Subject: [os2genau_digest] No. 424
From: Digest <deadmail>
To: "OS/2GenAu Digest"<deadmail>
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:01:05 EST-10EDT,10,-1,0,7200,3,-1,0,7200,3600

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Friday 16 August 2002
 Number  424
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Subjects for today
 
1  [os2genau] _digest] Low level format : Tony Wilson" <redhill at redhill dot net dot au>
2  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Low level format : Mike O'Connor" <mikeoc at dodo dot com dot au>
3  Re: [os2genau] ot: low level format, how ? : Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au>
4  Re: [os2genau] ot: low level format, how ? : Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
5  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Low level format : Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
6  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Low level format : Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
7  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Low level format : Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
8  [os2genau] OT: Interesting mouse effect in NS 4.61 : Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au>
9  [os2genau] Armando, OS/2 Warp, and life in general : Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
10  Re: [os2genau] Armando, OS/2 Warp, and life in general : Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au>
11  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Low level format : Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
12  Re: [os2genau] Armando, OS/2 Warp, and life in general : Kris Steenhaut <kris.steenhaut at hccnet.nl>

**= Email   1 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 02:04:16 +1000
From:  "Tony Wilson" <redhill at redhill dot net dot au>
Subject:  [os2genau] _digest] Low level format

The short answer is that you *can't* low-level format a modern drive. All modern drives - by which I mean anything made in 
the last ten years or so - are low-level formatted at the factory, and cannot be LL formatted anywhere else. It requires special 
equipment. Modern drives, be they IDE or SCSI, have complex data structures, with the head positioning information written 
onto the data surface of the disc itself, freely intrmixed with the user data. The days when servo positioning information was 
confined to a seperate data surface are long over. The last drives to do this were some high-end SCSI drives in in the half-
height, 9.1GB era. But most other drives had gone to embedded servo long since.

What you *can* do is write zeros to the data areas of the drive, using any of the various drive manufacturer-supplied utility 
proframs. IBM, for example, have WIPE and ZAP. Both are free downloads from http://storage.ibm dot com The "low level 
format" provided by most SCSI BIOSes is a "fake" format. It is exactly the same as the zero-writing you get from a program 
like WDCLEAR or WIPE. Some ordinary motherboard BIOSes can do this too/. It was particularly common during the 286 
era, but you still see it from time to time even today. What these BIOS utilities do is issue LLF commands to the drives, but 
the drives themselves are smart enough to sense the LLF command and substitute a non-fatal zero-write routine instead. A 
few transitional period drives, typically 40MB to 120MB IDE units, *would* attemt to low-level format themselves. The result, 
of course, was a dead drive. Wihout servo positioning information, a voice-coil drive cannot function at all.

Another thing you can do, if you suspect deterioration of the drive surface here and there, is run an excellent non-destructive 
utility caled Spinrite. You can buy it from www.grc dot com It's about $50 US, I think, and worth every penny. Yes - that's the 
same Spinrite that was around in MFM days, and Steve Gibson still maintains it. These days Steve Gibson is better known 
for his views on internet security - or notorious might be a term better liked in some quarters - and for programs such as 
ShieldsUp! But while his take on security is controversial, I have never yet heard anyone say that Steve doesn't know a great 
deal about hard drives. If Spinrite can't rescue a marginal drive, nothing can.

For more on drives and formatting, visit:

www.fdisk dot com
www.storageforum dot net
www.storagereview dot com
www.redhill dot net dot au/id.html

Forgive me - it's late and I'm not going to proof-read this. 1:55AM and this little chicken is headed for bed!

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**= Email   2 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 03:53:18 +1000
From:  "Mike O'Connor" <mikeoc at dodo dot com dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Low level format

Tony Wilson wrote:

> The short answer is that you *can't* low-level format a modern drive. All modern drives - by which I mean anything made in 
> the last ten years or so - are low-level formatted at the factory, and cannot be LL formatted anywhere else. It requires special 
> equipment. Modern drives, be they IDE or SCSI, have complex data structures, with the head positioning information written 
> onto the data surface of the disc itself, freely intrmixed with the user data. The days when servo positioning information was 
> confined to a seperate data surface are long over. The last drives to do this were some high-end SCSI drives in in the half-
> height, 9.1GB era. But most other drives had gone to embedded servo long since.
> 
> What you *can* do is write zeros to the data areas of the drive, using any of the various drive manufacturer-supplied utility 
> proframs. IBM, for example, have WIPE and ZAP. Both are free downloads from http://storage.ibm dot com The "low level 
> format" provided by most SCSI BIOSes is a "fake" format. It is exactly the same as the zero-writing you get from a program 
> like WDCLEAR or WIPE. Some ordinary motherboard BIOSes can do this too/. It was particularly common during the 286 
> era, but you still see it from time to time even today. What these BIOS utilities do is issue LLF commands to the drives, but 
> the drives themselves are smart enough to sense the LLF command and substitute a non-fatal zero-write routine instead. A 
> few transitional period drives, typically 40MB to 120MB IDE units, *would* attemt to low-level format themselves. The result, 
> of course, was a dead drive. Wihout servo positioning information, a voice-coil drive cannot function at all.
> 
> Another thing you can do, if you suspect deterioration of the drive surface here and there, is run an excellent non-destructive 
> utility caled Spinrite. You can buy it from www.grc dot com It's about $50 US, I think, and worth every penny. Yes - that's the 
> same Spinrite that was around in MFM days, and Steve Gibson still maintains it. These days Steve Gibson is better known 
> for his views on internet security - or notorious might be a term better liked in some quarters - and for programs such as 
> ShieldsUp! But while his take on security is controversial, I have never yet heard anyone say that Steve doesn't know a great 
> deal about hard drives. If Spinrite can't rescue a marginal drive, nothing can.
> 
> For more on drives and formatting, visit:
> 
> www.fdisk dot com
> www.storageforum dot net
> www.storagereview dot com
> www.redhill dot net dot au/id.html
> 
> Forgive me - it's late and I'm not going to proof-read this. 1:55AM and this little chicken is headed for bed!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

>  

> 
> 
> 
Thanks Tony for putting it all so succinctly - there are a few dedicated 
SCSI (only) OS/2 users who have been arguing that all SCSI drives can be 
LLFed using the HBA  facilities!
Regards,
Mike

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**= Email   3 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:46:43 +1000
From:  Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] ot: low level format, how ?

When you buy a new drive, it is already low-level formatted for you, you don't need to do this. Low level
formatting is used (by the customer) to "repair" a faulty drive.

Cheers/2

Ed.

ve wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:01:55 +1100 (EDT), Gavin Miller wrote:
>
> >Excuse my ignorance but........What is Low level formatting?
>
> bfore a hd can be used, it needs: low level formatting, then, partitioning (fdisk), then, op sys format
>

>  

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**= Email   4 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:50:31
From:  Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] ot: low level format, how ?

** Reply to note from Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au> Fri, 16 Aug 2002 07:46:43 +1000

> When you buy a new drive, it is already low-level formatted for you, you don't 
> need to do this. Low level

of course
 
> formatting is used (by the customer) to "repair" a faulty drive.

and, that was the aim

Voytek Eymont
SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd
http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/
phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 
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**= Email   5 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:12:50
From:  Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Low level format

** Reply to note from "Tony Wilson" <redhill at redhill dot net dot au> Fri, 16 Aug 2002 02:04:16 +1000

> utility caled Spinrite. You can buy it from www.grc dot com It's about $50 US, I 
> think, and worth every penny. Yes - that's the  
> same Spinrite that was around in MFM days, and Steve Gibson still maintains 
> it. These days Steve Gibson is better known  
> for his views on internet security - or notorious might be a term better liked 
> in some quarters - and for programs such as  
> ShieldsUp! But while his take on security is controversial, I have never yet 
> heard anyone say that Steve doesn't know a great  
> deal about hard drives. 

yes, I have used Spinrite many times, to optimize interleaving, etc, long,
long time ago, I most likely have an ancient version somewhere...
and, yes, it certainly was one of the better tools at that time (and,
possibly, still is)

and, yes, ShieldsUp! is a handy windoze tool

but to me, Steve Gibson is also better known for his anti OS/2 views, in
his, whatever the mag was, IDG ? Infoworld ? column. Perhaps they were not
'anti OS/2' as such, but more, 'all the way with BG & MS', whatever, Steve
Gibson is certainly one fo many computer media personalities that went of
his way to help the demise of OS/2. 

It's sad, but true. A person with his knowledge would clearly be able to
differentiate technical advantages versus marketing advantages, and, say so.

I guess, vested interest, $$$, is a powerfull enough reason not to.

Voytek Eymont
SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd
http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/
phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 
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**= Email   6 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:29:56
From:  Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Low level format

** Reply to note from "Tony Wilson" <redhill at redhill dot net dot au> Fri, 16 Aug 2002 02:04:16 +1000

thanks, Tony, for a lesson.

I guess, I'll stop trying to debug g C800....

looking at ibm storage, both wipe/zap came now as part of DFT, downloading
now, I hope the Linux bin format will unimage with whatever it's called,
that Valot's sp ? unimage tool.

> IBM, for example, have WIPE and ZAP. Both are free downloads from 
> http://storage.ibm dot com The "low level

Voytek Eymont
SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd
http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/
phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 
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**= Email   7 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:35:44
From:  Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Low level format

** Reply to note from Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au> Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:29:56 

> looking at ibm storage, both wipe/zap came now as part of DFT, downloading 
> now, I hope the Linux bin format will unimage with whatever it's called, 
> that Valot's sp ? unimage tool.

before anyone asks:

emt, and, yes, it does unimage the 'linux' download:

<groper>[K:\]emt4os2 DFTV310_IMG.BIN a:

��������������������������������������ͻ
�        -EMT4OS2  Version 1.42-       �
� Daniel Valot 1991-1995 IBM France    �
��������������������������������������ͼ

EMT4OS2  Image for a 2 sides, 18 sect. per track, 80 tracks 1.4 m diskette
EMT4OS2  This is a DISKIMGE file type.
         Input file size = 1474560
100 percent copied
EMT4OS2  Please, note Diskimage file CRC code :  X'10F9'

Voytek Eymont
SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd
http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/
phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 
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**= Email   8 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:07:10 +1000
From:  Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au>
Subject:  [os2genau] OT: Interesting mouse effect in NS 4.61

Checkout the following site - it's in German, don't worry about that,
just take a look at the mouse cursor - a dancing Elvis !!

http://www.br-online.de/bayern3/live/audio/

Cheers/2

Ed.

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**= Email   9 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:37:40
From:  Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
Subject:  [os2genau] Armando, OS/2 Warp, and life in general

Ed, 

as to you comment of some time ago, that IBM's Armando Flores was the
IBMer responsible for IBM's OS/2 stuff, or, more to the point, to some
denial of an Armando Flores:

I'm just assisting with some OS/2 Soft Choice tech problem issue, and, Ed,
you're 100% correct: my query has been forwarded to IBM's Armando Flores.

so, Ed, you're correct, an Armando Flores is the IBMer responsible for OS/2.

/BUT, no, you can not purchase OS/2 as a product./

PLEASE, let's NOT restart that futile discussion, I simply wanted to confirm
Ed *was* correct as far as IBM's Armando Flores.

Voytek Eymont
SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd
http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/
phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 
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**= Email   10 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:11:28 +1000
From:  Ed Durrant <edurrant at bigpond dot net dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] Armando, OS/2 Warp, and life in general

http://www.amazon dot com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002S8D6/qid=1029467045/sr=8-5/ref=sr_8_5/102-2035637-2587341?s=software&n=507846

Voytek Eymont wrote:

> Ed,
>
> as to you comment of some time ago, that IBM's Armando Flores was the
> IBMer responsible for IBM's OS/2 stuff, or, more to the point, to some
> denial of an Armando Flores:
>
> I'm just assisting with some OS/2 Soft Choice tech problem issue, and, Ed,
> you're 100% correct: my query has been forwarded to IBM's Armando Flores.
>
> so, Ed, you're correct, an Armando Flores is the IBMer responsible for OS/2.
>
> /BUT, no, you can not purchase OS/2 as a product./
>
> PLEASE, let's NOT restart that futile discussion, I simply wanted to confirm
> Ed *was* correct as far as IBM's Armando Flores.
>
> Voytek Eymont
> SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd
> http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/
> phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118

>  

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**= Email   11 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:46:49
From:  Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] _digest] Low level format

** Reply to note from Voytek Eymont <voytek at sbt dot net dot au> Fri, 16 Aug 2002 10:29:56 

> looking at ibm storage, both wipe/zap came now as part of DFT, downloading

current version, 3.1, refuses to fix non-IBM drives;
version 3.0, didn't refuse, and, fixed it, thanks

Voytek Eymont
SBT Information Systems Pty Ltd
http://www.sbt dot net dot au/links/
phone +61-2 9310-1144 fax +61-2 9310-1118 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**= Email   12 ==========================**

Date:  Fri, 16 Aug 2002 09:16:49 +0200
From:  Kris Steenhaut <kris.steenhaut at hccnet.nl>
Subject:  Re: [os2genau] Armando, OS/2 Warp, and life in general

Ed Durrant schreef:

> http://www.amazon dot com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00002S8D6/qid=1029467045/sr=8-5/ref=sr_8_5/102-2035637-2587341?s=software&n=507846
>

Ed, you are you saying now amazon dot com is part of Big Blue <G>.

--
Groeten uit Gent,

   Kris

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