Subject: [os2genau_digest] No. 1599
From: Digest <deadmail>
To: "OS/2GenAu Digest"<deadmail>
Date: Sun, 3 Feb 2008 00:01:21 EST-10EDT,10,-1,0,7200,3,-1,0,7200,3600

**************************************************
Saturday 02 February 2008
 Number  1599
**************************************************

Subjects for today
 
1  Re:  Intermittent problem : Peter Moylan <peter at pmoylan dot org>
2  Re:  Intermittent problem : Robert Traynor  (BobT)" <rtraynor at optusnet dot com dot au>
3  Re:  Intermittent problem : Robert Traynor  (BobT)" <rtraynor at optusnet dot com dot au>
4  Re:  Intermittent problem : Alan Duval <amoht at westnet dot com dot au>
5  Re:  Intermittent problem : Robert Traynor  (BobT)" <rtraynor at optusnet dot com dot au>
6  Re:  Intermittent problem : Tom Duval <amoht at westnet dot com dot au>
7  Re:  Intermittent problem : Robert Traynor  (BobT)" <rtraynor at optusnet dot com dot au>
8  Re:  Intermittent problem : Ed Durrant <edurrant at durrant dot mine dot nu>
9  Re:  Intermittent problem : Paul Smedley <paul at smedley dot id dot au>
10  Re:  Intermittent problem : Ed Durrant <edurrant at durrant dot mine dot nu>
11  Re:  Intermittent problem : John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
12  Re:  Intermittent problem : Ian Manners" <deadmail>

**= Email   1 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 00:46:32 +1100
From:  Peter Moylan <peter at pmoylan dot org>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

On 01/02/08 22:43, Alan Duval wrote:

> [attachments have been removed]

Remark: there's never any point in sending mail with attachments to a
mailing list, because almost all mailing list software has an option to
strip off the attachments; and almost all mailing list owners use this
option, on the theory that an attachment is usually either a virus, a
graphical form of spam, or an HTML copy of the message that some
brain-dead mail clients insist on including.

There's a good chance that your mail client is misconfigured. I know
that Thunderbird is set up to send HTML _by default_, presumably because
most of the Mozilla developers these days are Windows refugees: people
who have never escaped the mindset that says that e-mail should be in
the form that the sender prefers (50 different fonts, blinking text,
garish colours, and smilies) rather than the form that most recipients
prefer (plain text).

Or perhaps it's just because most e-mail is spam, therefore it's
important to support the formats that spammers prefer.

-- 
Peter Moylan                          peter at pmoylan dot org
                                       http://www.pmoylan dot org

Note: Mail to and from hotmail addresses often doesn't arrive,
and hotmail doesn't inform the sender about lost mail.  Mail
through standards-conforming mail servers is still reliable.
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**= Email   2 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 06:51:53 +1100
From:  "Robert Traynor  (BobT)" <rtraynor at optusnet dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:36:25 +1100, Alan Duval wrote:
> It's a  higher voltage than the one you installed.

You mean higher WATTAGE.
It cannot be higher VOLTAGE.

I am suspicious of your power in your house.  You may be experiencing
power spikes/surges.  Your other email says you don't have a UPS.

Regards,
Robert Traynor (BobT).
2 February 2008   6:49

   ,-._|\       Robert Traynor        (BobT)
 /  Oz  \   email    rtraynor.removeme at removeme.optusnet dot com dot au
 \_,--.x/ 

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**= Email   3 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 08:11:25 +1100
From:  "Robert Traynor  (BobT)" <rtraynor at optusnet dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:43:05 +1100, Alan Duval wrote:
> I'll have to go back to the local PC shop to get the required details 
> but won't be able to do so till Monday as I've got a lot to do tomorrow.

Just take the side off the computer case and note the details from the 
sticker on the power supply unit.

Robert Traynor (BobT).
2 February 2008   8:11

   ,-._|\       Robert Traynor        (BobT)
 /  Oz  \   email    rtraynor.removeme at removeme.optusnet dot com dot au
 \_,--.x/ 

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**= Email   4 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 15:13:32 +1100
From:  Alan Duval <amoht at westnet dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

Hi Peter,

I don't know what you are referring to as I have not sent any Email to 
the os2genau site with attachments.

Regards,

Alan

Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 01/02/08 22:43, Alan Duval wrote:
>
>> [attachments have been removed]
>
> Remark: there's never any point in sending mail with attachments to a
> mailing list, because almost all mailing list software has an option to
> strip off the attachments; and almost all mailing list owners use this
> option, on the theory that an attachment is usually either a virus, a
> graphical form of spam, or an HTML copy of the message that some
> brain-dead mail clients insist on including.
>
> There's a good chance that your mail client is misconfigured. I know
> that Thunderbird is set up to send HTML _by default_, presumably because
> most of the Mozilla developers these days are Windows refugees: people
> who have never escaped the mindset that says that e-mail should be in
> the form that the sender prefers (50 different fonts, blinking text,
> garish colours, and smilies) rather than the form that most recipients
> prefer (plain text).
>
> Or perhaps it's just because most e-mail is spam, therefore it's
> important to support the formats that spammers prefer.
>

[attachments have been removed]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   5 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 15:26:06 +1100
From:  "Robert Traynor  (BobT)" <rtraynor at optusnet dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

Alan,

Peter Moylan is referring to your FIRST email on this topic that had the words:-

  [attachments have been removed]         in it at the bottom. 

This has likely been auto added by whatever email client you are using,
and perhaps may be adding a signature graphic or a bit of crap like
that added by microsoft email programs.

Ian Manners setup on his server, is to NOT allow attachments to this list
and is his chosen default.

This is definitely getting off topic and you obviously did not intend to send
an attachment, so I suggest this be forgotten about and get back to the 
problem at hand.

Regards,
Robert Traynor (BobT).
2 February 2008   15:25

On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 15:13:32 +1100, Alan Duval wrote:
> Hi Peter,
> 
> I don't know what you are referring to as I have not sent any Email to 
> the os2genau site with attachments.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Alan
> 
> Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 01/02/08 22:43, Alan Duval wrote:
> >
> >> [attachments have been removed]
> >

   ,-._|\       Robert Traynor        (BobT)
 /  Oz  \   email    rtraynor.removeme at removeme.optusnet dot com dot au
 \_,--.x/ 

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**= Email   6 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:03:35 +0000
From:  Tom Duval <amoht at westnet dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

Robert Traynor (BobT) wrote:

>On Fri, 01 Feb 2008 22:36:25 +1100, Alan Duval wrote:
>  
>
>>It's a  higher voltage than the one you installed.
>>    
>>
>
>You mean higher WATTAGE.
>It cannot be higher VOLTAGE.
>  
>
Oops, forgive my boo boo.

The power supply is a BESTA PT-550.  Total output is 550 W
A/C input             115/250 V
                               50/60 Hz
                               6A/4A
DC output  (Max)   +33V      29A
                                +5V        43A
                                +12V      18A
                                -12V       0.8A
                                +5Vsd     2.5A
Looks like it's made in Germany and is marked as  supporting AMD and Intel.

>I am suspicious of your power in your house.  You may be experiencing
>power spikes/surges.  Your other email says you don't have a UPS.
>  
>
By UPS I take it to mean one of those units that maintain a constant 
voltage and which have a battery  in case of  a blackout.  I do have a 
surge protector.

I have taken the new HD out of the removable cradle and connected 
directly.  At present I am using my new eCs installation so will see 
whether the problem recurs.
The local PC repair man says people get a lot of problems in the 
Peninsula area due to fluctuations in the electricity supply.

Regards,

Alan
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**= Email   7 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:09:20 +1100
From:  "Robert Traynor  (BobT)" <rtraynor at optusnet dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

Hi Alan,

answers below....

On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 18:03:35 +0000, Tom Duval wrote:
<SNIP>

> By UPS I take it to mean one of those units that maintain a constant 
> voltage and which have a battery  in case of  a blackout.  I do have a 
> surge protector.

Yes, that is what a UPS is.  Good that you have a surge protector and
not a device with "overload protection" ie a circuit breaker.
A true surge protector is better for VOLTAGE overload spikes or surges
whereas a device with "overload protection" will only give CURRENT
overload protection and not voltage overload protection.

Surge protectors should be replaced at regular intervals depending on the
type.  More expensive ones indicate when they have failed, the cheap 
ones only give an indication by melting when/if they have done their job
and burnt out sacrificially.  Otherwise they give NO indication that their
efficiency may have dropped below par.

Consequently, the cheap ones should be replaced every so often.
Some have said every 6 years. I don't know myself what the correct time
is likely to be.

More expensive units like the Belkin range have indicator LEDs and an
insurance policy from $5,000 and up depending on the model and
price.

A UPS is BOTH a battery backup that can produce a controlled AC 240volt
supply in the event of either a lack of AC power or (on better ones)
a low or OVER voltage AC supply.  It will also act as a far more efficient
surge protector as well.

> I have taken the new HD out of the removable cradle and connected 
> directly.  At present I am using my new eCs installation so will see 
> whether the problem recurs.

Good starting point.  Always simplify a system when problem solving.!

> The local PC repair man says people get a lot of problems in the 
> Peninsula area due to fluctuations in the electricity supply.

Bingo.!  UPS needed. Urgently.!

Damn, where are my UPS Company shares...!  :-)  :-)  :-)

HTH,
Regards,
Robert Traynor (BobT).
2 February 2008   18:59

   ,-._|\       Robert Traynor        (BobT)
 /  Oz  \   email    rtraynor.removeme at removeme.optusnet dot com dot au
 \_,--.x/ 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   8 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 19:40:53 +1100
From:  Ed Durrant <edurrant at durrant dot mine dot nu>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

Robert Traynor (BobT) wrote:
>> The local PC repair man says people get a lot of problems in the 
>> Peninsula area due to fluctuations in the electricity supply.
>>     
>
> Bingo.!  UPS needed. Urgently.!
>
>
> Damn, where are my UPS Company shares...!  :-)  :-)  :-)
>
> HTH,
> Regards,
> Robert Traynor (BobT).
> 2 February 2008   18:59
>   
I just replaced my cheap $150 (4 years ago) UPS with a $79 one from eBay 
- I then bought another for my wife's system. They've kicked in 
perfectly three times in the last two months when the power has gone out 
on the Penninsula (Central Coast NSW). These are Chinese built "CABAC" 
650DV2 units and power without issue my AMD X2 system, laptop, LCD 
monitor (and CRT before it), VOIP ATA, WiFi access point, network 
switch, ADSL 2+ modem and probably a couple of other devices I have 
forgotten. The rule is however, NEVER connect a printer to the UPS, 
(especially a laser printer), the surge they pull when starting up can 
cause the UPS permanent damage.

Unfortunately monitoring on them is USB, so no OS/2 compatible software 
that I have found - but really since they keep the systems running for 
up to 30 minutes, it's plenty of time to save what you are working on 
and manually shutdown the systems.

Cheers/2

Ed.
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**= Email   9 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:51:44 +1030
From:  Paul Smedley <paul at smedley dot id dot au>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

Hi Ed,

Ed Durrant wrote:
> I just replaced my cheap $150 (4 years ago) UPS with a $79 one from eBay 
> - I then bought another for my wife's system. They've kicked in 
> perfectly three times in the last two months when the power has gone out 
> on the Penninsula (Central Coast NSW). These are Chinese built "CABAC" 
> 650DV2 units and power without issue my AMD X2 system, laptop, LCD 
> monitor (and CRT before it), VOIP ATA, WiFi access point, network 
> switch, ADSL 2+ modem and probably a couple of other devices I have 
> forgotten. The rule is however, NEVER connect a printer to the UPS, 
> (especially a laser printer), the surge they pull when starting up can 
> cause the UPS permanent damage.

Got any more details on these - the only ones I could see on ebay were 
$129....

Cheers,

Paul.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   10 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 21:48:45 +1100
From:  Ed Durrant <edurrant at durrant dot mine dot nu>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

Paul Smedley wrote:
> Hi Ed,
>
> Ed Durrant wrote:
>> I just replaced my cheap $150 (4 years ago) UPS with a $79 one from 
>> eBay - I then bought another for my wife's system. They've kicked in 
>> perfectly three times in the last two months when the power has gone 
>> out on the Penninsula (Central Coast NSW). These are Chinese built 
>> "CABAC" 650DV2 units and power without issue my AMD X2 system, 
>> laptop, LCD monitor (and CRT before it), VOIP ATA, WiFi access point, 
>> network switch, ADSL 2+ modem and probably a couple of other devices 
>> I have forgotten. The rule is however, NEVER connect a printer to the 
>> UPS, (especially a laser printer), the surge they pull when starting 
>> up can cause the UPS permanent damage.
>
> Got any more details on these - the only ones I could see on ebay were 
> $129....
>
> Cheers,
>
> Paul.
 
>
> 

>
Looks like they've gone up to $95 now:

http://cgi.ebay dot com dot au/CABAC-650VA-UPS-LCD-DISPLAY-15MIN-BACKUP-12MTS-WTY-95_W0QQitemZ190194164401QQihZ009QQcategoryZ111430QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Cheers/2

Ed.
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**= Email   11 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 22:19:16 +1000 (AEST)
From:  "John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 20:51:44 +1030, Paul Smedley wrote:

>Hi Ed,
>
>Ed Durrant wrote:
>> I just replaced my cheap $150 (4 years ago) UPS with a $79 one from eBay 
>> - I then bought another for my wife's system. They've kicked in 
>> perfectly three times in the last two months when the power has gone out 
>> on the Penninsula (Central Coast NSW). These are Chinese built "CABAC" 
>> 650DV2 units and power without issue my AMD X2 system, laptop, LCD 
>> monitor (and CRT before it), VOIP ATA, WiFi access point, network 
>> switch, ADSL 2+ modem and probably a couple of other devices I have 
>> forgotten. The rule is however, NEVER connect a printer to the UPS, 
>> (especially a laser printer), the surge they pull when starting up can 
>> cause the UPS permanent damage.
>
>Got any more details on these - the only ones I could see on ebay were 
>$129....
>
>Cheers,
>
>Paul.

Uh, Ed.

You might like to check their capabilities after three successful uses.

UPSs have a limited capacity to work - absorb spikes, supply power as
designed - as their electronics eventually tire out.

At work we had one heavy duty UPS for the server which conked out after
coping with 3 storms. The server went down during our fourth storm (before
Christmas). It had been in service for some years, but be warned, they do
eventually fail to do their job.

It's better to learn that *before* you need to rely on them. :-) 

Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
os2 at melbpc dot org dot au or 
talldad at kepl dot com dot au
___________________
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**= Email   12 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Feb 2008 23:37:40 +1100 (EDT)
From:  "Ian Manners" <deadmail>
Subject:  Re:  Intermittent problem

Bit of info for you all, as I've had a lot to do with batteries
in the mining and electronics industry.

Sealed gel batteries are not designed to be deep cycled, so
everytime they are used for more than just shutting down a
PC they will suffer damage to the plates.

Damage is also slowly caused to the plates by the continues
trickle charging.

Rule of thumb for UPS's, replace the batteries EVERY 2 years.
Home use I would recommend 2-3 years.

The cheaper UPS's will also suffer heat damage to the components
around the switching transisters.

I use 2 x 1800VA UPS's here, both have fans, both have been
opened by myself for inspection and checking the solder joints
/air flow and I like to replace tab heat sinks with something a bit
bigger. I also have what we call "Loco" batteries, these are
better designed for deep discharge as I expect my servers to
remain up :-).

Unless you know what you are doing however I would NOT
recommend you open your own UPS up, there are LETHAL
voltages floating around the circuit board, and with some UPS's
even when disconnected from the wall, they still have batterys
inside that can start the UPS up ! 

I might also add that some companies take liberties with the
ratings.

Cheers
Ian Manners
http://www.os2site dot com/

Themosthorrendouslydifficultproblemwithtaglinesisfindingenoughspace!!
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