From m at mbsks.franken.de  Wed May  6 05:34:17 1998
From: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:34:17 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <m0yWnTm-000HqNC@mbsks.franken.de>

Mahlzeit


My hardware:
  Mentec M70 with 512kB RAM (that must be enough) which can boot
    from DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT and has 4 serial ports.
  MSCP/DU-Controller which can boot from DM, DP, DL, DR, MS,
    MT, MU, SY, DU.
  It is connected to a 1.2MB-5.25"-FDD and a MFM-HDD of unknown
    size wich I will get tomorrow. (I have now the dox for my
    controller.)

Kernel:
  To use these 4 serial ports, do I have to set "NKL 4" or are
    these not KL11/DL11s? One of these is the normal console
    unter RT-11.
  Is "NBUF 32" OK for 512kB RAM?
  Should I set UCB_CLIST NO or YES?

Installation:
  I think there are three possible ways of installing it:

  1) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the whole disk with
     rtkerm.
     The disk will be bigger than 32MB, so this does not work?

  2) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the root-fs and the
     swap-partition then boot BSD and transfer somehow the
     usr-data (kermit? write simple program?).
     This sould also install the disklabel.

  3) Boot from a BSD-Floppy, disklabel, mkfs, transfer data
     (kermit? write simple program?).

  The kernel and diskimages will allways be made on an emulator.

  What do you think is the best/easiest way? Or have you a better
  idea? (Make a tape and use the TU58-emulator?)


Thanks

endergone Zwiebeltuete

-- 
insanity inside

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From m at mbsks.franken.de  Wed May  6 16:24:49 1998
From: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:24:49 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
Message-ID: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC@mbsks.franken.de>

Mahlzeit


I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.

When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
at the end:

./checksys unix
overlay 6 is empty and there are non-empty overlays following it.
System will occupy 156960 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists).

               end {0052310}          nbuf {0012014}           buf {0033654}
             nproc {0012002}          proc {0042454}         ntext {0012004}
              text {0051350}         nfile {0012010}          file {0047370}
            ninode {0012006}         inode {0012076}      ncallout {0012012}
           callout {0024562}     ucb_clist {0012020}        nclist {0012016}
          ram_size {0000000}       xitdesc {0012074}      quotdesc {0000000}
         namecache {0025242}       _iosize {0010030}
**** SYSTEM IS NOT BOOTABLE. ****
*** Exit 1

then I get very often Bus Errors:

# ./config SONJA
./config: 1041 Bus error - core dumped
Copying standard files to ../SONJA.
./config: 1051 Bus error - core dumped
./config: 1052 Bus error - core dumped
./config: ../SONJA/ioconf.c: cannot create
./config: ../SONJA/param.c: cannot create
Setting configuration options for SONJA.
c./config: ../SONJA/loop.h: cannot create
^C# ^C
# mkdir
Bus error - core dumped
# mkdir X
Bus error - core dumped
#

I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
optimization.

Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?


Mahlzeit

endergone Zwiebeltuete

[1] The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
    filesystem.

-- 
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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed May  6 16:38:21 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
In-Reply-To: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC@mbsks.franken.de> from Matthias Bruestle at "May 6, 98 08:24:49 am"
Message-ID: <199805060638.QAA02895@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Matthias Bruestle:
> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.

	[that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license]

> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
> [problems]
> 
> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator
> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
>
> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
> filesystem.

Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed
the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here
are some general purpose suggestions from me.

	+ Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption,
	  or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis?

	+ Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot?

	+ The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11
	  emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and
	  installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs.

Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able
to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11
built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work.

I'm off for a short break, but I'll be back Monday. Best of luck with it.

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Wed May  6 17:07:10 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:10 +0930
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:38:21PM +1000
References: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC@mbsks.franken.de> <199805060638.QAA02895@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980506163710.A329@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 16:38:21 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Matthias Bruestle:
>> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.
>
> 	[that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license]
>
>> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
>> [problems]
>>
>> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
>> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator
>> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
>>
>> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
>> filesystem.
>
> Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed
> the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here
> are some general purpose suggestions from me.
>
>> Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption,
> 	  or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis?
>
>> Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot?
>
>> The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11
> 	  emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and
> 	  installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs.
>
> Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able
> to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11
> built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work.

Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to
answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am.

One point:

> Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
> the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?

First, the compiler is certainly not gcc.  That would never fit in the
address space of a PDP-11.  Secondly, I'd guess it's the emulator.  I
don't think many people have tried 2.11BSD on the Supnik emulator.

I'm using the Begemot emulator (Emulators/P11-2.3 in the archive).  I
get:

[5] root--> cd /usr/src/sys/GRANDPA/
[6] root--> ./checksys unix
System will occupy 295600 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists).

               end {0122636}          nbuf {0013562}           buf {0053542}
             nproc {0013550}          proc {0077060}         ntext {0013552}
              text {0121416}         nfile {0013556}          file {0115726}
            ninode {0013554}         inode {0013646}      ncallout {0013560}
           callout {0044274}     ucb_clist {0013566}        nclist {0013564}
          ram_size {0000000}       xitdesc {0013644}      quotdesc {0000000}
         namecache {0053150}       _iosize {0000000}
[7] root--> 

I won't pretend that the documentation of the interpreter is ideal,
nor that it's easy to set up.  It took me quite a while.  Take a look
at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups.  They are:

-rw-r--r--  1 root  lemis  11477 May  6 16:18 README-emu
-rw-r--r--  1 root  lemis   1746 May  6 16:18 p11conf
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root  lemis    315 May  6 16:19 run_211

README-emu is a brief (and hurried) description of what I did to get
the emulator working, p11conf is my current configuration, and run_211
is the command file I run to actually start the emulator.  Note that
what you get when you run the emulator is just the diagnostic console;
to actually use the machine, you need to telnet to ports 10000 to
10003.  Anybody interested in so doing can telnet to pdp11.lemis.com
and log in as guest, password "Today only".  Don't break anything,
please--I haven't checked security too much.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Thu May  7 01:01:21 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
Message-ID: <199805061501.QAA08913@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>

In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
versions of these at:

	http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr

--tim

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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Thu May  7 02:12:37 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Early unix on simulators --- partial newbie success ---yeah!
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm"
Message-ID: <199805061612.MAA00456@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

I managed to get the Sim23b pdp11 emulator running on the v5 unix.
It is hard to believe a 25K kernel....(:+}}..... so much for code
bloat over the years.

My goal is to try to bring it up on a KSR35 hooked up to a headless
pc (386 board in a closet box) on the dos emulator, or whatever would
be the minimal required to get it going.

Can anyone suggest ways to reach that goal?  I am still having no
luck with the Ersatz 2.0 emulator on dos, because I can't seem to
get the incantations right.  I get to the @ prompt, but after
entering unix, it just sits for a bit, the HD spins, and after a
few seconds it is back at the @ prompt.  There is still some magick
mystical juju required (albeit I am the dummy here....(:+\\.....)

I could port a stripped Linux 0.98 kernel maybe, to get it up,
and try that, but I was hoping the dos emulator would run with it.

Any suggestions and pointers are appreciated.

Thanks, and kudos to all the PUPS crew and Dennis Ritchie for
resurrecting the old v5 image.  This kindof makes computing
fun, for a change.....

Now, where did I stash that KSR35.....

Bob Keys.....


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From m at mbsks.franken.de  Thu May  7 02:39:05 1998
From: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 18:39:05 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
In-Reply-To: <19980506163710.A329@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 6, 98 04:37:10 pm"
Message-ID: <m0yX7Dl-000HqdC@mbsks.franken.de>

Mahlzeit


According to Greg Lehey:
> Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to
> answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am.
Thanks. :)

> > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
> > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
> First, the compiler is certainly not gcc.  That would never fit in the
The compiler which compiled the emulator is gcc. Log time ago I compiled
someones emulator with gcc 2.5.8 and it did only work without any
optimization.

> nor that it's easy to set up.  It took me quite a while.  Take a look
> at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups.  They are:
Fine, I will try it this night or tomorrow.


Thanks

endergone Zwiebeltuete

-- 
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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu May  7 06:43:56 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 6, 98 04:38:21 pm"
Message-ID: <199805062043.GAA03625@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Matthias,
	Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working
with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email.

	Warren


    	  Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator

Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code
for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu
directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o.

With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here:

total 16
-rw-------  1 root  wheel  1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help
-rw-------  1 root  wheel   648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf
-rw-------  1 root  wheel  4096 Dec 12  1994 qna.rom
-rw-------  1 root  wheel   512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot

All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf
configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made
a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is:


libdir = .
ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
end
ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
	0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12
end
ctrl kl
	017777560  060  064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net  -7 -t 10002
	017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net  -7 -t 10003
end
ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
end
ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
end
ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
end

Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root.
The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does.

Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory,
do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require
any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few
times. You will see:

% telnet localhost 10002
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.
-----
					<---- Hit Return once or twice here
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700

2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
    root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON

attaching lo0

phys mem  = 2097152
avail mem = 1668352
user mem  = 307200

January  8 08:25:02 init: configure system

lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached
cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped:  No CSR.
cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped:  No CSR.
cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped:  No CSR.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
# 

That's it!!

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu May  7 06:49:24 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm"
Message-ID: <199805062049.GAA03699@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Tim Bradshaw:
> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> versions of these at:
> 
> 	http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
> 
> --tim

Thanks Tim!

	Warren

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From m at mbsks.franken.de  Thu May  7 07:45:58 1998
From: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:45:58 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 7, 98 06:43:56 am"
Message-ID: <m0yXC0k-000HqiC@mbsks.franken.de>

Mahlzeit


The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll
look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD
mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD?


Mahlzeit

endergone Zwiebeltuete

-- 
insanity inside

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu May  7 09:04:16 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>; from Tim Bradshaw on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:01:21PM +0100
References: <199805061501.QAA08913@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <19980507083416.B396@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> versions of these at:
>
> 	http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr

Somebody else posted this a few days ago.  Does anybody know how to
view them?  They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
page.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu May  7 10:08:49 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:49 +0930
Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 06:43:56AM +1000
References: <199805060638.QAA02895@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199805062043.GAA03625@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980507093849.H396@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  6:43:56 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Matthias,
> 	Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working
> with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email.

Hey, I thought you were in freezing Tasmania :-)

>     	  Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator
>
> Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code
> for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu
> directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o.
>
> With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here:
>
> total 16
> -rw-------  1 root  wheel  1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help
> -rw-------  1 root  wheel   648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf
> -rw-------  1 root  wheel  4096 Dec 12  1994 qna.rom
> -rw-------  1 root  wheel   512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot
>
> All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf
> configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made
> a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is:
>
>
> libdir = .
> ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
> end
> ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
> 	0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12
> end
> ctrl kl
> 	017777560  060  064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net  -7 -t 10002
> 	017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net  -7 -t 10003
> end
> ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
> end
> ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
> end
> ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
> end
>
> Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root.
> The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does.
>
> Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory,
> do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require
> any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few
> times. You will see:

In fact, you can use any port from 10000 to 10003.  They map to
/dev/console and /dev/ttyl1 through /dev/ttyl3 (though for some reason
/etc/ttys doesn't contain entries for the latter two).

>> telnet localhost 10002
> Trying 127.0.0.1...
> Connected to localhost.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> -----
> 					<---- Hit Return once or twice here
> : xp(0,0,0)unix
> Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
>
> 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
>     root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
>
> attaching lo0
>
> phys mem  = 2097152
> avail mem = 1668352
> user mem  = 307200
>
> January  8 08:25:02 init: configure system
>
> lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
> rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
> tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
> xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
> cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached
> cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped:  No CSR.
> cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped:  No CSR.
> cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped:  No CSR.
> erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
> #
>
> That's it!!

Well, no, at this point you're in single-user mode.  To continue,
enter ^D:

# Fast boot ... skipping disk checks
checking quotas: done.
Assuming NETWORKING system ...
add host 192.109.197.211: gateway 127.1
add net default: gateway freebie.lemis.com
starting system logger
preserving editor files
clearing /tmp
standard daemons: update cron accounting.
starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer.
starting local daemons:.
Wed May  6 10:45:41 CST 1998
May  6 10:45:42 pdp11 init: kernel security level changed from 0 to 1


2.11 BSD UNIX (pdp11.lemis.com) (console)

login: 

I've forgotten what the standard password on root is; I fear it has
*not* been removed.  It could be 'begemot' or 'begemot1'.  To change
it, you will need to rebuild passwd, which will not work otherwise.
Do that in /usr/src/bin/passwd.  If you have trouble, I can send you a
passwd binary.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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From grog at lemis.com  Thu May  7 10:16:40 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:40 +0930
Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
In-Reply-To: <m0yXC0k-000HqiC@mbsks.franken.de>; from Matthias Bruestle on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:45:58PM +0200
References: <199805062043.GAA03625@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <m0yXC0k-000HqiC@mbsks.franken.de>
Message-ID: <19980507094640.I396@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 23:45:58 +0200, Matthias Bruestle wrote:
> Mahlzeit

Mahlzeit (*rülps*)

> The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll
> look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD
> mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD?

Yes, I think so.  The access to the machine goes via the tunnel
driver, and that would need to be completed for Linux.  The authors
don't use Linux, so they haven't done the work.  They don't use BSD/OS
much any more, so if you are going to install one, FreeBSD is the
obvious choice, especially considering the price differential.

Of course, any old UNIX user should be using BSD anyway, especially if
you want to emulate older BSDs :-)

Greg
--
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From edgee at cyberpass.net  Thu May  7 10:45:41 1998
From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:41 -0400
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Message-ID: <199805070045.UAA04653@renoir.op.net>

Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.

As you know, my first approach was to simple-mindedly examine every
word of a given program's disk image to come up with an estimate of
the number of floating point operations used by the program.

I would like to thank those who pointed out the shortcoming of this
approach and offered valuable advice on how to achieve my aim of
accurate counts.  Based on these comments, I decided to create a 
full fledged disassembler for the PDP-11.

I have tested my program and believe it produces an exact count of
all floating point operations.

In case you're interested in how my initial estimates compare with 
the new, precise counts, I list those data below as well.  

New Approach.
uv7 bin directory
Programs using 10 or more floating point ops.

graph 674
awk 657
spline 389
sa 300
prof 260
iostat 243
t450 222
t300 222
t300s 212
vplot 187
tek 185
adb 128
units 118
random 116
xsend 106
xget 106
tsort 106
tar 106
refer 106
quot 106
nroff 88
factor 88
ac 88
primes 78
poke6 62
lex 51
roff 32
as 18

Old Approach.
uv7 bin directory
Programs using 100 or more floating point ops.

awk 2540
refer 1644
xsend 1326
tbl 1315
graph 1300
xget 1288
adb 1152
eqn 918
enroll 915
neqn 874
nroff 841
make 822
spline 812
yacc 789
sa 714
tar 706
lex 628
tek 618
prof 608
t300s 604
dc 601
vplot 582
iostat 579
t300 576
t450 574
em 530
bc 509
ratfor 474
quot 452
tsort 407
sh 381
expr 380
units 379
ac 365
sort 358
ps 327
restor 323
rmail 321
ed 321
mail 321
ptx 320
egrep 313
ls 310
ps.old 306
m4 304
random 298
su 296
tp 285
ops 282
cu 282
diff 277
pr 275
poke6 275
sed 267
find 267
dump 261
deroff 255
icheck 251
ls.11 249
ld 246
login 240
cptree 230
passwd 227
login.old 218
cc 210
prep 205
at 203
dumpdir 197
join 196
wc 193
tc 192
nm 191
pstat 190
file 187
pr.old 186
crypt 182
date 181
grep 180
ranlib 174
fgrep 172
ncheck 159
checkeq 157
du 155
who 152
as 152
od 151
look 149
roff 149
ar 146
vpr 144
dd 141
tk 141
time 139
rm 138
cb 134
mv 134
comm 133
newgrp 133
dcheck 132
factor 132
rmdir 125
write 125
primes 124
cmp 121
dfOLD 120
df 120
size 117
v6sh 116
vcopy 113
nice 113
col 110
ln 106
sum 105
clri 104
cat 103
tail 103
sleep 101

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu May  7 11:37:24 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <199805070045.UAA04653@renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400
References: <199805070045.UAA04653@renoir.op.net>
Message-ID: <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.

I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk  Thu May  7 18:55:29 1998
From: afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (Alan Bain)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>

On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:

> On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
> 
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
> 
According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on
a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling
say numeric code.  There's a short section on how to do a build if you
don't have fp (like me on my 11/34).   I think the V7 manual may well be
on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful,

Alan Bain



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From grog at lemis.com  Thu May  7 19:23:06 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:06 +0930
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>; from Alan Bain on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:55:29AM +0100
References: <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com> <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <19980507185306.I12200@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  9:55:29 +0100, Alan Bain wrote:
> On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>> On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
>>> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
>>> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
>>> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
>>> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
>>
>> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>>
> According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on
> a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling
> say numeric code.  There's a short section on how to do a build if you
> don't have fp (like me on my 11/34).   I think the V7 manual may well be
> on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful,

The Seventh Edition manuals are available in a number of places,
including of course the PUPS archive, but dmr has also put them on the
web at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/index.html.

Greg
--
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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Thu May  7 23:05:02 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <19980507083416.B396@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 7, 98 08:34:16 am"
Message-ID: <199805071305.JAA02117@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> > versions of these at:
> >
> > 	http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
> 
> Somebody else posted this a few days ago.  Does anybody know how to
> view them?  They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
> page.
> 
> Greg

He put up postscript versions, too.

I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
an I will probably wind up doing that.  Then we will have a working
set of sources for clean copy.

Bob Keys


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From grog at lemis.com  Fri May  8 09:02:36 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805071305.JAA02117@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from Robert D. Keys on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:05:02AM -0400
References: <19980507083416.B396@freebie.lemis.com> <199805071305.JAA02117@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <19980508083236.N12200@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>> On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
>>> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
>>> versions of these at:
>>>
>>> 	http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
>>
>> Somebody else posted this a few days ago.  Does anybody know how to
>> view them?  They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
>> page.
>>
>> Greg
>
> He put up postscript versions, too.

I don't see them at
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html.  Where are they?

> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> an I will probably wind up doing that.  Then we will have a working
> set of sources for clean copy.

Great idea.  Keep us posted.

Greg
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From edgee at cyberpass.net  Fri May  8 14:14:03 1998
From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:03 -0400
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199805070045.UAA04653@renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400
Message-ID: <199805080414.AAA28438@renoir.op.net>

> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.

Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see 
whether my results hold up.  They do.

According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations.  Here
are the first few.  The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as
well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete 
disassembled code for tar, let me know.

[root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
read 16128 bytes
prog string is 16128 bytes
0:  SETD   ;170011 
20532:  STCFD F0,(R1)   ;176011 
20562:  STF F0,(R1)   ;174011 
22406:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22410:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22460:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22462:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22620:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22622:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
24124:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
24130:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
26616:  LDF F0,#56200   ;172427 056200 

I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and
because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged
by the number of floating point ops contained in tar).

The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating 
point:

~_filbuf
~_innum
~atof
~cvt
~ecvt
~fcvt
~gcvt
~isatty
~main
~mktemp

The addresses of these routines, as listed in tar's symbol 
table--see attached file symlisttar.txt--correspond to those of the 
disassembled floating point ops in tar. 

I've learned a lot while responding to the criticisms offered by you 
and others on this list.  Thank you.

Ed

-------------- next part --------------
[root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
read 16128 bytes
prog string is 16128 bytes
0:  SETD   ;170011 
20532:  STCFD F0,(R1)   ;176011 
20562:  STF F0,(R1)   ;174011 
22406:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22410:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22460:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22462:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22620:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22622:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
24124:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
24130:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
26616:  LDF F0,#56200   ;172427 056200 
26622:  STF F0,177732(R5)   ;174065 177732 
26676:  CLRF 177762(R5)   ;170465 177762 
26710:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
26714:  CMPF F0,177732(R5)   ;173465 177732 
26720:  CFCC   ;170000 
26724:  LDF F0,#41040   ;172427 041040 
26730:  MULF F0,177762(R5)   ;171065 177762 
26742:  LDCIF F1,R1   ;177101 
26744:  ADDF F0,F1   ;172001 
26746:  STF F0,177762(R5)   ;174065 177762 
27006:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
27012:  CMPF F0,177732(R5)   ;173465 177732 
27016:  CFCC   ;170000 
27022:  LDF F0,#41040   ;172427 041040 
27026:  MULF F0,177762(R5)   ;171065 177762 
27040:  LDCIF F1,R1   ;177101 
27042:  ADDF F0,F1   ;172001 
27044:  STF F0,177762(R5)   ;174065 177762 
27304:  CLRF 177762(R5)   ;170465 177762 
27314:  LDF F0,#40200   ;172427 040200 
27320:  STF F0,177752(R5)   ;174065 177752 
27324:  LDF F0,#40640   ;172427 040640 
27330:  STF F0,177742(R5)   ;174065 177742 
27344:  LDF F0,177742(R5)   ;172465 177742 
27350:  MULF F0,F0   ;171000 
27352:  STF F0,177742(R5)   ;174065 177742 
27366:  LDF F0,177752(R5)   ;172465 177752 
27372:  MULF F0,177742(R5)   ;171065 177742 
27376:  STF F0,177752(R5)   ;174065 177752 
27422:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
27426:  DIVF F0,177752(R5)   ;174465 177752 
27434:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
27440:  MULF F0,177752(R5)   ;171065 177752 
27444:  STF F0,177762(R5)   ;174065 177762 
27462:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
27466:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
27500:  STF F0,177762(R5)   ;174065 177762 
27512:  NEGF F0   ;170700 
27514:  STF F0,177762(R5)   ;174065 177762 
27520:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
32720:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
32724:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
32764:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
32770:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
33060:  CLRF F0   ;170400 
33062:  CMPF F0,4(R5)   ;173465 000004 
33066:  CFCC   ;170000 
33100:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33104:  NEGF F0   ;170700 
33106:  STF F0,4(R5)   ;174065 000004 
33120:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33124:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
33136:  STF F0,4(R5)   ;174065 000004 
33146:  CLRF F0   ;170400 
33150:  CMPF F0,177762(R5)   ;173465 177762 
33154:  CFCC   ;170000 
33160:  CLRF F0   ;170400 
33162:  CMPF F0,4(R5)   ;173465 000004 
33166:  CFCC   ;170000 
33202:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
33206:  DIVF F0,#41040   ;174427 041040 
33212:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
33224:  STF F0,177752(R5)   ;174065 177752 
33230:  ADDF F0,43662   ;172067 010426 
33234:  MULF F0,#41040   ;171027 041040 
33240:  STCFI F0,R0   ;175400 
33252:  CLRF F0   ;170400 
33254:  CMPF F0,177762(R5)   ;173465 177762 
33260:  CFCC   ;170000 
33276:  LDF F0,177752(R5)   ;172465 177752 
33302:  STF F0,4(R5)   ;174065 000004 
33310:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33314:  MULF F0,#41040   ;171027 041040 
33320:  STF F0,177752(R5)   ;174065 177752 
33324:  CMPF F0,#40200   ;173427 040200 
33330:  CFCC   ;170000 
33414:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33420:  MULF F0,#41040   ;171027 041040 
33424:  STF F0,4(R5)   ;174065 000004 
33436:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33442:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
33454:  STF F0,4(R5)   ;174065 000004 
33460:  LDF F0,177752(R5)   ;172465 177752 
33464:  STCFI F0,R0   ;175400 
33666:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33672:  STEXP F0,R0   ;175000 
33700:  LDEXP F0,R0   ;176400 
33702:  CFCC   ;170000 
33710:  LDF F0,43672   ;172467 007756 
33716:  LDF F0,43672   ;172467 007750 
33722:  NEGF F0   ;170700 
34112:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
34116:  MODF F0,#40200   ;171427 040200 
34122:  STF F1, at 14(R5)   ;174175 000014 
[root at oskar uv7]# 
-------------- next part --------------
~main~usage~dorep~endtape=003004
~getdir~passtap=003414
~putfile=003566
~doxtrac=005656
~dotable=006776
~putempt=007126
~longt~pmode~select~checkdi=007506
~onintr~onquit~onhup~onterm~tomodes=010132
~checksu=010344
~checkw~respons=010560
~checkup=010750
~done~prefix~getwdir=011302
~lookup~bsrch~cmp~readtap=012704
~writeta=013350
~backtap=013644
~flushta=014044
~copy~freopen=014146
~fseek~rewind~fread~fwrite~system~fopen~scanf~fscanf~sscanf~_doscan=016056
~_innum~_instr~_getccl=021242
~fprintf=021376
~printf~sprintf=021532
~ungetc~_filbuf=022002
~gcvt~_strout=024570
~_flsbuf=025130
~fflush~_cleanu=025702
~fclose~_endope=026072
~create~_findio=026516
~atof~atoi~ctime~localti=027716
~sunday~gmtime~asctime=031220
~dysize~ct_numb=031560
~malloc~free~realloc=032422
~ecvt~fcvt~cvt~isatty~mktemp~stty~gtty~strcat~strcmp~strcpy

From grog at lemis.com  Fri May  8 20:16:15 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:15 +0930
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438@renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400
References: <199805070045.UAA04653@renoir.op.net>; <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com> <199805080414.AAA28438@renoir.op.net>
Message-ID: <19980508194615.O12200@freebie.lemis.com>

On Fri,  8 May 1998 at  0:14:03 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
Content-Description: Mail message body
>> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>
> Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see
> whether my results hold up.  They do.
>
> According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations.  Here
> are the first few.  The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as
> well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete
> disassembled code for tar, let me know.
>
> [root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
> file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
> read 16128 bytes
> prog string is 16128 bytes
> 0:  SETD   ;170011
> 20532:  STCFD F0,(R1)   ;176011
> 20562:  STF F0,(R1)   ;174011
> 22406:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424
> 22410:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046
> 22460:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424
> 22462:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046
> 22620:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424
> 22622:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046
> 24124:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004
> 24130:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046
> 26616:  LDF F0,#56200   ;172427 056200
>
> I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and
> because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged
> by the number of floating point ops contained in tar).

I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not
floating point.  At the very best, it would indicate the use of the
floating point registers for straightforward data moves.  I stand by
my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the
Seventh Edition nor elsewhere.

For the fun of it, I took the source of tar from the Seventh Edition
(/usr/src/cmd/tar/tar.c) and compiled it on 2.11BSD.  I had some minor
compilation problems due to different directory structures, which I
solved by #ifdefing out the following code:

#if 0
                        for (j=0; j < DIRSIZ; j++)
                                *cp2++ = dbuf.d_name[j];
                        *cp2 = '\0';
                        close(infile);
                        putfile(buf, cp);
                        infile = open(".", 0);
                        i++;
                        lseek(infile, (long) (sizeof(dbuf) * i), 0);
#endif

I think we can agree that they don't contain FP code.  Here are some
results:

[23] root--> cc -n -s -O tar.c -S
[24] root--> grep -i ldf tar.s
[25] root--> grep -i mul tar.s


> The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating
> point:
>
>> _filbuf
>> _innum
>> atof
>> cvt
>> ecvt
>> fcvt
>> gcvt
>> isatty
>> main
>> mktemp

atof, cvt, ecvt, fcvt and gcvt are conversion routines which use
floating point, so I can agree that they would contain FP code which,
however, would not be used.  isatty is a library routine which is
simple enough to quote:

/*
 * Returns 1 iff file is a tty
 */

#include <sgtty.h>

isatty(f)
{
        struct sgttyb ttyb;

        if (gtty(f, &ttyb) < 0)
                return(0);
        return(1);
}

Evidently there's no FP code there.

It's fun to go looking for things like this.  But never trust
anything, especially not your own judgement, until you have a couple
of different ways to prove it.  You have the sources there; go ahead
and check them out.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Fri May  8 23:28:40 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <19980508083236.N12200@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 8, 98 08:32:36 am"
Message-ID: <199805081328.JAA03767@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> > an I will probably wind up doing that.  Then we will have a working
> > set of sources for clean copy.
> 
> Great idea.  Keep us posted.
> 
> Greg

I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them.  I will
port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version.  Alas, my
html is not so good.

Bob


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From afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk  Sat May  9 00:08:38 1998
From: afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (Alan Bain)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980508150740.5409B-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>

On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote:

> > On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> > > an I will probably wind up doing that.  Then we will have a working
> > > set of sources for clean copy.
> > 
> > Great idea.  Keep us posted.
> > 
> > Greg
> 
> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them.  I will
> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version.  Alas, my
> html is not so good.
> 
It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I
could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff
source first of course!)

Alan Bain


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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Sat May  9 00:35:45 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <19980508083236.N12200@freebie.lemis.com>
	<199805081328.JAA03767@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <199805081435.PAA20682@aiai.ed.ac.uk>

* Robert D Keys wrote:

> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them.  I will
> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version.  Alas, my
> html is not so good.

I could probably manufacture HTML from roff reasonably rapidly,
assuming the originals are vaguely clean.  I used to do this for a
living at one piunt (:).

--tim

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From Jason.Stevens at aexp.com  Sat May  9 03:25:16 1998
From: Jason.Stevens at aexp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Message-ID:   <0D35C35533FFC066*/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/o=trs/ou=HUB1/ou=AMEX/s=Stevens/g=Jason/@MHS>

Could it be possible that all the floating point calls are part of the crt.0 
initialization libs?!  They may be in there as part of a initialization 
routeen to detect a fp, and use it if it's there, although I really doubt tar 
would really need an fp call at all.. It sounds like some kind of generic 
startup thing..  Unfortunatly I don't have any source to anything at the 
moment... If anyone wants to dive check the startup libs...  Oh well until 
then, I'm just waiting for SCO to send me my no.. :)


TTYL!

Jason

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From merlyn at Geeks.ORG  Sun May 10 01:14:19 1998
From: merlyn at Geeks.ORG (Doug McIntyre)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:14:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980508150740.5409B-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk> from Alan Bain at "May 8, 98 03:08:38 pm"
Message-ID: <19980509151419.3780A0D9A@jacobs.Geeks.ORG>

> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>> On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>>> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
>>>> an I will probably wind up doing that.  Then we will have a working
>>>> set of sources for clean copy.
>>> 
>>> Great idea.  Keep us posted.
>>> 
>>> Greg
>> 
>> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
>> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them.  I will
>> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
>> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version.  Alas, my
>> html is not so good.
>> 
> It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I
> could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff
> source first of course!)

Or use programs written already to do that, like RosettaMan (at least
I still call it that, the author changed its name). Here's a blurb
from its announcement.

:: PolyglotMan (nee RosettaMan) is a filter for UNIX manual pages.  It
:: takes as input man pages for a variety of UNIX flavors and produces as
:: output a variety of file formats.  Currently PolyglotMan accepts man
:: pages from the following flavors of UNIX: Hewlett-Packard HP-UX, AT&T
:: System V, SunOS, Sun Solaris, OSF/1, DEC Ultrix, SGI IRIX, Linux, SCO,
:: FreeBSD; and produces output for the following formats: printable
:: ASCII only (stripping page headers and footers), section and
:: subsection headers only, TkMan, [tn]roff, RTF, SGML (soon--I finally
:: found a DTD), HTML, MIME, LaTeX, LaTeX 2e, Perl 5's pod.  Previously
:: <I>PolyglotMan</I> required pages to be formatted by nroff prior to
:: its processing; with version 3.0, it prefers [tn]roff source and
:: usually can produce results that are better yet.
:: 
:: PolyglotMan improves upon other man page filters in several ways: (1) its
:: analysis recognizes the structural pieces of man pages, enabling high
:: quality output, (2) its modular structure permits easy augmentation of
:: output formats, (3) it accepts man pages formatted with the variant
:: macros of many different flavors of UNIX, and (4) it doesn't require
:: modification of or cooperation with any other program.

:: The home location for PolyglotMan is ftp.cs.berkeley.edu:
:: /ucb/people/phelps/tcltk/rman.tar.Z (this is a softlink to the latest,
:: numbered version).  If you discover a bug and you obtained PolyglotMan
:: at some other site, first grab it from this one to see if the problem
:: has been fixed.

This is only for man pages, but probably could take the papers in ms
format and give a rough translation, or hack up polyglotman some to do
ms as well..


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From edgee at cyberpass.net  Sun May 10 02:04:55 1998
From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:04:55 -0400
Subject: Visible Front End-advice?
Message-ID: <199805091604.MAA00978@renoir.op.net>

I'd like to write a visible front end for Bob's emulator, but I'm not 
sure how to go about doing it.   What I'd like is another window that 
shows the state of the emulator--PC, SP, MMR etc.--in real time.

Any suggestions/ideas?

TIA

Ed




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From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Sun May 10 06:43:26 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:43:26 GMT
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
Message-ID: <9805092143.ZM1440@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>

I'm looking for some advice...

For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition
system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it.  This disk
has to have the swap space, as well.  The machine it will be used on has
256K bytes RAM.

How many blocks should I leave for swap?  Or, to put it another way, what
magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the
number of blocks and number of inodes?

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

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From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Sun May 10 06:46:36 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:46:36 GMT
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
In-Reply-To: "Pete Turnbull" <pete@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
        "mkfs on an RL02" (May  9, 21:43)
References: <9805092143.ZM1440@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9805092146.ZM1447@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>

On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02...

and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers
were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer
exists?"

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

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From bdc at world.std.com  Sun May 10 18:17:06 1998
From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:17:06 -0700 (PST)
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438@renoir.op.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980510011221.27113A-100000@world.std.com>


On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ed G. wrote:

> > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
> 
> Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see 
> whether my results hold up.  They do.

Is it possible that you're mistakenly disassembling embedded data as if it
were code?  And perhaps that those data items contain arrangements of byte
values which translate to FP instructions?

-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sun May 10 18:26:23 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST)
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
In-Reply-To: <9805092143.ZM1440@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:43:26 pm"
Message-ID: <199805100826.SAA02363@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Pete Turnbull:
> I'm looking for some advice...
> 
> For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition
> system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it.  This disk
> has to have the swap space, as well.  The machine it will be used on has
> 256K bytes RAM.
> 
> How many blocks should I leave for swap?  Or, to put it another way, what
> magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the
> number of blocks and number of inodes?

The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate
the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve.

Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the
parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7:

rl
tm
root rl 0
swap rl 0
swplo 18000
nswap 2480

In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks.
The mkfs manual says:

       If  the  prototype file cannot be opened and its name con-
       sists of a string of digits, mkfs  builds  a  file  system
       with a single empty directory on it.  The size of the file
       system is the value of proto interpreted as a decimal num-
       ber.  The number of i-nodes is calculated as a function of
       the filsystem size.  The boot program is  left  uninitial-
       ized.

Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to
set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so.

Hope this helps,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sun May 10 18:27:43 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST)
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
In-Reply-To: <9805092146.ZM1447@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:46:36 pm"
Message-ID: <199805100827.SAA02382@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Pete Turnbull:
> On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02...
> 
> and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers
> were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer
> exists?"

You'd have to disassemble the kernel. Alternatively, consult the
size of the free block list on the disk's image.

	Warren

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From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Sun May 10 20:02:46 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:02:46 GMT
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
In-Reply-To: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
        "Re: mkfs on an RL02" (May 10, 18:26)
References: <199805100826.SAA02363@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <9805101102.ZM7636@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>

Hi, Warren.

On May 10, 18:26, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th
> > Edition system disk on an RL02...

> > How many blocks should I leave for swap?  Or, to put it another way,
> > what magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file
> > for the number of blocks and number of inodes?
>
> The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate
> the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve.

I should have thought of that!  Steven told me the same thing last night.

> Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the
> parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7:
>
> rl
> tm
> root rl 0
> swap rl 0
> swplo 18000
> nswap 2480

That looks the same as mine.

> In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks.

I had a look in the superblock on a couple of bootable RL02s, and found
18,000.

> Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to
> set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so.

I knew about using digits for the blocks instead of a proto file, but I
thought it might be safer to specify the number for the inodes.  I tried to
figure it out from the results of icheck but I'm much happier with your
suggestion.

I'll let you know how I get on.  The reason to do this today is two-fold:

    One of my packs is getting flaky, so I want to make a good copy, with
    a clean install (most of mine have lots of localised junk), and

    our department has an Open Day on Wednesday, and I've been coerced
    into running a display of old machines.  The 11T23 is the easiest PDP
    for me to move there.

Thanks for the help!

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sun May 10 21:48:23 1998
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:23 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980510134657.29637B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:

> On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
> 
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.

I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe
that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few
FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
appearant.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon May 11 02:49:44 1998
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Message-ID: <199805101649.JAA00593@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe
> that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few
> FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
> appearant.

	It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP.  The long
	divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7 yet)
	because it is much much less code to convert the operands to FP, do
	the divide, and then convert the result back (the alternative is
	about two pages of code).  Different CPUs handle a fault during a
	double word push to the stack differently, this was a real difficult
	problem to track down and fix.  If during the FP instruction 
	"movfi   fr0,-(sp)" the stackpointer becomes invalid some PDP-11 CPUs
	handle the fault differently.  See 2.11BSD update #150 for the details.

	The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were
	explicitly FP (float or double).  Most C code was 'int' or 'char *'
	and no FP code was needed or used for that.

	FP instructions would be clustered together where the libc.a routines
	were loaded.  The 'ldiv' and 'lrem' routines would have several FP
	instructions close to each other but the rest of the program would
	have very few.  A program such as 'adb' would have a few FP instructions
	in the routines that display the FP registers.  Oh - there's a bug 
	dating back to V7 in adb.  The FP registers for a traced/running 
	process do not display correctly (using adb on a core file works fine).
	Fixed in 2.11 (see update #405) ;-)

	Steven Schultz


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From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Mon May 11 06:47:11 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:47:11 GMT
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
        "Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!" (May 10,  9:49)
References: <199805101649.JAA00593@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <9805102147.ZM8056@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>

On May 10,  9:49, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I
believe
> > that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a
few
> > FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
> > appearant.
>
> 	It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP.  The long
> 	divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7
> 	yet) because it is much much less code to convert the operands to
> 	FP, do the divide, and then convert the result back (the
alternative
> 	is about two pages of code).

> 	The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were
> 	explicitly FP (float or double).  Most C code was 'int' or 'char *'
> 	and no FP code was needed or used for that.

That bears out what I disovered by accident yesterday -- looking at a 7th
Edition UK source distribution for 11/23's and other small machines.  The
READ_ME file lists the programs that have possible floating point problems,
or which might be too big using emulation.   I can't remember the details,
but the list had a few surprises.

Most of the C programs have very little FP, and that is mostly due to a
small number of library routines that include FP ops, but one or two
programs are exceptional.

For example, 'factor' has a lot of FP at the beginning, a chunk in the
middle, and a large subroutine near the end, which uses FP to compute
square roots using Newton's method.  factor is written in assembler, not C,
and has much more FP than other things I looked at, but several other
programs use a little.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon May 11 08:58:57 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST)
Subject: PUPS Mail List welcome + news
Message-ID: <199805102258.IAA02806@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

We've had a regular intake of new subscribers to the PUPS mailing list, so
I thought I'd say Welcome to all the newcomers. There are now 90 people on
the list, and the quantity of messages is increasing daily.

The mailing list is also available in a digest form, which is distributed
twice a week. If you would rather be on the digest list, send mail to
majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the lines in the body of the mail:

	unsubscribe pups
	subscribe pups-digest

For more information about old UNIX, see the PUPS web pages at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS, and the FAQ in particular.

The most recent news is that both Bob Supnik and the Begemot team have
released new versions of their PDP-11 emulators. A further bug in Bob's
emulator was found by Steven Schultz, so we might see a patch to the
emulator coming out soon.

The PUPS volunteers have been hard at work burning and mailing out the
first batch of CDs containing the PUPS Archive, which is now about 520Megs
in size. We also have about 30 people with authorised access into the
on-line PUPS Archive.

Dion at SCO has promised another batch of new UNIX licenses, which I
should receive in the next few days. When I do, I'll post the details here.

That's all for now. Ciao,

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon May 11 09:41:19 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST)
Subject: PUPS Mail List welcome + news
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980510164539.6267A-100000@corinne.cpio.org> from "J. Joseph Max Katz" at "May 10, 98 04:47:31 pm"
Message-ID: <199805102341.JAA02987@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by J. Joseph Max Katz:
> Hi,
> 
> What's the latest on the 4BSD re-release that Marshal Kirk McKusick
> is doing?

I've sent the list of people interested to Kirk. He's still a bit vague,
but is looking at selling a 4-CD set of all the 4BSD releases for a
price around US$100. That's a ballpark number, and will depend on how many
people want the set: the more the cheaper it will be.

I haven't heard back from him for a week or so. Should I ask him what
he is planning?

Please, none of this is for public consumption just yet.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From Bob.Supnik at digital.com  Tue May 12 05:01:14 1998
From: Bob.Supnik at digital.com (Bob Supnik)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:01:14 -0400
Subject: vi bug found
Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920671F48E@excmso.mso.dec.com>

For those who want vi to work before V2.3c is released, the problem is
in the divide instruction.  Look for:

		dst = src / src2;
		if ((dst >= 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) {

and change the second line to:

		if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) {

(Thanks to Steve Schultz for finding this.)

The magtape bootstrap is also broken, that will be fixed in V2.3c as
well.

/Bob Supnik

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From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Tue May 12 10:55:24 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:55:24 -0700
Subject: Just got my license from SCO...
Message-ID: <13354936165.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

I'm number AU-31.
-------

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From edgee at cyberpass.net  Tue May 12 12:21:12 1998
From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:12 -0400
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980508194615.O12200@freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199805080414.AAA28438@renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400
Message-ID: <199805120221.WAA16927@renoir.op.net>

> I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not
> floating point.  At the very best, it would indicate the use of the
> floating point registers for straightforward data moves.  I stand by
> my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the
> Seventh Edition nor elsewhere.

I agree:  tar doesn't *use* floating point.  

However, from what I can determine the floating point ops in tar are
not some weird way of moving data around, nor is floating point
being used to do long arithmetic as some have suggested.

Compare the first few tar floating point ops with a dummy program 
consisting of a single call to scanf:

tar, 106 floating point ops:

0:  SETD   ;170011 
20532:  STCFD F0,(R1)   ;176011 
20562:  STF F0,(R1)   ;174011 
22406:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22410:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22460:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22462:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22620:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22622:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
24124:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
24130:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
26616:  LDF F0,#56200   ;172427 056200 
26622:  STF F0,177732(R5)   ;174065 177732 
etc.

scanf, 106 floating point ops:

000000:  SETD   ;170011 
002764:  STCFD F0,(R1)   ;176011 
003014:  STF F0,(R1)   ;174011 
004346:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
004350:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
004420:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
004422:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
004560:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
004562:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
004750:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
004754:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
006410:  LDF F0,#56200   ;172427 056200 
006414:  STF F0,177732(R5)   ;174065 177732 

So it would appear that whatever floating point there is in tar comes 
from library routines which have been linked in, but which tar does 
not use.

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."

Ed

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu May 14 10:59:28 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: More licenses from SCO
Message-ID: <199805140059.KAA08059@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu May 14 11:03:12 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:12 +1000 (EST)
Subject: More licenses from SCO
In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 14, 98 10:59:28 am"
Message-ID: <199805140103.LAA08094@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Warren Toomey:
> I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are:

I forgot to say: Dion gave me license number AU-0, at the behest of
the members of the PUPS mailing list. Thanks all!!
      Warren

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From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se  Mon May 18 19:54:06 1998
From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:06 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Exploited by spammers.
In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980518114414.13620B-100000@lintilla2.df.lth.se>

Hi all!

I want to tell you all how sorry I am for spamming occuring from this site.
Due to several reasons it was possible to exploit the lintilla service 
machines.
We hope we have put an end to it now (it was not an easy task since it 
involved *cringe* beurocracy).

If anybody receives spams from lintilla.df.lth.se or lintilla2.df.lth.se 
from now on please let me know! It should not happen but....

The lintilla services machines does not approve to spam and we try to 
fight back as hard as we are able.

Internet used to be a happy place where people helped eachother and where
life was simple and good. Sometimes I long for those days now gone. =(
Today it seems that greed and abuse is the rule...

Again, sorry for the inconvenience that spamming from this site has caused!

Sincerely yours:
Lars Persson, the Lintilla services.

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From iking at killthewabbit.org  Tue May 19 12:50:09 1998
From: iking at killthewabbit.org (Ian King)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:09 -0700
Subject: Question regarding tape drive interface
Message-ID: <199805190148.SAA10957@forbin.killthewabbit.org>

OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this.....

I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* flavor of UNIX.  I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to interface with the PDP-11.  Reading between the lines of several pages on the Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required?  And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run?  Thanks in advance for any experience you can share!  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case.  Coincidence?  
Ian King <iking at KillTheWabbit.org>  No opinions but my own.  So there.

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From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk  Wed May 20 05:33:00 1998
From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:33:00 +0100
Subject: Question regarding tape drive interface
In-Reply-To: <199805190148.SAA10957@forbin.killthewabbit.org>
Message-ID: <5Im5JEAs5dY1Ewa$@falstaf.demon.co.uk>

In message <199805190148.SAA10957 at forbin.killthewabbit.org>, Ian King
<iking at killthewabbit.org> writes
>OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this.....
>
>I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* 
>flavor of UNIX.  I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to 
>interface with the PDP-11.  Reading between the lines of several pages on the 
>Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required?  
>And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run?  Thanks in 
>advance for any experience you can share!  
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----------------------------------
>24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case.  Coincidence?  
>Ian King <iking at KillTheWabbit.org>  No opinions but my own.  So there.
Wotcher,
You'll need a UNIBUS TS11 card, I don't know the number for this but it
should be relatively easy to get hold of.  BSD2 certainly supports this.

Cheers

Robin
Robin Birch     robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ    Old computers and radios always welcome

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Fri May 29 13:12:02 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST)
Subject: More UNIX Licenses
Message-ID: <199805290312.NAA01694@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

I've just received licenses from SCO for Don Cruickshank and Hartmut Brandt.
Congrats, you two!

Ciao,
	Warren

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From m at mbsks.franken.de  Wed May  6 05:34:17 1998
From: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:34:17 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <m0yWnTm-000HqNC@mbsks.franken.de>

Mahlzeit


My hardware:
  Mentec M70 with 512kB RAM (that must be enough) which can boot
    from DX DY DL DU DM DB MS MT and has 4 serial ports.
  MSCP/DU-Controller which can boot from DM, DP, DL, DR, MS,
    MT, MU, SY, DU.
  It is connected to a 1.2MB-5.25"-FDD and a MFM-HDD of unknown
    size wich I will get tomorrow. (I have now the dox for my
    controller.)

Kernel:
  To use these 4 serial ports, do I have to set "NKL 4" or are
    these not KL11/DL11s? One of these is the normal console
    unter RT-11.
  Is "NBUF 32" OK for 512kB RAM?
  Should I set UCB_CLIST NO or YES?

Installation:
  I think there are three possible ways of installing it:

  1) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the whole disk with
     rtkerm.
     The disk will be bigger than 32MB, so this does not work?

  2) Boot from a RT-11-Floppy and transfer the root-fs and the
     swap-partition then boot BSD and transfer somehow the
     usr-data (kermit? write simple program?).
     This sould also install the disklabel.

  3) Boot from a BSD-Floppy, disklabel, mkfs, transfer data
     (kermit? write simple program?).

  The kernel and diskimages will allways be made on an emulator.

  What do you think is the best/easiest way? Or have you a better
  idea? (Make a tape and use the TU58-emulator?)


Thanks

endergone Zwiebeltuete

-- 
insanity inside

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From m at mbsks.franken.de  Wed May  6 16:24:49 1998
From: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:24:49 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
Message-ID: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC@mbsks.franken.de>

Mahlzeit


I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.

When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
at the end:

./checksys unix
overlay 6 is empty and there are non-empty overlays following it.
System will occupy 156960 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists).

               end {0052310}          nbuf {0012014}           buf {0033654}
             nproc {0012002}          proc {0042454}         ntext {0012004}
              text {0051350}         nfile {0012010}          file {0047370}
            ninode {0012006}         inode {0012076}      ncallout {0012012}
           callout {0024562}     ucb_clist {0012020}        nclist {0012016}
          ram_size {0000000}       xitdesc {0012074}      quotdesc {0000000}
         namecache {0025242}       _iosize {0010030}
**** SYSTEM IS NOT BOOTABLE. ****
*** Exit 1

then I get very often Bus Errors:

# ./config SONJA
./config: 1041 Bus error - core dumped
Copying standard files to ../SONJA.
./config: 1051 Bus error - core dumped
./config: 1052 Bus error - core dumped
./config: ../SONJA/ioconf.c: cannot create
./config: ../SONJA/param.c: cannot create
Setting configuration options for SONJA.
c./config: ../SONJA/loop.h: cannot create
^C# ^C
# mkdir
Bus error - core dumped
# mkdir X
Bus error - core dumped
#

I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
optimization.

Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?


Mahlzeit

endergone Zwiebeltuete

[1] The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
    filesystem.

-- 
insanity inside

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed May  6 16:38:21 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:38:21 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
In-Reply-To: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC@mbsks.franken.de> from Matthias Bruestle at "May 6, 98 08:24:49 am"
Message-ID: <199805060638.QAA02895@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Matthias Bruestle:
> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.

	[that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license]

> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
> [problems]
> 
> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator
> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
>
> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
> filesystem.

Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed
the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here
are some general purpose suggestions from me.

	+ Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption,
	  or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis?

	+ Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot?

	+ The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11
	  emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and
	  installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs.

Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able
to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11
built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work.

I'm off for a short break, but I'll be back Monday. Best of luck with it.

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Wed May  6 17:07:10 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:37:10 +0930
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:38:21PM +1000
References: <m0yWxdJ-000HprC@mbsks.franken.de> <199805060638.QAA02895@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980506163710.A329@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 16:38:21 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Matthias Bruestle:
>> I'm using 2.11_rp_unknown[1] an the newest version of the supnik emulator.
>
> 	[that's in the PUPS Archive, for those without a src license]
>
>> When I'm compiling a kernel (with the newest 2.11BSD sources), I get
>> [problems]
>>
>> I configured the emulator with 1MB RAM. I compiled it with and without
>> optimization. Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator
>> or with the compiler [used to build the emulator?] (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
>>
>> The "distributed" 2.11BSD is not so stable. It is often killing the
>> filesystem.
>
> Hmm, Steven Schultz did find yet another bug in Bob's emulator which fixed
> the crashing vi problem. As Steven knows heaps more about 2.11 than I, here
> are some general purpose suggestions from me.
>
>> Manually fsck on bootup. Does that help prevent fs corruption,
> 	  or is the system killing the filesystem on a regular basis?
>
>> Can you build a GENERIC kernel? Does it boot?
>
>> The 2.11_rp_unknown disk image was built with the new P11
> 	  emulator from the Begemot crew. You might try compiling and
> 	  installing this emulator, and see how 2.11BSD performs.
>
> Anyway, Steven might offer some better advice! Greg Lehey might be able
> to provide you with the P11 config files he uses. I've got the new P11
> built at home, but I can't get the files on it from work.

Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to
answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am.

One point:

> Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
> the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?

First, the compiler is certainly not gcc.  That would never fit in the
address space of a PDP-11.  Secondly, I'd guess it's the emulator.  I
don't think many people have tried 2.11BSD on the Supnik emulator.

I'm using the Begemot emulator (Emulators/P11-2.3 in the archive).  I
get:

[5] root--> cd /usr/src/sys/GRANDPA/
[6] root--> ./checksys unix
System will occupy 295600 bytes of memory (including buffers and clists).

               end {0122636}          nbuf {0013562}           buf {0053542}
             nproc {0013550}          proc {0077060}         ntext {0013552}
              text {0121416}         nfile {0013556}          file {0115726}
            ninode {0013554}         inode {0013646}      ncallout {0013560}
           callout {0044274}     ucb_clist {0013566}        nclist {0013564}
          ram_size {0000000}       xitdesc {0013644}      quotdesc {0000000}
         namecache {0053150}       _iosize {0000000}
[7] root--> 

I won't pretend that the documentation of the interpreter is ideal,
nor that it's easy to set up.  It took me quite a while.  Take a look
at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups.  They are:

-rw-r--r--  1 root  lemis  11477 May  6 16:18 README-emu
-rw-r--r--  1 root  lemis   1746 May  6 16:18 p11conf
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root  lemis    315 May  6 16:19 run_211

README-emu is a brief (and hurried) description of what I did to get
the emulator working, p11conf is my current configuration, and run_211
is the command file I run to actually start the emulator.  Note that
what you get when you run the emulator is just the diagnostic console;
to actually use the machine, you need to telnet to ports 10000 to
10003.  Anybody interested in so doing can telnet to pdp11.lemis.com
and log in as guest, password "Today only".  Don't break anything,
please--I haven't checked security too much.

Greg
--
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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Thu May  7 01:01:21 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:01:21 +0100
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
Message-ID: <199805061501.QAA08913@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>

In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
versions of these at:

	http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr

--tim

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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Thu May  7 02:12:37 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:12:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Early unix on simulators --- partial newbie success ---yeah!
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm"
Message-ID: <199805061612.MAA00456@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

I managed to get the Sim23b pdp11 emulator running on the v5 unix.
It is hard to believe a 25K kernel....(:+}}..... so much for code
bloat over the years.

My goal is to try to bring it up on a KSR35 hooked up to a headless
pc (386 board in a closet box) on the dos emulator, or whatever would
be the minimal required to get it going.

Can anyone suggest ways to reach that goal?  I am still having no
luck with the Ersatz 2.0 emulator on dos, because I can't seem to
get the incantations right.  I get to the @ prompt, but after
entering unix, it just sits for a bit, the HD spins, and after a
few seconds it is back at the @ prompt.  There is still some magick
mystical juju required (albeit I am the dummy here....(:+\\.....)

I could port a stripped Linux 0.98 kernel maybe, to get it up,
and try that, but I was hoping the dos emulator would run with it.

Any suggestions and pointers are appreciated.

Thanks, and kudos to all the PUPS crew and Dennis Ritchie for
resurrecting the old v5 image.  This kindof makes computing
fun, for a change.....

Now, where did I stash that KSR35.....

Bob Keys.....


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From m at mbsks.franken.de  Thu May  7 02:39:05 1998
From: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 18:39:05 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Installation of 2.11BSD (II)
In-Reply-To: <19980506163710.A329@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 6, 98 04:37:10 pm"
Message-ID: <m0yX7Dl-000HqdC@mbsks.franken.de>

Mahlzeit


According to Greg Lehey:
> Well, I started an answer, and decided that Steven would be able to
> answer better, but since you mention my name, OK, here I am.
Thanks. :)

> > Is this a problem with the distribution, with the emulator or with
> > the compiler (gcc 2.7.2.1)?
> First, the compiler is certainly not gcc.  That would never fit in the
The compiler which compiled the emulator is gcc. Log time ago I compiled
someones emulator with gcc 2.5.8 and it did only work without any
optimization.

> nor that it's easy to set up.  It took me quite a while.  Take a look
> at the files in ftp://ftp.lemis.com/pub/pups.  They are:
Fine, I will try it this night or tomorrow.


Thanks

endergone Zwiebeltuete

-- 
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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu May  7 06:43:56 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:43:56 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
In-Reply-To: <199805060638.QAA02895@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 6, 98 04:38:21 pm"
Message-ID: <199805062043.GAA03625@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Matthias,
	Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working
with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email.

	Warren


    	  Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator

Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code
for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu
directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o.

With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here:

total 16
-rw-------  1 root  wheel  1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help
-rw-------  1 root  wheel   648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf
-rw-------  1 root  wheel  4096 Dec 12  1994 qna.rom
-rw-------  1 root  wheel   512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot

All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf
configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made
a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is:


libdir = .
ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
end
ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
	0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12
end
ctrl kl
	017777560  060  064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net  -7 -t 10002
	017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net  -7 -t 10003
end
ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
end
ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
end
ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
end

Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root.
The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does.

Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory,
do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require
any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few
times. You will see:

% telnet localhost 10002
Trying 127.0.0.1...
Connected to localhost.
Escape character is '^]'.
-----
					<---- Hit Return once or twice here
: xp(0,0,0)unix
Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700

2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
    root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON

attaching lo0

phys mem  = 2097152
avail mem = 1668352
user mem  = 307200

January  8 08:25:02 init: configure system

lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached
cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped:  No CSR.
cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped:  No CSR.
cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped:  No CSR.
erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
# 

That's it!!

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu May  7 06:49:24 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 06:49:24 +1000 (EST)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "May 6, 98 04:01:21 pm"
Message-ID: <199805062049.GAA03699@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Tim Bradshaw:
> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> versions of these at:
> 
> 	http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
> 
> --tim

Thanks Tim!

	Warren

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From m at mbsks.franken.de  Thu May  7 07:45:58 1998
From: m at mbsks.franken.de (Matthias Bruestle)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:45:58 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 7, 98 06:43:56 am"
Message-ID: <m0yXC0k-000HqiC@mbsks.franken.de>

Mahlzeit


The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll
look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD
mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD?


Mahlzeit

endergone Zwiebeltuete

-- 
insanity inside

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu May  7 09:04:16 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:34:16 +0930
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805061501.QAA08913@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>; from Tim Bradshaw on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 04:01:21PM +0100
References: <199805061501.QAA08913@todday.aiai.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <19980507083416.B396@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> versions of these at:
>
> 	http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr

Somebody else posted this a few days ago.  Does anybody know how to
view them?  They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
page.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
finger grog at lemis.com for PGP public key

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu May  7 10:08:49 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:49 +0930
Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
In-Reply-To: <199805062043.GAA03625@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 06:43:56AM +1000
References: <199805060638.QAA02895@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <199805062043.GAA03625@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980507093849.H396@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  6:43:56 +1000, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Matthias,
> 	Here are some instructions on getting that RP disk image working
> with the Begemot P11 2.3 emulator. These should supplement Greg's email.

Hey, I thought you were in freezing Tasmania :-)

>     	  Running the 2.11BSD RP disk image on the P11 Emulator
>
> Ok, here's how I got P11-2.3 running. Firstly, I extracted the source code
> for P11 from the tarball, and built the emulator in the extracted emu
> directory. Note: you need lots of virtual memory to build instab.o.
>
> With p11 built, I went into ../run, and copied the following files here:
>
> total 16
> -rw-------  1 root  wheel  1562 Apr 22 19:56 mon.help
> -rw-------  1 root  wheel   648 Apr 22 19:55 p11conf
> -rw-------  1 root  wheel  4096 Dec 12  1994 qna.rom
> -rw-------  1 root  wheel   512 Apr 22 19:41 rp.boot
>
> All except p11conf came from ../emu. I had a hard time getting the p11conf
> configuration file working, what with the cpp path etc. So I basically made
> a p11conf file which doesn't use any #defines. Here it is:
>
>
> libdir = .
> ctrl rl 017774400 0160 4 4000
> end
> ctrl rp 017776700 0254 5 4000
> 	0 /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root 12
> end
> ctrl kl
> 	017777560  060  064 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net  -7 -t 10002
> 	017776500 0300 0304 4 ../emu/IOProgs/tty_net  -7 -t 10003
> end
> ctrl mr 017777520 ./rp.boot
> end
> ctrl lp 017777514 0200 4
> end
> ctrl tm 017772520 0224 5
> end
>
> Note that the emulated RP disk image is at /usr/local/src/RP_211bsd_root.
> The number 12 after this is arbitrary, I have no idea what it does.
>
> Now, to run the emulator using the p11conf above from the run directory,
> do ../emu/p11 -d &. You can run it in the background as it doesn't require
> any keyboard interaction. Then telnet localhost 10002, and hit Return a few
> times. You will see:

In fact, you can use any port from 10000 to 10003.  They map to
/dev/console and /dev/ttyl1 through /dev/ttyl3 (though for some reason
/etc/ttys doesn't contain entries for the latter two).

>> telnet localhost 10002
> Trying 127.0.0.1...
> Connected to localhost.
> Escape character is '^]'.
> -----
> 					<---- Hit Return once or twice here
> : xp(0,0,0)unix
> Boot: bootdev=05000 bootcsr=0176700
>
> 2.11 BSD UNIX #11: Tue Jan 6 16:57:02 MET 1998
>     root at pdp11.begemot.com:/usr/src/sys/HIPPON
>
> attaching lo0
>
> phys mem  = 2097152
> avail mem = 1668352
> user mem  = 307200
>
> January  8 08:25:02 init: configure system
>
> lp 0 csr 177514 vector 200 attached
> rl 0 csr 174400 vector 160 attached
> tm 0 csr 172520 vector 224 attached
> xp 0 csr 176700 vector 254 attached
> cn 1 csr 176500 vector 300 attached
> cn 2 csr 176510 vector 310 skipped:  No CSR.
> cn 3 csr 176520 vector 320 skipped:  No CSR.
> cn 4 csr 176530 vector 330 skipped:  No CSR.
> erase, kill ^U, intr ^C
> #
>
> That's it!!

Well, no, at this point you're in single-user mode.  To continue,
enter ^D:

# Fast boot ... skipping disk checks
checking quotas: done.
Assuming NETWORKING system ...
add host 192.109.197.211: gateway 127.1
add net default: gateway freebie.lemis.com
starting system logger
preserving editor files
clearing /tmp
standard daemons: update cron accounting.
starting network daemons: inetd rwhod printer.
starting local daemons:.
Wed May  6 10:45:41 CST 1998
May  6 10:45:42 pdp11 init: kernel security level changed from 0 to 1


2.11 BSD UNIX (pdp11.lemis.com) (console)

login: 

I've forgotten what the standard password on root is; I fear it has
*not* been removed.  It could be 'begemot' or 'begemot1'.  To change
it, you will need to rebuild passwd, which will not work otherwise.
Do that in /usr/src/bin/passwd.  If you have trouble, I can send you a
passwd binary.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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From grog at lemis.com  Thu May  7 10:16:40 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:46:40 +0930
Subject: Using P11 emulator (was 2.11BSD installation problems)
In-Reply-To: <m0yXC0k-000HqiC@mbsks.franken.de>; from Matthias Bruestle on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 11:45:58PM +0200
References: <199805062043.GAA03625@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> <m0yXC0k-000HqiC@mbsks.franken.de>
Message-ID: <19980507094640.I396@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 23:45:58 +0200, Matthias Bruestle wrote:
> Mahlzeit

Mahlzeit (*rülps*)

> The setup looks more complicated than the supnik emulator. So, I'll
> look tomorrow. What I have noticed is, that there is bsdi and freeBSD
> mentioned in p11conf but not linux. Does it require a BSD?

Yes, I think so.  The access to the machine goes via the tunnel
driver, and that would need to be completed for Linux.  The authors
don't use Linux, so they haven't done the work.  They don't use BSD/OS
much any more, so if you are going to install one, FreeBSD is the
obvious choice, especially considering the price differential.

Of course, any old UNIX user should be using BSD anyway, especially if
you want to emulate older BSDs :-)

Greg
--
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From edgee at cyberpass.net  Thu May  7 10:45:41 1998
From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.)
Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:45:41 -0400
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Message-ID: <199805070045.UAA04653@renoir.op.net>

Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.

As you know, my first approach was to simple-mindedly examine every
word of a given program's disk image to come up with an estimate of
the number of floating point operations used by the program.

I would like to thank those who pointed out the shortcoming of this
approach and offered valuable advice on how to achieve my aim of
accurate counts.  Based on these comments, I decided to create a 
full fledged disassembler for the PDP-11.

I have tested my program and believe it produces an exact count of
all floating point operations.

In case you're interested in how my initial estimates compare with 
the new, precise counts, I list those data below as well.  

New Approach.
uv7 bin directory
Programs using 10 or more floating point ops.

graph 674
awk 657
spline 389
sa 300
prof 260
iostat 243
t450 222
t300 222
t300s 212
vplot 187
tek 185
adb 128
units 118
random 116
xsend 106
xget 106
tsort 106
tar 106
refer 106
quot 106
nroff 88
factor 88
ac 88
primes 78
poke6 62
lex 51
roff 32
as 18

Old Approach.
uv7 bin directory
Programs using 100 or more floating point ops.

awk 2540
refer 1644
xsend 1326
tbl 1315
graph 1300
xget 1288
adb 1152
eqn 918
enroll 915
neqn 874
nroff 841
make 822
spline 812
yacc 789
sa 714
tar 706
lex 628
tek 618
prof 608
t300s 604
dc 601
vplot 582
iostat 579
t300 576
t450 574
em 530
bc 509
ratfor 474
quot 452
tsort 407
sh 381
expr 380
units 379
ac 365
sort 358
ps 327
restor 323
rmail 321
ed 321
mail 321
ptx 320
egrep 313
ls 310
ps.old 306
m4 304
random 298
su 296
tp 285
ops 282
cu 282
diff 277
pr 275
poke6 275
sed 267
find 267
dump 261
deroff 255
icheck 251
ls.11 249
ld 246
login 240
cptree 230
passwd 227
login.old 218
cc 210
prep 205
at 203
dumpdir 197
join 196
wc 193
tc 192
nm 191
pstat 190
file 187
pr.old 186
crypt 182
date 181
grep 180
ranlib 174
fgrep 172
ncheck 159
checkeq 157
du 155
who 152
as 152
od 151
look 149
roff 149
ar 146
vpr 144
dd 141
tk 141
time 139
rm 138
cb 134
mv 134
comm 133
newgrp 133
dcheck 132
factor 132
rmdir 125
write 125
primes 124
cmp 121
dfOLD 120
df 120
size 117
v6sh 116
vcopy 113
nice 113
col 110
ln 106
sum 105
clri 104
cat 103
tail 103
sleep 101

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu May  7 11:37:24 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:07:24 +0930
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <199805070045.UAA04653@renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400
References: <199805070045.UAA04653@renoir.op.net>
Message-ID: <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.

I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.

Greg
--
See complete headers for address and phone numbers
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From afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk  Thu May  7 18:55:29 1998
From: afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (Alan Bain)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:29 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>

On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:

> On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
> 
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
> 
According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on
a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling
say numeric code.  There's a short section on how to do a build if you
don't have fp (like me on my 11/34).   I think the V7 manual may well be
on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful,

Alan Bain



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From grog at lemis.com  Thu May  7 19:23:06 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 18:53:06 +0930
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>; from Alan Bain on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:55:29AM +0100
References: <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com> <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980507095248.5706A-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <19980507185306.I12200@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  9:55:29 +0100, Alan Bain wrote:
> On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:
>
>> On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
>>> Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
>>> operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
>>> According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
>>> adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
>>
>> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>>
> According to my paper copy of the UV7 manual, it is possible to run V7 on
> a machine with no floating point, and the main problem is when compiling
> say numeric code.  There's a short section on how to do a build if you
> don't have fp (like me on my 11/34).   I think the V7 manual may well be
> on line; but if not I can do a Xerox of this if it would be useful,

The Seventh Edition manuals are available in a number of places,
including of course the PUPS archive, but dmr has also put them on the
web at http://plan9.bell-labs.com/7thEdMan/index.html.

Greg
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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Thu May  7 23:05:02 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:05:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <19980507083416.B396@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 7, 98 08:34:16 am"
Message-ID: <199805071305.JAA02117@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
> > In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
> > versions of these at:
> >
> > 	http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
> 
> Somebody else posted this a few days ago.  Does anybody know how to
> view them?  They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
> page.
> 
> Greg

He put up postscript versions, too.

I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
an I will probably wind up doing that.  Then we will have a working
set of sources for clean copy.

Bob Keys


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From grog at lemis.com  Fri May  8 09:02:36 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:32:36 +0930
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805071305.JAA02117@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>; from Robert D. Keys on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:05:02AM -0400
References: <19980507083416.B396@freebie.lemis.com> <199805071305.JAA02117@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <19980508083236.N12200@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>> On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 16:01:21 +0100, Tim Bradshaw wrote:
>>> In case other people haven't seen this, Dennis Ritchie has (scanned)
>>> versions of these at:
>>>
>>> 	http://www.cs.bell-labs.com/~dmr
>>
>> Somebody else posted this a few days ago.  Does anybody know how to
>> view them?  They're in .gif format, and xv only shows me the first
>> page.
>>
>> Greg
>
> He put up postscript versions, too.

I don't see them at
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/1stEdman.html.  Where are they?

> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> an I will probably wind up doing that.  Then we will have a working
> set of sources for clean copy.

Great idea.  Keep us posted.

Greg
--
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From edgee at cyberpass.net  Fri May  8 14:14:03 1998
From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 00:14:03 -0400
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199805070045.UAA04653@renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Wed, May 06, 1998 at 08:45:41PM -0400
Message-ID: <199805080414.AAA28438@renoir.op.net>

> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.

Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see 
whether my results hold up.  They do.

According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations.  Here
are the first few.  The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as
well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete 
disassembled code for tar, let me know.

[root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
read 16128 bytes
prog string is 16128 bytes
0:  SETD   ;170011 
20532:  STCFD F0,(R1)   ;176011 
20562:  STF F0,(R1)   ;174011 
22406:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22410:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22460:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22462:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22620:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22622:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
24124:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
24130:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
26616:  LDF F0,#56200   ;172427 056200 

I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and
because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged
by the number of floating point ops contained in tar).

The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating 
point:

~_filbuf
~_innum
~atof
~cvt
~ecvt
~fcvt
~gcvt
~isatty
~main
~mktemp

The addresses of these routines, as listed in tar's symbol 
table--see attached file symlisttar.txt--correspond to those of the 
disassembled floating point ops in tar. 

I've learned a lot while responding to the criticisms offered by you 
and others on this list.  Thank you.

Ed

-------------- next part --------------
[root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
read 16128 bytes
prog string is 16128 bytes
0:  SETD   ;170011 
20532:  STCFD F0,(R1)   ;176011 
20562:  STF F0,(R1)   ;174011 
22406:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22410:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22460:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22462:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22620:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22622:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
24124:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
24130:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
26616:  LDF F0,#56200   ;172427 056200 
26622:  STF F0,177732(R5)   ;174065 177732 
26676:  CLRF 177762(R5)   ;170465 177762 
26710:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
26714:  CMPF F0,177732(R5)   ;173465 177732 
26720:  CFCC   ;170000 
26724:  LDF F0,#41040   ;172427 041040 
26730:  MULF F0,177762(R5)   ;171065 177762 
26742:  LDCIF F1,R1   ;177101 
26744:  ADDF F0,F1   ;172001 
26746:  STF F0,177762(R5)   ;174065 177762 
27006:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
27012:  CMPF F0,177732(R5)   ;173465 177732 
27016:  CFCC   ;170000 
27022:  LDF F0,#41040   ;172427 041040 
27026:  MULF F0,177762(R5)   ;171065 177762 
27040:  LDCIF F1,R1   ;177101 
27042:  ADDF F0,F1   ;172001 
27044:  STF F0,177762(R5)   ;174065 177762 
27304:  CLRF 177762(R5)   ;170465 177762 
27314:  LDF F0,#40200   ;172427 040200 
27320:  STF F0,177752(R5)   ;174065 177752 
27324:  LDF F0,#40640   ;172427 040640 
27330:  STF F0,177742(R5)   ;174065 177742 
27344:  LDF F0,177742(R5)   ;172465 177742 
27350:  MULF F0,F0   ;171000 
27352:  STF F0,177742(R5)   ;174065 177742 
27366:  LDF F0,177752(R5)   ;172465 177752 
27372:  MULF F0,177742(R5)   ;171065 177742 
27376:  STF F0,177752(R5)   ;174065 177752 
27422:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
27426:  DIVF F0,177752(R5)   ;174465 177752 
27434:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
27440:  MULF F0,177752(R5)   ;171065 177752 
27444:  STF F0,177762(R5)   ;174065 177762 
27462:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
27466:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
27500:  STF F0,177762(R5)   ;174065 177762 
27512:  NEGF F0   ;170700 
27514:  STF F0,177762(R5)   ;174065 177762 
27520:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
32720:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
32724:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
32764:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
32770:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
33060:  CLRF F0   ;170400 
33062:  CMPF F0,4(R5)   ;173465 000004 
33066:  CFCC   ;170000 
33100:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33104:  NEGF F0   ;170700 
33106:  STF F0,4(R5)   ;174065 000004 
33120:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33124:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
33136:  STF F0,4(R5)   ;174065 000004 
33146:  CLRF F0   ;170400 
33150:  CMPF F0,177762(R5)   ;173465 177762 
33154:  CFCC   ;170000 
33160:  CLRF F0   ;170400 
33162:  CMPF F0,4(R5)   ;173465 000004 
33166:  CFCC   ;170000 
33202:  LDF F0,177762(R5)   ;172465 177762 
33206:  DIVF F0,#41040   ;174427 041040 
33212:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
33224:  STF F0,177752(R5)   ;174065 177752 
33230:  ADDF F0,43662   ;172067 010426 
33234:  MULF F0,#41040   ;171027 041040 
33240:  STCFI F0,R0   ;175400 
33252:  CLRF F0   ;170400 
33254:  CMPF F0,177762(R5)   ;173465 177762 
33260:  CFCC   ;170000 
33276:  LDF F0,177752(R5)   ;172465 177752 
33302:  STF F0,4(R5)   ;174065 000004 
33310:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33314:  MULF F0,#41040   ;171027 041040 
33320:  STF F0,177752(R5)   ;174065 177752 
33324:  CMPF F0,#40200   ;173427 040200 
33330:  CFCC   ;170000 
33414:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33420:  MULF F0,#41040   ;171027 041040 
33424:  STF F0,4(R5)   ;174065 000004 
33436:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33442:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
33454:  STF F0,4(R5)   ;174065 000004 
33460:  LDF F0,177752(R5)   ;172465 177752 
33464:  STCFI F0,R0   ;175400 
33666:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
33672:  STEXP F0,R0   ;175000 
33700:  LDEXP F0,R0   ;176400 
33702:  CFCC   ;170000 
33710:  LDF F0,43672   ;172467 007756 
33716:  LDF F0,43672   ;172467 007750 
33722:  NEGF F0   ;170700 
34112:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
34116:  MODF F0,#40200   ;171427 040200 
34122:  STF F1, at 14(R5)   ;174175 000014 
[root at oskar uv7]# 
-------------- next part --------------
~main~usage~dorep~endtape=003004
~getdir~passtap=003414
~putfile=003566
~doxtrac=005656
~dotable=006776
~putempt=007126
~longt~pmode~select~checkdi=007506
~onintr~onquit~onhup~onterm~tomodes=010132
~checksu=010344
~checkw~respons=010560
~checkup=010750
~done~prefix~getwdir=011302
~lookup~bsrch~cmp~readtap=012704
~writeta=013350
~backtap=013644
~flushta=014044
~copy~freopen=014146
~fseek~rewind~fread~fwrite~system~fopen~scanf~fscanf~sscanf~_doscan=016056
~_innum~_instr~_getccl=021242
~fprintf=021376
~printf~sprintf=021532
~ungetc~_filbuf=022002
~gcvt~_strout=024570
~_flsbuf=025130
~fflush~_cleanu=025702
~fclose~_endope=026072
~create~_findio=026516
~atof~atoi~ctime~localti=027716
~sunday~gmtime~asctime=031220
~dysize~ct_numb=031560
~malloc~free~realloc=032422
~ecvt~fcvt~cvt~isatty~mktemp~stty~gtty~strcat~strcmp~strcpy

From grog at lemis.com  Fri May  8 20:16:15 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:46:15 +0930
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438@renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400
References: <199805070045.UAA04653@renoir.op.net>; <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com> <199805080414.AAA28438@renoir.op.net>
Message-ID: <19980508194615.O12200@freebie.lemis.com>

On Fri,  8 May 1998 at  0:14:03 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
Content-Description: Mail message body
>> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
>
> Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see
> whether my results hold up.  They do.
>
> According to my count, tar uses 106 floating point operations.  Here
> are the first few.  The complete list, tar3.txt, is attached as
> well for your perusal. If you'd like to look at the complete
> disassembled code for tar, let me know.
>
> [root at oskar uv7]# ../dis/disuv7.pl < tar | grep ';17'
> file header: 410 37400 4254 27422 20270 0 0 1
> read 16128 bytes
> prog string is 16128 bytes
> 0:  SETD   ;170011
> 20532:  STCFD F0,(R1)   ;176011
> 20562:  STF F0,(R1)   ;174011
> 22406:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424
> 22410:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046
> 22460:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424
> 22462:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046
> 22620:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424
> 22622:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046
> 24124:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004
> 24130:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046
> 26616:  LDF F0,#56200   ;172427 056200
>
> I chose tar as an example because it is an important utility and
> because it is a relatively heavy user of floating point (as guaged
> by the number of floating point ops contained in tar).

I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not
floating point.  At the very best, it would indicate the use of the
floating point registers for straightforward data moves.  I stand by
my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the
Seventh Edition nor elsewhere.

For the fun of it, I took the source of tar from the Seventh Edition
(/usr/src/cmd/tar/tar.c) and compiled it on 2.11BSD.  I had some minor
compilation problems due to different directory structures, which I
solved by #ifdefing out the following code:

#if 0
                        for (j=0; j < DIRSIZ; j++)
                                *cp2++ = dbuf.d_name[j];
                        *cp2 = '\0';
                        close(infile);
                        putfile(buf, cp);
                        infile = open(".", 0);
                        i++;
                        lseek(infile, (long) (sizeof(dbuf) * i), 0);
#endif

I think we can agree that they don't contain FP code.  Here are some
results:

[23] root--> cc -n -s -O tar.c -S
[24] root--> grep -i ldf tar.s
[25] root--> grep -i mul tar.s


> The following routines in 7th Edition tar appear to use floating
> point:
>
>> _filbuf
>> _innum
>> atof
>> cvt
>> ecvt
>> fcvt
>> gcvt
>> isatty
>> main
>> mktemp

atof, cvt, ecvt, fcvt and gcvt are conversion routines which use
floating point, so I can agree that they would contain FP code which,
however, would not be used.  isatty is a library routine which is
simple enough to quote:

/*
 * Returns 1 iff file is a tty
 */

#include <sgtty.h>

isatty(f)
{
        struct sgttyb ttyb;

        if (gtty(f, &ttyb) < 0)
                return(0);
        return(1);
}

Evidently there's no FP code there.

It's fun to go looking for things like this.  But never trust
anything, especially not your own judgement, until you have a couple
of different ways to prove it.  You have the sources there; go ahead
and check them out.

Greg
--
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From rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu  Fri May  8 23:28:40 1998
From: rdkeys at seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu (Robert D. Keys)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:28:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <19980508083236.N12200@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 8, 98 08:32:36 am"
Message-ID: <199805081328.JAA03767@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>

> On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> > an I will probably wind up doing that.  Then we will have a working
> > set of sources for clean copy.
> 
> Great idea.  Keep us posted.
> 
> Greg

I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them.  I will
port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version.  Alas, my
html is not so good.

Bob


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From afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk  Sat May  9 00:08:38 1998
From: afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk (Alan Bain)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:08:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980508150740.5409B-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>

On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote:

> > On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
> > > I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
> > > an I will probably wind up doing that.  Then we will have a working
> > > set of sources for clean copy.
> > 
> > Great idea.  Keep us posted.
> > 
> > Greg
> 
> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them.  I will
> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version.  Alas, my
> html is not so good.
> 
It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I
could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff
source first of course!)

Alan Bain


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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Sat May  9 00:35:45 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:35:45 +0100 (BST)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <199805081328.JAA03767@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
References: <19980508083236.N12200@freebie.lemis.com>
	<199805081328.JAA03767@seedlab1.cropsci.ncsu.edu>
Message-ID: <199805081435.PAA20682@aiai.ed.ac.uk>

* Robert D Keys wrote:

> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them.  I will
> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version.  Alas, my
> html is not so good.

I could probably manufacture HTML from roff reasonably rapidly,
assuming the originals are vaguely clean.  I used to do this for a
living at one piunt (:).

--tim

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From Jason.Stevens at aexp.com  Sat May  9 03:25:16 1998
From: Jason.Stevens at aexp.com (Jason Stevens)
Date: 08 May 1998 10:25:16 -0700
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Message-ID:   <0D35C35533FFC066*/c=us/admd=attmail/prmd=amex/o=trs/ou=HUB1/ou=AMEX/s=Stevens/g=Jason/@MHS>

Could it be possible that all the floating point calls are part of the crt.0 
initialization libs?!  They may be in there as part of a initialization 
routeen to detect a fp, and use it if it's there, although I really doubt tar 
would really need an fp call at all.. It sounds like some kind of generic 
startup thing..  Unfortunatly I don't have any source to anything at the 
moment... If anyone wants to dive check the startup libs...  Oh well until 
then, I'm just waiting for SCO to send me my no.. :)


TTYL!

Jason

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From merlyn at Geeks.ORG  Sun May 10 01:14:19 1998
From: merlyn at Geeks.ORG (Doug McIntyre)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:14:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: First edition Unix manuals
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980508150740.5409B-100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk> from Alan Bain at "May 8, 98 03:08:38 pm"
Message-ID: <19980509151419.3780A0D9A@jacobs.Geeks.ORG>

> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>> On Thu,  7 May 1998 at  9:05:02 -0400, Robert D. Keys wrote:
>>>> I emailed him about the possibility of recreating the roff sources,
>>>> an I will probably wind up doing that.  Then we will have a working
>>>> set of sources for clean copy.
>>> 
>>> Great idea.  Keep us posted.
>>> 
>>> Greg
>> 
>> I have the intro and first few manpages of section 1 done so far.
>> Maybe a week or so and then if someone will proof them.  I will
>> port them in original roff source, and then make a troff set.
>> Dennis was wanting someone to tackle an html version.  Alas, my
>> html is not so good.
>> 
> It shouldn't be that hard to make HTML directly from the roff source (I
> could probably be persuaded to do something like this, given the roff
> source first of course!)

Or use programs written already to do that, like RosettaMan (at least
I still call it that, the author changed its name). Here's a blurb
from its announcement.

:: PolyglotMan (nee RosettaMan) is a filter for UNIX manual pages.  It
:: takes as input man pages for a variety of UNIX flavors and produces as
:: output a variety of file formats.  Currently PolyglotMan accepts man
:: pages from the following flavors of UNIX: Hewlett-Packard HP-UX, AT&T
:: System V, SunOS, Sun Solaris, OSF/1, DEC Ultrix, SGI IRIX, Linux, SCO,
:: FreeBSD; and produces output for the following formats: printable
:: ASCII only (stripping page headers and footers), section and
:: subsection headers only, TkMan, [tn]roff, RTF, SGML (soon--I finally
:: found a DTD), HTML, MIME, LaTeX, LaTeX 2e, Perl 5's pod.  Previously
:: <I>PolyglotMan</I> required pages to be formatted by nroff prior to
:: its processing; with version 3.0, it prefers [tn]roff source and
:: usually can produce results that are better yet.
:: 
:: PolyglotMan improves upon other man page filters in several ways: (1) its
:: analysis recognizes the structural pieces of man pages, enabling high
:: quality output, (2) its modular structure permits easy augmentation of
:: output formats, (3) it accepts man pages formatted with the variant
:: macros of many different flavors of UNIX, and (4) it doesn't require
:: modification of or cooperation with any other program.

:: The home location for PolyglotMan is ftp.cs.berkeley.edu:
:: /ucb/people/phelps/tcltk/rman.tar.Z (this is a softlink to the latest,
:: numbered version).  If you discover a bug and you obtained PolyglotMan
:: at some other site, first grab it from this one to see if the problem
:: has been fixed.

This is only for man pages, but probably could take the papers in ms
format and give a rough translation, or hack up polyglotman some to do
ms as well..


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From edgee at cyberpass.net  Sun May 10 02:04:55 1998
From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:04:55 -0400
Subject: Visible Front End-advice?
Message-ID: <199805091604.MAA00978@renoir.op.net>

I'd like to write a visible front end for Bob's emulator, but I'm not 
sure how to go about doing it.   What I'd like is another window that 
shows the state of the emulator--PC, SP, MMR etc.--in real time.

Any suggestions/ideas?

TIA

Ed




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From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Sun May 10 06:43:26 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:43:26 GMT
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
Message-ID: <9805092143.ZM1440@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>

I'm looking for some advice...

For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition
system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it.  This disk
has to have the swap space, as well.  The machine it will be used on has
256K bytes RAM.

How many blocks should I leave for swap?  Or, to put it another way, what
magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the
number of blocks and number of inodes?

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

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From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Sun May 10 06:46:36 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:46:36 GMT
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
In-Reply-To: "Pete Turnbull" <pete@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
        "mkfs on an RL02" (May  9, 21:43)
References: <9805092143.ZM1440@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <9805092146.ZM1447@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>

On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02...

and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers
were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer
exists?"

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

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From bdc at world.std.com  Sun May 10 18:17:06 1998
From: bdc at world.std.com (Brian D Chase)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:17:06 -0700 (PST)
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <199805080414.AAA28438@renoir.op.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980510011221.27113A-100000@world.std.com>


On Fri, 8 May 1998, Ed G. wrote:

> > I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.
> 
> Your skepticism spurred me to examine a Unix utility in depth to see 
> whether my results hold up.  They do.

Is it possible that you're mistakenly disassembling embedded data as if it
were code?  And perhaps that those data items contain arrangements of byte
values which translate to FP instructions?

-brian.
---
Brian "JARAI" Chase | http://world.std.com/~bdc/ | VAXZilla LIVES!!!


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sun May 10 18:26:23 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:26:23 +1000 (EST)
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
In-Reply-To: <9805092143.ZM1440@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:43:26 pm"
Message-ID: <199805100826.SAA02363@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Pete Turnbull:
> I'm looking for some advice...
> 
> For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th Edition
> system disk on an RL02 that previously had some other O/S on it.  This disk
> has to have the swap space, as well.  The machine it will be used on has
> 256K bytes RAM.
> 
> How many blocks should I leave for swap?  Or, to put it another way, what
> magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file for the
> number of blocks and number of inodes?

The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate
the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve.

Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the
parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7:

rl
tm
root rl 0
swap rl 0
swplo 18000
nswap 2480

In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks.
The mkfs manual says:

       If  the  prototype file cannot be opened and its name con-
       sists of a string of digits, mkfs  builds  a  file  system
       with a single empty directory on it.  The size of the file
       system is the value of proto interpreted as a decimal num-
       ber.  The number of i-nodes is calculated as a function of
       the filsystem size.  The boot program is  left  uninitial-
       ized.

Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to
set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so.

Hope this helps,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sun May 10 18:27:43 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:27:43 +1000 (EST)
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
In-Reply-To: <9805092146.ZM1447@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk> from Pete Turnbull at "May 9, 98 08:46:36 pm"
Message-ID: <199805100827.SAA02382@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Pete Turnbull:
> On May 9, 21:43, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > I need to make a bootable 7th Edition system disk on an RL02...
> 
> and then thought, "I wonder if there's some easy way to tell what numbers
> were used on an existing system disk, if the prototype file no longer
> exists?"

You'd have to disassemble the kernel. Alternatively, consult the
size of the free block list on the disk's image.

	Warren

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From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Sun May 10 20:02:46 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:02:46 GMT
Subject: mkfs on an RL02
In-Reply-To: Warren Toomey <wkt@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
        "Re: mkfs on an RL02" (May 10, 18:26)
References: <199805100826.SAA02363@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <9805101102.ZM7636@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>

Hi, Warren.

On May 10, 18:26, Warren Toomey wrote:
> > For the first time in umpteen years, I need to make a bootable 7th
> > Edition system disk on an RL02...

> > How many blocks should I leave for swap?  Or, to put it another way,
> > what magic number pair would people suggest I put in the prototype file
> > for the number of blocks and number of inodes?
>
> The best & only answer here is to consult to xxconf file used to generate
> the 7th Edition kernel, as this will tell you how much swap to reserve.

I should have thought of that!  Steven told me the same thing last night.

> Vanilla V7 didn't come with RL02 support, so all I can give you are the
> parameters used for the RL02 images I have here with V7:
>
> rl
> tm
> root rl 0
> swap rl 0
> swplo 18000
> nswap 2480

That looks the same as mine.

> In other words, the filesystem should be no bigger than 18,000 blocks.

I had a look in the superblock on a couple of bootable RL02s, and found
18,000.

> Distribution V7 had roughly 2,600 files & directories. If I had to
> set a value, I'd choose 5,000 or so.

I knew about using digits for the blocks instead of a proto file, but I
thought it might be safer to specify the number for the inodes.  I tried to
figure it out from the results of icheck but I'm much happier with your
suggestion.

I'll let you know how I get on.  The reason to do this today is two-fold:

    One of my packs is getting flaky, so I want to make a good copy, with
    a clean install (most of mine have lots of localised junk), and

    our department has an Open Day on Wednesday, and I've been coerced
    into running a display of old machines.  The 11T23 is the easiest PDP
    for me to move there.

Thanks for the help!

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

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From bqt at Update.UU.SE  Sun May 10 21:48:23 1998
From: bqt at Update.UU.SE (Johnny Billquist)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:48:23 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980507110724.M396@freebie.lemis.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.VUL.3.93.980510134657.29637B-100000@Zeke.Update.UU.SE>

On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote:

> On Wed,  6 May 1998 at 20:45:41 -0400, Ed G. wrote:
> > Using a new approach, I have re-counted the number of floating point
> > operations for the utilities contained in Unix's bin directory.
> > According to my results, many important 7th Edition programs such as
> > adb, awk and tar make heavy use of floating point on the PDP-11.
> 
> I'll believe this when you pinpoint the instructions.

I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe
that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few
FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
appearant.

	Johnny

Johnny Billquist                  || "I'm on a bus
                                  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at update.uu.se           ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive!                     ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol


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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Mon May 11 02:49:44 1998
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:49:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
Message-ID: <199805101649.JAA00593@moe.2bsd.com>

Hi -

> From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I believe
> that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a few
> FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
> appearant.

	It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP.  The long
	divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7 yet)
	because it is much much less code to convert the operands to FP, do
	the divide, and then convert the result back (the alternative is
	about two pages of code).  Different CPUs handle a fault during a
	double word push to the stack differently, this was a real difficult
	problem to track down and fix.  If during the FP instruction 
	"movfi   fr0,-(sp)" the stackpointer becomes invalid some PDP-11 CPUs
	handle the fault differently.  See 2.11BSD update #150 for the details.

	The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were
	explicitly FP (float or double).  Most C code was 'int' or 'char *'
	and no FP code was needed or used for that.

	FP instructions would be clustered together where the libc.a routines
	were loaded.  The 'ldiv' and 'lrem' routines would have several FP
	instructions close to each other but the rest of the program would
	have very few.  A program such as 'adb' would have a few FP instructions
	in the routines that display the FP registers.  Oh - there's a bug 
	dating back to V7 in adb.  The FP registers for a traced/running 
	process do not display correctly (using adb on a core file works fine).
	Fixed in 2.11 (see update #405) ;-)

	Steven Schultz


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From pete at dunnington.u-net.com  Mon May 11 06:47:11 1998
From: pete at dunnington.u-net.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:47:11 GMT
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms@moe.2bsd.com>
        "Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!" (May 10,  9:49)
References: <199805101649.JAA00593@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <9805102147.ZM8056@indy.dunnington.york.ac.uk>

On May 10,  9:49, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Subject: Re: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
>
> > From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at Update.UU.SE>
> > I wouldn't be *that* surprised by these results. For instance, I
believe
> > that longs are implemented with FP. And I wouldn't be surprised if a
few
> > FP ops were sneaked in to compute some stuff that aren't immediately
> > appearant.
>
> 	It is true that _some_ long arithmetic is done using FP.  The long
> 	divide is done that way (at least in 2BSD, I've not looked at V7
> 	yet) because it is much much less code to convert the operands to
> 	FP, do the divide, and then convert the result back (the
alternative
> 	is about two pages of code).

> 	The C compiler itself did NOT generate FP unless the operands were
> 	explicitly FP (float or double).  Most C code was 'int' or 'char *'
> 	and no FP code was needed or used for that.

That bears out what I disovered by accident yesterday -- looking at a 7th
Edition UK source distribution for 11/23's and other small machines.  The
READ_ME file lists the programs that have possible floating point problems,
or which might be too big using emulation.   I can't remember the details,
but the list had a few surprises.

Most of the C programs have very little FP, and that is mostly due to a
small number of library routines that include FP ops, but one or two
programs are exceptional.

For example, 'factor' has a lot of FP at the beginning, a chunk in the
middle, and a large subroutine near the end, which uses FP to compute
square roots using Newton's method.  factor is written in assembler, not C,
and has much more FP than other things I looked at, but several other
programs use a little.

-- 

Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Dept. of Computer Science
						University of York

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon May 11 08:58:57 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:58:57 +1000 (EST)
Subject: PUPS Mail List welcome + news
Message-ID: <199805102258.IAA02806@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

We've had a regular intake of new subscribers to the PUPS mailing list, so
I thought I'd say Welcome to all the newcomers. There are now 90 people on
the list, and the quantity of messages is increasing daily.

The mailing list is also available in a digest form, which is distributed
twice a week. If you would rather be on the digest list, send mail to
majordomo at minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au with the lines in the body of the mail:

	unsubscribe pups
	subscribe pups-digest

For more information about old UNIX, see the PUPS web pages at
http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS, and the FAQ in particular.

The most recent news is that both Bob Supnik and the Begemot team have
released new versions of their PDP-11 emulators. A further bug in Bob's
emulator was found by Steven Schultz, so we might see a patch to the
emulator coming out soon.

The PUPS volunteers have been hard at work burning and mailing out the
first batch of CDs containing the PUPS Archive, which is now about 520Megs
in size. We also have about 30 people with authorised access into the
on-line PUPS Archive.

Dion at SCO has promised another batch of new UNIX licenses, which I
should receive in the next few days. When I do, I'll post the details here.

That's all for now. Ciao,

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon May 11 09:41:19 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:41:19 +1000 (EST)
Subject: PUPS Mail List welcome + news
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.980510164539.6267A-100000@corinne.cpio.org> from "J. Joseph Max Katz" at "May 10, 98 04:47:31 pm"
Message-ID: <199805102341.JAA02987@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by J. Joseph Max Katz:
> Hi,
> 
> What's the latest on the 4BSD re-release that Marshal Kirk McKusick
> is doing?

I've sent the list of people interested to Kirk. He's still a bit vague,
but is looking at selling a 4-CD set of all the 4BSD releases for a
price around US$100. That's a ballpark number, and will depend on how many
people want the set: the more the cheaper it will be.

I haven't heard back from him for a week or so. Should I ask him what
he is planning?

Please, none of this is for public consumption just yet.

Cheers,
	Warren

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From Bob.Supnik at digital.com  Tue May 12 05:01:14 1998
From: Bob.Supnik at digital.com (Bob Supnik)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:01:14 -0400
Subject: vi bug found
Message-ID: <6B84B1FF221BD011B0AC08002BE6920671F48E@excmso.mso.dec.com>

For those who want vi to work before V2.3c is released, the problem is
in the divide instruction.  Look for:

		dst = src / src2;
		if ((dst >= 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) {

and change the second line to:

		if ((dst > 077777) || (dst < -0100000)) {

(Thanks to Steve Schultz for finding this.)

The magtape bootstrap is also broken, that will be fixed in V2.3c as
well.

/Bob Supnik

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From DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com  Tue May 12 10:55:24 1998
From: DSEAGRAV at toad.xkl.com (Daniel A. Seagraves)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:55:24 -0700
Subject: Just got my license from SCO...
Message-ID: <13354936165.17.DSEAGRAV@toad.xkl.com>

I'm number AU-31.
-------

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From edgee at cyberpass.net  Tue May 12 12:21:12 1998
From: edgee at cyberpass.net (Ed G.)
Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:21:12 -0400
Subject: Floating Point-The Results Are In!
In-Reply-To: <19980508194615.O12200@freebie.lemis.com>
References: <199805080414.AAA28438@renoir.op.net>; from Ed G. on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 12:14:03AM -0400
Message-ID: <199805120221.WAA16927@renoir.op.net>

> I don't know what the code above is intended to do, but it's not
> floating point.  At the very best, it would indicate the use of the
> floating point registers for straightforward data moves.  I stand by
> my assertion that tar doesn't use floating point, neither in the
> Seventh Edition nor elsewhere.

I agree:  tar doesn't *use* floating point.  

However, from what I can determine the floating point ops in tar are
not some weird way of moving data around, nor is floating point
being used to do long arithmetic as some have suggested.

Compare the first few tar floating point ops with a dummy program 
consisting of a single call to scanf:

tar, 106 floating point ops:

0:  SETD   ;170011 
20532:  STCFD F0,(R1)   ;176011 
20562:  STF F0,(R1)   ;174011 
22406:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22410:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22460:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22462:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
22620:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
22622:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
24124:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
24130:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
26616:  LDF F0,#56200   ;172427 056200 
26622:  STF F0,177732(R5)   ;174065 177732 
etc.

scanf, 106 floating point ops:

000000:  SETD   ;170011 
002764:  STCFD F0,(R1)   ;176011 
003014:  STF F0,(R1)   ;174011 
004346:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
004350:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
004420:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
004422:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
004560:  LDF F0,(R4)+   ;172424 
004562:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
004750:  LDF F0,4(R5)   ;172465 000004 
004754:  STF F0,-(SP)   ;174046 
006410:  LDF F0,#56200   ;172427 056200 
006414:  STF F0,177732(R5)   ;174065 177732 

So it would appear that whatever floating point there is in tar comes 
from library routines which have been linked in, but which tar does 
not use.

"When you hear hoofbeats, think horses, not zebras."

Ed

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu May 14 10:59:28 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:59:28 +1000 (EST)
Subject: More licenses from SCO
Message-ID: <199805140059.KAA08059@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu May 14 11:03:12 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:03:12 +1000 (EST)
Subject: More licenses from SCO
In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from Warren Toomey at "May 14, 98 10:59:28 am"
Message-ID: <199805140103.LAA08094@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Warren Toomey:
> I've received some more UNIX source licenses from SCO. The new licencees are:

I forgot to say: Dion gave me license number AU-0, at the behest of
the members of the PUPS mailing list. Thanks all!!
      Warren

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From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se  Mon May 18 19:54:06 1998
From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 11:54:06 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Exploited by spammers.
In-Reply-To: <199805140059.KAA08059@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980518114414.13620B-100000@lintilla2.df.lth.se>

Hi all!

I want to tell you all how sorry I am for spamming occuring from this site.
Due to several reasons it was possible to exploit the lintilla service 
machines.
We hope we have put an end to it now (it was not an easy task since it 
involved *cringe* beurocracy).

If anybody receives spams from lintilla.df.lth.se or lintilla2.df.lth.se 
from now on please let me know! It should not happen but....

The lintilla services machines does not approve to spam and we try to 
fight back as hard as we are able.

Internet used to be a happy place where people helped eachother and where
life was simple and good. Sometimes I long for those days now gone. =(
Today it seems that greed and abuse is the rule...

Again, sorry for the inconvenience that spamming from this site has caused!

Sincerely yours:
Lars Persson, the Lintilla services.

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From iking at killthewabbit.org  Tue May 19 12:50:09 1998
From: iking at killthewabbit.org (Ian King)
Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:50:09 -0700
Subject: Question regarding tape drive interface
Message-ID: <199805190148.SAA10957@forbin.killthewabbit.org>

OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this.....

I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* flavor of UNIX.  I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to interface with the PDP-11.  Reading between the lines of several pages on the Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required?  And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run?  Thanks in advance for any experience you can share!  
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case.  Coincidence?  
Ian King <iking at KillTheWabbit.org>  No opinions but my own.  So there.

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From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk  Wed May 20 05:33:00 1998
From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:33:00 +0100
Subject: Question regarding tape drive interface
In-Reply-To: <199805190148.SAA10957@forbin.killthewabbit.org>
Message-ID: <5Im5JEAs5dY1Ewa$@falstaf.demon.co.uk>

In message <199805190148.SAA10957 at forbin.killthewabbit.org>, Ian King
<iking at killthewabbit.org> writes
>OK, this may not be *exactly* the right place to ask this.....
>
>I'm in the process of acquiring a PDP-11/34, on which I intend to run *some* 
>flavor of UNIX.  I also have a Cipher F-880 tape drive, which I would like to 
>interface with the PDP-11.  Reading between the lines of several pages on the 
>Web, it seems it should be possible to do this, but which module is required?  
>And does that prescribe the version of UNIX I'll be able to run?  Thanks in 
>advance for any experience you can share!  
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>----------------------------------
>24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case.  Coincidence?  
>Ian King <iking at KillTheWabbit.org>  No opinions but my own.  So there.
Wotcher,
You'll need a UNIBUS TS11 card, I don't know the number for this but it
should be relatively easy to get hold of.  BSD2 certainly supports this.

Cheers

Robin
Robin Birch     robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk

M1ASU/2E0ARJ    Old computers and radios always welcome

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Fri May 29 13:12:02 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 13:12:02 +1000 (EST)
Subject: More UNIX Licenses
Message-ID: <199805290312.NAA01694@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

I've just received licenses from SCO for Don Cruickshank and Hartmut Brandt.
Congrats, you two!

Ciao,
	Warren

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