From arnold at skeeve.com  Fri Nov  1 00:10:39 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:10:39 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>

Tom,

Thanks.

AIX/370 existed and I *think* would boot on bare metal instead of running
on top of VM.  I don't know what, if any, relationship it had to the
Locus work. (In the late '80s I worked at a university computing center
with VMS, Suns, and IBM gear; so I'm recalling what I heard. I never
actually saw AIX/370 running.)

> The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside of
> TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells's ESS group
> used.

That's what I thought. That clarifies the README for the TUHS archives
(Warren, ...).

> Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for Hitachi),
> and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.

Any chance on getting those? ISTR that it was SunOS 4.0 that was
ported. Larry -- any firsthand knowledge on that?

Arnold

From lm at mcvoy.com  Fri Nov  1 00:22:09 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 07:22:09 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <20191031142209.GB8468@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 08:10:39AM -0600, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> > Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for Hitachi),
> > and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.
> 
> Any chance on getting those? ISTR that it was SunOS 4.0 that was
> ported. Larry -- any firsthand knowledge on that?

As surprised as I am to admit this, I knew nothing about this.  Never even
heard about it.

From spedraja at gmail.com  Fri Nov  1 00:24:53 2019
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 15:24:53 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CACytpF_nTVp2W=AYWcjAxM-gw2a3YGUQ2HLw-HCWiN3L_zzYnw@mail.gmail.com>

El jue., 31 oct. 2019 a las 15:11, <arnold at skeeve.com> escribió:

> Tom,
>
> > The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside of
> > TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells's ESS
> group
> > used.
>
> That's what I thought. That clarifies the README for the TUHS archives
> (Warren, ...).
>

Just in case someone would like to put an eye on it, there is one copy of
TSS available to run under Hercules.

Regards
Sergio
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From heinz at osta.com  Fri Nov  1 01:10:22 2019
From: heinz at osta.com (Heinz Lycklama)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 08:10:22 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0a6ceaeb-29d0-8bae-ec17-51c0d4a73bc6@osta.com>

We (INTERACTIVE Systems Corp.) also did a port of UNIX to
IBM's VM/370 for IBM in the mid 1980's. Also ported UNIX
to Hitachi's mainframe in the late 1980's, although it's not
mentioned here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactive_Systems_Corporation

Heinz

On 10/31/2019 6:51 AM, Tom Lyon wrote:
> The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside 
> of TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells's 
> ESS group used.
>
> Clem can tell us all about the IBM/Locus port to the 370.  And maybe 
> there was another IBM port??
>
> Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for 
> Hitachi), and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.
>
> On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 12:51 AM <arnold at skeeve.com 
> <mailto:arnold at skeeve.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Tom,
>
>     Kudos for making these things available. The links are great reading
>     as well.
>
>     I have the strong impression that this is different from the port
>     at Bell Labs described in the 1984 BSTJ article; can you confirm?
>
>     Warren, can you add the links into the README or whatever that's
>     in the archive?
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Arnold
>
>     Tom Lyon <pugs at ieee.org <mailto:pugs at ieee.org>> wrote:
>
>     > Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by
>     Stephen at
>     > LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
>     > You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
>     > https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/
>     >
>     > If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need
>     Hercules with a
>     > VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's
>     not a lot
>     > beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
>     > worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
>     > problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
>     > networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything
>     with the
>     > recovered bits.
>     >
>     > I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken
>     Thompson and
>     > Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer
>     at Bell
>     > with the Interdata 8/32 here:
>     https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/
>     >
>     > On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org
>     <mailto:wkt at tuhs.org>> wrote:
>     >
>     > > All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to
>     announce has
>     > > arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the
>     booting PDP-7.
>     > >
>     > > So, cast your eyes on
>     https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
>     > >
>     > > Cheers, Warren
>     > >
>     > > P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
>     > >
>     >
>     >
>     > --
>     > - Tom
>
>
>
> -- 
> - Tom

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From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Nov  1 01:12:57 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:12:57 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfoXRO+AU3ZFf5cZ7AuZx3_fKx7FV+WJVMFUmPee7pfTMQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 9:57 PM Tom Lyon <pugs at ieee.org> wrote:

> Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at
> LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
> You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/
>
> If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need Hercules with a
> VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's not a lot
> beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
> worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
> problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
> networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything with the
> recovered bits.
>
> I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and
> Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell
> with the Interdata 8/32 here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/
>

These are interesting bits that add to the flavor of what we know already.
Thank you for taking the time to write this up...

One interesting thing from this. Your UNIX 370 port was started before the
Wollongong Interdata port. Your work on Unix 370 started in August of '75,
but the Wollongong port started in November '76 and was put into production
in July '77.

And we have the TSS/370 port described in the BSTJ, and the Bell Lab's
Intersil 8/32 port. It makes me wonder what other porting efforts had
started in the 75-78 time frame....

Warner


> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
>> arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting PDP-7.
>>
>> So, cast your eyes on https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
>>
>> Cheers, Warren
>>
>> P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
>>
>
>
> --
> - Tom
>
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From sauer at technologists.com  Fri Nov  1 01:31:16 2019
From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer)
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 10:31:16 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <230cba3b-4362-fc32-e4c4-b4cdd2fe28cb@technologists.com>

AIX/370 was done by LCC, primarily in Santa Monica. AIX PS/2 was also 
part of that effort. Clem probably remembers more. Charlie

On 10/31/2019 9:10 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:

> AIX/370 existed and I *think* would boot on bare metal instead of running
> on top of VM.  I don't know what, if any, relationship it had to the
> Locus work. (In the late '80s I worked at a university computing center
> with VMS, Suns, and IBM gear; so I'm recalling what I heard. I never
> actually saw AIX/370 running.)

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer at technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Nov  2 02:40:58 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 09:40:58 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Ms2gMX6BV_EcKE23-rp4eBKMfSwNGFo+QuG_N4HYiKjA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 6:52 AM Tom Lyon <pugs at ieee.org> wrote:

> The Bell Labs 370 port was different, it was based on running inside of
> TSS/370, which was an IBM OS which hardly anyone besides Bells's ESS group
> used.
>

It's funny, I did not learn of it until after CMU discommomission that
IBM/TSS system which I broke in on.

>
> Clem can tell us all about the IBM/Locus port to the 370.
>
Yeah it was called and would be a product Locus did for IBM (AIX/370)
primarily for the University market.   It's what the Locus (TCF) book
describes.



> And maybe there was another IBM port??
>
I'm not sure what Amdahl had originally.  I had always thought it was based
on your original from Princeton.




>
> Much later, Sun ported Solaris to the Hitachi HDS 370 clones (for
> Hitachi), and then to Amdahl clones for Amdahl/Fujitsu.
>
I heard that had been done, but never knew how well it worked.
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From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Nov  2 02:52:03 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 09:52:03 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Pz5d4n3ZDhP85d0dX97jLUi=kDKDKdNMZdw2D32Mk72w@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 7:11 AM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

> Tom,
>
> Thanks.
>
> AIX/370 existed and I *think* would boot on bare metal instead of running
> on top of VM.  I don't know what, if any, relationship it had to the
> Locus work. (In the late '80s I worked at a university computing center
> with VMS, Suns, and IBM gear; so I'm recalling what I heard. I never
> actually saw AIX/370 running.)
>
AIX/370 and AIX/386 were done for IBM under contract by Locus Computing
Corporation (a.k.a. LCC)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_Computing_Corporation> .  And yes,
most customers that I knew ran it bare metal.

Because of TCF (Transparent Computing Facility), PS/2 based PC were
clustered with the 370s, under a single system image (i.e. up to 32
processors of any time, looked to the world like a single processor).   The
OS looked at the binary and found a properly provisioned system in the
cluster to execute it.  So you could have require option hardware that only
one node might have, and the process would be migrated to that node.  It
also meant nodes could and be added and removed dynamically.

The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent
Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added
to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI>
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From dave at horsfall.org  Sat Nov  2 06:36:39 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 07:36:39 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Morris Worm!
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911020732480.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>

The infamous Morris Worm was released in 1988; making use of known 
vulnerabilities in Sendmail/finger/RSH (and weak passwords), it took out a 
metric shitload of SUN-3s and 4BSD Vaxen (the author claimed that it was 
accidental, but the idiot hadn't tested it on an isolated network first). A 
temporary "condom" was discovered by Rich Kulawiec with "mkdir /tmp/sh".

Another fix was to move the C compiler elsewhere.

-- Dave

From jack.adams at ieee.org  Sat Nov  2 07:06:36 2019
From: jack.adams at ieee.org (John Adams)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:06:36 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Dick Haight's one page essay on "You can't fool an honest
 programmer"
Message-ID: <CANv4r+ijcXaWgKrm2j64TvenhyHfqRjggeAzapz72HanSJUqpw@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps someone can help me locate a very humorous  short
essay from Dick Haight of PWB (I believe Dick was John Mashey's
boss at the time) work in Piscataway.  I had a paper copy that Dick
gave me that has long since disappeared in many office moves over
almost 50 years.

*John "Jack" Lossin Adams*
*LinkedIn CV <http://lnkd.in/_Q_w7p>* and on *Facebook
<http://facebook.com/John.Lossin.Adams>*

*If God is your Co-Pilot, you're sitting in the wrong seat!*

Veritas per Scientiam - NJIT motto

*We live at a time when emotions and feelings **count more than **truth,
and there *

*is a vast ignorance of science. - James Lovelock*

*Technology is dominated by two types of people: those who understand what *

*they **do not manage, and those who manage what they do not *
*understand. - Archibald Putt*


*We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in
which hardly *

*anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan*


*Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, *
*and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein*
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From crossd at gmail.com  Sat Nov  2 07:12:23 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:12:23 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Morris Worm!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911020732480.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911020732480.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W79n_eGAtdZLfT8PQppv+E5Uyrc9kM3RMQZ1bSpfiPzXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 4:37 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> The infamous Morris Worm was released in 1988; making use of known
> vulnerabilities in Sendmail/finger/RSH (and weak passwords), it took out a
> metric shitload of SUN-3s and 4BSD Vaxen (the author claimed that it was
> accidental, but the idiot hadn't tested it on an isolated network first).
> A
> temporary "condom" was discovered by Rich Kulawiec with "mkdir /tmp/sh".
>
> Another fix was to move the C compiler elsewhere.
>

This comes up every year, but could I ask that you please stop referring to
Robert T. Morris as an idiot? He acted foolishly and destructively, yes,
but he was quite young at the time and he paid for his mistake. He's gone
on to do very good work in systems and have a productive career; there
really is no need to continue to castigate him in this manner for a mistake
he made 31 years ago.

        - Dan C.
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From a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com  Sat Nov  2 07:49:05 2019
From: a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com (A. P. Garcia)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 17:49:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Morris Worm!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911020732480.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911020732480.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAFCBnZsMuxchVgvyaTXXjtccJzkWeZMLAP8naA3YXE-e7A6cAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 4:37 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> The infamous Morris Worm was released in 1988; making use of known
> vulnerabilities in Sendmail/finger/RSH (and weak passwords), it took out a
> metric shitload of SUN-3s and 4BSD Vaxen (the author claimed that it was
> accidental, but the idiot hadn't tested it on an isolated network first).
> A
> temporary "condom" was discovered by Rich Kulawiec with "mkdir /tmp/sh".
>
> Another fix was to move the C compiler elsewhere.
>
> -- Dave
>

One of my comp sci professors was a grad student at Cornell when this
happened. He shared a small office with Morris and some other students. He
said that he had to explain that he had absolutely nothing to do with it on
quite a few occasions.

Morris was caught partly because he used the Unix crypt command to encrypt
his source code. The command was a computer model of the Enigma machine,
and its output could be and indeed was cracked, after retrieving the
encrypted code from a backup tape.

It's interesting that the worm was quickly detected. The reason was that it
kept infecting the same machines, and as you referred to, it contained a
password cracker, which slowed those machines to a crawl because of the
multiple instances running.

>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Nov  2 07:55:19 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 14:55:19 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] [COFF]  Happy birthday, Morris Worm!
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W79n_eGAtdZLfT8PQppv+E5Uyrc9kM3RMQZ1bSpfiPzXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911020732480.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAEoi9W79n_eGAtdZLfT8PQppv+E5Uyrc9kM3RMQZ1bSpfiPzXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Mth-WEECA6PCc_KcG_aKpfdWV+8dBsuj87MzAgbiwF3w@mail.gmail.com>

+1.  Well said Dan.

We all have made and will make mistakes in the future.  It was an error and
we all learned from it.  It’s not helpful to continue to hark back on it.

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 2:13 PM Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 4:37 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>
>> The infamous Morris Worm was released in 1988; making use of known
>> vulnerabilities in Sendmail/finger/RSH (and weak passwords), it took out
>> a
>> metric shitload of SUN-3s and 4BSD Vaxen (the author claimed that it was
>> accidental, but the idiot hadn't tested it on an isolated network first).
>> A
>> temporary "condom" was discovered by Rich Kulawiec with "mkdir /tmp/sh".
>>
>> Another fix was to move the C compiler elsewhere.
>>
>
> This comes up every year, but could I ask that you please stop referring
> to Robert T. Morris as an idiot? He acted foolishly and destructively, yes,
> but he was quite young at the time and he paid for his mistake. He's gone
> on to do very good work in systems and have a productive career; there
> really is no need to continue to castigate him in this manner for a mistake
> he made 31 years ago.
>
>         - Dan C.
>
> _______________________________________________
> COFF mailing list
> COFF at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/coff
>
-- 
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
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From cmhanson at eschatologist.net  Sat Nov  2 08:24:23 2019
From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 15:24:23 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX: A History and a Memoir by Brian W. Kernighan is
 now out
In-Reply-To: <201910232328.x9NNSmia001653@freefriends.org>
References: <1571611430.28265.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <201910232328.x9NNSmia001653@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <2BAEF50E-3F2F-49A8-B40B-C004EB2F9541@eschatologist.net>

On Oct 23, 2019, at 4:28 PM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> BWK used Create Space, which is Amazon, to self publish. So, I suspect
> that it won't be in brick-and-mortar shops.  They may can order for
> you but in that case it'd probably be more expensive than just ordering
> it yourself.

Amazon does have a small number of physical storefronts (for example, there’s one at Santana Row in San Jose, CA) and they’ll actually put print-on-demand books on the shelves there too. Shelf placement appears to be algorithmic by popularity so it wouldn’t surprise me to see Kernighan’s book the next time I pop in.

  -- Chris
  -- who always has to resist the urge to say “Alexa, play Despacito” when walking past the helper-cylinder display


From a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com  Sat Nov  2 08:25:15 2019
From: a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com (A. P. Garcia)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 18:25:15 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] [COFF] Happy birthday, Morris Worm!
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Mth-WEECA6PCc_KcG_aKpfdWV+8dBsuj87MzAgbiwF3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911020732480.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAEoi9W79n_eGAtdZLfT8PQppv+E5Uyrc9kM3RMQZ1bSpfiPzXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2Mth-WEECA6PCc_KcG_aKpfdWV+8dBsuj87MzAgbiwF3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFCBnZvVRRiFJ_9PHit29xoSiqhYmq93rswf-00oi=c5LuaiLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 5:56 PM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> +1.  Well said Dan.
>
> We all have made and will make mistakes in the future.  It was an error
> and we all learned from it.  It’s not helpful to continue to hark back on
> it.
>
> On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 2:13 PM Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 4:37 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>>
>>> The infamous Morris Worm was released in 1988; making use of known
>>> vulnerabilities in Sendmail/finger/RSH (and weak passwords), it took out
>>> a
>>> metric shitload of SUN-3s and 4BSD Vaxen (the author claimed that it was
>>> accidental, but the idiot hadn't tested it on an isolated network
>>> first). A
>>> temporary "condom" was discovered by Rich Kulawiec with "mkdir /tmp/sh".
>>>
>>> Another fix was to move the C compiler elsewhere.
>>>
>>
>> This comes up every year, but could I ask that you please stop referring
>> to Robert T. Morris as an idiot? He acted foolishly and destructively, yes,
>> but he was quite young at the time and he paid for his mistake. He's gone
>> on to do very good work in systems and have a productive career; there
>> really is no need to continue to castigate him in this manner for a mistake
>> he made 31 years ago.
>>
>>         - Dan C.
>>
>
The father of the person who wrote the worm was a Unix pioneer, Bob Morris.
He coauthored a paper on Unix password security with Ken Thompson. He was
working for the NSA when the worm was unleashed. As told in The Cuckoo's
Egg, Cliff Stoll was an early suspect, and it caused Bob Morris no small
amount of embarrassment and angst to discover that the culprit was his own
son. I'm sure that Bob was proud of his son's accomplishments -- but not
that one.
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From wlc at jctaylor.com  Sat Nov  2 16:35:02 2019
From: wlc at jctaylor.com (William Corcoran)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 06:35:02 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Morris Worm!
In-Reply-To: <CAFCBnZsMuxchVgvyaTXXjtccJzkWeZMLAP8naA3YXE-e7A6cAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911020732480.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>,
 <CAFCBnZsMuxchVgvyaTXXjtccJzkWeZMLAP8naA3YXE-e7A6cAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9F243C18-0173-417A-9097-E2662AFE7950@jctaylor.com>

Whoa!  Let’s rethink the defamatory ad hominem remarks here.  We were all kids once.  Moreover, my examination of this subject showed that some of our greatest computer scientists, at the time, went to bat for young Morris.  Moreover, calling RTM a nasty name like that is a shoe that simply doesn’t fit.  My goodness RTM is a professor at MIT.   It’s inarguable that the Morris Worm helped his career far more than it hurt it.  Plus, indeed, there was a genuine re-Morris from RTM.

Bill Corcoran

On Nov 1, 2019, at 5:49 PM, A. P. Garcia <a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com<mailto:a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com>> wrote:



On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 4:37 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org<mailto:dave at horsfall.org>> wrote:
The infamous Morris Worm was released in 1988; making use of known
vulnerabilities in Sendmail/finger/RSH (and weak passwords), it took out a
metric shitload of SUN-3s and 4BSD Vaxen (the author claimed that it was
accidental, but the idiot hadn't tested it on an isolated network first). A
temporary "condom" was discovered by Rich Kulawiec with "mkdir /tmp/sh".

Another fix was to move the C compiler elsewhere.

-- Dave

One of my comp sci professors was a grad student at Cornell when this happened. He shared a small office with Morris and some other students. He said that he had to explain that he had absolutely nothing to do with it on quite a few occasions.

Morris was caught partly because he used the Unix crypt command to encrypt his source code. The command was a computer model of the Enigma machine, and its output could be and indeed was cracked, after retrieving the encrypted code from a backup tape.

It's interesting that the worm was quickly detected. The reason was that it kept infecting the same machines, and as you referred to, it contained a password cracker, which slowed those machines to a crawl because of the multiple instances running.
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From wlc at jctaylor.com  Sat Nov  2 16:44:51 2019
From: wlc at jctaylor.com (William Corcoran)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 06:44:51 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Morris Worm!
In-Reply-To: <9F243C18-0173-417A-9097-E2662AFE7950@jctaylor.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911020732480.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>,
 <CAFCBnZsMuxchVgvyaTXXjtccJzkWeZMLAP8naA3YXE-e7A6cAw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <9F243C18-0173-417A-9097-E2662AFE7950@jctaylor.com>
Message-ID: <51A8CAF2-A105-460B-B1A0-02FE1A276B47@jctaylor.com>

My comments were not directed to A. P. Garcia.

I regret my error.

Bill Corcoran



On Nov 2, 2019, at 2:36 AM, William Corcoran <wlc at jctaylor.com<mailto:wlc at jctaylor.com>> wrote:

Whoa!  Let’s rethink the defamatory ad hominem remarks here.  We were all kids once.  Moreover, my examination of this subject showed that some of our greatest computer scientists, at the time, went to bat for young Morris.  Moreover, calling RTM a nasty name like that is a shoe that simply doesn’t fit.  My goodness RTM is a professor at MIT.   It’s inarguable that the Morris Worm helped his career far more than it hurt it.  Plus, indeed, there was a genuine re-Morris from RTM.

Bill Corcoran

On Nov 1, 2019, at 5:49 PM, A. P. Garcia <a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com<mailto:a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com>> wrote:



On Fri, Nov 1, 2019, 4:37 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org<mailto:dave at horsfall.org>> wrote:
The infamous Morris Worm was released in 1988; making use of known
vulnerabilities in Sendmail/finger/RSH (and weak passwords), it took out a
metric shitload of SUN-3s and 4BSD Vaxen (the author claimed that it was
accidental, but the idiot hadn't tested it on an isolated network first). A
temporary "condom" was discovered by Rich Kulawiec with "mkdir /tmp/sh".

Another fix was to move the C compiler elsewhere.

-- Dave

One of my comp sci professors was a grad student at Cornell when this happened. He shared a small office with Morris and some other students. He said that he had to explain that he had absolutely nothing to do with it on quite a few occasions.

Morris was caught partly because he used the Unix crypt command to encrypt his source code. The command was a computer model of the Enigma machine, and its output could be and indeed was cracked, after retrieving the encrypted code from a backup tape.

It's interesting that the worm was quickly detected. The reason was that it kept infecting the same machines, and as you referred to, it contained a password cracker, which slowed those machines to a crawl because of the multiple instances running.
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From a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com  Sat Nov  2 17:31:36 2019
From: a.phillip.garcia at gmail.com (A. P. Garcia)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 03:31:36 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Morris Worm!
In-Reply-To: <51A8CAF2-A105-460B-B1A0-02FE1A276B47@jctaylor.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911020732480.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAFCBnZsMuxchVgvyaTXXjtccJzkWeZMLAP8naA3YXE-e7A6cAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9F243C18-0173-417A-9097-E2662AFE7950@jctaylor.com>
 <51A8CAF2-A105-460B-B1A0-02FE1A276B47@jctaylor.com>
Message-ID: <CAFCBnZv7TYKtBPFwvjbXHfyDYnbA-XS0YashrWY1AujNr8uhnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019, 2:44 AM William Corcoran <wlc at jctaylor.com> wrote:

> My comments were not directed to A. P. Garcia.
>
> I regret my error.
>
> Bill Corcoran
>
>
>
> On Nov 2, 2019, at 2:36 AM, William Corcoran <wlc at jctaylor.com> wrote:
>
> Whoa!  Let’s rethink the defamatory ad hominem remarks here.  We were all
> kids once.  Moreover, my examination of this subject showed that some of
> our greatest computer scientists, at the time, went to bat for young
> Morris.  Moreover, calling RTM a nasty name like that is a shoe that simply
> doesn’t fit.  My goodness RTM is a professor at MIT.   It’s inarguable that
> the Morris Worm helped his career far more than it hurt it.  Plus, indeed,
> there was a genuine re-Morris from RTM.
>
> Bill Corcoran
>
> <snip>

No worries. It's worth mentioning on a Unix mailing list that RTM
coauthored xv6, an x86 reimplementation of the v6 kernel. It sort of
carries the torch of the Lions book by teaching future generations about
the internals of operating systems and the Unix way. And that is a
beautiful thing.

>
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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Sun Nov  3 00:12:14 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Sat, 02 Nov 2019 10:12:14 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
Message-ID: <201911021412.xA2ECEMr137264@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

Full disclosure: I served as a character witness at Robert Morris's trial.
Before the trial, the judge was quite incredulous that the prosecutor
was pursuing a felony charge and refused to let the trial go forward
without confirmation from the prosecutor's superiors in Washington.

> I'm sure that Bob was proud of his son's accomplishments -- but not
that one.

As Bob ut it, "It {being the father] is not a great career move."
Robert confessed to Bob as soon as he realized the folly of loosing
an exponential, even with a tiny growth rate per generation. I 
believe that what brought computers to their knees was the
overwhelming number of attacks, not the cost of cecryption. The
worm did assure that only one copy would be allowed to proceed
at a time.

During high school, Robert worked as a summer employee for Fred
Grampp. He got high marks for finding and correcting an exploit.

> making use of known vulnerabilities

Buffer overflows were known to cause misbehavior, but few people
at the time were conscious that the misbehavior could be controlled.
I do not know whether Berkeley agonized before distributing the
"debug" feature that allowed remote super-user access via sendmail.
But they certainly messed up by not documenting it.

Doug

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun Nov  3 06:12:47 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 14:12:47 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <201911021412.xA2ECEMr137264@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201911021412.xA2ECEMr137264@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfr1yiMbM6KixYgTXgWn5PVOQTtXWBhYODUjD_n1Lqq0Lg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 8:13 AM Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> Full disclosure: I served as a character witness at Robert Morris's trial.
> Before the trial, the judge was quite incredulous that the prosecutor
> was pursuing a felony charge and refused to let the trial go forward
> without confirmation from the prosecutor's superiors in Washington.
>
> > I'm sure that Bob was proud of his son's accomplishments -- but not
> that one.
>
> As Bob ut it, "It {being the father] is not a great career move."
> Robert confessed to Bob as soon as he realized the folly of loosing
> an exponential, even with a tiny growth rate per generation. I
> believe that what brought computers to their knees was the
> overwhelming number of attacks, not the cost of cecryption. The
> worm did assure that only one copy would be allowed to proceed
> at a time.
>
> During high school, Robert worked as a summer employee for Fred
> Grampp. He got high marks for finding and correcting an exploit.
>
> > making use of known vulnerabilities
>
> Buffer overflows were known to cause misbehavior, but few people
> at the time were conscious that the misbehavior could be controlled.
> I do not know whether Berkeley agonized before distributing the
> "debug" feature that allowed remote super-user access via sendmail.
> But they certainly messed up by not documenting it.
>

Yes. The reason people freaked out when the worm came out was because it
was the first one to hit the scene. The exploints that allowed it to
propagate were known to a few, but the notion of a self propagating thing
was quite novel (even if it had been theoretically discussed in many places
prior to the worm, and even though others had proven it via slower moving
vectors of BBS). It caught a lot of people off guard with their pants down,
and it took a bunch of time to rectify (because it would reinfect if you
weren't careful). That's why people wanted to prosecute on felony charges.
But there was no intent to cause harm, and there was, at the time, no
applicable law that could be used to charge as a felony anyway (apart from
vague denial of property statues, which were at best a stretch).

In hindsight people like to point at it and what a terrible thing it was,
but Robert just got there first. Any number of people could have written it
given the extremely lax security profiles of the time (things are better
today, but we are not immune to buffer overflows or privilege escalation
attacks).

Warner
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From wkt at tuhs.org  Sun Nov  3 07:11:20 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 07:11:20 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Fwd: Re: UNIX-7 boots on sn 129
In-Reply-To: <C9C06602-3D44-44BD-AAB4-543F453F858F@livingcomputers.org>
References: <C9C06602-3D44-44BD-AAB4-543F453F858F@livingcomputers.org>
Message-ID: <2C781FE8-01E1-4A92-911B-465A8E5611A2@tuhs.org>




-------- Original Message --------
From: Stephen Jones <StephenJo at livingcomputers.org>
Sent: 3 November 2019 3:05:31 am AEST
Subject: Re: UNIX-7 boots on sn 129

A couple of videos of the action this week:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pvaPaWyiuLA&t=18s

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L5MKwp2uj2k&t=119s

The JK09 turns out not to be an emulator but the newest storage device and driver for the pdp-7 and unix v0!


-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Sun Nov  3 08:13:05 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 18:13:05 -0400
Subject: [TUHS] Dick Haight's one page essay on "You can't fool an
 honest programmer"
In-Reply-To: <CANv4r+ijcXaWgKrm2j64TvenhyHfqRjggeAzapz72HanSJUqpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANv4r+ijcXaWgKrm2j64TvenhyHfqRjggeAzapz72HanSJUqpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp8d-3Yzp07a8Tv8wD2yVx-1kXZ-x7fDzTNLfhhpX=86mg@mail.gmail.com>

I contacted Dick. No luck.

*Sorry. Don’t have it myself. Lost a lot of stuff when I left BTL in 1989.
I’d like a dump of my home directory from that time.*




On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 5:08 PM John Adams <jack.adams at ieee.org> wrote:

> Perhaps someone can help me locate a very humorous  short
> essay from Dick Haight of PWB (I believe Dick was John Mashey's
> boss at the time) work in Piscataway.  I had a paper copy that Dick
> gave me that has long since disappeared in many office moves over
> almost 50 years.
>
> *John "Jack" Lossin Adams*
> *LinkedIn CV <http://lnkd.in/_Q_w7p>* and on *Facebook
> <http://facebook.com/John.Lossin.Adams>*
>
> *If God is your Co-Pilot, you're sitting in the wrong seat!*
>
> Veritas per Scientiam - NJIT motto
>
> *We live at a time when emotions and feelings **count more than **truth,
> and there *
>
> *is a vast ignorance of science. - James Lovelock*
>
> *Technology is dominated by two types of people: those who understand
> what *
>
> *they **do not manage, and those who manage what they do not *
> *understand. - Archibald Putt*
>
>
> *We live in a society exquisitely dependent on science and technology, in
> which hardly *
>
> *anyone knows anything about science and technology. - Carl Sagan*
>
>
> *Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, *
> *and I'm not sure about the former. - Albert Einstein*
>
>
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From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Sun Nov  3 11:02:44 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 18:02:44 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtCGq+waap+fM5OP0Ff=ScmedvAZ3wRzyU-tjyBiMicpEA@mail.gmail.com>

Tom,

In case you ever pass through Pittsburgh, Dave has 370s of various flavor
and some pdp-11s.  I’d be pretty entertained trying to get this running in
some capacity on real iron in the future when I visit Dave.

I may put out another form to see if people would be interested in doing an
event there.

In the meantime thanks for recovering and posting this.

Regards,
Kevin

On Wed, Oct 30, 2019 at 8:57 PM Tom Lyon <pugs at ieee.org> wrote:

> Hi, folks. Tom Lyon here - this UNIX 370 stuff was recovered by Stephen at
> LCM+L from DECtapes that I've had sitting around for 40+ years.
> You can read all about the Princeton/Amdahl project here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart1/
>
> If anyone wants to get serious with the code, you'll need Hercules with a
> VM/370 image as well as a PDP-11 emulator running V6. There's not a lot
> beyond the kernel, I got the shell working enough to prove that fork
> worked, and then ran out of steam because of the awful communication
> problems between the PDP and the IBM.  [ But that was my start as a
> networking guy ]. I personally haven't had time to do anything with the
> recovered bits.
>
> I've been lurking on TUHS for a while - a special Hi to Ken Thompson and
> Steve Johnson. I owe a lot to each of them. Read about my summer at Bell
> with the Interdata 8/32 here:
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/16/belllabspart1/
>
> On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 9:04 PM Warren Toomey <wkt at tuhs.org> wrote:
>
>> All, the second Unix artifact that I've been waiting to announce has
>> arrived. This time the LCM+L is announcing it. It's not the booting PDP-7.
>>
>> So, cast your eyes on https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/IBM/370/
>>
>> Cheers, Warren
>>
>> P.S Thanks to Stephen Jones for this as well.
>>
>
>
> --
> - Tom
>
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From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun Nov  3 13:52:20 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 20:52:20 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bourne
Message-ID: <20191103035220.GG26910@mcvoy.com>

Hey I'm at the hackers conference (having a blast, I thought I was too
retired and burned out and I'm apparently still somewhat OK with that
crowd, much to my surprise.  Super fun bunch of nerds).

Steve Bourne is here and I mentioned this list and he didn't know
about it.  His interest perked up a bit when I said Doug and Rob and
Ken are here, I think his comment was something like "if Ken is there
it must be something, Ken likes to do stuff more than talk about stuff".
Probably have that not quite right but it was something like that.

I'd love to have all of the Bell Labs alumni here, hearing history from
them is awesome.  

So Warren, it's your list, Steve is srb at acm.org, you want to do an invite?
I can do it if you prefer that but I thought I'd ask first.

Cheers,

--lm

From arnold at skeeve.com  Sun Nov  3 17:05:55 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 01:05:55 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2Pz5d4n3ZDhP85d0dX97jLUi=kDKDKdNMZdw2D32Mk72w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
 <CAC20D2Pz5d4n3ZDhP85d0dX97jLUi=kDKDKdNMZdw2D32Mk72w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201911030705.xA375twJ013107@freefriends.org>

Thaks Clem.

Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 7:11 AM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> > Tom,
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > AIX/370 existed and I *think* would boot on bare metal instead of running
> > on top of VM.  I don't know what, if any, relationship it had to the
> > Locus work. (In the late '80s I worked at a university computing center
> > with VMS, Suns, and IBM gear; so I'm recalling what I heard. I never
> > actually saw AIX/370 running.)
> >
> AIX/370 and AIX/386 were done for IBM under contract by Locus Computing
> Corporation (a.k.a. LCC)
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_Computing_Corporation> .  And yes,
> most customers that I knew ran it bare metal.

Glad to know that I remembered correctly.

In the early 90s I worked teaching multi-vendor Unix courses. One
frustration was that AIX on the 370 and AIX on the PS/2 were essentially
the same as each other but very different from AIX on the RS/6000
machines.  A co-worker and I wrote a short essay about if IBM made
cooking equipment:

	The IBM Industrial Furnace and the IBM camping stove
	would be almost, but not quite entirely, totally different
	from the IBM Home Oven.

Or something like that. I can't find the original.

> Because of TCF (Transparent Computing Facility), PS/2 based PC were
> clustered with the 370s, under a single system image (i.e. up to 32
> processors of any time, looked to the world like a single processor).   The
> OS looked at the binary and found a properly provisioned system in the
> cluster to execute it.  So you could have require option hardware that only
> one node might have, and the process would be migrated to that node.  It
> also meant nodes could and be added and removed dynamically.

Very cool.

> The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent
> Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added
> to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI>

Am I wrong, or does nobody actually use this today? The opessi.org
home page link from Wikipedia just seems to hang. And the files on the
SourceForge page are 5 years old.

Thanks,

Arnold

From paul.winalski at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 03:12:20 2019
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 12:12:20 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfr1yiMbM6KixYgTXgWn5PVOQTtXWBhYODUjD_n1Lqq0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201911021412.xA2ECEMr137264@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <CANCZdfr1yiMbM6KixYgTXgWn5PVOQTtXWBhYODUjD_n1Lqq0Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VT7rsAJCw8AXE2aZuT1F_NQce3Gqo7XKmdyJzb+vEATwg@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/2/19, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
> the notion of a self propagating thing
> was quite novel (even if it had been theoretically discussed in many places
> prior to the worm, and even though others had proven it via slower moving
> vectors of BBS).

Novel to the Internet community, perhaps, but an idea that dates back
to the 1960s in IBM mainframe circles.  Self-submitting OS/360 JCL
jobs, which eventually caused a crash by filling the queue files with
jobs, were well-known in the raised-floor world.

> In hindsight people like to point at it and what a terrible thing it was,
> but Robert just got there first.

Again, first on the Internet.  Back in 1980 I accidentally took down
DEC's internal engineering network (about 100 nodes, mostly VAX/VMS,
at the time) with a worm.  The network used DECnet Phase 2, which
didn't have built-in packet routing.  If you wanted to talk to a
machine that wasn't physically connected to yours, you had to
explicitly specify the packet route.  Network topology maps were thus
very valuable.

All of the VAXen on the network were configured with an unprivileged
default DECnet account that was used for any connection that didn't
explicitly specify a username/password.  One could copy arbitrary DCL
command procedures (VMS's equivalent of shell scripts) to a machine
and execute them there.  I wrote a script to collect the raw
information for making a network topology map.  The script did this:

[1] Display the local DECnet connections and send this information
back over the network link.
[2] For each adjacent network node:
[2a]  Copy the script to that node.
[2b]  Execute the remote copy, sending its info back over the network link.

The problem, of course, is I had forgotten that network adjacency is
commutative.  I ran the script on node A, which told me that A is
connected to B and C.  It then told me that B was connected to A, D,
and E.  Then that A is connected to B and C....  I realized what had
happened immediately, but it was already too late.  The network had to
be taken down, the nodes cleared of the scripts, and then reconnected.
We learned the hard way that although the non-privileged default
DECnet accounts couldn't damage the system, they could be exploited
for what we now call DDoS attacks.

Robert Morris worked as an intern one summer in DEC's compiler group.
The Fortran project leader told Morris about my 1980 worm incident.
So he certainly had heard of the concept before he fashioned his
UNIX/Internet-based worm a few years later.

-Paul W.

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Mon Nov  4 07:05:01 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 14:05:01 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>

This stuff is extremely poorly preserved.  No time like the present to
fix that.  I was reading Tom's blog
https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart3/ and have been aware of
Amdahl UTS a couple of the other ports for a while.

I've got an HP 88780 quad density 9-track and access to a SCSI IBM
3490.  Can fit them in air cargo and bring a laptop with a SCSI card.
Tell me where to go.

Regards,
Kevin

From clemc at ccc.com  Mon Nov  4 07:16:04 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 13:16:04 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <201911030705.xA375twJ013107@freefriends.org>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
 <CAC20D2Pz5d4n3ZDhP85d0dX97jLUi=kDKDKdNMZdw2D32Mk72w@mail.gmail.com>
 <201911030705.xA375twJ013107@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2P5pCL1yxUPxbvHBTNGDvy5jQa5AAxQwVeqe25NfyESVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 12:06 AM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

>
> > The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent
> > Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added
> > to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI>
>
> Am I wrong, or does nobody actually use this today? The opessi.org
> home page link from Wikipedia just seems to hang. And the files on the
> SourceForge page are 5 years old.
>
I suspect not - it was done to 2.6 kernel and none of the changes were
taken by Linus for 3x   Folks got discouraged and gave up
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From drb at msu.edu  Mon Nov  4 09:29:28 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 18:29:28 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 03 Nov 2019 14:05:01 -0700.)
 <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <20191103232928.A36F92950D6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > I've got an HP 88780 quad density 9-track and access to a SCSI IBM
 > 3490.  Can fit them in air cargo and bring a laptop with a SCSI card.
 > Tell me where to go.

Don't forget to air cargo your tape drying mechanism too.

De

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Mon Nov  4 10:06:06 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 17:06:06 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <20191103232928.A36F92950D6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191103232928.A36F92950D6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtAO=6_iy7VPff=bbR9YL0jHLASvWVrEUiHq8NXzF9TLiA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 4:39 PM Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> wrote:

>  > I've got an HP 88780 quad density 9-track and access to a SCSI IBM
>  > 3490.  Can fit them in air cargo and bring a laptop with a SCSI card.
>  > Tell me where to go.
>
> Don't forget to air cargo your tape drying mechanism too.
>
> De
>
There’s a chance some media needs a small amount of heat over time applied
“tape baking” but a facility to do that is readily available almost
anywhere.  I haven’t had any issues with properly stored 9 track from the
late ‘80s and early ‘90s.

http://www.heeltoe.com/retro/tapes/ has links to the authoritative sources
but gives a good enough overview for water cooler talk.
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From drb at msu.edu  Mon Nov  4 11:29:53 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Sun, 03 Nov 2019 20:29:53 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 03 Nov 2019 17:06:06 -0700.)
 <CAK7dMtAO=6_iy7VPff=bbR9YL0jHLASvWVrEUiHq8NXzF9TLiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtAO=6_iy7VPff=bbR9YL0jHLASvWVrEUiHq8NXzF9TLiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191103232928.A36F92950D6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20191104012953.D155029511A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > There’s a chance some media needs a small amount of heat over time
 > applied “tape baking” but a facility to do that is readily available
 > almost anywhere.

Problem is that you can't necessarily tell _which_ by inspection.  And
if you just try reading it, the one that needed help will take damage in
the drive.

De

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Mon Nov  4 11:58:52 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 18:58:52 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <20191104012953.D155029511A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191103232928.A36F92950D6@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
 <CAK7dMtAO=6_iy7VPff=bbR9YL0jHLASvWVrEUiHq8NXzF9TLiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191104012953.D155029511A@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBvX7gPYpFfCBaRm+nE+9O__vhwV-NmuPKhg87GL43c+w@mail.gmail.com>

We live in an imperfect world.  All we can do is try; it will
certainly cease with inaction.  It's painfully ironic we have
effectively limitless perfect preservation systems [1] now, but are
losing worthwhile information at an astonishing rate.  I suspect most
estate sales, and even professional archivists[2] trash manuals, tape
and things like microfiche without really thinking much about it
because they don't really understand how to bring it to permanent
storage systems or that nobody else has done so either.

[1] Stack your favorite local filesystem, a public cloud, and/or archive.org
[2] I accidentally came across this pulling up the tape baking link
showing almost this
https://ricehistorycorner.com/2015/05/13/obsolete-technology-reel-to-reel/

Regards,
Kevin

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 6:30 PM Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> wrote:
>
>  > There’s a chance some media needs a small amount of heat over time
>  > applied “tape baking” but a facility to do that is readily available
>  > almost anywhere.
>
> Problem is that you can't necessarily tell _which_ by inspection.  And
> if you just try reading it, the one that needed help will take damage in
> the drive.
>
> De

From gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  4 13:39:25 2019
From: gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com (Gregg Levine)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 22:39:25 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello!
Holy Socks! Kevin I've been trying to track down a copy of AIX/370 for
that emulator, especially since I do run VM/370 Release 6 on it. One
of the people in the community indicated that it was a product which
had only one customer, someplace in Norway he said.

If you do get a good copy then I'm interested.

The same group has been trying to track down UTS as well.

Adam any comments?
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 4:06 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:
>
> This stuff is extremely poorly preserved.  No time like the present to
> fix that.  I was reading Tom's blog
> https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart3/ and have been aware of
> Amdahl UTS a couple of the other ports for a while.
>
> I've got an HP 88780 quad density 9-track and access to a SCSI IBM
> 3490.  Can fit them in air cargo and bring a laptop with a SCSI card.
> Tell me where to go.
>
> Regards,
> Kevin

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Mon Nov  4 14:49:14 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 2019 21:49:14 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBR9od+JfX+_ZeuMm0xw7h_1RRqkRHo3v_Kbt=z7hmYiw@mail.gmail.com>

I have anecdotal evidence UTS and at least one of the AIX VM ports were
used within the Bell telephone companies.  I can pour through my telecom
stuff and try to find it.

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 8:40 PM Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello!
> Holy Socks! Kevin I've been trying to track down a copy of AIX/370 for
> that emulator, especially since I do run VM/370 Release 6 on it. One
> of the people in the community indicated that it was a product which
> had only one customer, someplace in Norway he said.
>
> If you do get a good copy then I'm interested.
>
> The same group has been trying to track down UTS as well.
>
> Adam any comments?
> -----
> Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
>
> On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 4:06 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > This stuff is extremely poorly preserved.  No time like the present to
> > fix that.  I was reading Tom's blog
> > https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart3/ and have been aware of
> > Amdahl UTS a couple of the other ports for a while.
> >
> > I've got an HP 88780 quad density 9-track and access to a SCSI IBM
> > 3490.  Can fit them in air cargo and bring a laptop with a SCSI card.
> > Tell me where to go.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin
>
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From arnold at skeeve.com  Tue Nov  5 00:43:12 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Mon, 04 Nov 2019 07:43:12 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2P5pCL1yxUPxbvHBTNGDvy5jQa5AAxQwVeqe25NfyESVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
 <CAC20D2Pz5d4n3ZDhP85d0dX97jLUi=kDKDKdNMZdw2D32Mk72w@mail.gmail.com>
 <201911030705.xA375twJ013107@freefriends.org>
 <CAC20D2P5pCL1yxUPxbvHBTNGDvy5jQa5AAxQwVeqe25NfyESVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201911041443.xA4EhCqn023852@freefriends.org>

Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 12:06 AM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > > The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called Transparent
> > > Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and added
> > > to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI>
> >
> > Am I wrong, or does nobody actually use this today? The opessi.org
> > home page link from Wikipedia just seems to hang. And the files on the
> > SourceForge page are 5 years old.
> >
> I suspect not - it was done to 2.6 kernel and none of the changes were
> taken by Linus for 3x   Folks got discouraged and gave up

Ah, OK. Thanks for the info. On the one hand, two bad. On the other hand,
it looks like a real patchwork quilt of technologies...

Thanks,

Arnold

From athornton at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 01:32:51 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 09:32:51 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP2nic2TmauLY1rDOfCO1V1MeApO3GQ0ZCumFypN6M1+nW=2rA@mail.gmail.com>

I would love to give it a shot.  I was thinking about trying to get
Hercules going on a laptop this weekend while I was in Houston but I didn’t
get around to it so I will probably set up a Pi when I get back.  The
v6-1/2 port seems neat.  When and if I have something running I will add
the systems to mvsevm.fsf.net.

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 9:40 PM Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello!
> Holy Socks! Kevin I've been trying to track down a copy of AIX/370 for
> that emulator, especially since I do run VM/370 Release 6 on it. One
> of the people in the community indicated that it was a product which
> had only one customer, someplace in Norway he said.
>
> If you do get a good copy then I'm interested.
>
> The same group has been trying to track down UTS as well.
>
> Adam any comments?
> -----
> Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
>
> On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 4:06 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > This stuff is extremely poorly preserved.  No time like the present to
> > fix that.  I was reading Tom's blog
> > https://akapugs.blog/2018/05/12/370unixpart3/ and have been aware of
> > Amdahl UTS a couple of the other ports for a while.
> >
> > I've got an HP 88780 quad density 9-track and access to a SCSI IBM
> > 3490.  Can fit them in air cargo and bring a laptop with a SCSI card.
> > Tell me where to go.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Kevin
>
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From paul at mcjones.org  Tue Nov  5 04:10:26 2019
From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:10:26 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>

Another possible source of inspiration — including the name “worm” — were the publications by John Shoch and Jon Hupp on programs they wrote at Xerox PARC around 1979-1980 and published in 1980 and 1982:

John F. Shoch and Jon Hupp:
 The “Worm" Programs — Early Experience with a Distributed Computation.
Xerox SSL-80-3 and IEN 159. May 1980, revised September 1980
http://www.postel.org/ien/pdf/ien159.pdf

John F. Shoch and Jon Hupp:
 The “Worm" Programs — Early Experience with a Distributed Computation.
CACM V25 N3 (March 1982)
http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~margo/cs261/background/shoch.pdf

> On Nov 3, 2019, Paul Winalski <paul.winalski at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 11/2/19, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com <mailto:imp at bsdimp.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> the notion of a self propagating thing
>> was quite novel (even if it had been theoretically discussed in many places
>> prior to the worm, and even though others had proven it via slower moving
>> vectors of BBS).
> 
> Novel to the Internet community, perhaps, but an idea that dates back
> to the 1960s in IBM mainframe circles.  Self-submitting OS/360 JCL
> jobs, which eventually caused a crash by filling the queue files with
> jobs, were well-known in the raised-floor world.
> 
>> In hindsight people like to point at it and what a terrible thing it was,
>> but Robert just got there first.
> 
> Again, first on the Internet.  Back in 1980 I accidentally took down
> DEC's internal engineering network (about 100 nodes, mostly VAX/VMS,
> at the time) with a worm.  ...
> 
> Robert Morris worked as an intern one summer in DEC's compiler group.
> The Fortran project leader told Morris about my 1980 worm incident.
> So he certainly had heard of the concept before he fashioned his
> UNIX/Internet-based worm a few years later.
> 
> -Paul W.

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From bakul at bitblocks.com  Tue Nov  5 04:57:24 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 10:57:24 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
Message-ID: <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>

I am surprised no one mentioned The Shockwave Rider by John Brunner, published in 1975. Excerpt:

Then the answer dawned on him, and he almost laughed. Fluckner had resorted to one of the oldest tricks in the store and turned loose in the continental net a selfperpetuating tapeworm, probably headed by a denunciation group "borrowed" from a major corporation, which would shunt itself from one nexus to another every time his credit-code was punched into a keyboard. It could take days to kill a worm like that, and sometimes weeks.

I read it in late 70s/early 80s and don't remember much of it but this bit had burrowed its way in my subconscious. I have been meaning to re-read it along with Stand on Zanzibar but they would be too depressing in the present era!

> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Paul McJones <paul at mcjones.org> wrote:
> 
> Another possible source of inspiration — including the name “worm” — were the publications by John Shoch and Jon Hupp on programs they wrote at Xerox PARC around 1979-1980 and published in 1980 and 1982:
> 
> John F. Shoch and Jon Hupp:
>  The “Worm" Programs — Early Experience with a Distributed Computation.
> Xerox SSL-80-3 and IEN 159. May 1980, revised September 1980
> http://www.postel.org/ien/pdf/ien159.pdf <http://www.postel.org/ien/pdf/ien159.pdf>
> 
> John F. Shoch and Jon Hupp:
>  The “Worm" Programs — Early Experience with a Distributed Computation.
> CACM V25 N3 (March 1982)
> http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~margo/cs261/background/shoch.pdf <http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~margo/cs261/background/shoch.pdf>
> 
>> On Nov 3, 2019, Paul Winalski <paul.winalski at gmail.com <mailto:paul.winalski at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> On 11/2/19, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com <mailto:imp at bsdimp.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> the notion of a self propagating thing
>>> was quite novel (even if it had been theoretically discussed in many places
>>> prior to the worm, and even though others had proven it via slower moving
>>> vectors of BBS).
>> 
>> Novel to the Internet community, perhaps, but an idea that dates back
>> to the 1960s in IBM mainframe circles.  Self-submitting OS/360 JCL
>> jobs, which eventually caused a crash by filling the queue files with
>> jobs, were well-known in the raised-floor world.
>> 
>>> In hindsight people like to point at it and what a terrible thing it was,
>>> but Robert just got there first.
>> 
>> Again, first on the Internet.  Back in 1980 I accidentally took down
>> DEC's internal engineering network (about 100 nodes, mostly VAX/VMS,
>> at the time) with a worm.  ...
>> 
>> Robert Morris worked as an intern one summer in DEC's compiler group.
>> The Fortran project leader told Morris about my 1980 worm incident.
>> So he certainly had heard of the concept before he fashioned his
>> UNIX/Internet-based worm a few years later.
>> 
>> -Paul W.
> 

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From rich.salz at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 05:24:23 2019
From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Richard Salz)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:24:23 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
 <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <CAFH29tr8ckc+azKr6tCJ9C_0uN7UB_DTE-Bo9An1LjaJ67Mpww@mail.gmail.com>

The John F. Shoch and Jon Hupp paper extensively credits Brunner, and uses
quotes from the book as section intro's.

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 1:58 PM Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:

> I am surprised no one mentioned *The Shockwave Rider *by John Brunner,
> published in 1975. Excerpt:
>
>
>
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From spedraja at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 05:25:49 2019
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 20:25:49 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
 <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF-xXGbeW3PDixJicMQJFcU1ToTidbHEoc1Hz=L2LpJFtA@mail.gmail.com>

El lun., 4 nov. 2019 19:58, Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> escribió:

> I am surprised no one mentioned *The Shockwave Rider *by John Brunner,
> published in 1975.
>

What a *great* novel, as the previous of Brunner in the 60s. "Stand on
Zanzibar" and Salmanesser are guilty of my computing career. Visionary in
many ways.  You've made my day :-)

Excerpt:
>
> Then the answer dawned on him, and he almost laughed. Fluckner had
> resorted to one of the oldest tricks in the store and turned loose in the
> continental net a selfperpetuating tapeworm, probably headed by a
> denunciation group "borrowed" from a major corporation, which would shunt
> itself from one nexus to another every time his credit-code was punched
> into a keyboard. It could take days to kill a worm like that, and sometimes
> weeks.
>
>
> I read it in late 70s/early 80s and don't remember much of it but this bit
> had burrowed its way in my subconscious. I have been meaning to re-read it
> along with Stand on Zanzibar but they would be too depressing in the
> present era!
>
> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Paul McJones <paul at mcjones.org> wrote:
>
> Another possible source of inspiration — including the name “worm” — were
> the publications by John Shoch and Jon Hupp on programs they wrote at Xerox
> PARC around 1979-1980 and published in 1980 and 1982:
>
> John F. Shoch and Jon Hupp:
>  The “Worm" Programs — Early Experience with a Distributed Computation.
> Xerox SSL-80-3 and IEN 159. May 1980, revised September 1980
> http://www.postel.org/ien/pdf/ien159.pdf
>
> John F. Shoch and Jon Hupp:
>  The “Worm" Programs — Early Experience with a Distributed Computation.
> CACM V25 N3 (March 1982)
> http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~margo/cs261/background/shoch.pdf
>
> On Nov 3, 2019, Paul Winalski <paul.winalski at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 11/2/19, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
> the notion of a self propagating thing
> was quite novel (even if it had been theoretically discussed in many places
> prior to the worm, and even though others had proven it via slower moving
> vectors of BBS).
>
>
> Novel to the Internet community, perhaps, but an idea that dates back
> to the 1960s in IBM mainframe circles.  Self-submitting OS/360 JCL
> jobs, which eventually caused a crash by filling the queue files with
> jobs, were well-known in the raised-floor world.
>
> In hindsight people like to point at it and what a terrible thing it was,
> but Robert just got there first.
>
>
> Again, first on the Internet.  Back in 1980 I accidentally took down
> DEC's internal engineering network (about 100 nodes, mostly VAX/VMS,
> at the time) with a worm.  ...
>
> Robert Morris worked as an intern one summer in DEC's compiler group.
> The Fortran project leader told Morris about my 1980 worm incident.
> So he certainly had heard of the concept before he fashioned his
> UNIX/Internet-based worm a few years later.
>
> -Paul W.
>
>
>
>
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From crossd at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 06:27:08 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 15:27:08 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
 <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5_w93Ymba1Mmz10qQc7vdZuXTRu7tNZcYc5Z5gAFd2Lw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 1:58 PM Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:

> I am surprised no one mentioned *The Shockwave Rider *by John Brunner,
> published in 1975. Excerpt:
>
> Then the answer dawned on him, and he almost laughed. Fluckner had
> resorted to one of the oldest tricks in the store and turned loose in the
> continental net a selfperpetuating tapeworm, probably headed by a
> denunciation group "borrowed" from a major corporation, which would shunt
> itself from one nexus to another every time his credit-code was punched
> into a keyboard. It could take days to kill a worm like that, and sometimes
> weeks.
>
>
In the 1983 movie "Wargames", at the very end as the staff at NORAD
desperately try and disable the rogue artificial intelligence hell-bent on
starting World War III, at one point they make a suggestion to send a
"tapeworm" into the system", but it's judged too risky. They ultimately
defeat the computer by getting it to play tic-tac-toe against itself and
learn that nuclear war is unwinnable.

        - Dan C.


I read it in late 70s/early 80s and don't remember much of it but this bit
> had burrowed its way in my subconscious. I have been meaning to re-read it
> along with Stand on Zanzibar but they would be too depressing in the
> present era!
>
> On Nov 4, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Paul McJones <paul at mcjones.org> wrote:
>
> Another possible source of inspiration — including the name “worm” — were
> the publications by John Shoch and Jon Hupp on programs they wrote at Xerox
> PARC around 1979-1980 and published in 1980 and 1982:
>
> John F. Shoch and Jon Hupp:
>  The “Worm" Programs — Early Experience with a Distributed Computation.
> Xerox SSL-80-3 and IEN 159. May 1980, revised September 1980
> http://www.postel.org/ien/pdf/ien159.pdf
>
> John F. Shoch and Jon Hupp:
>  The “Worm" Programs — Early Experience with a Distributed Computation.
> CACM V25 N3 (March 1982)
> http://www.eecs.harvard.edu/~margo/cs261/background/shoch.pdf
>
> On Nov 3, 2019, Paul Winalski <paul.winalski at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On 11/2/19, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
> the notion of a self propagating thing
> was quite novel (even if it had been theoretically discussed in many places
> prior to the worm, and even though others had proven it via slower moving
> vectors of BBS).
>
>
> Novel to the Internet community, perhaps, but an idea that dates back
> to the 1960s in IBM mainframe circles.  Self-submitting OS/360 JCL
> jobs, which eventually caused a crash by filling the queue files with
> jobs, were well-known in the raised-floor world.
>
> In hindsight people like to point at it and what a terrible thing it was,
> but Robert just got there first.
>
>
> Again, first on the Internet.  Back in 1980 I accidentally took down
> DEC's internal engineering network (about 100 nodes, mostly VAX/VMS,
> at the time) with a worm.  ...
>
> Robert Morris worked as an intern one summer in DEC's compiler group.
> The Fortran project leader told Morris about my 1980 worm incident.
> So he certainly had heard of the concept before he fashioned his
> UNIX/Internet-based worm a few years later.
>
> -Paul W.
>
>
>
>
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From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Nov  5 07:08:03 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 08:08:03 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Unix half-billion years old 1985
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911050805570.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>

UNIX was half a billion (500000000) seconds old on Tue Nov 5 00:53:20 1985 
GMT (measuring since the time(2) epoch).

 	-- Andy Tannenbaum

-- Dave

From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Nov  5 07:10:59 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 08:10:59 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Unix half-billion years old 1985
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911050805570.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911050805570.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911050809230.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019, Dave Horsfall wrote:

> UNIX was half a billion (500000000) seconds old on Tue Nov 5 00:53:20 
> 1985 GMT (measuring since the time(2) epoch).

Aarrgghh!  The subject should read "seconds", of course (too much blood in 
my coffee stream).

-- Dave

From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Tue Nov  5 07:59:22 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:59:22 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Unix half-billion years old 1985
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911050809230.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911050805570.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911050809230.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp_WX_aXRWnHcat8ZYbdvf8aeudGoU_SA2+Nj0Nc7v9sKA@mail.gmail.com>

I wrote a near-trivial "timestamp" command to make it easier to do time
arithmetic (handy for scheduling a doctor's appointment a 90-day medicine
supply from now).

TZ=udt timestamp
119 11 04 21 50 06 18204 1572904206 Mon Nov  4 21:50:06 2019
TZ=udt timestamp 0
70 01 01 00 00 00 0 0 Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
TZ=udt timestamp 500000000
85 11 05 00 53 20 5787 500000000 Tue Nov  5 00:53:20 1985
TZ=udt timestamp 1000000000
101 09 09 01 46 40 11574 1000000000 Sun Sep  9 01:46:40 2001
TZ=udt timestamp 1500000000
117 07 14 02 40 00 17361 1500000000 Fri Jul 14 02:40:00 2017
TZ=udt timestamp 2000000000
133 05 18 03 33 20 23148 2000000000 Wed May 18 03:33:20 2033
TZ=udt timestamp 2500000000
149 03 22 04 26 40 28935 2500000000 Mon Mar 22 04:26:40 2049

Not likely I'll live to see 2500000000. I surely won't live to see a
half-billion years.

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 4:11 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Nov 2019, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>
> > UNIX was half a billion (500000000) seconds old on Tue Nov 5 00:53:20
> > 1985 GMT (measuring since the time(2) epoch).
>
> Aarrgghh!  The subject should read "seconds", of course (too much blood in
> my coffee stream).
>
> -- Dave
>
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From michael at kjorling.se  Tue Nov  5 08:10:13 2019
From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 22:10:13 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W5_w93Ymba1Mmz10qQc7vdZuXTRu7tNZcYc5Z5gAFd2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
 <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
 <CAEoi9W5_w93Ymba1Mmz10qQc7vdZuXTRu7tNZcYc5Z5gAFd2Lw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <tndqvddwvm99bwgcb3mwd4pv@localhost>

On 4 Nov 2019 15:27 -0500, from crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross):
> On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 1:58 PM Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
>> I am surprised no one mentioned *The Shockwave Rider *by John Brunner,
>> published in 1975. Excerpt:
> 
> In the 1983 movie "Wargames", at the very end as the staff at NORAD
> desperately try and disable the rogue artificial intelligence hell-bent on
> starting World War III, at one point they make a suggestion to send a
> "tapeworm" into the system", but it's judged too risky.

In the 1984 movie _2010_, it seems using a tapeworm was more of a
standard, if unusual, procedure for solving a very different problem.

Copying from <https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/2010:_The_Year_We_Make_Contact#Dialogue>

> Dr. Chandra: I've erased all of HAL's memory from the moment the
> trouble started.
> 
> Dr. Vasili Orlov: The 9000 series uses holographic memories, so
> chronological erasures would not work.
> 
> Dr. Chandra: I made a tapeworm.
> 
> Dr. Walter Curnow: You made a what?
> 
> Dr. Chandra: It's a program that's fed into a system that will hunt
> down and destroy any desired memories.
> 
> Dr. Floyd: Wait... do you know why HAL did what he did?
> 
> Dr. Chandra: Yes. It wasn't his fault.

I also suggest to migrate this part of the discussion to COFF as it
has very little to do with UNIX history per se.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)


From ality at pbrane.org  Tue Nov  5 10:25:52 2019
From: ality at pbrane.org (Anthony Martin)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 16:25:52 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
 <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <20191105002528.GA5164@alice>

Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> once said:
> I have been meaning to re-read [...] Stand on Zanzibar
> but [it] would be too depressing in the present era!

I read it shortly before my first vicennial. Even though
I'm closer now to my second, I still think about it from
time to time.

"Christ, what an imagination I've got."

Cheers,
  Anthony

From ality at pbrane.org  Tue Nov  5 11:04:01 2019
From: ality at pbrane.org (Anthony Martin)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 17:04:01 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Unix half-billion years old 1985
In-Reply-To: <CAC0cEp_WX_aXRWnHcat8ZYbdvf8aeudGoU_SA2+Nj0Nc7v9sKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911050805570.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911050809230.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAC0cEp_WX_aXRWnHcat8ZYbdvf8aeudGoU_SA2+Nj0Nc7v9sKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191105010401.GB5164@alice>

"John P. Linderman" <jpl.jpl at gmail.com> once said:
> Not likely I'll live to see 2500000000. I surely won't live
> to see a half-billion years.

I'm patiently waiting for another Gilded Age:

  % date -u `{hoc -e 'int(PHI * 1e9)'}
  Sat Apr 10 05:53:08 GMT 2021

Though I wish I was around for the Belle [Labs] Époque.

Cheers,
  Anthony

From stewart at serissa.com  Tue Nov  5 13:48:48 2019
From: stewart at serissa.com (Lawrence Stewart)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 22:48:48 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <CAFH29tr8ckc+azKr6tCJ9C_0uN7UB_DTE-Bo9An1LjaJ67Mpww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
 <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
 <CAFH29tr8ckc+azKr6tCJ9C_0uN7UB_DTE-Bo9An1LjaJ67Mpww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BDB3B2E8-709B-4670-BB6A-146D8A6AB231@serissa.com>

I might have been the fan who called John Shoch and Jon Hupp’s attention to John Brunner.  At some point, Brunner came to visit PARC and we had a nice discussion about how Brunner had been able to anticipate this aspect of networking.

-Larry

> On 2019, Nov 4, at 2:24 PM, Richard Salz <rich.salz at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The John F. Shoch and Jon Hupp paper extensively credits Brunner, and uses quotes from the book as section intro's.
> 
> On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 1:58 PM Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com <mailto:bakul at bitblocks.com>> wrote:
> I am surprised no one mentioned The Shockwave Rider by John Brunner, published in 1975. Excerpt:
> 
> 

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From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Tue Nov  5 14:12:31 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 21:12:31 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <D986E076-E5AD-4A39-9859-E7EBDCC49404@gmail.com>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <D986E076-E5AD-4A39-9859-E7EBDCC49404@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f7526215-80a0-f0c7-e381-ea4c55e406ff@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 10/28/19 11:19 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:
> Too bad the LCM+L has my P/390 and I had to give my Integrated Server 
> back to IBM.


I recently acquired a P/390-E and I'd be happy to try running something 
on it.  It was a learning experience getting it up and operational. 
(That's a story for a different day.)

I'd love to get my hands on AIX/370.  I figured it was gone for good 
after I read that IBM tried to actively destroy it and wipe it from history.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Nov  6 00:15:35 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 09:15:35 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Unix, IBM, 370
In-Reply-To: <201911041443.xA4EhCqn023852@freefriends.org>
References: <20191029040434.GA29996@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <CAAOGWQhAnQvU6ro_sdj1iP0eRk5uWkUKxHebdwFfUsr8dFJ9zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910310751.x9V7pJ26030054@freefriends.org>
 <CAAOGWQicE=7phJsZ0ijBOn07z0278MoBgaurVGWZ5iaG7GChCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201910311410.x9VEAdor010114@freefriends.org>
 <CAC20D2Pz5d4n3ZDhP85d0dX97jLUi=kDKDKdNMZdw2D32Mk72w@mail.gmail.com>
 <201911030705.xA375twJ013107@freefriends.org>
 <CAC20D2P5pCL1yxUPxbvHBTNGDvy5jQa5AAxQwVeqe25NfyESVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <201911041443.xA4EhCqn023852@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Nn4hEL4gMOcg4LFfADaErkRaF2Zir_=3H_rdGeXVZZig@mail.gmail.com>

IBM owned TCF and it was 100% screwed down into AIX.   The clean room team
which did TNC used many of the ideas but tried to make it layered into 14
separate technologies so customer could pick and choose.   HP originally
picked up the process technology but not the FS work.   DEC was the
reverse.   Novell/Tandem took all it.  HP ended up with all the IP and in
the end released it as FOSS.   Hence the OpenSSI project

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 9:43 AM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:

> Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 12:06 AM <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > > The ideas were recreated as 14 different technologies called
> Transparent
> > > > Network Computing (TNC) that would end up in the FOSS community and
> added
> > > > to Linux 2x kernel as: OpenSSI <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSI>
> > >
> > > Am I wrong, or does nobody actually use this today? The opessi.org
> > > home page link from Wikipedia just seems to hang. And the files on the
> > > SourceForge page are 5 years old.
> > >
> > I suspect not - it was done to 2.6 kernel and none of the changes were
> > taken by Linus for 3x   Folks got discouraged and gave up
>
> Ah, OK. Thanks for the info. On the one hand, two bad. On the other hand,
> it looks like a real patchwork quilt of technologies...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Arnold
>
-- 
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
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From ron at ronnatalie.com  Wed Nov  6 02:04:49 2019
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ronald Natalie)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:04:49 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <BDB3B2E8-709B-4670-BB6A-146D8A6AB231@serissa.com>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
 <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
 <CAFH29tr8ckc+azKr6tCJ9C_0uN7UB_DTE-Bo9An1LjaJ67Mpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <BDB3B2E8-709B-4670-BB6A-146D8A6AB231@serissa.com>
Message-ID: <13E1AAB3-A21E-4364-934C-D5AA00059419@ronnatalie.com>

We got hit at Rutgers on some of our ancillary machines early in the day (the 750 that belonged really to the the JVN computing center mostly) and I collected the evidence and learned through the internet grapevine where the vulnerabilities were and plugged them (also wrote some scripts to look for the holes and evidence of the worm on other machines at RU).    Got everything cleaned up by noon time or so and I figured that was the end.   The next day I was scheduled to be in DC on other business so I felt confident on leaving.

Apparently however, the biggest impact on us of the worm had yet to hit.   The news caught wind of it that evening and started calling the computer center early the next morning.   I wasn’t there so it pretty much chewed up all of Chuck Hedrick’s day answering press inquiries.

From ron at ronnatalie.com  Wed Nov  6 02:21:10 2019
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ronald Natalie)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:21:10 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C50B42C-CDF9-47FE-B2D7-AB980C059099@ronnatalie.com>

One of my first jobs I did for the company that I ended up working for decades was a job for IBM FSD to put a second ethernet interface in to “secure XENIX” (a MLS system) to allow the system to be  used for downgrading classified material.    This gave us an in with IBM FSD and this led to us doing work with an IBM on a pair of microchannel i860 coprocessor cards called the Wizard and the W4.   We ported AIX to both of them.    The cards ran inside of another AIX PS/2 system so the TCF was really handy in allowing apps that only had 386 versions to run, the ability to maintain a common file system, and to share peripherals.   Indeed, I think the major reason IBM used the TCF concept is it gave the 370 version of the thing an easy way to interoperate with user’s on the PS/2’s.   3270’s and other terminals designed for the mainframe really weren’t suited for UNIX.

The initial Wizard card had no I/O other than the host PS/2.    It was really more or less an academic experiment (the cards were also buggy).    Two amusing things however came out of that port.   The AIX for the PS/2 had this thing to multiplex the normal VGA display (outside of X) called the “High Function Terminal.”   Our i860 version was less capable so it was denoted the “Low Function Terminal.”     The other was that I hacked the -mm macro package to mimic the style of the IBM manuals so we could write “IBM-ish” documentation.

The W4 card was interesting.   It had 4 i860 processors along with it’s own framebuffer.    One of my employees spent a lot of time of in Owego fixing the memory system (the whole thing was set up with these Xilinx PGAs that were easy to update in the field).     Amusingly, the machine-specific parts of the W4 version of the AIX kernel had more in common with the 370 version than the i386 version.     I spent weeks out at the IBM Palo Alto Science Center doing work on this project.    I had managed to inadvertantly shutdown the main AIX/370 in the cluster (such is a problem when things get too transparent).     Of course, while I had experience using VM/CMS before (both at the University of Maryalnd and at Rutgers), I’d never really much dealt with the operations side of the 370.    But I found my way to a 3270 and typed “ipl aix” with at the command line with extreme optimism, but that was indeed all it took.



From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Nov  6 03:30:01 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 12:30:01 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 10:40 PM Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've been trying to track down a copy of AIX/370 for
> that emulator, especially since I do run VM/370 Release 6 on it. One
> of the people in the community indicated that it was a product
>

I can verify for a fact that Locus received bug reports from all over the
world. There was a team in LA set up to handled them.  True, the customers
were reported to be more academic than commercial, but there were
commercial customers..  For instance, I was told that my current employer
ran the simulation for then proposed/in-development 80386 on a 370-PS/2
cluster under iTCF  FWIW: I was under the impression they used TCF to
migrate the very long running simulations from two different processors (I
don't know that for sure, but I have been told that by two different
people, so I'm comfortable repeating it).

I was also told, for an IBM customer to try to get the product was quite
difficult.  IBM sales basically tried really hard to not provide it and you
had to know about it and know you to ask to get it.  Charlie may know more,
but he was working on AIX/RS-6000 which as has been pointed out was a
separate code base.

As for finding an old copy of AIX/370 or AIX/386 (which are the same except
for specific code that cared), I wish you good luck.  IBM kept the IP
locked up.   We were firewalled at Locus and the code was only on a couple
of very special systems and access was tightly controlled.   I was not on
that team, so I never saw their raw IP ( so I would not be contaminated as
I was one of the TNC architects).  But I was allowed to talk with Bruce and
Greg who were the TCF architects.   We did all talk about common issues;
but Greg and Bruce stayed out the TNC IP (until after the IBM contract
ended) and myself and Roman stayed out of TCF.


Clem
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From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Wed Nov  6 04:04:09 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:04:09 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <8C50B42C-CDF9-47FE-B2D7-AB980C059099@ronnatalie.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C50B42C-CDF9-47FE-B2D7-AB980C059099@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBQH=58m_-O0uGDQAhEuOfr+nhAnTxik8EY9PJ=cS7r3w@mail.gmail.com>

Veering off topic but I'm familiar with the Wizard
http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/CPU/wizard.html

What was the framebuffer used for/under?

The HFT and LFT terms were carried forth into POWER AIX.  AIX 3.x had
a home grown HFT with virtual terminals and some other semi-graphical
features.  AIX 4.X ported a STREAMs based console I/O stack from OSF
and they called it the LFT because it lost all those features; users
were directed to X11 for advanced terminal handling.

Regards,
Kevin

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 9:21 AM Ronald Natalie <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
>
> One of my first jobs I did for the company that I ended up working for decades was a job for IBM FSD to put a second ethernet interface in to “secure XENIX” (a MLS system) to allow the system to be  used for downgrading classified material.    This gave us an in with IBM FSD and this led to us doing work with an IBM on a pair of microchannel i860 coprocessor cards called the Wizard and the W4.   We ported AIX to both of them.    The cards ran inside of another AIX PS/2 system so the TCF was really handy in allowing apps that only had 386 versions to run, the ability to maintain a common file system, and to share peripherals.   Indeed, I think the major reason IBM used the TCF concept is it gave the 370 version of the thing an easy way to interoperate with user’s on the PS/2’s.   3270’s and other terminals designed for the mainframe really weren’t suited for UNIX.
>
> The initial Wizard card had no I/O other than the host PS/2.    It was really more or less an academic experiment (the cards were also buggy).    Two amusing things however came out of that port.   The AIX for the PS/2 had this thing to multiplex the normal VGA display (outside of X) called the “High Function Terminal.”   Our i860 version was less capable so it was denoted the “Low Function Terminal.”     The other was that I hacked the -mm macro package to mimic the style of the IBM manuals so we could write “IBM-ish” documentation.
>
> The W4 card was interesting.   It had 4 i860 processors along with it’s own framebuffer.    One of my employees spent a lot of time of in Owego fixing the memory system (the whole thing was set up with these Xilinx PGAs that were easy to update in the field).     Amusingly, the machine-specific parts of the W4 version of the AIX kernel had more in common with the 370 version than the i386 version.     I spent weeks out at the IBM Palo Alto Science Center doing work on this project.    I had managed to inadvertantly shutdown the main AIX/370 in the cluster (such is a problem when things get too transparent).     Of course, while I had experience using VM/CMS before (both at the University of Maryalnd and at Rutgers), I’d never really much dealt with the operations side of the 370.    But I found my way to a 3270 and typed “ipl aix” with at the command line with extreme optimism, but that was indeed all it took.
>
>

From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Wed Nov  6 04:07:51 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:07:51 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>

Clem,

The AIX/386 stuff is readily available http://ps-2.kev009.com/aixps2/
and can run in virtualbox
https://astr0baby.wordpress.com/2018/09/14/running-aix-1-3-inside-virtual-box-5-2-16/

Regards,
Kevin

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 10:30 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 10:40 PM Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've been trying to track down a copy of AIX/370 for
>> that emulator, especially since I do run VM/370 Release 6 on it. One
>> of the people in the community indicated that it was a product
>
>
> I can verify for a fact that Locus received bug reports from all over the world. There was a team in LA set up to handled them.  True, the customers were reported to be more academic than commercial, but there were commercial customers..  For instance, I was told that my current employer ran the simulation for then proposed/in-development 80386 on a 370-PS/2 cluster under iTCF  FWIW: I was under the impression they used TCF to migrate the very long running simulations from two different processors (I don't know that for sure, but I have been told that by two different people, so I'm comfortable repeating it).
>
> I was also told, for an IBM customer to try to get the product was quite difficult.  IBM sales basically tried really hard to not provide it and you had to know about it and know you to ask to get it.  Charlie may know more, but he was working on AIX/RS-6000 which as has been pointed out was a separate code base.
>
> As for finding an old copy of AIX/370 or AIX/386 (which are the same except for specific code that cared), I wish you good luck.  IBM kept the IP locked up.   We were firewalled at Locus and the code was only on a couple of very special systems and access was tightly controlled.   I was not on that team, so I never saw their raw IP ( so I would not be contaminated as I was one of the TNC architects).  But I was allowed to talk with Bruce and Greg who were the TCF architects.   We did all talk about common issues; but Greg and Bruce stayed out the TNC IP (until after the IBM contract ended) and myself and Roman stayed out of TCF.
>
>
> Clem
>
>

From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Nov  6 04:15:26 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:15:26 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2P3FG_dSDfN10m_XSV-rvQaFES40KkfsNZn=mtd6aGbkg@mail.gmail.com>

Oh boy another time sync ;-)
Thanks Kevin.
Clem

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:08 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com>
wrote:

> Clem,
>
> The AIX/386 stuff is readily available http://ps-2.kev009.com/aixps2/
> and can run in virtualbox
>
> https://astr0baby.wordpress.com/2018/09/14/running-aix-1-3-inside-virtual-box-5-2-16/
>
> Regards,
> Kevin
>
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 10:30 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 10:40 PM Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I've been trying to track down a copy of AIX/370 for
> >> that emulator, especially since I do run VM/370 Release 6 on it. One
> >> of the people in the community indicated that it was a product
> >
> >
> > I can verify for a fact that Locus received bug reports from all over
> the world. There was a team in LA set up to handled them.  True, the
> customers were reported to be more academic than commercial, but there were
> commercial customers..  For instance, I was told that my current employer
> ran the simulation for then proposed/in-development 80386 on a 370-PS/2
> cluster under iTCF  FWIW: I was under the impression they used TCF to
> migrate the very long running simulations from two different processors (I
> don't know that for sure, but I have been told that by two different
> people, so I'm comfortable repeating it).
> >
> > I was also told, for an IBM customer to try to get the product was quite
> difficult.  IBM sales basically tried really hard to not provide it and you
> had to know about it and know you to ask to get it.  Charlie may know more,
> but he was working on AIX/RS-6000 which as has been pointed out was a
> separate code base.
> >
> > As for finding an old copy of AIX/370 or AIX/386 (which are the same
> except for specific code that cared), I wish you good luck.  IBM kept the
> IP locked up.   We were firewalled at Locus and the code was only on a
> couple of very special systems and access was tightly controlled.   I was
> not on that team, so I never saw their raw IP ( so I would not be
> contaminated as I was one of the TNC architects).  But I was allowed to
> talk with Bruce and Greg who were the TCF architects.   We did all talk
> about common issues; but Greg and Bruce stayed out the TNC IP (until after
> the IBM contract ended) and myself and Roman stayed out of TCF.
> >
> >
> > Clem
> >
> >
>
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From cbbrowne at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 05:03:42 2019
From: cbbrowne at gmail.com (Christopher Browne)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:03:42 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFNqd5UgLiawhFx_KHpip-eN--p+rqFiOLXHjrdZc0mF4Vd5Lg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 13:08, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com> wrote:

> Clem,
>
> The AIX/386 stuff is readily available http://ps-2.kev009.com/aixps2/
> and can run in virtualbox
>
> https://astr0baby.wordpress.com/2018/09/14/running-aix-1-3-inside-virtual-box-5-2-16/
>

Wow, so the "x86" version of AIX truly existed!

I had long heard rumour of this, and had heard of it from sources I was
inclined to trust not to be making it up.  The dates seem to decently
explain the invisibility; introduction in 1992 and withdrawal in March 1995
left but a brief period of time when anyone would have been willing to
acknowledge it as a product.
-- 
When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
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From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Wed Nov  6 05:12:00 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 12:12:00 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAFNqd5UgLiawhFx_KHpip-eN--p+rqFiOLXHjrdZc0mF4Vd5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFNqd5UgLiawhFx_KHpip-eN--p+rqFiOLXHjrdZc0mF4Vd5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtBLYpbvE6vfwdnjTPMY2WrWGVCyyqgOYOmb9xPe_ATHLg@mail.gmail.com>

It was used in academia although it did appear elsewhere for instance in
some PLC applications, for a long while some supertankers were running
PS/2s with Optio22 I/O boards to control pumps and whatnot.

I have seen the media kits in person recently.  They comically come with an
“action” key cap for your Model M.  I have a picture of interested.

I don’t think the lack of popularity was any conspiracy.  SCO had much
better ISV and hardware support for PS/2. And if you had a nickel for a
real computer there’s a reason the RS/6000 platform and AIX are still
around today, it’s not bad stuff despite being a bit different and foreign.

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:03 PM Christopher Browne <cbbrowne at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 at 13:08, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Clem,
>>
>> The AIX/386 stuff is readily available http://ps-2.kev009.com/aixps2/
>> and can run in virtualbox
>>
>> https://astr0baby.wordpress.com/2018/09/14/running-aix-1-3-inside-virtual-box-5-2-16/
>>
>
> Wow, so the "x86" version of AIX truly existed!
>
> I had long heard rumour of this, and had heard of it from sources I was
> inclined to trust not to be making it up.  The dates seem to decently
> explain the invisibility; introduction in 1992 and withdrawal in March 1995
> left but a brief period of time when anyone would have been willing to
> acknowledge it as a product.
>
> --
> When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the
> question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
>
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From ron at ronnatalie.com  Wed Nov  6 05:22:17 2019
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:22:17 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtBQH=58m_-O0uGDQAhEuOfr+nhAnTxik8EY9PJ=cS7r3w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <8C50B42C-CDF9-47FE-B2D7-AB980C059099@ronnatalie.com>
 <CAK7dMtBQH=58m_-O0uGDQAhEuOfr+nhAnTxik8EY9PJ=cS7r3w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <063601d5940e$56d091a0$0471b4e0$@ronnatalie.com>


> Veering off topic but I'm familiar with the Wizard http://ps-
> 2.kev009.com/ohlandl/CPU/wizard.html

Yep, we started with it and HOSTLINK (Intel's software) but we switched it to a two-node AIX cluster (one with the i386 and one with the Wizard).
> 
> What was the framebuffer used for/under?

It ran X and was used in our application to run our proprietary image processing software.


From spedraja at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 05:26:24 2019
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:26:24 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtBLYpbvE6vfwdnjTPMY2WrWGVCyyqgOYOmb9xPe_ATHLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFNqd5UgLiawhFx_KHpip-eN--p+rqFiOLXHjrdZc0mF4Vd5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtBLYpbvE6vfwdnjTPMY2WrWGVCyyqgOYOmb9xPe_ATHLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF-5WhbRJqAw1CCP4-0tjv1U_WwKaXKticqrrTycUo9Uew@mail.gmail.com>

El mar., 5 nov. 2019 20:12, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com>
escribió:

> It was used in academia although it did appear elsewhere for instance in
> some PLC applications, for a long while some supertankers were running
> PS/2s with Optio22 I/O boards to control pumps and whatnot.
>

It's available as diskette images on Internet from veras algo. But it can
be installed and run mostly for cause of the advance in the virtualization
applications, together with some specific efforts of investigation and
testing.

And yes, we used SCO for our PS/2 servers running Unix or Unix-like. No
discussion, at least until some years after when I installed one RS/6000
server with AIX 3.2

Regards
Sergio
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From spedraja at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 05:28:00 2019
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:28:00 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF-5WhbRJqAw1CCP4-0tjv1U_WwKaXKticqrrTycUo9Uew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFNqd5UgLiawhFx_KHpip-eN--p+rqFiOLXHjrdZc0mF4Vd5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtBLYpbvE6vfwdnjTPMY2WrWGVCyyqgOYOmb9xPe_ATHLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF-5WhbRJqAw1CCP4-0tjv1U_WwKaXKticqrrTycUo9Uew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF_gyyLggNOkRFGXXcodSQLvh7u4pfK0mrPHpv7Yst1z-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Uh... "veras algo" means "years ago". My apologies.

El mar., 5 nov. 2019 20:26, SPC <spedraja at gmail.com> escribió:

>
>
> El mar., 5 nov. 2019 20:12, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com>
> escribió:
>
>> It was used in academia although it did appear elsewhere for instance in
>> some PLC applications, for a long while some supertankers were running
>> PS/2s with Optio22 I/O boards to control pumps and whatnot.
>>
>
> It's available as diskette images on Internet from veras algo. But it can
> be installed and run mostly for cause of the advance in the virtualization
> applications, together with some specific efforts of investigation and
> testing.
>
> And yes, we used SCO for our PS/2 servers running Unix or Unix-like. No
> discussion, at least until some years after when I installed one RS/6000
> server with AIX 3.2
>
> Regards
> Sergio
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Nov  6 06:10:00 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 15:10:00 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAFNqd5UgLiawhFx_KHpip-eN--p+rqFiOLXHjrdZc0mF4Vd5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFNqd5UgLiawhFx_KHpip-eN--p+rqFiOLXHjrdZc0mF4Vd5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2ORG2Yrg06HC-8Bhihe1fB6zuXBzSg9a9CGhT04d39=OQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 2:03 PM Christopher Browne <cbbrowne at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The dates seem to decently explain the invisibility; introduction in 1992
>
The formal introduction of the PS/2 was April 87 (by the crew of Mash for
the TV ads IIRC).  Again, if my memory serves LCC started working on UNIX
for the 370 in the mid'86s, actually before the PS/2 was announced, which
would be announced as AIX/370.   ISC had done the original 386 port for
Intel, IBM, and AT&T - but that was for an ISA based systems originally
[Phil Shevrin pulled one of the best sales jobs I ever knew -- he got paid
three times for the same basic work].

At some point (and I would have to ask someone like Bruce Walker or Greg
Thiel for the better info), the contract got widen AIX to include the PS/2
- a.k.a. create AIX/386.  How much of the original ISC work was that build
upon, I never knew.

LCC worked for a number of years and the two AIX's were available for
customers, probably under a special University license.   The formal
introduction was later (and '92 sounds right). But there were sites that
had one or both before that time.   I want to say, LCC worked with IBM for
about 8-10 years starting in the mid-80s. BTW: They also did a UNIX port to
AS/400 (on top of the native OS - similar to Eunice for the VAX or today's
MingWin and Dave Korn's UWIN stuff).   I've forgotten the dates on that, I
want to say 93/94 time frame.

Enough time has gone by, I think I can safely tell another story, WRT the
AS/400.  When that happened, IBM and LCC had a number oif years under their
bridge and the LCC management team thought we knew how to work with IBM.
Since we had a base IBM contract, we all figured that could be
added/amended to as needed.  When the folks from Rochester called asking
about a quote for the AS/400 work, our sales folks trotted out the existing
contract for AIX and figured - ok write a new SOW and we are done.   Nope
-- different division/different set of lawyers.  Something was said to us
in the form of 'Rochester Won the Baldridge Award.'   I remember our CEO
groaning - and saying something like 'Here we go again.'  It was then I
realized IBM was N different companies, each competing with each other.

Clem
ᐧ
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From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Wed Nov  6 06:26:56 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:26:56 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF_gyyLggNOkRFGXXcodSQLvh7u4pfK0mrPHpv7Yst1z-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFNqd5UgLiawhFx_KHpip-eN--p+rqFiOLXHjrdZc0mF4Vd5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtBLYpbvE6vfwdnjTPMY2WrWGVCyyqgOYOmb9xPe_ATHLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF-5WhbRJqAw1CCP4-0tjv1U_WwKaXKticqrrTycUo9Uew@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACytpF_gyyLggNOkRFGXXcodSQLvh7u4pfK0mrPHpv7Yst1z-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtCEgXNHpForW+C+sOKsTi8LypeBkAZpfSH5aE-LEYvHsQ@mail.gmail.com>

Yup I was involved in the salvage and was the first purveyor of these
floppies to the modern internet.  Saying this as it is germane to my
original post in the thread, I have a lot of experience doing this kind of
thing and I need willing connections to the source materials in question.

Regards,
Kevin

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:28 PM SPC <spedraja at gmail.com> wrote:

> Uh... "veras algo" means "years ago". My apologies.
>
> El mar., 5 nov. 2019 20:26, SPC <spedraja at gmail.com> escribió:
>
>>
>>
>> El mar., 5 nov. 2019 20:12, Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com>
>> escribió:
>>
>>> It was used in academia although it did appear elsewhere for instance in
>>> some PLC applications, for a long while some supertankers were running
>>> PS/2s with Optio22 I/O boards to control pumps and whatnot.
>>>
>>
>> It's available as diskette images on Internet from veras algo. But it can
>> be installed and run mostly for cause of the advance in the virtualization
>> applications, together with some specific efforts of investigation and
>> testing.
>>
>> And yes, we used SCO for our PS/2 servers running Unix or Unix-like. No
>> discussion, at least until some years after when I installed one RS/6000
>> server with AIX 3.2
>>
>> Regards
>> Sergio
>>
>
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From kevin.bowling at kev009.com  Wed Nov  6 06:42:37 2019
From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 13:42:37 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2ORG2Yrg06HC-8Bhihe1fB6zuXBzSg9a9CGhT04d39=OQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFNqd5UgLiawhFx_KHpip-eN--p+rqFiOLXHjrdZc0mF4Vd5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2ORG2Yrg06HC-8Bhihe1fB6zuXBzSg9a9CGhT04d39=OQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAK7dMtC=P6pCL9ac0YGLZ=p_bFVqNdAT9wmaEeC7hebLauXC4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Clem,

I am very curious about this UNIX for OS/400 work it sounds either
different or much earlier than what I am familiar with.  I am familiar with
the PASE environment that shipped around OS/400 V4R4 (1999?).  After
AS/400s started running PowerPCish CPUs (there is a bit of history there I
won't dive into) PASE was like WINE for Linux.. same CPU arch, do some
library and linker/loader tricks to hoist a different (AIX 4.3 first)
environment within OS/400s understanding of the universe.  A year or so
later, some very bright group figured to use the OS/400's Single Level
Store as the device model/device virtualization for the CPU virtualization
(LPAR) in later POWER CPUs.  You could run Linux or OS/400 or AIX this
way.  That work was then somewhat inverted, and pHyp was born from the
OS/400's SILC idea of machine dependent code as a light weight firmware
hypervisor in the converging iSeries and pSeries POWER systems.. they
switched the device model/device virtualization to AIX called APV or
PowerVM.

It was nicknamed "Fortress Rochester" for a reason.  They did some very
nice work.  But yeah IBM was running 4 large and extremely different
computing businesses in the 1990s and probably some smaller ones too.  They
were very different but the systems did interoperate pretty well given the
stakes.

Regards,
Kevin

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:10 PM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 2:03 PM Christopher Browne <cbbrowne at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The dates seem to decently explain the invisibility; introduction in 1992
>>
> The formal introduction of the PS/2 was April 87 (by the crew of Mash for
> the TV ads IIRC).  Again, if my memory serves LCC started working on UNIX
> for the 370 in the mid'86s, actually before the PS/2 was announced, which
> would be announced as AIX/370.   ISC had done the original 386 port for
> Intel, IBM, and AT&T - but that was for an ISA based systems originally
> [Phil Shevrin pulled one of the best sales jobs I ever knew -- he got paid
> three times for the same basic work].
>
> At some point (and I would have to ask someone like Bruce Walker or Greg
> Thiel for the better info), the contract got widen AIX to include the PS/2
> - a.k.a. create AIX/386.  How much of the original ISC work was that build
> upon, I never knew.
>
> LCC worked for a number of years and the two AIX's were available for
> customers, probably under a special University license.   The formal
> introduction was later (and '92 sounds right). But there were sites that
> had one or both before that time.   I want to say, LCC worked with IBM for
> about 8-10 years starting in the mid-80s. BTW: They also did a UNIX port to
> AS/400 (on top of the native OS - similar to Eunice for the VAX or
> today's MingWin and Dave Korn's UWIN stuff).   I've forgotten the dates on
> that, I want to say 93/94 time frame.
>
> Enough time has gone by, I think I can safely tell another story, WRT the
> AS/400.  When that happened, IBM and LCC had a number oif years under their
> bridge and the LCC management team thought we knew how to work with IBM.
> Since we had a base IBM contract, we all figured that could be
> added/amended to as needed.  When the folks from Rochester called asking
> about a quote for the AS/400 work, our sales folks trotted out the existing
> contract for AIX and figured - ok write a new SOW and we are done.   Nope
> -- different division/different set of lawyers.  Something was said to us
> in the form of 'Rochester Won the Baldridge Award.'   I remember our CEO
> groaning - and saying something like 'Here we go again.'  It was then I
> realized IBM was N different companies, each competing with each other.
>
> Clem
> ᐧ
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Nov  6 07:11:15 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 16:11:15 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAK7dMtC=P6pCL9ac0YGLZ=p_bFVqNdAT9wmaEeC7hebLauXC4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtAsBrLfuPOam0EfF3JyMqarnSrv-aHC8SwBRa=tpowzow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFNqd5UgLiawhFx_KHpip-eN--p+rqFiOLXHjrdZc0mF4Vd5Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2ORG2Yrg06HC-8Bhihe1fB6zuXBzSg9a9CGhT04d39=OQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK7dMtC=P6pCL9ac0YGLZ=p_bFVqNdAT9wmaEeC7hebLauXC4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2MKK3DwKnBN_1AR3DGcc1Ri0Pak4tXJLz3xnuYjG5u4TQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've long forgotten the name of the work.    I worked on the proposal and
part of the design study, but not the project itself.  I had my hands full
with leading the HP and DEC TNC stuff.  IIRC Joe Hopfield was the lead on
it.     It was not really in the key of WINE.  It was sort of cross
between UWIN and Interix POSIX subsystem that now ships as WSL.  I've
forgotten a lot of the details now, to be honest.  I seem to remember they
used the SLS as part of the scheme, but I think there was a 'process' that
was booted under OS/400 that took serviced UNIX/POSIX processes system
functions.  I'll send a note a couple of LCC alumni and see if I can find
someone that knew more about it.

Clem
ᐧ

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 3:42 PM Kevin Bowling <kevin.bowling at kev009.com>
wrote:

> Clem,
>
> I am very curious about this UNIX for OS/400 work it sounds either
> different or much earlier than what I am familiar with.  I am familiar with
> the PASE environment that shipped around OS/400 V4R4 (1999?).  After
> AS/400s started running PowerPCish CPUs (there is a bit of history there I
> won't dive into) PASE was like WINE for Linux.. same CPU arch, do some
> library and linker/loader tricks to hoist a different (AIX 4.3 first)
> environment within OS/400s understanding of the universe.  A year or so
> later, some very bright group figured to use the OS/400's Single Level
> Store as the device model/device virtualization for the CPU virtualization
> (LPAR) in later POWER CPUs.  You could run Linux or OS/400 or AIX this
> way.  That work was then somewhat inverted, and pHyp was born from the
> OS/400's SILC idea of machine dependent code as a light weight firmware
> hypervisor in the converging iSeries and pSeries POWER systems.. they
> switched the device model/device virtualization to AIX called APV or
> PowerVM.
>
> It was nicknamed "Fortress Rochester" for a reason.  They did some very
> nice work.  But yeah IBM was running 4 large and extremely different
> computing businesses in the 1990s and probably some smaller ones too.  They
> were very different but the systems did interoperate pretty well given the
> stakes.
>
> Regards,
> Kevin
>
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:10 PM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 2:03 PM Christopher Browne <cbbrowne at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The dates seem to decently explain the invisibility; introduction in
>>> 1992
>>>
>> The formal introduction of the PS/2 was April 87 (by the crew of Mash for
>> the TV ads IIRC).  Again, if my memory serves LCC started working on UNIX
>> for the 370 in the mid'86s, actually before the PS/2 was announced, which
>> would be announced as AIX/370.   ISC had done the original 386 port for
>> Intel, IBM, and AT&T - but that was for an ISA based systems originally
>> [Phil Shevrin pulled one of the best sales jobs I ever knew -- he got paid
>> three times for the same basic work].
>>
>> At some point (and I would have to ask someone like Bruce Walker or Greg
>> Thiel for the better info), the contract got widen AIX to include the PS/2
>> - a.k.a. create AIX/386.  How much of the original ISC work was that build
>> upon, I never knew.
>>
>> LCC worked for a number of years and the two AIX's were available for
>> customers, probably under a special University license.   The formal
>> introduction was later (and '92 sounds right). But there were sites that
>> had one or both before that time.   I want to say, LCC worked with IBM for
>> about 8-10 years starting in the mid-80s. BTW: They also did a UNIX port to
>> AS/400 (on top of the native OS - similar to Eunice for the VAX or
>> today's MingWin and Dave Korn's UWIN stuff).   I've forgotten the dates on
>> that, I want to say 93/94 time frame.
>>
>> Enough time has gone by, I think I can safely tell another story, WRT the
>> AS/400.  When that happened, IBM and LCC had a number oif years under their
>> bridge and the LCC management team thought we knew how to work with IBM.
>> Since we had a base IBM contract, we all figured that could be
>> added/amended to as needed.  When the folks from Rochester called asking
>> about a quote for the AS/400 work, our sales folks trotted out the existing
>> contract for AIX and figured - ok write a new SOW and we are done.   Nope
>> -- different division/different set of lawyers.  Something was said to us
>> in the form of 'Rochester Won the Baldridge Award.'   I remember our CEO
>> groaning - and saying something like 'Here we go again.'  It was then I
>> realized IBM was N different companies, each competing with each other.
>>
>> Clem
>> ᐧ
>>
>
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From sauer at technologists.com  Wed Nov  6 08:11:11 2019
From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 16:11:11 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] one element of one of M factions of N companies [Re: Amdahl
 UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>

Clem says today "It was then I realized IBM was N different companies, 
each competing with each other." He's said that to me before and I then 
responded "Actually, it was more like M competing factions within N 
competing companies."

It has been illuminating, surprising, but not shocking, the last week of 
so, to learn from from posts here, that AIX/370 was hard to get and 
mostly a university offering. What we (AIX people associated with RT/PC 
and then RS/6000) were told was that "everybody", especially Federal 
customers, wanted what became known as TCF (the original Locus work) for 
370 and PS/2. I remember one Federal Systems Division person who seemed 
especially effective as a Locus advocate. I'd always assumed AIX/370 and 
AIX PS/2 became more available than reported here, but I left IBM before 
they were released.

Enumerating factions/companies, just regarding AIX & Unix, there were 
the Federal Systems faction/company, the academic factions/company 
(primarily two factions, BSD & TCF, in Palo Alto), the PS/2 
faction/company, the Rochester System/38->AS/400 faction/company, the 
Austin development lab, several Research locations (primarily Yorktown), ...

And in LCC there were the firewalled TCF/TNC entities.

It would be interesting to know more from the TCF folks at LCC. With 
Jerry's passing, if there is to be further clarity on what happened with 
AIX/370, it would probably have to come from Bruce Walker or Greg Thiel. 
I don't think I've had contact with either since I left IBM in 1989.

CHS

On 11/5/2019 11:30 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 10:40 PM Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com 
> <mailto:gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     I've been trying to track down a copy of AIX/370 for
>     that emulator, especially since I do run VM/370 Release 6 on it. One
>     of the people in the community indicated that it was a product

> I was also told, for an IBM customer to try to get the product was quite 
> difficult.  IBM sales basically tried really hard to not provide it and 
> you had to know about it and know you to ask to get it.  Charlie may 
> know more, but he was working on AIX/RS-6000 which as has been pointed 
> out was a separate code base.


-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer at technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

From tytso at mit.edu  Wed Nov  6 10:06:00 2019
From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Y. Ts'o)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 19:06:00 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] one element of one of M factions of N companies [Re:
 Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>
Message-ID: <20191106000600.GD26959@mit.edu>

On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 04:11:11PM -0600, Charles H Sauer wrote:
> It has been illuminating, surprising, but not shocking, the last week of so,
> to learn from from posts here, that AIX/370 was hard to get and mostly a
> university offering. What we (AIX people associated with RT/PC and then
> RS/6000) were told was that "everybody", especially Federal customers,
> wanted what became known as TCF (the original Locus work) for 370 and PS/2.
> I remember one Federal Systems Division person who seemed especially
> effective as a Locus advocate. I'd always assumed AIX/370 and AIX PS/2
> became more available than reported here, but I left IBM before they were
> released.
>
> Enumerating factions/companies, just regarding AIX & Unix, there were the
> Federal Systems faction/company, the academic factions/company (primarily
> two factions, BSD & TCF, in Palo Alto), the PS/2 faction/company, the
> Rochester System/38->AS/400 faction/company, the Austin development lab,
> several Research locations (primarily Yorktown), ...
> 

There was also AOS (Academic Operating System) which was basically
repackaged BSD 4.x ported to the IBM/RT PC[1].  At MIT's Project
Athena, most people massively preferred it to AIX, but we were force
marched to AIX by 1987 or 1988.  :-/

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RT_PC#Software

				- Ted


From sauer at technologists.com  Wed Nov  6 13:36:14 2019
From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H. Sauer)
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 21:36:14 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] one element of one of M factions of N companies [Re:
 Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <20191106000600.GD26959@mit.edu>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>
 <20191106000600.GD26959@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <479EA77E-E0A7-4B27-AEBB-42948309C03E@technologists.com>

Yes, but maybe the forced march at Athena was a year or so later, ’88 or ’89?? There was a preceding IBM internal “forced march” involving Bruce Walker from LCC, people from Palo Alto responsible for AOS (two co-authors of https://technologists.com/sauer/Convergence_of_AIX_and_4.3BSD.pdf <https://technologists.com/sauer/Convergence_of_AIX_and_4.3BSD.pdf> plus a couple of others) and AIX people. The work in that 1989 Uniforum paper was done in 1988, targeting AIX 3, as discussed a little more in https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2017/03/08/lets-start-at-the-very-beginning-801-romp-rtpc-aix-versions/ <https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2017/03/08/lets-start-at-the-very-beginning-801-romp-rtpc-aix-versions/>. 

When I left IBM at the beginning of May 1989, I was running AOS on my home RT and AIX 2.2 on my office machine.

> On Nov 5, 2019, at 6:06 PM, Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso at mit.edu> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 04:11:11PM -0600, Charles H Sauer wrote:
>> It has been illuminating, surprising, but not shocking, the last week of so,
>> to learn from from posts here, that AIX/370 was hard to get and mostly a
>> university offering. What we (AIX people associated with RT/PC and then
>> RS/6000) were told was that "everybody", especially Federal customers,
>> wanted what became known as TCF (the original Locus work) for 370 and PS/2.
>> I remember one Federal Systems Division person who seemed especially
>> effective as a Locus advocate. I'd always assumed AIX/370 and AIX PS/2
>> became more available than reported here, but I left IBM before they were
>> released.
>> 
>> Enumerating factions/companies, just regarding AIX & Unix, there were the
>> Federal Systems faction/company, the academic factions/company (primarily
>> two factions, BSD & TCF, in Palo Alto), the PS/2 faction/company, the
>> Rochester System/38->AS/400 faction/company, the Austin development lab,
>> several Research locations (primarily Yorktown), ...
>> 
> 
> There was also AOS (Academic Operating System) which was basically
> repackaged BSD 4.x ported to the IBM/RT PC[1].  At MIT's Project
> Athena, most people massively preferred it to AIX, but we were force
> marched to AIX by 1987 or 1988.  :-/
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RT_PC#Software
> 
> 				- Ted

--
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer at technologists.com <mailto:sauer at technologists.com>           
fax: +1.512.346.5240         web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ <http://technologists.com/sauer/>
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

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From spedraja at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 17:59:12 2019
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 08:59:12 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <479EA77E-E0A7-4B27-AEBB-42948309C03E@technologists.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>
 <20191106000600.GD26959@mit.edu>
 <479EA77E-E0A7-4B27-AEBB-42948309C03E@technologists.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF87sSza+jiOrurX_H39p6jgwCW92oY1Twgy_qoPYB2p2w@mail.gmail.com>

El mié., 6 nov. 2019 4:37, Charles H. Sauer <sauer at technologists.com>
escribió:

>
> When I left IBM at the beginning of May 1989, I was running AOS on my home
> RT and AIX 2.2 on my office machine
>

With permisión, I have one question fron years about this... Is it AOS
stuff saved and available (including source code) un some place on the
Internet?

I would ask too about some kind of emulator of the IBM/RT, but I never find
one.

Regards
Sergio
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From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Nov  6 20:37:22 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2019 03:37:22 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <13E1AAB3-A21E-4364-934C-D5AA00059419@ronnatalie.com>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
 <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
 <CAFH29tr8ckc+azKr6tCJ9C_0uN7UB_DTE-Bo9An1LjaJ67Mpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <BDB3B2E8-709B-4670-BB6A-146D8A6AB231@serissa.com>
 <13E1AAB3-A21E-4364-934C-D5AA00059419@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <201911061037.xA6AbMlk014673@freefriends.org>

Ronald Natalie <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> We got hit at Rutgers on some of our ancillary machines early in the day ...

Our Unix systems (Emory U. Computer Center and Math/CS systems) were running
a custom sendmail config that I wrote, so the worm bypassed us. We were lucky. :-)

Arnold

From ron at ronnatalie.com  Wed Nov  6 23:35:54 2019
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (Ronald Natalie)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 08:35:54 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <201911061037.xA6AbMlk014673@freefriends.org>
References: <mailman.3.1572832803.30037.tuhs@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <116B676F-5917-481A-9634-0E6C5F702B9B@mcjones.org>
 <B3FDDCB1-F046-486C-B640-5A09D468A421@bitblocks.com>
 <CAFH29tr8ckc+azKr6tCJ9C_0uN7UB_DTE-Bo9An1LjaJ67Mpww@mail.gmail.com>
 <BDB3B2E8-709B-4670-BB6A-146D8A6AB231@serissa.com>
 <13E1AAB3-A21E-4364-934C-D5AA00059419@ronnatalie.com>
 <201911061037.xA6AbMlk014673@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <CAFA0142-2D94-4ABB-ABE6-7A5893DB0BDC@ronnatalie.com>

The WIZ hack was well known by the time the worm exploited it.    I’d recompiled sendmail to get rid of it even being an option on all the machines directly under my control.    The 750 in question was operated ostensibly by the JVNCNet people, but I had the root pasword (I guess I really didn’t need it with that security hole in it anyhow).

> On Nov 6, 2019, at 5:37 AM, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> Ronald Natalie <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:
> 
>> We got hit at Rutgers on some of our ancillary machines early in the day ...
> 
> Our Unix systems (Emory U. Computer Center and Math/CS systems) were running
> a custom sendmail config that I wrote, so the worm bypassed us. We were lucky. :-)
> 
> Arnold


From sauer at technologists.com  Thu Nov  7 01:51:20 2019
From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 09:51:20 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF87sSza+jiOrurX_H39p6jgwCW92oY1Twgy_qoPYB2p2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>
 <20191106000600.GD26959@mit.edu>
 <479EA77E-E0A7-4B27-AEBB-42948309C03E@technologists.com>
 <CACytpF87sSza+jiOrurX_H39p6jgwCW92oY1Twgy_qoPYB2p2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c0802ee-cd63-73b2-953f-a1d47901bd63@technologists.com>

I'm not aware of AOS source anywhere, but plausibly someone from Athena 
or CMU might still have it. If I recall correctly, it came on large tape 
cartridges.

There was some AOS stuff at www.dementia.org/~shadow/ibmrt.html, some 
still present at 
http://web.archive.org/web/20110725231604/http://www.dementia.org/~shadow/ibmrt.html, 
but the ftp stuff seems to be gone.

Also some AOS stuff at https://amaus.net/static/S100/IBM/RTPC/AOS/.

I'm not aware of RT or 6K emulators available. I think there is more 
recent AIX on SIMH 
(https://astr0baby.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/running-aix-7-2-tl3sp1-on-x86_64-via-qemu-system-ppc64/), 
but I've not looked at it.

CHS

On 11/6/2019 1:59 AM, SPC wrote:
> 
> 
> El mié., 6 nov. 2019 4:37, Charles H. Sauer <sauer at technologists.com 
> <mailto:sauer at technologists.com>> escribió:
> 
> 
>     When I left IBM at the beginning of May 1989, I was running AOS on
>     my home RT and AIX 2.2 on my office machine
> 
> 
> With permisión, I have one question fron years about this... Is it AOS 
> stuff saved and available (including source code) un some place on the 
> Internet?
> 
> I would ask too about some kind of emulator of the IBM/RT, but I never 
> find one.
> 
> Regards
> Sergio
> 

-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer at technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

From patbarron at acm.org  Thu Nov  7 06:28:22 2019
From: patbarron at acm.org (Pat Barron)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:28:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.21.1911061523240.25050@booboo.lectroid.com>

I may still have AOS 4.3 tape images still around somewhere.  I will have 
to search around and see if I still have them.  Though even if I do, I'm 
not sure if the license would permit me to make them available - if I 
recall correctly, this wasn't an actual LPP, but there may be some IBM 
license on this over and above the Berkeley license.  Yes, it did come on 
tape cartridges.

--Pat.

From patbarron at acm.org  Thu Nov  7 06:31:31 2019
From: patbarron at acm.org (Pat Barron)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 15:31:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.21.1911061530390.25050@booboo.lectroid.com>

Also, I'm still in touch with shadow, I can ask if there's a mirror of 
that IBM RT page still around.

--Pat.

From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net  Fri Nov  8 08:40:03 2019
From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 15:40:03 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <2c0802ee-cd63-73b2-953f-a1d47901bd63@technologists.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>
 <20191106000600.GD26959@mit.edu>
 <479EA77E-E0A7-4B27-AEBB-42948309C03E@technologists.com>
 <CACytpF87sSza+jiOrurX_H39p6jgwCW92oY1Twgy_qoPYB2p2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2c0802ee-cd63-73b2-953f-a1d47901bd63@technologists.com>
Message-ID: <0a418324-5311-816d-7e60-1a619c1c0dfd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/6/19 8:51 AM, Charles H Sauer wrote:
> I think there is more recent AIX on SIMH 

I know someone who has booted and run AIX 7.<something> under SimH.  I 
don't know how different the emulation SimH is doing to allow that to 
run vs an RS/6000.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Fri Nov  8 14:39:57 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 04:39:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <0a418324-5311-816d-7e60-1a619c1c0dfd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <0a418324-5311-816d-7e60-1a619c1c0dfd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.b339745b-80ae-4823-a21e-62b256803c91@mail.outlook.com>

Aix is kind of running on Qemu...  I've run 4.12 although the networking wasn't running, but enough to uuencode stuff through the console. 




Get Outlook for Android







On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 7:41 AM +0900, "Grant Taylor via TUHS" <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> wrote:










On 11/6/19 8:51 AM, Charles H Sauer wrote:
> I think there is more recent AIX on SIMH 

I know someone who has booted and run AIX 7. under SimH.  I 
don't know how different the emulation SimH is doing to allow that to 
run vs an RS/6000.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die






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From cym224 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 10 03:20:05 2019
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 12:20:05 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX or unix
Message-ID: <2ce9495a-b877-91be-ff5b-5516b8269562@gmail.com>

I was reading the comments on Hackaday on UNIX at 50 
(https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/). 
As expected, a lot of manure but some interesting comments from 
seemingly knowledgeable people.

One comment 
(https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/#comment-6192977), 
from a DDS, stated that (s)he worked at The Bell and they wrote it 
"unix" (lower-case) to distinguish it from MULTICS.  Anyone care to 
comment on this?

N.

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Nov 10 05:39:32 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sat,  9 Nov 2019 14:39:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX or unix
Message-ID: <20191109193932.2448E18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Nemo Nusquam

    > One comment .. stated that (s)he worked at The Bell and they wrote it
    > "unix" (lower-case) to distinguish it from MULTICS. Anyone care to
    > comment on this?

All the original Multics hardcopy documentation I have (both from GE and MIT,
as well as later material from Honeywell) spells it 'Multics'. Conversely, an
original V6 UPM spells it 'UNIX'; I think it switched to 'Unix' around the
time of V7. (I don't know about _really_ early, like on the PDP-7.)

The bit about case to differentiate _might_ be right.

	Noel

From pc.lpz.snchz at gmail.com  Sun Nov 10 05:43:59 2019
From: pc.lpz.snchz at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Paco_L=C3=B3pez?=)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 19:43:59 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX or unix
In-Reply-To: <2ce9495a-b877-91be-ff5b-5516b8269562@gmail.com>
References: <2ce9495a-b877-91be-ff5b-5516b8269562@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG0r6upi+d2QfZOo=pdVVbnf0HVqc2meoZYC5LKX_77FQ1Zg7w@mail.gmail.com>

An excerpt from The Jargon File:

Some people are confused over whether this word is appropriately ‘UNIX’ or
‘Unix’; both forms are common, and used interchangeably. Dennis Ritchie
says that the ‘UNIX’ spelling originally happened in CACM's 1974 paper The
UNIX Time-Sharing System because “we had a new typesetter and troff had
just been invented and we were intoxicated by being able to produce small
caps.” Later, dmr tried to get the spelling changed to ‘Unix’ in a couple
of Bell Labs papers, on the grounds that the word is not acronymic. He
failed, and eventually (his words) “wimped out” on the issue. So, while the
trademark today is ‘UNIX’, both capitalizations are grounded in ancient
usage; the Jargon File uses ‘Unix’ in deference to dmr's wishes.

at: http://catb.org/jargon/html/U/Unix.html

El sáb., 9 nov. 2019 a las 17:28, Nemo Nusquam (<cym224 at gmail.com>)
escribió:

> I was reading the comments on Hackaday on UNIX at 50
> (https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/).
> As expected, a lot of manure but some interesting comments from
> seemingly knowledgeable people.
>
> One comment
> (
> https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/#comment-6192977),
>
> from a DDS, stated that (s)he worked at The Bell and they wrote it
> "unix" (lower-case) to distinguish it from MULTICS.  Anyone care to
> comment on this?
>
> N.
>
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From dwalker at doomd.net  Sun Nov 10 06:36:06 2019
From: dwalker at doomd.net (Derrik Walker v2.0)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 15:36:06 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX or unix
In-Reply-To: <2ce9495a-b877-91be-ff5b-5516b8269562@gmail.com>
References: <2ce9495a-b877-91be-ff5b-5516b8269562@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <af88bb05-eb1b-811b-7329-5a149fd27c4e@doomd.net>

On 11/9/19 12:20 PM, Nemo Nusquam wrote:
> I was reading the comments on Hackaday on UNIX at 50 
> (https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/). 
> As expected, a lot of manure but some interesting comments from 
> seemingly knowledgeable people.
>
> One comment 
> (https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/#comment-6192977), 
> from a DDS, stated that (s)he worked at The Bell and they wrote it 
> "unix" (lower-case) to distinguish it from MULTICS.  Anyone care to 
> comment on this?
>
> N.

It was always my understanding, based totally on hearsay from engineers 
from both Sun and SGI back in my early days with it, UNIX is the OS, 
while unix, or vmunix is the kernel. Unix was deprecated by the time it 
became a real commercial product.

So, right or wrong, I've always used UNIX for the OS, and unix, or 
vmunix as appropriate, to refer to the kernel.

- Derrik

-- 


Derrik Walker v2.0
dwalker at doomd.net
https://www.doomd.net

"Those UNIX guys, they think weird!" -- John C. Dvorak


From mah at mhorton.net  Sun Nov 10 07:05:39 2019
From: mah at mhorton.net (Mary Ann Horton)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 13:05:39 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX or unix
In-Reply-To: <af88bb05-eb1b-811b-7329-5a149fd27c4e@doomd.net>
References: <2ce9495a-b877-91be-ff5b-5516b8269562@gmail.com>
 <af88bb05-eb1b-811b-7329-5a149fd27c4e@doomd.net>
Message-ID: <972b4dbb-e62f-f369-153b-e1892506b72d@mhorton.net>

I just finished Brian Kernighan's book (excellent!) and he addresses 
this in section 7.6. (Yes, he wrote the book in troff.)

He prefers "Unix" and wrote it that way except for this section. He says 
"Bell Labs' legal guardians decided that the name Unix was a valuable 
trademark that had to be protected..." Legal mostly required it to be 
used as an adjective "The UNIX TM operating system", and how the ms 
macros produced a small caps "UNIX" (and a footnote on the first 
reference). He's clear that the 1127 folks hated the requirements from 
legal.

It is true that the file which contains the kernel was /unix, or /vmunix 
for Berkeley Unix, but that's the name of the file, not the proper name 
of the operating system for English prose.  By convention, virtually all 
Unix files were in lower case.

     Mary Ann

On 11/9/19 12:36 PM, Derrik Walker v2.0 wrote:
> On 11/9/19 12:20 PM, Nemo Nusquam wrote:
>> I was reading the comments on Hackaday on UNIX at 50 
>> (https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/). 
>> As expected, a lot of manure but some interesting comments from 
>> seemingly knowledgeable people.
>>
>> One comment 
>> (https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/#comment-6192977), 
>> from a DDS, stated that (s)he worked at The Bell and they wrote it 
>> "unix" (lower-case) to distinguish it from MULTICS.  Anyone care to 
>> comment on this?
>>
>> N.
>
> It was always my understanding, based totally on hearsay from 
> engineers from both Sun and SGI back in my early days with it, UNIX is 
> the OS, while unix, or vmunix is the kernel. Unix was deprecated by 
> the time it became a real commercial product.
>
> So, right or wrong, I've always used UNIX for the OS, and unix, or 
> vmunix as appropriate, to refer to the kernel.
>
> - Derrik
>

From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Nov 10 07:23:04 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:23:04 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX or unix
In-Reply-To: <972b4dbb-e62f-f369-153b-e1892506b72d@mhorton.net>
References: <2ce9495a-b877-91be-ff5b-5516b8269562@gmail.com>
 <af88bb05-eb1b-811b-7329-5a149fd27c4e@doomd.net>
 <972b4dbb-e62f-f369-153b-e1892506b72d@mhorton.net>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NZcyH0zwK0t9193_mtWO2i-4-8hgNj9KOrvmvKcNv7Jg@mail.gmail.com>

In fact ATT legal had a document they sent to all commercial licensees
around 1980 on proper use of the name.  I wonder if I still have/can find a
copy.  But the lawyers were pretty clear. It was UNIX with ™ and later the
R with a circle around beside the all caps letters after they registered
it.

It was that letter that started all the names like Xenix, Ultrix, HP-UX,
SunOS, RTU etc.

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 4:06 PM Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net> wrote:

> I just finished Brian Kernighan's book (excellent!) and he addresses
> this in section 7.6. (Yes, he wrote the book in troff.)
>
> He prefers "Unix" and wrote it that way except for this section. He says
> "Bell Labs' legal guardians decided that the name Unix was a valuable
> trademark that had to be protected..." Legal mostly required it to be
> used as an adjective "The UNIX TM operating system", and how the ms
> macros produced a small caps "UNIX" (and a footnote on the first
> reference). He's clear that the 1127 folks hated the requirements from
> legal.
>
> It is true that the file which contains the kernel was /unix, or /vmunix
> for Berkeley Unix, but that's the name of the file, not the proper name
> of the operating system for English prose.  By convention, virtually all
> Unix files were in lower case.
>
>      Mary Ann
>
> On 11/9/19 12:36 PM, Derrik Walker v2.0 wrote:
> > On 11/9/19 12:20 PM, Nemo Nusquam wrote:
> >> I was reading the comments on Hackaday on UNIX at 50
> >> (https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/).
> >> As expected, a lot of manure but some interesting comments from
> >> seemingly knowledgeable people.
> >>
> >> One comment
> >> (
> https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/#comment-6192977),
>
> >> from a DDS, stated that (s)he worked at The Bell and they wrote it
> >> "unix" (lower-case) to distinguish it from MULTICS.  Anyone care to
> >> comment on this?
> >>
> >> N.
> >
> > It was always my understanding, based totally on hearsay from
> > engineers from both Sun and SGI back in my early days with it, UNIX is
> > the OS, while unix, or vmunix is the kernel. Unix was deprecated by
> > the time it became a real commercial product.
> >
> > So, right or wrong, I've always used UNIX for the OS, and unix, or
> > vmunix as appropriate, to refer to the kernel.
> >
> > - Derrik
> >
>
-- 
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
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From scj at yaccman.com  Sun Nov 10 10:07:05 2019
From: scj at yaccman.com (Steve Johnson)
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2019 16:07:05 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX or unix
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NZcyH0zwK0t9193_mtWO2i-4-8hgNj9KOrvmvKcNv7Jg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd12696689734189ef3ab82609f441db99b2c3ab@webmail.yaccman.com>


I remember a story I heard second hand.   The Bell System had so
many acronyms that they published  yearly a small book with all the
acronyms in the Bell System.   Somebody (Ken?, Doug?) got a call one
year that they wanted to include UNIX in the book, so would we please
tell them what UNIX stood for.   The reply was that UNIX was not an
acronym.  So the caller said: "OK.  We won't put it in the book..."

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Clem Cole" <clemc at ccc.com>
To:"Mary Ann Horton" <mah at mhorton.net>
Cc:<tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent:Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:23:04 -0500
Subject:Re: [TUHS] UNIX or unix

In fact ATT legal had a document they sent to all commercial licensees
around 1980 on proper use of the name.  I wonder if I still have/can
find a copy.  But the lawyers were pretty clear. It was UNIX with ™
and later the R with a circle around beside the all caps letters after
they registered it.  

It was that letter that started all the names like Xenix, Ultrix,
HP-UX, SunOS, RTU etc.   

On Sat, Nov 9, 2019 at 4:06 PM Mary Ann Horton <mah at mhorton.net [1]>
wrote:
I just finished Brian Kernighan's book (excellent!) and he addresses 
 this in section 7.6. (Yes, he wrote the book in troff.)

 He prefers "Unix" and wrote it that way except for this section. He
says 
 "Bell Labs' legal guardians decided that the name Unix was a valuable

 trademark that had to be protected..." Legal mostly required it to be

 used as an adjective "The UNIX TM operating system", and how the ms 
 macros produced a small caps "UNIX" (and a footnote on the first 
 reference). He's clear that the 1127 folks hated the requirements
from 
 legal.

 It is true that the file which contains the kernel was /unix, or
/vmunix 
 for Berkeley Unix, but that's the name of the file, not the proper
name 
 of the operating system for English prose.  By convention, virtually
all 
 Unix files were in lower case.

      Mary Ann

 On 11/9/19 12:36 PM, Derrik Walker v2.0 wrote:
 > On 11/9/19 12:20 PM, Nemo Nusquam wrote:
 >> I was reading the comments on Hackaday on UNIX at 50 
 >>
(https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/
[2]). 
 >> As expected, a lot of manure but some interesting comments from 
 >> seemingly knowledgeable people.
 >>
 >> One comment 
 >>
(https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/#comment-6192977
[3]), 
 >> from a DDS, stated that (s)he worked at The Bell and they wrote it

 >> "unix" (lower-case) to distinguish it from MULTICS.  Anyone care
to 
 >> comment on this?
 >>
 >> N.
 >
 > It was always my understanding, based totally on hearsay from 
 > engineers from both Sun and SGI back in my early days with it, UNIX
is 
 > the OS, while unix, or vmunix is the kernel. Unix was deprecated by

 > the time it became a real commercial product.
 >
 > So, right or wrong, I've always used UNIX for the OS, and unix, or 
 > vmunix as appropriate, to refer to the kernel.
 >
 > - Derrik
 >
-- 
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual 

Links:
------
[1] mailto:mah at mhorton.net
[2]
https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/
[3]
https://hackaday.com/2019/11/05/will-the-real-unix-please-stand-up/#comment-6192977

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From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Nov 11 07:24:10 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:24:10 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Unix Programmer's Manual, 3rd edition (1973) (fwd)
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911110823010.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>

Sent to me by someone not on this list; I have no idea whether it's been 
mentioned here before.

-- Dave

---------- Forwarded message ----------
To: Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org>
Subject: Unix Programmer's Manual, 3rd edition (1973)

Hi Dave,

Some nostalgic soul has shared a PDF on the interwebz:

> MIT CSAIL (@MIT_CSAIL) tweeted at 3:12 am on Mon, Nov 04, 2019:
> #otd in 1971 Bell Labs released the first Unix Programmers Manual.
>
> Download the free PDF here: https://t.co/BYh3dAhaJU

I wonder what became of the first and second editions?



From michael at kjorling.se  Mon Nov 11 17:15:28 2019
From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 07:15:28 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Unix Programmer's Manual, 3rd edition (1973) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911110823010.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911110823010.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <47vjsxs4fpgjwggtbkfh99pc@localhost>

On 11 Nov 2019 08:24 +1100, from dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall):
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> To: Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org>
> Subject: Unix Programmer's Manual, 3rd edition (1973)
> 
>> Download the free PDF here: https://t.co/BYh3dAhaJU

For posterity, that eventually redirects to
https://dspinellis.github.io/unix-v3man/v3man.pdf

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
  “The most dangerous thought that you can have as a creative person
              is to think you know what you’re doing.” (Bret Victor)


From iain at csp-partnership.co.uk  Mon Nov 11 18:07:11 2019
From: iain at csp-partnership.co.uk (Dr Iain Maoileoin)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 08:07:11 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX or unix
In-Reply-To: <dd12696689734189ef3ab82609f441db99b2c3ab@webmail.yaccman.com>
References: <dd12696689734189ef3ab82609f441db99b2c3ab@webmail.yaccman.com>
Message-ID: <9893DFE0-5D7A-4733-846D-23C0106B2DBA@csp-partnership.co.uk>


> On 10 Nov 2019, at 00:07, Steve Johnson <scj at yaccman.com> wrote:
> 
> I remember a story I heard second hand.   The Bell System had so many acronyms that they published  yearly a small book with all the acronyms in the Bell System.   Somebody (Ken?, Doug?) got a call one year that they wanted to include UNIX in the book, so would we please tell them what UNIX stood for.   The reply was that UNIX was not an acronym.  So the caller said: "OK.  We won't put it in the book..."
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Clem Cole" <clemc at ccc.com>
> To:"Mary Ann Horton" <mah at mhorton.net>
> Cc:<tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> Sent:Sat, 9 Nov 2019 16:23:04 -0500
> Subject:Re: [TUHS] UNIX or unix
> 
> 
> In fact ATT legal had a document they sent to all commercial licensees around 1980 on proper use of the name.  I wonder if I still have/can find a copy.  But the lawyers were pretty clear. It was UNIX with ™ and later the R with a circle around beside the all caps letters after they registered it.  
I was not just commercial licensees.  I remember seeing a copy of that letter.  We were a Scottish University who had a legit tape sent from AT&T/Bell Labs for academic use.
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From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Nov 12 05:54:25 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 06:54:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Unix Programmer's Manual, 3rd edition (1973) (fwd)
In-Reply-To: <47vjsxs4fpgjwggtbkfh99pc@localhost>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911110823010.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <47vjsxs4fpgjwggtbkfh99pc@localhost>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911120653380.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019, Michael Kjörling wrote:

>>> Download the free PDF here: https://t.co/BYh3dAhaJU
>
> For posterity, that eventually redirects to
> https://dspinellis.github.io/unix-v3man/v3man.pdf

Thanks; I should've noted that.

-- Dave

From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Nov 12 05:58:11 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 06:58:11 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX or unix
In-Reply-To: <9893DFE0-5D7A-4733-846D-23C0106B2DBA@csp-partnership.co.uk>
References: <dd12696689734189ef3ab82609f441db99b2c3ab@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <9893DFE0-5D7A-4733-846D-23C0106B2DBA@csp-partnership.co.uk>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911120655340.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019, Dr Iain Maoileoin wrote:

[ UNIX (tm) (R) ]

> I was not just commercial licensees.  I remember seeing a copy of that
> letter.  We were a Scottish University who had a legit tape sent from
> AT&T/Bell Labs for academic use.

I saw the same thing at the University of New South Wales back when
[Uu][Nn][Ii][Xx] <random symbols> was first released.

-- Dave

From arnold at skeeve.com  Tue Nov 12 07:10:26 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Arnold Robbins)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 23:10:26 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
Message-ID: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>

Hi.

Doug McIlroy is probably the best person to answer this.

Looking at the V3 and V4 manuals, there is a reference to the m6 macro
processor.  The man page thereof refers to

A. D. Hall, The M6 Macroprocessor, Bell Telephone Laboratories, 1969

1. Is this memo available, even in hardcopy that could be scanned?
2. What's the history of m6, was it written in assembler? C?
3. When and why was it replaced with m4 (written by DMR IIRC)?

More generally, what's the history of m6 prior to Unix?

IIRC, the macro processor in Software Tools was inspired by m4,
and in particular its immediate evaluation of its arguments during
definition.

I guess I'll also ask, how widespread was the use of macro processors
in high level languages?  They were big for assembler, and PL/1 had
a macro language, but I don't know of any other contemporary languages
that had them.  Were the general purpose macro processors used a lot?
E.g. with Fortran or Cobol or ...

I'm just curious. :-)

Thanks,

Arnold

From drb at msu.edu  Tue Nov 12 08:18:38 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 17:18:38 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 11 Nov 2019 23:10:26 +0200.)
 <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com> 
Message-ID: <20191111221838.E763B29760E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > Looking at the V3 and V4 manuals, there is a reference to the m6
 > macro processor.  The man page thereof refers to

 > A. D. Hall, The M6 Macroprocessor, Bell Telephone Laboratories, 1969

 > 1. Is this memo available, even in hardcopy that could be scanned?

Amen - the cited document, CSTR #2 seems to be hard to find.

De

From tytso at mit.edu  Tue Nov 12 08:31:29 2019
From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Y. Ts'o)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 17:31:29 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>

On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 11:10:26PM +0200, Arnold Robbins wrote:
> I guess I'll also ask, how widespread was the use of macro processors
> in high level languages?  They were big for assembler, and PL/1 had
> a macro language, but I don't know of any other contemporary languages
> that had them.  Were the general purpose macro processors used a lot?
> E.g. with Fortran or Cobol or ...

Well, there's Ratfor (Rational Fortran), which was implemented as a
preprocessor in front of Fortran.  I don't think it was used a lot,
though....

					- Ted

From michael at kjorling.se  Tue Nov 12 08:37:42 2019
From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 22:37:42 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <zmfxdt49hh4mgmm734wp4gxm@localhost>

On 11 Nov 2019 23:10 +0200, from arnold at skeeve.com (Arnold Robbins):
> Looking at the V3 and V4 manuals, there is a reference to the m6 macro
> processor.  The man page thereof refers to
> 
> A. D. Hall, The M6 Macroprocessor, Bell Telephone Laboratories, 1969
> 
> 2. What's the history of m6, was it written in assembler? C?

If it was from 1969, it can't realistically have been written in C,
which at that time wouldn't be around in any form for another few
years.

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
 “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”


From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Nov 12 08:58:58 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:58:58 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911120954561.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 11:10:26PM +0200, Arnold Robbins wrote:
>> I guess I'll also ask, how widespread was the use of macro processors
>> in high level languages?  They were big for assembler, and PL/1 had
>> a macro language, but I don't know of any other contemporary languages
>> that had them.  Were the general purpose macro processors used a lot?
>> E.g. with Fortran or Cobol or ...

Late trivia: it's PL/I, not PL/1; rumour has it that IBM trademarked them 
all up to PL/C i.e. PL/100...

> Well, there's Ratfor (Rational Fortran), which was implemented as a 
> preprocessor in front of Fortran.  I don't think it was used a lot, 
> though....

I think I used it once, on the principle that I'll try anything once; 
ugh...

-- Dave

From cym224 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 12 10:07:21 2019
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:07:21 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911120954561.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911120954561.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <f3eff4d6-1b19-e115-fa43-473812050d5f@gmail.com>

On 11/11/19 17:58, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Nov 2019, Theodore Y. Ts'o wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 11:10:26PM +0200, Arnold Robbins wrote:
>>> I guess I'll also ask, how widespread was the use of macro processors
>>> in high level languages?  They were big for assembler, and PL/1 had
>>> a macro language, but I don't know of any other contemporary languages
>>> that had them.  Were the general purpose macro processors used a lot?
>>> E.g. with Fortran or Cobol or ...
>
> Late trivia: it's PL/I, not PL/1; rumour has it that IBM trademarked 
> them all up to PL/C i.e. PL/100...

Found nothing on TESS.  Maybe copyright but I am not familiar with 
copyright.

>
>> Well, there's Ratfor (Rational Fortran), which was implemented as a 
>> preprocessor in front of Fortran.  I don't think it was used a lot, 
>> though....
>
> I think I used it once, on the principle that I'll try anything once; 
> ugh...

I worked for a company that wrote everything on ratfor.  #6-)

>
> -- Dave


From clemc at ccc.com  Tue Nov 12 10:30:47 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem cole)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:30:47 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>

Not so fast there my friend.  Ratfor was used a great deal.  For instance The PGI compiler folks wrote a parallel optimizing compiler for the FPS-164 in it.  And FPS used it for there OS.  Plus Apollo wrote all their original utilities in it.   

Sent from my PDP-7 Running UNIX V0 expect things to be almost but not quite. 

> On Nov 11, 2019, at 5:31 PM, Theodore Y. Ts'o <tytso at mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 11:10:26PM +0200, Arnold Robbins wrote:
>> I guess I'll also ask, how widespread was the use of macro processors
>> in high level languages?  They were big for assembler, and PL/1 had
>> a macro language, but I don't know of any other contemporary languages
>> that had them.  Were the general purpose macro processors used a lot?
>> E.g. with Fortran or Cobol or ...
> 
> Well, there's Ratfor (Rational Fortran), which was implemented as a
> preprocessor in front of Fortran.  I don't think it was used a lot,
> though....
> 
>                    - Ted

From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Nov 12 10:39:45 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 11:39:45 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <f3eff4d6-1b19-e115-fa43-473812050d5f@gmail.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911120954561.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <f3eff4d6-1b19-e115-fa43-473812050d5f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911121137020.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 11 Nov 2019, Nemo Nusquam wrote:

>> Late trivia: it's PL/I, not PL/1; rumour has it that IBM trademarked 
>> them all up to PL/C i.e. PL/100...
>
> Found nothing on TESS.  Maybe copyright but I am not familiar with 
> copyright.

Could be copyright; I was told this in the early 70s when I was doing 
Computer Science.  Of course, it could also be apocryphal :-(

> I worked for a company that wrote everything on ratfor.  #6-)

Urk...

-- Dave

From drb at msu.edu  Tue Nov 12 10:42:25 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:42:25 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:30:47 -0500.)
 <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>
References: <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>
 <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com> <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20191112004225.CA53E297745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > Not so fast there my friend.  Ratfor was used a great deal.  For
 > instance The PGI compiler folks wrote a parallel optimizing compiler
 > for the FPS-164 in it.  And FPS used it for there OS.  Plus Apollo
 > wrote all their original utilities in it.

The Software Tools stuff too, including the STVOS stuff Berkeley
managed.  If you pick an old platform and count RATFOR implementations,
all of them seem to have enough of them you can't swing a dead cat.

RATFOR may not be enjoyable in modern terms, but compared to building in
native F66...

De

From scj at yaccman.com  Tue Nov 12 11:09:16 2019
From: scj at yaccman.com (Steve Johnson)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 17:09:16 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>


Doug can certainly give you more information, but very early in my
career at Bell Labs I saw an internal memo, by (I think) Doug and Bob
Morris, that had a taxonomy of macro systems based on a set of
decisions (things like can you define a macro inside a macro, rescan
expanded macros looking for macro definitions and uses, etc.)   I
seem to recall there were close to a thousand different macro systems
possible.  It was a brilliant paper, but I don't think it was ever
published.  The Assembler for the IBM 7094 had an amazing macro
facility -- I recall that someone wrote a Lisp compiler entirely in
macros, and it would regularly recurse several hundred levels deep
while generating code.  Someone told me once that Bob Morris invented
macros -- I can't vouch for this.   Doug?

Steve

----- Original Message -----
From: "Arnold Robbins" <arnold at skeeve.com>
To:<tuhs at tuhs.org>
Cc:
Sent:Mon, 11 Nov 2019 23:10:26 +0200
Subject:[TUHS] History of m6?

 Hi.

 Doug McIlroy is probably the best person to answer this.

 Looking at the V3 and V4 manuals, there is a reference to the m6
macro
 processor. The man page thereof refers to

 A. D. Hall, The M6 Macroprocessor, Bell Telephone Laboratories, 1969

 1. Is this memo available, even in hardcopy that could be scanned?
 2. What's the history of m6, was it written in assembler? C?
 3. When and why was it replaced with m4 (written by DMR IIRC)?

 More generally, what's the history of m6 prior to Unix?

 IIRC, the macro processor in Software Tools was inspired by m4,
 and in particular its immediate evaluation of its arguments during
 definition.

 I guess I'll also ask, how widespread was the use of macro processors
 in high level languages? They were big for assembler, and PL/1 had
 a macro language, but I don't know of any other contemporary
languages
 that had them. Were the general purpose macro processors used a lot?
 E.g. with Fortran or Cobol or ...

 I'm just curious. :-)

 Thanks,

 Arnold


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From clemc at ccc.com  Wed Nov 13 01:07:19 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 10:07:19 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 8:27 PM Steve Johnson <scj at yaccman.com> wrote:

>  I recall that someone wrote a Lisp compiler entirely in macros, and it
> would regularly recurse several hundred levels deep while generating code.
>
T'was before my time, but the legend has it that the original BLISS-10
bootstrap compiler was a set of TECO macros that Chuck Geschke (Adobe's
founder) wrote.
ᐧ
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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Wed Nov 13 01:15:41 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 10:15:41 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
Message-ID: <201911121515.xACFFf0V095921@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>


M6 originated as a porting tool for the Fortran source code
for Stan Brown's Altran language for algebraic computation. M6
itself was originally written in highly portable Fortran.

Arnold asked, "How widespread was the use of macro processors
in high level languages?  They were big for assembler, and
PL/1 had a macro language, but I don't know of any other
contemporary languages that had them."

Understanding "contemporary" to mean pre-C, I agree. Cpp,
a particularly trivial macroprocessor, has been heavily used
ever since--even for other languages, e.g. Haskell.

The rumor that Bob Morris invented macros is off the
mark. Macros were in regular use by the time he joined Bell
Labs. He did conceive an interesting "form-letter generator",
called "form", and an accompanying editor "fed". A sort of
cross between macros and Vannevar Bush's hypothetical memex
repository, these were among the earliest Unix programs and
appeared in the manual from v1 through v6.

Off-topic warning: pre-Unix stories follow.

Contrary to an assertion on cat-v.org, I did not invent macros
either.  In 1959 Doug Eastwood and I, at the suggestion of
George Mealy, created the macro facility for SAP (SHARE assmbly
program) for the IBM 704. However, the idea was in the air at
the time. In particular, we knew that GE already had macros,
though we knew no details about their syntax or semantics.

There were various attempts in the 1960s to build languages by
macro extension. The approach turned out to entail considerable
social cost: communication barriers arise when everyone
can easily create his own dialect. A case in point: I once
had a bright young mathematician summer employee who wrote
wonderfully concise code by heaping up macro definitions. The
result was inscrutable.

Macros caught on in a big way in the ESS labs at Indian Hill.
With a macro-defined switching language, code builds were
slow. One manager there boasted that his lab made more
thoroughgoing use of computers than other departments and
cited enormous consumption of machine time as evidence.

Steve Johnson recalls corrrectly that there was a set of macros
that turned the assembler into a Lisp compiler. I wrote it
and used it for a theorem-proving project spurred by Martin
Davis. (The project was blown away when Robinson published
the resolution princple.) The compiler did some cute local
optimization, taking account of facts such as Bob Morris's
astute observation that the 704 instruction TNZ (transfer on
nonzero) sets the accumulator to zero.

Doug

From leah at vuxu.org  Wed Nov 13 02:01:51 2019
From: leah at vuxu.org (Leah Neukirchen)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 17:01:51 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <20191111221838.E763B29760E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> (Dennis Boone's
 message of "Mon, 11 Nov 2019 17:18:38 -0500")
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111221838.E763B29760E@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <87woc513tc.fsf@vuxu.org>

Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> writes:

>  > Looking at the V3 and V4 manuals, there is a reference to the m6
>  > macro processor.  The man page thereof refers to
>
>  > A. D. Hall, The M6 Macroprocessor, Bell Telephone Laboratories, 1969
>
>  > 1. Is this memo available, even in hardcopy that could be scanned?
>
> Amen - the cited document, CSTR #2 seems to be hard to find.

Indeed, it took a bit to find:

https://plan9.io/cm/cs/cstr/2.pdf

(Also it's not on archive.org for the original bell-labs.com domain;
it would be nice to have it officially archived.)

Best,
-- 
Leah Neukirchen  <leah at vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/

From norman at oclsc.org  Wed Nov 13 06:56:15 2019
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:56:15 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
Message-ID: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

I think I recall an explicit statement somewhere from an
interview with Robert that the worm was inspired partly
by Shockwave Rider.

I confess my immediate reaction to the worm was uncontrollable
laughter.  I was out of town when it happened, so I first
heard it from a newspaper article (and wasn't caught up in
fighting it or I'd have laughed a lot less, of course); and
it seemed to me hilarious when I read that Robert was behind
it.  He had interned with 1127 for a few summers while I was
there, so I knew him as very bright but often a bit careless
about details; that seemed an exact match for the worm.

My longer-term reaction was to completely drop my sloppy
old habit (common in those days not just in my code but in
that of many others) of ignoring possible buffer overflows.
I find it mind-boggling that people still make that mistake;
it has been literal decades since the lesson was rubbed in
our community's collective noses.  I am very disappointed
that programming education seems not to care enough about
this sort of thing, even today.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Nov 13 08:00:26 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:00:26 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911130822290.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 12 Nov 2019, Norman Wilson wrote:

> I think I recall an explicit statement somewhere from an interview with 
> Robert that the worm was inspired partly by Shockwave Rider.

Yes, I noticed the similarity too.

> I confess my immediate reaction to the worm was uncontrollable laughter. 
> I was out of town when it happened, so I first heard it from a newspaper 
> article (and wasn't caught up in fighting it or I'd have laughed a lot 
> less, of course); and it seemed to me hilarious when I read that Robert 
> was behind it.  He had interned with 1127 for a few summers while I was 
> there, so I knew him as very bright but often a bit careless about 
> details; that seemed an exact match for the worm.

That was the trouble; had he bothered to test it on a private network (as 
if a true professional would even consider carrying out such an act)[*] he 
would've noticed that his probability calculations were arse-backwards, 
and so spread much faster than it "should" have.

> My longer-term reaction was to completely drop my sloppy old habit 
> (common in those days not just in my code but in that of many others) of 
> ignoring possible buffer overflows. I find it mind-boggling that people 
> still make that mistake; it has been literal decades since the lesson 
> was rubbed in our community's collective noses.  I am very disappointed 
> that programming education seems not to care enough about this sort of 
> thing, even today.

Yep.  Don't use fixed-length buffers unless you *know* that it will
not overflow (i.e. the data is under your control), and don't trust
user input (especially if the reader is an interpreter with the
possibility of spawning a shell); there are of course others.

This is what you get when people call themselves programmers because
they once took a course in programming or read a book; that's like
calling oneself a doctor because you took a first-aid course...

One of my favourite examples is "Barbie the Computer Engineer" (grep the 
net for it, but warning: the title contains a naughty word).

Oh, OK; here's a sanitised URL:

    http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/11/barbie-fks-it-up-again/

Yes, that really is the URL; I've just tested it (but contents may offend
some viewers; you have been warned).

[*]
And for those who slagged me off for calling him an idiot, try this quick 
quiz: on a scale from utter moron to sheer genius, what do you call 
someone who deliberately releases untested software designed to compromise 
machines that are not under his administrative control in order to make 
some sort of a point?  I don't know about other countries, but try that in 
Australia and you'd be seriously out of pocket and/or doing porridge.

-- Dave (BSc, majoring in Computer Science and Mathematics)

From bakul at bitblocks.com  Wed Nov 13 08:10:46 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 14:10:46 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re:  Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:56:15 -0500."
 <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>

On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:56:15 -0500 Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
>
> My longer-term reaction was to completely drop my sloppy
> old habit (common in those days not just in my code but in
> that of many others) of ignoring possible buffer overflows.
> I find it mind-boggling that people still make that mistake;
> it has been literal decades since the lesson was rubbed in
> our community's collective noses.  I am very disappointed
> that programming education seems not to care enough about
> this sort of thing, even today.

Unfortunately strcpy & other buffer overflow friendly
functions are still present in the C standard (I am looking at
n2434.pdf, draft of Sept 25, 2019). Is C really not fixable?

From lm at mcvoy.com  Wed Nov 13 08:14:18 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 14:14:18 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re:  Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <20191112221418.GJ16268@mcvoy.com>

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 02:10:46PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:56:15 -0500 Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
> >
> > My longer-term reaction was to completely drop my sloppy
> > old habit (common in those days not just in my code but in
> > that of many others) of ignoring possible buffer overflows.
> > I find it mind-boggling that people still make that mistake;
> > it has been literal decades since the lesson was rubbed in
> > our community's collective noses.  I am very disappointed
> > that programming education seems not to care enough about
> > this sort of thing, even today.
> 
> Unfortunately strcpy & other buffer overflow friendly
> functions are still present in the C standard (I am looking at
> n2434.pdf, draft of Sept 25, 2019). Is C really not fixable?

Someone needs to do Strcpy() etc that have the length in the 
first bytes[s] of the string.
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From norman at oclsc.org  Wed Nov 13 08:24:10 2019
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 17:24:10 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
Message-ID: <1573597454.7239.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

Dave Horsfall:

  And for those who slagged me off for calling him an idiot, try this quick 
  quiz: on a scale from utter moron to sheer genius, what do you call 
  someone who deliberately releases untested software designed to compromise 
  machines that are not under his administrative control in order to make 
  some sort of a point?

=====

I'd call that careless and irresponsible.  Calling it stupid or
idiotic is, well, a stupid, idiotic simplification that succeeds
in being nasty without showing any understanding of the real problem.

Carelessness and irresponsibility are characteristic of people
in their late teens and early 20s, i.e. Robert's age at the time.
Many of us are overly impressed with our own brilliance at that
age, and even when we take some care (as I think Robert did) we
don't always take enough (as he certainly didn't).

Anyone who claims not to have been at least a bit irresponsible
and careless when young is, in my opinion, not being honest.  Some
of my former colleagues at Bell Labs weren't always as careful and
responsible as they should be, even to the point of causing harm
to others.  But to their credit, when they screwed up that way they
owned up to having done so, tried to make amends, and tried to do
better in future, just as Robert did.  It was just Robert's bad
luck that he screwed up in such a public way and did harm to so
many people.

I save my scorn for those who are long past that age and still
behave irresponsibly and harmfully, like certain high politicians
and certain high-tech executives.

Probably future discussion of this should move to COFF unless it
relates directly to the culture and doings in 1127 or other historic
UNIX places.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From norman at oclsc.org  Wed Nov 13 08:39:15 2019
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 17:39:15 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re:  Happy birthday Morris worm
Message-ID: <1573598358.7551.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

Bakul Shah:

  Unfortunately strcpy & other buffer overflow friendly
  functions are still present in the C standard (I am looking at
  n2434.pdf, draft of Sept 25, 2019). Is C really not fixable?

====

If you mean `can C be made proof against careless programmers,'
no.  You could try but the result wouldn't be C.  And Flon's
Dictum applies anyway, as always.

It's perfectly possible to program in C without overflowing
fixed buffers, just as it's perfectly possible to program in
C without dereferencing a NULL or garbage pointer.  I don't
claim to be perfect, but before the rtm worm rubbed my nose
in such problems, I was often sloppy about them, and afterward
I was very much aware of them and paid attention.

That's all I ask: we need to pay attention.  It's not about
tools, it's about brains and craftmanship and caring more
about quality than about feature count or shiny surfaces
or pushing the product out the door.

Which is a good bit of what was attractive about UNIX in
the first place--that both its ideas and its implementation
were straightforward and comprehensible and made with some
care.  (Never mind that it wasn't perfect either.)

Too bad software in general and UNIX descendants in particular
seem to have left all that behind.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

PS: if you find this depressing, cheer yourself up by watching
the LCM video showing off UNICS on the PDP-7.  I just did, and
it did.

From fuz at fuz.su  Wed Nov 13 08:41:51 2019
From: fuz at fuz.su (Robert Clausecker)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 23:41:51 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re:  Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <20191112221418.GJ16268@mcvoy.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <20191112221418.GJ16268@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <20191112224151.GA36336@fuz.su>

Oh please no.  One of the things we've hopefully all learned from Pascal
is that length-prefixed strings suck because you can't perform anything
useful without copying the entire string.  Rob Pike and friends showed
how to get strings and vectors right in the Go language where you have a
builtin slice type which is essentially a structure

    struct slice(type) {
            type *data;
            size_t len, cap;
    };

where data points to a buffer, len is the length of meaningful data in
that buffer and cap is the total buffer size.  This allows the language
to take subslices and to append to existing slices without requiring
copies in most cases.  If a copy is necessary, the runtime can allocate
a slightly larger buffer in advance to allow for appending in amortised
linear time.

Overall, much more versatile than Pascal strings.

But let's get back to the topic, after all I promised not to flame as
much as Jörg did.

Yours,
Robert Clausecker

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 02:14:18PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 02:10:46PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote:
> > On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:56:15 -0500 Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > My longer-term reaction was to completely drop my sloppy
> > > old habit (common in those days not just in my code but in
> > > that of many others) of ignoring possible buffer overflows.
> > > I find it mind-boggling that people still make that mistake;
> > > it has been literal decades since the lesson was rubbed in
> > > our community's collective noses.  I am very disappointed
> > > that programming education seems not to care enough about
> > > this sort of thing, even today.
> > 
> > Unfortunately strcpy & other buffer overflow friendly
> > functions are still present in the C standard (I am looking at
> > n2434.pdf, draft of Sept 25, 2019). Is C really not fixable?
> 
> Someone needs to do Strcpy() etc that have the length in the 
> first bytes[s] of the string.
> -- 
> ---
> Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

-- 
()  ascii ribbon campaign - for an 8-bit clean world 
/\  - against html email  - against proprietary attachments

From krewat at kilonet.net  Wed Nov 13 08:49:46 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 17:49:46 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <20191112224151.GA36336@fuz.su>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <20191112221418.GJ16268@mcvoy.com> <20191112224151.GA36336@fuz.su>
Message-ID: <5d8d9933-1213-3f07-02e0-f3ad5c293de4@kilonet.net>



On 11/12/2019 5:41 PM, Robert Clausecker wrote:
> Oh please no.  One of the things we've hopefully all learned from Pascal
> is that length-prefixed strings suck because you can't perform anything
> useful without copying the entire string.  Rob Pike and friends showed
> how to get strings and vectors right in the Go language where you have a
> builtin slice type which is essentially a structure
>
>      struct slice(type) {
>              type *data;
>              size_t len, cap;
>      };

And none of that stops some programmer from doing slice.cap=255 - or is 
it read-only? ;)



From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Nov 13 08:54:35 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:54:35 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re:  Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911130944090.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 12 Nov 2019, Bakul Shah wrote:

> Unfortunately strcpy & other buffer overflow friendly functions are 
> still present in the C standard (I am looking at n2434.pdf, draft of 
> Sept 25, 2019). Is C really not fixable?

No; POSIX requires all sorts of broken functions be present, otherwise it 
is not compliant; heck, last I looked it even requires gets().  And let's 
not even mention pointers...  We are our own worst enemy.[*]

All is not lost, though; use strncpy() instead of strcpy() etc.  These 
days my first choice is Perl, despite it being bloated (I only use C if 
it's trivial or I need the speed).  I must look at Ruby, though...

[*]
Of if you were a Pogo fan, "We have met the enemy, and he is us".

-- Dave

From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed Nov 13 09:22:44 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 16:22:44 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911130944090.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911130944090.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrnOfxV-TP09Ye15FVLKuZAAudEd=FQ-iULgE1js4ra4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 3:54 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 12 Nov 2019, Bakul Shah wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately strcpy & other buffer overflow friendly functions are
> > still present in the C standard (I am looking at n2434.pdf, draft of
> > Sept 25, 2019). Is C really not fixable?
>
> No; POSIX requires all sorts of broken functions be present, otherwise it
> is not compliant; heck, last I looked it even requires gets().  And let's
> not even mention pointers...  We are our own worst enemy.[*]
>

POSIX can't even recognize that leap seconds exist :(


> All is not lost, though; use strncpy() instead of strcpy() etc.  These
> days my first choice is Perl, despite it being bloated (I only use C if
> it's trivial or I need the speed).  I must look at Ruby, though...
>

strncpy has two issues. First, it doesn't guarantee NUL termination.
Second, it always writes N bytes. It's for a fixed width data field, not a
variable length string whose buffer size is known. strlcpy is much better,
but still has some issues...

Warner
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From krewat at kilonet.net  Wed Nov 13 09:27:02 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:27:02 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrnOfxV-TP09Ye15FVLKuZAAudEd=FQ-iULgE1js4ra4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911130944090.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfrnOfxV-TP09Ye15FVLKuZAAudEd=FQ-iULgE1js4ra4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <924b516f-6c52-fcce-f004-5f4faaf445c7@kilonet.net>


On 11/12/2019 6:22 PM, Warner Losh wrote:
> strncpy has two issues. First, it doesn't guarantee NUL termination. 
> Second, it always writes N bytes. It's for a fixed width data field, 
> not a variable length string whose buffer size is known. strlcpy is 
> much better, but still has some issues...
Maybe he meant strcpy_s()

From jon at fourwinds.com  Wed Nov 13 09:45:23 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:45:23 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <20191112224151.GA36336@fuz.su>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <20191112221418.GJ16268@mcvoy.com> <20191112224151.GA36336@fuz.su>
Message-ID: <201911122345.xACNjOhg571685@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

Robert Clausecker writes:
> Oh please no.  One of the things we've hopefully all learned from Pascal
> is that length-prefixed strings suck because you can't perform anything
> useful without copying the entire string.  Rob Pike and friends showed
> how to get strings and vectors right in the Go language where you have a
> builtin slice type which is essentially a structure
>
>     struct slice(type) {
>             type *data;
>             size_t len, cap;
>     };
>
> where data points to a buffer, len is the length of meaningful data in
> that buffer and cap is the total buffer size.  This allows the language
> to take subslices and to append to existing slices without requiring
> copies in most cases.  If a copy is necessary, the runtime can allocate
> a slightly larger buffer in advance to allow for appending in amortised
> linear time.
>
> Overall, much more versatile than Pascal strings.
>
> But let's get back to the topic, after all I promised not to flame as
> much as J�rg did.
>
> Yours,
> Robert Clausecker
>
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 02:14:18PM -0800, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 02:10:46PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote:
> > > On Tue, 12 Nov 2019 15:56:15 -0500 Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My longer-term reaction was to completely drop my sloppy
> > > > old habit (common in those days not just in my code but in
> > > > that of many others) of ignoring possible buffer overflows.
> > > > I find it mind-boggling that people still make that mistake;
> > > > it has been literal decades since the lesson was rubbed in
> > > > our community's collective noses.  I am very disappointed
> > > > that programming education seems not to care enough about
> > > > this sort of thing, even today.
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately strcpy & other buffer overflow friendly
> > > functions are still present in the C standard (I am looking at
> > > n2434.pdf, draft of Sept 25, 2019). Is C really not fixable?
> > 
> > Someone needs to do Strcpy() etc that have the length in the 
> > first bytes[s] of the string.
> > -- 
> > ---
> > Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

OK, been biting my tongue here.  I, for one, appreciate the fact that
it's still legal to purchase and use power tools.  I like being able
to use my chainsaw to cut up a tree without having to measure it first.
And I don't have a variety of tree here that contains its length at the
base.  Sure, things can go wrong; I have a scar on one leg to prove it.
But that just shows that I need to be more careful, not that I need to
try logging with a safety razor.

C strings were great at the time, and are still great, especially in
very small systems.  Go may be nicer in larger systems but I probably
wouldn't want the overhead in a small embedded system.  The length at
the start of a string has its issues too; do you want to consume 8
bytes at the start of each string on a 64-bit machine, or have strings
that can support different lengths and have to deal with converting
between them?

Programming isn't a good place for careless people.  I recognize that
what passes for "software technology" these days is coming up with
mechanisms that minimize the damage that can be done by unskilled
people.  But it's never gonna work.  Sure, you can replace pointer
problems with reference problems and so on, but that doesn't really
solve anything.

So let's not rehash our favorite arguments about strings until Warren
shuts down the discussion.  Use that energy to get out there and teach
people to be better and more careful programmers.

Jon

From lm at mcvoy.com  Wed Nov 13 10:24:35 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 16:24:35 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re:  Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <20191112224151.GA36336@fuz.su>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <20191112221418.GJ16268@mcvoy.com> <20191112224151.GA36336@fuz.su>
Message-ID: <20191113002435.GK16268@mcvoy.com>

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 11:41:51PM +0100, Robert Clausecker wrote:
> Oh please no.  One of the things we've hopefully all learned from Pascal
> is that length-prefixed strings suck because you can't perform anything
> useful without copying the entire string.  Rob Pike and friends showed
> how to get strings and vectors right in the Go language where you have a
> builtin slice type which is essentially a structure
> 
>     struct slice(type) {
>             type *data;
>             size_t len, cap;
>     };
> 
> where data points to a buffer, len is the length of meaningful data in
> that buffer and cap is the total buffer size.  

We did something similar in BitKeeper but we added a spicy little twist.
We encoded len and cap in one word by making cap increase in powers of
2 only (which means you need log(n) bits for cap).  So it was a data
structure that scaled both up and down.

We used it everywhere in BitKeeper, it was super handy.

http://repos.bkbits.net/bk/dev/src/libc/utils/lines.c?PAGE=anno&REV=56cf7e34BTkDFx47E54DPNG51B2uCA

From wkt at tuhs.org  Wed Nov 13 10:38:00 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:38:00 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <201911122345.xACNjOhg571685@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <20191112221418.GJ16268@mcvoy.com> <20191112224151.GA36336@fuz.su>
 <201911122345.xACNjOhg571685@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <20191113003800.GA10747@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 03:45:23PM -0800, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> So let's not rehash our favorite arguments about strings until Warren
> shuts down the discussion.  Use that energy to get out there and teach
> people to be better and more careful programmers.

I agree on both points, and it's a good time to ask for discussion on
strings and worms to be moved over to the COFF list!

Thanks, Warren

From krewat at kilonet.net  Wed Nov 13 11:09:51 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:09:51 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <201911122345.xACNjOhg571685@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <20191112221418.GJ16268@mcvoy.com> <20191112224151.GA36336@fuz.su>
 <201911122345.xACNjOhg571685@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <51f003be-16b9-fa02-75d4-cb156b52128c@kilonet.net>

On 11/12/2019 6:45 PM, Jon Steinhart wrote:
> Use that energy to get out there and teach
> people to be better and more careful programmers.

If I was religious, you'd get an "Amen, brother!".

But since I'm not, a simple "exactly" will suffice ;)

ak

From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Wed Nov 13 11:43:30 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 20:43:30 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <1573598358.7551.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1573598358.7551.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp9VQg3xu425oxWvOotYcOSACtoWC2Ev-0XoejKC6fzGNg@mail.gmail.com>

Lorinda Cherry told me that that RTM (senior) used to test people's
programs by feeding them to themselves as input, a.out < a.out. It helped
cure people of the assumption that a program would only see "reasonable"
inputs.

On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 5:40 PM Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:

> Bakul Shah:
>
>   Unfortunately strcpy & other buffer overflow friendly
>   functions are still present in the C standard (I am looking at
>   n2434.pdf, draft of Sept 25, 2019). Is C really not fixable?
>
> ====
>
> If you mean `can C be made proof against careless programmers,'
> no.  You could try but the result wouldn't be C.  And Flon's
> Dictum applies anyway, as always.
>
> It's perfectly possible to program in C without overflowing
> fixed buffers, just as it's perfectly possible to program in
> C without dereferencing a NULL or garbage pointer.  I don't
> claim to be perfect, but before the rtm worm rubbed my nose
> in such problems, I was often sloppy about them, and afterward
> I was very much aware of them and paid attention.
>
> That's all I ask: we need to pay attention.  It's not about
> tools, it's about brains and craftmanship and caring more
> about quality than about feature count or shiny surfaces
> or pushing the product out the door.
>
> Which is a good bit of what was attractive about UNIX in
> the first place--that both its ideas and its implementation
> were straightforward and comprehensible and made with some
> care.  (Never mind that it wasn't perfect either.)
>
> Too bad software in general and UNIX descendants in particular
> seem to have left all that behind.
>
> Norman Wilson
> Toronto ON
>
> PS: if you find this depressing, cheer yourself up by watching
> the LCM video showing off UNICS on the PDP-7.  I just did, and
> it did.
>
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From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Nov 13 17:35:26 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 00:35:26 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org>

Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:

> I am very disappointed that programming education seems not to care
> enough about this sort of thing, even today.

I think this is the key. Universities focus (too much?) on the theory
and not enough on the practice, and "learn how to program" courses
and books focus on the mechanics (syntax, semantics) and not enough
(or at all) on the practicum of writing code well.

We continue to rely on the school of hard knocks, and we continue
to pay for this reliance.

I also think there's a sliding scale. The fancier or higher-end
the university, the more the focus on theory, and vice versa. Sigh.

Arnold


From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Nov 13 17:38:40 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 00:38:40 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <201911121515.xACFFf0V095921@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201911121515.xACFFf0V095921@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <201911130738.xAD7ceUS014587@freefriends.org>

Thanks Doug!

So Unix m6 was a port of the Fortran version, it sounds like.

Q1. When and why was it dropped from Unix? When and why did m4
enter the picture?

Q2. What's the history of Fortran on Unix?  Clearly there was a
lot of Fortran going on in 1127 (cf. BWK's book, ratfor,
software tools ...)  Who wrote the first Unix fortran compiler?

Much thanks,

Arnold

Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

>
> M6 originated as a porting tool for the Fortran source code
> for Stan Brown's Altran language for algebraic computation. M6
> itself was originally written in highly portable Fortran.
>
> Arnold asked, "How widespread was the use of macro processors
> in high level languages?  They were big for assembler, and
> PL/1 had a macro language, but I don't know of any other
> contemporary languages that had them."
>
> Understanding "contemporary" to mean pre-C, I agree. Cpp,
> a particularly trivial macroprocessor, has been heavily used
> ever since--even for other languages, e.g. Haskell.
>
> The rumor that Bob Morris invented macros is off the
> mark. Macros were in regular use by the time he joined Bell
> Labs. He did conceive an interesting "form-letter generator",
> called "form", and an accompanying editor "fed". A sort of
> cross between macros and Vannevar Bush's hypothetical memex
> repository, these were among the earliest Unix programs and
> appeared in the manual from v1 through v6.
>
> Off-topic warning: pre-Unix stories follow.
>
> Contrary to an assertion on cat-v.org, I did not invent macros
> either.  In 1959 Doug Eastwood and I, at the suggestion of
> George Mealy, created the macro facility for SAP (SHARE assmbly
> program) for the IBM 704. However, the idea was in the air at
> the time. In particular, we knew that GE already had macros,
> though we knew no details about their syntax or semantics.
>
> There were various attempts in the 1960s to build languages by
> macro extension. The approach turned out to entail considerable
> social cost: communication barriers arise when everyone
> can easily create his own dialect. A case in point: I once
> had a bright young mathematician summer employee who wrote
> wonderfully concise code by heaping up macro definitions. The
> result was inscrutable.
>
> Macros caught on in a big way in the ESS labs at Indian Hill.
> With a macro-defined switching language, code builds were
> slow. One manager there boasted that his lab made more
> thoroughgoing use of computers than other departments and
> cited enormous consumption of machine time as evidence.
>
> Steve Johnson recalls corrrectly that there was a set of macros
> that turned the assembler into a Lisp compiler. I wrote it
> and used it for a theorem-proving project spurred by Martin
> Davis. (The project was blown away when Robinson published
> the resolution princple.) The compiler did some cute local
> optimization, taking account of facts such as Bob Morris's
> astute observation that the 704 instruction TNZ (transfer on
> nonzero) sets the accumulator to zero.
>
> Doug

From thomas.paulsen at firemail.de  Wed Nov 13 19:16:16 2019
From: thomas.paulsen at firemail.de (Thomas Paulsen)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:16:16 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>

'T'was before my time, but the legend has it that the original BLISS-10
bootstrap compiler was a set of TECO macros that Chuck Geschke (Adobe's
founder) wrote.'
Really? TECO = Tape Editor and Corrector




From davida at pobox.com  Wed Nov 13 20:55:06 2019
From: davida at pobox.com (David Arnold)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 21:55:06 +1100
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <201911130738.xAD7ceUS014587@freefriends.org>
References: <201911121515.xACFFf0V095921@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
 <201911130738.xAD7ceUS014587@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <906345E8-A336-4E32-92FE-289FC3087998@pobox.com>

I found some related notes in the history of (GNU) M4:

    https://www.gnu.org/software/m4/manual/m4-1.4.17/html_node/History.html <https://www.gnu.org/software/m4/manual/m4-1.4.17/html_node/History.html>

I’ve no idea how accurate they are.



d



> On 13 Nov 2019, at 18:38, arnold at skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> Thanks Doug!
> 
> So Unix m6 was a port of the Fortran version, it sounds like.
> 
> Q1. When and why was it dropped from Unix? When and why did m4
> enter the picture?
> 
> Q2. What's the history of Fortran on Unix?  Clearly there was a
> lot of Fortran going on in 1127 (cf. BWK's book, ratfor,
> software tools ...)  Who wrote the first Unix fortran compiler?
> 
> Much thanks,
> 
> Arnold
> 
> Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> M6 originated as a porting tool for the Fortran source code
>> for Stan Brown's Altran language for algebraic computation. M6
>> itself was originally written in highly portable Fortran.
>> 
>> Arnold asked, "How widespread was the use of macro processors
>> in high level languages?  They were big for assembler, and
>> PL/1 had a macro language, but I don't know of any other
>> contemporary languages that had them."
>> 
>> Understanding "contemporary" to mean pre-C, I agree. Cpp,
>> a particularly trivial macroprocessor, has been heavily used
>> ever since--even for other languages, e.g. Haskell.
>> 
>> The rumor that Bob Morris invented macros is off the
>> mark. Macros were in regular use by the time he joined Bell
>> Labs. He did conceive an interesting "form-letter generator",
>> called "form", and an accompanying editor "fed". A sort of
>> cross between macros and Vannevar Bush's hypothetical memex
>> repository, these were among the earliest Unix programs and
>> appeared in the manual from v1 through v6.
>> 
>> Off-topic warning: pre-Unix stories follow.
>> 
>> Contrary to an assertion on cat-v.org, I did not invent macros
>> either.  In 1959 Doug Eastwood and I, at the suggestion of
>> George Mealy, created the macro facility for SAP (SHARE assmbly
>> program) for the IBM 704. However, the idea was in the air at
>> the time. In particular, we knew that GE already had macros,
>> though we knew no details about their syntax or semantics.
>> 
>> There were various attempts in the 1960s to build languages by
>> macro extension. The approach turned out to entail considerable
>> social cost: communication barriers arise when everyone
>> can easily create his own dialect. A case in point: I once
>> had a bright young mathematician summer employee who wrote
>> wonderfully concise code by heaping up macro definitions. The
>> result was inscrutable.
>> 
>> Macros caught on in a big way in the ESS labs at Indian Hill.
>> With a macro-defined switching language, code builds were
>> slow. One manager there boasted that his lab made more
>> thoroughgoing use of computers than other departments and
>> cited enormous consumption of machine time as evidence.
>> 
>> Steve Johnson recalls corrrectly that there was a set of macros
>> that turned the assembler into a Lisp compiler. I wrote it
>> and used it for a theorem-proving project spurred by Martin
>> Davis. (The project was blown away when Robinson published
>> the resolution princple.) The compiler did some cute local
>> optimization, taking account of facts such as Bob Morris's
>> astute observation that the 704 instruction TNZ (transfer on
>> nonzero) sets the accumulator to zero.
>> 
>> Doug

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From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Nov 13 22:20:38 2019
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 12:20:38 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de> (Thomas Paulsen's
 message of "Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:16:16 +0100")
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
Message-ID: <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Thomas Paulsen wrote:
>   'T'was before my time, but the legend has it that the original BLISS-10
>   bootstrap compiler was a set of TECO macros that Chuck Geschke (Adobe's
>   founder) wrote.'
> 
> Really? TECO = Tape Editor and Corrector

Why not?  TECO is both an editor and a programming language.  The first
Emacs was written in TECO.

From mike.ab3ap at gmail.com  Wed Nov 13 22:50:05 2019
From: mike.ab3ap at gmail.com (Mike Markowski)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:50:05 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
 <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <CANq1pfmO745-Xs5ua=nccr6==DRg8mbyu-=uei5YUZ-gr+N=5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 7:21 AM Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:

> Thomas Paulsen wrote:
> >   'T'was before my time, but the legend has it that the original BLISS-10
> >   bootstrap compiler was a set of TECO macros that Chuck Geschke (Adobe's
> >   founder) wrote.'
> >
> > Really? TECO = Tape Editor and Corrector
>
> Why not?  TECO is both an editor and a programming language.  The first
> Emacs was written in TECO.
>

Pi calculated with teco:  http://www.iwriteiam.nl/HaPi_TECO_macro.html
This impresses me, partly because it looks like someone fell asleep on a
keyboard.
Running it just now:

  qsb$ tecoc mung pi.tec,30
  314159265358979323846264338327

Mike Markowski
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From lars at nocrew.org  Wed Nov 13 23:02:40 2019
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 13:02:40 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <CANq1pfmO745-Xs5ua=nccr6==DRg8mbyu-=uei5YUZ-gr+N=5w@mail.gmail.com>
 (Mike Markowski's message of "Wed, 13 Nov 2019 07:50:05 -0500")
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
 <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <CANq1pfmO745-Xs5ua=nccr6==DRg8mbyu-=uei5YUZ-gr+N=5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7w4kz8kjyn.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Mike Markowski wrote:
> Pi calculated with teco: http://www.iwriteiam.nl/HaPi_TECO_macro.html
> This impresses me, partly because it looks like someone fell asleep on a
> keyboard.

As does this:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13519471

Perhaps COFF is more appropriate for TECO discussions.

From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Wed Nov 13 23:47:54 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 08:47:54 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm
Message-ID: <201911131347.xADDlsDE051995@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

Most of this post is off topic; the conclusion is not.

On the afternoon of Martin Luther King Day, 1990, AT&T's
backbone network slowed to a crawl. The cause: a patch intended
to save time when a switch that had taken itself off line (a
rare, but routine and almost imperceptible event) rejoined the
network. The patch was flawed; a lock should have been taken
one instruction sooner.

Bell Labs had tested the daylights out of the patch by
subjecting a real switch in the lab to tortuously heavy, but
necessarily artificial loads. It may also have been tested on
a switch in the wild before the patch was deployed throughout
the network, but that would not have helped.

The trouble was that a certain sequence of events happening
within milliseconds on calls both ways between two heavily
loaded switches could evoke a ping-pong of the switches leaving
and rejoining the network.

The phenomenon was contagious because of the enhanced odds of a
third switch experiencing the bad sequence with a switch that
was repeatedly taking itself off line. The basic problem (and
a fortiori the contagion) had not been seen in the lab because
the lab had only one of the multimillion-dollar switches to
play with.

The meltdown was embarrassing, to say the least. Yet nobody
ever accused AT&T of idiocy for not first testing on a private
network this feature that was inadvertently "designed to
compromise" switches.

Doug

From paul.winalski at gmail.com  Thu Nov 14 02:56:05 2019
From: paul.winalski at gmail.com (Paul Winalski)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:56:05 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
 <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <CABH=_VRruX=1kPRUOK_pQvuCmVU-CRaBdQbC9kERp3=Or=5Kcw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11/13/19, Lars Brinkhoff <lars at nocrew.org> wrote:
>
> Why not?  TECO is both an editor and a programming language.  The first
> Emacs was written in TECO.
>
Which is how it got its name, of course.  Emacs = "Editor MACroS".

-Paul W.

From jon at fourwinds.com  Thu Nov 14 04:02:36 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 10:02:36 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm [ really programming
 education ]
In-Reply-To: <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

arnold at skeeve.com writes:
> Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
>
> > I am very disappointed that programming education seems not to care
> > enough about this sort of thing, even today.
>
> I think this is the key. Universities focus (too much?) on the theory
> and not enough on the practice, and "learn how to program" courses
> and books focus on the mechanics (syntax, semantics) and not enough
> (or at all) on the practicum of writing code well.
>
> We continue to rely on the school of hard knocks, and we continue
> to pay for this reliance.
>
> I also think there's a sliding scale. The fancier or higher-end
> the university, the more the focus on theory, and vice versa. Sigh.
>
> Arnold

OK, this is a bit of a tangential topic for this list.  But, what's the
point of obsessing on UNIX history unless it's coupled with some effort
to communicate the philosophy to a new generation of programmers?

This has been a real concern of mine for a while.  As a friend of mine
put it, processors are getting so cheap that pretty soon we won't be
able to purchase pencils that don't contain them.  This puts us all
at the mercy of not-great programmers.  And of course, it's not just
pencils, it's stuff like airplanes too.

In my opinion, the root of the problem is that programming today is
being taught in the abstract - as if programs don't run on computers.
Programming today is taught as if it consists of importing libraries
and gluing function calls together.

I recently visited my daughter's college and attended a number of CS
related presentations.  Was surprised that CS is taught in Java with
some advanced work in Python.  One can almost get a CS degree there
without ever using a compiler much less learning how computers function.
Too be fair, other schools such as Dartmouth where Doug hangs out have
a better curriculum.

At the K-12 level, the stage is set by combination of the "everybody
must learn to code" curriculum with "no child left behind".  School
administrators dispense with any critical thinking about the value of
the curriculum in order to chase grant dollars.

I used to be able to get into my local schools to volunteer-teach
programming.  But, the learn to code curriculum has eclipsed that;
schools are led to believe that they're teaching the right stuff
(because Bill Gates says so) and aren't interested in anything else.

I recently turned my course notes into a book as an attempt to make
some small difference.  Too soon to tell if it will.

Anyway, my question for you all is, how do we as seasoned practitioners
leverage our experience to contribute to the state of the art?  Any of
you found a way to pass on your knowledge?

BTW, I'm doing my first messing around with the Linux kernel these days;
if anyone knows the guts of the generic filesystem code I could use a bit
of help.  Here's something that I came across on the way in <sys/mount.h>:

enum
{
  MS_RDONLY = 1,		/* Mount read-only.  */
#define MS_RDONLY	MS_RDONLY
  MS_NOSUID = 2,		/* Ignore suid and sgid bits.  */
#define MS_NOSUID	MS_NOSUID
  MS_NODEV = 4,			/* Disallow access to device special files.  */
#define MS_NODEV	MS_NODEV
...
};

Can anyone explain the value of this programming style?  Is this just an
example of the result of how programming is taught today?

Be happy discuss this off-list.

Jon

From coppero1237 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 14 04:49:23 2019
From: coppero1237 at gmail.com (Tyler Adams)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 20:49:23 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm [ really programming
 education ]
In-Reply-To: <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org>
 <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <CAEuQd1De--ZDKwso795ufe6CuMQb-_gpOmdR2jyV=s8d9B1JJA@mail.gmail.com>

>
> OK, this is a bit of a tangential topic for this list.  But, what's the
> point of obsessing on UNIX history unless it's coupled with some effort
> to communicate the philosophy to a new generation of programmers?
>
100 times this.


A few hypotheses for why colleges teaching "theoretical programming"
(i.e. Computer Science).

- Universities, especially at the undergraduate level, have a mission
to teach students how to think, not how to do. This leads to more theory
and less practice.

- Universities are top down institutions with lecturers. Theory is easier
to teach in a top down institution than practical advice.

- Software engineering is evolving so quickly, it would be hard to put
together a software engineering program which had economic value.
CMU has a MS in Software Engineering, but their cirriculum is vague so it's
hard to tell what they do.
If anybody here has taken it I'd love to hear what you thought of it.

- A lot of good work needs to be done that doesn't require breaking
the JVM, python, or JS abstraction layer. Cycles are cheap.
Memory is cheap.  And not all programs have latency or uptime requirements.
UNIX culture of course was lightyears ahead of knowing this and
economized for the most expensive resource of all: developer time.

To bring this back to TUHS, how did (and do) UNIX developers teach
the UNIX way? As someone younger than Linux, I was only lucky enough to
read The Art Of Unix Programming by ESR and read Kernighan's books.

 Tyler


On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 8:03 PM Jon Steinhart <jon at fourwinds.com> wrote:

> arnold at skeeve.com writes:
> > Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
> >
> > > I am very disappointed that programming education seems not to care
> > > enough about this sort of thing, even today.
> >
> > I think this is the key. Universities focus (too much?) on the theory
> > and not enough on the practice, and "learn how to program" courses
> > and books focus on the mechanics (syntax, semantics) and not enough
> > (or at all) on the practicum of writing code well.
> >
> > We continue to rely on the school of hard knocks, and we continue
> > to pay for this reliance.
> >
> > I also think there's a sliding scale. The fancier or higher-end
> > the university, the more the focus on theory, and vice versa. Sigh.
> >
> > Arnold
>
> OK, this is a bit of a tangential topic for this list.  But, what's the
> point of obsessing on UNIX history unless it's coupled with some effort
> to communicate the philosophy to a new generation of programmers?
>
> This has been a real concern of mine for a while.  As a friend of mine
> put it, processors are getting so cheap that pretty soon we won't be
> able to purchase pencils that don't contain them.  This puts us all
> at the mercy of not-great programmers.  And of course, it's not just
> pencils, it's stuff like airplanes too.
>
> In my opinion, the root of the problem is that programming today is
> being taught in the abstract - as if programs don't run on computers.
> Programming today is taught as if it consists of importing libraries
> and gluing function calls together.
>
> I recently visited my daughter's college and attended a number of CS
> related presentations.  Was surprised that CS is taught in Java with
> some advanced work in Python.  One can almost get a CS degree there
> without ever using a compiler much less learning how computers function.
> Too be fair, other schools such as Dartmouth where Doug hangs out have
> a better curriculum.
>
> At the K-12 level, the stage is set by combination of the "everybody
> must learn to code" curriculum with "no child left behind".  School
> administrators dispense with any critical thinking about the value of
> the curriculum in order to chase grant dollars.
>
> I used to be able to get into my local schools to volunteer-teach
> programming.  But, the learn to code curriculum has eclipsed that;
> schools are led to believe that they're teaching the right stuff
> (because Bill Gates says so) and aren't interested in anything else.
>
> I recently turned my course notes into a book as an attempt to make
> some small difference.  Too soon to tell if it will.
>
> Anyway, my question for you all is, how do we as seasoned practitioners
> leverage our experience to contribute to the state of the art?  Any of
> you found a way to pass on your knowledge?
>
> BTW, I'm doing my first messing around with the Linux kernel these days;
> if anyone knows the guts of the generic filesystem code I could use a bit
> of help.  Here's something that I came across on the way in <sys/mount.h>:
>
> enum
> {
>   MS_RDONLY = 1,                /* Mount read-only.  */
> #define MS_RDONLY       MS_RDONLY
>   MS_NOSUID = 2,                /* Ignore suid and sgid bits.  */
> #define MS_NOSUID       MS_NOSUID
>   MS_NODEV = 4,                 /* Disallow access to device special
> files.  */
> #define MS_NODEV        MS_NODEV
> ...
> };
>
> Can anyone explain the value of this programming style?  Is this just an
> example of the result of how programming is taught today?
>
> Be happy discuss this off-list.
>
> Jon
>
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From ron at ronnatalie.com  Thu Nov 14 05:15:14 2019
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 14:15:14 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] #defines and enums
In-Reply-To: <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org>
 <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <055e389cb6a223888c86228963327efc.squirrel@squirrelmail.tuffmail.net>


>
> BTW, I'm doing my first messing around with the Linux kernel these days;
> if anyone knows the guts of the generic filesystem code I could use a bit
> of help.  Here's something that I came across on the way in <sys/mount.h>:
>
> enum
> {
>   MS_RDONLY = 1,		/* Mount read-only.  */
> #define MS_RDONLY	MS_RDONLY
>   MS_NOSUID = 2,		/* Ignore suid and sgid bits.  */
> #define MS_NOSUID	MS_NOSUID
>   MS_NODEV = 4,			/* Disallow access to device special files.  */
> #define MS_NODEV	MS_NODEV
> ...
> };
>
> Can anyone explain the value of this programming style?  Is this just an
> example of the result of how programming is taught today?
>
>

This really is more a C question than a UNIX one.    The problem is that
the preprocessor macros are really kind of a kludge.   Making things
either enums (or in later C/C++ const int definitions) is a lot cleaner.  
 The #define is just probably backwards a compatibility kludge (for people
using things like MS_RDONLY or whatever in other macros).



From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Nov 14 05:19:50 2019
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 19:19:50 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <CABH=_VRruX=1kPRUOK_pQvuCmVU-CRaBdQbC9kERp3=Or=5Kcw@mail.gmail.com>
 (Paul Winalski's message of "Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:56:05 -0500")
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
 <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <CABH=_VRruX=1kPRUOK_pQvuCmVU-CRaBdQbC9kERp3=Or=5Kcw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7w4kz7k2i1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

Paul Winalski wrote:
>> The first Emacs was written in TECO.
> Which is how it got its name, of course.  Emacs = "Editor MACroS".

So the story goes.  But I'm not sure sure.  In November 1976, the name
went from ? and ?MACS to E and EMACS.  Maybe "editor" was implied, but
it doesn't come up in the email conversation.

From jon at fourwinds.com  Thu Nov 14 05:21:44 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 11:21:44 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <7w4kz7k2i1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
 <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <CABH=_VRruX=1kPRUOK_pQvuCmVU-CRaBdQbC9kERp3=Or=5Kcw@mail.gmail.com>
 <7w4kz7k2i1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <201911131921.xADJLirZ765029@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

Lars Brinkhoff writes:
> Paul Winalski wrote:
> >> The first Emacs was written in TECO.
> > Which is how it got its name, of course.  Emacs = "Editor MACroS".
>
> So the story goes.  But I'm not sure sure.  In November 1976, the name
> went from ? and ?MACS to E and EMACS.  Maybe "editor" was implied, but
> it doesn't come up in the email conversation.

For what it's worth, I have some vague memory of attending a lunchtime
presentation at BTL in maybe the summer of 72 or 73 on EMACS as TECO
editor macros.

Jon

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Nov 14 07:11:19 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 14:11:19 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] #defines and enums
In-Reply-To: <055e389cb6a223888c86228963327efc.squirrel@squirrelmail.tuffmail.net>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org>
 <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
 <055e389cb6a223888c86228963327efc.squirrel@squirrelmail.tuffmail.net>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrNKc=g4+QMCd-ruQSxeBWeQwh8zv8kiY5DUvhoEakkmg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019, 12:15 PM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

>
> >
> > BTW, I'm doing my first messing around with the Linux kernel these days;
> > if anyone knows the guts of the generic filesystem code I could use a bit
> > of help.  Here's something that I came across on the way in
> <sys/mount.h>:
> >
> > enum
> > {
> >   MS_RDONLY = 1,              /* Mount read-only.  */
> > #define MS_RDONLY     MS_RDONLY
> >   MS_NOSUID = 2,              /* Ignore suid and sgid bits.  */
> > #define MS_NOSUID     MS_NOSUID
> >   MS_NODEV = 4,                       /* Disallow access to device
> special files.  */
> > #define MS_NODEV      MS_NODEV
> > ...
> > };
> >
> > Can anyone explain the value of this programming style?  Is this just an
> > example of the result of how programming is taught today?
> >
> >
>
> This really is more a C question than a UNIX one.    The problem is that
> the preprocessor macros are really kind of a kludge.   Making things
> either enums (or in later C/C++ const int definitions) is a lot cleaner.
>  The #define is just probably backwards a compatibility kludge (for people
> using things like MS_RDONLY or whatever in other macros).
>

It lets the users of these interfaces conditionally use them as ifdef. A
pure enum interface doesn't let you do that. This makes it harder to write
portable code that is driven directly by what is defined.

While it seems purer to use enum, it is problematic. C++ doesn't let you
use it for bit fields due to special rules around enums that aren't there
to get in the way in C.

Conditional code is important, as are providing enough compat scaffolding
when sharing code between many systems, or when different compilers are
used. Macro processing accomplishes this rather well, though not without
other issues. In an ideal world, you could put other constructs into the
language to accomplish these goals... But none that have been good enough
to gain any traction at all....

Warner

>
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From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Nov 14 07:26:14 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 08:26:14 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911140824530.408@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 13 Nov 2019, Thomas Paulsen wrote:

> Really? TECO = Tape Editor and Corrector

Text Editor and Corrector, back when I had to learn it for a contract 
assignment.

-- Dave

From chet.ramey at case.edu  Thu Nov 14 07:22:04 2019
From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 16:22:04 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm [ really programming
 education ]
In-Reply-To: <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org>
 <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <b0f1fad3-1e87-0fae-1571-f2fd01dec90a@case.edu>

On 11/13/19 1:02 PM, Jon Steinhart wrote:

> At the K-12 level, the stage is set by combination of the "everybody
> must learn to code" curriculum with "no child left behind".  School
> administrators dispense with any critical thinking about the value of
> the curriculum in order to chase grant dollars.

In my experience as a school board member, it's not grant dollars so much
as the amount of control the state exerts over the curriculum. The state
dictates the material and content that is taught. For AP classes, like
AP computer science, the College Board creates the courses and decides
what material is included. And in most cases, especially AP classes and
core classes where there are end-of-course proficiency requirements, the
material on those standardized tests dictates how the course is taught.

This is off-topic at this point.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet at case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/

From jaapna at xs4all.nl  Thu Nov 14 08:53:02 2019
From: jaapna at xs4all.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 23:53:02 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
Message-ID: <ECCE53DD-5686-425E-889C-FE116E7F3151@xs4all.nl>



> On Nov 13, 2019, at 10:16, Thomas Paulsen <thomas.paulsen at firemail.de> wrote:
> 
> 'T'was before my time, but the legend has it that the original BLISS-10
> bootstrap compiler was a set of TECO macros that Chuck Geschke (Adobe's
> founder) wrote.'
> Really? TECO = Tape Editor and Corrector

Yes, and the TAPE in the mnemonic is paper tape.

In an former live we once had a text formatter running on OS/8
(pdp-8) written in TECO.

	jaap

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Nov 14 11:35:21 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 17:35:21 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] #defines and enums
Message-ID: <20191114013521.GB10732@mcvoy.com>

FYI.

----- Forwarded message from Linus Torvalds <torvalds at linux-foundation.org> -----

Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 12:37:50 -0800
From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds at linux-foundation.org>
To: Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
Subject: Re: enum style?

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:28 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> and asked what was the point of the #defines.  I couldn't answer, the only
> thing I can think of is so you can say
>
>         int     flags = MS_RDONLY;
>
> Which is cool, but why bother with the enum?

For the kernel we actually have this special "type-safe enum" checker
thing, which warns about assigning one enum type to another.

It's not really C, but it's close. It's the same tool we use for some
other kernel-specific type checking (user pointers vs kernel pointers
etc): 'sparse'.

  http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man1/sparse.1.html

and in particular the "-Wenum-mismatch" flag to enable that warning
when you assign an enum to another enum.

It's quite useful for verifying that you pass the right kind of enum
to functions etc - which is a really easy mistake to make in C, since
they all just devolve into 'int' when they are used.

However, we don't use it for the MS_xyz flag: those are just plain
#define's in the kernel. But maybe somebody at some point wanted to do
something similar for the ones you point at?

The only other reason I can think of is that somebody really wanted to
use an enum for namespace reasons, and then noticed that other people
had used a #define and used "#ifdef XYZ" to check whether it was
available, and then instead of changing the enums to #defines, they
just added the self-defines.

In the kernel we do that "use #define for discoberability" quite a lot
particularly with architecture-specific helper functions. So you migth
have

   static inline some_arch_fn(..) ...
   #define some_arch_fn some_arch_fn

in an architecture file, and then in generic code we have

   #ifndef some_arch_fn
   static inline some_arch_fn(.,,) /* generic implemenbtation goes here */
   #endif

as a way to avoid extra configuration variables for the "do I have a
special version X?"

There's no way to ask "is the C symbol X available in this scope", so
using the pre-processor for that is as close as you can get.

               Linus

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From thomas.paulsen at firemail.de  Thu Nov 14 19:26:39 2019
From: thomas.paulsen at firemail.de (Thomas Paulsen)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 10:26:39 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
 <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
Message-ID: <f68fbf8dad43ac5e8314c094c1ece06f@firemail.de>


'Why not?  TECO is both an editor and a programming language.  The first
Emacs was written in TECO.'

Hic Rhodos - Hic Salta!

I have a account on a remote twenex PDP10. There is a editor named emacs. This is a very archaic piece of software. It doesn't know any teco commands no matter how I tried. I'm pretty sure that this is teco-emacs. I draw my own conclusions from these observations which are far away from all these myths.



From lars at nocrew.org  Thu Nov 14 20:53:21 2019
From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 10:53:21 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <f68fbf8dad43ac5e8314c094c1ece06f@firemail.de> (Thomas Paulsen's
 message of "Thu, 14 Nov 2019 10:26:39 +0100")
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <d155d03e5177486fb1702add77ed540bebc3515a@webmail.yaccman.com>
 <CAC20D2PjXNN-LTvpfTRvAzoCo-wMbf9tLuNTzs63_7VEGJUD0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <08b6c7ce02adabe45f54621c3cbe9863@firemail.de>
 <7w8sokklwp.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>
 <f68fbf8dad43ac5e8314c094c1ece06f@firemail.de>
Message-ID: <7wblteiva6.fsf@junk.nocrew.org>

I suggest continuing this on COFF.

Thomas Paulsen wrote:
> I have a account on a remote twenex PDP10. There is a editor named
> emacs. This is a very archaic piece of software.  It doesn't know any
> teco commands no matter how I tried. I'm pretty sure that this is
> teco-emacs.

Yes, it should be TECO Emacs.  Normal use of Emacs rarely needs TECO
commands.

To get a TECO minibuffer type Meta-Altmode (Esc Esc).  You should get a
small window at the top of the terminal in which you can enter TECO
commands.  Execute them with double altmode as you would in any TECO.

> I draw my own conclusions from these observations which are far away
> from all these myths.

I try to stay with the facts.  I actually use TECO Emacs almost daily,
and I have built it from sources.  Some other information is based on
email conversations among those who wrote Emacs.

From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Sat Nov 16 00:31:19 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 09:31:19 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Morris worm
Message-ID: <201911151431.xAFEVKCO029897@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

> That was the trouble; had he bothered to test it on a private network (as
> if a true professional would even consider carrying out such an act)[*] he
> would've noticed that his probability calculations were arse-backwards

Morris's failure to foresee the results of even slow exponential
growth is matched by the failure of the critique above to realize
that Morris wouldn't have seen the trouble in a small network test.

The worm assured that no more than one copy (and occasionally one clone)
would run on a machine at a time. This limits the number of attacks
that any one machine experiences at a time to roughly the
number of machines in the network. For a small network, this will
not be a major load.


The worm became a denial-of-service attack only because a huge
number of machines were involved.

I do not remember whether the worm left tracks to prevent its
being run more than once on a machine, though I rather think
it did. This would mean that a small network test would not
only behave innocuously; it would terminate almost instantly.

Doug

From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat Nov 16 00:39:57 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 07:39:57 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday, Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <201911151431.xAFEVKCO029897@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
References: <201911151431.xAFEVKCO029897@coolidge.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfo4Mq=-TG3L25_B29w+Hws_0V=eNNea=Vi0VH36NAt1Rg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019, 7:32 AM Doug McIlroy <doug at cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

> > That was the trouble; had he bothered to test it on a private network (as
> > if a true professional would even consider carrying out such an act)[*]
> he
> > would've noticed that his probability calculations were arse-backwards
>
> Morris's failure to foresee the results of even slow exponential
> growth is matched by the failure of the critique above to realize
> that Morris wouldn't have seen the trouble in a small network test.
>
> The worm assured that no more than one copy (and occasionally one clone)
> would run on a machine at a time. This limits the number of attacks
> that any one machine experiences at a time to roughly the
> number of machines in the network. For a small network, this will
> not be a major load.
>
>
> The worm became a denial-of-service attack only because a huge
> number of machines were involved.
>
> I do not remember whether the worm left tracks to prevent its
> being run more than once on a machine, though I rather think
> it did. This would mean that a small network test would not
> only behave innocuously; it would terminate almost instantly.
>

it had code to do that, but IIRC, there were bugs in that code that
prevented it being completely effective in some cases... the sorts of
cases, though, that a small scale test wouldn't likely catch.

Warner
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From athornton at gmail.com  Sat Nov 16 08:49:29 2019
From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 17:49:29 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm [ really programming
 education ]
In-Reply-To: <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org>
 <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <CAP2nic1ysr11mL3WHPf9Tqag2PHaoZUY3gvB9+_W-LDh6yTTKQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 1:03 PM Jon Steinhart <jon at fourwinds.com> wrote:

> arnold at skeeve.com writes:
> Programming today is taught as if it consists of importing libraries
> and gluing function calls together.
>

To be fair, this is basically what modern software development in
enterprise settings is.  Thing is, you don’t need a CS degree for that;
it’s a completely artificial barrier to entry.  You need an
apprenticeship.  That’s even kind of acknowledged, in that by your third
job, no one cares where or if you went to school or what for.

Anyway, my question for you all is, how do we as seasoned practitioners
> leverage our experience to contribute to the state of the art?  Any of
> you found a way to pass on your knowledge?
>

Find someone who’s interested and talk to them?  I mean, that’s kinda what
this list is, right?

The other part: it’s historically been a crap shoot whether the CS
department at any given place came out of EE, in which case it was the
bottom-up here’s a transistor, and here’s a flip-flop, and, look, logic
gates!  Adders!  Et cetera, or it came out of the math department and is a
theory-heavy specialization of some very particular parts of discrete
mathematics and combinatorics.
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From tytso at mit.edu  Sat Nov 16 09:59:02 2019
From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Y. Ts'o)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 18:59:02 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Happy birthday Morris worm [ really programming
 education ]
In-Reply-To: <CAP2nic1ysr11mL3WHPf9Tqag2PHaoZUY3gvB9+_W-LDh6yTTKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <201911130735.xAD7ZQD6014497@freefriends.org>
 <201911131802.xADI2fxE752068@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
 <CAP2nic1ysr11mL3WHPf9Tqag2PHaoZUY3gvB9+_W-LDh6yTTKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191115235902.GA18146@mit.edu>

On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 05:49:29PM -0500, Adam Thornton wrote:
> 
> The other part: it’s historically been a crap shoot whether the CS
> department at any given place came out of EE, in which case it was the
> bottom-up here’s a transistor, and here’s a flip-flop, and, look, logic
> gates!  Adders!  Et cetera, or it came out of the math department and is a
> theory-heavy specialization of some very particular parts of discrete
> mathematics and combinatorics.

And neither of these necessarily means that a person with CS
undergraduate degree will necessarily have a strong OS / Systems
background.  I remember running out of undergraduate CS classes at
MIT, so I started taking the graduate level classes --- and was
astounded when a first year graduate student raised their hand and
asked, "What's Virtual Memory"?  Turns out she came from a highly
math-centric program, and it was simply never covered --- which is why
the first level intro CS class, even at the graduate level, couldn't
make any assumptions about what admitted graduate students might have
as their background.

On the flip side, I remember talking to someone who had their CS
undergraduate program from the UK, and he was astounded that we didn't
cover type functions and type theory as part of MIT's undergraduate CS
program.  (It's covered in a graduate level class, and most undergrads
wouldn't have taken it.)

So the fundamental issue is there is no real consensus about what must
be in a CS undergraduate degree program.  It used to be one of my
favorite interview questions required that as part of answer, to
implement the moral equivalent of itoa().  What floored me was how
many interviewees with a 4 year CS degree program under their belt
foundered on what was supposed to be the warmup, "just checking to
make sure you know how to program" part of the problem.

     	      	       	  	   - Ted

From woods at robohack.ca  Sat Nov 16 12:51:37 2019
From: woods at robohack.ca (Greg A. Woods)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 18:51:37 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] another conversion of the CSRG BSD SCCS archives to Git
Message-ID: <m1iVoBV-0036tPC@more.local>

I've been fixing and enhancing James Youngman's git-sccsimport to use
with some of my SCCS archives, and I thought it might be the ultimate
stress test of it to convert the CSRG BSD SCCS archives.

The conversion takes about an hour to run on my old-ish Dell server.

This conversion is unlike others -- there is some mechanical compression
of related deltas into a single Git commit.

https://github.com/robohack/ucb-csrg-bsd

https://github.com/robohack/git-sccsimport

--
					Greg A. Woods <gwoods at acm.org>

Kelowna, BC     +1 250 762-7675           RoboHack <woods at robohack.ca>
Planix, Inc. <woods at planix.com>     Avoncote Farms <woods at avoncote.ca>
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From spedraja at gmail.com  Sun Nov 17 02:27:47 2019
From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 17:27:47 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
 <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF_OQwG5d_qUWaz5554T0z2_iP=EvxZWvPHJ4q-89Yj0oA@mail.gmail.com>

El mar., 12 nov. 2019 1:31, Clem cole <clemc at ccc.com> escribió:

> Not so fast there my friend.  Ratfor was used a great deal.  For instance
> The PGI compiler folks wrote a parallel optimizing compiler for the FPS-164
> in it.  And FPS used it for there OS.  Plus Apollo wrote all their original
> utilities in it.


My first FORTRAN textbook was titled "FORTRAN with WATFOR and WATFIV". It
had a long print run as well.

Cordiales saludos / Best Regards / Salutations / Freundliche Grüße
-----
Sergio Pedraja
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From dave at horsfall.org  Sun Nov 17 15:30:15 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 16:30:15 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF_OQwG5d_qUWaz5554T0z2_iP=EvxZWvPHJ4q-89Yj0oA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
 <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>
 <CACytpF_OQwG5d_qUWaz5554T0z2_iP=EvxZWvPHJ4q-89Yj0oA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911171625260.408@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sat, 16 Nov 2019, SPC wrote:

> My first FORTRAN textbook was titled "FORTRAN with WATFOR and WATFIV". 
> It had a long print run as well.

Now *that* brings back memories (not necessarily pleasant).  WATFOR was as 
ugly as sin, but WATFIV was much better i.e. it actually knew about stuff 
such as labelled common etc (I could be wrong here).

And I still feel like taking a shower after discussing FORTRAN :-)

Then we got ALGOLW, and it was heavenly.  PL/360 had a good run too.

-- Dave

From lm at mcvoy.com  Sun Nov 17 15:50:58 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 21:50:58 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911171625260.408@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
 <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>
 <CACytpF_OQwG5d_qUWaz5554T0z2_iP=EvxZWvPHJ4q-89Yj0oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911171625260.408@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20191117055058.GB23794@mcvoy.com>

On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 04:30:15PM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Nov 2019, SPC wrote:
> 
> >My first FORTRAN textbook was titled "FORTRAN with WATFOR and WATFIV". It
> >had a long print run as well.
> 
> Now *that* brings back memories (not necessarily pleasant).  WATFOR was as
> ugly as sin

I'm pretty sure that was the Fortran I learned.  Yeah, it was not C.  But
it was math.  I spent a bunch of time learning accumulated errors and 
more time on floating point numbers.  My dad was a theoretical physics
guy so I did some coding for him.  I respected Fortran for what it could
do but I developed a hate for floating point.  In my mind, floating
point numbers meant you couldn't handle the world you were working in.
It just felt like you could shift the domain you were working in so
integers could work.  If you couldn't do that, you were admitting that
you were not accurate.

From bakul at bitblocks.com  Mon Nov 18 04:12:28 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:12:28 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 16 Nov 2019 21:50:58 -0800."
 <20191117055058.GB23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
 <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>
 <CACytpF_OQwG5d_qUWaz5554T0z2_iP=EvxZWvPHJ4q-89Yj0oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911171625260.408@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20191117055058.GB23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <20191117181235.AE91A156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>

On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 21:50:58 -0800 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
Larry McVoy writes:
> On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 04:30:15PM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> > On Sat, 16 Nov 2019, SPC wrote:
> > 
> > >My first FORTRAN textbook was titled "FORTRAN with WATFOR and WATFIV". It
> > >had a long print run as well.
> > 
> > Now *that* brings back memories (not necessarily pleasant).  WATFOR was as
> > ugly as sin
>
> I'm pretty sure that was the Fortran I learned.  Yeah, it was not C.  But
> it was math.  I spent a bunch of time learning accumulated errors and 
> more time on floating point numbers.  My dad was a theoretical physics
> guy so I did some coding for him.  I respected Fortran for what it could
> do but I developed a hate for floating point.  In my mind, floating
> point numbers meant you couldn't handle the world you were working in.
> It just felt like you could shift the domain you were working in so
> integers could work.  If you couldn't do that, you were admitting that
> you were not accurate.

Many numbers can't be represented perfectly using integers or
rationals (a pair of integers) but can be computed using a
series expansion to arbitrary precision.  I thought FP numbers
were a clever & practical compromise that worked quite well.
David Goldberg's "What every computer scientist should know
about floating-point" is worth reading.
  
  https://www.itu.dk/~sestoft/bachelor/IEEE754_article.pdf

Earlier I remember reading the "Numerical Recipes" books by
Press, Teukolsky, Vetterling & Flannery. IIRC, the original
version used Fortran.  They also had versions using Pascal and
C (I finally bought the C version in '80s though never used it).

Note that Scheme & CL have a full complement of numeric types:
big nums, rationals, reals and complex numbers.  At least some
versions of CL have arbitrary precision FP numbers.

What I really want is a programming language with support for
symbolic manipulation of formulas!

From michael at kjorling.se  Mon Nov 18 04:23:05 2019
From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:23:05 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <20191117181235.AE91A156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
 <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>
 <CACytpF_OQwG5d_qUWaz5554T0z2_iP=EvxZWvPHJ4q-89Yj0oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911171625260.408@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20191117055058.GB23794@mcvoy.com>
 <20191117181235.AE91A156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <nsr3m4hzxntbsr9hxfrqs7bx@localhost>

On 17 Nov 2019 10:12 -0800, from bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah):
> What I really want is a programming language with support for
> symbolic manipulation of formulas!

Do you mean something like HAL/S?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL/S#Syntax

Though quite frankly, at a glance that multi-line syntax looks
somewhat awkward for little benefit over a single-line format,
especially if the code is already annotated (as certainly I would
expect for in-flight avionics software, never mind aboard a
spacecraft).

-- 
Michael Kjörling • https://michael.kjorling.se • michael at kjorling.se
 “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”


From bakul at bitblocks.com  Mon Nov 18 04:56:36 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 10:56:36 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:23:05 +0000."
 <nsr3m4hzxntbsr9hxfrqs7bx@localhost>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
 <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>
 <CACytpF_OQwG5d_qUWaz5554T0z2_iP=EvxZWvPHJ4q-89Yj0oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911171625260.408@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20191117055058.GB23794@mcvoy.com>
 <20191117181235.AE91A156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <nsr3m4hzxntbsr9hxfrqs7bx@localhost>
Message-ID: <20191117185643.411FE156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>

On Sun, 17 Nov 2019 18:23:05 +0000 Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?= <michael at kjorling.se> wrote:
Michael Kjörling writes:
> On 17 Nov 2019 10:12 -0800, from bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah):
> > What I really want is a programming language with support for
> > symbolic manipulation of formulas!
>
> Do you mean something like HAL/S?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL/S#Syntax
>
> Though quite frankly, at a glance that multi-line syntax looks
> somewhat awkward for little benefit over a single-line format,
> especially if the code is already annotated (as certainly I would
> expect for in-flight avionics software, never mind aboard a
> spacecraft).

Syntax is a separate issue.  Something like what Macsyma (or
Maxima now) or even LaTeX would be fine. Many word processors
and browsers can render the latter properly. Syntax is the
easy part (though it can be controversial).  The hard part is
having to build in a tremendous amount of math knowledge. Even
if the compiler/interpreter were to outsource the symbolic
algebra manipulation part to maxima, mathematica or some such,
smooth integration with other language features would not be easy.

From bstanly42 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 18 08:46:32 2019
From: bstanly42 at gmail.com (Barry Stanly)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 14:46:32 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] History of m6?
In-Reply-To: <20191117181235.AE91A156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <201911112110.xABLAQfW004396@skeeve.com>
 <20191111223129.GB23273@mit.edu>
 <EBCBF73F-3CF2-45F2-B062-42152AA01FC9@ccc.com>
 <CACytpF_OQwG5d_qUWaz5554T0z2_iP=EvxZWvPHJ4q-89Yj0oA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911171625260.408@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20191117055058.GB23794@mcvoy.com>
 <20191117181235.AE91A156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <624204f4-e484-85c8-f6d6-c29cdfc90a19@gmail.com>

Just a note:
(I am new to this list and find the history revealed fascinating, so 
thank you all for insights.)
There is an interesting paper on symbolic formula manipulation:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/0367/25f0abfd88879dd88d77e3a5e51915db5f1b.pdf

There is also a symbolic Python library: https://www.sympy.org/en/index.html

On 11/17/2019 10:12 AM, Bakul Shah wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Nov 2019 21:50:58 -0800 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> Larry McVoy writes:
>> On Sun, Nov 17, 2019 at 04:30:15PM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Nov 2019, SPC wrote:
>>>
>>>> My first FORTRAN textbook was titled "FORTRAN with WATFOR and WATFIV". It
>>>> had a long print run as well.
>>> Now *that* brings back memories (not necessarily pleasant).  WATFOR was as
>>> ugly as sin
>> I'm pretty sure that was the Fortran I learned.  Yeah, it was not C.  But
>> it was math.  I spent a bunch of time learning accumulated errors and
>> more time on floating point numbers.  My dad was a theoretical physics
>> guy so I did some coding for him.  I respected Fortran for what it could
>> do but I developed a hate for floating point.  In my mind, floating
>> point numbers meant you couldn't handle the world you were working in.
>> It just felt like you could shift the domain you were working in so
>> integers could work.  If you couldn't do that, you were admitting that
>> you were not accurate.
> Many numbers can't be represented perfectly using integers or
> rationals (a pair of integers) but can be computed using a
> series expansion to arbitrary precision.  I thought FP numbers
> were a clever & practical compromise that worked quite well.
> David Goldberg's "What every computer scientist should know
> about floating-point" is worth reading.
>    
>    https://www.itu.dk/~sestoft/bachelor/IEEE754_article.pdf
>
> Earlier I remember reading the "Numerical Recipes" books by
> Press, Teukolsky, Vetterling & Flannery. IIRC, the original
> version used Fortran.  They also had versions using Pascal and
> C (I finally bought the C version in '80s though never used it).
>
> Note that Scheme & CL have a full complement of numeric types:
> big nums, rationals, reals and complex numbers.  At least some
> versions of CL have arbitrary precision FP numbers.
>
> What I really want is a programming language with support for
> symbolic manipulation of formulas!
>


From arnold at skeeve.com  Wed Nov 20 05:01:39 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (Arnold Robbins)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:01:39 +0200
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
Message-ID: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>

The Early History of Usenet, Part I: The Technological Setting:
https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/blog/2019-11/2019-11-14a.html

The Early History of Usenet, Part II: Hardware and Economics:
https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/blog/2019-11/2019-11-15.html

The Early History of Usenet, Part III: File Format:
https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/blog/2019-11/2019-11-17.html

Fun reading. Bellovin is another person we should try to get
to join this list.

Enjoy,

Arnold

From royce at techsolvency.com  Wed Nov 20 07:08:15 2019
From: royce at techsolvency.com (Royce Williams)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:08:15 -0900
Subject: [TUHS] UNIX v0 on a PDP7 - behind the scenes (Living Computers)
Message-ID: <CA+E3k93qQonbkdLx-50b_TMnyU81tB7V8srmGLpHX5MxN-cyGQ@mail.gmail.com>

I hadn't seen this yet - apologies if it's not news:

https://livingcomputers.org/Blog/Restoring-UNIX-v0-on-a-PDP-7-A-look-behind-the-sce.aspx

Quoting:

"I recently sat down with Fred Yearian, a former Boeing engineer, and
Jeff Kaylin, an engineer at Living Computers, to talk about their
restoration work on Yerian’s PDP-7 at Living Computers: Museum +
Labs."

[...]

Up until the discovery of Yearian’s machine, LCM+L’s PDP-7 was
believed to be the only operational PDP-7 left in the world. Chuckling
to himself, Yearian recalls hearing this history presented during his
first visit to LCM+L.

 “I walked in the computer museum, and someone said ‘Oh, this is the
only [PDP-7] that’s still working’.

And I said, ‘Well actually, I got one in my basement!’”

[end quote]

Fun story - and worthy work. Nicely done.

-- 
Royce

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Nov 21 13:14:23 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:14:23 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
Message-ID: <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>

Yeah, I'd be super happy if he joined the list.  I enjoyed reading
those, wished he had gone into more detail.

On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
so far as I know, the searchable part went away.

If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet,
my early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids
that.  Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on
comp.unix-wizards, etc.

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 09:01:39PM +0200, Arnold Robbins wrote:
> The Early History of Usenet, Part I: The Technological Setting:
> https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/blog/2019-11/2019-11-14a.html
> 
> The Early History of Usenet, Part II: Hardware and Economics:
> https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/blog/2019-11/2019-11-15.html
> 
> The Early History of Usenet, Part III: File Format:
> https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/blog/2019-11/2019-11-17.html
> 
> Fun reading. Bellovin is another person we should try to get
> to join this list.
> 
> Enjoy,
> 
> Arnold

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From ggm at algebras.org  Thu Nov 21 13:18:10 2019
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:18:10 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn2jeiGpziCmObXBWAgujEFeyOqFJ=0uYu4wg2Z-ZWH3Zw@mail.gmail.com>

there is a big US bias in the archives of USENET. All I could find
preserved (before Google deleted it) was my updates to the maps for
York.ac.uk. In collecting history, the US erased most of Europe and
Asia basically.  Our timelines are artificially compressed into the
modern era.

UCL gatewayed a lot of stuff into other news/forum spaces. So, our
view of the world was a disjoint set of UK news, USENET news, European
news, VMS news, BITNET lists. The world was an amazing place. Kuwait
camel breeders association operating online in teaching hospital email
lists in 1985

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 11:14 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> Yeah, I'd be super happy if he joined the list.  I enjoyed reading
> those, wished he had gone into more detail.
>
> On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
> archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
> so far as I know, the searchable part went away.
>
> If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet,
> my early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids
> that.  Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on
> comp.unix-wizards, etc.
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 09:01:39PM +0200, Arnold Robbins wrote:
> > The Early History of Usenet, Part I: The Technological Setting:
> > https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/blog/2019-11/2019-11-14a.html
> >
> > The Early History of Usenet, Part II: Hardware and Economics:
> > https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/blog/2019-11/2019-11-15.html
> >
> > The Early History of Usenet, Part III: File Format:
> > https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/blog/2019-11/2019-11-17.html
> >
> > Fun reading. Bellovin is another person we should try to get
> > to join this list.
> >
> > Enjoy,
> >
> > Arnold
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Nov 21 13:28:32 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:28:32 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <CAKr6gn2jeiGpziCmObXBWAgujEFeyOqFJ=0uYu4wg2Z-ZWH3Zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jeiGpziCmObXBWAgujEFeyOqFJ=0uYu4wg2Z-ZWH3Zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191121032832.GD23794@mcvoy.com>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 11:18:10AM +0800, George Michaelson wrote:
> there is a big US bias in the archives of USENET. All I could find
> preserved (before Google deleted it) was my updates to the maps for
> York.ac.uk. In collecting history, the US erased most of Europe and
> Asia basically.  Our timelines are artificially compressed into the
> modern era.

Can you explain this a bit?  When I was on Usenet, 1980-1990 or so, it
was very small, my guess is maybe 10,000 people that posted, maybe less.
My memory is I could post a question to comp.arch or where ever, and I'd
wake up in the morning and someone from Australia or some other place
over the pond had an answer.  It was usually a grad student or a prof
or someone really smart.

So is this an archive thing?  Because in my memory, it was not a Usenet
thing, smart people from all over the world posted.

As an aside, I remember being on a canoe with my dad, a physics researcher
and prof, and trying to explain Usenet to him.  I said something like
"it is so cool Dad, so many cool people, everyone should be on it".  And
then AOL happened and it went to shit.  If my thoughts helped that along
I am _so_ sorry.  It was awesome when it was small.

This list is sort of like early Usenet, smart people, people who know the
history.  Lets keep it small but Steve should be here.

--lm

From chet.ramey at case.edu  Thu Nov 21 13:40:48 2019
From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:40:48 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <7395199a-f0c8-220a-c9ff-30ebb5dcde32@case.edu>

On 11/20/19 10:14 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> Yeah, I'd be super happy if he joined the list.  I enjoyed reading
> those, wished he had gone into more detail.
> 
> On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
> archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
> so far as I know, the searchable part went away.
> 
> If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet,
> my early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids
> that.  Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on
> comp.unix-wizards, etc.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.arch

Then a combination of date-based filters and searching for messages
should get you closer. I've used it before, it's a huge pain in the
ass, but it's better than zero.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet at case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Nov 21 13:39:59 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:39:59 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <alpine.NEB.2.21.1911202130260.24191@t1.m.reedmedia.net>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.NEB.2.21.1911202130260.24191@t1.m.reedmedia.net>
Message-ID: <20191121033959.GG23794@mcvoy.com>

I'm finding source that I posted in 1986.  And I'm finding that I was
a cocky jerk back in the day :)  Thanks for this Reed!

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 09:34:54PM -0600, reed at reedmedia.net wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:
> 
> > On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
> > archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
> > so far as I know, the searchable part went away.
> 
> See
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/net.sources/84CTdvAdlb0/gTkGJnbSXxEJ
> 
> Click the drop-down arrow in the search field.
> 
> You can also use keywords in the search form.
> Here is another example
> 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/net.unix/dmr$20AND$20before$3A1985$2F01$2F01%7Csort:date/net.unix/9VegaP_SIyI/3GHz6bPEDgsJ

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Nov 21 13:42:56 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:42:56 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <7395199a-f0c8-220a-c9ff-30ebb5dcde32@case.edu>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <7395199a-f0c8-220a-c9ff-30ebb5dcde32@case.edu>
Message-ID: <20191121034256.GH23794@mcvoy.com>

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 10:40:48PM -0500, Chet Ramey wrote:
> On 11/20/19 10:14 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > Yeah, I'd be super happy if he joined the list.  I enjoyed reading
> > those, wished he had gone into more detail.
> > 
> > On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
> > archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
> > so far as I know, the searchable part went away.
> > 
> > If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet,
> > my early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids
> > that.  Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on
> > comp.unix-wizards, etc.
> 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.arch
> 
> Then a combination of date-based filters and searching for messages
> should get you closer. I've used it before, it's a huge pain in the
> ass, but it's better than zero.

Yeah on the pain in the ass, is there a way to search all of Usenet or
is it per group only?

From chet.ramey at case.edu  Thu Nov 21 13:50:06 2019
From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:50:06 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191121034256.GH23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <7395199a-f0c8-220a-c9ff-30ebb5dcde32@case.edu>
 <20191121034256.GH23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <2d1ae7fd-f0c5-5949-c730-a783b5d4bdc3@case.edu>

On 11/20/19 10:42 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:

>>> If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet,
>>> my early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids
>>> that.  Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on
>>> comp.unix-wizards, etc.
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.arch
>>
>> Then a combination of date-based filters and searching for messages
>> should get you closer. I've used it before, it's a huge pain in the
>> ass, but it's better than zero.
> 
> Yeah on the pain in the ass, is there a way to search all of Usenet or
> is it per group only?

>From the groups interface, it seems to be group-at-a-time.

-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet at case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/

From bakul at bitblocks.com  Thu Nov 21 13:50:53 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:50:53 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:14:23 -0800."
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <20191121035101.211D9156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:14:23 -0800 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I'd be super happy if he joined the list.  I enjoyed reading
> those, wished he had gone into more detail.
>
> On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
> archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
> so far as I know, the searchable part went away.
>
> If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet,
> my early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids
> that.  Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on
> comp.unix-wizards, etc.

I have occasionally downloaded some mbox.zip files from
    https://archive.org/details/usenet
But there are too many files there.  Would be nice if there
was a collaborative effort to organize them in a more usable,
searchable state. Pretty much all of it (minus binaries
groups) can be stored locally (or using some global
namespace.

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Nov 21 13:51:42 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:51:42 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <2d1ae7fd-f0c5-5949-c730-a783b5d4bdc3@case.edu>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <7395199a-f0c8-220a-c9ff-30ebb5dcde32@case.edu>
 <20191121034256.GH23794@mcvoy.com>
 <2d1ae7fd-f0c5-5949-c730-a783b5d4bdc3@case.edu>
Message-ID: <20191121035142.GI23794@mcvoy.com>

In reading my old posts, I found this as my .signature in 1986, I know
people will argue with it but I still agree, I get that there is Rust
and Go and whatever.  The programmers that I hang with still like C.

"If you are undertaking anything substantial, C is the only reasonable
 choice of programming language"  --  Brian W. Kerninghan

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Nov 21 13:52:46 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:52:46 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191121035101.211D9156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <20191121035101.211D9156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <20191121035246.GJ23794@mcvoy.com>

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:50:53PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:14:23 -0800 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > Yeah, I'd be super happy if he joined the list.  I enjoyed reading
> > those, wished he had gone into more detail.
> >
> > On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
> > archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
> > so far as I know, the searchable part went away.
> >
> > If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet,
> > my early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids
> > that.  Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on
> > comp.unix-wizards, etc.
> 
> I have occasionally downloaded some mbox.zip files from
>     https://archive.org/details/usenet
> But there are too many files there.  Would be nice if there
> was a collaborative effort to organize them in a more usable,
> searchable state. Pretty much all of it (minus binaries
> groups) can be stored locally (or using some global
> namespace.

So is that all of Usenet?
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From reed at reedmedia.net  Thu Nov 21 13:34:54 2019
From: reed at reedmedia.net (reed at reedmedia.net)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 21:34:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.21.1911202130260.24191@t1.m.reedmedia.net>

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:

> On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
> archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
> so far as I know, the searchable part went away.

See
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/net.sources/84CTdvAdlb0/gTkGJnbSXxEJ

Click the drop-down arrow in the search field.

You can also use keywords in the search form.
Here is another example

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/net.unix/dmr$20AND$20before$3A1985$2F01$2F01%7Csort:date/net.unix/9VegaP_SIyI/3GHz6bPEDgsJ


From bakul at bitblocks.com  Thu Nov 21 13:58:50 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:58:50 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:52:46 -0800."
 <20191121035246.GJ23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <20191121035101.211D9156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <20191121035246.GJ23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <20191121035858.125CA156E9F9@mail.bitblocks.com>

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:52:46 -0800 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
Larry McVoy writes:
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:50:53PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote:
> > On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:14:23 -0800 Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
> > > Yeah, I'd be super happy if he joined the list.  I enjoyed reading
> > > those, wished he had gone into more detail.
> > >
> > > On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
> > > archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
> > > so far as I know, the searchable part went away.
> > >
> > > If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet,
> > > my early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids
> > > that.  Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on
> > > comp.unix-wizards, etc.
> > 
> > I have occasionally downloaded some mbox.zip files from
> >     https://archive.org/details/usenet
> > But there are too many files there.  Would be nice if there
> > was a collaborative effort to organize them in a more usable,
> > searchable state. Pretty much all of it (minus binaries
> > groups) can be stored locally (or using some global
> > namespace.
>
> So is that all of Usenet?

Probably not.  Too many files to check but I think most or all
of dejanews stuf is there.

From usotsuki at buric.co  Thu Nov 21 13:58:39 2019
From: usotsuki at buric.co (Steve Nickolas)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:58:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191121035142.GI23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <7395199a-f0c8-220a-c9ff-30ebb5dcde32@case.edu>
 <20191121034256.GH23794@mcvoy.com>
 <2d1ae7fd-f0c5-5949-c730-a783b5d4bdc3@case.edu>
 <20191121035142.GI23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.02.1911202258250.77980@frieza.hoshinet.org>

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:

> In reading my old posts, I found this as my .signature in 1986, I know
> people will argue with it but I still agree, I get that there is Rust
> and Go and whatever.  The programmers that I hang with still like C.
>
> "If you are undertaking anything substantial, C is the only reasonable
> choice of programming language"  --  Brian W. Kerninghan

It still is! XD

-uso.

From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Nov 21 16:26:48 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:26:48 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF87sSza+jiOrurX_H39p6jgwCW92oY1Twgy_qoPYB2p2w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>
 <20191106000600.GD26959@mit.edu>
 <479EA77E-E0A7-4B27-AEBB-42948309C03E@technologists.com>
 <CACytpF87sSza+jiOrurX_H39p6jgwCW92oY1Twgy_qoPYB2p2w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03867014-5806-aa15-f4e4-db5fe1c376a5@bitsavers.org>



On 11/5/19 11:59 PM, SPC wrote:
> 
> 
> Is it AOS stuff saved and available (including source code)
> un some place on the Internet?

It was, and may still be in the afs heirarchy
I'm not going to say where, or how complete what was there is
I also seem to remember it still sat on top of an AIX microkernel
and didn't go down to bare metal.




From ggm at algebras.org  Thu Nov 21 18:56:13 2019
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:56:13 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191121032832.GD23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jeiGpziCmObXBWAgujEFeyOqFJ=0uYu4wg2Z-ZWH3Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191121032832.GD23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn29Ykk2dK_RX+poOfGcDmW+P+wui-HhnTbiA2Q0RXYcvg@mail.gmail.com>

uk.* and eu.* seem to be unfindable. Stuff from before the great
USENET re-org is mostly unfindable. cross posting to lists, only
partially visible.  I've tried to find my own rants, its like I was
born into the world in 1996. What happened to 1982-onward? It just ..
evaporated.

If things have improved, I'd be happy to wish it true, but what I
recall is the archives were bootstrapped from tapes held by people who
felt it was the best they could do, in a time where people didn't
really keep ephemera, and alas, the stuff wasn't all, it was the view
of all. which some people saw.

I think uk.* never left the island.  Maybe this is one of those
definitions things: we used the A and B news protocol, we used UUCP,
we were on USENET, but if we weren't in the backbone cabal, its like
we didn't exist.

People love to talk about shebang addressing (me too, and VMS a::b::c)
but Honey-Danber, was the shizzle. They made the world so much
simpler, by doing the obvious flattening of the pathspace into
namespace, with path dealt with elsewhere. moving to a at somewhere was
god-given help to morons. Shebang paths sucked.

(It would not surprise me for a hk.* and jp.* and su.* and the like to
say: "brother, you have no idea")

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 11:28 AM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 11:18:10AM +0800, George Michaelson wrote:
> > there is a big US bias in the archives of USENET. All I could find
> > preserved (before Google deleted it) was my updates to the maps for
> > York.ac.uk. In collecting history, the US erased most of Europe and
> > Asia basically.  Our timelines are artificially compressed into the
> > modern era.
>
> Can you explain this a bit?  When I was on Usenet, 1980-1990 or so, it
> was very small, my guess is maybe 10,000 people that posted, maybe less.
> My memory is I could post a question to comp.arch or where ever, and I'd
> wake up in the morning and someone from Australia or some other place
> over the pond had an answer.  It was usually a grad student or a prof
> or someone really smart.
>
> So is this an archive thing?  Because in my memory, it was not a Usenet
> thing, smart people from all over the world posted.
>
> As an aside, I remember being on a canoe with my dad, a physics researcher
> and prof, and trying to explain Usenet to him.  I said something like
> "it is so cool Dad, so many cool people, everyone should be on it".  And
> then AOL happened and it went to shit.  If my thoughts helped that along
> I am _so_ sorry.  It was awesome when it was small.
>
> This list is sort of like early Usenet, smart people, people who know the
> history.  Lets keep it small but Steve should be here.
>
> --lm

From bakul at bitblocks.com  Thu Nov 21 19:40:54 2019
From: bakul at bitblocks.com (Bakul Shah)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 01:40:54 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:56:13 +0800."
 <CAKr6gn29Ykk2dK_RX+poOfGcDmW+P+wui-HhnTbiA2Q0RXYcvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jeiGpziCmObXBWAgujEFeyOqFJ=0uYu4wg2Z-ZWH3Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191121032832.GD23794@mcvoy.com>
 <CAKr6gn29Ykk2dK_RX+poOfGcDmW+P+wui-HhnTbiA2Q0RXYcvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191121094102.19A37156E9F9@mail.bitblocks.com>

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:56:13 +0800 George Michaelson <ggm at algebras.org> wrote:
> uk.* and eu.* seem to be unfindable. Stuff from before the great
> USENET re-org is mostly unfindable. cross posting to lists, only
> partially visible.  I've tried to find my own rants, its like I was
> born into the world in 1996. What happened to 1982-onward? It just ..
> evaporated.

Check out the archive,org link I provided earlier. I found a
couple of posts from you in net.lang.c some time in 1984.

From ggm at algebras.org  Thu Nov 21 19:51:17 2019
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 17:51:17 +0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191121094102.19A37156E9F9@mail.bitblocks.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jeiGpziCmObXBWAgujEFeyOqFJ=0uYu4wg2Z-ZWH3Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191121032832.GD23794@mcvoy.com>
 <CAKr6gn29Ykk2dK_RX+poOfGcDmW+P+wui-HhnTbiA2Q0RXYcvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191121094102.19A37156E9F9@mail.bitblocks.com>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn0o2ihevg4_O+6++BE3EzjyLwU_zoP_-SA0t5m7rgG-0w@mail.gmail.com>

I shudder to think how naive, arrogant or both they are. But, thank
you for your detective work. I exist, I am not a number is a glorious
feeling.

What this says, is that where our posts into the world crossed outside
closed (national) namespaces in UUCP backed services, they did get
archived as much as any other did. But I think my other strand remains
true. The body of posts I and others made into uk.* is probably now
lost forever.  Ephemeral data preservation is chancey. A future
digital archeologist will be looking at these bits, inferring stuff
which in some sense is true (the US was the centre of much discussion
in this space) and not true (the absence of data states about other
places is not strongly indicative of their richness and intensity,
because they were not preserved)

-G

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 5:41 PM Bakul Shah <bakul at bitblocks.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:56:13 +0800 George Michaelson <ggm at algebras.org> wrote:
> > uk.* and eu.* seem to be unfindable. Stuff from before the great
> > USENET re-org is mostly unfindable. cross posting to lists, only
> > partially visible.  I've tried to find my own rants, its like I was
> > born into the world in 1996. What happened to 1982-onward? It just ..
> > evaporated.
>
> Check out the archive,org link I provided earlier. I found a
> couple of posts from you in net.lang.c some time in 1984.

From crossd at gmail.com  Thu Nov 21 21:58:38 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 06:58:38 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <03867014-5806-aa15-f4e4-db5fe1c376a5@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>
 <20191106000600.GD26959@mit.edu>
 <479EA77E-E0A7-4B27-AEBB-42948309C03E@technologists.com>
 <CACytpF87sSza+jiOrurX_H39p6jgwCW92oY1Twgy_qoPYB2p2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <03867014-5806-aa15-f4e4-db5fe1c376a5@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 1:33 AM Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 11/5/19 11:59 PM, SPC wrote:
> >
> >
> > Is it AOS stuff saved and available (including source code)
> > un some place on the Internet?
>
> It was, and may still be in the afs heirarchy
> I'm not going to say where, or how complete what was there is
> I also seem to remember it still sat on top of an AIX microkernel
> and didn't go down to bare metal.
>

No, that's not true. AOS was basically 4.3BSD Tahoe plus NFS and it ran on
bare RT hardware. There was source code available to universities, though
as I recall some bits related to memory management were missing and
distributed as object files. I gathered, at the time, this was due to some
obscure intellectual property reasons. People later tried to Port e.g.
4.4BSD to aging RT hardware and found it challenging because the memory
subsystem was so different.

But anyway, there was no hypervisor involved.

        - Dan C.
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From arrigo at alchemistowl.org  Thu Nov 21 21:16:09 2019
From: arrigo at alchemistowl.org (Arrigo Triulzi)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 12:16:09 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <CAKr6gn29Ykk2dK_RX+poOfGcDmW+P+wui-HhnTbiA2Q0RXYcvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
 <CAKr6gn2jeiGpziCmObXBWAgujEFeyOqFJ=0uYu4wg2Z-ZWH3Zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191121032832.GD23794@mcvoy.com>
 <CAKr6gn29Ykk2dK_RX+poOfGcDmW+P+wui-HhnTbiA2Q0RXYcvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6D671173-7EC0-47A0-9466-B332E0DA3ED6@alchemistowl.org>

On 21 Nov 2019, at 09:56, George Michaelson <ggm at algebras.org> wrote:
> (It would not surprise me for a hk.* and jp.* and su.* and the like to
> say: "brother, you have no idea”)

And it.* and many other “local” groups from unis but also companies, ;)

What about clari.net? Anyone remember them? They had groups for “real news”, financial info, etc. on a subscription basis.

Arrigo


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Thu Nov 21 22:46:49 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 12:46:49 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>

I keep a copy of the utzoo files. 
And then I hacked the altavista desktop search the files using Apache to filter content inline. 
https://altavista.superglobalmegacorp.com/altavista

I know I'd love to feed it more data, the utzoo stuff is massive for 1991, but it's really trivial for 2019.  It's around 10GB decompressed.  

From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> on behalf of Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2019, 11:53 AM
To: Bakul Shah
Cc: tuhs at tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 07:50:53PM -0800, Bakul Shah wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 19:14:23 -0800 Larry McVoy  wrote:
> > Yeah, I'd be super happy if he joined the list.  I enjoyed reading
> > those, wished he had gone into more detail.
> >
> > On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
> > archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
> > so far as I know, the searchable part went away.
> >
> > If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet,
> > my early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids
> > that.  Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on
> > comp.unix-wizards, etc.
> 
> I have occasionally downloaded some mbox.zip files from
>     https://archive.org/details/usenet
> But there are too many files there.  Would be nice if there
> was a collaborative effort to organize them in a more usable,
> searchable state. Pretty much all of it (minus binaries
> groups) can be stored locally (or using some global
> namespace.

So is that all of Usenet?
-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

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From ches at cheswick.com  Thu Nov 21 23:10:00 2019
From: ches at cheswick.com (William Cheswick)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 08:10:00 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <CAC0cEp9VQg3xu425oxWvOotYcOSACtoWC2Ev-0XoejKC6fzGNg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1573598358.7551.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <CAC0cEp9VQg3xu425oxWvOotYcOSACtoWC2Ev-0XoejKC6fzGNg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <977155D5-559B-4850-8D65-F0D6FA043A25@cheswick.com>

BTW, Bob Morris was not a Senior, and had no middle name.  It is my understanding that he inserted an “h” when a middle initial was demanded at the Labs, hence “rhm”.

His son is Robert Tappan Morris, Labs login and general tag “rtm," is not a junior.

(I had to fight spelling correction on this Mac so much for this post that I have turned it off.)

> On Nov 12, 2019, at 8:43 PM, John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Lorinda Cherry told me that that RTM (senior) used to test people's programs by feeding them to themselves as input, a.out < a.out. It helped cure people of the assumption that a program would only see "reasonable" inputs.


From arnold at skeeve.com  Thu Nov 21 23:23:25 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 06:23:25 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>

Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:

> I keep a copy of the utzoo files. 

Any chance of getting them to Warren for storage? Or are they
generally available somewhere?

Thanks,

Arnold

From brad at anduin.eldar.org  Thu Nov 21 23:07:00 2019
From: brad at anduin.eldar.org (Brad Spencer)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 08:07:00 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com> (message
 from Dan Cross on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 06:58:38 -0500)
Message-ID: <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>

Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> writes:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 1:33 AM Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 11/5/19 11:59 PM, SPC wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Is it AOS stuff saved and available (including source code)
>> > un some place on the Internet?
>>
>> It was, and may still be in the afs heirarchy
>> I'm not going to say where, or how complete what was there is
>> I also seem to remember it still sat on top of an AIX microkernel
>> and didn't go down to bare metal.
>>
>
> No, that's not true. AOS was basically 4.3BSD Tahoe plus NFS and it ran on
> bare RT hardware. There was source code available to universities, though
> as I recall some bits related to memory management were missing and
> distributed as object files. I gathered, at the time, this was due to some
> obscure intellectual property reasons. People later tried to Port e.g.
> 4.4BSD to aging RT hardware and found it challenging because the memory
> subsystem was so different.
>
> But anyway, there was no hypervisor involved.
>
>         - Dan C.

For a brief time a long time ago, I used a 4.3BSD based Mt. Xinu, MACH
microkernel, OS on the IBM-RT as an alternative to AOS.  Ran well
enough, but was disk and memory constrained.  We had source to much of
the system (or perhaps all of it, don't remember), but I seem to recall
that compiling it was a big pain.  Something like you had to use a
specific compiler (perhaps referred to as High C??  hc command perhaps)
to compile some of the source.  gcc had a backend for the ROMP
processor, but it had a hard time making usable binaries.  I think that
some variation of pcc was the usual compiler.  I remember it being
pretty stock 4.3BSD with NFS and minus YP/NIS.  We used them mostly as X
terminal workstations.




-- 
Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS - http://anduin.eldar.org

From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Thu Nov 21 23:31:24 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 13:31:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.53af6bd2-8056-442f-896c-454a1f022d28@mail.outlook.com>

Oh sure I forgot to add them to my reply 




https://utzoo.superglobalmegacorp.com 




I keep a backup of them there.  The original site is gone. I think archive.org should have it too as utzoo. 




They are a must have for any amateur historian. It was so awesome pulling out the 4.2bsd nic driver for simh.  And an incredible resource for seeing how the ancients dealt with things. 




Get Outlook for Android







On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 9:23 PM +0800, <arnold at skeeve.com> wrote:










Jason Stevens  wrote:

> I keep a copy of the utzoo files. 

Any chance of getting them to Warren for storage? Or are they
generally available somewhere?

Thanks,

Arnold





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From crossd at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 00:19:07 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 09:19:07 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
References: <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5Un6Q7bjK_m1j639XiWLScTYE82wPA3sj-n3Rs-=1vnQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 8:07 AM Brad Spencer <brad at anduin.eldar.org> wrote:

> For a brief time a long time ago, I used a 4.3BSD based Mt. Xinu, MACH
> microkernel, OS on the IBM-RT as an alternative to AOS.  Ran well
> enough, but was disk and memory constrained.  We had source to much of
> the system (or perhaps all of it, don't remember), but I seem to recall
> that compiling it was a big pain.  Something like you had to use a
> specific compiler (perhaps referred to as High C??  hc command perhaps)
> to compile some of the source.  gcc had a backend for the ROMP
> processor, but it had a hard time making usable binaries.  I think that
> some variation of pcc was the usual compiler.  I remember it being
> pretty stock 4.3BSD with NFS and minus YP/NIS.  We used them mostly as X
> terminal workstations.
>

"High C" (or perhaps "Hi C"? It's been a while...) was the name of the
system compiler on AOS; I thought it was installed as `cc`. I don't recall
a pcc-derived compiler, but apparently such a thing did exist and some
documentation says that High C was installed as `hc`, so my memory may be
off. This old post describes RT compilers:
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt/u7DUwY5U9kQ/uVqLP9FhqMEJ

Hi-C was sort of an odd compiler. I gather IBM outsourced the development
of it to some third party (MetaWare) which was founded by very religious
people, and I have a vague memory of some of the documentation or perhaps
even error messages making biblical references.

The kernel had to be built with High C, if I recall correctly, though GCC
worked OK for producing userspace binaries. I don't recall what the bug
was, but it was eventually found and fixed. Perhaps it had to do with
incomplete register saves on function entry interacting poorly with
interrupts or something.

Some RT enthusiasts kept those machines running well beyond their prime.
Why? I'm not entirely sure; as you say, they were memory and disk
constrained. They were also very slow. Anyway, I have some vague
recollection that at some point the bug in the compiler was fixed so that
GCC could produce a working kernel; nascent NetBSD and OpenBSD ports were
planned, but I don't think they ever went anywhere.
https://www.openbsd.org/romp.html exists, though I don't know that the
NetBSD people ever got beyond the talking stage. The OpenBSD-romp mailing
list had some interesting information, but I can't find archives anymore.

Oh well. The RT was an interesting footnote in the history of computing,
but it seems that, as a workstation, it was too little too late by the time
it actually hit the market. Had they released it a few years earlier?
Perhaps they could have cornered the market.

        - Dan C.
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From leah at vuxu.org  Fri Nov 22 01:58:01 2019
From: leah at vuxu.org (Leah Neukirchen)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:58:01 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
 (arnold@skeeve.com's message of "Thu, 21 Nov 2019 06:23:25 -0700")
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org>

arnold at skeeve.com writes:

> Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
>
>> I keep a copy of the utzoo files. 
>
> Any chance of getting them to Warren for storage? Or are they
> generally available somewhere?

They are also on archive.org:
https://archive.org/details/utzoo-wiseman-usenet-archive

-- 
Leah Neukirchen  <leah at vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/

From chet.ramey at case.edu  Fri Nov 22 02:16:54 2019
From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:16:54 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W5Un6Q7bjK_m1j639XiWLScTYE82wPA3sj-n3Rs-=1vnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
 <CAEoi9W5Un6Q7bjK_m1j639XiWLScTYE82wPA3sj-n3Rs-=1vnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <397f861b-8684-0938-250c-b929e7710000@case.edu>

On 11/21/19 9:19 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 8:07 AM Brad Spencer <brad at anduin.eldar.org 
> <mailto:brad at anduin.eldar.org>> wrote:
> 
>     For a brief time a long time ago, I used a 4.3BSD based Mt. Xinu, MACH
>     microkernel, OS on the IBM-RT as an alternative to AOS.  Ran well
>     enough, but was disk and memory constrained.  We had source to much of
>     the system (or perhaps all of it, don't remember), but I seem to recall
>     that compiling it was a big pain.  Something like you had to use a
>     specific compiler (perhaps referred to as High C??  hc command perhaps)
>     to compile some of the source.  gcc had a backend for the ROMP
>     processor, but it had a hard time making usable binaries.  I think that
>     some variation of pcc was the usual compiler.  I remember it being
>     pretty stock 4.3BSD with NFS and minus YP/NIS.  We used them mostly as X
>     terminal workstations.
> 
> 
> "High C" (or perhaps "Hi C"? It's been a while...) was the name of the 
> system compiler on AOS; I thought it was installed as `cc`.

"High C", and it was installed as cc and hc.


> Some RT enthusiasts kept those machines running well beyond their prime. 
> Why? I'm not entirely sure; as you say, they were memory and disk 
> constrained. They were also very slow.

I had one running in my basement into the late 90s, with my own self-
maintained kernel. I did a considerable portion of the bash-2.0
development on that box, and my wife wrote all of her doctoral thesis on
it (using a troff macro package I wrote to do APA style formatting). It 
didn't make the cut when I moved from that house. Why did I have it?
Because it was free, and it did what I needed.


-- 
``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer
		 ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates
Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU    chet at case.edu    http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/

From greg.m.travis at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 02:43:37 2019
From: greg.m.travis at gmail.com (greg travis)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:43:37 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W5Un6Q7bjK_m1j639XiWLScTYE82wPA3sj-n3Rs-=1vnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
 <CAEoi9W5Un6Q7bjK_m1j639XiWLScTYE82wPA3sj-n3Rs-=1vnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJvuEa0zifbr_9YFw9Hs8OJZps+B047x6_R7OMbo8VBQ2hm=Og@mail.gmail.com>

You're quite right about the religious error messages. I used MetaWare High
C under DOS briefly, comparing it to Turbo C and Watcom. (Watcom won.) It
had extensions to C, such as a coroutine-ish 'yield' keyword.

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 9:20 AM Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 8:07 AM Brad Spencer <brad at anduin.eldar.org>
> wrote:
>
>> For a brief time a long time ago, I used a 4.3BSD based Mt. Xinu, MACH
>> microkernel, OS on the IBM-RT as an alternative to AOS.  Ran well
>> enough, but was disk and memory constrained.  We had source to much of
>> the system (or perhaps all of it, don't remember), but I seem to recall
>> that compiling it was a big pain.  Something like you had to use a
>> specific compiler (perhaps referred to as High C??  hc command perhaps)
>> to compile some of the source.  gcc had a backend for the ROMP
>> processor, but it had a hard time making usable binaries.  I think that
>> some variation of pcc was the usual compiler.  I remember it being
>> pretty stock 4.3BSD with NFS and minus YP/NIS.  We used them mostly as X
>> terminal workstations.
>>
>
> "High C" (or perhaps "Hi C"? It's been a while...) was the name of the
> system compiler on AOS; I thought it was installed as `cc`. I don't recall
> a pcc-derived compiler, but apparently such a thing did exist and some
> documentation says that High C was installed as `hc`, so my memory may be
> off. This old post describes RT compilers:
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.sys.ibm.pc.rt/u7DUwY5U9kQ/uVqLP9FhqMEJ
>
> Hi-C was sort of an odd compiler. I gather IBM outsourced the development
> of it to some third party (MetaWare) which was founded by very religious
> people, and I have a vague memory of some of the documentation or perhaps
> even error messages making biblical references.
>
> The kernel had to be built with High C, if I recall correctly, though GCC
> worked OK for producing userspace binaries. I don't recall what the bug
> was, but it was eventually found and fixed. Perhaps it had to do with
> incomplete register saves on function entry interacting poorly with
> interrupts or something.
>
> Some RT enthusiasts kept those machines running well beyond their prime.
> Why? I'm not entirely sure; as you say, they were memory and disk
> constrained. They were also very slow. Anyway, I have some vague
> recollection that at some point the bug in the compiler was fixed so that
> GCC could produce a working kernel; nascent NetBSD and OpenBSD ports were
> planned, but I don't think they ever went anywhere.
> https://www.openbsd.org/romp.html exists, though I don't know that the
> NetBSD people ever got beyond the talking stage. The OpenBSD-romp mailing
> list had some interesting information, but I can't find archives anymore.
>
> Oh well. The RT was an interesting footnote in the history of computing,
> but it seems that, as a workstation, it was too little too late by the time
> it actually hit the market. Had they released it a few years earlier?
> Perhaps they could have cornered the market.
>
>         - Dan C.
>
>
>
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From sauer at technologists.com  Fri Nov 22 03:29:51 2019
From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:29:51 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>
 <20191106000600.GD26959@mit.edu>
 <479EA77E-E0A7-4B27-AEBB-42948309C03E@technologists.com>
 <CACytpF87sSza+jiOrurX_H39p6jgwCW92oY1Twgy_qoPYB2p2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <03867014-5806-aa15-f4e4-db5fe1c376a5@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3dd01785-c43a-7972-34e0-80049f0ec86d@technologists.com>



On 11/21/2019 5:58 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 1:33 AM Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org 
> <mailto:aek at bitsavers.org>> wrote:

>     It was, and may still be in the afs heirarchy
>     I'm not going to say where, or how complete what was there is
>     I also seem to remember it still sat on top of an AIX microkernel
>     and didn't go down to bare metal.
> 
> 
> No, that's not true. AOS was basically 4.3BSD Tahoe plus NFS and it ran 
> on bare RT hardware. There was source code available to universities, 
> though as I recall some bits related to memory management were missing 
> and distributed as object files. I gathered, at the time, this was due 
> to some obscure intellectual property reasons. People later tried to 
> Port e.g. 4.4BSD to aging RT hardware and found it challenging because 
> the memory subsystem was so different.
> 
> But anyway, there was no hypervisor involved.

There may well have been AFS for AIX and thus the confusion about 
hypervisor (AIX VRM).


-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer at technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

From rtomek at ceti.pl  Fri Nov 22 03:22:05 2019
From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 18:22:05 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20191121172205.GA12489@tau1.ceti.pl>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 12:46:49PM +0000, Jason Stevens wrote:
> I keep a copy of the utzoo files. 
> And then I hacked the altavista desktop search the files using
> Apache to filter content inline. 
> https://altavista.superglobalmegacorp.com/altavista

Nice stuff. Works with dillo browser. Not so much with emacs-w3,
because it cannot guess what is a type of data delivered from your
server - I am asked a question, give it a hint "text/html" in response
and then your page loads without any further problem. After initial
page is loaded, search went ok, no problem. HTH.

I actually used Altavista in 90-ties. Compared to today, it feels so
modern.

Like Button!

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.      **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home    **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...      **
**                                                                 **
** Tomasz Rola          mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com             **

From sauer at technologists.com  Fri Nov 22 03:33:40 2019
From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H Sauer)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:33:40 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
References: <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
Message-ID: <5df147fa-febf-2a7a-f38b-9f67429fca81@technologists.com>



On 11/21/2019 7:07 AM, Brad Spencer wrote:

> ... I remember it being
> pretty stock 4.3BSD with NFS and minus YP/NIS.  

I'm puzzled about the "minus YP/NIS". I negotiated the IBM NFS license 
on behalf of AIX, but was inclusive of the rest of the company, so I 
think ACIS put NFS into AOS under the auspices of that license. I 
remember discussing with the Palo Alto ACIS folks at the time.

I only had AOS at home, without Ethernet, so wouldn't have tried to use 
NFS or YP. But I would have thought that ACIS would have included YP.

Charlie
-- 
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer at technologists.com
fax: +1.512.346.5240         Web: https://technologists.com/sauer/
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer

From crossd at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 03:36:43 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 12:36:43 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <5df147fa-febf-2a7a-f38b-9f67429fca81@technologists.com>
References: <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
 <5df147fa-febf-2a7a-f38b-9f67429fca81@technologists.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5fzkZF0qPiGqz8C330djarxGevcKjiLf2Vf03WJsvrXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 12:34 PM Charles H Sauer <sauer at technologists.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On 11/21/2019 7:07 AM, Brad Spencer wrote:
>
> > ... I remember it being
> > pretty stock 4.3BSD with NFS and minus YP/NIS.
>
> I'm puzzled about the "minus YP/NIS". I negotiated the IBM NFS license
> on behalf of AIX, but was inclusive of the rest of the company, so I
> think ACIS put NFS into AOS under the auspices of that license. I
> remember discussing with the Palo Alto ACIS folks at the time.
>
> I only had AOS at home, without Ethernet, so wouldn't have tried to use
> NFS or YP. But I would have thought that ACIS would have included YP.
>

AOS definitely had NIS/YP. I remember it quite distinctly.

        - Dan C.
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From brad at anduin.eldar.org  Fri Nov 22 04:11:18 2019
From: brad at anduin.eldar.org (Brad Spencer)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 13:11:18 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <5df147fa-febf-2a7a-f38b-9f67429fca81@technologists.com> (message
 from Charles H Sauer on Thu, 21 Nov 2019 11:33:40 -0600)
Message-ID: <xonpnhlm75l.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>

Charles H Sauer <sauer at technologists.com> writes:

> On 11/21/2019 7:07 AM, Brad Spencer wrote:
>
>> ... I remember it being
>> pretty stock 4.3BSD with NFS and minus YP/NIS.  
>
> I'm puzzled about the "minus YP/NIS". I negotiated the IBM NFS license 
> on behalf of AIX, but was inclusive of the rest of the company, so I 
> think ACIS put NFS into AOS under the auspices of that license. I 
> remember discussing with the Palo Alto ACIS folks at the time.
>
> I only had AOS at home, without Ethernet, so wouldn't have tried to use 
> NFS or YP. But I would have thought that ACIS would have included YP.
>
> Charlie


I was referring to the Mt. Xinu Mach based 4.3BSD OS that replaced AIX
on the RTs I was using.  Aside from the 4.3BSD part, it didn't have AIX
involved... and it didn't have YP/NIS.



-- 
Brad Spencer - brad at anduin.eldar.org - KC8VKS - http://anduin.eldar.org

From scj at yaccman.com  Fri Nov 22 04:04:29 2019
From: scj at yaccman.com (Steve Johnson)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 10:04:29 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <977155D5-559B-4850-8D65-F0D6FA043A25@cheswick.com>
References: <977155D5-559B-4850-8D65-F0D6FA043A25@cheswick.com>
Message-ID: <E11541B4-5A8C-4C51-A72A-1677E547C3F4@yaccman.com>

Not everyone at the labs had a three-letter login.  Bjarne Stroustrup had the login bs, despite several gentle suggestions from myself and others that he add a middle initial...
Steve

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:18 AM, William Cheswick <ches at cheswick.com> wrote:
> 
> ﻿BTW, Bob Morris was not a Senior, and had no middle name.  It is my understanding that he inserted an “h” when a middle initial was demanded at the Labs, hence “rhm”.
> 
> His son is Robert Tappan Morris, Labs login and general tag “rtm," is not a junior.
> 
> (I had to fight spelling correction on this Mac so much for this post that I have turned it off.)
> 
>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 8:43 PM, John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Lorinda Cherry told me that that RTM (senior) used to test people's programs by feeding them to themselves as input, a.out < a.out. It helped cure people of the assumption that a program would only see "reasonable" inputs.
> 


From arnold at skeeve.com  Fri Nov 22 05:41:21 2019
From: arnold at skeeve.com (arnold at skeeve.com)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 12:41:21 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAJvuEa0zifbr_9YFw9Hs8OJZps+B047x6_R7OMbo8VBQ2hm=Og@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
 <CAEoi9W5Un6Q7bjK_m1j639XiWLScTYE82wPA3sj-n3Rs-=1vnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvuEa0zifbr_9YFw9Hs8OJZps+B047x6_R7OMbo8VBQ2hm=Og@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201911211941.xALJfLxX013801@freefriends.org>

greg travis <greg.m.travis at gmail.com> wrote:

> You're quite right about the religious error messages.

The Bell Labs guys in some ways were too. I remember flipping through some
of the early manuals and there are a number of references to needing
divine help if things go badly wrong, praying for divine guidance,
and so on. :-)  (Yes, I know that was mainly cultural. Still, it
was striking, at least to me.)

Arnold

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Nov 22 05:53:27 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 14:53:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
Message-ID: <20191121195327.0C30918C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Arnold Robbins

    > The Bell Labs guys in some ways were too.

And there's the famous? story about the Multics error messages in Latin,
courtesty of Bernie Greenberg. One actually appeared at a customer site once,
whereupon hilarity ensued.

	  Noel

From dave at horsfall.org  Fri Nov 22 06:02:03 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 07:02:03 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re:  Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911191443530.10845@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911130944090.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911191443530.10845@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911220658250.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, Tony Finch wrote:

> Amusingly POSIX says the C standard takes precedence wrt the details of 
> gets() (and other library functions) and C18 abolished gets(). I'm 
> slightly surprised that the POSIX committee didn't see that coming and 
> include the change in the 2018 edition...

Didn't know that gets() had finally been abolished; it's possibly the most 
unsafe function (OK, macro) on the planet.  I've long been tempted to 
remove gets() and see what breaks...

-- Dave

From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Nov 22 06:08:28 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:08:28 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <20191121195327.0C30918C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20191121195327.0C30918C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2P7NkytxA8gmKdpkpHfm6D1RXuBCp2tabj6ieRkd7EKCQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 2:53 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:

>     > From: Arnold Robbins
>
>     > The Bell Labs guys in some ways were too.
>
> And there's the famous? story about the Multics error messages in Latin,
> courtesty of Bernie Greenberg. One actually appeared at a customer site
> once,
> whereupon hilarity ensued.
>
One of my favorite stories of the same vein was a masscomp story.   We were
chasing a rare event (as I recall it was when we first were debugging
Multiprocessor stuff and it a lock order problem).  But we could not get
the customers to tell us about what was happening, since the system
recovered quickly, but we might kill a process. We had done a few releases
and make a few changes but we could never reproduce it.

I never knew who it was but someone ??Jack Burness if I had to guess?? put
out a patch with a couple of error messages in Klingon and dumped a bunch
of information.  Sure enough this was noticed, customer stopped, we got the
needed data, as they reported the error.  But it was a high visibility
customer, so the president (Mr. Potatohead) got a phone call.   Fossil (our
boss) made us swear it would never happen again, but he defended us to the
President.   We found the bug ;-)
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From dave at horsfall.org  Fri Nov 22 06:36:04 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 07:36:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911220733530.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 20 Nov 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:

> If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet, my 
> early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids that. 
> Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on 
> comp.unix-wizards, etc.

I think I'd be embarrassed over some of my early posts...  And yeah,
Guy Harris was brilliant, and always helpful.

-- Dave

From jon at fourwinds.com  Fri Nov 22 06:21:06 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 12:21:06 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <201911211941.xALJfLxX013801@freefriends.org>
References: <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
 <CAEoi9W5Un6Q7bjK_m1j639XiWLScTYE82wPA3sj-n3Rs-=1vnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJvuEa0zifbr_9YFw9Hs8OJZps+B047x6_R7OMbo8VBQ2hm=Og@mail.gmail.com>
 <201911211941.xALJfLxX013801@freefriends.org>
Message-ID: <201911212021.xALKL6c81215951@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

arnold at skeeve.com writes:
> greg travis <greg.m.travis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You're quite right about the religious error messages.
>
> The Bell Labs guys in some ways were too. I remember flipping through some
> of the early manuals and there are a number of references to needing
> divine help if things go badly wrong, praying for divine guidance,
> and so on. :-)  (Yes, I know that was mainly cultural. Still, it
> was striking, at least to me.)
>
> Arnold

I believe that you're talking about the "gerts" command and if you ever had
to use it, you'd know that the divine guidance part was accurate.

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Nov 22 06:38:37 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 13:38:37 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911220658250.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911130944090.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911191443530.10845@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911220658250.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrzei=PTDt1Jwgy-rMJe+odBK8gDZpUePOi9+QzMkM6nw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 1:02 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, Tony Finch wrote:
>
> > Amusingly POSIX says the C standard takes precedence wrt the details of
> > gets() (and other library functions) and C18 abolished gets(). I'm
> > slightly surprised that the POSIX committee didn't see that coming and
> > include the change in the 2018 edition...
>
> Didn't know that gets() had finally been abolished; it's possibly the most
> unsafe function (OK, macro) on the planet.  I've long been tempted to
> remove gets() and see what breaks...
>

A few things actually broke when FreeBSD removed it. Apart from 'wrappers'
that needed it for various reasons, it was only a few programs in our
'ports' package that needed to be corrected.

Most people have moved on with the 20 years of warnings when it was used...
Sadly only most...

Warner
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From crossd at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 06:53:00 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 15:53:00 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <397f861b-8684-0938-250c-b929e7710000@case.edu>
References: <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>
 <xon8so9z8cr.fsf@anduin.eldar.org>
 <CAEoi9W5Un6Q7bjK_m1j639XiWLScTYE82wPA3sj-n3Rs-=1vnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <397f861b-8684-0938-250c-b929e7710000@case.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W7zNaju3OBGuxtJKMDEpfQbt3ZaQOT+k3MSqjQn3vQGdA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 11:16 AM Chet Ramey <chet.ramey at case.edu> wrote:

> On 11/21/19 9:19 AM, Dan Cross wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 8:07 AM Brad Spencer <brad at anduin.eldar.org
> > <mailto:brad at anduin.eldar.org>> wrote:
> >
> >     For a brief time a long time ago, I used a 4.3BSD based Mt. Xinu,
> MACH
> >     microkernel, OS on the IBM-RT as an alternative to AOS.  Ran well
> >     enough, but was disk and memory constrained.  We had source to much
> of
> >     the system (or perhaps all of it, don't remember), but I seem to
> recall
> >     that compiling it was a big pain.  Something like you had to use a
> >     specific compiler (perhaps referred to as High C??  hc command
> perhaps)
> >     to compile some of the source.  gcc had a backend for the ROMP
> >     processor, but it had a hard time making usable binaries.  I think
> that
> >     some variation of pcc was the usual compiler.  I remember it being
> >     pretty stock 4.3BSD with NFS and minus YP/NIS.  We used them mostly
> as X
> >     terminal workstations.
> >
> >
> > "High C" (or perhaps "Hi C"? It's been a while...) was the name of the
> > system compiler on AOS; I thought it was installed as `cc`.
>
> "High C", and it was installed as cc and hc.
>

Yeah, that matches my (vague) recollection as well.

> Some RT enthusiasts kept those machines running well beyond their prime.
> > Why? I'm not entirely sure; as you say, they were memory and disk
> > constrained. They were also very slow.
>
> I had one running in my basement into the late 90s, with my own self-
> maintained kernel. I did a considerable portion of the bash-2.0
> development on that box, and my wife wrote all of her doctoral thesis on
> it (using a troff macro package I wrote to do APA style formatting). It
> didn't make the cut when I moved from that house. Why did I have it?
> Because it was free, and it did what I needed.
>

We kept a couple of them running through the mid- to late-90s as well. By
that time, however, it seemed like Linux and the BSDs on PCs had greatly
eclipsed whatever was possible performance or software-wise on the aging
RTs, which were also starting to fail in odd ways. But until that point,
they were free and ran Unix, and for a long time that was kind of a special
thing. We ended up replacing a 6150 with a 486 running FreeBSD and life was
pretty good, though.

The spiritual descendent of that (those) machine(s) now runs OpenBSD on a
VPS somewhere. A while back, I found some old NIS data files (in ndbm
format, of course) that we'd preserved from some ancient backup; I was able
to get the ndbm library from an old BSD distribution and compile it and
extract the data, which was kind of fun.

        - Dan C.
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From clemc at ccc.com  Fri Nov 22 07:04:03 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:04:03 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrzei=PTDt1Jwgy-rMJe+odBK8gDZpUePOi9+QzMkM6nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911130944090.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911191443530.10845@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911220658250.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfrzei=PTDt1Jwgy-rMJe+odBK8gDZpUePOi9+QzMkM6nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2PK4qv_H8t6gy++y8N0QL+8xQBCSgkfYgY2=_fjwoWR1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 3:39 PM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:

> A few things actually broke when FreeBSD removed it. Apart from 'wrappers'
> that needed it for various reasons, it was only a few programs in our
> 'ports' package that needed to be corrected.
>
> Most people have moved on with the 20 years of warnings when it was
> used... Sadly only most...
>
> Warner
>
That is encouraging to hear.
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From rminnich at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 07:11:29 2019
From: rminnich at gmail.com (ron minnich)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 13:11:29 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Irix on MIPS -- was kernel mode paged
Message-ID: <CAP6exYJXeDHfez=NKFHpNLaEcMjvpsipe8HKnhfmyi=e=D6ksQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking for a reference to any Unix ports where the kernel ran in
a non-paged address space and  user mode was paged. I could swear this
was done at some point, and memory says it was on a soft-TLB system
like the MIPS, to avoid TLB pollution and TLB fault overhead.

But maybe I'm nuts. I am happy to hear either answer.

From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Fri Nov 22 07:48:44 2019
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 22:48:44 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re:  Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911220658250.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911130944090.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911191443530.10845@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911220658250.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20191121214844.hQIAt%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Dave Horsfall wrote in <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911220658250.33542 at aneurin\
.horsfall.org>:
 |On Tue, 19 Nov 2019, Tony Finch wrote:
 |> Amusingly POSIX says the C standard takes precedence wrt the details of 
 |> gets() (and other library functions) and C18 abolished gets(). I'm 
 |> slightly surprised that the POSIX committee didn't see that coming and 
 |> include the change in the 2018 edition...

This week (on the 19th, to be exact) Geoff Clare made official the
desire to align a forthcoming POSIX Issue 8 with ISO C17.
Current POSIX (1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2) still aligns with C99.

And, compared to C99, the POSIX wording causes sympathy

d37021   APPLICATION USAGE
37022         Reading a line that overflows the array pointed to by s results in undefined behavior. The use of
37023         fgets( ) is recommended.
37024               Since the user cannot specify the length of the buffer passed to gets( ), use of this function is
37025               discouraged. The length of the string read is unlimited. It is possible to overflow this buffer in
37026               such a way as to cause applications to fail, or possible system security violations.
37027               Applications should use the fgets( ) function instead of the obsolescent gets( ) function.
37028   RATIONALE
37029         The standard developers decided to mark the gets( ) function as obsolescent even though it is in
37030         the ISO C standard due to the possibility of buffer overflow.
37031   FUTURE DIRECTIONS
37032         The gets( ) function may be removed in a future version.

 |Didn't know that gets() had finally been abolished; it's possibly the most 
 |unsafe function (OK, macro) on the planet.  I've long been tempted to 
 |remove gets() and see what breaks...

It seems to have been removed in C 2011, except get_s(), which is
still present in the C 2017 draft that i have.  (I have never used
any of the _s() functions.)

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Fri Nov 22 07:51:56 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:51:56 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <E11541B4-5A8C-4C51-A72A-1677E547C3F4@yaccman.com>
References: <977155D5-559B-4850-8D65-F0D6FA043A25@cheswick.com>
 <E11541B4-5A8C-4C51-A72A-1677E547C3F4@yaccman.com>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp-nHx9_a7C-jYtjDYOEAb3ouWz4+3GnMNXO1MeR0Be-Dw@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps I should have said "The Big Enchilada", although I have only
second-hand information that that uniquely identified Bob Morris.

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 1:13 PM Steve Johnson <scj at yaccman.com> wrote:

> Not everyone at the labs had a three-letter login.  Bjarne Stroustrup had
> the login bs, despite several gentle suggestions from myself and others
> that he add a middle initial...
> Steve
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:18 AM, William Cheswick <ches at cheswick.com> wrote:
> >
> > ﻿BTW, Bob Morris was not a Senior, and had no middle name.  It is my
> understanding that he inserted an “h” when a middle initial was demanded at
> the Labs, hence “rhm”.
> >
> > His son is Robert Tappan Morris, Labs login and general tag “rtm," is
> not a junior.
> >
> > (I had to fight spelling correction on this Mac so much for this post
> that I have turned it off.)
> >
> >> On Nov 12, 2019, at 8:43 PM, John P. Linderman <jpl.jpl at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Lorinda Cherry told me that that RTM (senior) used to test people's
> programs by feeding them to themselves as input, a.out < a.out. It helped
> cure people of the assumption that a program would only see "reasonable"
> inputs.
> >
>
>
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From dave at horsfall.org  Fri Nov 22 08:06:42 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 09:06:42 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] buffer overflow (Re: Happy birthday Morris worm
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrzei=PTDt1Jwgy-rMJe+odBK8gDZpUePOi9+QzMkM6nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1573592179.5935.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <20191112221053.C2009156E80B@mail.bitblocks.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911130944090.11612@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.20.1911191443530.10845@grey.csi.cam.ac.uk>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911220658250.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfrzei=PTDt1Jwgy-rMJe+odBK8gDZpUePOi9+QzMkM6nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911220904060.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Thu, 21 Nov 2019, Warner Losh wrote:

> A few things actually broke when FreeBSD removed it. Apart from 
> 'wrappers' that needed it for various reasons, it was only a few 
> programs in our 'ports' package that needed to be corrected.

FreeBSD prints a stern warning (both at compilation and execution) if you 
use it; I quickly fixed all my programs when I saw them :-)

> Most people have moved on with the 20 years of warnings when it was 
> used... Sadly only most...

Yep :-(

-- Dave

From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri Nov 22 13:24:04 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 20:24:04 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Irix on MIPS -- was kernel mode paged
In-Reply-To: <CAP6exYJXeDHfez=NKFHpNLaEcMjvpsipe8HKnhfmyi=e=D6ksQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP6exYJXeDHfez=NKFHpNLaEcMjvpsipe8HKnhfmyi=e=D6ksQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrdWv4JJcvpzsqAoX4+Vv6L4NQyG2xVBpoONBn7eJ6Ocw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 2:12 PM ron minnich <rminnich at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm looking for a reference to any Unix ports where the kernel ran in
> a non-paged address space and  user mode was paged. I could swear this
> was done at some point, and memory says it was on a soft-TLB system
> like the MIPS, to avoid TLB pollution and TLB fault overhead.
>
> But maybe I'm nuts. I am happy to hear either answer.
>

Mips had KSEG0 which didn't go through TLB and was mapped to physical
memory.  Some MIPS kernels ran in this space to avoid TLB issues...

Warner

>
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From dbrock at computerhistory.org  Sat Nov 23 00:29:16 2019
From: dbrock at computerhistory.org (David C. Brock)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 14:29:16 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Western Electric "Research Unix" License Contacts
Message-ID: <4B4A388452D2A7418879B110A352A8F4018878C992@EX-MB1.hq.computerhistory.org>

Dear All:

I was wondering if anyone had any first-hand information about the early decisions at Western Electric to make an education license for Unix that was both royalty-free and with an extremely modest “service charge”/delivery fee, or if anyone knows the names of key people who made these decisions.

Best wishes,

David
..............
David C. Brock
Director and Curator
Software History Center
Computer History Museum
computerhistory.org/softwarehistory<http://computerhistory.org/softwarehistory>
Email: dbrock at computerhistory.org
Twitter: @dcbrock
Skype: dcbrock
1401 N. Shoreline Blvd.
Mountain View, CA 94943
(650) 810-1010 main
(650) 810-1886 direct
Pronouns: he, him, his



From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Nov 23 01:34:04 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:34:04 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Western Electric "Research Unix" License Contacts
In-Reply-To: <4B4A388452D2A7418879B110A352A8F4018878C992@EX-MB1.hq.computerhistory.org>
References: <4B4A388452D2A7418879B110A352A8F4018878C992@EX-MB1.hq.computerhistory.org>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2NLhkB0sB3EK9LxCb2ysFB8UHk7e6jMwcuYQ1BQH5bC8g@mail.gmail.com>

I sent you some stuff privately, but the key point is that is was required
by the US Gov as part of the 1956 Consent decree.
AT&T had to make its IP available to the research community and licensable
under 'fair terms' which would be reviewed by the regulators.  Al Arms
wrote and administer the license BTW.  I've lost track of him.  I want to
say he may have passed, but I don't want to start a rumor.   You might
check with the Nokia folks, as I did not see him at the 50th and I would
have expected him there.

Clem

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 9:39 AM David C. Brock <dbrock at computerhistory.org>
wrote:

> Dear All:
>
> I was wondering if anyone had any first-hand information about the early
> decisions at Western Electric to make an education license for Unix that
> was both royalty-free and with an extremely modest “service
> charge”/delivery fee, or if anyone knows the names of key people who made
> these decisions.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> David
> ..............
> David C. Brock
> Director and Curator
> Software History Center
> Computer History Museum
> computerhistory.org/softwarehistory<
> http://computerhistory.org/softwarehistory>
> Email: dbrock at computerhistory.org
> Twitter: @dcbrock
> Skype: dcbrock
> 1401 N. Shoreline Blvd.
> Mountain View, CA 94943
> (650) 810-1010 main
> (650) 810-1886 direct
> Pronouns: he, him, his
>
>
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Nov 23 01:36:08 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 10:36:08 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Western Electric "Research Unix" License Contacts
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NLhkB0sB3EK9LxCb2ysFB8UHk7e6jMwcuYQ1BQH5bC8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B4A388452D2A7418879B110A352A8F4018878C992@EX-MB1.hq.computerhistory.org>
 <CAC20D2NLhkB0sB3EK9LxCb2ysFB8UHk7e6jMwcuYQ1BQH5bC8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Mrwx-VpmW5acVt6V3Dtju_hVYttUeb_cLMuvbusS4sbA@mail.gmail.com>

I should have said, 'licensable for commercial use.'  The most famous piece
of IP that came out of this agreement was not UNIX, but rather the
transistor.  The rest of the electronics community made way more money than
AT&T did on the transistor.

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 10:34 AM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:

> I sent you some stuff privately, but the key point is that is was required
> by the US Gov as part of the 1956 Consent decree.
> AT&T had to make its IP available to the research community and licensable
> under 'fair terms' which would be reviewed by the regulators.  Al Arms
> wrote and administer the license BTW.  I've lost track of him.  I want to
> say he may have passed, but I don't want to start a rumor.   You might
> check with the Nokia folks, as I did not see him at the 50th and I would
> have expected him there.
>
> Clem
>
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 9:39 AM David C. Brock <dbrock at computerhistory.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear All:
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone had any first-hand information about the early
>> decisions at Western Electric to make an education license for Unix that
>> was both royalty-free and with an extremely modest “service
>> charge”/delivery fee, or if anyone knows the names of key people who made
>> these decisions.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> David
>> ..............
>> David C. Brock
>> Director and Curator
>> Software History Center
>> Computer History Museum
>> computerhistory.org/softwarehistory<
>> http://computerhistory.org/softwarehistory>
>> Email: dbrock at computerhistory.org
>> Twitter: @dcbrock
>> Skype: dcbrock
>> 1401 N. Shoreline Blvd.
>> Mountain View, CA 94943
>> (650) 810-1010 main
>> (650) 810-1886 direct
>> Pronouns: he, him, his
>>
>>
>>
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From doug at cs.dartmouth.edu  Sat Nov 23 03:09:22 2019
From: doug at cs.dartmouth.edu (Doug McIlroy)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:09:22 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] edx prize
Message-ID: <201911221709.xAMH9MEK081900@tahoe.cs.Dartmouth.EDU>

Tangential, but interesting:
https://blog.edx.org/congratulations-edx-prize-2019-winners/

Where would you expect a MOOC about C to originate? Not, it
turns out, in a computer-science department. Professor
Bonfert-Taylor is a mathematician in the school of
engineering at Dartmouth.

Doug

From jra at andrusk.com  Sat Nov 23 06:18:06 2019
From: jra at andrusk.com (Justin R. Andrusk)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 20:18:06 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
 <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org>
Message-ID: <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 04:58:01PM +0100, Leah Neukirchen wrote:
> 
> arnold at skeeve.com writes:
> 
> > Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I keep a copy of the utzoo files. 
> >
> > Any chance of getting them to Warren for storage? Or are they
> > generally available somewhere?
> 
> They are also on archive.org:
> https://archive.org/details/utzoo-wiseman-usenet-archive
> 
> --
> Leah Neukirchen  <leah at vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/

I'm half tempted to take the archive.org Usenet files and throw them
into Elasticsearch and create a web front end for searching. Storage
would be expensive, but search would rock!

Justin


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Nov 23 06:38:05 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 12:38:05 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAK7dMtBEbVCF5QRV9BFNtxhVHCaPPNadXZuSwQToaU9_9Nzg3w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNH+FHo8cHMP4xjbEdjj4c5D78kkHQs9m_dVXxP5pyWtpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC20D2PNgQFLxjx7eUK-Q7BVL-5xSyx2JUk46oTSV=wekAg1eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <86352c85-1b06-6035-de4a-5b5a64f1cf98@technologists.com>
 <20191106000600.GD26959@mit.edu>
 <479EA77E-E0A7-4B27-AEBB-42948309C03E@technologists.com>
 <CACytpF87sSza+jiOrurX_H39p6jgwCW92oY1Twgy_qoPYB2p2w@mail.gmail.com>
 <03867014-5806-aa15-f4e4-db5fe1c376a5@bitsavers.org>
 <CAEoi9W6Nwj-qMRNoC-bxdxuC7s6E1TSRo3dkzKMnzSxoheLm5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53d38627-c24c-2f74-9eaa-3784b32ace70@bitsavers.org>



On 11/21/19 3:58 AM, Dan Cross wrote:

> But anyway, there was no hypervisor involved.

Sorry, got it mixed up in my mind with aix
I had remembered bits of the kernel were missing, but I forgot why.




From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 06:49:58 2019
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 15:49:58 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org> <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org>
 <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBdEjphCq9YHZoA1nTj+4uY=YUnm7f9Z5etKjz-fXpC52w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 at 15:19, Justin R. Andrusk <jra at andrusk.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 04:58:01PM +0100, Leah Neukirchen wrote:
> >
> > arnold at skeeve.com writes:
> >
> > > Jason Stevens <jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> I keep a copy of the utzoo files.
> > >
> > > Any chance of getting them to Warren for storage? Or are they
> > > generally available somewhere?
> >
> > They are also on archive.org:
> > https://archive.org/details/utzoo-wiseman-usenet-archive
> >
> > --
> > Leah Neukirchen  <leah at vuxu.org>  https://leahneukirchen.org/
>
> I'm half tempted to take the archive.org Usenet files and throw them
> into Elasticsearch and create a web front end for searching. Storage
> would be expensive, but search would rock!
>

Has anyone definitely proven that any of the contents of these files are
not in the searchable Google Groups interface?  I don't really see any need
to duplicate their efforts.  I am 100% certain that Google got Deja News's
entire archive and 99% certain that it was fairly quickly supplemented with
the University of Toronto material provided by Henry Spencer.  Certainly
the headers in a thread like this would seem to indicate that the material
all came from utzoo:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/net.unix-wizards/krbEHGQ95_o/QaV2LNSeMlgJ
(see "show original" for any message in the dropdown box in the upper right
hand corner by the date).  While Google has not shown a tremendous deal of
interest in Groups over the years - notably, the search was very
lacking/incomplete at various points - I would think that there is now
enough acknowledgement of the historical importance of these messages that
Google would at the very least do their best to preserve what they have.  I
would also imagine that if someone else had approached them with a
substantial enough private archive that they would have accepted it, and
not necessarily done a huge press release depending on the time frame, but
that's pure supposition on my part.  It would be fascinating to look
through messages from before 1995 (when Deja News started archiving) to see
if any clues can be unearthed about message sources other than utzoo.

As somewhat of an aside, my father was the head sysadmin at Deja News at
the time of their purchase by Google and I may have recounted this story
before but it's worth sharing again. Google's entire purchase of Deja News
involved a couple of Google engineers flying to Austin with a large disk
array, letting it mirror over a weekend, and then flying back to
California.  Google did not, as far as I recall, take possession of any
physical assets whatsoever.

-Henry
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From norman at oclsc.org  Sat Nov 23 07:02:46 2019
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 16:02:46 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Western Electric "Research Unix" License Contacts
Message-ID: <1574456570.20402.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

Clem Cole:

  Al Arms
  wrote and administer the license BTW.

====

Aside for entertainment purposes: at one point, the root
password for the UNIX systems I ran in the Caltech High
Energy Physics group was derived from Al's name, but through
a level of punning indirection.  I believe Mark Bartelt
came up with it.

Later we decided to change it.  I believe I chose the
successor, which continued the UNIX-licensing scheme, but
in a different direction:

	*UiaTMoBL

The systems that had either of these passwords are long-
since turned off.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From khm at sciops.net  Sat Nov 23 07:06:45 2019
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:06:45 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBdEjphCq9YHZoA1nTj+4uY=YUnm7f9Z5etKjz-fXpC52w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
 <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org> <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
 <CAEdTPBdEjphCq9YHZoA1nTj+4uY=YUnm7f9Z5etKjz-fXpC52w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191122210645.GB37773@wopr>

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 03:49:58PM -0500, Henry Bent wrote:
> 
> Has anyone definitely proven that any of the contents of these files are
> not in the searchable Google Groups interface?  I don't really see any need
> to duplicate their efforts. 

That data is essentially unavailable to people without Google accounts.
Even back when it was, the search had degraded to the point where you
could paste explicit quotes from messages and those messages would not
be in the results page.

I wholeheartedly see a need to duplicate (and surpass) their efforts. The 
Deja News service was wonderful; Google's implementation is not.  Even if
someon were to convince them to improve it, they've demonstrated they're
not a good company to rely on for long-term availability of services
that are not active surveillance vehicles.

khm

From lm at mcvoy.com  Sat Nov 23 07:32:38 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:32:38 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191122210645.GB37773@wopr>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
 <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org> <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
 <CAEdTPBdEjphCq9YHZoA1nTj+4uY=YUnm7f9Z5etKjz-fXpC52w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191122210645.GB37773@wopr>
Message-ID: <20191122213238.GC16255@mcvoy.com>

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 01:06:45PM -0800, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 03:49:58PM -0500, Henry Bent wrote:
> > 
> > Has anyone definitely proven that any of the contents of these files are
> > not in the searchable Google Groups interface?  I don't really see any need
> > to duplicate their efforts. 
> 
> That data is essentially unavailable to people without Google accounts.
> Even back when it was, the search had degraded to the point where you
> could paste explicit quotes from messages and those messages would not
> be in the results page.
> 
> I wholeheartedly see a need to duplicate (and surpass) their efforts. The 
> Deja News service was wonderful; Google's implementation is not.  Even if
> someon were to convince them to improve it, they've demonstrated they're
> not a good company to rely on for long-term availability of services
> that are not active surveillance vehicles.

Amen.

From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 08:21:20 2019
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 17:21:20 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191122210645.GB37773@wopr>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org> <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org>
 <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
 <CAEdTPBdEjphCq9YHZoA1nTj+4uY=YUnm7f9Z5etKjz-fXpC52w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191122210645.GB37773@wopr>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBe=ebY6sFbMX7WRp9ZQJuC7Y_7rYACpi5gVt0xPKayjfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, 22 Nov 2019 at 16:06, Kurt H Maier <khm at sciops.net> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 03:49:58PM -0500, Henry Bent wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone definitely proven that any of the contents of these files are
> > not in the searchable Google Groups interface?  I don't really see any
> need
> > to duplicate their efforts.
>
> That data is essentially unavailable to people without Google accounts.
>

Why do you say that?  I used a browser that was fully logged out of Google
and in paranoid/private settings mode and I could browse newsgroups, do
basic searching, etc. eg:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/net.unix-wizards/iris%7Csort:date


> Even back when it was, the search had degraded to the point where you
> could paste explicit quotes from messages and those messages would not
> be in the results page.
>

I alluded to this sort of problem in my previous email, but in my recent
experience the search results have been satisfactory and I consider the
degraded search problem resolved.  I have been able to search for very
precise text strings with entirely satisfactory results over the last few
months.

-Henry
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From krewat at kilonet.net  Sat Nov 23 09:21:49 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 18:21:49 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org> <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org>
 <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
Message-ID: <d8dc0b57-6777-1b30-75a9-ab720a8e2f5c@kilonet.net>

On 11/22/2019 3:18 PM, Justin R. Andrusk wrote:
> I'm half tempted to take the archive.org Usenet files and throw them
> into Elasticsearch and create a web front end for searching. Storage
> would be expensive, but search would rock!

Can we run multiple nodes of Elastic, and replicate between each other?

I just recently started playing with it, it's quite impressive. Except 
for that one logstash file "read" mode that by default deletes the file 
once it's done with it (a 4-year-long access.log that I wanted to read in).

anyway.

art k.


From khm at sciops.net  Sat Nov 23 10:00:34 2019
From: khm at sciops.net (Kurt H Maier)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 16:00:34 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <CAEdTPBe=ebY6sFbMX7WRp9ZQJuC7Y_7rYACpi5gVt0xPKayjfw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
 <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org> <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
 <CAEdTPBdEjphCq9YHZoA1nTj+4uY=YUnm7f9Z5etKjz-fXpC52w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191122210645.GB37773@wopr>
 <CAEdTPBe=ebY6sFbMX7WRp9ZQJuC7Y_7rYACpi5gVt0xPKayjfw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191123000034.GC37773@wopr>

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 05:21:20PM -0500, Henry Bent wrote:
> 
> Why do you say that?  I used a browser that was fully logged out of Google
> and in paranoid/private settings mode and I could browse newsgroups, do
> basic searching, etc. eg:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/net.unix-wizards/iris%7Csort:date

Clicking on any entry in those search results prompts me to log in.
Suffice it to say it is not satisfactory; TUHS is not the place to debug
Google's software for them, so I'll drop the matter.

I am willing to help any effort to make this data available in less
painful formats or protocols.  Feel free to reach out, anyone.

khm

From tytso at mit.edu  Sat Nov 23 11:36:22 2019
From: tytso at mit.edu (Theodore Y. Ts'o)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 20:36:22 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191123000034.GC37773@wopr>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
 <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org> <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
 <CAEdTPBdEjphCq9YHZoA1nTj+4uY=YUnm7f9Z5etKjz-fXpC52w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191122210645.GB37773@wopr>
 <CAEdTPBe=ebY6sFbMX7WRp9ZQJuC7Y_7rYACpi5gVt0xPKayjfw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191123000034.GC37773@wopr>
Message-ID: <20191123013622.GC8852@mit.edu>

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 04:00:34PM -0800, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 05:21:20PM -0500, Henry Bent wrote:
> > 
> > Why do you say that?  I used a browser that was fully logged out of Google
> > and in paranoid/private settings mode and I could browse newsgroups, do
> > basic searching, etc. eg:
> > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/net.unix-wizards/iris%7Csort:date
> 
> Clicking on any entry in those search results prompts me to log in.
> Suffice it to say it is not satisfactory; TUHS is not the place to debug
> Google's software for them, so I'll drop the matter.

All I can say is that's not my experience.  I just dropped the above
link into an incognito browser window (so no cookies, logins, etc.),
and I was able to click on any of those links and read them.

Cheers,

					- Ted


From jra at andrusk.com  Sat Nov 23 11:32:16 2019
From: jra at andrusk.com (Justin R. Andrusk)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 01:32:16 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <d8dc0b57-6777-1b30-75a9-ab720a8e2f5c@kilonet.net>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
 <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org> <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
 <d8dc0b57-6777-1b30-75a9-ab720a8e2f5c@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <20191123013213.GA30784@hal9k>

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 06:21:49PM -0500, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> 
> On 11/22/2019 3:18 PM, Justin R. Andrusk wrote:
> > I'm half tempted to take the archive.org Usenet files and throw them
> > into Elasticsearch and create a web front end for searching. Storage
> > would be expensive, but search would rock!
> 
> Can we run multiple nodes of Elastic, and replicate between each other?
> 
> I just recently started playing with it, it's quite impressive. Except
> for that one logstash file "read" mode that by default deletes the file
> once it's done with it (a 4-year-long access.log that I wanted to read in).
> 
> anyway.
> 
> art k.

Yes, that's how the clustering works with Elasticsearch. You setup
multiple nodes that are part of a cluster and data is replicated across
all of them. If one goes down, you don't lose any data as the others
will reconstitute the data. 

Going to look at adding the Usenet data to a Graylog instance as that
uses Elasticsearch as a backend and the front end UI is already there to
give you a GUI for searching and doing analytics on what you send to it.

Justin


From jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com  Sat Nov 23 11:48:07 2019
From: jsteve at superglobalmegacorp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 01:48:07 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191122213238.GC16255@mcvoy.com>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org> <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org>
 <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
 <CAEdTPBdEjphCq9YHZoA1nTj+4uY=YUnm7f9Z5etKjz-fXpC52w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191122210645.GB37773@wopr> <20191122213238.GC16255@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <ADFDF14544A65F35.9b4bc5f3-105c-4e58-8ebd-e2b835dfd175@mail.outlook.com>

I for one believe in duplication, and not relying on a single source. 
All the artifacts survive today because they were scattered to the winds and found again. 
Plus when building a database having 10gb of human entered data is invaluable. 
I should add that the first public listing of hack on Google is missing the last part.  But it's in the utzoo archive. 
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Hack_1.0

So the google stuff is incomplete. 
Besides it's fun to re-read the world when the rumours of Spocks iniment death in the next movie circulated, and fans petitioned to save him, or even the fallout of Tienemen square, and how it parallels in reddit.  
I should also add now that Intel is purging all their old drivers and documents online, even a company with a vested interest in their own past doesn't care. 
Google is sunsetting their cloud printing after being up for a decade. It's only a matter of time before they find past free speech inconvenient and problematic and terminate groups. 
TLDR is that data needs to be shared, not made inaccessible by one company, and the Google usenet thing is incomplete. 



On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 5:33 AM +0800, "Larry McVoy" <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:










On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 01:06:45PM -0800, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 03:49:58PM -0500, Henry Bent wrote:
> > 
> > Has anyone definitely proven that any of the contents of these files are
> > not in the searchable Google Groups interface?  I don't really see any need
> > to duplicate their efforts. 
> 
> That data is essentially unavailable to people without Google accounts.
> Even back when it was, the search had degraded to the point where you
> could paste explicit quotes from messages and those messages would not
> be in the results page.
> 
> I wholeheartedly see a need to duplicate (and surpass) their efforts. The 
> Deja News service was wonderful; Google's implementation is not.  Even if
> someon were to convince them to improve it, they've demonstrated they're
> not a good company to rely on for long-term availability of services
> that are not active surveillance vehicles.

Amen.





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From lm at mcvoy.com  Sat Nov 23 13:45:28 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 19:45:28 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <ADFDF14544A65F35.9b4bc5f3-105c-4e58-8ebd-e2b835dfd175@mail.outlook.com>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
 <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org> <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
 <CAEdTPBdEjphCq9YHZoA1nTj+4uY=YUnm7f9Z5etKjz-fXpC52w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191122210645.GB37773@wopr> <20191122213238.GC16255@mcvoy.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.9b4bc5f3-105c-4e58-8ebd-e2b835dfd175@mail.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20191123034528.GE16255@mcvoy.com>

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 01:48:07AM +0000, Jason Stevens wrote:
> Plus when building a database having 10gb of human entered data is invaluable.??

I agree even though it is self serving.  I'm the guy that posted something
on soc.singles and disappeared off usenet for three months (was installing
Unix on a supercomputer at the Tokyo Institute of Technology, no UUCP,
no Usenet).

I came back and people were *still* arguing about what I said.  Huh.

I don't really care for me at this point, but I'd love for my kids
to learn about me through all those posts.  soc.singles was a 
distraction, comp.arch, comp.unix-wizards, there is a pretty big
window into who I am in those posts.  I've been reading 30-35 year
old posts I made, and while I'm ashamed of how cocky I was, there
was some substance there.  

So I'd love an interface like dejanews had.  You could limit to a
set of groups (I don't remember how you did that but it was a thing)
and you could limit it over a date range, and of course you could
search by string.  I think there was more ways to tailor the search.

If I can offer up some help getting this back, let me know.  

--lm

From gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 23 14:40:29 2019
From: gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com (Gregg Levine)
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 23:40:29 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2P7NkytxA8gmKdpkpHfm6D1RXuBCp2tabj6ieRkd7EKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191121195327.0C30918C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAC20D2P7NkytxA8gmKdpkpHfm6D1RXuBCp2tabj6ieRkd7EKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC5iaNFu2R+FzLjvkdcnim3KPcN+Zw9vqSVrXBZb80D25Uq4Wg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello!
Clem by chance do you remember what the error message response was? It
would be interesting to see what phrases were used. For example, on
the IBM side of things, a fellow Adam and I both know, coded an entire
application so that everything it said and did would be in Klingonese.
No I do not remember which one it was, and what have you, I only
remember it surfacing during his talk at the IBM offices here in town,
during the early years of running Tux on the IBM S/390 systems.

I also find it strange that sometimes even Google is thinking in that language.
-----
Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
"This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."

On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 3:09 PM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 2:53 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>>
>>     > From: Arnold Robbins
>>
>>     > The Bell Labs guys in some ways were too.
>>
>> And there's the famous? story about the Multics error messages in Latin,
>> courtesty of Bernie Greenberg. One actually appeared at a customer site once,
>> whereupon hilarity ensued.
>
> One of my favorite stories of the same vein was a masscomp story.   We were chasing a rare event (as I recall it was when we first were debugging Multiprocessor stuff and it a lock order problem).  But we could not get the customers to tell us about what was happening, since the system recovered quickly, but we might kill a process. We had done a few releases and make a few changes but we could never reproduce it.
>
> I never knew who it was but someone ??Jack Burness if I had to guess?? put out a patch with a couple of error messages in Klingon and dumped a bunch of information.  Sure enough this was noticed, customer stopped, we got the needed data, as they reported the error.  But it was a high visibility customer, so the president (Mr. Potatohead) got a phone call.   Fossil (our boss) made us swear it would never happen again, but he defended us to the President.   We found the bug ;-)

From wkt at tuhs.org  Sat Nov 23 14:42:34 2019
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 14:42:34 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191123034528.GE16255@mcvoy.com>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org>
 <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org> <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
 <CAEdTPBdEjphCq9YHZoA1nTj+4uY=YUnm7f9Z5etKjz-fXpC52w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191122210645.GB37773@wopr> <20191122213238.GC16255@mcvoy.com>
 <ADFDF14544A65F35.9b4bc5f3-105c-4e58-8ebd-e2b835dfd175@mail.outlook.com>
 <20191123034528.GE16255@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <20191123044234.GA31230@minnie.tuhs.org>

All, netnews is a bit off-topic for TUHS so perhaps -> COFF?
Thanks, Warren

From clemc at ccc.com  Sat Nov 23 22:51:33 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 07:51:33 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] AOS and IBM/RT [Re: Amdahl UTS, AIX/370, AIX/ESA
In-Reply-To: <CAC5iaNFu2R+FzLjvkdcnim3KPcN+Zw9vqSVrXBZb80D25Uq4Wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20191121195327.0C30918C080@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
 <CAC20D2P7NkytxA8gmKdpkpHfm6D1RXuBCp2tabj6ieRkd7EKCQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAC5iaNFu2R+FzLjvkdcnim3KPcN+Zw9vqSVrXBZb80D25Uq4Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OdTu9HH_g7_3oPFsY8apiFNGyRyaEpr+hS7E0StMqDoQ@mail.gmail.com>

No I don't remember Many details on this one as I did not do it.  As I said
I think it was a Burness message in the graphics subsystem, but I cannot
swear to it.     I just remember the time frame and what happened.  Roger
Gourd's reaction was priceless when Mr Potatohead called us on it.  It was
one of the times I really learned to respect Roger.

That said, Ill see what I can find by asking around.

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM Gregg Levine <gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello!
> Clem by chance do you remember what the error message response was? It
> would be interesting to see what phrases were used. For example, on
> the IBM side of things, a fellow Adam and I both know, coded an entire
> application so that everything it said and did would be in Klingonese.
> No I do not remember which one it was, and what have you, I only
> remember it surfacing during his talk at the IBM offices here in town,
> during the early years of running Tux on the IBM S/390 systems.
>
> I also find it strange that sometimes even Google is thinking in that
> language.
> -----
> Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8 at gmail.com
> "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 3:09 PM Clem Cole <clemc at ccc.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 2:53 PM Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>     > From: Arnold Robbins
> >>
> >>     > The Bell Labs guys in some ways were too.
> >>
> >> And there's the famous? story about the Multics error messages in Latin,
> >> courtesty of Bernie Greenberg. One actually appeared at a customer site
> once,
> >> whereupon hilarity ensued.
> >
> > One of my favorite stories of the same vein was a masscomp story.   We
> were chasing a rare event (as I recall it was when we first were debugging
> Multiprocessor stuff and it a lock order problem).  But we could not get
> the customers to tell us about what was happening, since the system
> recovered quickly, but we might kill a process. We had done a few releases
> and make a few changes but we could never reproduce it.
> >
> > I never knew who it was but someone ??Jack Burness if I had to guess??
> put out a patch with a couple of error messages in Klingon and dumped a
> bunch of information.  Sure enough this was noticed, customer stopped, we
> got the needed data, as they reported the error.  But it was a high
> visibility customer, so the president (Mr. Potatohead) got a phone call.
>  Fossil (our boss) made us swear it would never happen again, but he
> defended us to the President.   We found the bug ;-)
>
-- 
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
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From reed at reedmedia.net  Sun Nov 24 01:02:31 2019
From: reed at reedmedia.net (reed at reedmedia.net)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 09:02:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [TUHS] Western Electric "Research Unix" License Contacts
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2NLhkB0sB3EK9LxCb2ysFB8UHk7e6jMwcuYQ1BQH5bC8g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B4A388452D2A7418879B110A352A8F4018878C992@EX-MB1.hq.computerhistory.org>
 <CAC20D2NLhkB0sB3EK9LxCb2ysFB8UHk7e6jMwcuYQ1BQH5bC8g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.NEB.2.21.1911230749080.24191@t1.m.reedmedia.net>

Any more details about this?

The Dec. 1973 agreement with Univ. of California is "solely for 
academic and educational purposes" and included "source program code". 
(Their initial installs were 4th edition.)

The slightly revised Dec. 1974 agreement with Katholieke Universiteit
is also solely for academic and educational purposes" with nominal 
service charge of $150. (This was signed in February 1975 a little 
before the 6th edition came out.)

I read multiple times that the first "source" licensee may have been the 
Univ. of Illinois. But I also read they were the first "source" licensee 
for the "5th" edition so not any Unix source license in general. 

Was Univ. of Illinois the first source licensee regardless of the 
edition (so prior to Dec. 1973 / Jan. 1974)?  Any docs/citations on 
this?

https://web.archive.org/web/20160322042314/http://www.ece.ubc.ca/~gillies/mail/dbgillies_ken_thompson.txt
 suggests the agreement with Univ. of Illinois happened a few months 
before July 1975, so maybe it couldn't have been the first (since there 
are copies of agreements prior years with other schools) even though 
that says the first.

The (Univ. of Illinois) Network UNIX RFC 681 is dated March 18, 1975 and 
NIC 32157 dated May 14, 1975. It references Fifth Edition and has:

   BELL'S POLICY IN THE PAST HAS BEEN TO LISCENSE THE SYSTEM TO 
   UNIVERSITIES FOR A NOMINAL FEE, $150.00, AND UNFORTUNATELY FOR A COST 
   OF $20,000.00 TO "NONUNIVERSITY" INSTITUTIONS.

Since the NIC has later date that the RFC maybe this was updated later 
than the RFC date so the commercial cost is really about the 6th 
edition?

Does anyone have a copy of the software agreement for a non-university, 
or without the "solely for academic" clause, or for $20,000 from early 
1975 (or for 5th edition)?

This 1983 Byte magazine article 
https://archive.org/stream/byte-magazine-1983-10/1983_10_BYTE_08-10_UNIX#page/n133/mode/2up 
says the 6th edition was first Unix to be sold to commercial firms. A 
company license was $20,000 and a educational license was $200.

Anyone have a copy of any 6th edition license agreement?
(The author of 
https://wiki.tuhs.org/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=publications:theses:gmp_thesis.pdf 
says has a copy signed May 12, 1977 but I couldn't get in contact with 
yet.)

I understand the agreement for 7th Edition included a clause saying a 
course curriculum couldn't discuss or describe the code. (John 
Lions clause).

Does anyone have a 7th edition license? (Educational or otherwise?) 
(Again the author of above thesis says has copy of a 7th edition 
education license signed Feb. 20, 1981.)

Does anyone have Exhibit F -- the "32V Software Agreement" dated April 
1, 1979 -- for the AT&T/USL vs. BSDI/Univ. of California Jun 1992 
complaint (or Exhibit B to the DeFazio Affidavit)? (See 
920724.complaint.txt and more details in 930107.amicus.txt and 
930108.oppose.txt.)  Or maybe the 1981 relicense?

What does it mean about the often mentioned first commercial 
version from AT&T wasn't until System III (Unix Release 3.0) in 1982?
This is confusing since documented references to commercial versions in 
early 1975.  Is this about AT&T proper instead of Bell Labs? Or maybe 
about official commercial support?

(RFC 681 which mentions the $20,000 non-university license fee also 
mentions RAND, Lincoln Laboratories, and Inco had Network UNIX source 
code, but unsure if that means that had the commercial license too. 
There are other commercial licenses long prior to System III, but maybe 
it is about professional support.)

From clemc at ccc.com  Sun Nov 24 07:25:08 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 16:25:08 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Western Electric "Research Unix" License Contacts
In-Reply-To: <alpine.NEB.2.21.1911230749080.24191@t1.m.reedmedia.net>
References: <4B4A388452D2A7418879B110A352A8F4018878C992@EX-MB1.hq.computerhistory.org>
 <CAC20D2NLhkB0sB3EK9LxCb2ysFB8UHk7e6jMwcuYQ1BQH5bC8g@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.NEB.2.21.1911230749080.24191@t1.m.reedmedia.net>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2Nr61SjjqJa5h4qZp4x_VLk1hRGQFX+wVEPH-a-tNgjfg@mail.gmail.com>

Jeremy,

I  have described much of this in previous messages.   So to recap....

The first licensee was Columbia University (Lou Katz), 4th Edition and I
>>believe<< Harvard was second, but it might have been someone else in
NYC.   I was always under the impression that Rand Corp was the first
commercial license, when a couple of Harvard Students wanted to bring it
west.   CMU, MIT, UofI were all about 1-3 years later.  I believe MIT and
CMU started with 5th edition and UofI 6th.  Chesson is no longer with us to
verify, but I think Steve Holmgren was in on that, and I believe I have
seem him on a couple of other mailing lists.  CMU was definitely 5th
edition to start, and quickly went to 6th.   MIT had it early also since,
like CMU, they had interns and OYOC students from the Labs, so code went
freely both ways in those days.

The redistribution license is a little more hazy. It was either Peter
Weiner at ISC or the folks at Wollongong.  I had always been under the
belief it was Peter, but Werner has some data that shows Wollongong was
either at the same time or shortly thereafter.   These were custom licenses
for V6 and its not clear about certain details and Werner seems to think
not exactly the same (*i.e.* Wollongong negotiated some special terms no
one else had).  Al Arms (AT&T legal) is likely to be the only person that
really knows for sure, as he was the common thread on all it in the early
days.

With Seventh Edition, Al wrote the first general commercial redistribution
license with sliding fees etc.   If you wanted a 7th edition license, any
previous licenses we voided.  There was great moaning about the fees.
 After about 6 months, Prof Dennis Allison of Stanford (who was consulting
for just about all of us in those days), brokered a meeting at Ricki's
Hyatt in Palo Alto, I want to say winter 1980.   This was the beginning of
the more global negotiation with what would become the System III license
(all flavors).  Again this license superseded all previous ones.

And thus the #1 president for the later OSF creation came into being, so
called: '*Stable Licensing Terms*.'  When the System V license was
released, AT&T changed things again.   By the time of SVR3 the
commercial folks had had enough and a war ensued.



On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:03 AM <reed at reedmedia.net> wrote:

> Any more details about this?
>
> The Dec. 1973 agreement with Univ. of California is "solely for
> academic and educational purposes" and included "source program code".
> (Their initial installs were 4th edition.)
>
> The slightly revised Dec. 1974 agreement with Katholieke Universiteit
> is also solely for academic and educational purposes" with nominal
> service charge of $150. (This was signed in February 1975 a little
> before the 6th edition came out.)
>
> I read multiple times that the first "source" licensee may have been the
> Univ. of Illinois. But I also read they were the first "source" licensee
> for the "5th" edition so not any Unix source license in general.
>
> Was Univ. of Illinois the first source licensee regardless of the
> edition (so prior to Dec. 1973 / Jan. 1974)?  Any docs/citations on
> this?
>
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20160322042314/http://www.ece.ubc.ca/~gillies/mail/dbgillies_ken_thompson.txt
>  suggests the agreement with Univ. of Illinois happened a few months
> before July 1975, so maybe it couldn't have been the first (since there
> are copies of agreements prior years with other schools) even though
> that says the first.
>
> The (Univ. of Illinois) Network UNIX RFC 681 is dated March 18, 1975 and
> NIC 32157 dated May 14, 1975. It references Fifth Edition and has:
>
>    BELL'S POLICY IN THE PAST HAS BEEN TO LISCENSE THE SYSTEM TO
>    UNIVERSITIES FOR A NOMINAL FEE, $150.00, AND UNFORTUNATELY FOR A COST
>    OF $20,000.00 TO "NONUNIVERSITY" INSTITUTIONS.
>
> Since the NIC has later date that the RFC maybe this was updated later
> than the RFC date so the commercial cost is really about the 6th
> edition?
>
> Does anyone have a copy of the software agreement for a non-university,
> or without the "solely for academic" clause, or for $20,000 from early
> 1975 (or for 5th edition)?
>
> This 1983 Byte magazine article
>
> https://archive.org/stream/byte-magazine-1983-10/1983_10_BYTE_08-10_UNIX#page/n133/mode/2up
> says the 6th edition was first Unix to be sold to commercial firms. A
> company license was $20,000 and a educational license was $200.
>
> Anyone have a copy of any 6th edition license agreement?
> (The author of
>
> https://wiki.tuhs.org/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=publications:theses:gmp_thesis.pdf
> says has a copy signed May 12, 1977 but I couldn't get in contact with
> yet.)
>
> I understand the agreement for 7th Edition included a clause saying a
> course curriculum couldn't discuss or describe the code. (John
> Lions clause).
>
> Does anyone have a 7th edition license? (Educational or otherwise?)
> (Again the author of above thesis says has copy of a 7th edition
> education license signed Feb. 20, 1981.)
>
> Does anyone have Exhibit F -- the "32V Software Agreement" dated April
> 1, 1979 -- for the AT&T/USL vs. BSDI/Univ. of California Jun 1992
> complaint (or Exhibit B to the DeFazio Affidavit)? (See
> 920724.complaint.txt and more details in 930107.amicus.txt and
> 930108.oppose.txt.)  Or maybe the 1981 relicense?
>
> What does it mean about the often mentioned first commercial
> version from AT&T wasn't until System III (Unix Release 3.0) in 1982?
> This is confusing since documented references to commercial versions in
> early 1975.  Is this about AT&T proper instead of Bell Labs? Or maybe
> about official commercial support?
>
> (RFC 681 which mentions the $20,000 non-university license fee also
> mentions RAND, Lincoln Laboratories, and Inco had Network UNIX source
> code, but unsure if that means that had the commercial license too.
> There are other commercial licenses long prior to System III, but maybe
> it is about professional support.)
>
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From krewat at kilonet.net  Sun Nov 24 08:25:45 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 17:25:45 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191123013213.GA30784@hal9k>
References: <ADFDF14544A65F35.2fa4e8c1-02e0-4b17-b0a1-e8f683a84d44@mail.outlook.com>
 <201911211323.xALDNP0u000778@freefriends.org> <87sgmh43xy.fsf@vuxu.org>
 <20191122201801.GA5637@hal9k>
 <d8dc0b57-6777-1b30-75a9-ab720a8e2f5c@kilonet.net>
 <20191123013213.GA30784@hal9k>
Message-ID: <e2eb13f4-c23a-919a-5406-900fecf618cd@kilonet.net>



On 11/22/2019 8:32 PM, Justin R. Andrusk wrote:
>
> Yes, that's how the clustering works with Elasticsearch. You setup
> multiple nodes that are part of a cluster and data is replicated across
> all of them. If one goes down, you don't lose any data as the others
> will reconstitute the data.
>
Yes, I know, I was legitimately asking ;)

art .k




From mparson at bl.org  Sun Nov 24 12:19:11 2019
From: mparson at bl.org (Michael Parson)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 20:19:11 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Steve Bellovin recounts the history of USENET
In-Reply-To: <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
References: <201911191901.xAJJ1d76006989@skeeve.com>
 <20191121031423.GC23794@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <4cea77334701f2c001f2715c6350534e@bl.org>

On 2019-11-20 21:14, Larry McVoy wrote:
> Yeah, I'd be super happy if he joined the list.  I enjoyed reading
> those, wished he had gone into more detail.
> 
> On the Usenet topic, does anyone remember dejanews?  Searchable
> archive of all the posts to Usenet.  Google bought them and then,
> so far as I know, the searchable part went away.

Deja News was a customer of the data center I worked at back in '97-'99, 
smartnap.net.  My usenet server fed directly into theirs, which made all 
of my other customers (and several other people on the net) want to peer 
with me, since one of the ways some people judged how "good" a usenet 
feed was was how quickly a post could be viewed on dejanews.com. They 
took up about 1/4 the space of our ~12k sq ft facility.

My current boss was one of the news admins there.  As I understood it, 
they had pretty much everything from when they started, plus had donated 
tapes of older stuff that they would periodically load up and add to the 
online bits.  By the time Google bought them, they'd dropped the 'News' 
part of their name and were focusing on being a product search engine 
under the name "Deja."  All Google was really interested in was the 
usenet archives.

> If someone knows how to search back to the beginnings of Usenet,
> my early tech life is all there, I'd love to be able to show my kids
> that.  Big arguing with Mash on comp.arch, following Guy Harris on
> comp.unix-wizards, etc.

Searching for an old username of mine on group.google.com finds posts I 
made in 1993, when I first started using usenet in college.

-- 
Michael Parson
Pflugerville, TX
KF5LGQ

From rich.salz at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 08:39:30 2019
From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Richard Salz)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 17:39:30 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
Message-ID: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>

Historically important he says. The guy had creds.
https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/1198706617967095809?s=19
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From lm at mcvoy.com  Mon Nov 25 08:52:39 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 14:52:39 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>

Good luck with that.  I had a 4/470 that had an exabyte, wheeled it out of
building 5 at Sun and into building 9 at SGI and the tapes wouldn't read
back.

On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 05:39:30PM -0500, Richard Salz wrote:
> Historically important he says. The guy had creds.
> https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/1198706617967095809?s=19

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From jcapp at anteil.com  Mon Nov 25 08:50:52 2019
From: jcapp at anteil.com (Jim Capp)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 17:50:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <32111433.6670.1574635852949.JavaMail.root@zimbraanteil>

I still have an exabyte scsi drive. You can read it with Linux. You just need a suitable SCSI card. tar/cpio all work as expected. 


From: "Richard Salz" <rich.salz at gmail.com> 
To: "TUHS main list" <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org> 
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 5:39:30 PM 
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte 


Historically important he says. The guy had creds. https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/1198706617967095809?s=19 
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From rp at servium.ch  Mon Nov 25 08:58:50 2019
From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 14:58:50 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CACwAiQ=ujdOwXAxKSuD9Tg5PAr2Hj2A0+LNRh42mAe-2VBLmVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 2:53 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> Good luck with that.  I had a 4/470 that had an exabyte, wheeled it out of
> building 5 at Sun and into building 9 at SGI and the tapes wouldn't read
> back.
>
We called them buffered dev-nulls.

TBH, that's what we called most tapes except for DLTs.



> On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 05:39:30PM -0500, Richard Salz wrote:
> > Historically important he says. The guy had creds.
> > https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/1198706617967095809?s=19
>
> --
> ---
> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>
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From clemc at ccc.com  Mon Nov 25 09:45:28 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 18:45:28 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <CACwAiQ=ujdOwXAxKSuD9Tg5PAr2Hj2A0+LNRh42mAe-2VBLmVQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <CACwAiQ=ujdOwXAxKSuD9Tg5PAr2Hj2A0+LNRh42mAe-2VBLmVQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2OwKGCe+7AHZj4j3Tn5RmP0MzPMZQnrw7_Eb5M-UmEE_Q@mail.gmail.com>

I have two and they have found them to be spotting years later.  I have
them in an FreeBSD box with SCSI.

On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:59 PM Rico Pajarola <rp at servium.ch> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 2:53 PM Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:
>
>> Good luck with that.  I had a 4/470 that had an exabyte, wheeled it out of
>> building 5 at Sun and into building 9 at SGI and the tapes wouldn't read
>> back.
>>
> We called them buffered dev-nulls.
>
> TBH, that's what we called most tapes except for DLTs.
>
>
>
>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 05:39:30PM -0500, Richard Salz wrote:
>> > Historically important he says. The guy had creds.
>> > https://twitter.com/textfiles/status/1198706617967095809?s=19
>>
>> --
>> ---
>> Larry McVoy                  lm at mcvoy.com
>> http://www.mcvoy.com/lm
>>
> --
Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual
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From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Nov 25 11:41:02 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:41:02 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:

> Good luck with that.  I had a 4/470 that had an exabyte, wheeled it out 
> of building 5 at Sun and into building 9 at SGI and the tapes wouldn't 
> read back.

I've had all sorts of problems with those drives.  Fortunately there was 
an Exabyte agent not far from us, so they got a lot of our business.

-- Dave

From ggm at algebras.org  Mon Nov 25 11:42:36 2019
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:42:36 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>

I just failed with a Sun DAT drive. Cable and card bought online,
recognized by the mt command, but all it does is eject tapes.

I am going to get a friend to come play with rubber bands and WD40 but
I'm not hopeful.

Bunch of data going to be rotting on tape.

-G

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:41 AM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:
>
> > Good luck with that.  I had a 4/470 that had an exabyte, wheeled it out
> > of building 5 at Sun and into building 9 at SGI and the tapes wouldn't
> > read back.
>
> I've had all sorts of problems with those drives.  Fortunately there was
> an Exabyte agent not far from us, so they got a lot of our business.
>
> -- Dave

From lm at mcvoy.com  Mon Nov 25 13:24:04 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 19:24:04 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>

So that sounds like a different problem.  People correct me if I'm
wrong but the exabyte drives seemed to have a head alignment problem.
If you bumped the drive, the head moved and it stayed moved.  So now
it can't read the tape because the head is offset.  I have no data to
support this but I suspect someone that really understood these drives
might be able to move the head back in alignment.


On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:42:36AM +1000, George Michaelson wrote:
> I just failed with a Sun DAT drive. Cable and card bought online,
> recognized by the mt command, but all it does is eject tapes.
> 
> I am going to get a friend to come play with rubber bands and WD40 but
> I'm not hopeful.
> 
> Bunch of data going to be rotting on tape.
> 
> -G
> 
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:41 AM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:
> >
> > > Good luck with that.  I had a 4/470 that had an exabyte, wheeled it out
> > > of building 5 at Sun and into building 9 at SGI and the tapes wouldn't
> > > read back.
> >
> > I've had all sorts of problems with those drives.  Fortunately there was
> > an Exabyte agent not far from us, so they got a lot of our business.
> >
> > -- Dave

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Nov 25 13:29:02 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:29:02 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, George Michaelson wrote:

> I just failed with a Sun DAT drive. Cable and card bought online, 
> recognized by the mt command, but all it does is eject tapes.

They're worse than 9-track tapes, and that's saying something :-)

Oh, if you must use one, make sure to use data-quality tapes, not the 
cheaper media.

-- Dave

From jon at fourwinds.com  Mon Nov 25 13:34:05 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 19:34:05 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte [ really bulk erasing ]
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <201911250334.xAP3Y5T0098307@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

Dave Horsfall writes:
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, George Michaelson wrote:
>
> > I just failed with a Sun DAT drive. Cable and card bought online, 
> > recognized by the mt command, but all it does is eject tapes.
>
> They're worse than 9-track tapes, and that's saying something :-)
>
> Oh, if you must use one, make sure to use data-quality tapes, not the 
> cheaper media.
>
> -- Dave

I have several generations of these too.  I also have several crates of
9-track tapes, QIC-24 tapes, QIC-150 tapes, and various generations of
DDS DAT tapes.  I don't think that I have anything worth keeping on these
as I've transfered worthwhile stuff to newer media over time.  Hard to
believe that the entire contents of a 9-track tape fit in a negligible
amount of memory these days.

The thing that's kept me from getting these out of my basement is that
I'd prefer to erase them first, just in case.  Does anybody have experience
with a decent bulk tape eraser?

Jon

From lm at mcvoy.com  Mon Nov 25 13:36:42 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 19:36:42 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20191125033642.GP18200@mcvoy.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 02:29:02PM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, George Michaelson wrote:
> 
> >I just failed with a Sun DAT drive. Cable and card bought online,
> >recognized by the mt command, but all it does is eject tapes.
> 
> They're worse than 9-track tapes, and that's saying something :-)

Really?  Are we talking about those tapes that looked like reel to reel
audio tapes but bigger?  Like this?

https://www.canajunfinances.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/9-Track-Tape.jpg

Because those are 1000x more reliable than an exabyte tape, they just 
worked.  Pretty much no matter what, you can spool up that tape and it
will read.  30 years later it will read.

Exabyte won't read 20 minutes later.

From pechter at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 13:59:19 2019
From: pechter at gmail.com (William Pechter)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 03:59:19 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte [ really bulk erasing ]
In-Reply-To: <201911250334.xAP3Y5T0098307@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>,
 <201911250334.xAP3Y5T0098307@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <SN6PR14MB21757EDA56AC618098B2D679FA4A0@SN6PR14MB2175.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

I was successful with a Radio Shack VHS tape eraser on floppy disks.  Should handle 8mm and DDS as well as VHS.  No guarantee of the quality of the wipe as far as data recovery on the tapes because I never had a drive working long enough to test at home.  Got DDS2 and exabyte jukeboxes but the drives crapped out.

Bill

William Pechter

________________________________
From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> on behalf of Jon Steinhart <jon at fourwinds.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2019 10:34:05 PM
To: The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte [ really bulk erasing ]

Dave Horsfall writes:
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, George Michaelson wrote:
>
> > I just failed with a Sun DAT drive. Cable and card bought online,
> > recognized by the mt command, but all it does is eject tapes.
>
> They're worse than 9-track tapes, and that's saying something :-)
>
> Oh, if you must use one, make sure to use data-quality tapes, not the
> cheaper media.
>
> -- Dave

I have several generations of these too.  I also have several crates of
9-track tapes, QIC-24 tapes, QIC-150 tapes, and various generations of
DDS DAT tapes.  I don't think that I have anything worth keeping on these
as I've transfered worthwhile stuff to newer media over time.  Hard to
believe that the entire contents of a 9-track tape fit in a negligible
amount of memory these days.

The thing that's kept me from getting these out of my basement is that
I'd prefer to erase them first, just in case.  Does anybody have experience
with a decent bulk tape eraser?

Jon
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From dave at horsfall.org  Mon Nov 25 14:53:20 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 15:53:20 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte [ really bulk erasing ]
In-Reply-To: <201911250334.xAP3Y5T0098307@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <201911250334.xAP3Y5T0098307@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251541460.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Jon Steinhart wrote:

> The thing that's kept me from getting these out of my basement is that 
> I'd prefer to erase them first, just in case.  Does anybody have 
> experience with a decent bulk tape eraser?

I had a bunch of tapes (some strange type for an early "home computer" 
belonging to my deceased father) that my brother wanted to bulk-erase, as 
they contained my father's business details etc.

Now, it transpired that one of my clients at the time happened to be a 
certain department of the police, that specialised in, err, phone-tapping 
in real time i.e. a known drug-dealer would use the phone, an alarm would 
go off, and away went the tape recorders (both cassette and mag) along 
with humans listening in.  I'm afraid that I can't say much more than 
that...

Anyway, into their bulk eraser went the tapes, and out came blanks.  This 
was confirmed when said brother decided to read a tape, and found that he 
couldn't :-)

So, if you happen to know someone in that area...

-- Dave

From clemc at ccc.com  Tue Nov 26 01:25:17 2019
From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 10:25:17 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte [ really bulk erasing ]
In-Reply-To: <SN6PR14MB21757EDA56AC618098B2D679FA4A0@SN6PR14MB2175.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <201911250334.xAP3Y5T0098307@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
 <SN6PR14MB21757EDA56AC618098B2D679FA4A0@SN6PR14MB2175.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAC20D2P+kM0GaV_7b-K8Ru1z5A7gZJvuyk9XGqBVxW20SjzHKw@mail.gmail.com>

Somewhere in the basement, I have tape eraser that was recommended by one
of my brothers (who ran KHOU's Sports department for 30 years and it was a
piece of gear they used all the time for professional video tapes). I
haven't used it much, but I have used it for 9-tracks and seems to have
worked.  FWIW: I got it here at a (in)famous local electronics place near
MIT (Eli Hefferon and Sons - 'A Nerdi Knight Holy Place')  I must have
gotten it in the early/mid 1980s for about $75, I remember it was much more
expensive than the Radio Shack thing - but my bro said it really worked.
 At the time I was doing some consulting for a NYC law firm and I had to
document to the courts that all the data I had been delivered was properly
destroyed.   They were satisfied and never heard anything more about it.

It seems to have erased everything have had near it when it on.  In fact, I
was always a little worried that it will erase unintended stuff too when I
use it.  It hums and vibrates on the table and you are supposed to move the
tape horizontal to it and make circular motions over it.  I had taken my
watch and wedding ring off the first time I ever tried it and it moved my
watch from a table about 3 feet away. I was pretty impressed.

On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 10:59 PM William Pechter <pechter at gmail.com> wrote:

> I was successful with a Radio Shack VHS tape eraser on floppy disks.
> Should handle 8mm and DDS as well as VHS.  No guarantee of the quality of
> the wipe as far as data recovery on the tapes because I never had a drive
> working long enough to test at home.  Got DDS2 and exabyte jukeboxes but
> the drives crapped out.
>
> Bill
>
> William Pechter
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> on behalf of Jon Steinhart <
> jon at fourwinds.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, November 24, 2019 10:34:05 PM
> *To:* The Eunuchs Hysterical Society <tuhs at tuhs.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte [ really bulk
> erasing ]
>
> Dave Horsfall writes:
> > On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, George Michaelson wrote:
> >
> > > I just failed with a Sun DAT drive. Cable and card bought online,
> > > recognized by the mt command, but all it does is eject tapes.
> >
> > They're worse than 9-track tapes, and that's saying something :-)
> >
> > Oh, if you must use one, make sure to use data-quality tapes, not the
> > cheaper media.
> >
> > -- Dave
>
> I have several generations of these too.  I also have several crates of
> 9-track tapes, QIC-24 tapes, QIC-150 tapes, and various generations of
> DDS DAT tapes.  I don't think that I have anything worth keeping on these
> as I've transfered worthwhile stuff to newer media over time.  Hard to
> believe that the entire contents of a 9-track tape fit in a negligible
> amount of memory these days.
>
> The thing that's kept me from getting these out of my basement is that
> I'd prefer to erase them first, just in case.  Does anybody have experience
> with a decent bulk tape eraser?
>
> Jon
>
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From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Nov 26 03:07:00 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 09:07:00 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>



On 11/24/19 7:24 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> So that sounds like a different problem.  People correct me if I'm
> wrong but the exabyte drives seemed to have a head alignment problem.

They are 8mm helical-head drives. they wouldn't go out of alignment by
bumping them, the worse would be the tape would lose tension if you
smacked the tensioning arms hard enough

They do have a lot of rubber parts inside.
Rollers crack and belts go soft. I have several dozen dead EX8200s from that.

I have a whole box of 8mm backup tapes that just came in, and a small
number of working drives. The Linux software I wrote to do 9 track tape recovery
from a SCSI 9 track drive works just fine on an Exabyte.

And I'm not offering to read Jason's mystery reels.






From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Nov 26 03:13:07 2019
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 09:13:07 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte [ really bulk erasing ]
In-Reply-To: <CAC20D2P+kM0GaV_7b-K8Ru1z5A7gZJvuyk9XGqBVxW20SjzHKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <201911250334.xAP3Y5T0098307@darkstar.fourwinds.com>
 <SN6PR14MB21757EDA56AC618098B2D679FA4A0@SN6PR14MB2175.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAC20D2P+kM0GaV_7b-K8Ru1z5A7gZJvuyk9XGqBVxW20SjzHKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2cd13c37-94d9-c813-dc43-c0cf7ed52640@bitsavers.org>

The radio shack 43-232's will take care of things, they just have limited duty-cycles
There are lots on eBay

Sometimes the pro ones for 1/2" tape show up that are about 12" square with a timer
I have one, but I've looked at the analog output of a 1/2" tape drive after a pass with
the RS, and there isn't much left.


On 11/25/19 7:25 AM, Clem Cole wrote:
> Somewhere in the basement, I have tape eraser that was recommended by one of my brothers


From krewat at kilonet.net  Tue Nov 26 03:40:22 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:40:22 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
 <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <96b55e5e-4b05-f7b7-c2ae-efdae7c18b2f@kilonet.net>

A few years back, I decided to go through my stack of 8mm 
Exabyte-written tapes... An early Exabyte 8200 2GB Exabyte drive was 
useless. A 2/5G drive worked.

There were errors on one or two tapes. But each and every one was an 
analog 8mm video tape, not a real data tape. And I was able to splice 
the backup set enough so that whatever it was written with would be 
happy enough to restore the data once pieced back together. A mix of 
tar, and ufsbackup for the most part.

During this process, I bought an Exabyte Mammoth off eBay - didn't use 
it much, but it read those old tapes just fine.

I was able to recover scads of personal stuff that I already had copies 
of, along with a few dumps of the USENET systems I was using to serve as 
a 3-modem BBS for USENET. And yes, sometimes, I go back into old backup 
tapes to recover data I already have on disk. I hate bit-rot, I do 
whatever I can to mitigate it.

art k.

PS: DAT 4mm tape drives, especially whatever Sun was using, were awful. 
Around 50% of them I dealt with all got into a mode within the first 
year where they would accept a tape, and just kick it back out right 
away. Because they were under support, they were just replaced, so I 
never looked into it hardware-wise.



On 11/25/2019 12:07 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>
> On 11/24/19 7:24 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
>> So that sounds like a different problem.  People correct me if I'm
>> wrong but the exabyte drives seemed to have a head alignment problem.
> They are 8mm helical-head drives. they wouldn't go out of alignment by
> bumping them, the worse would be the tape would lose tension if you
> smacked the tensioning arms hard enough
>
> They do have a lot of rubber parts inside.
> Rollers crack and belts go soft. I have several dozen dead EX8200s from that.
>
> I have a whole box of 8mm backup tapes that just came in, and a small
> number of working drives. The Linux software I wrote to do 9 track tape recovery
> from a SCSI 9 track drive works just fine on an Exabyte.
>
> And I'm not offering to read Jason's mystery reels.
>
>
>
>
>
>


From lm at mcvoy.com  Tue Nov 26 03:45:15 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 09:45:15 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <96b55e5e-4b05-f7b7-c2ae-efdae7c18b2f@kilonet.net>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
 <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
 <96b55e5e-4b05-f7b7-c2ae-efdae7c18b2f@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <20191125174515.GY18200@mcvoy.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:40:22PM -0500, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> PS: DAT 4mm tape drives, especially whatever Sun was using, were awful.

It's no secret that I enjoyed my years at Sun, but I can't defend these
drives, I had the same experience.  When I look back on it, the only
tapes that I remember being reliable where the 9 track reel to reel
and the QIC-150.  Once it got to GB sized tapes, everything seemed
like crap.

From jon at fourwinds.com  Tue Nov 26 03:49:10 2019
From: jon at fourwinds.com (Jon Steinhart)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 09:49:10 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <20191125174515.GY18200@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
 <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
 <96b55e5e-4b05-f7b7-c2ae-efdae7c18b2f@kilonet.net>
 <20191125174515.GY18200@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <201911251749.xAPHnAal230353@darkstar.fourwinds.com>

Larry McVoy writes:
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:40:22PM -0500, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> > PS: DAT 4mm tape drives, especially whatever Sun was using, were awful.
>
> It's no secret that I enjoyed my years at Sun, but I can't defend these
> drives, I had the same experience.  When I look back on it, the only
> tapes that I remember being reliable where the 9 track reel to reel
> and the QIC-150.  Once it got to GB sized tapes, everything seemed
> like crap.

Well, I'd say even from an audio perspective DATs were crap.  Just not a
good technology.  Before DATs I used Beta decks with a PCM-601ES for
audio; was better than DAT probably because of the larger geometry.  Same
reason that 9 track tapes last a long time - larger features.

In weird DAT tech, I have (although it's currently loaned out), one of the
SGI Archive Python drives that allows the DDS layer to be turned off so
that audio can be read and written directly.

From norman at oclsc.org  Tue Nov 26 04:12:08 2019
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 13:12:08 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
Message-ID: <1574705532.29583.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

Snotty remarks aside, I have a couple of Exabyte drives in my
home world.  They haven't been used for a long time, but when
they were (for some years I used them as a regular backup device)
they worked just fine.

I've pinged the guy.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From norman at oclsc.org  Tue Nov 26 04:18:26 2019
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 13:18:26 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte [ really bulk erasing ]
Message-ID: <1574705910.29838.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

I had a hand-held degausser, but lent it to someone years ago
and never got it back.

It was actually Exabyte that made me buy it.  I bought a new
8505 through a reseller to supersede the 8200 I was using for
home backups.  It turned out the 8505's firmware refused to
overwrite a tape already written at any but the highest density,
so I couldn't reuse any of my existing backup tapes.  Exabyte
insisted it was a feature, not a bug.  So I gave up and bought
a degausser so I could turn a used tape into a blank tape so
the damn tape drive would write on it.

For further vintage-computing amusement: I decided to buy at
that time because the reseller had arranged a deal with Exabyte:
trade in any old tape drive, working or not, and get a couple of
hundred bucks off on a brand-new 8505.  So I gave the reseller
an old, broken TK05 I had lying around.  My sales contact for
the reseller was a former service tech at the same company, so
I figured (correctly) he'd get the joke.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue Nov 26 04:29:34 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:29:34 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
 <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrAVTwJqfzntbkAj1tC3vTm=3u0Xoqu_ACGDvQv-79RKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 10:07 AM Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 11/24/19 7:24 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > So that sounds like a different problem.  People correct me if I'm
> > wrong but the exabyte drives seemed to have a head alignment problem.
>
> They are 8mm helical-head drives. they wouldn't go out of alignment by
> bumping them, the worse would be the tape would lose tension if you
> smacked the tensioning arms hard enough
>
> They do have a lot of rubber parts inside.
> Rollers crack and belts go soft. I have several dozen dead EX8200s from
> that.
>
> I have a whole box of 8mm backup tapes that just came in, and a small
> number of working drives. The Linux software I wrote to do 9 track tape
> recovery
> from a SCSI 9 track drive works just fine on an Exabyte.
>
> And I'm not offering to read Jason's mystery reels.
>

IIRC, the main issue from back in the day was different densities on the
same form-factor tapes. So if you want to the same model 8mm drive, it
works, if you go to a different (older?) model, it wouldn't. Eg, going from
the 8500 -> 8200 caused problems due to data density issues. IIRC, you
could write low density data tapes on the 8500 for interchange with the
8200, but it wasn't the default on some platforms?

But it's been a long time and my memory is hazy... so long that Exabyte
went bankrupt, several new tenants tried to rent the old space, the
developer that bought it at the exabyte firesale wen bankrupt too and the
new developers that bought it have torn down the old Exabyte offices in
Boulder and replaced it with a set of luxury apartments... I could be
misremembering...

Warner
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From krewat at kilonet.net  Tue Nov 26 04:34:33 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 13:34:33 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <20191125174515.GY18200@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
 <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
 <96b55e5e-4b05-f7b7-c2ae-efdae7c18b2f@kilonet.net>
 <20191125174515.GY18200@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <320e0de3-3bb5-4839-c209-1947efc89fdb@kilonet.net>

On 11/25/2019 12:45 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:40:22PM -0500, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>> PS: DAT 4mm tape drives, especially whatever Sun was using, were awful.
> It's no secret that I enjoyed my years at Sun, but I can't defend these
> drives, I had the same experience.  When I look back on it, the only
> tapes that I remember being reliable where the 9 track reel to reel
> and the QIC-150.  Once it got to GB sized tapes, everything seemed
> like crap.
>

The Exabyte 5GB and up stuff was pretty good. LTOs, after having worked 
with them for the past 13 years, I can definitely say, are quit awesome.

DLT tapes and especially robots, well, it took HP about 5 years to get 
the firmware right for a certain robot, the model of which, I don't 
recall ...

art k.


From rminnich at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 05:12:42 2019
From: rminnich at gmail.com (ron minnich)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 11:12:42 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Irix on MIPS -- was kernel mode paged
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrdWv4JJcvpzsqAoX4+Vv6L4NQyG2xVBpoONBn7eJ6Ocw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAP6exYJXeDHfez=NKFHpNLaEcMjvpsipe8HKnhfmyi=e=D6ksQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANCZdfrdWv4JJcvpzsqAoX4+Vv6L4NQyG2xVBpoONBn7eJ6Ocw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP6exYJfJ77nDuAyiti6MHwh5qVrOWf7vbqS9APsSqycQAfdHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ah thinks Warner, that was exactly what I was trying to recall.

And I am reminded as well how overloaded the term 'paged' is ... but
yeah, in this case, I was looking for examples where the kernel ran
with essentially no mmu but user programs did.

Note that on Alpha there was an identity mapped space with no MMU as
well but that was only for PAL mode and firmware that used PAL mode
(like LinuxBIOS).

On modern systems we have RISC-V with the no MMU M mode, and I just
got to thinking that running a kernel in M mode would be "what's old
is new again" :-)

Thanks


On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 7:24 PM Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 21, 2019, 2:12 PM ron minnich <rminnich at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm looking for a reference to any Unix ports where the kernel ran in
>> a non-paged address space and  user mode was paged. I could swear this
>> was done at some point, and memory says it was on a soft-TLB system
>> like the MIPS, to avoid TLB pollution and TLB fault overhead.
>>
>> But maybe I'm nuts. I am happy to hear either answer.
>
>
> Mips had KSEG0 which didn't go through TLB and was mapped to physical memory.  Some MIPS kernels ran in this space to avoid TLB issues...
>
> Warner

From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 07:08:20 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:08:20 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <320e0de3-3bb5-4839-c209-1947efc89fdb@kilonet.net>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
 <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
 <96b55e5e-4b05-f7b7-c2ae-efdae7c18b2f@kilonet.net>
 <20191125174515.GY18200@mcvoy.com>
 <320e0de3-3bb5-4839-c209-1947efc89fdb@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp_aAiGe03uqbZJvgb50U4Xu5DVaypG7KBao+Lp02XVfBA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not an expert on mag tapes, but it makes sense to me that 9-track
tapes, where the tracks "line up" when the tape is wound onto a reel,
suffer more "print-through" than helical scan tapes, where tracks are not
aligned with those under them on a reel. I recall a suggestion that 9-track
tapes should be mounted and rewound once in a while, to reduce
print-through. We used Exabytes for disk backups for years, back when tape
capacity exceeded disk capacity. I doubt I'll see that again, but, as noted
I'm not an expert on mag tapes.

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 1:35 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote:

> On 11/25/2019 12:45 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:40:22PM -0500, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> >> PS: DAT 4mm tape drives, especially whatever Sun was using, were awful.
> > It's no secret that I enjoyed my years at Sun, but I can't defend these
> > drives, I had the same experience.  When I look back on it, the only
> > tapes that I remember being reliable where the 9 track reel to reel
> > and the QIC-150.  Once it got to GB sized tapes, everything seemed
> > like crap.
> >
>
> The Exabyte 5GB and up stuff was pretty good. LTOs, after having worked
> with them for the past 13 years, I can definitely say, are quit awesome.
>
> DLT tapes and especially robots, well, it took HP about 5 years to get
> the firmware right for a certain robot, the model of which, I don't
> recall ...
>
> art k.
>
>
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From ron at ronnatalie.com  Tue Nov 26 07:11:34 2019
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:11:34 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <CAC0cEp_aAiGe03uqbZJvgb50U4Xu5DVaypG7KBao+Lp02XVfBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
 <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
 <96b55e5e-4b05-f7b7-c2ae-efdae7c18b2f@kilonet.net>
 <20191125174515.GY18200@mcvoy.com>
 <320e0de3-3bb5-4839-c209-1947efc89fdb@kilonet.net>
 <CAC0cEp_aAiGe03uqbZJvgb50U4Xu5DVaypG7KBao+Lp02XVfBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <125201d5a3d4$eb504c00$c1f0e400$@ronnatalie.com>

Our problem wasn’t so much that the Exabyte tapes would go bad as the drives themselves would keel over on a regular basis.   It’s pretty much what drove us away from them.    The intelligence community did a lot of studies on archival storage devices.    The fundamental truth was to keep refreshed in the online domain rather than spending ages on static media.

 

  

From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of John P. Linderman
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 4:08 PM
To: Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net>
Cc: The Unix Heritage Society <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
Subject: Re: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte

 

I'm not an expert on mag tapes, but it makes sense to me that 9-track tapes, where the tracks "line up" when the tape is wound onto a reel, suffer more "print-through" than helical scan tapes, where tracks are not aligned with those under them on a reel. I recall a suggestion that 9-track tapes should be mounted and rewound once in a while, to reduce print-through. We used Exabytes for disk backups for years, back when tape capacity exceeded disk capacity. I doubt I'll see that again, but, as noted I'm not an expert on mag tapes.

 

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 1:35 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net <mailto:krewat at kilonet.net> > wrote:

On 11/25/2019 12:45 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:40:22PM -0500, Arthur Krewat wrote:
>> PS: DAT 4mm tape drives, especially whatever Sun was using, were awful.
> It's no secret that I enjoyed my years at Sun, but I can't defend these
> drives, I had the same experience.  When I look back on it, the only
> tapes that I remember being reliable where the 9 track reel to reel
> and the QIC-150.  Once it got to GB sized tapes, everything seemed
> like crap.
>

The Exabyte 5GB and up stuff was pretty good. LTOs, after having worked 
with them for the past 13 years, I can definitely say, are quit awesome.

DLT tapes and especially robots, well, it took HP about 5 years to get 
the firmware right for a certain robot, the model of which, I don't 
recall ...

art k.

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From jpl.jpl at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 07:30:35 2019
From: jpl.jpl at gmail.com (John P. Linderman)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:30:35 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <125201d5a3d4$eb504c00$c1f0e400$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
 <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
 <96b55e5e-4b05-f7b7-c2ae-efdae7c18b2f@kilonet.net>
 <20191125174515.GY18200@mcvoy.com>
 <320e0de3-3bb5-4839-c209-1947efc89fdb@kilonet.net>
 <CAC0cEp_aAiGe03uqbZJvgb50U4Xu5DVaypG7KBao+Lp02XVfBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <125201d5a3d4$eb504c00$c1f0e400$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <CAC0cEp9m6XiX0KEeodLLgMs8mbhgfX3izHtMsV+oMAmRbhWzcA@mail.gmail.com>

Fair enough, Ron. I recall that we had to replace Exabyte drives more often
than 9-track drives. On the other hand, I don't recall ever having an
Exabyte tape go bad, or being unable to restore a lost file (or entire
drive). Replacing a drive was chump change compared to losing a drive.
Plus, the Exabyte tapes were compact, and could easily have a paper label
inserted to indicate what was on them when hundreds were stored
side-by-side on a shelf. My labels were roundly mocked by Tom Limoncelli in
one of his Sysadmin books, but when a user came in wanting a file restored,
being able to identify which tape contained the most recent backup was no
laughing matter (to the user).

On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 4:12 PM <ron at ronnatalie.com> wrote:

> Our problem wasn’t so much that the Exabyte tapes would go bad as the
> drives themselves would keel over on a regular basis.   It’s pretty much
> what drove us away from them.    The intelligence community did a lot of
> studies on archival storage devices.    The fundamental truth was to keep
> refreshed in the online domain rather than spending ages on static media.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> *On Behalf Of *John P.
> Linderman
> *Sent:* Monday, November 25, 2019 4:08 PM
> *To:* Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net>
> *Cc:* The Unix Heritage Society <tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
>
>
>
> I'm not an expert on mag tapes, but it makes sense to me that 9-track
> tapes, where the tracks "line up" when the tape is wound onto a reel,
> suffer more "print-through" than helical scan tapes, where tracks are not
> aligned with those under them on a reel. I recall a suggestion that 9-track
> tapes should be mounted and rewound once in a while, to reduce
> print-through. We used Exabytes for disk backups for years, back when tape
> capacity exceeded disk capacity. I doubt I'll see that again, but, as noted
> I'm not an expert on mag tapes.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 1:35 PM Arthur Krewat <krewat at kilonet.net> wrote:
>
> On 11/25/2019 12:45 PM, Larry McVoy wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 12:40:22PM -0500, Arthur Krewat wrote:
> >> PS: DAT 4mm tape drives, especially whatever Sun was using, were awful.
> > It's no secret that I enjoyed my years at Sun, but I can't defend these
> > drives, I had the same experience.  When I look back on it, the only
> > tapes that I remember being reliable where the 9 track reel to reel
> > and the QIC-150.  Once it got to GB sized tapes, everything seemed
> > like crap.
> >
>
> The Exabyte 5GB and up stuff was pretty good. LTOs, after having worked
> with them for the past 13 years, I can definitely say, are quit awesome.
>
> DLT tapes and especially robots, well, it took HP about 5 years to get
> the firmware right for a certain robot, the model of which, I don't
> recall ...
>
> art k.
>
>
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From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Nov 26 07:38:07 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 08:38:07 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <20191125174515.GY18200@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191125032404.GM18200@mcvoy.com>
 <0a6fb097-fe79-1633-0205-1c45f0a56953@bitsavers.org>
 <96b55e5e-4b05-f7b7-c2ae-efdae7c18b2f@kilonet.net>
 <20191125174515.GY18200@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911260832350.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:

> It's no secret that I enjoyed my years at Sun, but I can't defend these 
> drives, I had the same experience.  When I look back on it, the only 
> tapes that I remember being reliable where the 9 track reel to reel and 
> the QIC-150.  Once it got to GB sized tapes, everything seemed like 
> crap.

I see you've never enjoyed the thrills of "print through" on the 9-tracks, 
nor the build-up of gunk (the then Australian Atomic Energy Commission had 
a "tape cleaner" whereby the tape was basically run over a sharp blade).

And as for the QIC-150 drive that would occasionally fall back to what I 
would call a QIC-75 when presented with media previously written at a 
lower density...  I recall that an EPROM upgrade fixed that.

-- Dave

From dave at horsfall.org  Tue Nov 26 08:34:02 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 09:34:02 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <20191125033642.GP18200@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20191125033642.GP18200@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911260931120.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Larry McVoy wrote:

>> They're worse than 9-track tapes, and that's saying something :-)
>
> Really?  Are we talking about those tapes that looked like reel to reel 
> audio tapes but bigger?  Like this?
>
> https://www.canajunfinances.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/9-Track-Tape.jpg

Yes.

> Because those are 1000x more reliable than an exabyte tape, they just 
> worked.  Pretty much no matter what, you can spool up that tape and it 
> will read.  30 years later it will read.

Please read my reply about print-through, build-up of gunk, etc.  I'd be 
surprised if a 9-track was 100% readable 30 years on.

> Exabyte won't read 20 minutes later.

Bit of an exaggeration, but yes in principle.

-- Dave

From drb at msu.edu  Tue Nov 26 08:46:48 2019
From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 17:46:48 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 26 Nov 2019 09:34:02 +1100.)
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911260931120.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911260931120.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20191125033642.GP18200@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <20191125224649.3D1D125EDE8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu>

 > I'd be surprised if a 9-track was 100% readable 30 years on.

I've read quite a few of them, including some stored in crappy
conditions, without errors.  The stuff is pretty robust.  Sticky shed is
an issue, for which there are a number of palliative techniques.

De

From henry.r.bent at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 08:57:00 2019
From: henry.r.bent at gmail.com (Henry Bent)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 17:57:00 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <20191125033642.GP18200@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20191125033642.GP18200@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <CAEdTPBeab-_Ph=otE=ra5DHpnwDe-AUfLc0tVT_2-SBoMcpnPg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, 24 Nov 2019 at 22:37, Larry McVoy <lm at mcvoy.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 02:29:02PM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> > On Mon, 25 Nov 2019, George Michaelson wrote:
> >
> > >I just failed with a Sun DAT drive. Cable and card bought online,
> > >recognized by the mt command, but all it does is eject tapes.
> >
> > They're worse than 9-track tapes, and that's saying something :-)
>
> Really?  Are we talking about those tapes that looked like reel to reel
> audio tapes but bigger?  Like this?
>
> https://www.canajunfinances.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/9-Track-Tape.jpg
>
> Because those are 1000x more reliable than an exabyte tape, they just
> worked.  Pretty much no matter what, you can spool up that tape and it
> will read.  30 years later it will read.
>
> Exabyte won't read 20 minutes later.
>

I think that certain amount of the reliability issue, as far as both the
tapes and the drives are concerned, has to do with scale.  Those 8mm
Exabyte tapes (DDS tapes, too) are much thinner and hence more easily
damaged than a large 9 track reel.  If thin tape in a cartridge gets fouled
up past a certain point, forget it, there's no salvaging that cartridge.
If open reel tape gets damaged and you really need what's on it you can
hope that the mechanism can read past the damaged part (a possibility), or
as a last resort you could make a careful splice and then attempt to
retrieve the rest of the data.

One of the other issues, totally independent of tape, is the rubber chosen
by the manufacturers for the drive belts and rollers.  Some rubber, stored
properly, will still be in usable shape after twenty or thirty years.  The
rubber on the rollers of my Sun QIC-150 drive?  A goopy mess which rendered
the drive useless as well as a tape.

But yeah, about 15 years ago I was asked to retrieve some data from Exabyte
8200 tapes that had been written 10 years prior.  I went through three
drives and countless hours of frustration just to read a half-dozen tapes
with some really important information on them.  "Archive format" indeed.

-Henry
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From stewart at serissa.com  Tue Nov 26 11:38:20 2019
From: stewart at serissa.com (Lawrence Stewart)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 20:38:20 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911260931120.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251239090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAKr6gn23iVJ-UtkByz3xjfzzH8JEjr8v7BFc=MwnZ4=1=MVLxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911251426480.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <20191125033642.GP18200@mcvoy.com>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911260931120.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <1EFF5E89-CFFC-4D05-8A1C-57ECFF0607A8@serissa.com>

I deleted the original message, but I happened to find an Exabyte EX8505 SCSI drive in the basement just now…
Centronics style SCSI sconnectors.  I might have cables somewhere.

Pretty sure I used it in the ‘0’s from a linux system or laptop, since I’ve never had a Sun.

Who wanted one?

-Larry


From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Nov 27 07:10:50 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 08:10:50 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] FreeBSD retires gets()!
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911270809310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

Seen in the FreeBSD Quarterly Report:

gets(3) retirement

    Contact: Ed Maste <emaste at FreeBSD.org>

    gets is an obsolete C library routine for reading a string from
    standard input. It was removed from the C standard as of C11 because
    there was no way to use it safely. Prompted by a comment during Paul
    Vixie's talk at vBSDCon 2017 I started investigating what it would take
    to remove gets from libc.

    The patch was posted to Phabricator and refined several times, and the
    portmgr team performed several exp-runs to identify ports broken by the
    removal. Symbol versioning is used to preserve binary compatibility for
    existing software that uses gets.

    The change was committed in September, and will be in FreeBSD 13.0.

    This project was sponsored by The FreeBSD Foundation.

And the world is a slightly safer place...

-- Dave

From norman at oclsc.org  Wed Nov 27 07:59:31 2019
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 16:59:31 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] FreeBSD retires gets()!
Message-ID: <1574805575.17040.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

We retired gets from Research UNIX back in 1984 or perhaps
earlier, with no serious pain because replacing it wasn't
hard and everybody agreed with the reason.

I'm glad to hear some part of the rest of the world is
catching up.

We also decided to retire the old Enigma-derived crypt(1),
except we didn't want to throw it out entirely in case
someone had an old encrypted file and wanted the contents
back.  So it was removed from the manual and the binary
moved to /usr/games.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON

From ggm at algebras.org  Wed Nov 27 08:31:29 2019
From: ggm at algebras.org (George Michaelson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 08:31:29 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] FreeBSD retires gets()!
In-Reply-To: <1574805575.17040.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1574805575.17040.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn337HzvvtBtxEW-kQ9Do3r_Jp7QuQrf9a8uo2UNwAUJvQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have managed to forget most of my C issues, but "does it gobble the
\n or does it leave the \n" sticks, because gets() was bound into it,
and because Python perpetuates it in line-mode reading.

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 8:00 AM Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
>
> We retired gets from Research UNIX back in 1984 or perhaps
> earlier, with no serious pain because replacing it wasn't
> hard and everybody agreed with the reason.
>
> I'm glad to hear some part of the rest of the world is
> catching up.
>
> We also decided to retire the old Enigma-derived crypt(1),
> except we didn't want to throw it out entirely in case
> someone had an old encrypted file and wanted the contents
> back.  So it was removed from the manual and the binary
> moved to /usr/games.
>
> Norman Wilson
> Toronto ON

From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Nov 27 08:32:07 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 09:32:07 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] FreeBSD retires gets()!
In-Reply-To: <1574805575.17040.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1574805575.17040.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911270924110.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Norman Wilson wrote:

> We retired gets from Research UNIX back in 1984 or perhaps earlier, with 
> no serious pain because replacing it wasn't hard and everybody agreed 
> with the reason.

Interesting...  Then again,. you weren't bound by POSIX :-)

> I'm glad to hear some part of the rest of the world is catching up.

The wheels grind slowly...

> We also decided to retire the old Enigma-derived crypt(1), except we 
> didn't want to throw it out entirely in case someone had an old 
> encrypted file and wanted the contents back.  So it was removed from the 
> manual and the binary moved to /usr/games.

Back in the Usenet days, somebody posted the Cryptobreakers Workbench (?) 
which was designed to work with crypt-encrypted files; it's probably still 
around somewhere...  Fairly easy to break as I recall, because it emulated 
a single-rotor Enigma.

-- Dave

From barto at kdbarto.org  Wed Nov 27 09:06:14 2019
From: barto at kdbarto.org (Katherine Barto)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 15:06:14 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] FreeBSD retires gets()!
In-Reply-To: <1574805575.17040.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1574805575.17040.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <300A9E4F-27B8-4A1A-ADB2-A9220CC6CFF3@kdbarto.org>

On Nov 26, 2019, at 1:59 PM, Norman Wilson <norman at oclsc.org> wrote:
> 
> We also decided to retire the old Enigma-derived crypt(1),
> except we didn't want to throw it out entirely in case
> someone had an old encrypted file and wanted the contents
> back.  So it was removed from the manual and the binary
> moved to /usr/games.

I particularly like that the old crypt was reduced to a game.

	David

From rich.salz at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 09:29:36 2019
From: rich.salz at gmail.com (Richard Salz)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 18:29:36 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] FreeBSD retires gets()!
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911270924110.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <1574805575.17040.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911270924110.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CAFH29tpjc0tvsPJCunnOS23mDHLK9UW7b6-EJR_OuMnvxn6DTA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 5:33 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> Back in the Usenet days, somebody posted the Cryptobreakers Workbench (?)
>

Bob Baldwin, comp.sources.unix volume 10; now available at
https://github.com/AlbertVeli/cbw
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From dave at horsfall.org  Wed Nov 27 10:29:26 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 11:29:26 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] FreeBSD retires gets()!
In-Reply-To: <CAFH29tpjc0tvsPJCunnOS23mDHLK9UW7b6-EJR_OuMnvxn6DTA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1574805575.17040.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
 <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911270924110.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CAFH29tpjc0tvsPJCunnOS23mDHLK9UW7b6-EJR_OuMnvxn6DTA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911271127090.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019, Richard Salz wrote:

> > Back in the Usenet days, somebody posted the Cryptobreakers Workbench 
> > (?)
> 
> Bob Baldwin, comp.sources.unix volume 10; now available at
> https://github.com/AlbertVeli/cbw

Thanks!

-- Dave

From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Nov 28 05:31:11 2019
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 13:31:11 -0600
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
Message-ID: <20191127204311.448C393D8C@minnie.tuhs.org>

At 04:52 PM 11/24/2019, Larry McVoy wrote:
>Good luck with that.  I had a 4/470 that had an exabyte, wheeled it out of
>building 5 at Sun and into building 9 at SGI and the tapes wouldn't read
>back.

I jumped in on that Twitter thread when I saw it.

Two years ago or so, I attempted to read a couple dozen old backup tapes from the mid 1990s. Half were Archive Python DDS-2 era, written on two different drives that I still had, as 'tar' tapes from SGI workstations. The other half were Exabyte 8500 8mm, some 'tar' from SGI and Linux and Amiga, some 
Windows NTBACKUP.  I set up a fresh Linux box with an Adaptec SCSI card.

I couldn't get any of the DDS-2 to read, either on the original hardware that wrote them, or on a newer STD28000N drive I bought on eBay, a pull from an old Apple server. I could write new tapes on the drive, just couldn't read any old ones. My attempts included reading some tapes I know I'd received from other people (that is, written on other drives) that I know I had been able to read on this hardware back in the day. They wouldn't read, either.

On the other hand, I could read the majority of the Exabytes, even on the original drive I had retained, as well as another I'd bought used in the early 2000s. Some had bad blocks here and there.

The tougher task was trying to find contemporary tools that could process the data stream from an old NTBACKUP, especially a stream with corruption from missing chunks, as I wasn't in the mood to try to rebuild an NT machine with SCSI to let NTBACKUP deal with the drive directly, and I think it would probably fail harder on direct drive errors.

The Amiga-made 'tar' archives were readable by 'tar' but the file time stamps weren't right when burst under Linux. I didn't debug that yet.
 
- John



From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Nov 28 06:53:54 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 07:53:54 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: J.F.Ossanna
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

We lost J.F. Ossanna on this day in 1977; he had a hand in developing Unix, and 
was responsible for "roff" and its descendants.  Remember him, the next time 
you see "jfo" in Unix documentation.

He also accomplished a lot more, too much to summarise here.

-- Dave

From krewat at kilonet.net  Thu Nov 28 06:56:10 2019
From: krewat at kilonet.net (Arthur Krewat)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 15:56:10 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <20191127204311.448C393D8C@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <20191127204311.448C393D8C@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <c7bd77e5-c681-6190-1916-c75559c8305b@kilonet.net>

On 11/27/2019 2:31 PM, John Foust wrote:
> I couldn't get any of the DDS-2 to read, either on the original hardware that wrote them, or on a newer STD28000N drive I bought on eBay, a pull from an old Apple server. I could write new tapes on the drive, just couldn't read any old ones. My attempts included reading some tapes I know I'd received from other people (that is, written on other drives) that I know I had been able to read on this hardware back in the day. They wouldn't read, either.
That sounds like a block size issue. Usually telling dd to use a larger 
block than the tape has is fine, but if the default is smaller than 
what's on the tape, it'll fail.

Depending on the drive firmware, the OS support for that particular 
drive, etc, you may or may not get warnings or errors that actually mean 
anything.

A long time ago, I attempted to read some 9-track TOPS-10 tapes using a 
Sun and a 6250 BPI capable tape drive. Nothing would read, it looked 
like there were actually no files on the tape whatsoever. So I gave up, 
but kept the tapes because they contained a lot of personal stuff I had 
done in high school and a few years after.

Years later, I got my hands on a Sun3/280 with 9-track tape drive, and 
attempted to read them again. Same thing, looked like there were no 
files on the tape. Started increasing the block size, and VOILA, got data.

Very odd circumstance, but block size has a lot to do with trying to 
read tapes. QIC-150, 8mm, 9-track, I've run into it a lot.

art k.



From dave at horsfall.org  Thu Nov 28 07:25:20 2019
From: dave at horsfall.org (Dave Horsfall)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 08:25:20 +1100 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Someone wants to use an exabyte
In-Reply-To: <c7bd77e5-c681-6190-1916-c75559c8305b@kilonet.net>
References: <CAFH29tqvzW2daP-MOksCn5au3zaw5hT28dLd=utmxp7QAVp-6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20191124225239.GG18200@mcvoy.com>
 <20191127204311.448C393D8C@minnie.tuhs.org>
 <c7bd77e5-c681-6190-1916-c75559c8305b@kilonet.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280823300.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>

On Wed, 27 Nov 2019, Arthur Krewat wrote:

[...]

> Very odd circumstance, but block size has a lot to do with trying to 
> read tapes. QIC-150, 8mm, 9-track, I've run into it a lot.

Yep; you tended to use the biggest block size you could, in order to cut 
down on the number of inter-record gaps (and of course, efficiency).

-- Dave

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu Nov 28 10:06:18 2019
From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 17:06:18 -0700
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: J.F.Ossanna
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <CANCZdfrTrjqw4-C9UOezgB6jqGD9LMOW1SwYpu+ADMnz4naGdQ@mail.gmail.com>

What do the J and F stand for?

Warner

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 1:54 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:

> We lost J.F. Ossanna on this day in 1977; he had a hand in developing
> Unix, and
> was responsible for "roff" and its descendants.  Remember him, the next
> time
> you see "jfo" in Unix documentation.
>
> He also accomplished a lot more, too much to summarise here.
>
> -- Dave
>
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From davida at pobox.com  Thu Nov 28 10:46:53 2019
From: davida at pobox.com (David Arnold)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:46:53 +1100
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: J.F.Ossanna
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrTrjqw4-C9UOezgB6jqGD9LMOW1SwYpu+ADMnz4naGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfrTrjqw4-C9UOezgB6jqGD9LMOW1SwYpu+ADMnz4naGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB313E60-868B-4E83-BD7D-B997DEA39C91@pobox.com>

> On 28 Nov 2019, at 11:06, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
> 
> What do the J and F stand for?

The “J” is Jospeh (and Joe); I don’t know about the “F”.




d


From finnoleary at inventati.org  Thu Nov 28 10:43:31 2019
From: finnoleary at inventati.org (Finn O'Leary)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 00:43:31 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: J.F.Ossanna
In-Reply-To: <CANCZdfrTrjqw4-C9UOezgB6jqGD9LMOW1SwYpu+ADMnz4naGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfrTrjqw4-C9UOezgB6jqGD9LMOW1SwYpu+ADMnz4naGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c99256a6c908b079aed4ef9e94ece518@inventati.org>

Wikipedia[0] lists his name as Joseph F. Ossanna, so they don't seem to 
know either

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Ossanna

- finn

On 2019-11-28 00:06, Warner Losh wrote:
> What do the J and F stand for?
> 
> Warner
> 
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2019, 1:54 PM Dave Horsfall <dave at horsfall.org> wrote:
> 
>> We lost J.F. Ossanna on this day in 1977; he had a hand in developing
>> Unix, and
>> was responsible for "roff" and its descendants.  Remember him, the 
>> next
>> time
>> you see "jfo" in Unix documentation.
>> 
>> He also accomplished a lot more, too much to summarise here.
>> 
>> -- Dave
>> 

From lm at mcvoy.com  Thu Nov 28 13:43:53 2019
From: lm at mcvoy.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:43:53 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: J.F.Ossanna
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <20191128034353.GG18200@mcvoy.com>

I'll say this every time his name comes up, it's one of the great regrets
of my life that I did not get to meet this guy.  I think troff is genius,
you can ask me why and I'll tell you, don't want to bore the list with
a ton of arcane, but useful if you care about it, stuff.  Troff was 
amazing, just look at what was built on it, eqn, pic, tbl, and more.

I so wish I could have met this guy and told him how much his work meant
to me.  I've used troff for everything, I have a perl script that took
troff -ms input and produced a web site.  I ran a company for 18 years,
our logo was done in troff.  I ran a conference that did most of the
papers in LaTex and I encouraged troff and the people who use troff came
to me and said "this was so much easier than LaTex".  Yep.

So he may not have the fame that Ken and Brian and Dennis and Doug and
others have but he's one of my heros.  Along with all of them and other
Bell Labs folks.

RIP Joseph Ossanna, you are missed.  I wish I had met you.

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 07:53:54AM +1100, Dave Horsfall wrote:
> We lost J.F. Ossanna on this day in 1977; he had a hand in developing Unix,
> and was responsible for "roff" and its descendants.  Remember him, the next
> time you see "jfo" in Unix documentation.
> 
> He also accomplished a lot more, too much to summarise here.
> 
> -- Dave

-- 
---
Larry McVoy            	     lm at mcvoy.com             http://www.mcvoy.com/lm 

From thomas.paulsen at firemail.de  Thu Nov 28 19:19:34 2019
From: thomas.paulsen at firemail.de (Thomas Paulsen)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 10:19:34 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: J.F.Ossanna
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
Message-ID: <c02daff1c2d96a344810ac9222138239@firemail.de>

>We lost J.F. Ossanna on this day in 1977; he had a hand in developing Unix,

without Joe there wouldn't be any *NIX (Remember  the Patent Department), and we all would be bored running Windows..



From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Nov 29 03:16:05 2019
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:16:05 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: J.F.Ossanna
In-Reply-To: <c99256a6c908b079aed4ef9e94ece518@inventati.org>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfrTrjqw4-C9UOezgB6jqGD9LMOW1SwYpu+ADMnz4naGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99256a6c908b079aed4ef9e94ece518@inventati.org>
Message-ID: <1f8101d5a60f$857d2870$90777950$@ronnatalie.com>

I've done some searching through newspaper archives and various
Ancestry.com-indexed databases.     I haven't found any use of a middle name
spelled out, always F.    I even have an image of his draft card and it just
reads "Joseph F. Ossanna, Jr."

However, digging a little deeper finds that his father went by the name
"Joseph FRANK Ossanna" so it's quite likely that this was the son's middle
name (since he was a "junior").    I suspect he might have avoided spelling
out Frank because people would have difficulty undersding it wasn't short
for Francis or something.




From ron at ronnatalie.com  Fri Nov 29 03:18:08 2019
From: ron at ronnatalie.com (ron at ronnatalie.com)
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 12:18:08 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] In Memoriam: J.F.Ossanna
In-Reply-To: <1f8101d5a60f$857d2870$90777950$@ronnatalie.com>
References: <alpine.BSF.2.21.9999.1911280752310.33542@aneurin.horsfall.org>
 <CANCZdfrTrjqw4-C9UOezgB6jqGD9LMOW1SwYpu+ADMnz4naGdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <c99256a6c908b079aed4ef9e94ece518@inventati.org>
 <1f8101d5a60f$857d2870$90777950$@ronnatalie.com>
Message-ID: <1f8301d5a60f$ce241890$6a6c49b0$@ronnatalie.com>

Just to follow up, I found JF in the 1940 census records.   He indeed was
Joseph Frank Ossanna, Jr.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: TUHS <tuhs-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org> On Behalf Of
> ron at ronnatalie.com
> Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2019 12:16 PM
> To: 'Finn O'Leary' <finnoleary at inventati.org>; tuhs at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [TUHS] In Memoriam: J.F.Ossanna
> 
> I've done some searching through newspaper archives and various
> Ancestry.com-indexed databases.     I haven't found any use of a middle
> name
> spelled out, always F.    I even have an image of his draft card and it
just
> reads "Joseph F. Ossanna, Jr."
> 
> However, digging a little deeper finds that his father went by the name
> "Joseph FRANK Ossanna" so it's quite likely that this was the son's middle
> name (since he was a "junior").    I suspect he might have avoided
spelling
> out Frank because people would have difficulty undersding it wasn't short
for
> Francis or something.
> 
> 



From steffen at sdaoden.eu  Sat Nov 30 07:52:58 2019
From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 22:52:58 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] another conversion of the CSRG BSD SCCS archives to Git
In-Reply-To: <m1iVoBV-0036tPC@more.local>
References: <m1iVoBV-0036tPC@more.local>
Message-ID: <20191129215258.Vgu-C%steffen@sdaoden.eu>

Greg A. Woods wrote in <m1iVoBV-0036tPC at more.local>:
 |I've been fixing and enhancing James Youngman's git-sccsimport to use
 |with some of my SCCS archives, and I thought it might be the ultimate
 |stress test of it to convert the CSRG BSD SCCS archives.
 |
 |The conversion takes about an hour to run on my old-ish Dell server.
 |
 |This conversion is unlike others -- there is some mechanical compression
 |of related deltas into a single Git commit.
 |
 |https://github.com/robohack/ucb-csrg-bsd

Thanks for taking the time to produce a CSRG repo that seems to
mimic changesets as they really happened.  As i never made it
there on my own, i have switched to yours some weeks ago.  (Mind
you, after doing "gc --aggressive --prune=all" the repository size
has more than halved, it was the final reason to prepare new
repositories on a vhost with good internet connection before
getting this through my flaky wifi here.  Storage and internet
bandwidth and their cost really do not seem to bother anyone
anymore.  I have no offense in mind, i only recognized it (the
hard way).)

 |https://github.com/robohack/git-sccsimport
 |
 |--
 |     Greg A. Woods <gwoods at acm.org>
 |
 |Kelowna, BC     +1 250 762-7675           RoboHack <woods at robohack.ca>
 |Planix, Inc. <woods at planix.com>     Avoncote Farms <woods at avoncote.ca>
 --End of <m1iVoBV-0036tPC at more.local>

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,                The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter           he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

