From rjtucke at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 10:00:32 2008
From: rjtucke at gmail.com (Ross Tucker)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:00:32 -0700
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
Message-ID: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,
(This has got to be the strangest cross-post I've ever done.)

I have just taken a bet from a friend to challenge my geekiness. I was
telling him about my love of Vintage Technology and he proposed that I
combine two hitherto separate hobbies and see what happens. The
topics: the DEC PDP-11 minicomputer (vintage: 1970s) and vacuum-tube
ham radios (vintage: 1960s). I do sincerely apologize for
cross-posting, but I am rather younger than either of these
technologies (vintage: 1984) and this seems like a monumental
challenge.

My question for y'all: how could I possibly design+build a project
that uses both of these technologies? My thought is to port some radio
receiver Digital Signal Processing (DSP) application into PDP-11
assembler, compile and run it via emulator on my PC, then use it with
the vacuum-tube regenerative receiver that I built a few years ago...
Does anybody know if PDP-11 UNIXes even had the capability for a
"sound card"? Or, to get ambitious, I would LOVE to design some
interface circuitry between PDP-11 digital circuitry and vacuum-tube
electronics... The challenges are legion: the tube side of the circuit
operates around 350V DC levels with radio-frequency (RF) signals at 7
MHz (almost the clock rate of some PDP-11s!) and I don't have the DEC
Handbooks, but I'm pretty sure that even those ancient pre-TTL
circuits operate below 350V!

So... any, er, "ideas"?

Best regards,
Ross Tucker


From carl.lowenstein at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 11:37:31 2008
From: carl.lowenstein at gmail.com (Carl Lowenstein)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:37:31 -0800
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5904d5730812091737g501a4b4ai98ac0862b13107be@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Ross Tucker <rjtucke at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear all,
> (This has got to be the strangest cross-post I've ever done.)
>
> I have just taken a bet from a friend to challenge my geekiness. I was
> telling him about my love of Vintage Technology and he proposed that I
> combine two hitherto separate hobbies and see what happens. The
> topics: the DEC PDP-11 minicomputer (vintage: 1970s) and vacuum-tube
> ham radios (vintage: 1960s). I do sincerely apologize for
> cross-posting, but I am rather younger than either of these
> technologies (vintage: 1984) and this seems like a monumental
> challenge.
>
> My question for y'all: how could I possibly design+build a project
> that uses both of these technologies? My thought is to port some radio
> receiver Digital Signal Processing (DSP) application into PDP-11
> assembler, compile and run it via emulator on my PC, then use it with
> the vacuum-tube regenerative receiver that I built a few years ago...
> Does anybody know if PDP-11 UNIXes even had the capability for a
> "sound card"?

Well, you could look at "Votrax" on Wikipedia.  Allegedly, the first
words spoken by a Unix system at Bell Labs, using its Votrax
synthesizer, were "file not found".

Things that are now known as "sound cards" were called A:D and D:A
converters back in those days.  And there were a fair variety of them
available for both Unibus and Qbus systems.

> Or, to get ambitious, I would LOVE to design some
> interface circuitry between PDP-11 digital circuitry and vacuum-tube
> electronics... The challenges are legion: the tube side of the circuit
> operates around 350V DC levels with radio-frequency (RF) signals at 7
> MHz (almost the clock rate of some PDP-11s!) and I don't have the DEC
> Handbooks, but I'm pretty sure that even those ancient pre-TTL
> circuits operate below 350V!

The vacuum-tube circuits may be running from 350 VDC but somewhere
there are low-level inputs from which everything is amplified.  Think
microphone.

    carl
-- 
    carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
                                                 clowenstein at ucsd.edu


From rjtucke at gmail.com  Wed Dec 10 12:49:12 2008
From: rjtucke at gmail.com (Ross Tucker)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:49:12 -0700
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2f30dc950812091849gda4d77cy4428df8671149b8a@mail.gmail.com>

Dear all,
(This has got to be the strangest cross-post I've ever done.)

I have just taken a bet from a friend to challenge my geekiness. I was
telling him about my love of Vintage Technology and he proposed that I
combine two hitherto separate hobbies and see what happens. The
topics: the DEC PDP-11 minicomputer (vintage: 1970s) and vacuum-tube
ham radios (vintage: 1960s). I do sincerely apologize for
cross-posting, but I am rather younger than either of these
technologies (vintage: 1984) and this seems like a monumental
challenge.

My question for y'all: how could I possibly design+build a project
that uses both of these technologies? My thought is to port some radio
receiver Digital Signal Processing (DSP) application into PDP-11
assembler, compile and run it via emulator on my PC, then use it with
the vacuum-tube regenerative receiver that I built a few years ago...
Does anybody know if PDP-11 UNIXes even had the capability for a
"sound card"? Or, to get ambitious, I would LOVE to design some
interface circuitry between PDP-11 digital circuitry and vacuum-tube
electronics... The challenges are legion: the tube side of the circuit
operates around 350V DC levels with radio-frequency (RF) signals at 7
MHz (almost the clock rate of some PDP-11s!) and I don't have the DEC
Handbooks, but I'm pretty sure that even those ancient pre-TTL
circuits operate below 350V!

So... any, er, "ideas"?

Best regards,
Ross Tucker

CCed to: 'glowbugs' list at <glowbugs at piobaire.mines.uidaho.edu>


From IanK at vulcan.com  Wed Dec 10 13:33:50 2008
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 19:33:50 -0800
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <2f30dc950812091849gda4d77cy4428df8671149b8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>,
	<2f30dc950812091849gda4d77cy4428df8671149b8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD2A56ED41@505fuji>

In addition to the DECtalk standalone device, there was a Qbus module called DECVoice (DTC04) that was intended for telephone systems (voice response systems).  I have the module in my personal collection; unfortunately, what I've been told is that there's a lot of others' intellectual property in the software (it's a microcoded device) so it would be a serious challenge to get the code to run it - too bad.  -- Ian
________________________________________
From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On Behalf Of Ross Tucker [rjtucke at gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 6:49 PM
To: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface

Dear all,
(This has got to be the strangest cross-post I've ever done.)

I have just taken a bet from a friend to challenge my geekiness. I was
telling him about my love of Vintage Technology and he proposed that I
combine two hitherto separate hobbies and see what happens. The
topics: the DEC PDP-11 minicomputer (vintage: 1970s) and vacuum-tube
ham radios (vintage: 1960s). I do sincerely apologize for
cross-posting, but I am rather younger than either of these
technologies (vintage: 1984) and this seems like a monumental
challenge.

My question for y'all: how could I possibly design+build a project
that uses both of these technologies? My thought is to port some radio
receiver Digital Signal Processing (DSP) application into PDP-11
assembler, compile and run it via emulator on my PC, then use it with
the vacuum-tube regenerative receiver that I built a few years ago...
Does anybody know if PDP-11 UNIXes even had the capability for a
"sound card"? Or, to get ambitious, I would LOVE to design some
interface circuitry between PDP-11 digital circuitry and vacuum-tube
electronics... The challenges are legion: the tube side of the circuit
operates around 350V DC levels with radio-frequency (RF) signals at 7
MHz (almost the clock rate of some PDP-11s!) and I don't have the DEC
Handbooks, but I'm pretty sure that even those ancient pre-TTL
circuits operate below 350V!

So... any, er, "ideas"?

Best regards,
Ross Tucker

CCed to: 'glowbugs' list at <glowbugs at piobaire.mines.uidaho.edu>
_______________________________________________
PUPS mailing list
PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups



From cube1 at charter.net  Wed Dec 10 12:41:49 2008
From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:41:49 -0600
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <5904d5730812091737g501a4b4ai98ac0862b13107be@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
	<2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20081209203649.01d65d08@cirithi>

Back in the 1970's Paul Pierce used a D/A converter on a PDP-11 at the UW 
Computer Systems Lab to generate music much like early PC sound cards did 
-- by combining harmonics in various ratios.  Although he happened to have 
used RT-11, there is no reason why it could not be done under Unix.  (The 
UW Computer Systems Lab also had a Votrax).

So, sure, you could, with an A/D and D/A converter do something like 
that.  I am not sure that the various emulators have done emulation for A/D 
or D/A, but in principle, it ought to be possible.

AC coupling (via a capacitor) of the input or output would remove any 
concerns about the relatively high DC voltages.  Besides, input signals 
ordinarily come into the grids of vacuum tube circuits by way of a 
transformer.  Ditto for outputs from tube circuits.

Jay Jaeger


At 05:37 PM 12/9/2008 -0800, Carl Lowenstein wrote:
>On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Ross Tucker <rjtucke at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Dear all,
> > (This has got to be the strangest cross-post I've ever done.)
> >
> > I have just taken a bet from a friend to challenge my geekiness. I was
> > telling him about my love of Vintage Technology and he proposed that I
> > combine two hitherto separate hobbies and see what happens. The
> > topics: the DEC PDP-11 minicomputer (vintage: 1970s) and vacuum-tube
> > ham radios (vintage: 1960s). I do sincerely apologize for
> > cross-posting, but I am rather younger than either of these
> > technologies (vintage: 1984) and this seems like a monumental
> > challenge.
> >
> > My question for y'all: how could I possibly design+build a project
> > that uses both of these technologies? My thought is to port some radio
> > receiver Digital Signal Processing (DSP) application into PDP-11
> > assembler, compile and run it via emulator on my PC, then use it with
> > the vacuum-tube regenerative receiver that I built a few years ago...
> > Does anybody know if PDP-11 UNIXes even had the capability for a
> > "sound card"?
>
>Well, you could look at "Votrax" on Wikipedia.  Allegedly, the first
>words spoken by a Unix system at Bell Labs, using its Votrax
>synthesizer, were "file not found".
>
>Things that are now known as "sound cards" were called A:D and D:A
>converters back in those days.  And there were a fair variety of them
>available for both Unibus and Qbus systems.
>
> > Or, to get ambitious, I would LOVE to design some
> > interface circuitry between PDP-11 digital circuitry and vacuum-tube
> > electronics... The challenges are legion: the tube side of the circuit
> > operates around 350V DC levels with radio-frequency (RF) signals at 7
> > MHz (almost the clock rate of some PDP-11s!) and I don't have the DEC
> > Handbooks, but I'm pretty sure that even those ancient pre-TTL
> > circuits operate below 350V!
>
>The vacuum-tube circuits may be running from 350 VDC but somewhere
>there are low-level inputs from which everything is amplified.  Think
>microphone.
>
>     carl
>--
>     carl lowenstein         marine physical lab     u.c. san diego
>                                                  clowenstein at ucsd.edu
>_______________________________________________
>PUPS mailing list
>PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
>https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups

---	
Jay R. Jaeger					The Computer Collection
cube1 at charter.net



From mcquiggi at sfu.ca  Wed Dec 10 15:02:08 2008
From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin)
Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 21:02:08 -0800
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <108A91F6-216E-46D3-990A-DB3ABAE687BA@sfu.ca>

How about using the pdp-11 to decode Morse code transmissions that you  
receive on your vintage radio?  This would eliminate any issues with  
interfacing to HV circuits, as you could simply run the radio's audio  
output through a PLL circuit to detect tone/no tone and then read this  
single bit signal on the pdp-11.  You decode the Morse code in  
software.  I have code for you (in an old version of Pascal) if you'd  
like.  It adapts to the Morse code speed automatically and "catches  
up" to changes in Morse speed in about 5 letters maximum, as I  
recall.  From an undergrad project I completed in the late 1970s!  I  
could also dig out the hardware info.  Then again you might have more  
fun reinventing this yourself!

Kevin

On 9-Dec-08, at 4:00 PM, Ross Tucker wrote:

> Dear all,
> (This has got to be the strangest cross-post I've ever done.)
>
> I have just taken a bet from a friend to challenge my geekiness. I was
> telling him about my love of Vintage Technology and he proposed that I
> combine two hitherto separate hobbies and see what happens. The
> topics: the DEC PDP-11 minicomputer (vintage: 1970s) and vacuum-tube
> ham radios (vintage: 1960s). I do sincerely apologize for
> cross-posting, but I am rather younger than either of these
> technologies (vintage: 1984) and this seems like a monumental
> challenge.
>
> My question for y'all: how could I possibly design+build a project
> that uses both of these technologies? My thought is to port some radio
> receiver Digital Signal Processing (DSP) application into PDP-11
> assembler, compile and run it via emulator on my PC, then use it with
> the vacuum-tube regenerative receiver that I built a few years ago...
> Does anybody know if PDP-11 UNIXes even had the capability for a
> "sound card"? Or, to get ambitious, I would LOVE to design some
> interface circuitry between PDP-11 digital circuitry and vacuum-tube
> electronics... The challenges are legion: the tube side of the circuit
> operates around 350V DC levels with radio-frequency (RF) signals at 7
> MHz (almost the clock rate of some PDP-11s!) and I don't have the DEC
> Handbooks, but I'm pretty sure that even those ancient pre-TTL
> circuits operate below 350V!
>
> So... any, er, "ideas"?
>
> Best regards,
> Ross Tucker
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
>



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Dec 10 19:22:41 2008
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:22:41 +0100
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081210102241.4ba8027e.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Tue, 9 Dec 2008 17:00:32 -0700
"Ross Tucker" <rjtucke at gmail.com> wrote:

> Does anybody know if PDP-11 UNIXes even had the capability for a
> "sound card"?
There are ADC cards for QBus (and most likely UniBUS) PDP-11s...
What about PSK31? QRSS?
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/



From robinb at ruffnready.co.uk  Wed Dec 10 19:21:37 2008
From: robinb at ruffnready.co.uk (robinb at ruffnready.co.uk)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:21:37 +0000
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1LALGD-000BvI-89@pr-webmail-2.demon.net>

That's a wonderful idea.  As has been pointed out there are a number of A2D and D2A boards available for the PDP11.  However it would be fun to do it yourself and design one from scratch although getting hold of prototyping boards for unibus or Q bus could be a bit difficult these days.

You would probably have to down convert your RF to audio to keep everything in the realm of what the PDP could handle though something like PSK should be able to be resolved, morse should be a doddle.

Have a go, this is seriously pointless geeky stuff and as a result huge fun.

Robin

rjtucke at gmail.com wrote:
> Dear all,
> (This has got to be the strangest cross-post I've ever done.)
> 
> I have just taken a bet from a friend to challenge my geekiness. I was
> telling him about my love of Vintage Technology and he proposed that I
> combine two hitherto separate hobbies and see what happens. The
> topics: the DEC PDP-11 minicomputer (vintage: 1970s) and vacuum-tube
> ham radios (vintage: 1960s). I do sincerely apologize for
> cross-posting, but I am rather younger than either of these
> technologies (vintage: 1984) and this seems like a monumental
> challenge.
> 
> My question for y'all: how could I possibly design+build a project
> that uses both of these technologies? My thought is to port some radio
> receiver Digital Signal Processing (DSP) application into PDP-11
> assembler, compile and run it via emulator on my PC, then use it with
> the vacuum-tube regenerative receiver that I built a few years ago...
> Does anybody know if PDP-11 UNIXes even had the capability for a
> "sound card"? Or, to get ambitious, I would LOVE to design some
> interface circuitry between PDP-11 digital circuitry and vacuum-tube
> electronics... The challenges are legion: the tube side of the circuit
> operates around 350V DC levels with radio-frequency (RF) signals at 7
> MHz (almost the clock rate of some PDP-11s!) and I don't have the DEC
> Handbooks, but I'm pretty sure that even those ancient pre-TTL
> circuits operate below 350V!
> 
> So... any, er, "ideas"?
> 
> Best regards,
> Ross Tucker
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> 



From fred.van.kempen at microwalt.nl  Thu Dec 11 04:09:34 2008
From: fred.van.kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:09:34 +0100
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
Message-ID: <4AAEDF5C75F8034081EC5DB322150E3C014A59@MWNLEX01.mwcorp.lan>

> (This has got to be the strangest cross-post I've ever done.)
You've got that right :P

> I do sincerely apologize for
> cross-posting, but I am rather younger than either of these
> technologies (vintage: 1984) and this seems like a monumental
> challenge.
Well, several projects can be thought off in this scenario, but
if you want to keep it mildly useful, try to do something with
audio tubes connected to an '11 (OK, here's a spoiler: "you'll
make a PDP11-driven music player using a tube-based audio
backend"), or such.  You could go into analog computing as
well, but that can be kinda hairy.

This more or less only requires building a usable D/A converter
on the '11, which then interfaces to the tubes.  I'd use a DMA-
based 16-bit DA controller.

Cheers,

Fred (smiling @ his nano-11 system running Ultrix, all the size of
      a matchbox..)




From bill at cs.uofs.edu  Thu Dec 11 07:25:30 2008
From: bill at cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:25:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <5904d5730812091737g501a4b4ai98ac0862b13107be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
	<5904d5730812091737g501a4b4ai98ac0862b13107be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50683.71.245.40.168.1228944330.squirrel@www.cs.uofs.edu>


If the intent was to be the first one to wed computers and vacuum tubes,
you have missed the boat by several decades.  I, and I am sure many others
did it long ago.  I ran HF AX.25 Packet Radio on my Heathkit HW-101.

Of course, if the desire is to wed the PDP-11 and vacuum tubes, if it
hasn't been done already the same could be done.  I would bet I could
put an old version of the KA9Q software on a PDP-11 running BSD or even
Ultrix-11.  And then, fire up my HW-101 (yes, I still have it) and the
deed is done.  Of course, I could also use my HF rig which is also of
the vacuum tube genre.  Drake Twins. :-)

bill

-- 
Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three wolves
bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton   |
Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>




From mcquiggi at sfu.ca  Thu Dec 11 10:04:07 2008
From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:04:07 -0800
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <50683.71.245.40.168.1228944330.squirrel@www.cs.uofs.edu>
References: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
	<5904d5730812091737g501a4b4ai98ac0862b13107be@mail.gmail.com>
	<50683.71.245.40.168.1228944330.squirrel@www.cs.uofs.edu>
Message-ID: <C476A2A1-8D74-40F1-9E99-DD82D764030D@sfu.ca>

One could always build "a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives  
and bearskins"...

For those Trekkies out there...

Kevin

On 10-Dec-08, at 1:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:

>
> If the intent was to be the first one to wed computers and vacuum  
> tubes,
> you have missed the boat by several decades.  I, and I am sure many  
> others
> did it long ago.  I ran HF AX.25 Packet Radio on my Heathkit HW-101.
>
> Of course, if the desire is to wed the PDP-11 and vacuum tubes, if it
> hasn't been done already the same could be done.  I would bet I could
> put an old version of the KA9Q software on a PDP-11 running BSD or  
> even
> Ultrix-11.  And then, fire up my HW-101 (yes, I still have it) and the
> deed is done.  Of course, I could also use my HF rig which is also of
> the vacuum tube genre.  Drake Twins. :-)
>
> bill
>
> -- 
> Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three  
> wolves
> bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> University of Scranton   |
> Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
>



From IanK at vulcan.com  Thu Dec 11 10:06:01 2008
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:06:01 -0800
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <C476A2A1-8D74-40F1-9E99-DD82D764030D@sfu.ca>
References: <2f30dc950812091600t2028222dw3f855b2271a12593@mail.gmail.com>
	<5904d5730812091737g501a4b4ai98ac0862b13107be@mail.gmail.com>
	<50683.71.245.40.168.1228944330.squirrel@www.cs.uofs.edu>
	<C476A2A1-8D74-40F1-9E99-DD82D764030D@sfu.ca>
Message-ID: <FF6AB92D97A23A409701CDBF66F03FCD2A5AB2E0@505fuji>

But only if you have Joan Collins to inspire you.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:pups-
> bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On Behalf Of Kevin McQuiggin
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 4:04 PM
> To: Bill Gunshannon
> Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
>
> One could always build "a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives
> and bearskins"...
>
> For those Trekkies out there...
>
> Kevin
>
> On 10-Dec-08, at 1:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
>
> >
> > If the intent was to be the first one to wed computers and vacuum
> > tubes,
> > you have missed the boat by several decades.  I, and I am sure many
> > others
> > did it long ago.  I ran HF AX.25 Packet Radio on my Heathkit HW-101.
> >
> > Of course, if the desire is to wed the PDP-11 and vacuum tubes, if it
> > hasn't been done already the same could be done.  I would bet I could
> > put an old version of the KA9Q software on a PDP-11 running BSD or
> > even
> > Ultrix-11.  And then, fire up my HW-101 (yes, I still have it) and
> the
> > deed is done.  Of course, I could also use my HF rig which is also of
> > the vacuum tube genre.  Drake Twins. :-)
> >
> > bill
> >
> > --
> > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three
> > wolves
> > bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> > University of Scranton   |
> > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PUPS mailing list
> > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Dec 12 03:14:36 2008
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 18:14:36 +0100
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <4AAEDF5C75F8034081EC5DB322150E3C014A59@MWNLEX01.mwcorp.lan>
References: <4AAEDF5C75F8034081EC5DB322150E3C014A59@MWNLEX01.mwcorp.lan>
Message-ID: <20081211181436.6bd5c50a.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:09:34 +0100
"Fred N. van Kempen" <fred.van.kempen at microwalt.nl> wrote:

> smiling @ his nano-11 system running Ultrix, all the size of
>       a matchbox..
nano-11? Please elaborate.
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/



From fred.van.kempen at microwalt.nl  Fri Dec 12 04:16:52 2008
From: fred.van.kempen at microwalt.nl (Fred N. van Kempen)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:16:52 +0100
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
Message-ID: <4AAEDF5C75F8034081EC5DB322150E3C014A79@MWNLEX01.mwcorp.lan>

I was bored, and ported my version of SimH (which is an older
version, but with some stuff ripped out, and other stuff put
in) to my operating system for my ARM-based MCU board.  It
now "acts" like a regular 11/83 when turned on, and will
happily boot Ultrix-11 off the CF card :)

Not as fast as running on a peecee, not half as much fun as
running a real '11, but hey, it DOES fit into my backpack.

--f 

-----Original Message-----
From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org] On Behalf Of Jochen Kunz
Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2008 6:15 PM
To: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
Subject: Re: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface

On Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:09:34 +0100
"Fred N. van Kempen" <fred.van.kempen at microwalt.nl> wrote:

> smiling @ his nano-11 system running Ultrix, all the size of
>       a matchbox..
nano-11? Please elaborate.
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

_______________________________________________
PUPS mailing list
PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups



From brantley at coraid.com  Fri Dec 12 04:43:58 2008
From: brantley at coraid.com (Brantley Coile)
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 13:43:58 -0500
Subject: [pups] V7 boot tape files
Message-ID: <491EBE22-B214-422B-B3E4-B464C19E83E4@coraid.com>

Hey there,

I have two questions.  First, does anyone have the original files from  
the Seventh Edition boot tape?  Second, does simh support tape  
operations like writing file markers?  No doubt you can see where I'm  
headed with this.  I want to attach the original boot tape and install  
the original V7 tape onto simh.

Thanks,
Brantley Coile



From Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de  Sat Dec 13 01:51:09 2008
From: Hellwig.Geisse at mni.fh-giessen.de (Hellwig Geisse)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:51:09 +0100
Subject: [pups] V7 boot tape files
In-Reply-To: <491EBE22-B214-422B-B3E4-B464C19E83E4@coraid.com>
References: <491EBE22-B214-422B-B3E4-B464C19E83E4@coraid.com>
Message-ID: <1229097069.6522.520.camel@papa>

Brantley,

On Thu, 2008-12-11 at 13:43 -0500, Brantley Coile wrote:
> I have two questions.  First, does anyone have the original files from  
> the Seventh Edition boot tape?  Second, does simh support tape  
> operations like writing file markers?  No doubt you can see where I'm  
> headed with this.  I want to attach the original boot tape and install  
> the original V7 tape onto simh.

some time ago I did exactly what you plan to do.
I used the original V7 tape files from Keith Bostic,
which are hosted by PUPS. I wrote a small program
that converted the distinct files into a single 'tape'
with a format that simh understands. I could then
proceed with the installation of V7 exactly as the
manual says.

The whole package with instructions is available here:
http://homepages.fh-giessen.de/~hg53/pdp11-unix/

Hellwig



From bqt at softjar.se  Sat Dec 13 02:42:21 2008
From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 17:42:21 +0100
Subject: [pups] V7 boot tape files
In-Reply-To: <491EBE22-B214-422B-B3E4-B464C19E83E4@coraid.com>
References: <491EBE22-B214-422B-B3E4-B464C19E83E4@coraid.com>
Message-ID: <4942946D.9070306@softjar.se>

Brantley Coile skrev:
> Hey there,
> 
> I have two questions.  First, does anyone have the original files from  
> the Seventh Edition boot tape?  Second, does simh support tape  
> operations like writing file markers?  No doubt you can see where I'm  
> headed with this.  I want to attach the original boot tape and install  
> the original V7 tape onto simh.

I don't have any tapes, but I'm sure someone do.

However, the answer to the second question is: of course. Otherwise it couldn't 
emulate a tape.

	Johnny

-- 
Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                   ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se             ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Sat Dec 13 10:49:11 2008
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:49:11 -0500
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
In-Reply-To: <C476A2A1-8D74-40F1-9E99-DD82D764030D@sfu.ca>
Message-ID: <EF13F3C409A24418A643A72EA259C272@who8>

Hello!
The term is Trekker, Kevin. And it takes place during the second act of a
very important episode. 


But I freely admit that I am interested in this decidedly strange mix of
technology.
--
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
"The Force will be with you always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
  


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org]
On Behalf
> Of Kevin McQuiggin
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:04 PM
> To: Bill Gunshannon
> Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
> 
> One could always build "a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives
> and bearskins"...
> 
> For those Trekkies out there...
> 
> Kevin
> 
> On 10-Dec-08, at 1:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
> >
> > If the intent was to be the first one to wed computers and vacuum
> > tubes,
> > you have missed the boat by several decades.  I, and I am sure many
> > others
> > did it long ago.  I ran HF AX.25 Packet Radio on my Heathkit HW-101.
> >
> > Of course, if the desire is to wed the PDP-11 and vacuum tubes, if it
> > hasn't been done already the same could be done.  I would bet I could
> > put an old version of the KA9Q software on a PDP-11 running BSD or
> > even
> > Ultrix-11.  And then, fire up my HW-101 (yes, I still have it) and the
> > deed is done.  Of course, I could also use my HF rig which is also of
> > the vacuum tube genre.  Drake Twins. :-)
> >
> > bill
> >
> > --
> > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three
> > wolves
> > bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> > University of Scranton   |
> > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PUPS mailing list
> > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups



From hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net  Sat Dec 13 11:14:35 2008
From: hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net (Gregg C Levine)
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:14:35 -0500
Subject: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface DAC-6A2
In-Reply-To: <C476A2A1-8D74-40F1-9E99-DD82D764030D@sfu.ca>
Message-ID: <308E8CEB5AAF4419A84F9066DF8E3FBA@who8>

Hello! (Resend because a member missed it.)
The term is Trekker, Kevin. And it takes place during the second act of a
very important episode. 


But I freely admit that I am interested in this decidedly strange mix of
technology.
--
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon at worldnet.att.net
"The Force will be with you always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
  


> -----Original Message-----
> From: pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org [mailto:pups-bounces at minnie.tuhs.org]
On Behalf
> Of Kevin McQuiggin
> Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 7:04 PM
> To: Bill Gunshannon
> Cc: pups at minnie.tuhs.org
> Subject: Re: [pups] PDP-11 / vacuum tube interface
> 
> One could always build "a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives
> and bearskins"...
> 
> For those Trekkies out there...
> 
> Kevin
> 
> On 10-Dec-08, at 1:25 PM, Bill Gunshannon wrote:
> 
> >
> > If the intent was to be the first one to wed computers and vacuum
> > tubes,
> > you have missed the boat by several decades.  I, and I am sure many
> > others
> > did it long ago.  I ran HF AX.25 Packet Radio on my Heathkit HW-101.
> >
> > Of course, if the desire is to wed the PDP-11 and vacuum tubes, if it
> > hasn't been done already the same could be done.  I would bet I could
> > put an old version of the KA9Q software on a PDP-11 running BSD or
> > even
> > Ultrix-11.  And then, fire up my HW-101 (yes, I still have it) and the
> > deed is done.  Of course, I could also use my HF rig which is also of
> > the vacuum tube genre.  Drake Twins. :-)
> >
> > bill
> >
> > --
> > Bill Gunshannon          |  de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n.  Three
> > wolves
> > bill at cs.scranton.edu     |  and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
> > University of Scranton   |
> > Scranton, Pennsylvania   |         #include <std.disclaimer.h>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > PUPS mailing list
> > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> PUPS mailing list
> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups



From lorddoomicus at mac.com  Wed Dec 10 10:30:14 2008
From: lorddoomicus at mac.com (Lord Doomicus)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 19:30:14 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] /usr/bin/bs on HPUX?
Message-ID: <75D36093-D9D0-48EF-ACAC-DF739E0236B6@mac.com>

I was poking around an HP UX system at work today, and noticed a  
command I've never noticed before ... /usr/bin/bs.

I'm sure it's been there for a long time, even though I've been an  
HPUX admin for more than a decade, sometimes I'm just blind ... but  
anyway ....

I tried to search on google ... it looks like only HPUX, AIX, and  
Maybe AU/X has it.  Seems to be some kind of pseudo BASIC like  
interpreter.

Anyone ever use it for anything?  Has anyone even noticed it before?   
I'll have to boot my Crimson to see if IRIX has it.

- Derrik

Derrik Walker v2.0, RHCE
lorddoomicus at mac.com
http://www.doomd.net

"There's nothing nice about Steve Jobs and there's nothing evil about  
Bill Gates."
	-- Chuck Peddle, MOS 6502 Chip Designer

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From tfb at tfeb.org  Wed Dec 10 19:45:43 2008
From: tfb at tfeb.org (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:45:43 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] /usr/bin/bs on HPUX?
In-Reply-To: <75D36093-D9D0-48EF-ACAC-DF739E0236B6@mac.com>
References: <75D36093-D9D0-48EF-ACAC-DF739E0236B6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <239FF1D4-67E4-4D4C-9FE1-07B60DF27436@tfeb.org>

On 10 Dec 2008, at 00:30, Lord Doomicus wrote:
>
> Anyone ever use it for anything?  Has anyone even noticed it  
> before?  I'll have to boot my Crimson to see if IRIX has it.
I remember a bs command (which was some kind of mini-BASIC) in the   
4.2BSD machine I first used.  However it may have been added by the  
vendor rather than have been in 4.2BSD proper.

I used it at the time, and have occasionally missed it since - nothing  
I now use regularly  (OSX and Solaris) seems to have it.

--tim


From neozeed at gmail.com  Thu Dec 11 00:29:49 2008
From: neozeed at gmail.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:29:49 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] /usr/bin/bs on HPUX?
In-Reply-To: <75D36093-D9D0-48EF-ACAC-DF739E0236B6@mac.com>
References: <75D36093-D9D0-48EF-ACAC-DF739E0236B6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <46b366130812100629y696b9a63q4ab58c4afd230af8@mail.gmail.com>

I just fired up my copy of 4.2 on simh....

4.2 BSD UNIX (myname)
login: root
Last login: Thu Sep  8 19:45:39 on console
4.2 BSD UNIX #3: Thu Sep 8 08:46:54 PDT 1983
Would you like to play a game?
You have mail.
Don't login as root, use su
myname# cd /bin
myname# ls bs
bs not found
myname# which bs
no bs in /etc /usr/ucb /bin /usr/bin /usr/local /usr/hosts .
myname# man bs
No manual entry for bs.
myname#

Sorry that wasn't much help.....
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From cowan at ccil.org  Thu Dec 11 04:08:26 2008
From: cowan at ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:08:26 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] /usr/bin/bs on HPUX?
In-Reply-To: <75D36093-D9D0-48EF-ACAC-DF739E0236B6@mac.com>
References: <75D36093-D9D0-48EF-ACAC-DF739E0236B6@mac.com>
Message-ID: <20081210180826.GE1746@mercury.ccil.org>

Lord Doomicus scripsit:

> I was poking around an HP UX system at work today, and noticed a  
> command I've never noticed before ... /usr/bin/bs.
> 
> I'm sure it's been there for a long time, even though I've been an  
> HPUX admin for more than a decade, sometimes I'm just blind ... but  
> anyway ....
> 
> I tried to search on google ... it looks like only HPUX, AIX, and  
> Maybe AU/X has it.  Seems to be some kind of pseudo BASIC like  
> interpreter.

That's just what it is.  Here are the things I now know about it.

0.  The string "bs" gets an awful lot of false Google hits, no matter
how hard you try.

1.  "bs" was written at AT&T, probably at the Labs, at some time between
the release of 32V and System III.  It was part of both System III and
at least some System V releases.

2.  It was probably meant as a replacement for "bas", which was a more
conventional GW-Basic-style interpreter written in PDP-11 assembly
language.  (32V still had the PDP-11 source, which of course didn't work.)

3.  At one time System III source code was available on the net,
including bs.c and bs.1, but apparently it no longer is.  I downloaded
it then but don't have it any more.

4.  I was able to compile it under several Unixes, but it wouldn't run:
I think there must have been some kind of dependency on memory layout,
but never found out exactly what.

5. I remember from the man page that it had regular expressions, and
two commands "compile" and "execute" that switched modes to storing
expressions and executing them on the spot, respectively.  That eliminated
the need for line numbers.

6. It was apparently never part of Solaris.

7. It was never part of any BSD release, on which "bs" was the battleships
game.

8. I can't find the man page on line anywhere either.

9. The man page said it had some Snobol features.  I think that meant
the ability to return failure -- I vaguely remember an "freturn" command.

10.  99 Bottles of Beer has a sample bs program at
http://www2.99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-bs-103.html .

11. If someone sends me a man page, I'll consider reimplementing it as
Open Source.

-- 
We are lost, lost.  No name, no business, no Precious, nothing.  Only empty.
Only hungry: yes, we are hungry.  A few little fishes, nassty bony little
fishes, for a poor creature, and they say death.  So wise they are; so just,
so very just.  --Gollum        cowan at ccil.org  http://ccil.org/~cowan


From jrvalverde at cnb.csic.es  Thu Dec 18 00:27:26 2008
From: jrvalverde at cnb.csic.es (Jose R. Valverde)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:27:26 +0100
Subject: [TUHS]  /usr/bin/bs on HPUX?
Message-ID: <20081217152726.24f01d4e@cnb.csic.es>

Bit of digging:

> 1.  "bs" was written at AT&T, probably at the Labs, at some time between
> the release of 32V and System III.  It was part of both System III and
> at least some System V releases.

And of course it is in TUHS! Remember we have 32V and SIII. For example,
look into 

	TUHS/Other/Distributions/Plexis_Sys3/
or
	TUHS/PDP-11/Distributions/usdl/SysIII/

The sources contain 'bs' under cmd/bs

The latter one (under USDL) contains also the man page under usr/src/man/man1
(as 'bs.1').

So, there. You have it.

This leads me to consider we would greatly benefit from an expanded and
indexed TUHS repository tree. I made one on my mirror long ago, but a
series of disk crashes ended with it. Maybe, if there is interest I
could do it again.

				
			    j
-- 
			EMBnet/CNB
		Scientific Computing Service
	Solving all your computer needs for Scientific
			Research.

		http://bioportal.cnb.csic.es
		  http://www.es.embnet.org


From cowan at ccil.org  Thu Dec 18 01:39:45 2008
From: cowan at ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:39:45 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] /usr/bin/bs on HPUX?
In-Reply-To: <20081217152726.24f01d4e@cnb.csic.es>
References: <20081217152726.24f01d4e@cnb.csic.es>
Message-ID: <20081217153945.GE12605@mercury.ccil.org>

Jose R. Valverde scripsit:

> And of course it is in TUHS! Remember we have 32V and SIII. For example,
> look into 
> 
> 	TUHS/Other/Distributions/Plexis_Sys3/
> or
> 	TUHS/PDP-11/Distributions/usdl/SysIII/

As I pointed out in my previous post, both of these directories have
been removed from minnie, presumably because there is doubt about
the licensing status of System III.  Among the listed mirrors
at http://minnie.tuhs.org/TUHS/archive_sites.html , at least
unix-archive.pdp11.org.ru still has copies.

-- 
Go, and never darken my towels again!           John Cowan
        --Rufus T. Firefly                      http://ccil.org/~cowan


From lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org  Thu Dec 18 02:14:24 2008
From: lyricalnanoha at usotsuki.hoshinet.org (lyricalnanoha)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:14:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] /usr/bin/bs on HPUX?
In-Reply-To: <20081217153945.GE12605@mercury.ccil.org>
References: <20081217152726.24f01d4e@cnb.csic.es>
	<20081217153945.GE12605@mercury.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.0.99.0812171113040.18248@andisteele.dosius.ath.cx>

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, John Cowan wrote:

> Jose R. Valverde scripsit:
>
>> And of course it is in TUHS! Remember we have 32V and SIII. For example,
>> look into
>>
>> 	TUHS/Other/Distributions/Plexis_Sys3/
>> or
>> 	TUHS/PDP-11/Distributions/usdl/SysIII/
>
> As I pointed out in my previous post, both of these directories have
> been removed from minnie, presumably because there is doubt about
> the licensing status of System III.  Among the listed mirrors
> at http://minnie.tuhs.org/TUHS/archive_sites.html , at least
> unix-archive.pdp11.org.ru still has copies.

Hm.  I had it already.

*grovels through the source*

it's using a very bizarre form of longjmp()... was that the normal syntax 
in sys3?  it's using a struct, instead of the two parameters glibc wants.

(yeah yeah, I know, EW GNU, but I just wanted to see what I was up 
against.  That's the only thing spitting errors but there's a ton of 
warnings.)

-uso.


From cowan at ccil.org  Thu Dec 18 02:35:51 2008
From: cowan at ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:35:51 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] /usr/bin/bs on HPUX?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.0.99.0812171113040.18248@andisteele.dosius.ath.cx>
References: <20081217152726.24f01d4e@cnb.csic.es>
	<20081217153945.GE12605@mercury.ccil.org>
	<alpine.DEB.0.99.0812171113040.18248@andisteele.dosius.ath.cx>
Message-ID: <20081217163550.GF12605@mercury.ccil.org>

lyricalnanoha scripsit:

> it's using a very bizarre form of longjmp()... was that the normal syntax 
> in sys3?  it's using a struct, instead of the two parameters glibc wants.

v7 wants two parameters too.  This was probably some attempt at cleanup that
didn't survive.

To fork a hacker nursery rhyme:

System III!  System III!
See how it runs!  See how it runs!
Its longjmp() loses so totally,
It runs all its programs in 'I & D',
It's made by our fav'rite monopoly,
System III!

-- 
"Well, I'm back."  --Sam        John Cowan <cowan at ccil.org>


From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu Dec 18 09:05:30 2008
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:05:30 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX Filesystems with FUSE
Message-ID: <20081217230530.GA64474@minnie.tuhs.org>

http://osxbook.com/software/ancientfs/

Amit Singh has added support for a whole bunch of early UNIX filesystem and
archive formats to FUSE.

Cheers,
	Warren


From cowan at ccil.org  Thu Dec 18 09:16:46 2008
From: cowan at ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:16:46 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX Filesystems with FUSE
In-Reply-To: <20081217230530.GA64474@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20081217230530.GA64474@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20081217231645.GC28193@mercury.ccil.org>

Warren Toomey scripsit:
> http://osxbook.com/software/ancientfs/
> 
> Amit Singh has added support for a whole bunch of early UNIX filesystem and
> archive formats to FUSE.

Does this depend heavily on OS X, or should it work on Linux and BSD as well?

-- 
Some people open all the Windows;       John Cowan
wise wives welcome the spring           cowan at ccil.org
by moving the Unix.                     http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
  --ad for Unix Book Units (U.K.)
        (see http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/unix3image.gif)


From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu Dec 18 09:22:41 2008
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:22:41 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX Filesystems with FUSE
In-Reply-To: <20081217231645.GC28193@mercury.ccil.org>
References: <20081217230530.GA64474@minnie.tuhs.org>
	<20081217231645.GC28193@mercury.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <20081217232241.GA64798@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 06:16:46PM -0500, John Cowan wrote:
> > Amit Singh has added support for a whole bunch of early UNIX filesystem and
> > archive formats to FUSE.
> Does this depend heavily on OS X, or should it work on Linux and BSD as well?

No idea. I had a brief look at some of the code on the web site and it seems
relatively neutral, but I have not downloaded it yet. I've sent an e-mail
with the same question to Amit.

	Warren


From norman at oclsc.org  Thu Dec 18 09:46:44 2008
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:46:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX Filesystems with FUSE
Message-ID: <1229557604.28312.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

John Cowan:

> Does this depend heavily on OS X, or should it work on Linux and BSD as well?

Warren Krun Toomey:

  No idea. I had a brief look at some of the code on the web site and it seems
  relatively neutral, but I have not downloaded it yet. I've sent an e-mail
  with the same question to Amit.

======

I keep meaning to poke about at FUSE, since it plays more or
less the role of the file-server-implementation library setup
I wrote for my own purposes 20 years ago (in the context of a
UNIX variant that cannot yet be distributed freely).

But I'd be surprised if the stuff was terribly MacOS X dependent.
Certainly FUSE exists in Linux, and the libraries and requisite
kernel module are even included in some Linux distributions
(notably recent editions of Fedora), because sshfs is built atop
FUSE.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu Dec 18 10:13:21 2008
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 01:13:21 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX Filesystems with FUSE
In-Reply-To: <20081217232241.GA64798@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20081217230530.GA64474@minnie.tuhs.org>	<20081217231645.GC28193@mercury.ccil.org>
	<20081217232241.GA64798@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <494995A1.3080109@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Warren Toomey skrev:
> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 06:16:46PM -0500, John Cowan wrote:
>>> Amit Singh has added support for a whole bunch of early UNIX filesystem and
>>> archive formats to FUSE.
>> Does this depend heavily on OS X, or should it work on Linux and BSD as well?
> 
> No idea. I had a brief look at some of the code on the web site and it seems
> relatively neutral, but I have not downloaded it yet. I've sent an e-mail
> with the same question to Amit.

OK, a checkout and compile-attempt later I can tell you that it doesn't 
cook directly out of the box into the pot. Should not be that much magic 
to get it cooking thought.

Cheers,
Magnus


From cowan at ccil.org  Thu Dec 18 10:27:20 2008
From: cowan at ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 19:27:20 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX Filesystems with FUSE
In-Reply-To: <1229557604.28312.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1229557604.28312.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <20081218002720.GB9007@mercury.ccil.org>

Norman Wilson scripsit:

> I keep meaning to poke about at FUSE, since it plays more or
> less the role of the file-server-implementation library setup
> I wrote for my own purposes 20 years ago (in the context of a
> UNIX variant that cannot yet be distributed freely).

"Cannot yet" is good.  Is there any hope of seeing the 10th Edition
emerge from the shadows, ever?

-- 
We pledge allegiance to the penguin             John Cowan
and to the intellectual property regime         cowan at ccil.org
for which he stands, one world under            http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Linux, with free music and open source
software for all.               --Julian Dibbell on Brazil, edited


From lorddoomicus at mac.com  Thu Dec 18 09:55:24 2008
From: lorddoomicus at mac.com (Lord Doomicus)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:55:24 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] /usr/bin/bs on HPUX?
In-Reply-To: <20081217163550.GF12605@mercury.ccil.org>
References: <20081217152726.24f01d4e@cnb.csic.es>
	<20081217153945.GE12605@mercury.ccil.org>
	<alpine.DEB.0.99.0812171113040.18248@andisteele.dosius.ath.cx>
	<20081217163550.GF12605@mercury.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <E3303491-1270-4852-AE27-C76E7E68085C@mac.com>


On Dec 17, 2008, at 11:35 AM, John Cowan wrote:

> lyricalnanoha scripsit:
>
>> it's using a very bizarre form of longjmp()... was that the normal  
>> syntax
>> in sys3?  it's using a struct, instead of the two parameters glibc  
>> wants.
>
> v7 wants two parameters too.  This was probably some attempt at  
> cleanup that
> didn't survive.
>
> To fork a hacker nursery rhyme:
>
> System III!  System III!
> See how it runs!  See how it runs!
> Its longjmp() loses so totally,
> It runs all its programs in 'I & D',
> It's made by our fav'rite monopoly,
> System III!


Yea, I got the same thing when I tried compile it under OS X.  I know  
HPUX has it, so I checked the man page for longjmp under HPUX, and  
like OS X, it takes two parameters.  So, someplace, there is a version  
of the bs source that has the correct longjmp system call.   But, it  
may only be in the HPUX source tree.  I should boot up one of my SGI's  
and have a look to see if it has bs, and what version of longjmp it  
uses.

- Derrik

Derrik Walker v2.0, RHCE
lorddoomicus at mac.com
http://www.doomd.net

"There's nothing nice about Steve Jobs and there's nothing evil about  
Bill Gates."
	-- Chuck Peddle, MOS 6502 Chip Designer

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From norman at oclsc.org  Thu Dec 18 11:32:50 2008
From: norman at oclsc.org (Norman Wilson)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:32:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX Systems with netb (was Filesystems with FUSE)
Message-ID: <1229564341.1920.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>

John Cowan:

  "Cannot yet" is good.  Is there any hope of seeing the 10th Edition
  emerge from the shadows, ever?

=======

Unless some energetic person skilled at nudging people in
a friendly way takes on the cause, probably not.

Even were Novell to release the source code to System V,
that wouldn't of itself make 10/e open, since there's plenty
in the latter system that differs substantially from the
former--all the really interesting bits, in fact.  As has
been discussed here at some point in the past, someone would
have to get (updated list of players) Novell, AT&T, and Alcatel
all to agree to the release.  The good news is that that would
probably mostly require getting Novell to agree that there's
nothing in the system worth protecting for commercial reasons,
and the others just to officially say what is already likely
true, that they don't care.  The bad news is that that is
probably substantial work, as he who talked what was then SCO
into a hobbyist-source-license for 7/e and predecessors knows well.

But Warren has already gone far beyond the call in his work
(and cannot be thanked enough, so herewith I thank him yet
again); and I'm old and tired and was never really good at
talking to corporate types anyway; and in my humble but correct
opinion, it is the combination of energy and dedication and
ability to talk cheerfully to corporate times and to persist
without losing either hope or patience or cordiality that
is needed.  That has always been a rare combination.

If someone thinks he or she has the requisite skills and wants
to have a go, I'll be glad to offer what little help I can,
and I'm sure Warren likewise.  But somehow I wonder whether
it will actually happen before the world ends on 2038 January
18.

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON


From lm at bitmover.com  Thu Dec 18 11:53:51 2008
From: lm at bitmover.com (Larry McVoy)
Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:53:51 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX Systems with netb (was Filesystems with FUSE)
In-Reply-To: <1229564341.1920.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
References: <1229564341.1920.for-standards-violators@oclsc.org>
Message-ID: <20081218015350.GE22766@bitmover.com>

> Unless some energetic person skilled at nudging people in
> a friendly way takes on the cause, probably not.

Energetic?  At 46, running a company for 10 years, hmm, less so.
Skilled in nudging people in a friendly way, hmm, google me.
Effective?  Yes.
Willing?  Yes.

Not sure if that helps.  Who are the players?
-- 
---
Larry McVoy                lm at bitmover.com           http://www.bitkeeper.com


From wkt at tuhs.org  Thu Dec 18 17:19:41 2008
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:19:41 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX Filesystems with FUSE
In-Reply-To: <20081217231645.GC28193@mercury.ccil.org>
References: <20081217230530.GA64474@minnie.tuhs.org>
	<20081217231645.GC28193@mercury.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <20081218071941.GA70009@minnie.tuhs.org>

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 06:16:46PM -0500, John Cowan wrote:
> > Amit Singh has added support for a whole bunch of early UNIX filesystem and
> > archive formats to FUSE.
> Does this depend heavily on OS X, or should it work on Linux and BSD as well?

Amit says:

  As for portability, yes, I have kept AncientFS limited to the cross
  platform FUSE API (MacFUSE supports much more than the FUSE API). So,
  it should work on other FUSE implementations with few changes.

Cheers,
	Warren


From lehmann at ans-netz.de  Thu Dec 18 20:14:03 2008
From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann)
Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:14:03 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] Old UNIX Filesystems with FUSE
In-Reply-To: <20081218071941.GA70009@minnie.tuhs.org>
References: <20081217230530.GA64474@minnie.tuhs.org>
	<20081217231645.GC28193@mercury.ccil.org>
	<20081218071941.GA70009@minnie.tuhs.org>
Message-ID: <20081218101403.94009.qmail@avocado.salatschuessel.net>

Hi, 

Warren Toomey writes: 

>   As for portability, yes, I have kept AncientFS limited to the cross
>   platform FUSE API (MacFUSE supports much more than the FUSE API). So,
>   it should work on other FUSE implementations with few changes.

I've modified the code so compiles on FreeBSD but dlsym() still does not 
work: 

root at nudel ancientfs> ./ancientfs --type v7 --dmg v7_rl02_1145 /mnt/tmp
Undefined symbol "unixfs_v7"
invalid file system type v7
Exit 255 

dlsym() is kinda new to me so I'm a bit lost... 

I've uploaded a diff to the svn checkout which is mentioned on Amits page 
here: 

http://pofo.de/tmp/ancientfs_20081218_01.diff 

The changes are
 - casting to satisfy %llu and %lu printf
 - Makefile adjustments
 - enhance endian checks to support BYTE_ORDER
 - work around undefined OSSwap functions


From wkt at tuhs.org  Tue Dec 23 08:53:31 2008
From: wkt at tuhs.org (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:53:31 +1000
Subject: [TUHS] AncientFS ported to Linux and FreeBSD
Message-ID: <20081222225331.GA48343@minnie.tuhs.org>

Guys, Amit wrote in:

  http://www.osxbook.com/blog/2008/12/22/ancientfs-on-linux-and-freebsd/
  By popular demand, I've "ported" AncientFS to Linux and FreeBSD.

Cheers & Merry Xmas to you all,
	Warren


