Discussion on Point-of-Sale (POS) terminals, those many-tentacled devices
of cash registers and retail transactions.

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.misc, comp.terminals,
    comp.os.linux.development.apps
References: <cee672a2.0208161601.1b61244@posting.google.com>
Message-ID: <ak293f$m8n$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
Organization: Open 4 Success
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 21:53:20 -0400
From: Rex Ballard <rballard@open4success.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for Electronic Point Of Sale and Inventory Control System

On 2002-08-16, "***" (Lee) <apexx@softhome.net> wrote:
>
> Hi !
> 
> I am looking for open-sourced Electronic Point Of Sale (E-POS) and
> Inventory Control systems.

Contact Caldera - they have an excellent set of packages, including 
the ability to create custom cash registers and the ability to 
integrate scanners and scanner-enabled PDAs directly to Linux.

Other companies such as IBM have support for Larger inventory 
systems.

Typically, a POS system needs to be customized in a number of ways.
There are legal issues such as what is taxable and what isn't, 
correlation of UPC to inventory, and integrating with purchasing 
and CRM systems.


> There used to be some projects existed which that ran on Linux,
> like Simple Simon [ http://www.thinkingapps.com/simon.html ]
> but it seems that the project no longer exists.
> 
> If anyone knows of any POS or Inventory Control system that runs
> on Linux, and is open sourced, please tell me.
> 
> Thank you !
> 
> I am thinking of starting a home-brew conversion program and
> convert older, not-so-powerful, not-so-fancy PCs into POS systems,
> and sell them at a low-price point so that Small And Medium
> Enterprises may benefit from it.


It's certainly not a new or unexplored option.  On the other hand, 
this is typically a highly specialized technology and isn't as 
simple as it looks.  Creating a simple cash register using a 
standard PC is pretty simple, it can even be done with trivial web 
browsers.  On the other hand, most OEMs need other capabilities 
such as UPC code scanners, credit card approval systems, and 
security systems.  There are issues of taxation, and compliance.

In the case of franchises, there are also issues of compliance with 
corporate standards, and also compliance with regulatory agencies 
including the SEC, IRS, PUC, state tax, and for some vendors, AFDC, 
WIC, and other assistance programs.

Even relatively simple sole-proprietorships generally require 
interfaces to Bank, Tax, and Vendor systems.


> Current POS terminals in the market are selling at about five (5)
> to twenty (20) times the price of an equivalent PC, which I think
> is excessive, and we all know about the passing of the COST OF
> DOING BUSINESS down stream to the consumers.

Again, this depends on the amount of customization required.  With 
a fast-food franchise like McDonalds or Burger King, Caldera (with 
it's purchase of the SCO service organization) provides custom 
systems designed to integrate with the Kitchen, home office 
inventory and purchase systems, and more recently, the credit card 
systems.


> If I can find open-sourced programs, and implement them in
> low-cost ( and very secured ) POS ( plus Inventory Control systems
> ), which, if my calculation is not wrong, should have cost about
> 1.2 to 1.8 times the cost of an equivalent PC, then, I hope that
> the SMEs which employs the low-price-point POS terminals may lower
> their prices to their consumers, which, I think, is one of the
> original principle of open-source movement - to benefit the world
> at large.

Again, keep in mind that any costs of customization have to be 
spread across the number of POS terminals.  A trivial sysetem for a 
simple sole proprietership could be done very simply, but would 
still take 4-6 staff-weeks to integrate into the other systems.  
Unfortunately, the price might only be spread across 1 cash 
register.

A larger franchise might make it possible to spread the cost across 
more cash registers, but since there are more systems to integrate 
with, and more standards to comply with, the cost will be quite a 
bit higher.

In each case, the vendor would want you to provide service, and to 
be able to fix the system very quickly if there was a problem.
After all, if your "cash register" stops working, he's out of 
business.  This can be a big problem if the store is open all day 
and all night.  You could be expected to come in anytime from when 
the store opens, to a few hours after it closes.  And routine 
maintenance (back-ups, audits, updates), are also done - often 
after midnight.

These are some of the reasons why POS terminals seem more 
expensive.  Open Source software can help, and can certainly 
expidite the solution, but the cost of the PC is only about 10% of 
the total cost of a POS System.


> So, if anyone has info on any open-sourced POS system and/or
> inventory control program, please tell me.
> 
> Thank you !
> 
> Sincerely,
> Lee

-- 
Rex Ballard
Enterprise/B2B IT Architect
Visionary for the Linux community
http://www.open4success.com/

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Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 16:22:28 GMT
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.misc, comp.terminals,
    comp.os.linux.development.apps
Message-ID: <3d68f8e0.55973925@news.verizon.net>
References: <cee672a2.0208161601.1b61244@posting.google.com>
    <ak293f$m8n$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
    <cee672a2.0208240734.61a54e9d@posting.google.com>
From: Jim Turner <j.merlin@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for Electronic Point Of Sale and Inventory Control System

On 24 Aug 2002 08:34:51 -0700, apexx@softhome.net (***) wrote:
>
>Thanks Rex, for the leg up in the field of EPoS and stuffs.
>
>I was compelled to write the original message when I saw an ad for a
>(non-customized version of) POS system, which actually is a Celeron
>based PC with one cash drawer, and one 6-inch monochrome monitor. The
>thing is priced for 8 times the cost of that Celeron based PC.
>
>And I said to myself, enough _is_ enough.
>
>The way I see it, such a device should cost _more_ than the regular
>PC, but it shouldn't cost as much as 8 times ! And since there's a
>Open-source movement going on, I wonder if there are some open-sourced
>EPoS (and related) projects from which I may "borrow" (and of course I
>haven't forget the "pay back later" clause) to lower the price of PoS
>systems.
>
>Rex Ballard <rballard@open4success.com> wrote in message
news:<ak293f$m8n$1@bob.news.rcn.net>...
>> *** wrote:
>> ...

Hi Rex

Look at the POS market, and you will find that the cost of the
software at the register for a small store is not the biggest expense.
There are a number of factors.

1. POS software is now available from companies like Intuit.
   Quickbooks POS is about $500. Runs on standard PCs. It is also sold
   with a bundle of cash drawer, barcode reader, credit card reader, and
   reciept printer. It comes with some online/telephone support.

2. DOS based software for POS is available cheaply (there is even one
   free package out there if you use it on a single register). You are
   pretty much on your own there.

3. The biggest need for POS is support. 

   In a small store, this can be the biggest expense. They don't have
   time to learn much about the software, and they will normally not be
   very computer literate, and their help will normally be minimum wage.
   They need major help setting up the system, entering data, and
   inventory, and they need someone to call when the system acts up and
   they can't make sales. 

The software needs to be simple in the user interface. The cash register
functions need to be fast and not get in the way. There is also the back
office function. A computer POS is no good if it can't handle inventory,
keep records, handle price changes intelligently and easily, generate
reports, etc.. And it has to do it reliably, 24/7. A good POS system
also takes very good care of the stores data. Redundancy of the data and
backups are critical. 

I have installed and setup some POS systems for a company. The cost per
lane (register) in a convenience store was about $8000, plus another
$2500 for the back office computer and software. 3 lanes total cost was
$26500, which I am told is a very good price. Cost of software was about
$3500 which included setup and conversion of a database from a supplier
for all the stores inventory, which gave them prices and item
descriptions the day it was installed. The price also included tech
support for a year. Tech support for the next year was $1500. The cost
of the software was not the biggest expense, and is not a place to cut
corners.

So where does Linux and Open Source fit in here? Linux can be a good
platform for POS systems. There are major companies now selling a Linux
version of their POS software. The registers can be very minimal. Some
of the POS bundles have been Unix for years, and they are moving to
Linux for a number of reasons. You may have Linux in the store and not
even know it. Large companies, like Burlington Coat Factory are already
there for example. Others include

    http://www.viewtouch.com/poshome.html
    http://www.linuxdevel.com/opckout.php
    http://www.bananahead.com/pos/index.html (a free project)

For the small stores, there are pieces missing. You need a good
accounting system for the POS to hook into. Linux is weak there, right
now, so a computer running something like Peachtree or Quickbooks will
probably be required. You need support, and lots of it, for a real world
POS product. Which means a company with expertise available as needed.

Even with a free POS package, setup and support will be a major expense. 

JT

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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy, comp.os.linux.misc, comp.terminals,
    comp.os.linux.development.apps
Message-ID: <3d69fae8.122020217@news.verizon.net>
References: <cee672a2.0208161601.1b61244@posting.google.com>
    <ak293f$m8n$1@bob.news.rcn.net>
    <cee672a2.0208240734.61a54e9d@posting.google.com>
    <3d68f8e0.55973925@news.verizon.net> <87elcm3kej.fsf@toncho.dhh.gt.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:00:15 GMT
From: Jim Turner <j.merlin@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for Electronic Point Of Sale and Inventory Control System

On Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:42:12 GMT, John Hasler <john@dhh.gt.org> wrote:
>
>Jim Turner writes:
>>
>> You need support, and lots of it, for a real world POS product. Which
>> means a company with expertise available as needed. Even with a free POS
>> package, setup and support will be a major expense.
>
>The POS should be a good application fro Free Software, since the price of
>the software is not a major source of revenue.
>-- 
>John Hasler
>john@dhh.gt.org
>Dancing Horse Hill
>Elmwood, Wisconsin

It is not a major part of the cost of a POS by itself. It is a major
source of revenue for companies that write POS software, and it is
used by POS sellers to lock you in to their systems. And writing a
useable POS system is also not a very interesting or fun project. 

Open source tools will make their way into POS systems. It has already
started. It will just take some time. 

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