From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Feb  1 04:18:24 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:18:24 -0500
Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
Message-ID: <199801311818.AA26294@world.std.com>

<From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>

<The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with
<something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but
<useless except in a 'standalone' environment.  As a boot device they
<were just "slower than molasses in January".  As a data storage device

The tu58 also knows MRSP but the host still has to buffer a 128(plus 
wrapper) packet in one blast.  It's assumption is that the host has 
plenty of ram and a suitable buffer should be no problem at most data 
rates.  Call it a design error.  It's also something that has to be dealt 
with in all cases of serial communication.

As boot device, I used to take the average 750 console tape and rearrange 
it and on average cut the load time by 60% or more.  Seeks are slow being
30 seconds end to end.  The fewer the better also the ordder of files can 
make a difference.

I use it to boot a PDT11/130 and also an 11/23 in a BA11va (four slot 
box). and it's accept able IF the files are in the best order for access.


<I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work
<reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk.  The first
<time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to
<disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt.

I have some data and the problem was on the 11/44 console side.  It could 
not keep up with the 9600 baud data from the tu58.

<The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to
<something a bit better?  I would think so but don't know for sure)
<had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get
<the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips
<machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time.

I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the 
driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte.

<Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand
<interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600
<baud serial line I'd think.

they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes and the 550 it's 
either 16 or 32 bytes.  That's a whole lot of time before you must 
service it and then there is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind 
it.

<Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'.  An 11/44 is about .6 mips
<(an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a
<286.

No comparison.  My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k.
the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween.
In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus.

My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02)
are all lower priority.  Again there is no problem unless the system is 
real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not 
ack'd.

You don't need a lot of mips to recieve data at 9600 and put it in a 
buffer for later use.  Coding a routine to do it reliably is sometimes 
not as easy as it may look.  Also coding in HLL (even C) can add overhead 
not anticipated and slows execution. the problem in most PDP-11s is the 
serial buffer in ram is rarely 140 bytes (data plus wrapper) so that 1mS
you have then includes the whole file system and that takes a lot of mips
to keep up with.

<The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems
<all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4.  A disk
<interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough
<that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun.

That would do it.  Try using a DH or DZ interface as they have a silo
and can sustain higher rates.

<If it's not doing too much else.  I don't see an 11/xx handling high
<serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a
<kernel recompile is going on ;-)  If you're using a DHV-11 the
<data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are

Its byte timing.  the bits are handled at the uart.  But your right 
my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM.  

<that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is
<lower.  A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over
<9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to
<make its way to disk.

The serial TU58 however does not have hardware flow control though it can 
be hacked on to the board. (hint inhibit the TX empty interrupt to the 
8085.) FYI the PDT11/130 got around this by using a parallel interface 
tu58.  The parallel interfaced tu58 cannot send a byte until the receiving 
system take the last one.

At one time to prove a point I did do a hacked up tu58 with hardware 
flow control and a matching DLV card and ran it at 38.4, the performance 
was impressive even under heavy RSX11 loading.  DEC did not do this as it 
would be a major redesign/requal of the product.  They did know the 
problem well however.

The key is look at interupt latency.  PDP-11s are OK but when you add
something like burst mode DMA where the CPU can be off the buss 
effectively for significant periods of time there can be performance 
hits.

Allison


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From grog at lemis.com  Sun Feb  1 12:45:58 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +1030
Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
In-Reply-To: <199801311818.AA26294@world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500
References: <199801311818.AA26294@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <19980201131558.50751@lemis.com>

On Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote:
>> From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
>
>> The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to
>> something a bit better?  I would think so but don't know for sure)
>> had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get
>> the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips
>> machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time.
>
> I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the
> driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte.

Sure.  UNIX drivers have never been particularly optimized for high
async interrupt performance.

>> Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand
>> interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600
>> baud serial line I'd think.
>
> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes 

The 16540 has only one byte buffer.

> and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes.

The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes.

> That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there
> is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it.

That's more to the point.  Don't forget that a high-end Pentium is
probably 1000 times the speed of an 11/20.  I regularly get 50-60k
interrupts per second when downloading fonts to my PostScript printer,
and I think the printer is the limiting factor there.

>
>> Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'.  An 11/44 is about .6 mips
>> (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a
>> 286.
>
> No comparison.  My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k.
> the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween.
> In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus.
>
> My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02)
> are all lower priority.  Again there is no problem unless the system is
> real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not
> ack'd.

Have you modified the kernel?  Normally disks will preempt ttys.

> Its byte timing.  the bits are handled at the uart.  But your right
> my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM.

Ah.

Greg

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Feb  1 14:20:58 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:20:58 -0500
Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
Message-ID: <199802010420.AA07172@world.std.com>


<> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes 
<
<The 16540 has only one byte buffer.

Oops mixed it op with a compatable hybrid...

<
<> and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes.
<
<The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes.

Some fo the super integration chips (FDC, IDE, 2SIO and parallel) have 
extended that to 32.


<Have you modified the kernel?  Normally disks will preempt ttys.

This is RT-11 and RSTS and I don't have a UNIX on the q-buss -11s.
I could recompile RT but, Qbus, interrupt priority is based on position 
relative to the cpu, In mine its memory, serial io and then all the rest 
in order of decreasing speed.


Allison


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sun Feb  1 17:47:25 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Virtual PDP Tape - update
Message-ID: <199802010747.SAA12606@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	The virtual tape drive seems to be working fine. I've added RL
support, so you should be now able to install over a serial line to:

RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks.
RP03 disks.
RK05 disks.
RL01 and RL02 disks.

Other disk support would require hacking the V7 kernel sources.

I've back-ported uncompress to V7, and written a user-mode program to
read from the tape, so I'm hoping that once the basic root filesystem is
installed, you will be able to do:

	$ vtget /dev/tty1 5 | uncompress | tar vxf -

and pull over compressed tar images. That should speed things up.

I will consolidate the documentation, give it a damn good testing with
Ersatz 2.0 tomorrow, and then put the whole thing up for ftp at:

	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PDP-11/Vtserver

I haven't heard from many of those who were `dying' for something like this
last year. Hopefully someone will find it useful :-)

Cheers,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Feb  2 13:44:29 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST)
Subject: First Release of Virt Tape Software
Message-ID: <199802020344.OAA23220@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	Ok, the alpha-cut of the virtual tape drive for installing 7th
Edition UNIX onto PDP-11s is available at

	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver

It works for RK05s, but I'm getting a `panic: iinit' error for RL02s.
This indicates a bad kernel build for the RL02s, something I have to work on.
I cannot test the software for RP03/04/05/06 disks, but this should be
vanilla V7 and should work with no problems.

A couple of people emailed me and said that they would rather get 2.11BSD
(again on a PDP-11 with no tape drive). Steven, would you be prepared to
add support for the virtual tape drive into 2.11BSD? Only the boot/install
code would need to change.

Would anyone with RL02s & experience with V7 kernels help me fix the
RL02 problems?!!

Cheers all,

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Tue Feb  3 08:04:20 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Swedish PUPS
Message-ID: <199802022204.JAA24121@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Did I send this PDP message on to the list?

	Warren
----- Forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se -----

From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:38:52 +0100
Message-Id: <199801271338.OAA07788 at sylvester.>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: PUPS Membership

Hi PDP lovers!

My name is Lars Persson and I live in the south of Sweden.

I am collecting various flavors of PDP11 systems. Mainly Q-bus based ones.
Currently I have one system up running UNIX, namely an 11/23 with IDRIS.
IDRIS is roughly V6-ish, btw.
I also have in my collection a PDP11/73 with BSD 2.11 but this system is
currently suffereing from a defective boot sector on its RD54 and my TK25
has burned to cinders.. Can anybody help?

Other more or less workable systems are: 11/34, 11/03, 11/23s-/23PLUS, 
11/53, PRO-350, VT103 (the VT100 with a built in Qbus for LSI PDPs)
and also several VAXen (uVAX II, 11/730 and various VAX-stations).

In my collection I also have much litterature, manuals and engineering
drawings of PDP11s, spares, RL02 diskpacks, RK05 diskpacks, RX01/02 
floppies and much more. Happy to help anybody who needs it.

I have been fiddling with PDP11 computers for a considerable number
of years and I have also worked with UNIX and networking for a long long 
time. =)

Regards!
/Lars Persson, HARLOSA Computer Center
----- End of forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se -----

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Tue Feb  3 14:50:04 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Virtual Tape Server - RL02s work
Message-ID: <199802030450.PAA00421@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

For those who were after RL02 support in the PDP-11 virtual tape server, it
now works. Thanks also to John Holden for space-optimising the 1st stage
boot code -- much less to hand-toggle in now.

The next version is at:

	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver

Cheers,
	Warren

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From bob at wbs.net  Wed Feb 18 17:06:47 1998
From: bob at wbs.net (Bob Lash)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980217225152.6625A-100000@webchat2.wbs.net>

I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob
Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02
pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :)

Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. 
These worked exactly as billed.

If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. 
Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The 
part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type.

Best wishes,

Bob Lash
bob at wbs.net


 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 21:06:31 PST
From: Bob Armstrong <bob at poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us>
To: bob at wbs.net
Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+


Here are the instructions for booting System 7, just in case I forget
to tell you tomorrow:

  1) Be sure your terminal is set to 7 bits, even parity.

  2) Mount the pack, spin it up and hardware boot.  The unix boot program
will print an "@" almost immediately.  [This is really annoying, because
the 11/23 ODT also prompts with "@", so unless you expect this you'll think
that the machine has crashed!]

  3) Type "unix" and RETURN.  This is the kernel name, and when you are able
to build your own kernels you can type a different name.  If you make
any typos you'll have to reboot.  The boot pretends that you can try again
if you make a mistake, but don't believe it!

  3) Unix will say "mem = ..." and then "SINGLE USER LOGIN:".  Enter ^Z (not
^D!) to start time sharing.

  4) It will prompt for the date and time.  Note that the date doesn't give
you the opportunity to enter a year - the system will think it's 1997 until
you figure out how to change this (you didn't know that there'd be homework,
did you :-)

  5) You'll get a "login:" prompt.  The password to root is "pdp".

  6) You're on your own.  Have fun!

  Two more tips: if you aren't sure your hardware works, I recommend you
try your first boot with the pack write locked.  Unix will panic right
after it says "mem=..." with a write locked swap, but at least this way
you won't risk corrupting your pack until you're reasonably sure the
hardware works.

  Don't ever shut down the system without doing a couple of syncs first.
This is unix, after all, and you'll eventually trash your file system if
you shut down without syncing.

Bob


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu Feb 19 08:59:04 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980217225152.6625A-100000@webchat2.wbs.net> from Bob Lash at "Feb 17, 98 11:06:47 pm"
Message-ID: <199802182259.JAA09626@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Bob Lash:
> I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob
> Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02
> pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :)
> 
> Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. 
> These worked exactly as billed.
> 
> If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. 
> Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The 
> part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type.
> 
> Bob Lash
> bob at wbs.net

Glad to hear that PUPS is of some help. There isn't really any official
membership, though. If anybody joins the mailing list or signs the `I want
a src license' petition, then I count 'em as members :-)

On the source license front, Dion at SCO is still trying to push the legal
section into producing something. I mailed him last week but haven't heard
anything back. I've asked to establish some form of dialogue with the
nay-sayers, to try & address their concerns about a personal src license.

All this for a 20-year old piece of software!

This list tends to be quiet. What did you all get up to over Christmas,
and how are your PDP-11s going?! Did anybody ever get that tape from
George Colouris in England and read its contents?

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From rmsmith at csc.com  Thu Feb 19 13:14:50 1998
From: rmsmith at csc.com (Robert Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:14:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
In-Reply-To: <199802182259.JAA09626@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 19, 98 09:59:04 am
Message-ID: <m0y5MRm-000AOBC@csc.com>

Thanks for tweaking the list!
Holidays were great in the DC area (USA).  Weather was NICE.
Only problem is the weather has been so nice I have been working on
my cars instead of my 11s.
The 63 ford blew the heater coil/heat exchanger. mumble grumble.
The 67 buick is doing great - til yesterday on the way home from a 
little run.  Brakes are acting up.  Rain prevents getting at that in
the driveway.

With the rain, I have been playing with NetBSD on the vax!!
waiting for Linux!!
thanks!
bob

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From belfry at eudoramail.com  Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998
From: belfry at eudoramail.com (Michael Kraus)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700
Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11)
Message-ID: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>

G'day All...

In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.

I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).

Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
terminal and printer for it though).  (FYI I'm located in Sydney).

I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.

Anyone who can help, please let me know.



Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

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From djenner at halcyon.com  Fri Feb 20 03:46:10 1998
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:10 -0800
Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11)
References: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>
Message-ID: <34EC6FE2.56FC890@halcyon.com>

Michael,

You can get Venix (~V7/System III) for the Pro on the Internet at
ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix/

The README file there has instructions on how to get it all booted.
You need a PC that can write 1.2MB, 5.25in floppies.  There isn't any
networking support.

Hardware wise, you need the Pro equivalent of the PDP-11 DEQNA
and a transceiver.  ftp.update.uu.se also has all the DEC P/OS
software, which can do DECNET.

Dave

Michael Kraus wrote:
> 
> G'day All...
> 
> In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.
> 
> I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
> network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
> and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).
> 
> Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
> which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
> terminal and printer for it though).  (FYI I'm located in Sydney).
> 
> I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.
> 
> Anyone who can help, please let me know.
> 
> Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com
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From belfry at eudoramail.com  Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998
From: belfry at eudoramail.com (Michael Kraus)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700
Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11)
Message-ID: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>

G'day All...

In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.

I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).

Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
terminal and printer for it though).  (FYI I'm located in Sydney).

I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.

Anyone who can help, please let me know.



Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com


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From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se  Sun Feb 22 21:29:18 1998
From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:18 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware
In-Reply-To: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980222121612.9206B-100000@lintilla2.df.lth.se>

Hi gang!

Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd?
Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file.
Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and
then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it.
Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02.
Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to
put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk
to make it bootable?
IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it?
If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party?
IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen 
for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it.
Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =)
I got a glassfibre box that can take two RL02 packs and this could perhaps
be used to ship things in...

Comments anyone?

/Lars Persson, HARLOSA PD Computer Center

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Feb 23 07:44:14 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:14 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980222121612.9206B-100000@lintilla2.df.lth.se> from Beastly Wolf at "Feb 22, 98 12:29:18 pm"
Message-ID: <199802222144.IAA15297@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Beastly Wolf:
> Hi gang!
> 
> Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd?
> Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file.
> Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and
> then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it.
> Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02.
> Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to
> put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk
> to make it bootable?

I'm not a hardware guy, but I can't see any difficulties in doing this.
The RL02 disk images have everything (incl. boot blocks) to get UNIX going.

> IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it?
> If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party?

ONLY if the disk contains binaries ONLY. See the disk images that
Bob Supnik distributes with his emulator, and the SCO copyright notice at:

	http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt

> IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen 
> for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it.
> Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =)

Hopefully lots of people will take you up on this, Lars!!

Thanks,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Tue Feb 24 10:36:58 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST)
Subject: SCO PDP-11 License: closer
Message-ID: <199802240036.LAA17631@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	I've just received the next draft of the proposed PDP-11 UNIX Source
License from SCO. To me it looks good, and I'd be happy to sign it. I have
passed a copy over to Steven Schultz: his 2.11BSD work is a derivative which
could be affected by the license clauses.

I'll try to get permission to release the draft to this mailing list from SCO.
I've asked them how long it will take before licenses go on sale, once we've
agreed with the draft license terms.

More news as soon as I have it....

	Warren

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From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se  Tue Feb 24 18:05:36 1998
From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:36 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Project generate RL02.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980224085257.12101D-100000@lintilla2.df.lth.se>


Hi again gang!

It looks as if we can turn the binaries in PUPS's archive into hardware
with dd, as my theory went.
So I went forth and started to tinker a bit with my trusty old ULTRIX rig.
I run into some problems though and before starting to fiddle with them
myself, I thought I should ask out there if this is a known caveat.

Here goes:
My uVAX has an RQDX-3 controller, a controller for EAGLE disks, TQK50,
DQNA and some sort of line card (A DHV-11 I think).
I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and
snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system.
What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the
RL02 controller was the same.
Vector is set by some intricate mechanism automagically though.

Oh well, I maked the kernel and it booted fine. If found the hl device
BUT! It also said (twice!) that the hl device did not interrupt.

I do not have a drive connected though.
I tried both with and without external terminator on the drive connector.
No go. Same message.

I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kernel
will not operate as intended and boy are those GENERIC kernels good to have!

So here is the problem:
What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get the
darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the 
line?
Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers
laying about! =) ).

If nobody got answers to this my next experiment will be to take out the
DQNA and see if that helps. I am reluctant to fiddle to much with the
cards since the machine is installed in a non standard 19" CRAMMED FULL
kinda rack and is hard to service.

/Lars


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Feb 25 00:47:39 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:47:39 -0500
Subject: Project generate RL02.
Message-ID: <199802241447.AA20016@world.std.com>


<I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and

I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not 
usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane 
only!

RLV12 nominal CSR is 17774400, Vector 160
                           ^^
DEQNA nominal CSR is 17774440, Vector 120
                           ^^ 
I positioned the text to show how similar they are but not the same.

<snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system.
<What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the
<RL02 controller was the same.

No they are not.

<I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kerne

No need to.

<What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t
<darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the
<line?

likely yes, the drive must be connected.  Also recheck you haven't 
interrupted the bus grant sequence with the mix of quad wide and dual
wide cards.

<Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers
<laying about! =) ).

It is possible.

Allison


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From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca  Wed Feb 25 02:29:38 1998
From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Project generate RL02.
In-Reply-To: <199802241447.AA20016@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 24, 98 09:47:39 am
Message-ID: <9802241629.AA03005@alph02.triumf.ca>

> <I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and
> 
> I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not 
> usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane 
> only!

Actually, if you use an expansion BA23 it is possible to hook a
RLV11 set to a uVax.  Woe to the person that tries this, though, as there
are bad things in store when the system begins doing any Q-bus
transactions past the lower 248 Kbytes!  The 18-bit-ness of the
RLV11 is a very nasty form of 18-bit-ness, and not easily overcome
like, say, the RXV21.

> <What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t
> <darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the
> <line?
> 
> likely yes, the drive must be connected.

Certainly yes, if the Ultrix autoconfigure logic is anything like
2.11 BSD's was before I got fed up with it insisting that I have
my RL units #0 when booting.  To quote from 2.11BSD Patch #380:

Subject: RL driver update, setvbuf(3) arrives in 2BSD, rdist fix (#380)

Description:
	1) 'autoconfig' only recognizes the RL controller if drive 0
	   is connected to the system at boot time.

Repeat-by:
	1) Boot a system with multiple RL drives, but with drive
	   0 not present.  'autoconfig' will not see an interrupt
	   from the RL subsystem during its probe of drive 0, and as
	   a result the rl driver will not be attached.

Fix:
	1) Modify /sys/autoconfig/rlauto.c so it tests only for the
	   presence of the RL controller CSR, and doesn't wait for
	   an interrupt.  This is the same thing which is done in the TS11
	   probe routine because TS controllers can not be made to interrupt
	   reliably if a tape is not at the load point and the drive is not 
	   online.

Tim.

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Feb 25 08:17:42 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
Message-ID: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Feb 25 13:05:43 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802250258.SAA22923@rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Feb 24, 98 06:57:53 pm"
Message-ID: <199802250305.OAA23864@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Chris Drake:
> Not being a lawyer, it looks confusing but reasonable...
> A couple of questions, though:
> 
> 	- it looks to me like the $100 fee is a one-shot that covers more
> 	  than one CPU, as long as you specify them all at the outset.  Or
> 	  is this supposed to be a per-CPU fee?
> 
> 	- this also appears to be a fee for any or all of the versions of
> 	  the OS specified.  Or is this supposed to be a per-version fee?
> 
> 	 	- Chris Drake

I'm told by Dion that you nominate the CPUs on which the software will
be run. I have no idea how to nominate an emunated CPU. The one-off
fee covers ALL nominated versions AND all successor versions
(e.g the right to use PWB, AUSAM, 2BSD, System III etc.)

The licensee also specifies which are the authorised countries.
I hope/assume that I can specify my list of authorised countries as:

	All countries except Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China
	or any Group Q, S, W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1
	to Section 370 of the Export Administration Regulations issued by
	the U.S. Department of Commerce.

Hope this helps,

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Feb 25 13:08:53 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802250259.AA24622@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Feb 24, 98 09:59:00 pm"
Message-ID: <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Allison J Parent:
> Overall not bad.  The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the 
> media cost is not out of line.  Still VMS can be had for FREE and media 
> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US.  If the all up price were $100
> including machine readable media that would be something more 
> agreeable.
> 
> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for 
> that vversion on media?

I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest
to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
distribute the image with every license.

If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided
we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise.

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Feb 25 13:35:25 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: PDP-11 System III - copies?
Message-ID: <199802250335.OAA23908@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Looking at that license from SCO, we should be able to legally use System III.
Does anybody have a copy I can add to the archive?

Thanks,
	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Wed Feb 25 13:34:11 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:11 +1030
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 02:08:53PM +1100
References: <199802250259.AA24622@world.std.com> <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980225140411.14345@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wed, 25 February 1998 at 14:08:53 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Allison J Parent:
>> Overall not bad.  The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the
>> media cost is not out of line.  Still VMS can be had for FREE and media
>> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US.  If the all up price were $100
>> including machine readable media that would be something more
>> agreeable.
>>
>> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for
>> that vversion on media?
>
> I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
> is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest
> to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
> distribute the image with every license.

How many CDs are we looking at?  Maybe I can arrange something.

> If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided
> we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
> going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise.

Maybe you should point that out and change that to "notification".

Greg

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Feb 25 13:58:56 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST)
Subject: PDP-11 Applications
Message-ID: <199802250358.OAA24047@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Dear All,

	I'm just looking at my proposed CD image for PDP-11 systems, and
there's an empty directory called Applications, which can hold applications
written specifically for PDP-11 UNIX systems.

I haven't got anything to put in there! No, I do have a very old Usenix
tape from Jay Jaeger, dated Sept 1977.

Does anybody have anything that might go in here for v6, v7, 2BSD, PWB.
Alternatively, does anybody know where full archives of comp.sources.unix
are on the 'net??

If there's space, I'd like to have some things like this on the CD.

Ta,
	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Wed Feb 25 14:07:04 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030
Subject: Changing passwords with 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <19980225143704.65511@freebie.lemis.com>

I've just installed a 2.11BSD, and I'm having some funny problems.                                                      
Here's one; I'll make a separate message of the other.

I've added a new user with vipw.  When I try to change the password, I
get this:                                                               

login: root                                                        
Password:                                                       
Last login: Sat Aug  9 02:25:12 on console
2.11 BSD UNIX #7: Fri Aug 8 14:14:34 MET DST
[1] root--> passwd grog                                                
Changing password for grog.
New password:
Retype new password:                                                  
passwd: mkpasswd failed; password unchanged.                              
[2] root-->                                                            

If I run mkpasswd against /etc/master.passwd, it works fine.  But that
way I can't change my password.
  
Any ideas?                                                                 

Greg                                                                          

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Feb 25 22:05:50 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:05:50 -0500
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
Message-ID: <199802251205.AA07228@world.std.com>

<I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
<is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest

I find this distressing as putting up unix an my 11/73 is dependent on
availability of all the correct parts being available(drivers et al).

While I believe thre are versions that can be put on the machine I do 
not know enough to speculate how or what device requirements there would 
be.  What comes to mind, can it be configured to exploit the hardware?  
Or maybe the question should be is there a copy complete enough that has
all of the installion templates?

<to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
<distribute the image with every license.

That would make sense, readable under dos, linux?

<If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provide
<we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
<going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwi

Definately should be written notification for manageability at their end.

Allison


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu Feb 26 07:58:42 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:58:42 +1100 (EST)
Subject: System III (fwd)
Message-ID: <199802252158.IAA25252@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

----- Forwarded message from Alan Bain -----

>From afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk  Thu Feb 26 01:08:57 1998
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Bain <afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk>
X-Sender: afrb2 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk
Reply-To: Alan Bain <afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: System III
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980225140211.13155I-100000 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk>

I remember seeing this on the mailing list a while ago and wondered what
became of the Sys III (no that it's of any use to me with an 11/34!).
Hope you track down a copy....  I'm still looking for the pre AT&T V5
versions myself ... someone seems to have had a very early version here in
Cambridge UK but I can find out what became of it.  There may have even
been a PDP-7 running unix at one point here.  The CL are hopelessly
disorganised about such stuff -- it goes in the `old junk' category and
unfortunately they love to wipe tapes just in case they contain
proprietary software.  However I now have access to a half inch drive on a
sun (certainly 1600 & 6250 BPI, possibly more useful lower BPI also).  If
anyone in the UK has such tapes I'm most willing to try and read them.

Alan

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu Feb 26 08:12:16 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <34F446F9.E9AD729F@pa.dec.com> from Paul McJones at "Feb 25, 98 08:29:45 am"
Message-ID: <199802252212.JAA25371@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Paul McJones:
> Given that "Lions' Commentary on Unix : With Source Code" has been
> published as a book under normal copyright, all the focus on designated
> cpus and audits and such in this draft license seems very heavyweight to
> me.  Does SCO really believe someone is going to start with the 7th
> edition code and evolve it into a commercial offering competitive with
> SCO's latest?

No, what the legal guys have done is take the original v7 license and
alter it enough to keep us happy. This is why there are such hangovers
as designated CPUs. They probably did this to:

	+ minimise the work they had to do, and
	+ prevent a product being licensed under widely different systems

If they created a completely new license, there may be a legal slant:
e.g hey I own an original Western Electric v7 license, and now SCO's 
selling licenses which allow export of code to China (for example).
That's unfair, because my license prevents that. Sue, sue!!

[Maybe I'm just being paranoid here].

Anyway, the CPU restriction is BOGUS. SCO already have a binary license
for v5, v6 and v7 which allows you to run these systems on an UNLIMITED
number of CPUs. I can't see how they are going to enforce the CPU
restriction in the new license.

I think Dion suggested that auditing was probably not going to happen.
Mind you, don't hold him to that!

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu Feb 26 08:37:10 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
Message-ID: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Dion in SCO says:

   > What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd
   > be prepared to do this?

> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and
> free stuff programs to do this.  I was hoping you enthusiasts already
> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed.
> 
> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a
> filled out license form.  Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS
> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out
> how to service the new guy.  Would that work?

So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO
license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-)

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Feb 26 09:24:34 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:37:10AM +1100
References: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thu, 26 February 1998 at  9:37:10 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Dion in SCO says:
>
>> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd
>> be prepared to do this?
>
>> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and
>> free stuff programs to do this.  I was hoping you enthusiasts already
>> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed.
>>
>> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a
>> filled out license form.  Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS
>> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out
>> how to service the new guy.  Would that work?
>
> So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO
> license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-)

Don't say I didn't tell you.

I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
(what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.

Greg


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu Feb 26 09:35:25 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 26, 98 09:54:34 am"
Message-ID: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

> Don't say I didn't tell you.

Oh, I was expecting this.
 
> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
> period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
> and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
> (what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.

I'd like to see:

	+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
	+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
	+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels

in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Each can keep a
reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm hoping the CD-ROM
image won't change more than once a year.

As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably
via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd
need the volunteers to have PGP too.

If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc.
You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution.

We're going to have to work on this in the next few months.

Thanks for all your suggestions & volunteering!

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Feb 26 10:00:14 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:35:25AM +1100
References: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980226103014.06033@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 10:35:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
>> Don't say I didn't tell you.
>
> Oh, I was expecting this.
>
>> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
>> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
>> period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
>> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
>> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
>> and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
>> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
>> (what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
>
> I'd like to see:
>
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes

I can volunteer for this.  The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
(8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel
1600 bpi.

>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
>
> in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). 

Europe and UK separately, eh?

> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.

Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
a lost hope.  There have been three in the past two months alone.
That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go.  WORM
wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.

One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses
RockRidge format (UNIX long file names).  It would be a real pain to
be limited to DOS-style naming.

> As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably
> via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd
> need the volunteers to have PGP too.

Not a problem.

> If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc.
> You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution.

Seems reasonable.

Greg

--
Greg Lehey                       LEMIS
grog at lemis.com			 PO Box 460
Tel: +61-8-8388-8286		 Echunga SA 5153
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725		 Australia

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From rmsmith at csc.com  Thu Feb 26 10:36:25 1998
From: rmsmith at csc.com (Robert Smith)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:36:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802252212.JAA25371@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 26, 98 09:12:16 am
Message-ID: <m0y7rJJ-000AQJC@csc.com>

Warren,
and the rest of us!
Thanks!
Everyone who has commented has covered all the same ground that I would
with the license discussion!
I will take what I can get to be legal!
Thanks for all the work on this!!
bob


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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Fri Feb 27 01:57:39 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <199802261557.PAA13264@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk>

I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read
this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of
the 4BSD releases as well.  Of course all the recent ones are free
already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're
derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of
stuff from System V?).

I'd be quite interested in 4.2 and 4.3 as I have a machine that runs
4.2 (not a vax...).

I suspect that the 4BSD situation must be fairly well understood by
someone, since there were all these legal arguments a few years ago
when the various PC BSDs started appearing in a big way.

Does anyone know what the real story is?

--tim

-- 
Tim Bradshaw, System Manager,
	      Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute,
	      University of Edinburgh

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Fri Feb 27 06:23:30 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802261557.PAA13264@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "Feb 26, 98 03:57:39 pm"
Message-ID: <199802262023.HAA26835@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Tim Bradshaw:
> I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read
> this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of
> the 4BSD releases as well.  Of course all the recent ones are free
> already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're
> derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of
> stuff from System V?).

No, the successor systems are specified as 16-bit, and that excludes the
4BSD systems as they ran on the Vax.

Besides, UCB still owns these systems. Keith Bostic has mentioned that
a back-burner project is to get all the 4BSD releases onto CD-ROMs,
and make them available to people with licenses for 32V. He knows about
the new SCO licenses. Perhaps we can start encouraging him once we get
out licenses?!

P.S Why do you think I fought to get 32V covered by the SCO license?
    I wanted to be able to buy these 4BSD CD-ROMs!

	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Feb 28 05:07:40 1998
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
Message-ID: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com>

Howdy -

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> I can volunteer for this.  The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
> (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi.

	Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150?

	I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work
	at all.  The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves
	record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes).  I can 
	make TK25 tapes.

	I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at
	which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace
	it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)).

> > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
> > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
> 
> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
> a lost hope.  There have been three in the past two months alone.

	You've me to thank for that ;-)

> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go.  WORM
> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.

	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
	applied.

> One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses
> RockRidge format (UNIX long file names).  It would be a real pain to

	Of course!  There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that
	need help with long filenames or deep directories.

	Steven Schultz


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From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb 28 06:37:13 1998
From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:13 +0000
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <mBJJxWA5Py90EwEW@falstaf.demon.co.uk>

In message <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>> Don't say I didn't tell you.
>
>Oh, I was expecting this.
> 
>> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
>> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
>> period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
>> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
>> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
>> and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
>> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
>> (what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
>
>I'd like to see:
>
>       + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
>       + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
>       + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
>
Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of
anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73.

This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage
is reimbursed.

Robin

PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future.
Robin Birch     robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk

M1ASU           Old computers and radios always welcome

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From grog at lemis.com  Sat Feb 28 11:35:28 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:28 +1030
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:07:40AM -0800
References: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com>

On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Howdy -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
>>> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
>>> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
>>
>> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
>> a lost hope.  There have been three in the past two months alone.
>
> 	You've me to thank for that ;-)

Indeed.  Thanks.

>> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go.  WORM
>> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
>
> 	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
> 	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
> 	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
> 	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
> 	applied.

Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
to be up to date?

Greg

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From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca  Sat Feb 28 14:17:37 1998
From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 28, 98 12:05:28 pm
Message-ID: <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca>

> > 	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
> > 	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
> > 	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
> > 	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
> > 	applied.
> 
> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
> to be up to date?

You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.

What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?

Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr.  It all
barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus
-11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.

It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible.  I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? 

Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)

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From grog at lemis.com  Sat Feb 28 14:39:26 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca>; from Tim Shoppa on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 08:17:37PM -0800
References: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-ID: <19980228150926.00518@freebie.lemis.com>

On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> 	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
>>> 	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
>>> 	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
>>> 	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
>>> 	applied.
>>
>> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
>> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
>> to be up to date?
>
> You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
> he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.
>
> What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
> updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?

Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved,
it might be easier to burn WORMs.

Greg

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Feb 28 14:43:41 1998
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
Message-ID: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com>

Tim -

> What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
> updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?

	The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major
	projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find
	something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;)

> Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr.  It all
> barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and

	How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?  I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
	for my 11 - they're nice.  I don't like the DB25 style of cable
	that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
	rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.

> -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.

	Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
	with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
	the 11/73.  Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
	with the Emulex UC08.  For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
	appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
	the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).  
	The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
	at drives that don't do variable record mode.  Do the CMD adaptors
	do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?

> It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
> have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
> CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible.  I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will

	Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the 
	ISO9660 filesystem.  Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd
	media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading
	in popularity.

> boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? 
 
	It'll panic.  For a couple reasons:  pipes are implemented via
	the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
	needs a rw filesystem.  And a swap area is needed.  If there's
	memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
	argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
	swap space.  It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not
	clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.

	Steven


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From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca  Sat Feb 28 16:07:21 1998
From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm
Message-ID: <9802280607.AA30497@alph02.triumf.ca>

> > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr.  It all
> > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
> 
> 	How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?

On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just
under a megabyte per second.  In other words: damn fast.  (Fast
7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second).  Booting
from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54.  I posted some
benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago.

>  I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
> 	for my 11 - they're nice.  I don't like the DB25 style of cable
> 	that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
> 	rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.

That aren't all that rare.  You just have to go someplace other than
Fry's, that's all :-).

> > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.
> 
> 	Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
> 	with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
> 	the 11/73.  Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
> 	with the Emulex UC08.  For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
> 	appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
> 	the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).  
> 	The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
> 	at drives that don't do variable record mode.  Do the CMD adaptors
> 	do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?

The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size-
block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its
hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized
"virtual" blocks.  (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you
automagically.)

> > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
> > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible.  I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
> 
> 	Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the 
> 	ISO9660 filesystem.

That's OK.  The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like
4 512-byte blocks.  And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem;
if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone
CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down.  I've
built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way.

> > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? 
>  
> 	It'll panic.  For a couple reasons:  pipes are implemented via
> 	the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
> 	needs a rw filesystem.  And a swap area is needed.  If there's
> 	memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
> 	argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
> 	swap space.  It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk

RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by
using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:).

> but it's not
> 	clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.

It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-).  I find
the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're
a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart!

Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)


From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se  Sat Feb 28 22:55:25 1998
From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:55:25 +0100 (MET)
Subject: That RL02 blues.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980228130910.18727B-100000@lintilla2.df.lth.se>

Synopsis:
I am trying to install an RLV12 and an RL02 drive under ULTRIX so that I
can generate RL02 disks from the emulator software in the PUPS software 
library. The ultimate goal is to have a machine where one can copy bootable
systems to people who do not have any vintage UNIX but have the hardware.
However!
There sure is a great fat wall to bump into here....

First try was a uVAX-II that is a part of my collection of vintage
machines.
This rig runs Ultrix 4.2 (with updates).
Here is the system messages when booting the GENERIC kernel:

Loading (a) vmunix ...
sizes:
text = 719932
data = 116224
bss = 398512
starting at 0xc19
ULTRIX V4.2 (Rev. 96) System#1: Mon Feb 23 13:40:07 EST 1998
real mem  = 7335936
avail mem = 4779008
using 179 buffers containing 733184 bytes of memory.
MicroVAX-II with an fpu
Q22 bus
uda0 at uba0
uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17
vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv
hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt 
^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^
klesiu0 at uba0
uq6 at klesiu0 and so on.
The system then successfully loads uq16, dz0, ra0 and tms0.

This is what I did so far:
1) I made a system configuration file containing only the devices I got plus
hl0 (that is the RL02 driver).
Same effect as above.
2) To rule out that this was something in hardware I built an entire new
machine from scratch using spare parts. Not ONE thing was used from the
original system. I also installed ULTRIX 4.0 to be sure.
Guess what...
When booting the GENERIC kernel, the same thing occured.
During all test:
The RL02-drive(s) were spun up with a scratch disk in them.
On both systems they were set as drive 0 and had terminators.

*despair*

When trying to reach the disk by make-ing a file system on it, the system 
snorts at me telling me to go and fly a kite. Watch this:
# newfs /dev/rrl0a rl02
newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open to read partition table: No such device or 
address
newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open: No such device or address

However, the device files are in place. System just can not find the
board. =/

Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for
a good cause, okay? )

/Lars Persson




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From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Feb  1 04:18:24 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 13:18:24 -0500
Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
Message-ID: <199801311818.AA26294@world.std.com>

<From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>

<The TU58's lack of flow control (unless you were on the Vax-750 with
<something I believed was called the MRSP roms) made them all but
<useless except in a 'standalone' environment.  As a boot device they
<were just "slower than molasses in January".  As a data storage device

The tu58 also knows MRSP but the host still has to buffer a 128(plus 
wrapper) packet in one blast.  It's assumption is that the host has 
plenty of ram and a suitable buffer should be no problem at most data 
rates.  Call it a design error.  It's also something that has to be dealt 
with in all cases of serial communication.

As boot device, I used to take the average 750 console tape and rearrange 
it and on average cut the load time by 60% or more.  Seeks are slow being
30 seconds end to end.  The fewer the better also the ordder of files can 
make a difference.

I use it to boot a PDT11/130 and also an 11/23 in a BA11va (four slot 
box). and it's accept able IF the files are in the best order for access.


<I tried to use the TU58 on an 11/44 once and it just wouldn't work
<reliably when trying to transfer a file from TU58 to disk.  The first
<time the system had to tape a couple milliseconds to write a block to
<disk you had a DL11 overrun and the transfer was corrupt.

I have some data and the problem was on the 11/44 console side.  It could 
not keep up with the 9600 baud data from the tu58.

<The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to
<something a bit better?  I would think so but don't know for sure)
<had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get
<the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips
<machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time.

I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the 
driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte.

<Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand
<interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600
<baud serial line I'd think.

they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes and the 550 it's 
either 16 or 32 bytes.  That's a whole lot of time before you must 
service it and then there is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind 
it.

<Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'.  An 11/44 is about .6 mips
<(an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a
<286.

No comparison.  My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k.
the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween.
In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus.

My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02)
are all lower priority.  Again there is no problem unless the system is 
real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not 
ack'd.

You don't need a lot of mips to recieve data at 9600 and put it in a 
buffer for later use.  Coding a routine to do it reliably is sometimes 
not as easy as it may look.  Also coding in HLL (even C) can add overhead 
not anticipated and slows execution. the problem in most PDP-11s is the 
serial buffer in ram is rarely 140 bytes (data plus wrapper) so that 1mS
you have then includes the whole file system and that takes a lot of mips
to keep up with.

<The biggest problem I ran into was the fact that the disk systems
<all used SPL-5 while the serial ports (DL11,etc) were at 4.  A disk
<interrupt would (and did) come in and would delay things just enough
<that the DL running at 9600 with no flow control would overrun.

That would do it.  Try using a DH or DZ interface as they have a silo
and can sustain higher rates.

<If it's not doing too much else.  I don't see an 11/xx handling high
<serial line rates without some form of RTS/CTS flowcontrol while a
<kernel recompile is going on ;-)  If you're using a DHV-11 the
<data flow rate is quite a bit less than 38.4k - the bit timings are

Its byte timing.  the bits are handled at the uart.  But your right 
my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM.  

<that fast but the board can't handle it and the effective rate is
<lower.  A DHQ-11 is quite a bit better but all in all anything over
<9600 requires hardware flow control, especially if the data has to
<make its way to disk.

The serial TU58 however does not have hardware flow control though it can 
be hacked on to the board. (hint inhibit the TX empty interrupt to the 
8085.) FYI the PDT11/130 got around this by using a parallel interface 
tu58.  The parallel interfaced tu58 cannot send a byte until the receiving 
system take the last one.

At one time to prove a point I did do a hacked up tu58 with hardware 
flow control and a matching DLV card and ran it at 38.4, the performance 
was impressive even under heavy RSX11 loading.  DEC did not do this as it 
would be a major redesign/requal of the product.  They did know the 
problem well however.

The key is look at interupt latency.  PDP-11s are OK but when you add
something like burst mode DMA where the CPU can be off the buss 
effectively for significant periods of time there can be performance 
hits.

Allison


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From grog at lemis.com  Sun Feb  1 12:45:58 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 13:15:58 +1030
Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
In-Reply-To: <199801311818.AA26294@world.std.com>; from Allison J Parent on Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500
References: <199801311818.AA26294@world.std.com>
Message-ID: <19980201131558.50751@lemis.com>

On Sat, Jan 31, 1998 at 01:18:24PM -0500, Allison J Parent wrote:
>> From: "Steven M. Schultz" <sms at moe.2bsd.com>
>
>> The DL-11 to which the TU58 was attached (could it be hooked up to
>> something a bit better?  I would think so but don't know for sure)
>> had no buffering/silo - at 9600 there was only 1 millisecond to get
>> the character and that's cutting things a bit too fine on a ~.5 mips
>> machine, especially if other things are going on at the same time.
>
> I've run z80s/4mhz at 19.2k with no errors it's was the structure of the
> driver and a total level of hardware buffering of one byte.

Sure.  UNIX drivers have never been particularly optimized for high
async interrupt performance.

>> Ummm, 'PC's I'm used to don't seem terribly upset at 10 or 20 thousand
>> interrupts per second - that should be sufficient to handle any 9600
>> baud serial line I'd think.
>
> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes 

The 16540 has only one byte buffer.

> and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes.

The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes.

> That's a whole lot of time before you must service it and then there
> is the matter of a few dozen mips of cpu behind it.

That's more to the point.  Don't forget that a high-end Pentium is
probably 1000 times the speed of an 11/20.  I regularly get 50-60k
interrupts per second when downloading fonts to my PostScript printer,
and I think the printer is the limiting factor there.

>
>> Not 'overhead' as much as just 'slowness'.  An 11/44 is about .6 mips
>> (an 11/73 is about 15% less) - that's quite a bit less than even a
>> 286.
>
> No comparison.  My 11/23 runs just fine with the TU58 running at 38.4k.
> the difference is the 11/23 is not using a console processor inbetween.
> In that case the DLV11j is the higest priority in the bus.
>
> My 11/73 also uses the TU58 at 38.4 but the disks (RX02, RQDX3, RL02)
> are all lower priority.  Again there is no problem unless the system is
> real busy and then the tu58 will do rereads for blocks that were not
> ack'd.

Have you modified the kernel?  Normally disks will preempt ttys.

> Its byte timing.  the bits are handled at the uart.  But your right
> my systems are lightly loaded and generally run RT11FB or XM.

Ah.

Greg

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Sun Feb  1 14:20:58 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 23:20:58 -0500
Subject: Installing PDP-11 UNIX w. no tape - solution
Message-ID: <199802010420.AA07172@world.std.com>


<> they can only because the '450 has a silo of 4 bytes 
<
<The 16540 has only one byte buffer.

Oops mixed it op with a compatable hybrid...

<
<> and the 550 it's either 16 or 32 bytes.
<
<The 16550 has 4 bytes, and the 16650 has (I think) 16 bytes.

Some fo the super integration chips (FDC, IDE, 2SIO and parallel) have 
extended that to 32.


<Have you modified the kernel?  Normally disks will preempt ttys.

This is RT-11 and RSTS and I don't have a UNIX on the q-buss -11s.
I could recompile RT but, Qbus, interrupt priority is based on position 
relative to the cpu, In mine its memory, serial io and then all the rest 
in order of decreasing speed.


Allison


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Sun Feb  1 17:47:25 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 18:47:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Virtual PDP Tape - update
Message-ID: <199802010747.SAA12606@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	The virtual tape drive seems to be working fine. I've added RL
support, so you should be now able to install over a serial line to:

RP04, RP05 and RP06 disks.
RP03 disks.
RK05 disks.
RL01 and RL02 disks.

Other disk support would require hacking the V7 kernel sources.

I've back-ported uncompress to V7, and written a user-mode program to
read from the tape, so I'm hoping that once the basic root filesystem is
installed, you will be able to do:

	$ vtget /dev/tty1 5 | uncompress | tar vxf -

and pull over compressed tar images. That should speed things up.

I will consolidate the documentation, give it a damn good testing with
Ersatz 2.0 tomorrow, and then put the whole thing up for ftp at:

	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PDP-11/Vtserver

I haven't heard from many of those who were `dying' for something like this
last year. Hopefully someone will find it useful :-)

Cheers,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Feb  2 13:44:29 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 14:44:29 +1100 (EST)
Subject: First Release of Virt Tape Software
Message-ID: <199802020344.OAA23220@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	Ok, the alpha-cut of the virtual tape drive for installing 7th
Edition UNIX onto PDP-11s is available at

	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver

It works for RK05s, but I'm getting a `panic: iinit' error for RL02s.
This indicates a bad kernel build for the RL02s, something I have to work on.
I cannot test the software for RP03/04/05/06 disks, but this should be
vanilla V7 and should work with no problems.

A couple of people emailed me and said that they would rather get 2.11BSD
(again on a PDP-11 with no tape drive). Steven, would you be prepared to
add support for the virtual tape drive into 2.11BSD? Only the boot/install
code would need to change.

Would anyone with RL02s & experience with V7 kernels help me fix the
RL02 problems?!!

Cheers all,

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Tue Feb  3 08:04:20 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 09:04:20 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Swedish PUPS
Message-ID: <199802022204.JAA24121@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Did I send this PDP message on to the list?

	Warren
----- Forwarded message from beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se -----

From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se
Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:38:52 +0100
Message-Id: <199801271338.OAA07788 at sylvester.>
To: wkt at cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: PUPS Membership

Hi PDP lovers!

My name is Lars Persson and I live in the south of Sweden.

I am collecting various flavors of PDP11 systems. Mainly Q-bus based ones.
Currently I have one system up running UNIX, namely an 11/23 with IDRIS.
IDRIS is roughly V6-ish, btw.
I also have in my collection a PDP11/73 with BSD 2.11 but this system is
currently suffereing from a defective boot sector on its RD54 and my TK25
has burned to cinders.. Can anybody help?

Other more or less workable systems are: 11/34, 11/03, 11/23s-/23PLUS, 
11/53, PRO-350, VT103 (the VT100 with a built in Qbus for LSI PDPs)
and also several VAXen (uVAX II, 11/730 and various VAX-stations).

In my collection I also have much litterature, manuals and engineering
drawings of PDP11s, spares, RL02 diskpacks, RK05 diskpacks, RX01/02 
floppies and much more. Happy to help anybody who needs it.

I have been fiddling with PDP11 computers for a considerable number
of years and I have also worked with UNIX and networking for a long long 
time. =)

Regards!
/Lars Persson, HARLOSA Computer Center
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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Tue Feb  3 14:50:04 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 15:50:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Virtual Tape Server - RL02s work
Message-ID: <199802030450.PAA00421@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

For those who were after RL02 support in the PDP-11 virtual tape server, it
now works. Thanks also to John Holden for space-optimising the 1st stage
boot code -- much less to hand-toggle in now.

The next version is at:

	ftp://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver

Cheers,
	Warren

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From bob at wbs.net  Wed Feb 18 17:06:47 1998
From: bob at wbs.net (Bob Lash)
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 23:06:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980217225152.6625A-100000@webchat2.wbs.net>

I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob
Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02
pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :)

Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. 
These worked exactly as billed.

If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. 
Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The 
part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type.

Best wishes,

Bob Lash
bob at wbs.net


 ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 98 21:06:31 PST
From: Bob Armstrong <bob at poco-adagio.santa-clara.ca.us>
To: bob at wbs.net
Subject: RE: V7 on a PDP-11/23+


Here are the instructions for booting System 7, just in case I forget
to tell you tomorrow:

  1) Be sure your terminal is set to 7 bits, even parity.

  2) Mount the pack, spin it up and hardware boot.  The unix boot program
will print an "@" almost immediately.  [This is really annoying, because
the 11/23 ODT also prompts with "@", so unless you expect this you'll think
that the machine has crashed!]

  3) Type "unix" and RETURN.  This is the kernel name, and when you are able
to build your own kernels you can type a different name.  If you make
any typos you'll have to reboot.  The boot pretends that you can try again
if you make a mistake, but don't believe it!

  3) Unix will say "mem = ..." and then "SINGLE USER LOGIN:".  Enter ^Z (not
^D!) to start time sharing.

  4) It will prompt for the date and time.  Note that the date doesn't give
you the opportunity to enter a year - the system will think it's 1997 until
you figure out how to change this (you didn't know that there'd be homework,
did you :-)

  5) You'll get a "login:" prompt.  The password to root is "pdp".

  6) You're on your own.  Have fun!

  Two more tips: if you aren't sure your hardware works, I recommend you
try your first boot with the pack write locked.  Unix will panic right
after it says "mem=..." with a write locked swap, but at least this way
you won't risk corrupting your pack until you're reasonably sure the
hardware works.

  Don't ever shut down the system without doing a couple of syncs first.
This is unix, after all, and you'll eventually trash your file system if
you shut down without syncing.

Bob


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu Feb 19 08:59:04 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:59:04 +1100 (EST)
Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.91.980217225152.6625A-100000@webchat2.wbs.net> from Bob Lash at "Feb 17, 98 11:06:47 pm"
Message-ID: <199802182259.JAA09626@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Bob Lash:
> I wanted to express my gratitude to PUPS, and especially PUPS member Bob
> Armstrong, who transferred a copy of Seventh Edition UNIX onto an RL02
> pack which worked immediately on my PDP-11/23+ ! :)
> 
> Below is a copy of booting instructions that Bob provided for the 11/23+. 
> These worked exactly as billed.
> 
> If anyone needs some spare RL02 incandescent bulbs, I have a few on hand. 
> Also, they are still availabe from Digikey at http://www.digikey.com. The 
> part is a "CM 73" bulb, which is a T1 3/4 14V wedge base type.
> 
> Bob Lash
> bob at wbs.net

Glad to hear that PUPS is of some help. There isn't really any official
membership, though. If anybody joins the mailing list or signs the `I want
a src license' petition, then I count 'em as members :-)

On the source license front, Dion at SCO is still trying to push the legal
section into producing something. I mailed him last week but haven't heard
anything back. I've asked to establish some form of dialogue with the
nay-sayers, to try & address their concerns about a personal src license.

All this for a 20-year old piece of software!

This list tends to be quiet. What did you all get up to over Christmas,
and how are your PDP-11s going?! Did anybody ever get that tape from
George Colouris in England and read its contents?

Cheers all,
	Warren

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From rmsmith at csc.com  Thu Feb 19 13:14:50 1998
From: rmsmith at csc.com (Robert Smith)
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:14:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: V7 on a PDP-11/23+
In-Reply-To: <199802182259.JAA09626@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 19, 98 09:59:04 am
Message-ID: <m0y5MRm-000AOBC@csc.com>

Thanks for tweaking the list!
Holidays were great in the DC area (USA).  Weather was NICE.
Only problem is the weather has been so nice I have been working on
my cars instead of my 11s.
The 63 ford blew the heater coil/heat exchanger. mumble grumble.
The 67 buick is doing great - til yesterday on the way home from a 
little run.  Brakes are acting up.  Rain prevents getting at that in
the driveway.

With the rain, I have been playing with NetBSD on the vax!!
waiting for Linux!!
thanks!
bob

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From belfry at eudoramail.com  Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998
From: belfry at eudoramail.com (Michael Kraus)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700
Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11)
Message-ID: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>

G'day All...

In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.

I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).

Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
terminal and printer for it though).  (FYI I'm located in Sydney).

I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.

Anyone who can help, please let me know.



Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com

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From djenner at halcyon.com  Fri Feb 20 03:46:10 1998
From: djenner at halcyon.com (David C. Jenner)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:46:10 -0800
Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11)
References: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>
Message-ID: <34EC6FE2.56FC890@halcyon.com>

Michael,

You can get Venix (~V7/System III) for the Pro on the Internet at
ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/professional/venix/

The README file there has instructions on how to get it all booted.
You need a PC that can write 1.2MB, 5.25in floppies.  There isn't any
networking support.

Hardware wise, you need the Pro equivalent of the PDP-11 DEQNA
and a transceiver.  ftp.update.uu.se also has all the DEC P/OS
software, which can do DECNET.

Dave

Michael Kraus wrote:
> 
> G'day All...
> 
> In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.
> 
> I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
> network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
> and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).
> 
> Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
> which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
> terminal and printer for it though).  (FYI I'm located in Sydney).
> 
> I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.
> 
> Anyone who can help, please let me know.
> 
> Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com
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From belfry at eudoramail.com  Thu Feb 19 18:33:02 1998
From: belfry at eudoramail.com (Michael Kraus)
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:33:02 -0700
Subject: DEC PRO 350 (PDP-11)
Message-ID: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>

G'day All...

In my possesion is a Digital Professional 350 machine.

I'm undecided as to try to find a ethernet card for it and use it in my own local
network (it needs a thicknet ethernet card - don't know where to find one for it,
and I'll also need a thicknet to thinnet converter).

Alternatively, I think maybe somebody else may be able to put it to better use (in
which case, I'll happily give it to you if you pick it up - I don't know about the
terminal and printer for it though).  (FYI I'm located in Sydney).

I've been planning to get unix 6 for it for ages, but hasn't eventuated yet.

Anyone who can help, please let me know.



Join 18 million Eudora users by signing up for a free Eudora Web-Mail account at http://www.eudoramail.com


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From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se  Sun Feb 22 21:29:18 1998
From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:29:18 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware
In-Reply-To: <CCIJPIMKANLKEBAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980222121612.9206B-100000@lintilla2.df.lth.se>

Hi gang!

Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd?
Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file.
Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and
then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it.
Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02.
Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to
put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk
to make it bootable?
IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it?
If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party?
IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen 
for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it.
Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =)
I got a glassfibre box that can take two RL02 packs and this could perhaps
be used to ship things in...

Comments anyone?

/Lars Persson, HARLOSA PD Computer Center

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Mon Feb 23 07:44:14 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 08:44:14 +1100 (EST)
Subject: Putting that UNIX on hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980222121612.9206B-100000@lintilla2.df.lth.se> from Beastly Wolf at "Feb 22, 98 12:29:18 pm"
Message-ID: <199802222144.IAA15297@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Beastly Wolf:
> Hi gang!
> 
> Would it be possible to generate RL02's from an ULTRIX uVAX with dd?
> Like, we have bootable systems for the emulator on file.
> Now suppose I recompile one of my ULTRIXen to recognize RL02 and
> then transfer that emulator UNIX filesystem file to it.
> Using dd I should be able to put the system on an RL02.
> Would that RL02 be bootable in a PDP11 system or do I need to
> put on some sort of boot information on a secret sector of the disk
> to make it bootable?

I'm not a hardware guy, but I can't see any difficulties in doing this.
The RL02 disk images have everything (incl. boot blocks) to get UNIX going.

> IF it is bootable, is it legal to do it?
> If it is legal, is it legal to distribute that RL02 to a third party?

ONLY if the disk contains binaries ONLY. See the disk images that
Bob Supnik distributes with his emulator, and the SCO copyright notice at:

	http://minnie.cs.adfa.oz.au/PUPS/Licenses/v7_bin_license.txt

> IF it is possible AND legal I might be able to manufacture some RL02 UNIXen 
> for you out there who got a PDP11 system but lack something to run on it.
> Provided you pay the expense for shipping, of course. =)

Hopefully lots of people will take you up on this, Lars!!

Thanks,
	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Tue Feb 24 10:36:58 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:36:58 +1100 (EST)
Subject: SCO PDP-11 License: closer
Message-ID: <199802240036.LAA17631@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

All,
	I've just received the next draft of the proposed PDP-11 UNIX Source
License from SCO. To me it looks good, and I'd be happy to sign it. I have
passed a copy over to Steven Schultz: his 2.11BSD work is a derivative which
could be affected by the license clauses.

I'll try to get permission to release the draft to this mailing list from SCO.
I've asked them how long it will take before licenses go on sale, once we've
agreed with the draft license terms.

More news as soon as I have it....

	Warren

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From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se  Tue Feb 24 18:05:36 1998
From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:05:36 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Project generate RL02.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980224085257.12101D-100000@lintilla2.df.lth.se>


Hi again gang!

It looks as if we can turn the binaries in PUPS's archive into hardware
with dd, as my theory went.
So I went forth and started to tinker a bit with my trusty old ULTRIX rig.
I run into some problems though and before starting to fiddle with them
myself, I thought I should ask out there if this is a known caveat.

Here goes:
My uVAX has an RQDX-3 controller, a controller for EAGLE disks, TQK50,
DQNA and some sort of line card (A DHV-11 I think).
I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and
snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system.
What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the
RL02 controller was the same.
Vector is set by some intricate mechanism automagically though.

Oh well, I maked the kernel and it booted fine. If found the hl device
BUT! It also said (twice!) that the hl device did not interrupt.

I do not have a drive connected though.
I tried both with and without external terminator on the drive connector.
No go. Same message.

I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kernel
will not operate as intended and boy are those GENERIC kernels good to have!

So here is the problem:
What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get the
darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the 
line?
Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers
laying about! =) ).

If nobody got answers to this my next experiment will be to take out the
DQNA and see if that helps. I am reluctant to fiddle to much with the
cards since the machine is installed in a non standard 19" CRAMMED FULL
kinda rack and is hard to service.

/Lars


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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Feb 25 00:47:39 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 09:47:39 -0500
Subject: Project generate RL02.
Message-ID: <199802241447.AA20016@world.std.com>


<I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and

I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not 
usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane 
only!

RLV12 nominal CSR is 17774400, Vector 160
                           ^^
DEQNA nominal CSR is 17774440, Vector 120
                           ^^ 
I positioned the text to show how similar they are but not the same.

<snipped some rows from the GENERIC file to make a good system.
<What struck me as if upon my head was that the CSR for the DQNA and the
<RL02 controller was the same.

No they are not.

<I am reluctant to put cards on non standard CSRs since the GENERIC kerne

No need to.

<What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t
<darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the
<line?

likely yes, the drive must be connected.  Also recheck you haven't 
interrupted the bus grant sequence with the mix of quad wide and dual
wide cards.

<Or could the controller be bad? (Not to worry! I got more controllers
<laying about! =) ).

It is possible.

Allison


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From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca  Wed Feb 25 02:29:38 1998
From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:29:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Project generate RL02.
In-Reply-To: <199802241447.AA20016@world.std.com> from "Allison J Parent" at Feb 24, 98 09:47:39 am
Message-ID: <9802241629.AA03005@alph02.triumf.ca>

> <I added an RLV-controller for those RL02 drives into the system and
> 
> I take it that is the rlv12 controller as the rlv11 twoboard set is not 
> usable. The rlv11 (m8014/8014) must be plugged into a h9273 backplane 
> only!

Actually, if you use an expansion BA23 it is possible to hook a
RLV11 set to a uVax.  Woe to the person that tries this, though, as there
are bad things in store when the system begins doing any Q-bus
transactions past the lower 248 Kbytes!  The 18-bit-ness of the
RLV11 is a very nasty form of 18-bit-ness, and not easily overcome
like, say, the RXV21.

> <What the heck is happening? Do I need to have the RL02 connected to get t
> <darn thing to interrupt or do I have a CSR / Interrupt conflict along the
> <line?
> 
> likely yes, the drive must be connected.

Certainly yes, if the Ultrix autoconfigure logic is anything like
2.11 BSD's was before I got fed up with it insisting that I have
my RL units #0 when booting.  To quote from 2.11BSD Patch #380:

Subject: RL driver update, setvbuf(3) arrives in 2BSD, rdist fix (#380)

Description:
	1) 'autoconfig' only recognizes the RL controller if drive 0
	   is connected to the system at boot time.

Repeat-by:
	1) Boot a system with multiple RL drives, but with drive
	   0 not present.  'autoconfig' will not see an interrupt
	   from the RL subsystem during its probe of drive 0, and as
	   a result the rl driver will not be attached.

Fix:
	1) Modify /sys/autoconfig/rlauto.c so it tests only for the
	   presence of the RL controller CSR, and doesn't wait for
	   an interrupt.  This is the same thing which is done in the TS11
	   probe routine because TS controllers can not be made to interrupt
	   reliably if a tape is not at the load point and the drive is not 
	   online.

Tim.

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Feb 25 08:17:42 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:17:42 +1100 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
Message-ID: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Feb 25 13:05:43 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:05:43 +1100 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802250258.SAA22923@rainbow.Corp.Sun.COM> from Chris Drake at "Feb 24, 98 06:57:53 pm"
Message-ID: <199802250305.OAA23864@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Chris Drake:
> Not being a lawyer, it looks confusing but reasonable...
> A couple of questions, though:
> 
> 	- it looks to me like the $100 fee is a one-shot that covers more
> 	  than one CPU, as long as you specify them all at the outset.  Or
> 	  is this supposed to be a per-CPU fee?
> 
> 	- this also appears to be a fee for any or all of the versions of
> 	  the OS specified.  Or is this supposed to be a per-version fee?
> 
> 	 	- Chris Drake

I'm told by Dion that you nominate the CPUs on which the software will
be run. I have no idea how to nominate an emunated CPU. The one-off
fee covers ALL nominated versions AND all successor versions
(e.g the right to use PWB, AUSAM, 2BSD, System III etc.)

The licensee also specifies which are the authorised countries.
I hope/assume that I can specify my list of authorised countries as:

	All countries except Afghanistan, the People's Republic of China
	or any Group Q, S, W, Y or Z country specified in Supplement No. 1
	to Section 370 of the Export Administration Regulations issued by
	the U.S. Department of Commerce.

Hope this helps,

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Feb 25 13:08:53 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:08:53 +1100 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802250259.AA24622@world.std.com> from Allison J Parent at "Feb 24, 98 09:59:00 pm"
Message-ID: <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Allison J Parent:
> Overall not bad.  The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the 
> media cost is not out of line.  Still VMS can be had for FREE and media 
> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US.  If the all up price were $100
> including machine readable media that would be something more 
> agreeable.
> 
> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for 
> that vversion on media?

I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest
to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
distribute the image with every license.

If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided
we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise.

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Feb 25 13:35:25 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:35:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: PDP-11 System III - copies?
Message-ID: <199802250335.OAA23908@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Looking at that license from SCO, we should be able to legally use System III.
Does anybody have a copy I can add to the archive?

Thanks,
	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Wed Feb 25 13:34:11 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:04:11 +1030
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Wed, Feb 25, 1998 at 02:08:53PM +1100
References: <199802250259.AA24622@world.std.com> <199802250308.OAA23877@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980225140411.14345@freebie.lemis.com>

On Wed, 25 February 1998 at 14:08:53 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> In article by Allison J Parent:
>> Overall not bad.  The price of $100US is not unresonable assuming the
>> media cost is not out of line.  Still VMS can be had for FREE and media
>> (limited to CDrom only) is $30US.  If the all up price were $100
>> including machine readable media that would be something more
>> agreeable.
>>
>> What is open is what version would they provide and at what cost for
>> that vversion on media?
>
> I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
> is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest
> to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
> distribute the image with every license.

How many CDs are we looking at?  Maybe I can arrange something.

> If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provided
> we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
> going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwise.

Maybe you should point that out and change that to "notification".

Greg

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Wed Feb 25 13:58:56 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:58:56 +1100 (EST)
Subject: PDP-11 Applications
Message-ID: <199802250358.OAA24047@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Dear All,

	I'm just looking at my proposed CD image for PDP-11 systems, and
there's an empty directory called Applications, which can hold applications
written specifically for PDP-11 UNIX systems.

I haven't got anything to put in there! No, I do have a very old Usenix
tape from Jay Jaeger, dated Sept 1977.

Does anybody have anything that might go in here for v6, v7, 2BSD, PWB.
Alternatively, does anybody know where full archives of comp.sources.unix
are on the 'net??

If there's space, I'd like to have some things like this on the CD.

Ta,
	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Wed Feb 25 14:07:04 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:37:04 +1030
Subject: Changing passwords with 2.11BSD
Message-ID: <19980225143704.65511@freebie.lemis.com>

I've just installed a 2.11BSD, and I'm having some funny problems.                                                      
Here's one; I'll make a separate message of the other.

I've added a new user with vipw.  When I try to change the password, I
get this:                                                               

login: root                                                        
Password:                                                       
Last login: Sat Aug  9 02:25:12 on console
2.11 BSD UNIX #7: Fri Aug 8 14:14:34 MET DST
[1] root--> passwd grog                                                
Changing password for grog.
New password:
Retype new password:                                                  
passwd: mkpasswd failed; password unchanged.                              
[2] root-->                                                            

If I run mkpasswd against /etc/master.passwd, it works fine.  But that
way I can't change my password.
  
Any ideas?                                                                 

Greg                                                                          

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From allisonp at world.std.com  Wed Feb 25 22:05:50 1998
From: allisonp at world.std.com (Allison J Parent)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 07:05:50 -0500
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
Message-ID: <199802251205.AA07228@world.std.com>

<I expect that the cost will initially cover NO media. From what Dion
<is saying, SCO doesn't even have copies of these systems! I will suggest

I find this distressing as putting up unix an my 11/73 is dependent on
availability of all the correct parts being available(drivers et al).

While I believe thre are versions that can be put on the machine I do 
not know enough to speculate how or what device requirements there would 
be.  What comes to mind, can it be configured to exploit the hardware?  
Or maybe the question should be is there a copy complete enough that has
all of the installion templates?

<to them that, if we can put together a CD-ROM image, perhaps they can
<distribute the image with every license.

That would make sense, readable under dos, linux?

<If not, the license allows us to exchange copies of the systems, provide
<we get written authorisation from SCO. The licensing people there are
<going to get awfully sick of me asking for written authorisation, otherwi

Definately should be written notification for manageability at their end.

Allison


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu Feb 26 07:58:42 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:58:42 +1100 (EST)
Subject: System III (fwd)
Message-ID: <199802252158.IAA25252@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

----- Forwarded message from Alan Bain -----

>From afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk  Thu Feb 26 01:08:57 1998
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:07:03 +0000 (GMT)
From: Alan Bain <afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk>
X-Sender: afrb2 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk
Reply-To: Alan Bain <afrb2 at hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au
Subject: System III
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.95q.980225140211.13155I-100000 at red.csi.cam.ac.uk>

I remember seeing this on the mailing list a while ago and wondered what
became of the Sys III (no that it's of any use to me with an 11/34!).
Hope you track down a copy....  I'm still looking for the pre AT&T V5
versions myself ... someone seems to have had a very early version here in
Cambridge UK but I can find out what became of it.  There may have even
been a PDP-7 running unix at one point here.  The CL are hopelessly
disorganised about such stuff -- it goes in the `old junk' category and
unfortunately they love to wipe tapes just in case they contain
proprietary software.  However I now have access to a half inch drive on a
sun (certainly 1600 & 6250 BPI, possibly more useful lower BPI also).  If
anyone in the UK has such tapes I'm most willing to try and read them.

Alan

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu Feb 26 08:12:16 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:12:16 +1100 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <34F446F9.E9AD729F@pa.dec.com> from Paul McJones at "Feb 25, 98 08:29:45 am"
Message-ID: <199802252212.JAA25371@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Paul McJones:
> Given that "Lions' Commentary on Unix : With Source Code" has been
> published as a book under normal copyright, all the focus on designated
> cpus and audits and such in this draft license seems very heavyweight to
> me.  Does SCO really believe someone is going to start with the 7th
> edition code and evolve it into a commercial offering competitive with
> SCO's latest?

No, what the legal guys have done is take the original v7 license and
alter it enough to keep us happy. This is why there are such hangovers
as designated CPUs. They probably did this to:

	+ minimise the work they had to do, and
	+ prevent a product being licensed under widely different systems

If they created a completely new license, there may be a legal slant:
e.g hey I own an original Western Electric v7 license, and now SCO's 
selling licenses which allow export of code to China (for example).
That's unfair, because my license prevents that. Sue, sue!!

[Maybe I'm just being paranoid here].

Anyway, the CPU restriction is BOGUS. SCO already have a binary license
for v5, v6 and v7 which allows you to run these systems on an UNLIMITED
number of CPUs. I can't see how they are going to enforce the CPU
restriction in the new license.

I think Dion suggested that auditing was probably not going to happen.
Mind you, don't hold him to that!

	Warren

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu Feb 26 08:37:10 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:37:10 +1100 (EST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
Message-ID: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

Dion in SCO says:

   > What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd
   > be prepared to do this?

> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and
> free stuff programs to do this.  I was hoping you enthusiasts already
> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed.
> 
> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a
> filled out license form.  Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS
> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out
> how to service the new guy.  Would that work?

So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO
license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-)

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Feb 26 09:24:34 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:54:34 +1030
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 09:37:10AM +1100
References: <199802252237.JAA25560@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thu, 26 February 1998 at  9:37:10 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
> Dion in SCO says:
>
>> What about SCO including a CD-ROM with each license. Do you think they'd
>> be prepared to do this?
>
>> Well... hmmm... we are not really staffed in the legal dept and
>> free stuff programs to do this.  I was hoping you enthusiasts already
>> have all the code and can share it among yourselves as needed.
>>
>> E.g. if a new player wants the stuff, they send us $100 and a
>> filled out license form.  Then we notify you (or notify the PUPS
>> society) that this person is licensed, and you guys figure out
>> how to service the new guy.  Would that work?
>
> So it looks like we're going to be cutting our own media. At least the SCO
> license allows us to charge for copying and distribution :-)

Don't say I didn't tell you.

I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
(what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.

Greg


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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Thu Feb 26 09:35:25 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:35:25 +1100 (EST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 26, 98 09:54:34 am"
Message-ID: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

> Don't say I didn't tell you.

Oh, I was expecting this.
 
> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
> period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
> and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
> (what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.

I'd like to see:

	+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
	+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
	+ a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels

in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). Each can keep a
reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm hoping the CD-ROM
image won't change more than once a year.

As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably
via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd
need the volunteers to have PGP too.

If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc.
You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution.

We're going to have to work on this in the next few months.

Thanks for all your suggestions & volunteering!

	Warren

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From grog at lemis.com  Thu Feb 26 10:00:14 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:30:14 +1030
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>; from Warren Toomey on Thu, Feb 26, 1998 at 10:35:25AM +1100
References: <19980226095434.51853@freebie.lemis.com> <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <19980226103014.06033@freebie.lemis.com>

On Thu, 26 February 1998 at 10:35:25 +1100, Warren Toomey wrote:
>> Don't say I didn't tell you.
>
> Oh, I was expecting this.
>
>> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
>> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
>> period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
>> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
>> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
>> and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
>> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
>> (what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
>
> I'd like to see:
>
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes

I can volunteer for this.  The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
(8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel
1600 bpi.

>> a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
>
> in several countries (Australia, U.K, USA, Europe). 

Europe and UK separately, eh?

> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.

Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
a lost hope.  There have been three in the past two months alone.
That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go.  WORM
wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.

One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses
RockRidge format (UNIX long file names).  It would be a real pain to
be limited to DOS-style naming.

> As you saw, Dion would send us details of new license owners, probably
> via PGP-signed email. I'd like to pass the info on PGP-signed, so I'd
> need the volunteers to have PGP too.

Not a problem.

> If we have a FAQ, we can list the people to ask for tapes, CD-ROMs etc.
> You are allowed to charge for copying and distribution.

Seems reasonable.

Greg

--
Greg Lehey                       LEMIS
grog at lemis.com			 PO Box 460
Tel: +61-8-8388-8286		 Echunga SA 5153
Fax: +61-8-8388-8725		 Australia

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From rmsmith at csc.com  Thu Feb 26 10:36:25 1998
From: rmsmith at csc.com (Robert Smith)
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 19:36:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802252212.JAA25371@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> from "Warren Toomey" at Feb 26, 98 09:12:16 am
Message-ID: <m0y7rJJ-000AQJC@csc.com>

Warren,
and the rest of us!
Thanks!
Everyone who has commented has covered all the same ground that I would
with the license discussion!
I will take what I can get to be legal!
Thanks for all the work on this!!
bob


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From tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk  Fri Feb 27 01:57:39 1998
From: tfb at aiai.ed.ac.uk (Tim Bradshaw)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:57:39 GMT
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
References: <199802242217.JAA22990@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <199802261557.PAA13264@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk>

I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read
this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of
the 4BSD releases as well.  Of course all the recent ones are free
already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're
derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of
stuff from System V?).

I'd be quite interested in 4.2 and 4.3 as I have a machine that runs
4.2 (not a vax...).

I suspect that the 4BSD situation must be fairly well understood by
someone, since there were all these legal arguments a few years ago
when the various PC BSDs started appearing in a big way.

Does anyone know what the real story is?

--tim

-- 
Tim Bradshaw, System Manager,
	      Artificial Intelligence Applications Institute,
	      University of Edinburgh

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From wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au  Fri Feb 27 06:23:30 1998
From: wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au (Warren Toomey)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 07:23:30 +1100 (EST)
Subject: DRAFT of license for ancient UNIX sources
In-Reply-To: <199802261557.PAA13264@dubh.aiai.ed.ac.uk> from Tim Bradshaw at "Feb 26, 98 03:57:39 pm"
Message-ID: <199802262023.HAA26835@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>

In article by Tim Bradshaw:
> I've been skipping a lot of the discussion about this, but if I read
> this license correctly it seems to cover the SCO-owned bits of most of
> the 4BSD releases as well.  Of course all the recent ones are free
> already, but I don't think that things like 4.2 are, and they're
> derived from 32V I think, (or is there held to be an admixture of
> stuff from System V?).

No, the successor systems are specified as 16-bit, and that excludes the
4BSD systems as they ran on the Vax.

Besides, UCB still owns these systems. Keith Bostic has mentioned that
a back-burner project is to get all the 4BSD releases onto CD-ROMs,
and make them available to people with licenses for 32V. He knows about
the new SCO licenses. Perhaps we can start encouraging him once we get
out licenses?!

P.S Why do you think I fought to get 32V covered by the SCO license?
    I wanted to be able to buy these 4BSD CD-ROMs!

	Warren

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Feb 28 05:07:40 1998
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 11:07:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
Message-ID: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com>

Howdy -

> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
> I can volunteer for this.  The formats are: QIC-150, DDS, Exabyte 8500
> (8200 if people can tell me how to do it on an 8500), and open reel 1600 bpi.

	Are there any UNIBUS/Qbus controllers that can deal with QIC-150?

	I tried putting a Wangtek 5150ES on a Emulex UC08 and it didn't work
	at all.  The only 'QIC' format I've seen work (and which preserves
	record boundaries) is the TK25 (uses the DC600A tapes).  I can 
	make TK25 tapes.

	I can also make 6250bpi 9-track until the tapedrive wears out (at
	which point I'm unlikely to sink the rather high $$$ to repair/replace
	it - 4mm drives are a lot cheaper ;-)).

> > Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
> > hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
> 
> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
> a lost hope.  There have been three in the past two months alone.

	You've me to thank for that ;-)

> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go.  WORM
> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.

	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
	applied.

> One thing in that connection: please make sure that any CD-ROM uses
> RockRidge format (UNIX long file names).  It would be a real pain to

	Of course!  There will be .MAP files to assist those systems that
	need help with long filenames or deep directories.

	Steven Schultz


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From robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk  Sat Feb 28 06:37:13 1998
From: robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk (Robin Birch)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:37:13 +0000
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802252335.KAA25775@henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>
Message-ID: <mBJJxWA5Py90EwEW@falstaf.demon.co.uk>

In message <199802252335.KAA25775 at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au>, Warren Toomey
<wkt at henry.cs.adfa.oz.au> writes
>> Don't say I didn't tell you.
>
>Oh, I was expecting this.
> 
>> I wonder if it's worth doing CD-ROMs for a few hundred people.
>> Initially you might sell 200, but then the rest would come over a
>> period of time, during which there would be updates.  In addition, the
>> CD-ROM format isn't ideal for everybody: many would like it on tape.
>> I'd suggest that somebody cut WORMs for those who want it on CD-ROM,
>> and tapes for those who want it on tape.  I can offer a variety of
>> tape formats, including (soon, hopefully) whatever a TS05 can write
>> (what's that?  1600bpi?), but not WORMs.
>
>I'd like to see:
>
>       + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut CD-ROMs
>       + a number of volunteers who are prepared to cut tapes
>       + a number of volunteers who are prepared to build kernels
>
Can do TK50, Exabyte, 0.25 SCSI cassette and will build kernels of
anything that I can safely get up on my 11/73.

This will be for UK distrib although I'll send anywhere if the postage
is reimbursed.

Robin

PS, I may be able to do TS05 in the future.
Robin Birch     robin at falstaf.demon.co.uk

M1ASU           Old computers and radios always welcome

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From grog at lemis.com  Sat Feb 28 11:35:28 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 12:05:28 +1030
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com>; from Steven M. Schultz on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 11:07:40AM -0800
References: <199802271907.LAA25828@moe.2bsd.com>
Message-ID: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com>

On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 11:07:40 -0800, Steven M. Schultz wrote:
> Howdy -
>
>> From: Greg Lehey <grog at lemis.com>
>>> Each can keep a reserve of distribution media as they wish. I'm
>>> hoping the CD-ROM image won't change more than once a year.
>>
>> Looking at the number of patches to 2.11BSD alone, I'd say that that's
>> a lost hope.  There have been three in the past two months alone.
>
> 	You've me to thank for that ;-)

Indeed.  Thanks.

>> That's one of the reasons I don't think CD-ROM is the way to go.  WORM
>> wouldn't have this deficiency if they were cut on demand.
>
> 	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
> 	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
> 	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
> 	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
> 	applied.

Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
to be up to date?

Greg

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From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca  Sat Feb 28 14:17:37 1998
From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 28, 98 12:05:28 pm
Message-ID: <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca>

> > 	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
> > 	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
> > 	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
> > 	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
> > 	applied.
> 
> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
> to be up to date?

You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.

What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?

Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr.  It all
barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
it's a hell of a lot more convenient for installs on Unibus and Q-bus
-11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.

It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible.  I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? 

Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)

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From grog at lemis.com  Sat Feb 28 14:39:26 1998
From: grog at lemis.com (Greg Lehey)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 15:09:26 +1030
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca>; from Tim Shoppa on Fri, Feb 27, 1998 at 08:17:37PM -0800
References: <19980228120528.31861@freebie.lemis.com> <9802280417.AA20644@alph02.triumf.ca>
Message-ID: <19980228150926.00518@freebie.lemis.com>

On Fri, 27 February 1998 at 20:17:37 -0800, Tim Shoppa wrote:
>>> 	I think a CD is a good way to go - it can be used as the 'baseline'.
>>> 	The updates to 2.11 are publically available via FTP at either
>>> 	FTP.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM or MOE.2BSD.COM.  Once a system is loaded from CD
>>> 	then only those patches later than the CD need to be retrieved and
>>> 	applied.
>>
>> Well, yes, but what are the economics of making a couple of hundred
>> CD-ROMs and then having to download possibly years of additional stuff
>> to be up to date?
>
> You might remember Ralph Cramden, from the _Honeymooners_, claiming that
> he was going to wait for 3-D TV before he bought one.
>
> What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
> updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?

Well, no, I had made a suggestion that, with the quantities involved,
it might be easier to burn WORMs.

Greg

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From sms at moe.2bsd.com  Sat Feb 28 14:43:41 1998
From: sms at moe.2bsd.com (Steven M. Schultz)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:43:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
Message-ID: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com>

Tim -

> What are you going to do - wait until Steven dies (I swear he'll be releasing
> updates to 2BSD for the rest of his life) before making a CD?

	The pace is slowing down due to lack of copious free time for major
	projects but yeah, i kinda figure every couple months I'll find
	something that needs fixing/tweeking/etc ;)

> Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr.  It all
> barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and

	How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?  I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
	for my 11 - they're nice.  I don't like the DB25 style of cable
	that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
	rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.

> -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.

	Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
	with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
	the 11/73.  Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
	with the Emulex UC08.  For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
	appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
	the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).  
	The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
	at drives that don't do variable record mode.  Do the CMD adaptors
	do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?

> It's also worth pointing out that on the Q-bus SCSI host adapters that I
> have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
> CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible.  I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will

	Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the 
	ISO9660 filesystem.  Now a MO drive that used 512 byte sector'd
	media should work just fine - but that style of drive is fading
	in popularity.

> boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? 
 
	It'll panic.  For a couple reasons:  pipes are implemented via
	the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
	needs a rw filesystem.  And a swap area is needed.  If there's
	memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
	argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
	swap space.  It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk but it's not
	clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.

	Steven


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From shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca  Sat Feb 28 16:07:21 1998
From: shoppa at alph02.triumf.ca (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:07:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CD-ROM from SCO unlikely
In-Reply-To: <199802280443.UAA00780@moe.2bsd.com> from "Steven M. Schultz" at Feb 27, 98 08:43:41 pm
Message-ID: <9802280607.AA30497@alph02.triumf.ca>

> > Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago I made a nice bootable Iomega ZIP
> > cartridge with the current 2.11 generic kernel and everything in /usr.  It all
> > barely fits in the 100 Mbytes (well, 3*65536*512 bytes) available, and
> 
> 	How "speedy" is a ZIP drive?

On my Andromeda SCDC, the effective transfer rate to the Q-bus is just
under a megabyte per second.  In other words: damn fast.  (Fast
7200 RPM SCSI-II hard drives will get 1.5-2 Mbyte second).  Booting
from ZIP is far, far faster than booting from a RD54.  I posted some
benchmarks to vmsnet.pdp-11 two months or so ago.

>  I keep threatening to get a JAZ drive
> 	for my 11 - they're nice.  I don't like the DB25 style of cable
> 	that the normal external ZIP drive uses so I'd have to find one of the
> 	rare internal ZIP drives and stuff it into a traditional shoebox.

That aren't all that rare.  You just have to go someplace other than
Fry's, that's all :-).

> > -11's with SCSI host adapters than the traditional tape distribution.
> 
> 	Tape's good for backups though, so when I don't feel like putting up
> 	with the racket of the 9-track I just cable up the 4mm drive to
> 	the 11/73.  Alas, the QIC style of drives don't work, at least not
> 	with the Emulex UC08.  For a brief moment the Seagate Tapestore 8000
> 	appeared to work but then the whole system/controller hung (I suspect
> 	the UC08 doesn't know how to deal with more modern tape drives).  
> 	The older QIC (Wangtek-5150ES) doesn't work at all - the UC08 barfs
> 	at drives that don't do variable record mode.  Do the CMD adaptors
> 	do any better with "PC" style SCSI tape devices?

The problem is that most QIC devices are commonly operated in fixed-size-
block mode, something that TMSCP doesn't really grok well unless its
hidden under a layer that hides this and allows for variable-sized
"virtual" blocks.  (Your TK25 takes care of all of this for you
automagically.)

> > have - the CMD CQD440, the Emulex UC08, and the Andromeda SCDC - bootable
> > CD-ROM distributions are entirely possible.  I'm not sure if 2.11BSD will
> 
> 	Uh, 2.11 doesn't know how to deal with 2048 byte sectors or the 
> 	ISO9660 filesystem.

That's OK.  The MSCP controllers make each 2048 byte sector look like
4 512-byte blocks.  And you don't need to lay down a ISO9660 filesystem;
if you throw away the idiotic software that comes with the PC-clone
CD-ROM writers, you can put any filesystem you like down.  I've
built bootable RT-11 CD-ROM's this way.

> > boot from a read-only device - Steven, have you tried this? 
>  
> 	It'll panic.  For a couple reasons:  pipes are implemented via
> 	the filesystem rather than sockets so anything involving pipes
> 	needs a rw filesystem.  And a swap area is needed.  If there's
> 	memory available there won't be any actual swapping going on but
> 	argument gathering, etc during an 'exec' can use a small amount of
> 	swap space.  It might be possible to use a 'ram' disk

RT-11 also wants a writable swap file, and this is indeed provided by
using a RAM disk (i.e. VM:).

> but it's not
> 	clear to me it'd be worth the trouble.

It depends on how convenient you find installation from CD-ROM :-).  I find
the bootable ZIP disk very convenient for "recovery media", and they're
a whole lot easier to fit in my shirt pocket than a RL02 cart!

Tim. (shoppa at triumf.ca)


From beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se  Sat Feb 28 22:55:25 1998
From: beast at lintilla2.df.lth.se (Beastly Wolf)
Date: Sat, 28 Feb 1998 13:55:25 +0100 (MET)
Subject: That RL02 blues.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.980228130910.18727B-100000@lintilla2.df.lth.se>

Synopsis:
I am trying to install an RLV12 and an RL02 drive under ULTRIX so that I
can generate RL02 disks from the emulator software in the PUPS software 
library. The ultimate goal is to have a machine where one can copy bootable
systems to people who do not have any vintage UNIX but have the hardware.
However!
There sure is a great fat wall to bump into here....

First try was a uVAX-II that is a part of my collection of vintage
machines.
This rig runs Ultrix 4.2 (with updates).
Here is the system messages when booting the GENERIC kernel:

Loading (a) vmunix ...
sizes:
text = 719932
data = 116224
bss = 398512
starting at 0xc19
ULTRIX V4.2 (Rev. 96) System#1: Mon Feb 23 13:40:07 EST 1998
real mem  = 7335936
avail mem = 4779008
using 179 buffers containing 733184 bytes of memory.
MicroVAX-II with an fpu
Q22 bus
uda0 at uba0
uq0 at uda0 csr 172150 vec 774 ipl 17
vvv****The RL02 driver!***vvv
hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt
hl0 at uba0 csr 174400 didn't interrupt 
^^^***(Observe! Twice! The darn thing at least pretends to try..)***^^^
klesiu0 at uba0
uq6 at klesiu0 and so on.
The system then successfully loads uq16, dz0, ra0 and tms0.

This is what I did so far:
1) I made a system configuration file containing only the devices I got plus
hl0 (that is the RL02 driver).
Same effect as above.
2) To rule out that this was something in hardware I built an entire new
machine from scratch using spare parts. Not ONE thing was used from the
original system. I also installed ULTRIX 4.0 to be sure.
Guess what...
When booting the GENERIC kernel, the same thing occured.
During all test:
The RL02-drive(s) were spun up with a scratch disk in them.
On both systems they were set as drive 0 and had terminators.

*despair*

When trying to reach the disk by make-ing a file system on it, the system 
snorts at me telling me to go and fly a kite. Watch this:
# newfs /dev/rrl0a rl02
newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open to read partition table: No such device or 
address
newfs: /dev/rrl0a: cannot open: No such device or address

However, the device files are in place. System just can not find the
board. =/

Any clue anybody? (I know that this is tedious for you all but it is for
a good cause, okay? )

/Lars Persson




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