The RD53 in my PRO-350 has started refusing to spin up...you can here
it try to, as a whirrign noise that increases in pitch and loudness
for a while, but then slows back down to nothing...is this
disk completely dead, or is it possible to fix?
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants     
gleason@mwk.com  
                 ================================
                         DEC Professional Computer
                         Frequently Asked Questions
                          and Miscellaneous Trivia
                      ================================
      compiled and edited by: Chaim Dworkin  chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu
-------------------   --------------------------------------------------------
 Vol. 2 No. 2 Part I    Size:971 lines; 49753 bytes         3 September, 1993
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     This is Part 1 of a 2 part post.    
               
This "FAQ and other miscellaneous trivia" is compiled from discussions
which took place on comp.sys.dec.micro over the past 5 years.  Whenever
possible names and addresses of contributing individuals are placed after
each answer.  Additions, corrections, and constructive comments are
welcomed.
Summary of questions in Part I:                       
                         
Q1.  I have just acquired a DEC "Professional 350".  I really don't know
     what it is.  What operating system will it run?  What sort of CPU does
     it have?         
Q2.  What's the difference between a pro350 and a pro380?            
Q3.  What languages are available for the Pro?                                
Q4.  Where can I get software for the Professional computer?  
Q5.  How much memory is on the motherboard?  How much can I bring it up to?   
Q6.  How can I add memory to my Pro?   
Q7.  Along with the Pro-380 I received three RAM boards.  I know that the
     slots in the Pro computers are dedicated, RAM goes in a specified slot,
     video in another, etc.  Can all three RAM boards be put in and be
     recognized?   
Q8.  Can I put a hard drive and controller card in my Pro 325 to convert it
     to a Pro 350?
Q9.  Is there any possible way of doing any kinda modification to my Pro
     350 to turn it into a Pro 380?
Q10. How do I format a generic floppy on a PRO?
Q11. Can I format an RX50 on my MSDOS computer?      
Q12. Is there a way to copy RX50s on an MSDOS computer?    
Q13. Is an RX50 equivalent to a low density or high density generic floppy?
Q14. Is there any way to make a PRO floppy bootable?     
Q15. What's the difference between a microPDP-11 and a Pro?
Q16. Can I run MSDOS on a Pro?    
Q17. Where can I get unix for the Pro?       
Q18. I just installed venix on my Pro.  What is the root password?
Q14. I have an old copy of xxx unix for the Pro in a closet somewhere and
     I'm going to clean out the closet and discard all the old Pro stuff.   
     
Summary of questions in Part II:

Q15. I have lots of space on my disk yet whenever I try to copy a file I
     get a message saying out of disk space, please delete some files and
     try again.  Why?    
Q16  How do I reclaim disk space occupied by "invisible" files?
Q17. How do I set the printer port baud rate from DCL?
Q18. How do I enter DCL commands that are more than one line in length?
Q19. How do I set protection on a file?     
Q20. How do I reassign a device's LUN after the task has been built?
Q21. How do I Run RMD  (SHOW MEMORY) from a second terminal?
Q22. I'm running P/OS 2.0 and can't get it to recognize my 20 Mb drive.
Q23. I was given a Pro-350 by an office that was junking it and when I
     booted it up it asked for a password.  I don't know any passwords.
     How can I break past that and delete the password file?          
Q24. Can anyone out there tell me the pinout for the monitor/keyboard    
     connector on a DecPro 350?
Q25. What is the pinout for the video port?
Q26. What are the pin-outs for the RX50 floppy controller?
Q27. I booted my Pro and got an error code.  What does it mean? 
Q28. Are there any pro BBSs?  
Q29. I can't get my hands on an ethernet connection for my Pro.  Is there
     any alternative? 
Q30. What is the latest version of Kermit available for the Pro?
Q31. The Pro-350 comes with one serial port standard.  Does anyone know if
     it's possible to add a second serial port or additional ports?
Q32. What is DDCMP, Digital Data Communications Message Protocol?   
Q33. I have an RD-something.  What kind of drive is it?  What kind of
     controller do I need?    
Q35. I tried to plug in the keyboard while my Pro was powered up     
     and now the keyboard doesn't work.     
     
                         **************************  
     
Q1.  I have just acquired a DEC "Professional 350".  I really don't know
what it is.  What operating system will it run?  What sort of CPU does it
have?  

The Pro-300 was the engineering workstation of it's time.  There were 3  
models: the 325, 350, and 380.  The 325 and 350 shared the LSI-11/23 cpu.
The difference between them was that the 325 was floppy based, while the
350 had a hard disk and a bigger power supply. It can handle the RD51,  
RD52, and RD53 drives (10, 20, and 71MB, respectively).  The 380 was based
on the LSI-11/73 cpu.  Available options include color monitors and
ethernet.  Runs 16 bits at 3 Mhz.  
     
Basically, the PRO-300 is a personal PDP-11, with computer and  
terminal in a neat pc package.  It has an expansion bus, the CT-bus.
Unfortunately, it never really caught on, DEC marketing being what it
is, despite being a contemporary of the IBM-PC and being priced about
the same as the original IBM's.  A friend of mine ran some benchmarks
on his 350 , and determined it's about 1/3 to 1/2 as fast as a      
microVAX-II for non-virtual-memory numerical applications. 

For a while after they stopped trying to sell the PRO's to the masses,
DEC continued to use them as the central console system for the big   
VAX Clusters in the 8000 series.  They also sold them to various OEM's   
as process controllers and graphical front-ends for large control    
systems.  It was a cheap way to get an 11/23 or 11/73, if your   
expansion needs were limited and you only needed one (or perhaps two)     
terminals.       

Operating systems: the worst thing DEC did to the PRO's was putting a
brain-dead menu-driven version of RSX-11M+ called P/OS (Professional
Operating System) on them.  Now, RSX-11M+ is a nice operating system, as
are the other PDP-11 operating systems.  But who wants to be limited to a
miserable, slow menu system on a nice little computer like the PRO-350?
The only saving grace of P/OS is the PRO/Toolkit, a development environment
which includes a partial DCL command shell. But you still boot up at the
menu level, and it's only a limited shell.  Fortunately, RT-11 quickly
became available, as did a couple of versions of PDP-11 unix.  The one I
remember was VENIX, which was put out by VentureCom.  It would be nice if
someone at Berkeley put their unix on the PRO... 

As for P/OS (and a version of RT-11 which actually runs _under_ P/OS), it's
still available from DECUS, basically just for media charges. They also
have printed documentation.  Like DEC operating systems in general, P/OS
has excellent and voluminous documentation.  I have 8 3-inch 3-ring binders
on my bookcase, plus various smaller documents. Everything you ever wanted
to know about the Professional 300 series...  

DECUS also has a C compiler that runs under the PRO/Toolkit, as well  
as a BASIC.  They don't have the PRO Fortran, possibly because it's  
the same as the regular RSX Fortran (speculation).    

Personal opinion: if DEC hadn't crippled the PRO with P/OS, but had  
sold them as software development workstations for the PDP-11, 
offering versions of all the PDP-11 operating systems (RSX-11M,    
RSX-11M+, Ultrix, RT-11, RSTS/E, IAS), they could have sold lots of    
them.  It's a great way to move your system hackers off the main
production machine without having to buy an expensive machine just for
the developers.  Unfortunately, Our Favorite Computer Company has      
always been stronger at engineering than marketing.  sigh.    

    Steve Mitchell  steve@cps.altadena.ca.us 
----  

The pro is more akin to a mini, and will do some nifty multitasking if you
choose to use it...with HARDWARE protection of each task against the
others, hardware floating point, etc. etc. There's a trick to booting off a
floppy to regain control. Also [zzsys]firstappl.ptr should probably be
deleted, and the pro native toolkit is a MUST. Given the native toolkit,
the Pro is a quite respectable computer.  The major lossage of a pro is
that I/D space separation is not supported by P/OS, which limits you to 8
page registers, making address space manipulation more of a chore.
    Glenn Everhart  Everhart%Arisia.decnet@crd.ge.com   

                         **************************   

Q2.  What's the difference between a pro350 and a pro380?
    
The PRO-380 is in fact a faster PRO-350 - about 5 times as fast I think.
The 350 uses the PDP 11/23 chip (F11) and the 380 uses the PDP 11/73 chip
(J11).  

It also has extra memory bitmap pages, faster graphics and comes as   
standard with 512kb on the mother baord.  The ram expansion cards can go in
any slot. As I remember it, the 380 does not have a video card as all the
video is on the mother board.  

If you do MACRO-11 assembler coding you'll certainly discover that the F-11
doesn't really check for odd address errors, while the J-11 does (traps
thru vector 4).  Also, the J-11 includes the ability to seperate
Instruction and Data address spaces, and includes a third addressing mode
(Supervisor).  As I recall,  P/OS takes advantage of some but not all of
the additional features (not entirely sure exactly which ones appeared in
which P/OS version).       

   Graeme Thomson      GRAEME@praxa.com.au      
----    

Another 380 feature is that you can divide memory for applications into I-
space and D-space (I = instructions, D = data), allowing your programs to
use twice as much memory as in the 350 (as long as half is instruction and 
half is data, of course).   

Other potential OS platforms (anything but POS!) were PRO-Venix (a UNIX of
some ilk), RT-11 (and the non-DEC, RT-11-like TSX), and some flavor of 
MUMPS.  Also it can be a decnet end node.    
Dean File   
Chapel Hill, NC   
                         **************************      

Q3.  What languages are available for the Pro?
   
DEC has various PDP11 languages that apply to the pro...stuff like BASIC
(distinct from the DECUS Basic dialect), Fortran 77, Cobol, Datatrieve, and
various others. DEC compilers are fairly cheap on the pro...probably even 
more so now that the pro is, er, "stabilized". The two DECUS pascal    
compilers, NBS and Swedish differ in that NBS generates faster, more   
compact code, while Swedish is more standard-conformant. (Turbo is not very
standard conformant, BTW.) Two good Pascal compilers, a BASIC interpreter,
a C compiler, FORTH, FOCAL, etc. are available. Also the DEC F77 compiler 
and mucho other stuff.    
    Glenn Everhart  Everhart%Arisia.decnet@crd.ge.com
                               **************************
Q4.  Where can I get software for the Professional computer?

A couple of years ago, Digital donated all of the latest copies of their
software for the PRO-350 to the DECUS library.  This included P/OS 3.2, 
Synergy Windows for the PRO, DECNET, PRO/BASIC, the Tookit w/ DCL,      
PROSE Plus word processor, etc.  This software is available on RX50  
floppy media from the DECUS library.  Copies of the complete documentation
set are also available.    

   Kurt Wampler          wampler@MicroUnity.com       
   DECUS can be phoned at 508 480 3418. Join; it's free. It's the Digital
Equipment Computer Users' Society. There are at least 95MB of diskettes of
stuff packaged for pro between the library and the DECUS PC SIG. Much of it
REQUIRES the native toolkit (which supplies little niceties like a decent
command interpreter and a n assembler and linker...and the system symbol
table file!). The DECUS library catalog, which you'll get free when you
join, lists a bunch of pro offerings on rx50. I believe the 350 has a semi-
weird disk interface though. My personal use for a 325 would be to run RT11
on it at most, since RT11 runs reasonably well off floppies. P/OS (which is
to say, slightly modified RSX11M-PLUS) does not. There's lots of software
for rt11 also.  
  The basic engine isn't really all that slow; there IS however a LOT of  
cruft in p/os. (Not for nothing did that OS get the nickname Piece Of S**t
because of the menu orientation and misfeatures that distinguish it from
RSX11M+.) With some of the free tools you can bypass much of that though.
There's also a quite decent memory disk for p/os on the RSX SIG tapes. When
you get your DECUS catalog, check out the pdp11 areas as well as the pro
areas. Most of the stuff applies to pro. There's a working group in the RSX
SIG whose mission is to make software from sig tapes available on floppies
or other media (the "Other Media" working group...it actually DOES    
function). I'm continually surprised how many people with DEC processors 
don't know about DECUS. No wonder you use your pro as a terminal! sigh...

   Glenn Everhart      Everhart%Arisia.decnet@crd.ge.com    
                         **************************          

Q5.  How much memory is on the motherboard?  How much can I bring it up to?
  
The amount of memory is really dependant upon where it is going to be 
installed: In the Mother Board /or/ in one of the Expansion Cages, that is,
along with the disk controllers, Tms etc. locations. Expansion Cage: The 
memory board are configured for a :: maximum of 256K ::- you can install as
many as you want this way (say to about 3 units of 256ks.     

Mother Board: Here the modules vary; they are one the two module-sizes,   
that is, 128k boards or 512k boards. System normally comes with 2 of 128ks,
thus, making a total of 256k in mother board and the other 256k board in
the expansion cage: making a total of 512k - a basic PRO 350 system. You 
can replace one of 128ks with one 512k new board. This 512k is actually
made for PRO380; but You can in Your 350, replace one 128k and substitute a
512k safely.
             
 tung   tung@eniac.seas.upenn.edu

                       **************************

Q6.  How can I add memory to my Pro?   

Here is a how to guide for memory upgrade of the PRO 350 at home. At $2.00 
per chip $64 will get you a 1 Megabyte of memory on your PRO and free up 1
expansion slot if you remove the memory board.  Each board goes from 128K -
> 512K and you could do 1 or both in     PRO. 

Professional 350 Daughter Board Memory Upgrade   

The Professional 350 (PRO 350) requires 512Kbytes of memory in order to
start P/OS.  In the least costly configuration this requirement is supplied
by two 128Kbyte daughter boards located on the motherboard underneath the
hard disks.  These boards are elevated above the motherboard on spacers and
are easily recognized.  An expansion slot usually holds another memory
Board with an additional 256Kbytes.  Together these boards form the
512kbytes of memory needed in the minimal system configuration.

Because of advances in memory chips and DEC's useful fore-sight it is
possible to install 1024Kbytes using only the two daughter boards.  This
may free up a slot or just give you additional memory.  This file describes
one method used to upgrade the memory boards.    

The upgrade requires 32 256K X 1 dynamic refresh memory chips with at least
150ns access time.  The original chips are not in sockets so they have to
be desoldered.  To make desoldering simple we used the following technique.

1) Remove the memory boards from the PRO.         
2) Pre-heat a burner on an electric range to about medium heat. 
3) Get your pliers or an IC extractor ready.   
4) Each board has 2 rows of 8 chips each.  The chips will be 
   removed 1 column at a time (2 in each column).  Hold the     
   board so that a column of chips is over the hottest part of  
   the burner.  When the solder his hot enough simply pull the 
   column of 2 chips out.
5) Remove the board from over the burner an allow it time to cool. 
   If you try to do too many columns at one time you will scorch    
   the board.  Minor scorching may be expected depending on the   
   amount of patience you have concerning getting the burner
   temperature correct and how many rows you attempt to do at one
   time.  If you are careful enough you should be able to do it    
   without scorching the board at all!  Any time you touch the board   
   to the burner you can expect scorch marks. 

Note: Sometimes the pins on the old memory chips are bent outwards on the
bottom of the memory board.  This makes them harder to remove.  Straighten
them if you can.   

Note: Don't worry about the capacitors, they may fall out when the solder
is molten.  The can be replaced when the new chips are inserted.
   
6) After you have done all columns and removed all the old memory
   chips you still have to remove old solder.  Our homebrew  
   method of doing this is to use a vacuum cleaner as a solder sucker
   device.  Turn the vacuum cleaner on and hold the nozzle between
   your knees.  Using a soldering iron heat the solder on the
   pin hole a few inches away from the vacuum cleaner nozzle.  When
   the solder is molten bring the board down on the nozzle so that
   the nozzle is centered under the hole.  This sucks the solder out
   but it has a tendency to splatter it on the underside of the
   board too.

7) Use the soldering iron to collect the splattered solder into the       
   pin holes on the other side of the board and then re-heat the
   pin hole and do step 6 again.  After about three times the pin
   holes are clear from old solder.  It could take longer for the  
   first board until the technique is developed.   

Note:  Solder will accumulate on the inside of the vacuum cleaner nozzle.
I isn't very much solder but someone's wife could get mad about it.  We
don't know what will happen if the nozzle is made from plastic instead of
metal as it was here.  Perhaps some aluminum foil wrapped around the nozzle
would solve both problems.        

8) After steps 6 and 7 you should have a board with all the all the
   pin holes free of solder so that you can insert the new memory   
   chips.  Certain holes which are par  of large traces are take
   more effort to unsolder because there is more solder in them.
   All holes need to be open in order to insert the new memory
   chips.  Do the capacitor holes as well if necessary.    
   
9) Place the new memory chips in the old holes and solder them   
   in.  Make sure they face the same way as the originals. You   
   need only solder the chips from the bottom of the board, the
   plate-through holes will do the rest.

10) There are two jump        s that need to be soldered to enable the     
   extra memory.  They are labeled J1 and J2 on the board.  Cut        
   a piece of wire, strip the ends and solder the ends across    
   the jumpers.  

11) Reinstall the board into the PRO.  
   
12) The P/OS toolkit ``show memory'' command should show 512K WORDS
    (1024K bytes) of memory with only the two mother boards installed.
   

We have upgraded four boards this way so far and not one has failed so far.
All the memory chips we used were tested in another computer (one with
sockets) before they were installed.  You may want to solder sockets into
your memory board instead of the chips themselves. If you have bad memory
when you start up your PRO it would be much easier to replace a socketed
memory chip than a soldered one. Although we have singe'd a few boards
perfecting this method the damage was only cosmetic.  Removing the memory
chips over the burner is the most difficult part of the operation.
   
Todd Miller                tmiller@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu
                         **************************

Q7.  Along with the Pro-380 I received three RAM boards.  I know that the
slots in the Pro computers are dedicated, RAM goes in a specified slot,
video in another, etc.  Can all three RAM boards be put in and be
recognized?

Actually, if I remember correctly some of the boards were slot    
dependent, others weren't.  Additional memory is useful up to a      
point (J-11 max physical memory address is 22 bits) depending on   
what's already in the system.  The base memory is daughter boards
on the CPU motherboard, expansion memory can be added as modules in   
the CTI bus.  The memory modules should self configure and play (if      
it all works :-).     

- Bruce McCulley        

8.  Can I put a hard drive and controller card in my Pro 325 to convert it
to a Pro 350?    

Possibly.  The standard method of conversion is to purchase the upgrade kit
which consists of new motherboard, stronger power supply, and hard drive
with hard drive controller card.  It costs a lot of money.  I tried to take
a shortcut and simply put the hard drive controller card into the Pro 325.
DEC glued plastic over the connector edges of the slot that the HD
controller card fits into in order to discourage people from just inserting
a drive.  You have to spend some time carefully cleaning the connector
edges of glue and plastic piec   (DEC used a strong glue).  I called DEC
and asked them if it was possible and the person who I spoke with said he
has heard of only two people who succeeded.  I did not, but my HD was bad
to begin with.  
Chaim Dworkin    chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu       

                         **************************   

Q9.  Is there any possible way of doing any kinda modification to my Pro
350 to turn it into a Pro 380? 

Answer:  No.  The F11 and J11 chips are wildly different.  If you could    
scrounge a Pro380 system board, you could probably replace the 350 system 
board with that.  

IMHO, having a 380 doesn't give much additional return.  Oh sure, the chip
is much more capable than the F11, but with super mode, I/D space, and  
cache permanently turned off, what real gain is there other than a littl
bit of CPU speed?  I find the stupid disk controller in my 380 to be more
of a problem in throttling the performance of the system.
BTW, DEC did once put up genuine RSX-11M-Plus on the 380.  The conditionals
are still there in the Exec source to make it work.  Haven't got around to
trying it yet, but one of these days ...           

                         **************************            

Q10.  How do I format a generic floppy on a PRO?

You don't.  DEC, in it's wisdom, decided to take advantage of a captive  
audience and get rich off selling preformatted disks to Pro owners.  They
built a machine incapable of formatting disks.  You'd think that would
leave an opening for some enterprising hacker to write a formatter.   
However, I've been told the drive controller chips on earlier models of Pro
are totally incapable of formatting.  But there is an out....  You can   
format a generic disk on a Rainbow using the /I option to the FORMAT 
command.  Some people, with lots of Pro's, bought a Rainbow JUST to make
disks. Of course, nowadays, a copy of Media Master from Intersecting
Concepts will do the job on any AT clone...   

   Chaim Dworkin  chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu
   David Lesher   wb8foz@ibiza.cs.miami.edu
                         
There was a firmware update for the PRO's RX50 diskette controller that
allowed it to format its own floppies, but it was never released to
customers.  The FORMAT command under P/OS 3.2 is all set up to format
the floppies if it finds the right version of firmware in the controller
card.  I have tried since the Fall '91 DECUS Symposium to reach the  
old manager of the PRO development group in Digital to see if he
be willing to release that firmware through the DECUS Library, but he
never responded to my e-mail and I haven't been able to obtain his   
telephone number; all I have is his name and e-mail address.

The PRO's floppy disk interface has a Western Digital chip on it which  
is fully capable of formatting, but a microprocessor (Intel 8041? if I
remember right) sits between the WD chip and the bus, and only the
repertoire of commands provided by this uP chip are passed through
to the WD chip.   
   
DEC's [unforgiveable] decision to not allow the PRO to format its own
diskettes was based first on repeatability problems with the "A" version
of the RX50 drive; but even after those problems were ironed out, the
marketeers at DEC appear to have fixated on the meager $$$ they would make
from selling RX50 media (HAH!).    

So...PRO users of the world (if there are any of you left out there)  
UNITE!  Let's see if we can brainstorm an effective way to coax Digital
into releasing the new firmware for the RX50 controller.  If I could
just get my hands on one set of the ROM(s), I would arrange to have
them duplicated and make them available at cost to anyone else in the
world wanting the ability to format their own diskettes.   
   Kurt Wampler      wampler@MicroUnity.com  

                               **************************

Q11.  Can I format an RX50 on my MSDOS computer?    

There are some software packages available which proport to allow 
formatting of RX50s on MSDOS 5 1/4" high density drives.  Here is a   
short review of three of those packages.

    I have been playing with 22DSK138.ZIP and RAIND112.ZIP and      
FDFORM18.ZIP long enough to give some additional info regarding 
Rainbow/DECmate RX50 formatting and related issues.       

FDFORMAT 1.8    

    There are some problems with the current release that have always
been in at least the two previous versions when attempting to format
RX50 diskettes.  You use the command:
                         
FDFORMAT A: /Y:2 /T:80 /N:10 /H:1

to format for RX50.  The /Y:2 is to force a two-sector stagger per
track to speed up transfer on all systems except -11/pro.  /H:1  
means a one-sided disk.  /N:10 for 10 sectors and /T:80 for 80 
tracks.      

    The resultant disks are marginal, especially to revision A and B
RX50 drives.  Symptoms include data CRC errors right out of the
formatter when test reading the diskettes, and the inability to write
data that won't read back with data CRC errors.  The problems worsen
with higher track numbers, but often start right at track 0 or 1.
Using MD1DD media instead of MD2D makes a more reliable disk, so this
was assumed to be the problem.   

    Th         has been confirmed as incorrect.

    There are several bugs in FDFORMAT that directly affect RX50's:

If the floppy is already formatted without error for all 80 tracks,
then FDFORMAT will merely verify readibility on every sector.  Then
the directory info is written by ordinary writing (not formatting)
means as previously discussed.  (Meaning suitable only as a strange
variant of PC-DOS-specific MS-DOS, not DECmate/Rainbow MS-DOS.  You
then use RX50INIT or move to the DECmate or Rainbow and use the    
FORMAT command or whatever.)  Thus, all that FDFORMAT has done at
this point is to verify that a previously formatted disk is indeed   
readable. 

    If FDFORMAT gets even a single error for any reason, it will 
change over to an actual low-level format mode.  This is noticeable
in that it runs much faster.  The resultant diskette is the
unreliable type described above.  Using the /U switch will force this
to happen as well, but is a normal feature of this switch.  Also
using the /W switch to rewrite the prior contents of the sector also
works, but since the sectors are reformatted, the same problem
results.  The /Q "quick" format works fine, since this isn't really a
format, rather a directory initialization.   

    An additional problem with the usage described above is that even
though the /Y:2 option was given, it is ignored.  The unreliable   
disk, when actually formatted, does apply the /Y:2 option to the new
disk format, so the stagger is now present, but FDFORMAT attempts to
merely verify the format in this usage to avoid formatting.  The
stagger/slide factor is not checked for, and can be any value.  The
disk will not be reformatted merely because it was a different
stagger; of course if an error occurs it will be reformatted with the
designated value. 
    So, FDFORMAT as currently released is of no useful value to any  
RX50 user, since the reliability suffers so terribly.  It should be
abandoned until the author or someone else fixes it for our RX50    
purposes.  

    Additionally, some users report problems getting the FDREAD/FDR88
programs to load properly, preventing FDFORMAT's use entirely (except
for "vanilla" PC formats).     

    Hopefully, the author can be contacted for fixes to this 
otherwise useful program.   

22DSK138      

    This is a useful package for converting many CP/M formats to/from
MS-DOS.  The DECmate and Rainbow are directly supported and can be
set as the default CP/M types.  The program can be configured for use
with the TEAC FD-55F drives which are essentially two-sided RX50   
types.  (FD-55GFV and GFR can be configured as FD-55F equivalent.) 
The program can run on an XT configured with HD or FD-55F drives as
well.  Note that FD-55F doesn't require a 3-speed floppy controller,
thus any XT can have an FD-55F added on if necessary.
    
22DISK also formats the CP/M disks it handles, so RX50's can be      
formatted directly.  As a high-level consequence, a CP/M directory
initialization is also performed.  The resulting disk is usable
anywhere an RX50 can go, and is quite reliable.      

Note that there are no formatting options as in FDFORMAT, just a
standard low-level-format RX50.  But a reliable standard format is
better than an unreliable "better" format.  So, this is a recommended
way to format RX50 on a PC.  
(It is conceivable that FDFORMAT "behaves" correctly on FD-55F    
drives, which are theoretically supported by both programs.  If the
disks prove reliable, then the other advantages of FDFORMAT can be
applied in this particular case.)       

RAINDOS 1.12    

For MS-DOS DECmate and Rainbow users, there is an alternate route:
RAINDOS is a device driver from the same vendor as 22DISK, and    
apparently incorporates the same low-level disk support. 

Unlike RX50DRVR, RAINDOS can work correctly with CHKDSK and most
importantly DOS's FORMAT command.  You still get a standard low-level
RX50, but the resultant DOS structure is entirely compatible with 
DECmate and Rainbow MS-DOS, so programs like RX50INIT aren't         
required.  Further, since DOS's FORMAT command was used, any actual
errors will be incorporated into the FAT structure, so diskettes with
bad spots can be used.  (RX50INIT does a no-check perfect directory
initialize.  FDFORMAT does check for errors, but records them in the
incompatible PC-like DOS structure that has to be replaced for DEC
compatibility, so you have to observe that FDFORMAT found no errors,
and must reject disks with errors.)  The manual claims there is the
same FD-55F support as in 22DISK.

RAINDOS has several problems:  

It doesn't work under DR DOS.  All but the FORMAT command actually do
work there, but attempts to format a diskette terminate with the
error message "Drive already locked to another program".    

It doesn't work with DOS 4 and 5 booted to the A: floppy which is
also the drive used by RAINDOS for its RX50 operations, unless DOS is
used exclusively on 360K diskettes.  As with other floppy-based    
systems, there are times when you get a message like "mount a    
diskette containing \COMMAND.COM in drive A: and press ENTER".  This
is perfectly normal for this limited environment.  The problem is   
that if you have HD drives, (most machines have HD A: drives), then
you would prefer to read HD diskettes on them.  Once booted up and in
the mentioned situation, all further attempts at using an HD floppy
yield a GENERAL FAILURE error message that will not clear.  You can
mount a low-density floppy to get COMMAND.COM reloaded, but all
further access to the A: drive disallows HD diskettes.

For hard-disk DOS 4 and 5 users, none of this is a problem in      
general, but since I use DR DOS 6, I had to boot a DOS 4 or 5 floppy
:-(.  

Overall, if the goal is merely to format RX50 media, 22DISK is the
best route since it runs under any PC-based DOS system.  For many  
users, RAINDOS is even better, but clearly not for all users.  

When/if FDFORMAT gets fixed, it will be a better way through that   
portion of the problem.  BTW, RX50DRVR, while not able to format,
does run under DR DOS 6, as does RX50INIT.  RX50INIT cannot run under
DOS 4 and DOS 5.  RX50DRVR has some quirky problems partially  
avoidable there as well.  There is also word that RX50DRVR is being
upgraded to support formatting and DOS 4 and 5's CHKDSK.  It    
currently can be used with DR DOS's CHKDSK as well as DOS 3.x. 

Apparently, RX50 support is hardly a "static" issue :-).

   --  Charles Lasner   lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu  

                       **************************

Q12. Is there a way to copy RX50s on an MSDOS computer?  

I have down-loaded Sydex's teledisk, and have found it to exceed my
expectations in some useful ways.    

For starters, all of my attentions are based on the problems of distributing
RX50 diskettes not necessarily in stock format, and not yet having any
satisfactory way of creating the necessary disks. 

Background:   

There are several desirable variant formats for RX50 that have been discussed
elsewhere.  The only known program to create them is FDFORMAT for PC's.  While
this freeware program is generally quite good, it has a few crucial bugs that
make it unsuitable for RX50 usage.  It is conceivable that this will be
solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create
usable disks, but in any case, the use of all obvious parameters yields disks
that are flakey on some RX50's, and downright unreadable on others.  In
addition, these disks are so messed up that a DECmate can't even WRITE on the
disks and read back what it just wrote reliably!  Yet,  his isn't a media
problem because it can be demonstrated that the problem disappears by
low-level format of the same diskette with either Sydex's RAINDOS or 22DISK
packages.  (Note that *some* RX50 systems using some newer-designed controllers
and/or higher revision drives and/or RX50-compatibility modes on different
drives have little or no problems with these FDFORMATted diskettes; indeed
the diskettes are fine on a PC; there's some low-level detail that's incorrect
about FDFORMATted diskettes.  Some parameter is being set to a PC-acceptable
value that doesn't center on RX50's requirements.  Perhaps this will be
uncovered at a later time obviating this entire discussion.  Until such a    
time, FDFORMAT cannot be used to create RX50 diskettes that are readable on   
*all* RX50 systems.  FDFORMAT   so has a few other operational bugs, such as 
incorrect recognition of certain I/O errors, etc., but these are exception
cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.)   

The reason why FDFORMAT is desirable is that it is the only known program
capable of creating the variant RX50 formats where the format must be  
done with interleave and stagger factors, especially if the disk must have
one with interleave and stagger factors, especially if the disk must have
"zones" where the format changes.  For example, to create a disk best suited
for DECmate OS/278 usage, the following *TWO* commands should be given:    

FDFORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 /I:2 
FDFORMAT A: /T:78 /N:10 /1 /Y:2   

The first command creates a disk with an interleave of 2:1 and a stagger of 
2 throughout.  The second command changes tracks 0-77 to have 1:1 interleave
and a stagger of 2 throughout.      

When OS/278 is copied onto such a diskette, the "slushware" tracks are read 
in much faster than on standard RX50 diskettes, and all access to the rest of
the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes
the software's lack of stagger mapping.  But since the software does map the
sector order into a 2:1 interleave, the hardware order must stay in 1:1  
interleave sequence.    

This would be a nice disk to use for the intended purpose, but many DECmates
will be unable to read this diskette.  Literally, it will get a CRC error
on *every* sector!  Furthermore, if you attempt to write an image of the
software onto this diskette, it will get a CRC error on *every* sector even
though it just wrote the disk out!

Enter Teledisk to the rescue!    

When I read Teledisk's documentation, I had doubts that it could solve
this problem, because I noticed it could be quite "smart", perhaps *too*
smart!  It claims that it can get around certain copy-protection methods   
by virtue of how it operates, so I figured that it would likely copy the
problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(.  Or, alternatively, it might guess that     
the diskette was an RX50 and proceed to format it in a  tock manner, thus   
destroying the optimization applied by using the two FDFORMAT commands instead
of just using RAINDOS or 22DISK to create stock low-level RX50 diskettes.

Well, I was wrong on both counts!    

Teledisk understands how to maintain sector order, and pointed out the  
change of interleave from 1:1 to 2:1 at track 78, so that problem is   
hurdled.  

Teledisk understands that these sectors should be formatted with apparently
the same parameters as the formatting routines in 22DISK and RAINDOS, so the
resultant disk *is* readable on DECmates!  Of course, this is *not* an
"exact" copy, but rather it is a "better" copy.  Apparently Teledisk only
writes sectors in a "sane" format, and the copy-protection they refer to
is the class of "funny" sector ordering, size, or count, not any lower-level
details.  Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also
within Teledisk, thus since Teledisk recognizes the disk as a 10-sector/track
512 bytes/sector disk, it writes it as would RAINDOS, etc., except Teledisk   
is sensitive to sector ordering unlike the other Sydex programs, etc.    

Thus, the descendent disk is actually *better* than the original.  I can now
therefore distribute diskettes in the intended format for working-copy usage
of the best effort of each diskette :-).    

Additionally, if I modify distribution diskettes to be in their intended
format instead of their original stock format (virtually all diskettes that
need to be distributed are in stock RX50 format, because the need to create
optimal diskette layout is generally newer than the software; indeed, this  
entire effort is to distribute software that performs *better* than the
original!), then the master disks should be copied with Teledisk to create
perfect copie   n one step.        

There are additional advantages:    

Teledisk can also create an MS-DOS file that is the image of the diskette  
in either a rudimentary-compressed or advanced-compressed form.  These files
can be transmitted down the net and then reconstructed on PC-AT's for use
on RX50 targets.  Since they are compressed, this minimizes the overhead 
as well, etc.        

So, Teledisk has made my day :-).

Besides Teledisk there is another option.  You can retreive rt11.zip   
by via anonymous ftp from newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in  
the pub/local directory.   

It produces what appears to be a nice RT-11-like environment on a PC      
for file transfers, etc., but is inferior to Teledisk for the purpose
of making a compacted image of an entire disk as a DOS file.  Since
this is a frill, it can be completely overlooked :-).

And yes, it does Format DD-type media to stock RX50 as advertised.       

This program is written in Turbo Pascal.  It would seem that someone who 
can understand enough TP and the quirky code to call BIOS routines should
incorporate some of RT11.PAS into FDFORMAT (also a TP-based item) since
the format routine works fine while FDFORMAT does not for RX50 as discussed
elsewhere.   

Overall a nice program.   

      -- Charles Lasner  lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu

                         **************************          

Q13. Is an RX50 equivalent to a low density or high density generic floppy?

Just a word about using HD media:

You can't reliably use HD media on an actual RX50, because the coercivity
is too far off in HD media.  It was designed for the higher-frequency   
recording of the "real" 1.2 Meg format (500 KHz) and not the 250 KHz recording
rate of the RX50, which is actually the same as good 'ol DS/DD media (360K
kid of media).  Some revisions of RX50 drive in comination with certain RX 
controllers in some DEC machins fare better than others, but it can be
demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD
media.  

The designated media for RX50 is Maxell MD1DD-RX50 or equivalent, which is
what used to be called "quad" media.  This is well-honed low-density media,
so it is rated for use on 96 TPI (80 track) drives, not just 48 TPI (40 track)
drives as is usual.  Note that MD2D is not MD2DD.  (The 2 just means two-sided
which for all intents and purposes today can be ignored; virtuall *all* media
is actually made double-sided :-).)  The DD means 80-track support, but since
most media are made well-honed, most cheap disks can support 80 tracks anyway.
These disks will *not* cause I/O errors on any RX50!  However, long-term usage
requires the hub rings be removed completely (use alcohol to get the sticky
stuff off, or ask your supplier for no-hub disks!).  Failing to remove
hub rings means eventually the disks will get unreliable sooner than they     
ought to due to registration problems.  All 96 TPI disks have this problem.
Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings!  It is rumored that there is
a "premium" line of diskettes from Fuji apart from their standard line of
inexpensive diskettes that has a specially reinforced hub area, that isn't
a hub ring per se.  If the same mechanism is used in both HD and DD media,
then the DD type would be the best thing today to use with impunity for
RX50.  Clearly the MD1DD or MD2DD or MD1DD or the 3M equivalents are too  
expensive, considering that what we want are the cheapest types of diskettes
with the hub rings never added.  (We don't want to pay more for less!)  

      -- Charles Lasner  lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu   

                         **************************  

Q14.  Is there any way to make a PRO floppy bootable?     

You can build a bootable PRO floppy on an 11/23+, assuming that you have
all the pieces (like the distribution kit). The PROs floppies are called   
DZ and the winny is DW. You also need the PRO's screen driver (it's a     
bit-mapped screen) called PI. Finally, you have to have either RT11FB or 
RT11XM; SJ won't run on it :-(.  

Basically, you should copy (SWAP,RT11XM,DZ,DW,PIX).SYS to the floppy and
then COPY/BOOT:DZ to the floppy. You should then have a bootable RT-11  
diskie for the thing. From there you can format the hard disk (if you copy  
FORMAT.SAV over) and install on the hard disk.  

Roger "I converted a Pro from P/OS to RT-11" Ivie       ivie@cc.usu.edu

Q15.  What's the difference between a microPDP-11 and a Pro?

The first difference is that the microPDP's use the Q-bus, which is well
supported both by DEC and many 3rd parties, while the Pro3xx used the CT-
bus, which was never used for anything else or supported by anybody. 
rather limits the expandability of the Pro3xx...   

->My first guess would be that the microPDP-11 has none of the limitations
->of the Pro.  But then I've heard that the limitations put into the pro
->were to prevent the Pro from taking away from the PDP-11 market.    

True to a degree.  The Pro was intended as a personal engineering
workstation, while the microPDP-11's were aimed largely at embedded,
controller-like applications, and the 'real' PDP-11's for serious expansion
and multi-user environments.  Or so I understood it...;{) One irony of all
this is that the only place I know of anybody using Pro380's in new
installations is as graphics front-ends to microPDP-11's being used as
controllers. 
  Steve Mitchell   steve@seabhag.cps.altadena.ca.us 

                         **************************      

Q16.  Can I run MSDOS on a Pro?

Needs ms-dos like a battleship needs a popgun! However, there are third 
party companies (or were) if memory serves who made 8088 boards for a Pro
so you could run msdos on it as well as P/OS...concurrently, yet!

   Glenn Everhart    Everhart%Arisia.decnet@crd.ge.com  

                         **************************       

Q17.  Where can I get unix for the Pro? 

We have two versions of UNIX running on PDP 11/73's in my lab.
  
The first is UNIX 2.10BSD, which is real BSD UNIX, basically the same as
4.3BSD.  It is available from USENIX in Berkeley, (415) 528-8649. It only
cost us $200 for the media, a TS-11 tape, but we had to prove that we
already had a site license with ATT for UNIX.  It only comes with
installation instructions.  You have to purchase the 4.3BSD documentation
seperately if you want it.  It seems to run fairly well except the network
stuff seems a little slow.  I don't really use the network stuff.   

The second is VENIX (Release D I think), which is a clone.  It is available
from VenturCom in Cambridge, MA, (617) 661-1230.  I am pretty sure they
don't support it anymore but they still may sell it. We have been using it
for quite a while (> 7 years) and it seems to work pretty well.  It doesn't
include any network stuff, but does support standard peripherals.  We have
done alot of patching to the kernal over the years, so if you get it and
need some help drop me a note.

By the way, UNIX 2.10BSD comes with the complete source code for UNIX,
which I have found great to have access to although it is 70 Mb worth of
stuff.   

       Mark S. Spector            mark@photon.mit.edu  
From: sms@wlv.imsd.contel.com (Steven M. Schultz)    

                  ---------------------------------------- 
      Second Distribution of Berkeley PDP-11 Software for UNIX
                             Release 2.11      
                       (Revised February 1992)    


     The USENIX Association is pleased to announce the distribution of    
a   new   release  of  the  "Second  B  keley  Software  Distribution"  
(2.11BSD).     
     This release will be handled by USENIX, and is available  to  all
V7,  System III, System V, and 2.9BSD licensees.  The Association will  
continue to maintain the non-profit price of $200.  The  release  will
consist  of  two  2400  ft.  1600 bpi tapes or one TK50 tape cartridge
(approximately 80M) and approximately 100 pages of documentation.

     If you have questions about the distribution of the  release,  or
require  800 bpi tapes, please contact USENIX.  At present a split I/D
machine is required, thus 2.11BSD will not run on 23 or 23+ based sys-
tems.  The USENIX address and phone number are as follows:
                       
     2.11BSD
     USENIX Association
     2560 Ninth St. Suite 215  
     Berkeley, CA  94710    
     +1-510-528-8649

USENIX may also be contacted by electronic mail at: 

     {ucbvax,decvax}!usenix!office  
     office@usenix.org  

If you have technical questions  about        the  release,  please  contact
Steven M. Schultz at:      

     wlbr!wlv!sms    
     sms@wlv.imsd.contel.com  (yes, a bit of a misnomer, will be changing
                                it one of these days)
     
                    **************************
     
Q18. I just installed venix on my Pro.  What is the root password?
     
The root password is 'gnomes', and the games password is 'dale'.  I think
'dale' is also the password to one other account.  The password to the
uucp account is probably 'uucp'.  Anyway, you can change them once you
get in as root.                   
     
To login via the COM port, edit /etc/ttys and change the 01com1 to
11com1 for 9600 baud null modem.  (Other speeds require other codes   
in the second byte.)  The first byte turns on the getty listener on
that port.  Then do: kill -2 1 to get the init to reread the /etc/ttys
(or just reboot).  You will then be able to login via the com port
via a null modem at 9600 baud.      

Venix does an fsck upon boot.  This may be why your HD head is seeking?
                         
Enjoy!

      --Barry Kort  barry@chezmoto.ai.mit.edu

                         **************************    

Q14.  I have a Pro running a form of unix and I no longer need or want it.
I guess I'll just throw it out.
I have an old copy of xxx unix for the Pro in a closet somewhere and I'm
going to clean out the closet and discard all the old Pro stuff.   

DON'T DISCARD A UNIX PACKAGE FOR THE PRO!  Please post a note in      
comp.sys.dec.micro and offer it to someone.  On the whole very few copies
of unix were sold for the Pro computers making it a somewhat difficult OS
to get a copy of.  In the past 4 years or so whenever I've mentioned unix
to anyone who owned a Pro they've always responded that they were "dying to
get a copy".
     
Q15.  P/OS says I have lots of space on my disk yet whenever I try
to copy a file I get a message saying out of disk space, please
delete some files and try again.  Why?       

Most OSs put pieces of a new file in chunks of empty disk space, 
P/OS and RSX-11M-PLUS can do this for data files but they require
a single contiguous space for each task file or for other files 
which are designated "Contiguous". This means that if you delete   
many small files you create "holes" or empty spaces on your disk.  
When you copy new files that must be contiguou  to your disk, P/OS
will copy those files after the last file on your disk until your  
disk is full. Then if it cannot find a single contiguous space to
fit the new file it will tell you your disk is full even though you
may have previously deleted enough files to create space for the
new file. I do not know if it is possible to "pack" a disk to make
a single large contiguous space out of many small holes. Can
someone answer this?

    Chaim Dworkin     chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu    
    Robert "Bob" Gezelter  gezelter@rlgsc.com
                         **************************  

Q16.  How do I reclaim disk space occupied by "invisible" files?

Sometimes, as  when you  abort a  compile or  link,  temporary files that
were created  will not be erased.  These temporary files do  not have  a
directory  entry -- and hence, they will not appear  in a  directory
listing.  The process that created this type of file did so by manipulating
the master index file directly.   

Ordinarily, you  will not be able to tell that these invisible files exist.
There  is one  Toolkit utility,  however,  that makes these  files visible:
VFY (file structure verification utility).

You may  use the  following VFY procedure on any PRO hard disk or diskette.
VFY  will  search  the  volume  and  place  any invisible file  entries
into  the [1,3] directory.  Hence, you should create  a directory  [1,3]
first  or VFY (while showing you what  invisible files  it  found)  will
leave  the  files invisible.

Once the  files are  placed into [1,3], you may delete them to recover
volume space.  These files are typically scratch files and deleting them 
will cause no problems.   

Enter the  following to  initiate the  search  for  invisible ("lost")    
files:     

             $ RUN $VFY   
               VFY>/LO 

VFY will  then look for the lost files.  If any are found, VFY will list
them on  the screen.   When  VFY is  done, it  will return the VFY> prompt
To quit from VFY, do a CTRL-Z:  
               VFY>^Z        
               $ +          

The found  files, as  may have strange names and any
block size (even zero).    

>From: sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu

                               **************************

Q17.  How do I set the printer port baud rate from DCL?
               
$ SET TERM TT2: /SPEED:(nnnn,nnnn)

          where nnnn,nnnn  represents transmit  and receive  baud rates.   
          To determine the current baud rate, do:
$ SHOW SPEED/TT2:
               
>From: sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu

                         **************************

Q18.  How do I enter DCL commands that are more than one line in length?

Use a  hyphen (-)  before the line's carriage return.  In DCL, the command
is not  executed until  a line ending in <CR> not preceeded by a hyphen is
encountered.  No DCL line can be more than 250 characters.

>From: sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu    

                         ************************** 
          
Q19.  How do I set protection on a file?
               
$ SET PROT <filespec> [/qualifier(s)] <code>

        /Qualifiers:
   
               /DATE=dd-mmm-yy
               /SINCE=dd-mmm-yy   
               /THROUGH=dd-mmm-yy
               /TODAY     
               /EXCLUDE=filespec  (don't forget a version specification)  

        <Code> is in the following format:

             (SYSTEM:RWED,OWNER:RWED,GROUP:RWED,WORLD:RWED)
                         
          where SYSTEM, OWNER, GROUP and WORLD are user types (since the
          PRO is  usually used  as a  single-user system  the GROUP  and
          WORLD types are seldom relevant) and RWED represent four kinds
          of access to files:        

               R    file can be read/run, copied, printed
               W    file can be written to
               E    user can change amount of disk space alloted to file
               D    file can be deleted
               
          Example:   
               
          $ SET PROT TEST.*;*/SINCE=01-JAN-88/EXCL=*.OBJ;* (S:RWE,O:WRE)
          
>From: sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu
               
                **************************
          
Q20.  How do I reassign a device's LUN after the task has been built?   
          
     o    Install the task: $ INSTALL <task>

               o    Assign the new LUN to the task:      
                    $ ASSIGN/TASK=<install_name> <device:> LUN
               
o    Run the task:  $ RUN <install_name>
If  you  want  your  task       DATABASE  (install  name
          DATABA), which  currently uses  LUN 3  to write  to a file, to
          write the data to the printer, you would perform the following
          steps --

             $ INSTALL DATABASE
               $ ASSIGN/TASK=DATABA TT2: 3         
               $ RUN DATABA
     TT2: is the device name for the printer.
               
>From: sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu
               
          **************************        

Q21.  How do I Run RMD  (SHOW MEMORY) from a second terminal?  Note: This
requires a BCC08 PR1/CONSOLE cable.
          
     $ INSTALL/NOREMOVE APPL$DIR:RMD.TSK/TASK=RMDT2 
               $ ASSIGN/TASK=RMDT2 TT2: 1    
               $ ASSIGN/TASK=RMDT2 TT2: 2
               $ SET TERMINAL:TT2:/VT125
                 SPAWN RUN RMDT2 
                 

          The above  reassigns RMD's  LUNs to  point to the TT2: device.
          RMD requires  a VT100-type  terminal setting  to run;  you may
          substitute the  /VT125 qualifier  with  one  that  more  aptly
          describes your terminal.

          Note:  You may still use SHOW MEMORY on the main terminal.

>From: sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu   

                       **************************
               
Q22.  I'm running P/OS 2.0 and can't get it to recognize my 20 Mb drive.
               
You must apply a P/OS 2.0 Patch for 20 MEG HD
               
Perform the  following ZAP  to alter  the POS.SYS  file on the PROSYSTEMS2
volume  diskette.   This ZAP works for version 2.0 (not 2.0A)  of P/OS.
It  causes the system to recognize a 20 meg hard disk (the Seagate ST225 is
the one you want).      
          
Remove any write-protect tab from the PROSYSTEMS2 diskette and place it  in
drive 1.  You should copy the file named below to another diskette  in case
you make  a mistake and want to try again.   (A separate  copy is suggested
because ZAP alters the file directly -- it does not create a new version).

Type the  following in the Toolkit (user entries are in bold). The ^Z is a
control-Z.               

               $ SET DEF DZ1:[ZZSYS] 
               $ RUN $ZAP
               ZAP> POS.SYS/AB  
               _162:770/
               _000004 
               _162:776/ 
               _001146   
               _163:004/
               _114577
               _162:756/ 
               _000240    
               _^Z  

             $ +

The diskette  is now  ready to be used.  Place the 20-meg disk into the PRO
and format/load P/OS using the altered diskette.
               
Note:   P/OS may give a complaint regarding the hard disk when you boot up
to format the hard disk, but it should say it will try to  rectify the
problem and  continue.   After the system continues, you should not see any
error messages again. 
               
>From: sjs@gnv.ifas.ufl.edu
               
                **************************
               
Q23.  I was given a Pro-350 by an office that was junking it and when I
booted it up it asked for a password.  I don't know any passwords.  How can
I break past that and delete the password file?
               
Well, I've never really dealt with P/OS, but a long, long time ago I was
involved with a group that had a similar problem with a PDP-11/60 that we  
bought from another group at the site. It ran RSX-11M, but we didn't get
any passwords from the group from which we bought the machine. After a lot
of poking about in manuals, I found a way to get to the password file,  
which in that version of RSX-11M was not encrypted.    

While the machine was booting, executing the startup command file, I
pressed ^C. That gave me an MCR prompt at which I could type a command.
Since the machine was executing the startup command file, the MCR prompt
was attached to the system account. In an obscure manual that I no longer
have and don't remember very well, I found the name of the password file.
The MCR command that I issued, then, typed the password file on the
console.    

Since P/OS is related to RSX-11M, it might work. Wish I could remember the
name of the account file, though...

   Roger Ivie   slsw2@cc.usu.edu 


>From: kalisiak@acsu.buffalo.edu (christophe m kalisiak)         
In article <1991Apr16.134937.47433@cc.usu.edu> slsw2@cc.usu.edu writes:
>While the machine was booting, executing the startup command file, I pressed
>^C. That gave me an MCR prompt at which I could type a command. Since the
>machine was executing the startup command file, the MCR prompt was attached
>to the system account. In an obscure manual that I no longer have and don't
>remember very well, I found the name of the password file. The MCR command
>that I issued, then, typed the password file on the console.       

What was the command? I would say that if one were to delete the
password file, then you could probably start from scratch...
Don't quote me on it. 

>Since P/OS is related to RSX-11M, it might work. Wish I could remember the
>name of the account file, though...

[0,0]RSX11.SYS


Chris Kalisiak     
V076N3W7@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu   
kalisiak@acsu.buffalo.edu  
To break into P/OS, if you can get to a Pro (running p/os 2.0 or later at 
least) that you can use, there is in the menu system a facility for writing
a "password floppy". If you boot the Pro and have that floppy loaded, its'
password will override the one on the hard disk. I used this technique
once, but it's been long enough ago I don't recall more detail. I believe
that some help exists on the system, though, as I had no manuals to infer
this from at the time. (Someone had left the company and his pro was
unusable till I freed it.) Doing this will also set a password on the pro  
you make the floppy on, but you can reset that after the floppy is safely
written.
   I don't particularly recommend passwords on personal Pros due to
the extreme inconvenience they cause.

       Glenn Everhart    EVERHART@arisia.dnet.ge.com

                         **************************

Q24.  Can anyone out there tell me the pinout for the monitor/keyboard  
connector on a DecPro 350?     

From "The Professional 300 Series Technical Manual", I have  
(p. 8-5): 
J1 Pin-outs for the monochrome monitor:      

1-3  not used 
4    Ground ( video signal ground potential )  
5,6  Ground ( operational voltage ground potential )
7,8  +12 Vdc ( operational voltage input )  
9-11 not used             
12   M Video ( composite video )
13   Ground ( tied to 5 and 6 )                     
14   Data Receive ( serial data line from the keyborad output to the
     system box, via J3 )                          
15   Data Send ( serial data line from the system box output to the
     keyboard, via J3 )    

 J3 pin-outs, for the keyboard:

1  Data Send ( via J1, pin 15 )  Serial line for output from the system box
   to the keyboard  
2  +12 Vdc ( output of operational voltage to the keyboard
   ( from J1, pins 7 and 8 )
3  Ground (from J1, pins 5,6,13)  Operational voltage ground.
4  Data Receive (via J1, pin 14)  Serial line for input from the system box.


 I could not find equivalent information about a VR241 ( color )
monitor. However, there must be some relation, as the Extended Bitmap
Option board can drive either, without hardware changes. You might
be able to get more out of the manual if you can obtain one:
The ordering or part number is:   
EK-PC350-TM-001
 
John Erbland   erbland@hartford.bitnet
Hubert Bartels     hgb@catalina.opt-sci.arizona.edu
   
                         **************************       
   
Q25. What is the pinout for the video port?   

Professional 380 video-port pinout:

Pin:                            Description:   
1,2,3,4,5,6                     Ground         
7,8                             +12 Volts       
9                               Blue  
10                              Green
11                              Red
12                              Monochrome
13                              Monitor Present (don't know what it's for,
                                or where it has to be connected to.)
14                              Keyboard transmit  
15                              Keyboard receive
                         
I got this info from our local DEC branch. I had to build my own cable and
it works fine.   

Arno Griffioen         v882246@si.hhs.nl

                         **************************

Q26.  What are the pin-outs for the RX50 floppy controller?

1,3,etc GND           Ground  
 2      TG43            Track greater than 43
 4      N/U             Not used          
 6      SEL3 L          Select for drive 3 (no  used, near as I can tell) 
 8      INDEX L         Index   
10      SEL0 L          Select 0         
12      SEL1 L          Select 1         
14      SEL2 L          Select 2 (N/U)
16      MOTOR ON L      Motor on   
18      DIR L           Direction
20      STEP L          Step
22      WRT DATA L      Write data      
24      WG L            Write gate
26      TK00 L          Track 00                   
28      WRT PRT L       Write protect
30      RD DATA L       Read Data   
32      SIDE 0 H        Side select     (Note: H vs L, so a transitor needed)
34      READY L         Drive Ready

     Warner Losh      imp@solbourne.com 
 

                     **************************


Q27.  I booted my Pro and got an error code.  What does it mean?

New Pro 350 owners are so worried about the error codes I have reproduced
the most common ones here.  These are taken from the P/OS handbook.  Note
that unless you want to buy new components all you can do is reseat
connections!    


Code   Problem area         Corrective Action

000100  P/OS keyboard handler
      1: Check cables and connections   
      2: Reseat option modules in card cage.
      3: Reset all IC's in sockets on system module.
      5: Replace system module                     
      6: Reload Operating system.

000200  Terminal driver         [deleted]     

000300  Executive/general       If error occured on first access of RX or RD
subsystem, check that subsystem is in order:     

     1: Check cables and reseat controller in card cage
     2: Replace Drive
     3: Replace RX or RD subsystem controller
If error not found on first access of mass storage, goto 000200 corrective
action. 

000400 System startup processing  
      
000500 Terminal driver  
  (video and printer port)       

Second line Error Codes         

0000    IOT in system state     
000001  Stack overflow or cannot install task CBOOT
000002  Trace Trap or breakpoint or cannot spawn task CBOOT
000003  Illegal instruction trap or cannot spawn task CBOOT
000004  Odd address or other trap to 4
000005  Segment fault 
000006  A task on P/OS without a parent aborted
000007  EMT trap or required file not found         
000010  TRAP trap

   Todd Miller          tmiller@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu

                         **************************
  
Q28.  Are there any pro BBSs?

Billys Place  (213)837-0892
Login ID is 1000 and password is 'moving target', from there youll recive a
personal ID. Supports the RT-11 SIG, and has the RT-11 SIG library online
for downloading (youll probably need the DECUS catalogue to help you).
VTCOM/TRANSF, XMODEM, and Kermit seem to be supported, Ive successfully
connected at 2400 (which is the highest-lowest, I dunno:-)

RSX BBS    (612)777-7664       
Supports RSX on the PDP-11 but since the Pro also runs RSX there is a Pro
file area discussion area.  sysop is Bruce Mitchell.

Intellicon Data Systems    (401) 884-9002            
Contact sysadmin@idsvax.i!rayssd!idsvax!sysadmin
for information on their system.                   

    Chaim Dworkin        chaim@linc.cis.upenn.eael P. Deignan   mpd@anomaly.sbs.com
    Billy D'Augustine    Azog-Thoth@cup.portal.com

                         ***********    

Q29.  I can't get my hands on an ethernet connection for my Pro.  Is there
any alternative?  

 2ith SL/IP so a serial network connection is
 2.11BSD comes wital network connection is
possible.  Slow, but better than nothing.    

    Steve Mitchell   steve@seabhag.cps.altadenECnet for P/OS supports serial lines. These connections are quite  
usable, provided the parameters are set correctly on the V connecting to.
    
Robert "Bob" Gezelter  gezelter@rlgsc.com
    
                   **************************
    
Q30.  What is the latest version of Kermit available for the Pro?

Pro KERMIT is actually RSX Kermit; there are cone code
which make it recognize that it is running on a Professional rather
than a PDP-11.  The current version is T3.60 (witt support)
777-7664.  T3.60 works correctly on a Pro380 under P/OS er
RSX-11M-Plus V4 and higher - I'm using it now in terminal emulation
as a matter of fact.  There are no problems with moviMS to RSX using this version.  

If you have T3.60, and still encounter problems, try SET ATTRIBUTE OFF
before transfemits do not recognize attribute packets.
    
  Steve Mitchell   steve@grian.cps.altadena.ca.us
Also run Kermit-12 on the PRO.  All Kermit-12 files are
available at watsun.cc.columbia.edu in the /kermit/d/k12*.* area 
via.  PDP-8/DECmate assembler versions of the ENCODE
and DECODE programs are there as k12enc.pal and k12dec.pal   
respectiv[23;21H77
      -- Charles Lasner (author of Kermit-12) 
   lasnmbia.edu home of Kermit-12 and other fine Kermits.

                         **************************     

Q31. mes with one serial port standard.        Does anyone know if
it's possible to add a  econd serial port or additional ports?  ly the Pro 350 and the Rainbow have two serial ports as the printer
port is a serial port also. The hardware is bi-directional may
be lacking in the drivers. I don't believe the printer port had full modem
control on it ( I think it had DSR/DTR ).   nd of the Pro 350's lifetime there was a 4 (?) port serial
unit released for it. I doubt many would have been sold. Sorry, I dthe part number.
Malcolm Dunnett               dunnett@mala.bc.caThat 4 port unit was the Real Time Interface with 2 serial, 1 parallel, and
an IEEE 488 bus (Pc3xx-aa).  Dec was selling them  at
fall special for $100 each last year.   

Or it could be the PC3XC-BA Quad Serial Line unit described in the guideP/OS device drivers.  4 ports to 38.4Kbaud, two with modem control
attached to a flat ribbon cabl  that snaked out from insideK

    Todd M. Miller                tmiller@caos.caos.kun.nl
    Paul S. Kleppner              paulk@pkleppner
  
           **************************      

Q32.  What is DDCMP, Digital Data Communications Message Protocol?
    
Digital D Message Protocol(DDCMP) is the network
protocol covering Rainbows, PRO's, Microvaxes, and VAXes that
brings network access ions) over a cable or 
modem.  

For those interested, I present here an abridged version of "Technical
Aspects oion" chapter 18 "DDCMP" by John E. McNamara, 1977.
Although I have not tried, it seems to be everything you need to program  

DDCMP Message Queuing System:     
    
  "In the DDCMP protocol, any pair of stations that exchange messages
wit those messages sequentially starting with message
number 1.  Each successive data message is numbered using the next number
 256.  Thus a long sequence of messages would be numbered
sequ6.  Thus a long sequence of messages would be numbered
1,2,3,... 254,255,0,1,... The numbering applies to each direction separample, station A might be sending its messages 6,7,8 to station B while
station B is sending its messages 5,6,7 to station A. point
configuration where a control station is engaged in two-way communication with
10 tributary stations, there are 20 difnumber sequences
involved - one for messages from each of the 10 tributaries to the control
station and one for messages frotion to each of the 10
tributaries.    

        Whenever a station transmits a message to another station, it assignsequential message number to that message and places that number in
the "Sequence" field of that message header.  In addition tcounter for sequentially numbering the messages which it sends, the station
also maintains a counter of the message numbers rher    
station.  It updates that counter whenever a message is received with a 
message number exactly one higher than the ed message number.
The contents of the received message counter are inclueded in the "Response"
45
4NEWS> 


The contents of the received message counter are inclueded in the "Response"
field of the message being te to the other sta   n the highest
sequenced message that has been received.   

        When a station receives a me error, that station   
sends a negative acknowledge (NAK) message back to the transmitting station.
DDCMP does not require ement for each message, as  he number 
in the respons  field of a normal header, or in either the special NAK or
positive ac message, specifies the sequence number of the
last good message received.  For example, if messages 4,5, and 6 have been
rehe last time an acknowledgement was sent, and message 6 is   
bad, the NAK message specifies the number 5 which says "messagesod and 6 is bad."  When DDCMP operates in full-duplex mode, the line does
not have to be turned around; the NAK is simply addesages for the
transmitter.   

        When a station receives a message that is out of sequence, it does not
responThe transmitting station will detect this from the
62
7

NEWS> 


respond to the transmitting station will detect this from the
response field of the messages which it receives, and if the "reply wait"   es before the transmitting station receives an acknowledgement, the
transmitting station will send a "REP" message.  The REP me sequence number of the most recent unacknowledged message sent to the  
distant station.  If the receiving station has correthe message
referred to in the REP message (as well as the messages proceding it), it
replies to the REP by sending a positi (ACK).  If it has
not received the message referred to in sequence, it sends a NAK containing 
the number of the last messareceive correctly. The transmitting
station will then retransmit all data messages after the message specified
in the NAK.       The numbering system for DDCMP messages permits there to be up to 
255 unacknowledged messages outstanding, a useful fing on
high delay circuits such as those using satellites.
        
DDCMP Message Format:    


 -  -  -  -----  ----  --------  --------  -------  -----  -----------  -----
|lag||Repsonse||Sequence||Address||CRC 1||Information||CRC 2|
|Y||Y||L|| 14  || 2  || 8 bits || 8 bits || 8 bits||  16 ||up to N||N||A||bits ||bits| --------  --------  ------- | bits||  8-bit    || bits|
| || ||S| -----  ----                           cters| ----- 
| || ||S|                                                  -----------    
 -  -  -   
                          | Only Data & Maintenance
                                                    Message types have info &
                                 CRC 2 fields |     

SYN is a sync character.
Classes:  10000001 = Data Messages (SOH)
          00000101 = Acknowledgement (ENQ)
 Negative Acknowledgement (DLE)
Count: Used for Data and Maintenance messages to indicate the number
of characters that will er and form the information part
of the message.  In control messages, the first 8 bits designate the    
type of controllast 6 0's (except for NAK which uses       
the low 6 bits for a reason:   
        BCC Header Error    000001          BCC Data Error      000010                  
        Rep. Response       000011                         
        Bu00100
        Reciever Overrun    000101                
        Message too Long    000110                  
      at Error 000111                  

Flag:  
        Contains the quick sync and select flags, bits 0 and 1 respectively
sed to inform the receiving station that the message will
be followed by sync characters; the receiver may wish to set its asschronous receiver hardware into "sync search" and syncs will be discarded
until the first character of the next message arrivehis
is to permit the receiving station to engage any hardware sync-stripping logic
it might have and prevent it from fillingth sync characters.

It also warns the receiver that there may only be a few SYNs and no DEL` (377)
Why the DEL`? Becausetop' bit set. This helps force the
UART to bitsync corectly with the incoming data.
        
The select flag is used to ithis is the last message
which the transmitting station is going to transmit and that the addressed
station is now permittedmitting.  This flag is useful in
half-duplex or multipoint configurations, where transmitters need to get
turned on and off.3;21H30

The Response field:   
The response field contains thelast message correctly received.
This field is used in Data Message and in the positive and negative acknowledge
types of Cots function should be evident from the preceding
discussion of sequence control.    

The Sequence field:
The sequend in Data Messages and in the REP type of Control    
Message.  In a Data Message, it contains the sequence number of the messd by the transmitting station.  In a REP message, it is used as part
of the question: "Have you received all messages up throur
(specify) correctly?".  

The Address Field:       
The address field is used to identify the tributary stationsystems and is used in message both to and from the tributary.  In point
to point operation, a station sends address "1" but 21H47

In addition to the positive and negative acknowledgement and REP types of      
Control Message, there are also scknowledge Control Messages.
These are used to place the station which receives them in a known state.
In particular, they isage counters, timers, and other counters.
The start ackknowledge message indicates that this has been accomplished.

Maies:  These are typically bootstrap messages containing    
load programs in the information field.   


Known Drder is short and higher level operating systems
must have a buffer of the appropriate size ready on relatively short notice.
ller                    tmiller@caos.caos.kun.nl            
Paul                              zrepachol@cc.curtin.edu.au  7m64
**************************      

Q33.  I have an RD-something.  What kind of dr        e is it?  What kintroller do I need?   

RQDX1 supports RD51 , RD52 , RX50 .
RQDX2 supports RD51 , RD52 , RD53 , RX50.  
RQDX3 sup2 , RD53 , RD54, RX50,
               RD31 , RD32 , RD33*,       RX33.


  For reference:   

  RX33 - Teac FD-55G
  RX50 - DEC built 800KB dual 5.25" floppy                  
built 800KB dual 5.25" floppy                  
  RD31 - Seagate ST225
  RD32 - Seagate ST251-1
  RD51 - Seagate ST-412         
  RD52 - Quantum Q540 / Atasi 3046 / [almost] Evotek ET-5540
  RD53 - Micropolis 1325 with jumper R7 inserted (133[K
  RD54 - Maxtor XT-2190    


The Seagate ST506 is an *RD50*, which was never supported on
any of the RQDX controlleimarily on the Rainbow.
               
    Tim Thompson             xxwwxx@micom.com  "Starkle, Starkle little tk E. Levy             LEVY@FNALD.FNAL.GOV
    Bill Pechter             bill@pyrite.nj.pyramid.com

             ***********************

Q35. I tried to plug in t my Pro was powered up
     and now the keyboard doesn't work.
  
Take out the Mother Board and inspect the area near tr.
Look for a meltdown on one of the leads and bridge it with a dollop
of solder or a jumper wire.

To remove the Mother B latch at the front of the HD and
floppy drives and slide them forward.  Uplug the ribbon cables to the
card cage, and unscrs on the front of the card 
cage.  Unplug the power cable and slide the Mother Board out.
    
The meltdown can occur iect the Video Connector with
the power on.  If you misalign the connector, you can short the power
lead and meltdown the lea Pin 1 or 2) to the keyboard.
                         
   -- Barry Kort barry@michael.ai.mit.edu
                 Computer
faqs

Date: 3 Sep 93 17:26:34 -0500            
 been about 8 or 9 months since I last posted my DEC Pro-350
faq so I just sent it out again.  It comes in two parts and consi the major discussion that has taken place in this newsgroup
since around 1988.  I used to post the faq every 4 months or so b Pro users is dropping rapidly and I am not getting any
contributions of material either.

If you have any relavant materialthe faq or if you have
any corrections, please mail to me.

Enjoy reading.

Chaim
Date: 4 Sep 1993 06:46:06 GMT

Just updating my section of this FAQ a bit:

     ================================
>                         DEC Professional Computer
>                         Frequeestions
>                          and Miscellaneous Trivia
>                      ================================
>   ed by: Chaim Dworkin  chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu
>-------------------   -------------------------------------------------------- course, nowadays, a copy of Media Master from Intersecting
>Concepts will do the job on any AT clone...

But this may not eest way to go about it, and it costs money
besides.  The sections below address this issue!

>So...PRO users of the world (if there are any of you left out there)
>UNITE!  Le can brainstorm an effective way to coax Digital
>into releasing the new firmware for the RX50 controller.  If I could
>jusne set of the ROM(s), I would arrange to have
>them duplicated and make them available at cost to anyone else in the
>world ity to format their own diskettes.

Note that this is likely a prototype, and is more likely an 8751 than an
8051.  An 87asted just like an EPROM, so if one copy can
be procured, it most certainly can be duplicated!                              

format an RX50 on my MSDOS computer?   
>
>There are some software packages available which proport to allow
>formattOS 5 1/4" high density drives.  Here is a    
>short review of three of those packages. 
>
>
    I have been playing with 22DSK138.ZIP and RAIND112.ZIP and      
>FDFORM18.ZIP long enough to givnfo regarding 
>Rainbow/DECmate RX50 formatting and related issues.       

And I have some random new info as well me if I correct my
own typoes so they get fixed in the next edition of the FAQ.

>    
>FDFORMAT 1.8  
>  
>some problems with the current release that have always
>been in at least the two previous versions when attempting to format
es.  You use the command:
>
FDFORMAT A: /Y:2 /T:80 /N:10 /H:1   
>
to format for RX50.  The /Y:2 is to force a two-sector stagged up transfer on all systems except -11/pro.  /H:1
>means a one-sided disk.  /N:10 for 10 sectors and /T:80 for 80 
>tracks.
Please note that this FAQ is meant for all DECmate/Rainbow/PRO users, so 
some of the info is not directly of use to PRO peinterests
of all RX50 users, it is provided with all of the relevant details, since
we are talking about RX50 support of DECng PC's, etc.


       resultant disks are marginal, especially to revision A and B 
>RX50 drives.  Symptoms include dataut of the     
>formatter when test reading the diskettes, and the inability to write
>data that won't read back with data CThe problems worsen
>with higher track numbers, but often start right at track 0 or 1.
>Using MD1DD media instead of MD2D mae disk, so this
>was assumed to be the problem.   
67
8

NEWS> 


was assumed to be the problem.   
>
    This has been confirmed as incorrect.     
>
>    There are several bugs in FDFORMAT that directly affect RX50's:
>      
>If the floppy is already formatted without error for all 80 tracks,       
>then FDFORMAT will merely verify readibility on every sector.  Then     
>the directory info is written by ordinary writing (not formatting)
>means as previously discussed.  (Meaning suitable only as a strange
>variant of PC-DOS-specific MS-DOS, not DECmate/Rainbow MS-DOS.  You
>then use RX50INIT or move to the DECmate or Rainbow and use the    
>FORMAT command or whatever.)  Thus, all that FDFORMAT has done at
>this point is to verify that a previously formatted disk is indeed   
>readable. 

What this means is that if a diskette is already low-level formatted, FDFORMAT
will reliably determine that it can read the disk completely.  Since the
84
10%)>

NEWS> 


will reliably determine that it can read the disk completely.  Since the
status line always shows a "V" for Verify in this case, you can be certain
that the diskette is readable.  However, no attempt is being made to confirm
that the stagger/slide and interleave factors match the command line values!
Thus, you still don't precisely know what the diskette looks like!  

>
    If FDFORMAT gets even a single error for any reason, it will   
>change over to an actual low-level format mode.  This is noticeable
>in that it runs much faster.    

And the status line will revert to the "F" for Formatting followed by "V" for
Verifying, which actually goes faster than the reliable verify-reading, because
it turns out that the verify read after the format is in fact flaky, and
often misinterprets returned errors!  In fact, FDFORMAT can be fooled into
believing it correctly formatted *and verified* a damaged diskette readable
nowhere!  Smarter formatters will deal with the very real errors, but
gets fooled!  
101/746 Lines (12%)>

NEWS> 


gets fooled!  

  The resultant diskette is the 
>unreliable type described above.  Using the /U switch will force this      
>to happen as well, but is a normal feature of this switch.  Also 
>using the /W switch to rewrite the prior contents of the sector also
>works, but since the sectors are reformatted, the same problem
>results.  The /Q "quick" format works fine, since this isn't really a
>format, rather a directory initialization.       

Thus, to determine if the diskette is usable, another program has to read
the diskette after the fact.  FDFORMAT itself can be used, since it will  
always attempt (unless /U is invoked) to do the "quick" format (which is       
actually slower!) and you can observe that only "V" for Verify appears  
throughout the verifying, etc.  Alternatively, the diskette can be    
verified with the Norton DT program or the analogous CHKDSK /M feature that
is unique to DR-DOS 5.0 (alas, dropped in 6.0 :-(, but can be lifted from     
there and run under 6.0 if desired :-).) to confirm that it's actually readable
18
5

NEWS> 


there and run under 6.0 if desired :-).) to confirm that it's actually readable
using either FDFORMAT's default MS-DOS layout which differs from DEC's RX50
MS-DOS allocation, or alternatively, use RX50INIT with RAINDOS, or use the
DOS 5.0 or DR-DOS 6.0 FORMAT command through RAINDOS and specify the /Q for
Quick option which will just init the directory for DEC MS-DOS purposes, thus
allowing DT or DR-DOS 5.0's CHKDSK /M to check out the disk as an actual
DEC MS-DOS RX50 diskette.  Either way will ensure the disk is readable; the
latter has the advantage that bad spots will be marked in the MS-DOS directory
should this be the intended usage, and CHKDSK can confirm this was accomplished
either way (indication of bad sectors, etc. of CHKDSK's report).

In any case, if the disks are being prepared on a PC for the purposes of
being brought to a DEC system, it is desirable to check the reliability of
the media and the PC's drive while still at the PC end where it can still be
dealt with, as opposed to being at the DEC system end and being stuck with
bad media, or worse, unreadable copies of programs!  

One good thing FDFORMAT is good for is to weed out bad floppy drives for
35
8

NEWS> 


One good thing FDFORMAT is good for is to weed out bad floppy drives for
the RX50-oriented purposes:     

A PC-specific usage of FDFORMAT is to create disks that actually achieve   
1.48 MBytes on a HD 5.25" diskette normally formatted to 1.2 MBytes.  This   
can be accomplished using the command:   

FDFORMAT A: /Y:2 /T:82 /N:18 /U   

A brief explanation of this command is that it achieve        a 2:1 interleave
diskette where the unreferenced sectors of the other half of the interleave
are used to replace a portion of the gaps normally provided to allow 1:1
interleave usage to successfully find the next sector.  In 2:1 this is  
obviated, so the space can be given back to allowing more sectors.  If the  
drive is truly up to snuff, 18 sectors can fit instead of the normal 15.  The
/Y:2 parameter has the usual meaning.  82 tracks are usually available on
such a disk as well, so that the 5.25" diskette now holds slightly more than
the usual capacity of a 3.5" HD diskette!  (However, the same technique ups
52
20

NEWS> 


the usual capacity of a 3.5" HD diskette!  (However, the same technique ups
the 3.5" diskette's capacity to 1.72 MBytes!)

If the drive can't handle this format, it likely can't properly format  
RX50 media either, since both formats depend on minimal drive speed jitter
to work.  (RX50 specs are actually tighter than IBM's original DD drives,
since they only had originally 8, then 9 sectors, while DEC uses 10.  However,
most good drives are up to the task, so you can "weed out" the junky drives
with FDFORMAT this way, etc.)  Note that this usage requires HD diskettes,
as opposed to the RX50's requirement of DD-type media!  

>   
>    An additional problem with the usage described above is that even
>though the /Y:2 option was given, it is ignored.  The unreliable   
>disk, when actually formatted, does apply the /Y:2 option to the new     
>disk format, so the stagger is now present, but FDFORMAT attempts to  
>merely verify the format in this usage to avoid formatting.  The  
>stagger/slide factor is not checked for, and can be any value.  The    
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>stagger/slide factor is not checked for, and can be any value.  The    
>disk will not be reformatted merely because it was a different
>stagger; of course if an error occurs it will be reformatted with the
>designated value. 

Yes, to ensure a stagger/slide and/or interleave factor being as desired
the diskette must actually get formatted.  /Q prevents this, and /U ensures it
and leaving either out leaves it to chance, but since FDFORMAT can misinterpret
certain I/O errors, it tends to err on the side of just reading the diskette,
which means that it likely never verifies the stagger/slide or interleave,
just the basic readability, etc.

>    
>    So, FDFORMAT as currently released is of no useful value to any
>RX50 user, since the reliability suffers so terribly.  It should be
>abandoned until the author or someone else fixes it for our RX50  
>purposes.     

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Not completely, since if used intelligently as a prototype disk creator, and
then passed through TELEDISK, the resultant disks are superior.  Note that
FDFORMAT can be used to make "pre-master" diskettes for TELEDISK's usage, and
then TELEDISK makes all subsequent usable RX50 media, etc.

>   
>    Additionally, some users report problems getting the FDREAD/FDR88         
>programs to load properly, preventing FDFORMAT's use entirely (except       
>for "vanilla" PC formats).      

This also affects the ability to create the extended-capacity HD diskettes
which may be useful in and of themselves, but also allows some confidence
checking on the drive's condition, so it is an important subject.   

FDR88 for XT's, and FDREAD for all 286 and up machines can have problems
getting loaded if these programs misinterpret the size of available memory,
especially in the case of upper-memory and high-memory area systems.  It
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especially in the case of upper-memory and high-memory area systems.  It
does occasionally get it right, but in some cases, the galling message:  
"TOO MUCH MEMORY" appears, and cannot be cleared, even following the  
documentation to try loading the program multiple times.  (Actually, the
documentation merely says to try a second load attempt.  In fact, in
certain systems, it might work after as many as 20 attempts to load it,
each one wasting a small amount of memory.)

The solution may well be to run a "bare-bones" system, such as a bootable
floppy DOS system which lacks the memory juggling frills.  This is still
a viable environment for FDFORMAT, and all necessary files can easily fit
on a bootable HD diskette.  FDFORMAT allows a pause between execution     
invocation and formatting the diskette, so you can take out the system disk
and replace with the disk to be formatted, etc.          

The problems definitely come about when using MS-DOS or DR-DOS version 5
and up.  Sometimes it is possible to shell out of another program and then 
run FDREAD      e now smaller memory space, etc.  Experimentation is  
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run FDREAD   e now smaller memory space, etc.  Experimentation is  
desirable here!   

>             
>    Hopefully, the author can be contacted for fixes to this     
>otherwise useful program.     

In spite of all of its problems, FDFORMAT still gets you viable master
diskettes for variant formats that improve performance on many O/S's as  
found on RX50's on various machines.  All MS-DOS formats can get a performance
boost using some aspect of FDFORMAT, and if there is an MS-DOS board for the
PRO, this issue certainly applies there.  Also certain CP/M layouts can
definitely benefit.  Admittedly most mainstream PRO usage is for the   
standard layout where the drivers map the disk sectors instead of having
a hardware sector reordering, thus any standard formatter is sufficient in
those particular cases, but for all of the myriad variants out there, FDFORMAT
(coupled with TELEDISK) is invaluable.     

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>         
>22DSK138

This is a useful package for converting many CP/M formats to/from
>MS-DOS.  The DECmate and Rainbow are directly supported and can be
>set as the default CP/M types.  The program can be configured for use
>with the TEAC FD-55F drives which are essentially two-sided RX50     
>types.  (FD-55GFV and GFR can be configured as FD-55F equivalent.)  
>The program can run on an XT configured with HD or FD-55F drives as          
>well.  Note that FD-55F doesn't require a 3-speed floppy controller,    
>thus any XT can have an FD-55F added on if necessary. 
>          
>22DISK also formats the CP/M disks it handles, so RX50's can be  
>formatted directly.  As a high-level consequence, a CP/M directory     
>initialization is also performed.  The resulting disk is usable      
>anywhere an RX50 can go, and is quite reliable.
>
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>
Note that there are no formatting options as in FDFORMAT, just a
>standard low-level-format RX50.  But a reliable standard format is
>better than an unreliable "better" format.  So, this is a recommended
>way to format RX50 on a PC.  

Again, only if the application is for a standard format RX50, which isn't
always the case.  22DISK will note errors while formatting though, and is
an invaluable tool for weeding out flaky media, etc. even if ultimately
non-standard sector layout is needed later, etc. 

>
(It is conceivable that FDFORMAT "behaves" correctly on FD-55F
>drives, which are theoretically supported by both programs.  If the
>disks prove reliable, then the other advantages of FDFORMAT can be
>applied in this particular case.)  

This has been proven wrong.  FDFORMAT just can't make sector gaps the
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This has been proven wrong.  FDFORMAT just can't make sector gaps the
way other programs do.  

It is conceivable that a non-standard usage of the "G" (for Gap) parameter
may yet bail out FDFORMAT for RX50 usage, but so far, some fairly extensive
testing fails to find a value that makes a formatted diskette as well as
any of the other ways to format a diskette (TELEDISK, 22DISK, RAINDOS, etc.).

There is one additional use of FDFORMAT: If the O/S is MS-DOS V 4.01 or older,
there is no provision in the FORMAT command to override the current format
on the diskette.  Often you can get into a situation where FORMAT will not
change the (incorrect and possibly only partial) format on the media which
is in conflict with w    you are attempting, etc.  Since FDFORMAT always
supports the /Q and /U switches in the same manner as the newer DOS versions,
it can undo these problems should they occur, etc.  

>
>RAINDOS 1.12 
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>RAINDOS 1.12 
>   
>For MS-DOS DECmate and Rainbow users, there is an alternate route:
>RAINDOS is a device driver from the same vendor as 22DISK, and  
>apparently incorporates the same low-level disk support.  
>       
>Unlike RX50DRVR, RAINDOS can work correctly with CHKDSK and most      
>importantly DOS's FORMAT command.  You still get a standard low-level
>RX50, but the resultant DOS structure is entirely compatible with   
>DECmate and Rainbow MS-DOS, so programs like RX50INIT aren't       
>required.  Further, since DOS's FORMAT command was used, any actual   
>errors will be incorporated into the FAT structure, so diskettes with    
>bad spots can be used.  (RX50INIT does a no-check perfect directory    
>initialize.  FDFORMAT does check for errors, but records them in the        
>incompatible PC-like DOS structure that has to be replaced for DEC
>compatibility, so you have to observe that FDFORMAT found no errors,
>and must reject disks with errors.)  The manual claims there is the
>same FD-55F support as in 22DISK.
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same FD-55F support as in 22DISK.

>RAINDOS has several problems:  
>
It doesn't work under DR DOS.  All but the FORMAT command actually do
 
^^ does

>work there, but attempts to format a diskette terminate with the     
>error message "Drive already locked to another program".     

To clarify this issue:     

If a FORMAT command actually causes a low-level format to be attempted,
and the O/S is DR-DOS 6.0, the command will fail with the above noted
error message.  If the FORMAT command merely does a "quick" format, either
due to FORMAT's guesswork or the /Q switch, then the disk is m  ely initialized
and not formatted (a "high-level" format always occurs, but a "low-level"
format will not under these circumstances.)
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format will not under these circumstances.)

>
It doesn't work with DOS 4 and 5 booted to the A: floppy which is
>also the drive used by RAINDOS for its RX50 operations, unless DOS is
>used exclusively on 360K diskettes.  As with other floppy-based    
>systems, there are times when you get a message like "mount a
>diskette containing \COMMAND.COM in drive A: and press ENTER".  This
>is perfectly normal for this limited environment.  The problem is
>that if you have HD drives, (most machines have HD A: drives), then
>you would prefer to read HD diskettes on them.  Once booted up and in
>the mentioned situation, all further attempts at using an HD floppy
>yield a GENERAL FAILURE error message that will not clear.  You can   
>mount a low-density floppy to get COMMAND.COM reloaded, but all     
>further access to the A: drive disallows HD diskettes.     
>   
>For hard-disk DOS 4 and 5 users, none of this is a problem in           
>general, but since I use DR DOS 6, I had to boot a DOS 4 or 5 floppy
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>general, but since I use DR DOS 6, I had to boot a DOS 4 or 5 floppy
>:-(.

There additionally seems to be some speed/timing related problems with
RAINDOS in that certain file transfers take inexplicably long times to
read or write.  The longer the file, the more likely the problem is.  Also,
when RAINDOS is loaded, the FORMAT command for normal DOS formatting may
take inordinately long, often accompanied by extraneou  seeks/recalibrates
between track formats, although totally harmless otherwise; the resultant
diskettes are formatted correctly. 

>
Overall, if the goal is merely to format RX50 media, 22DISK is the 
>best route since it runs under any PC-based DOS system.  For many
>users, RAINDOS is even better, but clearly not for all users.

>When/if FDFORMAT gets fixed, it will be a better way through that
>portion of the problem.  BTW, RX50DRVR, while not able to format,   
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portion of the problem.  BTW, RX50DRVR, while not able to format,   
>does run under DR DOS 6, as does RX50INIT.  RX50INIT cannot run under
>DOS 4 and DOS 5.  RX50DRVR has some quirky problems partially
>avoidable there as well.  There is also word that RX50DRVR is being  
>upgraded to support formatting and DOS 4 and 5's CHKDSK.  It 
>currently can be used with DR DOS's CHKDSK as well as DOS 3.x.  
>    
>Apparently, RX50 support is hardly a "static" issue :-).                 

Here's another possibility:       

There is a shareware product from Italy called 800.  I think the viable
current version may be called 800II standing for 800 version 2 in Roman
numeral notation. 

This program essentially is an alternative to the FDREAD portion of
FDFORMAT and allows the MS-DOS 5.0 and DR-DOS 6.0 FORMAT command to specify
parameters that otherwise could not be performed.  For example, it is possible
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parameters that otherwise could not be performed.  For example, it is possible
after the 800 TSR is loaded, to invoke the DR-DOS 6.0 FORMAT command: 

FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10      

This will create an RX50 format diskette with one difference: it is double-
sided.  Due to limitations of the FORMAT command itself, the /1 option is
not allowed for any format other than the /4 format.  (I.e., to make a
single sided 160K or 180K diskette from what would otherwise be a 320K or
360K diskette.)            

Such a diskette can then be used with any of the high-level formats to 
make i  RX50 MS-DOS compatible, or merely tested for viability before  
being passed over to an RX50-based DEC system.  The only interesting
aspect is that it could report errors on the other side of the disk, i.e., the
side ignored by the RX50!   

Further testing is required to determine if 800 can interact favorably with   
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Further testing is required to determine if 800 can interact favorably with   
FDFORMAT in lieu of FDREAD/FDR88.  In any case, 800 has no problems getting
loaded by MS-DOS 5 or DR-DOS 6, and reacts favorably to systems with high or
upper memory enabled, etc.

Of course since it is primarily for use with the DOS FORMAT command, the   
non-standard parameters do not get passed through to 800, even though the
ability to do so is present.     

There exists a package available from the (ex-)Soviet Union as shareware,
that can format and exchange files between MS-DOS and ODS-1 RSX PRO/-11
RX50 diskettes which is ideal for PRO's.  This package runs under MS-DOS or
DR-DOS, and requires 800, etc.  

>      
>   --  Charles Lasner   lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>                         **************************         
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>                         **************************         
>        
>Q12. Is there a way to copy RX50s on an MSDOS computer?        
>     
>I have down-loaded Sydex's teledisk, and have found it to exceed my
>expectations in some useful ways.  
>            
>For starters, all of my attentions are based on the problems of distributing
>RX50 diskettes not necessarily in stock format, and not yet having any
>satisfactory way of creating the necessary disks.    
>    
>Background:   
>       
>There are several desirable variant formats for RX50 that have been discussed
>elsewhere.  The only known program to create them is FDFORMAT for PC's.  While
>this freeware program is generally quite good, it has a few crucial bugs that
>make it unsuitable for RX50 usage.  It is conceivable that this will be
>solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create
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solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create
>usable disks, but in any case, the use of all obvious parameters yields disks
>that are flakey on some RX50's, and downright unreadable on others.  In
>addition, these disks are so messed up that a DECmate can't even WRITE on the
>disks and read back what it just wrote reliably!  Yet, this isn't a media
>problem because it can be demonstrated that the problem disappears by
>low-level format of the same diskette with either Sydex's RAINDOS or 22DISK
>packages.  (Note that *some* RX50 systems using some newer-designed controllers
>and/or higher revision drives and/or RX50-compatibility modes on different
>drives have little or no problems with these FDFORMATted diskettes; indeed
>the diskettes are fine on a PC; there's some low-level detail that's incorrect
>about FDFORMATted diskettes.  Some parameter is being set to a PC-acceptable
>value that doesn't center on RX50's requirements.  Perhaps this will be
>uncovered at a later time obviating this entire discussion.  Until such a    
>time, FDFORMAT cannot be used to create RX50 diskettes that are readable on   
>*all* RX50 systems.  FDFORMAT also has a few other operational bugs, such as 
>incorrect recognition of certain I/O errors, etc., but these are exception
>cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.)   
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cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.)   
>
The reason why FDFORMAT is desirable is that it is the only known program
>capable of creating the variant RX50 formats where the format must be  
>done with interleave and stagger factors, especially if the disk must have
>"zones" where the format changes.  For example, to create a disk best suited
>for DECmate OS/278 usage, the following *TWO* commands should be given:    
>
FDFORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 /I:2 
>FDFORMAT A: /T:78 /N:10 /1 /Y:2   
>
The first command creates a disk with an interleave of 2:1 and a stagger of 
>2 throughout.  The second command changes tracks 0-77 to have 1:1 interleave
>and a stagger of 2 throughout.      
>
When OS/278 is copied onto such a diskette, the "slushware" tracks are read 
>in much faster than on standard RX50 diskettes, and all access to the rest of
>the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes
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the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes
>the software's lack of stagger mapping.  But since the software does map the
>sector order into a 2:1 interleave, the hardware order must stay in 1:1  
>inter  ave sequence.    
>
This would be a nice disk to use for the intended purpose, but many DECmates
>will be unable to read this diskette.  Literally, it will get a CRC error
>on *every* sector!  Furthermore, if you attempt to write an image of the
>software onto this diskette, it will get a CRC error on *every* sector even
>though it just wrote the disk out!

>Enter Teledisk to the rescue!    
>
When I read Teledisk's documentation, I had doubts that it could solve
>this problem, because I noticed it could be quite "smart", perhaps *too*
>smart!  It claims that it can get around certain copy-protection methods   
>by virtue of how it operates, so I figured that it would likely copy the
>problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(.  Or, alternatively, it might guess that     
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problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(.  Or, alternatively, it might guess that     
     diskette was an RX50 and proceed to format it in a stock manner, thus   
>destroying the optimization applied by using the two FDFORMAT commands instead
>of just using RAINDOS or 22DISK to create stock low-level RX50 diskettes.

>Well, I was wrong on both counts!    
>
Teledisk understands how to maintain sector order, and pointed out the  
>change of interleave from 1:1 to 2:1 at track 78, so that problem is   
>hurdled.  

>Teledisk understands that these sectors should be formatted with apparently
>the same parameters as the formatting routines in 22DISK and RAINDOS, so the
>resultant disk *is* readable on DECmates!  Of course, this is *not* an
>"exact" copy   ut rather it is a "better" copy.  Apparently Teledisk only
>writes sectors in a "sane" format, and the copy-protection they refer to
>is the class of "funny" sector ordering, size, or count, not any lower-level
>details.  Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also
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details.  Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also
>within Teledisk, thus since Teledisk recognizes the disk as a 10-sector/track
>512 bytes/sector disk, it writes it as would RAINDOS, etc., except Teledisk   
>is sensitive to sector ordering unlike the other Sydex programs, etc.    

>Thus, the descendent disk is actually *better* than the original.  I can now
>therefore distribute diskettes in the intended format for working-copy usage
>of the best effort of each diskette :-).    
>
Additionally, if I modify distribution diskettes to be in their intended
>format instead of their original stock format (virtually all diskettes that
>need to be distributed are in stock RX50 format, because the need to create
>optimal diskette layout is generally newer than the software; indeed, this  
>entire effort is to distribute software that performs *better* than the
>original!), then the master disks should be copied with Teledisk to create
>perfect copie  in one step.        
>
There are additional advantages:    
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There are additional advantages:    
>
Teledisk can also create an MS-DOS file that is the image of the diskette  
>in either a rudimentary-compressed or advanced-compressed form.  These files
>can be transmitted down the net and then reconstructed on PC-AT's for use
>on RX50 targets.  Since they are compressed, this minimizes the overhead 
>as well, etc.        
>
So, Teledisk has made my day :-).

However, all clouds have dark sides as well :-( :         

Teledisk has some problems, some of which are "political" in nature.  There is
a known limitation of TELEDISK in that when you invoke the built-in compression
feature, which is apparently "liberally borrowed" from the PD LHARC program, it
runs quite slow, but admittedly creates smaller MS-DOS files for the effort.
However, if the extra compression is disabled, the MS-DOS file is only subject
to run-length compression of zero bytes, and the resultant file can then
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to run-length compression of zero bytes, and the resultant file can then
be compressed by better means, such as PKZIP which is often faster in the
compression and decompression, which means that uncompressed files can be 
used to speed up TELEDISK's operations, and occasionally the PKZIP archive   
file is somewhat smaller (or somewhat larger, it varies!) than the LHARC-type
file format used by TELEDISK when       ssion is enabled.    

Although I would therefore recommend disabling the compression, the program
tends to promote the use of the compression, etc.

There is a known bug in the compression routine that will occasionally show
up as an incorrect file that is worthless!  So far, only 1.44 MByte 3.5" HD
diskette image files have been found to show this problem, and only   
occasionally.  As distributed as shareware (last shareware version I believe   
is 2.12) the only way to confirm this is to attempt to make a descendent     
floppy, and notice that it craps out in the middle.    

The author has acknowledged this weakness as of this 2.12 version, and  
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The author has acknowledged this weakness as of this 2.12 version, and  
apparently at least an additional newer version that he won't make available
as shareware, even though this version, and perhaps some even newer versions
only add on attempts at bug fixes.  (Clearly there is at least one newer  
non-shareware version superseded by at least yet another non-shareware       
version, and the former's only purpose is to defectively attempt to
overcome the problem in the shareware version, and the latter is a fix to
that fix, etc.  Relative to this problem, there are no other features to   
the newer versions, and perhaps there are no other features at all!)

Apparently the author is having some business problems with some unscrupulous
commercial BBS operators who have apparently violated the shareware license
by having a blatant amount of downloadable files in TELEDISK format, yet
haven't paid for a shareware license, etc.  The author contends that the    
only way these operators can have so many TELEDISK files is that they are
violating the terms of the shareware, etc.  

While all of this may even be true, Internet users who have no commercial
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While all of this may even be true, Internet users who have no commercial
interest in Te  disk are now being "punished" along with the "guilty" since 
the shareware author has decided to no longer support newer versions on     
Teledisk as shareware!  Instead, all users are required to purchase a   
"site license" regardless of status, etc.  Thus, it is necessary to pay a
high (compared to shareware rates) price for the next version, even though
it is of dubious worth over the last shareware version, at least in regard
to RX50-related matters specifically.  It is conceivable that someone 
able to justify the site license could report to us whether the problems
we must concern ourselves with have been remedied in a newer version, etc.

Additionally, as of Ve        ion 2.13, an additional utility has appeared called
TDCHECK.  The TDCHECK program can check the viability of a Teledisk file to
determine if the file isn't corrupted (whether caused by Teledisk itself or
not!) and is faster than using Teledisk to create a target disk which then
has to be verified as a copy of the original, etc.  Of course, you need to
purchase a site license to obtain this utility as it's a portion of the
first "commercial" release, etc.    
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first "commercial" release, etc.    

On the brighter side, the shareware author may have relented somewhat, 
because I have found a copy of the TDCHECK program on many of the common
Internet resource sites (SIMTEL20, etc.) seemingly unbundled from any   
Teledisk release of Version 2.13 or higher, etc. 

This TDCHECK program doesn't solve the problem of corrupted operation, it
merely confirms that the problem has/has not occurred allowing you an easier
work-around, i.e., definitely to not enable the compression. 

Since the recommendation is to disable the compression and use an external 
utility for that purpose, this really shouldn't pose any actual problems,  
and I again want to emphasize that no RX50 images have ever been discovered
to be self-corrupted by Teledisk V 2.12, just 3.5" HD diskettes.      

However, there is yet another problem with Teledisk, at least as of V 2.12:

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Teledisk attempts to read a diskette which might be highly non-standard,
and it reports all points of change in the format of a disk as they   
occur, such as when the interleave changes, etc.   

As a consequence of this, it "tolerates" a lot of format variations and
will recreate them in the descendent disk (and in the case of FDFORMAT-
created RX50 images, actually better than the original!)    

However, if the disk is being read marginally, as RX50 diskettes sometimes
do, it assumes that the variation is normal, i.e., there will be a report
on the screen during the disk reading, copying to an MS-DOS file, of an   
unwarranted format change from the constant 10 sectors/track RX50 format with
some stated interleave, etc.  It appears that Teledisk inadequately retries
reading a diskette to confirm the difference between a desirable format
change or anomaly, and merely an I/O error that would clear up merely by
re-reading the track a few times.     
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o get around this, the following recommendation is made:  

First format a diskett        on the PC using the desired interleave and stagger or
slide parameters.  Take this diskette to the DEC RX50 system and make an
image copy of the desired diskette onto this diskette that was formatted on
the PC just prior to being written on at the DEC system.  Then take the
copied diskette back to the PC where it was formatted, and read it into
Teledisk.  The resulting MS-DOS file will report no format changes during
the diskette reading a  would the original DEC diskette.  This procedure can
eliminate about 98% of the problem.  If the format change is reported during
the diskette read, the diskette is definitely useless, and there is no 
fix possible.  If no format change is reported, the disk is likely       
trustworthy.            

Of course the descendent disk can be brought back to the DEC system and 
compared to the DEC original, as a further "belts and suspenders" approach
which should be done on important disks, etc.
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which should be done on important disks, etc.

An additional problem of Teledisk as of at least V 2.12 is that there is
an option to make a direct copy from one drive to another without making
the intermediate MS-DOS file.  This option often doesn't work at all. 
Avoid the problem by c  ating the MS-DOS intermediate file, and using    
Teledisk a second time to create a descendent, etc.  (You can always   
output to a RAM disk and/or delete the file afterwards if desired, etc.)

Not related to RX50 per se, but there is another notable Teledisk problem:  
When 1.72 Mbyte disks are created using FDFORMAT as described above,  
Tele     cannot copy them at all!  The symptom is that   descendent disk
is created and is correctly formatted, but the contents of some portion of
the disk (approximately 2/3 of the way into the disk) are a repeat of the
contents of lower-numbered tracks.  Often the file is self-corrupted as is
occasionally the downfall of using Teledisk with 3.5" HD diskettes, but
in this particular case, the file is not noted as corrupted with TDCHECK, 
but rather has plausible contents, just repeating some of the former track
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but rather has plausible contents, just repeating some of the former track
data instead of the desired data, but the Teledisk file is in the proper
format per se, and the resultant disk's format is correct also.  Note that
it could be necessary to disable to compression to avoid self-corruption,
but the data is still wrong even if the format is correct in that case.

In spite of all of these problems, Teledisk does generally work, and works
rather well.  Hopefully, the shareware author will change his policy regarding
the usage by those more suited to being treated as shareware users, not
commercial operators, and at that point, the shareware author can enjoy the
benefits of having good feedback from his audience!  This policy can give
the greatest advantage to the author and users alike!  

>   
>Besides Teledisk there is another option.  You can retreive rt11.zip   
                                                    ^^^^^^^^ retrieve  

>by via anonymous ftp from newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in 
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>by via anonymous ftp from newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in 
>the pub/local directory.   
>      
>It produces what appears to be a nice RT-11-like environment on a PC    
>for file transfers, etc., but is inferior to Teledisk for the purpose
>of making a compacted image of an entire disk as a DOS file.  Since
>this is a frill, it can be completely overlooked :-).     
>      
>And yes, it does Format DD-type media to stock RX50 as advertised. 
>          
>This program is written in Turbo Pascal.  It would seem that someone who
>can understand enough TP and the quirky code to call BIOS routines should
>incorporate some of RT11.PAS into FDFORMAT (also a TP-based item) since
>the format routine works fine while FDFORMAT does not for RX50 as discussed
>elsewhere.       
>

>Overall a nice program.
>
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      -- Charles Lasner  lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu

>                         **************************          
>
Q13. Is an RX50 equivalent to a low density or high density generic floppy?
>
Just a word about using HD media:
>
You can't reliably use HD media on an actual RX50, because the coercivity
>is too far off in HD media.  It was designed for the higher-frequency   
>recording of the "real" 1.2 Meg format (500 KHz) and not the 250 KHz recording
>rate of the RX50, which is actually the same as good 'ol DS/DD media (360K
>kid of media).  Some revisions of RX50 drive in comination with certain RX 
 ^^^ kind                        drives ^^^^^    ^^^^^^^^^^ combination
>controllers in some DEC machins fare better than others, but it can be
                         ^^^^^^^ machines
>demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD
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demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD
>media.   

>The designated media for RX50 is Maxell MD1DD-RX50 or equivalent, which is
>what used to be called "quad" media.  This is well-honed low-density media,
>so it is rated for use on 96 TPI (80 track) drives, not just 48 TPI (40 track)
>drives as is usual.  Note that MD2D is not MD2DD.  (The 2 just means two-sided
>which for all intents and purposes today can be ignored; virtuall *all* media
 
^^^^^^^^ virtually

>is actually made double-sided :-).)  The DD means 80-track support, but since
>most media are made well-honed, most cheap disks can support 80 tracks anyway.
>These disks will *not* cause I/O errors on any RX50!  However, long-term usage
>requires the hub rings be removed completely (use alcohol to get the sticky
>stuff off, or ask your supplier for no-hub disks!).  Failing to remove
>hub rings means eventually the disks will get unreliable sooner than they
>ought to due to registration problems.  All 96 TPI disks have this problem.
>Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings!  It is rumored that there is
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Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings!  It is rumored that there is
>a "premium" line of diskettes from Fuji apart from their standard line of
>inexpensive diskettes that has a specially reinforced hub area, that isn't
>a hub ring per se.  If the same mechanism is used in both HD and DD media,
>then the DD type woul  be the best thing today to use with impunity for    
>RX50.  Clearly the MD1DD or MD2DD or MD1DD or the 3M equivalents are too      
>expensive, considering that what we want are the cheapest types of diskettes  
>with the hub rings never added.  (We don't want to pay more for less!)  

An issue over hub rings:

While it is desirable to find media without hub rings, and yet be DD media,    
it is usually the case that DD and hub rings go together, i.e.  if there are   
no hub rings, the media is likely to be HD.  To confirm that the media is   
indeed DD, the following test will generally work:    

Attempt to format a suspect disk as a normal 1.2 Meg HD diskette.  If there 
are hundreds of kilobytes in bad sectors, then it's likely a DD-type diskette
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are hundreds of kilobytes in bad sectors, then it's likely a DD-type diskette
unsuitable for HD usage and therefore suitable  or DD usage.  If the diskette
gets either no errors or few errors (under 200K in bad sectors) then it's some
form of HD diskette and shouldn't be attempted for RX50 usage.  It may appear
OK o    e PC, but it won't work reliably on (most) real RX50 systems!   

>
      -- Charles Lasner  lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu 
>
>                         **************************

I have a question of my own:  

I notice someone claimed that an MS-DOS board was available for the PRO. 
Didn't  EC market a Z80/CP/M board for the PRO?   

cjl     

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comp.sys.dec.micro: 5 Items (#1 - #5) Prot:RW                                   
                                                                                
         Title                                  From                Lines  Date 
  1      dead rd53                              gleason@mwk.com        19  3-Sep
  2      DEC Professional Computer faq part 1   chaim@linc.cis.upen   987  3-Sep
  3      DEC Professional Computer faq part 2   chaim@linc.cis.upen   822  3-Sep
  4      DEC Pro Computer faqs                  chaim@linc.cis.upen    18  3-Sep
->5      Re: DEC Professional Computer faq part lasner@watsun.cc.co   746  4-Sep















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NEWS> 

Group: comp.sys.dec.micro, Item 5   (Current Item Range #1 - #5)
Subject: Re: DEC Professional Computer faq part 1
From: lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu (Charles Lasner), Columbia University
Date: 4 Sep 1993 06:46:06 GMT                   
  
Just updating my section of this FAQ a bit: 
  
>                      ================================               
>                         DEC Professional Computer
>                         Frequently Asked Questions
>                          and Miscellaneous Trivia
>                      ================================
>      compiled and edited by: Chaim Dworkin  chaim@linc.cis.upenn.edu
>-------------------   --------------------------------------------------------

>disks. Of course, nowadays, a copy of Media Master from Intersecting
>Concepts will do the job on any AT clone...

But this may not even be the best way to go about it, and it costs money
besides.  The sections below address this issue!


<RETURN for more - 16/746 Lines (2%)>

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>So...PRO users of the world (if there are any of you left out there)
>UNITE!  Let's see if we can brainstorm an effective way to coax Digital
>into releasing the new firmware for the RX50 controller.  If I could
>just get my hands on one set of the ROM(s), I would arrange to have
>them duplicated and make them available at cost to anyone else in the
>world wanting the ability to format their own diskettes.

Note that this is likely a prototype, and is more likely an 8751 than an
8051.  An 8751 can be read/blasted just like an EPROM, so if one copy can
be procured, it most certainly can be duplicated!                              

>Q11.  Can I format an RX50 on my MSDOS computer?   
>
>There are some software packages available which proport to allow
>formatting of RX50s on MSDOS 5 1/4" high density drives.  Here is a    
>short review of three of those packages. 
>
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>
    I have been playing with 22DSK138.ZIP and RAIND112.ZIP and      
>FDFORM18.ZIP long enough to give some additional info regarding 
>Rainbow/DECmate RX50 formatting and related issues.       

And I have some random new info as well.  Also, pardon me if I correct my
own typoes so they get fixed in the next edition of the FAQ.

>    
>FDFORMAT 1.8  
>  
>    There are some problems with the current release that have always
>been in at least the two previous versions when attempting to format
>RX50 diskettes.  You use the command:
>
FDFORMAT A: /Y:2 /T:80 /N:10 /H:1   
>
to format for RX50.  The /Y:2 is to force a two-sector stagger per
50
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to format for RX50.  The /Y:2 is to force a two-sector stagger per
>track to speed up transfer on all systems except -11/pro.  /H:1
>means a one-sided disk.  /N:10 for 10 sectors and /T:80 for 80 
>tracks.         

Please note that this FAQ is meant for all DECmate/Rainbow/PRO users, so 
some of the info is not directly of use to PRO people, but in the interests
of all RX50 users, it is provided with all of the relevant details, since
we are talking about RX50 support of DEC machines using PC's, etc.


       resultant disks are marginal, especially to revision A and B 
>RX50 drives.  Symptoms include data CRC errors right out of the     
>formatter when test reading the diskettes, and the inability to write
>data that won't read back with data CRC errors.  The problems worsen
>with higher track numbers, but often start right at track 0 or 1.
>Using MD1DD media instead of MD2D makes a more reliable disk, so this
>was assumed to be the problem.   
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was assumed to be the problem.   
>
    This has been confirmed as incorrect.     
>
>    There are several bugs in FDFORMAT that directly affect RX50's:
>      
>If the floppy is already formatted without error for all 80 tracks,       
>then FDFORMAT will merely verify readibility on every sector.  Then     
>the directory info is written by ordinary writing (not formatting)
>means as previously discussed.  (Meaning suitable only as a strange
>variant of PC-DOS-specific MS-DOS, not DECmate/Rainbow MS-DOS.  You
>then use RX50INIT or move to the DECmate or Rainbow and use the    
>FORMAT command or whatever.)  Thus, all that FDFORMAT has done at
>this point is to verify that a previously formatted disk is indeed   
>readable. 

What this means is that if a diskette is already low-level formatted, FDFORMAT
will reliably determine that it can read the disk completely.  Since the
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will reliably determine that it can read the disk completely.  Since the
status line always shows a "V" for Verify in this case, you can be certain
that the diskette is readable.  However, no attempt is being made to confirm
that the stagger/slide and interleave factors match the command line values!
Thus, you still don't precisely know what the diskette looks like!  

>
    If FDFORMAT gets even a single error for any reason, it will   
>change over to an actual low-level format mode.  This is noticeable
>in that it runs much faster.    

And the status line will revert to the "F" for Formatting followed by "V" for
Verifying, which actually goes faster than the reliable verify-reading, because
it turns out that the verify read after the format is in fact flaky, and
often misinterprets returned errors!  In fact, FDFORMAT can be fooled into
believing it correctly formatted *and verified* a damaged diskette readable
nowhere!  Smarter formatters will deal with the very real errors, but
gets fooled!  
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gets fooled!  

  The resultant diskette is the 
>unreliable type described above.  Using the /U switch will force this      
>to happen as well, but is a normal feature of this switch.  Also 
>using the /W switch to rewrite the prior contents of the sector also
>works, but since the sectors are reformatted, the same problem
>results.  The /Q "quick" format works fine, since this isn't really a
>format, rather a directory initialization.       

Thus, to determine if the diskette is usable, another program has to read
the diskette after the fact.  FDFORMAT itself can be used, since it will  
always attempt (unless /U is invoked) to do the "quick" format (which is       
actually slower!) and you can observe that only "V" for Verify appears  
throughout the verifying, etc.  Alternatively, the diskette can be    
verified with the Norton DT program or the analogous CHKDSK /M feature that
is unique to DR-DOS 5.0 (alas, dropped in 6.0 :-(, but can be lifted from     
there and run under 6.0 if desired :-).) to confirm that it's actually readable
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there and run under 6.0 if desired :-).) to confirm that it's actually readable
using either FDFORMAT's default MS-DOS layout which differs from DEC's RX50
MS-DOS allocation, or alternatively, use RX50INIT with RAINDOS, or use the
DOS 5.0 or DR-DOS 6.0 FORMAT command through RAINDOS and specify the /Q for
Quick option which will just init the directory for DEC MS-DOS purposes, thus
allowing DT or DR-DOS 5.0's CHKDSK /M to check out the disk as an actual
DEC MS-DOS RX50 diskette.  Either way will ensure the disk is readable; the
latter has the advantage that bad spots will be marked in the MS-DOS directory
should this be the intended usage, and CHKDSK can confirm this was accomplished
either way (indication of bad sectors, etc. of CHKDSK's report).

In any case, if the disks are being prepared on a PC for the purposes of
being brought to a DEC system, it is desirable to check the reliability of
the media and the PC's drive while still at the PC end where it can still be
dealt with, as opposed to being at the DEC system end and being stuck with
bad media, or worse, unreadable copies of programs!  

One good thing FDFORMAT is good for is to weed out bad floppy drives for
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One good thing FDFORMAT is good for is to weed out bad floppy drives for
the RX50-oriented purposes:     

A PC-specific usage of FDFORMAT is to create disks that actually achieve   
1.48 MBytes on a HD 5.25" diskette normally formatted to 1.2 MBytes.  This   
can be accomplished using the command:   

FDFORMAT A: /Y:2 /T:82 /N:18 /U   

A brief explanation of this command is that it achieve        a 2:1 interleave
diskette where the unreferenced sectors of the other half of the interleave
are used to replace a portion of the gaps normally provided to allow 1:1
interleave usage to successfully find the next sector.  In 2:1 this is  
obviated, so the space can be given back to allowing more sectors.  If the  
drive is truly up to snuff, 18 sectors can fit instead of the normal 15.  The
/Y:2 parameter has the usual meaning.  82 tracks are usually available on
such a disk as well, so that the 5.25" diskette now holds slightly more than
the usual capacity of a 3.5" HD diskette!  (However, the same technique ups
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the usual capacity of a 3.5" HD diskette!  (However, the same technique ups
the 3.5" diskette's capacity to 1.72 MBytes!)

If the drive can't handle this format, it likely can't properly format  
RX50 media either, since both formats depend on minimal drive speed jitter
to work.  (RX50 specs are actually tighter than IBM's original DD drives,
since they only had originally 8, then 9 sectors, while DEC uses 10.  However,
most good drives are up to the task, so you can "weed out" the junky drives
with FDFORMAT this way, etc.)  Note that this usage requires HD diskettes,
as opposed to the RX50's requirement of DD-type media!  

>   
>    An additional problem with the usage described above is that even
>though the /Y:2 option was given, it is ignored.  The unreliable   
>disk, when actually formatted, does apply the /Y:2 option to the new     
>disk format, so the stagger is now present, but FDFORMAT attempts to  
>merely verify the format in this usage to avoid formatting.  The  
>stagger/slide factor is not checked for, and can be any value.  The    
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>stagger/slide factor is not checked for, and can be any value.  The    
>disk will not be reformatted merely because it was a different
>stagger; of course if an error occurs it will be reformatted with the
>designated value. 

Yes, to ensure a stagger/slide and/or interleave factor being as desired
the diskette must actually get formatted.  /Q prevents this, and /U ensures it
and leaving either out leaves it to chance, but since FDFORMAT can misinterpret
certain I/O errors, it tends to err on the side of just reading the diskette,
which means that it likely never verifies the stagger/slide or interleave,
just the basic readability, etc.

>    
>    So, FDFORMAT as currently released is of no useful value to any
>RX50 user, since the reliability suffers so terribly.  It should be
>abandoned until the author or someone else fixes it for our RX50  
>purposes.     

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Not completely, since if used intelligently as a prototype disk creator, and
then passed through TELEDISK, the resultant disks are superior.  Note that
FDFORMAT can be used to make "pre-master" diskettes for TELEDISK's usage, and
then TELEDISK makes all subsequent usable RX50 media, etc.

>   
>    Additionally, some users report problems getting the FDREAD/FDR88         
>programs to load properly, preventing FDFORMAT's use entirely (except       
>for "vanilla" PC formats).      

This also affects the ability to create the extended-capacity HD diskettes
which may be useful in and of themselves, but also allows some confidence
checking on the drive's condition, so it is an important subject.   

FDR88 for XT's, and FDREAD for all 286 and up machines can have problems
getting loaded if these programs misinterpret the size of available memory,
especially in the case of upper-memory and high-memory area systems.  It
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especially in the case of upper-memory and high-memory area systems.  It
does occasionally get it right, but in some cases, the galling message:  
"TOO MUCH MEMORY" appears, and cannot be cleared, even following the  
documentation to try loading the program multiple times.  (Actually, the
documentation merely says to try a second load attempt.  In fact, in
certain systems, it might work after as many as 20 attempts to load it,
each one wasting a small amount of memory.)

The solution may well be to run a "bare-bones" system, such as a bootable
floppy DOS system which lacks the memory juggling frills.  This is still
a viable environment for FDFORMAT, and all necessary files can easily fit
on a bootable HD diskette.  FDFORMAT allows a pause between execution     
invocation and formatting the diskette, so you can take out the system disk
and replace with the disk to be formatted, etc.          

The problems definitely come about when using MS-DOS or DR-DOS version 5
and up.  Sometimes it is possible to shell out of another program and then 
run FDREAD      e now smaller memory space, etc.  Experimentation is  
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run FDREAD   e now smaller memory space, etc.  Experimentation is  
desirable here!   

>             
>    Hopefully, the author can be contacted for fixes to this     
>otherwise useful program.     

In spite of all of its problems, FDFORMAT still gets you viable master
diskettes for variant formats that improve performance on many O/S's as  
found on RX50's on various machines.  All MS-DOS formats can get a performance
boost using some aspect of FDFORMAT, and if there is an MS-DOS board for the
PRO, this issue certainly applies there.  Also certain CP/M layouts can
definitely benefit.  Admittedly most mainstream PRO usage is for the   
standard layout where the drivers map the disk sectors instead of having
a hardware sector reordering, thus any standard formatter is sufficient in
those particular cases, but for all of the myriad variants out there, FDFORMAT
(coupled with TELEDISK) is invaluable.     

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>         
>22DSK138

This is a useful package for converting many CP/M formats to/from
>MS-DOS.  The DECmate and Rainbow are directly supported and can be
>set as the default CP/M types.  The program can be configured for use
>with the TEAC FD-55F drives which are essentially two-sided RX50     
>types.  (FD-55GFV and GFR can be configured as FD-55F equivalent.)  
>The program can run on an XT configured with HD or FD-55F drives as          
>well.  Note that FD-55F doesn't require a 3-speed floppy controller,    
>thus any XT can have an FD-55F added on if necessary. 
>          
>22DISK also formats the CP/M disks it handles, so RX50's can be  
>formatted directly.  As a high-level consequence, a CP/M directory     
>initialization is also performed.  The resulting disk is usable      
>anywhere an RX50 can go, and is quite reliable.
>
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>
Note that there are no formatting options as in FDFORMAT, just a
>standard low-level-format RX50.  But a reliable standard format is
>better than an unreliable "better" format.  So, this is a recommended
>way to format RX50 on a PC.  

Again, only if the application is for a standard format RX50, which isn't
always the case.  22DISK will note errors while formatting though, and is
an invaluable tool for weeding out flaky media, etc. even if ultimately
non-standard sector layout is needed later, etc. 

>
(It is conceivable that FDFORMAT "behaves" correctly on FD-55F
>drives, which are theoretically supported by both programs.  If the
>disks prove reliable, then the other advantages of FDFORMAT can be
>applied in this particular case.)  

This has been proven wrong.  FDFORMAT just can't make sector gaps the
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This has been proven wrong.  FDFORMAT just can't make sector gaps the
way other programs do.  

It is conceivable that a non-standard usage of the "G" (for Gap) parameter
may yet bail out FDFORMAT for RX50 usage, but so far, some fairly extensive
testing fails to find a value that makes a formatted diskette as well as
any of the other ways to format a diskette (TELEDISK, 22DISK, RAINDOS, etc.).

There is one additional use of FDFORMAT: If the O/S is MS-DOS V 4.01 or older,
there is no provision in the FORMAT command to override the current format
on the diskette.  Often you can get into a situation where FORMAT will not
change the (incorrect and possibly only partial) format on the media which
is in conflict with w    you are attempting, etc.  Since FDFORMAT always
supports the /Q and /U switches in the same manner as the newer DOS versions,
it can undo these problems should they occur, etc.  

>
>RAINDOS 1.12 
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>RAINDOS 1.12 
>   
>For MS-DOS DECmate and Rainbow users, there is an alternate route:
>RAINDOS is a device driver from the same vendor as 22DISK, and  
>apparently incorporates the same low-level disk support.  
>       
>Unlike RX50DRVR, RAINDOS can work correctly with CHKDSK and most      
>importantly DOS's FORMAT command.  You still get a standard low-level
>RX50, but the resultant DOS structure is entirely compatible with   
>DECmate and Rainbow MS-DOS, so programs like RX50INIT aren't       
>required.  Further, since DOS's FORMAT command was used, any actual   
>errors will be incorporated into the FAT structure, so diskettes with    
>bad spots can be used.  (RX50INIT does a no-check perfect directory    
>initialize.  FDFORMAT does check for errors, but records them in the        
>incompatible PC-like DOS structure that has to be replaced for DEC
>compatibility, so you have to observe that FDFORMAT found no errors,
>and must reject disks with errors.)  The manual claims there is the
>same FD-55F support as in 22DISK.
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same FD-55F support as in 22DISK.

>RAINDOS has several problems:  
>
It doesn't work under DR DOS.  All but the FORMAT command actually do
 
^^ does

>work there, but attempts to format a diskette terminate with the     
>error message "Drive already locked to another program".     

To clarify this issue:     

If a FORMAT command actually causes a low-level format to be attempted,
and the O/S is DR-DOS 6.0, the command will fail with the above noted
error message.  If the FORMAT command merely does a "quick" format, either
due to FORMAT's guesswork or the /Q switch, then the disk is m  ely initialized
and not formatted (a "high-level" format always occurs, but a "low-level"
format will not under these circumstances.)
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format will not under these circumstances.)

>
It doesn't work with DOS 4 and 5 booted to the A: floppy which is
>also the drive used by RAINDOS for its RX50 operations, unless DOS is
>used exclusively on 360K diskettes.  As with other floppy-based    
>systems, there are times when you get a message like "mount a
>diskette containing \COMMAND.COM in drive A: and press ENTER".  This
>is perfectly normal for this limited environment.  The problem is
>that if you have HD drives, (most machines have HD A: drives), then
>you would prefer to read HD diskettes on them.  Once booted up and in
>the mentioned situation, all further attempts at using an HD floppy
>yield a GENERAL FAILURE error message that will not clear.  You can   
>mount a low-density floppy to get COMMAND.COM reloaded, but all     
>further access to the A: drive disallows HD diskettes.     
>   
>For hard-disk DOS 4 and 5 users, none of this is a problem in           
>general, but since I use DR DOS 6, I had to boot a DOS 4 or 5 floppy
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>general, but since I use DR DOS 6, I had to boot a DOS 4 or 5 floppy
>:-(.

There additionally seems to be some speed/timing related problems with
RAINDOS in that certain file transfers take inexplicably long times to
read or write.  The longer the file, the more likely the problem is.  Also,
when RAINDOS is loaded, the FORMAT command for normal DOS formatting may
take inordinately long, often accompanied by extraneou  seeks/recalibrates
between track formats, although totally harmless otherwise; the resultant
diskettes are formatted correctly. 

>
Overall, if the goal is merely to format RX50 media, 22DISK is the 
>best route since it runs under any PC-based DOS system.  For many
>users, RAINDOS is even better, but clearly not for all users.

>When/if FDFORMAT gets fixed, it will be a better way through that
>portion of the problem.  BTW, RX50DRVR, while not able to format,   
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portion of the problem.  BTW, RX50DRVR, while not able to format,   
>does run under DR DOS 6, as does RX50INIT.  RX50INIT cannot run under
>DOS 4 and DOS 5.  RX50DRVR has some quirky problems partially
>avoidable there as well.  There is also word that RX50DRVR is being  
>upgraded to support formatting and DOS 4 and 5's CHKDSK.  It 
>currently can be used with DR DOS's CHKDSK as well as DOS 3.x.  
>    
>Apparently, RX50 support is hardly a "static" issue :-).                 

Here's another possibility:       

There is a shareware product from Italy called 800.  I think the viable
current version may be called 800II standing for 800 version 2 in Roman
numeral notation. 

This program essentially is an alternative to the FDREAD portion of
FDFORMAT and allows the MS-DOS 5.0 and DR-DOS 6.0 FORMAT command to specify
parameters that otherwise could not be performed.  For example, it is possible
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parameters that otherwise could not be performed.  For example, it is possible
after the 800 TSR is loaded, to invoke the DR-DOS 6.0 FORMAT command: 

FORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10      

This will create an RX50 format diskette with one difference: it is double-
sided.  Due to limitations of the FORMAT command itself, the /1 option is
not allowed for any format other than the /4 format.  (I.e., to make a
single sided 160K or 180K diskette from what would otherwise be a 320K or
360K diskette.)            

Such a diskette can then be used with any of the high-level formats to 
make i  RX50 MS-DOS compatible, or merely tested for viability before  
being passed over to an RX50-based DEC system.  The only interesting
aspect is that it could report errors on the other side of the disk, i.e., the
side ignored by the RX50!   

Further testing is required to determine if 800 can interact favorably with   
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Further testing is required to determine if 800 can interact favorably with   
FDFORMAT in lieu of FDREAD/FDR88.  In any case, 800 has no problems getting
loaded by MS-DOS 5 or DR-DOS 6, and reacts favorably to systems with high or
upper memory enabled, etc.

Of course since it is primarily for use with the DOS FORMAT command, the   
non-standard parameters do not get passed through to 800, even though the
ability to do so is present.     

There exists a package available from the (ex-)Soviet Union as shareware,
that can format and exchange files between MS-DOS and ODS-1 RSX PRO/-11
RX50 diskettes which is ideal for PRO's.  This package runs under MS-DOS or
DR-DOS, and requires 800, etc.  

>      
>   --  Charles Lasner   lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu
>
>                         **************************         
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>                         **************************         
>        
>Q12. Is there a way to copy RX50s on an MSDOS computer?        
>     
>I have down-loaded Sydex's teledisk, and have found it to exceed my
>expectations in some useful ways.  
>            
>For starters, all of my attentions are based on the problems of distributing
>RX50 diskettes not necessarily in stock format, and not yet having any
>satisfactory way of creating the necessary disks.    
>    
>Background:   
>       
>There are several desirable variant formats for RX50 that have been discussed
>elsewhere.  The only known program to create them is FDFORMAT for PC's.  While
>this freeware program is generally quite good, it has a few crucial bugs that
>make it unsuitable for RX50 usage.  It is conceivable that this will be
>solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create
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solved by using some additional/non-standard parameters to FDFORMAT to create
>usable disks, but in any case, the use of all obvious parameters yields disks
>that are flakey on some RX50's, and downright unreadable on others.  In
>addition, these disks are so messed up that a DECmate can't even WRITE on the
>disks and read back what it just wrote reliably!  Yet, this isn't a media
>problem because it can be demonstrated that the problem disappears by
>low-level format of the same diskette with either Sydex's RAINDOS or 22DISK
>packages.  (Note that *some* RX50 systems using some newer-designed controllers
>and/or higher revision drives and/or RX50-compatibility modes on different
>drives have little or no problems with these FDFORMATted diskettes; indeed
>the diskettes are fine on a PC; there's some low-level detail that's incorrect
>about FDFORMATted diskettes.  Some parameter is being set to a PC-acceptable
>value that doesn't center on RX50's requirements.  Perhaps this will be
>uncovered at a later time obviating this entire discussion.  Until such a    
>time, FDFORMAT cannot be used to create RX50 diskettes that are readable on   
>*all* RX50 systems.  FDFORMAT also has a few other operational bugs, such as 
>incorrect recognition of certain I/O errors, etc., but these are exception
>cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.)   
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cases, and for all other PC purposes, it serves quite admirably.)   
>
The reason why FDFORMAT is desirable is that it is the only known program
>capable of creating the variant RX50 formats where the format must be  
>done with interleave and stagger factors, especially if the disk must have
>"zones" where the format changes.  For example, to create a disk best suited
>for DECmate OS/278 usage, the following *TWO* commands should be given:    
>
FDFORMAT A: /T:80 /N:10 /1 /Y:2 /I:2 
>FDFORMAT A: /T:78 /N:10 /1 /Y:2   
>
The first command creates a disk with an interleave of 2:1 and a stagger of 
>2 throughout.  The second command changes tracks 0-77 to have 1:1 interleave
>and a stagger of 2 throughout.      
>
When OS/278 is copied onto such a diskette, the "slushware" tracks are read 
>in much faster than on standard RX50 diskettes, and all access to the rest of
>the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes
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the diskette is speeded somewhat because of the stagger factor which overcomes
>the software's lack of stagger mapping.  But since the software does map the
>sector order into a 2:1 interleave, the hardware order must stay in 1:1  
>inter  ave sequence.    
>
This would be a nice disk to use for the intended purpose, but many DECmates
>will be unable to read this diskette.  Literally, it will get a CRC error
>on *every* sector!  Furthermore, if you attempt to write an image of the
>software onto this diskette, it will get a CRC error on *every* sector even
>though it just wrote the disk out!

>Enter Teledisk to the rescue!    
>
When I read Teledisk's documentation, I had doubts that it could solve
>this problem, because I noticed it could be quite "smart", perhaps *too*
>smart!  It claims that it can get around certain copy-protection methods   
>by virtue of how it operates, so I figured that it would likely copy the
>problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(.  Or, alternatively, it might guess that     
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problems of FDFORMAT as well :-(.  Or, alternatively, it might guess that     
     diskette was an RX50 and proceed to format it in a stock manner, thus   
>destroying the optimization applied by using the two FDFORMAT commands instead
>of just using RAINDOS or 22DISK to create stock low-level RX50 diskettes.

>Well, I was wrong on both counts!    
>
Teledisk understands how to maintain sector order, and pointed out the  
>change of interleave from 1:1 to 2:1 at track 78, so that problem is   
>hurdled.  

>Teledisk understands that these sectors should be formatted with apparently
>the same parameters as the formatting routines in 22DISK and RAINDOS, so the
>resultant disk *is* readable on DECmates!  Of course, this is *not* an
>"exact" copy   ut rather it is a "better" copy.  Apparently Teledisk only
>writes sectors in a "sane" format, and the copy-protection they refer to
>is the class of "funny" sector ordering, size, or count, not any lower-level
>details.  Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also
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details.  Apparently the Sydex code at work in RAINDOS and 22DISK is also
>within Teledisk, thus since Teledisk recognizes the disk as a 10-sector/track
>512 bytes/sector disk, it writes it as would RAINDOS, etc., except Teledisk   
>is sensitive to sector ordering unlike the other Sydex programs, etc.    

>Thus, the descendent disk is actually *better* than the original.  I can now
>therefore distribute diskettes in the intended format for working-copy usage
>of the best effort of each diskette :-).    
>
Additionally, if I modify distribution diskettes to be in their intended
>format instead of their original stock format (virtually all diskettes that
>need to be distributed are in stock RX50 format, because the need to create
>optimal diskette layout is generally newer than the software; indeed, this  
>entire effort is to distribute software that performs *better* than the
>original!), then the master disks should be copied with Teledisk to create
>perfect copie  in one step.        
>
There are additional advantages:    
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There are additional advantages:    
>
Teledisk can also create an MS-DOS file that is the image of the diskette  
>in either a rudimentary-compressed or advanced-compressed form.  These files
>can be transmitted down the net and then reconstructed on PC-AT's for use
>on RX50 targets.  Since they are compressed, this minimizes the overhead 
>as well, etc.        
>
So, Teledisk has made my day :-).

However, all clouds have dark sides as well :-( :         

Teledisk has some problems, some of which are "political" in nature.  There is
a known limitation of TELEDISK in that when you invoke the built-in compression
feature, which is apparently "liberally borrowed" from the PD LHARC program, it
runs quite slow, but admittedly creates smaller MS-DOS files for the effort.
However, if the extra compression is disabled, the MS-DOS file is only subject
to run-length compression of zero bytes, and the resultant file can then
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to run-length compression of zero bytes, and the resultant file can then
be compressed by better means, such as PKZIP which is often faster in the
compression and decompression, which means that uncompressed files can be 
used to speed up TELEDISK's operations, and occasionally the PKZIP archive   
file is somewhat smaller (or somewhat larger, it varies!) than the LHARC-type
file format used by TELEDISK when       ssion is enabled.    

Although I would therefore recommend disabling the compression, the program
tends to promote the use of the compression, etc.

There is a known bug in the compression routine that will occasionally show
up as an incorrect file that is worthless!  So far, only 1.44 MByte 3.5" HD
diskette image files have been found to show this problem, and only   
occasionally.  As distributed as shareware (last shareware version I believe   
is 2.12) the only way to confirm this is to attempt to make a descendent     
floppy, and notice that it craps out in the middle.    

The author has acknowledged this weakness as of this 2.12 version, and  
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The author has acknowledged this weakness as of this 2.12 version, and  
apparently at least an additional newer version that he won't make available
as shareware, even though this version, and perhaps some even newer versions
only add on attempts at bug fixes.  (Clearly there is at least one newer  
non-shareware version superseded by at least yet another non-shareware       
version, and the former's only purpose is to defectively attempt to
overcome the problem in the shareware version, and the latter is a fix to
that fix, etc.  Relative to this problem, there are no other features to   
the newer versions, and perhaps there are no other features at all!)

Apparently the author is having some business problems with some unscrupulous
commercial BBS operators who have apparently violated the shareware license
by having a blatant amount of downloadable files in TELEDISK format, yet
haven't paid for a shareware license, etc.  The author contends that the    
only way these operators can have so many TELEDISK files is that they are
violating the terms of the shareware, etc.  

While all of this may even be true, Internet users who have no commercial
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While all of this may even be true, Internet users who have no commercial
interest in Te  disk are now being "punished" along with the "guilty" since 
the shareware author has decided to no longer support newer versions on     
Teledisk as shareware!  Instead, all users are required to purchase a   
"site license" regardless of status, etc.  Thus, it is necessary to pay a
high (compared to shareware rates) price for the next version, even though
it is of dubious worth over the last shareware version, at least in regard
to RX50-related matters specifically.  It is conceivable that someone 
able to justify the site license could report to us whether the problems
we must concern ourselves with have been remedied in a newer version, etc.

Additionally, as of Ve        ion 2.13, an additional utility has appeared called
TDCHECK.  The TDCHECK program can check the viability of a Teledisk file to
determine if the file isn't corrupted (whether caused by Teledisk itself or
not!) and is faster than using Teledisk to create a target disk which then
has to be verified as a copy of the original, etc.  Of course, you need to
purchase a site license to obtain this utility as it's a portion of the
first "commercial" release, etc.    
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first "commercial" release, etc.    

On the brighter side, the shareware author may have relented somewhat, 
because I have found a copy of the TDCHECK program on many of the common
Internet resource sites (SIMTEL20, etc.) seemingly unbundled from any   
Teledisk release of Version 2.13 or higher, etc. 

This TDCHECK program doesn't solve the problem of corrupted operation, it
merely confirms that the problem has/has not occurred allowing you an easier
work-around, i.e., definitely to not enable the compression. 

Since the recommendation is to disable the compression and use an external 
utility for that purpose, this really shouldn't pose any actual problems,  
and I again want to emphasize that no RX50 images have ever been discovered
to be self-corrupted by Teledisk V 2.12, just 3.5" HD diskettes.      

However, there is yet another problem with Teledisk, at least as of V 2.12:

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Teledisk attempts to read a diskette which might be highly non-standard,
and it reports all points of change in the format of a disk as they   
occur, such as when the interleave changes, etc.   

As a consequence of this, it "tolerates" a lot of format variations and
will recreate them in the descendent disk (and in the case of FDFORMAT-
created RX50 images, actually better than the original!)    

However, if the disk is being read marginally, as RX50 diskettes sometimes
do, it assumes that the variation is normal, i.e., there will be a report
on the screen during the disk reading, copying to an MS-DOS file, of an   
unwarranted format change from the constant 10 sectors/track RX50 format with
some stated interleave, etc.  It appears that Teledisk inadequately retries
reading a diskette to confirm the difference between a desirable format
change or anomaly, and merely an I/O error that would clear up merely by
re-reading the track a few times.     
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o get around this, the following recommendation is made:  

First format a diskett        on the PC using the desired interleave and stagger or
slide parameters.  Take this diskette to the DEC RX50 system and make an
image copy of the desired diskette onto this diskette that was formatted on
the PC just prior to being written on at the DEC system.  Then take the
copied diskette back to the PC where it was formatted, and read it into
Teledisk.  The resulting MS-DOS file will report no format changes during
the diskette reading a  would the original DEC diskette.  This procedure can
eliminate about 98% of the problem.  If the format change is reported during
the diskette read, the diskette is definitely useless, and there is no 
fix possible.  If no format change is reported, the disk is likely       
trustworthy.            

Of course the descendent disk can be brought back to the DEC system and 
compared to the DEC original, as a further "belts and suspenders" approach
which should be done on important disks, etc.
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which should be done on important disks, etc.

An additional problem of Teledisk as of at least V 2.12 is that there is
an option to make a direct copy from one drive to another without making
the intermediate MS-DOS file.  This option often doesn't work at all. 
Avoid the problem by c  ating the MS-DOS intermediate file, and using    
Teledisk a second time to create a descendent, etc.  (You can always   
output to a RAM disk and/or delete the file afterwards if desired, etc.)

Not related to RX50 per se, but there is another notable Teledisk problem:  
When 1.72 Mbyte disks are created using FDFORMAT as described above,  
Tele     cannot copy them at all!  The symptom is that   descendent disk
is created and is correctly formatted, but the contents of some portion of
the disk (approximately 2/3 of the way into the disk) are a repeat of the
contents of lower-numbered tracks.  Often the file is self-corrupted as is
occasionally the downfall of using Teledisk with 3.5" HD diskettes, but
in this particular case, the file is not noted as corrupted with TDCHECK, 
but rather has plausible contents, just repeating some of the former track
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but rather has plausible contents, just repeating some of the former track
data instead of the desired data, but the Teledisk file is in the proper
format per se, and the resultant disk's format is correct also.  Note that
it could be necessary to disable to compression to avoid self-corruption,
but the data is still wrong even if the format is correct in that case.

In spite of all of these problems, Teledisk does generally work, and works
rather well.  Hopefully, the shareware author will change his policy regarding
the usage by those more suited to being treated as shareware users, not
commercial operators, and at that point, the shareware author can enjoy the
benefits of having good feedback from his audience!  This policy can give
the greatest advantage to the author and users alike!  

>   
>Besides Teledisk there is another option.  You can retreive rt11.zip   
                                                    ^^^^^^^^ retrieve  

>by via anonymous ftp from newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in 
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>by via anonymous ftp from newton.canterbury.ac.nz, 132.181.40.1, in 
>the pub/local directory.   
>      
>It produces what appears to be a nice RT-11-like environment on a PC    
>for file transfers, etc., but is inferior to Teledisk for the purpose
>of making a compacted image of an entire disk as a DOS file.  Since
>this is a frill, it can be completely overlooked :-).     
>      
>And yes, it does Format DD-type media to stock RX50 as advertised. 
>          
>This program is written in Turbo Pascal.  It would seem that someone who
>can understand enough TP and the quirky code to call BIOS routines should
>incorporate some of RT11.PAS into FDFORMAT (also a TP-based item) since
>the format routine works fine while FDFORMAT does not for RX50 as discussed
>elsewhere.       
>

>Overall a nice program.
>
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      -- Charles Lasner  lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu

>                         **************************          
>
Q13. Is an RX50 equivalent to a low density or high density generic floppy?
>
Just a word about using HD media:
>
You can't reliably use HD media on an actual RX50, because the coercivity
>is too far off in HD media.  It was designed for the higher-frequency   
>recording of the "real" 1.2 Meg format (500 KHz) and not the 250 KHz recording
>rate of the RX50, which is actually the same as good 'ol DS/DD media (360K
>kid of media).  Some revisions of RX50 drive in comination with certain RX 
 ^^^ kind                        drives ^^^^^    ^^^^^^^^^^ combination
>controllers in some DEC machins fare better than others, but it can be
                         ^^^^^^^ machines
>demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD
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demonstrated that a lot of combinations don't particularly "like" HD
>media.   

>The designated media for RX50 is Maxell MD1DD-RX50 or equivalent, which is
>what used to be called "quad" media.  This is well-honed low-density media,
>so it is rated for use on 96 TPI (80 track) drives, not just 48 TPI (40 track)
>drives as is usual.  Note that MD2D is not MD2DD.  (The 2 just means two-sided
>which for all intents and purposes today can be ignored; virtuall *all* media
 
^^^^^^^^ virtually

>is actually made double-sided :-).)  The DD means 80-track support, but since
>most media are made well-honed, most cheap disks can support 80 tracks anyway.
>These disks will *not* cause I/O errors on any RX50!  However, long-term usage
>requires the hub rings be removed completely (use alcohol to get the sticky
>stuff off, or ask your supplier for no-hub disks!).  Failing to remove
>hub rings means eventually the disks will get unreliable sooner than they
>ought to due to registration problems.  All 96 TPI disks have this problem.
>Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings!  It is rumored that there is
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Note that MD2HD and MD1DD don't have hub rings!  It is rumored that there is
>a "premium" line of diskettes from Fuji apart from their standard line of
>inexpensive diskettes that has a specially reinforced hub area, that isn't
>a hub ring per se.  If the same mechanism is used in both HD and DD media,
>then the DD type woul  be the best thing today to use with impunity for    
>RX50.  Clearly the MD1DD or MD2DD or MD1DD or the 3M equivalents are too      
>expensive, considering that what we want are the cheapest types of diskettes  
>with the hub rings never added.  (We don't want to pay more for less!)  

An issue over hub rings:

While it is desirable to find media without hub rings, and yet be DD media,    
it is usually the case that DD and hub rings go together, i.e.  if there are   
no hub rings, the media is likely to be HD.  To confirm that the media is   
indeed DD, the following test will generally work:    

Attempt to format a suspect disk as a normal 1.2 Meg HD diskette.  If there 
are hundreds of kilobytes in bad sectors, then it's likely a DD-type diskette
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are hundreds of kilobytes in bad sectors, then it's likely a DD-type diskette
unsuitable for HD usage and therefore suitable  or DD usage.  If the diskette
gets either no errors or few errors (under 200K in bad sectors) then it's some
form of HD diskette and shouldn't be attempted for RX50 usage.  It may appear
OK o    e PC, but it won't work reliably on (most) real RX50 systems!   

>
      -- Charles Lasner  lasner@watsun.cc.columbia.edu 
>
>                         **************************

I have a question of my own:  

I notice someone claimed that an MS-DOS board was available for the PRO. 
Didn't  EC market a Z80/CP/M board for the PRO?   

cjl     

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