Subject: [os2genau_digest] No. 482
From: Digest <deadmail>
To: "OS/2GenAu Digest"<deadmail>
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2002 00:02:02 EST-10EDT,10,-1,0,7200,3,-1,0,7200,3600

**************************************************
Saturday 02 November 2002
 Number  482
**************************************************

Subjects for today
 
1  [os2genau] _digest] NS 4.61 crashes with SYS3171 : PJ Routledge <pjr at melbpc dot org dot au>
2  [os2genau] _digest] Browser statistics : John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
3  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Browser statistics : Ian Manners" <deadmail>
4  Re: [os2genau] _digest] NS 4.61 crashes with SYS3171 : Ian Manners" <deadmail>
5  Re: [os2genau] _digest] NS 4.61 crashes with SYS3171 : Ian Manners" <deadmail>
6  Re: [os2genau] _digest] NS 4.61 crashes with SYS3171 : brianb at kdfisher dot com dot au
7  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Browser statistics : brianb at kdfisher dot com dot au
8  Re: [os2genau] _digest] NS 4.61 crashes with SYS3171 : Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au>
9  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Browser statistics : Chris Graham [WarpSpeed]" <chrisg at warpspeed dot com dot au>
10  Re: [os2genau] Browser statistics : John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>

**= Email   1 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Nov 2002 06:45:10 +1100
From:  PJ Routledge <pjr at melbpc dot org dot au>
Subject:  [os2genau] NS 4.61 crashes with SYS3171

I have Warp 4 with FixPack 15 on a 366MHz Celeron.

There is not much else on the system as I'm taking a slow course of 
gradually adding only what I absolutely must to get those things that I 
need - and only those things - to run.

Netscape 4.61 supposedly only requires FP 5 (and the later installer, 
which is present and seems to be working).

Netscape installed OK, no problems reported.  (I've managed to 
'successfully' install it several times, but never got it to start 
beyond the following.)

Netscape starts, allows me to choose a profile (and create new ones if I 
want to).

The browser window appears briefly on the screen, accompanied by the 
floating component bar.

Netscape immediately crashes and error SYS3171 is reported.  The SYS3171 
details refer to IBMDEV32.DLL, along with the various register contents.

The same problem occurs if I try to start the Mail & Newsgroups 
component.  I haven't tried the other components.

Any knowledge, ideas or suggestions?  (Please don't suggest that I 
install a later FixPack.  I can't.  They won't.  Yet.  This is why I'm 
taking it slowly and gradually.)

Cheers,

Peter Routledge

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   2 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Nov 2002 12:36:29 +1100 (EDT)
From:  "John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
Subject:  [os2genau] Browser statistics

Hi everyone

I am about to engage in a browser dispute with a site provider over
conformance with W3C standards etc.

I know that NS4 does not comply with various particular standards (nor does
IE - on different points) but I have been challenged about the "market
share" of NS by this site claiming they are developing only for IE becase
it's "over 90% of the market." 

I would like to show them a) it's not the only metric and b) it can be
worthwhile coding for the other browsers.

Can anyone point me to relevant stats, please?

Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
talldad at melbpc dot org dot au or talldad at kepl dot com dot au
--------------------------------------------

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
.... The measure of a man is what he does with power. (Pittacus)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   3 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Nov 2002 13:08:55 +1100 (EDT)
From:  "Ian Manners" <deadmail>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] Browser statistics

Hi John

>I know that NS4 does not comply with various particular standards (nor does
>IE - on different points) but I have been challenged about the "market
>share" of NS by this site claiming they are developing only for IE becase
>it's "over 90% of the market." 

Officially the figure is 90-94% for IE market penetration. (see below)
You should instead tell them to ensure they code for the WCW standards
as this is the 100% official standard. If they are not, they do not conform
to the world standard, which also means that they will have problems
with the next release of IE which is more conforming. They should
not use ActiveX widgets for security reasons as well.

If they use MSJAVA, they are also breaking the SUN JAVA
standards, which means about 40-45% of browsers (including IE)
will have problems as a lot of windows users are now using
WindowsJAVA downloaded from SUN.

>I would like to show them a) it's not the only metric and b) it can be
>worthwhile coding for the other browsers.

It is due to people like this that Netscape primarily lost a lot
of there 10% market share last year.

>Can anyone point me to relevant stats, please?

Hmm, I know they are out there, I didnt bookmark any as
I was looking. Using stats is dangerous, as only a cross
section of sites are used, and I noticed the stats where I
got the 90-94% from, most if not all sites were hosted on
Windows platforms, which is not representitive !

http://www dot netcraft dot com/survey/

Make sure you read further down as to what constitutes a
Windows based server, these figures also include MS's
build in server on Win98 etc, which is one by default on
everyones w98 PC's !

I would argue that they should conform to the World Standards,
not to Microsoft Standards. This includes HTML v4.2

Cheers
Ian B Manners
http://www.os2site dot com/

If men can run the world, why can't they stop wearing neckties?
How intelligent is it to start the day by tying a little noose around your
neck?
        -- Linda Ellerbee
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   4 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Nov 2002 13:33:59 +1100 (EDT)
From:  "Ian Manners" <deadmail>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] NS 4.61 crashes with SYS3171

Hi Peter

>I have Warp 4 with FixPack 15 on a 366MHz Celeron.

Should run fine under that.

>Netscape 4.61 supposedly only requires FP 5 (and the later installer, 
>which is present and seems to be working).

Check that you have netscape on your path and dpath in config.sys

Cheers
Ian B Manners
http://www.os2site dot com/

Sign warning of quicksand:
    QUICKSAND. ANY PERSON PASSING THIS POINT WILL BE DROWNED.
    BY ORDER OF THE DISTRICT COUNCIL.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   5 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Nov 2002 13:39:09 +1100 (EDT)
From:  "Ian Manners" <deadmail>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] NS 4.61 crashes with SYS3171

Ding Ding

Netscape also does this if you do not have the TCP/IP
stack loaded.

You have installed TCP/IP ?
and upgraded it to a minimum of 4.02w ?
http://www.os2site dot com/sw/upgrades/tcpip/tcpip40/v402w.txt
http://www.os2site dot com/sw/upgrades/tcpip/tcpip40/v402w.zip

And the stack is running ?

I cant remember if inetver works under v4.0x, try

c:\>inetver

It may return the stack versions.

Cheers
Ian B Manners
http://www.os2site dot com/

recursive (ree 'cuhr siv) adj. - see recursive.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   6 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:20:23 +0930
From:  brianb at kdfisher dot com dot au
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] NS 4.61 crashes with SYS3171

Peter,
If you type
help sys3171
at a command prompt it explains the error.

It suggests it is related to a faulty exception handler.

I would suspect it may be Java related but I am only guessing.

-----------------------------------------
Brian Butler
System Administrator
brianb at kdfisher dot com dot au

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   7 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:27:18 +0930
From:  brianb at kdfisher dot com dot au
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] Browser statistics

John,
Once again I see an argument based on flawed logic.

The "we only develop for IE because 90% of people use it"
is similar logic to the argument that 100% of heroin addicts
started on milk therefore milk leads to heroine abuse.

It also reminds me of a bumper sticker i saw once saying
"Eat crap 50 billion blow flies can't be wrong"

I hope you can convince these MS sycophants but I doubt it.
Good luck!
-----------------------------------------
Brian Butler
System Administrator
brianb at kdfisher dot com dot au

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   8 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Nov 2002 16:32:25 +1100
From:  Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] NS 4.61 crashes with SYS3171

Ian's comment on TCP/IP needing to be loaded is very important - if
you do indeed have the TCP/IP stack loaded and operational, I would
suspect either an incorrect DLL is being used or not being found.

In both these cases I would recommend a total de-install of the
browser (the fact that you said that after the install you are given
the option to chose a profile, tells me you are re-installing rather
than doing a clean install). Once de-installed via the setup
program, reboot and then go back and physically delete the directory
it was installed in. Also go through Config.sys and remove ALL
references to this directory. Another re-boot and then a clean
install.

If this doesn't work, you could be looking at a video driver that
Netscape doesn't like. NS is very sensitive to some video drivers.
If at all possible use SciTech Display Doctor rather than a specific
card related driver. Mosdt code runs with Scitech.

One last question. Is there (or has there been) any other browser
installed (e.g. Mozilla), if so de-install and remove references to
these in config.sys.

Good Luck

Ed Durrant.

PJ Routledge wrote:
> 
> I have Warp 4 with FixPack 15 on a 366MHz Celeron.
> 
> There is not much else on the system as I'm taking a slow course of
> gradually adding only what I absolutely must to get those things that I
> need - and only those things - to run.
> 
> Netscape 4.61 supposedly only requires FP 5 (and the later installer,
> which is present and seems to be working).
> 
> Netscape installed OK, no problems reported.  (I've managed to
> 'successfully' install it several times, but never got it to start
> beyond the following.)
> 
> Netscape starts, allows me to choose a profile (and create new ones if I
> want to).
> 
> The browser window appears briefly on the screen, accompanied by the
> floating component bar.
> 
> Netscape immediately crashes and error SYS3171 is reported.  The SYS3171
> details refer to IBMDEV32.DLL, along with the various register contents.
> 
> The same problem occurs if I try to start the Mail & Newsgroups
> component.  I haven't tried the other components.
> 
> Any knowledge, ideas or suggestions?  (Please don't suggest that I
> install a later FixPack.  I can't.  They won't.  Yet.  This is why I'm
> taking it slowly and gradually.)
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Peter Routledge
> 

>  

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   9 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Nov 2002 18:53:33 +1100 (EDT)
From:  "Chris Graham [WarpSpeed]" <chrisg at warpspeed dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] Browser statistics

On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:27:18 +0930, brianb at kdfisher dot com dot au wrote:

>
>John,
>Once again I see an argument based on flawed logic.
>
>The "we only develop for IE because 90% of people use it"

Ah, the arguement for poor design.

-Chris

WarpSpeed Computers - The Graham Utilities for OS/2.
Voice:  +61-3-9307-0611  PO Box 212   FidoNet:     3:632/344
FAX:    +61-3-9307-0633  Brunswick    Internet:    chrisg at warpspeed dot com dot au
BBS:    +61-3-9307-0644  VIC 3056     CompuServe:  100250,1645
300-28,800  N,8,1 ANSI   Australia    Web Page:
                                      http://www.warpspeed dot com dot au

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   10 ==========================**

Date:  Sat, 02 Nov 2002 17:42:39 +1100 (EDT)
From:  "John Angelico" <talldad at kepl dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] Browser statistics

On Sat, 2 Nov 2002 13:27:18 +0930, brianb at kdfisher dot com dot au wrote:

Hi Brian.

>
>John,
>Once again I see an argument based on flawed logic.
>

Yes, we all see the problem. Not only that they won't accept a logical
rebuttal.
 
>The "we only develop for IE because 90% of people use it"
>is similar logic to the argument that 100% of heroin addicts
>started on milk therefore milk leads to heroine abuse.

Yeah, the Latins called it "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" - after it,
therefore because of it.

>
>It also reminds me of a bumper sticker i saw once saying
>"Eat crap 50 billion blow flies can't be wrong"

<G>A bit crass but so true.

>
>I hope you can convince these MS sycophants but I doubt it.
>Good luck!

Thanks. I mainly aim to make small advances...incremental improvements. I
have no illusions about any Grand Victory over Blindness and Stupidity.

PS folks: the site is http://www.cfoweb dot com dot au/softwareguide/products.asp
The CFO Magazine Accounting Software Guide for 2002.
But be warned, you will find the web equivalent of "please don't ask for
credit as a punch in the mouth often offends"

Best regards
John Angelico
OS/2 SIG
talldad at melbpc dot org dot au or talldad at kepl dot com dot au
--------------------------------------------

PMTagline v1.50 - Copyright, 1996-1997, Stephen Berg and John Angelico
.... Yes Mr Gates, I'd like to help you out ... which way did you come in?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------