the severity of the issue in coming up with their
> solutions.

Perfectly stated.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  7 03:49:13 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  6 Feb 2019 12:49:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
Message-ID: <20190206174913.E518318C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 10:16:24AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:

    > In many ways, it was a classic second system effect because they were
    > trying to fix everything they thought was wrong with TCP/IP at the time

I'm not sure this part is accurate: the two efforts were contemporaneous; and
my impression was they were trying to design the next step in networking, based
on _their own_ analysis of what was needed.

    > without really, truly knowing the differences between actual problems
    > and mere annoyances and how to properly weight the severity of the issue
    > in coming up with their solutions.

This is I think true, but then again, TCP/IP fell into some of those holes
too: fragmentation for one (although the issue there was unforseen problems in
doing it, not so much in it not being a real issue), all the 'unused' fields
in the IP and TCP headers for things that never got really got
used/implemented (Type of Service, Urgent, etc).

`	 Noel

From paul.winalski at gmail.com  Thu Feb  7 04:22:08 2019
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 13:22:08 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <20190206174913.E518318C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190206174913.E518318C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VQ18owDCwCuiHX8Ns8YsK6Q2c6eqtQP1FSDkntonTBKVg@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/6/19, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>     > On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 10:16:24AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>     > In many ways, it was a classic second system effect because they were
>     > trying to fix everything they thought was wrong with TCP/IP at the time
>
> I'm not sure this part is accurate: the two efforts were contemporaneous; and
> my impression was they were trying to design the next step in networking, based
> on _their own_ analysis of what was needed.

That's my recollection as well.  The OSI effort was dominated by the
European telcos, nearly all of which were government-run monopolies.
They were as much (if not more) interested in protecting their own
turf as in developing the next step in networking.  A lot of the
complexity came from the desire to be everything to everybody.  As is
often the case, the result was being nothing to nobody.

Phase V of DEC's networking product (DECnet) supported X.25 as an
alternative to DEC's proprietary transport/routing layer.  I had to
install this on one of our VAXen so we could test DECmail, our
forthcoming X.400 product.  I remember X.25 being excessively
complicated and a bear to set up compared to Phase IV DECnet (the
proprietary protocol stack).

-Paul W.

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Thu Feb  7 06:47:15 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 13:47:15 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <20190206174913.E518318C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190206174913.E518318C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBuLv+62LKknOKAYxCBwLBF2zBJ8TLTXAqnHGekGgAPFA@mail.gmail.com>

At risk of inciting some inflammation I think TCP was a success because of
BSD/UNIX rather than its own merits.  Moving the stack into the kernel,
therefore not requiring elaborate external communications controllers (like
IBM's VTAM, predecessors, and other vendor networking approaches that
existed since the '60s), and piggybacking on the success of UNIX and then
"open systems" cemented victory.  It has basically been made to work at
scale, the same way gasoline engines have been made to work in automobiles.

There were protocols that fit better in the era like DeltaT with a simpler
state machine and connection handling.  Then there was a mad dash of
protocol development in the mid to late ‘80s that were measured by various
metrics to outperform TCP in practical and theoretical space.  Some of
these seemed quite nice like XTP and are still in use in niche defense
applications.

Positive, rather than negative acknowledgement has aged well as computers
got more powerful (the sender can pretty well predict loss when it hasn't
gotten an ACK back and opportunistically retransmit).  But RF people do
weird things that violate end to end principle on cable modems and radios
to try and minimize transmissions.

One thing I think that is missing in my contemporary modern software
developers is a willingness to dig down and solve problems at the right
level.  People do clownish things like write overlay filesystems in garbage
collected languages.  Google's QUIC is a fine example of foolishness.  I am
mortified that is genuinely being considered for the HTTP 3 standard.  But
I guess we've entered the era where enough people have retired that the
lower layers are approached with mysticism and deemed unable and unsuitable
to change.  So the layering will continue until eventually things topple
over like the garbage pile in the movie Idiocracy.

Since the discussion meandered to the distinction of path
selection/routing.. for provider level networks, label switching to this
day makes a lot more sense IMO.. figure out a path virtual circuit that can
cut through each hop with a small flow table instead of trying to
coagulate, propagate routes from a massive address space that has to fit in
an expensive CAM and buffer and forward packets at each hop.

Regards,
Kevin

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 10:49 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 10:16:24AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote:
>
>     > In many ways, it was a classic second system effect because they were
>     > trying to fix everything they thought was wrong with TCP/IP at the
> time
>
> I'm not sure this part is accurate: the two efforts were contemporaneous;
> and
> my impression was they were trying to design the next step in networking,
> based
> on _their own_ analysis of what was needed.
>
>     > without really, truly knowing the differences between actual problems
>     > and mere annoyances and how to properly weight the severity of the
> issue
>     > in coming up with their solutions.
>
> This is I think true, but then again, TCP/IP fell into some of those holes
> too: fragmentation for one (although the issue there was unforseen
> problems in
> doing it, not so much in it not being a real issue), all the 'unused'
> fields
> in the IP and TCP headers for things that never got really got
> used/implemented (Type of Service, Urgent, etc).
>
> `        Noel
>
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From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Thu Feb  7 08:58:38 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 15:58:38 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] more/BSD
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBLn7h6yHMQBUhbac91RWyAOsDEoYxMWfA=n9cRxyWTZA@mail.gmail.com>

I have a hungry hp300.  Does anyone have Mt Xinu's creation, more/BSD, archived?

Regards,
Kevin

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  7 09:18:52 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  6 Feb 2019 18:18:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
Message-ID: <20190206231852.5B33018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Kevin Bowling

    > I think TCP was a success because of BSD/UNIX rather than its own
    > merits.

Nope. The principle reason for TCP/IP's success was that it got there first,
and established a user community first. That advantage then fed back, to
increase the lead.

Communication protocols aren't like editors/OS's/yadda-yadda. E.g. I use
Epsilon - but the fact that few others do isn't a problem/issue for me. On the
other hand, if I designed, implemented and personally adopted the world's best
communication protocol... so what? There'd be nobody to talk to.

That's just _one_ of the ways that communication systems are fundamentally
different from other information systems.

	Noel

From ggm at algebras.org  Thu Feb  7 09:37:57 2019
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 09:37:57 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfp8qHwFRno253gKAtKoX9iFz8W3neGMhrokKrWr+dN3OA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190203150237.A869418C07A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CANCZdfq5PM9jFEi9=geC+CTnveXs5CprN7b+ku+s+FYzw1yQBw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfp8qHwFRno253gKAtKoX9iFz8W3neGMhrokKrWr+dN3OA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn2eYhD++5DLzMRqo44WGK5_ki598_4RVVWof2A_TF_v1A@mail.gmail.com>

Alive and well in LDAP as a syntactic form. So, strongly alive in
functional systems worldwide, and in X.509 certificates.

As a typed entity in email addresses? NOPE.

-G

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 3:17 AM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 4, 2019 at 8:43 PM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 3, 2019, 8:03 AM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu wrote:
>>>
>>>     > From: Warner Losh
>>>
>>>     > a bunch of OSI/ISO network stack posters (thank goodness that didn't
>>>     > become standard, woof!)
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>>
>> Posters like this :). OSI was massively over specified...
>
>
> oops. Hit the list limit.
>
> Posters like this:
>
> https://people.freebsd.org/~imp/20190203_215836.jpg
>
> which show just how over-specified it was. I also worked at The Wollongong Group back in the early 90's and it was a total dog on the SysV 386 machines that we were trying to demo it on. A total and unbelievable PITA to set it up, and crappy performance once we got it going. Almost bad enough that we didn't show it at the trade show we were going to....  And that was just the lower layers of the stack plus basic name service. x.400 email addresses were also somewhat overly verbose. In many ways, it was a classic second system effect because they were trying to fix everything they thought was wrong with TCP/IP at the time without really, truly knowing the differences between actual problems and mere annoyances and how to properly weight the severity of the issue in coming up with their solutions.
>
> So x.400 vs smtp mail addresses: "G=Warner;S=Losh;O=WarnerLoshConsulting;PRMD=bsdimp;A=comcast;C=us" vis "imp at bsdimp.com"
>
> (assuming I got all the weird bits of the x.400 address right, it's been a long time and google had no good examples on the first page I could just steal...) The x.400 addresses were so unwieldy that a directory service was added on top of them x.500, which was every bit as baroque IIRC.
>
> TP4 might not have been that bad, but all the stuff above it was kinda crazy...
>
> Warner

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Thu Feb  7 09:40:24 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 16:40:24 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <20190206231852.5B33018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190206231852.5B33018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtALSJ3ZnrGXu4TtK-FrTfy0b6G0cMd67+jpGQOG+GwMaA@mail.gmail.com>

Seems like a case of winners write the history books.  There were
corporate and public access networks long before TCP was set in stone
as a dominant protocol.  Most F500 were interchanging on SNA into the
1990s.  And access networks like Tymnet, etc to talk to others.

TCP, coupled with the rise of UNIX and the free wheel sharing of BSD
code, are what made the people to talk to.

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 4:19 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>     > From: Kevin Bowling
>
>     > I think TCP was a success because of BSD/UNIX rather than its own
>     > merits.
>
> Nope. The principle reason for TCP/IP's success was that it got there first,
> and established a user community first. That advantage then fed back, to
> increase the lead.
>
> Communication protocols aren't like editors/OS's/yadda-yadda. E.g. I use
> Epsilon - but the fact that few others do isn't a problem/issue for me. On the
> other hand, if I designed, implemented and personally adopted the world's best
> communication protocol... so what? There'd be nobody to talk to.
>
> That's just _one_ of the ways that communication systems are fundamentally
> different from other information systems.
>
>         Noel

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Feb  7 09:52:57 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 15:52:57 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtALSJ3ZnrGXu4TtK-FrTfy0b6G0cMd67+jpGQOG+GwMaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190206231852.5B33018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAK7dMtALSJ3ZnrGXu4TtK-FrTfy0b6G0cMd67+jpGQOG+GwMaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190206235257.GU20698@mcvoy.com>

On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 04:40:24PM -0700, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> Seems like a case of winners write the history books.  There were
> corporate and public access networks long before TCP was set in stone
> as a dominant protocol.  Most F500 were interchanging on SNA into the
> 1990s.  And access networks like Tymnet, etc to talk to others.

Yeah, but those were all tied to some vendor.  TCP/IP was the first
wide spread networking stack that you could get from a pile of different
vendors, Sun, Dec, SGI, IBM's AIX, every kernel supported it.   System V
was late to the party, Lachman bought the rights to Convergent's STREAMs
based TCP/IP stack and had a tidy business for a while selling that stack
to lots of places.  It was an awful stack, I know because I ported it to
a super computer and then to SCO's UNIX.  When Sun switched to a System
Vr4 kernel, they bought it in some crazy bad deal and tried to use it
in Solaris.  That lead to the tcp latency benchmark in lmbench because
Oracle's clustered database ran like shit on Slowaris and I traced it
down to their distributed lock manager and then whittled that code
down to lat_tcp.c.  Sun eventually dumped that stack and went with
Mentat's code and tuned that back up.  Sun actually dumped the socket
code and went just with STREAMs interfaces but was forced to bring
back sockets.  Socket's aren't great but they won and there is no
turning back.

> TCP, coupled with the rise of UNIX and the free wheel sharing of BSD
> code, are what made the people to talk to.

BSD wasn't free until much later than TCP/IP.  TCP/IP was developed in
the 1970's.

http://www.securenet.net/members/shartley/history/tcp_ip.htm

https://www.livinginternet.com/i/ii_tcpip.htm

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  7 10:02:55 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  6 Feb 2019 19:02:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
Message-ID: <20190207000255.E1F1318C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Kevin Bowling

    > Seems like a case of winners write the history books.

Hey, I'm just trying to pass on my best understanding as I saw it at the time,
and in retrospect. If you're not interested, I'm happy to stop.

    > There were corporate and public access networks long before TCP was set
    > in stone as a dominant protocol.

Sure, there were lots of alternatives (BITNET, HEPNET, SPAN, CSNET, along with
commercial systems like TYMNET and TELENET, along with a host of others whose
names now escape me). And that's just the US; Europe had an alphabet soup of its
own.

But _very_ early on (1 Jan 1983), DARPA made all their fundees (which included
all the top CS departments across the US) convert to TCP/IP. (NCP was turned
off on the ARPANET,and everyone was forced to switch over, or get off the
network.) A couple of other things went for TCP/IP too (e.g. NSF's
super-computer network). A Federal ad hoc inter-departmental committee called
the FRICC moved others (e.g. NASA and DoE) in the direction of TCP/IP,
too.

That's what created the large user community that eventually drove all the
others out of business. (Metcalfe's Law.)

    Noel

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Thu Feb  7 10:04:06 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 17:04:06 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <20190206235257.GU20698@mcvoy.com>
References: <20190206231852.5B33018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAK7dMtALSJ3ZnrGXu4TtK-FrTfy0b6G0cMd67+jpGQOG+GwMaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20190206235257.GU20698@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtC3D3EZpUHnHii898miMxLtrO=ZTM0R=K_nkGqejsOzEg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 4:52 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 04:40:24PM -0700, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> > Seems like a case of winners write the history books.  There were
> > corporate and public access networks long before TCP was set in stone
> > as a dominant protocol.  Most F500 were interchanging on SNA into the
> > 1990s.  And access networks like Tymnet, etc to talk to others.
>
> Yeah, but those were all tied to some vendor.  TCP/IP was the first
> wide spread networking stack that you could get from a pile of different
> vendors, Sun, Dec, SGI, IBM's AIX, every kernel supported it.   System V
> was late to the party, Lachman bought the rights to Convergent's STREAMs
> based TCP/IP stack and had a tidy business for a while selling that stack
> to lots of places.  It was an awful stack, I know because I ported it to
> a super computer and then to SCO's UNIX.  When Sun switched to a System
> Vr4 kernel, they bought it in some crazy bad deal and tried to use it
> in Solaris.  That lead to the tcp latency benchmark in lmbench because
> Oracle's clustered database ran like shit on Slowaris and I traced it
> down to their distributed lock manager and then whittled that code
> down to lat_tcp.c.  Sun eventually dumped that stack and went with
> Mentat's code and tuned that back up.  Sun actually dumped the socket
> code and went just with STREAMs interfaces but was forced to bring
> back sockets.  Socket's aren't great but they won and there is no
> turning back.
>
> > TCP, coupled with the rise of UNIX and the free wheel sharing of BSD
> > code, are what made the people to talk to.
>
> BSD wasn't free until much later than TCP/IP.  TCP/IP was developed in
> the 1970's.
>
> http://www.securenet.net/members/shartley/history/tcp_ip.htm
>
> https://www.livinginternet.com/i/ii_tcpip.htm

This is where I am out of my depth, was it a "success" before the
mid-late '80s as some dominant force?  My reading is no outside
universities with UNIX/BSD.  The meteoric success came a bit later in
the '80s with NSFNET, the rise of Cisco, and then the internet
exchange culture in the early '90s CIX, PAIX, Metropolitan Fiber
Systems etc got us to today and off Bell System stuff.

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Thu Feb  7 10:11:08 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 17:11:08 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <20190207000255.E1F1318C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190207000255.E1F1318C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBbQF00PP9ES2jWPBseg7pdBqJPsP-w8y32DugQE+Espg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Feb 6, 2019 at 5:03 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
>     > From: Kevin Bowling
>
>     > Seems like a case of winners write the history books.
>
> Hey, I'm just trying to pass on my best understanding as I saw it at the time,
> and in retrospect. If you're not interested, I'm happy to stop.

There's nothing personal.  It just doesn't mesh with what I understand
from non-UNIX first party sources in some mainframe, telco, and
networking books.  If I'm wrong I'll gladly update my opinion.  I
wasn't there.  I try to incorporate other sources outside UNIX into my
readings on computer history.  Maybe I see connections where there
were none, or they really were just parallel universes that didn't
influence each other.

>     > There were corporate and public access networks long before TCP was set
>     > in stone as a dominant protocol.
>
> Sure, there were lots of alternatives (BITNET, HEPNET, SPAN, CSNET, along with
> commercial systems like TYMNET and TELENET, along with a host of others whose
> names now escape me). And that's just the US; Europe had an alphabet soup of its
> own.
>
> But _very_ early on (1 Jan 1983), DARPA made all their fundees (which included
> all the top CS departments across the US) convert to TCP/IP. (NCP was turned
> off on the ARPANET,and everyone was forced to switch over, or get off the
> network.) A couple of other things went for TCP/IP too (e.g. NSF's
> super-computer network). A Federal ad hoc inter-departmental committee called
> the FRICC moved others (e.g. NASA and DoE) in the direction of TCP/IP,
> too.
>
> That's what created the large user community that eventually drove all the
> others out of business. (Metcalfe's Law.)

Is it fair to say most of the non-gov systems were UNIX during the
next handful of years?  I am asking for clarification, not a leading
question.

Regards,
Kevin

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  7 10:45:57 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  6 Feb 2019 19:45:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
Message-ID: <20190207004557.99A8118C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Larry McVoy

    > TCP/IP was the first wide spread networking stack that you could get
    > from a pile of different vendors, Sun, Dec, SGI, IBM's AIX, every kernel
    > supported it.

Well, not quite - X.25 was also available on just about everything. TCP/IP's
big advantage over X.25 was that it worked well with LAN's, whereas X.25 was
pretty specific to WAN's.

Although the wide range of TCP/IP implementations available, as well as the
multi-vendor support, and its not being tied to any one vendor, was a big
help. (Remember, I said the "_principle_ reason for TCP/IP's success"
[emphasis added] was the size of the community - other factors, such as these,
did play a role.)

The wide range of implementations was in part a result of DARPA's early
switch-over - every machine out there that was connected to the early Internet
(in the 80s) had to get a TCP/IP, and DARPA paid for a lot of them (e.g. the
BBN one for VAX Unix that Berkeley took on). The TOPS-20 one came from that
source, a whole bunch of others (many now extinct, but...).  MIT did one for
MS-DOS as soon as the IBM PC came out (1981), and that spun off to a business
(FTP Software) that was quite successful for a while (Windows 95 was, IIRC,
the first uSloth product with TCP/IP built in). Etc, etc.

    Noel

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Thu Feb  7 11:03:22 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed,  6 Feb 2019 20:03:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
Message-ID: <20190207010322.DB0AA18C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Kevin Bowling

    > t just doesn't mesh with what I understand

Ah, sorry, I misunderstood your point.

Anyway, this is getting a little far afield for TUHS, so at some point it
would be better to move to the 'internet-history' list if you want to explore
it in depth. But a few more...

    > Is it fair to say most of the non-gov systems were UNIX during the next
    > handful of years?

I assume you mean 'systems running TCP/IP'? If so, I really don't know,
because for a while during that approximate period one saw many internets
which weren't connected to the Internet. (Which is why the capitalization is
important, the ill-educated morons at the AP, etc notwithstanding.) I have no
good overall sense of that community, just anecdotal (plural is not 'data').

For the ones which _were_ connected to the Internet, then prior to the advent
of the DNS, inspection of the host table file(s) would give a census. After that,
I'm not sure - I seem to recall someone did some work on a census of Internet
machines, but I forget who/were.

If you meant 'systems in general' or 'systems with networking of some sort', alas
I have even less of an idea! :-)

	Noel

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Feb  8 04:07:27 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 11:07:27 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtBuLv+62LKknOKAYxCBwLBF2zBJ8TLTXAqnHGekGgAPFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190206174913.E518318C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAK7dMtBuLv+62LKknOKAYxCBwLBF2zBJ8TLTXAqnHGekGgAPFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0572e855-9aac-337f-4f1b-66dda3839e14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

Seeing as how this is diverging from TUHS, I'd encourage replies to the 
COFF copy that I'm CCing.

On 02/06/2019 01:47 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> There were protocols that fit better in the era like DeltaT with a 
> simpler state machine and connection handling.  Then there was a mad 
> dash of protocol development in the mid to late ‘80s that were measured 
> by various metrics to outperform TCP in practical and theoretical 
> space.  Some of these seemed quite nice like XTP and are still in use in 
> niche defense applications.

$ReadingList++

> Positive, rather than negative acknowledgement has aged well as 
> computers got more powerful (the sender can pretty well predict loss 
> when it hasn't gotten an ACK back and opportunistically retransmit).  
> But RF people do weird things that violate end to end principle on cable 
> modems and radios to try and minimize transmissions.

Would you care to elaborate?

> One thing I think that is missing in my contemporary modern software 
> developers is a willingness to dig down and solve problems at the right 
> level.  People do clownish things like write overlay filesystems in 
> garbage collected languages.  Google's QUIC is a fine example of 
> foolishness.  I am mortified that is genuinely being considered for the 
> HTTP 3 standard.  But I guess we've entered the era where enough people 
> have retired that the lower layers are approached with mysticism and 
> deemed unable and unsuitable to change.  So the layering will continue 
> until eventually things topple over like the garbage pile in the movie 
> Idiocracy.

I thought one of the reasons that QUIC was UDP based instead of it's own 
transport protocol was because history has shown that the possibility 
and openness of networking is not sufficient to encourage the adoption 
of newer technologies.  Specifically the long tail of history / legacy 
has hindered the introduction of a new transport protocol.  I thought I 
remembered hearing that Google wanted to do a new transport protocol, 
but they thought that too many things would block it thus slowing down 
it's deployment.  Conversely putting QUIC on top of UDP was a minor 
compromise that allowed the benefits to be adopted sooner.

Perhaps I'm misremembering.  I did a quick 45 second search and couldn't 
find any supporting evidence.

The only thing that comes to mind is IPsec's ESP(50) and AH(51) which—as 
I understand it—are filtered too frequently because they aren't ICMP(1), 
TCP(6), or UDP(17).  Too many firewalls interfere to the point that they 
are unreliable.

> Since the discussion meandered to the distinction of path 
> selection/routing.. for provider level networks, label switching to this 
> day makes a lot more sense IMO.. figure out a path virtual circuit that 
> can cut through each hop with a small flow table instead of trying to 
> coagulate, propagate routes from a massive address space that has to fit 
> in an expensive CAM and buffer and forward packets at each hop.

I think label switching has it's advantages.  I think it also has some 
complications.

I feel like ATM, Frame Relay, and MPLS are all forms of label switching. 
  Conceptually they all operate based on a per-programed path.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From akosela at andykosela.com  Fri Feb  8 04:22:14 2019
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 12:22:14 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <0572e855-9aac-337f-4f1b-66dda3839e14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190206174913.E518318C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAK7dMtBuLv+62LKknOKAYxCBwLBF2zBJ8TLTXAqnHGekGgAPFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0572e855-9aac-337f-4f1b-66dda3839e14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <CALMnNGgimhHrCLR4sLfD3-fhhSxm45gyhfSUbDV8VMJsEqxCbA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thursday, February 7, 2019, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
wrote:

> Seeing as how this is diverging from TUHS, I'd encourage replies to the
> COFF copy that I'm CCing.
>
> On 02/06/2019 01:47 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote:
>
>> There were protocols that fit better in the era like DeltaT with a
>> simpler state machine and connection handling.  Then there was a mad dash
>> of protocol development in the mid to late ‘80s that were measured by
>> various metrics to outperform TCP in practical and theoretical space.  Some
>> of these seemed quite nice like XTP and are still in use in niche defense
>> applications.
>>
>
> $ReadingList++


XTP was/is indeed very interesting.  It was adopted by US Navy for SAFENET
and created by Greg Chesson who was active in the early UNIX community.
Not sure if we have him here on this list though.

--Andy
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From crossd at gmail.com  Fri Feb  8 04:33:05 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 13:33:05 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] [COFF]  OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <CALMnNGgimhHrCLR4sLfD3-fhhSxm45gyhfSUbDV8VMJsEqxCbA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190206174913.E518318C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAK7dMtBuLv+62LKknOKAYxCBwLBF2zBJ8TLTXAqnHGekGgAPFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0572e855-9aac-337f-4f1b-66dda3839e14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
 <CALMnNGgimhHrCLR4sLfD3-fhhSxm45gyhfSUbDV8VMJsEqxCbA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W4VDeV-hXtqd_3tBKCACT-F6s5Kya3wgEzB1=npnM-uOg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 7, 2019 at 1:22 PM Andy Kosela <akosela at andykosela.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, February 7, 2019, Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Seeing as how this is diverging from TUHS, I'd encourage replies to the
>> COFF copy that I'm CCing.
>>
>> On 02/06/2019 01:47 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote:
>>
>>> There were protocols that fit better in the era like DeltaT with a
>>> simpler state machine and connection handling.  Then there was a mad dash
>>> of protocol development in the mid to late ‘80s that were measured by
>>> various metrics to outperform TCP in practical and theoretical space.  Some
>>> of these seemed quite nice like XTP and are still in use in niche defense
>>> applications.
>>>
>>
>> $ReadingList++
>
>
> XTP was/is indeed very interesting.  It was adopted by US Navy for SAFENET
> and created by Greg Chesson who was active in the early UNIX community.
> Not sure if we have him here on this list though.
>

Sadly, Greg Chesson passed away a couple of years ago after battling cancer
for some time.

        - Dan C.
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From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Feb  8 04:50:54 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 10:50:54 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
In-Reply-To: <0572e855-9aac-337f-4f1b-66dda3839e14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <20190206174913.E518318C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAK7dMtBuLv+62LKknOKAYxCBwLBF2zBJ8TLTXAqnHGekGgAPFA@mail.gmail.com>
 <0572e855-9aac-337f-4f1b-66dda3839e14@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <20190207185054.GA20698@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 11:07:27AM -0700, Grant Taylor via TUHS wrote:
> On 02/06/2019 01:47 PM, Kevin Bowling wrote:
> >There were protocols that fit better in the era like DeltaT with a simpler
> >state machine and connection handling.?? Then there was a mad dash of
> >protocol development in the mid to late ???80s that were measured by
> >various metrics to outperform TCP in practical and theoretical space.??
> >Some of these seemed quite nice like XTP and are still in use in niche
> >defense applications.
> 
> $ReadingList++

Greg Chesson was the guy behind XTP.  I worked for him at SGI, he was a
hoot (lost him to cancer a while back).  I think I've posted this before
but here he is not long before he died (he came up to bitch about kids
these days with their shiney frameworks and new fangled languages, what's
wrong with C?)

http://mcvoy.com/lm/xtp+excavator

He was an engineer to the core, he refused to take any info from me on how
to run the machine, just sat there and figured it out.

--lm

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb  8 05:04:23 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu,  7 Feb 2019 14:04:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] OSI stack (Was: Posters)
Message-ID: <20190207190423.99CA518C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Grant Taylor via TUHS <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>

    > Seeing as how this is diverging from TUHS, I'd encourage replies to
    > the COFF copy that I'm CCing.

Can people _please_ pick either one list _or_ the other to reply to, so those
on both will stop getting two copies of every message? My mailbox is exploding!

   Noel

From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Tue Feb 12 10:04:33 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2019 19:04:33 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] "Re: [groff] modernize -T ascii rendering of opening single
 quote"
Message-ID: <201902120004.x1C04X9n044703@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

Unless my leg is being pulled, I sent that for pure amusement.
Gcc has a very open mind on the subject, using both options
in the same sentence.

-----------------------------------------------------------

> Doug wrote:
> > A diagnostic from gcc chimes in:
> > 'mktemp' is deprecated: the use of `mktemp' is dangerous; use `mkstemp'
...
> https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Quote-Characters

My impression was Doug was passing on a warning about the continued used
of mktemp(3) rather than the continued use of ASCII.

From g.branden.robinson at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 10:28:54 2019
From: g.branden.robinson at gmail.com (G. Branden Robinson)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2019 11:28:54 +1100
Subject: [TUHS] "Re: [groff] modernize -T ascii rendering of opening
 single quote"
In-Reply-To: <201902120004.x1C04X9n044703@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201902120004.x1C04X9n044703@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <20190212002851.5cuj7l2myorywwts@crack.deadbeast.net>

[looping the groff list back in]

At 2019-02-11T19:04:33-0500, Doug McIlroy wrote:
> Unless my leg is being pulled, I sent that for pure amusement.
> Gcc has a very open mind on the subject, using both options
> in the same sentence.

A truly Solomonic solution.  X-D

> > Doug wrote:
> > > A diagnostic from gcc chimes in:
> > > 'mktemp' is deprecated: the use of `mktemp' is dangerous; use `mkstemp'
> ...
> > https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/standards.html#Quote-Characters
> 
> My impression was Doug was passing on a warning about the continued used
> of mktemp(3) rather than the continued use of ASCII.

Regards,
Branden
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From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Thu Feb 14 23:14:26 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 08:14:26 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp_a_8Q2vrn7YOEhBEDXoNmv1Tu1cNv6q1o6GFwk_EyWyw@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/13/magazine/women-coding-computer-programming.html
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From finnoleary at inventati.org  Fri Feb 15 00:02:31 2019
From: finnoleary at inventati.org (Finn O'Leary)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:02:31 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <CAC0cEp_a_8Q2vrn7YOEhBEDXoNmv1Tu1cNv6q1o6GFwk_EyWyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC0cEp_a_8Q2vrn7YOEhBEDXoNmv1Tu1cNv6q1o6GFwk_EyWyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f854e5178fd8d0bf562464603e9521fa4d3eef56.camel@inventati.org>

On Thu, 2019-02-14 at 08:14 -0500, John P. Linderman wrote:

>> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/13/magazine/women-coding-computer-programming.html

This is something I noticed when I was watching the 1980s MIT
OCW videos of Sussman and Ableson teaching SICP. If you pay
attention to the glances the camera takes of the audience, it's
got a wide diversity of age-groups and genders (Of course (heh),
I don't know if that's because of the circumstances of that
particular course, or if MIT's entry requirements have changed.
I wonder if anyone here can clarify that).

-- 
- Finn
PGP fingerprint: 739B 6C5C 3DE1 33FA
"Too enough is always not much!"

From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu  Fri Feb 15 04:51:08 2019
From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 10:51:08 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <CAC0cEp_a_8Q2vrn7YOEhBEDXoNmv1Tu1cNv6q1o6GFwk_EyWyw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC0cEp_a_8Q2vrn7YOEhBEDXoNmv1Tu1cNv6q1o6GFwk_EyWyw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68aa2bf7-a854-3c52-810d-ff1babb6e705@solar.stanford.edu>

In the early days of Usenix, I used to keep track of the women. 
Initially, about 30% of the organization was female.  That dropped every 
year.  I also used to count the number of women at the Usenix 
conferences.  By the time of a large one, about 3,000 people in San 
Francisco, I counted 12 women...

On 2/14/19 5:14 AM, John P. Linderman wrote:
> https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/13/magazine/women-coding-computer-programming.html

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From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Feb 15 05:29:40 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:29:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
Message-ID: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Deborah Scherrer

    > In the early days of Usenix, I used to keep track of the women.
    > Initially, about 30% of the organization was female.  That dropped every
    > year.

Interesting. Any ideas/thoughts on what was going on, what caused that?

	     Noel

From web at loomcom.com  Fri Feb 15 05:47:18 2019
From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:47:18 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <0d7f24f7-98c2-4fb0-973b-b7cfbe91133c@www.fastmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019, at 11:30 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: Deborah Scherrer
> 
>     > In the early days of Usenix, I used to keep track of the women.
>     > Initially, about 30% of the organization was female.  That dropped every
>     > year.
> 
> Interesting. Any ideas/thoughts on what was going on, what caused that?

I have seen some interesting stories about this phenomenon. There was a piece on NPR's "Planet Money" in 2014 that offers one possible explanation that home computers in the 1980s were more commonly bought for boys than for girls, and that this eventually created an experience gap. Prior to the home computer revolution, they reason, no experience with computers was assumed when pursuing math and computer science in college, but afterward, experience with home computers was assumed, and boys had more of it than girls.

https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding

> 	     Noel

-Seth
-- 
  Seth Morabito
  Poulsbo, WA
  web at loomcom.com

From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu  Fri Feb 15 06:02:00 2019
From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:02:00 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>

There have been several studies.  As I remember, girls in school do 
indeed receive as much encouragement in computers as do males.  And 
girls do indeed have access to as many resources as males.  So the 
studies came to no conclusions.

My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor.  If 
I were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting 
into computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and 
that field.  But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that 
idea...

And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam.  She had 
many grad students of both sexes.  She says she had to practically force 
the women to stay in the field.   They would see the guys getting overly 
focused on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the 
goals of the project.  The women would get frustrated and complain to 
the professor.  She would have to convince them that the guys just did 
that, and that the women should stay on track.

I do admit, I have a husband who does that.  Personally, I have ALWAYS 
looked at computers as a tool to accomplish something grander than just 
being a computer.  But I am usually out-shouted.  ;-)


On 2/14/19 11:29 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>      > From: Deborah Scherrer
>
>      > In the early days of Usenix, I used to keep track of the women.
>      > Initially, about 30% of the organization was female.  That dropped every
>      > year.
>
> Interesting. Any ideas/thoughts on what was going on, what caused that?
>
> 	     Noel


From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Feb 15 06:30:38 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:30:38 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <20190214203038.GY26831@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 12:02:00PM -0800, Deborah Scherrer wrote:
> My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor.  If I
> were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting into
> computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and that field.
> But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that idea...

I'm decades past high school but have one kid just out of high school and
another still in.  So some conduit of info there.  And I coached hockey
at Los Gatos for a couple of years, a little more insight there.

>From what I can tell, things are pretty different.  When I was going through
high school and college, being a nerd wasn't cool, nerds didn't get anywhere
near the popular girls.  These days, the girls have figured out that the
nerds have a future so they like that.  In general, there seems to be a lot
less cliques and bullying.

I would have thought girls seeing nerds as having positives would make them
want to be part of the CS world but maybe not.

I do think, given that work is frequently a place where you can find a
partner (I found my wife, or she found me, at SGI), that it is a problem
if there isn't a good balance.  If you get 10% women then every time a
new one shows up the sharks will circle.  Not exactly a welcoming
environment.

> And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam.  She had
> many grad students of both sexes.  She says she had to practically force the
> women to stay in the field.   They would see the guys getting overly focused
> on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the goals of the
> project.  The women would get frustrated and complain to the professor.  She
> would have to convince them that the guys just did that, and that the women
> should stay on track.

That's true for specialists.  And it is a reason that CS schools should 
teach systems programming.  You really can't do well in that unless you
see the whole picture.  You can fake it for a while but eventually you
need to see the whole picture to figure out where you need to be putting
effort.  I was visiting my old systems prof in Madison and he said that
systems programming is coming back, employers like Google have been
bitching that nobody knows how to do kernel work or even think about it.

I believe it, I get "bug" reports about LMbench only to find they are
trying to benchmark a VM.  What kind of idiot tries to measure a VM?
Using microbenchmarks?  This was a CS grad student!

From jon at fourwinds.com  Fri Feb 15 06:37:51 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 12:37:51 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <201902142037.x1EKbpnR017241@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

Deborah Scherrer writes:
> There have been several studies.  As I remember, girls in school do 
> indeed receive as much encouragement in computers as do males.  And 
> girls do indeed have access to as many resources as males.  So the 
> studies came to no conclusions.
>
> My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor.  If 
> I were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting 
> into computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and 
> that field.  But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that 
> idea...
>
> And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam.  She had 
> many grad students of both sexes.  She says she had to practically force 
> the women to stay in the field.   They would see the guys getting overly 
> focused on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the 
> goals of the project.  The women would get frustrated and complain to 
> the professor.  She would have to convince them that the guys just did 
> that, and that the women should stay on track.
>
> I do admit, I have a husband who does that.  Personally, I have ALWAYS 
> looked at computers as a tool to accomplish something grander than just 
> being a computer.  But I am usually out-shouted.  ;-)

I think that many of us old folk on this list started out in a time when
getting a computer to be a computer was an accomplishment.  But I agree
that enough of that has been done that using computers as tools subservient
to larger goals is where the bulk of the work exists today.

There's a theory that sounds superficially plausible to me, which is that
women leave the field because they're more responsible than men.  The theory
is that women think more about whether a profession will provide them with
the security and stability necessary to support a family.  When women look
at STEM fields they see people being laid off, being forced to train their
outsourced replacements, and so on.  The American government sends out the
mixed messages of "we need people trained in STEM" along with "we don't care
about science".  Plus there are all of the pontifications about how AI is
going to replace many of the jobs.  So this theory says that it just doesn't
look like an attractive field to people who want stability and security, and
that women statistically want that more than men do.

Jon

From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Feb 15 08:22:24 2019
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:22:24 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <201902142037.x1EKbpnR017241@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
 <201902142037.x1EKbpnR017241@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <33ce5850-f0b5-1fa9-d459-58d4e2416e80@telegraphics.com.au>

On 2019-02-14 3:37 PM, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> Deborah Scherrer writes:
>> There have been several studies.  As I remember, girls in school do 
>> indeed receive as much encouragement in computers as do males.  And 
>> girls do indeed have access to as many resources as males.  So the 
>> studies came to no conclusions.
>>
>> My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor.  If 
>> I were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting 
>> into computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and 
>> that field.  But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that 
>> idea...
>>
>> And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam.  She had 
>> many grad students of both sexes.  She says she had to practically force 
>> the women to stay in the field.   They would see the guys getting overly 
>> focused on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the 
>> goals of the project.  The women would get frustrated and complain to 
>> the professor.  She would have to convince them that the guys just did 
>> that, and that the women should stay on track.
>>
>> I do admit, I have a husband who does that.  Personally, I have ALWAYS 
>> looked at computers as a tool to accomplish something grander than just 
>> being a computer.  But I am usually out-shouted.  ;-)
> 
> I think that many of us old folk on this list started out in a time when
> getting a computer to be a computer was an accomplishment.  But I agree
> that enough of that has been done that using computers as tools subservient
> to larger goals is where the bulk of the work exists today.
> 
> There's a theory that sounds superficially plausible to me, which is that
> women leave the field because they're more responsible than men.  The theory

I was REALLY hoping gender essentialism wouldn't be enlisted in this
thread. Oh well.

> is that women think more about whether a profession will provide them with
> the security and stability necessary to support a family.  ...
> 
> Jon
> 


From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu  Fri Feb 15 08:37:40 2019
From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 14:37:40 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <33ce5850-f0b5-1fa9-d459-58d4e2416e80@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
 <201902142037.x1EKbpnR017241@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
 <33ce5850-f0b5-1fa9-d459-58d4e2416e80@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <e1431b54-68e7-ba4d-20f0-858ac44dfa49@solar.stanford.edu>

Actually, I suspect it's just the opposite.   For example, veterinarians 
used to be entirely male.   Why, cause they made Big Bucks.  Then, as 
salaries went down, more women got into the field. Why, because they 
cared about the animals.  Now vets make something like $25K when  they 
get out of their 7-8 years of school, and they are almost all female.

I never did anything cause of the money (but then, I married very young 
and had a quite capable husband who ended up a professor at Stanford).  
At any rate, I chose my major, my grad studies, and my 2 careers cause I 
loved the fields.   Took a 45% cut in salary when I went from high tech 
to Stanford/NASA.  Didn't even think about that....


On 2/14/19 2:22 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 2019-02-14 3:37 PM, Jon Steinhart wrote:
>> Deborah Scherrer writes:
>>> There have been several studies.  As I remember, girls in school do
>>> indeed receive as much encouragement in computers as do males.  And
>>> girls do indeed have access to as many resources as males.  So the
>>> studies came to no conclusions.
>>>
>>> My personal thought is that, in high school, it's the "nerd" factor.  If
>>> I were back in high school and saw the kind of guys that are getting
>>> into computers now, I would stay a thousand miles away from them and
>>> that field.  But, alas, I don't think anyone has tried to research that
>>> idea...
>>>
>>> And/or: I have a friend who was a professor of CS in Amsterdam.  She had
>>> many grad students of both sexes.  She says she had to practically force
>>> the women to stay in the field.   They would see the guys getting overly
>>> focused on the computer details themselves, completely overlooking the
>>> goals of the project.  The women would get frustrated and complain to
>>> the professor.  She would have to convince them that the guys just did
>>> that, and that the women should stay on track.
>>>
>>> I do admit, I have a husband who does that.  Personally, I have ALWAYS
>>> looked at computers as a tool to accomplish something grander than just
>>> being a computer.  But I am usually out-shouted.  ;-)
>> I think that many of us old folk on this list started out in a time when
>> getting a computer to be a computer was an accomplishment.  But I agree
>> that enough of that has been done that using computers as tools subservient
>> to larger goals is where the bulk of the work exists today.
>>
>> There's a theory that sounds superficially plausible to me, which is that
>> women leave the field because they're more responsible than men.  The theory
> I was REALLY hoping gender essentialism wouldn't be enlisted in this
> thread. Oh well.
>
>> is that women think more about whether a profession will provide them with
>> the security and stability necessary to support a family.  ...
>>
>> Jon
>>


From akosela at andykosela.com  Fri Feb 15 09:35:16 2019
From: akosela at andykosela.com (Andy Kosela)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 17:35:16 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <e1431b54-68e7-ba4d-20f0-858ac44dfa49@solar.stanford.edu>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
 <201902142037.x1EKbpnR017241@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
 <33ce5850-f0b5-1fa9-d459-58d4e2416e80@telegraphics.com.au>
 <e1431b54-68e7-ba4d-20f0-858ac44dfa49@solar.stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <CALMnNGgwAbxOGgUA3Yz9=LXVdfPRMjgWXPje1faHRHF1qxYmqw@mail.gmail.com>

<SNIP>

Is this thread really a good place for TUHS discussion?   Maybe COFF would
be better suited for it.

And maybe the explanation why there are more men in IT is simpler than some
folks who forcefully try to create elaborate sociological theories think.
In nature males are just wired differently from females.  And that is why
they ARE different, like 1 and 0.  Otherwise they would be just one sex.
And as we know nothing can come from just one number...

--Andy
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From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Feb 15 09:40:27 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 15:40:27 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <33ce5850-f0b5-1fa9-d459-58d4e2416e80@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
 <201902142037.x1EKbpnR017241@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
 <33ce5850-f0b5-1fa9-d459-58d4e2416e80@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20190214234027.GA26831@mcvoy.com>

> > There's a theory that sounds superficially plausible to me, which is that
> > women leave the field because they're more responsible than men.  The theory
> 
> I was REALLY hoping gender essentialism wouldn't be enlisted in this
> thread. Oh well.

<rant>

Politically correct(?) thoughts that attempt to counter facts aren't
helpful to *any* discussion.

Yeah, there are always going to be people that buck the norms, that
doesn't change the fact that most members of both genders are going show
traits found in their gender.  The exceptions don't break the rules.

You might be educated by listening to what transgender people who are
on hormone therapy have to say.  MtF will tell you they lose a ton of
upper body strenght.  Hormones are a thing, backed by lots of science,
and men and women have different hormones and are, as a result, different.

You'll notice I never used the terms "better" or "worse".  Just different.
I'm all for more women in CS, if they want to be there (and the people of
CS, the dudes, have work to do to make the women want to be there).

I fully agree that both genders should be encouraged to try to succeed at
whatever they want.  To a point.  Pushing people to do something that 
they'll never be good at is mean.  Figuring if they will/won't be good
is sometimes tricky, sometimes obvious.

I just wish people wouldn't bring political correctness into discussions,
it doesn't help.  I also get that people don't like being put in neat
little boxes.  But taking away those boxes for the exceptions is not
always the right thing.  Are you fine with fire departments changing the
physical fitness rules so women can join?  As in full on join, not be put
on the radios or driving, stuff that they can do just fine, but full on
fire fighters?  I dunno about you, but 100 pound woman is not who I want
to see when my 200 body needs to be carried out of a burning building.

Rather than try and make everyone fit into the same boxes, why not sort
them into the boxes where they can excel?  If some buff woman can meet
the requirements to be a fire fighter, go for it, go her.  But don't
change the requirements so woman without the necessary strength can get
the job, that's just putting her in a position where she won't succeed.
And that's not helpful at all.

We're CS people, we know how to optimize, and I can assure you it won't
work by saying everyone is capable of everything.  

I coached roller hockey and it is the exact opposite of saying everyone
can do everything.  You learn each person's strengths and their
weaknesses, play to the strengths, figure out which weaknesses can be
turned into strengths, and leave the ones that can't in the locker room.
I've seen women at the adult level of hockey that can blow away 99%
of most men but that's an exception.  Here's the norm: the US Women's
National team practices against high school boys because they are evenly
matched, the national men's team would crush them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqJk-JEkdIo

Same thing in tennis:

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-male-professional-tennis-players-are-better-than-female-professional-ones

Putting everyone in one box is unfair to one gender or the other, depending
on the box.

</rant>

From wangude at gmail.com  Fri Feb 15 09:45:06 2019
From: wangude at gmail.com (Thomas Kellar)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 18:45:06 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <CALMnNGgwAbxOGgUA3Yz9=LXVdfPRMjgWXPje1faHRHF1qxYmqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
 <201902142037.x1EKbpnR017241@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
 <33ce5850-f0b5-1fa9-d459-58d4e2416e80@telegraphics.com.au>
 <e1431b54-68e7-ba4d-20f0-858ac44dfa49@solar.stanford.edu>
 <CALMnNGgwAbxOGgUA3Yz9=LXVdfPRMjgWXPje1faHRHF1qxYmqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADxGGnRmKyhuwsMd-xL5Z2fmeKoxcu7kVsYH+Yt4PGxBtoEB5g@mail.gmail.com>

I am learning from the discussion.  I disagree with the binary
argument.  Women and men both have personalities and brains that range
over a huge spectrum of differences. It is society that tries to force
them into particular molds.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 6:36 PM Andy Kosela  wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
> Is this thread really a good place for TUHS discussion?   Maybe COFF would be better suited for it.
>
> And maybe the explanation why there are more men in IT is simpler than some folks who forcefully try to create elaborate sociological theories think.  In nature males are just wired differently from females.  And that is why they ARE different, like 1 and 0.  Otherwise they would be just one sex.  And as we know nothing can come from just one number...
>
> --Andy

From dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu  Fri Feb 15 09:46:54 2019
From: dscherrer at solar.stanford.edu (Deborah Scherrer)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 15:46:54 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <CADxGGnRmKyhuwsMd-xL5Z2fmeKoxcu7kVsYH+Yt4PGxBtoEB5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
 <201902142037.x1EKbpnR017241@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
 <33ce5850-f0b5-1fa9-d459-58d4e2416e80@telegraphics.com.au>
 <e1431b54-68e7-ba4d-20f0-858ac44dfa49@solar.stanford.edu>
 <CALMnNGgwAbxOGgUA3Yz9=LXVdfPRMjgWXPje1faHRHF1qxYmqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADxGGnRmKyhuwsMd-xL5Z2fmeKoxcu7kVsYH+Yt4PGxBtoEB5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58ddd6ed-82e3-e64d-b564-81368dc34950@solar.stanford.edu>

Thanks, Thomas.


On 2/14/19 3:45 PM, Thomas Kellar wrote:
> I am learning from the discussion.  I disagree with the binary
> argument.  Women and men both have personalities and brains that range
> over a huge spectrum of differences. It is society that tries to force
> them into particular molds.
>
> On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 6:36 PM Andy Kosela  wrote:
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> Is this thread really a good place for TUHS discussion?   Maybe COFF would be better suited for it.
>>
>> And maybe the explanation why there are more men in IT is simpler than some folks who forcefully try to create elaborate sociological theories think.  In nature males are just wired differently from females.  And that is why they ARE different, like 1 and 0.  Otherwise they would be just one sex.  And as we know nothing can come from just one number...
>>
>> --Andy


From jon at fourwinds.com  Fri Feb 15 09:52:00 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2019 15:52:00 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Women in computing
In-Reply-To: <CADxGGnRmKyhuwsMd-xL5Z2fmeKoxcu7kVsYH+Yt4PGxBtoEB5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190214192940.ED58418C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <1b71e45e-5711-ee8d-2bc8-4ea6298311dd@solar.stanford.edu>
 <201902142037.x1EKbpnR017241@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
 <33ce5850-f0b5-1fa9-d459-58d4e2416e80@telegraphics.com.au>
 <e1431b54-68e7-ba4d-20f0-858ac44dfa49@solar.stanford.edu>
 <CALMnNGgwAbxOGgUA3Yz9=LXVdfPRMjgWXPje1faHRHF1qxYmqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADxGGnRmKyhuwsMd-xL5Z2fmeKoxcu7kVsYH+Yt4PGxBtoEB5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201902142352.x1ENq0Bp013751@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

Another interesting note on this topic.  I saw a presentation on the
Diana Project a few months ago, and it seems like it's making a real
positive difference for women in computing.  Check it out.

Without intending to set off anybody's political correctness alarms,
an interesting interesting comment from the presentation was that a
large percentage of the current crop of female computer folks are
into cryptography.  Without passing any sort of judgement on it, it
seems like those sort of puzzle-solving problems are sucking a lot
of women into CS.

Jon

From wkt at tuhs.org  Fri Feb 15 10:05:34 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 10:05:34 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] "Women" topic moved to COFF
Message-ID: <20190215000534.GA29663@minnie.tuhs.org>

All, I've locked the "Women in Computing" topic in the TUHS list
as it's not specifically Unix and liable to be contentious. Feel free
to continue it over on the COFF list.

E-mail me if you'd like to join the COFF list.

Cheers, Warren

