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Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 19:20:17 GMT
From: hexis@netcom.com (James C. Harrison)
Subject: Re: Linguistic Sources (was Re: 666 which was: Re: The Bible Code)


Adam Hough (adamh@spots.ab.ca) wrote:
: On 3 Jul 1997 21:13:46 GMT Ray Depew wrote about "Re: 666 (was: Re: The Bible Code)" in alt.folklore.computers:

: > : In soc.culture.jewish on 2 Jul 1997 22:13:47 GMT wcw@math.psu.edu
: > 
: > : Since I have a bigger audience I will tell you how when I was 11 I
: > : first learned the Hebrew word for alphabet   which is aleph-bais after
: > : the first two letters of the Hebrew alphabet.  I thought it was a
: > : silly juvenile word, equivalent to the children's term ABC's.  It was
: > : more than 10 years later that it dawned on me where the English word
: > : 'alphabet' came from.... And I know from asking that many others still
: > : haven't noticed it.

: I'd always assumed it came from "alpha beta" which are the first two
: letters of the Greek alphabet. However since both languages (as far as
: I know) come from the same source in the Indian subcontinent (my
: memory fails as to the proper name :)) you're close enough that it
: doesn't matter!

Greek is an Indoeuropean language related to but not derived from Sanskrit
and other Indian languages. The language of the Phoenicians was very
similar to Hebrew and belongs to the Semitic language group that also
includes Arabic and many languages in North East Africa. It has been
conjectured that the Indoeuropean and Semitic language families are
distantly related, but that's highly debatable. The deep differences 
between Indoeuropean and Semetic languages are not.

The Greeks picked up the Phoenician names for the letters when they 
adopted the alphabet. Alpha and Beta are just translitterations of Aleph 
and Beth. They aren't derived from Greek words at all. Incidentally, the 
Greeks knew perfectly well that they had adapted their alphabet from the 
Phoenician alphabet. "These Phoenicians brought to Greece various matters 
of learning and, very notably, the alphabet, which in my opinion had not 
been known to the Greeks before." (Heroditus 5.58) The Greek word for 
letters, in fact, was phoinikeia, "Phoenician things."

hexis

: --
:                        Regards

: Adam Hough (adamh@spots.ab.ca) | Is it a bird? A plane?
: http://www.spots.ab.ca/~adamh  | No, it's a new posting


From clive@on-the-train.demon.co.uk Tue Jul  8 16:57:11 1997
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From: "Clive D.W. Feather" <clive@on-the-train.demon.co.uk>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.math,comp.misc,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.jewish,talk.religion
Subject: Re: Linguistic Sources (was Re: 666 which was: Re: The Bible Code)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 19:25:33 +0100
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In article <33BEF91B.882@hamilton.edu>, Rick Decker
<rdecker@hamilton.edu> writes
>Question: What is the earliest known instance of a list of words
>or names in alphabetical order?  Does the instance substantially
>antedate the development of the underlying alphabet?

Argh: this comes up at a time that I'm nowhere near home.

It's mentioned in _The_Codebreakers_; from memory, it's in the 14th (L)
century.

Clive "disordered" Feather

-- 
Clive D.W. Feather    | Director of Software Development  | Home email:
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Written on my laptop; please observe the Reply-To address |


From dimmick@ccsu.edu Tue Jul  8 16:57:44 1997
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From: "Charles Wm. Dimmick" <dimmick@ccsu.edu>
Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.math,comp.misc,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.jewish,talk.religion
Subject: Re: Linguistic Sources (was Re: 666 which was: Re: The Bible Code)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 1997 14:26:06 -0400
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Clive D.W. Feather wrote:
>  Rick Decker <rdecker@hamilton.edu> writes
> >Question: What is the earliest known instance of a list of words
> >or names in alphabetical order?  Does the instance substantially
> >antedate the development of the underlying alphabet?
>
> It's mentioned in _The_Codebreakers_; from memory, it's in the 14th (L)
> century.

Immediately coming to mind is Psalm 119.  Also there is at least one
ostracon from ca. 10th century BC (or BCE if you prefer) which has
a copy of the paleosemitic alphabet, possibly some student's practice
slate. I seem to remember there being several of these found, some
with writing left to right, and some with writing right to left.

Charles Wm. "not to be confused with Ostracod" Dimmick

"...and some rin up hill and down dale, knapping the chucky stanes
to pieces wi' hammers like sae mony road-makers run daft -- They say
it is to see how the warld was made!"


From meirman@erols.com Tue Jul  8 16:58:21 1997
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Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban,rec.org.mensa,sci.skeptic,sci.math,comp.misc,alt.folklore.science,alt.folklore.computers,soc.culture.jewish,talk.religion
Subject: Re: Linguistic Sources (was Re: 666 which was: Re: The Bible Code)
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In soc.culture.jewish on Sat, 05 Jul 1997 21:47:09 -0400 Rick Decker
<rdecker@hamilton.edu> posted:

>James C. Harrison wrote:
>> 
>>

>Good, now let me stray slightly afield.  A language with an 
>ordered alphabet (as opposed, say, to a pictorial language) carries 
>with it the possibility of arranging words in alphabetical order.  As 
>natural as extending the letter order to an ordering on words may appear 
>to us today, it's not an immediately obvious consequence of having an 
>ordered alphabet.

I see your point.

>Question: What is the earliest known instance of a list of words
>or names in alphabetical order? 

The 34th Psalm, described as a Psalm of David, has its verses in
alephbetical order, although this only shows in Hebrew.  (There is one
line of a header and a final verse at the end that are not included.)
I am no scholar but this would be 2500-3000 years ago.
There may be other psalms but I stopped looking.

> Does the instance substantially
>antedate the development of the underlying alphabet?

You mean verbally there was such a list. I don't understand, but I am
sure this makes sense. How could it be in alphabetical order if the
alphabet hadn't been developed yet?  The letters existed but they
hadn't been assigned an order.  The order was taken from the list you
have in mind?  If this happened it could easily have been lost to
history.
>Regards,

>Rick 

>-----------------------------------------------------
>Rick Decker                   rdecker@hamilton.edu
>Department of Comp. Sci.      315-859-4785
>Hamilton College
>Clinton, NY  13323            =  !=  ==  (!)
>-----------------------------------------------------

P&M

meirman@erols.com

I miss many posts so please e-mail
if you want me to see your answer.

   B'tsedek tishpot amitecho 
  Lev 19:15 via Mishna Avos
You shall judge your neighbor
          favorably.


