From: Digest <deadmail>
To: "OS/2GenAu Digest"<deadmail>
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:01:00 EST-10EDT,10,-1,0,7200,3,-1,0,7200,3600
Subject: [os2genau_digest] No. 807
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**************************************************
Tuesday 17 February 2004
 Number  807
**************************************************

Subjects for today
 
1   Bouncing emails : Ian Manners" <deadmail>
2   * Reminder * - Melbourne OS/2 SIG Meeting : List Admin" <listadmin at os2 dot org dot au>
3  Re:  Bouncing emails : voytek at sbt dot net dot au
4  Re:  St George Internet Banking : John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
5  Re:  St George Internet Banking : John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
6  Re:  St George Internet Banking : John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
7  Re:  St George Internet Banking : John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
8  Re:  SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re:  St George Internet Banking : John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
9  Re:  St George Internet Banking : Ken Laurie <ken.laurie at graeleah dot com>
10  Re:  Broadband prices  (was: St George Internet Banking) : Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au>
11  Re:  Broadband prices  (was: St George Internet Banking) : David Forrester" <davidfor at internode.on dot net>

**= Email   1 ==========================**

Date:  Tue, 17 Feb 2004 01:42:52 +1100 (EDT)
From:  "Ian Manners" <deadmail>
Subject:   Bouncing emails

Hi John

Sending this to the list as its also affecting others :-(

Just read your email via the website contact forms.

Yes, it looks like one of my RBL's (dont know which one yet) is adding
dynamic IP address's to its list to combat SPAM coming from compromised
dialup users with windows machines (I assume).

Hmm, come to think of it, that would also be a good idea as it would
greatly reduce the number of virus being send out from infected
windows machines as well, ok, had to find something good about it.

This means that if you are sending email via your server, and your server
doesnt resolve back to its correct IP address, and that server is on a
Dynamic IP address, it will now be blocked.

Personally I think this is a good idea looking from the top as far as
RFC's go BUT by the same token, there appear to be a lot of
semi-legitmate email servers out there using dynamic IP address's.

Should really setup mailservers on a Dynamic IP to relay via your
ISP but I also realise your problem with your domain name, and
the Optus mail servers.

I'll go through the logs and see if I can figure out which one is doing
it.

It would actually reduce SPAM and virus/worm's a lot if all emails
rejected email from a source that did not resolve back to an MX,
I also think this would be a much better solution that Mr BillyGates
idea of charging postage for email (hmm, finincial interest here with
hotmail, think of the money they would make). His idea is that if each
email cost a few cents, then spammers would have to pay a small
fortune to send spam, ya, right, and the spammer will use a legit
server to, then what about all the mailing lists around the world !

Cheers
Ian Manners
http://www.os2site dot com/

To err is human.  To really screw up it takes a computer!
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**= Email   2 ==========================**

Date:  Tue, 17 Jan 2004 01:30:15 +1100 (EDT)
From:  "List Admin" <listadmin at os2 dot org dot au>
Subject:   * Reminder * - Melbourne OS/2 SIG Meeting

 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event.
 Melbourne January OS/2 SIG Meeting 

 The Second MEETING for the year for 

             'Melbourne PC Users Group OS/2 SIG'

 Date:   Tuesday, 24th Feb 2004
 Time:  6:30PM - 9:30PM
 Place:  Melbourne PC Group
           Victoria, Australia.

 The Monthly Meeting of Melbourne OS/2 SIG 
 Normally held the fourth Tuesday of each month.
 Except December.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

**= Email   3 ==========================**

Date:  Tue, 17 Feb 2004 11:09:27 +1100 (EST)
From:  voytek at sbt dot net dot au
Subject:  Re:  Bouncing emails

Ian,

> Yes, it looks like one of my RBL's (dont know which one yet) is adding
> dynamic IP address's to its list to combat SPAM coming from compromised
> dialup users with windows machines (I assume).

I refuse to accept any mail traffic from dynamic IP mail servers (as well
as, servers with no name, no reverse resolution, etc,etc, etc)

on average, we drop 85% of all attempted inbound mail

so far, ver few false positives.


> I also think this would be a much better solution that Mr BillyGates

'Sir Bill', please


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**= Email   4 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:44:15 +1100 (AEDT)
From:  "John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  St George Internet Banking

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 15:55:54 +1000, David Shearer wrote:

Hi Dave.

I tested with Firefox 0.8 and Firebird 0.7

Firefox 0.8 continues to have a problem with scripts (javascript and perl I
have already noticed here) 

Found Demo but Progress NIL - simply skipped Demo and came back to a "Thank
you for using the Demo" screen

>That happens for me - it does not recognise the java vm.  Mozilla 1.6 was not any better.  It seems St George 
>have done something to cripple OS/2's java vms.  

Firebird 0.7 at least got me further.

Found Demo but no progress at all start script did not execute 

Found System Requirements page 
Test You System:
OS 	OS/2 	(cross)
Browser Mozilla	(green tick) (nice to see they remember the
auditors<g>)
Javascript	(cross) 
Java VM etc 	(blank)
SSL	compatible (green tick)	

More interesting still:
Went to "More Information" on each point
OS - told me OS/2 not supported
No definition of "supported"
Javascript - told me that OS/2 was not supported
Java VM - told me that OS/2 was not supported

>
>I might have to resort to using windows in a VPC to access internet banking now - what a pain.  Only hope is 
>if enough os/2 users complain.

Dave, I would resort to terms like "discrimination" "unfair trading"
"consumer affairs" "arbitrary withdrawal of services" "inaccurate detection
of installed software" and "financial damage". Especially since as you say
that it was definitely working not long ago.


Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
os2 at melbpc dot org dot au or 
talldad at kepl dot com dot au
___________________

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
.... Windows NT? New Technology? OS/2 has had it for years!
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**= Email   5 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:40:27 +1100 (AEDT)
From:  "John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  St George Internet Banking

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:30:33 +1100, Ed Durrant wrote:

>I guess you know you can tell Mozilla to spoof (report itself as) running on e.g. WinXP and being IE5 ?
>
>Cheers/2
>
>Ed.

Hi Ed.

Yes, but it's a desperate measure which only reinforces the stupid stats
about browser prevalence on the web doesn't it?

It's a subtle method for exercising monopoly power IMNSHO!


Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
os2 at melbpc dot org dot au or 
talldad at kepl dot com dot au
___________________

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
.... You, you and you, panic. The rest of you, come with me.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

**= Email   6 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:45:59 +1100 (AEDT)
From:  "John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  St George Internet Banking

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:28:31 +1100, Ken Laurie wrote:

>John
>
>I just tried the CBA with a clean install of firefox 0.8 and I was able 
>to use it without a problem. The only part that didn't work was the Java 
>ad running at the top of the screen, otherwise it seemed all OK.
>
>regards
>Ken

Thanks Ken - there's hope yet.

What settings do you have?  Can we compare notes?


Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
os2 at melbpc dot org dot au or 
talldad at kepl dot com dot au
___________________

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
.... OXYMORON #566: Synthetic natural gas 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

**= Email   7 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:53:31 +1100 (AEDT)
From:  "John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  St George Internet Banking

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:35:56 +1000, David Shearer wrote:

>The other irony about this new saga with St George is that I installed Win98 with the vanilla IE 5.0 using the 
>default old MS Java VM (under VPC) and lo and behold the internet banking worked.  I can't imagine that St 
>George have now just updated to a more secure uptodate Java - and hence exlcuded OS/2.  My suspicion is 
>that they are excluding non-standard OS and browsers - by the browser identifier (they only officially support 
>Windows and Mac).  They did this a few years back but must have backed down and reopened access due 
>to complaints.

I recall a flurry on our then OS/2 list about that very thing.

>
>I am not an expert on the Trade Practices Act but I wonder if this is illegal third party forcing (eg forcing you to 
>use a third party product to access their service).

If you can read the Act, you can increase your understanding. Start at
http://www.austlii.edu.au/ and look at legislation TPA is Federal but you
could also look at Cwlth Banking Act and NSW consumer laws various.

>Boy am I pissed offf.

That makes for a prima facie case (excluding all the usual legal jargon<g>).
You are a victim of market power and something like a secondary boycott, as
you said above.

It's equivalent to saying "you can only access our branches if you drive
either a Ford or a Holden" which would exclude those who use a skate board as
well as drivers of BMWs! (Or should we say, Formula One Ferrari?)


Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
os2 at melbpc dot org dot au or 
talldad at kepl dot com dot au
___________________

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
.... Windows: Simulated OS/2!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

**= Email   8 ==========================**

Date:  Tue, 17 Feb 2004 13:38:07 +1100 (AEDT)
From:  "John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re:  St George Internet Banking

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:49:47 +1100 (EST), voytek at sbt dot net dot au wrote:

Hi Voytek.

>> It is now questionable that they would be in breach of the TPA, as they
>> officially support the MAC now
>> providing some choice.  I think the closest part of teh TPA Act is thrid
>> line forcing - requiring you to use a third
>> party product to access their service.
>
>
>fwiw, I've notice some threads on Sydney Linux ML about some unexpected
>probs accessing StG, as of last few days

Which goes against your point above. "Some choice" is not the same as "free
choice" and I still reckon market power is being used/abused,. so the TPA is
still available. 

I go back to my illustration "you can't come to one of our branches unless
you drive either a Ford or a Holden" - two choices, yes,  BUT is it really
freedom of choice?

This is different to saying "you must write out your cheques in the English
language" - no choice but essential for unambiguous communication (and
legally required, of course). How you learn English is not their concern, but
if they were to say "you must learn English at the Microsoft Language Centre"
I can imagine the howls of rage!


Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
os2 at melbpc dot org dot au or 
talldad at kepl dot com dot au
___________________

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
.... Troubleshooting: if it gives you any trouble, shoot it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

**= Email   9 ==========================**

Date:  Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:06:59 +1100
From:  Ken Laurie <ken.laurie at graeleah dot com>
Subject:  Re:  St George Internet Banking

John

What info do you require? I just installed firefox and change the following:
General - Connection settings to my proxy.
Privacy - Cookies enabled from originating web site only
Web Features - I think I left. Block popup windows, enable java and 
javascript and load images from  originating web site only.
Everything else I left as standard.

I just tried it again. It worked, but instead of opening a separate 
window for the netbank it open the page in the current browser window.

regards
Ken
John Angelico wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 18:28:31 +1100, Ken Laurie wrote:
>
>  
>
>>John
>>
>>I just tried the CBA with a clean install of firefox 0.8 and I was able 
>>to use it without a problem. The only part that didn't work was the Java 
>>ad running at the top of the screen, otherwise it seemed all OK.
>>
>>regards
>>Ken
>>    
>>
>
>Thanks Ken - there's hope yet.
>
>What settings do you have?  Can we compare notes?
>
>
>Best regards
>John Angelico
>OS/2 SIG
>os2 at melbpc dot org dot au or 
>talldad at kepl dot com dot au
>___________________
>
>PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
>... OXYMORON #566: Synthetic natural gas 

> 

>
>
>  
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

**= Email   10 ==========================**

Date:  Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:27:53 +1100
From:  Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au>
Subject:  Re:  Broadband prices  (was: St George Internet Banking)

On some options , Telstra has followed the Optus lead and said that rather than charge
for excess usage, they will clamp the connection speed when you exceed plan - are you
sure that's not the case here as well ?

I used to have a broadband plan with Telstra bigpond cable that was limited to 300 MB
and usually I could get away with keeping under that. It was a full unlimited speed in
both directions (averaged between 1.5 mb/s and 2 Mb/s depending upon time of day).
They dropped that option and transferred me to a 500MB plan and later I transferred to
a 3GB plan before last month switching to the i\unlimited download plan to get the
reduction of $10 / month. I called and asked all relevant questions - no I didn't lose
out on anything I was already getting and no, being an existing customer, I didn't
have to lock myself in for 24 months. The new plans are to make Telstra competitive
again. Perhaps this is a good plan for them and their subscibers for once !

I suspect as I think you do, that the $30 / month plan is there to kill the
competition.

Cheers/2

Ed.

David Forrester wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 08:16:40 +1000, Dennis.Nolan at defence.gov.au wrote:
>
> >
> >Another thing, I noticed in the paper this morning that Telstra is
> >re-pricing broadband access to $30-  per month.
> >Hopefully that will trigger a rash of price reductions from other
> >providers.
>
> The full details of this price are:
>
> $29.95 gets a 256Kbps download, 64Kbps upload with 200MB of included
> data.  Then it's charged at 15c per MB.  With a minimum of a 12 month
> contract.
>
> The first thought that comes to mind is: How long will it take to
> exceed 200MB?  My calculation tells me 15 minutes.  So, help the kids
> get on the net, walk away to cook dinner, and, by the time you've
> finished, there's an excess bill coming for the mp3s.
>
> I'm sure that there are a people who will stay inside the 200MB, but,
> the big problem is that there are a lot of people who won't understand
> what's going on.  They'll see the $29.95, and say "Great, that's
> cheap".  And then get a big surprise  when they get the excess bill.
> Personally, I don't have much sympathy for them, but, I think that
> Telstra is deliberately taking advantage of this.
>
> The other thought that people have is: Great, this will start a price
> war for all the ISPs.  But, there's a problem: the other ADSL ISPs are
> reporting that Telstra charges them more than $29.95 for the access to
> the ADSL port in the exchange.  So, none of the other ISPs are likely
> to match this, except maybe as an introductory offer.  And, it makes it
> look even more like Telstra are expecting users to exceed the limit and
> cover their losses that way.
>
> So everyone can see the ISPs comments I'm basing the above on, they
> come from "Whirlpool" <http://whirlpool dot net dot au/>, which hosts broadband
> news and forums.  The forums have good participation from the broadband
> ISPs, with the notable exception of Telstra.  The forum thread I was
> reading was
> <http://forums.whirlpool dot net dot au/forum-replies.cfm?t=160480>.  The
> comments from the ISP representatives are are marked.
>
> --
> David Forrester
> davidfor at internode.on dot net
> http://www.os2world dot com/djfos2/
>

>  


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**= Email   11 ==========================**

Date:  Tue, 17 Feb 2004 21:50:50 +1100 (EDT)
From:  "David Forrester" <davidfor at internode.on dot net>
Subject:  Re:  Broadband prices  (was: St George Internet Banking)

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 20:27:53 +1100, Ed Durrant wrote:

>On some options , Telstra has followed the Optus lead and said that rather than charge
>for excess usage, they will clamp the connection speed when you exceed plan - are you
>sure that's not the case here as well ?

Not from what I could see.  And, as they have a charge for excess MB,
it's not they are doing any sort of speed throttling.

>
>I used to have a broadband plan with Telstra bigpond cable that was limited to 300 MB
>and usually I could get away with keeping under that. It was a full unlimited speed in
>both directions (averaged between 1.5 mb/s and 2 Mb/s depending upon time of day).
>They dropped that option and transferred me to a 500MB plan and later I transferred to
>a 3GB plan before last month switching to the i\unlimited download plan to get the
>reduction of $10 / month. I called and asked all relevant questions - no I didn't lose
>out on anything I was already getting and no, being an existing customer, I didn't
>have to lock myself in for 24 months. The new plans are to make Telstra competitive
>again. Perhaps this is a good plan for them and their subscibers for once !

The higher cost plans do make Telstra much more competitive.  One thing
that is missing, is that they are charging for extras that other ISPs
include.  Telstra charge for Spam and virus filtering separately.  They
also charge for a firewall, but, that seems to be a subscription to
firewall to download to the users machine, it may not be to bad an
option.

Just to explain my situation: I had a 500MB, unlimited hours dial-up
until 18 months ago.  My wife and I shared it, and we came fairly close
to the limit most months, with one month exceeding it by a lot, but,
they messed up their accounting, it didn't cost anything.  We changed
to a 512/128kbp plan with 3GB downloads at Internode.  We quickly
expanded to use that, with the kids helping as well, but, Internode
upped the allowance to 4.5GB which is about right.  Late last year,
they upped it to 12GB, and I'm thinking of saving money and dropping to
the 6GB plan.   This includes virus and spam scanning of e-mail, and,
one thing that I like but haven't taken advantage of, is they don't
block any ports, and are happy for their users to run servers.  And
they are OS agnostic - the owner is a Mac user.

>
>I suspect as I think you do, that the $30 / month plan is there to kill the
>competition.

Either that, or they are after the publicity value of having such a low
price plan.

--
David Forrester
davidfor at internode.on dot net
http://www.os2world dot com/djfos2/

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