From brad at heeltoe.com  Tue Jan 20 09:38:37 2004
From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:38:37 -0500
Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards?
Message-ID: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com>


Hi,

I asked this on the classic computer list and I thought I'd ask here
also...

Does anyone have any thoughts on how hard it would be to make a unibus
board which is an IDE controller?

I have 4-6 layer boards fabbed regularly and use modern CPLD's & VHDL on
a regular basis, so the building part looks easy.

I've never looked at unibus controlleqr schematic, but plan to.  I'm
assuming much of the old ttl can be sucked into something like a Xilinx
coolrunner CPLD...

I also assume it's reasonably straightforward TTL, and at (by today's
standards) slow speed... true?

Any hints, or gotcha's as far as fabrication or interface?  Has anyone
done this (in the modern day, that is :-)

My plan would be to build a 4 layer board of suitable thickness with
gold fingers, using an existing board for reference (any physical size
specs I could read?)

I'm well aware of the foolishness of this on one level, but there's a
side of me that really enjoys this sort of thing...  perhaps medication
would help :-)

-brad


From bqt at update.uu.se  Tue Jan 20 10:35:33 2004
From: bqt at update.uu.se (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 01:35:33 +0100 (CET)
Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards?
In-Reply-To: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com>
References: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0401200133570.5507@Tempo.Update.UU.SE>

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004, Brad Parker wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I asked this on the classic computer list and I thought I'd ask here
> also...
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on how hard it would be to make a unibus
> board which is an IDE controller?

Probably not hard at all, from a hardware point of view. The Unibus is
well documented, and as you noted, slow.

The only possible gotcha is that you better make sure you give enough
power for the signals. A unibus can be several meters long.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

From michael_davidson at pacbell.net  Tue Jan 20 16:39:33 2004
From: michael_davidson at pacbell.net (Michael Davidson)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:39:33 -0800
Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards?
References: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com>
Message-ID: <003801c3df20$2ad8baa0$eb8ca140@ca.sco.com>

----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com>
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on how hard it would be to make a unibus
> board which is an IDE controller?

It should be very simple.

Several people have built IDE controllers for the QBUS.

ftp://digital.dp.ua/DEC/ata/README.txt

http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/

A unibus controller will be very similar except for the obvious
differences in the bus interface.

> I've never looked at unibus controlleqr schematic, but plan to.  I'm
> assuming much of the old ttl can be sucked into something like a Xilinx
> coolrunner CPLD...

Yes, but assuming that you are only implementing programmed i/o
there will be so little logic involved that you might as well just use
discrete TTL.

In fact, DEC used to make single height modules which did address
selection and interrupt control (M105 and M7821). If you could find
a pair of those, your work would be almost completely done for you.

> I also assume it's reasonably straightforward TTL, and at (by today's
> standards) slow speed... true?

Yes - very straightforward.

>
> Any hints, or gotcha's as far as fabrication or interface?  Has anyone
> done this (in the modern day, that is :-)

Yes, make sure that you use appropriate bus transceivers, In particular,
make sure that your bus drivers conform to the unibus spec, can sink
sufficient current, and do not have rise times that faster than the spec
allows.



From iking at killthewabbit.org  Tue Jan 20 17:03:35 2004
From: iking at killthewabbit.org (Ian King)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 23:03:35 -0800
Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards?
References: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com>
	<003801c3df20$2ad8baa0$eb8ca140@ca.sco.com>
Message-ID: <007201c3df23$858c9c20$f10010ac@dawabbit>

BTW, there's a company called Douglas Electronics (http://www.douglas.com) that
sells DEC-style breadboards; I've purchased a couple of extenders from them, and
they were of good quality and promptly shipped.  -- Ian

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Davidson" <michael_davidson at pacbell.net>
To: "Brad Parker" <brad at heeltoe.com>; <pups at minnie.tuhs.org>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards?


----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com>
>
> Does anyone have any thoughts on how hard it would be to make a unibus
> board which is an IDE controller?

It should be very simple.

Several people have built IDE controllers for the QBUS.

ftp://digital.dp.ua/DEC/ata/README.txt

http://www.chd.dyndns.org/qbus_ide/

A unibus controller will be very similar except for the obvious
differences in the bus interface.

> I've never looked at unibus controlleqr schematic, but plan to.  I'm
> assuming much of the old ttl can be sucked into something like a Xilinx
> coolrunner CPLD...

Yes, but assuming that you are only implementing programmed i/o
there will be so little logic involved that you might as well just use
discrete TTL.

In fact, DEC used to make single height modules which did address
selection and interrupt control (M105 and M7821). If you could find
a pair of those, your work would be almost completely done for you.

> I also assume it's reasonably straightforward TTL, and at (by today's
> standards) slow speed... true?

Yes - very straightforward.

>
> Any hints, or gotcha's as far as fabrication or interface?  Has anyone
> done this (in the modern day, that is :-)

Yes, make sure that you use appropriate bus transceivers, In particular,
make sure that your bus drivers conform to the unibus spec, can sink
sufficient current, and do not have rise times that faster than the spec
allows.


_______________________________________________
PUPS mailing list
PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org
http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue Jan 20 19:22:38 2004
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:22:38 +0100
Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards?
In-Reply-To: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com>
References: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com>
Message-ID: <20040120102238.09ba8fb9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:38:37 -0500
Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> wrote:

> Does anyone have any thoughts on how hard it would be to make a unibus
> board which is an IDE controller?
> 
> I have 4-6 layer boards fabbed regularly and use modern CPLD's & VHDL
> on a regular basis, so the building part looks easy.
I see two problems:
1. Bus transciever chips.
2. Software interface.

Most likely you want MSCP, but implementing a UDA50 clone is not quite
trivial. It is doable, but it would be quite some effort to write the
firmware for the controler processor. Maybe you can also implement other
emulations for RL02 or RK07 or ... That should be simpler then MSCP.
-- 


tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/


From dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca  Tue Jan 20 23:58:31 2004
From: dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca (David Evans)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:58:31 -0500
Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards?
In-Reply-To: <003801c3df20$2ad8baa0$eb8ca140@ca.sco.com>
References: <200401192338.i0JNcb121320@mwave.heeltoe.com>
	<003801c3df20$2ad8baa0$eb8ca140@ca.sco.com>
Message-ID: <20040120135831.GB10019@bcr10.uwaterloo.ca>

On Mon, Jan 19, 2004 at 10:39:33PM -0800, Michael Davidson wrote:
> Several people have built IDE controllers for the QBUS.
> 
> ftp://digital.dp.ua/DEC/ata/README.txt
> 

  This one even claims to have a Unibus variant!

> Yes, but assuming that you are only implementing programmed i/o
> there will be so little logic involved that you might as well just use
> discrete TTL.
> 

  I think that's what the above gizmo does.  However, a DMA engine may not
be difficult with the appropriate FPGA.

-- 
David Evans                                         dfevans at bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie     http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
University of Waterloo         "Default is the value selected by the composer
Ontario, Canada           overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

From brad at heeltoe.com  Thu Jan 22 02:50:55 2004
From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:50:55 -0500
Subject: [pups] roll-your-own-unibus boards? 
In-Reply-To: Message from Jochen Kunz <jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> 
	<20040120102238.09ba8fb9.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> 
Message-ID: <200401211650.i0LGotq05854@mwave.heeltoe.com>


Jochen Kunz wrote:
...
>I see two problems:
>1. Bus transciever chips.

Yes, this is the big one.  It turns out to be solvable, but not using
IC's.  National DS3862 would be good, but it just went out of production...

I'm looking into making a "trapzoidal driver" (i.e. controlled edges)
using a FET and RC on the gate.  Someone else suggested it and it
sounded like a good idea.  Certainly easy to model/simulate first.

-brad


From kstailey at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  2 09:30:06 2004
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2004 15:30:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX
Message-ID: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>

http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/

Site discusses what it was like to use A/UX, why Apple discontinued it, etc.


__________________________________
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Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
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From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Fri Jan  2 17:53:47 2004
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 20:53:47 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX
In-Reply-To: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200401022053.47399.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

I would be interested to know if there is any chance of getting a hobbyist 
A/UX license out of Apple.  It would be even better if one also got source 
code, but I also have a hankering for an Aeronautical Pigs Aerobatics Team in 
the RNZAF - pigs taken out of pig farms and taught to fly, of course -, and 
that is far more likely to happen ... ;)

Wesley Parish

On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:30, Kenneth Stailey wrote:
> http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/
>
> Site discusses what it was like to use A/UX, why Apple discontinued it,
> etc.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs

-- 
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.  RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."


From wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl  Fri Jan  2 20:13:55 2004
From: wkb at freebie.xs4all.nl (Wilko Bulte)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:13:55 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX
In-Reply-To: <200401022053.47399.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>
	<200401022053.47399.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <20040102101355.GA63342@freebie.xs4all.nl>

On Fri, Jan 02, 2004 at 08:53:47PM +1300, Wesley Parish wrote:

My suggestion would be to ask Jordan Hubbard (jkh at FreeBSD.org),
maybe he has any idea how feasible this would be

Wilko

> I would be interested to know if there is any chance of getting a hobbyist 
> A/UX license out of Apple.  It would be even better if one also got source 
> code, but I also have a hankering for an Aeronautical Pigs Aerobatics Team in 
> the RNZAF - pigs taken out of pig farms and taught to fly, of course -, and 
> that is far more likely to happen ... ;)
> 
> Wesley Parish
> 
> On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:30, Kenneth Stailey wrote:
> > http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/
> >
> > Site discusses what it was like to use A/UX, why Apple discontinued it,
> > etc.
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> > http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
> > _______________________________________________
> > TUHS mailing list
> > TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> > http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> -- 
> Wesley Parish
> * * *
> Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.  RIP James Blish
> * * *
> Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
> You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
> Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
> I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
---end of quoted text---

-- 
Wilko Bulte			wkb at xs4all.nl

From patv at monmouth.com  Fri Jan  2 22:15:58 2004
From: patv at monmouth.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 07:15:58 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX
In-Reply-To: <20040102101355.GA63342@freebie.xs4all.nl>
References: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>
 <200401022053.47399.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
 <20040102101355.GA63342@freebie.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <3FF560FE.9050305@monmouth.com>

I would agree with Wesley -- not feasible at all.

 From the FAQ quoted in the article, "A/UX is based on AT&T Unix System 
V.2.2 with numerous extensions from V.3, V.4 (such as streams) and BSD 
4.2/4.3 (such as networking, the Fast File System, job control, lpr, NFS 
with Yellow Pages, SCCS and sendmail 5.64)."  This is code in dispute in 
SCO v. IBM, a.k.a. SCO v. Linux and Open Source.

According to SCO, it is System V.* code that was supposedly stolen and 
used in Linux.  I exceptionally doubt you can get that code released as 
open source by SCO because that would kill the case.  Additionally, I 
doubt you can get free binaries, as someone has to pay the royalties 
that Apple would owe SCO for each copy.

Pat

Wilko Bulte wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 02, 2004 at 08:53:47PM +1300, Wesley Parish wrote:
> 
> My suggestion would be to ask Jordan Hubbard (jkh at FreeBSD.org),
> maybe he has any idea how feasible this would be
> 
> Wilko
> 
> 
>>I would be interested to know if there is any chance of getting a hobbyist 
>>A/UX license out of Apple.  It would be even better if one also got source 
>>code, but I also have a hankering for an Aeronautical Pigs Aerobatics Team in 
>>the RNZAF - pigs taken out of pig farms and taught to fly, of course -, and 
>>that is far more likely to happen ... ;)
>>
>>Wesley Parish
>>
>>On Fri, 02 Jan 2004 12:30, Kenneth Stailey wrote:
>>
>>>http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/
>>>
>>>Site discusses what it was like to use A/UX, why Apple discontinued it,
>>>etc.
>>>
>>>
>>>__________________________________
>>>Do you Yahoo!?
>>>Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
>>>http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>TUHS mailing list
>>>TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>>http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>>
>>-- 
>>Wesley Parish
>>* * *
>>Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.  RIP James Blish
>>* * *
>>Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
>>You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
>>Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
>>I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>TUHS mailing list
>>TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
>>http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
> 
> ---end of quoted text---
> 

-- 
Tact is the ability to describe others as they see themselves. -- 
Abraham Lincoln



From kstailey at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  3 00:02:33 2004
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 06:02:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] earily Supnik paper on SIM the precursor to SIMH
Message-ID: <20040102140233.34911.qmail@web60504.mail.yahoo.com>

http://research.compaq.com/wrl/DECarchives/DTJ/DTJN02/DTJN02HM.HTM

This web page also discusses restoring actual DEC hardware.


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From kstailey at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  3 00:17:52 2004
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 06:17:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now?
Message-ID: <20040102141752.75690.qmail@web60506.mail.yahoo.com>

Hi,

When 4.4BSD-lite was released one of the 4.4BSD encumbered things that was cut
was the online courseware program, learn(1).  When I purchased my copy of _The
CSRG Archives_ CDROM set I was told in E-mail by McKusick that I did not need
to sign any license agreements.  I am assuming that this is due to Caldera
proclaiming that V32 sources and binaries could be redistributed by the public
legally.  In the CDROM set is a fully encumbered 4.4BSD source tree which
includes the learn(1) source code.  I spent a few hours last night porting it
to NetBSD and FreeBSD and tightening up a few bits like gets() vs. fgets().  I
haven't finished and have yet to distributed the results.  I also have yet to
get the vi lesson data which the source code that I do have says came on a
separate user-contributed tape.

I got here because I have newbies in my life now and I need UNIX online
courseware.  The only thing I could find in the FreeBSD ports tree was
something called vilearn.

I'm wondering about distributing the results of my porting effort once it
matures enough to be worth doing so.

Thanks,
Ken


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From tuhs at rops.org  Sat Jan  3 00:36:38 2004
From: tuhs at rops.org (Roger Willcocks)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:36:38 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX
References: <20040101233006.83124.qmail@web60508.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <001c01c3d13d$d4c24ea0$2301a8c0@burton>

There's another take on the various favours of Apple Unix at

http://www.cfcl.com/~eryk/weblog/archives/000183.html

<quote>
Depending on how you count that is six or seven unices spread over the last
twenty years:


1) Unix for the Lisa
2) Unix for the YACC
3) A/UX
4) AiX
5) MkLinux
6) Rhapsody
7) Mac OS X
</quote>

--
Roger

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kenneth Stailey" <kstailey at yahoo.com>
To: <tuhs at tuhs.org>
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 11:30 PM
Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX


> http://www.applefritter.com/ui/aux/
>
> Site discusses what it was like to use A/UX, why Apple discontinued it,
etc.
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
> _______________________________________________
> TUHS mailing list
> TUHS at minnie.tuhs.org
> http://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/tuhs
>


From tuhs at rops.org  Sat Jan  3 03:13:52 2004
From: tuhs at rops.org (Roger Willcocks)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 17:13:52 -0000
Subject: [TUHS] 
	m68k SVR2 on Perq (was: web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX)
Message-ID: <006401c3d153$cb7cf280$2301a8c0@burton>

Incidentally, the Unisoft m68k port of SVR2 at the core of A/UX was also
ported to the Perq-5 in 1986/1987, to create the Crosfield Studio 9500.

Perq had just folded, but a core group of ex-Perq employees worked with a
team from the UK company Crosfield Electronics to take the machine (which at
that time existed only as a wire-wrap prototype) through to production.

I was a member of that team and I have fond memories of sitting in a
basement office in Pittsburgh surrounded by kernel listings (with a very
puzzled look on my face).

Just a small footnote in Unix history...

--
Roger


From aek at spies.com  Sat Jan  3 03:49:39 2004
From: aek at spies.com (Al Kossow)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 09:49:39 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] web site detailing Apple's mc68k UNIX, A/UX
Message-ID: <200401021749.i02Hnduh031564@spies.com>




> I would be interested to know if there is any chance of getting a hobbyist 
> A/UX license out of Apple.

A/UX started out as a port of Unisoft SysV. Prior to version 2.0, there was
no Finder interface at all. A real history of the product should be done at
some point, as opposed to the half-baked opinions of someone who has only
seen a very late version of the product.

Since there were per-copy licensing fees to Unisoft, at least for the early
versions, it seems unlikely that a hobbyist license for A/UX would be possible.


From kstailey at yahoo.com  Sat Jan  3 05:47:56 2004
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:47:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now?
In-Reply-To: <0401021816.AA09263@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <20040102194756.9245.qmail@web60510.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Michael Sokolov <msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG> wrote:
> Kenneth Stailey <kstailey at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > When I purchased my copy of _The CSRG Archives_ CDROM set I was
> > told in E-mail by McKusick that I did not need> > to sign any
> > license agreements.  I am assuming that this is due to Caldera
> > proclaiming that V32 sources and binaries could be redistributed
> > by the public legally.
> 
> Yes, this is correct, this is the same reason why Warren was able to
> remove the password system from his UNIX Archive and make it
> completely open.

Warren, I see that there is a 4.4BSD-Alpha subdir in the TUHS archive.  Do you
want a final CSRG 4.4BSD tape to add there too?

> > I also have yet to get the vi lesson data which the source code
> > that I do have says came on a separate user-contributed tape.
>
> I just looked and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus has the vi lesson data as part of the
> standard system.

Thanks, I have to go through your archive for it now.

> > I got here because I have newbies in my life now and I need UNIX
> > online courseware.
>
> Hear hear.  I sometimes get into this situation too, usually when
> dating and getting faced with the need to teach a prospective female
> how to use a real operating system, since the one woman who finally
> makes it would absolutely have to use 4.3BSD-Quasijarus on my VAXen.

Oh, I was talking about co-workers.  There's been so many layoffs where I work
that I was hoping to get some more help.

> I looked into learn, but one thing it disappointed me with is that
> it's woefully outdated.  It starts by setting the tty erase and kill
> chars to '#' and '@' respectively and teaching you how to edit the
> command line on a hardcopy tty.  Well, OK, some would see this as
> good educational value, but the problem is, if you don't actually
> *have* a hardcopy tty, and most of us don't, it doesn't work too
> well.  It prints out lessons longer than 24 lines and they scroll
> off the top of the VT terminal.  It was definitely written with the
> assumption that one has a hardcopy tty with a long roll of
> continuous paper, and it expects the student to grab the paper
> coming out of the teletype and look at what's been printed, but it
> just doesn't work on a VT terminal.  Not to mention that in the end
> the lessons give the student little practical learning that would
> actually be useful when using UNIX on a CRT terminal.  (For example,
> it would be very practical to explain to the student the difference
> between ^H and ^? and teach him/her how to deal with it.)

It's so difficult being you.  I was able to save myself the time by
using the 4.4BSD version of learn(1) since it has already been
modified for CRT terminals.  You will have to re-invent the wheel
because of your politics.

> > I'm wondering about distributing the results of my porting effort
> > once it matures enough to be worth doing so.
>
>
> Well, as a I said 4.3BSD-Quasijarus contains learn and all other
> "encumbered code" and it is freely available via anonymous FTP from
> ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG, so...  BTW for those who missed it I released
> 4.3-QJ0b on 2003-12-07.

Thanks again.  I really do appreciate all the work you have done in this area.

> MS


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From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jan  3 04:16:50 2004
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 04 10:16:50 PST
Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now?
Message-ID: <0401021816.AA09263@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Kenneth Stailey <kstailey at yahoo.com> wrote:

> When I purchased my copy of _The
> CSRG Archives_ CDROM set I was told in E-mail by McKusick that I did not need
> to sign any license agreements.  I am assuming that this is due to Caldera
> proclaiming that V32 sources and binaries could be redistributed by the public
> legally.

Yes, this is correct, this is the same reason why Warren was able to remove the
password system from his UNIX Archive and make it completely open.

> In the CDROM set is a fully encumbered 4.4BSD source tree which
> includes the learn(1) source code.

Yup, I have it too (the whole CD-ROM set).  learn(1) is far older than 4.4BSD
though, and goes way back.  4.3BSD-Quasijarus has it too.

> I also have yet to
> get the vi lesson data which the source code that I do have says came on a
> separate user-contributed tape.

I just looked and 4.3BSD-Quasijarus has the vi lesson data as part of the
standard system.

> I got here because I have newbies in my life now and I need UNIX online
> courseware.

Hear hear.  I sometimes get into this situation too, usually when dating and
getting faced with the need to teach a prospective female how to use a real
operating system, since the one woman who finally makes it would absolutely
have to use 4.3BSD-Quasijarus on my VAXen.

I looked into learn, but one thing it disappointed me with is that it's
woefully outdated.  It starts by setting the tty erase and kill chars to '#'
and '@' respectively and teaching you how to edit the command line on a
hardcopy tty.  Well, OK, some would see this as good educational value, but the
problem is, if you don't actually *have* a hardcopy tty, and most of us don't,
it doesn't work too well.  It prints out lessons longer than 24 lines and they
scroll off the top of the VT terminal.  It was definitely written with the
assumption that one has a hardcopy tty with a long roll of continuous paper,
and it expects the student to grab the paper coming out of the teletype and
look at what's been printed, but it just doesn't work on a VT terminal.  Not to
mention that in the end the lessons give the student little practical learning
that would actually be useful when using UNIX on a CRT terminal.  (For example,
it would be very practical to explain to the student the difference between ^H
and ^? and teach him/her how to deal with it.)

> I'm wondering about distributing the results of my porting effort once it
> matures enough to be worth doing so.

Well, as a I said 4.3BSD-Quasijarus contains learn and all other "encumbered
code" and it is freely available via anonymous FTP from ifctfvax.Harhan.ORG,
so...  BTW for those who missed it I released 4.3-QJ0b on 2003-12-07.

MS

From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jan  3 06:40:12 2004
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 04 12:40:12 PST
Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now?
Message-ID: <0401022040.AA09379@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

Kenneth Stailey <kstailey at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Warren, I see that there is a 4.4BSD-Alpha subdir in the TUHS archive.  Do you
> want a final CSRG 4.4BSD tape to add there too?

I would definitely want an image of the 4.4BSD tape too!  But I do mean *tape*,
not what's on Kirk's CD-ROM.  I'm talking about a record-for-record image of
the Official Release Master tape.

> Thanks, I have to go through your archive for it now.

Actually I just took a closer look and it has been in the distributed
/usr/lib/learn since 4.3BSD, it was just never added to /usr/src/usr.lib/learn
for some reason (not even in Quasijarus, I probably didn't notice it).  So you
don't have to go through the pain of downloading a dist from Harhan to pull it
out of there, you can just take it from your CD-ROM set.

> It's so difficult being you.

:-)

> I was able to save myself the time by
> using the 4.4BSD version of learn(1) since it has already been
> modified for CRT terminals.  You will have to re-invent the wheel
> because of your politics.

Well I'll take a look at what they did to learn in 4.4BSD and see if any of it
is acceptable for Quasijarus.  Hopefully I won't have to reinvent the wheel.
I believe in adding new features without breaking or disturbing historical
stuff.  It feels so great knowing that my current modern OS (last release
2003-12-07 counts as current and modern to me) still has nearly all original V7
UNIX code almost completely untouched.  It's what gives me the right to call it
UNIX.

As far as learn goes I think I would need to add new lessons for UNIX on a CRT
or some options or somesuch, but I do NOT want to remove the facility for
teaching UNIX on a hardcopy tty.  That's such a gem, it should be kept!

MS

From norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca  Sat Jan  3 13:37:06 2004
From: norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson)
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2004 22:37:06 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now?
Message-ID: <20040103033824.5CD121E85@minnie.tuhs.org>

Michael Sokolov:

  It feels so great knowing that my current modern OS (last release
  2003-12-07 counts as current and modern to me) still has nearly all original V7
  UNIX code almost completely untouched.  It's what gives me the right to call it
  UNIX.

=======

You mean you've restored the original version of cat that had only one option,
and the version of ls that had fewer than a dozen and didn't care how wide
the screen was; that filenames are only 14 characters long; that fsck has
been abolished in favour of icheck and ncheck and dcheck; and that file system
blocks have returned to their original V7 size of 512 bytes?

My hat's off to you if so.

On the other hand, I have to question either your stability or that of your
system if you have reinstated the original V7 code implementing mpx(2).

Norman Wilson
Toronto ON
(who actually used the old multiplexor once, but had to fix it first!)

From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG  Sat Jan  3 14:53:21 2004
From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov)
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 04 20:53:21 PST
Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now?
Message-ID: <0401030453.AA09644@ivan.Harhan.ORG>

norman at nose.cs.utoronto.ca (Norman Wilson) wrote:

> You mean you've restored the original version of cat that had only one option,
> [...]

Notice my use of the words "nearly" and "almost" in the part you responded to.

Seriously though, you gotta agree that until 4.3BSD inclusive, Berkeley was
basically adding to and extending V7.  Sure they added a *lot* and extended
many of the existing facilities, but with very few exceptions, it was all
additive, virtually no V7 facility (except the mpx you mentioned) was removed.
Yes, they added fsck, but icheck is still there!  (No one uses it of course,
but knowing that nobody removed it gives a warm fuzzy feeling.)  The same goes
for almost everything else.

Here is the acid test: time-teleport a V7 user from 1979 to a VAX running
4.3BSD, set PATH=/bin:/usr/bin (no /usr/ucb), do stty old (old tty driver) and
stty ek (erase # kill @) and see if he feels at home or not.

Of course I never use my systems in this way, I make extensive use of Berkeley
UNIX facilities, but I like it much better to use a system that is additive
rather than substitutive with respect to Original UNIX.

MS

From sethm at loomcom.com  Sun Jan  4 05:27:48 2004
From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito)
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 11:27:48 -0800
Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now?
In-Reply-To: <0401030453.AA09644@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
References: <0401030453.AA09644@ivan.Harhan.ORG>
Message-ID: <EA5A7A46-3E22-11D8-8B7C-000393CC2C24@loomcom.com>


On Jan 2, 2004, at 8:53 PM, Michael Sokolov wrote:
> Here is the acid test: time-teleport a V7 user from 1979 to a VAX 
> running
> 4.3BSD, set PATH=/bin:/usr/bin (no /usr/ucb), do stty old (old tty 
> driver) and
> stty ek (erase # kill @) and see if he feels at home or not.

I suspect they would be horrified that more progress hadn't been made 
in computing environments in the last 25 years :)

In 1979, I was pretty excited when I thought about what computers could 
be like in the early 2000s.  We all love to preserve history, but 
there's something to be said for moving on and creating something new 
as well.

-Seth


From kstailey at yahoo.com  Fri Jan  9 02:43:32 2004
From: kstailey at yahoo.com (Kenneth Stailey)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 08:43:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [TUHS] MicroSoft Money Central Web Site on SCOX
Message-ID: <20040108164332.17263.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com>

This one was too good to not pass around.

http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/srs/srsmain.asp?Symbol=SCOX

The sites says (and I quote)

<< The SCO Group, Inc., a small-cap growth company in the technology sector, is
expected to significantly underperform the market over the next six months with
very high risk. >>


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From kwall at kurtwerks.com  Fri Jan  9 07:27:35 2004
From: kwall at kurtwerks.com (Kurt Wall)
Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2004 16:27:35 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] MicroSoft Money Central Web Site on SCOX
In-Reply-To: <20040108164332.17263.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com>
References: <20040108164332.17263.qmail@web60509.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20040108212735.GA6604@kurtwerks.com>

In a 0.6K blaze of typing glory, Kenneth Stailey wrote:
> This one was too good to not pass around.
> 
> http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/srs/srsmain.asp?Symbol=SCOX
> 
> The sites says (and I quote)
> 
><< The SCO Group, Inc., a small-cap growth company in the technology sector, is
>expected to significantly underperform the market over the next six months with
>very high risk. >>

"significantly underperform"?  What a very polite circumlocution for 
"crater."

Kurt
-- 
"The first rule of magic is simple.  Don't waste your time waving your
hands and hoping when a rock or a club will do."
		-- McCloctnik the Lucid

From asbesto at freaknet.org  Mon Jan 12 02:01:08 2004
From: asbesto at freaknet.org (asbesto)
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 16:01:08 +0000
Subject: [TUHS] medialab.dyndns.org blocked and no more exist, use
	medialab.freaknet.org instead!
Message-ID: <20040111160108.GA3360@freaknet.org>

medialab.dyndns.org blocked - medialab.freaknet.org is the solution!

dyndns.org blocked our domain "medialab.dyndns.org" for a not
well specified "account violation" problem. we're trying to solve
that, but the real problems is the large amount of google indexes
pointing to medialab.dyndns.org

this free domain was born when we was not able to register a "real"
domain. now we have freaknet.org and medialab.freaknet.org, but there's
nothing to do for all the old links resting into the net :)

this address is used from many users around the world, to telnet, 
ssh, rlogin and surf our free computer network!

so, here i announce that medialab.dyndns.org now is not working
anymore, and people can use medialab.freaknet.org instead. 

Hope this message will be soon indexed by google :)))

sorry for this - more details and all the story background can be
read at our main site, http://www.freaknet.org in the news section.

tnx all and god bless all PDP/11 in the world.

-- 
[asbesto : freaknet medialab : radio#cybernet : GPG key on  keyservers]
[ MAIL ATTACH, SPAM, HTML, WORD, and msgs larger than 95K > /dev/null ]
[http://www.freaknet.org/asbesto IW9HGS http://kyuzz.org/radiocybernet]
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From jrvalverde at cnb.uam.es  Mon Jan 12 20:18:44 2004
From: jrvalverde at cnb.uam.es (Jos R. Valverde)
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:18:44 +0100
Subject: [TUHS] is learn(1) free now?
Message-ID: <20040112111844.40aa04fd.jrvalverde@cnb.uam.es>

Learn is free. At least it's author, some unherad of guy named Brian 
Kernighan is making it publicly available on the Net through his
web page :-)

	http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/bwk/

It's been there for a long while.

I had a similar problem with novice users some years ago, and remembered
good old faithful 'learn' from Ultrix. I also remembered having compiled
it at some point in OSF/1. So I went to the net and started a search, and
lo! there it was at Brian's page.

I ported it to IRIX, which is where I had said novice users, and being at
it, to Linux as well. I must have the ported code somewhere but I'm on
Holidays now.

A look at AIX and Tru64 revealed it is still there in new versions of these,
which proved great for me: DWK code did not come with all the lessons I had
used before, and I could just copy the lessons from these systems over and 
use them with the port.

Therefore, yes, it is free, it is available on the Net, I have already ported
it to modern systems, and the lessons are still distributed with
some commercial UNIX variants should you need them.

				j
-- 
	These opinions are mine and only mine. Hey man, I saw them first!

			    José R. Valverde

	De nada sirve la Inteligencia Artificial cuando falta la Natural

From wes.parish at paradise.net.nz  Mon Jan 26 19:46:20 2004
From: wes.parish at paradise.net.nz (Wesley Parish)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 22:46:20 +1300
Subject: [TUHS] Sys III - Yet Again
Message-ID: <200401262246.20993.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>

I just thought of a reason _why_ Caldera was unable to clarify the status of 
System III - if you look at the documents on Groklaw.net, 
http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=legal-docs

one of them's a document between Novell and SCO Original, where the System V 
releases are enumerated.  Another is a similar document which mentions the 
Ancient Unix and their manuals as being part of the deal.

Neither document that I can recall, mentions anything about System III - and 
apparently Warren Toomey had to supply them with that, so it would appear 
that System III is - quite literally - unclaimed by anyone, apart from its 
copyright notices, and thus - since neither The SCO Group nor Novell has laid 
claim to it in their copyright battle - it could well be considered Public 
Domain.

Just a thought, and don't take my word for it.
-- 
Wesley Parish
* * *
Clinersterton beademung - in all of love.  RIP James Blish
* * *
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."


From Pat.Villani at hp.com  Tue Jan 27 00:54:58 2004
From: Pat.Villani at hp.com (Pat Villani)
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:54:58 -0500
Subject: [TUHS] Sys III - Yet Again
In-Reply-To: <200401262246.20993.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
References: <200401262246.20993.wes.parish@paradise.net.nz>
Message-ID: <40152A42.8080107@hp.com>

It's a bit more complicated than that, so no one should rush out and claim that 
System III is public domain.  Omission from this set of documentation does not 
mean that no one owns it.  Instead, it means that the original owner still owns 
it.  Whether that is AT&T, Unix Systems Labs, now defunct, or the lawful owners 
of its assets, Lucent Technologies, Novell or SCO is uncertain, but there is an 
owner.

In my opinion, the original asset purchase agreement and follow on amendments 
were poorly written and do not address the actual ownership of intellectual 
property.  It is my opinion that they have confused license to use and 
distribute with ownership, i.e., copyright.  They would have done well to look 
at book contracts and author agreements for a model.

Of course, that is my opinion, not that of HP or anyone associated with HP.  In 
addition, I am not a lawyer and anyone affected by these matters should seek 
legal counsel prior to taking any action.

Pat

Wesley Parish wrote:

> I just thought of a reason _why_ Caldera was unable to clarify the status of 
> System III - if you look at the documents on Groklaw.net, 
> http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=legal-docs
> 
> one of them's a document between Novell and SCO Original, where the System V 
> releases are enumerated.  Another is a similar document which mentions the 
> Ancient Unix and their manuals as being part of the deal.
> 
> Neither document that I can recall, mentions anything about System III - and 
> apparently Warren Toomey had to supply them with that, so it would appear 
> that System III is - quite literally - unclaimed by anyone, apart from its 
> copyright notices, and thus - since neither The SCO Group nor Novell has laid 
> claim to it in their copyright battle - it could well be considered Public 
> Domain.
> 
> Just a thought, and don't take my word for it.

-- 
Things could always be worse; for instance, you could be ugly and work in the 
Post Office. -- Adrienne E. Gusoff



